1 2013-06-13 00:00:24 <gmaxwell> People aren't just playing the surface game, "what I like best". Everyone clueful recognizes that _consensus_ is the utmost importance.
   2 2013-06-13 00:00:47 <melvster> gmaxwell: it stands to reason that there are some changes that everyone will want, some changes that no one would want, and some that are right in the middle ... if you could game the developer consensus system to adopt a plausible change that is somewhere in the middle, you could cause havoc ... how do we defend against that vector?
   3 2013-06-13 00:00:57 <gmaxwell> And this isn't unique to bitcoin— the world is full of norms and standards which only work by virtue of people choosing to do the consistent thing.
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   5 2013-06-13 00:01:19 <gmaxwell> melvster: because something "right in the middle" is something no one wants, of course.
   6 2013-06-13 00:01:43 <melvster> gmaxwell: i do a lot of work with standards, they are continously gamed ... famously with microsoft back i the browser wars, but it continues till toda
   7 2013-06-13 00:01:44 <melvster> y
   8 2013-06-13 00:01:52 <gmaxwell> I suggest that in fact your three cases reduce to two, because we're all smart enough to reconize that the absolute worse case situation for the system— worse than any flaw or bug, is a 50/50 split.
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  10 2013-06-13 00:02:41 <gmaxwell> melvster: The ecosystem of browser is not something whos entire value comes from consensus (in fact, the opposite— diversity has value there)
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  12 2013-06-13 00:02:59 <melvster> browser was only one example
  13 2013-06-13 00:03:11 <melvster> i know of almost no standard that is not subject to politics
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  15 2013-06-13 00:03:28 <melvster> and sometimes the worst kinds ...
  16 2013-06-13 00:03:36 <gmaxwell> You're still ignoring the point I made above that your middle option doesn't actually exist.
  17 2013-06-13 00:04:11 <melvster> gmaxwell: sorry im pondering it ... so the fork scenario no one would want to see, then it becomes binary
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  20 2013-06-13 00:04:58 <gmaxwell> melvster: I think this likely creates a huge status-quo bias, but we'll see.
  21 2013-06-13 00:05:08 <melvster> gmaxwell: companies are very well versed in gaming the standards process and gaming he developer consensus process these days, there's even books about it
  22 2013-06-13 00:05:40 <phantomcircuit> melvster, you'd have to game everybody pretty much to hard fork
  23 2013-06-13 00:05:51 <phantomcircuit> miners and the vast majority of users
  24 2013-06-13 00:06:02 <phantomcircuit> since you're creating something new
  25 2013-06-13 00:06:08 <melvster> gmaxwell: i totally agree with you, im just thinking about devils advocate, if someone wanted to attack bitcoin, could they construct a consensus driven rule change
  26 2013-06-13 00:07:21 <melvster> phantomcircuit: consider the bank bail outs and quantitative easing, both were something new, yet it was relatively easy to get that through ...
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  30 2013-06-13 00:09:20 <melvster> phantomcircuit: so what you'd need to do if you were an evil consensus gamer, would be to game developer consensus to make an *unpopular* change ... but one that was likely to be adopted by at least 20% of users ... the oher 80% would have to reluctantly fall into line or lose everything
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  32 2013-06-13 00:11:12 <melvster> or maybe the 20% would lose everything
  33 2013-06-13 00:11:21 <gmaxwell> melvster: that doesn't make sense
  34 2013-06-13 00:11:38 <gmaxwell> there isn't some hard line between users and developers for totally open and openly developed software.
  35 2013-06-13 00:12:05 <melvster> gmaxwell: im not articulating it ver well ... the principle is a divide and conquer attack based on gaming developer consensus
  36 2013-06-13 00:12:33 <gmaxwell> you can make an unpopular change, and then people won't use it
  37 2013-06-13 00:12:53 <gmaxwell> even if you convince all of the active developers of something almost all the users hate... well then those developers stop being relevant.
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  39 2013-06-13 00:15:24 <melvster> gmaxwell: that's not how consensus works, consider the war in iraq was popular with those in charge, and unpopular with the people
  40 2013-06-13 00:15:56 <phantomcircuit> this isnt a war
  41 2013-06-13 00:16:00 <melvster> lol
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  43 2013-06-13 00:16:47 <maaku> melvster: the people are in charge here
  44 2013-06-13 00:17:09 <maaku> no one can force a hard-fork change on you. period.
  45 2013-06-13 00:17:47 <gmaxwell> melvster: you're confused about authority still
  46 2013-06-13 00:18:06 <gmaxwell> You're desperately trying to pin-the-authority-tail-on-the-bitcoin-donkey here, I think.
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  49 2013-06-13 00:18:59 <nsh> (that game doesn't go down very well at children's birthday parties)
  50 2013-06-13 00:18:59 <melvster> gmaxwell: im constructing a possible attack scenario, then looking at feasibility, then looking to see whether it's worth defending against
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  52 2013-06-13 00:19:55 <midnightmagic> melvster: Your roughly-sketched outline of a trust attack is already taking place.
  53 2013-06-13 00:19:59 <gmaxwell> melvster: except that you're not, you're waving your arms with vague and inapplicable parallels. Your golf war thing existed because there was a central authority in charge that could be convinced to act in a manner at odds with the will of the public.
  54 2013-06-13 00:20:01 <midnightmagic> like right now.
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  56 2013-06-13 00:20:10 <nsh> i'd call it non-mammalian navel-gazing...
  57 2013-06-13 00:20:14 <nsh> midnightmagic, how?
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  59 2013-06-13 00:20:30 <gmaxwell> I wish you luck.
  60 2013-06-13 00:20:56 <melvster> trust is always subject to black swans
  61 2013-06-13 00:21:24 <gmaxwell> The eagle flies at midnight.
  62 2013-06-13 00:22:00 <midnightmagic> nsh: mircea_popescu is putting a significant amount of money towards a trust attack on the bitcoin developers, and is gaining a surprising amount of traction with people whose pockets are lined by his activities in mpex (and other places with axes to grind.) They just haven't focused their trust-based attack into tangible action yet. I would say he's testing the reputational waters (and failing.) But the attack is there.
  63 2013-06-13 00:22:26 <midnightmagic> (limp an ineffective though it may currently be)
  64 2013-06-13 00:22:32 <nsh> oh... that's something to keep an eye on, at the very least
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  69 2013-06-13 00:23:05 <gmaxwell> Hopefully he wants to be stuck with keeping this stuff running. "be careful what you ask for"
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  71 2013-06-13 00:24:17 <midnightmagic> that would be unpleasant.
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  74 2013-06-13 00:25:33 <melvster> btw i hope i dont come across as ungrateful, i know devs put in a lot of time an effort often at no pay
  75 2013-06-13 00:25:56 <melvster> it's not my opinion that we are in immanent danger
  76 2013-06-13 00:26:06 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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  79 2013-06-13 00:26:14 <girl> hello we must nupdate  your compte in chase by this link o k http://goo.gl/GNiDw
  80 2013-06-13 00:26:19 girl has quit (Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
  81 2013-06-13 00:26:30 <melvster> lol
  82 2013-06-13 00:28:04 <midnightmagic> melvster: It's a feedback loop. The developers' own bitcoins wouldn't be worth what they are without users using bitcoin; the users using bitcoins would use them without the developers building the infrastructure. Through cooperative efforts, I think we enrich each other.
  83 2013-06-13 00:28:16 <midnightmagic> er..  wouldn't.
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  85 2013-06-13 00:28:19 <midnightmagic> :)
  86 2013-06-13 00:28:25 <melvster> sure
  87 2013-06-13 00:28:46 <gmaxwell> I mean there is a ~zillion page thread on the forum because some fool who hasn't written a single public line of code in his life— as far as I can tell— are calling all of the core developers incompetent because someplace sometime jgarzik said that there is a time and place for goto.  If mircea_popescu and his poo flinging army think they can do a better job— please be my gues— do better work for totally free so I don't have to!
  88 2013-06-13 00:29:07 <melvster> lmao
  89 2013-06-13 00:29:15 <melvster> there *is* a time and place for goto
  90 2013-06-13 00:29:35 <melvster> goto is used all the time in assembler and embedded systems
  91 2013-06-13 00:29:44 <melvster> in fact it's probably in your asics
  92 2013-06-13 00:30:21 <melvster> and any code that's compiled may well have a bunch of goto's i it
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  94 2013-06-13 00:32:37 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I don't think -lmcheck works on threaded programs :x
  95 2013-06-13 00:32:58 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: It's ridiculous. Cooperation nets us all significantly more than the alternatives. I don't think the fantasyland they're living in makes much sense unless we all agree to presume human nature is fundamentally evil on average.
  96 2013-06-13 00:33:17 <Luke-Jr>  human nature is fundamentally evil <-- this is true
  97 2013-06-13 00:34:12 <midnightmagic> It is not, until stressors, culture, or survival make it so.
  98 2013-06-13 00:34:32 <rdponticelli> Human nature is incentived to become evil by an fundamentally evil system
  99 2013-06-13 00:35:04 <Luke-Jr> it's not debatable
 100 2013-06-13 00:35:13 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I'm sure it's just a boring monkey power game. If you fling enough poo eventually people will have to appease you to make you stop.
 101 2013-06-13 00:35:18 <melvster> midnightmagic: the number of countries that are divided 50/50 on two reasonable sounding political parties is very high ... i dont imagine that it's impossible to construct a set of talking points that could be used as a divide and conquer
 102 2013-06-13 00:35:32 <rdponticelli> Agreed it's pointless to debate that
 103 2013-06-13 00:36:38 <melvster> it seems easier than launching a 51% attack on the network
 104 2013-06-13 00:36:38 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I haven't figured out yet whether it is better to do what it takes to redirect said poo, or to directly oppose it.
 105 2013-06-13 00:37:04 <melvster> midnightmagic: never respond to a troll
 106 2013-06-13 00:37:41 <midnightmagic> melvster: I personally think that's a result of the voting mechanism, strategic voting, and human tribalism.
 107 2013-06-13 00:38:01 <melvster> in a consensus based system, technical objections can be made, though often that can be a single objection
 108 2013-06-13 00:38:44 <midnightmagic> melvster: I kickban them all the time from #bitcoin. There are many ways to oppose it without actually meeting them on their own insane turf.
 109 2013-06-13 00:39:04 <nsh> amiller_, where can i read about such things as merkle search structures in a reasonable-accessible language?
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 111 2013-06-13 00:39:39 <nsh> *reasonably
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 114 2013-06-13 00:40:05 <gmaxwell> mircea_popescu's inability to regulate his behavior has gotten him excluded from a number of forums, I assume his community relevance would be much closer to zero if not for the odditiy that he provides a valuable service that no one saner will provide because its likely unlawful.
 115 2013-06-13 00:40:51 <melvster> which service?
 116 2013-06-13 00:41:00 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 117 2013-06-13 00:41:02 <gmaxwell> a bitcoin stock market.
