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  39 2013-07-04 01:08:09 <Luke-Jr> ProcessMessage(getdata, 3241 bytes) FAILED
  40 2013-07-04 01:08:12 <Luke-Jr> any ideas on that? O.o
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  47 2013-07-04 01:22:47 <jrmithdobbs> is bdb completely dropped yet?
  48 2013-07-04 01:23:01 <jrmithdobbs> or is it still used for addr and such?
  49 2013-07-04 01:23:30 <jrmithdobbs> cause oracle just converted it to agplv3 so if it hasn't been already, dropping it just kind of became a priority if y'all want to keep distributing binaries =/
  50 2013-07-04 01:23:42 <jrmithdobbs> assholes.
  51 2013-07-04 01:23:52 <michagogo> jrmithdobbs: It's used for the wallet
  52 2013-07-04 01:24:03 <jrmithdobbs> ya thought so
  53 2013-07-04 01:24:08 <jrmithdobbs> just been a while since I've looked at the code.
  54 2013-07-04 01:24:11 wei_ has joined
  55 2013-07-04 01:24:26 <gmaxwell> And we'll have to carry it for years for compatiblity. But that doesn't mean we need to use newer versions.
  56 2013-07-04 01:24:37 <michagogo> jrmithdobbs: Also, AFAIK once it's released under a license they can't suddenly say "you can't use this anymore" unless the original license says they can
  57 2013-07-04 01:24:45 <jrmithdobbs> dep needs to be gutted out though before anything starts shipping the new version =/
  58 2013-07-04 01:24:59 <jrmithdobbs> michagogo: they definitely can for new versions.
  59 2013-07-04 01:25:02 <michagogo> Yeah, they can release new versions under a different license
  60 2013-07-04 01:25:08 <michagogo> But we can just not upgrade
  61 2013-07-04 01:25:10 <warren> In my experience the wallet misbehaves with really new versions of bdb.
  62 2013-07-04 01:26:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: years may not be an option if ubuntu bumps the version included as that'd require every p2p node to provide downloads of the binaries they're running
  63 2013-07-04 01:26:32 <jrmithdobbs> at least, every linux p2p node
  64 2013-07-04 01:26:40 <jrmithdobbs> using official binaries
  65 2013-07-04 01:26:54 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: sounds like a problem for ubuntu.
  66 2013-07-04 01:26:59 <warren> IMHO it's a mistake to rely on an external db library at all.  People link to different versions of bdb making the data files incompatible.
  67 2013-07-04 01:27:11 <gmaxwell> We already fix the bdb version in our binaries.
  68 2013-07-04 01:27:17 <michagogo> jrmithdobbs: https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
  69 2013-07-04 01:27:24 <phungus> is there a way to stop bitcoind from downloading the blockchain or doing any other ops that would slow down a walletpassphrase bruteforce?
  70 2013-07-04 01:27:28 <michagogo> jrmithdobbs: db4.8 is available there
  71 2013-07-04 01:27:38 <michagogo> phungus: What OS?
  72 2013-07-04 01:27:40 <phungus> linux
  73 2013-07-04 01:27:46 <michagogo> patch the source
  74 2013-07-04 01:27:51 <phungus> well, besides that?
  75 2013-07-04 01:27:53 <phungus> :-)
  76 2013-07-04 01:28:04 <phungus> I will go there if I have to but I was hoping for something esier
  77 2013-07-04 01:28:06 <phungus> easier
  78 2013-07-04 01:28:14 <michagogo> I *guess* you could cut off the network connection?
  79 2013-07-04 01:28:27 <phungus> I tried with iptables but it seems to hang while trying to connect outbound
  80 2013-07-04 01:28:36 <michagogo> Or just let it sync...
  81 2013-07-04 01:28:58 <phungus> yeah I suppose, the only issue is I'm having to use v6 with this wallet
  82 2013-07-04 01:29:01 <phungus> it won't work with v7
  83 2013-07-04 01:29:05 <phungus> (or v8)
  84 2013-07-04 01:29:09 <gmaxwell> phungus: where did you get the wallet from?
  85 2013-07-04 01:29:20 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  86 2013-07-04 01:29:25 <phungus> a friend who mined a year or two ago and then forgot his passphrase
  87 2013-07-04 01:29:42 <phungus> he was on Windows
  88 2013-07-04 01:30:10 <phungus> he was running v6 beta
  89 2013-07-04 01:30:38 <phungus>     "version" : 60006,
  90 2013-07-04 01:30:45 <phungus> that's the only one I've been able to get it loaded up into
  91 2013-07-04 01:30:51 <phungus>  â    "walletversion" : 60000,
  92 2013-07-04 01:31:28 <phungus> I suppose I can hack up the source for this...
  93 2013-07-04 01:31:38 <phungus> ugh...
  94 2013-07-04 01:31:45 <michagogo> phungus: Not that hard
  95 2013-07-04 01:31:52 <michagogo> Find the parts of the code you want to cut out
  96 2013-07-04 01:31:57 <gmaxwell> huh?
