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   7 2013-07-02 00:07:06 <BW^-> Someone said, I believe, that a global index of transactions per public address would make bitcoind less scalable
   8 2013-07-02 00:07:37 <BW^-> while I completely understand the point with that bitcoind chooses not to have such a thing on by default, because indeed there's completely zero need for bitcoind's execution and function to have it, then,
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  10 2013-07-02 00:07:52 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: what? there already is an index of unspent outputs
  11 2013-07-02 00:08:01 <BW^-> there wouldn't be any technical problem with such an index beyond that it could add a 10-200% space requirement atop the blockchain?
  12 2013-07-02 00:08:02 <BW^-> or?
  13 2013-07-02 00:08:22 <BW^-> luke-jr: by default in bitcoind, indexed by public address that the unspent sum belongs to?
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  15 2013-07-02 00:08:42 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: no
  16 2013-07-02 00:09:03 <Luke-Jr> there's not much point to that index
  17 2013-07-02 00:09:21 <BW^-> luke-jr: it would optimize some operations that some may want to do, that's about it, right?
  18 2013-07-02 00:09:34 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: it wouldn't optimize any useful operations AFAIK
  19 2013-07-02 00:09:34 <BW^-> and.. if i got it right, sipa already implemented it, https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/compare/39cc8bb3ba...48f219b7a9 ?
  20 2013-07-02 00:09:37 <BW^-> i mean, effectively?
  21 2013-07-02 00:09:46 <Luke-Jr> yes, sipa did implement it
  22 2013-07-02 00:10:20 <BW^-> luke-jr: i guess whether it's useful or not depends completely on the use (scope/type/etc)
  23 2013-07-02 00:10:35 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: pretty much all cases where someone wants such an index, that someone has terribly misunderstood how bitcoin works
  24 2013-07-02 00:10:50 <BW^-> it would help resolving current available "balance" on an address (i'm well aware they're intended to be single-use)
  25 2013-07-02 00:11:09 <BW^-> luke-jr: like, what kind of misunderstanding?
  26 2013-07-02 00:11:30 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: addresses don't have balances
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  28 2013-07-02 00:12:10 <BW^-> luke-jr: yeah i know, but based on all transactions ever done with a particular address as input or output, you can calculate this extremely fast
  29 2013-07-02 00:12:25 <BW^-> luke-jr: and using sipa's "addrindex" that's exactly what you get - right?
  30 2013-07-02 00:13:02 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: yes, you can calculate a number that has no meaning extremely fast
  31 2013-07-02 00:13:06 <BW^-> =)
  32 2013-07-02 00:13:35 <BW^-> luke-jr: i'm aware that the scripting gives the possibility to do other transactions than typical unconditional send
  33 2013-07-02 00:14:06 <BW^-> luke-jr: though, the great great majority of tx:es are still just typical unconditional send aren't they? ..anyhow such an index would regard only those, so in this regard sure it would leak a bit?
  34 2013-07-02 00:14:42 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: well, since any address is only used once, you could just store the txid for it
  35 2013-07-02 00:15:38 <BW^-> luke-jr: there are people on the internet saying "send bitcoins to my address 17nVZEeEwgDfkCWXHgCNb8QuHXw5ZGKZtZ" etc. right?
  36 2013-07-02 00:15:46 <BW^-> luke-jr: in those cases, the address is reused right?
  37 2013-07-02 00:15:47 <BW^-> 17nVZEeEwgDfkCWXHgCNb8QuHXw5ZGKZtZ = address
  38 2013-07-02 00:15:50 <BW^-> [an]
  39 2013-07-02 00:16:53 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: I see no reason to accomidate people using bitcoin wrong
  40 2013-07-02 00:16:58 <Luke-Jr> it just encourages such behaviour
  41 2013-07-02 00:18:41 <BW^-> luke-jr: you mean that any time people do like that, they do indeed use bitcoin conceptually wrong?
  42 2013-07-02 00:18:51 moses__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
  43 2013-07-02 00:19:35 <BW^-> also, the service 'flexcoin' assigns an individual public address to each account, and tell their users that that address is what they should receive incoming funds t
  44 2013-07-02 00:19:35 <BW^-> o
  45 2013-07-02 00:20:05 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: yes; reusing addresses only "works" to a limited extent with Bitcoin, and breaks certain assumptions the system makes
  46 2013-07-02 00:20:20 <BW^-> luke-jr: which?
  47 2013-07-02 00:20:37 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: Bitcoin was designed around the assumption that addresses are only ever used once
  48 2013-07-02 00:20:50 <BW^-> how?
  49 2013-07-02 00:20:54 <Luke-Jr> so for example, reusing addresses compromises both your own and others privacy
  50 2013-07-02 00:21:10 <Luke-Jr> (not talking about anonymity, just basic privacy)
  51 2013-07-02 00:22:19 <BW^-> luke-jr: you mean in the sense that the more data there is out there that's been encrypted with your private key, the easier it is to crack it?
  52 2013-07-02 00:23:03 <BW^-> crack as in figure out what the private key is, for whatever purpose such as stealing them?
  53 2013-07-02 00:23:08 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: that's more of a real concern with quantum-safe crypto than ECDSA, but yes, it's good not to set bad habits for that reason too
  54 2013-07-02 00:23:24 <BW^-> luke-jr: what more reasons are there?
  55 2013-07-02 00:23:33 <BW^-> i wish to get these things now as to know how to relate to them  :))
  56 2013-07-02 00:23:36 <Luke-Jr> some day I'll make a list..
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  58 2013-07-02 00:25:42 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, to be fair reusing addresses only makes possible a 50% keyspace reduction
  59 2013-07-02 00:25:56 <phantomcircuit> with 256 bit keys that should still leave a wide security margin
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  62 2013-07-02 00:26:58 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: you're talking about lamport?
  63 2013-07-02 00:27:08 <phantomcircuit> uh huh
  64 2013-07-02 00:27:58 <BW^-> luke-jr: i'd love to understand this now - if i promise to put it on bitcoin.it , could you write it here now?
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  66 2013-07-02 00:28:23 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: my memory is foggy right now, I'd have to log-dig, and logs are public..
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  80 2013-07-02 00:37:22 <jaekwon> it seems that all bitcoin addresses are propagated to all nodes, so any node has an idea of the entire network. is this true?
  81 2013-07-02 00:37:34 <pigeons> no
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  84 2013-07-02 00:38:09 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: yes
  85 2013-07-02 00:38:16 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: but that information is not especially useful
  86 2013-07-02 00:38:52 <BW^-> is ther eanything like a "punchline argument" for not reusing bitcoin addresses?
  87 2013-07-02 00:39:26 <BW^-> jaekwon: "any node has an idea of the entire network" - you mean in the sense, IP:s and alike of connected peers? if so, no.
  88 2013-07-02 00:40:38 <jaekwon> like, those addresses are not part of "inv" messages so it's hard to tell from which IPs a transaction originates from? but even so, i suppose one can geocode all the ips around a location and maybe break into the meatspace or something
  89 2013-07-02 00:40:47 Maged has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949])
  90 2013-07-02 00:41:02 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: Bitcoin is not intended to be anonymous
  91 2013-07-02 00:41:23 <jaekwon> luke-jr, i know, just listing the consequences of its design.
  92 2013-07-02 00:42:16 <jaekwon> BW^-: from the wiki under Network#Messages, "Everyone broadcasts an addr containing their own IP address every 24 hours. Nodes relay these messages to a couple of their peers and store the address if it's new to them. Through this system, everyone has a reasonably clear picture of which IPs are connected to the network at the moment. After connecting to the network, you get added to everyone's address database almost instantly beca
  93 2013-07-02 00:42:23 <jaekwon> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Network#Standard_relaying
  94 2013-07-02 00:43:14 <BW^-> jaekwon: for sure there is a limit to this. look up the code in bitcoind that actually handles this and check its behavior - and feel free to relate your finding here!
  95 2013-07-02 00:43:39 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: it doesn't tie the IPs to transactions at all
  96 2013-07-02 00:44:52 <jaekwon> Luke-Jr: right, it doesn't, but you can be reasonably sure that somebody at the IP location has a wallet, and you can maybe extort them.
  97 2013-07-02 00:46:08 <jaekwon> BW^-: seems like in addrman.h, tried_bucket_count is 64 and bucket_size is 64, so at most 64*64 are remembered, along with 256*64 for new addresses, or something, but BitsOfProof for has unlimited storage of addresses, i believe.
  98 2013-07-02 00:46:32 agnostic98 has joined
  99 2013-07-02 00:46:47 <jaekwon> either way, if the "addr" message propagates through the network for all clients, you can't rely on local storage limitations of the client, you have to assume that somebody has a list of all the wallet IPs.
 100 2013-07-02 00:47:11 <jaekwon> i'm probably wrong somewhere, but that's why i'm here, to clarify.
 101 2013-07-02 00:50:59 <jaekwon> gotta get food brb!
 102 2013-07-02 00:55:08 <BW^-> jaekwon: ultimately if this is a problem, route it over Tor.
 103 2013-07-02 00:55:34 <BW^-> jaekwon: though, every node cannot be guaranteed hold all the ip:s of all peers on the network, it'd take too much bandwidth and RAM - it wouldn't scale anywhere
 104 2013-07-02 00:55:56 <BW^-> so i'd guess there is something you did not pick up correctly from reading the source, if your conclusion was that all IP:s are conveyed and kept in RAM with all peers
 105 2013-07-02 01:01:10 <jaekwon> it really wouldn't take up that much space BW^-, i would put the number at thens of thousands.
