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  93 2013-06-17 02:10:29 * Luke-Jr ponders the idea of buying rebroad a new hard drive, just to get confirmation on that being the problem
  94 2013-06-17 02:11:53 * owowo thinks: "If Luke-Jr is buying one from BFL, it's definitely a problem."
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 109 2013-06-17 02:34:44 <tubby2> Hi, can anyone point me to a short and easy explanation on how blocks are solved? I know it is something like sha256(sha256(block_header)) must start with "dificulty" 0s. But I'd like to find the specs.
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 114 2013-06-17 02:38:58 <Luke-Jr> tubby2: end with
 115 2013-06-17 02:39:04 <Luke-Jr> tubby2: there are no specs beyond the source code
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 119 2013-06-17 02:42:15 <tubby2> I have found it, it is described https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm. Sorry for bothering.
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 135 2013-06-17 02:52:47 <Luke-Jr> eh, I guess to an extent it does <.<
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 288 2013-06-17 07:54:22 <warren> hmm
 289 2013-06-17 07:54:30 <warren> boost tarballs upstream are without GPG signatures
 290 2013-06-17 07:54:43 <warren> anyone download boost_1_49_0.tar.bz2 a while ago and can confirm its sha256sum ?
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 297 2013-06-17 08:03:36 <gjs278> 222b6afd7723f396f5682c20130314a10196d3999feab5ba920d2a6bf53bac92  boost_1_52_0.tar.bz2 most I can offer you warren
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 299 2013-06-17 08:04:37 <gjs278> DIST boost_1_49_0.tar.bz2 48499961 SHA256 dd748a7f5507a7e7af74f452e1c52a64e651ed1f7263fce438a06641d2180d3c
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 301 2013-06-17 08:05:07 <warren> good, matches
 302 2013-06-17 08:06:09 <warren> normally I can grab tarballs from fedora's source repo
 303 2013-06-17 08:06:15 <warren> but fedora never shipped 1.49
 304 2013-06-17 08:08:09 <warren> gjs278: zlib-1.2.7.tar.bz2 ?
 305 2013-06-17 08:08:49 <gjs278> DIST zlib-1.2.7.tar.gz 560351 SHA256 fa9c9c8638efb8cb8ef5e4dd5453e455751e1c530b1595eed466e1be9b7e26c5
 306 2013-06-17 08:09:51 <warren> where you getting this from?
 307 2013-06-17 08:09:59 <gjs278> gentoo portage
 308 2013-06-17 08:10:08 <gjs278> don't have the bz2 sum
 309 2013-06-17 08:10:14 <warren> hmm
 310 2013-06-17 08:10:41 <warren> hashes don't match when I recompress
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 312 2013-06-17 08:11:11 <warren> yeah, doesn't match
 313 2013-06-17 08:11:27 <gjs278> I don't think recompressing on two systems is going to match
 314 2013-06-17 08:12:31 <gjs278> extract the two and run diffs on the directories
 315 2013-06-17 08:13:13 <warren> URL to gentoo's zlib-1.2.7.tar.gz ?
 316 2013-06-17 08:13:19 <warren> I don't know gentoo, sorry.
 317 2013-06-17 08:14:13 <gjs278> http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/zlib-1.2.7.tar.gz
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 319 2013-06-17 08:14:33 <warren> thank you
 320 2013-06-17 08:15:48 <TD> good morning
 321 2013-06-17 08:16:57 <sipa> ohai TD
 322 2013-06-17 08:17:21 <warren> oh great.  bitcoin-0.8.x gitian wants an older version of zlib than litecoin-0.6.x.
 323 2013-06-17 08:17:23 * warren scratches head.
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 330 2013-06-17 08:26:38 <warren> gjs278: libpng-1.5.12.tar.gz available from there too?  how can I search myself?
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 332 2013-06-17 08:28:32 <warren> hmm, the bitcoin gitian version of libpng ...
 333 2013-06-17 08:28:34 <warren> "All "modern" versions of libpng through 1.5.9, 1.4.10, 1.2.48, and 1.0.58, respectively, fail to correctly handle malloc() failure for text chunks (in png_set_text_2()), which can lead to memory corruption and the possibility of execution of hostile code. This serious vulnerability has been assigned ID CVE-2011-3048 and is fixed in version 1.5.10 (and versions 1.4.11, 1.2.49, and 1.0.59, respectively, on the older branches), released 29 March 2
 334 2013-06-17 08:28:34 <warren> 012."
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 336 2013-06-17 08:28:55 <warren> I suppose it isn't a big deal since it isn't used for anything but internal images.
 337 2013-06-17 08:29:18 <gjs278> DIST libpng-1.5.12.tar.xz 706348 SHA256 badc68caf528b4bdf9aa0ab29a1cef90570d17c69bba766fd0a9d41c7d48d40d SHA512 cece22d9772d1f6e8cfe54f276c409f8e5c1dad6ee08422872fb4e510177c44046bdd00346cf6fcb5f9b0b7ca5c7d59a7f24461d5a0856b00358f37049de629a WHIRLPOOL 8ed0bb41d7de65b4100aaebc5d21441fc7619984f5bea9e00cd033c1d6863250eef47b155944a31b0d8e3f6896ca2dcf3458d4e027526d530510f5d39a000504
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 339 2013-06-17 08:29:54 <gjs278> yuo have to search through http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/media-libs/libpng/?logsort=cvs&diff_format=f and find a matching manifest
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 445 2013-06-17 10:48:55 <tubby2> I know this is not the place. Does anyone know of bibliography related on "proof of execution". I have a scenario where I have a client creating some code, sending it to a server, and pay him as long as it executes. To achieve this it would be great to have some kind of proof from the server...
 446 2013-06-17 10:50:13 agnostic98 has joined
 447 2013-06-17 10:50:16 <sydna> I'm going to preempt the next question. no, the blockchain can not be generated with "useful" work, ala folding@home.
 448 2013-06-17 10:50:54 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 450 2013-06-17 10:51:37 <TD> tubby2: yes. google for [pinnochio microsoft research]
 451 2013-06-17 10:51:38 <tubby2> No, that it not where it was going, but thanks. The thing is, I want to try and create some "servers" that execute code provided by "clients" that pay the sever with BTC
 452 2013-06-17 10:51:53 <TD> and then read the 2013 paper to see the latest results.
 453 2013-06-17 10:52:02 <TD> alternatively, google for [intel txt]
 454 2013-06-17 10:52:08 <sydna> I assumed wrong, apologies. (it gets asked an awful lot)
 455 2013-06-17 10:52:09 <tubby2> tvm TD
 456 2013-06-17 10:52:09 <TD> (to see a hardware based solution)
 457 2013-06-17 10:52:30 <TD> tubby2: are you interested in bitcoin oracles, by any chance?
 458 2013-06-17 10:52:32 <tubby2> Hardware must be avoided, if possible.
 459 2013-06-17 10:52:35 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 460 2013-06-17 10:52:35 <tubby2> YES
 461 2013-06-17 10:52:43 <tubby2> that is exactly the thing.
 462 2013-06-17 10:52:56 <TD> there is quite a lot of interest in this topic at the moment for some reason
 463 2013-06-17 10:53:53 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 464 2013-06-17 10:53:54 <tubby2> Well, we have coloured bitcoins. (I have just coded a prototype that is completly p2p :p, it can distribute definitions and trade. But major flaws exist). So the next logical step would be Oracles.
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 468 2013-06-17 10:55:45 <melvster> tubby2: sounds cool im working on something similar ... how bit are your colored coins?
 469 2013-06-17 10:55:56 <tubby2> pinocchio seems great. I guess no open solution, right?
 470 2013-06-17 10:56:15 <TD> tubby2: pinnochio is open source
 471 2013-06-17 10:56:30 <TD> tubby2: however, the size of the programs it can run in is somewhat limited. the examples show the kinds of functions it can do.
 472 2013-06-17 10:56:42 <TD> tubby2: if it's the kind of program you could conceivably write as a GPU shader, it might work.
 473 2013-06-17 10:57:21 <TD> tubby2: but for example, if you want to do I/O, then no cigar. the oracles as i originally described them had full-blown scripting languages complete with the ability to talk to remote servers and things. that currently isn't doable in a verifiable manner. however, state of the art is progressing very fast.
 474 2013-06-17 10:57:39 <TD> tubby2: by the way, did you email me about this the other day? (i am mike hearn)
 475 2013-06-17 10:57:47 <tubby2> Oh, I just assumed microsoft, my bad. I just took the BitcoinX client and replaced their server with a simple p2p network
 476 2013-06-17 10:57:51 <TD> i'm trying to find all the people working on creating an oracle and connect them together
 477 2013-06-17 10:57:52 <tubby2> Yes, it was me
 478 2013-06-17 10:57:55 <TD> cool
 479 2013-06-17 10:58:36 <tubby2> I'm just doing this as a college project. The thing is that my work is not usable at all, I couldn't solve the offer relaying issue (and gave up on it)...
 480 2013-06-17 10:58:42 <TD> what might be feasible in the near-term future is taking signed data and computing over it. you can only create proofs for pure functions. however, with a minor extension to the TLS protocol it may be possible to get signed proofs for any data served over SSL.
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 483 2013-06-17 10:59:53 <TD> and i think that would be close enough
 484 2013-06-17 11:00:04 <tubby2> Don't want to sound crazy, but how do you proof "downlodad X file" was done properly?
 485 2013-06-17 11:01:15 <tubby2> I believe that the only way to include this operations would be by trust gaining systems; which seems a bad idea.
 486 2013-06-17 11:01:27 GordonG3kko has joined
 487 2013-06-17 11:01:54 <BlueMatt> you can prove server with pubkey x provided this file
 488 2013-06-17 11:02:02 <BlueMatt> ie if you trust pki its ok
 489 2013-06-17 11:02:03 <sydna> nothing like wasting a large portion of your processing power just to ensure that people don't cheat
 490 2013-06-17 11:02:06 <TD> the server provides the data over SSL and with a TLS extension (that doesn't exist yet) you get a signature
 491 2013-06-17 11:02:10 <TD> that can be verified inside the provable function
 492 2013-06-17 11:02:11 <melvster> TD: tubby2 why do you think trust gaining systems are a bad idea?
 493 2013-06-17 11:02:43 <melvster> TD: I'm hoping to incorporate Oracles into my system ... more in the form of claims, mirrored claims, signed claims, predicates and provenance
 494 2013-06-17 11:02:50 <tubby2> melvester: I mean that if other pure functional solutions are available it is much more comfortable.
 495 2013-06-17 11:02:58 <melvster> true
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 498 2013-06-17 11:03:36 <melvster> my idea for trust is something like ELO ratings in chess ... it becomes exponentially harder to gain trust as you improve
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 500 2013-06-17 11:04:38 <melvster> i think starting with bitcoin otc is as good a place as any
 501 2013-06-17 11:05:16 <tubby2> TD: doesn't that just proof that id of the server whoe executed the code?
 502 2013-06-17 11:05:50 <TD> doesn't what just prove?