  97 2013-07-04 01:32:01 <michagogo> And then just replace them with "return;"
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  99 2013-07-04 01:32:05 <gmaxwell> just -connect=0.0.0.0 -listen=0
 100 2013-07-04 01:32:11 <phungus> oh
 101 2013-07-04 01:32:15 <phungus> hmmm
 102 2013-07-04 01:32:30 <gmaxwell> but if you're trying to use bitcoind as a password cracker, good luck— it won't be very fast.
 103 2013-07-04 01:32:47 <phungus> well, I think it's only 12 or 13 digits and he remembered part of it
 104 2013-07-04 01:33:15 <phungus> but yeah, not very efficient, I know
 105 2013-07-04 01:33:45 <phungus> trying those cmd line args, thanks gmax
 106 2013-07-04 01:35:25 <phungus> oooo that sped it up a lot
 107 2013-07-04 01:35:26 <phungus> thx
 108 2013-07-04 01:35:41 <phungus> went from 3 minutes to 6 seconds on my test
 109 2013-07-04 01:35:45 <phungus> :-)
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 133 2013-07-04 02:29:01 <petertodd> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175156.msg2646950#msg2646950 <- lol, Mike's dumping on soft-forks: "There aren't any compelling reasons to use soft forks, IMHO. It is at best controversial."
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 143 2013-07-04 02:42:02 <nsh> i haven't heard any compelling reasons to use Mike either
 144 2013-07-04 02:42:31 <petertodd> He's a bit of a character...
 145 2013-07-04 02:42:51 <petertodd> Just technically competent enough that people who don't know better listen to him.
 146 2013-07-04 02:43:08 * nsh smiles
 147 2013-07-04 02:43:29 <nsh> a little learning is a dangerous thing --pope
 148 2013-07-04 02:43:43 <nsh> (pope sidious)
 149 2013-07-04 02:44:21 <petertodd> Well the problem is partly that Mike focuses on getting things done rather than spending his time thinking, and Bitcoin is new enough that we need thinkers not doers.
 150 2013-07-04 02:45:08 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat-GNOME)
 151 2013-07-04 02:46:05 <petertodd> John Dillon is kind of the anti-Mike in a way, he never written any code at all, but he obviously understands the system very deeply. The right balance is somewhere in between...
 152 2013-07-04 02:49:44 <bombsite> Theory is when one knows everything but nothing works.
 153 2013-07-04 02:50:01 <bombsite>  Practice is when everything works but nobody knows why.
 154 2013-07-04 02:50:18 <bombsite>  In our lab, theory and practice go hand in hand: nothing works and nobody knows why.
 155 2013-07-04 02:50:37 <IanCormac> lol
 156 2013-07-04 02:51:08 <petertodd> It's not that simple... My day job is in electrical engineering, and I regularly do projects where months of paper analysis is followed by a quick implementation of a system that works nearly 100% the first try.
 157 2013-07-04 02:51:41 <bombsite> I'm jealous
 158 2013-07-04 02:51:42 <petertodd> Theory applied correctly is a lot more valuable than people give it credit for.
 159 2013-07-04 02:51:54 <bombsite> I had so much difficulty in my circuits classes
 160 2013-07-04 02:51:58 <bombsite> because nothing ever worked
 161 2013-07-04 02:52:08 <petertodd> You didn't understand the theory well enough.
 162 2013-07-04 02:52:20 <petertodd> Don't mean to be blunt, but that's just the truth of it.
 163 2013-07-04 02:52:32 <bombsite> sadly, the theory was like "this is a resistor", "a capacitor stores charge"
 164 2013-07-04 02:52:43 <petertodd> Well... they weren't teaching you much theory. :)
 165 2013-07-04 02:52:59 roconnor has joined
 166 2013-07-04 02:53:00 <bombsite> it's okay though
 167 2013-07-04 02:53:03 <bombsite> I'm just bad :P
 168 2013-07-04 02:53:19 <bombsite> they got wrecked trying to design things like theremins
 169 2013-07-04 02:53:20 <bombsite> once we broke off and my EE friends started doing their advanced classes
 170 2013-07-04 02:54:24 <petertodd> I mean, I work in analog electronics too, a field that is often written off as black magic, and I still manage to apply theory correctly to all sorts of things people write off as black magic and get consistent results. Nothing special about me either, lots of people achieve that.
 171 2013-07-04 02:54:51 <petertodd> Ah, what field are you in?
 172 2013-07-04 02:58:18 <nsh> petertodd, why haven't memristers given me a hoverboard yet?
 173 2013-07-04 02:58:23 Subo1978_ has joined
 174 2013-07-04 02:58:44 <nsh> i thought they were the missing link in electronic components and set to make all sorts of things shiny and new
 175 2013-07-04 02:58:48 <petertodd> nsh: They told me it was because you didn't say "please"
 176 2013-07-04 02:58:55 <nsh> oh dear :/
 177 2013-07-04 02:59:05 <nsh> i hope i haven't been holding up the entire consumer electronics industry again
 178 2013-07-04 02:59:47 <IanCormac> Damn it nsh
 179 2013-07-04 02:59:59 <petertodd> nsh: Nah, only if someone actually makes working memristors. In fact, the way the press is talking about it is all wrong: memristors are a neat bit of math, and the advance is that researchers came up with these cool electronic components with useful applications that *happen* to be possible to model as memristors.