 106 2013-07-02 01:01:30 <bbrian> jaekwon: are you asking about the wallet owner's IP?
 107 2013-07-02 01:01:36 <jaekwon> i assume Tor is compromised. it's just obfuscation.
 108 2013-07-02 01:01:43 <graingert> 256*256*256*256
 109 2013-07-02 01:02:00 <jaekwon> all bitcoin node's IPs that are active within the last 24 hours.
 110 2013-07-02 01:02:01 <graingert> jaekwon: if Tor isn't anonymous then nothing is
 111 2013-07-02 01:02:10 <jaekwon> graingert: that's correct!
 112 2013-07-02 01:02:17 <graingert> so what's the point?
 113 2013-07-02 01:02:39 <jaekwon> you don't need strong anonymity build disruptive tech.
 114 2013-07-02 01:02:50 <jaekwon> transparency is the other edge of the sword.
 115 2013-07-02 01:02:51 <Krellan> is it possible to run bitcoind on a port that is not 8333? will other nodes store IP/port or just IP?
 116 2013-07-02 01:02:58 <BW^-> jaekwon: Tor compromised how?
 117 2013-07-02 01:03:24 <jaekwon> for instance, the NSA through sybil nodes.
 118 2013-07-02 01:03:26 <BW^-> Krellan: yeah run it with -port=12345
 119 2013-07-02 01:03:30 <jaekwon> i gtg. ttyguys later in the evening
 120 2013-07-02 01:04:22 <Krellan> thanks BW, but does the peer-to-peer data structure that each node builds up, does it contain IP/port or just IP?
 121 2013-07-02 01:04:34 <jaekwon> IP/port Krellan
 122 2013-07-02 01:04:41 <Krellan> Thanks, that's good to know
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 126 2013-07-02 01:15:40 <graingert> Krellan upnp and NAT would break
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 131 2013-07-02 01:19:18 <BW^-> luke-jr: only for followup, here's a good point on the reason not to reuse bitcoin addresses - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=a9578goomppe1cvg8r3fn8ckv0&topic=139381.msg1486880#msg1486880
 132 2013-07-02 01:20:42 <BW^-> if a security hole is found in two of ECDSA, SHA25 and RIPEMD160, then the addresses for which there's never been any spend done will still be safe.
 133 2013-07-02 01:21:14 <graingert> mmmh BW^- tasy session ID
 134 2013-07-02 01:21:27 <BW^-> graingert: ?
 135 2013-07-02 01:21:44 <BW^-> aha, there was a session ID in the URL - noted.
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 139 2013-07-02 01:21:49 <graingert> BW^-: and now I should be logged in as you...?
 140 2013-07-02 01:21:54 <graingert> maybe, who knows?
 141 2013-07-02 01:21:57 <BW^-> griangert: n
 142 2013-07-02 01:21:58 <BW^-> no
 143 2013-07-02 01:22:25 <BW^-> graingert: anyhow well pointed out. my visit had no login or alike, thogh if someone else would login now then - thanks for pointing out anyhow, it was like 10 years ago I saw this last.
 144 2013-07-02 01:22:41 <graingert> :p
 145 2013-07-02 01:22:46 <BW^-> could be worth it to point out to bitcointalk.org admins?
 146 2013-07-02 01:28:02 BTC_Bear has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 147 2013-07-02 01:31:49 <BW^-> when a node wants to download the blockchain, say it's starting out from scratch as a new installation, how does its protocol use look like then?
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 150 2013-07-02 01:32:36 <BW^-> does it use... getblocks with some particular "block locator hashes" argument to poll for what happened starting from a "root block" or alike??
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 186 2013-07-02 02:17:46 <imd23> hey
 187 2013-07-02 02:17:56 <imd23> do anyone know what happened to buttercoin ?
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 191 2013-07-02 02:25:40 Maged has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 192 2013-07-02 02:26:26 <k9quaint> imd23: it was delicious
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 195 2013-07-02 02:35:25 <owowo> Is the IP a TX was send from stored in the blockchain? Like when you send from your wallet, the IP gets noted.
 196 2013-07-02 02:35:35 CodeName has joined
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 198 2013-07-02 02:37:08 <BTC_Bear> that would be some bad design, these guys wouldn't do that.
 199 2013-07-02 02:37:22 Subo1978 has joined
 200 2013-07-02 02:38:05 <BTC_Bear> NO is the answer.
 201 2013-07-02 02:38:17 <jchp> owowo: no. however, you must assume that some peers try to promiscuously connect to every node and try to deduce source of transactions and log the IP (blockchain.info does this)
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 204 2013-07-02 02:41:12 <owowo> ok
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 243 2013-07-02 03:48:44 <imd23> k9quaint: awesome :(
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 268 2013-07-02 04:42:43 <stevedekorte> Are there any (dust) restrictions on tx output sizes atm?
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 270 2013-07-02 04:43:49 <IanCormac> Isn't it anything less than the cost of using an input? 5400 satoshi or something?
 271 2013-07-02 04:44:21 <walch> stevedekorte: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/481d89979457d69da07edd99fba451fd42a47f5c/src/core.h#L146
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 275 2013-07-02 04:53:41 <sipa> stevedekorte: transaction outputs for which the marginal cost to spend them, according to your own (configurable) relay policy, must be at most 1/3 of the outputs value
 276 2013-07-02 04:54:57 <sipa> that translates to 5460 satoshi at the current default settings
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 283 2013-07-02 05:06:53 <stevedekorte> thanks for the responses
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 285 2013-07-02 05:10:03 <stevedekorte> sipa: so even if the tx pays an appropriate tx fee, if the tx output is <5460 satoshi, the tx will no be put in a block by most miners?
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 287 2013-07-02 05:10:38 <gmaxwell> 'appropriate' — the approiate fee is paid by increasing the output value(s) up to a point where they aren't so obviously uneconomical to redeem.
 288 2013-07-02 05:11:38 <gmaxwell> doing so won't cost more than 5460 satoshi per output, pretty inexpensive as fees go.
 289 2013-07-02 05:12:18 <walch> doesn't this introduce cases where the change from another output causes an otherwise acceptable TX to be rejected?
 290 2013-07-02 05:12:35 <stevedekorte> gmaxwell: the use case here is for a form of colored coin - so a 1 satoshi output is ok and the system could always using another txin to pay the transfer fee
 291 2013-07-02 05:12:51 <gmaxwell> walch: no, because of the loststanding dust fees, client software already had to avoid change under 0.01 BTC.
 292 2013-07-02 05:13:44 <gmaxwell> stevedekorte: so make your colored coin 5500 satoshi, and then if its coloration loses value the output is still economical to redeem and won't consume space in the UTXO forever.
 293 2013-07-02 05:14:27 <stevedekorte> gmaxwell: yeah, we can work around it - just wondering what the options are
 294 2013-07-02 05:15:43 <gmaxwell> You should be careful to not assume a any specific form of transaction will be pratically possible in the far future, or at least as minimially assuming as you can be.
 295 2013-07-02 05:16:54 <walch> gmaxwell: ah, I wasn't aware of that one
 296 2013-07-02 05:17:57 <gmaxwell> walch: so rather than taking your >5460 change as an output (which you couldn't actually usefully spend) it would just add it as fee.
 297 2013-07-02 05:18:18 <gmaxwell> And that was already the case, so no behavior change there.
 298 2013-07-02 05:19:24 <walch> that's reasonable.
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 341 2013-07-02 06:31:21 <PrimeStunna> hey
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 356 2013-07-02 07:03:19 <PrimeStunna> is anyone good w/ CSS and want to earn a quick 0.1 btc?
 357 2013-07-02 07:03:34 <gjs278> PrimeStunna: yes
 358 2013-07-02 07:03:42 <PrimeStunna> will PM you
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 523 2013-07-02 12:10:23 <psychophoniac> hello, i have got a question, why does bitcoin-qt have 100% workload almost all of the time? i am on xubuntu 12.04.2 LTS, 64bits (latest updates), bitcoin-qt version is v0.8.3.0-g40809ae-beta.
 524 2013-07-02 12:10:31 <psychophoniac> i remember it was different a few versions ago
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 526 2013-07-02 12:12:19 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: #3 on HN right now: "	Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality just got several fascinating updates "
 527 2013-07-02 12:12:29 <psychophoniac> back then it had 100% from time to time, but not constantly. strace shows it seems to repeat the same thing over and over:
 528 2013-07-02 12:12:36 <SomeoneWeird> Diablo-D3, lmfao
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 530 2013-07-02 12:13:03 <psychophoniac> http://pastebin.com/sv74fLWN
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 533 2013-07-02 12:14:34 <nsh> Diablo-D3, ...
 534 2013-07-02 12:15:02 BTC_Bear has joined
 535 2013-07-02 12:15:14 <nsh> Eliezer Yudkowsky is possibly the most annoying person on the internet
 536 2013-07-02 12:15:20 o3u has joined
 537 2013-07-02 12:15:46 <nsh> i would probably pull a muscle from kicking him in the groin too many times too vigorously if the opportunity were ever to present itself
 538 2013-07-02 12:16:45 <psychophoniac> here is a paste of the thread that belongs to it: http://pastebin.com/WhBaijgR . can someone explain why it does this?
