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 243 2013-07-05 03:24:28 <imton> is there a way to hack bitcoind to index all addresses with tx ?
 244 2013-07-05 03:24:56 MobiusL has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 245 2013-07-05 03:24:57 <bloke> yes
 246 2013-07-05 03:25:02 <bloke> you have to run it with the option
 247 2013-07-05 03:25:13 <bloke> txindex=1
 248 2013-07-05 03:25:32 <bloke> if i understood you correctly
 249 2013-07-05 03:26:06 <walch> imton: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2802
 250 2013-07-05 03:26:26 <bloke> oh i see
 251 2013-07-05 03:26:27 <bloke> :D
 252 2013-07-05 03:28:36 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 254 2013-07-05 03:33:50 <imton> mmm....
 255 2013-07-05 03:33:59 <imton> that way i can ask about any tx which is awesome
 256 2013-07-05 03:34:03 sacrelege has joined
 257 2013-07-05 03:34:21 <imton> but i need to ask addresses and get the txs that addr received
 258 2013-07-05 03:35:40 <walch> imton: going entirely by the description; that's exactly what the pull does
 259 2013-07-05 03:42:22 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 261 2013-07-05 03:51:59 <imton> oh my god
 262 2013-07-05 03:52:03 <imton> i love you all :)
 263 2013-07-05 03:52:58 <imton> sipa: thank you
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 294 2013-07-05 04:38:57 <Uisgdlyast> isnt there a btc price chan too?
 295 2013-07-05 04:39:30 <Uisgdlyast> my f;ers just split in half
 296 2013-07-05 04:41:07 <Uisgdlyast> nm
 297 2013-07-05 04:44:05 <imton> what happens when there is an address collision ? both parties are able to spend the txs ?
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 353 2013-07-05 05:02:12 <The_Fly> ?
 354 2013-07-05 05:02:24 Guest33190 is now known as Luke-Jr
 355 2013-07-05 05:02:28 <The_Fly> ok, i can talk now, wtf
 356 2013-07-05 05:02:37 <Luke-Jr> stupid freenode was broken
 357 2013-07-05 05:02:41 * Luke-Jr ponders why he got something that feels like spam, in a non-English language, but has source code in it O.o
 358 2013-07-05 05:02:55 <The_Fly> what does the code do?
 359 2013-07-05 05:02:59 <The_Fly> and in what language?
 360 2013-07-05 05:03:06 <Luke-Jr> C
 361 2013-07-05 05:03:12 <The_Fly> interesting
 362 2013-07-05 05:03:13 <Uisgdlyast> what kind of output can you expect with a 300MH/S ASIC?
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 364 2013-07-05 05:03:34 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/7CbCUE8f
 365 2013-07-05 05:03:36 <The_Fly> it should output bitcoins
 366 2013-07-05 05:03:47 <Luke-Jr> Uisgdlyast: wrong channel, and impossible question to answer
 367 2013-07-05 05:04:17 <petertodd> zerocoin released code btw: https://github.com/Zerocoin/libzerocoin
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 373 2013-07-05 05:09:23 <The_Fly> Luke-Jr: this looks like some kind of joke
 374 2013-07-05 05:09:38 <The_Fly> lol @ /* now i have computed the first 127 planck units of the evolution */
 375 2013-07-05 05:09:52 wiretapped has joined
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 377 2013-07-05 05:10:04 <The_Fly> " /* complete axis-parallel imaging of the computed universe saved */"
 378 2013-07-05 05:10:07 <The_Fly> of a ppm image :S
 379 2013-07-05 05:12:08 <SomeoneWeird> lmfao
 380 2013-07-05 05:12:11 RazielZ has joined
 381 2013-07-05 05:13:10 <The_Fly> charmap hypercube
 382 2013-07-05 05:13:25 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, interesting
 383 2013-07-05 05:14:07 <phantomcircuit> i have no idea how any of this works
 384 2013-07-05 05:14:16 <phantomcircuit> i guess i should print the original paper and learn something
 385 2013-07-05 05:14:24 <petertodd> heh, I'm re-reading it right now
 386 2013-07-05 05:14:36 <petertodd> it's very readable
 387 2013-07-05 05:17:25 stretchwarren has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 389 2013-07-05 05:18:48 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yeah this is clean code
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 392 2013-07-05 05:23:20 <petertodd> curious: "After that we'll be releasing a full Bitcoin client. We'll gladly take contributions for alt-currency clients as well." but also "But to answer your question, it will be an extension to the Bitcoin protocol-- though it will obviously use a separate blockchain."