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 181 2013-07-04 03:00:33 <nsh> right
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 183 2013-07-04 03:00:43 <petertodd> In fact, the "revolutionize the industry" memristors people have been talking about are actually not very much like the math models; they match the models even worse than real inductors do.
 184 2013-07-04 03:00:51 <nsh> i see
 185 2013-07-04 03:01:10 <nsh> my vague recollection was they'd enable very simple nonvolatile memory, and some other things
 186 2013-07-04 03:01:42 <petertodd> Yup, but for enabling non-volatile memory you actually want something that doesn't behave very much like an ideal memristor apparently.
 187 2013-07-04 03:02:07 <nsh> hmm
 188 2013-07-04 03:02:12 Subo1978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 189 2013-07-04 03:02:30 <petertodd> Same way if you want to filter RF noise, you actually don't want something that behaves like an ideal inductor, because the non-ideal effects like increased real-resistance at high frequencies are actually useful.
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 193 2013-07-04 03:03:09 <nsh> right
 194 2013-07-04 03:03:16 <nsh> oh, synaptic modelling was the other application
 195 2013-07-04 03:03:30 <bombsite> petertodd: I'm still in uni for computer engineering
 196 2013-07-04 03:03:46 <bombsite> but might be going grad school for cs
 197 2013-07-04 03:03:58 <bombsite> since my areas of interest are crypto, security, malware
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 200 2013-07-04 03:05:03 <petertodd> nsh: yeah, the synaptic one sounded cool
 201 2013-07-04 03:06:02 <petertodd> bombsite: Ah cool, CE is an interesting field, though be careful you don't discount programming too much... The theoretical pure CS stuff is IMO something you can ignore, but you should understand what is good about high-level-language techniques rather than getting stuck in the idea that C is the be all and end-all of languages.
 202 2013-07-04 03:06:38 <petertodd> In my experience people who are too hardware oriented often really dismiss modern programming techniques.
 203 2013-07-04 03:06:50 <bombsite> oh i'm not hardware oriented at all haha
 204 2013-07-04 03:07:13 <bombsite> I'm the type of guy who'd rather write verilog and simulate a circuit than wire it
 205 2013-07-04 03:07:49 <petertodd> Ah, well that's still fairly hardware oriented compared to a Lisp programmer. :)
 206 2013-07-04 03:08:35 <nsh> if i can be abstracted away, it probably should
 207 2013-07-04 03:09:06 <nsh> that way we get great surprises years down the line when some subtle manifestation of the imperfection of our abstractions occurs
 208 2013-07-04 03:09:09 <nsh> that's always fun
 209 2013-07-04 03:11:16 <nsh> (i am an adherent of the Erisian order)
 210 2013-07-04 03:13:34 <bombsite> stop being sesquipedalian, prick :P
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 212 2013-07-04 03:23:48 <petertodd> Heh, yeah abstractions have their downsides too... I'm mainly thinking about VHDL and verilog, where so much could have been done to even just automate things a bit.
 213 2013-07-04 03:23:53 <petertodd> Especially verilog, gah.
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 220 2013-07-04 03:32:31 <bombsite> I think the problem
 221 2013-07-04 03:32:44 <bombsite> is that the big companies in that field, like altera and xilinx
 222 2013-07-04 03:32:53 <bombsite> are companies of EEs and can't program
 223 2013-07-04 03:33:18 <bombsite> like seriously, modelsim and synthesis
 224 2013-07-04 03:33:23 <bombsite> have different standards
 225 2013-07-04 03:33:34 <bombsite> so a module that simulates can potentially not compile.
 226 2013-07-04 03:33:38 <bombsite> that's totally retarded
 227 2013-07-04 03:34:26 <petertodd> For sure, you see that with the EDA tools too; Altium has scripting in theory, and it sucks. Heck, Altium in general seems to have been made by shitty programmers who don't understand EE either.
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 229 2013-07-04 03:37:47 <bombsite> LOL
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 232 2013-07-04 03:50:04 <petertodd> potentially worrying: inputs.io is operated by the same people who run https://www.coinlenders.com, so they have an incentive to be lending out your deposits behind your back. I just send them an email asking about what auditing of deposits they plan to implement, if any.
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 238 2013-07-04 03:55:38 <warren> "Bitcoin transactions take a hour to confirm. Inputs.io makes it instant with no fees."
 239 2013-07-04 03:56:08 <petertodd> warren: They're doing off-chain tx's for account-to-account transfers, just like easywallet does.
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 247 2013-07-04 04:02:19 <walch> petertodd: I still don't feel all that comfortable with the service as a whole. the fact that I'm still logged in two days later is worrying enough.