 539 2013-07-02 12:17:14 <psychophoniac> (and if it is somewhat strange behavior)?
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 542 2013-07-02 12:18:48 <Diablo-D3> nsh: I want to beat him just for writing so slowly
 543 2013-07-02 12:19:23 <nsh> i just want to beat him.
 544 2013-07-02 12:19:40 <nsh> haven't read hpatmor, it might be good
 545 2013-07-02 12:19:53 <nsh> anything he's written on AI though deserves a ritual disembowling
 546 2013-07-02 12:20:09 <nsh> and the singularity institute is a farce
 547 2013-07-02 12:20:11 <Diablo-D3> If you believe in clean energy, only 10k signatures to go: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR
 548 2013-07-02 12:20:29 <Diablo-D3> nsh: well, the problem with the singularity is
 549 2013-07-02 12:20:31 <Diablo-D3> we WILL reach it
 550 2013-07-02 12:20:32 <nsh> (also if you believe in petitions to the whitehouse)
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 552 2013-07-02 12:20:49 <Diablo-D3> but every time we describe it, we add to the list of things it will NOT be
 553 2013-07-02 12:20:54 <nsh> "it" isn't well-defined, and any definition of "it" that we will definitely reach is trivial
 554 2013-07-02 12:20:58 <nsh> right
 555 2013-07-02 12:21:21 <Diablo-D3> but whatever it is, its going to be awesome. and terrifying. terrifyingly awesome.
 556 2013-07-02 12:21:22 <nsh> the word itself implies a mathematical pathology that is simply impossible in the human sphere
 557 2013-07-02 12:21:29 <Diablo-D3> exactly
 558 2013-07-02 12:21:37 <Diablo-D3> its like four dimensional cubes of meat
 559 2013-07-02 12:21:38 <nsh> change is increasing in velocity. that's about as much of a general statement as can be made
 560 2013-07-02 12:21:48 <Diablo-D3> delicious, but dont think to hard about them
 561 2013-07-02 12:21:54 * nsh smiles
 562 2013-07-02 12:22:22 <walch> could somebody give me a hand finding a string in the QT source?
 563 2013-07-02 12:23:05 <walch> every one of the menu items is in the localisation files, except for "Preferences…"
 564 2013-07-02 12:23:24 <Diablo-D3> walch: preferences might be from qt itself
 565 2013-07-02 12:23:44 <Diablo-D3> I dont use qt, but I know it contains a few already translated common strings
 566 2013-07-02 12:24:03 <walch> Diablo-D3: ah, I hadn't considered that. I think you're entirely correct there
 567 2013-07-02 12:24:18 <walch> I don't actually need to edit it, but I was curious where it might be defined
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 578 2013-07-02 12:44:16 <walch> Diablo-D3: there's actually another one which isn't defined in the language pack, "verify signature", which is altogether weirder
 579 2013-07-02 12:44:28 <walch> er, "verify message", rather
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 582 2013-07-02 12:48:39 <Diablo-D3> weird
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 594 2013-07-02 13:08:40 <walch> ah well, filed possibly the lowest-priority issue ever with that one.
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 628 2013-07-02 14:33:35 <matjeh> is it possible to send from a specific address with the official client without making a raw transaction?
 629 2013-07-02 14:34:02 <sipa> no
 630 2013-07-02 14:34:15 <matjeh> ok, thanks
 631 2013-07-02 14:34:17 <matjeh> :)
 632 2013-07-02 14:34:22 <sipa> (transactions don't have a from address, but you probably mean selection which coins to use)
 633 2013-07-02 14:34:31 <sipa> coin control will add that, but it's not merged yet
 634 2013-07-02 14:34:40 <matjeh> ah ok
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 648 2013-07-02 14:48:34 <jgarzik> mornin'
 649 2013-07-02 14:49:05 <walch> morning.
 650 2013-07-02 14:51:37 <SomeoneWeird> jgarzik gets double ops
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 654 2013-07-02 14:58:32 patcon has joined
 655 2013-07-02 14:58:33 * BlueMatt is too lazy to look, any false-positives from pull-tester since it was restarted?
 656 2013-07-02 14:59:05 agnostic98 has joined
 657 2013-07-02 14:59:58 <sipa> by positive you mean "failed" ?
 658 2013-07-02 15:01:23 nomailing has joined
 659 2013-07-02 15:02:24 <BlueMatt> yea
 660 2013-07-02 15:02:25 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 661 2013-07-02 15:02:31 <sipa> i haven't seen any fails
 662 2013-07-02 15:02:39 <sipa> which may mean there are false negatives :p
 663 2013-07-02 15:02:49 nomailing has quit (Client Quit)
 664 2013-07-02 15:02:54 <BlueMatt> hmm, fun
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 669 2013-07-02 15:09:28 <TD> it should be failing on the payment protocol work
 670 2013-07-02 15:09:30 <TD> as it doesn't merge
 671 2013-07-02 15:10:31 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 672 2013-07-02 15:10:37 <sipa> does it merge, or does it build from the pullreq's head?
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 676 2013-07-02 15:15:51 <BlueMatt> I thought it currently was merging
 677 2013-07-02 15:15:54 <BlueMatt> its gone back and forth
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 679 2013-07-02 15:16:42 zenny1 has joined
 680 2013-07-02 15:16:52 <jgarzik> hrm
 681 2013-07-02 15:17:04 <jgarzik> "anybody else having problems with OSX?  i've had to reindex the blockchain several times since using 0.8.3.  running 10.8.4"  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242848.msg2631946#msg2631946
 682 2013-07-02 15:17:16 * jgarzik continues to worry about this corruption stuff
 683 2013-07-02 15:17:22 zenny1 has left ()
 684 2013-07-02 15:17:43 * jgarzik wonders if leveldb uses mmap in our setup, and if that is a problem
 685 2013-07-02 15:18:14 <sipa> jgarzik: it does, on 64-bit platforms afaik
 686 2013-07-02 15:18:14 BenderCoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 687 2013-07-02 15:20:33 <jgarzik> my only other guess is locking
 688 2013-07-02 15:21:12 Neozonz has joined
 689 2013-07-02 15:22:36 <nsh> jgarzik, strace it?
 690 2013-07-02 15:22:46 Subo1978_ has joined
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 693 2013-07-02 15:23:52 <sipa> nsh: very hard to strace for something that only happens every few weeks(?)
 694 2013-07-02 15:23:54 roconnor has joined
 695 2013-07-02 15:24:10 <nsh> hmm
 696 2013-07-02 15:24:44 <nsh> someone could dedicate a VPS to running bitcoind on various versions with as much debugging and tracing info as possible
 697 2013-07-02 15:24:54 <nsh> that would be worth a few dollars a month
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 700 2013-07-02 15:26:13 <walch> nsh: you might struggle with that for OSX, the licenses only permit a virtual machine of Mac OS on Apple hardware
 701 2013-07-02 15:26:34 patcon has joined
 702 2013-07-02 15:26:49 <nsh> lol OSX
 703 2013-07-02 15:26:56 <nsh> i was talking about computers
 704 2013-07-02 15:27:01 <nsh> :P
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 710 2013-07-02 15:31:07 adrd_ has joined
 711 2013-07-02 15:32:43 <nsh> <adrd__> why can't I message anything on bitcoin-dev ?
 712 2013-07-02 15:32:56 isozyme has joined
 713 2013-07-02 15:33:40 <jgarzik> adrd_, See /title
 714 2013-07-02 15:33:44 <jgarzik> "Register to talk"
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 721 2013-07-02 15:38:08 <walch> some trivia, there's 25 different representations and formats of the bitcoin logo in the repository
 722 2013-07-02 15:38:25 cc_8 has joined
 723 2013-07-02 15:38:28 <BlueMatt> hah
 724 2013-07-02 15:38:30 <nsh> inflation...
 725 2013-07-02 15:38:39 <BlueMatt> we like deduplication 'round here
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 729 2013-07-02 15:40:14 <adrd> hi
 730 2013-07-02 15:40:21 <Ry4an> what we need is a single representation that encapsulates all 25... http://xkcd.com/927/
 731 2013-07-02 15:40:47 <adrd> I am trying to build multibit from source code, can anyone give me some help with that ?
 732 2013-07-02 15:42:07 Skav has joined
 733 2013-07-02 15:42:29 <nsh> adrd, did you try emailing any of the people who make multibit?
 734 2013-07-02 15:42:44 <adrd> no, I thought that it should be easy
 735 2013-07-02 15:42:56 <nsh> what difficulties did you have?
 736 2013-07-02 15:43:01 <adrd> I installed Eclipse and put files in it's workspace folder
 737 2013-07-02 15:43:07 <nsh> oh, java
 738 2013-07-02 15:43:10 <adrd> but I get 9412 errors
 739 2013-07-02 15:43:15 <nsh> i've suddenly stopped caring
 740 2013-07-02 15:43:15 <nsh> sorry
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 743 2013-07-02 15:43:46 <adrd> I modified it so I can make more new wallets at once - 1000 or more in 1 click
 744 2013-07-02 15:44:10 <nsh> so it worked, and then you changed things, and now it doesn't work?
 745 2013-07-02 15:44:10 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 746 2013-07-02 15:44:19 cyrozap has joined
 747 2013-07-02 15:44:27 <nsh> i would say it's a fifty-fifty split between "your problem" and loljava :)
 748 2013-07-02 15:44:28 <TD> adrd: are you using maven properly?