 393 2013-07-05 05:23:25 <petertodd> (from their twitter)
 394 2013-07-05 05:26:41 <maaku> petertodd: what's this?
 395 2013-07-05 05:26:50 <petertodd> maaku: zerocoin released sourcecode
 396 2013-07-05 05:28:35 <maaku> they fix the limited performance?
 397 2013-07-05 05:28:43 <petertodd> no
 398 2013-07-05 05:29:09 <maaku> well wake me when SCIP arrives then
 399 2013-07-05 05:29:14 <petertodd> heh
 400 2013-07-05 05:29:35 <petertodd> some alt-coin is going to implement zerocoin...
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 405 2013-07-05 05:42:21 <imton> i compiled bitcoind and i get "error: You must set rpcpassword=<password> in the configuration file:"
 406 2013-07-05 05:42:25 <imton> mac osx
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 409 2013-07-05 05:44:44 <maaku> echo rpcpassword=please_change_me > "~/Library/Application Settings/Bitcoin/bitcoin.conf"
 410 2013-07-05 05:44:48 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: sounds like that could use a paper of its own :p
 411 2013-07-05 05:45:11 <imton> maaku: i have a password already...
 412 2013-07-05 05:45:13 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: a paper for the alt-coin implementation?
 413 2013-07-05 05:45:24 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: yes
 414 2013-07-05 05:46:00 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heh, I'm sure whoever does it is going to screw it up if one of us doesn't help them; it'd be good to have mechanisms in that alt-coin to make trust-free trading between chains easier for instance
 415 2013-07-05 05:46:02 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 416 2013-07-05 05:46:10 <imton> maaku: now i just moved bitcoind to ~/Library/..../bitcoin/ and just executed it without the -conf arg and it's working
 417 2013-07-05 05:46:57 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: has zerocoin's authors had any contact with any of the bitcoin team?
 418 2013-07-05 05:47:10 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: not much
 419 2013-07-05 05:47:12 Guest32330 has quit (Quit: sayonara)
 420 2013-07-05 05:47:18 <imton> anyway… i was wondering… is there any way to get notified or watch when a tx was made to an address?
 421 2013-07-05 05:47:31 owowo has joined
 422 2013-07-05 05:47:35 <Luke-Jr> imton: we already went over that
 423 2013-07-05 05:47:43 <imton> i mean, realtime
 424 2013-07-05 05:47:48 <imton> not polling
 425 2013-07-05 05:48:19 <imton> bitcoind pushing that info via tcp or whatever protocol… i don't know
 426 2013-07-05 05:48:37 <imton> notifications…
 427 2013-07-05 05:48:41 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heck, one of the zerocoin guys even deleted my comment on the cryptoengineering blog pointing out that zerocoin was orders of magnitude too slow to be practical, and we already had mechanisms that could implement anonymity in Bitcoin without such high overhead
 428 2013-07-05 05:48:48 <Luke-Jr> imton: define realtime. if you're waiting for confirms, you only need to check once per block
 429 2013-07-05 05:48:55 <Luke-Jr> imton: -blocknotify helps with that
 430 2013-07-05 05:49:07 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: we do?
 431 2013-07-05 05:49:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: trust-free mixing can be done P2P, and there's fidelity bonded chaum token banks
 432 2013-07-05 05:50:24 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I don't think that's the same thing.
 433 2013-07-05 05:50:41 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: mixing is arguably a crime.
 434 2013-07-05 05:50:57 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: If mixing is a crime, using zerocoin would be too.
 435 2013-07-05 05:51:02 <Luke-Jr> would it?
 436 2013-07-05 05:51:30 <Luke-Jr> zerocoin is AFAIK just a new transaction system that works like cash
 437 2013-07-05 05:51:33 <imton> Luke-Jr:  awesome… i'm searching about it right now :)
 438 2013-07-05 05:51:35 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Point is, all my comment was was me congradulating them on their achievement, while pointing out that it won't be implemented soon and in the meantime there were alternatives with many of the same advantages.
 439 2013-07-05 05:51:40 <Luke-Jr> mixing is intentionally taking action specifically to conceal the source of money
 440 2013-07-05 05:51:51 <imton> it's funny that I am building a new service about btc, i love btc, and i have 0 btcs :P
 441 2013-07-05 05:52:12 <imton> i hate i can't buy with CC almost anywhere
 442 2013-07-05 05:52:20 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Meh, don't get hung up on legal definitions - we don't have a clue what's going to happen there.
 443 2013-07-05 05:52:43 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Mixing after all happens to be cheaper than not mixing because it makes transactions smaller.
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 447 2013-07-05 05:54:43 <petertodd> You could also say that even using new addresses for every txout should be a crime because it conceals where funds are going.