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 504 2013-06-17 11:05:50 <tubby2> Doesn't that just prove the id of the executing server?* (OMG that was bad)
 505 2013-06-17 11:06:01 <tubby2> SSL
 506 2013-06-17 11:06:27 <TD> it does today. but with a small protocol extension you could ask the server to sign an accumulated hash of all data transferred so far, allowing you to get a signed proof that a server served some byte stream.
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 508 2013-06-17 11:06:39 <TD> if you want to fetch data like "exchange rates from mt gox" the best you can do is have mt gox sign the data
 509 2013-06-17 11:07:00 <melvster> TD: you can already do this today with webkeys
 510 2013-06-17 11:07:11 <TD> webkeys?
 511 2013-06-17 11:07:45 <tubby2> Oh I get it. So someone with no trust can work on the code as long as the data source is signed?
 512 2013-06-17 11:07:54 <melvster> it's one of the specifications incubated by the w3c payments group
 513 2013-06-17 11:09:05 <TD> tubby2: yes
 514 2013-06-17 11:09:45 <TD> tubby2: pinnochio and related systems allow the inputs to be private whilst the proof of execution is still valid. so you can just ship a program to the oracle that checks the signature, computes on the data, and produces an output, but the actual input data never has to be provided.
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 516 2013-06-17 11:10:02 <TD> in the case of exchange rates it's public anyway so that doesn't really help, and i think the system runs faster if you don't need input privacy.
 517 2013-06-17 11:10:25 <TD> verifiable computation is still an open research area
 518 2013-06-17 11:10:44 <TD> however, for obvious reasons, if it were to become more viable then you could re-imagine oracles as programs that simply verify computational proofs rather than actually do the execution themselves.
 519 2013-06-17 11:11:04 <TD> then the actual execution could be done by one of the contract participants, with the oracle acting merely as a referee.
 520 2013-06-17 11:11:16 <melvster> TD: https://payswarm.com/specs/source/web-keys/
 521 2013-06-17 11:11:25 <melvster> TD: The Web Keys specification describes a simple, decentralized security infrastructure for the Web based on public key cryptography. This system enables Web applications to establish identities for agents on the Web, associate security credentials with those identities, and then use those security credentials to send and receive messages that are both encrypted and verifiable via digital signatures.
 522 2013-06-17 11:11:27 <TD> in a star-trek future in which such an oracle construct was widely used for useful things, it could potentially even be made a part of bitcoin itself! but that's far out
 523 2013-06-17 11:12:32 <TD> melvster: that looks a lot more complicated than what i had in mind. the ideal TLS extension would be entirely transparent to the server. just upgrade your openssl and now your server supports attestation to served bytes.
 524 2013-06-17 11:12:39 <TD> imho that's the best way to get adoption.
 525 2013-06-17 11:14:43 <TD> it's probably time for me to update/rewrite the oracles section of the wiki
 526 2013-06-17 11:14:44 <TD> maybe after lunch :-)
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 528 2013-06-17 11:15:40 <tubby2> TD: That'd be great. I'll go to sleep, tvm for everything.
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 536 2013-06-17 11:21:18 <ItsDom> in pooled mining, when the pool sends out work, what exactly is it that's sent out? A collection of transactions and a range of nonce's?
 537 2013-06-17 11:21:30 <sydna> not even that
 538 2013-06-17 11:21:34 <sydna> just the header of the block
 539 2013-06-17 11:21:57 <sydna> the clients in the pool never see the transactions until the block is solved and broadcast
 540 2013-06-17 11:21:59 <ItsDom> So they just send out the block header, with no nonce in it?
 541 2013-06-17 11:22:38 <sydna> depends somewhat on the implementation. I think some send a range for which the client is to search for valid proofs within
 542 2013-06-17 11:23:17 <ItsDom> okay - do you mind me picking your brains a little bit around this subject?
 543 2013-06-17 11:24:03 <sydna> my knowledge of it is fairly rudimentary really, there's people here that understand it way better
 544 2013-06-17 11:24:16 <sydna> I can do my best though
 545 2013-06-17 11:24:35 <ItsDom> okay, well I'll just ask away and see if anyone else pipes up too (I know that's what I'm supposed to do but I'd rather not bother people given the choice!)
 546 2013-06-17 11:25:47 <ItsDom> How does a pool verify a worker has done the work? I understand how it would work to prove a successful hash, but most blocks of work don't have a successful hash in. What's stopping a modified pooled mining client just saying "yeah, I've done the work, none of the things I hashed got the answer you wanted" when it didn't really?
 547 2013-06-17 11:26:06 <sydna> the clients solve for a much lower difficulty than the full block
 548 2013-06-17 11:26:26 <sydna> a "share" (in most cases) is just a solution to the block at difficulty 1
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 550 2013-06-17 11:27:47 <ItsDom> okay, thanks. How is that useful though....? if they're producing a hash difficulty 1, then it will have 1 zero on the front....which is useless....?
 551 2013-06-17 11:27:55 <sydna> the idea being that some shares might actually be valid for much higher difficulties, or even have enough leading zeros to qualify as a block at the full difficulty
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 553 2013-06-17 11:28:39 <sydna> at the current difficulty, if I solved 19,300,000 difficulty 1 shares, there's a reasonable probability that one of them will be valid as a block
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 556 2013-06-17 11:30:33 <sydna> you can see this in action on Eligius. in the statistics in the upper right, the pool has solved about 18M difficulty one shares at the moment. http://eligius.st/~gateway/
 557 2013-06-17 11:30:51 <ItsDom> Thanks - I'm learning. So how does the pool verify that someone has actually done the work...? Assume that characterset of an SHA256 string is 64chars (for arguments sake) then theres a 1/64 chance that a hash will be successful at diff 1. The pool is still going to have to verify 1/64 of all the hashes the entire pool is doing...?
 558 2013-06-17 11:31:23 <sydna> no, the pool doesn't have to do a lot of work at all
 559 2013-06-17 11:31:46 <sydna> the client has to preform a brute force to find a winning solution, many thousands of hash attempts
 560 2013-06-17 11:32:12 <ItsDom> but it's not thousands of hash attempts if it accepts difficulty 1 though....?
 561 2013-06-17 11:32:38 <sydna> the solution is submitted as the winning nonce. the pool needs to do a single sha256 operation to see if the submitted nonce really does have the leading zeros.
 562 2013-06-17 11:33:50 <sydna> uh, I might have botched that explanation a little.
 563 2013-06-17 11:33:56 <sydna> did it make any degree of sense?
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 565 2013-06-17 11:34:10 <ItsDom> yeah, that's my understanding of it, but it doesn't make sense to me
 566 2013-06-17 11:34:15 <ItsDom> well it does
 567 2013-06-17 11:34:19 <ItsDom> but it seems really easily cheatable.
 568 2013-06-17 11:34:29 <ItsDom> either that, or the pool leader has a dick load of work to do?
 569 2013-06-17 11:34:33 <sydna> not in the slightest
 570 2013-06-17 11:34:41 <ItsDom> So I understand entirely what you said.
 571 2013-06-17 11:34:46 <ItsDom> but my problem is:....
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 573 2013-06-17 11:36:01 <ItsDom> if a single character in a hash can be 1 of e.g. 64 difference characters, and each character has a random chance, then the first character has a 1/64 change of being 0, so a miner must do on average 64 hashes to complete a block at difficulty 0. So that means ever 1 in 64 hashes, the pool lead is going to have to do a hash a single hash to verify it.
 574 2013-06-17 11:36:33 <ItsDom> which means the pool operator must have a hashrate capable of doing 1/64th of the entire pool....?
 575 2013-06-17 11:36:51 <sydna> that would be true if difficulty 1 hashes were easy to compute, but they're sort of not. even a difficulty 1 share takes a fair amount of computing power to compute.
 576 2013-06-17 11:36:53 <sipa> ItsDom: difficulty 1 corresponds to approximately 32 zero bits in front
 577 2013-06-17 11:37:16 <sipa> ItsDom: and pool workers only submit block candidates which match at least difficulty 1
 578 2013-06-17 11:37:40 <ItsDom> aah, so 32 zero bits is actually 2 ^ 32 different combi's
 579 2013-06-17 11:37:57 <sipa> and pools use the number of such 'shares' submitted (which is only 1/4 billion of the total hashes done) as a distribution key for the income from real blocksa
 580 2013-06-17 11:37:57 <ItsDom> so the pool miner must do the 2 ^32th root of the entire hashrate?
 581 2013-06-17 11:38:16 <sydna> even for a difficulty 1 share, that's a good 18 minutes of work on my CPU compared to a single round of sha256 on the pool's side.
 582 2013-06-17 11:39:10 <sipa> ItsDom: just one in 4 billion
 583 2013-06-17 11:39:25 <ItsDom> Yeah, so my understanding is correct, but in my explanation, where I was assuming there were only e.g. 64 variations, it was actually 2 ^ 32 variations.
 584 2013-06-17 11:39:51 <sipa> also, some pools are using higher minimum difficulties even
 585 2013-06-17 11:40:12 <sydna> 750 or so for p2pool
 586 2013-06-17 11:40:20 <sipa> if you as a worker have like 10 GH/s, it means even at difficulty 1, you need to submit multiple shares per second
 587 2013-06-17 11:40:45 <ItsDom> okay. That's interesting.
 588 2013-06-17 11:41:03 <sipa> there's no reason for that, you could just inform the pool that you only want to submit let's say difficulty=8 or higher shares, but have them counted as 8 shares each
 589 2013-06-17 11:41:23 <ItsDom> I can't help but cringe slightly over how much work is "wasted" in mining Bitcoin. Obviously, it's this waste factor which gives the blockchain it's security, but still.
 590 2013-06-17 11:41:45 <ItsDom> But thanks for explaining that all to me. Muchly appreciated.
 591 2013-06-17 11:42:32 <sydna> with more efficient ASIC processors the overall power consumption will probably be lower.
 592 2013-06-17 11:43:05 <sydna> with a processor designed just to mine bitcoin, you can achieve astronomical hashrates with just a handful of watts wasted.
 593 2013-06-17 11:43:39 <ItsDom> True.
 594 2013-06-17 11:43:59 <sipa> sydna: disregarding hardware costs, the global energy wattage spent on mining should be equal to mining_income_per_block/600s/(bitcoin_exchange_rate*electricity_price)
 595 2013-06-17 11:44:21 <sipa> s/should be equal to/should coverge to/
 596 2013-06-17 11:45:06 <ItsDom> sipa: I don't think that's right to include bitcoins value in there.
 597 2013-06-17 11:45:37 <sydna> people wouldn't mine if the value of the coin was less than the power expended
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 599 2013-06-17 11:45:59 <ItsDom> sipa: purely because the value is influenced by so many things, and for all we know, the electricity cost may only be a tiny tiny variable in that.....
 600 2013-06-17 11:46:18 <sipa> ItsDom: maybe :)
 601 2013-06-17 11:46:27 <ItsDom> sydna: Yes they would. How many people are mining Bitcoins with CPUs right now....?
