1 2013-06-24 00:00:35 <Luke-Jr> fyi, http://letstalkbitcoin.com/post/53700133097/users-bitcoins-seized-by-dea
2 2013-06-24 00:00:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: huh what? my peers.dat is 46922 bytes. so about 38kbit/sec.
3 2013-06-24 00:00:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sounded pretty reasonable to me.
4 2013-06-24 00:01:02 <Luke-Jr> yep
5 2013-06-24 00:01:20 <gmaxwell> (maybe my peers.dat is small because this node is only on tor?)
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13 2013-06-24 00:14:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, 934432 bytes here
14 2013-06-24 00:16:06 <Luke-Jr> -rw------- 1 luke-jr luke-jr 1065152 Jun 23 23:48 .bitcoin/peers.dat
15 2013-06-24 00:16:15 <Luke-Jr> is there a prize for biggest file? :p
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18 2013-06-24 00:21:06 <shesek> someone at the DEA actually created a wallet to transfer the money to?
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21 2013-06-24 00:26:37 <warren> jgarzik: what commit made peers.dat dumping more often?
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23 2013-06-24 00:31:12 <phantomcircuit> shesek, why is that so hard to believe
24 2013-06-24 00:31:17 <phantomcircuit> it's not hard to do
25 2013-06-24 00:31:20 <phantomcircuit> and they're not idiots
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28 2013-06-24 00:34:40 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> why does bitcoin use ecdsa instead of dsa?
29 2013-06-24 00:35:15 <warren> i2pRelay: Answer: To discourage Fedora/RHEL users from building it.
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31 2013-06-24 00:36:23 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> can you elaborate a little on that?
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33 2013-06-24 00:39:37 <gmaxwell> toran: warren is being an unhelpful person.
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35 2013-06-24 00:39:51 <warren> yes.
36 2013-06-24 00:39:58 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> oh
37 2013-06-24 00:40:01 <gmaxwell> toran: Bitcoin using DSA would be a complete non-starter for scalablity. The transactions would be _far_ too large.
38 2013-06-24 00:40:20 <gmaxwell> toran: Also actual _DSA_ has much lower security than the ECDSA we use.
39 2013-06-24 00:40:43 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> lower security?
40 2013-06-24 00:40:58 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> what do you mean by "non-starter for scalability"?
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42 2013-06-24 00:41:36 <gmaxwell> Classic fips DSA is only specified with a 1024 bit key, IIRC. (unless they've revised the standard when I wasn't looking)
43 2013-06-24 00:42:11 <gmaxwell> toran: it would make transactions an order of magnitude larger. Bitcoin is a broadcast network. Increasing the transaction size greatly would be very bad.
44 2013-06-24 00:42:25 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> yeah i think that's what i use now
45 2013-06-24 00:42:45 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> and ecdsa is 160 bits?
46 2013-06-24 00:42:50 <gmaxwell> (Our ECC has security compariable to 3072 bit DSA, but has signatures comparirable to what you'd have for 256 bit DSA)
47 2013-06-24 00:43:15 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> no idea what any of that means
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50 2013-06-24 00:43:49 <gmaxwell> Okay, then you're asking questions where you don't actually have the background required to understand the answer.
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52 2013-06-24 00:44:14 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> yeah that's probably right
53 2013-06-24 00:44:25 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> but how is ecdsa more secure than dsa?
54 2013-06-24 00:45:08 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> do you mean ecdsa with 160 bits is comparable to 3072 bit dsa?
55 2013-06-24 00:45:26 <gmaxwell> toran: 256 bits, yes.
56 2013-06-24 00:45:30 <Luke-Jr> it's like building a house out of bricks instead of sticks
57 2013-06-24 00:46:19 <gmaxwell> toran: while having singnatures _much_ smaller than 3072 bit dsa would.
58 2013-06-24 00:46:38 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
59 2013-06-24 00:47:02 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> this is probably a stupid question, but what if you were designing a new p2p system like bitcoin and the "blockchain" only dealt with addresses and no public or private keys
60 2013-06-24 00:47:04 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> then is dsa safe?
61 2013-06-24 00:47:13 <gmaxwell> uh.
62 2013-06-24 00:47:31 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> :-D
63 2013-06-24 00:47:33 <gmaxwell> Anyone who would answer such a vague question is not behaving responsibly.
64 2013-06-24 00:47:35 <Luke-Jr> lol, apparently someone is more than 21 million BTC in debt <.<
65 2013-06-24 00:47:52 <Luke-Jr> toran: that doesn't even make sense
66 2013-06-24 00:47:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: pirate would have been now at his return rat.e
67 2013-06-24 00:48:02 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> @gmaxwell why?
68 2013-06-24 00:48:10 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> @luke why?
69 2013-06-24 00:48:19 <gmaxwell> toran: Because what you're saying doesn't make sense, as luke says.
70 2013-06-24 00:48:34 <gmaxwell> Something which was "only dealt with addresses" wouldn't be "like bitcoin"
71 2013-06-24 00:48:54 <gmaxwell> Because it would mean that nodes didn't participate in validation and basically every assumption in the system would go away.
72 2013-06-24 00:49:04 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> i thought bitcoin only used private keys to sign transactions, and public keys stored in the blockchain to check addresses
73 2013-06-24 00:49:10 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> private keys are not stored in the blockchain
74 2013-06-24 00:49:19 <Luke-Jr> â¦
75 2013-06-24 00:49:26 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't use DSA for anything however. The problem is strictly weaker. If I didn't have size restrictions I might use an even larger ECDSA instance however.
76 2013-06-24 00:50:12 <warren> has anyone implemented LamportCoin yet?
77 2013-06-24 00:50:37 <gwillen> aren't Lamport dignatures unspeakably large and compute-intensive?
78 2013-06-24 00:50:40 <gwillen> signatures*
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80 2013-06-24 00:50:50 <gmaxwell> They are computationally cheap as hell.
81 2013-06-24 00:50:57 <gwillen> huh, okay. So just unspeakably large?
82 2013-06-24 00:51:05 <gmaxwell> They're somewhat large though. But if you're already talking about 3kbit DSA .... well.
83 2013-06-24 00:51:08 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> kthnx guys bai
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85 2013-06-24 00:52:02 <gmaxwell> a 256 bit security lamport signature is 16kbytes, potentially somewhat smaller with some cleverness in the implementation.
86 2013-06-24 00:52:49 <warren> xkcd/538 is still a vulnerability
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88 2013-06-24 00:54:19 <gmaxwell> warren: oh yea because you're really going to go out and wrench completely unidentifable third parties who live on the other side of the world
89 2013-06-24 00:54:27 <gmaxwell> happens to me all the time
90 2013-06-24 00:54:37 <gwillen> warren: that's not really a useful vulnerability to consider when choosing cryptographic primitives, anyway
91 2013-06-24 00:54:43 <gwillen> it's more relevant to higher-level system design.
