1 2013-06-12 00:00:01 <[7]> alejandro888: what's the end goal, and what kind of miner technology?
   2 2013-06-12 00:00:09 <phantomcircuit> sipa, but yes proper watch wallets would porbably help here
   3 2013-06-12 00:00:12 <phantomcircuit> anyways my point is
   4 2013-06-12 00:00:42 <phantomcircuit> this is relatively easily solved by a simple rpc call for most use cases (whether they be done correctly or poorly the rpc call doesn't change that)
   5 2013-06-12 00:00:58 <sipa> an rpc call that does what?
   6 2013-06-12 00:01:24 <alejandro888> my purpose is to build a facebook app, that works as a miner.
   7 2013-06-12 00:01:39 <funky> hehe
   8 2013-06-12 00:01:50 <funky> in game mining also nice
   9 2013-06-12 00:02:01 <[7]> alejandro888: no comment on that...
  10 2013-06-12 00:02:23 <alejandro888> not in game mining, Bit coin miner app with rankings between friends and community
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  12 2013-06-12 00:02:38 <sipa> what hardware does the mining?
  13 2013-06-12 00:03:35 <saivann> FYI, bitcoin.org is down, and it looks like a server outage on github, or a change in their DNS. I'm emailing them and sirius.
  14 2013-06-12 00:03:35 <alejandro888> is agains the rules, to build such application?
  15 2013-06-12 00:03:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah just needs some horrible hacks for address -> tx outs lookup
  16 2013-06-12 00:04:13 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'm completely opposed to non-wallet address->tx indexing in bitcoind
  17 2013-06-12 00:04:21 <[7]> alejandro888: that's something that you should ask facebook, not us... anyway, I doubt it will be worth it
  18 2013-06-12 00:04:24 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i know
  19 2013-06-12 00:04:26 <sipa> phantomcircuit: and certainly for such purposes
  20 2013-06-12 00:04:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what if it was named
  21 2013-06-12 00:04:41 <funky> help your friend to feed his 100 pigs in fb farm - comes large screen 1% readt 2% ready
  22 2013-06-12 00:04:45 <phantomcircuit> "dontusethisnoseriouslystahp"
  23 2013-06-12 00:04:53 <[7]> alejandro888: from an ethics point of view i'd say it's OK as long as the user is aware that he is mining and what the implications are
  24 2013-06-12 00:04:55 <funky> opps pls buy new gpu to really feed those pigs
  25 2013-06-12 00:04:55 <funky> :D
  26 2013-06-12 00:05:21 <sipa> phantomcircuit: please
  27 2013-06-12 00:05:24 <alejandro888> Yeah, i am not trying to scam people they will be aware of their mining
  28 2013-06-12 00:05:53 <sipa> alejandro888: it's mostly against the rules of common sense if you want to make money, but apart from that, i don't really care :)
  29 2013-06-12 00:06:35 <[7]> it mostly boils down to this question: <sipa> what hardware does the mining?
  30 2013-06-12 00:06:45 <jchp> what's the functional difference between the RPC call and just using the watch only wallet pull (assuming it can get decent performance)? why not just use that assuming it gets included in bitcoind in the future?
  31 2013-06-12 00:06:59 <sipa> jchp: indeed
  32 2013-06-12 00:07:13 <[7]> unless people have specialized bitcoin hardware, it's unlikely that the system would make a profit overall if you take the electricity cost etc. into account
  33 2013-06-12 00:07:27 <jchp> if i'm understanding it correctly, the primary unknowns are performance and support in the future (currently this is far too unknown for me to consider it)
  34 2013-06-12 00:07:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, im tempted to write a patch and then start a campaign about the developers being nazis for not including it
  35 2013-06-12 00:07:58 <phantomcircuit> just for the irony
  36 2013-06-12 00:08:24 <[7]> phantomcircuit: go found a fork and call it phantomcoin? ;)
  37 2013-06-12 00:08:26 <nsh> irony is a weapon in the hands of the receiver
  38 2013-06-12 00:08:49 <alejandro888> Its profitable to build a mining rig with the actual difficulty>
  39 2013-06-12 00:08:55 <phantomcircuit> [7], names taken
  40 2013-06-12 00:09:04 <ll> can anyone point me to a site that details what the log output means?
  41 2013-06-12 00:09:24 <sipa> ll: just ask here, or check the source code :)
  42 2013-06-12 00:09:59 <[7]> alejandro888: only if you have certain models of AMD graphics cards and an overall energy-optimized system. most facebook users' systems won't meet those requirements.
  43 2013-06-12 00:10:10 <alejandro888> I have been thinking about it for 4 months already, and i dont know if i should invest in hardware building a rig, or wait for butterfly labs to release their products.. If its not a scam
  44 2013-06-12 00:10:29 <sipa> alejandro888: i have two BFL jalapeno's in front of me
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  47 2013-06-12 00:11:12 <ll> thx, not sure id understand from the src so ill throw em out starting with Added 1 addresses from xx.xx.xx.xx: 423 tried, 13135 new
  48 2013-06-12 00:11:37 <sipa> ll: ok, so xx.xx.xx.xx announces an IP address which your node didn't know about, so it stored it
  49 2013-06-12 00:11:56 <alejandro888> in my country the energy is very cheap! i can also use a gas generator that works even cheaper because the gas its like free here!
  50 2013-06-12 00:12:02 <sipa> ll: and in its database are now 423 address it already connected to at least once, and 13135 never tried ones
  51 2013-06-12 00:12:04 <funky> i can give you nice girls phones and facebook if you help me to code some simple lightweight check any address balance client
  52 2013-06-12 00:12:04 <funky> :D
  53 2013-06-12 00:12:06 <funky> hehe
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  55 2013-06-12 00:12:11 <ll> ok cool
  56 2013-06-12 00:12:14 <[7]> alejandro888: does that also apply to most of your potential user base?
  57 2013-06-12 00:12:15 <hehe> Come check it out. http://mrbitcoinsmining.com/
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  61 2013-06-12 00:12:27 <sipa> funky: go use electrum then; it's exactly that
  62 2013-06-12 00:12:29 <alejandro888> so at this moment you are mining at 10GH/S? whats your profit daily?
  63 2013-06-12 00:13:10 <[7]> ~0.3 BTC/day at 10GH/s
  64 2013-06-12 00:13:17 <sipa> ;;genrate 10000
  65 2013-06-12 00:13:18 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 15605632.6813, is 0.322259614014 BTC per day and 0.0134274839172 BTC per hour.
  66 2013-06-12 00:13:37 <ll> what about CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted f298e9ac24 (poolsz 1889), a transaction and the # of unconfirmed transactions?
  67 2013-06-12 00:13:52 <sipa> ll: indeed
  68 2013-06-12 00:14:20 <sipa> f298... is (the beginning of) a txid, and 1889 is the number of verified transactions in the memory pool
  69 2013-06-12 00:14:39 <[7]> or, more exactly, the # of unconfirmed transactions that qualify for being put into the next block, after various kinds of filtering, right?
  70 2013-06-12 00:14:48 <sipa> not necessarily
  71 2013-06-12 00:15:11 <alejandro888> Should I buy form butterfly labs ? I have heard that many people didn't receive their order
  72 2013-06-12 00:15:12 <sipa> just valid candidate transactions; some may not be acceptable for entering in a block
  73 2013-06-12 00:15:32 <[7]> sipa: also ones that don't pass e.g. those new dust limits?
  74 2013-06-12 00:15:41 <alejandro888> how long did it took for your order to ship sipa?
  75 2013-06-12 00:15:43 <sipa> [7]: that check is done before entering the pool
  76 2013-06-12 00:15:46 <sipa> alejandro888: 11 months
  77 2013-06-12 00:15:56 <[7]> ok, so it's something in between...
  78 2013-06-12 00:16:59 <sipa> [7]: well the most obvious one is the block size
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  80 2013-06-12 00:17:20 <sipa> [7]: the sum of the sizes of transactions in the mempool can be larger than the size of a block permits
  81 2013-06-12 00:17:23 <sipa> or the sigops limit
  82 2013-06-12 00:17:30 <alejandro888> Building a mining rig, whats my best option in GPU?
  83 2013-06-12 00:17:49 <[7]> sipa: so it's rather "transactions qualifying for future blocks"
  84 2013-06-12 00:17:57 <ll> alright, finally what is: received getdata for: tx f298e9ac24  in relation to that earlier accept
  85 2013-06-12 00:18:07 <[7]> i.e. things that might potentially get mined by the node at some point
  86 2013-06-12 00:18:12 <sipa> ll: that means a peer requested that tx from you
  87 2013-06-12 00:19:51 <ll> thanks sipa
  88 2013-06-12 00:20:01 <phantomcircuit> ll, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
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 109 2013-06-12 00:50:09 <saivann> bitcoin.org is back on its feets, it was most probably a github outage
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 111 2013-06-12 00:52:15 <Luke-Jr> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/11595/942
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 176 2013-06-12 02:55:08 <undecim> I'm interested in creating a synchronized decentralized database (like bitcoin), and think that an alternative block chain (like NameCoin) is the way to go, but I'm having a little trouble understanding the technical aspects of it...
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 179 2013-06-12 02:57:02 <undecim> So using namecoin as an example... There is a deterministic set of rules dictating what is a valid database transaction. And for a transaction to be valid, its hash to be included in a bitcoin transaction?
 180 2013-06-12 02:57:30 <undecim> Doesn't that require a transaction fee?
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 186 2013-06-12 03:02:37 <Luke-Jr> undecim: Namecoin was implemented independent of Bitcoin entirely, though you could potentially do that
 187 2013-06-12 03:02:49 <Luke-Jr> undecim: and yes, any system will need some kind of anti-spam measure
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 192 2013-06-12 03:08:24 <undecim> I'm just trying to get my head around how you can do POW for two different sets of data without doing double the work
 193 2013-06-12 03:08:57 <Luke-Jr> merkle trees
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 195 2013-06-12 03:09:26 <gmaxwell> undecim: I offer you a question as an answer: how does the POW cover second byte of a transaction as well as the first without double the effort?
 196 2013-06-12 03:09:46 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: instruction parallelism?
 197 2013-06-12 03:10:25 <undecim> gmaxwell: Well each byte is part of the same hash operation. You can't get that hash unless you include EVERY bit used in the hash
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 201 2013-06-12 03:10:51 <gmaxwell> undecim: right.
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 273 2013-06-12 05:00:47 <zw> the kitco gold live mobile app has bitcoin prices from mtgox exchange listed under oil & indices as GOX, yeah it's promoting the exchange but seems catchy
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 503 2013-06-12 12:03:11 <warren> TheUni: btw, make still doesn't take advantage of multiple cores
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 514 2013-06-12 12:08:08 <tumak_> warren: -j works for me
 515 2013-06-12 12:08:26 <warren> tumak_: talking about his repo for gitian
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 517 2013-06-12 12:08:35 ne0futur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 518 2013-06-12 12:08:36 <tumak_> ah
 519 2013-06-12 12:09:08 <warren> heh.  irc.lfnet.net:  #bitcoin-dev     1       We've been slashdotted! Yay! | http://bitcoin.org/ - Bitcoin Development - We're here to help support the Bitcoin system and its use.
 520 2013-06-12 12:09:35 <tumak_> recorded history :)
 521 2013-06-12 12:09:44 <warren> that's still the topic there
 522 2013-06-12 12:09:49 <tumak_> yup
 523 2013-06-12 12:09:54 <warren> there's one person  in the channel
 524 2013-06-12 12:10:23 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 525 2013-06-12 12:10:32 <epscy> you?
 526 2013-06-12 12:10:48 <coingenuity> so, who's familiar with bitcoin's leveldb impl
 527 2013-06-12 12:10:52 <warren> "solar"
 528 2013-06-12 12:11:25 <tumak_> warren: 13:47 -!- Channel #bitcoin-dev created Fri Jun 18 16:41:08 2010
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 530 2013-06-12 12:11:43 <tumak_> recorded history :)
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 535 2013-06-12 12:12:24 <sipa> coingenuity: i guess i qualify
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 538 2013-06-12 12:13:26 <tumak_> grau: just a bit taunting (repeating stuff somebody already repeated on forums is actually quite common). follow the context wrt 'first rule of bitcoin-dev'
 539 2013-06-12 12:14:00 <epscy> sipa: how feasible would it be to write a SQL query interface to the leveldb blockchain?, is it possible to do with reasonable performance?
 540 2013-06-12 12:14:03 <coingenuity> sipa: you qualify a lot, actually :D
 541 2013-06-12 12:14:17 <coingenuity> sipa: so i'm looking at the /chainstate dir's leveldb
 542 2013-06-12 12:14:24 <coingenuity> can't figure out what data is encoded in
 543 2013-06-12 12:14:32 <coingenuity> any idear?
 544 2013-06-12 12:14:33 <sipa> coingenuity: the unspent transaction output set
 545 2013-06-12 12:14:45 <sipa> epscy: leveldb is a key-value store, not an sql database
 546 2013-06-12 12:14:57 <coingenuity> i mean, i dont know what character encoding it's using
 547 2013-06-12 12:15:01 <epscy> sipa: yes i know
 548 2013-06-12 12:15:17 <sipa> coingenuity: there is no text in it, there is no character encoding
 549 2013-06-12 12:16:11 <epscy> sipa: i'm wondering if it is possible to do that kind of querying in place (without modifying or extracting the data), with reasonable performance
 550 2013-06-12 12:16:35 <sipa> epscy: what kind of query?
 551 2013-06-12 12:16:48 <sipa> epscy: there is the gettxout RPC that allows you to query the chainstate
 552 2013-06-12 12:16:48 <coingenuity> when you say output set, what kind of data is that?
 553 2013-06-12 12:16:53 <epscy> sipa: the kinds blockchain.info does
 554 2013-06-12 12:17:02 BeeDeePee has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 555 2013-06-12 12:17:11 <sipa> epscy: it's not indexed, only direct lookups of a given txid are possible
 556 2013-06-12 12:17:14 <epscy> sipa: i have an address, find me all transactions that the address was involved in
 557 2013-06-12 12:17:15 <sipa> coingenuity: transaction outputs
 558 2013-06-12 12:17:19 <sipa> epscy: NAK
 559 2013-06-12 12:17:27 <epscy> sipa: ok, as i thought
 560 2013-06-12 12:17:37 <epscy> thanks
 561 2013-06-12 12:18:37 <epscy> sipa: so theoretically, could you build a separate index and use that?, or at this point are you better off just extracting the data?
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 563 2013-06-12 12:18:53 <sipa> epscy: first of all, are you talking about the blockchain or the utxo set?
 564 2013-06-12 12:18:58 <epscy> blockchain
 565 2013-06-12 12:19:33 <sipa> well we have no blockchain index whatsoever, except for the block position on disk for each block
 566 2013-06-12 12:20:04 <sipa> unless you enable -txindex=1, in which case also the disk position for each individual tx is present
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 568 2013-06-12 12:20:37 <sipa> epscy: imho, any application that relies on having a full address-to-txid index, is broken
 569 2013-06-12 12:20:44 <sipa> epscy: though it's very useful for debugging :)
 570 2013-06-12 12:20:50 <epscy> right so basically to do what i want i would need to add another index
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 572 2013-06-12 12:22:05 <epscy> i realise the data is all in a format that is most efficient for the bitcoin client, I am just interested in leveraging it for blockchain analysis
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 575 2013-06-12 12:22:22 <epscy> and trying to work out how possible that is
 576 2013-06-12 12:22:27 <coingenuity> epscy: same
 577 2013-06-12 12:22:30 <sipa> i once made a patch that added an address-to-txid index, but i didn't like the implementation
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 579 2013-06-12 12:22:46 <sipa> and i'm not convinced it belongs in bitcoind anyway
 580 2013-06-12 12:22:52 <epscy> sipa: oh i agree
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 585 2013-06-12 12:23:14 <epscy> i'm trying to work out if i could write something external, that operates on the data
 586 2013-06-12 12:23:25 <sipa> using RPC it would be extremely slow
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 590 2013-06-12 12:23:30 <sipa> ask phantomcircuit :p
 591 2013-06-12 12:23:45 <epscy> well i was thinking it would read the leveldb files
 592 2013-06-12 12:23:59 <epscy> would read only access interfere with the client?
 593 2013-06-12 12:24:02 <sipa> the leveldb files don't contain any information you want
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 595 2013-06-12 12:24:11 <epscy> oh
 596 2013-06-12 12:24:22 <epscy> where are the blocks stored?