 602 2013-06-17 11:46:45 <ItsDom> sydna: you're right in the economically, they SHOULDN'T mine
 603 2013-06-17 11:46:59 <ItsDom> sydna: but that would assume we're all rational and informed....
 604 2013-06-17 11:47:06 <Scrat> where da HD 1080p wallets at
 605 2013-06-17 11:47:09 <sydna> mining with a CPU at this point is almost completely worthless
 606 2013-06-17 11:47:25 <sydna> ;;genrate 4
 607 2013-06-17 11:47:25 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 4.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 19339258.2724, is 0.000104017746565 BTC per day and 4.33407277352e-06 BTC per hour.
 608 2013-06-17 11:47:28 <ItsDom> sydna: exactly, but I can guarantee people still do it, and then the botnets that inevitably do it.
 609 2013-06-17 11:47:34 * Scrat watched sipa's speech
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 611 2013-06-17 11:48:20 <sydna> I'm sure that there are still a few straddling CPU miners, but they would be outweighed by even a single ASIC miners variance
 612 2013-06-17 11:48:21 <ItsDom> sydna: on top of that, people must have mined bitcoin before it was even possible to sell them for anything.
 613 2013-06-17 11:48:24 <sipa> sydna: ha
 614 2013-06-17 11:48:25 <sipa> Scrat: ha
 615 2013-06-17 11:49:12 <sydna> ItsDom: most certainly, I was one of them
 616 2013-06-17 11:49:55 <sydna> got bored and deleted the wallet, but that's beside the point.
 617 2013-06-17 11:49:58 <ItsDom> sydna: exactly. So you mined despite the power expended being more than the value of a bitcoin....?
 618 2013-06-17 11:50:17 <Scrat> sydna is cpu mining for entertainment purposes
 619 2013-06-17 11:50:25 <Scrat> and/or research
 620 2013-06-17 11:50:34 <sydna> I wouldn't call it mining. I downloaded the client, got a few blocks, found that nobody cared enough to sell anything for bitcoin, and left
 621 2013-06-17 11:50:46 <sydna> short attention spans and all that.
 622 2013-06-17 11:52:12 <ItsDom> sydna: true. I just don't believe or buy into the bitcoin value is related to electricity value. whilst it will be a variable, I don't think it's a major one (well it clearly isn't. Bitcoin's value went up 250x and more, yet electricity prices didn't....)
 623 2013-06-17 11:53:02 <ItsDom> But I'm sure that's probably a discussion for another room. Thank you very much for taking the time to help me grasp pooled mining - I really appreciate it:)
 624 2013-06-17 11:53:03 <Scrat> sydna: so you have a few BTC that was lost to heat converting magnetic islands on a HDD surface to different alignments
 625 2013-06-17 11:53:06 <Scrat> :'(
 626 2013-06-17 11:54:01 <sydna> the adorable bit is scrat, that I still own the disk that had a wallet with 550BTC in it. somewhere beneath the layers of magnetism, I bet the wallet is still there, hiding under a layer of newer crap
 627 2013-06-17 11:54:25 <sydna> we'll never see it, and those coins will never be spent again. still. I sleep with the platters under my pillow, in the hope that they will speak to me.
 628 2013-06-17 11:54:33 <Scrat> recovering a few privkeys doesn't sound very far fetched then
 629 2013-06-17 11:54:43 <ItsDom> sydna: it would totally be worth taking that for professional data recovery. spend up to 50k getting the data recovered and you'll still make 5k.....
 630 2013-06-17 11:55:09 <sydna> few privkeys that were erased many years ago and written over many times since, no chance in hell
 631 2013-06-17 11:55:36 <Scrat> sydna: you don't know that. there might still be 4k patches that were only written once
 632 2013-06-17 11:56:08 <sydna> I'm not all that bothered
 633 2013-06-17 11:56:32 <sydna> wish I hadn't deleted it, but hey
 634 2013-06-17 11:56:34 <Scrat> although depending on the FS they might not be sparse, so that wallet.dat might be contiguous
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 636 2013-06-17 11:57:23 <Scrat> dd the drive to a single file and then run everything you can imagine on it
 637 2013-06-17 11:57:40 <sydna> if it was just erased, sure I'd `dd` the disk and hunt for the keys by hand. but the disk has been used for so many things since.
 638 2013-06-17 11:58:11 <Scrat> I was amazed to find openbsd text strings on a dd'ed file from an installation 10 years ago
 639 2013-06-17 11:58:34 <Scrat> disk had been used for years and many OS reinstalls since (no format though)
 640 2013-06-17 11:58:36 <ItsDom> pffft, be lucky if a hard drive even lasts that long these days....
 641 2013-06-17 11:58:41 * sydna shrugs
 642 2013-06-17 11:58:49 <sydna> might try as a rainy day project
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 646 2013-06-17 11:59:56 <dugo> pywallet has an option to scan raw disks, no?!
 647 2013-06-17 12:00:41 <sydna> it does
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 649 2013-06-17 12:01:05 <sydna> maybe one day you can make a living scourging old disks for wallets.
 650 2013-06-17 12:01:31 <sydna> right now it looks like the brain wallet scouring is doing well. there's people on reddit reporting their 4 word wallets being instantly emptied
 651 2013-06-17 12:01:53 <sydna> got to be someone out there with some big ass lookup tables
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 655 2013-06-17 12:06:21 <Scrat> never underestimate offline cracking with all unspent outputs at your disposal
 656 2013-06-17 12:06:34 <Scrat> still 4 words is asking to get owned
 657 2013-06-17 12:07:52 <sydna> I doubt people using "brain" wallets (really addresses) think of that
 658 2013-06-17 12:08:13 <sydna> "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" held 88BTC.
 659 2013-06-17 12:08:23 <dugo> fueled by http://coinhunt.tk/ ?
 660 2013-06-17 12:08:49 <sydna> hah, I wasn't aware of that one
 661 2013-06-17 12:08:51 <sydna> that's cute
 662 2013-06-17 12:09:27 <sydna> not much of a hunt for 20c though
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 726 2013-06-17 13:18:06 <skiouros> hey guys
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 730 2013-06-17 13:21:10 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 737 2013-06-17 13:27:59 <TD> morning jeff
 738 2013-06-17 13:28:59 <BlueMatt> hi jgarzik
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 741 2013-06-17 13:34:14 <jgarzik> always nice to wake up to good friends, useful code changes, and 3 inches of water in the basement (well, half the basement)
 742 2013-06-17 13:35:44 <sydna> pump gave up?
 743 2013-06-17 13:35:59 <BlueMatt> ^ why having a basement in the southeast is often a bad idea
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 745 2013-06-17 13:36:55 <MC1984> really complaining about a free indoor paddling pool
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 749 2013-06-17 13:37:51 <jgarzik> No pump.  Part of the problem, I suppose.  :)  The basement is over-engineered, literally two feet thick at the base, and quite waterproof.  The door to the basement, not so such.  When a torrent of rain occurs, water comes in through the door, and sits in the nice waterproof basement without draining.
 750 2013-06-17 13:38:18 <TD> the flaw there seems to be in the door rather than the basement, i guess
 751 2013-06-17 13:38:25 <TD> given that doors are meant to stop things going through them :)
 752 2013-06-17 13:38:29 <jgarzik> Being waterproof is only valuable when the water is OUT THERE ;p
 753 2013-06-17 13:39:35 <jgarzik> The main engineering problem is that water should drain away from the house.  Otherwise problems cascade like this.  Landlord's homemade water diversion -- which includes a schoolchild's desk laid on its side -- failed.
 754 2013-06-17 13:40:14 <TD> well it is called "Atlanta"
 755 2013-06-17 13:40:22 <TD> so what did you expect? sounds pretty watery to me
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 757 2013-06-17 13:40:41 <sipa> LOL
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 759 2013-06-17 13:41:30 <kjj> yup, landscaping fail
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 785 2013-06-17 14:13:51 <kjj> ore rdymac joins parts
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 787 2013-06-17 14:14:14 <kjj> bah.  damn lag
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 791 2013-06-17 14:15:00 <rdymac> XChat sucks since last update
 792 2013-06-17 14:15:12 <petertodd> jgarzik: I like to do cave exploration in my spare time. Something I've learned is that waterproof boots are often not worth the trouble because they just mean that once water gets in it can't get out, so I usually put holes in my rubber boots.
 793 2013-06-17 14:15:47 <petertodd> jgarzik: What I'm saying, is you need to put holes in your basement, and then stock it with fish to keep the algae growth down.
 794 2013-06-17 14:16:33 <Habbie> hehehe
 795 2013-06-17 14:16:47 <sydna> or turn it into a sick hydroponic basil grow.
 796 2013-06-17 14:17:10 <petertodd> sydna: it is unfortunate that Bitcoin miners produce waste heat, rather than waste light... but maybe we just need to run them hotter.
 797 2013-06-17 14:20:40 patcon has joined
 798 2013-06-17 14:22:14 <Subo1978> hi.
 799 2013-06-17 14:22:40 <Subo1978> with the newest git Pull i have problems with bitcoin over tor
 800 2013-06-17 14:23:48 <Subo1978> receive version message: version 32200, blocks=0, us=127.0.0.1:8333, them=127.0.0.1:36937, peer=127.0.0.1:36937
 801 2013-06-17 14:23:48 <Subo1978> socket recv error 104
 802 2013-06-17 14:23:48 <Subo1978> disconnecting node 127.0.0.1:36937
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 805 2013-06-17 14:24:59 <Subo1978> reverting the pull request #2763 solves the problem
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 807 2013-06-17 14:26:42 <helo> how do you know that node doesn't need to be disconnected?
 808 2013-06-17 14:27:35 <sipa> it's a hugely ancient version you're connecting to anyway...
 809 2013-06-17 14:27:43 <Subo1978> th log is full of that.
 810 2013-06-17 14:27:55 <sipa> hmm, interesting
 811 2013-06-17 14:28:34 <Subo1978> http://pastebin.com/WNDD9qwq
 812 2013-06-17 14:28:45 <Subo1978> without that commit it runs fine.
 813 2013-06-17 14:30:57 <Subo1978> i revert the commit in net.cpp ( remove the , True) , compile and all is good.
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 816 2013-06-17 14:35:43 <jgarzik> petertodd, hah
 817 2013-06-17 14:36:09 <jgarzik> Subo1978, hrm
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 822 2013-06-17 14:42:55 <Subo1978> any idea?
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 826 2013-06-17 14:48:25 <jgarzik> Subo1978, scratching my head to see how that would impact an older version
 827 2013-06-17 14:48:51 <jgarzik> Subo1978, what OS?  some flavor of linux?
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 829 2013-06-17 14:50:12 <Subo1978> jgarzik: Ubuntu 13.04 Server x64 with all patchesm , bitcoin from git, tor 0.2.4.12
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 831 2013-06-17 14:51:23 <Subo1978> i thing the node will connecting to themselve
 832 2013-06-17 14:51:35 <Subo1978> s/thing/think
 833 2013-06-17 14:51:40 <jgarzik> shouldn't
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 835 2013-06-17 14:53:46 <jgarzik> Subo1978, 104 is connection-reset-by-peer, so something is causing that node to drop you
 836 2013-06-17 14:54:08 <sipa> so it must be that the peer doesn't accept that extra bool there?