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96 2013-06-24 01:09:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you dont do that? hmm...
97 2013-06-24 01:09:58 <BCB> how do you list all transactions in your qt client
98 2013-06-24 01:12:19 <BCB> bitcoind listtransactions "*" ??
99 2013-06-24 01:12:49 <BCB> doesn't seem to be working in the version
100 2013-06-24 01:14:23 <gmaxwell> BCB: define not working?
101 2013-06-24 01:14:32 <gmaxwell> and define "the version"
102 2013-06-24 01:14:46 <BCB> not outputting ALL transactions made by the client
103 2013-06-24 01:15:04 <gmaxwell> BCB: by all do you mean more than 10?
104 2013-06-24 01:15:15 <BCB> yes
105 2013-06-24 01:15:26 <gmaxwell> then you need to tell it how many to output.
106 2013-06-24 01:15:42 <gmaxwell> it's the next field after your "*"
107 2013-06-24 01:15:58 <BCB> ty
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117 2013-06-24 01:45:22 <jgarzik> warren, I think sipa's pull req mentions what caused the peers.dat dumping problem
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120 2013-06-24 01:49:08 <warren> jgarzik: yeah I see it now. thanks.
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146 2013-06-24 03:20:03 <shesek> a type-2 deterministic key generation for javascript/nodejs, if anyone's interested: https://gist.github.com/shesek/5847473
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164 2013-06-24 04:04:54 <alusion> Is there a wiki?
165 2013-06-24 04:05:05 <alusion> I'm putting together a dev team in my area for summer coding projects
166 2013-06-24 04:05:45 <fanquake> alusion https://bitcoin.it/â
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257 2013-06-24 07:23:26 <tgs3> how is it going, fellow terrorists?
258 2013-06-24 07:23:29 <tgs3> California criminalizes bitcoin use - goes after bitcoin foundation
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262 2013-06-24 07:26:39 <gmaxwell> tgs3: uh. Can you please keep the misinformation in your own home?
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266 2013-06-24 07:28:56 <tgs3> gmaxwell: the articles is http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/california-sends-a-cease-and-desist-order-to-the-bitcoin-foundation/ which part of what I said differs? or this is article not correct?
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268 2013-06-24 07:29:21 <gmaxwell> tgs3: the first four words of it.
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272 2013-06-24 07:31:04 <Diablo-D3> california sends a cease?
273 2013-06-24 07:31:19 <gmaxwell> tgs3: The article makes no such claim, and the letter is really braindead and boring: http://www.scribd.com/doc/149335233/CA-State-Cease-and-Desist-May-30#page=1
274 2013-06-24 07:32:29 <gmaxwell> 'Aaron Greenspan is suing everyone and accusing us if not equally enforcing our money transmitter laws, to cover our asses, since he accused you tooâ we're sending out this letter that carefully alleges nothing but tells you if you're doing something you shouldn't be doing, that you should stop.'
275 2013-06-24 07:33:27 <tgs3> wouldnt small trader like local bitcoin users also be "doing money exchange business"? Ofc. some targets are bigger and targeted frist
276 2013-06-24 07:34:03 <gmaxwell> some targets are bigger? also? what are you talking about?
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278 2013-06-24 07:35:03 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin foundation is a professional org that does promotion and lobbying for bitcoin enthusiasts and companies. They only thing it does with money is accept dues from members and spend them, like any other professional org.
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287 2013-06-24 07:44:24 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey
288 2013-06-24 07:44:32 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: whats the best eventually consistent db
289 2013-06-24 07:44:50 <Diablo-D3> composable ops, the whole 9 yards
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312 2013-06-24 08:28:55 <gjs278> clearly it is couchdb
313 2013-06-24 08:29:06 <matjeh> it is webscale
314 2013-06-24 08:29:08 GordonG3kko has joined
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316 2013-06-24 08:31:21 <Scrat> Diablo-D3: cassandra
317 2013-06-24 08:31:41 t7 has joined
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319 2013-06-24 08:32:06 <Diablo-D3> its not for a webapp, and Im not using java
320 2013-06-24 08:33:33 <gjs278> I wish I could do something one day that wasn't a web app but somehow needed multiple dbs
321 2013-06-24 08:33:38 <Scrat> you don't need to use java
322 2013-06-24 08:34:24 <Scrat> but anyway what's the point of such a db on a program that you distribute?
323 2013-06-24 08:34:39 Eiii has quit ()
324 2013-06-24 08:34:52 <Diablo-D3> because its not distributed in a cluster
325 2013-06-24 08:35:37 GordonG3kko has joined
326 2013-06-24 08:36:33 <sipa> shesek: bip32
327 2013-06-24 08:36:41 <sipa> shesek: ?
328 2013-06-24 08:37:08 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, most of the nosql things are eventual consistency
329 2013-06-24 08:37:16 <phantomcircuit> mongodb being the one people go apeshit for
330 2013-06-24 08:37:55 Odyessus has joined
331 2013-06-24 08:38:06 <Diablo-D3> mongodb is a) shit, b) does not have composable ops
332 2013-06-24 08:38:08 Namworld has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
333 2013-06-24 08:38:22 <Scrat> c) no distributed writes
334 2013-06-24 08:38:38 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: not an issue, this isnt a cluster
335 2013-06-24 08:39:13 <TD> why would you use a bigtable-like db with no cluster?
336 2013-06-24 08:39:25 <gjs278> scale horizontally bro
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338 2013-06-24 08:39:42 <Diablo-D3> TD: I didnt say bigtable either
339 2013-06-24 08:39:45 panzer has joined
340 2013-06-24 08:39:45 <Scrat> it is an issue when only 1 node is a designated master. cassandra and riak are truly shared nothing
341 2013-06-24 08:40:09 agnostic98 has joined
342 2013-06-24 08:40:09 <Diablo-D3> basically, I want to keep a data store synchronized when machines are not networked to each other during long periods
343 2013-06-24 08:40:22 <Scrat> rsync
344 2013-06-24 08:40:22 <TD> mysql can't do that?
345 2013-06-24 08:40:23 <Scrat> lol
346 2013-06-24 08:40:46 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: hurr no
347 2013-06-24 08:40:52 <gjs278> multiple masters
348 2013-06-24 08:42:26 <Diablo-D3> TD: why would I use mysql?
