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 134 2013-06-27 01:51:05 <imd23> hi
 135 2013-06-27 01:52:02 <imd23> can someone explain me the script part of the transactions?
 136 2013-06-27 01:52:57 <phantomcircuit> imd23, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
 137 2013-06-27 01:53:09 <phantomcircuit> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions
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 141 2013-06-27 01:55:05 <A2501> any programer here that uses ruby?
 142 2013-06-27 01:55:31 <gwillen> A2501: oddly enough, yes, why?
 143 2013-06-27 01:56:45 impulse has joined
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 145 2013-06-27 01:57:18 <A2501> I need someone to finish a work some idiot did not finish
 146 2013-06-27 01:57:22 <A2501> sorry my language
 147 2013-06-27 01:57:40 <gwillen> ah sorry, I'm not doing contract work
 148 2013-06-27 01:57:42 <gwillen> but good luck :-)
 149 2013-06-27 01:57:55 <A2501> well, is ready
 150 2013-06-27 01:58:02 <A2501> just need few things
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 153 2013-06-27 01:58:31 <imd23> phantomcircuit: Thanks, I tried to read that but my head is a mess, i need some lower level explanation.
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 249 2013-06-27 04:02:14 <saivann> I should merge bitcoin.org pull req #212 tomorrow, unless someone want to add add a comment or ask for a delay
 250 2013-06-27 04:02:15 <saivann> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/212
 251 2013-06-27 04:02:55 <saivann> This pull requests adds the "About bitcoin.org" page, with explanations about the owners, the goals of bitcoin.org and steps to help or report a problem with bitcoin.org
 252 2013-06-27 04:04:12 <gmaxwell> It could use some english massaging, I'm just not up to it right now. The substance sounds fine to me as I think I said.
 253 2013-06-27 04:04:27 <gmaxwell> nanotube: midnightmagic: ^ care to do some english tinkering?
 254 2013-06-27 04:06:22 <saivann> Would be welcome, of course
 255 2013-06-27 04:12:59 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin.org is not the official Bitcoin website <-- "not an official.."
 256 2013-06-27 04:13:50 <saivann> Luke-Jr, noted
 257 2013-06-27 04:14:10 <Luke-Jr> You can report any problem or help to improve bitcoin.org on github by opening an issue or a pull request in english. <-- capitalize GitHub and English
 258 2013-06-27 04:14:30 <Luke-Jr> other than that, looks good to me
 259 2013-06-27 04:14:46 <saivann> Thanks
 260 2013-06-27 04:15:03 <saivann> These were big changes :)
 261 2013-06-27 04:17:14 wallet43 has joined
 262 2013-06-27 04:18:06 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/1zUKf4gn <-- thoughts on portable strerror hack? :/
 263 2013-06-27 04:26:08 melvster has joined
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 265 2013-06-27 04:29:24 <gmaxwell> Gitian on LWN: http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/555761/c2ff2739171620e9/  (if you're not a LWN subscriber, you should be, it's pretty great)
 266 2013-06-27 04:30:17 <nanotube> saivann: posted comment on github
 267 2013-06-27 04:31:01 <gmaxwell> nanotube: thanks!
 268 2013-06-27 04:31:15 <saivann> nanotube : Thanks. So you would say "who controls Bitcoin.?"
 269 2013-06-27 04:31:21 brson has joined
 270 2013-06-27 04:31:34 <saivann> Or Then...
 271 2013-06-27 04:32:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: considering things that gitian can't solve, like digital signatures, I wonder if software to compare is more important than software to compile
 272 2013-06-27 04:32:48 <Luke-Jr> though with compiler optimization differences, that might be more difficult
 273 2013-06-27 04:33:15 triciam has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 274 2013-06-27 04:33:42 <gmaxwell> The signature stuff can be accomplished with sutiable masking though.
 275 2013-06-27 04:33:49 <gmaxwell> which isn't exactly tricky.
 276 2013-06-27 04:34:21 <nanotube> saivann: then... :)
 277 2013-06-27 04:34:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so could timestamps
 278 2013-06-27 04:34:40 <saivann> nanotube, Dumb question, but I've got to be sure, thanks
 279 2013-06-27 04:34:46 <nanotube> :)
 280 2013-06-27 04:36:24 <Luke-Jr> saivann: "then…" if you want to be unicode-correct ;)
 281 2013-06-27 04:40:51 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 282 2013-06-27 04:42:24 triciam has joined
 283 2013-06-27 04:42:31 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: hehe, the thought of you and your unicode ellipses did cross my mind when i made that suggestion :) omg goomh!
 284 2013-06-27 04:42:55 RoboTeddy has joined
 285 2013-06-27 04:43:25 <gmaxwell> He's not the only person to use them;
 286 2013-06-27 04:43:27 <gmaxwell> …
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 292 2013-06-27 04:52:06 <Arnavion> Hipster, the lot of you!
 293 2013-06-27 04:52:31 agnostic98 has joined
 294 2013-06-27 04:52:57 <Arnavion> You'll have to pry my ... from my cold dead hands
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 312 2013-06-27 05:22:43 LorenzoMoney has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
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 331 2013-06-27 05:58:31 <imd23> I get "Private key for address XXX is not known (code -4)"
 332 2013-06-27 05:58:42 <imd23> any idea?
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 337 2013-06-27 06:04:26 <Luke-Jr> imd23: encrypted wallet
 338 2013-06-27 06:06:27 <imd23> yeah
 339 2013-06-27 06:06:33 <imd23> but already unlocked
 340 2013-06-27 06:07:02 <imd23> Luke-Jr: maybe I unlocked it wrong...
 341 2013-06-27 06:08:14 <Luke-Jr> maybe
 342 2013-06-27 06:08:36 <imd23> timeout 0 is infinite or none?
 343 2013-06-27 06:09:02 <imd23> it was none
 344 2013-06-27 06:09:09 <imd23> I got it now. it's working :)
 345 2013-06-27 06:10:15 <imd23> Luke-Jr: Thanks
 346 2013-06-27 06:10:48 <imd23> Luke-Jr: do you know how can I create a transaction wallet agnostic?
 347 2013-06-27 06:11:03 <Luke-Jr> ?
 348 2013-06-27 06:11:10 <imd23> I mean, typing everything in the command line , abstracting the wallet database
 349 2013-06-27 06:11:16 <imd23> like If I have everything printed.
 350 2013-06-27 06:11:19 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 351 2013-06-27 06:11:54 <imd23> Luke-Jr: is it with sendrawtransaction ?
 352 2013-06-27 06:13:04 Ferroh_ has quit (Quit: *SMOKE BOMB*)
 353 2013-06-27 06:13:28 <Luke-Jr> probably
 354 2013-06-27 06:14:47 <imd23> Luke-Jr: I am developing a new online service. Can I implement everything in my service to get the signrawtransaction work and use bitcoind as a gateway to the bitcoin network? I am asking because of the load.
 355 2013-06-27 06:14:53 <imd23> load/performance
 356 2013-06-27 06:15:53 <imd23> I mean, may be 50 transactions / minute or more, I have no idea the load we will have
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 358 2013-06-27 06:17:44 <jchp> 50 transactions per minute is quite a lot
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 360 2013-06-27 06:18:31 <imd23> ok
 361 2013-06-27 06:18:49 <imd23> I have no idea I told you...
 362 2013-06-27 06:19:03 <imd23> anyway, from a technical point of view
 363 2013-06-27 06:19:07 <imd23> is 50 a lot?
 364 2013-06-27 06:19:37 <jchp> sendrawtransaction can handle that no problem, i'm just saying it's unlikely you'll be doing that
 365 2013-06-27 06:21:34 <imd23> jchp: awesome
 366 2013-06-27 06:21:56 <imd23> yeah, I hope everyone to use our new exchange idea/service
 367 2013-06-27 06:22:08 <imd23> will be awesome, but I still have to learn a lot
 368 2013-06-27 06:22:19 <imd23> so.. will take some time to get it up
 369 2013-06-27 06:24:19 <Luke-Jr> imd23: you'd have to implement the wallet yourself for what it sounds like you want
 370 2013-06-27 06:25:21 molecular has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 371 2013-06-27 06:27:14 <Luke-Jr> imd23: for reference, note that the Bitcoin blockchain protocol can only sustain up to 195 transactions per minute, so if you expect to do 50/m, you'll really need to look into alternatives
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 377 2013-06-27 06:28:25 <Luke-Jr> imd23: unfortunately, everything is still pretty immature :/
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 387 2013-06-27 06:46:51 <imd23> Luke-Jr: I hope so, but we probably won't
 388 2013-06-27 06:47:01 <imd23> at first time I mean.
 389 2013-06-27 06:47:21 <imd23> now.. when I do a "getrawtransaction"
 390 2013-06-27 06:47:22 RazielZ has joined
 391 2013-06-27 06:47:30 <imd23> does it give me the whole chain?
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 394 2013-06-27 06:54:20 <imd23> oh…I've got it now. The transaction I was looking at was big because it had lot of vouts
 395 2013-06-27 06:54:22 <imd23> :)
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 584 2013-06-27 10:43:04 <dansmith_btc> HI, as I understand the only use of PUBkey is to derive a btc address. Apart from that, are there any security implications in revealing one's PUBkey to the world?
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 590 2013-06-27 10:54:33 <warren> dansmith_btc: they know your identity
 591 2013-06-27 10:54:59 <dansmith_btc> warren, OK, but nothing apart from that, I guess?
 592 2013-06-27 10:55:18 <warren> that I'm aware of
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 594 2013-06-27 10:55:58 <gmaxwell> huh? identity?
 595 2013-06-27 10:56:12 <gmaxwell> from an identity perspective knowing a pubkey is the same as knowing an address.
 596 2013-06-27 10:56:41 <gmaxwell> dansmith_btc: knowing the public key would enable someone with some kind of attack on ECC to begin trying to crack it.  This is a highly theoretical concern.
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 599 2013-06-27 10:58:43 <dansmith_btc> gmaxwell, sounds good.
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 606 2013-06-27 11:04:53 <t7> i thought address was derived from priv key?
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 610 2013-06-27 11:05:26 <t7> and address was pub key
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 612 2013-06-27 11:07:34 <kinlo> t7: the public key is derrived from the private key, and the bitcoin address is derrived from the public key by using several hashing rounds followed by an encoding round (base58+checksum)
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 614 2013-06-27 11:11:20 <melvster> in case anyone missed it: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/publications/tech-reports/7xx/789.pdf
 615 2013-06-27 11:11:31 <melvster> double spend attack reported
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 620 2013-06-27 11:14:43 <gmaxwell> melvster: Are you one of the authors of that? it would be polite to cite the many times that transaction pattern has been discussed on the forum.
 621 2013-06-27 11:16:27 <gmaxwell> This isn't new, the same is true for anything with respect to is IsStandard rules, and it's one of the reasons specifically cited in telling people to consider unconfirmed transactions unsafe.
 622 2013-06-27 11:17:13 <gmaxwell> Even without any IsStandard rule change any number of similar transaction patterns could be used to the same end.
 623 2013-06-27 11:18:19 <gmaxwell> (e.g. send a transaction which is non-standard but still accepted by some miners;  or simultaniously send the victim one transaction while sending many miners another, etc.
 624 2013-06-27 11:18:22 <gmaxwell> )
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 628 2013-06-27 11:26:00 <melvster> gmaxwell: no im not an author, do you have a pointer to the discussions?   safe / unsafe is not a binary thing
 629 2013-06-27 11:26:42 <sipa> it's an inevitability when relay rules changes
 630 2013-06-27 11:26:50 <sipa> that some nodes will accept and other won't
 631 2013-06-27 11:27:11 <sipa> but the end result (everyone enforcing strict signatures) will be a strictly better situation for everyone
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 634 2013-06-27 11:29:36 <melvster> sipa: so this attack was not 'introduced' with 0.8.3 but was always there?
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 636 2013-06-27 11:30:29 <sipa> the 'attack' is that 0-conf transaction acceptable can be cheated, and any change in relay rules amplifies that
 637 2013-06-27 11:31:01 <sipa> and yes, 0.8.2 no long relaying non-canonical signatures is an example of that
 638 2013-06-27 11:31:07 <sipa> but so is the dust relay change rule
 639 2013-06-27 11:31:18 <sipa> or the non-standardness of 0-value outputs earlier
 640 2013-06-27 11:31:34 <sipa> or the enforcing of p2sh transactions before that
 641 2013-06-27 11:31:53 <melvster> sipa: thanks for explaining
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 643 2013-06-27 11:32:35 <gmaxwell> I responded to the post on the bitcoin development list. You might be interested in that.
 644 2013-06-27 11:33:00 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 645 2013-06-27 11:33:05 <TD> i like how some people publish a "paper" on these things when i'd have just made a mailing list or forum post
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 648 2013-06-27 11:34:30 <melvster> gmaxwell: which thread is that?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=11425;sa=showPosts
 649 2013-06-27 11:35:07 <gmaxwell> melvster: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAAS2fgRg8B_j%3DLuf31R8-%2BvqOWQOUcUDof8wdq79_Ar9YuUm9g%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
 650 2013-06-27 11:35:27 <melvster> oh thanks
 651 2013-06-27 11:35:42 <gmaxwell> esp see the forum thread I linked to.
 652 2013-06-27 11:36:34 <melvster> thx, strange that post didnt yet make it to my inbox
 653 2013-06-27 11:36:41 <sipa> neither did it here
 654 2013-06-27 11:38:11 <sipa> now it did
 655 2013-06-27 11:38:21 <melvster> me too
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 659 2013-06-27 11:38:33 <gmaxwell> I saw it!
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 661 2013-06-27 11:40:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: I've been resisting linking them to http://githubredir.debian.net/ because I'm sure they'd set me on fire with some weird ranting about linux debian somethinganohter. :P
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 663 2013-06-27 11:41:46 <gmaxwell> (lots of debian packages pull directly from git tag urls like ours)
 664 2013-06-27 11:41:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: i believe (trying to) show you (try to) understand is more helpful :)
 665 2013-06-27 11:42:32 <gmaxwell> :)
 666 2013-06-27 11:43:01 <gmaxwell> No real point in arguing it, its weird that we don't do freestanding source tarballs. I must just be in a contrary mood.
 667 2013-06-27 11:43:11 <gmaxwell> But the demand still seems inexplicable to me.