 118 2013-06-13 00:41:56 <gmaxwell> (which became popular after the large one, GLBSE went through a panic shutdown after supposedly being threatned by unidentified authorities)
 119 2013-06-13 00:42:27 <melvster> ah got it
 120 2013-06-13 00:42:40 <melvster> a nice idea ... in a way
 121 2013-06-13 00:42:58 <gmaxwell> it's a fun idea at least, though any such effort is always stuff full of fraud.
 122 2013-06-13 00:43:04 <midnightmagic> I thought glbse was shut down because dude finally talked to a lawyer and his lawyer scared the pants off him.
 123 2013-06-13 00:43:18 <melvster> lol
 124 2013-06-13 00:43:27 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9939
 125 2013-06-13 00:43:34 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I think the specifics were really really unclear. Certantly the pants scared off part seemd clear enough!
 126 2013-06-13 00:45:11 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: :-)  there's a pastebin floating around somewhere of one of the last conversations between the investors with two or three of the names blanked out that's pretty interesting, but of course not filled with specific detail about the shutdown itself (only of interhuman relationships and historical fact.)
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 129 2013-06-13 00:48:34 <melvster> a stock market is a good idea
 130 2013-06-13 00:48:57 <nospinzy> fucking blockchain keeps crashing wont let me verify addresses when i have to verify a couple hundred at a time
 131 2013-06-13 00:49:17 <warren> nospinzy: use something else?
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 154 2013-06-13 01:37:29 <nospinzy> is there a way to find out how a person sent bitcoins
 155 2013-06-13 01:37:30 <nospinzy> what client
 156 2013-06-13 01:38:27 <nsh> how do you mean, nospinzy?
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 166 2013-06-13 01:59:16 <helo> sorry to resume this after being absent for so long... but if fees are considered in making a non-standard dust transaction standard, it isn't true that it isn't in the best interest of the network. those fees go to increase the security of the network, don't they? (re sipa "i have every right to run a node that discourages behaviour which seems not in the best interest of the network"
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 169 2013-06-13 02:01:31 <helo> in the case of colored bitcoin, the value of a utxo can be higher than its exchange rate, it could represent ownership of anything (and so be of arbitrarily high value)... so higher fees would be feasible, which would seem to pay for more network security
 170 2013-06-13 02:02:51 <nsh> in that case, i suppose people supporting coloured coins will have to form a connected subgraph to avoid relaying problems
 171 2013-06-13 02:03:11 <nsh> which is pretty democratic really
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 173 2013-06-13 02:03:51 <gmaxwell> helo: you're not saying anything useful there, you're just reiterating the rut you're stuck in.
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 175 2013-06-13 02:04:42 <gmaxwell> helo: it's also very strongly in the interest of the network that the utxo is not filled up with abandoned (either unspendable data storage txns or worthless and eventually key lost) txouts, or at least that the rate that this happens is moderated.
 176 2013-06-13 02:05:09 <gmaxwell> helo: you can happily still have your colored coin whatever, just use enough btc value that the resulting txout isn't worthless to redeem on btc grounds.
 177 2013-06-13 02:05:49 <gmaxwell> helo: and this avoids the maximally pessimal outcome where nodes on their own, due to totally opaque heuristics, simply make those txouts _unspendable_ rather than difficult to create.
 178 2013-06-13 02:06:49 <helo> how do i determine that a particular amount of btc value is sufficient for such a use? i.e. a transaction sending it will be relayed
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 188 2013-06-13 02:08:09 <helo> i guess coloring rules would allow non-colored bitcoin to be combined with the colored bitcoin so that the output is high enough?
 189 2013-06-13 02:08:15 <gmaxwell> helo: failing all other mechenisms you observe the network. If it fails you can always resend. This is vastly superior to the _unspendable_ outcome where some utxo gets stuck forever because a majority of the network purged it.
 190 2013-06-13 02:08:33 <gmaxwell> helo: Yes.
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 192 2013-06-13 02:09:14 <helo> but if instead the transaction fee was used to make it default-relayed, then that extra amount would go to increase network security
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 194 2013-06-13 02:09:57 <gmaxwell> there is your rut again.
 195 2013-06-13 02:10:26 <helo> that seems like good enough for allowing colored coin to work though... if i'm selling my house for 100 btc, and the network will only relay > 1btc, then the sender pays me 101btc and i send them the output with their colored satoshi + the 1 extra btc
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 198 2013-06-13 02:11:18 <gmaxwell> Keeping the UTXO from becoming bloated with perpetual data storage also contributes to network security, right now far far more than fees do.
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 201 2013-06-13 02:12:17 <gmaxwell> and sure, if you need to add X btc more it shouldn't matter to you if you have to put it in an output or in fees. (in fact, for you all the better the more of that is in an output, really)
 202 2013-06-13 02:12:49 <helo> yeah, i've kind of become attached to the idea that high-fee colored coin transfers could contribute significantly to network security
 203 2013-06-13 02:13:04 <gmaxwell> for the network, it's good that the value is with the output because it means the recieve will have an economic incentive to redeem the darn thing (and convert those coins to fees later)
 204 2013-06-13 02:13:36 <gmaxwell> I think that is far from clear. Generally colored coin technology is worthless in most of the applications people have assigned to it.
 205 2013-06-13 02:13:48 <gmaxwell> They're not thinking their applications through completely.
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 208 2013-06-13 02:14:45 <gmaxwell> For these applications you usually need some trusted entity to assign _meaning_ to the colored coin. So you can usually use them to also maintain a ledger.
 209 2013-06-13 02:15:05 <gmaxwell> But as you've finally been convinced, I hope, dust behavior isn't really incompatible with that in any case.
 210 2013-06-13 02:17:34 <gmaxwell> Even the smart property case— which dispenses with the trusted party... doesn't need colored coins.
 211 2013-06-13 02:18:10 <nospinzy> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=22434.0  has anyone used this No Forced TX Fee
 212 2013-06-13 02:18:16 <nospinzy> For the bitcoin-qt client
 213 2013-06-13 02:18:35 <helo> since they're still valid, mineable transactions, right?
 214 2013-06-13 02:18:57 <gmaxwell> helo: huh? no. because you can simply add value to the outputs to make the network happy.
 215 2013-06-13 02:19:12 <helo> ok, that...
 216 2013-06-13 02:20:04 <gmaxwell> helo: I mean, yes they're valid too— though really its a flaw in the design of bitcoin that its possible (according to the rules) to create an output which can't be economically redeemed... though one we're unlikely to fix.
 217 2013-06-13 02:20:34 <gmaxwell> (It _can_ be fixed, but the simplest actual fix for it is rather complicated.)
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 219 2013-06-13 02:20:44 <gmaxwell> (at least the simplest one known so far)
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 221 2013-06-13 02:21:19 <helo> smart property doesn't need colored coins?
 222 2013-06-13 02:21:34 <gmaxwell> Nope totally pointless as far as I can tell.
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 226 2013-06-13 02:21:52 <gmaxwell> For example, you have a smart car— tamperproof computer in it will only let its owner start it.
 227 2013-06-13 02:21:57 <gmaxwell> I want to buy it from you.
 228 2013-06-13 02:22:13 <helo> i liked the idea of atomic monetary-valued and colored-coin swaps that would bring irreversibility in transfer to non-bitcoin property
 229 2013-06-13 02:22:24 <gmaxwell> You don't need colored coins for that.
 230 2013-06-13 02:23:04 <gmaxwell> You tell the car "I want to sell you to gmaxwell. The sale is complete when someone shows you a txn paying 1 BTC to address 1helo.". The car produces a signed acknoweldgement and you give it to me.
 231 2013-06-13 02:23:24 <gmaxwell> then I pay you, and I show the car the transaction, and it switches who is allowed to start it.
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 233 2013-06-13 02:24:30 <gmaxwell> Varrious variations of the protocol also work, in effect you can "color" any coin you want just a the instant you need to do something conditional on it.. and the coloration only creates state in the minds of the participants, not the bitcoin network.
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 235 2013-06-13 02:25:11 <helo> payment protocol stuff
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 237 2013-06-13 02:27:06 <gmaxwell> I'd like to know if there is actually a smart property use case that actually benfits in a deep way from colored coins, I don't believe I've seen one yet.  I think it's likely that one exists, but everything people have suggested that I've seen can be addressed with the same security properties without them.
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 240 2013-06-13 02:28:32 <helo> ok, well this all sounds reasonable. thanks for taking the time to explain... i try to repeat your explanations when i hear others championing the bad ideas i've heard you debunk, if that's any consolation...
 241 2013-06-13 02:28:45 <gmaxwell> It is a major consolation.
 242 2013-06-13 02:29:02 <gmaxwell> And while I might sound grump, I like discussing this stuff— otherwise I wouldn't do it.
 243 2013-06-13 02:30:19 * nsh smiles
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 267 2013-06-13 02:57:42 <Neozonz> does bitcoind listen on both connections if you have two interfaces?
 268 2013-06-13 02:57:48 <Neozonz> how does it decide which to listen on?
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 289 2013-06-13 03:23:44 <helo> Neozonz: if you specify (one or more) -bind=IP, it will only listen on those interfaces
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 291 2013-06-13 03:24:40 <helo> Neozonz: otherwise, it will bind to INADDR_ANY
 292 2013-06-13 03:25:20 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, lol that is super dumb
 293 2013-06-13 03:25:25 <warren> hmmm, I haven't seen this before now "Status: 0/offline, has not been successfully broadcast yet"
 294 2013-06-13 03:25:35 <warren> I am connected to 8 nodes
 295 2013-06-13 03:25:42 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: indeed
 296 2013-06-13 03:26:03 <Luke-Jr> saivann: how has something been positively received if nobody's ever heard of it? :P
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 298 2013-06-13 03:27:04 <saivann> Luke-Jr : "positively received among developers and community members"?
 299 2013-06-13 03:27:34 <Luke-Jr> saivann: which developers or community members?
 300 2013-06-13 03:27:42 <Luke-Jr> I've never heard of it, though I've heard of at least 2 or 3 others
 301 2013-06-13 03:28:04 <saivann> Luke-Jr : At least Gavin and Mike Hearn
 302 2013-06-13 03:28:43 <saivann> And Jim
 303 2013-06-13 03:29:17 <saivann> And Andreas
 304 2013-06-13 03:29:21 <Luke-Jr> oh, this is slush's thing
 305 2013-06-13 03:29:25 <saivann> Yep
 306 2013-06-13 03:29:46 <Luke-Jr> "TREZOR uses an authentic offline transaction confirmation. Like that the entire process of setup and operation runs safely." lolenglish XD
 307 2013-06-13 03:29:56 <Luke-Jr> saivann: still, it doesn't seem fair to promote just one product when there are many
 308 2013-06-13 03:30:14 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Can you point me to other ones you know?