 597 2013-06-12 12:24:30 <epscy> blocks and transactions
 598 2013-06-12 12:24:31 <sipa> in the blocks/blk*.dat files
 599 2013-06-12 12:24:36 <sipa> unindexed
 600 2013-06-12 12:24:40 <epscy> i see
 601 2013-06-12 12:24:49 <epscy> again thanks for your help
 602 2013-06-12 12:24:54 <sipa> you can parse those just fine; armory does that, for example
 603 2013-06-12 12:24:57 <sipa> they're append-only
 604 2013-06-12 12:25:38 <sipa> coingenuity: i still don't know what you want to know
 605 2013-06-12 12:26:10 <sipa> coingenuity: the chainstate database contains for each txid which is not yet completely spent, all unspent output and a tiny bit of transaction metadata
 606 2013-06-12 12:26:31 <sipa> coingenuity: in a custom designed efficient format
 607 2013-06-12 12:26:43 <coingenuity> well, i understand what that format is, basically :X
 608 2013-06-12 12:26:50 <coingenuity> er, am trying to*
 609 2013-06-12 12:27:04 <sipa> you mean the format of the values?
 610 2013-06-12 12:27:13 <coingenuity> it just looks like junk data when i iterate through the db itself
 611 2013-06-12 12:27:26 <sipa> coingenuity: sec
 612 2013-06-12 12:27:26 <coingenuity> i could paste some here but i dont want to make everyone vomit :D
 613 2013-06-12 12:27:39 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/core.h#L425
 614 2013-06-12 12:28:09 <tumak_> epscy: why not use -txindex?
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 616 2013-06-12 12:28:38 <sipa> tumak_: that still only given you a txid-based index, not an address-based one
 617 2013-06-12 12:29:06 <coingenuity> sipa: yeah, it doesn't look like ASCII as it does in the examples
 618 2013-06-12 12:29:12 <grau> epscy: I have API to query leveldb by address
 619 2013-06-12 12:29:13 <sipa> coingenuity: ascii???
 620 2013-06-12 12:29:24 <sipa> coingenuity: the examples show the data in hex
 621 2013-06-12 12:29:31 <sipa> coingenuity: on disk it's binary of course
 622 2013-06-12 12:29:38 <tumak_> sipa: oic
 623 2013-06-12 12:30:19 <tumak_> was curious how electrum-server does it, external index?
 624 2013-06-12 12:30:36 <coingenuity> ah, that helps clear things up a bit, ty
 625 2013-06-12 12:30:38 <sipa> i think so, yes
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 628 2013-06-12 12:32:30 <epscy> grau: i'm interested in the whole blockchain
 629 2013-06-12 12:32:36 <jgarzik> word
 630 2013-06-12 12:32:46 <grau> epscy: thats what i have
 631 2013-06-12 12:33:03 <coingenuity> ah, beautiful
 632 2013-06-12 12:33:05 <epscy> grau: is it on github?
 633 2013-06-12 12:33:06 <grau> the full blockchain in leveldb queriable by andy data element in scripts
 634 2013-06-12 12:33:13 <coingenuity> thats great sipa
 635 2013-06-12 12:33:16 <sipa> grau: how large is that?
 636 2013-06-12 12:33:18 <coingenuity> i seem to have some output from leveldb now
 637 2013-06-12 12:33:20 <coingenuity> :)
 638 2013-06-12 12:33:23 <grau> 11.8GB
 639 2013-06-12 12:33:31 <sipa> that's quite good
 640 2013-06-12 12:33:52 <epscy> grau: interesting
 641 2013-06-12 12:34:06 <grau> https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode
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 643 2013-06-12 12:35:23 <epscy> grau: thanks, i will take a look later
 644 2013-06-12 12:36:07 <grau> You can query my servers without the hassle to set up yours if thats your preference
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 648 2013-06-12 12:42:55 <tumak_> grau: do you actually evaluate prevtx stack result or just look for op_dup op_hash 160 pubkeyhash sequence?
 649 2013-06-12 12:43:28 <tumak_> (proper adress-tx mapping implies full script chain verify)
 650 2013-06-12 12:44:15 <grau> the query is more generic. Not by address but by any data element in script. That might be key or script hash or address or....
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 653 2013-06-12 12:45:01 <tumak_> ah
 654 2013-06-12 12:45:08 <tumak_> so you index script contents
 655 2013-06-12 12:45:20 <grau> it is also more of a scan than a query since it optionally picks up not only tx matching the criteria but tx spending a tx that matches the criteria
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 657 2013-06-12 12:46:11 <grau> it is an optimized query to get series of transactions in single pass that have some property and build on each other.
 658 2013-06-12 12:47:08 <grau> since the most relevant use case for such a query is to figure a balance for an address that requires not only spends to the address but tx spending those.
 659 2013-06-12 12:48:30 <grau> feel free to repeat whatever I said, I wont call it plagiarism
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 662 2013-06-12 12:52:23 <grau> tha scan is however supported by probabilistic indices (bloom filter)
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 666 2013-06-12 12:55:45 <sipa> grau: then what is stored in leveldb?
 667 2013-06-12 12:55:57 <grau> everything
 668 2013-06-12 12:56:15 <grau> key is tx or block hash (with an added byte)
 669 2013-06-12 12:56:40 <grau> value is serialized in protobuf format
 670 2013-06-12 12:56:55 <grau> tx a tx serialization
 671 2013-06-12 12:56:57 <sipa> and for blocks, you list the txids?
 672 2013-06-12 12:57:21 <grau> block is block header + tx hash list + bloom filter computed out of script data
 673 2013-06-12 12:57:29 <sipa> ic!
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 675 2013-06-12 12:58:48 <grau> I keep the bloom filter in mem for queries and parse positive blocks to evaluate match
 676 2013-06-12 13:03:39 <tumak_> grau: so if i need to query from set of 100M addresses, i need to keep ~5MB bloom filter for each block (just for pubkeyhash)?
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 678 2013-06-12 13:04:01 <tumak_> (not very space efficient, but the generalism of this solution is neat)
 679 2013-06-12 13:04:23 <grau> no, there is a bloom filter per block that helps you to determine if the block contains a transaction you care
 680 2013-06-12 13:04:53 <grau> a single filter is <32kb usually much less
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 682 2013-06-12 13:05:53 <tumak_> ah, i see
 683 2013-06-12 13:06:02 <tumak_> so when i have hash160 and i want to get all txes in a block matching it
 684 2013-06-12 13:06:15 <tumak_> i have to query all the blocks, because the hash function cannot be stable, hmm
 685 2013-06-12 13:06:48 <grau> you have to query the filter of all blocks to figure which blocks contain a tx you care
 686 2013-06-12 13:07:14 <grau> those queries hoewver are all in memory
 687 2013-06-12 13:07:22 <tumak_> yup
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 689 2013-06-12 13:07:38 <grau> and can be furthe roprimized since you ask the same hash from all of them
 690 2013-06-12 13:07:53 <tumak_> still not convinced this is faster than old fashioned hash index (which can be in memory as well)
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 692 2013-06-12 13:08:22 <grau> A hash index on what?
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 695 2013-06-12 13:09:36 <tumak_> take last 20 bits and use it as offset to skiplist
 696 2013-06-12 13:09:45 <tumak_> (once again, highly specialized db)
 697 2013-06-12 13:10:02 <tumak_> but bit-exact, i imagine bloom filter could be quite efficient assuming you mantain reasonable fanout
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 700 2013-06-12 13:12:11 <grau> Since there are tens of millions of data elements, you can not build an exact index, but some sort of hash map
 701 2013-06-12 13:13:01 <grau> the block itself is already a skip list of transactions and my filter just identify where to look into
 702 2013-06-12 13:14:03 <tumak_> grau: you just add a bit when collision happens :)
 703 2013-06-12 13:14:08 <tumak_> thats how you do append-only indexes
 704 2013-06-12 13:14:27 <grau> the other reason is that you do not really need random access but a supported scan
 705 2013-06-12 13:14:30 <tumak_> abusing blockchain itself is neat, though i'm worried about trashing
 706 2013-06-12 13:15:05 <tumak_> uh, supported scan?
 707 2013-06-12 13:15:13 <tumak_> the bloom filter just points at random places
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 709 2013-06-12 13:15:16 <grau> imagine you locate a transaction that sends to an address, now you would want to find the next tx spending it
 710 2013-06-12 13:15:25 <tumak_> and you have to check half of them on average
 711 2013-06-12 13:15:26 <grau> it is inefficient to look for that behind the first
 712 2013-06-12 13:15:28 <tumak_> i guess thats not linear at all
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 714 2013-06-12 13:15:29 <tumak_> :)
 715 2013-06-12 13:15:39 <tumak_> (as far as disk is concerned)
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 717 2013-06-12 13:17:05 <tumak_> grau: you can query only single branch of btree as well :)
 718 2013-06-12 13:17:17 <grau> the filter identifies about 10 out of 240,000 blocks for an address.
 719 2013-06-12 13:17:21 <tumak_> needless to say i'll give your code a try, i'm fairly impressed
 720 2013-06-12 13:17:35 <grau> I think you do not get what the use case is
 721 2013-06-12 13:17:56 <tumak_> grau: when i put 1dice address there
 722 2013-06-12 13:17:59 <grau> Usually you look for a transaction sequence
 723 2013-06-12 13:18:01 <tumak_> i must get all blocks
 724 2013-06-12 13:18:16 <tumak_> since early 2012 or so
 725 2013-06-12 13:18:16 <tumak_> :)
 726 2013-06-12 13:18:20 <tubby2> Hello, can anyone help me with a BitcoinX question http://pastebin.com/7ZDKsZQF ?
 727 2013-06-12 13:18:38 <grau> yes you get all blocks for 1dice since it started
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 729 2013-06-12 13:18:58 <grau> that would be similarly edge case for any other type of index
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 732 2013-06-12 13:19:36 <grau> the point is that you usually look for the first tx matching a criteria then txs that use that output and so on.
 733 2013-06-12 13:19:51 <grau> so queries are rather scans then random access
 734 2013-06-12 13:20:10 <grau> filter supported scans
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 738 2013-06-12 13:26:20 <tubby2> I am currently testing BitoinX (Armory with color definitions). If I didn't get it wrong, nothing prevents me from creating a color definition with a genesis transaction not related at all to me. Is this a desired feature?
 739 2013-06-12 13:26:20 <tubby2> Maybe the colors' id should be signed by the account that collected the inputs?
 740 2013-06-12 13:27:25 <tubby2> account(s)*
 741 2013-06-12 13:28:51 <nsh> grau, what is the effect of false positives from the bloom filter on your queries? are they just discarded?
 742 2013-06-12 13:29:18 <nsh> (so, efficiency loss, but no accuracy loss)
 743 2013-06-12 13:29:31 <grau> nsh: yes, its efficiency loss
 744 2013-06-12 13:29:35 <nsh> ok
 745 2013-06-12 13:30:05 <nsh> ty
 746 2013-06-12 13:30:22 <tumak_> tubby2: the trick is, nobody should install rogue colordefs :)
 747 2013-06-12 13:31:51 <tumak_> because you could also create one with same name, the hash of issue is identity of issuer, not genesis
 748 2013-06-12 13:33:26 <tubby2> Can't a malicious user create a definition to tamper with another one? Doesn't the color id involve a hashing of all its values (including genesis transaction)?
 749 2013-06-12 13:33:36 <tumak_> yup
 750 2013-06-12 13:34:09 <tumak_> simply use colordefs you trust and only those
 751 2013-06-12 13:34:27 <tumak_> they can be alternatively signed by key
 752 2013-06-12 13:34:41 <tumak_> and then you just trust the key, simplyfying the trust management
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 793 2013-06-12 14:29:36 <jgarzik> CheckForkWarningConditionsOnNewFork()
 794 2013-06-12 14:29:40 * jgarzik looks at BlueMatt 
 795 2013-06-12 14:29:41 da2ce7-mobile has joined
 796 2013-06-12 14:29:50 <BlueMatt> wat?
 797 2013-06-12 14:29:54 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 798 2013-06-12 14:30:08 * BlueMatt has been writing too much java...it shows
 799 2013-06-12 14:30:20 <jgarzik> ThatSureIsALongFunctionNameItsAlmostASentence
 800 2013-06-12 14:30:23 <jgarzik> :)
 801 2013-06-12 14:30:36 <sipa> just add an AbstractFactorySingletonVisitorAdapter
 802 2013-06-12 14:30:42 <tumak_> i think it's time bitcoin switches to check_for_warning_conditions_on_new_fork()
 803 2013-06-12 14:30:54 <BlueMatt> youre missing a k
 804 2013-06-12 14:31:32 <tumak_> CamelCaseIncreasedIdentifierLengthRelation
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 806 2013-06-12 14:31:49 <tumak_> BlueMatt: btw, should it be checkForWarning?
 807 2013-06-12 14:31:59 <BlueMatt> not in bitcoin
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 809 2013-06-12 14:32:09 <tumak_> ah
 810 2013-06-12 14:32:16 <BlueMatt> our coding standards are straight out of the 90s
 811 2013-06-12 14:32:20 <BlueMatt> well...maybe 80s
 812 2013-06-12 14:32:21 <sipa> MethodsAreLikeThis, CClassesAreLikeThink strVariablesAreLikeThis
 813 2013-06-12 14:32:22 <TD> sipa: if you want a laugh do an internal code search for .*FactoryFactory.*
 814 2013-06-12 14:33:00 <sipa> TD: i expected worse :D
 815 2013-06-12 14:33:02 <tumak_> sipa: oh i see, there is that lovely C in front of case, instead of capital
 816 2013-06-12 14:33:09 <tumak_> s/case/class/
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 822 2013-06-12 14:37:35 <jgarzik> it's not CamelCase
 823 2013-06-12 14:37:39 <jgarzik> it's StudlyCaps
 824 2013-06-12 14:37:58 <sipa> TD: WrapperWrapper is also fun
 825 2013-06-12 14:38:17 <TD> lol
 826 2013-06-12 14:38:53 <TD> also works for AdapterAdapter
 827 2013-06-12 14:38:55 <BlueMatt> RapperInfoStorageFactoryFactoryFactoryWrapper
 828 2013-06-12 14:39:12 <TD> although in fairness there is only one adapteradapter
 829 2013-06-12 14:39:28 <tumak_> i thought CamelCase was invented by case insensitive languages, like pascal
 830 2013-06-12 14:39:30 <tumak_> it was great there
 831 2013-06-12 14:39:49 <tumak_> everything went avry when people got it wrong in c++ and java :(
 832 2013-06-12 14:40:08 <tumak_> s/av/aw/
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 834 2013-06-12 14:41:17 <sipa> (Wrapper|Adapter|Factory|Singleton|Visitor){3}
 835 2013-06-12 14:42:24 <TD> hahaha
 836 2013-06-12 14:42:26 <TD> good one
 837 2013-06-12 14:42:49 <TD> i like the TreeTableWrapperFactorySingleton
 838 2013-06-12 14:43:00 <jgarzik> heh
 839 2013-06-12 14:43:25 OPrime has joined
 840 2013-06-12 14:43:38 * jgarzik regenerates the blockchain torrent @ height 238000
 841 2013-06-12 14:43:55 <jgarzik> beyond the last checkpoint, but that's OK I think
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 843 2013-06-12 14:44:17 <BlueMatt> can you give me like an rss so I dont have to reset my seedbox when a new one comes out?
 844 2013-06-12 14:44:58 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, how would that work, ideally?
 845 2013-06-12 14:45:11 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, should be able to swap out old .torrent for new, and the existing file is just appended
 846 2013-06-12 14:45:13 <kjj> jgarzik: I was thinking about automating the torrents
 847 2013-06-12 14:45:35 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: for that to work, someone would have to write code to handle it
 848 2013-06-12 14:45:42 * BlueMatt nomiates jgarzik to be that someone
 849 2013-06-12 14:45:46 <jgarzik> heh
 850 2013-06-12 14:45:52 <jgarzik> kjj, cool
 851 2013-06-12 14:45:56 <jgarzik> automation good
 852 2013-06-12 14:46:20 <nsh> why isn't -logtimestamps default?
 853 2013-06-12 14:46:28 <kjj> jgarzik: if we pad the block files to the torrent piece size, we can replace the torrents without invalidating the old ones
 854 2013-06-12 14:46:50 <tumak_> wont report as "finished" though
 855 2013-06-12 14:46:50 <sipa> nsh: satoshi was concerned about privacy issues with that, if log files aren't well protected
 856 2013-06-12 14:46:56 <nsh> hmm
 857 2013-06-12 14:47:05 <nsh> i suppose
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 859 2013-06-12 14:47:07 <tumak_> kjj: how much to pad? 1gb 10gb?