 668 2013-06-27 11:43:55 <BlueMatt> github itself will give you freestanding git tag tarballs
 669 2013-06-27 11:44:03 <BlueMatt> no need to use any githubredir or such fancyness
 670 2013-06-27 11:44:27 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/archive/$TAG.zip
 671 2013-06-27 11:44:42 <BlueMatt> I think you can replace zip with tar.gz too
 672 2013-06-27 11:45:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: they argue that the zips/tgzs there are generated on-the-fly, and don't guarantee consistency
 673 2013-06-27 11:46:03 <sipa> (their checksums may change)
 674 2013-06-27 11:46:11 <BlueMatt> meh
 675 2013-06-27 11:46:18 <sipa> i don't know if that's true, but if it is, it's a reasonable argument why it's a problem for them
 676 2013-06-27 11:46:37 <gmaxwell> I'd like to know if it's true.
 677 2013-06-27 11:46:57 <gmaxwell> It would be a better argument that they're not cryptographically signed— except none of these things check cryptographic signatures. :(
 678 2013-06-27 11:48:29 <BlueMatt> they should git checkout the tag's hash
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 689 2013-06-27 12:09:55 <michagogo> Is there software out there to easily create blocks to your specifications?
 690 2013-06-27 12:10:12 <michagogo> For example, adding certain data, or a specific non-broadcast transaction?
 691 2013-06-27 12:10:30 metabyte has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 692 2013-06-27 12:10:37 <TD> well, there are libraries
 693 2013-06-27 12:10:50 metabyte has joined
 694 2013-06-27 12:12:47 user-_ has joined
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 696 2013-06-27 12:14:53 BW^- has joined
 697 2013-06-27 12:14:56 <BW^-> what's the nickname of he who develops BitcoinJ?
 698 2013-06-27 12:15:10 <sipa> maybe TD knows
 699 2013-06-27 12:15:10 <gmaxwell> TD: quick, hide.
 700 2013-06-27 12:15:31 <SomeoneWeird> HE WHO DEVELOPS BITCOINJ SHALL NOT BE NAMED
 701 2013-06-27 12:15:40 <TD> hi
 702 2013-06-27 12:15:41 Plinker_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 703 2013-06-27 12:15:57 <BW^-> someoneweird: i had his nick.. can't remember now
 704 2013-06-27 12:16:00 <BW^-> someoneweird: why do you say that anyhow?
 705 2013-06-27 12:16:11 <BW^-> bitcoinj is the highest quality bitcoin librayr implementation right?
 706 2013-06-27 12:16:29 <TD> that's rather subjective. i don't know, i'm not really familiar with the others.
 707 2013-06-27 12:16:29 <sipa> BW^-: TD is the primary author of BitcoinJ, in case that wasn't clear
 708 2013-06-27 12:16:40 <BW^-> cool :)
 709 2013-06-27 12:16:41 <TD> i'd like to think it's of a decent quality, especially around documentation
 710 2013-06-27 12:16:49 <TD> but it certainly has its fair share of bugs
 711 2013-06-27 12:16:55 <BW^-> TD: like what bugs?
 712 2013-06-27 12:17:03 <BW^-> sipa: k thx
 713 2013-06-27 12:17:16 <BW^-> would there be any other bitcoin library implementation that would be more mature than bitcoinj, i wouldn't think so??
 714 2013-06-27 12:17:31 <TD> well just look at the bug tracker :-) assertEquals(1, myWallet.getTransactions(true).size());
 715 2013-06-27 12:17:31 <TD>         assertTrue(myWallet.getTransaction(coinbase.getHash()).isCoinBase());
 716 2013-06-27 12:17:32 <TD> oops
 717 2013-06-27 12:17:36 <TD> stupid X keyboard
 718 2013-06-27 12:17:42 <TD> the bug tracker here being - https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/list
 719 2013-06-27 12:20:10 <TD> BW^-: where are you going with this? what do you want to do?
 720 2013-06-27 12:20:30 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 721 2013-06-27 12:20:55 <BW^-> td: 1sec
 722 2013-06-27 12:22:37 <BW^-> td: basically a general-purpose use with lots of hooks all over
 723 2013-06-27 12:22:47 <BW^-> so like, it needs to work without bugs, about like that
 724 2013-06-27 12:24:20 rdymac has joined
 725 2013-06-27 12:24:52 <TD> so it needs to do everything, be fully customizable, and have no bugs?
 726 2013-06-27 12:24:56 <TD> good luck with that :-)
 727 2013-06-27 12:25:07 <TD> i'd suggest reading the bitcoinj docs to get a feel for if it can do what you want. bugs can be fixed.
 728 2013-06-27 12:25:09 <michagogo> What's wrong with this command:
 729 2013-06-27 12:25:09 <michagogo> createrawtransaction {"txid":"txid_here","vout":0} {"address_here":1}
 730 2013-06-27 12:25:20 <michagogo> As entered into the Console of bitcoin-qt
 731 2013-06-27 12:25:21 <TD> bitcoinj IS used by quite a lot of projects, somehow they manage, so it can't be unusably buggy
 732 2013-06-27 12:25:25 <michagogo> (don't worry, using testnet)
 733 2013-06-27 12:25:55 <michagogo> (also, will that send a bitcoin or a satoshi?)
 734 2013-06-27 12:26:18 <sipa> michagogo: what error do you get?
 735 2013-06-27 12:26:50 <michagogo> Error: Error parsing JSON:{txid:address_here,vout:0}
 736 2013-06-27 12:26:55 <michagogo> erm, txid_here
 737 2013-06-27 12:27:09 <BW^-> td:  :))
 738 2013-06-27 12:27:26 <BW^-> td: i believe the docs are fine enough, i mean basically all the transacting is in there and really works right?
 739 2013-06-27 12:27:37 <sipa> michagogo: can you paste me the exact command?
 740 2013-06-27 12:27:40 <sipa> michagogo: perhaps in PM
 741 2013-06-27 12:27:52 <TD> BW^-: you can send money around and receive it, yes.
 742 2013-06-27 12:28:02 <TD> i think your best bet is just to try it and see if it works
 743 2013-06-27 12:28:08 taha has joined
 744 2013-06-27 12:28:46 <BW^-> so, you should just use a bitcoind as "firewall" as not to trig anything unintended in it - the bitcoind would "normalize" the input
 745 2013-06-27 12:28:50 <BW^-> td: yeah sounds like that
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 748 2013-06-27 12:29:02 <TD> yeah
 749 2013-06-27 12:29:07 <BW^-> in all cases, it is the best bitcoin library around right?
 750 2013-06-27 12:29:08 <TD> that's a good way to use the library.
 751 2013-06-27 12:29:09 <BW^-> in any language
 752 2013-06-27 12:29:10 <TD> lol
 753 2013-06-27 12:29:13 <sipa> michagogo: i think you may need some escaping
 754 2013-06-27 12:29:15 <BW^-> :))
 755 2013-06-27 12:29:23 <michagogo> What needs to be escaped?
 756 2013-06-27 12:29:28 <sipa> don't know the exact semantics of the console
 757 2013-06-27 12:29:33 <BW^-> td: ah, can i ask you some questions as i go along reading the source, about how it fits together?
 758 2013-06-27 12:29:33 <sipa> but iirc it mimics a unix shell
 759 2013-06-27 12:29:42 <sipa> so you can't use { directly
 760 2013-06-27 12:29:54 <michagogo> so s/{/\{/?
 761 2013-06-27 12:29:55 <TD> yes, of course. bear in mind that bitcoinj was designed for small devices like mobile phones and still is driven by that need, mostly
 762 2013-06-27 12:30:02 <BW^-> aha
 763 2013-06-27 12:30:05 <TD> its support for things people often want on the server is not that great
 764 2013-06-27 12:30:10 <BW^-> td: how does that impact it, in terms of performance or anything?
 765 2013-06-27 12:30:17 <TD> like, some people want the ability to run bitbanks with it and it doesn't work that well for this
 766 2013-06-27 12:30:18 <BW^-> to me spontaneously that sounds good
 767 2013-06-27 12:30:19 <michagogo> That's not it
 768 2013-06-27 12:30:22 <michagogo> Same error
 769 2013-06-27 12:30:32 <BW^-> td: aha, by what reason?
 770 2013-06-27 12:30:35 <sipa> createrawtransaction '[{"txid":"a9d4599e15b53f3eb531608ddb31f48c695c3d0b3538a6bda871e8b34f2f430c","vout":0}]' '{"mkZBYBiq6DNoQEKakpMJegyDbw2YiNQnHT":50}'
 771 2013-06-27 12:30:41 <sipa> try that style
 772 2013-06-27 12:30:41 <michagogo> Oh
 773 2013-06-27 12:30:47 <michagogo> The [] is actually supposed to be there?
 774 2013-06-27 12:30:48 <TD> they want the ability to manage millions of keys or huge wallets or load and unload wallets, other things that are best done with fully indexed databases of the block chain, etc.
 775 2013-06-27 12:31:00 <BW^-> aha
 776 2013-06-27 12:31:00 <michagogo> Oops.
 777 2013-06-27 12:31:01 <sipa> michagogo: yes, you can have multiple inputs
 778 2013-06-27 12:31:03 <TD> with bitcoinj you basically get a wallet that you can send/receive from, and if it gets too big then performance gets very poor.
 779 2013-06-27 12:31:06 <sipa> oh, that's probably it then :)
 780 2013-06-27 12:31:08 <BW^-> aha i'm completely with you,
 781 2013-06-27 12:31:12 <TD> it's not optimised for huge deployments
 782 2013-06-27 12:31:18 <BW^-> it's like features and stuff that are simply not there
 783 2013-06-27 12:31:19 <BW^-> yep got you
 784 2013-06-27 12:31:37 <TD> if you want to create a new blockchain.info then, well, people have done that.
 785 2013-06-27 12:31:41 <TD> but it took some work from their side.
 786 2013-06-27 12:31:43 <michagogo> Aha
 787 2013-06-27 12:31:48 jchp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 788 2013-06-27 12:31:49 <TD> e.g. SatoshiDice is built on bitcoinj but they had to customise it quite a bit
 789 2013-06-27 12:31:53 <michagogo> So yeah adding '[ and ]' fixed it
 790 2013-06-27 12:31:55 <michagogo> Thanks :-D
 791 2013-06-27 12:32:10 jchp has joined
 792 2013-06-27 12:33:08 <BW^-> td: so basically the fundamentals work very well anyhow, like, getting the chain and performing the basic operations
 793 2013-06-27 12:33:16 <BW^-> well gr8 :)
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 795 2013-06-27 12:33:33 <TD> yeah if you don't want to scale up then it works fine. if you want to build an end-user wallet app, that's what it's optimised for
 796 2013-06-27 12:33:36 agnostic98 has joined
 797 2013-06-27 12:33:46 <TD> and we're adding features at the moment to make it easy/easier to work with contracts.
 798 2013-06-27 12:33:55 <TD> but again, designed for small apps that don't handle a lot of traffic.
 799 2013-06-27 12:34:00 <BW^-> aha
 800 2013-06-27 12:34:02 <BW^-> td: contracts?
 801 2013-06-27 12:34:03 <TD> the best place to ask questions is the mailing list
 802 2013-06-27 12:34:08 <TD> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/WorkingWithContracts
 803 2013-06-27 12:34:15 <BW^-> td: btw, when you run it in "full block chain mode", what kind of RAM consumption characteristics does it have now?
 804 2013-06-27 12:34:16 <TD> multi-signature transactions and other things
 805 2013-06-27 12:34:29 <michagogo> What would I do if I wanted to mine a block and insert an unbroadcasted transaction I have?
 806 2013-06-27 12:34:32 <TD> BW^-: ask BlueMatt, he manages that part of the codebase. but for a "real app" you should be using it in SPV mode connected to a bitcoind you own
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 809 2013-06-27 12:37:40 <BW^-> td: hm, for my thing i'd prefer fully verifying, so that really all is in bitcoinj
 810 2013-06-27 12:38:08 <michagogo> (testnet)
 811 2013-06-27 12:38:13 <BlueMatt> BW^-: problem is bitcoinj full verification is still "beta"
 812 2013-06-27 12:38:16 <TD> yes, except that as it says on the website and documentation fully verifying mode is *experimental*. you are likely to be exposed to chain splitting bugs if you do that.
 813 2013-06-27 12:38:21 <TD> it's not something i'd recommend for production usage.
 814 2013-06-27 12:38:32 <gmaxwell> BW^-: running a SPV node behind a full verifying node that you run _is_ full verifying.
 815 2013-06-27 12:38:32 <BlueMatt> and there doesnt exist a full verification engine outside of bitcoind that I would trust very much...
 816 2013-06-27 12:38:51 <TD> there are no implementations of bitcoin other than the original that i'd trust for handling real money right now. that's why we suggest running it behind a bitcoind
 817 2013-06-27 12:38:54 <BW^-> yes i know - i would be running the "full verifying" bitcoinj *behind* a bitcoind that's full verifying already
 818 2013-06-27 12:38:58 <gmaxwell> It's just spilting up your server into to parts— a network speaking validting part, and your application.
 819 2013-06-27 12:39:00 <TD> well ...... why.
 820 2013-06-27 12:39:03 <BW^-> it's just that i want all the database to be able to access it
 821 2013-06-27 12:39:04 <TD> it doesn't add any security. just overhead.
 822 2013-06-27 12:39:06 <BlueMatt> there is no reason for that, though...
 823 2013-06-27 12:39:21 <TD> what it gives you is access to the UTXO set. not a fully indexed database of the entire chain
 824 2013-06-27 12:39:22 <BlueMatt> you can get the same db (and a better one) without running in full verification mode
 825 2013-06-27 12:39:26 <gmaxwell> BW^-: thats a way to become DOS vulnerable until the code matures. It may or may not be relevant for your application.
 826 2013-06-27 12:39:42 <TD> BW^-: what app are you wanting to write?
 827 2013-06-27 12:40:28 <BW^-> i know it doesn't add security - it's having the full UTXO set i was haivng on my mind.
 828 2013-06-27 12:40:53 <BW^-> td: currently i want to get the bitcoin system more, in a very mechanic way as to handle it programmatically, and i picture digging into bitcoinj's sources is the best way of doing this
 829 2013-06-27 12:41:42 <BW^-> in terms of practicality, to handle some wallets.
 830 2013-06-27 12:41:45 [\\\\] has left ()
 831 2013-06-27 12:42:02 <BW^-> if i could add an index atop bitcoinj would be great, though i should get the system better first -
 832 2013-06-27 12:42:12 <BW^-> the protocol is incredibly simple indeed though i want to see how it plays out in practice.