349 2013-06-24 08:42:33 <Diablo-D3> that makes zero sense
350 2013-06-24 08:42:54 <TD> why would you not? it does replication. if network connectivity goes away the replication log will build up, but any system would have that property
351 2013-06-24 08:43:17 <Diablo-D3> because this isnt a webapp
352 2013-06-24 08:43:22 <Diablo-D3> and mysql is inappropriate
353 2013-06-24 08:44:33 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
354 2013-06-24 08:44:34 <gjs278> if it has to be multiple masters I dont know how well mysql will merge those two when it reconnects
355 2013-06-24 08:45:22 <TD> you can't do a correct arbitrary merge of two complicated divergent datasets unless you're using something like an operational transform algorithm. of course if your dataset is simple enough some ad hoc logic can work
356 2013-06-24 08:45:51 <gjs278> there are certain datatypes that can be merged
357 2013-06-24 08:46:02 <Diablo-D3> TD: well its why I asked for one with composable ops
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361 2013-06-24 08:50:49 <gjs278> http://code.google.com/p/orient/wiki/Replication best I could find
362 2013-06-24 08:51:35 <gjs278> https://github.com/nuvolabase/orientdb/wiki/Replication for their new host
363 2013-06-24 08:54:57 <Diablo-D3> almost tempted to just write something myself
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394 2013-06-24 09:53:33 <bitnumus> dont suppose anyone has a public mtgox websocket class?
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436 2013-06-24 11:42:52 spaceSub is now known as RME
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442 2013-06-24 11:57:28 <matjeh> is stratum protocol supposed to be wrapped inside HTTP?
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453 2013-06-24 12:14:09 <b0n1> hey guys, quick question: I just did a transaction to my address 135Bgfrjbt4yFHKcVK8w7HkdmELAjXgW3D. The address has never been used before and there was only this funding of 30 BTC to this address! When I check the blockchain, I see also an outgoing transaction, how can this be?
454 2013-06-24 12:14:19 <b0n1> https://blockchain.info/address/135Bgfrjbt4yFHKcVK8w7HkdmELAjXgW3D
455 2013-06-24 12:15:49 <b0n1> my wallet says that the payment never arrived at this address
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460 2013-06-24 12:17:00 <sturles> What client do you use?
461 2013-06-24 12:17:28 <b0n1> its an online wallet
462 2013-06-24 12:17:51 <b0n1> from localbitcoins
463 2013-06-24 12:17:55 <sturles> Ask support.
464 2013-06-24 12:18:18 <sturles> Online wallets work differently.
465 2013-06-24 12:18:19 <b0n1> does this outgoing transaction mean, that the btc were transferred further?
466 2013-06-24 12:18:24 <sturles> Yes.
467 2013-06-24 12:18:31 <b0n1> hm
468 2013-06-24 12:18:36 <b0n1> wtf
469 2013-06-24 12:18:51 <sturles> The BTC arrived and were transferred further.
470 2013-06-24 12:19:13 <sturles> If your online wallet didn't credit the coins to your account, you should contact support.
471 2013-06-24 12:19:21 <sturles> Which online wallet, btw?
472 2013-06-24 12:19:34 <b0n1> the localbitcoins.com wallet
473 2013-06-24 12:19:43 <sturles> OK
474 2013-06-24 12:19:55 zveda has left ("Ex-Chat")
475 2013-06-24 12:19:58 <sturles> Contact support there then.
476 2013-06-24 12:20:06 <b0n1> Yes, I will! thx!
477 2013-06-24 12:21:44 Blackreign has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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482 2013-06-24 12:41:11 <Luke-Jr> b0n1: no, it doesn't, and it's probably pretty normal
483 2013-06-24 12:42:12 <Luke-Jr> b0n1: blockchain.info is terrible at its attempts to de-cloak private Bitcoin info; I'd suggest ignoring it by default
484 2013-06-24 12:42:29 <Luke-Jr> if your wallet shows you have the money, there's not much to worry about usually
485 2013-06-24 12:43:31 vigilyn2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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487 2013-06-24 12:45:01 <b0n1> yes, but unfortunately it doesnt :(
488 2013-06-24 12:45:48 <b0n1> localbtc needs 3 confirmations, these happend an hour ago, nothing happened so far
489 2013-06-24 12:45:57 <Luke-Jr> hmm
490 2013-06-24 12:46:26 <b0n1> i wrote a support ticket, hope things will clear up
491 2013-06-24 12:46:30 <Luke-Jr> b0n1: you didn't do anything crazy like import/export a private key, by any chance?
492 2013-06-24 12:46:39 <b0n1> no, nothing
493 2013-06-24 12:47:08 <b0n1> just created this address completely new and did one transfer to it
494 2013-06-24 12:47:12 <b0n1> thats all
495 2013-06-24 12:47:12 <Luke-Jr> do you have any reason to assume localbitcoins.com isn't just a scam?
496 2013-06-24 12:47:22 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
497 2013-06-24 12:47:43 <b0n1> lol no
498 2013-06-24 12:47:57 <b0n1> i am happy with the service so far
499 2013-06-24 12:48:09 <b0n1> cant complain actually
500 2013-06-24 12:48:12 <Luke-Jr> well, I guess all you can do is hope it isn't at this point
501 2013-06-24 12:48:29 <Luke-Jr> I suppose 30 BTC shouldn't be enough someone risks trying to steal it
502 2013-06-24 12:48:49 <b0n1> yes, me too
503 2013-06-24 12:49:16 <b0n1> there are bigger transactions they could use for fraud
504 2013-06-24 12:49:17 <Luke-Jr> if you can't run a full Bitcoin-Qt node, you might want to consider a SPV client like Electrum
505 2013-06-24 12:49:44 <Luke-Jr> it can run without downloading the blockchain
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544 2013-06-24 14:03:08 jgarzik has joined
545 2013-06-24 14:03:19 <jgarzik> mornin'
546 2013-06-24 14:03:45 <BlueMatt> morning jgarzik
547 2013-06-24 14:05:05 andyh2 has joined
548 2013-06-24 14:05:58 <shesek> sipa, nope, a much simpler solution based on gmaxwell type-2 thingy
549 2013-06-24 14:06:22 <shesek> (<sipa> shesek: bip32?)
550 2013-06-24 14:08:49 <sipa> shesek: bip32 is also based on type-2
551 2013-06-24 14:09:03 <shesek> yeah, but added much more on top of that
552 2013-06-24 14:09:28 <shesek> that library just takes a public/private key and a string, and returns keys
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579 2013-06-24 14:45:22 * helo grumbles about the reference client's offline wallet support
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582 2013-06-24 14:49:17 <jgarzik> sipa, seems like the peers.dat fix might be appropriate for 0.8.3
583 2013-06-24 14:49:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, ^
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590 2013-06-24 14:59:30 <sipa> jgarzik: ack
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595 2013-06-24 15:04:54 <michagogo> helo: What support?