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 452 2013-07-05 05:58:45 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: but that's just part of how bitcoin works (and concealing the SOURCE is the crime, not the destination anyway)
 453 2013-07-05 06:00:03 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Using fresh addresses for change conceals the source of the funds the next time they are spent because you don't know if they still belong to the same person or not.
 454 2013-07-05 06:03:23 <midnightmagic> <-- does not mix. :-P
 455 2013-07-05 06:04:10 <petertodd> If gmaxwell were here maybe he could stop denying the proof in the blockchain itself that he is fantastically rich.
 456 2013-07-05 06:04:24 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 458 2013-07-05 06:05:05 <midnightmagic> now there's an inside joke if I ever saw one
 459 2013-07-05 06:05:17 <petertodd> heh
 460 2013-07-05 06:06:00 14WAA1702 has left ()
 461 2013-07-05 06:06:09 <midnightmagic> too bad mp isn't here to misquote you and use your comment as utter proof that gmaxwell is trying to steal money from rich people
 462 2013-07-05 06:06:18 gmaxwell has joined
 463 2013-07-05 06:06:29 <gmaxwell> you kidding, I'm busy forking some unsuspecting altcoin and adding this awesome zerocoin stuff that takes 516ms per transaction to validate.
 464 2013-07-05 06:06:30 <midnightmagic> shhh  he's here stop talking about him
 465 2013-07-05 06:06:50 <midnightmagic> good heavens. What CPU?
 466 2013-07-05 06:06:56 <helo> i think his hourly rate may not actually be very good, dispite his holdings :)
 467 2013-07-05 06:07:06 <gmaxwell> 3GHz i7.
 468 2013-07-05 06:07:16 <midnightmagic> That seems pretty slow.
 469 2013-07-05 06:07:20 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: transaction sharing isn't mixing :p
 470 2013-07-05 06:07:24 <gmaxwell> helo: he was making a joke about https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0
 471 2013-07-05 06:08:53 <petertodd> midnightmagic: the problem is they are probabalistic zero-knowledge proofs so the underlying operation needs to be repeated about 80 times
 472 2013-07-05 06:08:57 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: no problem, just change the security model so that nodes don't validate anything.
 473 2013-07-05 06:09:34 <midnightmagic> win!
 474 2013-07-05 06:09:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: perfectly doable with some anti-spam measures... be careful what you wish for
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 479 2013-07-05 06:20:51 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ahaha
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 512 2013-07-05 07:16:37 <TheSeven> hm, a gigabyte of bitcoind's memory ending up in the swap partition after a few weeks of running... smells leak-ish
 513 2013-07-05 07:17:12 <TheSeven> btw, what about adding an "uptime" field to the getinfo rpc call?
 514 2013-07-05 07:18:15 stalled has joined
 515 2013-07-05 07:18:42 <phantomcircuit> TheSeven, what version?
 516 2013-07-05 07:19:54 <TheSeven> not 100% sure, because I didn't check before restarting it, but after the restart it reports 80282
 517 2013-07-05 07:19:58 <TheSeven> er, 80202
 518 2013-07-05 07:19:59 rawdr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 519 2013-07-05 07:20:09 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 520 2013-07-05 07:20:37 <sipa> it's mostly the version before that we're interested in :)
 521 2013-07-05 07:20:45 rawdr has joined
 522 2013-07-05 07:21:46 <TheSeven> so if there was an update in the ubuntu repository (to something newer than 80202) during the last 60 days, it could have been something older
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 525 2013-07-05 07:23:03 <phantomcircuit> TheSeven, you can find the version it was in debug.log
 526 2013-07-05 07:23:44 <sipa> 0.8.2 was only released on may 30th
 527 2013-07-05 07:23:45 <phantomcircuit> TheSeven, grep -F "Bitcoin version" debug.log
 528 2013-07-05 07:24:36 rawdr has joined
 529 2013-07-05 07:24:50 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: bitcoind also truncates debug.log on startup if it's over a certain size (which is likely if it was running for a while) :/
 530 2013-07-05 07:25:04 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, hmm that's true
 531 2013-07-05 07:25:51 <sipa> TheSeven: anyway, old news; 0.8.2 has significant memory usage improvements, and was released on may 30
 532 2013-07-05 07:26:06 <sipa> TheSeven: so you were likely using so,ething older
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 535 2013-07-05 07:28:37 <TheSeven> phantomcircuit: the old start messages have been pushed out of debug.log already
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 653 2013-07-05 10:23:55 <imton> why is btc going down? what did happen?
 654 2013-07-05 10:23:56 <imton> :(
 655 2013-07-05 10:24:19 <psychophoniac> asics?!