 860 2013-06-12 14:47:24 <kjj> tumak_: to the piece size
 861 2013-06-12 14:47:31 <tumak_> huh?
 862 2013-06-12 14:47:33 <tumak_> i dont follow
 863 2013-06-12 14:47:44 <jgarzik> kjj, not sure I follow.  what is invalidated?  the current torrent setup works fine, with replacement.
 864 2013-06-12 14:47:51 <jgarzik> kjj, with no padding
 865 2013-06-12 14:47:58 <tumak_> yup, just redownload torrent
 866 2013-06-12 14:48:05 <tumak_> it catches up the previous file
 867 2013-06-12 14:48:09 <kjj> the hash of the final piece changes unless you pad it out to zero
 868 2013-06-12 14:48:34 <tumak_> not all clients support padding btw
 869 2013-06-12 14:48:52 <jgarzik> The announcement comes after a while of testing and PGP signing and whatnot, but,
 870 2013-06-12 14:48:59 <jgarzik> this is the updated torrent: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/bootstrap.dat.torrent
 871 2013-06-12 14:49:00 <kjj> you pad the block file.  if there are block parsers that can't handle padding, they fail and need to be fixed
 872 2013-06-12 14:49:17 <tumak_> i dont know what block file is
 873 2013-06-12 14:49:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, it was after satoshi
 874 2013-06-12 14:49:28 <tumak_> kjj: do you mean bootstrap.dat?
 875 2013-06-12 14:49:32 <jgarzik> kjj, why?
 876 2013-06-12 14:49:37 <kjj> tumak_: yes, the bootstrap.dat file
 877 2013-06-12 14:49:42 <tumak_> why to pad it?
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 879 2013-06-12 14:49:50 <jgarzik> Block files can of course be zero padded; bitcoind does this.
 880 2013-06-12 14:49:51 <tumak_> you need to republish the torrent anyway, since infohash changes :(
 881 2013-06-12 14:50:08 <kjj> so that each replacement torrent is a strict extension of the last
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 883 2013-06-12 14:50:21 <kjj> with the current replacement, the hash of the last piece changes
 884 2013-06-12 14:50:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: ?
 885 2013-06-12 14:50:28 <tumak_> jgarzik: frankly, using something like bootstrap1.dat, bootstrap2.dat etc would be probably for the best
 886 2013-06-12 14:50:37 <tumak_> jgarzik: saves the need for rehash
 887 2013-06-12 14:50:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: logtimestamps discussion happened A.S.
 888 2013-06-12 14:50:45 <sipa> how about blk00000.dat, blk00001.dat, ...?
 889 2013-06-12 14:50:50 <sipa> BlueMatt: sure
 890 2013-06-12 14:51:01 <tumak_> sipa: those are in wire format? :)
 891 2013-06-12 14:51:08 <sipa> tumak_: yes
 892 2013-06-12 14:51:16 <BlueMatt> <sipa> nsh: satoshi was concerned about privacy issues with that, if log files aren't well protected
 893 2013-06-12 14:51:24 <BlueMatt> no, satoshi wasnt, he was gone
 894 2013-06-12 14:51:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: but i thought the reason it wasn't there before was because satoshi was concerned about that
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 896 2013-06-12 14:51:38 <BlueMatt> well, I know gmaxwell and jgarzik were concerned about it
 897 2013-06-12 14:51:43 <jgarzik> kjj, Does not seem like a problem
 898 2013-06-12 14:51:44 <BlueMatt> or at least echoed satoshi's concern
 899 2013-06-12 14:51:49 <jgarzik> kjj, The info hash changes anyway
 900 2013-06-12 14:51:53 <sipa> BlueMatt: ah, ok
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 903 2013-06-12 14:53:05 <kjj> jgarzik: with padding, we can run every torrent off of the same single file on the hard drive
 904 2013-06-12 14:53:30 <jgarzik> RE torrent and multiple files:  doesn't work automatically.  Requires manual specification on command line, or in config file.  Becomes tedious: loadblock=blk0001.dat, loadblock=blk0002.dat, ...
 905 2013-06-12 14:54:01 <jgarzik> kjj, IMO it's ok that incentives exist to -not- run the older torrents
 906 2013-06-12 14:54:18 <jgarzik> it's an append-only dataset after all, so the current is always a superset
 907 2013-06-12 14:55:10 <kjj> people have different paranoia levels.  letting them pick where they want to start is probably a good thing
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 911 2013-06-12 14:56:23 <SomeoneWeird> anyone got a link handy (or a couple minutes) that explains how the leveldb metadata works?
 912 2013-06-12 14:56:24 <BlueMatt> the point of the torrent is you dont have to trust the provider of the torrent
 913 2013-06-12 14:56:31 <kjj> if I write scripts for this, I could easily have torrents available up to midnight last night.  people might not want that one, they may want the one from two weeks ago
 914 2013-06-12 14:56:42 <BlueMatt> why?
 915 2013-06-12 14:57:00 <kjj> BlueMatt: because some people are paranoid.  :)
 916 2013-06-12 14:57:13 <BlueMatt> my point is: there is no measurable difference in security
 917 2013-06-12 14:57:41 <BlueMatt> in fact, its probably more secure to "trust" the torrent because your trust is in something more trustworthy than $RANDOM_P2P_NODE
 918 2013-06-12 14:57:44 <kjj> but huge differences in unmeasurable differences in perceived security.  :(
 919 2013-06-12 14:58:04 <kjj> wow.  I really butchered that sentence.  let me try again
 920 2013-06-12 14:58:16 <kjj> but huge differences in unmeasurable perceived security.  :(
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 922 2013-06-12 14:59:52 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird, looking for bitcoin-specific metadata stored in leveldb, or the leveldb metadata itself, used for internal db workings?
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 924 2013-06-12 15:00:14 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird, for the former, it's mainly when we need to lookup a transaction id
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 926 2013-06-12 15:00:18 <SomeoneWeird> jgarzik, oh right, sorry, the data stored in leveldb for bitcoin
 927 2013-06-12 15:00:41 <SomeoneWeird> so it's just a reverse lookup?
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 930 2013-06-12 15:01:05 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird, it stores [roughly]   transaction id -> unspent transaction outputs, and some transaction metadata such as block height
 931 2013-06-12 15:01:32 robocoin has left ()
 932 2013-06-12 15:01:56 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird, transaction-id is the key, transaction information is the value, in the key-value pair stored
 933 2013-06-12 15:02:03 <jgarzik> so not a reverse lookup
 934 2013-06-12 15:02:09 aMB-[u] has quit ()
 935 2013-06-12 15:02:11 <SomeoneWeird> right
 936 2013-06-12 15:02:34 <SomeoneWeird> any docs about reading blk00000.dat? :P
 937 2013-06-12 15:03:00 <sipa> it's [network magic] [4-byte LE block length] [block]
 938 2013-06-12 15:03:03 <jgarzik> kjj, not worth the torrent constantly changing, IMO.  It is definitely a balance -- the more torrents, the fewer seeders on any one torrent
 939 2013-06-12 15:03:09 <sipa> lather, rinse, repeat
 940 2013-06-12 15:03:26 <jgarzik> kjj, right now the torrent should probably be updated more frequently, but certainly not every night.  Perhaps every 30 days.
 941 2013-06-12 15:03:49 <nsh> *28
 942 2013-06-12 15:04:01 <jgarzik> kjj, seeders ultimately key off the info hash, so special logic for sharing doesn't really help
 943 2013-06-12 15:04:16 robocoin_ has joined
 944 2013-06-12 15:04:34 <jgarzik> want to concentrate the power on a few torrents, rather than spread widely across many torrents.  Users will see greater download speeds, with fewer torrents.
 945 2013-06-12 15:05:06 <warren> TheUni: around?
 946 2013-06-12 15:05:07 michagogo has joined
 947 2013-06-12 15:05:16 * sipa votes: 24 days, 6 hours, 32 minutes, 32 seconds
 948 2013-06-12 15:05:47 <jgarzik> what is that?  3000 blocks?
 949 2013-06-12 15:05:53 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 950 2013-06-12 15:06:26 <sipa> 2^21 seconds
 951 2013-06-12 15:06:39 <nsh> <yoleaux> (24 days 6 hours 32 minutes 32 seconds)/(10 minutes): 3495
 952 2013-06-12 15:06:45 <kjj> jgarzik: we'll see how it works out.
 953 2013-06-12 15:06:46 <michagogo> Are the logs linked in the topic updated live?
 954 2013-06-12 15:06:52 jimmy2k has joined
 955 2013-06-12 15:07:05 <nsh> michagogo, there's probably a way to check that
 956 2013-06-12 15:07:06 <nsh> :)
 957 2013-06-12 15:07:22 <sipa> jgarzik: an integral multiple of (intended) blocks would be a multiple of 10 minutes :)
 958 2013-06-12 15:07:30 <michagogo> Yeah, but it involves waiting for my browser to load :-D
 959 2013-06-12 15:07:56 <warren> TheUni: unping
 960 2013-06-12 15:08:12 <nsh> 14:45	michagogo	Yeah, but it involves waiting for my browser to load :-D    - http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/06/12
 961 2013-06-12 15:08:32 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 962 2013-06-12 15:08:33 <nsh> sipa, in theory.
 963 2013-06-12 15:08:58 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 964 2013-06-12 15:09:11 <nsh> could you not have rolling torrents with split blockchains?
 965 2013-06-12 15:09:56 <nsh> nm, not sure that makes sense
 966 2013-06-12 15:10:50 <nsh> (you can selectively download certain files within a torrent, but i'm not sure you can make parts of two different torrents employ the same hive)
 967 2013-06-12 15:11:34 <vrs> hive? you mean swarm?
 968 2013-06-12 15:11:50 <helo> colony.
 969 2013-06-12 15:12:34 <nsh> hoard
 970 2013-06-12 15:13:05 <helo> might as well go with murder i guess
 971 2013-06-12 15:13:34 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 972 2013-06-12 15:13:42 <nsh> all solution converge asymptotically on murder
 973 2013-06-12 15:13:45 <nsh> *solutions
 974 2013-06-12 15:14:39 <tumak_> Messages may be hidden in the capital and lower-case letters such as "ShoEboX" which spells "SEX" in capitals and "hobo" in lower-case.
 975 2013-06-12 15:14:42 <tumak_> aha!
 976 2013-06-12 15:14:44 <jgarzik> Torrent post updated with new info: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0   Please seed!
 977 2013-06-12 15:14:52 * tumak_ looks for hidden messages from satoshi in bitcoin
 978 2013-06-12 15:15:06 <jgarzik> Direct torrent link http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/bootstrap.dat.torrent (but magnet / DHT preferred)
 979 2013-06-12 15:15:09 <nsh> tumak_, context?
 980 2013-06-12 15:15:20 * nsh seeds
 981 2013-06-12 15:15:22 <tumak_> nsh: StudlyCaps
 982 2013-06-12 15:15:33 <vrs> nsh: with a compliant bittorrent client, you can't do really fancy stuff like announcing the seeder of one file to another swarm, peer handshake includes info_hash and that is torrent specific
 983 2013-06-12 15:15:50 <nsh> right
 984 2013-06-12 15:15:53 SchmalzTech has joined
 985 2013-06-12 15:16:15 <michagogo> jgarzik: How come you didn't mention the magnet link in here?
 986 2013-06-12 15:16:24 <michagogo> I just grabbed the torrent file
 987 2013-06-12 15:16:30 Neozonz has joined
 988 2013-06-12 15:16:38 <michagogo> Anyway, it says it's "Checked 37%"
 989 2013-06-12 15:16:42 <michagogo> with the number rising
 990 2013-06-12 15:16:51 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 991 2013-06-12 15:17:19 <jgarzik> michagogo, laziness?  The forum link includes the magnet link
 992 2013-06-12 15:17:20 <jgarzik> :)
 993 2013-06-12 15:17:53 <michagogo> jgarzik: Sure, but you also posted the torrent link in here
 994 2013-06-12 15:18:02 <michagogo> With a request to use the magnet link, but not the link itself
 995 2013-06-12 15:18:18 <michagogo> So that same laziness leads to noncompliance with your request
 996 2013-06-12 15:18:19 <nsh> jgarzik, can bootsrap.dat be used with pynode?
 997 2013-06-12 15:18:26 <nsh> *bootstrap.dat
 998 2013-06-12 15:18:28 <jgarzik> michagogo, hehe
 999 2013-06-12 15:18:29 <nsh> (directly)
1000 2013-06-12 15:18:33 <michagogo> Hmm, no trackers?
1001 2013-06-12 15:18:47 <jgarzik> nsh, yes.  loadblock=bootstrap.dat in your configuration file
1002 2013-06-12 15:18:54 <nsh> ok, ty
1003 2013-06-12 15:19:11 <jgarzik> michagogo, DHT preferred.  magnet link adds some trackers though
1004 2013-06-12 15:21:27 B0g4r7 has joined
1005 2013-06-12 15:21:35 Subo1978_ has joined
1006 2013-06-12 15:21:39 <vrs> I think tracker.ccc.de hasn't been up for a year or two
1007 2013-06-12 15:21:43 <vrs> I could be wrong though
1008 2013-06-12 15:22:32 <jgarzik> vrs, dunno.  Input welcome?  I don't use the trackers usually.
1009 2013-06-12 15:22:32 <michagogo> Well, DHT hasn't found me any peers yet
1010 2013-06-12 15:22:50 <nsh> .head http://tracker.ccc.de ---> 404, text/html, 345 bytes
1011 2013-06-12 15:23:06 <jgarzik> nsh, is UDP down?
1012 2013-06-12 15:23:27 <nsh> for?
1013 2013-06-12 15:23:31 robocoin_ has quit (Quit: robocoin_)
1014 2013-06-12 15:23:46 <jgarzik> nsh, that tracker you just posted.  the magnet link uses udp://
1015 2013-06-12 15:23:46 <nsh> i had one peer for a while there but gone now
1016 2013-06-12 15:23:53 <nsh> oh, right, unsure
1017 2013-06-12 15:23:58 <jgarzik> michagogo, if it matters, my peer is us2.exmulti.net
1018 2013-06-12 15:24:19 <michagogo> jgarzik: Can you add a peer to a torrent?
1019 2013-06-12 15:24:20 beethoven2 is now known as beethoven8201
1020 2013-06-12 15:24:27 <vrs> michagogo: depends on your client
1021 2013-06-12 15:24:38 <jgarzik> michagogo, depends on the software.  Not sure about transmission.
1022 2013-06-12 15:24:47 Subo1978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1023 2013-06-12 15:24:47 <jgarzik> lemme try something locally, adding trackers
1024 2013-06-12 15:24:49 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1025 2013-06-12 15:24:50 <michagogo> µTorrent here
1026 2013-06-12 15:24:52 Subo1978_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1027 2013-06-12 15:25:08 Subo1978 has joined
1028 2013-06-12 15:25:17 Guest20910 has quit (Quit: leaving)
1029 2013-06-12 15:25:34 <vrs> jgarzik: which port?
1030 2013-06-12 15:25:40 ielo has joined
1031 2013-06-12 15:25:54 patcon_ has joined
1032 2013-06-12 15:25:59 <nsh> jgarzik, the A record for tracker.ccc.de is set to 127.0.0.1
1033 2013-06-12 15:26:08 <jgarzik> vrs, 51413
1034 2013-06-12 15:26:18 <jgarzik> default transmission port, I think
1035 2013-06-12 15:26:21 rdymac has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
1036 2013-06-12 15:26:25 <jgarzik> us2.exmulti.net:51413
1037 2013-06-12 15:26:31 rdymac has joined
1038 2013-06-12 15:26:32 rdymac has quit (Changing host)
1039 2013-06-12 15:26:32 rdymac has joined
1040 2013-06-12 15:27:04 agnostic98 has joined
1041 2013-06-12 15:27:56 <vrs> hm rtorrent still doesn't seem to have that
1042 2013-06-12 15:27:57 * nsh is downloading from 1 peer (us2.exmulti.net)
1043 2013-06-12 15:28:12 <vrs> but as soon as one bootstrapped peer is on the dht, things should start to work
1044 2013-06-12 15:28:54 <coingenuity> im afraid that i'm utterly retarded jgarzik, trying to figure out what part of this is the txid: 630003daa50026213d668b9338edd40cedf93513cdd323bf006626678fec624a97
1045 2013-06-12 15:29:03 da2ce7 has joined
1046 2013-06-12 15:29:11 <sipa> coingenuity: all of it
1047 2013-06-12 15:29:33 <sipa> hmm, it's one character too much
1048 2013-06-12 15:29:42 <coingenuity> sipa: hm, blockchain doesn't like that for some reason :/
1049 2013-06-12 15:29:49 <vrs> nsh: do you have working dht and are you announcing on it?
