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  21 2013-06-14 00:30:14 <Neozonz> how can one change the "subver" tag of a modified pooling client?
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  24 2013-06-14 00:31:55 <Luke-Jr> Neozonz: what?
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  41 2013-06-14 01:02:24 <Neozonz> Luke-Jr, http://pastebin.com/WCmbeVA9
  42 2013-06-14 01:03:04 <Luke-Jr> util.cpp or something iirc
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  45 2013-06-14 01:04:46 <Neozonz> thanks
  46 2013-06-14 01:04:48 <Neozonz> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0014
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  48 2013-06-14 01:06:31 <gwillen> "The user agent does not provide a method for clients to work around and behave differently to different implementations, as this will lead to protocol fracturing."
  49 2013-06-14 01:06:40 <gwillen> Is that not _exactly_ what it provides, and what makes it dangerous?
  50 2013-06-14 01:06:46 Transisto has joined
  51 2013-06-14 01:06:51 <gwillen> See also HTTP.
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  53 2013-06-14 01:08:06 <Neozonz>  Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood) :O
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  64 2013-06-14 01:16:33 <Neozonz> thx for help
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 165 2013-06-14 05:09:20 <judah> preferred testNet these days?
 166 2013-06-14 05:09:29 <sipa> 3
 167 2013-06-14 05:09:29 <lianj> ?
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 169 2013-06-14 05:09:38 <judah> thx
 170 2013-06-14 05:09:51 <sipa> that's the only one implented anymore
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 172 2013-06-14 05:10:06 <lianj> yea, testnet3 or testnet-in-a-box
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 174 2013-06-14 05:13:35 <Luke-Jr> I prefer testnet 4000
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 190 2013-06-14 05:33:26 <Lophie> Hey guys I was thinking if bigger transactions deserve higher fees because of its toll on the block chain. How about if a transaction that renders a large transaction prunable getting a discount on the fees?
 191 2013-06-14 05:33:41 <Lophie> Any one have a thought about this?
 192 2013-06-14 05:34:55 <gmaxwell> Miners don't have any explicit direct motivation to prefer such a transaction.
 193 2013-06-14 05:35:17 <gmaxwell> Large transaction need higher fees because they consume more space which could otherwise be used by other transactions.
 194 2013-06-14 05:36:52 <gmaxwell> Or, said differently, picking transactions in order by fees per byte maximized income for a miner. Ignoring dependencies, any other strategy makes less income.
 195 2013-06-14 05:37:23 <gmaxwell> (though— miners aren't maximally greedy— and the priority algorithim used for free txn does generally reward transactions which consume more inputs)
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 229 2013-06-14 07:05:00 <Lophie> Sorry no signal on the road, so guyd did anyone discuss what I mentioned? Lowering fees for transactions that would render old very big transactions prunable?
 230 2013-06-14 07:05:47 <Lophie> It will create insintive to help reduce the block chain load
 231 2013-06-14 07:06:16 <Lophie> Eh guess the developers are hqnging around other places these days
 232 2013-06-14 07:06:22 <Lophie> >_>
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 242 2013-06-14 07:15:21 <lophie2> Judah sorry bad connection on the road
 243 2013-06-14 07:15:26 <lophie2> The last point actually suggest it. So a person would prefer to pay more fees to speed up a transaction and this algorithim would prioritiez such a transaction even with standard fees (standard at that time). So basically what I was talking about is already implemented through prioritize without extra fees. Nice
 244 2013-06-14 07:16:16 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 245 2013-06-14 07:16:19 <lophie2> Thanks bro
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 254 2013-06-14 07:25:22 <sipa> lophie2: sometimes they also sleep
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 256 2013-06-14 07:26:13 <lophie2> Sipa: lol, not sure if gmaxwell does, he always look weary :(
 257 2013-06-14 07:26:29 <sipa> heh
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 300 2013-06-14 08:48:32 <melvster> does anyone know if colored coins are being used in the wild, or are they strictly theoretical?
 301 2013-06-14 08:49:25 <Animazing> I think the latter
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 307 2013-06-14 08:55:05 <melvster> Animazing: thanks ... do you know who's working with it, the armory folks?
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 310 2013-06-14 08:57:31 <Animazing> You should look on the forums for the topic about it
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 312 2013-06-14 08:57:40 <Animazing> there is a PoC implementation last I read
 313 2013-06-14 08:57:41 <melvster> thanks!
 314 2013-06-14 08:57:50 <melvster> PoC?
 315 2013-06-14 08:58:02 <melvster> am just reading ... https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/bitcoinx
 316 2013-06-14 08:59:47 <The_Fly> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1IYvJs5GGw <-- btcd ... interesting
 317 2013-06-14 08:59:51 <Animazing> Proof of Concept :)
 318 2013-06-14 09:02:22 <The_Fly> he kind of smirks when he's comparing to the bitcoind source
 319 2013-06-14 09:02:36 <melvster> lol thx
 320 2013-06-14 09:02:47 <melvster> is killerstorm behind armory?
 321 2013-06-14 09:05:02 <Animazing> nope
 322 2013-06-14 09:05:20 <melvster> thx, got a bunch of info i need
 323 2013-06-14 09:05:30 <The_Fly> this go implementation seems to have some memory footprint, concurrency, code quality/readability and reliability advantages... which is a shame as i do love c++
 324 2013-06-14 09:06:34 <The_Fly> i do like that he encourages use of multiple clients
 325 2013-06-14 09:07:22 <The_Fly> but yea... sqlite...
 326 2013-06-14 09:07:31 <The_Fly> hmmmm
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 329 2013-06-14 09:12:47 <The_Fly> lol, he likes to comment on the 5000 line main.cpp "spaghetti code"
 330 2013-06-14 09:13:11 <sipa> he should have seen the state of the code two years ago :p
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 332 2013-06-14 09:13:34 <sipa> but sure, it's a mess still
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 334 2013-06-14 09:14:04 <The_Fly> hehe
 335 2013-06-14 09:14:53 <sipa> i mean... the wallet was part of main back then, and did direct calls to the gui...
 336 2013-06-14 09:15:33 <The_Fly> yeah it's all gradual refactoring and growth in parallel
 337 2013-06-14 09:15:54 <The_Fly> and this client has made it all happen (right?) so...