596 2013-06-24 15:05:36 andyh2 has joined
597 2013-06-24 15:05:53 diki has joined
598 2013-06-24 15:06:22 <diki> Is it possible in future versions of Bitcoin to be able to natively specify a custom message(as most pools) as part of the coinbase?
599 2013-06-24 15:06:39 <helo> michagogo: dingding ;)
600 2013-06-24 15:06:52 <michagogo> :-P
601 2013-06-24 15:08:18 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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604 2013-06-24 15:10:55 <jgarzik> sipa, did you see my email to bitcoin-development about C++ namespaces? Any opinion on wrapping our stuff in a bitcoin namespace, as a small beginning step?
605 2013-06-24 15:11:10 <jgarzik> It's easy to bikeshed and over-namespace at the beginning. Would prefer to start minimal.
606 2013-06-24 15:12:17 <helo> requiring (i.e. removing fat-finger protection unless) the offline machine validates the chain up to the last output you want to send arguably provides pretty good protection against full compromise of all online machines, at least
607 2013-06-24 15:12:25 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, is the pull tester alive again, for bitcoin.git HEAD?
608 2013-06-24 15:13:09 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: no, not yet
609 2013-06-24 15:13:12 <BlueMatt> (feel free to fix it)
610 2013-06-24 15:13:29 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts
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614 2013-06-24 15:17:38 <helo> an spv offline wallet using bitcoinj that transfers utxo chains and headers would be pretty nice
615 2013-06-24 15:18:15 taha has joined
616 2013-06-24 15:18:21 <helo> or not bitcoinj, i guess
617 2013-06-24 15:18:35 <BlueMatt> hmm?
618 2013-06-24 15:19:22 <helo> re: ideal offline wallet
619 2013-06-24 15:20:38 <helo> mostly processing the minimum amount of data to sufficiently protect against full compromise of all online machines, instead of processing the full blockchain as with an offline bitcoind
620 2013-06-24 15:20:52 KillYourTV has joined
621 2013-06-24 15:21:03 <helo> s/instead of/in some other way than/
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624 2013-06-24 15:23:57 <helo> i guess a simple non-verifying signing device that makes it easy to verify that outputs match is probably good enough
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628 2013-06-24 15:27:08 * jgarzik does a CodeShark summoning dance
629 2013-06-24 15:28:04 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell, what do we think about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1889 ? "let user select wallet file with -wallet=foo.dat" Any movement or thoughts beyond those included in the pull req ?
630 2013-06-24 15:28:09 * jgarzik leans towards closing
631 2013-06-24 15:28:42 * jgarzik is trying to close pull reqs that have been hanging out for a while, and don't seem to be making much progress in months
632 2013-06-24 15:28:43 ericmuyser has joined
633 2013-06-24 15:29:18 <jgarzik> down to 2 pages of pull reqs
634 2013-06-24 15:33:07 <TD> helo: like trezor?
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638 2013-06-24 15:35:50 <warren> hmm, I need to get a trezor. I hope it's capable of simultaneously holding multiple types of keys, both Bitcoin and otherversion=48 type.
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640 2013-06-24 15:36:40 <enigmuriatic> transaction timestamps in bitcoind are just the timestamp of the block, right?
641 2013-06-24 15:36:43 bts_ has joined
642 2013-06-24 15:37:09 <helo> TD: yep :)
643 2013-06-24 15:37:33 <sipa> jgarzik: as i've commented on the pull: if the db dir moves along with the wallet
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651 2013-06-24 15:46:16 <jgarzik> As much as Sergio occasionally can be annoying, firmcoin (firmcoin.com) does look interesting
652 2013-06-24 15:46:25 <jgarzik> (RE Trezor)
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668 2013-06-24 16:24:10 * jgarzik spies a CodeShark
669 2013-06-24 16:25:21 <jgarzik> CodeShark, would you update #2174? should be easy
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714 2013-06-24 17:30:01 <HaltingState> what other security models are there to proof of work, besides POS? any new suggestions?
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719 2013-06-24 17:34:18 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, that cease and desist is stupist thing i have ever seen; i live in CA and half a mile from my house they raided a organic vegan food coop with a swat team because they were selling raw milk; there are youtube videos on it
720 2013-06-24 17:34:24 <HaltingState> california is out of control
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723 2013-06-24 17:37:02 <pierce> HaltingState: I think that was more of a FDA (federal) thing than a state thing
724 2013-06-24 17:37:20 <HaltingState> like why can i eat the food i want
725 2013-06-24 17:37:21 <pierce> though it sounds like state police were happy to come along for the ride
726 2013-06-24 17:37:32 <HaltingState> is the government going to come and take my organic chia seeds next!?
727 2013-06-24 17:37:51 <HaltingState> i cant order coffee online in california either because its a "restricted item" if its from out of state
728 2013-06-24 17:37:53 peetaur2 has joined
729 2013-06-24 17:37:58 <pierce> it's more about selling than eating, but ya, those laws are pretty archaic
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732 2013-06-24 17:39:29 <HaltingState> I wonder if it will get better, i doubt it
733 2013-06-24 17:39:53 <HaltingState> regulatory capture, expansion of powers, etc.. there is no process for reversal
734 2013-06-24 17:40:02 <pierce> the problem is so many companies have terrible hygine standards, so rather than saying that animals shouldn't be raised in shit, just pasturize everything that comes out
735 2013-06-24 17:40:11 <HaltingState> complete lack of common sense in deciding who to raid, lack of discretion
736 2013-06-24 17:40:16 <pierce> HaltingState: old people die
737 2013-06-24 17:40:43 <HaltingState> oh ya in 20 years they will all be dead
738 2013-06-24 17:40:56 <helo> reversal process is "they mess up, people get aware, mad"
739 2013-06-24 17:40:58 CodesInChaos_ has quit ()
740 2013-06-24 17:41:05 <HaltingState> do you think the new old people will have a greater sense of the importance of liberty and common sense
741 2013-06-24 17:41:28 <Shockzz_> I personally don't.
742 2013-06-24 17:41:29 CodesInChaos_ has joined
743 2013-06-24 17:41:53 brson has joined
744 2013-06-24 17:42:03 <Shockzz_> There are quite a lot of people that don't have common sense, and a smaller portion that know what's wrong with this planet and DO have common sense.
745 2013-06-24 17:42:09 edwincheese has quit (Quit: edwincheese)
746 2013-06-24 17:42:33 jtimon has joined
747 2013-06-24 17:42:57 <pierce> HaltingState: I don't even think it is as much about liberty as it is about common sense. Pro-biotics are getting a better and better reputation, and soon the benefits will be undeniable, and when the stubborn people die off, better informed people will take their place.