 749 2013-07-02 15:44:32 <adrd> no, I modified source code but I havent ever built it
 750 2013-07-02 15:44:42 <TD> adrd: it sounds like eclipse has not downloaded the dependencies for you
 751 2013-07-02 15:44:51 <adrd> I didn't download any
 752 2013-07-02 15:44:53 <TD> adrd: i'd suggest trying intellij by the way. i find it to work much better than eclipse.
 753 2013-07-02 15:44:55 agricocb has joined
 754 2013-07-02 15:45:17 <TD> adrd: no, but maven is supposed to download them for you. a good IDE will integrate with maven so it's automatic. or, you could run "mvn verify" from the command line and it'll do it that way
 755 2013-07-02 15:45:26 <adrd> I don't even know how eclipse works but I have found that .projekt files are from it
 756 2013-07-02 15:45:38 <TD> do you have any background with java development?
 757 2013-07-02 15:45:45 <adrd> no
 758 2013-07-02 15:45:48 <TD> also …… maybe a stupid question, but why would you want 1000 wallets?
 759 2013-07-02 15:45:51 <TD> it's not really intended for that
 760 2013-07-02 15:46:05 <TD> ok well that would explain why you're having trouble building it :)
 761 2013-07-02 15:46:09 <adrd> I want to check how many wallets I can make in 1 hour
 762 2013-07-02 15:46:18 <TD> … again, why?
 763 2013-07-02 15:46:29 <TD> wallets are just a bookkeeping thing, so you can keep separate balances. like separate bank accounts
 764 2013-07-02 15:46:36 <TD> what you want makes about as much sense as wanting 1000 bank accounts
 765 2013-07-02 15:46:43 <adrd> and then calculate how many years it would take me to have 1% probabliity to make duplicate wallet with someone's else money
 766 2013-07-02 15:46:47 <lupine> I can think of many uses for having 1000 bank accounts
 767 2013-07-02 15:46:52 <TD> ahh. you're talking about keys not wallets
 768 2013-07-02 15:46:52 <lupine> buuuuut that's not one
 769 2013-07-02 15:47:07 <adrd> actually yes
 770 2013-07-02 15:47:30 <TD> you can click "new" and then tell it to add 100 at a time. click the button 10 times and you have 1000 keys. however, we can already answer your question
 771 2013-07-02 15:47:37 <TD> you will never duplicate someone elses key
 772 2013-07-02 15:47:39 <TD> happy?
 773 2013-07-02 15:47:42 <lupine> it's calculable with pen and paper
 774 2013-07-02 15:47:57 <adrd> it is slower if I need to click everytime
 775 2013-07-02 15:48:07 <lupine> it's faster if you bust out a pencil
 776 2013-07-02 15:48:12 <BlueMatt> trying to duplicate keys runs into thermodynamic limits if you aren't careful...
 777 2013-07-02 15:48:17 <BlueMatt> so...no, its impossible
 778 2013-07-02 15:48:28 <adrd> I was reading about it
 779 2013-07-02 15:48:43 <adrd> one might be extremely lucky someday
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 782 2013-07-02 15:48:57 <TD> no, one might not. the numbers involved are so large you cannot imagine them
 783 2013-07-02 15:48:59 <TD> so stop trying ;)
 784 2013-07-02 15:48:59 <adrd> what would be implications of such an event ?
 785 2013-07-02 15:49:00 MobPhone has joined
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 787 2013-07-02 15:49:17 <lupine> luck
 788 2013-07-02 15:49:19 <TD> this isn't like playing the lottery
 789 2013-07-02 15:49:33 <TD> where the chance of winning is "extremely low" but you hear about people winning all the time
 790 2013-07-02 15:49:37 CCarlMTG has left ()
 791 2013-07-02 15:49:42 <lupine> much luckier than that
 792 2013-07-02 15:49:45 <TD> two people randomly recreating the same key by chance is unheard of in the history of cryptography
 793 2013-07-02 15:49:47 <adrd> I know that it is more like playing lottery with no prize and the only way you can win is by accident
 794 2013-07-02 15:49:50 ComputerCarl has joined
 795 2013-07-02 15:49:51 <BlueMatt> adrd: go read the section that starts with "One of the consequences of the second law of thermodynamics" here http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/09/the_doghouse_cr.html
 796 2013-07-02 15:49:52 bmcgee has joined
 797 2013-07-02 15:49:56 <TD> the only way it can happen, is if your random number generator is broken
 798 2013-07-02 15:50:08 <TD> adrd: no it's not like that. you cannot win. ever.
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 800 2013-07-02 15:50:25 <adrd> theoretically you can
 801 2013-07-02 15:50:28 <BlueMatt> "These numbers have nothing to do with the technology of the devices; they are the maximums that thermodynamics will allow. And they strongly imply that brute-force attacks against 256-bit keys will be infeasible until computers are built from something other than matter and occupy something other than space."
 802 2013-07-02 15:50:29 <lupine> a bitcoin address private key is 256 bits
 803 2013-07-02 15:50:43 <BlueMatt> you only have to match 192, but its essentially the same thing
 804 2013-07-02 15:50:51 <lupine> which means every time you generate a private key, your chance of it being the same as some other private key is 1 in 2^256
 805 2013-07-02 15:51:26 <lupine> > 1 other private key exists, of course, so as soon as you have that number you can very precisely calculate your chance of getting a hit each time
 806 2013-07-02 15:51:45 <lupine> and then compare current generation ability against what you'd need to have a 1% chance of a hit
 807 2013-07-02 15:51:47 Insti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 808 2013-07-02 15:52:12 <lupine> the deficit is eyebogglingly large, which is why the scheme is effective
 809 2013-07-02 15:52:19 <adrd> actually when I think about it, it would be faster to crack 1 wallet of which you know address (?)
 810 2013-07-02 15:52:24 <TD> no
 811 2013-07-02 15:52:33 <BlueMatt> just, no
 812 2013-07-02 15:52:36 <BlueMatt> just give up
 813 2013-07-02 15:52:37 <TD> please, please read the article BlueMatt linked you to
 814 2013-07-02 15:52:37 <lupine> you can't derive the private key from the public key
 815 2013-07-02 15:52:54 <BlueMatt> unless you are literally a wizard, stop now
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 817 2013-07-02 15:52:55 <adrd> even with quantum computer ?
 818 2013-07-02 15:53:05 <TD> there's no "theoretically possible" about it. you run out of energy long, long before you can try every combination
 819 2013-07-02 15:53:09 <lupine> if you get a private key that produces the same public key, you still have no guarantee that the two private keys are actually identical
 820 2013-07-02 15:53:16 michagogo has joined
 821 2013-07-02 15:53:25 <lupine> (although you can still spend the money, so that's a moot point)
 822 2013-07-02 15:53:38 <TD> a quantum computer that can find private keys from public keys is a theoretical construct - nobody has ever got even close to building one. we're talking about doing it with computers that, you know, exist
 823 2013-07-02 15:53:52 <lupine> getting quantum computers to add 2 and 2 is difficult enough
 824 2013-07-02 15:53:56 <BlueMatt> adrd: ok, so with quantum computers it doesnt really apply (the article talks about symmetric keys, bitcoin, obviously, uses asymmetric keys)
 825 2013-07-02 15:54:06 <BlueMatt> but with your computer, the statement still applies
 826 2013-07-02 15:55:55 ComputerCarl has left ()
 827 2013-07-02 15:55:55 <adrd> supposedly - if I build working quantum computer, bitcoins will stop being safe ?
 828 2013-07-02 15:56:03 <BlueMatt> yes
 829 2013-07-02 15:56:20 <TD> well, it's hard to say
 830 2013-07-02 15:56:23 <BlueMatt> if you can do that, you are a wizard (and hundreds, probably thousands of years ahead of modern science)
 831 2013-07-02 15:56:35 Skav has joined
 832 2013-07-02 15:56:36 <TD> d-wave have built something they claim to be a quantum computer. however it's apparently the wrong kind to solve crypto problems
 833 2013-07-02 15:56:44 <BlueMatt> by that point, we'll fix bitcoin to be safe against quantum computers
 834 2013-07-02 15:56:45 <TD> and they aren't even sure what it really does or how it works
 835 2013-07-02 15:57:05 <adrd> lol
 836 2013-07-02 15:57:06 <TD> so theoretically if you could build a magic machine that nobody knows how to build, you could break crypto yes
 837 2013-07-02 15:57:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 838 2013-07-02 15:57:15 <adrd> BUT
 839 2013-07-02 15:57:21 <adrd> I think there would be better uses for that :D
 840 2013-07-02 15:57:24 <TD> but then …… i could build another magic machine to destroy yours and we'd be back to square one :)
 841 2013-07-02 15:57:32 <TD> anyway, post-quantum crypto is an active research area
 842 2013-07-02 15:57:40 <nsh> oh, if it's a magic machine war you want...