 338 2013-06-14 09:16:44 <sipa> uhu, and there's a general conservatism about changes, as everything needs to be reviewed carefully, and security and some features take priority over cleanups
 339 2013-06-14 09:17:15 <sipa> i wish that was different, but can't have everything
 340 2013-06-14 09:17:25 <The_Fly> it's certainly not all about a tidy implementation, at least not first time round
 341 2013-06-14 09:17:35 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 342 2013-06-14 09:17:57 <sipa> yeah
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 346 2013-06-14 09:21:34 <The_Fly> so he can wipe that smirk off his face!
 347 2013-06-14 09:21:51 <The_Fly> lol
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 349 2013-06-14 09:24:34 <The_Fly> ipv6 and tor support is a good step
 350 2013-06-14 09:24:45 <sipa> i think there's also this weird bias, that badly modularized code mostly hurts development by people who are not yet contributing
 351 2013-06-14 09:25:10 <The_Fly> ive not had any problem navigating the bitcoind source
 352 2013-06-14 09:25:12 <sipa> those who know the code have therefor less need for changing it
 353 2013-06-14 09:25:41 <sipa> well, it's still not particularly well structured
 354 2013-06-14 09:26:02 <The_Fly> no, but it's all machine code at the end of the day
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 357 2013-06-14 09:26:07 <sipa> lol
 358 2013-06-14 09:27:22 <The_Fly> time can also be wasted modularising, that's not "agile"
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 363 2013-06-14 09:30:17 <The_Fly> i do see a libbitcoin on github
 364 2013-06-14 09:30:39 <sipa> that's amir's library
 365 2013-06-14 09:30:55 <The_Fly> i haven't dug into the source yet
 366 2013-06-14 09:31:12 <sipa> there's also libcoin which is a refactored version of bitcoind 0.5 or so
 367 2013-06-14 09:31:25 <The_Fly> interesting
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 369 2013-06-14 09:32:02 <sipa> libbitcoin is from scratch, but no idea how complete it is
 370 2013-06-14 09:32:21 <The_Fly> there aren't many files in src/
 371 2013-06-14 09:32:38 <The_Fly> thats not much to go by but hm
 372 2013-06-14 09:32:56 <sipa> and in general it is extremely hard to know whether full node implementations do not have subtle fork risks
 373 2013-06-14 09:33:32 <The_Fly> (amir seems to be actively working on libbitcoin at the moment)
 374 2013-06-14 09:35:15 <The_Fly> yes, the speaker justifies their effort towards the implementation in that it would identify which clients have the bug responsible for the fork
 375 2013-06-14 09:36:10 <sipa> ?
 376 2013-06-14 09:36:29 <The_Fly> i will quote
 377 2013-06-14 09:37:57 Subo1978_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 378 2013-06-14 09:38:58 <The_Fly> "bits of proof sailed right through the March fork no problem. say you have 10 implementations, miners ask all these implemenations, 9 say yes, 1 says no... so 10% affected, off on their own altchain"
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 382 2013-06-14 09:41:51 <The_Fly> well, thats just informing the audience about the obvious benefits of there being more choice of clients
 383 2013-06-14 09:41:56 gjj_ has joined
 384 2013-06-14 09:42:48 <sipa> it will make the inpact of forks smaller indeed
 385 2013-06-14 09:42:59 <sipa> but it may make reasoning about them harder
 386 2013-06-14 09:43:20 <sipa> as there are n^2 combinations of clients  to cobsider
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 389 2013-06-14 09:46:15 <warren> vendors have ways to automate a "stop and inspect" condition
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 401 2013-06-14 10:00:15 volante has joined
 402 2013-06-14 10:01:15 <volante> im seeing some attacks on chinacoin.  they seem to be effective.  not sure if it would be of interest for bitcoin devs
 403 2013-06-14 10:03:27 <The_Fly> why didn't we just call them "credits" and be done with it
 404 2013-06-14 10:04:36 Tantadruj has joined
 405 2013-06-14 10:06:08 <volante> how come the debug logfile is not timestamped?
 406 2013-06-14 10:06:47 <sipa> you need -logtimestamps if you want that
 407 2013-06-14 10:07:20 <volante> i see, thanks
 408 2013-06-14 10:08:16 <volante> in chinacoin, someone was able to connect to me and send me a really large new blockchain (main blockchain is ~50k blocks, they sent meonethat was ~300k blocks).  my client then sat there trying to sync up with all these blocks until i restarted it.  then it happened again
 409 2013-06-14 10:08:38 <volante> my debug file is full of "disconnected misbehaving node".  because im getting blocks with invalid proof of work or invalid txids
 410 2013-06-14 10:09:05 <volante> just worried that this kind of attack could be used on bitcoin too
 411 2013-06-14 10:10:51 <volante> also in the log it mentioned receiving 30,000 ip addresses of peers and trying to connect to them or something
 412 2013-06-14 10:12:14 ShapeShifter499 has quit (Excess Flood)
 413 2013-06-14 10:12:38 <volante> they appear to be succesfully taking out solo miners with this
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 419 2013-06-14 10:16:34 <TD> sipa: how do you mean, "everything depends on main"?
 420 2013-06-14 10:16:43 <TD> sipa: it's only one C++ file, right? not the header
 421 2013-06-14 10:17:19 <judah> where can I read up about testNet?
 422 2013-06-14 10:17:33 <sipa> TD: still, it means you can't use CChainParams without having the code from main in your project
 423 2013-06-14 10:19:35 <TD> surely it's up to the pull request that moves CBlock somewhere else to fix that?
 424 2013-06-14 10:19:50 <TD> there isn't any way to do it today without undoing the move of the genesis block, which is inherently chain specific
 425 2013-06-14 10:20:04 * duSn passes judah a google url 
 426 2013-06-14 10:20:57 <TD> bitcoind code really isn't an API at the moment, definitely not in the scope of this refactoring to fix that, though it gets us a bit closer
 427 2013-06-14 10:21:23 <sipa> TD: right, it would be possible to just put all genesis block parameters in cchainstate, and have it be actually just constructed at chain initialization, but i agree this is cleaner
 428 2013-06-14 10:21:45 whiterabbit has joined
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 430 2013-06-14 10:22:40 <sipa> and sure, it's far from a complete cleanup, but i try to not undo the efforts to modularize things
 431 2013-06-14 10:23:06 <CodeShark> the alternative is a complete reimplementation
 432 2013-06-14 10:23:15 <CodeShark> which is almost assuredly a no go
 433 2013-06-14 10:23:56 <sipa> anyway, #2767 can fix that dependency again, if it's merged after #2632
 434 2013-06-14 10:24:19 <sipa> CodeShark: you ok with that?