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753 2013-06-24 17:49:05 <warren> sipa: <forrestv> warren, do you know whether the "standard" is to have OP_RETURN at the start or at the end of the scriptPubkey?
754 2013-06-24 17:49:13 <warren> petertodd: ^^
755 2013-06-24 17:49:36 <kinlo> it isn't standard afaik
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758 2013-06-24 17:50:53 <jgarzik> warren, note my patch gets it backwards
759 2013-06-24 17:51:04 <jgarzik> warren, the "standard" is what is correctly evaluated
760 2013-06-24 17:51:18 <warren> forrestv: ^^
761 2013-06-24 17:51:41 <sipa> i thought the idea was OP_RETURN at the start of the script
762 2013-06-24 17:51:50 <sipa> no point in trying to evaluate anything before
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765 2013-06-24 17:52:57 <jgarzik> sipa, petertodd's criticism was that my pull req defined the stack order in the reverse of what was required to achieve OP_RETURN at start of script
766 2013-06-24 17:53:03 <Luke-Jr> yeah, OP_RETURN at the start is the most obviously prunable
767 2013-06-24 17:53:13 TD is now known as TD[gone]
768 2013-06-24 17:53:17 * jgarzik intentionally left the code as-is to let other people evaluate for themselves
769 2013-06-24 17:53:26 <warren> forrestv: the goal is to make this prunable, so I guess start is best.
770 2013-06-24 17:53:47 <warren> forrestv: let's wait for petertodd though, since he's the one that asked for it
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774 2013-06-24 17:54:07 <jgarzik> I'm rusty on script, notably whether we want OP_RETURN on top-of-stack and thus listed last(?) in the source code
775 2013-06-24 17:54:10 <warren> forrestv: did you miss messages here?
776 2013-06-24 17:54:17 edwincheese has joined
777 2013-06-24 17:54:30 <forrestv> warren, no, i just tried to say "alright" and couldn't
778 2013-06-24 17:54:46 <forrestv> (so i auth'd)
779 2013-06-24 17:54:49 <warren> ah
780 2013-06-24 17:54:50 <jgarzik> clearly you want it evaluated first
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782 2013-06-24 17:55:24 <warren> jgarzik: btw, how's the pruning code? did anyone actually write it yet? we want to test it in the next litecoin.
783 2013-06-24 17:55:27 <jgarzik> forrestv, Yeah, after reams of spam we had to turn on register-to-talk
784 2013-06-24 17:55:58 <jgarzik> warren, real pruning? not written yet AFAIK. You have to think through how pruned nodes present themselves on the P2P network
785 2013-06-24 17:56:07 <warren> jgarzik: we have 13M UTXO, 12M of which are 1-satoshi spam. We will have a 95% miner vote that declares all 1-satoshi UTXO unspendable. After that point we can prune it.
786 2013-06-24 17:56:31 <warren> jgarzik: UTXO pruning? we talking about different things?
787 2013-06-24 17:57:20 <jgarzik> warren, apparently. Not sure what you mean, then. UTXO is auto-pruning from the standpoint of spent coins.
788 2013-06-24 17:57:23 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: OP_RETURN first would also be top-of-stack, I'm pretty sure
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792 2013-06-24 17:58:34 <jgarzik> i.e. given CScript() << CBigNum(4) << OP_RETURN ? or ? CScript() << OP_RETURN << CBigNum(4)
793 2013-06-24 17:58:40 <jgarzik> in the C++ source code
794 2013-06-24 17:58:48 <Luke-Jr> either
795 2013-06-24 17:58:50 <jgarzik> which has OP_RETURN as first evaluated opcode?
796 2013-06-24 17:59:05 <Luke-Jr> the latter, IIRC
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807 2013-06-24 18:07:29 <warren> jgarzik: in our case, after 95% miner vote, no 1-satoshi txo will be spendable ever again. That alone doesn't reduce the UTXO set. We would need something else that removes unspendable utxo.
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809 2013-06-24 18:11:32 <petertodd> sipa, warrne: definitely at the start, so we don't make the assumption that scripts can't exist part way
810 2013-06-24 18:12:07 <petertodd> OP_RETURN after all used to be defined as "return true"
811 2013-06-24 18:13:10 <petertodd> there is the edge case where it's slightly better at the end if you want to *prove* that the txout is unspendable, because you can provide a sha256 midstate, but that's only useful if the txout is the last one right now - seems like a marginal use-case
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815 2013-06-24 18:17:02 <warren> forrestv: ^^
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822 2013-06-24 18:26:32 <petertodd> *make the assumptions that scripts can't exit
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834 2013-06-24 18:48:51 <sipa> jgarzik: CScript() << OP_RETURN << anything
835 2013-06-24 18:48:58 <sipa> jgarzik: the code is in the order of the script
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852 2013-06-24 19:04:41 <dugo> process transactions that netto reduce the UTXO set for free
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865 2013-06-24 19:10:30 <grau> dugo: the preference of miner decides on block inclusion. A transaction that aggregates a lot of inputs is huge, taking up block space and might hurt their revenue. Unlikely that they would go with this.
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873 2013-06-24 19:21:03 <dugo> grau: ah well, then it probably doesn't hurt bad enough in expenses to keep the utxos around
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890 2013-06-24 19:34:10 <fluffypony> I have a question
891 2013-06-24 19:34:19 <fluffypony> if I call getinfo
892 2013-06-24 19:34:27 <fluffypony> paytxfee is 0 by default
893 2013-06-24 19:34:36 <fluffypony> does that mean that if I call sendtoaddress
894 2013-06-24 19:34:40 Internet13 has joined
895 2013-06-24 19:34:41 <fluffypony> that it's sent without a fee?
896 2013-06-24 19:35:01 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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898 2013-06-24 19:37:49 <sipa> fluffypony: if possible
899 2013-06-24 19:38:58 <fluffypony> well that's bad
900 2013-06-24 19:39:16 <fluffypony> I've sent most of my transactions straight from the CLI without realising
901 2013-06-24 19:39:18 <fluffypony> O.o
902 2013-06-24 19:39:22 * fluffypony feels bad
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905 2013-06-24 19:41:50 <michagogo> fluffypony: Why?
906 2013-06-24 19:42:06 <michagogo> I mean, transaction fees are good, but at this point in time it's not a significant amount
907 2013-06-24 19:42:10 <fluffypony> true
908 2013-06-24 19:42:38 <michagogo> Does anyone have statistics on average coinbase outputs?
909 2013-06-24 19:42:56 <michagogo> (i.e. average fees per block)
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920 2013-06-24 19:56:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I don't think that payment protocol is sufficient to prevent bad uses of txout data. Payment protocol works for those who are willing to not use the p2p network.