 656 2013-07-05 10:25:33 <psychophoniac> http://blockchain.info/de/charts/hash-rate?showDataPoints=false&show_header=true&daysAverageString=1&timespan=&scale=0&address=
 657 2013-07-05 10:25:43 <sipa> someone set us up the bomdlb
 658 2013-07-05 10:26:15 <psychophoniac> what is that?
 659 2013-07-05 10:26:23 <sipa> (for real discussion, try #bitcoin-pricetalk)
 660 2013-07-05 10:26:27 <sipa> google it
 661 2013-07-05 10:26:58 <psychophoniac> i tried... all it finds is bomb stuff :D
 662 2013-07-05 10:27:52 <sipa> search on youtube for 'all your base are belong to us'
 663 2013-07-05 10:28:15 <psychophoniac> md5 lookup table?
 664 2013-07-05 10:28:34 <psychophoniac> or alike?
 665 2013-07-05 10:29:53 <psychophoniac> oooh no - it is really a quote, knew about that all your base are belong to us, but not the full conversation
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 674 2013-07-05 10:53:17 <TD> sipa: YOU HAVE NO CHANCE MAKE YOUR TIME
 675 2013-07-05 10:53:57 swulf-- has joined
 676 2013-07-05 11:02:50 <TD> sipa: what is pull 2702 (leveldb refresh) waiting for?
 677 2013-07-05 11:04:36 <phantomcircuit> TD, wat
 678 2013-07-05 11:05:01 <phantomcircuit> lol why ar you still awak
 679 2013-07-05 11:05:10 <TD> huh?
 680 2013-07-05 11:06:04 <phantomcircuit> nvm
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 684 2013-07-05 11:18:07 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/saltstack/salt/commit/5dd304276ba5745ec21fc1e6686a0b28da29e6fc
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 686 2013-07-05 11:18:11 <Diablo-D3> I should be not laughing at this, but I am
 687 2013-07-05 11:18:46 <SomeoneWeird> ahahahahahahaha
 688 2013-07-05 11:19:37 <Diablo-D3> tl;dr: salt uses their own crypto code, and its lolbad
 689 2013-07-05 11:20:01 <Diablo-D3> their argument? "well, we could use ssh to tunnel shit, but its slower"
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 692 2013-07-05 11:20:56 <Diablo-D3> or using tls as well, same argument
 693 2013-07-05 11:21:14 <Diablo-D3> (neither are slow, and being able to have access to a wide range of crypto algos is a good thing)
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 698 2013-07-05 11:26:53 <Diablo-D3> http://revealjs.herokuapp.com/#/4
 699 2013-07-05 11:26:54 <Diablo-D3> lolwhat
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 702 2013-07-05 11:36:26 <t7> didnt even read the RSA wiki page...
 703 2013-07-05 11:36:31 <t7> for shame
 704 2013-07-05 11:41:54 <t7> why do people still think factoring primes is a hard problem. Everyone knows the NSA has quantum computers
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 706 2013-07-05 11:43:10 <Diablo-D3> t7: that aint even it
 707 2013-07-05 11:43:19 <Diablo-D3> theres already an entire fucking list of primes
 708 2013-07-05 11:43:21 <sturles> Depends on the size of the prime.  A 512 qubit quantum computer can't factor any number larger than 512 bits.
 709 2013-07-05 11:43:26 <Diablo-D3> sturles: no
 710 2013-07-05 11:43:39 <sturles> Yes.
 711 2013-07-05 11:43:40 <Diablo-D3> qubits != bits on quantum computers
 712 2013-07-05 11:43:49 <sturles> I know.
 713 2013-07-05 11:44:12 <Diablo-D3> qubits == evil aliens from outer space, clearly.
 714 2013-07-05 11:44:23 <sturles> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor%27s_algorithm
 715 2013-07-05 11:44:30 * Diablo-D3 is screwing with sturles 
 716 2013-07-05 11:44:46 <Diablo-D3> t7: anyhow, have an algo that needs a certain class of primes? theres a list for that.
 717 2013-07-05 11:44:54 <Diablo-D3> infact, they _print books_ full of lists of numbers
 718 2013-07-05 11:45:13 <Diablo-D3> theres even a website that has lists of lists of numbers
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 758 2013-07-05 13:30:53 <sturles> Primality testing is much easier than factoring, especially probabilistic tests.  You can be pretty certain wether a 2048 bit number is prime or not.  Certain like 1 to the number of sand particles in Sahara chance of a false positive.  Good enough for most purposes.