 309 2013-06-13 03:30:40 <Luke-Jr> saivann: there were 2 or 3 at the conference..
 310 2013-06-13 03:30:47 <Luke-Jr> Butterfly Labs's BitSafe was pretty popular
 311 2013-06-13 03:31:12 <Luke-Jr> the guys with the alcohol by the entrance I believe had something too, though I didn't figure out much in details
 312 2013-06-13 03:31:34 qbasicer has joined
 313 2013-06-13 03:31:36 <Luke-Jr> as well as one booth in the center aisle, who had some kind of hardware wallet(?) in a creditcard-sized package
 314 2013-06-13 03:31:50 * Luke-Jr should figure out where he put their sample
 315 2013-06-13 03:32:18 <Luke-Jr> found it: btchip.com
 316 2013-06-13 03:32:27 <saivann> The link is optional. Actually, we can link them all from the choose your wallet page once they are ready to ship..
 317 2013-06-13 03:32:33 <saivann> txs
 318 2013-06-13 03:34:10 <saivann> Luke-Jr : I removed the link, seems fair
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 325 2013-06-13 03:39:02 <Luke-Jr> hmm, btchip.com seems to be not a complete hw wallet
 326 2013-06-13 03:39:20 <saivann> Yea, that's what I was wondering
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 328 2013-06-13 03:40:43 <saivann> BFL Bitsafe has apparently no online presentation yet
 329 2013-06-13 03:41:51 <Luke-Jr> nba_btchip: hmm, I presume you're aware Bitcoin usually needs at least 2 outputs (and often more than 1 input) for transactions.. is that broken as implied by "Only a single point-to-point output"?
 330 2013-06-13 03:42:19 <Luke-Jr> nba_btchip: also, it would make sense to support sending to any arbitrary script equally - not just the (semi-deprecated!) pubkeyhash form ;)
 331 2013-06-13 03:43:26 <Luke-Jr> nba_btchip: it might also be wise to *not* expose IMPORT PRIVATE KEY to untrusted users (at all)
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 342 2013-06-13 04:06:37 <Jc_Dev> can i query for details of various transactions using debug console of bitcoin-qt if i have the transaction hash?
 343 2013-06-13 04:07:13 <gmaxwell> if it is not a transaction in your wallet you'll need to be running with txindex=1
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 347 2013-06-13 04:10:38 <Jc_Dev> gmaxwell: ah ok, thanks reindexing now (testnet of course), now i see additional commands in console window - awesome, thanks!
 348 2013-06-13 04:11:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: .. or if it's unspent :P
 349 2013-06-13 04:13:33 <gmaxwell> even if its unspent you can't get all the info
 350 2013-06-13 04:13:53 <gmaxwell> oh wait, yea you can.. durr
 351 2013-06-13 04:13:58 <gmaxwell> sorry. long week
 352 2013-06-13 04:14:18 <gmaxwell> (but thats only because sipa did something excessively clever there)
 353 2013-06-13 04:14:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Mozilla keeping you busier than wherever it was before? XD
 354 2013-06-13 04:15:06 <gmaxwell> (the txout set data includes the height, as its needed for maturity, and he looks up the block)
 355 2013-06-13 04:15:22 <Luke-Jr> right
 356 2013-06-13 04:19:01 <Jc_Dev> ok i have it running with txindex=1, and i'm using gettransaction and then the transaction hash, but it doesn't seem to like it - is <txid> something other than the tx hash?
 357 2013-06-13 04:19:17 <Luke-Jr> you need getrawtransaction
 358 2013-06-13 04:19:34 <gmaxwell> e.g. getrawtransaction <txid> 1
 359 2013-06-13 04:19:57 <Jc_Dev> aha, that worked, thanks
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 373 2013-06-13 04:43:43 <Jc_Dev> next bitcoin-qt console question - can i view the balance of a random address? i've tried getbalance and listunspent so far
 374 2013-06-13 04:46:10 <Luke-Jr> Jc_Dev: addresses do  not have balances
 375 2013-06-13 04:46:41 <Luke-Jr> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10090/how-to-get-an-addresss-balance-with-the-bitcoin-client/11595#11595
 376 2013-06-13 04:47:00 <Jc_Dev> yes, but that's the terminology of the command line for listunspent
 377 2013-06-13 04:47:13 <Jc_Dev> i realize it's really unspent outputs
 378 2013-06-13 04:47:37 <Luke-Jr> Jc_Dev: erm, no it isn't.
 379 2013-06-13 04:47:48 <Luke-Jr> listunspent makes no mention of balances
 380 2013-06-13 04:48:14 <Jc_Dev> i was referring the "address" terminology
 381 2013-06-13 04:48:30 <Luke-Jr> Jc_Dev: what about addresses?
 382 2013-06-13 04:48:35 <Luke-Jr> they don't have balances
 383 2013-06-13 04:49:15 <Jc_Dev> i realize that. i'm trying to see the unspent outputs associated with one.
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 385 2013-06-13 04:50:32 <Luke-Jr> Jc_Dev: ah
 386 2013-06-13 04:50:45 <Luke-Jr> that *should* be possible.. but not sure it's exposed
 387 2013-06-13 04:51:08 <Jc_Dev> oh ok - so listunspent isn't what i'm looking for?
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 391 2013-06-13 04:52:13 <Luke-Jr> Jc_Dev: it sounds like it is, but listunspent AIUI filters for wallet outputs right now :/
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 393 2013-06-13 04:53:08 <Jc_Dev> oh ok
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 397 2013-06-13 05:05:07 <sipa> Jc_Dev: that information is not maintained
 398 2013-06-13 05:05:34 <sipa> except for wallet addresses
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 400 2013-06-13 05:06:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: for unspent outputs⁈
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 403 2013-06-13 05:07:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not indexed per address
 404 2013-06-13 05:07:27 <sipa> so it would mean a linear scan over the entire utxobset
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 406 2013-06-13 05:07:55 <Jc_Dev> sipa: ok, fair enough, i'm actually doing that already, i'm just trying to double-check what i come up with against a third-party
 407 2013-06-13 05:08:54 <midnightmagic> Jc_Dev: for each unspent, bitcoind decoderawtransaction $( bitcoind getrawtransaction XXX ) and go through it until you find your vout, and from there you can add up the unspent bitcoins.
 408 2013-06-13 05:09:01 <sipa> you can use gettxoutb<txid> <vout> to fetchban arbitrary utxo
 409 2013-06-13 05:09:53 <midnightmagic> i think i have a perl script that does it somewhere.
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 411 2013-06-13 05:12:00 <Jc_Dev> interesting - i might hold off on that for now and just assume it's coming up with the right number for the moment. i tried verifying against blockexplorer.com/testnet/search but it seems to be missing a bunch of transactions in its index
 412 2013-06-13 05:13:06 <Jc_Dev> for example, this appears to be a valid transaction but there's no results for it on blockexplorer: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/search/94a6f4bac1fd7e0efc5815952a423a2001dcf31b79658b3a73977ea9ea25fcce
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 416 2013-06-13 05:19:48 <midnightmagic> Jc_Dev: Ah, here it is. A messy, messy little script I used to use to build rawtx. http://paste.ubuntu.com/5760361/ (tx.pl notx, or tx.pl fromaddr toaddr minimumpay) first style is to print a summary, second is to build a transaction json suitable for feeding to bitcoind createrawtransaction. :-P
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 418 2013-06-13 05:22:47 <Jc_Dev> midnightmagic: cool thanks - looks like i'll still have to get the equivalent of listunspent for a wallet that's not being tracked by bitcoind
 419 2013-06-13 05:23:52 <midnightmagic> you just need a tx and vout.
 420 2013-06-13 05:25:24 <Jc_Dev> right, but if i'm starting with an address i would first need to get a list of all associated tx with it right?
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 532 2013-06-13 07:23:02 <PrimeStunna> hey
 533 2013-06-13 07:23:19 <PrimeStunna> anyone know how to prevent bit coin daemond lag
 534 2013-06-13 07:23:25 <PrimeStunna> when you're using many addresses on a site
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 559 2013-06-13 07:41:29 <lado> Anyone here who believe that the price will fall to 50$ / per Bitcoin again?
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 564 2013-06-13 07:43:17 <Luke-Jr> lado: off-topic
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 566 2013-06-13 07:46:28 <wallet43> lado: #bitcoin-pricetalk
 567 2013-06-13 07:47:39 <lado> wallet43: thanks bro :)
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 577 2013-06-13 08:01:40 <nba_btchip> Luke-Jr ping. also from the previous point, having one single script type is useful for the "authorized address" mode where users only sign for addresses they authorized previously. forgot that point.
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 579 2013-06-13 08:02:14 <Luke-Jr> nba_btchip: so they can't authorize 3… addresses? ;)
 580 2013-06-13 08:03:06 <nba_btchip> not yet.
 581 2013-06-13 08:03:23 <Luke-Jr> seems to me, the smartcard should be neutral to address forms, and just let the users authorize and scriptPubKey :p
 582 2013-06-13 08:03:47 <nba_btchip> I mean you can but you wouldn't be able to use it as an authorized address today
 583 2013-06-13 08:03:48 <nba_btchip> yes
 584 2013-06-13 08:03:53 <nba_btchip> that's the new mode I was talking about
 585 2013-06-13 08:04:05 <nba_btchip> still check input/outputs but sign an arbitrary script. I'll add that.
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 588 2013-06-13 08:06:03 <Luke-Jr> nba_btchip: btw, are you the guy I met at the Conference booth? :p
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 598 2013-06-13 08:13:37 <nba_btchip> yep
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 609 2013-06-13 08:16:08 <nba_btchip> I guess I should have joined irc before and save one firmware revision :)
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 611 2013-06-13 08:19:52 <Luke-Jr> ☺
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 634 2013-06-13 08:48:51 <BlueMatt> runeks: outright crashes
 635 2013-06-13 08:49:05 <BlueMatt> at the time I saw specifically std::bad_alloc
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 729 2013-06-13 12:51:55 <BlueMatt> anyone able to spin up a testnet miner quickly?
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 732 2013-06-13 13:02:25 <tumak_> BlueMatt: i'm running one
 733 2013-06-13 13:03:11 <tumak_>     "difficulty" : 403.05977321,
 734 2013-06-13 13:03:12 <tumak_> :/
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 736 2013-06-13 13:05:37 <BlueMatt> na, I just got a block
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 741 2013-06-13 13:09:17 <sipa> a year ago, the hashrate was approximately 1/10 of what it is now
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 743 2013-06-13 13:10:37 * sipa wonders what it will be in a year
 744 2013-06-13 13:10:55 <coingenuity> to infinity...and beyond!
 745 2013-06-13 13:11:06 <sipa> please don't overflow
 746 2013-06-13 13:11:14 <sipa> negative infinity would be painful
 747 2013-06-13 13:11:39 <coingenuity> heh
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 769 2013-06-13 13:39:42 <btcls> good morning
 770 2013-06-13 13:40:37 <btcls> i am not understanding (after some googling/binging) - why I can not use a main bitcoin receive address forever ?