1050 2013-06-12 15:29:58 <sipa> coingenuity: is that a key in chainstate?
1051 2013-06-12 15:30:02 <SomeoneWeird> {"key":"c���\u0001��\\Bv��]\u0007��{�\u0018�y<�\u0018��\u0010��\u000e\u0000�V","value":"\u0001\u00032\u0003n+p���\bНV� \u001a�4v5���ԯO��T\u001bA\u0019�5\n�� "}
1052 2013-06-12 15:30:03 <coingenuity> sipa: yep
1053 2013-06-12 15:30:08 <SomeoneWeird> that's key + value from chainstate
1054 2013-06-12 15:30:08 <nsh> vrs, unsure how to check in transmission
1055 2013-06-12 15:30:09 <SomeoneWeird> raw
1056 2013-06-12 15:30:24 <nsh> i don't have any trackers, so i assume it got the peer from DHT
1057 2013-06-12 15:30:40 <sipa> coingenuity: the '63' in front is the key type ('c' in ascii, for coin)
1058 2013-06-12 15:30:43 <vrs> hm ok then it isn't in my dht yet
1059 2013-06-12 15:30:47 <sipa> coingenuity: so take all but the first character
1060 2013-06-12 15:30:52 <vrs> aha
1061 2013-06-12 15:30:53 <michagogo> Is DHT something that should be propagating globally?
1062 2013-06-12 15:31:07 <vrs> I got an answer from the dht
1063 2013-06-12 15:31:27 <coingenuity> sipa: i've tried a bunch of things like that, just tried your suggestion - still "invalid transaction hash"
1064 2013-06-12 15:31:40 <sipa> there may be a byte order issue
1065 2013-06-12 15:31:58 <jgarzik> michagogo, in theory yes
1066 2013-06-12 15:32:07 vigilyn has left ("Leaving")
1067 2013-06-12 15:32:08 <michagogo> jgarzik: Looks like several of those trackers aren't working: http://i.imgur.com/yczZCfT.png
1068 2013-06-12 15:32:52 <coingenuity> sipa: hrm, strange...not sure how i can figure this out now xD
1069 2013-06-12 15:33:13 <coingenuity> the value of the keys seems to conform to data standards in that file you linked me to before
1070 2013-06-12 15:33:16 <jgarzik> michagogo, noted thanks :/
1071 2013-06-12 15:33:25 <sipa> coingenuity: swap the bytes
1072 2013-06-12 15:33:32 <vrs> ok downloading from an israeli peer
1073 2013-06-12 15:33:33 Tantadruj has joined
1074 2013-06-12 15:33:35 <sipa> so 974a62ec8f ...
1075 2013-06-12 15:33:45 <nsh> http://www.trackon.org/ Trackon is a service to monitor the status and health of existing open and public trackers that anyone can use. A meta-tracker if you will. You can add any of the tracker announce URLs listed here to any of your torrents, or submit any other open/public trackers you might know of.
1076 2013-06-12 15:33:51 <michagogo> vrs: Hmm, maybe that's me?
1077 2013-06-12 15:34:02 <michagogo> vrs: are you amnesia.lambda.name?
1078 2013-06-12 15:34:05 <vrs> aye
1079 2013-06-12 15:34:11 <coingenuity> ah, thats a good idea sipa
1080 2013-06-12 15:34:13 <michagogo> Okay, so we found each other
1081 2013-06-12 15:34:22 <jgarzik> got eu3.exmulti.net going on torrent too
1082 2013-06-12 15:34:22 <nsh> (either they don't update often or bittorrent is not so healthy these days)
1083 2013-06-12 15:34:28 <jgarzik> DHT works there
1084 2013-06-12 15:35:34 * nsh has us2.exmulti.net and alster013.startdedicated.com now
1085 2013-06-12 15:35:36 <michagogo> Ah, found Add Peer
1086 2013-06-12 15:35:38 <jgarzik> two more peers here
1087 2013-06-12 15:35:47 <michagogo> I'll connect in a sec
1088 2013-06-12 15:36:02 <michagogo> Oh, it already found us2
1089 2013-06-12 15:36:19 <nsh> also get a semidecent speed which means british telecom are feeling generous or something
1090 2013-06-12 15:36:27 <michagogo> jgarzik: What port?
1091 2013-06-12 15:36:37 <jgarzik> michagogo, 51413
1092 2013-06-12 15:36:51 <jgarzik> anybody running rtorrent?
1093 2013-06-12 15:37:00 <jgarzik> got a forum report that it doesn't like the .torrent
1094 2013-06-12 15:37:04 <nsh> hmm
1095 2013-06-12 15:37:05 pizzacat has joined
1096 2013-06-12 15:37:43 * nsh checks, one min
1097 2013-06-12 15:38:17 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1098 2013-06-12 15:38:55 <michagogo> Oh, that's why I couldn't seem to add eu3 to the torrent
1099 2013-06-12 15:38:56 <nsh> rtorrent complains: (15:14:41) Could not create download: Could not find any trackers
1100 2013-06-12 15:38:59 jimmy2k has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1101 2013-06-12 15:39:06 <michagogo> Because alster013.startdedicated.com is eu3 and it already found that for me
1102 2013-06-12 15:39:31 <ll> yeah not loading with rtorrent, same msg as nsh
1103 2013-06-12 15:39:52 <michagogo> rtorrent requires trackers? o_O
1104 2013-06-12 15:39:56 <vrs> downloading at 8MB/s :)
1105 2013-06-12 15:39:57 <jgarzik> nsh, ll: turn on DHT?
1106 2013-06-12 15:40:00 <michagogo> Does the magnet link work?
1107 2013-06-12 15:40:03 * nsh figures out how to do so
1108 2013-06-12 15:40:05 <jgarzik> michagogo, yes
1109 2013-06-12 15:40:13 <michagogo> To what?
1110 2013-06-12 15:40:15 <jgarzik> rtorrent disables DHT by default or somesuch
1111 2013-06-12 15:40:16 <vrs> turn on the dht and turn off the trackers
1112 2013-06-12 15:40:18 <michagogo> Ah
1113 2013-06-12 15:40:27 patcon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1114 2013-06-12 15:40:30 <michagogo> I look to have 5 peers
1115 2013-06-12 15:40:48 <michagogo> jgarzik, jgarzik, vrs, and 2 more
1116 2013-06-12 15:41:39 <michagogo> Ah, I see eu3 doesn't have the whole thing yet
1117 2013-06-12 15:41:54 <michagogo> I appear to be sending it ~250 kB/s
1118 2013-06-12 15:41:58 <jgarzik> indeed
1119 2013-06-12 15:42:04 <jgarzik> us2 has the only full copy
1120 2013-06-12 15:42:24 <jgarzik> eu3 has the old bootstrap.dat, so > 50%
1121 2013-06-12 15:42:52 jtimon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1122 2013-06-12 15:43:21 <warren> how big is it these days?  (doesn't sync often)
1123 2013-06-12 15:43:46 <jgarzik> warren, 7.83 GiB
1124 2013-06-12 15:43:51 <nsh> jgarzik, even with dht = on \n dht_port = 6881   in .rtorrent.rc it still complains about not finding trackers. may need to configure a session directory to bootstrap the DHT or something
1125 2013-06-12 15:44:14 <sipa> didn't rtorrent use a differnt dht mechanism or so
1126 2013-06-12 15:44:29 <nsh> or wait until it's bootstrapped then add the torrent
1127 2013-06-12 15:44:44 <jgarzik> sipa, no, it's just stupid ;p   I tested rtorrent back when I originally did this.  It worked -- once you manually configured a setting or two
1128 2013-06-12 15:44:58 <jgarzik> the fix is to regen the .torrent with trackers, it sounds like
1129 2013-06-12 15:45:09 <michagogo> Oh, I didn't even notice that µTorrent tells you how much of the file your peers have
1130 2013-06-12 15:45:17 <jgarzik> sipa, rtorrent's DHT does work fine, once setup
1131 2013-06-12 15:45:21 <sipa> ok
1132 2013-06-12 15:45:33 <michagogo> I seem to have the second most after us2, tied with eu3
1133 2013-06-12 15:45:34 <vrs> sipa: rtorrent doesn't use bootstrap nodes afaik
1134 2013-06-12 15:46:03 <tumak_> rtorrent's dht is super sloppy
1135 2013-06-12 15:46:08 <tumak_> but eventually it catches up
1136 2013-06-12 15:46:18 <vrs> or, used to but it worked fine this time
1137 2013-06-12 15:46:19 <tumak_> it indees needs to discover dht nodes from torrents with tracker first :/
1138 2013-06-12 15:46:40 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
1139 2013-06-12 15:46:45 <vrs> tumak_: yeah, this
1140 2013-06-12 15:46:51 <nsh> you can embed DHT nodes in the torrent file itself
1141 2013-06-12 15:46:53 <nsh> i believe
1142 2013-06-12 15:46:58 <vrs> yes
1143 2013-06-12 15:47:00 <nsh> also you can add them manually in rtorrent
1144 2013-06-12 15:47:03 <jgarzik> If done smartly, that wouldn't be half bad.  Pick a few open trackers, pick some info hashes at random, bootstrap the DHT that way.
1145 2013-06-12 15:47:07 <vrs> dht nodes? how?
1146 2013-06-12 15:47:13 <nsh> http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no/wiki/RTorrentUsingDHT
1147 2013-06-12 15:47:15 <michagogo> Anyone know what the Flags column is?
1148 2013-06-12 15:47:22 <nsh> If you know host name/IP and port of a DHT node, you can enter it manually with the command "dht_add_node=host:port". This command only adds the node to the routing table if there is space for it.
1149 2013-06-12 15:48:00 <nsh> (command switch)
1150 2013-06-12 15:48:29 <vrs> nice, I just used to copy dht caches between rtorrent instances when I needed a quick bootstrap
1151 2013-06-12 15:48:41 * nsh nods
1152 2013-06-12 15:48:50 <nsh> rarely use rtorrent, only when i need to get around ISP restrictions
1153 2013-06-12 15:48:59 mrkent has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1154 2013-06-12 15:49:23 jaequery has joined
1155 2013-06-12 15:50:11 <jgarzik> OK, heading to lunch.  When I return (~ 1 hour), will regenerate the .torrent.  infohash should not change [unless I'm an idiot, which is always possible]
1156 2013-06-12 15:50:27 <jgarzik> and in an hour, hopefully there will be more seeds, both data and DHT-wise
1157 2013-06-12 15:51:03 <nsh> :)
1158 2013-06-12 15:51:22 <michagogo> jgarzik: Will we need to swap out the torrent?
1159 2013-06-12 15:51:37 <nsh> probably not
1160 2013-06-12 15:51:56 <jgarzik> michagogo, only if you want to advertise to the trackers that are added to the new .torrent
1161 2013-06-12 15:51:57 <michagogo> (בתיאבון, btw)
1162 2013-06-12 15:52:08 <jgarzik> michagogo, so, not REQUIRED to swap out .torrent, no
1163 2013-06-12 15:52:15 <michagogo> But better to do it?
1164 2013-06-12 15:52:19 <jgarzik> yes
1165 2013-06-12 15:52:22 <michagogo> k
1166 2013-06-12 15:52:39 <jgarzik> advertises to more trackers, making the torrent easier to find by weirdo rtorrent users
1167 2013-06-12 15:52:40 * jgarzik runs
1168 2013-06-12 15:52:41 <jgarzik> :)
1169 2013-06-12 15:53:07 o3u_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1170 2013-06-12 15:53:13 jimmy2k has joined
1171 2013-06-12 15:53:31 <SomeoneWeird> lul
1172 2013-06-12 15:53:36 <michagogo> I wonder if µTorrent can seed the old torrent off of the new .dat
1173 2013-06-12 15:53:45 paracyst has joined
1174 2013-06-12 15:54:11 <michagogo> It seems it can't while it's being brought up to date, since it's a .!ut file while that happens
1175 2013-06-12 15:54:18 <michagogo> But afterwards... I wonder...
1176 2013-06-12 15:55:39 patcon has joined
1177 2013-06-12 15:56:10 <tumak_> meh, dht still deaf
1178 2013-06-12 15:56:23 <tumak_>                     Id:  Counters: 0f / 1s (0)  on S/L/D: 0/0/0 (2/2)
1179 2013-06-12 15:57:00 * tumak_ holds t
1180 2013-06-12 15:57:46 Odyessus has joined
1181 2013-06-12 15:57:52 <michagogo> Hmm, told it to update DHT
1182 2013-06-12 15:57:56 <michagogo> Picked up another peer
1183 2013-06-12 16:00:03 <TD> jgarzik: once you regenerate the torrent, maybe you could submit a pull for the website to inform people that it exists and how to use it
1184 2013-06-12 16:00:28 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1185 2013-06-12 16:02:35 <tumak_> huh
1186 2013-06-12 16:02:41 <tumak_> are all bitcoiners mac users? :)
1187 2013-06-12 16:02:44 robocoin has joined
1188 2013-06-12 16:02:52 <tumak_> transmission 4x, utorrent 1x :)
1189 2013-06-12 16:03:33 <sipa> tumak_: eh, no?
1190 2013-06-12 16:03:45 <tumak_> just prejudice
1191 2013-06-12 16:03:52 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1192 2013-06-12 16:03:53 <tumak_> transmission dont always imply mac user :)
1193 2013-06-12 16:05:06 <sipa> i also use transmission, but on ubuntu
1194 2013-06-12 16:05:56 * tumak_ is faithful to rtorrent
1195 2013-06-12 16:06:12 <tumak_> transmission refused to to run 2k+ torrents for me :(
1196 2013-06-12 16:06:47 <michagogo> tumak_: If the µTorrent is Israeli, that's me
1197 2013-06-12 16:06:52 <michagogo> Windows 7 here
1198 2013-06-12 16:06:59 jimmy2k has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1199 2013-06-12 16:07:47 <michagogo> Though I don't see anything I recognize as you
1200 2013-06-12 16:08:23 <tumak_> libtorrent cz
1201 2013-06-12 16:08:24 <tumak_> :)
1202 2013-06-12 16:08:48 <tumak_> and i see you :)
1203 2013-06-12 16:08:51 <michagogo> tumak_: I see 2 libtorrents
1204 2013-06-12 16:09:05 <michagogo> One is vrs, and the other is router-sun-nat-f.pilsfree.net   internet address = 212.79.110.21
1205 2013-06-12 16:09:19 <michagogo> And the second one doesn't match your host
1206 2013-06-12 16:09:22 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1207 2013-06-12 16:09:23 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1208 2013-06-12 16:09:29 <michagogo> (or is that you somewhere else?)
1209 2013-06-12 16:09:31 <tumak_> yeah, i irc from dev box
1210 2013-06-12 16:09:43 <tumak_> router-sun is torrent box
1211 2013-06-12 16:10:04 <michagogo> Ah, so you're on a server in Germany
1212 2013-06-12 16:10:20 <tumak_> dunno, hetzner is all over the place
1213 2013-06-12 16:10:28 <michagogo> Odd, the torrent box is showing as being in the US according to µTorrent
1214 2013-06-12 16:10:42 <michagogo> Oh, you know what?
1215 2013-06-12 16:10:47 <michagogo> I think it's just using the tld
1216 2013-06-12 16:11:04 <tumak_> yeah, it never bothered with geoip :/
1217 2013-06-12 16:11:19 <michagogo> Ah
1218 2013-06-12 16:11:25 <michagogo> Okay, I turned on an advanced option
1219 2013-06-12 16:11:33 * nsh used to have an ip address located in antarctica 
1220 2013-06-12 16:11:37 <michagogo> peer.resolve_country
1221 2013-06-12 16:11:49 <nsh> but then the australian antarctic survey wanted their server back :/
1222 2013-06-12 16:11:51 <tumak_> * 5216.0 / 8013.0 MB Rate: 4898.3 / 392.2 KB Uploaded:  1963.7 MB [65%]  0d  2:01 [   R: 0.38]
1223 2013-06-12 16:11:54 <tumak_> ugh
1224 2013-06-12 16:11:54 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1225 2013-06-12 16:11:56 <michagogo> Now it seems to show the flags properly
1226 2013-06-12 16:11:58 <tumak_> 2 hours? really? :(
1227 2013-06-12 16:12:11 * tumak_ wants teh blockchains nao
1228 2013-06-12 16:12:21 <michagogo> Is the Czech flag a blue triangle from the left, with a white stripe above a red one?