 248 2013-07-04 04:02:27 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 249 2013-07-04 04:03:22 <petertodd> On the other hand, they do make it possible to see where you are logged in, so they are taking that stuff seriously, just not making the same choices you might.
 250 2013-07-04 04:03:46 robocoin has joined
 251 2013-07-04 04:03:47 <petertodd> They also have google auth 2 factor.
 252 2013-07-04 04:03:59 <warren> my coinbase login from weeks ago is still working ... and I'm coming from an IP 3,000 miles away from the previous location
 253 2013-07-04 04:04:19 <petertodd> warren: Well that's based on a cookie in your browser of course.
 254 2013-07-04 04:04:20 Maxvalor has joined
 255 2013-07-04 04:05:38 <petertodd> I said before that the thing these sites need to do is make it possible to use Bitcoin hardware wallets to authorize payments by having those wallets sign dummy transactions or something.
 256 2013-07-04 04:06:21 zacm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 257 2013-07-04 04:07:14 <walch> the thing is, even my online bank is a lot more paranoid about how they deal with logged in users, and they have the luxury of having reversible transactions.
 258 2013-07-04 04:07:26 zacm has joined
 259 2013-07-04 04:08:44 <petertodd> Depends on your threat model; for me because I don't lend my computer to others the convenience of not having to login again outweights the slight risk.
 260 2013-07-04 04:08:53 <petertodd> What they should do is make the logout timer configurable.
 261 2013-07-04 04:10:36 <walch> in which case I'm struggling to find a use for the website. if it's just for me to use at home, wouldn't a traditional client be more valuable to the end user?
 262 2013-07-04 04:11:20 <walch> I realise that transactions under 0.01BTC are awkward in a normal client, but is there really a demand for sub-cent transactions at the moment?
 263 2013-07-04 04:11:24 <petertodd> ...um... don't login Bitcoin *anything* on computers for which you don't trust the security.
 264 2013-07-04 04:11:41 <petertodd> After all, you can always hit the "logout" button.
 265 2013-07-04 04:11:54 <petertodd> But if that's an issue, chances are you are doing it wrong anyway.
 266 2013-07-04 04:12:38 <walch> I'm trying to come up with a justification for storing currency on inputs.io rather than a traditional, locally based client.
 267 2013-07-04 04:13:23 <petertodd> Privacy is a good one. I would much rather have inputs.io or easywallet.org know what transactions I've made than have anyone who wants to able to use blockchain analysis to figure that out.
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 270 2013-07-04 04:15:37 <walch> obfuscation, got it.
 271 2013-07-04 04:16:17 <petertodd> It's not obfuscation, it's genuine privacy. Only inputs.io can link those transactions together, not anyone else. Easywallet can be used over Tor FWIW...
 272 2013-07-04 04:18:20 <walch> privacy would suggest that nobody knows; surely that's placing trust in the operator of the websites not to divulge their logs at a later date.
 273 2013-07-04 04:19:27 <petertodd> walch: Sure, but in many cases that's a reasonable assumption. With easy wallet it's even better because you can always make more than one account and send funds from one to another, something people already do to send funds to other people.
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 529 2013-07-04 11:50:46 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2809  <--- Why was this closed without merging?
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 533 2013-07-04 12:03:00 <gmaxwell> warren: it was closed by the requestor. not clear why.
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 541 2013-07-04 12:30:57 <phantomcircuit> that reminds me i should close the pull request about speeding up wallet load times
 542 2013-07-04 12:31:05 <phantomcircuit> sipa said he wanted to just change the format entirely
 543 2013-07-04 12:31:31 <phantomcircuit> and people are still complaining about the copy/pasted openssl code's format
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 582 2013-07-04 14:07:54 <walch> warren: I closed it so that I could add a little more to it
 583 2013-07-04 14:08:39 stretchwarren has joined
 584 2013-07-04 14:09:06 <walch> warren: I need to have a chat with laanwj and work out how some of the strings work in QT before I open a new pull
 585 2013-07-04 14:11:49 <warren> walch: cool,t hx
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 587 2013-07-04 14:18:21 <warren> [warren@newcaprica litecoin]$ ./bitcoin-qt -testnet
 588 2013-07-04 14:18:23 <warren> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'boost::filesystem::filesystem_error'
 589 2013-07-04 14:18:25 <warren>   what():  boost::filesystem::create_directory: No such file or directory: "/home/warren/.bitcoin/testnet3"
 590 2013-07-04 14:18:28 <warren> Aborted (core dumped)
 591 2013-07-04 14:18:33 <warren> bitcoin master ... -testnet fails first time, works on second attempt
 592 2013-07-04 14:18:56 <warren> can anyone reproduce?
 593 2013-07-04 14:20:03 <walch> I can't reproduce that on OSX.
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 617 2013-07-04 15:04:22 <Steve132> Whats the best way to submit a bitcoin improvement proposal?
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 631 2013-07-04 15:20:57 <Zx82> Buy 2 BTC by paypal usd
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 635 2013-07-04 15:29:41 <Steve132> What's the best way to submit a BIP?