 435 2013-06-14 10:24:39 <CodeShark> looking
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 441 2013-06-14 10:27:18 <CodeShark> yikes! #2767 modifies 157 files in a single commit!
 442 2013-06-14 10:27:29 <CodeShark> and some of the file modifications are just white space
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 444 2013-06-14 10:28:02 <TD> urgh
 445 2013-06-14 10:28:03 ericmuyser has joined
 446 2013-06-14 10:28:08 <TD> brilliant. don't really want to rebase on top of that ...
 447 2013-06-14 10:28:12 <sipa> uh-oh
 448 2013-06-14 10:28:30 <sipa> i didn't mean 2767
 449 2013-06-14 10:28:32 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 450 2013-06-14 10:28:38 <sipa> but 2758
 451 2013-06-14 10:28:52 <CodeShark> ah, that one looks more familiar :)
 452 2013-06-14 10:31:10 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 454 2013-06-14 10:31:12 <CodeShark> doesn't seem that rebasing 2758 on top of 2632 will be too difficult - although of course I'd prefer them merged in the opposite order :p
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 456 2013-06-14 10:32:44 <sipa> TD, CodeShark: i'm very glad we suddenly see a ton of cleanup pullreqs, the problem is of course they tend to conflict easily with eachother...
 457 2013-06-14 10:33:06 <CodeShark> a little top-down coordination might be in order
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 459 2013-06-14 10:35:03 <CodeShark> one of my hopes with these cleanups is precisely being able to allow different developers to clean up separate parts of the app without stepping on each other
 460 2013-06-14 10:35:15 <sipa> yeah
 461 2013-06-14 10:35:17 <sipa> long way to go :)
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 463 2013-06-14 10:42:38 <CodeShark> even pull reqs that have nothing to do with cleanup, if they touch files like main.h/main.cpp, it's usually a problem :)
 464 2013-06-14 10:43:22 <CodeShark> I'd like to see validation.h/validation.cpp
 465 2013-06-14 10:43:29 <sipa> same
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 467 2013-06-14 10:43:39 <sipa> some things i thought about:
 468 2013-06-14 10:43:54 <sipa> CTxMempool should just be the data structure, and not do validation itself
 469 2013-06-14 10:43:55 <warren> sounds like I'll need to rebase clean on bitcoin-0.9 to make our tree less of a mess
 470 2013-06-14 10:44:08 <CodeShark> sipa: completely agree
 471 2013-06-14 10:44:10 <sipa> changes to CTxMempool will be done through the validation code
 472 2013-06-14 10:44:31 <sipa> second: the main datastructure in validation.h should be CValidationResult
 473 2013-06-14 10:44:39 <sipa> which can become more of a CValidationState then
 474 2013-06-14 10:45:07 <sipa> all functions/methods that take a CValidationResult, can become methods of it
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 476 2013-06-14 10:47:06 <CodeShark> it would be nice to be able to reuse the mempool structure in SPV nodes to enable better double-spend handling
 477 2013-06-14 10:47:15 <sipa> yes
 478 2013-06-14 10:47:23 <sipa> and maybe even inside wallet
 479 2013-06-14 10:48:16 <sipa> but that's more complex
 480 2013-06-14 10:48:34 <CodeShark> ideally I'd like to remove the wallet from bitcoind entirely :)
 481 2013-06-14 10:48:50 <sipa> yeah
 482 2013-06-14 10:49:41 <t7> and tx generation
 483 2013-06-14 10:49:48 <CodeShark> I'm looking towards an architecture that clearly separates transaction proposal from transaction signing
 484 2013-06-14 10:49:53 <CodeShark> and both of these are removed from validation/relay
 485 2013-06-14 10:51:01 <CodeShark> and a set of mechanisms to pass around unsigned or partially signed transactions off the p2p network
 486 2013-06-14 10:51:09 macboz_ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 487 2013-06-14 10:52:22 <CodeShark> rather than wallet-as-a-collection-of-private-keys, I see wallet-as-a-set-of-authorization-policies
 488 2013-06-14 10:53:22 <CodeShark> with the capacity to rotate keys, reissue keys, etc...
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 493 2013-06-14 10:56:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: mind updating #2541?
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 497 2013-06-14 11:19:37 <Bezzeb> Does anyone know if somebody is working on implementing OATH HOTP in a wallet client to provide OTP services for devices like the Yubikey?  I've been searching.  Would like to see wallets become immune to keyloggers via external USB disposable key generators...
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 501 2013-06-14 11:36:17 <TD> Bezzeb: see TREZOR/BitSafe
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 509 2013-06-14 11:54:02 <melvster> Bezzeb: trezor is awesome ... ive pre ordered 4
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 633 2013-06-14 14:17:43 <nateless> hello can someone help me with senrawtransaction, it fails with tx rejected, no data in logs :( outputs are lower than inputs. signed returned true.
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 636 2013-06-14 14:23:35 <michagogo> nateless: Can you pastebin the transaction?
 637 2013-06-14 14:24:09 <nateless> michagogo, sure http://pastebin.com/u96AbRRk
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 639 2013-06-14 14:26:29 <nateless> the only thing in logs i see is ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type right after ThreadRPCServer method=sendrawtransaction
 640 2013-06-14 14:26:50 <michagogo> blockchain.info says the transaction already exists
 641 2013-06-14 14:27:13 <michagogo> https://blockchain.info/tx/a501eace9c48c24f5ff746eeac337f631289da4ab5006269bf05e8d2e5e20307
 642 2013-06-14 14:27:21 <michagogo> Though my node appears not to have seen it
 643 2013-06-14 14:27:25 <nateless> i think someone sent it :)
 644 2013-06-14 14:27:33 <nateless> as i posted on pastebin
 645 2013-06-14 14:27:37 <michagogo> Ah, I see why it's nonstandard
 646 2013-06-14 14:27:41 <michagogo> Too dustu
 647 2013-06-14 14:27:43 <michagogo> dusty*
 648 2013-06-14 14:27:50 <nateless> what does it mean?