 759 2013-07-05 13:33:58 <Diablo-D3> sturles: yeah, but whats the largest prime we know of? I think its bigger than 2048
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 761 2013-07-05 13:34:09 <Diablo-D3> er 2048 bits
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 804 2013-07-05 13:41:13 <Guest31689> The largest known is a 57885161 bit mersenne prime
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1136 2013-07-05 16:54:39 <dhill> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/checkpoints.cpp#L37 -- what constitutes a strange transaction? is it simply a transaction that isn't one of the standard types?
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1304 2013-07-05 20:18:56 <matjeh> what does the hex string at tx[0].in[0].coinbase represent here? : http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/000000007bc154e0fa7ea32218a72fe2c1bb9f86cf8c9ebf9a715ed27fdb229a
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1310 2013-07-05 20:23:23 <imton> to use the sipa pull with "searchrawtransactions", do i have to run bitcoind with -addrindex=1 always?
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1316 2013-07-05 20:27:03 <warren> imton: add it to bitcoin.conf
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1407 2013-07-05 22:30:32 <imton> when you make a transfer, can the change go to the same addrs you originally received the btc from?
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1412 2013-07-05 22:31:12 <sipa> the protocol doesn't even know about change, so sure
1413 2013-07-05 22:31:18 <sipa> but you shouldn't
1414 2013-07-05 22:31:28 <sipa> for privacy reasons
1415 2013-07-05 22:32:08 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so wait
1416 2013-07-05 22:32:17 <Diablo-D3> the protocol is black and ran for president?
1417 2013-07-05 22:32:20 * Diablo-D3 runs
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1422 2013-07-05 22:35:39 <imton> sipa: thanks, I won't, I was just wondering.
1423 2013-07-05 22:36:21 <imton> sipa: and thank you for the searchrawtransactions
1424 2013-07-05 22:36:44 <sipa> i hate it when people say that
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1428 2013-07-05 22:41:22 <imton> sipa: sorry?
1429 2013-07-05 22:41:37 <sipa> imton: because i hate that patch myself :)
1430 2013-07-05 22:41:52 datagutt has joined
1431 2013-07-05 22:43:12 <imton> sipa: oh, well, but that patch function is really needed for servers.
1432 2013-07-05 22:43:21 <sipa> for what functionality?
1433 2013-07-05 22:43:26 <imton> sipa: what would be the ideal implementation ?
1434 2013-07-05 22:43:31 <sipa> not needing it
1435 2013-07-05 22:43:38 <imton> to search fo tx given a address
1436 2013-07-05 22:43:46 <sipa> what do you need that for?
1437 2013-07-05 22:43:59 <imton> a block explorer kind of service
1438 2013-07-05 22:44:08 <sipa> what do you need a block explorer for?
1439 2013-07-05 22:44:17 <BCB> is someone squatting naruFGT's nick??
1440 2013-07-05 22:44:20 <BCB> sorry
1441 2013-07-05 22:44:29 <sipa> i mean, it's very useful as a debug tool
1442 2013-07-05 22:44:31 <imton> sipa: kind of a new exchange, escrow system
1443 2013-07-05 22:44:32 ThomasV has joined
1444 2013-07-05 22:44:39 <sipa> but beyond thqt; nobody should need it
1445 2013-07-05 22:44:52 <sipa> i don't see why you need a blockexplorer for an escroaz
1446 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <imton> sipa: i need to know when the member sent btcs to an address, to get the txs and confirmations
1447 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <gmaxwell> imton: unless you're providing a debugging tool, depending on that kinda of data is setting yourself up for a world of hurt in the future.
1448 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <sipa> you don't need a blockexplorer to know when you receive a transaction
1449 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <imton> how can i know then when an address received a tx?
1450 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <sipa> are you talking in practice or in theory?
1451 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <imton> practice, i need to implement it like...now
1452 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <imton> :)
1453 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <sipa> in theory, you'd use a program that allows you to listen for transactions to a given address
1454 2013-07-05 22:48:01 <sipa> armory does allow that right now, and it's planned for the reference client too
1455 2013-07-05 22:48:28 <imton> ok. but how does that "listen" works..?
1456 2013-07-05 22:48:28 <sipa> in practice, there are some hacks that would zork, but nothing really decent if you want to use bitcoind (i'm sure that with bitcoinj or bitsofproof it's easier)
1457 2013-07-05 22:48:28 <sipa> you add a watch-only address to your wallet
1458 2013-07-05 22:48:37 <sipa> so you get a wallet that allows observing, but not spending
1459 2013-07-05 22:49:16 <sipa> and then all wallet APIs (listing transactions, notifications, computing balances, ... work)
1460 2013-07-05 22:49:18 <gmaxwell> imton: consider how deeply crazy it will be to carry around hundreds of gigabytes of indexes just to be able to look up a couple recent (/near future) transactions.
