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7 2013-07-07 00:22:57 * Luke-Jr just cut BFGMiner CPU usage from 35% to 16% by rewriting Con's hex2bin -.-
8 2013-07-07 00:23:21 * Luke-Jr wonders why hex2bin is even being used this often
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22 2013-07-07 00:47:30 <michagogo> What makes bitcoind/-qt decide to ResendWalletTransactions()?
23 2013-07-07 00:48:04 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: semi-random
24 2013-07-07 00:48:20 <michagogo> Is there a way to force it?
25 2013-07-07 00:48:24 XCortex has quit (Quit: 0out)
26 2013-07-07 00:49:08 <freewil> i thought it was every 30 minutes until it made it into a block
27 2013-07-07 00:49:35 <warren> your peers will hate you if you force it, I heard somewhere
28 2013-07-07 00:50:00 <michagogo> warren: There's one specific peer I need to get these
29 2013-07-07 00:50:21 <michagogo> (specifically, a patched bitcoind in a VM I'm using to mine)
30 2013-07-07 00:50:37 <michagogo> (all this being on the testnet)
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70 2013-07-07 02:22:52 <sipa> michagogo: a transactions with 0 outputs is invalid
71 2013-07-07 02:23:01 franl has joined
72 2013-07-07 02:23:20 <michagogo> sipa: Meaning it won't be relayed, or meaning a block with it in won't be accepted?
73 2013-07-07 02:24:00 <petertodd> both
74 2013-07-07 02:24:23 <michagogo> oic
75 2013-07-07 02:24:43 <michagogo> RPC createrawtransaction shouldn't allow it, then
76 2013-07-07 02:24:54 <michagogo> (if you pass {}, you get a result)
77 2013-07-07 02:25:05 <sipa> michagogo: invalid means invalid
78 2013-07-07 02:25:11 <petertodd> michagogo: nah, that's useful because you can edit the transaction later
79 2013-07-07 02:25:15 <michagogo> Ah
80 2013-07-07 02:25:27 <petertodd> michagogo: createrawtransactions lets you make invalid transactions in a *lot* of ways
81 2013-07-07 02:25:36 <sipa> in a block, it would make the block invalid
82 2013-07-07 02:26:14 <petertodd> michagogo: of course, it is unfortunate that zero output transactions are illegal, there's no good reason for that
83 2013-07-07 02:26:31 <michagogo> Erm.
84 2013-07-07 02:26:35 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
85 2013-07-07 02:26:43 <michagogo> Okay, I get that you can edit the transaction later
86 2013-07-07 02:26:58 <petertodd> michagogo: The inputs should go 100% to fees with no outputs.
87 2013-07-07 02:27:05 <michagogo> But this shouldn't happen:
88 2013-07-07 02:27:05 <michagogo> {"hex" : 01000000017ac4778dc6b5731f9f3da3966611ce7e9ddfb9d0d25674fa760c626d7a9b05f6000000006b483045022100a31ec768ee5036469fd313be209fbe0cbd3b37ff4fcd7b9db0065f9a1915b62702201e6562bee8ef1c4ceff0d4a8f4041cab9c6475dd4bfed4df8526cb3c02d1199701210235206363327e9b66cba001fc3ddcf9115b7d03df4167d139ff8c9d98864868fdffffffff0000000000",
89 2013-07-07 02:27:05 <michagogo> "complete" : true}
90 2013-07-07 02:27:45 <petertodd> why not?
91 2013-07-07 02:27:56 <petertodd> You know, you can combine transactions too
92 2013-07-07 02:28:06 <sipa> complete means all inputs are signed
93 2013-07-07 02:28:33 <petertodd> If you set SIGHASH_NONE you can use that signed incomplete transaction to add inputs to another one.
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179 2013-07-07 05:18:19 <The_Fly> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/07/07/017249/modeling-how-programmers-read-code
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250 2013-07-07 07:39:27 <warren> Annoyingly, share/setup.nsi has DOS endlines ...
251 2013-07-07 07:39:38 patcon has joined
252 2013-07-07 07:39:50 <petertodd> What's share/setup.nsi for?
253 2013-07-07 07:40:45 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara - Bitcoin is dead.)
254 2013-07-07 07:40:46 <warren> petertodd: gitian-win32.yml generates the win32 installer
255 2013-07-07 07:41:03 <petertodd> Ah, figures
256 2013-07-07 07:41:27 <walch> warren: ah hah! I was wondering what /share/pixmaps/nsis-wizard.bmp was used for.
257 2013-07-07 07:42:39 <Luke-Jr> "a Windows-only file has DOS end lines"⦠problem?