 649 2013-06-14 14:27:53 <michagogo> Just 500 satoshis
 650 2013-06-14 14:27:58 <michagogo> on one of the outputs
 651 2013-06-14 14:27:59 <nateless> and how i can broadcast it anyways?
 652 2013-06-14 14:28:36 <michagogo> My node hasn't seen it, it looks like -- probably because it doesn't meet the rules for relay on 0.8.2
 653 2013-06-14 14:28:53 <michagogo> The output to 1GSDYGuNULHFQHqxLQEYafnM6MLb4UN9B1 is too small
 654 2013-06-14 14:29:14 <michagogo> You need at least 5430 satoshis (I think) per output under the new rules
 655 2013-06-14 14:29:25 <nateless> hmm.. it there any flags i can pass to the bitcoind to process such transactions anyways?
 656 2013-06-14 14:29:38 <michagogo> I think there might be one
 657 2013-06-14 14:30:19 <nateless> or should i icnrease fees for such transactions?
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 659 2013-06-14 14:30:43 <michagogo> nateless: Fees aren't relevant here, AFAIK
 660 2013-06-14 14:31:22 <nateless> okay thanks
 661 2013-06-14 14:31:54 <michagogo> I thought there was an option for decreasing the minimum relay size, but I can't find it
 662 2013-06-14 14:32:06 <michagogo> nateless: I'd suggest just sending those coins elsewhere
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 664 2013-06-14 14:32:23 <michagogo> And keeping outputs above 5430 or so satoshis
 665 2013-06-14 14:32:40 <nateless> thank you michagogo
 666 2013-06-14 14:33:08 <michagogo> np
 667 2013-06-14 14:33:37 <nateless> btw how blockchain.info selects nodes it connects to?
 668 2013-06-14 14:33:38 <Bezzeb> melvster and TD - sorry was afk.  Thanks, and I have watched the video presentation with the guys showing off the Trezor a week or two ago and it does look awesome.  But that takes the entire private key out of the wallet entirely doesn't it?  Oh, I get it.  :)  That would supersede my initial fear of keyloggers if you can't sign a transaction without the Trezor...  (lol)
 669 2013-06-14 14:33:55 * TD just did a trezor pre-order
 670 2013-06-14 14:34:02 <TD> Bezzeb: exactly
 671 2013-06-14 14:34:47 <Diablo-D3> td: treazor?
 672 2013-06-14 14:34:54 <Diablo-D3> trezor?
 673 2013-06-14 14:35:10 <Bezzeb> Well that's awesome, i'm gonna go do the same.  But I thought they were fairly far from getting the mechanisms written for implementing in wallets.  I'll go research further - I'm guessing a code base exists already.  (grin)
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 675 2013-06-14 14:35:33 <TD> TREZOR
 676 2013-06-14 14:35:43 <Diablo-D3> a hardware wallet? wtf
 677 2013-06-14 14:35:44 <Diablo-D3> lame
 678 2013-06-14 14:35:49 <TD> Bezzeb: they have command line tools that work with it, i think. it's not integrated with multibit or bitcoin-qt yet
 679 2013-06-14 14:36:31 <TD> the plan is that this will come over the summer
 680 2013-06-14 14:36:33 <TD> but we'll see ....
 681 2013-06-14 14:36:38 <Bezzeb> Just one parting note - I see soft clients as persisting for business use long after customers have gone for hosted wallets or a trezor infrastructure.  So if anyone is working on Sage / Quicken / GL accounting package type solutions - the OTP yubikey generators would be an important part of their security solution I should think.
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 684 2013-06-14 14:37:16 <Bezzeb> The intent from bitcoin-qt is to implement Trezor though?  Oh, I see Gavin's mug shot on their website.  (laugh)
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 686 2013-06-14 14:40:46 <TD> well, "intent". not sure. someone would have to contribute it.
 687 2013-06-14 14:40:48 <TD> it's a big project
 688 2013-06-14 14:40:54 <TD> jim wants to do it for multibit and has committed publicly to doing the work
 689 2013-06-14 14:41:22 Nothing4You is now known as Evil4You
 690 2013-06-14 14:43:16 <TD> woo! apparently i was the first trezor pre-order
 691 2013-06-14 14:45:34 <melvster> Bezzeb: yeah the key is on your device
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 693 2013-06-14 14:47:22 <melvster> TD: no way ... I ordered lots :)
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 695 2013-06-14 14:48:35 <melvster> TD: maybe you are the first "internet" pre order
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 697 2013-06-14 14:53:18 <The_Fly> looks nice
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 699 2013-06-14 14:58:59 <nateless> michagogo, hmm i made another tx, for almost 0.1, and it again failed :/ http://pastebin.com/B3BnVVsW
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 725 2013-06-14 15:21:21 <melvster> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1gc5xh/trezor_presales_just_started/
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 734 2013-06-14 15:30:26 <michagogo> nateless: Still around?
 735 2013-06-14 15:30:40 <nateless> michagogo yeap
 736 2013-06-14 15:30:44 <michagogo> Looks like, according to https://blockchain.info/tx/90cf3e879867d741b9e753261bffc2d2aee038fb48660a7ad4df0ce0117c1806, that transaction has the same problem
 737 2013-06-14 15:30:56 <michagogo> The second output is only 5000 satoshis
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 739 2013-06-14 15:31:15 <michagogo> You need each and every output to be 5430 satoshis or bigger for the transaction to be standard
 740 2013-06-14 15:31:26 <michagogo> 0.00005430, in other words
 741 2013-06-14 15:32:38 <nateless> michagogo, how this transaction is processed? https://blockchain.info/tx/d4b0188c73b5b2e54be3cb604a7fdbafc5eef7a95d73dae47c0f0f8351ae2abe
 742 2013-06-14 15:33:15 <michagogo> nateless: All outputs are 0.00005430 or more
 743 2013-06-14 15:33:50 <michagogo> 90cf3e879867d741b9e753261bffc2d2aee038fb48660a7ad4df0ce0117c1806 has a output of 0.00005000
 744 2013-06-14 15:34:06 <nateless> michagogo, ok got it, thanks again
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 746 2013-06-14 15:41:15 <nateless> michagogo, found one tx with only 0.0005 - https://blockchain.info/tx/90cf3e879867d741b9e753261bffc2d2aee038fb48660a7ad4df0ce0117c1806
 747 2013-06-14 15:41:48 <michagogo> nateless: That's 0.0005
 748 2013-06-14 15:41:52 <michagogo> Not 0.00005
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 750 2013-06-14 15:42:24 <michagogo> Also, older versions of the software or custom configured ones will allow smaller transactions than 0.00005430
 751 2013-06-14 15:42:27 <nateless> michagogo 0.005 is a fee, output is 0.00005
 752 2013-06-14 15:42:59 <nateless> do you know any custom software?