 833 2013-06-27 12:43:40 <BW^-> chain splitting bugs - ouch, so it's at that level.
 834 2013-06-27 12:44:51 thrasher` has quit (Changing host)
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 836 2013-06-27 12:46:43 <TD> ok
 837 2013-06-27 12:46:52 <BW^-> td: how would you go about to make a full indexed database today?
 838 2013-06-27 12:46:58 <TD> BW^-: i would never describe the bitcoin protocol as "simple", heh
 839 2013-06-27 12:47:02 <TD> it might LOOK simple .....
 840 2013-06-27 12:47:25 <sipa> the p2p protocol is simple
 841 2013-06-27 12:47:29 <TD> BW^-: well indeed i'd extend the H2FullPrunedBlockStore class. H2 is a full sql database so it's much slower than bitcoind which uses leveldb, but it does mean you can add more tables and indexes quite easily
 842 2013-06-27 12:47:33 <sipa> the validation rules aren't :)
 843 2013-06-27 12:47:55 <TD> BW^-: try talking to alexander lolis. he has already written a block explorer on top of bitcoinj
 844 2013-06-27 12:47:57 abrkn has joined
 845 2013-06-27 12:48:09 <BW^-> :)
 846 2013-06-27 12:48:13 <TD> BW^-: and he learned a lot whilst doing that! i know because i answered his questions, hehe. he hasn't contributed any of his code back yet but he said he would
 847 2013-06-27 12:48:21 <TD> i think a fully indexing database was a part of that
 848 2013-06-27 12:48:52 <BW^-> td: cool! is he on irc too?
 849 2013-06-27 12:49:07 <TD> no. you can email him though. if you sign up the mailing list you can find his posts in the archives
 850 2013-06-27 12:49:37 <BW^-> yep cool noted
 851 2013-06-27 12:54:00 taha has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 852 2013-06-27 12:56:13 <BW^-> td: can i ask you some Q:s in PM?  i'll try to Get It now today :)))
 853 2013-06-27 12:56:27 <BW^-> first i have some intro questions just to get that i'm reading the source in the right direction, so to speak
 854 2013-06-27 12:56:35 <BW^-> getting the entry points and data flow roughly
 855 2013-06-27 12:56:51 <TD> i think we should use this channel unless it gets busy or there's other people wanting to use it, as it's logged so it should be googleable
 856 2013-06-27 12:56:58 <BW^-> aha
 857 2013-06-27 12:56:59 <BW^-> good
 858 2013-06-27 12:57:01 <TD> BW^-: there is an article that explains that
 859 2013-06-27 12:57:07 <sipa> there doesn't seem to be any other discussion here now
 860 2013-06-27 12:57:13 <TD> BW^-: https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/HowThingsFitTogether
 861 2013-06-27 12:57:46 <BW^-> awesome.
 862 2013-06-27 12:58:01 <BW^-> ah btw, Q, Alexis' full chain index, does that use full verifying mode or SPV?
 863 2013-06-27 12:58:11 <TD> it's fully verifying too, i think
 864 2013-06-27 12:58:24 <TD> actually i'll ping him and see where he got up to
 865 2013-06-27 12:59:14 <BlueMatt> payment channels code :D :D https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/detail?r=4908c241f7161bc5facfb85b466feba2929f2567
 866 2013-06-27 12:59:35 <TD> (micropayment channels that is)
 867 2013-06-27 12:59:43 <TD> congrats BlueMatt. Great work!
 868 2013-06-27 13:00:34 dan__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 871 2013-06-27 13:01:32 <BlueMatt> TD: hey, you wrote the initial implementation
 872 2013-06-27 13:01:53 <TD> yeah and then went on vacation whilst you did all the rest, haha :)
 873 2013-06-27 13:01:55 <TD> like a boss
 874 2013-06-27 13:02:13 <michagogo> What would I need to do if I wanted to solo-mine a testnet block and include a transaction that hasn't been broadcast to the network?
 875 2013-06-27 13:02:36 <TD> michagogo: send it to your own node, then start it mining i guess. or you mean you want to send it to your node and not have it be relayed at all?
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 877 2013-06-27 13:02:50 <TD> michagogo: there's no out of the box way to do that, but you could hack the code so there's a relay blacklist
 878 2013-06-27 13:03:11 <TD> BlueMatt: sourceforge is really slow to deliver mail, huh
 879 2013-06-27 13:03:20 <BlueMatt> TD: it always is
 880 2013-06-27 13:03:54 <michagogo> TD: Is there no mining software that offers that option?
 881 2013-06-27 13:04:02 <TD> could be. i don't know much about mining.
 882 2013-06-27 13:04:15 <BlueMatt> thats not really up to the miner, thats up to bitcoind...
 883 2013-06-27 13:04:20 rdymac has joined
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 885 2013-06-27 13:05:26 <BW^-> td: so Alexander Lolis presumes that the full verifying bitcoinj mode works right?
 886 2013-06-27 13:05:29 <BW^-> i mean, his project is based on that
 887 2013-06-27 13:05:36 <BW^-> as in, does not incur any unintended splits or anything
 888 2013-06-27 13:05:37 <BW^-> ?
 889 2013-06-27 13:05:38 <michagogo> Does mining software that works without bitcoind not exist?
 890 2013-06-27 13:06:08 <BlueMatt> BW^-: its fairly stable, and for a block explorer if it hiccups every once in a while its not a huge deal, but if you are actually doing payments and such on it, its not recommended
 891 2013-06-27 13:06:10 <kinlo> michagogo: currently everybody generating blocks uses the satoshi client
 892 2013-06-27 13:06:12 <kinlo> hence bitcoind
 893 2013-06-27 13:06:36 <michagogo> Wasn't there something about miners being able to insert their own transactions?
 894 2013-06-27 13:06:38 <kinlo> michagogo: atm the other implementations of the bitcoin client are just not reliable enough to mine upon afaik
 895 2013-06-27 13:06:40 <BlueMatt> michagogo: no, and if you do find some, please ping them and tell them to not do that until they've written an order of magnitude more test-cases to compare their implementation with bitcoind
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 897 2013-06-27 13:06:50 <BW^-> bluematt: what kind of memory consumption does it havE?
 898 2013-06-27 13:06:51 <BlueMatt> michagogo: yes, but you let bitcoind do the transaction selection
 899 2013-06-27 13:07:01 <michagogo> BlueMatt: What do you mean?
 900 2013-06-27 13:07:02 <BW^-> i know bitcoind went from like 1.5GB to like couple of hundred MB due to some optimization, a while ago
 901 2013-06-27 13:07:14 <kinlo> michagogo: most pools have their bitcoind patched to do all sorts of funky stuff
 902 2013-06-27 13:07:29 <kinlo> michagogo: if you want to include special transactions, you probably would go that way too
 903 2013-06-27 13:07:31 <TD> BW^-: that was optimising the network code. i don't know what kind of memory usage a fully verifying bitcoinj app has, but it's a fair bet it'll be more than bitcoind
 904 2013-06-27 13:07:37 <michagogo> Hmm, are any of those patches public?
 905 2013-06-27 13:07:43 <kinlo> michagogo: yes
 906 2013-06-27 13:07:44 <BlueMatt> BW^-: its java, so...not great, but since most of the library is designed to fit on constrained android devices, TD has done a good job keeping memory consumption down
 907 2013-06-27 13:07:47 <TD> BW^-: reason being, H2 is a full store, and java code tends to be more of a memory piggy by default anyway.
 908 2013-06-27 13:08:00 <TD> sorry by "full store" i meant "sql database"
 909 2013-06-27 13:08:01 <michagogo> kinlo: (where can they be found?)
 910 2013-06-27 13:08:08 <TD> man, a lot of words are getting mangled between brain and keyboard today
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 912 2013-06-27 13:08:24 <kinlo> michagogo: I'd have to look
 913 2013-06-27 13:08:29 <BlueMatt> michagogo: many miners (hopefully going to) use the getblocktemplate rpc call to allow miners to select their own transactions, but those miners use bitcoind to do the selection....its really a thing for pools
 914 2013-06-27 13:08:30 <kinlo> michagogo: what do you want to do?
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 917 2013-06-27 13:08:52 <kinlo> michagogo: you would *need* a pool to do anything related
 918 2013-06-27 13:09:23 <michagogo> kinlo: At the moment, mine a testnet block that contains a transaction that I have that is not broadcast until the block is released
 919 2013-06-27 13:09:52 <kinlo> michagogo: so simply patch the bitcoind not to broadcast transactions...
 920 2013-06-27 13:10:00 <kinlo> that shouldn't be too hard if you know a bit of C++
 921 2013-06-27 13:10:06 <michagogo> Which I don't :-/
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 924 2013-06-27 13:10:53 <michagogo> Meh, g2g for now... bbl.
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 930 2013-06-27 13:18:48 <TD> i'm not aware of such a thing, but i don't know how H2 works internally
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 934 2013-06-27 13:18:56 <BlueMatt> BW^-: no, it has to hold a large lookup table
 935 2013-06-27 13:19:15 <BW^-> bluematt: it does or does not have to hold a large lookup table?
 936 2013-06-27 13:19:22 <BlueMatt> but it can freely be on disk
 937 2013-06-27 13:19:28 <BW^-> does not, aha
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 939 2013-06-27 13:19:38 <BlueMatt> it has to have it, but it can be in an sql store on disk
 940 2013-06-27 13:19:44 <BW^-> super
 941 2013-06-27 13:19:55 <BW^-> does that have a Huge impact on performance, or why does BitcoinD choose to keep it in RMA?
 942 2013-06-27 13:19:56 <BW^-> RAM
 943 2013-06-27 13:20:12 <TD> bitcoind does not hold it in RAM. it may *cache* it in RAM, mind you
 944 2013-06-27 13:20:15 <TD> unless you're thinking of the headers
 945 2013-06-27 13:20:16 <BW^-> for code simplicity only? i mean, you sacrifice lots of usecases by requiring 500MB+ RAM for an app
 946 2013-06-27 13:20:28 <BW^-> bitcoind 0.7 took like 1.5GB
 947 2013-06-27 13:20:35 <BlueMatt> no, that was network cluge
 948 2013-06-27 13:20:38 <BW^-> TD: not sure
 949 2013-06-27 13:20:39 <BlueMatt> not anything required
 950 2013-06-27 13:20:41 <BW^-> wow really
 951 2013-06-27 13:20:41 _milone has joined
 952 2013-06-27 13:20:44 <BlueMatt> its network code was bad...
 953 2013-06-27 13:20:48 <BW^-> incredible. aha thank you for highlighting this.
 954 2013-06-27 13:20:50 <sipa> git head should be able to run with close to 500 MiB
 955 2013-06-27 13:20:59 <TD> it's much better in the latest versions
 956 2013-06-27 13:21:03 <TD> and yes it was networking code
 957 2013-06-27 13:21:11 JyZyXEL has joined
 958 2013-06-27 13:21:11 <BlueMatt> well, mostly
 959 2013-06-27 13:21:19 <BlueMatt> also mempool, but the network stuff was...
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 963 2013-06-27 13:22:49 <runeks> Does anyone know if Bitpay has anyway to see what their USD exchange rate for bitcoins is?
 964 2013-06-27 13:23:14 <runeks> I mean, if *I* have any way to see what Bitpay's current BTCUSD exchange rate is...
 965 2013-06-27 13:23:22 <runeks> jgarzik?
 966 2013-06-27 13:24:15 <BW^-> td: what do you base your tendency to recommend bitcoind for serious stuff when in full verification today - is it that another node implementation such as yours, needs to *mimic bitcoind specifics* as not to cause a chain split locally , or simply like funamental logics bugs in BitcoinJ, that there is some error in how it handles the protocol spec?
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 968 2013-06-27 13:24:48 <TD> the former
 969 2013-06-27 13:24:53 <BW^-> really
 970 2013-06-27 13:24:54 <BW^-> hm
 971 2013-06-27 13:25:00 <TD> there are no chain splitting bugs that we know if in bitcoinj (except that it does not implement block version 2)
 972 2013-06-27 13:25:12 <TD> however we are pretty sure there are some chain splitting bugs in there we don't know about!
 973 2013-06-27 13:25:37 <BW^-> td: so when someday you realize there is one, you'll learn to know this quite quickly because everyone will be buzzing you about it, and fix it? =)
 974 2013-06-27 13:25:50 <BW^-> generally with a one-line patch i'd guess?
 975 2013-06-27 13:26:09 freewil has joined
 976 2013-06-27 13:26:19 <TD> well, we don't really know how many users there are. but yes we've had bug reports of chain splits before.
 977 2013-06-27 13:26:21 <TD> so clearly some people do.
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 979 2013-06-27 13:28:04 <BW^-> ok
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 981 2013-06-27 13:30:14 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 982 2013-06-27 13:31:31 <BW^-> td: what about block version 2 support?
 983 2013-06-27 13:32:02 <TD> it'd be a nice contribution if you want to do it. it basically means checking the height is in the coinbase input script at the right location. not very hard.
 984 2013-06-27 13:33:08 <gmaxwell> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=ports/179435 :-/
 985 2013-06-27 13:33:25 <BW^-> td: so it's not about bitcoinj using an older spec or format version and could be considered outdated at some point because of that or anything like that?
 986 2013-06-27 13:33:25 <gmaxwell> checking those commit IDs it seems like freebsd is shipping random non-release commits of bitcoin.
 987 2013-06-27 13:34:13 <TD> we should write some code that checks an ELF signature and prints a bigass warning if you're not using upstream builds
 988 2013-06-27 13:34:20 Subo1978 has joined
 989 2013-06-27 13:36:18 <gmaxwell> I wish the boost test frameworked differently so that you could realistically make (some of?) your unit tests part of the dist binary so you can do tests on install or startup.
 990 2013-06-27 13:37:40 Subo1978_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 991 2013-06-27 13:39:45 <TD> the problem of course, is that they'd just patch out any checks we added to discourage use of downstream binaries
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 993 2013-06-27 13:40:01 <TD> we should maybe have a file in the source tree explaining the issues inherent in distributor repackaging (and/or a website page)
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 997 2013-06-27 13:47:24 <gmaxwell> TD: People don't believe them / don't care.
 998 2013-06-27 13:48:03 <gmaxwell> And if you try to impress on them the nuance they just claim we're incompent.