1229 2013-06-12 16:12:29 Odyessus has joined
1230 2013-06-12 16:12:38 <vrs> nsh: was the physical server there too or was it just the geolocation db?
1231 2013-06-12 16:12:53 <tumak_> michagogo: like philippino, except upside down
1232 2013-06-12 16:12:57 <tumak_> michagogo: we have phillipinos
1233 2013-06-12 16:12:59 <nsh> i think the server was there. it served a lot of photos of ice sheets :)
1234 2013-06-12 16:13:00 <tumak_> *hate
1235 2013-06-12 16:13:15 <michagogo> tumak_: I'm not familiar with most world flags
1236 2013-06-12 16:13:17 <michagogo> :-/
1237 2013-06-12 16:14:04 <nsh> (i didn't legitimately own it. i fell out in the course of some security auditing)
1238 2013-06-12 16:14:07 <nsh> *it
1239 2013-06-12 16:14:43 <tumak_> you stole it!
1240 2013-06-12 16:14:45 <tumak_> damn
1241 2013-06-12 16:15:02 <tumak_> do you have any idea how expensive australian servers are?!
1242 2013-06-12 16:15:15 <tumak_> nsh: i hope you gave it back to rightful owner
1243 2013-06-12 16:15:26 <nsh> of course
1244 2013-06-12 16:16:25 bitanarchy has joined
1245 2013-06-12 16:21:18 jimmy2k has joined
1246 2013-06-12 16:23:03 paracyst has joined
1247 2013-06-12 16:25:35 yubrew has joined
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1249 2013-06-12 16:30:05 wei_ has joined
1250 2013-06-12 16:30:34 nus has joined
1251 2013-06-12 16:31:24 ryan-c has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1252 2013-06-12 16:32:09 ryan-c has joined
1253 2013-06-12 16:34:52 mrkent has joined
1254 2013-06-12 16:34:52 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
1255 2013-06-12 16:34:52 mrkent has joined
1256 2013-06-12 16:34:55 o3u has joined
1257 2013-06-12 16:35:27 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1258 2013-06-12 16:40:34 ielo has joined
1259 2013-06-12 16:41:54 metabyte has quit ()
1260 2013-06-12 16:48:31 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1261 2013-06-12 16:49:29 * michagogo pokes jgarzik
1262 2013-06-12 16:50:18 * SomeoneWeird pokes michagogo 
1263 2013-06-12 16:50:20 * michagogo slaps SomeoneWeird around a bit with a large trout
1264 2013-06-12 16:50:35 * SomeoneWeird eats trout
1265 2013-06-12 16:52:41 <dugo> someone not done dumping 500 at a time
1266 2013-06-12 16:52:52 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1267 2013-06-12 16:54:42 <dugo> ;; market buy 700
1268 2013-06-12 16:54:46 <dugo> ;; market sell 700
1269 2013-06-12 16:54:48 <gribble> A market order to buy 700 bitcoins right now would take 77881.0105 USD and would take the last price up to 111.5000 USD, resulting in an average price of 111.2586 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0008 seconds
1270 2013-06-12 16:54:49 <gribble> A market order to sell 700 bitcoins right now would net 75884.0478 USD and would take the last price down to 108.1600 USD, resulting in an average price of 108.4058 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0040 seconds
1271 2013-06-12 16:54:52 ProfMac has joined
1272 2013-06-12 16:55:02 <dugo> wc
1273 2013-06-12 16:55:07 whiterabbit has joined
1274 2013-06-12 16:55:32 setkeh has joined
1275 2013-06-12 16:56:25 wallet431 has joined
1276 2013-06-12 16:58:05 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1277 2013-06-12 16:58:27 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1278 2013-06-12 16:58:34 whiterab1it has joined
1279 2013-06-12 16:58:38 whiterab1it is now known as wrabbit
1280 2013-06-12 16:58:47 mrkent has joined
1281 2013-06-12 16:58:47 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
1282 2013-06-12 16:58:48 mrkent has joined
1283 2013-06-12 17:02:07 whiterabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1284 2013-06-12 17:04:07 <nsh> jgarzik, do you have any thoughts yet on how wallet functionality with work in pynode? will it be roughly analogous to the reference client implementation?
1285 2013-06-12 17:04:41 jaequery has joined
1286 2013-06-12 17:06:06 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1287 2013-06-12 17:06:26 jurov has joined
1288 2013-06-12 17:06:57 <michagogo> Still only got those 6 peers
1289 2013-06-12 17:07:50 * nsh has 5 now
1290 2013-06-12 17:08:06 <nsh> getting 700kB/s though (which is not bad for my connection)
1291 2013-06-12 17:08:26 <nsh> 3.20/8.40GB complete
1292 2013-06-12 17:09:00 <michagogo> nsh: are you 91.202.254.170?
1293 2013-06-12 17:09:25 <michagogo> or 86.142.61.176?
1294 2013-06-12 17:09:53 <SomeoneWeird> maybe he's the one who wants to keep his IP private
1295 2013-06-12 17:09:53 <SomeoneWeird> >_>
1296 2013-06-12 17:09:55 nikolaj has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1297 2013-06-12 17:09:56 * nsh smiles
1298 2013-06-12 17:10:20 <michagogo> I'm your Israeli peer
1299 2013-06-12 17:10:27 <nsh> yay :)
1300 2013-06-12 17:10:40 <michagogo> Don't seem to be uploading to you, though
1301 2013-06-12 17:11:29 <michagogo> ...and now you've dropped off the peer list
1302 2013-06-12 17:12:16 <michagogo> Okay, updating dht got you back
1303 2013-06-12 17:12:21 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1304 2013-06-12 17:12:40 d4de has joined
1305 2013-06-12 17:13:52 melvster has joined
1306 2013-06-12 17:15:55 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1307 2013-06-12 17:18:28 <petertodd> 'away .
1308 2013-06-12 17:19:05 nsh has quit (Changing host)
1309 2013-06-12 17:19:05 nsh has joined
1310 2013-06-12 17:19:14 <jgarzik> sigh.  OSX demands a restart.
1311 2013-06-12 17:19:24 jgarzik has quit (Quit: apple apple apple)
1312 2013-06-12 17:20:25 tyn has joined
1313 2013-06-12 17:20:27 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1314 2013-06-12 17:20:53 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1315 2013-06-12 17:21:39 PrimeStunna has joined
1316 2013-06-12 17:21:39 stevei has joined
1317 2013-06-12 17:21:52 <SomeoneWeird> OSX
1318 2013-06-12 17:21:55 <SomeoneWeird> lol @ quit message
1319 2013-06-12 17:21:57 yubrew has joined
1320 2013-06-12 17:22:32 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1321 2013-06-12 17:23:31 iwilcox has joined
1322 2013-06-12 17:23:31 iwilcox has quit (Changing host)
1323 2013-06-12 17:23:31 iwilcox has joined
1324 2013-06-12 17:23:58 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1325 2013-06-12 17:24:05 rdymac has joined
1326 2013-06-12 17:25:29 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1327 2013-06-12 17:25:45 Prattler has joined
1328 2013-06-12 17:25:48 peetaur2 has joined
1329 2013-06-12 17:27:22 jgarzik has joined
1330 2013-06-12 17:27:40 <jgarzik> ok, back.  Will look at regenerating the torrent.
1331 2013-06-12 17:27:53 <SomeoneWeird> APPLE APPLE APPLE
1332 2013-06-12 17:28:04 <nsh> BANANA HAMMOCK
1333 2013-06-12 17:28:16 <SomeoneWeird> OI OI OI
1334 2013-06-12 17:28:29 <jgarzik> TD, meh, I just cannot summon the effort to update the html and send in a pull req.  will happily email text to saivann or someone else though
1335 2013-06-12 17:28:56 <jgarzik> TD, advertising the torrent in that way is OK
1336 2013-06-12 17:30:08 <michagogo> jgarzik: If it's not too much HTML stuff (I'm not great at that beyond the basics) I can do it
1337 2013-06-12 17:31:23 <jgarzik> michagogo, it's basically: clone bitcoin.org repo, update html, submit pull req.  I think basic html works.  open question about where to submit the text, WRT site navigation.
1338 2013-06-12 17:31:38 <jgarzik> i.e. new page, update existing page, I don't know.
1339 2013-06-12 17:31:40 <michagogo> With respect to?
1340 2013-06-12 17:31:58 <jgarzik> With regards to.  Same basic idea.  :)
1341 2013-06-12 17:32:02 <michagogo> k
1342 2013-06-12 17:32:10 <michagogo> Forking right now
1343 2013-06-12 17:32:19 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1344 2013-06-12 17:32:39 <jgarzik> main question is trackers
1345 2013-06-12 17:33:04 <jgarzik> from the imgur:  http/h33t.com udp/openbittorrent are OK
1346 2013-06-12 17:33:15 <jgarzik> ccc.de, publicbt.com, istole.it NOT OK
1347 2013-06-12 17:33:18 vigilyn has joined
1348 2013-06-12 17:34:12 <jgarzik> unfortunately I am not an expert on "what is a good public tracker for bit coin block chain torrent?"
1349 2013-06-12 17:34:42 <michagogo> istole.it seems to be working atm
1350 2013-06-12 17:35:03 <michagogo> and publicbt.com
1351 2013-06-12 17:35:04 <jgarzik> ok
1352 2013-06-12 17:35:12 <michagogo> Idk
1353 2013-06-12 17:35:38 <gmaxwell> "But DHT's fix everything!" :P
1354 2013-06-12 17:35:51 kauzu has joined
1355 2013-06-12 17:35:56 <kauzu> hey
1356 2013-06-12 17:36:22 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Except rtorrent apparently requires trackers
1357 2013-06-12 17:36:36 <nsh> (or witchery)
1358 2013-06-12 17:36:38 <kauzu> https://blockchain.info/de/tx/79c6730ac0698886e2021a13f0099f183ce266a5f139922f0c52627477b569ac?show_adv=true why is this tx not accepted? i know there is a double spend but one of them both should be accepted by time or am i wrong?
1359 2013-06-12 17:36:52 <gmaxwell> michagogo: it doesn't— but you have to bootstrap it somehow... if only the problems were limited to rtorrent. :(
1360 2013-06-12 17:37:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, hehe
1361 2013-06-12 17:37:24 ovidiusoft has joined
1362 2013-06-12 17:37:42 <nsh> kauzu, transactions are not partially valid
1363 2013-06-12 17:38:04 <jgarzik> I need to get on Cafe Press or somewhere that has an online t-shirt shop.  Need shirts and coffee mugs with taglines like "DHT will fix it" or "have DHT, will travel"
1364 2013-06-12 17:38:14 chorao has joined
1365 2013-06-12 17:38:15 <jgarzik> bonus points if t-shirt shop takes bitcoins
1366 2013-06-12 17:38:20 toffoo has joined
1367 2013-06-12 17:38:29 <michagogo> Looks like my node has seen 79c6730ac0698886e2021a13f0099f183ce266a5f139922f0c52627477b569ac but not 4ed48eea852c943d8ae13a09a18fb209af36350f43884854a481132abc81d172
1368 2013-06-12 17:39:05 <kauzu> nsh: what does "not partially valid" mean?
1369 2013-06-12 17:39:20 <nsh> they are either valid or not
1370 2013-06-12 17:39:49 <nsh> (perhaps i misunderstood your query)
1371 2013-06-12 17:39:50 <michagogo> nsh: I think he's asking about confirmation
1372 2013-06-12 17:39:58 <michagogo> As in, why hasn't one of them confirmed
1373 2013-06-12 17:40:04 <nsh> right, my bad
1374 2013-06-12 17:40:50 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1375 2013-06-12 17:41:00 <kauzu> is there a way to know if one of them will be accepted? it does not matter for me which one
1376 2013-06-12 17:41:13 dvide has joined
1377 2013-06-12 17:44:54 <kauzu> :/
1378 2013-06-12 17:47:46 <jgarzik> OK
1379 2013-06-12 17:47:56 <jgarzik> Updated torrent file w/ trackers: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/bootstrap.dat.torrent
1380 2013-06-12 17:48:01 <jgarzik> Please test, especially with rtorrent
1381 2013-06-12 17:48:23 <jgarzik> info hash is same as earlier release today
1382 2013-06-12 17:48:33 tyn has joined
1383 2013-06-12 17:48:36 <jgarzik> so same DHT collection, same peers, same bytes
1384 2013-06-12 17:48:41 iwilcox_ has joined
1385 2013-06-12 17:48:41 iwilcox_ has quit (Changing host)
1386 2013-06-12 17:48:41 iwilcox_ has joined
1387 2013-06-12 17:49:27 iwilcox is now known as Guest91588
1388 2013-06-12 17:49:27 Guest91588 has quit (Killed (hubbard.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
1389 2013-06-12 17:49:27 iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox
1390 2013-06-12 17:49:31 <michagogo> jgarzik: Would the same magnetlink work?
1391 2013-06-12 17:49:54 <michagogo> Also, nothing appears to have changed as far as I can tell
1392 2013-06-12 17:50:14 <jgarzik> michagogo, magnet link obtains the .torrent from another peer, so? probably not
1393 2013-06-12 17:50:19 * jgarzik is restarting his two peers
1394 2013-06-12 17:50:52 <michagogo> It said something about it already existing, and do I want to add trackers from it
1395 2013-06-12 17:50:53 PrimeStunna has quit (Quit: PrimeStunna)
1396 2013-06-12 17:51:28 <michagogo> Erm
1397 2013-06-12 17:51:29 <michagogo> Oops...
1398 2013-06-12 17:51:35 <michagogo> I think I just accidentally the torrent
1399 2013-06-12 17:52:13 <SomeoneWeird> :O
1400 2013-06-12 17:52:43 <kauzu> nsh:  is there a way to know if one of them will be accepted? it does not matter for me which one
1401 2013-06-12 17:53:05 <michagogo> It's okay, just needs to rescan the file, it looks like
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1407 2013-06-12 17:55:10 LordOfTime has quit (EC2!LordOfTime@ubuntu/member/lordoftime|Read error: Operation timed out)
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1420 2013-06-12 17:57:46 TheLordO- is now known as TheLordOfTime|EC
1421 2013-06-12 17:57:54 TheLordOfTime is now known as EC!LordOfTime@ubuntu/member/lordoftime|LordOfTime|EC2
1422 2013-06-12 17:58:14 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1424 2013-06-12 18:00:06 fanquake has quit (Quit: fanquake)
1425 2013-06-12 18:02:03 <jgarzik> I wonder if rsync is smart enough to sync old->new bootstrap.dat, without completely transferring all ~7GB
1426 2013-06-12 18:02:15 * jgarzik seems to recall "yes"
1427 2013-06-12 18:02:26 <Diablo-D3> define "all"
1428 2013-06-12 18:02:32 <sipa> jgarzik: sure
1429 2013-06-12 18:02:45 <sipa> but rsync is not super efficient about that, as it searched for moved data
1430 2013-06-12 18:03:09 <jgarzik> seems like noticing an append situation would be straightforward
1431 2013-06-12 18:03:31 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah, but rsync can execute rsync on the other side
1432 2013-06-12 18:03:35 <Diablo-D3> which is where the magic is
1433 2013-06-12 18:03:48 <Diablo-D3> so it can check blocks without transferring data
1434 2013-06-12 18:04:14 patcon has joined
1435 2013-06-12 18:04:42 PrimeStunna has joined
1436 2013-06-12 18:05:37 <sipa> jgarzik: it is, but it will first compute checksums of the entire receiver-side file, send those to the sender, let the sender search for diffs, and then send those
1437 2013-06-12 18:05:54 <sipa> so on the sender side you may see minutes of nothing before anything is really transmitted
1438 2013-06-12 18:06:13 <jgarzik> as long as the total time is decreased...