 771 2013-06-13 13:41:22 <sipa> privacy
 772 2013-06-13 13:41:38 <sipa> (not just yours)
 773 2013-06-13 13:41:58 <btcls> oh
 774 2013-06-13 13:42:29 <Luke-Jr> btcls: also, there is no other way to identify who sent to you
 775 2013-06-13 13:42:46 <Luke-Jr> or why
 776 2013-06-13 13:43:37 <btcls> good morning both sipa and Luke-Jr nice to see you both again
 777 2013-06-13 13:44:45 <Luke-Jr> the first time you spend a coin sent to an address, you also expose your public key, which makes any other coins sent to the same address vulnerable when ECDSA is some day broken
 778 2013-06-13 13:45:01 <btcls> anyway ...I figure that using a static recieve address for a customer (each different) would quite easily setup a merchant program where the person who needs their referrel money could verify it in the blockchain
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 782 2013-06-13 13:45:16 <Luke-Jr> it also sets a bad habit for when you need to one day upgrade to quantum-safe algorithms, which leak private key information when signing more than once
 783 2013-06-13 13:45:52 <Luke-Jr> btcls: the new deterministic key stuff should make that easy without breaking the "one address per transaction" rule
 784 2013-06-13 13:47:10 <btcls> kk ...I will have to write a search and replace public key to update affiliate layers
 785 2013-06-13 13:47:43 <Luke-Jr> O.o
 786 2013-06-13 13:47:49 <sipa> affiliate layers?
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 789 2013-06-13 13:48:09 <btcls> Website A sends person to me ... they buy ...i owe them a percentage
 790 2013-06-13 13:49:18 <btcls> was thinking a static receive address per customer would allow the blockchain to verify if a person from Website A (unique address) purchased something
 791 2013-06-13 13:50:07 <btcls> everytime i enter any room  "iwilcox" always enters
 792 2013-06-13 13:50:21 <btcls> fyi
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 794 2013-06-13 13:50:54 <helo> if ECDSA is was broken today, what percentage of bitcoin will be immediately at risk?
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 797 2013-06-13 13:52:29 <btcls> so lets say i have a starting address S1 for website W1, W1 verifies in the block chain S1 received money, so I programatically change S1 to S2 and tell website W1 the new address
 798 2013-06-13 13:52:48 <btcls> is there a security issue with that situation ?
 799 2013-06-13 13:53:26 <btcls> it would be well known S1 and S2 belonged to my company
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 821 2013-06-13 14:28:54 <helo> that's not usually how things are done... usually you give every order a new address, associating them in a database with the order. so when your shipping system sees that an address received the appropriate funding, the order ships.
 822 2013-06-13 14:29:48 <helo> so in order for someone to know all of the addresses that belong to your company, they'd have to ask all of your customers what addresses they paid to.
 823 2013-06-13 14:30:50 <helo> single-use addresses are the best for privacy (and security if we assume bitcoin could survive ECDSA breaking)
 824 2013-06-13 14:31:08 <helo> btcls: late reply^
 825 2013-06-13 14:31:17 <btcls> helo: kk i will read up on ecdsa breaking ..
 826 2013-06-13 14:31:23 <btcls> thanx
 827 2013-06-13 14:32:20 <sipa> it's easy: before you do a transaction spending coins assigned to address X, the public key for X is not revealed
 828 2013-06-13 14:32:36 <sipa> so you cannot even begin doing an ECDSA crack
 829 2013-06-13 14:32:44 <tumak_> helo: not much of % of bitcoins actually, basically only people actually using bitcoin reuse addresses (thus expose pubkeys) :)
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 833 2013-06-13 14:38:26 <btcls> sipa: where the purpose is create an affiliate program, Alice sends Bob to address 1, Bob buys, Alice knows this because it is visible in the blockchain, Alice wants her percentage, I just tell Alice I will pay you but when i do you get another referral address - simple i think - i could send the new address for her to use in the message area of bitcoin-qt correct ??
 834 2013-06-13 14:38:52 <helo> btcls: ignore the ECDSA breaking stuff, that was just a technical side-note
 835 2013-06-13 14:38:55 <sipa> there is no 'message area'
 836 2013-06-13 14:39:01 <sipa> bitcoin transactions do not contain messages
 837 2013-06-13 14:39:39 <helo> if ECDSA breaks, then all hell will break loose
 838 2013-06-13 14:39:40 <sipa> you can sign messages using private keys if you own the address
 839 2013-06-13 14:39:54 <sipa> thus proving you own that address
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 841 2013-06-13 14:40:08 <helo> wallet encryption leaves public keys in plain text, doesn't it?
 842 2013-06-13 14:40:18 <sipa> yes
 843 2013-06-13 14:42:21 <warren> TheUni: what is your e-mail address?
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 845 2013-06-13 14:44:22 <helo> so aside from invalidating everyone's security assumptions based on wallet encryption (backups on dropbox, etc), there would have to be a new transaction type where you prove you have the public key (without revealing it) to then send the coin to an address generated from a different signing algo key
 846 2013-06-13 14:44:56 <helo> i assume you guys have a better plan though ;)
 847 2013-06-13 14:45:13 <nsh> plan A: shoot all the bad people in the kneecaps
 848 2013-06-13 14:45:24 <tumak_> pla B: collect underpants
 849 2013-06-13 14:45:30 * nsh nods
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 853 2013-06-13 14:50:54 <Luke-Jr> helo: require ECDSA redemptions to broadcast a hash of the signature in advance of the actual pubkey/signature
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 855 2013-06-13 14:58:42 <nsh> what's the context of this discussion? i'm having trouble following?
 856 2013-06-13 14:59:05 <nsh> s/?$/./
 857 2013-06-13 15:00:03 <nsh> is this a proposal for affiliate schemes?
 858 2013-06-13 15:00:15 <helo> it would be nice if there was another sig algo that was roughly as fitting as ECDSA to offer as an alternative
 859 2013-06-13 15:00:51 <helo> nsh: nah, i was just asking about what the options would be if ECDSA was broken
 860 2013-06-13 15:00:59 <nsh> oh ok
 861 2013-06-13 15:01:26 <nsh> there's a few drop-in replacement options but all currently have some demerit (space efficiency primarily) as i understand it
 862 2013-06-13 15:02:01 <helo> yeah
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 864 2013-06-13 15:04:40 <nsh> only actual attacks on ECDSA that i'm aware of have been massive implementation idiocy (Sony PS3) and timing-based attack on OpenSSL (which was fixed in 2011)
 865 2013-06-13 15:04:58 <nsh> don't follow the literature though so there may be a range of theoretical weaknesses past the horizon
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 882 2013-06-13 15:41:09 <Steve132> In a bitcoin transaction, can someone explain a little more in-depth what the difference is between scriptSig and scriptPubKey
 883 2013-06-13 15:41:31 <grau> !ticker
 884 2013-06-13 15:41:32 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 108.55000, Best ask: 109.09999, Bid-ask spread: 0.54999, Last trade: 108.55000, 24 hour volume: 12637.90423080, 24 hour low: 107.08900, 24 hour high: 110.89998, 24 hour vwap: 108.82674
 885 2013-06-13 15:41:34 agnostic98 has joined
 886 2013-06-13 15:42:19 <nsh> Steve132, did you read: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/8250/what-is-relation-between-scriptsig-and-scriptpubkey ?
 887 2013-06-13 15:42:49 <sipa> Steve132: scriptPubKey is part of an output, and sets conditions about who can spend it
 888 2013-06-13 15:43:11 <sipa> Steve132: scriptSig is part of an input, and is used to satisfy the conditions specified on the scriptPubKey of the output being spent
 889 2013-06-13 15:44:15 <Steve132> thanks
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 891 2013-06-13 15:44:57 <Steve132> So, basically, when I send someone BTC, I'm sending them a scriptPubKey script that they have to figure out how to make...what, return true on the stack?
 892 2013-06-13 15:45:16 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 893 2013-06-13 15:45:45 <Steve132> And scriptSig is the stack that they are supplying as input to my program
 894 2013-06-13 15:45:51 <Steve132> to spend
 895 2013-06-13 15:46:10 <sipa> bingo
 896 2013-06-13 15:46:35 <sipa> typically, a scriptPubKey is of the form "take two inputs, a signature and a pubkey, and check that hash(pubkey)==C, and that checksig(signature,pubkey,msg=<this transaction>) is valid"
 897 2013-06-13 15:46:55 <sipa> and the scriptSig corresponding to it, is "push S, push P"
 898 2013-06-13 15:46:59 <Steve132> thats "typical" though
 899 2013-06-13 15:47:12 <Steve132> you can embed arbitrary "script" asm programs
 900 2013-06-13 15:47:26 <sipa> yes, though only a few are whitelisted as standard
 901 2013-06-13 15:47:32 <sipa> and non-standard ones don't get relayed
 902 2013-06-13 15:47:39 <sipa> but if they end up in a block, they're valid
 903 2013-06-13 15:47:44 <Steve132> well, wait a minute now
 904 2013-06-13 15:47:56 <Steve132> so the programs have to be explicitly whitelisted?  or the opcodes?
 905 2013-06-13 15:48:35 <sipa> the programs
 906 2013-06-13 15:48:37 <Steve132> My impression from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
 907 2013-06-13 15:48:43 <sipa> the scriptPubKey, specifically
 908 2013-06-13 15:48:52 <Steve132> was that you could make arbitrary interesting programs
 909 2013-06-13 15:48:59 <sipa> you can
 910 2013-06-13 15:49:04 <Steve132> so..what?
 911 2013-06-13 15:49:16 <sipa> you'll just need to get them confirmed manually by a miner
 912 2013-06-13 15:49:39 <Steve132> Is there a reason for that?
 913 2013-06-13 15:49:41 <Luke-Jr> Steve132: Eligius will mine any transaction if you pay a sufficient fee
 914 2013-06-13 15:49:45 <sipa> (and of course, if they're interested, they can easily be made standard)
 915 2013-06-13 15:50:14 <Steve132> It seems like there's no point in having the ability to make cool non-standard transactions if they are rejected by 99% of the miners
 916 2013-06-13 15:50:27 <sipa> nobody can reject them
 917 2013-06-13 15:50:33 <sipa> but everyone can ignore them
 918 2013-06-13 15:50:49 <Steve132> Right, obviously
 919 2013-06-13 15:51:08 <Steve132> but I guess I mean, if you can't get your "interesting" transactions included in a block
 920 2013-06-13 15:51:12 <sipa> Steve132: it's not entirely understood how every type of script is a danger for security/dos, especially those with opcodes that have never ever been used in a script on mainnet
 921 2013-06-13 15:51:14 <Steve132> then why have them?