 999 2013-06-27 13:48:28 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1000 2013-06-27 13:48:29 <TD> i know. i've dealt with idiot downstreams before. doesn't matter, the people who need to see the arguments are the end users, not distributors
1001 2013-06-27 13:49:09 agricocb has joined
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1006 2013-06-27 13:50:14 <gmaxwell> At least tests wouldn't get patched out, and we could _catch_ some amounts of crap breaking out from under us.  Making them patch out a warning would also at least make it clear where the blame lies when it blows up people (see how debian took all the flak and openssl took none when debian patched out freeking undefined behavior incorrectly and even sent the patches to an openssl mailing list, and broke the rng)
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1009 2013-06-27 13:52:59 <BW^-> TD: the version 1/2 thing is that the one spoken about on http://mineforeman.com/2013/03/19/version-1-bitcoin-blocks-will-soon-be-orphaned/ ?
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1011 2013-06-27 13:53:38 <TD> probably, guessing from the url :)
1012 2013-06-27 13:53:59 <BW^-> aha
1013 2013-06-27 13:54:05 <BW^-> td: do you have any plans on going version 2?
1014 2013-06-27 13:54:27 <BW^-> i mean, how big of an update is needed for it?
1015 2013-06-27 13:54:46 _milone has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1016 2013-06-27 13:55:02 <TD> it's not a big change and we have no plans to do that soon. we're working on other things
1017 2013-06-27 13:55:04 <BlueMatt> no, its quite a small update
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1021 2013-06-27 13:56:24 <BW^-> ok cool
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1038 2013-06-27 14:09:49 <BW^-> TD: will you make a  -sources.jar file of latest bitcoinj? there's for 0.8 til now
1039 2013-06-27 14:09:56 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1040 2013-06-27 14:11:20 Subo1978_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1041 2013-06-27 14:12:04 <BW^-> bluematt: the channels, what is the practical utility there, that you create a transaction of X BTC and can then easily regulate what Y% of it should actually be considered committed?
1042 2013-06-27 14:13:01 <BlueMatt> sort of, yes
1043 2013-06-27 14:13:29 <BlueMatt> you commit X BTC then incrementally increase the Y% as you need more
1044 2013-06-27 14:13:42 <BlueMatt> useful for paying for anything that is pay-as-you-go
1045 2013-06-27 14:14:04 <BlueMatt> remove ads on the internet? open payment channel to ad server, pay fractions of bitcents per ad and they go away
1046 2013-06-27 14:14:15 Subo1978 has joined
1047 2013-06-27 14:14:21 <BlueMatt> need to buy cell minutes? incrementally pay fractions of bitcents per minute
1048 2013-06-27 14:15:34 hookercookerman has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1055 2013-06-27 14:23:17 <gmaxwell> I can't find this "94933c3" that freebsd claims to be shipping anywhere. It's not googling, its not reflog on my checkouts.
1056 2013-06-27 14:23:33 cc_8 has joined
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1058 2013-06-27 14:25:59 <TD> BW^-: no. the right way to get bitcoinj is install git, clone the repo and then run the command in my announcement emails. this way you have some guarantee of source integrity.
1059 2013-06-27 14:25:59 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1060 2013-06-27 14:26:05 <BW^-> bluematt: great.  how do you do that technically, without clogging the blockchain with all these increments?
1061 2013-06-27 14:26:08 <TD> BW^-: of course it's best if you verify the signatures on my emails too
1062 2013-06-27 14:26:18 <TD> BW^-: please refer to the documentation for how it works. it's all explained there.
1063 2013-06-27 14:26:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: some private copy with their patches?
1064 2013-06-27 14:27:14 <BlueMatt> BW^-: thats the point, the increments dont go in the blockchain
1065 2013-06-27 14:27:40 <TD> BW^-: so alexanders code for the block explorer is actually not integrated with bitcoinj, he built on top of it in clojure and built up the database contents himself.
1066 2013-06-27 14:28:06 <BW^-> td: what's the documentaiton URL with the GIT URL and other instructions for being up to date with the source?
1067 2013-06-27 14:28:20 <TD> see the "Using bitcoinj with Maven" article on the website
1068 2013-06-27 14:28:28 <TD> (there's a theme developing here..... ;)
1069 2013-06-27 14:28:33 daybyter has joined
1070 2013-06-27 14:28:42 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: in IRC logs the freebsd packager seems to be claiming to have gotten that hash from github: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/06/09#l7616758
1071 2013-06-27 14:29:07 <TD> man in the middle!
1072 2013-06-27 14:29:53 <sipa> *that* explains why they're so insisting on using SF...
1073 2013-06-27 14:30:13 <BW^-> td: warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout.
1074 2013-06-27 14:30:13 <BW^-> hm
1075 2013-06-27 14:30:23 <TD> what command did you run?
1076 2013-06-27 14:30:30 <BW^-> git clone https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/bitcoinj
1077 2013-06-27 14:30:35 <BW^-> git version 1.5.6
1078 2013-06-27 14:30:38 <BW^-> aha too old maybe
1079 2013-06-27 14:30:52 <TD> no
1080 2013-06-27 14:30:57 <TD> there's a space in the command that you dropped
1081 2013-06-27 14:31:04 <TD> look at the instructions carefully or copy/paste
1082 2013-06-27 14:31:10 <TD> git clone https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/ bitcoinj
1083 2013-06-27 14:31:11 <BW^-> td: i did, it gave the same then!
1084 2013-06-27 14:31:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: do you have a 94933c3 in your reflog output?
1085 2013-06-27 14:31:19 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1086 2013-06-27 14:31:23 <TD> see the space before the last bitcoinj?
1087 2013-06-27 14:31:26 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell/sipa: for some reason I remember the folder name which github serves up in their tars to not actually be a git commit
1088 2013-06-27 14:31:30 <BlueMatt> (despite looking like one)
1089 2013-06-27 14:31:33 <BW^-> td: yes, i tried it first. it has the same effect:
1090 2013-06-27 14:31:37 <BW^-> $ git clone  https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/ bitcoinj
1091 2013-06-27 14:31:39 <BW^-> Initialize bitcoinj/.git
1092 2013-06-27 14:31:44 <BW^-> Initialized empty Git repository in /home/user/bitcoinj/.git/
1093 2013-06-27 14:31:47 <BW^-> warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout.
1094 2013-06-27 14:31:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: any idea what it is?
1095 2013-06-27 14:32:17 <BlueMatt> hmm, git show 94933c3 shows a signed 0.8.2 tag
1096 2013-06-27 14:32:28 <BlueMatt> didnt verify, but looks ok?
1097 2013-06-27 14:32:29 <Luke-Jr> ^
1098 2013-06-27 14:32:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ah so I bet he originally wrote that port from just looking at the git history and then it didn't work... because the field isn't really the comment, its the path used inside the tar?
1099 2013-06-27 14:32:35 <TD> huh
1100 2013-06-27 14:32:38 <TD> let me try
1101 2013-06-27 14:32:45 skinnkavaj has joined
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1104 2013-06-27 14:32:48 <gmaxwell> oh it's the signature and I never pulled the signed tags?
1105 2013-06-27 14:32:54 <BW^-> td: sure, if it works for you i should just update git
1106 2013-06-27 14:32:57 <BlueMatt> no idea, but I see it
1107 2013-06-27 14:33:16 <TD> BW^-: yeah it worked for me .... try updating git indeed
1108 2013-06-27 14:33:19 <gmaxwell> well that makes perfect sense.
1109 2013-06-27 14:33:22 <BlueMatt> so, yes, the folder name is not the name of the commit which was tagged, but the tag itself
1110 2013-06-27 14:33:23 <TD> i have version 1.8.3
1111 2013-06-27 14:34:20 <BW^-> td: is there any alternative GIT repo URL? like, ssh- or git:// based?
1112 2013-06-27 14:34:31 <TD> no. but that one should work.
1113 2013-06-27 14:34:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, as v0.8.2
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1122 2013-06-27 14:41:13 <BW^-> td: you mentioned something like that doing a full block chain index in bitcoinj's fully verifying mode would be fine while you don't recommend using it to do transactions - would the potential issue here only be if there's bugs causing a chain split?
1123 2013-06-27 14:41:31 <BW^-> i mean, with at least 90% probability the issue would be
1124 2013-06-27 14:42:19 <TD> well, yeah.
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1126 2013-06-27 14:42:26 <TD> i suppose we could support indexing without verification
1127 2013-06-27 14:42:31 <TD> but it's not supported today
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1130 2013-06-27 14:42:48 <sipa> it'd be nice to be able to have a maintained/queryable UTXO set without doing verification
1131 2013-06-27 14:42:48 arthurb_ has joined
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1136 2013-06-27 14:46:34 <helo> if someone (a competing miner?) publishes proof that a utxo root in a block is invalid, then the block is invalid?
1137 2013-06-27 14:46:56 <michagogo> How many hashes on average does it take to find a testnet block?
1138 2013-06-27 14:47:16 <sipa> michagogo: 2^32 * difficulty
1139 2013-06-27 14:47:27 <michagogo> Also: are they coming out on average every 10 minutes?
1140 2013-06-27 14:47:30 <sipa> yes
1141 2013-06-27 14:47:37 <michagogo> What's the current difficulty?
1142 2013-06-27 14:48:33 <michagogo> ;;calc 2^32*240.48507088
1143 2013-06-27 14:48:34 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
1144 2013-06-27 14:48:40 <michagogo> What?
1145 2013-06-27 14:48:48 <michagogo> ;;calc 2**32*240.48507088
1146 2013-06-27 14:48:48 <gribble> 1.03287551461e+12
1147 2013-06-27 14:49:20 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1148 2013-06-27 14:49:41 <michagogo> So just over a terahash
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1152 2013-06-27 14:51:51 <BlueMatt> use regtest mode
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1158 2013-06-27 14:56:01 <TD> interesting. it looks like the blockchain.info android app now supports SPV mode as well, toggleable by the user
1159 2013-06-27 14:56:11 <BW^-> td: upgrading GIT worked, gr8!
1160 2013-06-27 14:56:15 <TD> sweet
1161 2013-06-27 14:56:24 <BlueMatt> TD: wonder if they reimplemented all the crap to do it themselves...
1162 2013-06-27 14:56:28 <BlueMatt> or bop of bitcoinj
1163 2013-06-27 14:56:53 <TD> it's on top of bitcoinj
1164 2013-06-27 14:57:01 <BlueMatt> ahh, nice
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1166 2013-06-27 14:57:09 <TD> it basically has a global isInP2PFallbackMode() that splits between using their API and using bitcoinj
1167 2013-06-27 14:57:23 <TD> they give a speed warning when it starts saying it'll take a long time to sync, which is odd.
1168 2013-06-27 14:57:35 <TD> because it's not actually slow anymore. but i guess he isn't doing the sync at night trick
1169 2013-06-27 14:58:02 <michagogo> ;;gentime 25 240.48507088
1170 2013-06-27 14:58:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 25.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 240.48507088, is 11 hours, 28 minutes, and 35 seconds
1171 2013-06-27 14:58:20 <TD> and maybe he's not using checkpoints. anyway ....
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1173 2013-06-27 15:00:09 <BW^-> td,bluematt: how was the development of bitcoinj until now - what were major challenges?
1174 2013-06-27 15:00:17 <TD> it's >2.5 years of work
1175 2013-06-27 15:00:38 <BlueMatt> its essentially TD, I wrote most of the full verification stuff
1176 2013-06-27 15:00:40 <TD> most of the challenge has been killing off all the edge case bugs and making it fast. nobody did SPV mode except us, so we had to extend the bitcoin protocol
1177 2013-06-27 15:00:46 <BlueMatt> and there have been various other contributors
1178 2013-06-27 15:00:50 <TD> which BlueMatt did a lot of work on
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1180 2013-06-27 15:01:00 <BW^-> cool
1181 2013-06-27 15:01:15 <BW^-> how many man-months do you believe you have given to it in total?
1182 2013-06-27 15:01:18 <BW^-> just to get an idea
1183 2013-06-27 15:01:27 <BW^-> i mean, this says something important about the level of complexity of the matter
1184 2013-06-27 15:01:48 <BW^-> 43klocs is very fair considering what kind of program it is
1185 2013-06-27 15:01:54 HM2 has joined
1186 2013-06-27 15:02:05 <BW^-> still in the readable zone, that's awesome
1187 2013-06-27 15:02:13 <BW^-> and key
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1189 2013-06-27 15:03:31 <HM2> Does anyone know what Crypto++'s CascadeMultiply function actually does? Takes 2 EC Points and 2 Ints by const&, returns a point. the code behind it is quite lengthy
1190 2013-06-27 15:03:59 <sipa> HM2: I assume n1*P1 + n2*P2
1191 2013-06-27 15:04:19 <sipa> (which can be done faster than two separate multiplication + an addition)
1192 2013-06-27 15:04:20 Subo1978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1193 2013-06-27 15:04:25 <HM2> Ah, that makes sense
1194 2013-06-27 15:04:56 RazielZ has joined
1195 2013-06-27 15:05:20 <BW^-> td: ^ that was for you :))
1196 2013-06-27 15:05:40 milone_ has joined
1197 2013-06-27 15:05:44 <TD> probably a few years in total
1198 2013-06-27 15:06:18 <HM2> thanks sipa, i was thrown off. it looks like the double-and-add logic has been inlined in to that routine, probably to take advantage of the optimised method
1199 2013-06-27 15:06:22 <michagogo> Oh
1200 2013-06-27 15:06:26 <BW^-> wow cool.
1201 2013-06-27 15:06:48 <michagogo> ;;gentime 25 120.24253544
1202 2013-06-27 15:06:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 25.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 120.24253544, is 5 hours, 44 minutes, and 17 seconds
1203 2013-06-27 15:07:49 agnostic98 has joined
1204 2013-06-27 15:08:23 <TD> elqnt.org is an interesting approach
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1210 2013-06-27 15:12:31 <michagogo> Does anyone know of any patches for bitcoin that disable the relaying of transactions?
1211 2013-06-27 15:13:14 <sipa> just put a "return;" in net.cpp's RelayTransaction :)
1212 2013-06-27 15:13:43 <HM2> TD: I dunno, it's certainly nicer for global users, but it's easier locally to input a town or zip code to find local parties.