 837 2013-06-17 14:54:18 <Subo1978> i think.
 838 2013-06-17 14:57:01 <Subo1978> or the other side returns the wrong ip and my node think he connects to themselve
 839 2013-06-17 14:57:04 <Subo1978> receive version message: version 32200, blocks=0, us=127.0.0.1:8333, them=127.0.0.1:37084, peer=127.0.0.1:37084
 840 2013-06-17 14:57:27 <sipa> seems entirely correct
 841 2013-06-17 14:57:42 <Subo1978> accepted connection 127.0.0.1:37084
 842 2013-06-17 14:57:42 <Subo1978> send version message: version 70001, blocks=242009, us=96.47.226.21:8333, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=127.0.0.1:37084
 843 2013-06-17 14:57:42 <Subo1978> receive version message: version 32200, blocks=0, us=127.0.0.1:8333, them=127.0.0.1:37084, peer=127.0.0.1:37084
 844 2013-06-17 14:57:42 <Subo1978> socket recv error 104
 845 2013-06-17 14:57:42 <Subo1978> disconnecting node 127.0.0.1:37084
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 872 2013-06-17 15:37:21 <TD> jgarzik: could i beg a review from you of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2632 ?
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 876 2013-06-17 15:42:44 <jgarzik> TD, ok, just pulled all commits up.  Question before beginning:  are any of the later commits fixes for earlier commits?
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 878 2013-06-17 15:42:55 <jgarzik> TD, or is it all properly rebased etc.?
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 881 2013-06-17 15:45:55 <TD> it should be all properly rebased with the exception of an "int -> unsigned int" fix in the last commit. but it's tiny.
 882 2013-06-17 15:46:04 <TD> the commits are all small and easy
 883 2013-06-17 15:46:12 <TD> so it should be quite easy to review
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 895 2013-06-17 15:58:30 <gavinandresen> Good morning everybody. Lindsay reminded me I haven't written a core developer update blog post in a while, what do y'all think I should talk about?
 896 2013-06-17 15:59:09 <TD> good morning
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 898 2013-06-17 15:59:21 <TD> perhaps your thoughts on the trezor/bitsafe devices?
 899 2013-06-17 15:59:24 <TD> fees?
 900 2013-06-17 15:59:33 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 902 2013-06-17 16:00:28 <TD> privacy? it doesn't have to be about recent happenings, i suppose
 903 2013-06-17 16:00:49 <gavinandresen> I'm not sure i have many thoughts on the hardware wallets, besides "yay!  Hope they work and are reliable secure!"
 904 2013-06-17 16:00:59 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, highlights of 0.8.2 and hoped-for goals for 0.9?  Like we say in Linux land, we don't provide or follow roadmaps, we just periodically talk about where we'd like to go next
 905 2013-06-17 16:01:25 <jgarzik> Post conference, things have gotten dull ;p
 906 2013-06-17 16:01:38 <gavinandresen> dull is good, probably means people are busy actually working on stuff
 907 2013-06-17 16:01:39 <jgarzik> There's a lot of merging of existing pulls, but not much exciting stuff
 908 2013-06-17 16:01:44 <TD> well, sure, but you could explain how they interact with applications and the payment protocol
 909 2013-06-17 16:01:45 <sipa> "Many refactorings, all competing with eachother and for reviewer eyes."
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 912 2013-06-17 16:02:02 <TD> i guess the "roadmap" there is not obvious (also: how they interact with deterministic wallets)
 913 2013-06-17 16:03:04 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 914 2013-06-17 16:03:40 <gavinandresen> …. ooh, I'm a "top official"  now!  http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/17/can-bitcoin-make-peace-with-washington/
 915 2013-06-17 16:03:48 <TD> for the lulz
 916 2013-06-17 16:04:18 <jgarzik> I'm learning node.js, and in the process, retargeting one of my python projects to node.js:  a command line tool, using bitcoind's raw TX API, to make various less-common transactions a bit more user friendly.  Initial target is creating multisig TXs and passing them around in partially-signed state, but am willing to add any form of interesting transaction people want (such as atomic swap transactions for colored coins, or crowdfunding transa
 917 2013-06-17 16:04:18 <jgarzik> ction building, etc.)
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 919 2013-06-17 16:04:33 <jgarzik> after that, back to bitcoind and mempool and stats collection
 920 2013-06-17 16:04:40 <sydna> sounds pretty
 921 2013-06-17 16:05:01 <jgarzik> javascript takes some? getting used to ;p   It's not a real man's language until you can do inline assembly.
 922 2013-06-17 16:05:15 <TD> asm.js ;)
 923 2013-06-17 16:05:21 <sipa> i'm worried about the increasing number of people reporting corrupted blockchains
 924 2013-06-17 16:05:39 gjj has joined
 925 2013-06-17 16:05:44 <sipa> my best guess is hardware problems, but when people say that 0.7.2 works fine after downgrading... :S
 926 2013-06-17 16:05:56 <TD> gavinandresen: plugging various cool projects that need to get done is always a good blog filler :)
 927 2013-06-17 16:06:03 <sipa> i know 0.8.x's access patterns are very different, so maybe they get more easily detected
 928 2013-06-17 16:06:05 <TD> sipa: it might "work fine" in the sense that bdb doesn't detect the corruption
 929 2013-06-17 16:06:06 <sipa> but still
 930 2013-06-17 16:06:30 <sipa> yeah, i know
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 932 2013-06-17 16:07:28 <TD> gavinandresen: alternatively, describing gitian and showing people how to take part in the reproducible build setup .... seems like a good way for people to get involved?
 933 2013-06-17 16:08:41 CaptainBlaze has joined
 934 2013-06-17 16:09:23 <BlueMatt> get someone to redo the auto-update pull with gitian support
 935 2013-06-17 16:09:37 <BlueMatt> or at least just get bitcoin doing gitian releases
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 939 2013-06-17 16:13:05 <jgarzik> michagogo, BTW, ever get around to working with bitcoin.org, the pull request for torrent update text?
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 943 2013-06-17 16:31:12 <petertodd> jgarzik: cool. Another good use would be verifying ownership proofs with merkle-sum-trees, which may be more useful immediately actually because for that usecase you don't need private keys the service doesn't already have.
 944 2013-06-17 16:33:13 <petertodd> jgarzik: re: excitment, I've got a way to do scalable decentralized mining where you can contribute however much bandwidth you want. The problem is it relies on UTXO proofs, and isn't really validating the chain... but with proof-of-UTXO posession it's not so bad.
 945 2013-06-17 16:33:32 <gfawkes> question... are the blk*.dat files still required in 0.8.2 once it has reindexed everything and created the blocks, chainstate, and database folders?
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 949 2013-06-17 16:34:08 <gfawkes> or can i delete those now and free up like 10gigs?
 950 2013-06-17 16:34:12 <petertodd> jgarzik: Basically just make use of the fact that with a recent UTXO existence proof including a tx in your block is safe, and you can work together with other miners provided you do the usual identity business - punishing fraud by invalidating shares.
 951 2013-06-17 16:35:19 <petertodd> jgarzik: Problem is, you're not actually validating anything because you are relying 100% on the previous miner to be honest. However, if a block requires proof that you posess the UTXO set - a hardfork - it's not so bad, although widespread use results in an security model rather idfferent than Bitcoin right now.
 952 2013-06-17 16:36:59 <petertodd> One way to think about this stuff, is it's my fidelity bonded ledgers thing taken to the extreme.
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 955 2013-06-17 16:42:57 <petertodd> Here's the alt-coin version: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.msg2445569#msg2445569 It relies on the ability to split up the UTXO space. In reality I think you'd use a more flexible model where you can pick whatever part you want to validate, but it does lead to strange economics like tx's that have in and outpoints touching more of the utxo space being progressively more expensive to mine, but only for small miners. It also makes for a 51%
 956 2013-06-17 16:43:50 <sipa> gfawkes: they're hardlinked usually, so deleting won't actually give you space back
 957 2013-06-17 16:43:54 <sipa> gfawkes: but you can delete them
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 974 2013-06-17 17:10:26 <pjorrit> is there an easy way to see if something is hardlinked?
 975 2013-06-17 17:10:29 <gfawkes> sipa - cool, i'm actually on winblows right now so they are actual files instead of links afaict
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 977 2013-06-17 17:10:36 <pjorrit> (just out of curiosity)
 978 2013-06-17 17:10:53 <pjorrit> windows should do hardlinks too i think
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 982 2013-06-17 17:15:25 <sipa> gfawkes: if it's NTFS, they're hardlinks
 983 2013-06-17 17:15:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: learn from my stupidity, don't have that discussion. It only ends in tears.
 984 2013-06-17 17:16:16 <gmaxwell> Nothing on windows will actually show that they're hardlinks, so it's basically impossible to convince a windows user of this.
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 986 2013-06-17 17:19:05 <Diablo-D3> er, windows has hardlinks?
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 988 2013-06-17 17:19:32 <gfawkes> well these were actually copies from a source box so they definately weren't, plus i deleted them already and it didnt have any problems :)
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 991 2013-06-17 17:20:54 <gfawkes> and yes, windows does have a hardlink concept - but since they added it late noone thinks they do, the WinSXS directory is a perfect example of how msft is using hardlinks
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 996 2013-06-17 17:29:30 <ProfMac> NTFS had hardlinks as far back as NT 3.51
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 999 2013-06-17 17:34:07 <amiller_> i have a question about how fast the satoshi client relays messages
1000 2013-06-17 17:34:09 <amiller_> or processes its queue i guesss
1001 2013-06-17 17:34:11 <amiller_> so i receive a transaction, its valid etc. Now I send an inv message to all the peers I'm connected to. I'm using pcap to watch my inv messages as they go out - how tightly clustered should they be in time?
1002 2013-06-17 17:34:14 <amiller_> milliseconds? seconds? my pcap log shows like one inv message every 0.2 seconds but i was expecting them to all be nearly instantaneous
1003 2013-06-17 17:34:17 <amiller_> now i'm trying to figure it out if there's something deliberately slowing down the message queue or maybe my computer is bogged down or maybe i don't know how to read tcpdump
1004 2013-06-17 17:34:37 <TD> it can vary wildly depending on what the remote end is doing
1005 2013-06-17 17:34:55 <TD> bitcoind is single threaded. if it's in the middle of processing a block or updating a huge wallet, it can take seconds until network traffic is processed
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1013 2013-06-17 17:44:48 <petertodd> amiller_: you mean one inv message to a given peer?
1014 2013-06-17 17:45:11 <amiller_> one inv message each to all the connected pees
1015 2013-06-17 17:45:12 <amiller_> peers
1016 2013-06-17 17:45:39 <petertodd> amiller_: ok, so like one INV message to one peer, 0.2s, another INV message to a different peer?