 753 2013-06-14 15:43:00 <michagogo> And any transaction that a miner mines into a block is valid, regardless of how small it is
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 756 2013-06-14 15:43:21 <michagogo> So if a miner got it and decided to put it in the block, it's in the chain.
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 770 2013-06-14 15:56:42 <helo> i'd guess there aren't enough older versions to get a dust output tx relayed to a miner, assuming there is a miner that would mine it
 771 2013-06-14 15:57:27 <helo> can't recall the link to the network version distribution pie chart
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 774 2013-06-14 16:00:23 <michagogo> ;;google bitcoin network version chart
 775 2013-06-14 16:00:23 <gribble> Bitcoin network graphs: <http://bitcoin.sipa.be/>; Bitcoin Charts - Blockchain.info: <http://blockchain.info/charts>; Bitcoin Charts / Bitcoin Network: <http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/>
 776 2013-06-14 16:01:15 <michagogo> ;;google bitcoin network software version chart
 777 2013-06-14 16:01:15 <gribble> Software - Bitcoin: <https://bitcoin.it/wiki/Software>; Bitcoin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin>; Bitcoin Trading Software for MtGox - With Neural Networks ...: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154680.80>
 778 2013-06-14 16:01:23 <michagogo> ;;google bitcoin network software version distribution chart
 779 2013-06-14 16:01:24 <gribble> Bitcoin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin>; Software - Bitcoin: <https://bitcoin.it/wiki/Software>; Bitcoin - Bitcoin: <https://bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin>
 780 2013-06-14 16:02:20 <michagogo> idk
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 782 2013-06-14 16:04:46 <nateless> found pull req for dust: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2577
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 834 2013-06-14 16:49:25 <dangersalad> anyone know why I would get a sh: 1: <my cmd here> not found when using walletnotify in my conf file?
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 885 2013-06-14 17:36:38 <Steve132> Ha anyone written like, an assembler for bitcoin-script?
 886 2013-06-14 17:36:48 <Steve132> or a disassembler?
 887 2013-06-14 17:37:30 <Luke-Jr> builtin to bitcoind..
 888 2013-06-14 17:39:39 <Steve132> Yep, has anyone ever written a seperate one?
 889 2013-06-14 17:40:04 <Steve132> Also, how does one access the one built into bitcoind?
 890 2013-06-14 17:40:41 <lupine> it's pretty trivial. I think I did a quarter of one once
 891 2013-06-14 17:40:50 <lupine> not sure where that ended up
 892 2013-06-14 17:42:37 <Steve132> Given that script is kind-of like an assembly language for a stack-based machine, has anyone ever written a frontend for it?  Like, a high-level language designed to output bitcoin transactions?
 893 2013-06-14 17:43:47 FredEE has joined
 894 2013-06-14 17:43:52 <gmaxwell> I suspect you're greatly overestimating the expressive power of script.
 895 2013-06-14 17:43:54 <Luke-Jr> ot
 896 2013-06-14 17:43:58 <Luke-Jr> it's not turing-complete
 897 2013-06-14 17:44:54 <Luke-Jr> heck, half the opcodes documented on the wiki don't *really* exist
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 900 2013-06-14 17:46:59 <Steve132> > I suspect you're greatly overestimating the expressive power of script.
 901 2013-06-14 17:47:25 <Steve132> No, I'm not, I'm not saying porting a turing-complete language to it...I'm saying someone design somethign thats easier to grok
 902 2013-06-14 17:47:46 <Steve132> Not C or C++, something simpler and designed for it from the beginning
 903 2013-06-14 17:47:59 <Luke-Jr> what exactly about Scrypt is hard? <.<
 904 2013-06-14 17:48:36 <gmaxwell> Steve132: script was designed to be comprehensible from the beginning, in fact.
 905 2013-06-14 17:48:51 <Steve132> Its not that hard,
 906 2013-06-14 17:49:01 <Steve132> but you can use the same argument "What's so hard to understand about assembly?"
 907 2013-06-14 17:49:12 <Steve132> "Assembly is human readable"
 908 2013-06-14 17:49:19 <gmaxwell> Script is not x86/mips/arm assembly.
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 910 2013-06-14 17:49:29 <gmaxwell> It's like forth.
 911 2013-06-14 17:49:43 <gmaxwell> And people do write forth directly, rather than compile to it.
 912 2013-06-14 17:49:44 <Steve132> Basically, generally speaking, most programming languages don't explicitly require you to visualize the stack
 913 2013-06-14 17:49:48 <Luke-Jr> Steve132: abstractions on top of assembly make sense because it *is* turing complete (and nonportable)
 914 2013-06-14 17:51:20 <Steve132> gmaxwell: well, my question was whether people have done it not whether or not you personally think its useful
 915 2013-06-14 17:51:39 <Steve132> people do write assembly directly as well, but that doesn't mean that higher-level languages are useless
 916 2013-06-14 17:53:10 <Luke-Jr> nobody has done it. if you try to, you will surely see why it isn't useful.
 917 2013-06-14 17:53:55 <Steve132> Luke-Jr: why don't you think it would be useful?
 918 2013-06-14 17:54:17 <Luke-Jr> because there's nothing to simplify
 919 2013-06-14 17:54:50 <Steve132> Well, I mean, in terms of readability, composability, and re-usability I think it could use some improvements
 920 2013-06-14 17:55:17 <Steve132> But its all opinion really
 921 2013-06-14 17:56:15 <gmaxwell> You might start by stating a concrete application.