 843 2013-07-02 15:57:43 <TD> there are algorithms we believe (tentatively) might be quantum resistant
 844 2013-07-02 15:57:43 <adrd> actually it could also break banking securities
 845 2013-07-02 15:57:46 * nsh fetches wand and wizard robes
 846 2013-07-02 15:57:49 <TD> they just aren't ready yet
 847 2013-07-02 15:57:49 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 848 2013-07-02 15:58:01 <TD> adrd: there are much much easier ways to rob banks than building a quantum computer
 849 2013-07-02 15:58:02 <nsh> ;;google post-quantum encryption pdf
 850 2013-07-02 15:58:03 <gribble> Post-Quantum Cryptography - ResearchGate: <http://www.researchgate.net/publication/226485899_Multivariate_Public_Key_Cryptography/file/d912f51421c4c98905.pdf>; Post-quantum cryptography: <http://pqcrypto.org/>; Introduction to post-quantum cryptography - Springer: <http://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9783540887010-c1.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-645102-p173864247>
 851 2013-07-02 15:58:27 bbrian has joined
 852 2013-07-02 15:58:36 <Arnavion> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/6062/what-effects-would-a-scalable-quantum-computer-have-on-bitcoin   and the linked thread   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133425.0
 853 2013-07-02 15:58:37 <nsh> the easiest way to rob a bank is to start one, ask satoshi
 854 2013-07-02 15:58:50 egis has joined
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 856 2013-07-02 15:58:56 <adrd> if I would build I could sell it for 1000000M$, so why would I rob a bank? :P
 857 2013-07-02 15:58:57 egis_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 858 2013-07-02 15:58:59 <TD> that's an interesting definition of "bank" you've got there
 859 2013-07-02 15:59:00 egis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 860 2013-07-02 15:59:11 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 861 2013-07-02 15:59:19 <adrd> 100B*
 862 2013-07-02 15:59:21 egis has joined
 863 2013-07-02 15:59:30 <nsh> also relevant: http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec14.html
 864 2013-07-02 15:59:58 <TD> if you wanna rob a bank these days you do it like these bosses did: http://www.eweek.com/mobile/cyber-gang-steals-45-million-in-hack-of-prepaid-debit-cards-bank-atms/
 865 2013-07-02 15:59:58 <nsh> TD: technically it's more like a railroad bond corporation
 866 2013-07-02 16:00:17 <nsh> that was a neat one, TD. (except the bit where they got caught)
 867 2013-07-02 16:00:25 <nsh> or was it another heist where they got caught
 868 2013-07-02 16:00:26 <BlueMatt> TD: they were caught, for the most part, iirc
 869 2013-07-02 16:00:28 <TD> yes. a crime with no flaw, except for the being caught
 870 2013-07-02 16:00:33 <adrd> so anyways - can anyone build for me, or tell me step by step how to build multibit?
 871 2013-07-02 16:00:49 <TD> although that said, we have no idea if any of them got away
 872 2013-07-02 16:01:00 <TD> given they were able to pump money freely for months, i'd imagine there was more than the ones that were arrested
 873 2013-07-02 16:01:25 <TD> adrd: (1) go grab apache maven, unzip it. (2) add it to your path. (3) run the command i gave you above. (4) consider trying intellij and telling it where to find your maven install in the settings, then it will all happen automagically
 874 2013-07-02 16:01:49 bmcgee has joined
 875 2013-07-02 16:02:11 <TD> adrd: at the moment you're like trying to build an application without "make" installed. so unsurprisingly, it doesn't work too well
 876 2013-07-02 16:02:22 <adrd> :D
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 880 2013-07-02 16:03:12 <TD> nsh: btw:  "Several attacks of this nature have occurred in the past few years," said Tom Cross, director of security research at Lancope.
 881 2013-07-02 16:03:23 <nsh> sweet
 882 2013-07-02 16:03:30 <nsh> up the rebels!
 883 2013-07-02 16:03:34 <TD> nsh: we only hear about the ones that were successful. given the shitty IT standards at most banks and other companies i bet it happens all the time and covered up
 884 2013-07-02 16:03:46 <nsh> cost of doing business
 885 2013-07-02 16:03:56 <nsh> we don't hear about all the backhanders to the mafia either
 886 2013-07-02 16:04:22 <nsh> "nice 50 year old computer infrastructure you've got there, jenkins. would be a shame if anything were to happen to it..."
 887 2013-07-02 16:04:29 <TD> adrd: there is one caveat to what we told you earlier. it's all true assuming that the ec discrete log problem is in fact, hard
 888 2013-07-02 16:04:42 <TD> adrd: there's very strong reasons to believe it is, but nobody ever proved it (same as for rsa)
 889 2013-07-02 16:04:59 <nsh> proving it would be a pretty big deal
 890 2013-07-02 16:05:05 <nsh> so if you have a free weekend...
 891 2013-07-02 16:05:05 <TD> adrd: it's theoretically possible that one day there'd be a breakthrough in maths that lets you find private keys from public. it's just it never happened for 30+ years and nobody even has any theories
 892 2013-07-02 16:05:32 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 893 2013-07-02 16:05:32 <adrd> I know, it is one of the millenium problems if i'm not mistaken
 894 2013-07-02 16:05:39 cyrozap has quit (Quit: Bye!)
 895 2013-07-02 16:06:59 <adrd> TD it was mvn verify ?
 896 2013-07-02 16:07:20 <TD> yeah or you can also just do "mvn compile" or "mvn package". i think verify is equivalent to package + run all the unit tests, if there are any
 897 2013-07-02 16:07:54 <TD> that will build a bunch of classes and JARs, but you would still need to tell eclipse about maven and that it should be used. otherwise it won't know where to find all the dependencies and you'll have two competing build systems at once.
 898 2013-07-02 16:08:00 <TD> unfortunately as i don't use eclipse, i cannot tell you how to do that
 899 2013-07-02 16:08:38 fishfish has joined
 900 2013-07-02 16:10:23 <adrd> ERROR: JAVA_HOME not found in your environment.
 901 2013-07-02 16:10:42 <daybyter> export JAVA_HOME= ...
 902 2013-07-02 16:10:53 <daybyter> (whereever your jvm is)
 903 2013-07-02 16:12:47 <nsh> why anyone would do java if they weren't being paid for it is beyond me
 904 2013-07-02 16:12:59 <jgarzik> ;p
 905 2013-07-02 16:14:13 <daybyter> I like Java a lot...
 906 2013-07-02 16:14:21 <adrd> I can't find where it is installed :/
 907 2013-07-02 16:14:24 <daybyter> code my trading software in java...
 908 2013-07-02 16:14:29 <daybyter> linux?
 909 2013-07-02 16:14:35 <daybyter> which java
 910 2013-07-02 16:14:45 <daybyter> or locate java
 911 2013-07-02 16:14:47 <adrd> java_home in windows
 912 2013-07-02 16:14:57 <daybyter> oh windows...
 913 2013-07-02 16:15:15 <daybyter> I'm not into exotic OS's
 914 2013-07-02 16:15:27 <adrd> but you heard about it ? :P
 915 2013-07-02 16:15:57 <nsh> windows: written in brainfuck by fuckbrains
 916 2013-07-02 16:16:35 <adrd> don't worry, 1-2 more "great" new versions and people will start to swtich
 917 2013-07-02 16:20:15 <adrd> TD: where do I change JAVA_HOME dir ?
 918 2013-07-02 16:20:31 <TD> did you actually install java?
 919 2013-07-02 16:20:35 <adrd> yes
 920 2013-07-02 16:20:40 <TD> but you don't know where it is?
 921 2013-07-02 16:20:43 <TD> try looking in c:
 922 2013-07-02 16:20:45 <TD> er sorry
 923 2013-07-02 16:20:50 <TD> c:/program files
 924 2013-07-02 16:21:00 Neozonz has joined
 925 2013-07-02 16:21:07 <adrd> I have found it
 926 2013-07-02 16:21:14 <TD> then do:   set JAVA_HOME='c:/program files/.…..'
 927 2013-07-02 16:21:22 <TD> but it's really better to set up a good IDE especially on windows
 928 2013-07-02 16:21:25 <TD> the command line there is rather weak
 929 2013-07-02 16:21:53 <daybyter> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2619584/how-to-set-java-home-on-windows-7
 930 2013-07-02 16:22:10 <TD> oh yes. it's better to use the windows gui, right
 931 2013-07-02 16:22:56 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 932 2013-07-02 16:24:54 <adrd> should I use jre6 or jre7 ?
 933 2013-07-02 16:25:55 <TD> later versions are better but both will work
 934 2013-07-02 16:26:27 <adrd> neither works
 935 2013-07-02 16:27:10 <TD> and how does it not work?
 936 2013-07-02 16:27:23 <TD> i'd suggest starting by getting to the point where you can compile a hello world java ap
 937 2013-07-02 16:27:28 <TD> and then trying to build multibit afterwards
 938 2013-07-02 16:27:37 <TD> there are lots of tutorials for how to set up java and run a simple app online
 939 2013-07-02 16:27:49 <adrd> I'm not interested
 940 2013-07-02 16:28:00 <adrd> TD mayby I will send you files and you will compile it for me ? :)
 941 2013-07-02 16:28:05 <TD> nice try
 942 2013-07-02 16:28:28 <adrd> because I don't have so much time now
 943 2013-07-02 16:28:30 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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 945 2013-07-02 16:29:06 <adrd> I guess I will come back to it other day
 946 2013-07-02 16:30:27 <daybyter> Isn't there a jar for this app?
 947 2013-07-02 16:30:52 Diablo-D3 has joined
 948 2013-07-02 16:32:06 <TD> he wants to compile it himself
 949 2013-07-02 16:32:11 <TD> so yes, obviously there are executable jars.
 950 2013-07-02 16:32:14 <TD> but they don't help :)
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 952 2013-07-02 16:32:37 <daybyter> if you have a jar, it's just java -jar <jarfile>
 953 2013-07-02 16:33:10 <daybyter> or maybe this project as an ant file...?