258 2013-07-07 07:43:28 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
259 2013-07-07 07:43:48 <warren> Luke-Jr: that file and gitian-win32.yml exists because the linux developers don't want to develop or build on windows? =)
260 2013-07-07 07:44:05 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
261 2013-07-07 07:44:15 <Luke-Jr> warren: you'd use setup.nsi to build on Windows too
262 2013-07-07 07:44:34 <Luke-Jr> warren: also, until recently, there were zero Windows developers after Satoshi left
263 2013-07-07 07:44:37 <Luke-Jr> now there's 1
264 2013-07-07 07:44:50 <warren> oh, who's the 1?
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270 2013-07-07 07:53:32 <Luke-Jr> warren: Diapolo
271 2013-07-07 07:54:09 <warren> ah
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279 2013-07-07 08:09:23 coolty has joined
280 2013-07-07 08:09:29 <coolty> hi anyone have testnet bitcoins?
281 2013-07-07 08:09:42 <coolty> please send some here: mr7DCHJKesThkFahYbCXwAZt859APTr5kD
282 2013-07-07 08:10:44 darsie has joined
283 2013-07-07 08:11:03 <darsie> what's the testnet difficulty?
284 2013-07-07 08:12:13 <coolty> dunno i think 0
285 2013-07-07 08:12:22 michagogo has joined
286 2013-07-07 08:12:32 <darsie> no one is mining?
287 2013-07-07 08:12:56 <darsie> How does testnet work when no one makes blocks?
288 2013-07-07 08:13:25 <darsie> Are testers expected to mine when they make test tx?
289 2013-07-07 08:14:46 adam3us has joined
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291 2013-07-07 08:18:37 <gmaxwell> darsie: why are you saying no one is mining?!
292 2013-07-07 08:19:01 <darsie> cause [09:44:04] <coolty> dunno i think 0
293 2013-07-07 08:19:08 <darsie> difficulty
294 2013-07-07 08:19:13 <gmaxwell> coolty is giving a clueless response there.
295 2013-07-07 08:19:21 <darsie> k
296 2013-07-07 08:19:39 <gmaxwell> The difficulty cannot be zero. (on testnet or otherwise)
297 2013-07-07 08:20:02 <darsie> no? What's the lowes theoretical difficulty?
298 2013-07-07 08:20:14 <gmaxwell> 1
299 2013-07-07 08:20:20 <darsie> k
300 2013-07-07 08:20:34 <gmaxwell> Last I looked testnet was at 200 or so, but testnet rules are special.
301 2013-07-07 08:20:51 <gmaxwell> in that after 20min without a block it permits a diff 1 block.
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303 2013-07-07 08:21:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: doesn't that tend to drive up difficulty on testnet?
304 2013-07-07 08:22:36 p1ng has joined
305 2013-07-07 08:23:50 <gmaxwell> doesn't matter at all.
306 2013-07-07 08:24:01 <michagogo> (also note that you can adjust your system cloak 20 minutes forward to mine at difficulty 1)
307 2013-07-07 08:24:08 <gmaxwell> kinda.
308 2013-07-07 08:24:19 <gmaxwell> michagogo: no one will accept blocks once you've entered the future.
309 2013-07-07 08:24:27 p1ng has left ()
310 2013-07-07 08:24:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I mean that for a given amount of hashing power, the fact that 20 minute periods get "filled" with diff 1 blocks pushes difficulty up compared to mainnet (which yes, does balance out)
311 2013-07-07 08:25:06 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Only once you're 2 hours ahead
312 2013-07-07 08:25:09 <gmaxwell> petertodd: 20 minutes is greater than the target, so diff goes down even if all the blocks are 20min blocks.
313 2013-07-07 08:25:20 <gmaxwell> michagogo: sure, which takes only 3 blocks.
314 2013-07-07 08:25:26 <michagogo> 6*
315 2013-07-07 08:25:44 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I guess I'm just pointing out that difficulty will be higher on testnet than mainnet for a given amount of mining activity.
316 2013-07-07 08:25:53 <petertodd> s/ativity/hashing power/
317 2013-07-07 08:26:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it wont anyways it will be a random number considering that the same rule also causes it to go back to 1 and get stuck there.
318 2013-07-07 08:26:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: true, on the 2016 boundry
319 2013-07-07 08:26:43 <michagogo> gmaxwell: 6, no? Also, once not-you mines a block, it (likely) will have the right timestamp, and you can move your clock back to 20 minutes ahead of real time
320 2013-07-07 08:27:20 <gmaxwell> michagogo: right 5 or 6. I'm typing in the dark while laying down.
321 2013-07-07 08:27:25 <michagogo> :)
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333 2013-07-07 08:50:10 <michagogo> Is there a way to `./bitcoind getnewaddress namehere` without all the addresses showing up in bitcoin-qt's Receive tab?