 922 2013-06-13 15:51:21 <sipa> they're trivial to enable
 923 2013-06-13 15:51:43 <sipa> while if the script language itself didn't support it, it would require a hard fork (~ years of work) to enable
 924 2013-06-13 15:51:48 <Steve132> I understand not enabling potentially 'dangerous' opcodes
 925 2013-06-13 15:51:58 <Steve132> but I'm saying, lets say I stick ONLY to the safe opcodes
 926 2013-06-13 15:52:06 <Steve132> like under that Contracts example on the wiki
 927 2013-06-13 15:52:14 <Steve132> You are saying that I can't actually use any of thsoe
 928 2013-06-13 15:52:16 <Steve132> *those
 929 2013-06-13 15:52:23 <sipa> you can experiment with them on testnet
 930 2013-06-13 15:52:31 <Steve132> right, but I can't actually use them
 931 2013-06-13 15:52:40 <sipa> on testnet you can :)
 932 2013-06-13 15:53:15 <Steve132> But lets say I *actually* want to do one of those cool society-changing things
 933 2013-06-13 15:53:40 <sipa> then you'll first need to implement them, test them, devise protocols to negotiate them between parties, ...
 934 2013-06-13 15:53:41 <Steve132> that bitcoin is supposedly good for...like setting up a will or an escrow
 935 2013-06-13 15:53:43 <Steve132> or whatever
 936 2013-06-13 15:53:51 <Steve132> or assurance controls
 937 2013-06-13 15:53:56 <Steve132> I can't ACTUALLY do any of them
 938 2013-06-13 15:54:05 <sipa> it's an experiment
 939 2013-06-13 15:54:41 <sipa> it supports many cool features at its core, but it's also a production system now that holds significant economic importance
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 941 2013-06-13 15:55:16 <sipa> and i'm sure that once people start playing with those contract types, they'll very quickly be standard
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 944 2013-06-13 15:56:45 <Steve132> I guess what I'm kind of lamenting is that platforms are cool
 945 2013-06-13 15:57:04 <Steve132> and the ability for a lawyer in 2050 to have his bitcoin guy write code for an economic transaction
 946 2013-06-13 15:57:10 <Steve132> that is special for the needs of his customer
 947 2013-06-13 15:57:15 <Steve132> and boom it just works
 948 2013-06-13 15:57:36 <Steve132> without having to get it standardized
 949 2013-06-13 15:57:39 <Steve132> would be very very cool
 950 2013-06-13 15:57:53 <sipa> once we learn more through experience from complex transactions, maybe entire classes of opcodes or programs can be made standard
 951 2013-06-13 15:58:05 <sipa> it's really just being cautious with things that have never actually been used
 952 2013-06-13 15:59:03 <Steve132> I understand, but I sorta thought some kind of hard size limit as well as the no turing-completeness thing would be enough of a dos prevention
 953 2013-06-13 15:59:23 <sipa> maybe there's just outright bugs in the implementation of some opcodes
 954 2013-06-13 15:59:25 <nsh> dos is not the main problem
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 956 2013-06-13 15:59:38 <Steve132> imagine if windows 95 only ran code for "standard" programs of a form that they pre-approved...that would have completely killed the PC market
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 958 2013-06-13 15:59:39 <sipa> (in fact, we know there are, and they can't just be fixed)
 959 2013-06-13 15:59:46 <nsh> it's how easy it is to whoops some arithemtic in an opcode
 960 2013-06-13 15:59:53 <nsh> and suddenly massive theft
 961 2013-06-13 16:00:20 <Steve132> I'd agree with banning certain buggy opcodes
 962 2013-06-13 16:00:26 <nsh> sipa, "can't" be fixed?
 963 2013-06-13 16:00:40 <Steve132> but why ban all TRANSACTIOSN
 964 2013-06-13 16:00:52 <sipa> Steve132: they're not banned
 965 2013-06-13 16:00:59 <sipa> they're just discouraged
 966 2013-06-13 16:01:02 <Steve132> Well, not banned, but right
 967 2013-06-13 16:01:30 <Steve132> it would be like saying "Because multiplication is buggy on our intel processors, only write programs related to word-processing"
 968 2013-06-13 16:02:08 <Steve132> Also, I mean, respectfully, given the 32-bit limit on the arithmetic opcodes, what opcodes are dangerous or buggy?
 969 2013-06-13 16:02:17 <Steve132> It seems like those would be by far the easiest
 970 2013-06-13 16:02:51 <Steve132> to get right
 971 2013-06-13 16:02:51 <Luke-Jr> Steve132: the problem is nobody knows
 972 2013-06-13 16:02:56 <Luke-Jr> there's no tests
 973 2013-06-13 16:03:24 <Luke-Jr> if you'd like to put the effort into testing everything properly, that's how we can enable everything everywhere
 974 2013-06-13 16:03:38 <sipa> if we knew, they'd be enabled; it's more things like a) make sure every implementation behaves _exactly_ the same way  b) they are no ways to make you do tons of useless signature checks  c) they are no ways to spam the blockchain without sufficient mechanisms to discourage it, ...
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 977 2013-06-13 16:07:48 <sipa> but really, show that things are useful and they'll be enabled
 978 2013-06-13 16:08:36 <Steve132> My point is that that attitude is kind of the innovation killer
 979 2013-06-13 16:08:39 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 980 2013-06-13 16:08:56 <Steve132> "Demonstrate that you NEED to be allowed to do this thing, then we'll allow you to do it, citizen"
 981 2013-06-13 16:09:30 <Steve132> The cathedral and the bazaar, really
 982 2013-06-13 16:10:16 <Steve132> I mean, it doesn't matter...if the bitcoin devs think that the risk outweighs the potential gains, thats fine
 983 2013-06-13 16:10:27 <Steve132> I'm not going to be able to change anyone's minds
 984 2013-06-13 16:10:38 <Luke-Jr> Steve132: this is more of everyone at the bazaar declining to trade with your funny new coins because they've never heard of it before
 985 2013-06-13 16:10:42 <Steve132> but it seems sorta like it will drastically limit bitcoin's potential
 986 2013-06-13 16:11:36 <sipa> i wish bitcoin was just a playground, really
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 989 2013-06-13 16:12:03 <sipa> i think the economic significance it has seriously hurts innovation
 990 2013-06-13 16:12:32 <sipa> and nonstandard scripts is just a very minor part of that
 991 2013-06-13 16:14:09 <vrs> Steve132: there's money involved in bitcoin, if there weren't, it wouldn't be a bit as far as it is now
 992 2013-06-13 16:14:36 TD is now known as TD[gone]
 993 2013-06-13 16:14:37 <Steve132> I don't see why money being involved in it automatically makes addition untrustworthy
 994 2013-06-13 16:14:47 <vrs> so as a project, I think it can afford to have a bit higher barrier of entry than most
 995 2013-06-13 16:14:50 patcon has joined
 996 2013-06-13 16:14:50 <Steve132> I mean, a lot of faith is put in the rest of the codebase
 997 2013-06-13 16:15:13 <vrs> no I mean, look at this whole ecosystem of sites and third party services
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1000 2013-06-13 16:15:44 <vrs> Tor, in comparison, are struggling to keep their browser bundle up to date because they lack maintainers
1001 2013-06-13 16:15:45 kreal has joined
1002 2013-06-13 16:16:08 <vrs> or they did one, two years ago
1003 2013-06-13 16:16:50 <Steve132> The argument seems to be that non-standard transactions are therefore insecure because they might involve money
1004 2013-06-13 16:17:03 <vrs> hm no
1005 2013-06-13 16:17:22 <vrs> well not my argument at least
1006 2013-06-13 16:17:36 <Steve132> Ok?
1007 2013-06-13 16:17:44 bloke has left ()
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1010 2013-06-13 16:18:37 <Steve132> >but it seems sorta like it will drastically limit bitcoin's potential, sipa: the economic significance it has seriously hurts innovation.  Vrs: there's money involved in bitcoin, if there weren't, it wouldn't be a bit as far as it is now,
1011 2013-06-13 16:18:46 whiterabbit has joined
1012 2013-06-13 16:18:53 <Steve132> vrs: what is your argument, then?
1013 2013-06-13 16:19:32 nomailing has joined
1014 2013-06-13 16:19:34 <vrs> for an open source projects involving tricky algorithms, bitcoin does very very well
1015 2013-06-13 16:20:11 <vrs> look at Tor or I2P or all the other things from the anonbib that haven't even been implement to see where such projects usually end up
1016 2013-06-13 16:20:19 <vrs> or what they struggle with
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1019 2013-06-13 16:20:40 <vrs> project* implemented*
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1021 2013-06-13 16:21:29 <vrs> and I think the success of bitcoin as an open source project is due to the fact that money is behind it, potentially a lot
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1023 2013-06-13 16:21:57 <vrs> so you can't exactly apply the same popularity/entry barrier reasoning to it as to other OS projects
1024 2013-06-13 16:22:37 <vrs> bitcoin doesn't need to be as inviting, as a project
1025 2013-06-13 16:23:18 <vrs> some day somebody will come and build all these tests
1026 2013-06-13 16:23:28 <vrs> and I think it won't be too long
1027 2013-06-13 16:24:35 <Steve132> Would formal verification of a script-interpreter be sufficient?
1028 2013-06-13 16:25:20 <vrs> if you can formalize what you want in the first place
1029 2013-06-13 16:25:23 <vrs> I guess yes
1030 2013-06-13 16:25:28 <vrs> I'm not one of the devs
1031 2013-06-13 16:25:49 <Steve132> Like, sipa: are you saying the actual problem is that nobody has tested the script-interpreter?
1032 2013-06-13 16:27:20 <Steve132> Also, can "script" be called something else, like "bitcoin bytecode" or "bit-code" or something?
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1035 2013-06-13 16:28:25 <sipa> Steve132: that is one of thr concerns, but not the only one
1036 2013-06-13 16:29:25 <Steve132> its just confusing to call it "script" when its not really human read-able (in hex) and it describes something specific for a specific interpreter
1037 2013-06-13 16:29:33 <Steve132> What are the other concerns?
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1040 2013-06-13 16:31:09 <vrs> Steve132, how would you formalize "DoS-resistant"?
1041 2013-06-13 16:31:31 <vrs> or "economically discourages a DoS"?
1042 2013-06-13 16:32:22 <Steve132> Well, since there are no loops, the CPU time of the interpreter in the worst case is the sum of the runtimes of each instruction
1043 2013-06-13 16:32:24 <sipa> there arw justba myriad of problems we've seen in the past... quadratic execution time, malleability of signatures, potential ways to cause infinite loops (op_eval related), ways to insert data in the chain that doesn't get redeemed, unspecified behaviour, ability to steal outputs due to an op_return bug, transactions that relayed and were accepted but never confirmed, ...