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 650 2013-07-04 15:38:17 <michagogo> Steve132: SOmeone may have linked you already, but https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP
 651 2013-07-04 15:38:36 <michagogo> People wishing to submit BIPs, first should propose their idea or document to the mailing list. After discussion they should email Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>. After copy-editing and acceptance, it will be published here.
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 655 2013-07-04 15:45:16 <Steve132> Second question..in public-key cryptography, can you encrypt a message with a public key but not use diffie helman?
 656 2013-07-04 15:45:21 <tcatm> sipa: Wouldn't the commits be "squeezed" into a single merge commit anyway?
 657 2013-07-04 15:45:45 <Steve132> like, can you encrypt a message such that the recipiant can read it but it doesn't use your keys?
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 659 2013-07-04 15:46:12 <sipa> Steve132: yes
 660 2013-07-04 15:46:24 <sipa> Steve132: well, there are schemes that don't use DH
 661 2013-07-04 15:46:24 <Steve132> What's the name of that?
 662 2013-07-04 15:46:37 <sipa> RSA encryption doesn't use DH
 663 2013-07-04 15:47:20 <sipa> tcatm: the criterion is usually that at every commit, the program should build and work
 664 2013-07-04 15:47:28 <sipa> tcatm: which i guess is true for your PR actually
 665 2013-07-04 15:47:51 <sipa> tcatm: but still, 7 commits for a few lines changed
 666 2013-07-04 15:47:53 <Steve132> Can you use EC to do the same thing?
 667 2013-07-04 15:48:03 <sipa> Steve132: there is no EC-RSA
 668 2013-07-04 15:48:26 <Steve132> like, encrypt a message with a EC public key s.t. only the EC private key can decrypt it, but not use ECDH
 669 2013-07-04 15:48:50 <sipa> there may be direct EC-based encryption, but in practice ECDH is always used to establish a ephemeral key
 670 2013-07-04 15:48:51 <tcatm> sipa: Looks better now?
 671 2013-07-04 15:49:19 <sipa> tcatm: thanks!
 672 2013-07-04 15:49:36 <tcatm> What's the procedure for merging pull requests? Who does it and when?
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 675 2013-07-04 15:50:44 <sipa> tcatm: anyone with write access can, we usually wait for a few ACKs
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 682 2013-07-04 15:55:39 <Steve132> A few days ago when people were talking about embedding data transactions into the blockchain by using targeted amounts of bitcoin
 683 2013-07-04 15:55:55 <Steve132> like, using 0.0001323433 btc to send that particular string as data
 684 2013-07-04 15:56:16 <Steve132> and there was a scandal because someone supposedly put CP links on there
 685 2013-07-04 15:56:29 <Steve132> Why didn't they just use the 'message'
 686 2013-07-04 15:56:43 <Steve132> like, aren't transaction messages embedded in the blockchain as data?
 687 2013-07-04 15:56:43 <sipa> which 'message'
 688 2013-07-04 15:56:58 <sipa> there is no public message field in bitcoin transactions
 689 2013-07-04 15:56:59 <Steve132> like the message associated with the genesis block
 690 2013-07-04 15:57:03 <sipa> and there should not be one
 691 2013-07-04 15:57:12 <sipa> coinbases are special
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 693 2013-07-04 15:57:31 <sipa> the blockchain is a very slow unreliable and expensive communication mechanis.
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 696 2013-07-04 16:00:29 <Steve132> https://blockchain.info/tx/bfe855b9daefc36a493b447e2137f97a8e906f83ff517f2ced42d56c3c41fd8d
 697 2013-07-04 16:01:33 <Steve132> The script for transactions allows you to use OP_DROP to put arbitrary data in...and blockchain.info uses that as a 'public note' field
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 700 2013-07-04 16:03:23 <Steve132> am I wrong?
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 702 2013-07-04 16:04:56 <Steve132> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Transaction_with_a_message
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 708 2013-07-04 16:15:12 <Steve132> sipa: what am I looking at if you cannot embed messages in the blockchain?
 709 2013-07-04 16:15:16 <petertodd> Steve132: You are wrong; look at the actual transaction; there's no OP_DROP there.
 710 2013-07-04 16:15:40 <Steve132> So what am I looking at?
 711 2013-07-04 16:15:45 <Steve132> and what does the wiki mean?
 712 2013-07-04 16:15:47 <sipa> a central database
 713 2013-07-04 16:15:57 <sipa> blockchain.info allows you to associate messages with transactions
 714 2013-07-04 16:16:04 <sipa> but that's purely stored at blockchain.info
 715 2013-07-04 16:16:18 <sipa> and yes, in theory you can use OP_DROP to put messages in scripts
 716 2013-07-04 16:16:24 <sipa> but it's not standard and you shouldn't
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 718 2013-07-04 16:16:48 <Steve132> sipa: why not?
 719 2013-07-04 16:17:12 <Steve132> It would enable a fully decentralized marketplace, for one
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 721 2013-07-04 16:17:55 <Steve132> are there technical problems associated with doing it?