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 924 2013-06-14 17:58:50 <Steve132> gmaxwell: mostly, I just think the idea of creating custom transactions is interesting, but...I can show you an example
 925 2013-06-14 17:59:32 <Steve132> .well, for example, lets say that I wanted to actually use a fancy script to do something...all the script examples I've seen basically have arguments that are like <variableName>
 926 2013-06-14 17:59:36 <Steve132> for example
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 928 2013-06-14 18:00:06 <Steve132> <sons pubkey> CHECKSIGVERIFY <oracle pubkey> CHECKSIGVERIFY <hash> OP_TRUE
 929 2013-06-14 18:00:32 <petertodd> Steve132: First identify what your "fancy script" is even going to do - you're going to soon realize that because the data available to the scripting language is so limited, it basically can't doa nything useful.
 930 2013-06-14 18:01:21 <Steve132> petertodd: I'm not arguing that having different syntax would expand the capabilities...thats dumb.  I'm arguing that things that ARE within the capabilities aren't developer or user-friendly
 931 2013-06-14 18:01:30 <Steve132> if I wanted to actually use that, I'd have to copy-paste it for one transaction, then by hand replace the <> variables with my own data
 932 2013-06-14 18:02:21 <petertodd> Steve132: The capabilities are so limited that the existing system is good enough - there just isn't a usecase for doing much other than the standard scripts.
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 934 2013-06-14 18:02:51 <Steve132> whereas a higher-level language could actually treat those as like, macros, and when you try to execute the script (like, you download it from someone) it queries you for the variables or you could composably call that function programmatically
 935 2013-06-14 18:02:59 <petertodd> Steve132: If you want to do something useful, hack on jgarzik's python-bitcoin library.
 936 2013-06-14 18:05:42 <Steve132> *shrug*
 937 2013-06-14 18:05:53 <Steve132> I guess you answered my primary question.  Thanks
 938 2013-06-14 18:08:02 <Steve132> I was thinking of something functional-ish that doesn't need the programmer to use op-codes, can be embedded directly into programs, and had composability...
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 948 2013-06-14 18:17:09 <Steve132> http://codepad.org/AgQyOmRH
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 951 2013-06-14 18:19:07 <kauzu_> i have a problem with this double spend https://blockchain.info/de/tx/79c6730ac0698886e2021a13f0099f183ce266a5f139922f0c52627477b569ac   --- both are 6-7 days old but none of them becomes valid or removed from the network
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 953 2013-06-14 18:19:57 <gmaxwell> Steve132: pub_key(address)?  A non-standard pubkey isn't necessarily mappable to any kind of address.
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 955 2013-06-14 18:20:13 <gmaxwell> Steve132: "You can also re-use a particular source code
 956 2013-06-14 18:20:14 <gmaxwell> for multiple-transactions, unmodified, without having to manually form them from the input constant data"
 957 2013-06-14 18:20:20 <gmaxwell> is true regardless of how you format things.
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 959 2013-06-14 18:21:21 <gmaxwell> Steve132: perhaps I'm still not seeing what you're trying to accomplish. Can you describe it using an example which isn't a trivial pay to pubkeyhash which doesn't need an explicit script expression at all?
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 962 2013-06-14 18:21:41 <gmaxwell> Perhaps using an example of composibility that you mentioned?
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 964 2013-06-14 18:22:08 <Steve132> yes, working on new examples
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 967 2013-06-14 18:22:40 <Steve132> Just basically going from examples on the wiki
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 969 2013-06-14 18:23:57 <gmaxwell> They may not be ideal, since sort of by definition they are clearly expressable with the existing system.
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 972 2013-06-14 18:25:04 <kauzu_> i have a problem with this double spend https://blockchain.info/de/tx/79c6730ac0698886e2021a13f0099f183ce266a5f139922f0c52627477b569ac   --- both are 6-7 days old but none of them becomes valid or removed from the network
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 977 2013-06-14 18:29:04 <Steve132> gmaxwell: by definition it would be impossible to write a high-level language that represents more constructs than the low-level constructs
 978 2013-06-14 18:29:14 <Steve132> the point is readability and development
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 980 2013-06-14 18:30:16 <gmaxwell> ... What part of 'clearly expressible' was ambiguous?
 981 2013-06-14 18:31:16 <gmaxwell> I'm just telling you if you use the simple script examples then your translation of them into another syntax will likely be _less_ readable, as the examples given were intended to be simple and understanble already.
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 989 2013-06-14 18:38:05 <Steve132> gmaxwell: http://codepad.org/t5Zbh5fv
 990 2013-06-14 18:39:18 <kauzu_> please help me guys
 991 2013-06-14 18:39:19 <kauzu_> i have a problem with this double spend https://blockchain.info/de/tx/79c6730ac0698886e2021a13f0099f183ce266a5f139922f0c52627477b569ac   --- both are 6-7 days old but none of them becomes valid or removed from the network
 992 2013-06-14 18:39:39 <gmaxwell> kauzu_: you're spamming the channel
 993 2013-06-14 18:40:10 <Steve132> Actually, caught a mistake: in 'transaction_puzzle" that should be "==" not "="
 994 2013-06-14 18:41:12 <kauzu_> gmaxwell: sry but i just need help :/ do you think it could help if i send the coins to another adress with a higher fee?
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 996 2013-06-14 18:46:36 <Steve132> Someone (user,power-user, or developer) could keep a "library" of standard or custom transactions that they have installed or written
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 999 2013-06-14 18:47:48 <Steve132> and just invoke them with the required parameters in order to generate one...They could even have variables that would save common addresses or keys in  a console...a custom transaction request would just be a console like "send_to_address_with_message(toms_address,
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1007 2013-06-14 18:57:45 <Steve132> Here's a fun one I just made up: I'm going to put a bounty on the first person to find a public key with the digits of phi...http://codepad.org/vCx20yqC
1008 2013-06-14 18:58:20 <gmaxwell> Steve132: these examples you're giving don't actually work.
1009 2013-06-14 18:58:28 <Steve132> Why not?