1044 2013-06-13 16:32:44 <sipa> and reasonig about all that is complicated by every extra possibility
1045 2013-06-13 16:32:49 <Steve132> so a miner could compute the CPU time required with a simple pre-scan
1046 2013-06-13 16:33:27 <Steve132> Just remove everything self-referential (no op_eval) and loops
1047 2013-06-13 16:33:38 <sipa> these do not exist
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1051 2013-06-13 16:33:55 <Steve132> sipa: what does not exist?
1052 2013-06-13 16:34:22 <sipa> the problem is that every piece of non-understood code makes changes harder, and this is an absolutely essential part in the consensus mechanism
1053 2013-06-13 16:34:35 <sipa> especially code that is not used in practice
1054 2013-06-13 16:34:49 <sipa> so please, if you want to see things enabled, use them
1055 2013-06-13 16:35:51 <Steve132> If you are getting bored, debating me, I understand, I'm not trying to be rude...but forgive me, isn't it possible to limit the allowable opcodes to not allow any kind of recursion or looping or computability
1056 2013-06-13 16:36:09 <Steve132> then you can know with certainty exactly how long they will take in the worst case?
1057 2013-06-13 16:36:17 <sipa> Steve132: the language is explicitly designed to not allow recursion or looping, right from the start
1058 2013-06-13 16:36:36 <sipa> however, at some point, a change was made that would almost have enabled a way to cause infinite loops
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1060 2013-06-13 16:36:40 <Steve132> Like, the halting problem proof only applies to turing machine languages...its completely possible to predict the halting state of other languages
1061 2013-06-13 16:36:43 <sipa> and it was detected at the last moment only
1062 2013-06-13 16:37:44 <sipa> it's just such an intricate part, and understanding everything involved is much more than some theoretic properties of the language
1063 2013-06-13 16:37:58 <Steve132> You said it was op_eval related...but thats obvious...reflection is a type of recursion so reflection shouldn't be allowed.
1064 2013-06-13 16:38:27 <Steve132> Besides, lets say hypothetically a miner DOES begin to mine an infinite loop...couldn't the miner just decide "this isn't worth it.  Done with this" and kill it?
1065 2013-06-13 16:38:45 <sipa> YES THEY CAN
1066 2013-06-13 16:38:49 <nsh> you can always have timeouts, but that's an indeterminism
1067 2013-06-13 16:38:58 <sipa> but it's not about a specific vulnerability
1068 2013-06-13 16:39:11 <sipa> i'm pretty sure that there is no way to do cause infinite loops now
1069 2013-06-13 16:39:31 <sipa> it's that the more complex the scripts are, the more complex it is to reason about what effects it can have
1070 2013-06-13 16:39:32 <nsh> bitcoin *is* an infinite loop
1071 2013-06-13 16:39:45 <sipa> and that can be security effects, efficiency effects, economic effects
1072 2013-06-13 16:39:46 <Steve132> >it's that the more complex the scripts are, the more complex it is to reason about what effects it can have
1073 2013-06-13 16:39:51 <Steve132> I get that
1074 2013-06-13 16:40:08 <sipa> so please, again: if you want complex scripts, use them
1075 2013-06-13 16:40:19 <sipa> and that's the last i'm going to say about it
1076 2013-06-13 16:40:24 <Steve132> but what effects could it have?  I mean, like what's the danger?  I can only spend outputs I have access too anyway
1077 2013-06-13 16:40:28 <Steve132> so what's the problem?
1078 2013-06-13 16:40:38 <epscy> causing forks?
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1082 2013-06-13 16:41:01 <Steve132> Whats the big deal if I put some weird complex code on it that ends up having a bug?  Shouldn't that be my right?
1083 2013-06-13 16:41:11 <epscy> i would also be worried about blockchain bloat
1084 2013-06-13 16:41:14 <sipa> causing forks, bloating the chain, having people accept transactions that don't confirm, software that crashes, ability to knock out mining nodes, slow down blocks, ...
1085 2013-06-13 16:41:22 <Steve132> epscy: how could a script cause a fork?
1086 2013-06-13 16:41:34 <sipa> Steve132: by inconsistent implementation
1087 2013-06-13 16:41:39 <Steve132> Ok, I get it
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1089 2013-06-13 16:41:57 <Steve132> thanks for the discussion.  Sorry if I came off as hostile, just curious
1090 2013-06-13 16:42:03 <epscy> i really don't like the idea of random stuff in the blockchain
1091 2013-06-13 16:42:20 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1092 2013-06-13 16:42:29 <Steve132> epscy: can't people do that already?
1093 2013-06-13 16:42:32 <epscy> it's growing at a ridiculous rate as it is
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1095 2013-06-13 16:42:41 <epscy> Steve132: yeah i believe so
1096 2013-06-13 16:42:59 <epscy> Steve132: though something like 55% of all txes in the blockchain are satoshidice
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1099 2013-06-13 16:45:25 <helo> killer ap 0_o
1100 2013-06-13 16:45:35 <helo> *app
1101 2013-06-13 16:45:38 <nsh> evolution isn't free...
1102 2013-06-13 16:46:02 <helo> everybody dies as a result :/
1103 2013-06-13 16:50:42 <Steve132> sipa: debate aside, what do you think of my idea to change the name of "script" to something else?
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1107 2013-06-13 16:51:24 <Luke-Jr> NACK, there are already people trying to special-case all standard scripts in their alt implementations -.-
1108 2013-06-13 16:52:03 <Steve132> Luke-Jr: thats kind of why I think its a bad idea...an actual interpreter would be a really good idea.
1109 2013-06-13 16:52:14 <Steve132> instead of a tree of special cases
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1116 2013-06-13 16:58:53 <kuzetsa> [Local NY time, about 3 hours ago 09:26:54] <helo> if ECDSA is was broken today, what percentage of bitcoin will be immediately at risk?
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1118 2013-06-13 16:59:09 <kuzetsa> ^how to change scripts to use new sigtypes... was that really how this discussion started?
1119 2013-06-13 16:59:40 <kuzetsa> was a fascinating discussion (just caught up)
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1129 2013-06-13 17:12:16 <helo> hopefully so unlikely that it's irrelevant, but it would be kind of nice to have a widely discussed game plan in place
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1131 2013-06-13 17:13:39 <Steve132> helo: all of them?
1132 2013-06-13 17:13:47 <Steve132> unless I'm wrong
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1138 2013-06-13 17:20:21 <helo> Steve132: without the corresponding public key (which is unknown until btc at an address has been sent at least once), exploiters couldn't move such outputs. but a transaction publishes the public key out of necessity, so any node receiving one post-ecdsa could rewrite it however they wanted. so to transfer from an ecdsa-signed output to some other signature algo output, someone would have to prove they own the private key somehow without sharing the publ
1139 2013-06-13 17:20:27 <helo> blah
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1142 2013-06-13 17:21:37 <DBordello> What is considered valid proof of work?  sha256(sha256(block_header)) < target?
1143 2013-06-13 17:22:59 <TheUni> warren: ping. still need me?
1144 2013-06-13 17:23:29 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1145 2013-06-13 17:26:09 <helo> DBordello: yep
1146 2013-06-13 17:27:03 <DBordello> I am hearing about limit discussion about a ASIC killswitch for certain vendors.  Could you elaborate on how that is possible?
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1152 2013-06-13 17:41:28 <helo> a vendor could have a killswitch in their ASICs, that they could use to disable their customers ASICs?
1153 2013-06-13 17:41:37 <helo> is that the kind of thing you're referring to?
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1182 2013-06-13 18:20:58 <pjorrit> that's an interesting idea
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1218 2013-06-13 19:25:08 * jgarzik yawns
1219 2013-06-13 19:25:58 <michagogo> jgarzik: FYI, looks like I've become a seed
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1229 2013-06-13 19:30:07 <michagogo> Oh, NO
1230 2013-06-13 19:30:09 <michagogo> NONONONONO
1231 2013-06-13 19:31:24 PK has joined
1232 2013-06-13 19:31:26 * nsh powerblinks at michagogo 
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1234 2013-06-13 19:32:12 <michagogo> Oh, no
1235 2013-06-13 19:32:17 <michagogo> This is bad
1236 2013-06-13 19:32:27 <michagogo> I think I accidentally the file :-(
1237 2013-06-13 19:32:38 <nsh> bootstrap.dat?
1238 2013-06-13 19:33:17 <michagogo> Yes.
1239 2013-06-13 19:33:31 <nsh> worse things happen at sea. it's not like there are no copies :)
1240 2013-06-13 19:33:54 <michagogo> I was wondering if it would let me seed the 4.5gb torrent off the 7.8gb file
1241 2013-06-13 19:34:16 <nsh> heh
1242 2013-06-13 19:34:19 <michagogo> And it looks like it did, except that it sliced off the new part
1243 2013-06-13 19:34:21 owowo has joined
1244 2013-06-13 19:34:30 <michagogo> ;_;
1245 2013-06-13 19:34:44 <pjorrit> yea torrents are controlling bitches
1246 2013-06-13 19:34:46 <nsh> that is bad behaviour from your torrent software...
1247 2013-06-13 19:34:46 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1248 2013-06-13 19:35:35 <michagogo> µTorrent, btw
1249 2013-06-13 19:36:44 santoscork has joined
1250 2013-06-13 19:36:50 <nsh> maybe file a ticket. i'm having trouble imagining how truncating a file without warnings can be good policy
1251 2013-06-13 19:38:35 * nsh is still only at 0.16 ratio due to dire upstream bandwidth :/
1252 2013-06-13 19:38:39 <michagogo> File a ticket? How/where?
1253 2013-06-13 19:38:41 <matjeh> chattr +i bootstrap.dat
1254 2013-06-13 19:38:56 <nsh> ;;google uTorrent bugs report
1255 2013-06-13 19:38:57 <gribble> How to report a bug (Page 1) / Bug Reports / µTorrent Community Forums: <https://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?id=29748>; Bug Reports (Page 1) / µTorrent Community Forums: <http://forum.utorrent.com/viewforum.php?id=5>; µTorrent Community Forums: <http://forum.utorrent.com/>
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1257 2013-06-13 19:39:50 <Ry4an> matjeh: or 'a'
1258 2013-06-13 19:40:07 <Ry4an> it's an append-only format isn't it?
1259 2013-06-13 19:40:22 <nsh> (michagogo, matjeh's command may recover your file depending on filesystem)
1260 2013-06-13 19:40:29 <michagogo> nsh: NTFS
1261 2013-06-13 19:40:35 <nsh> nm
1262 2013-06-13 19:41:16 <nsh> probably easier to redownload
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1270 2013-06-13 19:48:25 <michagogo> Anyone have the magnet link for the 4.52gb bootstrap.dat?