 954 2013-07-02 16:33:15 <daybyter> ant run
 955 2013-07-02 16:33:23 <daybyter> then...
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 957 2013-07-02 16:34:34 <adrd> this folder looks like that: http://i.imgur.com/NdHMLbi.png
 958 2013-07-02 16:35:11 justusranvier_ is now known as justusranvier
 959 2013-07-02 16:35:55 <daybyter> so I would read the readme file...
 960 2013-07-02 16:36:07 <daybyter> and maybe look in the src folder for a build file...
 961 2013-07-02 16:36:58 <adrd> sth like: "The exe.xml is used to assemble the main executable jar: multibit-exe.jar"
 962 2013-07-02 16:37:02 <adrd> ???
 963 2013-07-02 16:38:22 MobiusL has joined
 964 2013-07-02 16:38:25 <TD> i think you need to take some java tutorials before doing this
 965 2013-07-02 16:38:29 <daybyter> What is in the xml file?
 966 2013-07-02 16:38:42 <daybyter> maybe I can help you a bit...
 967 2013-07-02 16:39:05 <daybyter> I write my trading software in java, so I know at least some java...
 968 2013-07-02 16:39:12 <adrd> http://pastebin.com/xfjVj09u
 969 2013-07-02 16:39:54 <adrd> "The important targets are:  mvn clean package  which will package the MultiBit project into multibit-x.y.jar where x.y is the current version number. This is suitable for local development work.  If you want to generate a complete set of multi-platform installers (Windows, Mac and Linux) you  use the following command  maven clean install  After some processing, you will have the folowing artifacts in the target directory:  + an e
 970 2013-07-02 16:40:13 <daybyter> and?
 971 2013-07-02 16:40:33 <daybyter> Did you try maven clean install?
 972 2013-07-02 16:40:33 <adrd> no idea
 973 2013-07-02 16:40:56 <daybyter> or maven clean package?
 974 2013-07-02 16:40:58 <adrd> I think it's enough for me today ^^
 975 2013-07-02 16:41:13 <adrd> I have started but my JAVE_HOME path is wrong and I can't change it
 976 2013-07-02 16:41:17 <adrd> or I need to restart
 977 2013-07-02 16:41:31 <daybyter> you are in a shell?
 978 2013-07-02 16:41:39 <daybyter> set JAVA_HOME=
 979 2013-07-02 16:41:45 <daybyter> then maven clean package
 980 2013-07-02 16:42:23 <daybyter> what is this multibit app?
 981 2013-07-02 16:42:27 fishfish has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
 982 2013-07-02 16:42:29 <daybyter> what does it do?
 983 2013-07-02 16:44:45 <adrd> it's bitcoin wallet
 984 2013-07-02 16:45:33 <daybyter> oh...nice!
 985 2013-07-02 16:45:49 <daybyter> maybe I should use that too...
 986 2013-07-02 16:47:02 FredEE has joined
 987 2013-07-02 16:49:47 <Luke-Jr> someone is spamming the network with 248 BTC :/
 988 2013-07-02 16:50:53 smickles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 989 2013-07-02 16:50:55 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: spamming in what way?
 990 2013-07-02 16:50:59 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 991 2013-07-02 16:51:01 phungus has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 992 2013-07-02 16:51:23 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: sending it to themselves over and over
 993 2013-07-02 16:51:28 <Luke-Jr> #bitcoin-watch
 994 2013-07-02 16:51:41 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 995 2013-07-02 16:52:21 <sturles> Paying fees or not?
 996 2013-07-02 16:52:23 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Oh, taking advantage of the priority bug to get it included multiple times in a block for free?
 997 2013-07-02 16:52:43 <Luke-Jr> what priority bug?
 998 2013-07-02 16:53:35 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: We treat zero-fee transactions as though they were a block old within the block creation code, so any tx > 144BTC can be included over and over again for free.
 999 2013-07-02 16:53:55 <kinlo> mmmz
1000 2013-07-02 16:53:58 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Someone was exploiting that a month or two ago too - I should have written a patch...
1001 2013-07-02 16:54:00 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1002 2013-07-02 16:54:15 <kinlo> that should have been fixed in 0.8.2 then :)
1003 2013-07-02 16:54:29 <petertodd> kinlo: why?
1004 2013-07-02 16:54:42 <kinlo> now the blocks will be filled with nonsense
1005 2013-07-02 16:55:06 <kinlo> hmmz, that will only fill up the free area, so basicly all transactions with no fee will be delayed, but other transactions should not be impacted, right?
1006 2013-07-02 16:55:08 <petertodd> kinlo: oh, I thought you meant 0.8.2 fixed it for some reason
1007 2013-07-02 16:55:20 <kinlo> no :)
1008 2013-07-02 16:55:20 <petertodd> kinlo: Yeah, just the free area, so it's not *that* bad.
1009 2013-07-02 16:55:38 mappum has joined
1010 2013-07-02 16:55:51 <kinlo> still would be nice to have a patch pushed out to the major pools so the other free transactions happen too
1011 2013-07-02 16:56:17 <petertodd> kinlo: Well, they just need to outbid the spammer... :P
1012 2013-07-02 16:57:06 <kinlo> yeah, but as there is no code to figure out your place in the queue, people will not get a suggestion from their clients to increase fee's so some transactions will be blocked tis way
1013 2013-07-02 16:57:29 fishfish has joined
1014 2013-07-02 16:57:31 <petertodd> ...and when people screw up, there is little they can do but sit and hope their tx gets mined anyway.
1015 2013-07-02 16:57:41 <kinlo> indeed
1016 2013-07-02 16:58:25 <petertodd> Speaking of, I just got my second try at a child-pays-for-parent mempool working - seems stable.
1017 2013-07-02 16:58:48 <kinlo> I should have a look at that code too
1018 2013-07-02 16:59:30 <petertodd> I'll put it on github tonight under the branch "greedy-child-pays-for-parent"
1019 2013-07-02 17:00:04 <petertodd> Got some unit-tests too; haven't tackled CreateNewBlock() yet although in theory the old code would work fine as-is. (but with no benifit)
1020 2013-07-02 17:00:30 adrd has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1022 2013-07-02 17:03:20 <walch> is there any explanation for the transaction spam that Luke-Jr mentioned?
1023 2013-07-02 17:03:31 <petertodd> walch: scroll up
1024 2013-07-02 17:03:41 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1025 2013-07-02 17:03:53 <walch> petertodd: I see how it's possible, but not the reason for actually doing it
1026 2013-07-02 17:04:09 <kinlo> walch: to sabotage the network? :)
1027 2013-07-02 17:04:36 <petertodd> walch: "Because I can."
1028 2013-07-02 17:05:42 <walch> if I had US$25k in bitcoin, I sure as hell wouldn't be risking it by using it to spam the network
1029 2013-07-02 17:06:22 <Luke-Jr> it would be funny if he lost it due to a bitflip or something
1030 2013-07-02 17:06:26 <kinlo> walch: he's currently making it very hard to get free transactions trough.  However, that's by design in a way, if you want your transaction to go trough you just need to give a fee
1031 2013-07-02 17:06:28 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
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1033 2013-07-02 17:08:06 <walch> there's a lot of creative ways they could lose their money. the script hiccups and doesn't record a private key, the power goes out, there's any number of things that could go wrong
1034 2013-07-02 17:08:29 <walch> risking US$25k for less than 1MB of spam, that's a hell of a gamble
1035 2013-07-02 17:10:13 btsec has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1036 2013-07-02 17:14:00 <petertodd> Is there a write-up or anything on how the threads and locks works in bitcoin-qt? Seems I have a deadlockin my mempool code; last multithread code I wrote was literally a decade ago with pthreads...
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1042 2013-07-02 17:24:06 <Diablo-D3> GODDAMNIT
1043 2013-07-02 17:24:08 <Diablo-D3> WHY ISNT IT THE THRID YET
1044 2013-07-02 17:24:25 <Diablo-D3> need more hpmor need more hpmor need more hpmor need more hpmor
1045 2013-07-02 17:25:06 <gmaxwell> wrong channel. :P
1046 2013-07-02 17:25:50 <gmaxwell> [ObSemiOnTopic] Go offer EY 50 BTC to release the rest at once.
1047 2013-07-02 17:26:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: any nearby channel is the right channel
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1058 2013-07-02 17:45:27 <maaku> Diablo-D3: you just got 3 more chapters, isn't it a little early to be complaining?
1059 2013-07-02 17:45:49 <Diablo-D3> those 3 chapters lasted me about 10 minues.
1060 2013-07-02 17:46:03 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1061 2013-07-02 17:46:20 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I assume hes doing the final touches on those atm anyhow
1062 2013-07-02 17:46:21 Insti has joined
1063 2013-07-02 17:46:36 <kinlo> what game are you talking about?
1064 2013-07-02 17:46:42 <Diablo-D3> game?