1017 2013-06-17 17:45:43 <amiller_> yeah exactly
1018 2013-06-17 17:45:54 <amiller_> since that's not what i was expecting i want to account for it
1019 2013-06-17 17:46:06 <petertodd> amiller_: what's your upstream bw?
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1021 2013-06-17 17:46:26 <petertodd> (and downstream consumption)
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1024 2013-06-17 17:49:07 <petertodd> interesting, ThreadMessageHandler() has a 0.1s sleep at the end... could be something silly like bitcoin managing to fill all the outgoing buffers non-optimally
1025 2013-06-17 17:49:35 <petertodd> (the networking code is in a separate thread dedicated pushing messages out incrementally and receiving them)
1026 2013-06-17 17:49:50 <amiller_> petertodd, university fatpipe, 6 mB/s down and 5mB/s up
1027 2013-06-17 17:50:36 <amiller_> that's a 0.01 sleep
1028 2013-06-17 17:50:52 <amiller_> oh no you're right
1029 2013-06-17 17:51:04 <amiller_> i missed that one, thanks.
1030 2013-06-17 17:51:19 <amiller_> well uh... yeah that would pretty much do it i think
1031 2013-06-17 17:51:25 <petertodd> Try setting it to 0.25s and see what happens.
1032 2013-06-17 17:51:31 <petertodd> Er, 0.025s
1033 2013-06-17 17:52:47 <petertodd> Also experiment with lower maxconnections values, like, say 8 or something.
1034 2013-06-17 17:53:34 <petertodd> I'm almost certain that without per-connection prioritizing our high default maxconnections is slowing propagation down a lot; optimal in a flood-fill network is to go for depth along your fastest peers.
1035 2013-06-17 17:54:26 <amiller_> that's interesting
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1037 2013-06-17 17:55:16 <petertodd> amiller_: Basically if you go for depth you get the exponential growth faster.
1038 2013-06-17 17:55:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: thats all more interesting if you first establish why fast transaction propagation is interesting. :P
1039 2013-06-17 17:55:48 <amiller_> chillcoin
1040 2013-06-17 17:55:49 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1041 2013-06-17 17:56:00 <amiller_> the check's in the mail.
1042 2013-06-17 17:56:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, I am getting paid to do an audit of litecoin :p now I just need feathercoin to ante up...
1043 2013-06-17 17:56:39 <petertodd> amiller_: victorian steampunk telegraph coin
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1065 2013-06-17 18:19:23 <enigmuriatic1> has anyone here managed to get subvertx running? the installation instructions don't work
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1089 2013-06-17 18:45:20 <flound1129> what's the preferred method of getting https on the rpc port?
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1091 2013-06-17 18:46:06 <kjj> -rpcssl
1092 2013-06-17 18:46:06 <sipa> stun
1093 2013-06-17 18:46:52 <flound1129> thx
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1095 2013-06-17 18:49:02 <kjj> is -rpcssl not good?  I used to use sslwrap back in the dark old days before everything integrated native SSL/STARTTLS support
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1099 2013-06-17 18:53:28 <gmaxwell> Exposing bitcoin's RPC to a untrusted network is inadvisable.
1100 2013-06-17 18:54:54 <gmaxwell> If someone showed up today and told me that there was some horrible vulnerablity in the RPC SSL support— or even just that its crashed ever time you used it for the past two releases— I would be completely unsurprised.
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1104 2013-06-17 18:56:33 <kjj> agreed.  but I don't see a tunnel as changing that (much).
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1106 2013-06-17 18:57:25 <sipa> do one thing and do it well
1107 2013-06-17 18:57:41 <sipa> i have no idea how tested our rpc ssl code is
1108 2013-06-17 18:58:22 <kjj> I glanced at it once, and if I recall, it doesn't do much more than the bare minimum needed to hand off to openssl
1109 2013-06-17 18:58:50 <sipa> i wish i could say i knew that was enough to be safe :)
1110 2013-06-17 18:59:13 <gmaxwell> kjj: It's pretty easy to subtly misuse openssl. :)
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1112 2013-06-17 18:59:19 <kjj> heh.
1113 2013-06-17 18:59:55 <gmaxwell> Using a tunnel program escapes running "under-tested, potentially under-reviwed" code paths somewhat.
1114 2013-06-17 19:00:05 <gmaxwell> also provides process seperation between SSL and the rest of bitcoind.
1115 2013-06-17 19:00:26 <kjj> yeah, process seperation is about the only real advantage I see.
1116 2013-06-17 19:01:49 <gmaxwell> I mean there is a bunch of code there— even though its "minimum handoff" which is basically untested prior to release as far as I know. I don't test it, and I've not seen evidence of other people testing it.  The only times I ever see evidence of people using the SSL stuff is when they've blindly aped configuration files off the internet and got SSL turned on without intending it. :P
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1126 2013-06-17 19:15:00 <Subo1978> sipa: did Yo
1127 2013-06-17 19:15:17 <Subo1978> sipa: did You find a solutio n for the tor problem
1128 2013-06-17 19:15:25 <sipa> Subo1978: i haven't had time to look at it
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1130 2013-06-17 19:15:41 <Subo1978> sipa:  ok. no problem
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1170 2013-06-17 19:28:56 <enigmuriatic1> does anyone here have experience with btcdb?
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1206 2013-06-17 20:14:59 <Luke-Jr> are we seriously having another US conference in July⁈
1207 2013-06-17 20:16:05 <SteveDekorte> conference inflation
1208 2013-06-17 20:16:34 <petertodd> Aren't we supposed to halve the number of conferences every 4 years?
1209 2013-06-17 20:17:18 froopy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1210 2013-06-17 20:17:18 <Ry4an> :)
1211 2013-06-17 20:17:36 <Luke-Jr> just 1 day, I think I'll sit it out
1212 2013-06-17 20:18:10 <gwillen> SteveDekorte, seriously
1213 2013-06-17 20:18:34 <Luke-Jr> at least I'm not the only one who thinks that's going over the top :P
1214 2013-06-17 20:19:19 cornfeedhobo has joined
1215 2013-06-17 20:19:23 <kjj> I think there should be a public conference once a year, and a technical conference once a year.  the tech conference should be in Minnesota.  :)
1216 2013-06-17 20:19:32 realz has quit (Quit: realz)
1217 2013-06-17 20:19:43 <Ry4an> kjj: I could get behind MN as a venue.
1218 2013-06-17 20:20:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: who organizes?
1219 2013-06-17 20:20:22 <gmaxwell> Alaska in December. :P
1220 2013-06-17 20:20:43 <cornfeedhobo> excuse me, i dont want to bug but i can not find an answer on google. is guessing a wllet file possible? if so, what is the potential for this?
1221 2013-06-17 20:20:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: BitInstant maybe? not sure
1222 2013-06-17 20:21:00 <Luke-Jr> http://www.mediabistro.com/insidebitcoins/
1223 2013-06-17 20:21:14 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: "guessing" a wallet file?
1224 2013-06-17 20:21:16 <kjj> possible, yes.  actually going to happen in this universe?  no.
1225 2013-06-17 20:21:33 <Luke-Jr> Sponsors and Exhibitors: Coin Market, AlphaPoint
1226 2013-06-17 20:21:36 <Luke-Jr> (who⁇)
1227 2013-06-17 20:22:23 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: well hashing is verifying tx, why couldnt that same power be used to guess all possible wallet file combinations
1228 2013-06-17 20:22:40 sacrelege has joined
1229 2013-06-17 20:22:40 <Luke-Jr> both of those "companies" seem to be scamcoin-oriented
1230 2013-06-17 20:22:43 <Luke-Jr> not sure I can take this seriously
1231 2013-06-17 20:22:44 <cornfeedhobo> (i have a limited understanding, please dont hate me for that)
1232 2013-06-17 20:23:29 realzies is now known as realazthat
1233 2013-06-17 20:23:41 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: hashing has nothing to do with verifying transactions
1234 2013-06-17 20:23:59 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: hash power is used to mine blocks, making them pass the proof-of-work validation
1235 2013-06-17 20:24:12 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: and by wallet file combinations, you mean private keys?
1236 2013-06-17 20:24:16 tubby2 has joined
1237 2013-06-17 20:24:18 <cornfeedhobo> correct
1238 2013-06-17 20:25:23 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: yes, some hardware can be used to attempt private key cracking
1239 2013-06-17 20:25:46 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: but if constructed properly, it would take more energy than boiling all earth's oceans to find one
1240 2013-06-17 20:25:59 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: i figured, but what is the likely hood. essentially i am talking about creating private key ranbow tables
1241 2013-06-17 20:26:06 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: okay
1242 2013-06-17 20:26:30 handle has joined
1243 2013-06-17 20:26:37 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: is there an exact figure of possible combinations? (1024^1024) ?
1244 2013-06-17 20:26:50 <sipa> 2^160 addresses
1245 2013-06-17 20:27:12 <sipa> and rainbow tables don't help speed up anything
1246 2013-06-17 20:27:17 michagogo_ has joined
1247 2013-06-17 20:27:26 <sipa> they're just a compact representation of a brute force search that has already happened
1248 2013-06-17 20:27:33 <cornfeedhobo> yup
1249 2013-06-17 20:27:38 <sipa> it's impossible with current technology to perform such a brute force attack
1250 2013-06-17 20:27:51 <cornfeedhobo> the question is not about today
1251 2013-06-17 20:27:53 <kjj> anyone have the quote handy?
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1256 2013-06-17 20:28:07 <Ry4an> cornfeedhobo: this _has_ to be in the FAQ.  have you looked?
1257 2013-06-17 20:28:30 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: seriously, if this was a problem, all human crypto would be in danger
1258 2013-06-17 20:28:41 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1259 2013-06-17 20:28:42 <cornfeedhobo> Ry4an: i did but i will have another pass thru. all it really says is, it cant be done... but that doesnt really suffice for a nerd like me
1260 2013-06-17 20:29:19 <petertodd> "For "brute-force attacks against 256-bit keys will be infeasible until computers are built from something other than matter and occupy something other than space" - bruce schinier
1261 2013-06-17 20:29:35 <kjj> cornfedhobo: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/09/the_doghouse_cr.html
1262 2013-06-17 20:29:38 <cornfeedhobo> either way, i dont want to divulge into, "it cant be done" i just am curious about the #s
1263 2013-06-17 20:29:41 <gavinandresen> or http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3679/has-someone-compared-the-cost-of-mining-vs-that-of-brute-forcing-addresses
1264 2013-06-17 20:29:53 <cornfeedhobo> gavinandresen: thank you :)
1265 2013-06-17 20:29:55 <Ry4an> cornfeedhobo: http://i.imgur.com/fYFBsqp.jpg
1266 2013-06-17 20:30:14 <cornfeedhobo> Ry4an: lol
1267 2013-06-17 20:30:41 <sipa> gavinandresen: thanks, i was looking for that one :)
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1269 2013-06-17 20:30:51 <tubby2> cornfeedhobo: just give 15 more years and modified Shor breaks in. I belive that is the closest tech to breaking ECC. I don't have proof with me (can look for it). But basically NP-Hard ECC becomes poly cost.