1461 2013-07-05 22:50:41 <sipa> imton: this is why i hate my patch: it will make people use it for solutions where a much nicer solutions (that doesn't exist yet) is possible, making it harder in the future to do things right
1462 2013-07-05 22:50:55 catcowllama is now known as catcow
1463 2013-07-05 22:51:01 <sipa> as infrastructure will grow that depends on a fully-indexed blockchain to always be accessible
1464 2013-07-05 22:51:06 <sipa> hurting future growth
1465 2013-07-05 22:51:10 <imton> ok. i get it, but there is not watch-only feature implemented right now..
1466 2013-07-05 22:51:25 <sipa> there is a pull request for it
1467 2013-07-05 22:51:35 <imton> yeah but it is old i think
1468 2013-07-05 22:51:43 <imton> does it still working?
1469 2013-07-05 22:51:52 <sipa> it doesn't stop working
1470 2013-07-05 22:51:58 <sipa> it's just not up-to-date
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1472 2013-07-05 22:52:14 <sipa> you can't merge it with current code, but you can use it as-is
1473 2013-07-05 22:52:41 <imton> ok. so died watch-only works the same way of you patch but only indexing addresses that you asked for, not all? am i right?
1474 2013-07-05 22:52:56 <sipa> it doesn't index anything
1475 2013-07-05 22:53:17 <imton> oh, it's "live"
1476 2013-07-05 22:53:20 <imton> ?
1477 2013-07-05 22:53:22 <sipa> it just makes the wallet consider transactions it sees to particular transactions considered "mine"
1478 2013-07-05 22:53:51 <sipa> the wallet and the blockchain database are completely separate
1479 2013-07-05 22:54:17 <imton> yeah, but it has to index/link/save that addresses to the txs
1480 2013-07-05 22:54:22 <imton> in the wallet i mean
1481 2013-07-05 22:54:28 <sipa> save them in the wallet, yes
1482 2013-07-05 22:54:29 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1483 2013-07-05 22:54:42 <sipa> which scales much more easily
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1485 2013-07-05 22:55:25 <imton> yeah…. i think i need to understand the difference between a tx that it's not confirmed and one that is. i know that the tx confirmed is one that is in at least 1 block (mined)
1486 2013-07-05 22:55:46 <imton> but i don't get where do all other tx that are not confirmed stay...
1487 2013-07-05 22:55:55 <sipa> in wallets
1488 2013-07-05 22:55:57 <imton> in everyone client?
1489 2013-07-05 22:55:58 <sipa> in the network
1490 2013-07-05 22:56:00 <sipa> in mempools
1491 2013-07-05 22:56:05 <imton> so everyone
1492 2013-07-05 22:56:08 <imton> right?
1493 2013-07-05 22:56:12 <sipa> yes and np
1494 2013-07-05 22:56:19 <sipa> nobody is reauired to remember them
1495 2013-07-05 22:56:53 <sipa> but they are broadcast, and full nodes verify them and remember them indeed
1496 2013-07-05 22:57:02 <sipa> in memory
1497 2013-07-05 22:57:34 <imton> ok. great.
1498 2013-07-05 22:57:44 <imton> thanks for that explanation too.
1499 2013-07-05 22:58:04 <imton> are you planing to add a watch-only feature soon ?
1500 2013-07-05 22:58:20 <imton> (aside for the pull req that is there)
1501 2013-07-05 22:59:08 <sipa> maybe
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1504 2013-07-05 23:01:36 <imton> may i ask, what are the current and future solutions for instant verifications (and micro payments) ?
1505 2013-07-05 23:08:10 <sipa> hehe
1506 2013-07-05 23:09:08 <imton> sipa: none? :s
1507 2013-07-05 23:10:57 <gmaxwell> imton: Such things are not part of bitcoin proper, you're asking the wrong person.
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1517 2013-07-05 23:11:19 <sipa> so, _on_ the block chain, micro payments (for some degree of micro) are not possible - there is just not enoguh space
1518 2013-07-05 23:11:30 <sipa> though a lot will depend on how bitcoin gets used in the future
1519 2013-07-05 23:12:07 <gmaxwell> _instant_ appears to be fundimentally incompatible with decenteralized. Micro is at least somewhat incompatible with distributed.