 722 2013-07-04 16:18:02 <TD> why would it enable a fully decentralised marketplace?
 723 2013-07-04 16:18:11 <TD> yeah, a whole bunch. that's why b.i switched to using its own database
 724 2013-07-04 16:18:43 <Steve132> what are the techincal problems?
 725 2013-07-04 16:19:02 <sipa> requiring the world to mirror your personal data for eternity
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 727 2013-07-04 16:19:04 <petertodd> Steve132: the data has to be stored forever in the blockchain for no good reason
 728 2013-07-04 16:19:22 <TD> also, the data allowed is very small (too small for most useful messages) and it's public
 729 2013-07-04 16:19:47 <TD> there are usually better ways. sometimes for various reasons it's actually important that you have data which is signed atomically with a financial transaction and OP_DROP is there for that reason
 730 2013-07-04 16:19:51 <TD> but mostly it's unnecessary
 731 2013-07-04 16:20:10 <Steve132> Well, 1) its like 1K, which is plenty for stuff.  One of the largest communication networks in the world is 160 bytes
 732 2013-07-04 16:20:27 <Steve132> 2) encryption would make it not public
 733 2013-07-04 16:20:39 <petertodd> Steve132: 160 bytes adds up.
 734 2013-07-04 16:20:56 <Steve132> and yes, thats the point, "sometimes for various reasons its important you have data which is signed atomically with a financial transaction"
 735 2013-07-04 16:21:00 <petertodd> Steve132: Anyway, the real issue is people don't want you to do what you are trying to do and will raise hell and high water trying to stop you.
 736 2013-07-04 16:21:02 <Steve132> thats exactly what I'm asking about
 737 2013-07-04 16:21:43 <Steve132> Why raise hell and high water?  They could simply reject the transaction or require higher fees
 738 2013-07-04 16:21:54 <TD> unless you have developed an interesting new financial cryptography protocol, you almost certainly don't need OP_DROP
 739 2013-07-04 16:21:58 <TD> but maybe you have
 740 2013-07-04 16:22:00 <petertodd> Steve132: Do you know what the UTXO set is?
 741 2013-07-04 16:22:22 <Steve132> the unspent transactions yes
 742 2013-07-04 16:22:23 <TD> what higher level problem are you wanting to solve?
 743 2013-07-04 16:22:33 <TD> (decentralized marketplace is a bit vague)
 744 2013-07-04 16:22:35 <petertodd> Steve132: Do you realize that we need to keep it small?
 745 2013-07-04 16:23:05 <Steve132> Well, if you could embed data with the financial transaction
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 747 2013-07-04 16:23:40 <sipa> Steve132: the financial transaction is more than the bitcoin transaction backing it
 748 2013-07-04 16:23:43 <sipa> or at least, can be
 749 2013-07-04 16:23:46 <Steve132> then you could be like "1 widget.  Part no 2031." and encrypt it using the public key of the destination address
 750 2013-07-04 16:23:54 <Steve132> and send that as a message
 751 2013-07-04 16:23:58 <Steve132> along with the payment
 752 2013-07-04 16:24:01 <sipa> how about just sending it to the the only person in the world who cares directly?
 753 2013-07-04 16:24:23 <sipa> instead of making it part of the piece of data the entire world needs to validate it (the bitcoin transaction)
 754 2013-07-04 16:24:37 <sipa> (which is exactly what the payment protocol - which is being developed - does)
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 757 2013-07-04 16:25:15 <Steve132> The benefit of making it something the entire world needs to validate is that the terms of an agreement are just as important for independant validation of an exchange as the amount paid is
 758 2013-07-04 16:25:26 <TD> Steve132: see this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2539
 759 2013-07-04 16:25:47 <TD> Steve132: if the merchant supports it, you end up with a proof of payment request, and proof that you paid it
 760 2013-07-04 16:25:55 <TD> Steve132: but it doesn't add anything to the block chain and the communication is direct
 761 2013-07-04 16:26:00 <TD> it seems a superior approach
 762 2013-07-04 16:26:46 <sipa> Steve132: if the data is encrypted anyway, it's useless to everyone else anyway
 763 2013-07-04 16:26:53 <petertodd> Steve132: Do you realize that we can add a P2P flood-fill messaging layer to Bitcoin to send messages that don't need to go in the blockchain itself?
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 765 2013-07-04 16:27:15 <Steve132> these are all good ideas
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 767 2013-07-04 16:27:21 <Steve132> thanks for the food for thought
 768 2013-07-04 16:27:28 <petertodd> Steve132: np
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 773 2013-07-04 16:44:44 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Can you give the pull-tester a kick? (sure someone else has already asked you...)
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1023 2013-07-04 21:31:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, am i right to close my pull request in favor of changing the wallet format entirely?