1213 2013-06-27 15:14:01 <TD> yeah. i meant, abusing webrtc to build a p2p app in the browser is interesting
1214 2013-06-27 15:14:11 <TD> you still have the issue that updates aren't really controlled and it's chrome/firefox only of course
1215 2013-06-27 15:14:18 <TD> might as well just write a desktop app at some point
1216 2013-06-27 15:14:55 <michagogo> sipa: It looks like there are 2 of them
1217 2013-06-27 15:14:55 <HM2> So there's no server side db of exchangers?
1218 2013-06-27 15:15:07 <TD> apparently not. i'm not sure how it works
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1221 2013-06-27 15:15:37 <HM2> Doing the region joins in a p2p fashion would complicate matters
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1223 2013-06-27 15:20:57 <michagogo> sipa: Which one? Or both?
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1230 2013-06-27 15:26:08 <sipa> michagogo: which one?
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1232 2013-06-27 15:26:16 <sipa> ah, one forwards to the other
1233 2013-06-27 15:26:33 <michagogo> BTW, how does that work? Having two functions with the same name?
1234 2013-06-27 15:26:40 <forrestv> are bitcoin protocol implementations supposed to ignore trailing data in the payload of messages?
1235 2013-06-27 15:27:08 <sipa> forrestv: yes
1236 2013-06-27 15:27:09 <forrestv> (assuming yes because of the new fRelay stuff, but i'd never read that in any specification)
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1241 2013-06-27 15:29:49 <michagogo> sipa: So, which one?
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1245 2013-06-27 15:30:15 <michagogo> Also, why are there 2?
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1247 2013-06-27 15:35:02 <HM2> sipa, how's your ultra optimised EC library coming?
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1257 2013-06-27 15:39:57 <gavinandresen> HM2: are you asking just because you're curious, or are you running into a situation where speed of ECC is the bottleneck?
1258 2013-06-27 15:41:53 <HM2> curiousity
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1263 2013-06-27 15:53:01 <imd23> hey
1264 2013-06-27 15:53:17 <imd23> can someone help me explaining the escrow contract ?
1265 2013-06-27 15:53:18 <imd23> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_2%3a_Escrow_and_dispute_mediation
1266 2013-06-27 15:53:22 <imd23> I don't get it :(
1267 2013-06-27 15:54:08 <TD> sure, what's the issue
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1272 2013-06-27 15:58:46 <imd23> TD: awesome. 1) is it currently possible to use it in the network 2) what's this for "The merchant challenges the mediator with a random nonce" ?
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1275 2013-06-27 15:59:15 <TD> yes, the 2-of-3 multisig script is whitelisted
1276 2013-06-27 15:59:25 <TD> it's to make sure that the mediator owns the key the client claims it does
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1279 2013-06-27 16:00:00 <michagogo> I'm trying to follow https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-msw.md
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1282 2013-06-27 16:01:01 <michagogo> But getting an error: http://pastebin.com/cKTscWDB
1283 2013-06-27 16:01:13 <jgarzik> mornin'
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1285 2013-06-27 16:02:11 <michagogo> (fresh MinGW/MSYS installation)
1286 2013-06-27 16:03:56 <imd23> TD: can you elaborate how does this work? I still don't get it I don't know why
1287 2013-06-27 16:04:45 <jgarzik> td, BlueMatt: the micropayment channels demo is very cool stuff
1288 2013-06-27 16:04:55 <jgarzik> I'll have to reimplement it in a language I like
1289 2013-06-27 16:04:56 * jgarzik runs
1290 2013-06-27 16:05:02 <TD> or compile it to a language you like
1291 2013-06-27 16:05:05 <TD> (not C)
1292 2013-06-27 16:05:07 <TD> (nobody likes C)
1293 2013-06-27 16:05:31 <HM2> imd23, the mediator has to prove it's who both parties think it is, otherwise one party could pose as the mediator and gain access to the funds
1294 2013-06-27 16:05:48 <TD> imd23: yeah it's a step required for security, to stop the buyer screwing the seller
1295 2013-06-27 16:05:56 <HM2> it's a bit like a certificate chain but less fancy
1296 2013-06-27 16:06:02 <TD> jgarzik: i'm trying to resurrect the native compilation stuff so bcj is usable from C++
1297 2013-06-27 16:06:15 <TD> jgarzik: unfortunately gcj isn't that great .... some serious black magic is required to make it work :(
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1299 2013-06-27 16:08:06 <jgarzik> TD, indeed.  More seriously, I poked a lot with Java, many years ago.  Worked at a company that produced TowerJ, then the fastest static Java compiler in existence.  Spent lots of time looking at gcj code at the time.  Worked on the Kaffe codebase (remember that?) a decade ago, too.
1300 2013-06-27 16:08:38 <TD> i never heard of TowerJ but i always thought java should have emphasised static compilation
1301 2013-06-27 16:09:01 <TD> JIT compilers are one of those ideas that never seemed to work out that well .... but then i guess all the fancy reflection and code synthesis tricks kids these days like wouldn't work
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1303 2013-06-27 16:10:09 <jgarzik> TD, anybody doing server side Java seriously used TowerJ :)  Performed metric tons of analysis, once the whole scope of the classbase (the set of classes one compiled entity will need) is known.  Many more optimizations than gcj.  Java works great statically compiled.  Even had JNI interface working and other fun.
1304 2013-06-27 16:10:34 <TD> yeah, i am not expecting any performance improvements. i'm just interested in CNI
1305 2013-06-27 16:10:42 <TD> it's the Right Way(tm) to do integration with native code, imo
1306 2013-06-27 16:10:50 <TD> JNI is very neutral and portable but rather unpleasant to use
1307 2013-06-27 16:10:51 <jgarzik> indeed
1308 2013-06-27 16:11:06 <imd23> TD HM2: cool, thanks for explaining me that, and about the cryptographically part, I don't get that too. How does it cryptographically happen
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1310 2013-06-27 16:11:32 <TD> imd23: a nonce is a random number, literally a number-used-once. so the server invents a random number and sends it to the mediator, and the mediator calculates a digital signature and returns it
1311 2013-06-27 16:11:38 <TD> the seller checks it and it passes
1312 2013-06-27 16:11:49 <TD> now the seller knows the mediator owns the private key corresponding to the public key that the client is wanting to use
1313 2013-06-27 16:12:17 <TD> so it can be secure in knowing that everything is as it should be
1314 2013-06-27 16:12:23 <TD> the random number is just so the mediator has something to sign
1315 2013-06-27 16:14:03 <HM2> the mediator shouldn't use the key for anything else
1316 2013-06-27 16:14:14 <HM2> otherwise you could potentially have it sign anything
1317 2013-06-27 16:14:20 <michagogo> I can't seem to get https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-msw.md to work
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1319 2013-06-27 16:14:42 <michagogo> I got the OpenSSL part to work, but all the other parts are failing
1320 2013-06-27 16:14:47 <michagogo> (the prereqs, that is)
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1324 2013-06-27 16:16:30 <denisx> good news for germans, bitcoins are taxfree if you had them longer than a year
1325 2013-06-27 16:16:35 <denisx> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Bundestag-Bitcoinverkaeufe-nach-Haltefrist-steuerfrei-1897814.html
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1329 2013-06-27 16:16:57 <denisx> the article is only in german, sorry
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1333 2013-06-27 16:17:24 <jMyles> Anybody else trying to use the makemigrations command in 1.6?  It fails if a field has a lazy verbose name.
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1354 2013-06-27 16:29:05 <imd23> TD & HM2 Thank you! you guys rock
1355 2013-06-27 16:30:15 <lianj> denisx: nice its kinda validated now, but was known for some time already
1356 2013-06-27 16:30:50 <denisx> lianj: I never heard of it before, but nice it is
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1365 2013-06-27 16:35:45 <BW^-> td: around?
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1378 2013-06-27 16:48:00 <sipa> HM2: haven't had time for it recently, but soon i will
1379 2013-06-27 16:49:14 <sipa> michagogo: one calls the other, read about function overloading
1380 2013-06-27 16:49:24 <sipa> michagogo: change the one which is the lowest
1381 2013-06-27 16:49:32 <sipa> michagogo: i.e, the one which is called by the other
1382 2013-06-27 16:49:34 <michagogo> So, the second, longer one?
1383 2013-06-27 16:49:49 <sipa> don't know the order, but likely the longer one yes
1384 2013-06-27 16:50:04 <michagogo> Also, I fear the point may be moot because I can't figure out how to build it
1385 2013-06-27 16:50:13 <sipa> that's a first step :D
1386 2013-06-27 16:50:31 <sipa> which OS, and bitcoind or bitcoin-qt?
1387 2013-06-27 16:52:56 patcon has joined
1388 2013-06-27 16:53:08 <HM2> sipa, i see asm commits, looks very clean and polished now.
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1392 2013-06-27 16:54:12 <sipa> HM2: there's an experimental 5x64 field implementation, but it can't beat 5x52 anywhere, it seems
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1394 2013-06-27 16:55:24 <michagogo> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-msw.md
1395 2013-06-27 16:55:42 <michagogo> I installed MinGW, and the openssl step seems to have worked
1396 2013-06-27 16:55:49 <michagogo> But none of the other prereqs are building
1397 2013-06-27 16:56:04 <sipa> if you need to build on windows, i hope you have a few hours/days to figure everything out
1398 2013-06-27 16:56:26 <sipa> for me, it'd certainly be faster to install a linux distro and then do a cross-compile to windows
1399 2013-06-27 16:56:42 <sipa> (but there are people who do native windows builds)
1400 2013-06-27 16:56:43 <michagogo> It's just a pain to reboot into Ubuntu
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1402 2013-06-27 16:57:25 <sipa> note that i haven't used windows as a main OS for 12 years now, so i may be slightly biased
1403 2013-06-27 16:57:28 <HM2> sipa, what you want is an built in benchmark that can swap them out dynamically
1404 2013-06-27 16:57:39 <sipa> HM2: too complex
1405 2013-06-27 16:57:43 <HM2> :P
1406 2013-06-27 16:57:57 <michagogo> Hm, I remember that there was a reason that I couldn't use an Ubuntu VM to build
1407 2013-06-27 16:58:00 <sipa> and also not worth it, it can be decided at compile time which is faster
1408 2013-06-27 16:58:05 <michagogo> But I don't remember what that reason was
1409 2013-06-27 16:58:39 <sipa> in any case, can't help you for windows builds
1410 2013-06-27 16:59:19 <michagogo> Oh, wait a minute.
1411 2013-06-27 16:59:21 * michagogo facepalms
1412 2013-06-27 16:59:34 <michagogo> The reason I couldn't use a VM was because that was for gitian building
1413 2013-06-27 16:59:44 DoctorBTC is now known as Crontaur_
1414 2013-06-27 16:59:44 <michagogo> And gitian building happens within a VM
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1416 2013-06-27 17:01:31 <HM2> sipa, perhaps on some platforms you can make it more automatic. GCC supports the target function attribute, for instance,  that lets you swap out function versions at compile time based on CPU features like sse4.2 etc
1417 2013-06-27 17:02:19 <HM2> of course that'd require figuring out on what CPUs one field impl is faster than the other
1418 2013-06-27 17:02:24 <sipa> HM2: it mostly depends on configuration... things like do you have yasm, which optimization level, is it x86_64, ...
1419 2013-06-27 17:02:35 <sipa> using gmp or openssl
1420 2013-06-27 17:04:12 <sipa> but right now, the question is mostly whether there is any platform where an optimal build of 5x52 is slower than an optimal build of 5x64
1421 2013-06-27 17:04:18 <sipa> if not, i can drop 5x64 entirely
1422 2013-06-27 17:04:27 <sipa> much less maintenance work
1423 2013-06-27 17:04:42 <gmaxwell> HM2: thats just a nusance compared to doing normal RTCD and having a table of function pointers. :P
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1425 2013-06-27 17:05:03 <HM2> sure, but as long as you're not dispatching through a fp in a hot loop you're fine
1426 2013-06-27 17:05:19 <gmaxwell> how do you think the GCC support works? ...
1427 2013-06-27 17:05:25 <gmaxwell> (which, incidentally, is C++ only)
1428 2013-06-27 17:05:50 <HM2> actually i just read that the target attribute isn't what i said, it changes -march on a per-function basis
1429 2013-06-27 17:06:14 <HM2> i was thinking of the __builtin runtime checks for cpu detection they introduced recently
1430 2013-06-27 17:06:22 <HM2> you still have to do dispatch yourself, sadly
1431 2013-06-27 17:07:56 <gmaxwell> nah, they have C++ only dispatching stuff but, meh.
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1433 2013-06-27 17:09:28 <gmaxwell> __attribute__ ((target ("sse4.2")))
1434 2013-06-27 17:09:43 <HM2> I don't know why the linker couldn't handle it for C. I guess you'd lose portability
1435 2013-06-27 17:10:01 <sipa> my guess is that it's not the linker that resolves it
1436 2013-06-27 17:10:22 <sipa> but you get different mangled symbol names, and they are resolved by the compiler?
1437 2013-06-27 17:10:22 <gmaxwell> I'd assumed it was, I haven't looked.
1438 2013-06-27 17:11:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: you're right.
1439 2013-06-27 17:12:25 <gmaxwell> It inserts a stub that checks and then dispatches.
1440 2013-06-27 17:12:57 <HM2> that makes no sense
1441 2013-06-27 17:13:41 <HM2> " It is up to the user to make sure that a function is only invoked on a machine that supports the particular ISA it is compiled for"
1442 2013-06-27 17:14:16 <gmaxwell> HM2: I assume thats wrt your arch flag pragmas?
1443 2013-06-27 17:15:54 <gmaxwell> for something small like sipas code, it would be pretty reasonable to just compile it N ways and let the linker resolve it. At least on linux there is linker support for switching out whole shared libraries based on arch.
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1451 2013-06-27 17:26:01 <HM2> there's no runtime cpu detection with the target attribute, or additional mangling
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1453 2013-06-27 17:28:50 <gmaxwell> HM2: uh.
1454 2013-06-27 17:28:59 <gmaxwell> HM2: http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/FunctionMultiVersioning
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1459 2013-06-27 17:31:06 <HM2> hmm
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1461 2013-06-27 17:31:49 <michagogo> sipa: Is there a doc somewhere for cross-compiling for Windows on Ubuntu?
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1464 2013-06-27 17:32:43 <HM2> gmaxwell, ah
1465 2013-06-27 17:32:59 <gmaxwell> (though I dunno why I'm lecturing you on a feature I think isn't terribly useful!)