1065 2013-07-02 17:46:47 anarchy5 has joined
1066 2013-07-02 17:46:49 <Diablo-D3> its a book, kinlo
1067 2013-07-02 17:46:54 <kinlo> close enough
1068 2013-07-02 17:46:57 <Diablo-D3> harry potter and the methods of rationality
1069 2013-07-02 17:47:19 <maaku> kinlo: http://hpmor.com/
1070 2013-07-02 17:47:19 <Diablo-D3> imagine harry potter being raised by a loving family that fed him a diet full of science and hard science fiction
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1074 2013-07-02 17:51:26 <kinlo> mmmz :)
1075 2013-07-02 17:51:35 <kinlo> perhaps I should read that if I find the time
1076 2013-07-02 17:52:21 <kinlo> anyway, afk
1077 2013-07-02 17:56:33 <TD> ah yes
1078 2013-07-02 17:56:36 <TD> i've read most of that
1079 2013-07-02 17:56:37 <TD> quite entertaining
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1084 2013-07-02 17:57:30 <deadweasel> thx fer that Diablo-D3, just shared with some very happy FanFiction consumers.
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1117 2013-07-02 19:00:12 <BlueMatt> only time locked txn that are currently locked are nonstd, right?
1118 2013-07-02 19:00:37 <petertodd> BlueMatt: correct
1119 2013-07-02 19:01:25 <midnightmagic> ;;seen gavinandresen
1120 2013-07-02 19:01:25 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 days, 23 hours, 28 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> speaking of low-hanging fruit… is the pull-tester still broken?
1121 2013-07-02 19:01:46 <BlueMatt> no, no its not
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1125 2013-07-02 19:05:04 <petertodd> BlueMatt: ?
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1127 2013-07-02 19:07:07 <BlueMatt> pull-tester is working
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1129 2013-07-02 19:09:06 <petertodd> ah
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1180 2013-07-02 20:51:29 <TD> i was on sky news!
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1219 2013-07-02 21:40:25 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
1220 2013-07-02 21:47:37 <EPiSKiNG-> anyone care to take a look at this TX and tell me what's taking so long?
1221 2013-07-02 21:47:37 <EPiSKiNG-> https://blockchain.info/tx/2b0a0782288abbac129ddaf46afc148742ad1896d43737d5f839efc03fc8e55e
1222 2013-07-02 21:48:02 <EPiSKiNG-> 3.8 BTC with no fee.. but it's been nearly 24 hours with no confirmations, and there aren't a lot of input addresses....
1223 2013-07-02 21:51:08 Julius129 has joined
1224 2013-07-02 21:51:13 <Ry4an> EPiSKiNG-: as I understand it someone's "flooding" with no-fee transactions, so anything w/o a fee is taking extra-long.
1225 2013-07-02 21:51:47 <EPiSKiNG-> ah...
1226 2013-07-02 21:51:51 <EPiSKiNG-> how long has that been going on?
1227 2013-07-02 21:52:26 <Ry4an> I dunno I saw it mentioned in here quite a few hours ago, but you can probably find the transactions if you look for 'em
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1243 2013-07-02 22:14:02 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD how'd it go? Also, a video would be neat
1244 2013-07-02 22:14:02 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1277 2013-07-02 23:13:51 <BW^-> hi guys :)
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1285 2013-07-02 23:24:57 <BW^-> how does the syncing all from the first block, to a new bitcoind installation, work?
1286 2013-07-02 23:25:55 <michagogo> BW^-: In what way?
1287 2013-07-02 23:26:38 <michagogo> BW^-: What exactly do you mean?
1288 2013-07-02 23:26:44 <BW^-> michagogo: to start with, using what protocol primitives is this done - the party that wants to download is using getblocks right?
1289 2013-07-02 23:26:57 <michagogo> AFAIK, yeah
1290 2013-07-02 23:27:07 <BW^-> michagogo: just the general syncing/download/gossip to me please process for a newly installed node to get up to date
1291 2013-07-02 23:27:13 PrimeStunna_ has joined
1292 2013-07-02 23:27:56 <BW^-> michagogo: do you have any clue what parameters (hash count, block locator hashes, hash_stop) that absolutely first call, and then subsequent calls, are made with?
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1295 2013-07-02 23:28:15 <BW^-> michagogo: when reading the protocol spec for 'getblocks', I don't get in what order the response is supposed to be ...
1296 2013-07-02 23:28:34 <michagogo> Well, I'd assume that the first one is asking with the genesis block
1297 2013-07-02 23:28:51 <michagogo> And the response is an inv
1298 2013-07-02 23:29:38 <BW^-> michagogo: aha
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1302 2013-07-02 23:29:55 <michagogo> And then the inv is responded to with getdata, and that's responded to with block
1303 2013-07-02 23:29:57 owowo has joined
1304 2013-07-02 23:30:04 <michagogo> (just looking at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification here)
1305 2013-07-02 23:30:12 Namworld has joined
1306 2013-07-02 23:30:17 <michagogo> getblocks
1307 2013-07-02 23:30:17 <michagogo> Return an inv packet containing the list of blocks starting right after the last known hash in the block locator object, up to hash_stop or 500 blocks, whichever comes first.
1308 2013-07-02 23:30:54 <BW^-> michagogo: so, "locator hash" should be.. the hash identifier of the block you want to download?
1309 2013-07-02 23:31:22 <BW^-> michagogo: so then, "hash count" to the call would be 1, "block locator hashes" would be the hash of the genesis block, and "hash_stop" would be unspecified because we want as much as the peer got?
1310 2013-07-02 23:31:30 bbbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds)
1311 2013-07-02 23:31:40 <michagogo> I believe so.
1312 2013-07-02 23:31:53 <michagogo> (sounds right to me, looking at the wiki article)
1313 2013-07-02 23:31:55 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1314 2013-07-02 23:32:59 <BW^-> mhm
1315 2013-07-02 23:33:54 <michagogo> BW^-: I mean, easiest way to figure it out would be to start up an instance and use wireshark
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1317 2013-07-02 23:35:23 <BW^-> michagogo: so in response, the peer will respond with 500 blocks sent via an 'inv' repsonse?
1318 2013-07-02 23:35:28 <BW^-> michagogo: that's a good point.
1319 2013-07-02 23:35:37 <michagogo> I believe so.
1320 2013-07-02 23:35:52 <BW^-> ah, i don't have any environment for this currently.
1321 2013-07-02 23:36:36 <michagogo> Alice says to Bob, "I think block <genesis> is the newest. If you disagree, tell me what's newer, up to 500 blocks:
1322 2013-07-02 23:36:39 <michagogo> s/:/"/
1323 2013-07-02 23:37:18 <michagogo> Bob says to Alice, "I have these blocks: block1 block2 block3...block500"
1324 2013-07-02 23:37:49 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1325 2013-07-02 23:37:52 <BW^-> michagogo: aha. so in this way anyhow, we have like a download process through a recursive  iteration.
1326 2013-07-02 23:37:52 <michagogo> (getblocks and inv)
1327 2013-07-02 23:38:10 <BW^-> michagogo: so then, this way the peer will download all known blocks from any and all forks right?
1328 2013-07-02 23:38:22 <michagogo> Alice says to Bob, "please send me block1, block2,...block500" (getdata)
1329 2013-07-02 23:38:29 <BW^-> michagogo: i.e., it'll get everything there is to know whatsoever.
1330 2013-07-02 23:38:33 <BW^-> on this non-test net
1331 2013-07-02 23:38:38 <michagogo> BW^-: I'm actually not sure
1332 2013-07-02 23:39:00 <michagogo> I don't know if the inv in response to getblocks will just include longest chain, or all blocks
1333 2013-07-02 23:39:05 <BW^-> michagogo: in response, the peer would issue something-like- 500 new getblocks .. i'm not sure how they say if they have children or not
1334 2013-07-02 23:39:24 <BW^-> michagogo: that's a pretty key detail
1335 2013-07-02 23:39:37 <BW^-> michagogo: i'd believe it's all blocks and not just the longest chain
1336 2013-07-02 23:39:45 <michagogo> I don't know.
1337 2013-07-02 23:39:55 <BW^-> michagogo: isn't it that, a bitcoind installation starts to be usable only at first when it downloaded *everything* from the network once?
1338 2013-07-02 23:40:22 <michagogo> BW^-: Well, if it's just longest chain, then if an orphan block is inv'd, I think the client will get it, and then proceed to getblocks its parent
1339 2013-07-02 23:40:29 <BW^-> michagogo: and also, when committing a transaction, there's some kind of logic that helps it get hooked on to the longest chain somehow
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1341 2013-07-02 23:41:09 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|PiZZaMaN2K
1342 2013-07-02 23:42:40 <sipa> a block is announces when it becomes the new tip of the best chain
1343 2013-07-02 23:42:45 <sipa> *announced
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1345 2013-07-02 23:43:06 <sipa> peers fetch any block they do not know already (in the main chain or not)
1346 2013-07-02 23:43:39 <sipa> if the resulting block does not refer to a know parent, the parents are fetched, and the block kept in memory until then
1347 2013-07-02 23:44:25 <michagogo> Right, that's more or less what I said. The question is, will a getblocks return an inv for blocks that aren't on the best chain?
1348 2013-07-02 23:44:44 <sipa> not afaik
1349 2013-07-02 23:44:48 <michagogo> For example, say block 300 has 2 blocks built on it, 301 and 301'
1350 2013-07-02 23:44:59 <michagogo> with the blockchain continuing from 301 to 302
1351 2013-07-02 23:45:17 <michagogo> Will a new client be sent 301'?
1352 2013-07-02 23:45:59 <michagogo> (also, can you confirm or correct "[02:03:21] <BW^-> michagogo: so then, "hash count" to the call would be 1, "block locator hashes" would be the hash of the genesis block, and "hash_stop" would be unspecified because we want as much as the peer got?"?)