921 2013-06-24 19:56:49 <BlueMatt> what did I say?
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923 2013-06-24 19:57:02 <gmaxwell> "Concept/Code skim ACK, after payment protocol gets merged - too much ability to take the path of least resistance and just use OP_RETURN for adding data to a txn because there is no alternative."
924 2013-06-24 19:57:14 <BlueMatt> sufficient? no
925 2013-06-24 19:57:20 <BlueMatt> provides a better path, yes
926 2013-06-24 19:57:37 <gmaxwell> I'm not arguing with you, I'm adding to your comments. :)
927 2013-06-24 19:57:44 <BlueMatt> hopefully most people are willing to not use p2p, its a pretty shitty method to broadcast
928 2013-06-24 19:57:46 <BlueMatt> ok
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930 2013-06-24 19:58:12 <gmaxwell> I don't think anyone is working on anything that lets you use p2p but doesn't put junk in the blockchain.
931 2013-06-24 19:58:31 <petertodd> The audience who would make use of OP_RETURN can't use P2P for their goals
932 2013-06-24 19:59:02 <BlueMatt> the intended audience, yes
933 2013-06-24 20:00:07 <petertodd> and the audience who would use P2P, well they're going to use P2P because they're nice people
934 2013-06-24 20:00:21 <petertodd> OP_RETURN is meant to give bad people a way to do bad things in a less bad way
935 2013-06-24 20:01:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: there is no way to use the p2p right now that doesn't result in forever-storage.
936 2013-06-24 20:01:17 <gmaxwell> OP_RETURN doesn't change that, it just makes the forever storage less costly.
937 2013-06-24 20:01:30 <gmaxwell> There should be an option that doesn't result in forever storage.
938 2013-06-24 20:01:48 <petertodd> Do you mean P2P flood fill? because we can enable that pretty easily
939 2013-06-24 20:02:01 <gmaxwell> Without it being a DOS vector.
940 2013-06-24 20:02:36 <petertodd> Sure, lots of nice proof-of-sacrifice/stake/work techniques there.
941 2013-06-24 20:03:08 <petertodd> People have been talking about using bitmessage too for that purpose.
942 2013-06-24 20:03:51 <petertodd> re: OP_RETURN, frankly I think requiring such txouts to follow the dust rules is a good thing, just make it half as expensive so that doing the less-wrong thing is always cheaper
943 2013-06-24 20:04:26 <petertodd> Or just add it to a min relay fee, and make that min relay fee very large.
944 2013-06-24 20:04:40 <petertodd> (dust rules represent about 6x min relay fee)
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971 2013-06-24 20:50:54 <sipa> ;;blocks
972 2013-06-24 20:50:55 <altgribble> 243144
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1011 2013-06-24 21:43:39 <skinnkavaj> So many people are talking about "off chain" transacations which can be used in the "future"
1012 2013-06-24 21:43:47 <skinnkavaj> excatly how could that work? give me some examples
1013 2013-06-24 21:44:15 <skinnkavaj> with security in mind ofc
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1015 2013-06-24 21:46:56 <Diablo-D3> it cant be used
1016 2013-06-24 21:47:20 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: they're used all the time now.
1017 2013-06-24 21:47:39 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: Where and how?
1018 2013-06-24 21:47:40 <gmaxwell> E.g. transactions that happen between two mtgox users by default happen with no blockchain activity.
1019 2013-06-24 21:47:53 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1020 2013-06-24 21:47:56 <gmaxwell> Same for many other services that hold accounts.
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1022 2013-06-24 21:48:37 <gmaxwell> There is no particular technical reason why that couldn't be federated over a wider area
1023 2013-06-24 21:48:50 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: thats different though
1024 2013-06-24 21:48:56 <Diablo-D3> thats not a BITCOIN transaction
1025 2013-06-24 21:49:03 <Diablo-D3> thats a transaction involving bitcoins that go nowhere.
1026 2013-06-24 21:49:06 <Luke-Jr> yes it is
1027 2013-06-24 21:49:16 <Diablo-D3> if the bitcoin chain cant see it, its not a bitcoin transaction
1028 2013-06-24 21:50:47 <sipa> it's not a bitcoin-the-protocol transaction
1029 2013-06-24 21:50:53 <sipa> but it is a bitcoin-the-currency transaction
1030 2013-06-24 21:51:30 <Diablo-D3> sipa: but those are the same thing
1031 2013-06-24 21:51:37 <sipa> i disagree completely
1032 2013-06-24 21:51:39 <Diablo-D3> if its not done by the protocol, it doesnt exist
1033 2013-06-24 21:51:56 <sipa> you can have multiple bitcoin-the-currency transactions per bitcoin-the-protocol transactions even
1034 2013-06-24 21:52:09 <sipa> i can pay multiple people in one transaction
1035 2013-06-24 21:52:38 <Diablo-D3> thats not what Im talking about and you know it
1036 2013-06-24 21:52:52 <sipa> maybe not, but it is what we are talking about
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1059 2013-06-24 22:01:28 <iddo> skinnkavaj: the basic idea is for example at https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Myths&oldid=27737#Point_of_sale_with_bitcoins_isn.27t_possible_because_of_the_10_minute_wait_for_confirmation (option 3, not sure why it was deleted from the wiki), and improvements were discussed too, e.g. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91732.0
1060 2013-06-24 22:02:02 o3u has joined
1061 2013-06-24 22:02:52 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, this talks about micropayment channels too, https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1E4Aglf1sW6EMpNSjjWQ13GoZVPYljnydbghEV7w13nI/edit#slide=id.gf256a77_0_35
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1063 2013-06-24 22:03:05 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, http://en.bitcoin.it/ has some other examples
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1065 2013-06-24 22:03:49 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, petertodd did some thinking. Though not directly related, this is worth reading, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fidelity_bonds
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1067 2013-06-24 22:04:30 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, and as gmaxwell noted? transfers between two MtGox or Silk Road users are off-chain
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1074 2013-06-24 22:14:14 * helo imagines interface where user selects amount to send, where to send, and in within what timeframe tx/rx is acceptable
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1079 2013-06-24 22:14:41 <helo> so it might collect a day or longer's worth of transactions into one
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1083 2013-06-24 22:15:06 <helo> how much space does combining two typical transactions into one really save?
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1090 2013-06-24 22:16:15 <sipa> helo: a lot, i think
1091 2013-06-24 22:16:35 <sipa> depends on the inputs available, i guess
1092 2013-06-24 22:16:54 <helo> "Thank you for using the Bitcoin Super Saver Wallet! You have saved _.____ in fees!"