1520 2013-07-05 23:12:11 <sipa> instant verification... the blockchain can't offer any guaranteed protection without confirmations - any protection against double spending of nonconfirmed transactions is best effort at best
1521 2013-07-05 23:12:41 <sipa> that doesn't mean that bitcoin - through more complex transactions and interaction - can't help with those
1522 2013-07-05 23:12:43 <gmaxwell> Yea, if you don't care about protection against double spending— well, then we have instant transactions already.
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1525 2013-07-05 23:13:35 <sipa> there are payment channels for example, which allow a small transaction to be continuously renegotiated without blockchqin load
1526 2013-07-05 23:13:47 <sipa> incrementally increasing the amount
1527 2013-07-05 23:14:17 <sipa> and only broadcast for blockchain inclsuion once one of the peers stops updating
1528 2013-07-05 23:16:49 <sipa> BDB becomes AGPL? :o
1529 2013-07-05 23:18:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, you missed that discussion in here?
1530 2013-07-05 23:18:50 <sipa> apparently
1531 2013-07-05 23:18:54 <imton> ok. so if I send 2 tx signed with the same addrs/privkey, that's when it is consider double spending right? which tx is taken as accepted?
1532 2013-07-05 23:19:02 <imton> none, first one, last one?
1533 2013-07-05 23:19:11 <sipa> addresses have nothing to do with it
1534 2013-07-05 23:19:24 <sipa> double spending is creating two transactions that spend the same coin
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1536 2013-07-05 23:19:50 <gmaxwell> imton: uh. You should probably spend some time becoming familar with bitcoin before you start talking about creating escrow/exchange services for other people to use!
1537 2013-07-05 23:20:10 <sipa> if there are two outputs (=coins) assigned to the same addresses, both can be spent independently
1538 2013-07-05 23:20:11 <imton> i know addreses have nothing to do with it
1539 2013-07-05 23:20:43 <sipa> apparently you do have a fundamental misunderstandng still
1540 2013-07-05 23:20:54 <imton> that's why i am asking
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1542 2013-07-05 23:21:12 <sipa> read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
1543 2013-07-05 23:21:18 <imton> i already did
1544 2013-07-05 23:21:34 <imton> when you create a tx you sign it with a priv key of the address you received it to
1545 2013-07-05 23:21:37 <imton> right?
1546 2013-07-05 23:21:49 <sipa> every transaction has inputs
1547 2013-07-05 23:21:57 <sipa> each input refers to a previous output you received
1548 2013-07-05 23:21:57 <imton> yes
1549 2013-07-05 23:22:18 <sipa> and yes; that contains a signature using the private key corresponding to the address that output was sent to
1550 2013-07-05 23:22:29 <gmaxwell> The bitcoin system itself has really no concept of "addresses" and "private keys" or balances.
1551 2013-07-05 23:22:43 <imton> ok
1552 2013-07-05 23:22:48 <sipa> but you spend individual and specific previous outputs
1553 2013-07-05 23:23:05 <sipa> you don't spend "from an address" (implying you use all coins available to that address)
1554 2013-07-05 23:23:24 <imton> yeah, you specify the tx and the #
1555 2013-07-05 23:23:24 <sipa> you spend "from txid:n"
1556 2013-07-05 23:23:37 <sipa> so doubple spending means spending the same txid:n twice
1557 2013-07-05 23:23:39 <gmaxwell> There are transactions. Transactions create outputs. You can think of the outputs like little metal coins.  New transactions consume outputs from old transactions (atomically, which is why there is sometimes change).
1558 2013-07-05 23:24:11 <imton> yeah, that was what i was trying to say, i think i just wrote it wrong
1559 2013-07-05 23:24:21 <gmaxwell> Every output has a scriptpubkey: a list of rules that must be satisfied by a spending transaction for that spending transaction to be valid.
1560 2013-07-05 23:24:26 <sipa> just realize that addresses are just an authentication layer on top
1561 2013-07-05 23:24:44 <imton> yeah, scripts are awesome and a very cleaver feature.
1562 2013-07-05 23:24:45 <sipa> they are not the fundamental transfer mechanism
1563 2013-07-05 23:25:03 <sipa> (which is another reason why an address)index feels ugly)
1564 2013-07-05 23:25:05 <gmaxwell> In the common usage the scriptpubkey specifies something about using a hashed public key... and the scriptsig has the signature, but thats just how those common transactions are being used, nothing visible to the backend of the system.
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1570 2013-07-05 23:25:59 <gmaxwell> E.g. your comments sounded like you expected an IPv4 router to know something about URLs.  Wrong layer of abstraction.