1270 2013-06-17 20:31:12 <cornfeedhobo> hmm interesting
1271 2013-06-17 20:31:29 <cornfeedhobo> see yeah i am not thinking about today, or even ten years from now.... longer
1272 2013-06-17 20:31:47 <cornfeedhobo> but at that point things would probably be re-written at which point i am being silly
1273 2013-06-17 20:31:56 <petertodd> tubby2: I actually work with quantum systems at my day job, and the physics guys there are fairly convinced that what quantum computers do is trade off NP-hard running time for NP-hard engineering problems actually building one.
1274 2013-06-17 20:32:21 <cornfeedhobo> hahaha
1275 2013-06-17 20:32:46 <kjj> petertodd: that's pretty much what I hear too
1276 2013-06-17 20:33:14 <kjj> shit, that reminds me, I forgot to stop by caltech for a beer when I was in CA
1277 2013-06-17 20:33:17 <petertodd> I'm quite serious too: the difficulty of building a n-qubit system that exhibits coherence seems to scale exponentially with n
1278 2013-06-17 20:33:34 handle has quit (Quit: all I want to say is esutiyortyiuoeruiyvoniuvoynuiy)
1279 2013-06-17 20:33:59 <michagogo> [18:48:57] <@jgarzik> michagogo, BTW, ever get around to working with bitcoin.org, the pull request for torrent update text?
1280 2013-06-17 20:33:59 <michagogo> I actually forgot about that. :-/
1281 2013-06-17 20:35:05 <tubby2> petertodd: I didn't know that, tvm. I just knew about D-Wave and people calling it a scam (not that I have the money to buy and test one xD)
1282 2013-06-17 20:35:38 <petertodd> tubby2: D-Wave isn't a scam, at least in the way the company I work for isn't a scam, they're just trying to solve an exceptionally hard problem with a high risk of failure
1283 2013-06-17 20:35:41 <kjj> there were doubts early on, but it sounds like the community has pretty much accepted d-wave as actual quantum devices
1284 2013-06-17 20:36:01 <kjj> just not general purpose ones
1285 2013-06-17 20:36:05 <petertodd> tubby2: and, solve it in a fast and high risk way too
1286 2013-06-17 20:36:05 <cornfeedhobo> so maybe a better question would have been, what is the upper limit of possible accounts? /is/ there a limit?
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1291 2013-06-17 20:36:59 <kjj> cornfedhobo:  2^256 under current rules, or 2^160.  depends on your point of view
1292 2013-06-17 20:37:02 <gmaxwell> cornfeedhobo: accounts? limit in hwat?
1293 2013-06-17 20:37:08 <gmaxwell> kjj: rules? no.
1294 2013-06-17 20:37:26 <cornfeedhobo> gmaxwell: yeah scratch that. i realized the stupidity afterwards
1295 2013-06-17 20:38:01 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1296 2013-06-17 20:38:23 <gmaxwell> kjj: nothing in the bitcoin protocol keeps you from having an "account" where you have to provide 200 SHA256 preimages and a dozen ecdsa signatures to redeem. :P
1297 2013-06-17 20:38:30 <cornfeedhobo> i feel satisfied in the answer now. thats guys for humoring me :)
1298 2013-06-17 20:39:17 handle has joined
1299 2013-06-17 20:39:25 <kjj> heh, good point.  I was thinking privkeys.  that's the closest mapping to "accounts" for me
1300 2013-06-17 20:39:34 <cornfeedhobo> s/thats/thanks/
1301 2013-06-17 20:39:46 <gmaxwell> kjj: poor mapping. :P
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1303 2013-06-17 20:39:56 <tubby2> Oh, so D-Wave is not general purpose. I guess that solves the matter for me. I  went to a presentation from a guy from CSIC (Spanish National Research Council) where he claimed they believed D-Wave to be a scam (my bad for not checking on it).
1304 2013-06-17 20:39:57 <petertodd> there's only 2^166 or so atoms in the earth, so we'd use good fractice of the earth at one atom per address before we even get a 50/50 chance of a 256bit address collision, although the weaker 160-bit addresses would be in trouble sooner, like once we turn a few mountain ranges into bitcoin wallets...
1305 2013-06-17 20:40:01 <kjj> poor search key
1306 2013-06-17 20:40:11 <gmaxwell> kjj: should be thinking about distinct public keys, ... and by public key I mean "scriptpubkey"
1307 2013-06-17 20:41:54 <sipa> petertodd: so you suggest using send-to-256-bit-hash-of-{pubkey,script} ?
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1309 2013-06-17 20:43:16 <Luke-Jr> 52G /home/luke-jr/.bitcoin/
1310 2013-06-17 20:43:18 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1311 2013-06-17 20:43:26 <petertodd> sipa: Yes! But I work in the geology business, and we have big plans for Bitcoin, and the Himalayas...
1312 2013-06-17 20:43:32 <Luke-Jr> lol -rw-------  1 luke-jr luke-jr   39G Jun 17 20:13 debug.log
1313 2013-06-17 20:43:57 <handle> nicely done
1314 2013-06-17 20:44:08 <kjj> one could argue that once you collect 2^160 privkeys, you have a pretty good chance of being able to spend most of the stuff you see in the blockchain today
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1316 2013-06-17 20:44:30 <handle> kjj: you don't realize how big of a number 2^160 is
1317 2013-06-17 20:44:35 [BNC]dansmith is now known as dansmith_btc
1318 2013-06-17 20:44:45 <kjj> oh, I fully understand how big it is.
1319 2013-06-17 20:44:47 <handle> even 2^80 is mind bogglingly large
1320 2013-06-17 20:45:20 <handle> you say "once you collect 2^160 privkeys" like it's possible before the heat death of the universe
1321 2013-06-17 20:45:33 <sipa> handle: you know Bitcoin has performed over 2^70 hashes in its history already? :)
1322 2013-06-17 20:45:46 <handle> sipa: I did not
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1325 2013-06-17 20:46:16 <sipa> we do around 2^47 per second
1326 2013-06-17 20:46:21 <Luke-Jr> all your privkeys are belong to me?
1327 2013-06-17 20:46:21 <handle> I still highly doubt 2^160 is possible before the heat death of the universe though
1328 2013-06-17 20:46:32 <handle> or at least, for millions of years
1329 2013-06-17 20:46:52 <sipa> you have no chance to retain make your coins
1330 2013-06-17 20:46:53 <kjj> handle: I never said that collecting them would be easy.  :)  but because of the address hashing used, doing so would enable you to steal most of the UTXOs
1331 2013-06-17 20:47:19 <Luke-Jr> I wish I knew a midstate+datatail that had nonce==0 for a valid share
1332 2013-06-17 20:47:41 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1333 2013-06-17 20:47:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well after we're at height 4 billion it will be likely for there to be a valid block with nonce=0. ;P
1334 2013-06-17 20:48:16 <petertodd> sipa: I seriously worry we're going to find out one day that a popular ASIC design fails due to bad power engineering or something given enough bits set to 0... It's not an unheard of problem.
1335 2013-06-17 20:48:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Eligius has enough shares it's 60% likely it had one :/
1336 2013-06-17 20:48:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: but grepping through the db archives is just too much trouble :x
1337 2013-06-17 20:48:51 <handle> you keep a log of every share?
1338 2013-06-17 20:48:55 <Luke-Jr> yes
1339 2013-06-17 20:49:02 <handle> well, of every share's nonce
1340 2013-06-17 20:49:03 <sipa> 22:19:25 < Luke-Jr> lol -rw-------  1 luke-jr luke-jr   39G Jun 17 20:13 debug.log
1341 2013-06-17 20:49:06 <sipa> ^ understood!
1342 2013-06-17 20:49:06 <handle> oh
1343 2013-06-17 20:49:08 <handle> I see
1344 2013-06-17 20:49:15 <handle> haha
1345 2013-06-17 20:49:35 <Luke-Jr> handle: it's quite handy to have data like this actually
1346 2013-06-17 20:49:39 <petertodd> sipa: fortunately it'll crop up gradually due to the inherent probability distribution, probably
1347 2013-06-17 20:49:52 <Luke-Jr> even the nonces found by my Little Single have been sufficient to do some neat tricks
1348 2013-06-17 20:50:04 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ?
1349 2013-06-17 20:50:12 whiterabbit has joined
1350 2013-06-17 20:50:33 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: for example, BFGMiner is now autodetecting how many cores are in an Icarus-design device, by sending a work that returns a different nonce depending on how many
1351 2013-06-17 20:50:41 caedes has joined
1352 2013-06-17 20:50:46 <Luke-Jr> eg, nonce=0* for single-core, nonce=8* for dual-core, etc
1353 2013-06-17 20:51:20 <Luke-Jr> (knowing core count is necessary to calculate the hashrate it's mining at, and keep it busy)
1354 2013-06-17 20:52:23 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Oh, so they're deterministic then 'eh? Which means you can check for block-withholding in a crummy way...
1355 2013-06-17 20:52:34 <Luke-Jr> ☺
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1357 2013-06-17 20:52:54 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: it's not that simple, even if you assume everyone has Icarus-protocol device
1358 2013-06-17 20:53:22 handle_ has joined
1359 2013-06-17 20:53:31 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Yeah, clients put some randomness of their own in don't they?
1360 2013-06-17 20:53:50 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: yep
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1363 2013-06-17 20:54:04 <Luke-Jr> with stratum, they also have a prenegotiated connection nonce too
1364 2013-06-17 20:54:07 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: It'd have to be done with a big database of winning shares as a specific challenge response, which negates auditing...
1365 2013-06-17 20:54:52 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: could still be useful though if miners are willing to accept getting proof of what they worked on after the fact
1366 2013-06-17 20:54:56 cypher has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1367 2013-06-17 20:55:00 <gmaxwell> At least the stratum issue isn't an issue if you're talking about a test being performed by the mining software itself.
1368 2013-06-17 20:55:19 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1369 2013-06-17 20:55:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, like to detect block withholding in the hardware itself?
1370 2013-06-17 20:55:41 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1371 2013-06-17 20:55:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: FWiW, my Little Single did eventually find at least one block
1372 2013-06-17 20:56:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: or forget block withholding .. try "just totally broken"
1373 2013-06-17 20:56:30 <petertodd> What's neat, is the blockchain itself provides all the test data required to do that test, + a set of orphans which gives you data that not everyone has.
1374 2013-06-17 20:56:41 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Mine too actually
1375 2013-06-17 20:56:45 cheesecake299 has joined
1376 2013-06-17 20:56:54 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Maybe more - my logs aren't complete.
1377 2013-06-17 20:56:58 troj has joined
1378 2013-06-17 20:57:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that too
1379 2013-06-17 20:57:04 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: you have a Little Single? :P
1380 2013-06-17 20:57:18 <cheesecake299> hey, Please can someone explain how to create a keypair?