1093 2013-06-24 22:17:16 <sipa> if all inputs are the same amount, below what is being sent, you need a proportional number of inputs and you won't save much
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1095 2013-06-24 22:17:54 <sipa> if you have a variety of inputs, above what is being sent, you'll typically only need one regardless of your payment amounts
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1097 2013-06-24 22:20:33 <iddo> elliptic curves have the property that you can aggregate many signatures into one signature that verifies all of them, see http://crypto.biu.ac.il/winterschool2013/Boneh-school-overview.pdf (page 9, or search "bitcoin")
1098 2013-06-24 22:21:12 <iddo> but i'm a little confused on what exactly would be the use case for this with bitcoin, anyone knows?
1099 2013-06-24 22:21:16 <gmaxwell> iddo: many signatures with the same public key is easy. And also useless.
1100 2013-06-24 22:21:38 <sipa> iddo: is that batch verification?
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1102 2013-06-24 22:22:08 <gmaxwell> The general batch case is interesting for block validation.
1103 2013-06-24 22:22:29 <sipa> it's a known technique, but it requires (for ECDSA) that the full R point is known, not just the x coordinate
1104 2013-06-24 22:22:39 <gmaxwell> But ^
1105 2013-06-24 22:22:51 <sipa> and you get an exponential blowup in the number of signatures if you don't have that information
1106 2013-06-24 22:23:04 <sipa> which makes it pretty much useless, as the gains are never over a factor ~2
1107 2013-06-24 22:23:24 <iddo> what is batch verification? one single signature that verifies all the transactions in the block?
1108 2013-06-24 22:23:45 <sipa> batch verification is the procedure where you get a list of (signature,pubkey) tuples and verify them all
1109 2013-06-24 22:23:52 <sipa> Ed25519 does it well
1110 2013-06-24 22:24:08 <sipa> ECDSA (with just r's X coordinate, the standard way) doesn't
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1112 2013-06-24 22:24:44 <sipa> i believe that Ed25519 gets a factor 2 speedup when verifying 64 signatures at once
1113 2013-06-24 22:25:04 <sipa> which is nice, but not worth so much hassle
1114 2013-06-24 22:25:05 <iddo> i thought the the idea is to get rid of all the signatures and replace them with a single signature? is there a use case for that?
1115 2013-06-24 22:25:14 <sipa> oooh
1116 2013-06-24 22:25:27 <sipa> you're talking about split signatures
1117 2013-06-24 22:25:53 <sipa> where you can have multiple parties sign, and have them combine the signatures into one
1118 2013-06-24 22:26:10 <sipa> implementing N-of-N signatures at the crypto level rather than the script level
1119 2013-06-24 22:26:41 <iddo> right, i see
1120 2013-06-24 22:27:06 <iddo> so this is the only use case for aggregating signatures at the crypto level, for bitcoin?
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1123 2013-06-24 22:37:32 <iddo> maybe you could compress a block by stripping all the signatures and having just one aggregated signature, but you must keep the pubkeys of all the transactions
1124 2013-06-24 22:38:24 <sipa> iddo: let me ask you this: why do you store a block at all?
1125 2013-06-24 22:38:52 <iddo> so everyone can verify the ledger history?
1126 2013-06-24 22:39:13 <sipa> bingo
1127 2013-06-24 22:39:21 <sipa> would that work, if you change it?
1128 2013-06-24 22:39:31 <sipa> *if you change the contents of transaction
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1131 2013-06-24 22:40:07 <iddo> you could still verify that the pubkeys are valid for the individual transactions, and just verify one single signature at the end?
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1134 2013-06-24 22:40:40 <sipa> but you won't be able to prove that the transaction's hashes are correct
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1137 2013-06-24 22:41:09 <sipa> so you can't prove the set of unspent transaction outputs (which are indexed by txid) is correct
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1139 2013-06-24 22:42:38 <iddo> op_checksig checks that the implicit message which is the entire transaction fits the signature? so just have op_checksig now verify the single aggregated signature?
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1143 2013-06-24 22:43:38 <sipa> yes, that allows verification of a transaction
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1145 2013-06-24 22:43:42 <sipa> but that's worthless
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1148 2013-06-24 22:43:55 <sipa> you need to know the transaction is valid, and what its txid is
1149 2013-06-24 22:44:13 <sipa> and you cannot prove that txid if you change a signature
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1151 2013-06-24 22:45:12 <iddo> is that an inherent problem? or just the particular behavior of the protocol?
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1154 2013-06-24 22:46:23 <sipa> well since a block's hash is computed from its header, and the header contains the merkle root of the transactions's hashes in it, yes that is an inherent problem: you can't prove a block is correct if you can't prove which transactions are part of it
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1156 2013-06-24 22:46:34 <sipa> that's just one problem, there are probably others
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1160 2013-06-24 22:48:11 <iddo> the problem is that the signature must be hashed into txid ?
1161 2013-06-24 22:48:18 <sipa> yes
1162 2013-06-24 22:48:34 <iddo> ok i see
1163 2013-06-24 22:48:35 <sipa> that's the essense of the problem, indeed
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1167 2013-06-24 22:58:19 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ping
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1171 2013-06-24 23:00:35 <devrandom> hey BlueMatt
1172 2013-06-24 23:00:57 <BlueMatt> devrandom: did the email asking about license for gitian ever get forwarded to you?
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1174 2013-06-24 23:01:10 <devrandom> I don't think so
1175 2013-06-24 23:01:13 <devrandom> let me double check
1176 2013-06-24 23:01:26 <BlueMatt> well, to sum it up, there is no license file, please add one
1177 2013-06-24 23:01:50 <devrandom> sure. what do you recommend?
1178 2013-06-24 23:02:33 * BlueMatt doesnt really care, Id assume either mit or gpl depending on your personal leanings
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1180 2013-06-24 23:02:55 <devrandom> okey dokey
1181 2013-06-24 23:03:02 * BlueMatt gladly licenses his contributions under anything that doesnt result in any liability for me
1182 2013-06-24 23:03:04 <maaku> are there any unit tests for CScriptCompressor?
1183 2013-06-24 23:03:32 <sipa> maaku: don't think so
1184 2013-06-24 23:03:37 <maaku> ok
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1187 2013-06-24 23:04:01 <sipa> there are for the amount compression, iirc
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1189 2013-06-24 23:04:08 <maaku> yeah i saw those
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1192 2013-06-24 23:04:18 <BlueMatt> devrandom: though its not a huge deal, technically you need to ping all the people who have contributed and get them to agree to the new license :(
1193 2013-06-24 23:04:29 <sipa> maaku: i'm not sure i'd recommend using that in something that is intended to be normative, though
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1195 2013-06-24 23:04:46 <sipa> maaku: it's probably overly complex for what it's worth, and people will need to reimplement it exactly
1196 2013-06-24 23:05:24 <maaku> sipa: it's for the txid:n index
1197 2013-06-24 23:05:35 <sipa> ok?