1010 2013-06-14 18:58:41 <gmaxwell> You cannot do things like substr.
1011 2013-06-14 18:58:45 <Steve132> I'm aware that only standard transactions are enabled in the network
1012 2013-06-14 18:58:47 <Steve132> yeah, read the comment
1013 2013-06-14 18:58:56 <gmaxwell> It can never be enabled.
1014 2013-06-14 18:59:15 <gmaxwell> (an alternative could be provided though)
1015 2013-06-14 19:00:15 <Steve132> I wasn't making a philisophical argument about whether or not that particular instruction is safe or not.  I don't know and I don't care.  I was just showing how, assuming it WAS enabled, the syntax proposed is easier to read, write and understand for a relatively complex example
1016 2013-06-14 19:01:07 <gmaxwell> I don't think it's easier to read, but I thought it would be less of a waste of time if you actually provided concrete and viable examples.
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1018 2013-06-14 19:01:26 <gmaxwell> (likewise your compose example in the other pastebin wouldn't work either)
1019 2013-06-14 19:01:44 <Steve132> I gave you a great number of other examples that do not use that instruction
1020 2013-06-14 19:01:50 <Steve132> Why not?
1021 2013-06-14 19:02:00 <gmaxwell> also, none of these allow your 'library' usage because none of this tells anyone how to go about constructing the redeeming transaction.
1022 2013-06-14 19:04:06 <Steve132> gmaxwell: For the library code, simply looking at the transaction code could tell you, or the 'source' could tell you, or a verbal instruction could tell you, or you could write some syntax for the 'redeem' part
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1024 2013-06-14 19:04:21 <Steve132> But, what's wrong with the composability example?
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1026 2013-06-14 19:07:01 <Luke-Jr> I have to admit I'm slightly less certain now than I was when we started out
1027 2013-06-14 19:07:09 <Luke-Jr> although your taste in code is ugly :P
1028 2013-06-14 19:07:57 <Steve132> Luke-Jr: well, its a rough draft, I thought of it like an hour ago
1029 2013-06-14 19:08:53 <Luke-Jr> IMO you'd end up with effectively a programmer-friendly-only altcoin using the BC blockchain
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1031 2013-06-14 19:09:15 <Luke-Jr> which maybe you might be interested in for fun, but not too useful except for fun IMO
1032 2013-06-14 19:10:02 <Steve132> Well, the end goal isn't for only programmers to use it...the end goal is for stuff like contracts (or other non-standard transactions that people might come up with) to be easier to develop
1033 2013-06-14 19:10:37 <pigeons> coiledcoin
1034 2013-06-14 19:10:58 <Steve132> In general, cool platforms get cooler when there are good development tools
1035 2013-06-14 19:12:26 <Steve132> I agree with gmaxwell that a way to communicate the expected sig inputs to redeem these transactions is important
1036 2013-06-14 19:12:31 <Steve132> I don't really know how to do that
1037 2013-06-14 19:13:16 <Steve132> but its not a totally insurmountable problem, and its kind of irrelevant anyway: script suffers from the same problem
1038 2013-06-14 19:13:24 <kauzu_> could someone check if he has de57423304e2d9d349d3047d00ddf09c609d3a606b5b6f38f0bc16c1fdd59dce in his mempool?
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1041 2013-06-14 19:18:32 <petertodd> kauzu_: I don't see it
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1043 2013-06-14 19:20:25 <kauzu_> petertodd: could you add it manualy? one of the inputs has been spend for third time with this tx but the first two did not bekome valid and did not disapear from the network http://pastebin.com/AGmcHPu3 this one is with a higher fee i hope it becomes valid soon
1044 2013-06-14 19:21:12 <kauzu_> i think this tx is not relayed often because some nodes have a double of it in mempool
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1048 2013-06-14 19:22:34 <petertodd> kauzu_: done
1049 2013-06-14 19:23:08 <kauzu_> petertodd: thx... i hope this one becomes valid... the coins are dead now for a week
1050 2013-06-14 19:23:17 <petertodd> Incedentally, replace-by-fee.bitcoin.petertodd.org resolves to some bitcoin nodes with my replace-by-fee patch, which will accept any tx that double-spends another provided the second pays higher fees
1051 2013-06-14 19:23:39 <petertodd> kauzu_: I have no idea how much mining power is following that rule, but it's worth a try
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1055 2013-06-14 19:24:49 <kauzu_> petertodd: your link is down
1056 2013-06-14 19:25:12 <kauzu_> or is this only a node and no webservice
1057 2013-06-14 19:25:33 <kauzu_> but its a cool service
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1059 2013-06-14 19:25:39 <petertodd> yeah, it's a node
1060 2013-06-14 19:26:06 <petertodd> it's not really a service, more a change to the way nodes relay transactions that I'm advocating
1061 2013-06-14 19:27:59 <kauzu_> petertodd: that should be the behaviour of the "official" client... is there a kind of counter in your patch to avoid ddos? someone could make tons of double spends and add only one satoshi every time
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1063 2013-06-14 19:28:42 <petertodd> kauzu_: the second tx has to have higher fees than the first
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1066 2013-06-14 19:30:12 <kauzu_> petertodd: yes but what if you make a third .. 4... 5th and so on and add one satoshi with every tx... than there is a tx with a higher fee every second
1067 2013-06-14 19:30:23 <petertodd> kauzu_: specifically, the rule needs to be that the second tx has higher fees than *all* tx's being replaced, but to keep the initial patch really simple I just implemented a version where the tx isn't replaced if it's been spent
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1070 2013-06-14 19:31:37 <petertodd> kauzu_: the fees have to be at least delta_size*MIN_FEE_PER_KB higher
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1122 2013-06-14 19:57:50 <jimmy2k> hello! I just saw this parser here: https://github.com/znort987/blockparser ! it claims to have an option "closure" to compute the list of addresses that provably belong to the same person. How is that possible, if every newer btc client switches the public key for an anount for every amount that is not completely spent?
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1157 2013-06-14 20:13:07 <vrs> RoboTedd_: fix your connection
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1164 2013-06-14 20:14:11 <vrs> jimmy2k: https://github.com/znort987/blockparser/blob/master/cb/closure.cpp#L125 this looks like the relevant part
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1173 2013-06-14 20:18:26 <bloke> I'm having trouble building bitcoind on Ubuntu 12.04. I can build it against Berkley DB version 5.1 (which will apparently "break binary wallet compatibility, and is not recommended") but can't get Berkley DB version 4.8 to install. Anyone have any advice?