1381 2013-06-17 20:57:22 handle_ has quit (Client Quit)
1382 2013-06-17 20:57:25 <cheesecake299> like the pairs in https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/3966071/raw/1f6cfa4208bc82ee5039876b4f065a705ce64df7/TwoOfThree.sh
1383 2013-06-17 20:57:34 <lianj> is anybody from BFL here on freenode?
1384 2013-06-17 20:57:35 handle has joined
1385 2013-06-17 20:57:38 handle has quit (Client Quit)
1386 2013-06-17 20:57:42 <Luke-Jr> lianj: #butterflylabs
1387 2013-06-17 20:57:43 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh, no I meant my FPGA one...
1388 2013-06-17 20:58:03 <Luke-Jr> lianj: just customer support tho
1389 2013-06-17 20:58:15 handle_ has joined
1390 2013-06-17 20:58:19 <Luke-Jr> Josh/Inaba shows up in #eligius occasionally
1391 2013-06-17 20:58:19 <lianj> Luke-Jr: oh a channel… makes sense. thanks
1392 2013-06-17 20:58:28 cypher has joined
1393 2013-06-17 20:59:00 <gavinandresen> cheesecake299: bitcoind getnewaddress  … then:   bitcoind validateaddress <address>
1394 2013-06-17 20:59:33 <gavinandresen> (validateaddress will give you the full public key).  Then when you need the private key, bitcoind exportprivkey
1395 2013-06-17 20:59:56 <gavinandresen> Or there is plenty of code available that generates public/private keypairs without bitcoind
1396 2013-06-17 21:00:07 <cheesecake299> thanks gavinandresen :)
1397 2013-06-17 21:00:11 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1398 2013-06-17 21:01:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I was meaning to ask you: what's the best known proof-of-data-posession scheme that can be verified by SPV nodes, at least at some level?
1399 2013-06-17 21:01:35 handle_ has quit (Client Quit)
1400 2013-06-17 21:01:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: AKA queries against the UTXO set/coin of the moonmen
1401 2013-06-17 21:02:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I mean you can always wrap the database query with an extra hash and then transfer that intermediate state with the block, allowing for fast 'lite' validation of it.
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1405 2013-06-17 21:04:23 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, although it seems to me that any validation that the query was actually done honestly requires knowledge of the UTXO set, or failing that, a reduced strength version where you commit in advance to what portions of the querie(s) you will reveal as proof you were honest
1406 2013-06-17 21:05:34 <gmaxwell> not quite.
1407 2013-06-17 21:05:57 <gmaxwell> E.g. You can transmit the fragments of the utxo to prove the connectedness.. so no storage, but more bandwidth.
1408 2013-06-17 21:06:02 <gmaxwell> You could also depend on fraud proofs.
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1411 2013-06-17 21:06:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, so basically I'm proving that my query was connected to the UTXO proof in block n-1 (potentially multiple ones)
1412 2013-06-17 21:07:01 pjorrit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1413 2013-06-17 21:07:07 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ibm has invented a language that is basically erlang + data partition aware + instead of erlang syntax its a bastardization of java and python
1414 2013-06-17 21:08:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm thinking you can probably pull off a alt-coin based on splitting up the UTXO space and distributing validation across subsets of that space, but it's really important that nodes prove they actually have the UTXO set they claim they are validating
1415 2013-06-17 21:09:23 <Diablo-D3> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X10_%28programming_language%29
1416 2013-06-17 21:09:25 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ^
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1422 2013-06-17 21:10:28 * Luke-Jr is beginning to wonder whether we really found the cause of the hardfork from before :/
1423 2013-06-17 21:10:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Proving my query is connected to a previous UTXO top-level hash seems like it would have complex failure modes with attacks where you commit to invalid UTXO sets that are missing sections - probably need fraud proofs there and the security model is for sure weaker than Bitcoin's full consensus.
1424 2013-06-17 21:11:55 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: why?
1425 2013-06-17 21:12:07 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: May15 hardfork still hasn't affected 0.7.2
1426 2013-06-17 21:12:22 <Luke-Jr> and I was unable to reproduce the problem in my testing
1427 2013-06-17 21:12:36 <Luke-Jr> IIRC
1428 2013-06-17 21:12:56 gst has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1430 2013-06-17 21:13:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: have we had many complex blocks yet though? avg blocksize has been relatively small lately
1431 2013-06-17 21:13:16 Subo1978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1432 2013-06-17 21:13:38 <kjj> my pre-0.4 node is still running strong
1433 2013-06-17 21:14:35 handle_ has joined
1434 2013-06-17 21:14:39 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I am uncertain
1435 2013-06-17 21:15:03 gst has joined
1436 2013-06-17 21:15:08 <Luke-Jr> I'm just beginning to wonder, not suspecting yet :P
1437 2013-06-17 21:15:35 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: did we figure out if having the tx's in the mempool when the fork block is received matters?
1438 2013-06-17 21:16:36 <Luke-Jr> I don't recall any reason to think it would
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1440 2013-06-17 21:17:44 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: easy enough then to give it a go on eligius with a whole bunch of non-std txs
1441 2013-06-17 21:17:46 wrabbit has joined
1442 2013-06-17 21:18:21 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: getting stale blocks is not what I consider a good idea :P
1443 2013-06-17 21:18:45 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1444 2013-06-17 21:18:48 <Luke-Jr> if we *didn't* fix the hardfork, triggering it again is probably a bad idea all around
1445 2013-06-17 21:18:51 santoscork has joined
1446 2013-06-17 21:19:12 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heh, just set your CreateNewBlock to a suitable fee-per-kb based on orphan risk :P
1447 2013-06-17 21:19:25 NimeshNeema has joined
1448 2013-06-17 21:19:33 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: + meta-orphan risk...
1449 2013-06-17 21:19:34 santoscork has quit (Client Quit)
1450 2013-06-17 21:19:53 santoscork has joined
1451 2013-06-17 21:20:05 * Luke-Jr ponders adding a txout hashtable to allow filtering out address reuse <.<
1452 2013-06-17 21:21:03 poggy has joined
1453 2013-06-17 21:21:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: My mempool rewrite can put every bit of priority calculation into a single place - you'd just make address reuse lead to a low priority.
1454 2013-06-17 21:21:31 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1456 2013-06-17 21:21:34 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I still need some way to detect address reuse ;)
1457 2013-06-17 21:21:38 intx has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1458 2013-06-17 21:22:31 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Sure, but as you say, txout hashtable or bloom filter reset periodically.
1459 2013-06-17 21:22:38 kanyl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1460 2013-06-17 21:23:05 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: rebuilding a bloom filter requires rescanning the entire blockchain, and gets the same result..
1461 2013-06-17 21:23:21 <Luke-Jr> not sure why it'd be rebuilt in that case
1462 2013-06-17 21:23:46 <Luke-Jr> false positives would be a problem
1463 2013-06-17 21:23:48 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I was thinking something more focused to, say, the last n blocks, although in that case the hash table is probably simpliest.
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1498 2013-06-17 21:45:57 <BlueMatt> wooo bitcoinj 0.9
1499 2013-06-17 21:46:00 <BlueMatt> congrats TD[gone]
1500 2013-06-17 21:46:18 coeus_ has joined
1501 2013-06-17 21:46:40 handle is now known as handle_
1502 2013-06-17 21:46:42 <Luke-Jr> does it do listening on p2p yet? :P
1503 2013-06-17 21:46:56 <BlueMatt> until it even tries to be a full node, no
1504 2013-06-17 21:47:20 <BlueMatt> (it can do full verification, but thats it...)
1505 2013-06-17 21:48:05 michagogo_ has joined
1506 2013-06-17 21:48:26 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: difference?
1507 2013-06-17 21:48:49 <sipa> local validation vs exposing that functionality to the network, i guess
1508 2013-06-17 21:48:52 <BlueMatt> a) serving blocks, b) memory pool
1509 2013-06-17 21:48:53 gfawkes has joined
1510 2013-06-17 21:49:00 handle_ is now known as handle
1511 2013-06-17 21:49:05 <BlueMatt> s/serving blocks/serving anything/
1512 2013-06-17 21:49:26 i2pRelay has joined
1513 2013-06-17 21:50:45 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: that's what service bits are for!
1514 2013-06-17 21:50:53 michagogo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1515 2013-06-17 21:51:24 <BlueMatt> right now, handling of such things are quite broke....
1516 2013-06-17 21:51:25 testnode9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1519 2013-06-17 21:52:30 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ?
1520 2013-06-17 21:52:35 <Luke-Jr> service bits = 0 should work
1521 2013-06-17 21:52:39 <BlueMatt> if we enabled listening on android clients everywhere, what would that actually provide?
1522 2013-06-17 21:52:46 michagogo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1523 2013-06-17 21:52:58 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: the ability for statistics on versions in use
1524 2013-06-17 21:53:11 <BlueMatt> their connections are faaar too short lived
1525 2013-06-17 21:53:16 <BlueMatt> and that data exists anyway
1526 2013-06-17 21:53:32 <BlueMatt> (android market provides it)
1527 2013-06-17 21:53:52 <Luke-Jr> bitcoinj is Android only now?
1528 2013-06-17 21:54:10 <BlueMatt> no, but its like 99.9% android wallet/multibit
1529 2013-06-17 21:54:21 <BlueMatt> both of which are similar in fundamental network behavior
1530 2013-06-17 21:54:59 <Luke-Jr> and nobody but me runs their Android/Multibit 24/7 at home?
1531 2013-06-17 21:55:01 <BlueMatt> s/99.9%/95%/
1532 2013-06-17 21:55:19 <BlueMatt> android wallet doesnt even have a setting for that...
1533 2013-06-17 21:55:54 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: … well it works for me
1534 2013-06-17 21:56:16 <BlueMatt> afaik it disconnects regularly unless you are always on wifi and/or always charging
1535 2013-06-17 21:56:25 <Luke-Jr> I am, usually.
1536 2013-06-17 21:56:33 nomailing has joined
1537 2013-06-17 21:56:34 <Luke-Jr> also, it disconnecting is irrelevant if it's listening
1538 2013-06-17 21:56:36 <BlueMatt> well, ok, not everyone is
1539 2013-06-17 21:56:36 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1540 2013-06-17 21:56:43 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1541 2013-06-17 21:56:48 <BlueMatt> finally, listening on a phone is NEVER OK
1542 2013-06-17 21:56:52 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I'd say multibit users have always-on internet
1543 2013-06-17 21:57:00 <BlueMatt> (from a battery life/data cost perspective)
1544 2013-06-17 21:57:08 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: who said anything about a phone?