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1199 2013-06-24 23:06:00 <maaku> ok i mean: what alternative is there?
1200 2013-06-24 23:06:25 <sipa> something similar, for simpler
1201 2013-06-24 23:06:28 <sipa> *but
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1204 2013-06-24 23:07:09 <sipa> ultraprune started as an experiment to know how small the UTXO set could be stored
1205 2013-06-24 23:07:20 <sipa> and it turned into an actual database layout that uses it
1206 2013-06-24 23:08:35 <maaku> i don't think it is overly complex
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1208 2013-06-24 23:08:52 <maaku> or rather i think the complexity is necessary and inherent
1209 2013-06-24 23:09:09 <maaku> i'm reimplementing it in Python for the utxo index tests I'm running
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1211 2013-06-24 23:09:31 <maaku> so there'd be at least two interoperable implementations if/when we use it for the normative indexes
1212 2013-06-24 23:09:32 <sipa> for example the varint scheme (which i'm quite proud of...) has ridiculously low benefit over a much more trivial scheme
1213 2013-06-24 23:10:34 <sipa> though it has the nice property of being 1:1
1214 2013-06-24 23:11:33 <gmaxwell> maaku: necessary? hm? you can just serialize the whole transaction. (not saying this is a grand scheme, but necessary is too big a claim)
1215 2013-06-24 23:12:15 <BlueMatt> sipa, wumpus, Luke-Jr: after devrandom pushes a license file to gitian's repo, can y'all do something to release your contributions under that license?
1216 2013-06-24 23:12:15 <BlueMatt> I assume putting an empty commit on top of the license commit and pushing that will make someone happy
1217 2013-06-24 23:12:17 <maaku> gmaxwell: my definition of necessary is different than yours
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1222 2013-06-24 23:13:48 <gmaxwell> There are different considerations, however, for a normative data structure. People struggle to get endianness correct in their implementations.
1223 2013-06-24 23:13:59 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: merely asking each of us in advance is the correct route I think
1224 2013-06-24 23:14:31 <gmaxwell> And at the same timeâ there is still space being left on the floor. I can give you a nice range coder if you'd like one. Sipa's current stuff strikes one particular complexy / performance / storage trade-off.
1225 2013-06-24 23:15:06 <gmaxwell> But that set of tradeoffs was for a non-normative thing so I wouldn't automatically assume a normative encoding justified the same tradeoff.
1226 2013-06-24 23:15:53 <maaku> gmaxwell: i can't range-code more than a single transaction. would you expect double-digit or better compression from that?
1227 2013-06-24 23:16:42 <sipa> no, but i expect less than 0.01% from my varint encoder :p
1228 2013-06-24 23:17:09 <gmaxwell> maaku: One of the considerations that come up with normative encodings vs non-normative is that when the prior probablities changeâ different transactions are commonâ you can just change a non-normative encoding.
1229 2013-06-24 23:17:57 <gmaxwell> maaku: Single transaction at a time actually doesn't matterâ assuming that you would expect it to handle the transactions in any order the only gain from statefulness would be knowing the prior probablities, which could be baked inâ but I think doing that in a normative datastructure is bad.
1230 2013-06-24 23:19:12 <maaku> gmaxwell: more to the point, in an authenticated datastructure it has to be stateless, ... unless you have some way of prepending necessary state to a proof
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1235 2013-06-24 23:21:09 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: GPL3 okay?
1236 2013-06-24 23:21:39 <gmaxwell> maaku: I'm not actually clear what you think you're telling me there that I don't know already.
1237 2013-06-24 23:21:52 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: personally, I'd prefer MIT; but GPLv3 is okay iff it's clear that it doesn't "infect" the software itself or binaries
1238 2013-06-24 23:22:04 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: by default, the GPLv3 would likely infect the binaries output
1239 2013-06-24 23:22:29 <Luke-Jr> which would make Bitcoin non-distributable
1240 2013-06-24 23:22:38 <gmaxwell> and certantly the current transactions could be made much smaller by further compressing them. a standard script could be reduced to a tiny fraction of a bit plus its high entropy arguments.
1241 2013-06-24 23:23:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: ehm, we do that (well, one byte instead of one bit)
1242 2013-06-24 23:23:38 <sipa> in the UTXO set at least
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1246 2013-06-24 23:25:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: Not even 1 bit. I assume right now it would be about 1.4427e-05 bits. so.. vs 1 byte thats a factor of 1.8e6 space savings! :P
1247 2013-06-24 23:25:11 <gmaxwell> I think this would be a poor idea. But if you're going to take one comple encoding which embeds assumptions about what transactions look like, why not another?
1248 2013-06-24 23:26:22 <gmaxwell> (Answer: because it's slowâ and because no one wants to put 400 LOC of complicated packing code in a normative structure. I totally agree, but by that same token I don't think it's automatically obvious that its right to copy the one used in bitcoin today)
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1253 2013-06-24 23:32:42 <devrandom> Luke-Jr, sipa, BlueMatt: OK to do GPLv3 for Gitian, with clarification that outputs are not affected by license?
1254 2013-06-24 23:34:04 <BlueMatt> I hereby license my contributions to gitian-builder under GPLv3 and do not claim any copyright or license requirements on any derivatives or outputs generated by the software therein
1255 2013-06-24 23:34:22 <BlueMatt> wumpus too
1256 2013-06-24 23:34:43 <BlueMatt> (needs to, that is, he is laanjw on github)
1257 2013-06-24 23:37:07 * BlueMatt -> sleep
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1259 2013-06-24 23:37:39 <devrandom> later BlueMatt
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1273 2013-06-24 23:50:30 <md2k7> the most common transaction uses 4 OPs and a 20-byte hash of a public key
1274 2013-06-24 23:50:44 <md2k7> so why is the VI for the script length usually 25 (I count 24 above)?
1275 2013-06-24 23:51:31 <md2k7> (txout script)
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1279 2013-06-24 23:53:02 <md2k7> oh crap, figured it out, it's the <bytes to push> for the hash. as in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Standard_Transaction_to_Bitcoin_address
1280 2013-06-24 23:53:42 <gaantr2> does anyone know how I can get "ticker" into my app?
1281 2013-06-24 23:54:17 <gaantr2> writing a Java application - I'd like to get ;;ticker price into the application
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1283 2013-06-24 23:54:47 <md2k7> gaantr2: I guess poll a web service for it? like bitcoincharts.com or blockchain.info have developer APIs
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1289 2013-06-24 23:59:54 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: ok