1571 2013-07-05 23:26:56 <sipa> or that the laws of physics are concerned about humans
1572 2013-07-05 23:27:02 <imton> haha, ok. I should write more clear :)
1573 2013-07-05 23:27:12 <sipa> -ETOOPHILOSOPHIC
1574 2013-07-05 23:27:25 <imton> i am still learning tough
1575 2013-07-05 23:28:39 <imton> i want to hear feedback for my new startup/service… let me tell you my/our idea
1576 2013-07-05 23:29:19 <imton> it will be a p2p kind of escrow marketplace. instead of an exchange (centralized), you will find orders made by people and you will pay to people.
1577 2013-07-05 23:29:43 Vinnie_win_u has joined
1578 2013-07-05 23:29:47 <imton> so, it will be people centralized. we will not take any USD/real-money.
1579 2013-07-05 23:29:51 <imton> what do you think?
1580 2013-07-05 23:30:25 <sipa> you haven't explianed how it would work
1581 2013-07-05 23:30:40 <imton> ok, let's say you want to sell 10 btc.
1582 2013-07-05 23:31:07 <imton> you go there create a sell order, then we will match any buy order and the buyer will pay you directly.
1583 2013-07-05 23:31:15 <sipa> who is "we" ?
1584 2013-07-05 23:31:20 <imton> you sent the btc to us before
1585 2013-07-05 23:31:27 <imton> we is us, our system
1586 2013-07-05 23:31:30 <sipa> so you are a centralized party?
1587 2013-07-05 23:31:38 <imton> we are the mediator
1588 2013-07-05 23:32:05 <sipa> so... do i send coins to you, or to the seller?
1589 2013-07-05 23:32:27 Vinnie_win_u has quit (Client Quit)
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1591 2013-07-05 23:32:40 <imton> you send to us 10 btc , we hold them, until we find a buyer, then after the buyer pays you (which ever payment way you accord) , we release the btc to the buyer
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1593 2013-07-05 23:33:07 <sipa> sounds like a very traditional high)trust escrow
1594 2013-07-05 23:33:42 <imton> yeah, the idea is not so awesome but i hope we archive the implementation we want
1595 2013-07-05 23:33:53 <sipa> (as you can just run away with the money)
1596 2013-07-05 23:33:55 <imton> i mean, in them of experience, it has to be really smooth.
1597 2013-07-05 23:34:06 canar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8)
1598 2013-07-05 23:34:07 <imton> well, that's the main problem.
1599 2013-07-05 23:34:33 <imton> i was wondering if apart of trust people will have to us (if we deserve it)
1600 2013-07-05 23:34:36 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_2:_Escrow_and_dispute_mediation
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1602 2013-07-05 23:34:50 <sipa> you can build bitcoin escrow services (in theory) that do not require such trust
1603 2013-07-05 23:34:51 <imton> well, that was what i was about to ask you
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1606 2013-07-05 23:35:08 <imton> the problem is that we want to do this automatically
1607 2013-07-05 23:35:13 Guest34955 is now known as canar
1608 2013-07-05 23:35:26 <imton> so you (the seller of the btc) don't know the buyer until we found it
1609 2013-07-05 23:35:48 <imton> and if we want to make it automatically, we can't tell you the buyers address, we don't know it yet.
1610 2013-07-05 23:36:31 <imton> for a escrow tx seller should send the btc to 2 addresses right?
1611 2013-07-05 23:37:01 <sipa> yes
1612 2013-07-05 23:37:18 <imton> we don't know the buyer address until we found it
1613 2013-07-05 23:37:26 <imton> i was wondering...
1614 2013-07-05 23:37:47 <imton> could we build a way (script?) that only allows the second receiver to spend the btcs?
1615 2013-07-05 23:37:50 <imton> it
1616 2013-07-05 23:37:54 <imton> it is weird i know...
1617 2013-07-05 23:38:02 <imton> may not make sense...
1618 2013-07-05 23:38:26 <sipa> i have to go, sry
1619 2013-07-05 23:38:29 <imton> ok
1620 2013-07-05 23:38:37 <imton> no problem :) i will ask you later then :p
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1628 2013-07-05 23:45:19 <imton> is there a way to create a tx script in which that tx is not be able to spend it the first receiver?
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1632 2013-07-05 23:48:26 <imton> it doesn't make any sense, sorry to ask that
1633 2013-07-05 23:48:33 <TradeFortress> I've encountered a bug where bitcoind is not responding to any api calls
1634 2013-07-05 23:48:53 <TradeFortress> debug.log shows nothing other than previously it was connecting and reconncting to the same peer a lot. dos attack?
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1638 2013-07-05 23:57:28 <TradeFortress> I think this is kinda important. it looks like there is another dos bug in bitcoind
1639 2013-07-05 23:57:34 <TradeFortress> I'm running 0.8.3