1439 2013-06-12 18:07:00 <sipa> surely it will
1440 2013-06-12 18:07:24 <nsh> rsync is also somehow faster at deleting large numbers of files than rm
1441 2013-06-12 18:07:48 <nsh> (probably because of the NSA backdoor in GNU rm that does a backup first)
1442 2013-06-12 18:07:56 Ry4an_ is now known as Ry4an
1443 2013-06-12 18:08:02 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1444 2013-06-12 18:08:42 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1445 2013-06-12 18:09:41 stevei has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1446 2013-06-12 18:10:07 jaequery has left ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
1447 2013-06-12 18:10:25 <sturles> rsync doesn't delete the files at all.  Just makes them invisible to everyone but NSA.
1448 2013-06-12 18:10:27 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
1449 2013-06-12 18:10:34 <sturles> Obviously faster.
1450 2013-06-12 18:10:40 <jgarzik> Two peers have 92%
1451 2013-06-12 18:11:07 <michagogo> I have 87.6
1452 2013-06-12 18:11:12 * nsh at 69%
1453 2013-06-12 18:11:20 <michagogo> Doesn't seem to be moving much, though
1454 2013-06-12 18:11:36 <michagogo> jgarzik: Looks like 3 peers have that
1455 2013-06-12 18:11:47 <michagogo> 4*
1456 2013-06-12 18:12:25 <nsh> btw: <nsh> jgarzik, do you have any thoughts yet on how wallet functionality with work in pynode? will it be roughly analogous to the reference client implementation?
1457 2013-06-12 18:12:48 roconnor has joined
1458 2013-06-12 18:13:22 <jgarzik> nsh, completely open question.  pynode has zero wallet code right now, so it could be SPV or full
1459 2013-06-12 18:13:33 <nsh> right
1460 2013-06-12 18:13:54 <nsh> ideally a choice of both :)
1461 2013-06-12 18:14:09 <michagogo> Erm, both of jgarzik's peers and vrs's peer have an S in the flags section
1462 2013-06-12 18:14:09 Subo1978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1463 2013-06-12 18:14:20 <michagogo> According to the help thing, that means they're snubbed
1464 2013-06-12 18:14:23 <michagogo> Why is that?
1465 2013-06-12 18:15:09 * jgarzik tries to recall.  I think snubbed is just a temporary, flow control condition
1466 2013-06-12 18:15:45 <michagogo> ;;google define snub bittorrent
1467 2013-06-12 18:15:46 <gribble> Glossary of BitTorrent terms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_BitTorrent_terms>; Bittorrent - Bit Torrent terms and definitions - Vladd44.com: <http://www.vladd44.com/torrent/terms.php>; how to avoid being snubbed using bt? - BitTorrent - Peer to peer ...: <http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/229945>
1468 2013-06-12 18:15:49 <nsh> "An uploading client is flagged as snubbed if the downloading client has not received any data from it in over 60 seconds."
1469 2013-06-12 18:15:52 <nsh> -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_BitTorrent_terms#Snubbed
1470 2013-06-12 18:15:54 Subo1978 has joined
1471 2013-06-12 18:16:00 <nsh> probably link quality problem
1472 2013-06-12 18:16:10 <michagogo> How do I fix it?
1473 2013-06-12 18:16:17 <michagogo> Or have it retry or something?
1474 2013-06-12 18:16:41 <nsh> not sure :/
1475 2013-06-12 18:16:49 <jgarzik> not sure.  easy guess: restart client.
1476 2013-06-12 18:17:01 <jgarzik> but probably just wait
1477 2013-06-12 18:17:08 <jgarzik> The Swarm Will Fix It
1478 2013-06-12 18:17:18 <michagogo> I'll try that
1479 2013-06-12 18:17:35 <nsh> might be modifiable in preferences somewhere
1480 2013-06-12 18:19:39 fourlights_ has joined
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1488 2013-06-12 18:29:09 <jgarzik> several peers at 96.2%
1489 2013-06-12 18:29:23 <rufus__> Hello
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1501 2013-06-12 18:44:30 <jgarzik> 99.1%
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1508 2013-06-12 18:51:26 <jgarzik> 100%
1509 2013-06-12 18:51:41 <jgarzik> the first wave of torrent seeds has landed
1510 2013-06-12 18:52:52 <sipa> torrent file?
1511 2013-06-12 18:53:10 brson has joined
1512 2013-06-12 18:53:33 <jgarzik> sipa, http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/blockchain/bootstrap.dat.torrent/download
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1518 2013-06-12 18:54:53 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1519 2013-06-12 18:55:54 <sipa> wow, 11 MB/s
1520 2013-06-12 18:56:26 digitalmagus has joined
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1522 2013-06-12 18:56:40 <nsh> showoff
1523 2013-06-12 18:56:40 <MC1984> 6 trackrs lol
1524 2013-06-12 18:56:42 <nsh> :)
1525 2013-06-12 18:56:59 <nsh> MC1984, six working trackers??
1526 2013-06-12 18:57:05 <MC1984> people still using shitty rtorrent i assume
1527 2013-06-12 18:57:24 <nsh> seemingly
1528 2013-06-12 18:57:58 <jgarzik> MC1984, sadly
1529 2013-06-12 18:58:11 <MC1984> how old is the mainline dht now, 6 years?
1530 2013-06-12 18:58:50 <jgarzik> MC1984, and don't forget Azureus Island -- they have their own DHT, so Azureus users tend to only find other Azureus users, for some things
1531 2013-06-12 18:59:20 <jgarzik> it has a 'mainline DHT' plugin, that works fine.  But not installed or activated by default.
1532 2013-06-12 18:59:22 <MC1984> thought they had a mainline dht plugin bundled by default now
1533 2013-06-12 18:59:23 <nsh> like furries
1534 2013-06-12 18:59:26 <MC1984> oh
1535 2013-06-12 18:59:45 Wegglesworth has quit (Quit: Can I interest you in some ShittleMix?)
1536 2013-06-12 18:59:47 <MC1984> well thats really dumb, dhts only useful whe theyre global
1537 2013-06-12 19:00:11 <MC1984> no one uses vuze any way, so it doesnt matter
1538 2013-06-12 19:00:24 <jgarzik> MC1984, can't pimp your own DHT, if you connect to mainline DHT, I suspect
1539 2013-06-12 19:00:27 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1540 2013-06-12 19:00:54 <MC1984> they implemented it first afaik
1541 2013-06-12 19:01:13 <MC1984> but utorrents dht won out obv
1542 2013-06-12 19:01:49 <michagogo> Hmm, looks like there's another Israeli peer in the swarm
1543 2013-06-12 19:02:08 <MC1984> tried to drop a magnet uri for the new torrent into the commnts of the old one, but put it in the new one instead like a total nob :/
1544 2013-06-12 19:02:14 <sipa> my guess: i will upload to more people who want bootstrap.dat in order to serve it, than to actual people needing it
1545 2013-06-12 19:02:31 <michagogo> sipa: Of course you will, at first
1546 2013-06-12 19:02:36 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1547 2013-06-12 19:02:38 <michagogo> For some reason I'm only in the low double digits of kB/s
1548 2013-06-12 19:03:03 <jgarzik> sipa, probably
1549 2013-06-12 19:03:12 panzer has joined
1550 2013-06-12 19:03:24 <MC1984> you know this torrnt rechecking is going to get very painful one day
1551 2013-06-12 19:03:36 <jgarzik> sipa, the goal is to have enough seeders to max out the d/l bandwidth of new downloaders
1552 2013-06-12 19:03:50 <MC1984> not as painful as starting from scratch i suppsoe
1553 2013-06-12 19:03:59 <jgarzik> and field experience so far seems to indicate the previous torrents achieved that
1554 2013-06-12 19:04:37 <jgarzik> MC1984, depends on whether you mind downloading everything fresh or not ;p  verifying happens one way or the other
1555 2013-06-12 19:04:40 <MC1984> well so much for it being a temporary measure
1556 2013-06-12 19:05:49 <MC1984> lol so if i want to run bitcoin and seed this torrent my chain storage requirements double
1557 2013-06-12 19:05:56 <michagogo> Unfortunately, yes.
1558 2013-06-12 19:06:01 <jgarzik> yep
1559 2013-06-12 19:06:03 tyn has joined
1560 2013-06-12 19:06:07 <michagogo> Well, not quite double
1561 2013-06-12 19:06:19 <michagogo> The torrent doesn't have the *full* blockchain
1562 2013-06-12 19:06:25 <jgarzik> Just the raw blockchain storage is doubled, not the indices
1563 2013-06-12 19:06:27 kauzu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1564 2013-06-12 19:06:27 <MC1984> would there be any way to seed the actual database, minus the index and revs etc
1565 2013-06-12 19:06:30 <sipa> you can actually use bootstrap.dat as blk00000.dat, and reindex
1566 2013-06-12 19:06:30 <michagogo> And of course there's the index, chainstate, etc
1567 2013-06-12 19:06:47 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1568 2013-06-12 19:06:51 <MC1984> and a bitcoin could eat that instead of this serialised file
1569 2013-06-12 19:07:03 <michagogo> sipa: Hmm, interesting
1570 2013-06-12 19:07:04 <MC1984> which would mean no double space req
1571 2013-06-12 19:07:15 <michagogo> sipa: But it would need to be names blk00000.dat
1572 2013-06-12 19:07:22 <sipa> michagogo: symlink
1573 2013-06-12 19:07:26 <michagogo> Ahhhh
1574 2013-06-12 19:07:33 <michagogo> Interesting, so it actually is possible
1575 2013-06-12 19:07:41 <michagogo> Wouldn't have thought of that
1576 2013-06-12 19:07:50 <michagogo> Are there any possible negative repercussions?
1577 2013-06-12 19:08:04 <sipa> not afaik
1578 2013-06-12 19:08:09 <michagogo> Well, I can think of one: you can't bring the torrent up to date unless you want to reindex
1579 2013-06-12 19:08:12 <MC1984> actually id prefer block distribution within bitcoin itself just get better than piss around with that
1580 2013-06-12 19:08:19 <jgarzik> sipa, has that been tested?  brand new install with no databases + blk0000.dat + -reindex ?
1581 2013-06-12 19:08:22 <michagogo> ^^
1582 2013-06-12 19:08:31 <sipa> jgarzik: should work, yes
1583 2013-06-12 19:08:41 <michagogo> sipa: That wasn't the question :-P
1584 2013-06-12 19:08:43 <jgarzik> sipa, could certainly torrent the blocks/ dir
1585 2013-06-12 19:08:43 <sipa> jgarzik: -reindex is just deleting databases at startup anyway
1586 2013-06-12 19:09:20 <jgarzik> the main issue is inertia?  bootstrap.dat works for existing versions automatically
1587 2013-06-12 19:09:33 <jgarzik> torrenting blocks/ would require user to do more than drop files
1588 2013-06-12 19:09:47 <jgarzik> and wouldn't work for current users
1589 2013-06-12 19:10:15 <jgarzik> anyway, time for VPN testing, bbiab
1590 2013-06-12 19:10:21 <sipa> jgarzik: you can actually archive just blocks/blk*.dat + blocks/index
1591 2013-06-12 19:10:29 <sipa> jgarzik: and it will be imported at startup
1592 2013-06-12 19:10:55 <sipa> AND you can replace a current installation that already has a chainstate with that, as long as the blocks are more recent than the chainstate
1593 2013-06-12 19:10:55 <jgarzik> sipa, why blocks/index?  Would prefer untrusted startup
1594 2013-06-12 19:11:01 <sipa> jgarzik: it's untrusted
1595 2013-06-12 19:11:13 <MC1984> wow most of my prs arnet even utp
1596 2013-06-12 19:11:19 <MC1984> none of the libtorrents are
1597 2013-06-12 19:11:25 <MC1984> what is this victorian england?
1598 2013-06-12 19:11:25 <sipa> jgarzik: except transaction counts
1599 2013-06-12 19:11:30 <michagogo> jgarzik: I thought it's just chainstate that needs to be trusted?
1600 2013-06-12 19:11:32 <sipa> jgarzik: someone could lie about those :p
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1604 2013-06-12 19:15:15 chorao has joined
1605 2013-06-12 19:15:25 * jgarzik looks at his VPN, surprised he's still connected here
1606 2013-06-12 19:16:14 <nsh> 50s remaining :)
1607 2013-06-12 19:16:57 <MC1984> i think i put away about 20gb on th last one
1608 2013-06-12 19:17:34 * nsh is now seeding  (with awful upstream, but nevertheless)
1609 2013-06-12 19:17:49 <MC1984> total dl/ul 146gb/460gb
1610 2013-06-12 19:17:50 <MC1984> lol
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1623 2013-06-12 19:50:18 <bloke> What is the latest stable bitcoin client version I should be using in production ?
1624 2013-06-12 19:50:54 <sipa> 0.8.2
1625 2013-06-12 19:50:56 <SomeoneWeird> 'stable'
1626 2013-06-12 19:51:37 <bloke> thanks
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1638 2013-06-12 20:08:51 <jgarzik> apple apple apple
1639 2013-06-12 20:09:01 <jgarzik> Just like Microsoft: restart, after installing user land app
1640 2013-06-12 20:10:14 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
1641 2013-06-12 20:10:47 <sipa> pompompom
1642 2013-06-12 20:10:58 Neozonz has joined
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1645 2013-06-12 20:11:08 * Diablo-D3 listens to digital droo - developers developers developers
1646 2013-06-12 20:11:13 <SomeoneWeird> oi oi oi
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1653 2013-06-12 20:17:14 * nsh dreams of founding a utopian colony where no-one would ever have to hear about developments in the world of apple software nonsense
1654 2013-06-12 20:17:44 <Diablo-D3> nsh: actually, Im kinda glad apple is burning the iOS community down
1655 2013-06-12 20:18:01 <Diablo-D3> maybe android will decide to unfuck itself and stop being copied by iOS.
1656 2013-06-12 20:18:10 jborkl_ has left ("Leaving")
1657 2013-06-12 20:18:24 <nsh> maybe aye :)
1658 2013-06-12 20:19:18 <Diablo-D3> its weird how much shit apple cloned
1659 2013-06-12 20:19:29 <Diablo-D3> its one part android 4, one part webos, one part windows phone
1660 2013-06-12 20:20:24 <nsh> there's nothing new under the sun
1661 2013-06-12 20:21:03 <Diablo-D3> yeah buts kind of nice to see apple go back to copying everybody
1662 2013-06-12 20:21:05 <Diablo-D3> I missed that
1663 2013-06-12 20:22:49 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1664 2013-06-12 20:24:14 jgarzik has joined
1665 2013-06-12 20:24:48 <michagogo> I don't know why I'm downloading so slowly
1666 2013-06-12 20:24:58 <michagogo> only about 100 kB/s
1667 2013-06-12 20:25:00 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1668 2013-06-12 20:25:07 <michagogo> (though that's still faster than before)
1669 2013-06-12 20:25:17 jurov has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1670 2013-06-12 20:26:06 <sipa> michagogo: torrent or ibd?
1671 2013-06-12 20:26:15 <michagogo> torrent
1672 2013-06-12 20:26:21 <michagogo> Not 91.3%
1673 2013-06-12 20:26:23 <michagogo> Got*
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1682 2013-06-12 20:37:41 <jgarzik> michagogo, strange, indeed.  upload limit here for both my nodes is 250
1683 2013-06-12 20:38:09 <michagogo> Go figure... Right when I'm about to go to bed
1684 2013-06-12 20:38:14 <michagogo> It more than doubles
1685 2013-06-12 20:38:20 <kuzetsa> jgarzik: thanks for updating the bootstrap.dat torrent... the older 4.5 GB file I had is now being treated as a half-done larger file :)
1686 2013-06-12 20:38:37 <michagogo> kuzetsa: That's the idea :-D
1687 2013-06-12 20:39:15 <nsh> anyone care to volunteer views on this GAAP discussion? ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=211835.0 )
1688 2013-06-12 20:39:35 <gmaxwell> rsh: you're not LvM are you?
1689 2013-06-12 20:39:43 <sipa> s/rsh/nsh/
1690 2013-06-12 20:40:15 gjj_ has joined
1691 2013-06-12 20:40:16 <nsh> gmaxwell, i have no account or posts on bitcointalk and use no other identity than this
1692 2013-06-12 20:40:36 <nsh> (wrt bitcoin)
1693 2013-06-12 20:40:50 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1694 2013-06-12 20:41:01 <gmaxwell> I have LvM on ignore as his posts appear to be gibberish. Kjj has been responding sanely from what I recall.