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1276 2013-06-13 19:56:04 <nsh> i found:  magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6fe493ba606847eac163baf35aae9db319735482&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.ccc.de:80&tr=udp://tracker.istole.it:80
1277 2013-06-13 19:56:16 <nsh> but that's 4.86GB
1278 2013-06-13 19:56:28 <vrs> nsh: no, slicing the file sounds like normal behaviour
1279 2013-06-13 19:56:49 <vrs> just dd the relevant part of the file to where the torrent should seed from, or make it read only
1280 2013-06-13 19:57:02 debiantoruser has joined
1281 2013-06-13 19:57:15 <nsh> unprompted clobber is an easy way for users to shoot themselves in the foot
1282 2013-06-13 19:57:22 * nsh shrugs
1283 2013-06-13 19:57:37 <vrs> well, torrent clients
1284 2013-06-13 19:57:45 <vrs> they aren't exactly written as unix tools
1285 2013-06-13 19:57:59 wallet43 has joined
1286 2013-06-13 19:58:12 * nsh nods
1287 2013-06-13 19:59:18 BeeDeePee____ has joined
1288 2013-06-13 19:59:18 <Ry4an> does AWS S3 still make every files available as a torrent by default?   I've used that for automatically updating bulk downloads in the past.
1289 2013-06-13 19:59:36 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1290 2013-06-13 20:00:17 <nsh> oh, that sounds neat
1291 2013-06-13 20:00:25 <Ry4an> http://noisemore.wordpress.com/2006/03/14/amazon-s3-has-bittorrent-support/
1292 2013-06-13 20:00:37 BeeDeePee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1294 2013-06-13 20:00:50 <Ry4an> you just throw ?torrent  after any GET and you get a generated .torrent instead
1295 2013-06-13 20:01:18 <nsh> 5 ˆ . Torrent URL : ‘Torrent URL' generates a URL that is in the form of Bit Torrent file. Using this URL, object can be downloaded with a Bit Torrent client application. Since this application fetches data from various sources, it saves both time and bandwidth usage. It also eliminates the dependency from the particular host. To generate the torrent URL you need to click on “Torrent Url” button and you will get the url(s) with " ?torrent " suf
1296 2013-06-13 20:01:18 <nsh> fix.
1297 2013-06-13 20:01:28 <nsh> vintage march 2013: http://www.bucketexplorer.com/documentation/amazon-s3--how-to-generate-url-for-amazon-s3-file.html
1298 2013-06-13 20:01:43 <Ry4an> mine was from 06
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1338 2013-06-13 20:27:37 <BlueMatt> yea the "if (fDebug) assert("mempool transaction missing input" == 0);" assert fails waaay too much if you mine yourself on testnet/regtestnet
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1340 2013-06-13 20:28:22 <sipa> the easy solution would be to remove that transaction from the mempool in that case
1341 2013-06-13 20:28:31 <sipa> but i'd prefer finding out how it got there...
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1344 2013-06-13 20:30:04 <BlueMatt> if its a wallet tx it bypasses the get-in-mempool check for no real reason
1345 2013-06-13 20:30:09 <BlueMatt> that just needs removed
1346 2013-06-13 20:31:03 mE\Ta has quit (Quit: transwarp)
1347 2013-06-13 20:31:39 <BlueMatt> s/check/checks/
1348 2013-06-13 20:34:16 <sipa> right, indeed
1349 2013-06-13 20:35:12 <BlueMatt> I think ive done that in all of like 3 separate branches
1350 2013-06-13 20:35:15 <BlueMatt> over like 2 years
1351 2013-06-13 20:35:18 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1352 2013-06-13 20:35:27 <BlueMatt> but all large branches that never got finished/merged
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1354 2013-06-13 20:36:53 <realazthat> wth is it with bitcoin projects and AGPL
1355 2013-06-13 20:37:02 * realazthat burns them with fire
1356 2013-06-13 20:37:02 <BlueMatt> which ones
1357 2013-06-13 20:37:07 <realazthat> several of them
1358 2013-06-13 20:37:13 * BlueMatt has a few, but relicenses if anyone asks
1359 2013-06-13 20:37:41 <realazthat> armory, opentransactions,libbitcoin
1360 2013-06-13 20:37:44 <BlueMatt> well, I think only one
1361 2013-06-13 20:37:47 <BlueMatt> ahh
1362 2013-06-13 20:38:15 <realazthat> bitcoin-abe
1363 2013-06-13 20:38:53 <BlueMatt> anyone seen segfault at "int64 nValueIn = coins.vout[txin.prevout.n].nValue;" main.cpp:4255 with test-patches
1364 2013-06-13 20:39:06 <realazthat> and this is just preposterous: "The project is licensed as AGPL with a lesser clause. It may be used within a proprietary project, but the core library and any changes to it must be published online"
1365 2013-06-13 20:39:11 <realazthat> - libbitcoin
1366 2013-06-13 20:39:18 <realazthat> why AGPL then ??!
1367 2013-06-13 20:39:22 <realazthat> morons
1368 2013-06-13 20:39:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: ^
1369 2013-06-13 20:39:35 <realazthat> that is LGPL
1370 2013-06-13 20:39:43 <Luke-Jr> realazthat: sounds like LAGPL :p
1371 2013-06-13 20:39:55 <Luke-Jr> realazthat: AGPL = if you can access it over the network, you have a right to source
1372 2013-06-13 20:39:57 <realazthat> why why use something like AGPL at all
1373 2013-06-13 20:40:04 <realazthat> uch
1374 2013-06-13 20:40:07 * realazthat shudders
1375 2013-06-13 20:40:09 <Luke-Jr> AGPL makes sense for network servers
1376 2013-06-13 20:40:12 <Luke-Jr> like Eloipool
1377 2013-06-13 20:40:32 <realazthat> tbh, in my mind, anything GPL is just waiting to be reimplemented as non-copyleft
1378 2013-06-13 20:40:54 PK has quit ()
1379 2013-06-13 20:41:05 <nsh> that's because you're a freedom traitor, realazthat
1380 2013-06-13 20:41:12 <Luke-Jr> license trolling is really off-topic here..
1381 2013-06-13 20:41:17 <realazthat> :P
1382 2013-06-13 20:41:24 <Luke-Jr> take it to #anime or something
1383 2013-06-13 20:41:26 <Luke-Jr> :P
1384 2013-06-13 20:41:26 <realazthat> I like free, real freedom
1385 2013-06-13 20:41:28 <nsh> lol
1386 2013-06-13 20:41:45 <Luke-Jr> realazthat: freedom to lock others up, you mean
1387 2013-06-13 20:41:49 <realazthat> but AGPL is just something I can't touch
1388 2013-06-13 20:42:06 <realazthat> Luke-Jr: I'll take that freedom, but not give it :D
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1411 2013-06-13 21:18:51 <Guest__> hello, can someone help me with bitcoind API - listunspent and createrawtransaction
1412 2013-06-13 21:20:06 <nsh> Guest__, please state your problem in detail
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1415 2013-06-13 21:22:17 <Guest__> nsh, if I need to include tx like satoshidice do to create new transaction, how to deal with fees and low coin balance? e.g. I received tx for 0.1, but on this account I don't have enough coins, is it possible to get them from another account?
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1417 2013-06-13 21:22:58 <sipa> you can use any wallet coins (unspent outputs) as inputs to a transaction
1418 2013-06-13 21:23:06 <sipa> the address they were sent to does not matter
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1420 2013-06-13 21:24:19 <Guest__> but if I for example has fresh wallet with two accounts A & B, A has 0.1 coin B has 0 coins, on the B account i receive tx for 0.1 coin, and for example i want to return 0.15 coins take 0.04 to change and rest to fees, how to create such raw transaction?
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1423 2013-06-13 21:25:45 <uberhaxlor__> http://www.instructables.com/id/Bitcoin-Simple-Sticky-Wallet/ sticky wallet please test and give feedback thanks ;)
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1426 2013-06-13 21:31:57 <gfawkes> question.. how exactly could i go about getting a single satoshi assigned to a single new address in my wallet?
1427 2013-06-13 21:32:11 debiantoruser has joined
1428 2013-06-13 21:32:16 <sipa> why would you want that?
1429 2013-06-13 21:32:32 <sipa> (in 0.8.2 you can't, btw)
1430 2013-06-13 21:32:40 <pjorrit> setting up savings accounts for his kids obviously
1431 2013-06-13 21:32:45 <gfawkes> well at some point we're gonna be at that level of granularity
1432 2013-06-13 21:32:51 <sipa> maybe
1433 2013-06-13 21:32:59 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1434 2013-06-13 21:33:16 <gfawkes> so i'm gaming in my mind the ramifications of needing to exchange satoshis
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1436 2013-06-13 21:33:48 <gfawkes> if you got a single satoshi to a single address, then the private key could be exchanged
1437 2013-06-13 21:34:07 <sipa> if you trust your peer
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1440 2013-06-13 21:34:26 <gfawkes> that kind of creates a derivative market
1441 2013-06-13 21:34:38 <sipa> also, why only a single satoshi?
1442 2013-06-13 21:34:47 <sipa> you can trade by trading keys in any case
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1444 2013-06-13 21:35:06 <sipa> but it's a pretty bad idea, as the receiver can't know the sender won't spend the coins from under him
1445 2013-06-13 21:35:22 <gfawkes> who wouldn't want their satoshis to be exchanged for $1? :)
1446 2013-06-13 21:35:37 <sipa> i don't see the relevance of the amount stored on it
1447 2013-06-13 21:35:49 <nsh> ideas that end in "that creates a derivatives market" considered harmful
1448 2013-06-13 21:35:51 <gfawkes> ot
1449 2013-06-13 21:36:12 <gfawkes> it's like saying would you rather sell 12 packs of sodas or individual cans
1450 2013-06-13 21:36:24 cads has joined
1451 2013-06-13 21:36:25 <gfawkes> some folks like to sell individual cans, others like to sell packs
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1453 2013-06-13 21:37:04 <gfawkes> right now we're kind of forced to sell blocks of bitcoins rather than individual satoshis
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1455 2013-06-13 21:37:38 <sipa> there is no 'forcing' as there is no inherent advantage to smaller amounts
1456 2013-06-13 21:37:54 <sipa> an individual can has an advantage over a pack, in that it is ligher to carry for example
1457 2013-06-13 21:38:14 <sipa> but that is not true for bitcoin: any coin is as easy to handle as any other, regardless of its value
1458 2013-06-13 21:38:46 <sipa> hell, even 0 satoshi coins are possible in theory
1459 2013-06-13 21:38:53 <sipa> go trade those!
1460 2013-06-13 21:38:58 <michagogo> In theory?