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1177 2013-06-14 20:20:57 <bloke> My OS is ubuntu 12.04 (64 bit).
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1188 2013-06-14 20:26:07 <TheLordOfTime> bloke:  there's a PPA for the bitcoin software
1189 2013-06-14 20:26:12 <TheLordOfTime> i'd suggest using that
1190 2013-06-14 20:26:19 <TheLordOfTime> i think BlueMatt keeps it up to date
1191 2013-06-14 20:26:21 * TheLordOfTime looks
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1193 2013-06-14 20:26:40 <bloke> ok thanks Timelord
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1195 2013-06-14 20:27:08 <TheLordOfTime> bloke:  sudo add-apt-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin
1196 2013-06-14 20:27:12 <TheLordOfTime> then sudo apt-get update
1197 2013-06-14 20:27:16 <TheLordOfTime> and then sudo apt-get install bitcoind
1198 2013-06-14 20:27:24 <TheLordOfTime> should autoinstall the dependencies too
1199 2013-06-14 20:27:27 <bloke> no way!
1200 2013-06-14 20:27:31 <TheLordOfTime> BlueMatt:  oh, when yo uwake up, ping
1201 2013-06-14 20:27:40 <bloke> I have an experimental install, i will try it now
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1203 2013-06-14 20:28:16 <TheLordOfTime> bloke:  the ppa installs the stable release, if you want to experiment with sometehing else, like a newer trunk version, that's a different method and you will need to solve the FTBFS (fail to build from source) issues.
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1205 2013-06-14 20:28:26 <bloke> nah, the stable release is exactly what I want
1206 2013-06-14 20:28:53 <bloke> I have installed 64-bit OS. Have I made the right decision, or should I go back to 32-bit ?
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1208 2013-06-14 20:29:04 <bloke> I think that may be the source of my current build/dependency issues
1209 2013-06-14 20:29:15 <TheLordOfTime> bloke:  i've built bitcoind from source on a 64bit system
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1211 2013-06-14 20:29:24 <TheLordOfTime> bloke:  more likely you don't have the build dependencies
1212 2013-06-14 20:29:32 <TheLordOfTime> but idk the specifics, i say use the PPA XD
1213 2013-06-14 20:29:38 <TheLordOfTime> note you might need to back up your wallet first
1214 2013-06-14 20:29:41 <TheLordOfTime> on your existing client
1215 2013-06-14 20:29:48 <TheLordOfTime> otherwise, well, possible E: Problems
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1217 2013-06-14 20:30:00 <bloke> thats cool, no wallet or anything on the machine in question
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1221 2013-06-14 20:31:29 <TheLordOfTime> bloke:  then installing the ppa's version as i said should work fine with 12.04
1222 2013-06-14 20:31:35 <TheLordOfTime> because that's what i'm on too :p
1223 2013-06-14 20:31:47 <bloke> youre using 12.04 .. 64bit?
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1254 2013-06-14 20:45:01 <thelamest> window 22
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1256 2013-06-14 20:45:07 <BitAddict_> guys
1257 2013-06-14 20:45:12 <BitAddict_> watch out for www.btc-outlet.com
1258 2013-06-14 20:45:14 <thelamest> oops :P
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1269 2013-06-14 20:51:01 <BitAddict_> any developers want to help?
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1275 2013-06-14 20:54:05 <bloke> Thanks TheLordOfTime. The PPA worked.
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1277 2013-06-14 20:54:44 <BitAddict_> any developers want to make money?
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1281 2013-06-14 20:55:33 <TheLordOfTime> bloke:  you're welcome, enjoy!  don't forget to let the blockchain sync which takes a WHILE
1282 2013-06-14 20:56:35 <warren> Does testnet-in-a-box also disable the PoW check?
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1285 2013-06-14 20:56:56 <bloke> yeh all good. testnet, shouldnt take long
1286 2013-06-14 20:57:02 <Luke-Jr> warren: no
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1375 2013-06-14 21:50:04 <tlrobinson> can anyone tell me if this microtransaction idea a) would work, and b) has already been proposed (and if so where): https://gist.github.com/tlrobinson/5785394
1376 2013-06-14 22:01:26 <Luke-Jr> tlrobinson: a) yes, b) probably, but I'm not aware of any implementation
1377 2013-06-14 22:02:18 <PRab> tlrobinson: What is to stop Alice from becoming evil and spending the bitcoins (on the blockchain) that she signed for Bob?
1378 2013-06-14 22:02:21 <Luke-Jr> tlrobinson: I'd suggest instead of Bob claiming funds when Alice runs out, Alice creates a new 2-of-2 transaction for additional funds, and they include BOTH of them as inputs to the continually-revised transaxtion
1379 2013-06-14 22:02:33 <Luke-Jr> PRab: she would first send them to a 2-of-2 multisig
1380 2013-06-14 22:02:49 <tlrobinson> PRab: she's not allowed to until the expiration
1381 2013-06-14 22:02:54 <Luke-Jr> PRab: and Alice and Bob would both sign a "return funds to Alice" with a locktime in the future (expiration)
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1383 2013-06-14 22:05:14 <PRab> Ah, got it. First transaction (locktime) sets up essentially a credit account then the actual amount can fluctuate before the locktime runs out.
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1390 2013-06-14 22:10:21 <tlrobinson> PRab: yeah, but Alice's balance can only decrease because Bob can redeem the largest amount she's signed for, which guarantees irreversibility (as long as Bob is able to redeem it in time, so you'd want a pretty large buffer in case of downtime etc)
1391 2013-06-14 22:10:46 <tlrobinson> you could of course have bob create a transaction as well, so their "balances" can go up and down
1392 2013-06-14 22:11:00 <tlrobinson> but i imagine those would be separate transactions
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1394 2013-06-14 22:11:27 <tlrobinson> (or maybe not, I don't know enough about Script)
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1413 2013-06-14 22:28:52 <tlrobinson> oh, yeah, my idea sounds almost exactly like https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party
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