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1467 2013-06-27 17:33:04 <HM2> gmaxwell, it only works when you add the target attribute to *all* functions
1468 2013-06-27 17:33:46 <HM2> (with the same sig)
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1471 2013-06-27 17:37:23 <HM2> yeah it's not terribly useful for x86_64 code, since all x64 support up to SSE2 (?) anyway
1472 2013-06-27 17:38:08 <HM2> useful for -m32 code for sure though
1473 2013-06-27 17:39:16 <michagogo> Is there a document somewhere with instructions for using Ubuntu to compile bitcoind for Windows?
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1479 2013-06-27 17:45:02 <gmaxwell> HM2: nah, they went ahead and fragmented x86_64 almost as soon as it was done, SSE3/SSE4/SSE4.2/AVX/AVX2. plus a bunch of intel vs amd fine distinguishing bits.
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1489 2013-06-27 17:54:50 <BW^-> bluematt: around?
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1493 2013-06-27 17:57:05 <HM2> gmaxwell, so why don't you think it's terribly useful?
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1500 2013-06-27 18:03:52 <nsh> ;;seen petertodd
1501 2013-06-27 18:03:53 <gribble> petertodd was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 days, 5 hours, 39 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <petertodd> gmaxwell: shit, actually that's just a gossip network where fraud messages are propagated too all cliques... someone will make one of those one day
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1507 2013-06-27 18:09:08 <michagogo> Does a set of instructions exist for using Ubuntu to cross-compile bitcoind for Windows?
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1511 2013-06-27 18:13:41 <nsh> 1. Good luck.
1512 2013-06-27 18:13:54 <nsh> (no idea, sorry)
1513 2013-06-27 18:14:12 <nsh> discussed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=203749.0
1514 2013-06-27 18:14:27 bbbrian has joined
1515 2013-06-27 18:14:34 <nsh> last post recommends using gitian, which is the long form of "Good luck."
1516 2013-06-27 18:16:13 <michagogo> nsh: I'm able to build in gitian if I get out my external harddrive
1517 2013-06-27 18:16:32 <michagogo> But I don't actually know anything about how it works or how to change things
1518 2013-06-27 18:16:33 <nsh> can you not do it in a loopback device or something?
1519 2013-06-27 18:16:46 * nsh has not even looked at gitian, just observed a lot of complaints :)
1520 2013-06-27 18:16:50 <michagogo> I'd like to figure out how to build in a VM
1521 2013-06-27 18:17:04 <nsh> right, i recall a discussion to that end
1522 2013-06-27 18:17:12 <michagogo> And I can't use gitian in a VM because it uses a VM itself
1523 2013-06-27 18:17:26 <michagogo> Meaning it needs hardware virtualization
1524 2013-06-27 18:17:36 <nsh> hardware virtualization can be simulated, i'd assume
1525 2013-06-27 18:17:54 <nsh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_machine#Emulation_of_the_underlying_raw_hardware_.28native_execution.29
1526 2013-06-27 18:17:58 <nsh> nope
1527 2013-06-27 18:18:33 <nsh> hmm, maybe it's not been done
1528 2013-06-27 18:19:09 <devrandom> michagogo: it's possible in principle to have recursive virtualization
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1532 2013-06-27 18:19:27 <michagogo> devrandom: I'm told it would be extremely slow
1533 2013-06-27 18:19:31 <devrandom> Luke-Jr might know details
1534 2013-06-27 18:19:35 <devrandom> not necessarily
1535 2013-06-27 18:19:52 <devrandom> I believe some CPUs support fully accelerated recursive VMs
1536 2013-06-27 18:20:11 <michagogo> Is the Intel Core i7-3610QM one of those?
1537 2013-06-27 18:20:12 <devrandom> another thing you can do is LXC Gitian within a VM
1538 2013-06-27 18:20:16 <devrandom> I don't know
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1541 2013-06-27 18:20:58 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: fully accelerated recursive VMs is still pretty slow
1542 2013-06-27 18:21:01 mollison has joined
1543 2013-06-27 18:21:06 <Luke-Jr> obviously it could be slower, but still
1544 2013-06-27 18:21:42 <devrandom> is it more like 2x, or 100x?
1545 2013-06-27 18:22:17 <Luke-Jr> I'd say 25x
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1547 2013-06-27 18:22:57 <michagogo> ^C01[2013-05-23 20:55:13] <michagogo> If I understand this correctly, gitian externally manages a VM that it runs, correct?
1548 2013-06-27 18:22:57 <michagogo> ^C01[2013-05-23 20:55:32] <michagogo> So the system you run gitian on needs virtualization support?
1549 2013-06-27 18:22:57 <michagogo> [2013-05-23 20:55:59] <gavinandresen> michagogo: yes, otherwise it is beastly slow
1550 2013-06-27 18:23:29 <michagogo> ^C01[2013-05-23 20:58:13] <michagogo> gavinandresen: How slow is "beastly slow"?
1551 2013-06-27 18:23:29 <michagogo> [2013-05-23 20:59:16] <gavinandresen> michagogo: uhhh… a day to complete a build beastly-slow….
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1553 2013-06-27 18:24:35 <devrandom> michagogo: so how about using LXC?  that doesn't require any virtualization support
1554 2013-06-27 18:24:58 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: that's without hw accel
1555 2013-06-27 18:24:58 <michagogo> LXC?
1556 2013-06-27 18:25:27 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1557 2013-06-27 18:25:31 <devrandom> grep for LXC in the gitian-tools source
1558 2013-06-27 18:25:43 <Luke-Jr> I'm pretty sure anything i7 has hw accel virt
1559 2013-06-27 18:26:21 <devrandom> michagogo: running LXC inside a VM should be full speed
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1561 2013-06-27 18:26:37 <devrandom> you probably want the VM to be a recent Ubuntu
1562 2013-06-27 18:27:02 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: did you guys have any issues with LXC?
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1564 2013-06-27 18:27:23 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: I'm too scared to try LXC <.<
1565 2013-06-27 18:27:31 <Luke-Jr> it still seems too immature
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1567 2013-06-27 18:28:02 <devrandom> I haven't run into any issues
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1569 2013-06-27 18:28:09 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: but you're using Ubuntu
1570 2013-06-27 18:28:14 <devrandom> although the tor people had some non-determinism due to hostname and such
1571 2013-06-27 18:29:13 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Right, but I thought Virtualbox doesn't emulate hardware virtualization support
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1573 2013-06-27 18:30:04 <devrandom> michagogo: LXC is a lightweight "container", that actually runs in the same address space as the host, so it doesn't require HW support
1574 2013-06-27 18:30:12 <devrandom> it should run fine inside a Virtualbox Ubuntu instance
1575 2013-06-27 18:31:14 <gavinandresen> LXC builds were non-deterministic for me when I tried them… oh, 6 or 8 months ago
1576 2013-06-27 18:31:47 <devrandom> I see
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1579 2013-06-27 18:32:07 <gavinandresen> if you don't care about determinism (just want to cross-compile) then LXC would probably work great
1580 2013-06-27 18:33:29 <devrandom> gavinandresen: would it be useful if I tracked down the non-determinism issue?
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1583 2013-06-27 18:34:14 <gavinandresen> devrandom: sure, but only mildly useful-- KVM and VirtualBox are working nicely
1584 2013-06-27 18:34:39 <devrandom> OK
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1587 2013-06-27 18:35:35 <nsh> it seems this deterministic-build problem is more thorny than i had naively apprehended
1588 2013-06-27 18:35:51 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: are you using Windows or Mac or something? Why Virtualbox?
1589 2013-06-27 18:35:54 <runeks> With regards to micro-payments channels, is there any mechanism that prevents the client from double spending the coins? Like finishing the encounter by sending out a new transactions that sends all the coins back to himself by providing a transaction with a higher fee?
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1591 2013-06-27 18:36:02 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: I'm using Windows
1592 2013-06-27 18:36:03 <devrandom> nsh: the Tor people spent 6 weeks to get the tor bundle deterministic
1593 2013-06-27 18:36:18 <devrandom> with firefox etc
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1595 2013-06-27 18:36:20 <nsh> yeah, they're not exactly PHP coders either
1596 2013-06-27 18:36:25 <devrandom> right
1597 2013-06-27 18:36:57 <devrandom> but I think once we collect some wisdom about non-determinism sources, things can be smoother for other packages
1598 2013-06-27 18:37:03 * nsh nods
1599 2013-06-27 18:37:23 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: My goal is to figure out how to mine a testnet block, while including a transaction that's been kept off of the network
1600 2013-06-27 18:37:43 <nsh> interesting michagogo... to what end?
1601 2013-06-27 18:37:47 <michagogo> In other words, not broadcasting it at all until it's been part of a block
1602 2013-06-27 18:37:56 <michagogo> nsh: Idk, just an interesting challenge
1603 2013-06-27 18:38:07 <nsh> right
1604 2013-06-27 18:38:25 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: sipa says I should modify bitcoin, putting return; in RelayTransaction in net.cpp
1605 2013-06-27 18:38:34 <sipa> you don't have to!
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1607 2013-06-27 18:38:35 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: tbh, I'm inclined to (if I had time) hack Gentoo so it's 100% deterministic <.<
1608 2013-06-27 18:38:36 <michagogo> That means figuring out how to build.
1609 2013-06-27 18:38:42 <michagogo> sipa: How ele could I do it?
1610 2013-06-27 18:38:44 <sipa> but you asked how to not relay transactions
1611 2013-06-27 18:38:52 <sipa> ... also, why the hell do you want that?
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1613 2013-06-27 18:39:06 <michagogo> sipa: I'm trying to figure out how to get it done
1614 2013-06-27 18:39:11 <michagogo> No real reason, just a challenge
1615 2013-06-27 18:39:14 <sipa> ok
1616 2013-06-27 18:39:22 paracyst has joined
1617 2013-06-27 18:40:17 <michagogo> sipa: I mean, is there a better I can mine a non-broadcasted transaction besides figuring out how to make a non-relaying bitcoind?
1618 2013-06-27 18:40:25 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: that would be great, if you want to distribute binaries, but since Gentoo is a source distro, only the bootstrap needs to be deterministic, right?
1619 2013-06-27 18:40:30 <michagogo> better way*
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1621 2013-06-27 18:42:01 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: Gentoo optionally builds binaries for everything it compiles
1622 2013-06-27 18:42:15 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: my goal would be to do p2p verified compiling
1623 2013-06-27 18:42:33 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: so each object would be compared for N trusted signatures or something
1624 2013-06-27 18:42:58 <nsh> Luke-Jr, i think we need to kidnap Eli Ben-Sasson for a few weeks of intense interrogation
1625 2013-06-27 18:43:06 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: so people sometimes get binaries instead of compile from source?
1626 2013-06-27 18:43:07 <nsh> i'm game if you are, but i don't really have a spare-room
1627 2013-06-27 18:43:27 <devrandom> I'm tempted to switch to Gentoo for the source-build feature
1628 2013-06-27 18:43:38 <devrandom> seems much easier to start from a clean slate
1629 2013-06-27 18:43:43 <Luke-Jr> nsh: that might be a good gitian killer :p
1630 2013-06-27 18:43:47 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: right
1631 2013-06-27 18:44:06 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: after a few people build in your web of trust, you'd just use their binaries
1632 2013-06-27 18:44:20 <devrandom> got it
1633 2013-06-27 18:44:25 <Luke-Jr> unless you change a compile flag, then you'd rebuild the files affected or something
1634 2013-06-27 18:46:38 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: I'd be interested in collaborating on that
1635 2013-06-27 18:47:19 <devrandom> it would be nice it if fell back automatically as needed to source compilation
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1637 2013-06-27 18:48:00 <Luke-Jr> well, it's not very high near the top of my todo list :/
1638 2013-06-27 18:48:27 <devrandom> OK
1639 2013-06-27 18:49:14 <michagogo> Is there a way to do what gitian does without a VM?
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1641 2013-06-27 18:49:37 <michagogo> (the building part, not the determinism part)
1642 2013-06-27 18:50:00 <devrandom> whatever it does in the build script, you could run on the host
1643 2013-06-27 18:50:25 <devrandom> assuming it was compatible with the build VM OS
1644 2013-06-27 18:51:50 <sipa> michagogo: submit a pullrequest that changes this, poke BlueMatt that he fixes pulltester, and download the pulltester output :D
1645 2013-06-27 18:52:22 <michagogo> sipa: o_O
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1648 2013-06-27 18:52:40 <michagogo> Does it build for Windows?
1649 2013-06-27 18:52:48 <sipa> yes
1650 2013-06-27 18:52:55 <michagogo> Oooo...kay.....
1651 2013-06-27 18:53:25 <michagogo> ;;later tell BlueMatt Any idea if pulltester will be working any time soon?
1652 2013-06-27 18:53:26 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1653 2013-06-27 19:01:20 jgarzik_ has joined
1654 2013-06-27 19:01:26 <sipa> hello realname
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1664 2013-06-27 19:14:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: doesn't bitcoinj do validation now?
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1666 2013-06-27 19:27:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes it can do validation (it maintains a utxo set and verifies scripts), but some parts are missing (v2 blocks for example) and it doesn't have a mempool
1667 2013-06-27 19:27:40 <Luke-Jr> sounds enough to do simple relaying
1668 2013-06-27 19:28:17 <sipa> only for blocks
1669 2013-06-27 19:28:19 <sipa> but yes
1670 2013-06-27 19:28:19 <nsh> sipa, are v2 blocks described in a BIP?
1671 2013-06-27 19:28:24 <sipa> bip34 iirc
1672 2013-06-27 19:28:28 <nsh> right, ty
1673 2013-06-27 19:28:52 <sipa> then again, i'm not sure about the benefit
1674 2013-06-27 19:29:14 <nsh> picked-from-bottom percentage rules considered nonoptimal
1675 2013-06-27 19:29:24 <sipa> ?
1676 2013-06-27 19:29:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: relaying transactions only needs a mempool, which is trivial
1677 2013-06-27 19:29:37 <nsh> 3. 75% rule: // 4. 95% rule
1678 2013-06-27 19:29:46 <nsh> ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0034 )
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1680 2013-06-27 19:29:55 <sipa> ok
1681 2013-06-27 19:30:04 <sipa> suggestions?