1461 2013-06-13 21:39:09 <sipa> they're non-standard and have been for a while
1462 2013-06-13 21:39:11 <gfawkes> correct, you and i get that because of interest and technical understanding, but _people_ in general don't get that
1463 2013-06-13 21:39:25 <gfawkes> they like their discrete little world
1464 2013-06-13 21:39:46 <gfawkes> so if you sold someone "a bitcoin" that was a single satoshi
1465 2013-06-13 21:39:59 <nsh> the lowest common denominator of comprehensive is no basis for technology
1466 2013-06-13 21:40:15 <nsh> *comprehension
1467 2013-06-13 21:40:27 <gfawkes> they'd be just as happy as long as that satoshi was worth the same as the fractional representation
1468 2013-06-13 21:41:03 <gfawkes> im not saying that it is, but if someone was looking to retail bitcoins they'd be forced to deal with that
1469 2013-06-13 21:42:19 <nsh> how many people do you know who retail cash?
1470 2013-06-13 21:42:41 <gfawkes> lots, they call themselves We Buy Gold
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1472 2013-06-13 21:42:48 * nsh frowns
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1474 2013-06-13 21:43:22 <gfawkes> there are literally a dozen gold purchasers and sellers in retail outlets within a 2 mile radius of where i am
1475 2013-06-13 21:43:52 <gfawkes> people dont think of them as cash retailers though
1476 2013-06-13 21:44:01 <gfawkes> but that's all they are
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1478 2013-06-13 21:44:16 <nsh> i imagine they are pawnbrokers, which is a pretty different line of business
1479 2013-06-13 21:44:22 <gfawkes> nope
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1481 2013-06-13 21:44:38 <nsh> ok
1482 2013-06-13 21:44:45 <gfawkes> http://www.cashforgolddallas.com/
1483 2013-06-13 21:44:50 <gfawkes> that's an example
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1485 2013-06-13 21:46:56 <gfawkes> what would be interesting is to create some kind of micro/satoshi level transmission mechanism
1486 2013-06-13 21:47:20 <gfawkes> such that people could actually leverage a satoshi w/o worrying about the 0.005 fee
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1490 2013-06-13 21:49:01 <nsh> gfawkes, http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4937/are-there-any-active-bitcoin-leveraged-trading-platforms-available
1491 2013-06-13 21:49:21 <nsh> bitcoin is not particularly suited to very small transactions
1492 2013-06-13 21:49:53 <gfawkes> only right now because the fiat price is so low
1493 2013-06-13 21:50:56 <nsh> there will always be a level at which relaying and mining transactions becomes uneconomic
1494 2013-06-13 21:51:17 <nsh> the alternative is spam
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1496 2013-06-13 21:52:26 <gfawkes> right, but i'd bet that if a single satoshi was worth say $5USD, that there wouldn't be too many folks just spamming the network
1497 2013-06-13 21:52:41 <gfawkes> it would become uneconomic to do so
1498 2013-06-13 21:52:43 <phantomcircuit> gfawkes, there are very clear rules and regulations around the sale/purchase of gold for cash
1499 2013-06-13 21:53:15 <phantomcircuit> those rules are in general much less strict than the ones FinCEN guidance would imply similar operations dealing in bitcoins would have to follow
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1501 2013-06-13 21:53:31 <phantomcircuit> largely because there are specific rules for gold in a lot of law
1502 2013-06-13 21:53:40 <phantomcircuit> (which really doesn't make sense but whatever)
1503 2013-06-13 21:53:53 <theorbtwo> phantomcircuit: Holdover from gold standards, I expect.
1504 2013-06-13 21:54:10 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, hold over from long before that even i suspect
1505 2013-06-13 21:54:24 <Guest__> checked https://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt, but still dont get how to create a new raw transaction which is BIGGER than one that just camein, and if I dont have another unspent transaction to include with the new one?
1506 2013-06-13 21:54:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa, can you remove a private key from the wallet?
1507 2013-06-13 21:55:01 <phantomcircuit> (cleanly)
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1509 2013-06-13 21:55:32 <gmaxwell> Guest__: uh, you can't create a transaction with more funds than you have.
1510 2013-06-13 21:56:18 <Guest__> gmaxwell, but if I have funds just not in the unspent list?
1511 2013-06-13 21:56:52 <gfawkes> i think fincen is trying to cool things off a bit from reading the speech transcript released today (http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/speech/pdf/20130613.pdf)
1512 2013-06-13 21:57:14 <gmaxwell> Guest__: does not compute
1513 2013-06-13 21:57:22 <phantomcircuit> Guest__, you cant spent funds if they're spent already either
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1515 2013-06-13 21:57:36 <phantomcircuit> unless you're trying to generate a double spend
1516 2013-06-13 21:57:42 <phantomcircuit> but the rpc code doesn't allow that
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1518 2013-06-13 21:57:49 <phantomcircuit> since it's not a useful thing to let people do
1519 2013-06-13 21:57:57 <phantomcircuit> and it confuses some of the wallet code
1520 2013-06-13 21:58:30 <Guest__> gmaxwell, phantomcircuit, then how satoshidice do this? is it always has a list of unspent transactions to include with?
1521 2013-06-13 21:59:02 <Guest__> why it's not possible to include funds from wallet with the new rawtransaction?
1522 2013-06-13 21:59:45 <gmaxwell> Your question doesn't make sense, sorry.
1523 2013-06-13 22:00:35 <gmaxwell> That site also gets ripped off a fair amount, so you should be cautious in immitating them, whatever the heck you're doing.
1524 2013-06-13 22:00:55 <Guest__> gmaxwell, satoshidice works with zero confirmations, it includes your transaction to send you winning amount
1525 2013-06-13 22:01:40 <phantomcircuit> Guest__, they run their own client entirely
1526 2013-06-13 22:01:45 <phantomcircuit> they do some very stupid things
1527 2013-06-13 22:02:12 <phantomcircuit> indeed the only reason they aren't losing money is that the house edge is massive
1528 2013-06-13 22:02:17 <gmaxwell> Guest__: I know how the site works.
1529 2013-06-13 22:02:42 <Guest__> i know SD uses bitcoinj, they run it because bitcoin didn't have raw things until 0.7
1530 2013-06-13 22:02:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well, more because they wait for confirmation for txn which are not trivial amounts.
1531 2013-06-13 22:03:28 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, not really if you do the math their house edge is large enough that even if you could pull off nearly 90% double spends you still would lose money
1532 2013-06-13 22:03:38 <michagogo> gmaxwell: How can they get ripped off?
1533 2013-06-13 22:03:48 <Guest__> but my question is how do SD creates new transaction with my input which is bigger?
1534 2013-06-13 22:03:51 <gmaxwell> michagogo: double spend your losses.
1535 2013-06-13 22:04:07 <michagogo> Guest__: They put in more inputs
1536 2013-06-13 22:04:19 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: Try harder at math.
1537 2013-06-13 22:04:28 <Guest__> gmaxwell i think about doublespent losses, they send you back you bid amount * 0.005. preventing you to doublespent
1538 2013-06-13 22:04:31 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm maybe that was for re rolling
1539 2013-06-13 22:04:39 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Ah.
1540 2013-06-13 22:04:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah it is, iirc the point at which they start losing money is 84% of lossing transactions would need to get rerolled
1541 2013-06-13 22:05:03 <michagogo> So not sending money when they shouldn't be, but rather just avoiding losses
1542 2013-06-13 22:05:20 <michagogo> Though it may be hard to get your transaction propagated across the network...
1543 2013-06-13 22:05:57 <gmaxwell> Guest__: you're confused and going to get you (or whomever you're working for) ripped off.
1544 2013-06-13 22:06:24 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, find me their node and you'll find them bankrupt in no time
1545 2013-06-13 22:07:12 <michagogo> Would they not broadcast the transaction widely before or at the same time as they broadcast the result?
1546 2013-06-13 22:07:36 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, i doubt they broadcast the transaction at all
1547 2013-06-13 22:07:39 <phantomcircuit> just the result
1548 2013-06-13 22:07:44 <phantomcircuit> thus
1549 2013-06-13 22:07:46 <phantomcircuit> find me their node
1550 2013-06-13 22:07:59 <michagogo> Why would they not broadcast it?
1551 2013-06-13 22:08:14 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, because it's not the obvious mechanism of action
1552 2013-06-13 22:08:24 <Guest__> gmaxwell anyways i want to understand it. and my current problem is to get how to create rawtransaction with bigger outputs
1553 2013-06-13 22:08:35 <phantomcircuit> the obvious mechanism is to simply process incoming transactions and broadcast the result
1554 2013-06-13 22:08:43 <gmaxwell> Guest__: add more inputs.
1555 2013-06-13 22:09:20 <phantomcircuit> Guest__, you need to read more about how things actually work before you're going to be able to do whatever it is you're trying to do
1556 2013-06-13 22:09:33 <phantomcircuit> you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the network actually works
1557 2013-06-13 22:09:40 <Guest__> gmaxwell i get it, but if in case SD my input is the only one they have in time, do they send money to themselves to include it or what?
1558 2013-06-13 22:09:42 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, get it?
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1560 2013-06-13 22:10:11 <gmaxwell> Guest__: if your input is the only one they have that means they are bankrupt and can't make good on their bets.
1561 2013-06-13 22:10:43 <nsh> i think what we're learning here is that you need capital to start a casino
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1563 2013-06-13 22:10:58 <phantomcircuit> nsh, only if the first bet is a winner
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1566 2013-06-13 22:11:05 <Guest__> okay, next question
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1568 2013-06-13 22:11:28 <nsh> phantomcircuit, right :)
1569 2013-06-13 22:11:47 <phantomcircuit> damn i forget what i was doing
1570 2013-06-13 22:12:00 <Guest__> with zero confirmation they include my input to prevent me from doublespending, which is better in that case include only my transaction or someone else too?
1571 2013-06-13 22:12:23 <gmaxwell> it doesn't prevent you from double spending.
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1573 2013-06-13 22:13:17 <Guest__> in case the transaction will not be included in the block
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1575 2013-06-13 22:14:18 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, get it?
1576 2013-06-13 22:14:36 <Luke-Jr> Guest__: spending an input does NOTHING to stop it from being double-spent
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1579 2013-06-13 22:15:57 <Luke-Jr> Guest__: also note *part* of the reason SD is afloat, is because they don't operate honestly - if someone double-spends them, they often leave numerous winners unpaid entirely
1580 2013-06-13 22:16:12 <Guest__> yeap my bad, i meant if tx is invalid, both transaction will be declined
1581 2013-06-13 22:17:29 <Guest__> Luke-Jr, yeap that's why i'm asking. if one transaction is invalid it will invalidate another, good, one.
1582 2013-06-13 22:18:23 <Guest__> I thought to include only one transaction in createrawtransaction and cover it with own funds, to exclude rest transactions.
1583 2013-06-13 22:19:10 <michagogo> phantomcircuit: I think so
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1633 2013-06-13 23:18:52 <lado> What's wrong with this course?
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1636 2013-06-13 23:21:05 <nsh> lado, make sense.
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1652 2013-06-13 23:32:05 <skinnkavaj> http://prism-break.org/
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1659 2013-06-13 23:32:37 <copumpkin> qado: quit it
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1661 2013-06-13 23:32:48 * copumpkin flexes
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