1695 2013-06-12 20:41:12 <kuzetsa> Diablo-D3: (quote) "... apple is burning the iOS community down" <-- wait, what? [citation needed]
1696 2013-06-12 20:41:13 <nsh> ok
1697 2013-06-12 20:41:21 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1698 2013-06-12 20:41:31 <Diablo-D3> kuzetsa: go look at the wwdc keynote
1699 2013-06-12 20:41:35 <Diablo-D3> skip to the ios7 part
1700 2013-06-12 20:41:51 * kuzetsa googles "wwdc keynote"
1701 2013-06-12 20:43:33 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1703 2013-06-12 20:45:24 <nsh> kjj's posts are indeed useful, on further reading
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1707 2013-06-12 20:46:41 <kuzetsa> Diablo-D3: odd... I didn't see anything about "burning the iOS community" ... only info I found basically said what I already knew "once again, newest iOS is a ripoff of competing mobile platforms, including multiple sane / standard features from android open-source project"
1708 2013-06-12 20:47:32 <Diablo-D3> kuzetsa: major change in look
1709 2013-06-12 20:47:40 <kuzetsa> heh
1710 2013-06-12 20:48:01 <kuzetsa> this is off-topic
1711 2013-06-12 20:48:33 <kuzetsa> not that discussing it would change my (negative) opinion about apple very much in either direction
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1720 2013-06-12 20:59:08 <CyrusV> could help me figure out why it refuses to download any more blocks after 40686 one? debian 6 vps
1721 2013-06-12 20:59:18 <CyrusV> tried redownloading the blockain a few times.
1722 2013-06-12 20:59:56 fluidjax has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1723 2013-06-12 21:01:34 <CyrusV> anyone?
1724 2013-06-12 21:02:42 jgarzik has quit (Quit: homeward)
1725 2013-06-12 21:03:11 <gmaxwell> CyrusV: go look in the debug log.
1726 2013-06-12 21:03:19 <gmaxwell> And are you out of diskspace?
1727 2013-06-12 21:03:36 <sipa> CyrusV: which version bitcoin?
1728 2013-06-12 21:06:13 <CyrusV> checking all now, I'll reply in a min.
1729 2013-06-12 21:07:05 <CyrusV> 14.21 gb available
1730 2013-06-12 21:09:25 <sipa> should be enough; on the volume holding your homedir?
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1734 2013-06-12 21:19:34 <CyrusV> it wasn't latest version, retrying now
1735 2013-06-12 21:19:41 <CyrusV> thank you gmaxwell, sipa!
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1739 2013-06-12 21:40:39 <bloke> I'm having trouble getting a stratum server running on a mining pool. Does anyone have any advice?
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1764 2013-06-12 22:02:48 <Luke-Jr> bloke: my advice is to be more specific, perhaps with a pastebin or two
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1777 2013-06-12 22:12:54 <bloke> Cheers Luke-Jr. I'm trying to run the "stratum-mining" python code on my server (I'm not even sure if this is the best approach). I have bitcoind running and connected to testnet. When I run the stratum-server, and then get a miner to connect to my stratum server, the server receives a "mining.subscribe" message, but it doesn't look like it's responding.
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1779 2013-06-12 22:12:58 vrs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1780 2013-06-12 22:13:03 <bloke> Here's the log http://pastebin.com/M0MdFYDM
1781 2013-06-12 22:13:37 <helo> are transactions with dust-sized outputs, but large inputs (i.e. large fee) considered non-standard dust?
1782 2013-06-12 22:13:44 BenderCoin has joined
1783 2013-06-12 22:13:50 <BlueMatt> heh, pull-tester/jenkins have been down for days and no one pinged me...
1784 2013-06-12 22:14:05 <Luke-Jr> bloke: hopefully someone familiar with it might show up - in the meantime, you might consider trying out Eloipool
1785 2013-06-12 22:14:06 vrs has joined
1786 2013-06-12 22:14:06 vrs has quit (Changing host)
1787 2013-06-12 22:14:06 vrs has joined
1788 2013-06-12 22:14:09 tvbcof2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1789 2013-06-12 22:14:15 jtimon has joined
1790 2013-06-12 22:14:22 <bloke> ok. That's a complete pool implementation, right ?
1791 2013-06-12 22:14:23 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: down is better than false results it normally does :/
1792 2013-06-12 22:14:32 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: wat? its not /that/ bad
1793 2013-06-12 22:14:33 <Luke-Jr> bloke: it's a complete backend
1794 2013-06-12 22:14:37 <bloke> oh, nice
1795 2013-06-12 22:14:40 tvbcof2 has joined
1796 2013-06-12 22:14:40 <bloke> I will check it out
1797 2013-06-12 22:14:44 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: my experiences with it :p
1798 2013-06-12 22:15:05 <BlueMatt> well, maybe pull-tester just doesnt like you
1799 2013-06-12 22:15:11 jtimon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1800 2013-06-12 22:15:12 ageis has joined
1801 2013-06-12 22:15:28 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I suspect it doesn't work with daggy fixes
1802 2013-06-12 22:15:36 <BlueMatt> if (Luke-Jr && random % 2 == 0) fail();
1803 2013-06-12 22:15:53 <BlueMatt> well that too
1804 2013-06-12 22:15:55 <sipa> and static const random = 0;
1805 2013-06-12 22:16:03 <Luke-Jr> lol
1806 2013-06-12 22:16:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no type? ;)
1807 2013-06-12 22:16:37 <sipa> eh... right
1808 2013-06-12 22:16:55 rdponticelli has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1809 2013-06-12 22:17:10 <BlueMatt> na, its in python
1810 2013-06-12 22:17:22 <Luke-Jr> Python has no static nor const
1811 2013-06-12 22:17:33 phma_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1812 2013-06-12 22:17:42 <BlueMatt> "how postfinance ensures security" "Multi-level security system for login"
1813 2013-06-12 22:17:44 rdponticelli has joined
1814 2013-06-12 22:17:51 <BlueMatt> username + password
1815 2013-06-12 22:17:59 <BlueMatt> + fancy calculator that requires your card
1816 2013-06-12 22:18:02 <BlueMatt> + your pin
1817 2013-06-12 22:18:09 <BlueMatt> + challenge from the site you type in
1818 2013-06-12 22:18:18 <nsh> complete genome sequence
1819 2013-06-12 22:18:20 <BlueMatt> (needed whenever the card is used online...)
1820 2013-06-12 22:18:40 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1821 2013-06-12 22:18:41 <BlueMatt> multi-level my ass
1822 2013-06-12 22:18:53 <BlueMatt> more like more levels than anyone but a criminal can figure out
1823 2013-06-12 22:19:11 <nsh> :)
1824 2013-06-12 22:19:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: dude, you're talking about a swiss bank account
1825 2013-06-12 22:19:36 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1826 2013-06-12 22:19:43 <sipa> of course it's meant for criminals
1827 2013-06-12 22:20:36 NeuroScr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1828 2013-06-12 22:20:41 <BlueMatt> somehow I didnt see where that was going until it got there...
1829 2013-06-12 22:20:57 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1830 2013-06-12 22:21:15 metabyte has joined
1831 2013-06-12 22:21:23 <BlueMatt> anyway, no time to fix pull-tester tonight (it gets stuck) someone ping me when things break
1832 2013-06-12 22:21:56 <nsh> (could your pull-tester be run from multiple locations at once for redundancy?)
1833 2013-06-12 22:21:58 <sipa> 2.5 minutes may be a little too short
1834 2013-06-12 22:22:19 whiterabbit has joined
1835 2013-06-12 22:22:46 <BlueMatt> nsh: its not redundancy it needs, its not crashing
1836 2013-06-12 22:23:18 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1837 2013-06-12 22:23:18 <nsh> for some reason i was thinking it was a nondeterministic problem
1838 2013-06-12 22:23:21 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1839 2013-06-12 22:25:38 NeuroScr has joined
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1841 2013-06-12 22:28:22 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1842 2013-06-12 22:28:25 <BlueMatt> it all goes back to the ever-popular "something you have+something you know+something else you have+two things you wrote down+challenge-response auth"
1843 2013-06-12 22:28:43 <BlueMatt> nsh: no, its very deterministic, if it doesnt freeze
1844 2013-06-12 22:30:04 <nsh> BlueMatt, right. rather, i was thinking that what makes it freeze might not happen on another instance due to factors external to the pullreq. but there wasn't really any reason to assume that
1845 2013-06-12 22:30:17 bloke has left ()
1846 2013-06-12 22:30:19 <BlueMatt> no, thats true
1847 2013-06-12 22:30:31 <BlueMatt> but those factors should be fixed instead of investing in new hardware/servers
1848 2013-06-12 22:30:39 <nsh> indeed
1849 2013-06-12 22:35:36 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1850 2013-06-12 22:36:20 Uisgdlyast has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1851 2013-06-12 22:37:28 metabyte_ has joined
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1853 2013-06-12 22:38:57 <helo> could the 5430 satoshi dust definition conceivably be lowered in the future?
1854 2013-06-12 22:39:12 <BlueMatt> no, software cannot be changed
1855 2013-06-12 22:39:14 <helo> sorry, by lowered i meant raised, of course
1856 2013-06-12 22:39:21 metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1857 2013-06-12 22:39:21 <gmaxwell> no, software cannot be changed
1858 2013-06-12 22:39:38 <helo> good point
1859 2013-06-12 22:39:41 <sipa> ...
1860 2013-06-12 22:39:47 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1861 2013-06-12 22:39:50 <sipa> there is no "5430 satoshi dust definition"
1862 2013-06-12 22:40:03 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1863 2013-06-12 22:40:09 <gmaxwell> helo: its a blinking setting— it's just an aspect of the minimum relay setting, so @#$#@ yes. it can be different in the future.
1864 2013-06-12 22:40:11 <nsh> "that depends on what your definition of 'is' is"
1865 2013-06-12 22:40:31 <sipa> there is a "consider outputs whose marginal cost according to the current fee policy for spending is above 1/3 of their value, dust"
1866 2013-06-12 22:40:32 <helo> my bad... was referring to gavin's "This pull defines 'uneconomic dust' as 54.3 uBTC (5430 satoshis, about $0.007 at current prices)"
1867 2013-06-12 22:40:36 <sipa> there is no hardcoded constant
1868 2013-06-12 22:40:41 <BlueMatt> also, its not 5430, its 5461
1869 2013-06-12 22:40:54 <sipa> if you change the fee policy yourself, the dust definition changes with it
1870 2013-06-12 22:41:11 monkeynipples has joined
1871 2013-06-12 22:42:09 <helo> i was just thinking about how to choose a safe size for a colored coin that controlled access to a highly valued asset that would guarantee that it could be transferred.
1872 2013-06-12 22:42:32 BenderCoin has joined
1873 2013-06-12 22:42:47 <gmaxwell> helo: there is no such value, never was.
1874 2013-06-12 22:43:05 <melvster> wait, does that mean dust cant even be spent with a tx fee included?
1875 2013-06-12 22:43:13 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1876 2013-06-12 22:43:13 <helo> melvster: it seems so
1877 2013-06-12 22:43:18 <gmaxwell> No.
1878 2013-06-12 22:43:19 <gmaxwell> jesus.
1879 2013-06-12 22:43:24 <gmaxwell> Why must you all be stupid.
1880 2013-06-12 22:43:34 <gmaxwell> This has nothing to do with _spending_, only _creating_.
1881 2013-06-12 22:44:00 <helo> gmaxwell: i'm just going based on gavin's pull request that says "any transaction with outputs less than 5430 satoshis as non-standard (won't be relayed, won't be mined)"
1882 2013-06-12 22:44:21 owowo has joined
1883 2013-06-12 22:44:32 <gmaxwell> nodes won't relay transactions which create outputs which have values less than they'd cost to redeem.   Should one get created, you can happily consume it (if you want to lose money doing so)
1884 2013-06-12 22:45:04 <gmaxwell> The system just strongly discourages the creation of outputs which are uneconomical to redeem, a kind of defacto unspendablity.
1885 2013-06-12 22:45:22 Guest18518 has joined
1886 2013-06-12 22:45:46 <helo> that wording led me to believe that a transaction with 10btc in inputs, and 0.00000001 in outputs (the colored coin) wouldn't be relayed, because it has "outputs less than 5430 satoshis"
1887 2013-06-12 22:46:19 pooler has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1888 2013-06-12 22:46:23 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
1889 2013-06-12 22:46:25 <melvster> helo: how much are your colored coins worth, out of interest?
1890 2013-06-12 22:46:58 <gmaxwell> helo: Which is correct and not at all what you and melvster were saying above.
1891 2013-06-12 22:47:04 Guest18518 is now known as Uisgdlyast_
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1894 2013-06-12 22:48:10 <gmaxwell> helo: the network now attempts to discourage creating outputs which cost the recipent more to redeem than they are apparently worth.
1895 2013-06-12 22:48:13 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1896 2013-06-12 22:50:51 <helo> why aren't the attached fees used to evaluate the apparent worth?
1897 2013-06-12 22:51:25 <helo> given that colored coin means the actual worth can be arbitrarily high relative to its apparent worth
1898 2013-06-12 22:51:39 <helo> (when apparent is only based on output size)
1899 2013-06-12 22:52:38 <gmaxwell> helo: because those fees don't help someone spend the uneconomical output left behind
1900 2013-06-12 22:52:56 paracyst has joined
1901 2013-06-12 22:53:23 <gmaxwell> helo: and people can happily provide fees that support an economical activity also included in the transaction, while the transaction adds perpetual unredeemable bloat to the utxo set as a side effect.
1902 2013-06-12 22:55:47 pooler has joined
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1904 2013-06-12 22:56:00 <melvster> helo: it was a controversial change
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1911 2013-06-12 22:59:47 <melvster> really if you pay enough fee, you should be able to create dust
1912 2013-06-12 23:00:21 <sipa> you're not paying me, but you're filling my disk
1913 2013-06-12 23:00:48 metabyte_ is now known as metabyte
1914 2013-06-12 23:01:02 <sipa> i have every right to run a node that discourages behaviour which seems not in the best interest of the network (which is why i run a node for free)
1915 2013-06-12 23:01:20 <sipa> and since 0.8.2, the software does such discouragement by default
1916 2013-06-12 23:02:43 <melvster> sipa: but dont large blocks also use disk?  why is the uxto so much more price sensitive?
1917 2013-06-12 23:03:18 <sipa> every full node needs to keep the utxo set available in fast indexed storage
1918 2013-06-12 23:03:32 <sipa> you don't need to store blocks
1919 2013-06-12 23:04:35 <sipa> outputs that are uneconomical to consume will likely just be forgotten and remain in the utxo set forever
1920 2013-06-12 23:04:50 <melvster> sipa: dont you just need the uxto to cover the addresses you are putting into the next block(s)?
1921 2013-06-12 23:04:52 * amiller_ grumbles
1922 2013-06-12 23:05:00 <sipa> wut?
1923 2013-06-12 23:05:02 * nsh blinks
1924 2013-06-12 23:05:11 <nsh> i just whois'd you at the very moment you grumbled amiller_
1925 2013-06-12 23:05:17 <nsh> how strange
1926 2013-06-12 23:05:18 <melvster> lol
1927 2013-06-12 23:05:25 <sipa> melvster: that makes no sense
1928 2013-06-12 23:05:40 <sipa> the utxo set is necessary for validation of blocks and transactions
1929 2013-06-12 23:05:45 <sipa> the most essential task of the network
1930 2013-06-12 23:05:46 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1931 2013-06-12 23:05:56 <melvster> sipa: let me reask the question, sorry.  Why do you need every value in the uxto, as a full node, or is that just by definition?
1932 2013-06-12 23:06:13 <gmaxwell> melvster: you need to validate blocks, it has ~nothing to do with creating a block.
1933 2013-06-12 23:06:29 <nsh> was about to ask you what would be a good place to start reading to understand the ideas in the discussion with yourself and etotheipi about possible data structures for parallel utxo storage
1934 2013-06-12 23:06:30 <sipa> melvster: well what if you see a transaction that consumes an input you don't know
1935 2013-06-12 23:06:44 <melvster> gmaxwell: thanks for the correction, that makes sense
1936 2013-06-12 23:06:49 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1937 2013-06-12 23:06:50 <sipa> melvster: remember that you must independently end up with the same conclusion about its validity as the rest of the network
1938 2013-06-12 23:06:57 one_zero has joined
1939 2013-06-12 23:06:57 <gmaxwell> When a block shows up and claims to send a billion btc output to some other location, you need to know that the billion btc output previously existed, and what its rules were, etc.
1940 2013-06-12 23:06:58 <melvster> got it
1941 2013-06-12 23:07:01 <gmaxwell> K.