1545 2013-06-17 21:57:08 <BlueMatt> yea, but client not open that much
1546 2013-06-17 21:57:28 <BlueMatt> well, ok tablets with 3g/4g too
1547 2013-06-17 21:57:34 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: bitcoin-seeder seems to be fine with not-always-on clients anyhow
1548 2013-06-17 21:57:39 <Luke-Jr> my Android is wifi only :P
1549 2013-06-17 21:58:00 <BlueMatt> anyway, it provides nothing for the network that cant be gotten other ways
1550 2013-06-17 21:58:16 agnostic98 has joined
1551 2013-06-17 21:58:28 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: if you trust Google
1552 2013-06-17 21:58:31 <Luke-Jr> and ignore Multibit
1553 2013-06-17 21:58:43 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin-seeder stats don't depend on trusting anyone ;)
1554 2013-06-17 21:58:55 <BlueMatt> android wallet/multibit can gladly ping $RANDOM_SERVER
1555 2013-06-17 21:59:17 cornfeedhobo has left ("When I leave, come together like butt cheeks.")
1556 2013-06-17 21:59:26 <Luke-Jr> not the same thing
1557 2013-06-17 21:59:35 <BlueMatt> you get the same data
1558 2013-06-17 21:59:42 <Luke-Jr> it just moves the trust issue
1559 2013-06-17 21:59:45 <sipa> i don't see why we should be even gathering such statistics
1560 2013-06-17 21:59:51 <sipa> except when voluntarily given
1561 2013-06-17 21:59:56 <BlueMatt> that too
1562 2013-06-17 22:00:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: clients that listen have an option to disable ti
1563 2013-06-17 22:00:50 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
1564 2013-06-17 22:01:36 * Luke-Jr wonders why Snoopy 0.1 has 0x67ff service bits
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1583 2013-06-17 22:15:33 <gfawkes> arbitary vote question... whats the best distro of linux?
1584 2013-06-17 22:16:01 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1585 2013-06-17 22:16:17 <Luke-Jr> there is no best. every OS sucks. the question is what area you can personally tolerate sucking
1586 2013-06-17 22:16:51 <Luke-Jr> ☺
1587 2013-06-17 22:16:55 <gfawkes> lol
1588 2013-06-17 22:17:06 <Luke-Jr> (that being said, I use Gentoo and Debian based on the circumstance)
1589 2013-06-17 22:17:17 <gfawkes> BeOS was teh bestest.. shame it got killed off by the 800lb gorillas
1590 2013-06-17 22:17:34 <Luke-Jr> isn't BeOS still alive somewhere in some form?
1591 2013-06-17 22:17:38 <Luke-Jr> Haiku maybe?
1592 2013-06-17 22:17:39 <gfawkes> Haiku is promising, but still too immature an environment
1593 2013-06-17 22:17:58 <gfawkes> yeah, Haiku is the OSS recreation of BeOS
1594 2013-06-17 22:18:04 atweiden has joined
1595 2013-06-17 22:18:44 <handle> 17:52 < Luke-Jr> there is no best. every OS sucks. the question is what area you can personally tolerate sucking
1596 2013-06-17 22:18:47 <handle> eww
1597 2013-06-17 22:18:55 <handle> "the question is what area you can personally tolerate sucking"
1598 2013-06-17 22:18:57 ItsDom has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1599 2013-06-17 22:19:18 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
1600 2013-06-17 22:19:31 <Luke-Jr> …
1601 2013-06-17 22:22:07 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1604 2013-06-17 22:24:37 <BenderCoin> I was wondering if anyone knew if 'change' addresses are reused to receive change? or are new change addresses created when they are needed. I could not find anything on this with some searching.
1605 2013-06-17 22:25:52 <BenderCoin> The reason this is important is if someone uses a wallet to send btc to a mix service, then sends it back to the same wallet, then spends it, if the new spend can use an old change address, then the mix service 'clean coins' have now been linked with this old change address.
1606 2013-06-17 22:26:41 idstam-se has joined
1607 2013-06-17 22:26:57 <gmaxwell> BenderCoin: they are not reused.
1608 2013-06-17 22:27:10 <Mylon> Someone with more knowledge of the code will need to confirm / elaborate on this, but from what I understood, is that they by default always generate new addresses
1609 2013-06-17 22:27:41 <Mylon> Though ofc this is wallet specific
1610 2013-06-17 22:28:01 gfawkes has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
1611 2013-06-17 22:28:17 <BenderCoin> gmaxwell, so your response was in regards to bitcoin-qt then.
1612 2013-06-17 22:28:29 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
1613 2013-06-17 22:29:07 idstam has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1614 2013-06-17 22:29:16 <Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: not that you should use mixing services..
1615 2013-06-17 22:30:14 <BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, what do you dislike about mixing services?
1616 2013-06-17 22:30:17 <gmaxwell> BenderCoin: Yes.
1617 2013-06-17 22:30:23 <BenderCoin> thanks gmaxwell, Mylon, much appreciated.
1618 2013-06-17 22:30:37 jiffe98 has joined
1619 2013-06-17 22:30:39 <gmaxwell> BenderCoin: they sound like a great way to rob people.
1620 2013-06-17 22:30:41 MobPhone has joined
1621 2013-06-17 22:30:49 <Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: using them is probably criminal money laundry in most places, plus risky
1622 2013-06-17 22:30:55 <Mylon> BenderCoin: I'm not to fond of using mixing services either, as it gives criminals an easy way to launder money
1623 2013-06-17 22:31:27 <gmaxwell> Mylon: I think you misunderstand the intention of laundering money but thats not here nor there.
1624 2013-06-17 22:32:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: isn't the "intention"/definition of laundry defined as "hiding the source of money"?
1625 2013-06-17 22:33:19 <BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, no, its 'hiding the source of money obtained or involved in crime'
1626 2013-06-17 22:33:39 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1627 2013-06-17 22:34:01 <Mylon> the same idea I had about laundering money
1628 2013-06-17 22:34:03 <BenderCoin> "The process of taking the proceeds of criminal activity and making them appear legal."
1629 2013-06-17 22:35:09 <Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: I'm not aware of the laws specifying that it has to have been involved in crime
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1633 2013-06-17 22:35:59 <BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, every money laundering law is specifically about that, so you don't need to look far.
1634 2013-06-17 22:36:20 <Mylon> Have to Agree with Luke-Jr there, Government won't really care whether its involved in a crime or not, they just want to be able to track the money, and thus come down hard on any mixing service
1635 2013-06-17 22:36:43 <Mylon> its all about taxes :)
1636 2013-06-17 22:36:56 <gmaxwell> ...
1637 2013-06-17 22:37:05 <BenderCoin> well they won't crack down on a mixing service because of it laundering money, if anything it would be because of it being an MSB.
1638 2013-06-17 22:37:59 <BenderCoin> I bow out as this is bitcoin-dev and  I appreciate the tech answer on change addresses. power to you guys. thanks
1639 2013-06-17 22:38:00 PRab has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1640 2013-06-17 22:38:02 <gmaxwell> In any case, "mixing services" are generally a bad idea regardless of any concerns about their regulatory standing.
1641 2013-06-17 22:38:27 PrimeStunna has quit (Quit: PrimeStunna)
1642 2013-06-17 22:38:27 <Mylon> ^^
1643 2013-06-17 22:38:36 <BenderCoin> gmaxwell, have you written on this already on bitcoin talk?
1644 2013-06-17 22:38:38 <handle> there's always bitcoin fog
1645 2013-06-17 22:38:44 <handle> suuuper risky to put it in and mix
1646 2013-06-17 22:38:47 <handle> but once it's out you're clear
1647 2013-06-17 22:38:50 <Mylon> to follow up on the original question, would there be any benifit on re-using change addresses
1648 2013-06-17 22:38:52 <gmaxwell> They hand funds over to anonymous third parties who can steal them... and if the third parties _aren't_ anonymous then they really can't do a good job of keeping their logs secret.  Plus you end up conflating your txn with the kind of people who think they need mixing services.
1649 2013-06-17 22:39:03 <handle> ^
1650 2013-06-17 22:39:04 <handle> that too
1651 2013-06-17 22:39:06 <Luke-Jr> Mylon: addresses (in general) should only ever be used once
1652 2013-06-17 22:39:15 <gmaxwell> Well, I suppose its likely the case that the latter concern is moot, actual criminals are probably smart enough to not touch something like that.
1653 2013-06-17 22:39:18 <gmaxwell> :P
1654 2013-06-17 22:39:19 dog_ has joined
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1656 2013-06-17 22:39:32 <BenderCoin> gmaxwell, thanks
1657 2013-06-17 22:39:41 <handle> all you're really doing is mixing your dirty money in with other peoples' dirty money
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1662 2013-06-17 22:41:25 <Mylon> Luke-Jr: Agreed I try to use that as best practice, but still curious whether there could be a benifit of re-using change addresses. (for example to get less dust)
1663 2013-06-17 22:41:50 <sipa> Mylon: reusing addresses or not has nothing to do with the size of your coins
1664 2013-06-17 22:42:00 <sipa> i don't see how reusing addresses affects dust or not in any way
1665 2013-06-17 22:42:07 <sipa> they're orthogonal
1666 2013-06-17 22:42:19 <Mylon> sec, gotta google that word
1667 2013-06-17 22:42:31 <sipa> "independent"
1668 2013-06-17 22:42:45 <handle> Mylon: if you send to the same or different change addresses, you'll still have the same number of outputs
1669 2013-06-17 22:42:48 Habbie has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1670 2013-06-17 22:42:57 <gmaxwell> Mylon: your comment there indicates that you misunderstand how bitcoin works.
1671 2013-06-17 22:42:59 <Mylon> ahh yes ofc
1672 2013-06-17 22:43:01 <handle> and when creating a transaction, those outputs will still have to be combined into a transaction which will take up plenty of space in the block
1673 2013-06-17 22:43:09 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin— the system— does not have any concept of balances or accounts.
1674 2013-06-17 22:43:17 <handle> does that make sense? and is that correct?
1675 2013-06-17 22:43:22 <Mylon> yea, my bad, forgot :(
1676 2013-06-17 22:43:24 <sipa> handle: indeed
1677 2013-06-17 22:43:30 <handle> cool
1678 2013-06-17 22:43:45 <gmaxwell> It only tracks transactions, you can think of a transaction output as a coin. Bitcoin tracks those. To eliminate dust you must have fewer coins— doesn't matter how many addresses are involved.
1679 2013-06-17 22:44:22 <Mylon> yea I misunderstood dust
1680 2013-06-17 22:44:36 <sipa> dust is about small coins, not about small per-address balances
1681 2013-06-17 22:46:42 <Mylon> thanks for learning me something today guys :) always happy to learn more about bitcoin
1682 2013-06-17 22:49:36 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
1683 2013-06-17 22:51:08 Squid_ has joined
1684 2013-06-17 22:52:02 <sipa> ;;genrate 10000
1685 2013-06-17 22:52:03 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 19339258.2724, is 0.260044366411 BTC per day and 0.0108351819338 BTC per hour.
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1698 2013-06-17 23:05:51 <tubby2> Is there any poll to ask for color tags in transactions inside main block chain?
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1712 2013-06-17 23:20:19 Guest70882 is now known as Diablo-D3
1713 2013-06-17 23:20:56 handle is now known as aethero
1714 2013-06-17 23:21:06 aethero is now known as handle
1715 2013-06-17 23:23:29 handle is now known as aethero
1716 2013-06-17 23:23:29 aethero is now known as handle
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