1024 2013-07-04 21:31:57 <phantomcircuit> y/n
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1039 2013-07-04 21:39:23 <randomparticle> hi. i wonder, is there some source i can download that has a max file descriptors OS X fix applied
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1041 2013-07-04 21:39:46 <randomparticle> bitcoind is crashing for me during sync, and it looks like the FD limit is the issue
1042 2013-07-04 21:40:18 <randomparticle> Assertion failed: (internal_key.size() >= 8), function ExtractUserKey, file ./db/dbformat.h, line 96
1043 2013-07-04 21:40:51 <randomparticle> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2568 etc
1044 2013-07-04 21:41:27 <randomparticle> e.g.: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2522
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1046 2013-07-04 21:42:33 <randomparticle> i'm finding the github discussion of this issue confusing. i can't figure if there is a definitive fix and if so, where it is to be found
1047 2013-07-04 21:42:37 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, that doesn't really look like a max fd issue
1048 2013-07-04 21:42:50 <randomparticle> when i google on it, that's what comes up
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1050 2013-07-04 21:43:47 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, that looks like you have a corrupt db
1051 2013-07-04 21:44:08 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes
1052 2013-07-04 21:44:08 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, please pastebin.com the output before/after that assertion
1053 2013-07-04 21:44:14 <phantomcircuit> so i can get a better idea of what's wrong
1054 2013-07-04 21:44:26 <randomparticle> there isn't any
1055 2013-07-04 21:44:34 <randomparticle> that's all it says
1056 2013-07-04 21:44:56 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, do you know where debug.log is? (it's the same place your wallet.dat is)
1057 2013-07-04 21:45:06 <randomparticle> i've mentioned the FD issue because people on github with that message are attributing it to that
1058 2013-07-04 21:45:23 <randomparticle> the OS is running out of file descriptors apparently needed to access the DB
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1060 2013-07-04 21:45:42 <sipa> randomparticle: looks like the random corruption we've seen reported for a while, but can't reproduce
1061 2013-07-04 21:45:42 <randomparticle> will check, thanks
1062 2013-07-04 21:45:47 <phantomcircuit> sipa, actually i think this is probably more important https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2736
1063 2013-07-04 21:45:57 <phantomcircuit> as it's a durability/consistency issue
1064 2013-07-04 21:46:16 helo_ is now known as helo
1065 2013-07-04 21:46:20 <phantomcircuit> it puzzles me that people replied to the pull request with minor quibbles over code style but nobody even commented on this
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1069 2013-07-04 21:46:59 <randomparticle> debug.log is 34 MB
1070 2013-07-04 21:47:17 <randomparticle> that's a lot to search through
1071 2013-07-04 21:48:00 <randomparticle> is there something i can grep for?
1072 2013-07-04 21:48:11 <randomparticle> it's got over three hundred thousand lines of messages in it
1073 2013-07-04 21:48:18 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, just copy the last like 20 lines
1074 2013-07-04 21:48:37 <randomparticle> that won't help because i've started reindexing
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1076 2013-07-04 21:49:28 <randomparticle> i don't know what i'm supposed to do. after ten hours or so of sync the thing crashes
1077 2013-07-04 21:49:48 <randomparticle> i've tried the --reindex option, but is that sensible?
1078 2013-07-04 21:49:57 <randomparticle> it's just a random suggestion i've picked up online
1079 2013-07-04 21:50:05 <phantomcircuit> given that you probably have corruption
1080 2013-07-04 21:50:10 <phantomcircuit> it's a sensible thing to do
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1082 2013-07-04 21:50:23 <randomparticle> ok, thanks. is this starting from square one, or ...?
1083 2013-07-04 21:51:00 <sipa> randomparticle: it rebuilds the database from scratch
1084 2013-07-04 21:51:09 <sipa> it's certainly what you need to do to recover
1085 2013-07-04 21:51:10 <randomparticle> ok
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1088 2013-07-04 21:52:40 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, it's a lot faster than the initial resync though
1089 2013-07-04 21:52:49 <phantomcircuit> since you're not going to the network to find blocks
1090 2013-07-04 21:53:10 <randomparticle> that's good. i'm in debug.log in vi. is there anything i can search for?
1091 2013-07-04 21:53:19 <randomparticle> i notice the messages aren't timestamped
1092 2013-07-04 21:53:29 <randomparticle> so i can't look for a message that occurred at a particular time
1093 2013-07-04 21:53:31 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, you have to pass -logtimestamp to get them
1094 2013-07-04 21:53:34 <phantomcircuit> im not sure why
1095 2013-07-04 21:53:38 <randomparticle> ah, ok
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1097 2013-07-04 21:53:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, any idea what the logic is behind not timestamping by default
1098 2013-07-04 21:54:12 <sipa> phantomcircuit: iirc it was considered a potential privacy issue at the time or something
1099 2013-07-04 21:54:32 <sipa> that people would want to find logfiles to trace transactions or something
1100 2013-07-04 21:54:41 <sipa> but no idea really
1101 2013-07-04 21:54:44 <phantomcircuit> huh
1102 2013-07-04 21:54:48 <randomparticle> can i up the fd limit in osx using, e.g., sysctl?
1103 2013-07-04 21:54:51 <phantomcircuit> i can sort of see that in a very weird way
1104 2013-07-04 21:54:57 <sipa> randomparticle: which version are you running?