1682 2013-06-27 19:30:49 <nsh> whenever i suggest things the eschaton is immanentized
1683 2013-06-27 19:30:53 <nsh> so i'll duck out
1684 2013-06-27 19:31:00 <sipa> haha
1685 2013-06-27 19:32:59 <nsh> sipa, makes more sense reading gavin's pull note: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1526
1686 2013-06-27 19:33:43 <nsh> probably there's no escaping picking semiarbitrary and somewhat humany numbers like this
1687 2013-06-27 19:34:29 <nsh> it's network transition logic, hmm
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1691 2013-06-27 19:38:49 <michagogo> ;;calc 16**2
1692 2013-06-27 19:38:50 <gribble> 256
1693 2013-06-27 19:38:58 <michagogo> ;;calc 2**16
1694 2013-06-27 19:38:59 <gribble> 65536
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1755 2013-06-27 21:13:11 <skinnkavaj> BlueMatt: Are you the one Mike Hearn is talking about? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=244656.0
1756 2013-06-27 21:15:29 <nsh> Matt Corallo in Launchpad
1757 2013-06-27 21:15:30 <nsh> https://launchpad.net/~bluematt‎
1758 2013-06-27 21:15:30 <nsh> Matt Corallo. Overview; Code · Bugs ... Launchpad Id: bluematt. Email: Log in for email ... IRC: BlueMatt on irc.freenode.net. OpenPGP keys: 43E08E54.
1759 2013-06-27 21:15:45 <nsh> conclusion: yes
1760 2013-06-27 21:15:53 <nsh> source: simple googling :)
1761 2013-06-27 21:15:57 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, yes he is
1762 2013-06-27 21:17:09 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1763 2013-06-27 21:18:48 <nsh> micopayment channels sounds interesting->potentially_great
1764 2013-06-27 21:18:58 <jgarzik> yep
1765 2013-06-27 21:19:19 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1766 2013-06-27 21:19:40 <nsh> "So who wants to create a pay as much as you use music streaming service? Micropayments for each second of listening. Goes straight to artist."
1767 2013-06-27 21:19:49 <nsh> sounds like a summer-project :)
1768 2013-06-27 21:19:54 <nsh> s/-/ /
1769 2013-06-27 21:20:33 <nsh> also good would be integrating stuff like Flattr into bitcoin
1770 2013-06-27 21:20:35 <nsh> to ease adoption
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1778 2013-06-27 21:35:40 <dan_> I downloaded testnet-in-a-box but can't get it to mine. Is that expected? getgenerate==true and gethashespersec==0
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1781 2013-06-27 21:47:36 wamatt_ has joined
1782 2013-06-27 21:48:17 wamatt has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1783 2013-06-27 21:48:32 wamatt_ has quit (Client Quit)
1784 2013-06-27 21:50:42 milone_ has joined
1785 2013-06-27 21:52:42 fewerlaws has joined
1786 2013-06-27 21:55:22 milone has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1787 2013-06-27 21:55:26 Dragonsangel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1788 2013-06-27 21:56:35 <BW^-> what handshake is there in the protocol?
1789 2013-06-27 21:56:52 <BW^-> before it starts to share broadcasts with the connector. none?
1790 2013-06-27 21:58:30 agricocb has joined
1791 2013-06-27 21:58:38 <sipa> "connector" ?
1792 2013-06-27 21:58:45 jevin has joined
1793 2013-06-27 22:01:19 Liquid3xB has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1794 2013-06-27 22:03:17 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1795 2013-06-27 22:03:42 <nsh> BW^-, see the InitializeConnectorSingletonFactory class
1796 2013-06-27 22:06:29 <michagogo> sipa: I had a thought.
1797 2013-06-27 22:06:47 <michagogo> I can try to build native for linux in the ubuntu vm
1798 2013-06-27 22:06:58 <michagogo> Then run bitcoind in there
1799 2013-06-27 22:07:11 <michagogo> And simply switch the networking to  "host-only"
1800 2013-06-27 22:07:13 <BW^-> nsh: where would that be?
1801 2013-06-27 22:07:24 <BW^-> sipa: connector as in, the party that connected
1802 2013-06-27 22:07:24 <nsh> BW^-, was trolling, sorry. :)
1803 2013-06-27 22:07:32 <BW^-> aha note.d
1804 2013-06-27 22:07:35 * nsh smiles
1805 2013-06-27 22:07:50 <BW^-> nsh,*: is there any like "from the mechanistic point of view" BTC protocol spec anywhere?
1806 2013-06-27 22:07:57 <nsh> BW^-, have you read the network protocol page on the bitcoinwiki ?
1807 2013-06-27 22:08:12 <sipa> michagogo: sure
1808 2013-06-27 22:08:18 <nsh> BW^-, there is a dearth of nice write-ups giving examples of how things work. please write one
1809 2013-06-27 22:08:44 <michagogo> sipa: Am I correct that it should be
1810 2013-06-27 22:08:44 <michagogo> void RelayTransaction(const CTransaction& tx, const uint256& hash, const CDataStream& ss)\r\n{\r\n    return;\r\n}
1811 2013-06-27 22:08:45 <michagogo> ?
1812 2013-06-27 22:08:50 BurtyB2 has joined
1813 2013-06-27 22:08:58 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1814 2013-06-27 22:09:02 <michagogo> Or did I misunderstand you?
1815 2013-06-27 22:09:06 <sipa> yes, looks right
1816 2013-06-27 22:09:11 <nsh> ack
1817 2013-06-27 22:09:43 <michagogo> So, that will mean it'll accept transactions over the network and sendrawtransaction, and process them, put them into mempool, etc
1818 2013-06-27 22:09:49 <michagogo> but not pass them on?
1819 2013-06-27 22:10:55 <sipa> sounds right
1820 2013-06-27 22:11:55 <BW^-> nsh: the "Protocol specification" doc says what should be transmitted when in active mode, no?
1821 2013-06-27 22:12:26 <BW^-> nsh: there's nowhere anything like "This protocol goes straight into active mode, no handshake needed" - though I though I read about some Agent header on handshake  somewhere, also BitcoinJ's source uses the word handshake
1822 2013-06-27 22:12:36 porquilho has quit ()
1823 2013-06-27 22:13:01 BurtyBB has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1824 2013-06-27 22:13:06 <nsh> i am almost certainly close to the bottom in the #bitcoin-dev rankings of people to ask actual technical questions to :)
1825 2013-06-27 22:13:19 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: send the "ver" message first
1826 2013-06-27 22:13:26 <sipa> Luke-Jr: s/ver/version/
1827 2013-06-27 22:13:35 <Luke-Jr> oh, was it spelled out? >_<
1828 2013-06-27 22:13:41 <sipa> yes, version/verack
1829 2013-06-27 22:13:52 <sipa> consistency++
1830 2013-06-27 22:13:53 milone_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1831 2013-06-27 22:14:09 <Luke-Jr> XD
1832 2013-06-27 22:14:12 signor777 has joined
1833 2013-06-27 22:14:23 milone has joined
1834 2013-06-27 22:14:32 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1835 2013-06-27 22:14:37 <BW^-> luke-jr: aha that's all?
1836 2013-06-27 22:14:39 <michagogo> Oh, and just to make sure -- `wget https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/archive/v0.8.3.zip && unzip v0.8.3.zip && cd bitcoin-0.8.3/src && gedit net.cpp && make -f makefile.unix`, correct?
1837 2013-06-27 22:15:05 <michagogo> (after getting the dependencies)
1838 2013-06-27 22:15:12 <sipa> yes
1839 2013-06-27 22:15:15 <michagogo> k
1840 2013-06-27 22:15:24 Guest83631 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1841 2013-06-27 22:15:27 <sipa> BW^-: there is a version message, to which the peer replies with a verack
1842 2013-06-27 22:15:35 allex2501 has joined
1843 2013-06-27 22:15:36 <sipa> BW^-: after that the connection is initialized
1844 2013-06-27 22:15:45 <sipa> but i'm not familiar with the BitcoinJ API
1845 2013-06-27 22:15:46 <BW^-> sipa: aha, so the ver message is all, ok noted. thx.
1846 2013-06-27 22:15:52 <michagogo> I thought I saw something about "fatal: not a git repository or something: .git" scroll by... Is that a problem?
1847 2013-06-27 22:15:58 allex2501 is now known as Guest99846
1848 2013-06-27 22:16:00 <BW^-> sipa: indeed i was interested in the protocol not the particular implementaiton here, thx. :)
1849 2013-06-27 22:16:04 <nsh> fatal is gitspeak for "you can ignore this"
1850 2013-06-27 22:16:12 <sipa> lol
1851 2013-06-27 22:16:22 <sipa> michagogo: ignore that
1852 2013-06-27 22:16:25 A2501 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1853 2013-06-27 22:16:30 <michagogo> Does that mean that part of the build script tries to run a git command?
1854 2013-06-27 22:16:32 <sipa> that's the code for finding the version number
1855 2013-06-27 22:16:35 <BW^-> sipa: after this, does the other peer start complete broadcasting to you?
1856 2013-06-27 22:16:41 <sipa> michagogo: it has a fallback
1857 2013-06-27 22:16:48 <michagogo> Okay, thanks
1858 2013-06-27 22:16:50 <sipa> BW^-: if you want something you have to ask for it :)
1859 2013-06-27 22:17:00 <sipa> BW^-: but new transactions and blocks are announced
1860 2013-06-27 22:17:09 <sipa> after which you can choose to request them
1861 2013-06-27 22:17:46 * michagogo stares blankly at the wall of incomprehensible text
1862 2013-06-27 22:17:47 tg has joined
1863 2013-06-27 22:18:12 <BW^-> sipa: aha, so by the latter you mean there's broadcasts of *all* the new things
1864 2013-06-27 22:18:12 <BW^-> ok
1865 2013-06-27 22:18:22 <sipa> BW^-: indeed
1866 2013-06-27 22:18:28 <sipa> BW^-: it's a gossip protocol
1867 2013-06-27 22:18:31 <michagogo> Okay, I got a prompt back. Where does the output go?
1868 2013-06-27 22:18:36 <BW^-> sipa: so it's just, if you want to retrieve *old* stuff, you need to ask for it explicitly.
1869 2013-06-27 22:18:52 <sipa> BW^-: you can ask for old blocks, yes
1870 2013-06-27 22:18:58 <sipa> BW^-: you can't ask for old transactions
1871 2013-06-27 22:19:34 <sipa> new things are announced (by their hash in an 'inv' message), but not immediately sent
1872 2013-06-27 22:19:44 arthurb_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1873 2013-06-27 22:20:12 <BW^-> aha
1874 2013-06-27 22:20:21 <BW^-> sipa: zoomong out a bit -
1875 2013-06-27 22:20:28 <sipa> so that if you hear about something from 53 peers, you don't receive it 53 times
1876 2013-06-27 22:20:28 gritball has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1877 2013-06-27 22:20:41 <BW^-> sipa: what's the logics for knowing what chain to work on?
1878 2013-06-27 22:20:43 milone_ has joined
1879 2013-06-27 22:20:46 <sipa> BW^-: pain
1880 2013-06-27 22:20:46 <BW^-> i mean, so there are no splits
1881 2013-06-27 22:20:49 <BW^-> hehe
1882 2013-06-27 22:21:02 <sipa> BW^-: the rule is: the longest valid chain you know
1883 2013-06-27 22:21:05 <BW^-> aha
1884 2013-06-27 22:21:13 <sipa> how you find out what that is: you can ask for it
1885 2013-06-27 22:21:20 <BW^-> sipa: so for every chain a BTCD node has, it should keep a counter of how many steps back it is to the first one..
1886 2013-06-27 22:21:29 imd23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1887 2013-06-27 22:21:34 <sipa> BW^-: 'length' is actually measured in amount of hashing work
1888 2013-06-27 22:21:36 <BW^-> sipa: ..and then maintain an index of steps back known per node?
1889 2013-06-27 22:21:42 <BW^-> right
1890 2013-06-27 22:21:45 <sipa> and there is indeed a counter kept for that for every block
1891 2013-06-27 22:21:50 <BW^-> super
1892 2013-06-27 22:22:03 <BW^-> sipa: where is the amount of hashing work registered in the protocol?
1893 2013-06-27 22:22:07 <sipa> it isn't
1894 2013-06-27 22:22:08 <phantomcircuit> the "right" way to do that is to have chain identifiers
1895 2013-06-27 22:22:09 <BW^-> *wrapping mind around*
1896 2013-06-27 22:22:12 <sipa> you compute it
1897 2013-06-27 22:22:12 <phantomcircuit> but that gets annoying fast
1898 2013-06-27 22:22:24 <BW^-> phantomcircuit: chain identifiers, as in what?
1899 2013-06-27 22:22:31 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1900 2013-06-27 22:22:44 <phantomcircuit> as in each block is tagged with chain numbers
1901 2013-06-27 22:22:59 <BW^-> phantomcircuit: like what kind of numbers?
1902 2013-06-27 22:23:00 <sipa> what in case of a fork?
1903 2013-06-27 22:23:06 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah
1904 2013-06-27 22:23:08 imd23 has joined
1905 2013-06-27 22:23:16 <sipa> BW^-: typically block hashes are used as identifiers
1906 2013-06-27 22:23:20 <phantomcircuit> it's the only way to correctly calculate correcting entries for a double entry accounting system
1907 2013-06-27 22:23:27 Guest70692 has quit (Quit: leaving)
1908 2013-06-27 22:23:27 <sipa> BW^-: but you can't know from a block hash where in the tree it's supposed to be
1909 2013-06-27 22:23:27 Liquid3xB has joined
1910 2013-06-27 22:23:40 <phantomcircuit> in the event that a transaction is double spent and then the double spent is double spent to the original
1911 2013-06-27 22:23:44 <sipa> phantomcircuit: meh, disagree, that's pure wallet implementation
1912 2013-06-27 22:23:47 <phantomcircuit> which is admittedly hilariously unlikely
1913 2013-06-27 22:24:04 petertodd has joined
1914 2013-06-27 22:24:17 <phantomcircuit> sipa, to deal with the above situation requires some sort of unique identifier per reorg
1915 2013-06-27 22:24:19 * sipa tests index-by-address blockindex patch
1916 2013-06-27 22:24:28 <sipa> phantomcircuit: disagree
1917 2013-06-27 22:24:33 milone has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1918 2013-06-27 22:24:36 <sipa> phantomcircuit: just have a log-based wallet
1919 2013-06-27 22:24:50 <sipa> when a block gets connected that credits you, write a +entry
1920 2013-06-27 22:25:00 <sipa> when such a block gets disconnected, write a -entry
1921 2013-06-27 22:25:12 <phantomcircuit> sipa, node/wallet are disjointed
1922 2013-06-27 22:25:19 <phantomcircuit> cant rely on the entries getting written
1923 2013-06-27 22:25:22 <sipa> so?