1353 2013-07-02 23:46:05 <BW^-> sipa: is it correct that on a blank installation, bitcoind bootstraps the blockchain by sending a "getblocks" call to its found peers, for the genesis block?
1354 2013-07-02 23:46:14 <BW^-> if so, where can I find the genesis block's hash?
1355 2013-07-02 23:46:22 <sipa> the genesis block is hardcoded
1356 2013-07-02 23:46:29 <sipa> you do not download it
1357 2013-07-02 23:46:32 <sipa> but you could
1358 2013-07-02 23:46:35 <michagogo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block
1359 2013-07-02 23:47:19 <sipa> michagogo: which case are you talking about
1360 2013-07-02 23:47:38 <michagogo> sipa: the very first getblocks request of a new client
1361 2013-07-02 23:47:41 <sipa> just checked, getblocks only ever sends blocks that are currently part of what the peer believes to be the best chain
1362 2013-07-02 23:47:47 bbbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1363 2013-07-02 23:48:06 <michagogo> Hmm.
1364 2013-07-02 23:48:23 <michagogo> So not every client has every block that's been mined
1365 2013-07-02 23:48:24 <sipa> and yes, the very first getblocks will only send the genesis block, and no stop
1366 2013-07-02 23:48:27 <sipa> so?
1367 2013-07-02 23:48:35 <michagogo> I'm trying to think for a sec
1368 2013-07-02 23:49:47 <michagogo> Oh, but any peer *could* make its peers get orphaned blocks, by simply inv-ing a block that's branched off the main chain, right?
1369 2013-07-02 23:50:08 <sipa> yes
1370 2013-07-02 23:50:11 <michagogo> And then anyone who gets that inv will request the block, and any leading up to it
1371 2013-07-02 23:50:13 <michagogo> ?
1372 2013-07-02 23:50:16 <sipa> yes
1373 2013-07-02 23:50:19 <BW^-> michagogo,sipa: ahaa, the genesis block is hardcoded in chainparams.cpp :112-137 !! :D
1374 2013-07-02 23:50:20 <michagogo> k
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1376 2013-07-02 23:50:25 <sipa> though there are safety checks
1377 2013-07-02 23:50:32 <michagogo> Like?
1378 2013-07-02 23:50:37 <sipa> there are limits on what PoW is possible with which timestamp
1379 2013-07-02 23:50:49 <michagogo> Ah
1380 2013-07-02 23:50:51 <sipa> as the difficulty can drop max 4x per 2016 blocks
1381 2013-07-02 23:51:05 <sipa> so given checkpoints, you can calculate the minimum current difficulty
1382 2013-07-02 23:51:11 <michagogo> Right
1383 2013-07-02 23:51:22 <michagogo> That's just part of block verification though, right?
1384 2013-07-02 23:51:26 <BW^-> PoW?
1385 2013-07-02 23:51:29 <sipa> proof of work
1386 2013-07-02 23:51:40 <BW^-> ah
1387 2013-07-02 23:51:42 <BW^-> two questions
1388 2013-07-02 23:51:44 <sipa> yes, but it's the one check that can be done before you have a block's parent
1389 2013-07-02 23:52:07 <sipa> so you can reject stupid attacks immediately before even bothering to store them in your database or requesting parents
1390 2013-07-02 23:52:11 <michagogo> Oh, is the diff-oh, ofc -- it's the hash
1391 2013-07-02 23:52:34 <sipa> the difficulty is stored in the block header
1392 2013-07-02 23:52:39 <sipa> otherwise this wouldn't be possible
1393 2013-07-02 23:52:57 <michagogo> Block header? Isn't it just the hash?
1394 2013-07-02 23:53:05 <BW^-> 1) what is the logic of getblocks?: is it, that you give it a set of block hashes that you want to know what block followed directly *after* it? so, from all these blocks requested, getblocks is responded to with some random 500 blocks following all those blocks queried for???
1395 2013-07-02 23:53:12 <michagogo> Oh, right -- what difficulty the block was tried for
1396 2013-07-02 23:53:17 <BW^-> or like, what kind of sense as a data retrieval mechanism does getblocks make
1397 2013-07-02 23:53:26 <sipa> BW^-: the *next* 500
1398 2013-07-02 23:53:28 <sipa> you need them in order
1399 2013-07-02 23:53:46 <michagogo> In what use case would you send multiple blockhashes in getblocks?
1400 2013-07-02 23:53:49 <BW^-> sipa: so you get an 'inv' response with the *next* 500 in sequential order, in ascending order of creation order/time so to speak?
1401 2013-07-02 23:54:00 <michagogo> Wait, nvm
1402 2013-07-02 23:54:04 <sipa> BW^-: in order of increasing height
1403 2013-07-02 23:54:08 <BW^-> super
1404 2013-07-02 23:54:08 <BW^-> and
1405 2013-07-02 23:54:17 <sipa> BW^-: time is not necessarily increasing
1406 2013-07-02 23:54:26 <michagogo> Er, wait -- looks like it can be
1407 2013-07-02 23:54:26 <BW^-> sipa: but, getblocks allows you to make a query for *many blocks* at the same time
1408 2013-07-02 23:54:27 <sipa> BW^-: so the block locator (the list of hashes sent) tells the peer which chain you already have
1409 2013-07-02 23:54:42 * michagogo is confused
1410 2013-07-02 23:54:43 <BW^-> sipa: does the other peer send you one 'inv' response *per "locator block hash"* that you included in your getblocks call - 500 for each?
1411 2013-07-02 23:54:44 <sipa> BW^-: using this, the peer finds the latest branching point
1412 2013-07-02 23:54:55 <sipa> BW^-: no
1413 2013-07-02 23:55:06 <sipa> BW^-: the locator is used to find the fork between you and him
1414 2013-07-02 23:55:07 <michagogo> BW^-: an inv can have up to 50,000 parameters
1415 2013-07-02 23:55:19 <BW^-> hm
1416 2013-07-02 23:55:21 <sipa> and the first 500 hashes of blocks after that forking point are sent
1417 2013-07-02 23:55:31 <BW^-> i'm slightly confused - will ask the other question first and then get back to this one:
1418 2013-07-02 23:55:39 <michagogo> sipa: So why would you send a getblocks with more than one locator?
1419 2013-07-02 23:55:48 <sipa> michagogo: there is only one locator
1420 2013-07-02 23:55:54 <sipa> michagogo: but a locator is a set of block hashes
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1422 2013-07-02 23:56:03 <sipa> michagogo: if you'd just send your own tip block hash
1423 2013-07-02 23:56:09 <BW^-> sipa: 2) you said that if a client gets a block that is an orphan in its perspective/knowledge, then it will do 'getblocks' for its parents and keep it in RAM until it got its parent connection all the way to blocks that it does know of
1424 2013-07-02 23:56:14 <sipa> michagogo: and there was a fork, the peer wouldn't have any clue what you know
1425 2013-07-02 23:56:29 <sipa> BW^-: indeed
1426 2013-07-02 23:56:32 <michagogo> sipa: So which block hashes are sent in getblocks?
1427 2013-07-02 23:56:33 <BW^-> can't this consume enormous amounts of RAM? and, time?  and, how can getblocks be used for this purpose, when it always returns the *next* blocks and not the previous???
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1429 2013-07-02 23:57:00 <sipa> BW^-: thanks to the early PoW check it's virtually impossible to create fake blocks that would trigger this mechanism
1430 2013-07-02 23:57:06 <BW^-> i mean, say you created a new bitcoind installation now and it gets a block broadcasted to it early in on during its blockchain download/synchronization work - that would be like a worstcase scenario wouldn't it?
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1432 2013-07-02 23:57:23 <sipa> BW^-: not at all, it just works
1433 2013-07-02 23:57:44 <sipa> BW^-: you send him "ohai, i only know <hashofgenesis>", and the peer will reply with the first 500 block hashes
1434 2013-07-02 23:57:49 <sipa> of blocks 1-500
1435 2013-07-02 23:58:04 <sipa> after that, you ask him "ohai, i have up to <hashofblock500>, moar???"
1436 2013-07-02 23:58:09 <BW^-> sipa: aha, so that peer will get an 'inv' response with those 500
1437 2013-07-02 23:58:11 <sipa> and you get invs for 501-999
1438 2013-07-02 23:58:19 <sipa> 501-1000, sorry
1439 2013-07-02 23:58:19 <michagogo> 501-1000, no?
1440 2013-07-02 23:58:21 <michagogo> yeah
1441 2013-07-02 23:58:40 <sipa> michagogo: the block locator contains the last 10 block hashes, and from there, exponentially larger gaps
1442 2013-07-02 23:58:41 <BW^-> sipa: so this is always a question of a sequential retrieval within what the peer at the other end knows to be the longest chain currently?
1443 2013-07-02 23:58:41 <BW^-> hmm
1444 2013-07-02 23:59:00 <michagogo> sipa: Ah, so it's a general picture of what blocks you have?
1445 2013-07-02 23:59:03 <sipa> indeed
1446 2013-07-02 23:59:20 <michagogo> Hmm
1447 2013-07-02 23:59:27 <michagogo> What if you had a malicious peer
1448 2013-07-02 23:59:37 <BW^-> sipa: what if during this sync process, the other peer changed its mind about which branch is the longest one
1449 2013-07-02 23:59:38 <michagogo> That claimed that there weren't any blocks past a certain point
1450 2013-07-02 23:59:59 <michagogo> And then inv'ed a newer block