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1108 2013-07-04 21:56:26 <randomparticle> it was  git cloned 2 days ago
1109 2013-07-04 21:56:37 <sipa> then filedescriptors is definitely not an issue
1110 2013-07-04 21:56:43 <randomparticle> ok
1111 2013-07-04 21:56:50 <sipa> that problem was fixed in 0.8.2 or even 0.8.0
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1114 2013-07-04 21:59:29 <randomparticle> oh dear.. error
1115 2013-07-04 21:59:40 <randomparticle> i've temporarily halted bitcoind
1116 2013-07-04 21:59:46 <sipa> what error?
1117 2013-07-04 21:59:56 <randomparticle> will it continue reindexing when i restart it?
1118 2013-07-04 22:00:08 <sipa> yes, if normally interrupted
1119 2013-07-04 22:00:12 <sipa> but what is the error?
1120 2013-07-04 22:00:19 <randomparticle> my error :--)
1121 2013-07-04 22:00:26 <sipa> ?
1122 2013-07-04 22:00:39 <sipa> oh, mistake?
1123 2013-07-04 22:00:41 <randomparticle> yeah
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1125 2013-07-04 22:02:30 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, it starts from the beginning
1126 2013-07-04 22:03:11 <randomparticle> i think it's ok. it's back up to 148k again
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1128 2013-07-04 22:03:52 <randomparticle> i don't know whether i would be better off torrenting the blockchain
1129 2013-07-04 22:04:11 <randomparticle> doesn't seem particularly network intensive, though
1130 2013-07-04 22:04:12 <phantomcircuit> probably not
1131 2013-07-04 22:04:21 <michagogo> randomparticle: You can get started with bootstrap.dat
1132 2013-07-04 22:04:34 <michagogo> It will be faster than normal network syncing
1133 2013-07-04 22:04:38 <randomparticle> what does that do?
1134 2013-07-04 22:04:40 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, how large is your bitcoin data directory
1135 2013-07-04 22:04:50 <phantomcircuit> i can guess how many of the blocks you already have
1136 2013-07-04 22:04:58 <randomparticle> 3.5G
1137 2013-07-04 22:05:00 <michagogo> See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0;all
1138 2013-07-04 22:05:03 <phantomcircuit> shrug
1139 2013-07-04 22:05:17 <phantomcircuit> randomparticle, you might do better downloading bootstrap.dat
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1141 2013-07-04 22:05:37 <randomparticle> when i had the crash i was up to about 200k blocks
1142 2013-07-04 22:05:58 <randomparticle> really, not that far off finishing
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1144 2013-07-04 22:06:31 <randomparticle> could you possibly code this so it crashes nearer the start of sync? ;--)
1145 2013-07-04 22:06:45 <sipa> if we could, we'd code it so it didn't crash at all
1146 2013-07-04 22:07:02 <sipa> but we don't even have a clue what causes it
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1148 2013-07-04 22:07:45 <sipa> randomparticle: after 200k there's certainly much more work than before
1149 2013-07-04 22:07:56 <randomparticle> you know, i have the data directory on an external disk
1150 2013-07-04 22:08:04 <sipa> hmmm
1151 2013-07-04 22:08:09 <randomparticle> i mention that because ...
1152 2013-07-04 22:08:14 <randomparticle> i think you know
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1154 2013-07-04 22:08:39 <sipa> but wait, what is the state now?
1155 2013-07-04 22:08:56 <randomparticle> state?
1156 2013-07-04 22:08:59 <sipa> yes
1157 2013-07-04 22:09:10 <sipa> how far are you synced?
1158 2013-07-04 22:09:13 <randomparticle> block count? that is 152k reindexing
1159 2013-07-04 22:09:29 <sipa> ok
1160 2013-07-04 22:09:35 <randomparticle> assuming it has resumed reinded
1161 2013-07-04 22:09:43 <sipa> well does it make progress?
1162 2013-07-04 22:09:50 <sipa> 150k it should pretty fast still
1163 2013-07-04 22:09:53 <sipa> +at
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1166 2013-07-04 22:11:24 <randomparticle> perhaps i should move it to my internal drive. the external is slow
1167 2013-07-04 22:11:49 <randomparticle> i moved it external because i was worried it would destroy my hard disk. it was really thrashing the thing :--)
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1169 2013-07-04 22:12:06 <sipa> increase the database cache size
1170 2013-07-04 22:12:09 <sipa> -dbcache=2000 or so
1171 2013-07-04 22:13:40 <randomparticle> just copying the data dir across to my internal. will try that in a sec
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1173 2013-07-04 22:18:41 <randomparticle> is there anything i can put in a ramdisk?
1174 2013-07-04 22:18:58 <sipa> no, but increase your database cache
1175 2013-07-04 22:19:08 <randomparticle> have tried your suggestion, thanks
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1178 2013-07-04 22:19:19 <sipa> the 2000 number is in MiB
1179 2013-07-04 22:19:30 <randomparticle> ok. i'll let it run a while and see how it goes
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