1942 2013-06-12 23:07:13 <melvster> so i should have said, "verifying and creating" blocks
1943 2013-06-12 23:07:36 <sipa> creation of blocks is just trying to satisfy the rules enforced by full nodes on the network
1944 2013-06-12 23:07:37 <melvster> ie if the dust is very unlikely to get spent, you probably dont need it on our disk?
1945 2013-06-12 23:07:47 <melvster> except for in a freak event
1946 2013-06-12 23:07:47 <sipa> what will you do with it then?
1947 2013-06-12 23:09:03 <melvster> i guess it depends how the data is packed
1948 2013-06-12 23:09:15 <sipa> it's stored very compactly
1949 2013-06-12 23:09:16 <melvster> maybe you cant reclaim the space in some cases
1950 2013-06-12 23:09:21 <sipa> but you haven't answered my question
1951 2013-06-12 23:09:39 tyn has joined
1952 2013-06-12 23:09:47 <sipa> if you think you don't need it on your disk, what will you do with it instead?
1953 2013-06-12 23:09:59 <melvster> if something is never going to be needed, i guess you can leave it out of our data strucure *in theory*
1954 2013-06-12 23:10:06 <sipa> absolutely not
1955 2013-06-12 23:10:15 <sipa> if that's the case, i create a block with a ton of dust outputs
1956 2013-06-12 23:10:19 <sipa> and then try to spend them
1957 2013-06-12 23:10:29 <sipa> and see the network split in a thousand pieces
1958 2013-06-12 23:10:42 <sipa> as they won't agree which spends where valid anymore
1959 2013-06-12 23:11:26 <devrandom> you could have a bloom filter for the dust, and agree to blocks that spend dust under a certain amount which hits the table
1960 2013-06-12 23:11:40 <devrandom> (sorry for the run-on sentence)
1961 2013-06-12 23:11:42 <nsh> as some jewish hippy once said "you'll always have the poor"
1962 2013-06-12 23:12:12 <devrandom> sipa: so you always err on the side of accepting
1963 2013-06-12 23:12:14 <sipa> devrandom: a bloom table, you mean?
1964 2013-06-12 23:12:21 <devrandom> yeah
1965 2013-06-12 23:12:34 <sipa> it's not just knowing whether it existed or not, you also need the output that was associated with it
1966 2013-06-12 23:12:39 <melvster> sipa: I should clarify "leave them out" ... i meant more have them archived and available at a cost, rather than gone for all time
1967 2013-06-12 23:12:57 <sipa> melvster: ok, then it becomes a DoS attack on the network when you try to spend a ton of dust
1968 2013-06-12 23:13:07 <devrandom> the output is the index into the table
1969 2013-06-12 23:13:24 <sipa> as the block suddenly takes an order of magnitude longer to verify, and thus to propagate
1970 2013-06-12 23:13:49 <gmaxwell> devrandom: great so now I can create random forks by producing a block that has invalid inputs that match popular bloom filters.
1971 2013-06-12 23:13:52 <Luke-Jr> if we keep a copy of the UTXO set in blocks, you could verify the latest block's UTXO set and trust it later
1972 2013-06-12 23:14:21 <sipa> basically every optimization you do to make some assumed-to-be-more-common cases faster, results in an attack when someone deliberately does uncommon things
1973 2013-06-12 23:14:39 <phantomcircuit> sigh
1974 2013-06-12 23:14:41 <melvster> sipa: yes i understand, it's cost benefit
1975 2013-06-12 23:14:48 <phantomcircuit> lol tor, the client chooses the rendevouz point
1976 2013-06-12 23:14:53 <gmaxwell> moreover, because of the cost of these 'displaced' outputs, people have no idea if an output they create will ever actually be redeemable. How is this _AT ALL_ an improvement over a network that simply discourages people from creating outputs which are on their face economically irrational to redeem?
1977 2013-06-12 23:16:34 <melvster> i think it's reasonable for the node to decide which members of he uxto it wants to store
1978 2013-06-12 23:16:43 <sipa> it's not
1979 2013-06-12 23:16:48 * nsh blinks
1980 2013-06-12 23:16:57 <nsh> the node has to be a compliant part of the bitcoin network
1981 2013-06-12 23:16:57 <sipa> a full node has no choice - it _must_ have access to the full utxo set
1982 2013-06-12 23:17:00 <nsh> that's not really voluntary
1983 2013-06-12 23:17:11 <gmaxwell> It isn't, Bitcoin is a consensus system. The thing we're gaining consensus over is the entirity of the UTXO set.
1984 2013-06-12 23:17:27 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1985 2013-06-12 23:17:30 <sipa> it can encourage and discourage things which keep the UTXO set manageable
1986 2013-06-12 23:17:57 <sipa> but that's the extent of its influence
1987 2013-06-12 23:18:45 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1988 2013-06-12 23:18:53 <gmaxwell> If it helps it all make sense in your mind— you can think of refusing to process txn which create new uneconomical outputs as just a form of deciding which utxo you want to store— but its done in a way which doesn't endanger consensus over the utxo set.
1989 2013-06-12 23:19:00 <melvster> sipa: let's say there was a clearly unspendable output, why would a full node need to store that theoretically (aside from compression/serialization issues)
1990 2013-06-12 23:19:21 <sipa> melvster: if it's _provably_ unspendable, there is no problem
1991 2013-06-12 23:19:27 <gmaxwell> melvster: Mine doesn't. When is an actually impossible to spend OP_RETURN, for example.
1992 2013-06-12 23:19:34 <maaku> melvster: you're changing subjects. you haven't been talking about clearly unspendable outputs
1993 2013-06-12 23:20:08 <gmaxwell> ones which are provably unspendable are a non-issue. Those are fine. (kinda stupid, perhaps— but even that is another matter)
1994 2013-06-12 23:20:15 <sipa> melvster: anything that is not provably unspendably, is theoretically spendable, and you must be prepared to validate something that does
1995 2013-06-12 23:20:20 <maaku> and btw, I would appreciate an official, deterministic method for determining if a script is provably unspendable
1996 2013-06-12 23:20:20 MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1997 2013-06-12 23:20:36 <Luke-Jr> maaku: if scriptPubKey[0] == OP_RETURN
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1999 2013-06-12 23:20:42 <maaku> i'd integrate that into the utxo index so that provably unspendable outputs are dropped
2000 2013-06-12 23:20:44 <melvster> maaku: sorry typing and working things out in my head at the same time ... im still getting used to some of the terms, ill try to be accurate, my original comment was that if the fee is high enough you should be able to create dust, im thinking that through
2001 2013-06-12 23:20:57 Maxvalor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2002 2013-06-12 23:21:00 Max has joined
2003 2013-06-12 23:21:03 <sipa> melvster: and you can
2004 2013-06-12 23:21:11 <sipa> melvster: but my node will node relay that
2005 2013-06-12 23:21:16 <maaku> Luke-Jr: is that exhaustive?
2006 2013-06-12 23:21:21 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2007 2013-06-12 23:21:22 KillYourTV has joined
2008 2013-06-12 23:21:22 <Luke-Jr> maaku: ?
2009 2013-06-12 23:21:28 <gmaxwell> maaku: exaustive is impossible.
2010 2013-06-12 23:21:34 <melvster> sipa: will relay that, or will NOT relay that?
2011 2013-06-12 23:21:55 <gmaxwell> maaku: the number of provable unspendable outputs (for a sufficiently powerful prover) is uncountably infinite.
2012 2013-06-12 23:21:57 <sipa> melvster: you're doing something that according to me harms the network, so i will not relay a transaction that creates dust
2013 2013-06-12 23:22:08 Max is now known as AFK!~maxvalor@68-186-192-173.dhcp.unas.al.charter.com|MaxValor
2014 2013-06-12 23:22:16 <sipa> melvster: but i cannot prevent you from creating it, and i cannot prevent a miner from accepting that if you pay them enough
2015 2013-06-12 23:22:24 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, really?
2016 2013-06-12 23:22:24 <melvster> sipa: got it, i think you missed out the word NOT above ^^
2017 2013-06-12 23:22:32 <sipa> melvster: indeed!
2018 2013-06-12 23:22:39 <maaku> sorry, I meant does that include all current approaches to creating unspendable outputs?
2019 2013-06-12 23:22:39 <runeks> BlueMatt: With regards to bitcoind running on an armhf system. What were the errors you say you experienced with this? I have bitcoind running on my Pi now. What should I be looking for? Errors in debug.log, or outright crashes?
2020 2013-06-12 23:22:52 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: at least if you pretend the script length encoding allows infinite sized scripts.
2021 2013-06-12 23:23:00 <Luke-Jr> maaku: I'm not aware of any existing attempts to create unspendable outputs
2022 2013-06-12 23:23:01 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i figured it would be possible to walk all the possible execution branches and then walk backwards to see if the condition could be met
2023 2013-06-12 23:23:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oh yeah assuming it doesn't
2024 2013-06-12 23:23:20 <Luke-Jr> maaku: the closest I know of is p2pool which was last I checked not provably unspendable
2025 2013-06-12 23:23:27 <phantomcircuit> since the protocol actually doesn't
2026 2013-06-12 23:23:29 <sipa> maaku: that's sort of the proposed standard way of creating provably unspendable outputs
2027 2013-06-12 23:23:33 <Luke-Jr> (in fact, it may be, that's it's anyone-can-spend)
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2029 2013-06-12 23:23:52 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you can construct a script in which proving its spendability requires solving a hard problem
2030 2013-06-12 23:24:11 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: but a sufficiently smart prover could solve it. It's just not realisitcally possible to be exhaustive.
2031 2013-06-12 23:24:44 <melvster> sipa: im just saying there's a cost / benefit argument here, you may want to relay dust if he tx fee you are getting is high enough, in other cases you may decide that it harms the network
2032 2013-06-12 23:24:56 <sipa> melvster: i am never getting a fee
2033 2013-06-12 23:25:09 <melvster> someone gets it
2034 2013-06-12 23:25:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: maybe you are ;)
2035 2013-06-12 23:25:20 <gmaxwell> melvster: yes, sure and thats their problem.
2036 2013-06-12 23:25:30 <sipa> melvster: miners are, and they have all interest in mining transactions that pay them (even if creating dust)
2037 2013-06-12 23:25:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, right well i guess you would write something that did it's best and just gave up after some relatively short period of time
2038 2013-06-12 23:25:44 <sipa> melvster: that doesn't mean that i have any reason to help them doing so
2039 2013-06-12 23:25:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not all interest, no
2040 2013-06-12 23:25:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: agree
2041 2013-06-12 23:26:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: as long as relays are dropping them, that means they won't be in mempool either
2042 2013-06-12 23:26:04 <Luke-Jr> which has a cost
2043 2013-06-12 23:26:44 <Luke-Jr> it's too bad miners can't broadcast lower proofs of work to force mempool caching against IsStandard :/
2044 2013-06-12 23:26:49 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you can't use that if you are planning on having a normative utxo commitment hash.
2045 2013-06-12 23:27:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: since that rule itself becomes a part of the commitment hash behavior.
2046 2013-06-12 23:27:40 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: So you need a trivial rule like "first item on the stack is OP_RETURN" that is very easy to get right.
2047 2013-06-12 23:27:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i wasn't following the previous part of the conversation, "commitment hash" meaning a hash of the UTXO in the block?
2048 2013-06-12 23:28:04 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2049 2013-06-12 23:28:07 <maaku> phantomcircuit: yes
2050 2013-06-12 23:28:16 <phantomcircuit> ah
2051 2013-06-12 23:28:21 <phantomcircuit> yeah that would be an issue there
2052 2013-06-12 23:28:26 <gmaxwell> maaku: there was a proposal on this that I think was lost in shedpainting land.
2053 2013-06-12 23:28:48 <maaku> gmaxwell: yes, I remember it (related to fidelity bonds, yes?)
2054 2013-06-12 23:29:00 <maaku> i just didn't/don't know if there are other proposals out there too
2055 2013-06-12 23:33:48 <melvster> back to helo 's original question : so this makes colored coins much less divisible then, in fact makes all of bitcoin much less divisible, instead of the 2.1 quadrillion it's a bit more like 400 billion?
2056 2013-06-12 23:34:11 <melvster> if i did my sums right ...
2057 2013-06-12 23:36:08 <gmaxwell> melvster: Nah, it doesn't.
2058 2013-06-12 23:37:23 <gmaxwell> melvster: It isn't a protocol rule, it's just set to a fraction of the fee that people require for relay. In the future as people set that to lower btc values (assuming bitcoin goes up in value) then the permitted output size will go down along with it.
2059 2013-06-12 23:38:50 <Luke-Jr> it's like a transaction fee, but you get to keep it ;)
2060 2013-06-12 23:39:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, which will hopefully coincide with the cost of computers necessary to process that volume of data drop
2061 2013-06-12 23:39:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Indeed. Or "you pay it forward so that the output can be redeemed"
2062 2013-06-12 23:40:02 <Luke-Jr> in fact, maybe clients should use the classic mandatory-fee prompt for this, and add it to the outputs..
2063 2013-06-12 23:40:14 <nsh> Homer: [pause] Yeah, that's right, Barney. This year, I invested in pumpkins. They've been going up the whole month of October and I got a feeling they're going to peak right around January. Then, bang! That's when I'll cash in.
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2065 2013-06-12 23:40:48 <melvster> mmmmm pump-kins
2066 2013-06-12 23:41:58 <melvster> it's an interesting asymmetry that moore's law is factored in to the block chain but not so much the uxto
2067 2013-06-12 23:42:36 <melvster> then again i guess it's easier to discard old blocks than existing outputs
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2069 2013-06-12 23:45:25 <melvster> so i see the motivation for blocking dust creation, and im sort of swayed that it was a good idea, but i still think for high tx fees, miners should be able to make an exception, because he colored coins may be worth more than the fee
2070 2013-06-12 23:45:44 <melvster> well i suppose they can already
2071 2013-06-12 23:46:02 <melvster> but maybe not as a command line param
2072 2013-06-12 23:48:26 <melvster> what fascinates me is whether a corrupt set of devs could introduce a change so contentious that it would fork the system ... im starting to think that may be impossible as the miners would revolt ...
2073 2013-06-12 23:49:05 <gmaxwell> miners? huh?
2074 2013-06-12 23:49:28 <gmaxwell> I suspect you might be mistaking "miners" as some kind of authority in charge of the system. This is a common misunderstanding.
2075 2013-06-12 23:51:04 <gmaxwell> But really all miners— in their capacity as miners— do is order transactions (upto and including the ability to perpetually delay them). They are subject to the rules imposed by all the other users of the network.
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2078 2013-06-12 23:52:21 <melvster> gmaxwell: other users on the network, that primarily being other miners?
2079 2013-06-12 23:53:06 <gmaxwell> No. Miners are minority of the systems users.
2080 2013-06-12 23:53:18 <melvster> so the clients too...
2081 2013-06-12 23:53:33 <gmaxwell> Presumably if they only had to satisify themselves they would have just kept the subsidy at 50 BTC forever. :P
2082 2013-06-12 23:53:43 <melvster> O_o
2083 2013-06-12 23:54:03 <melvster> surely the price would have dived then?
2084 2013-06-12 23:54:49 <melvster> so the core devs are more important than the miners ... what if someone launches a 51% on the core devs? ....
2085 2013-06-12 23:54:54 <gmaxwell> You're missing the point. The miners _cannot_ do that because all other nodes impose all of the rules.
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2087 2013-06-12 23:55:26 <gmaxwell> What does "core devs" have anything to do with this? We don't have blind autoupdate for a reason, we have permissively licensed open source software for a reason, etc.
2088 2013-06-12 23:56:27 <melvster> s/core devs/dev community consensus/ ?
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2090 2013-06-12 23:56:37 <gmaxwell> The whole point of this convoluted system is to remove centeralization. Anything you could point to and say it is imporant would be a _flaw_, the system is designed to minimize and failing that to check and balance these things.
2091 2013-06-12 23:56:59 <gmaxwell> melvster: yea, for some wide enough definition of that... Sure, but you still need to convince people to run the resulting software.
2092 2013-06-12 23:57:08 <gmaxwell> E.g. people can all still stick with older versions.
2093 2013-06-12 23:57:57 <gmaxwell> (and, presumably, people who thought it was a bad idea would be advocating not to run the software)
2094 2013-06-12 23:58:31 <melvster> gmaxwell: i dont disagree ... but the nodes would have to decide en masse ... a contentious change could be divisive
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2096 2013-06-12 23:59:11 <melvster> maybe im overly paraniod