1924 2013-06-27 22:26:03 <sipa> the wallet somehow has to be informated about the chain
1925 2013-06-27 22:26:12 <sipa> whether it's separate or not
1926 2013-06-27 22:26:12 <gfawkes> luv the micropayment channel news!
1927 2013-06-27 22:26:39 <sipa> *informed
1928 2013-06-27 22:26:54 patcon has joined
1929 2013-06-27 22:26:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, right, i guess you could create an event log on the node and have the wallet consume that
1930 2013-06-27 22:27:01 fewerlaws has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1931 2013-06-27 22:27:31 <phantomcircuit> you'd probably want to store the event log for a long time though
1932 2013-06-27 22:27:41 <phantomcircuit> which would be prohibitive pretty quickly i suspect
1933 2013-06-27 22:27:41 <sipa> that event log is called the block chain :p
1934 2013-06-27 22:28:18 <sipa> because for purely offline replay, you'll never observe a reorg
1935 2013-06-27 22:28:20 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not really as i said you can have two reorgs which result in a chain state that's ambiguous as to whether there was a reorg or not
1936 2013-06-27 22:28:40 <phantomcircuit> so lets say you have some web wallet
1937 2013-06-27 22:28:42 * nsh muses
1938 2013-06-27 22:28:42 <sipa> every wallet transaction knows the block it is part of
1939 2013-06-27 22:28:53 <sipa> if that block is no longer in the main chain, disconnect
1940 2013-06-27 22:28:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa, im not really explaining this correctly i think
1941 2013-06-27 22:29:00 <phantomcircuit> let me try again
1942 2013-06-27 22:29:24 <BW^-> are all connections TLS with NULL as cipher?
1943 2013-06-27 22:29:27 <BW^-> or raw/plaintext?
1944 2013-06-27 22:29:27 <phantomcircuit> synchronizing the wallet and the node as to the current best chain isn't hard
1945 2013-06-27 22:29:43 <sipa> first of all, what kind of wallet are you talking about
1946 2013-06-27 22:29:56 <sipa> what is stored in it, and where is it stored
1947 2013-06-27 22:30:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not the kind you are
1948 2013-06-27 22:30:02 FabianB_ has joined
1949 2013-06-27 22:30:09 <sipa> i'm not a wallet
1950 2013-06-27 22:30:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, think web wallet
1951 2013-06-27 22:30:19 <sipa> that's not an answer :)
1952 2013-06-27 22:30:22 milone_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1953 2013-06-27 22:30:27 <BW^-> ?
1954 2013-06-27 22:30:41 <sipa> i asked what is stored in the wallet, and where it is stored
1955 2013-06-27 22:30:47 milone has joined
1956 2013-06-27 22:30:53 <sipa> you told me only how its interface is written
1957 2013-06-27 22:31:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, watch only wallet which is only counting pubkeyhash transactions to specific addresses and crediting "accounts" on a web wallet service
1958 2013-06-27 22:31:04 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1959 2013-06-27 22:31:23 <sipa> and where are those accounts stored?
1960 2013-06-27 22:31:31 <phantomcircuit> sql db somewhere
1961 2013-06-27 22:31:41 <phantomcircuit> proper accounting requires that you issue a correcting entry in the event of a double spend
1962 2013-06-27 22:31:50 <sipa> absolutely
1963 2013-06-27 22:32:04 <phantomcircuit> now lets say there is a huge reorg
1964 2013-06-27 22:32:08 <phantomcircuit> and it's no longer double spent
1965 2013-06-27 22:32:09 <sipa> so, store for every account the best block it has seen
1966 2013-06-27 22:32:12 signor777 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1967 2013-06-27 22:32:14 <nsh> phantomcircuit, so you're won over by these Generally Accepted Accounting Principles discussions? :P
1968 2013-06-27 22:32:28 <sipa> GAAP makes perfect sense at a wallet level
1969 2013-06-27 22:32:30 tg has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1970 2013-06-27 22:32:31 <sipa> not at the blockchain level
1971 2013-06-27 22:32:35 * nsh nods
1972 2013-06-27 22:32:46 <phantomcircuit> sipa, right, there is a disconnect sort of
1973 2013-06-27 22:33:03 <phantomcircuit> the blockchain is always the current best journal
1974 2013-06-27 22:33:13 <sipa> i see a wallet as something that observes changes to the tip of the chain
1975 2013-06-27 22:33:43 <phantomcircuit> nsh, everything i've ever written has stringently adhered to GAAP
1976 2013-06-27 22:33:53 <phantomcircuit> unlike pretty much every other piece of bitcoin software
1977 2013-06-27 22:34:02 <nsh> phantomcircuit, noted :)
1978 2013-06-27 22:34:22 <BW^-> over the BTC node to node connection, is there any encoding wrapping the protocol - is it raw or SSL??
1979 2013-06-27 22:34:24 <BW^-> or either?
1980 2013-06-27 22:34:48 <sipa> BW^-: raw, custom, message based protocol
1981 2013-06-27 22:34:56 <sipa> no encryption or authentication whatsoever
1982 2013-06-27 22:35:23 <BW^-> sipa: aha, and no SSL ever?
1983 2013-06-27 22:35:29 <sipa> no
1984 2013-06-27 22:35:31 <BW^-> noted.
1985 2013-06-27 22:35:35 <sipa> there's nothing secret
1986 2013-06-27 22:35:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, right that would end up being an event log
1987 2013-06-27 22:35:49 coingenuity has joined
1988 2013-06-27 22:36:08 <phantomcircuit> sipa, essentially the node (thing keeping track of the best chain) would need to generate a log of activity
1989 2013-06-27 22:36:20 <phantomcircuit> that shouldn't be very hard to do though
1990 2013-06-27 22:36:44 <phantomcircuit> there just needs to be a consistent path to the best chain
1991 2013-06-27 22:36:54 <phantomcircuit> normally this would just be adding 1 block at a time
1992 2013-06-27 22:37:31 Guest99846 is now known as A2501
1993 2013-06-27 22:37:49 * nsh frowns
1994 2013-06-27 22:38:10 <phantomcircuit> nsh, huh
1995 2013-06-27 22:38:34 <nsh> oh, no direct comment. i was trying to think of ways that stuff might happen in a globally nonconsistent way
1996 2013-06-27 22:38:46 <nsh> but my brain is not at best tonight and i don't know enough
1997 2013-06-27 22:39:13 <nsh> also i'm not really paying attention. i should probably just keep quiet :)
1998 2013-06-27 22:39:18 <phantomcircuit> nsh, the issue is that if you only have access to the current best chain the wallet has to have reorg logic
1999 2013-06-27 22:39:31 <nsh> right
2000 2013-06-27 22:39:32 <phantomcircuit> if it's just an event log that massively simplifies the endeavor
2001 2013-06-27 22:39:51 <phantomcircuit> the same thing can be achieved by having incrementing chain ids
2002 2013-06-27 22:39:56 <nsh> but my thought process started with considering that not all events are global?
2003 2013-06-27 22:40:13 <phantomcircuit> nsh, all blockchain events are global
2004 2013-06-27 22:40:21 <nsh> hmm, okay
2005 2013-06-27 22:40:22 <phantomcircuit> the real head scratcher comes if you want to get past activity
2006 2013-06-27 22:40:32 <nsh> there are divergent histories
2007 2013-06-27 22:40:33 <phantomcircuit> (hint point in time snapshot + log replay)
2008 2013-06-27 22:40:48 <phantomcircuit> nsh, it doesn't matter as long as they all end up at the same place
2009 2013-06-27 22:40:49 <nsh> that is, different ways that things could lead to the current state
2010 2013-06-27 22:40:52 <michagogo> Okay, I seem to have built my modified bitcoind and it's syncing, as far as I can tell
2011 2013-06-27 22:40:53 <nsh> ok
2012 2013-06-27 22:41:07 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2013 2013-06-27 22:41:13 handle has joined
2014 2013-06-27 22:41:14 <michagogo> Does `sendtoaddress` return the txid?
2015 2013-06-27 22:41:14 <nsh> but the consensus is only designed to apply to the 'present'
2016 2013-06-27 22:41:22 <nsh> as given by the difficulty clockrate
2017 2013-06-27 22:41:28 <phantomcircuit> sipa, for an example of why this matters see coinbase negative account balances, that was caused by reprocessing the blockchain causing hilarity with correcting entries being weird
2018 2013-06-27 22:41:29 <nsh> is that a reasonable statement?
2019 2013-06-27 22:41:40 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, yes
2020 2013-06-27 22:41:48 <michagogo> Thanks.
2021 2013-06-27 22:41:50 <phantomcircuit> nsh, yeah it is
2022 2013-06-27 22:42:00 <nsh> ok
2023 2013-06-27 22:42:05 <phantomcircuit> nsh, any version of reorg history that results in the current best chain is ok though
2024 2013-06-27 22:42:09 handle_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2025 2013-06-27 22:42:20 <michagogo> Odd, how come `getdifficulty` is returning 1.00000000?
2026 2013-06-27 22:42:21 sensorii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2027 2013-06-27 22:42:25 <nsh> phantomcircuit, certain accounts may require more processing though
2028 2013-06-27 22:42:36 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, testnet?
2029 2013-06-27 22:42:38 <nsh> i can't immediately see why this could be a problem, but just musing
2030 2013-06-27 22:42:38 <michagogo> Yeah
2031 2013-06-27 22:42:45 <michagogo> It was 240.something a bit ago
2032 2013-06-27 22:42:50 <nsh> (accounts of history)
2033 2013-06-27 22:43:40 sensorii has joined
2034 2013-06-27 22:45:26 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, if there isn't a block after x time it goes back to 1
2035 2013-06-27 22:45:29 tg has joined
2036 2013-06-27 22:45:29 <phantomcircuit> i forget what x is
2037 2013-06-27 22:45:51 free499__ has joined
2038 2013-06-27 22:46:09 testnode9_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2039 2013-06-27 22:46:15 <michagogo> Last block was 15 minutes ago
2040 2013-06-27 22:46:25 <michagogo> But it was 1 at least 5 or so mins ago
2041 2013-06-27 22:46:42 <michagogo> Also, if it reset to 1 how come blocks aren't flooding in now>
2042 2013-06-27 22:46:44 <michagogo> now?*
2043 2013-06-27 22:46:52 patcon has joined
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2047 2013-06-27 22:48:07 BW^- has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
2048 2013-06-27 22:48:09 jgarzik is now known as Guest97364
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2061 2013-06-27 22:56:46 <michagogo> Hmm, it appears that bfgminer doesn't recognize the testnet's difficulty resets
2062 2013-06-27 22:57:28 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
2063 2013-06-27 22:58:34 wei_ has joined
2064 2013-06-27 23:00:03 testnode9_ has joined
2065 2013-06-27 23:00:59 <michagogo> What does the "target" object in the output of getblocktemplate mean? (not what is it, what does it mean)
2066 2013-06-27 23:01:41 <sipa> it's the target hash
2067 2013-06-27 23:01:46 <sipa> the value you have to be lower
2068 2013-06-27 23:02:01 free499__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2069 2013-06-27 23:02:39 <michagogo> What would a value of 0000000001108300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 translate to in terms of difficulty?
2070 2013-06-27 23:03:21 <nsh> solve N = 2^32 * d
2071 2013-06-27 23:03:50 <michagogo> Hmm, getdifficulty is returning 240.48507088 again now
2072 2013-06-27 23:04:02 <michagogo> It was returning 1.00000000 a couple minutes ago...
2073 2013-06-27 23:05:02 * michagogo is confused
2074 2013-06-27 23:05:39 milone_ has joined
2075 2013-06-27 23:05:44 <sipa> it jumps to 1 if there hasn't been a block for 20 minutes
2076 2013-06-27 23:06:38 <sipa> 240.48507088284620787523
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2078 2013-06-27 23:07:28 <michagogo> sipa: And there was a 20 minute gap between blocks
2079 2013-06-27 23:07:52 <michagogo> However, the difficulty was returning as 1 about 10 minutes after block 93693
2080 2013-06-27 23:08:55 <sipa> maybe it returns the difficulty of the last block, rather than the difficulty of the next?
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2099 2013-06-27 23:36:05 <sipa> realazthat: hi!
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2113 2013-06-27 23:44:57 <dan_> How many signatories on a multi-sig address are widely supported by the network?
2114 2013-06-27 23:45:34 <michagogo> getblocktemplate is still returning the same target, but getdifficulty is returning 1
2115 2013-06-27 23:45:37 <sipa> N-of-M, with M up to 3
2116 2013-06-27 23:45:48 <sipa> the protocol supports M up to 20
2117 2013-06-27 23:45:54 * michagogo is confused
2118 2013-06-27 23:46:00 <dan_> Is there any talk of increasing that M?
2119 2013-06-27 23:46:07 <dan_> Is it a tx size limit?
2120 2013-06-27 23:46:09 <sipa> no
2121 2013-06-27 23:46:14 <phantomcircuit> dan_, the limit is an IsStandard check iirc
2122 2013-06-27 23:46:27 <dan_> ah ok, thanks
2123 2013-06-27 23:46:31 <phantomcircuit> i believe it's the OP_CHECKMULTISIG
2124 2013-06-27 23:46:42 <sipa> OP_CHECKMULTISIG allows up 20 pubkeys
2125 2013-06-27 23:46:50 <sipa> IsStandard() up to 3
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2127 2013-06-27 23:47:15 <nsh> what might go horribly black death if that was raised to 5 or 10 or something?
2128 2013-06-27 23:47:24 <sipa> most likely nothing
2129 2013-06-27 23:47:38 * nsh nods
2130 2013-06-27 23:47:38 <sipa> but it needs to be tested, ... first
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2132 2013-06-27 23:47:43 <nsh> right
2133 2013-06-27 23:48:12 <dan_> it would be nice, to be able to have a bigger group collectively spend funds. that's one problem i'm running into with it
2134 2013-06-27 23:49:00 <dan_> this would be horrible, but could they be chained? multi-sig addr out of 3 multi-sig addrs?
2135 2013-06-27 23:49:21 <sipa> no
2136 2013-06-27 23:49:33 <sipa> OP_CHECKMULTISIG needs pubkeys as input
2137 2013-06-27 23:49:41 <sipa> it can't take new scripts
2138 2013-06-27 23:49:53 <dan_> gotcha, thanks for the info
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