334 2013-07-07 08:50:11 wallet43 has joined
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336 2013-07-07 08:51:50 patcon has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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340 2013-07-07 08:53:10 <Someguy123> michagogo, not really
341 2013-07-07 08:53:19 <michagogo> I see.
342 2013-07-07 08:53:38 <Someguy123> it's usually a good idea to not use bitcoin-qt for any daemon sort-of activities
343 2013-07-07 08:53:44 <Someguy123> or your recieve tab just gets flooded.
344 2013-07-07 08:54:15 <michagogo> Someguy123: Yeah, I'm testing something
345 2013-07-07 08:54:29 <michagogo> And I'm drawing a couple hundred addresses :-/
346 2013-07-07 08:55:12 <Someguy123> michagogo, you can try to set them all under the same label/account
347 2013-07-07 08:55:17 <michagogo> I am
348 2013-07-07 08:55:17 <coolty> t
349 2013-07-07 08:55:46 <Someguy123> setaccount <bitcoinaddress> <account>
350 2013-07-07 08:56:08 <michagogo> Basically, I have a bit of ruby code looping `bitcoind -testnet -rpcuser=foo -rpcpassword=bar getnewaddress "baz"`
351 2013-07-07 08:56:31 <michagogo> And it seems to be creating a new row in the Receive tab for each one
352 2013-07-07 08:56:54 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
353 2013-07-07 08:57:17 <michagogo> Someguy123: Aha, that made it vanish
354 2013-07-07 08:57:52 <michagogo> After this finishes I'll feed that into setaccount
355 2013-07-07 08:57:56 <michagogo> Thanks!
356 2013-07-07 08:57:58 jeewee has joined
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361 2013-07-07 09:09:40 <darsie> Is blockchain syncing done sequentially or does it download blocks simultaneously from each peer?
362 2013-07-07 09:10:04 <michagogo> darsie: It's sequential
363 2013-07-07 09:10:27 <darsie> make it parallel
364 2013-07-07 09:10:41 <michagogo> Which really sucks if you happen to be pulling from a slow peer
365 2013-07-07 09:10:54 <darsie> I have 8 connections.
366 2013-07-07 09:11:09 <michagogo> darsie: The problem is that you need to get the blocks before you know which blocks to get next
367 2013-07-07 09:11:24 <michagogo> darsie: If you're syncing a new client on mainnet, consider using bootstrap.dat: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0;all
368 2013-07-07 09:11:55 <michagogo> Download the file from the bittorrent swarm, and drop it in datadir -- the client will import from it
369 2013-07-07 09:11:55 <darsie> I know I have block 1-x so I want the next 8 blocks.
370 2013-07-07 09:12:13 <michagogo> darsie: Right, but you don't ask for blocks by number
371 2013-07-07 09:12:13 <darsie> My mainnet is synced. Syncing testnet atm.
372 2013-07-07 09:12:18 <michagogo> You ask for them by hash
373 2013-07-07 09:12:21 <michagogo> Ah, I see.
374 2013-07-07 09:12:22 <darsie> hmm
375 2013-07-07 09:12:45 <darsie> So, ask for them by number?
376 2013-07-07 09:12:56 <darsie> Or d/l the hashes.
377 2013-07-07 09:13:38 <michagogo> darsie: The problem would be that you wouldn't know there was a problem until you got all the blocks
378 2013-07-07 09:14:05 <michagogo> darsie: People *have* been talking about headers-first sync. I don't know if it's being actively worked on, code-wise.
379 2013-07-07 09:14:21 <darsie> Seeing a problem after downloading them is fine, I guess.
380 2013-07-07 09:15:27 <darsie> I mean, blocks wolud be downloaded semisequential. The oldest outstanding blocks first. 8 downloads concurrently.
381 2013-07-07 09:16:14 <michagogo> darsie: Not if you download a 200k long chain only to notice at the end that you're missing one in the middle and you've DL'd tens of thousands of orphan blocks
382 2013-07-07 09:20:44 <michagogo> I wonder if anyone's made a bootstrap.dat for testnet
383 2013-07-07 09:20:52 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
384 2013-07-07 09:21:06 <darsie> You can request the next sequence of hashes after a given block from each peer and if there's a discrepancy ... well, you gotta decide which branch you follow. You could end up with orphaned blocks if you dl them from a peer on a orphan branch, too.
385 2013-07-07 09:22:35 <michagogo> darsie: I'm pretty sure there was a reason that doesn't work, but I don't remember off the top of my head. Maybe someone else knows.
386 2013-07-07 09:22:46 peetaur2 has joined
387 2013-07-07 09:23:58 <gmaxwell> it's mildly tricky to write the software for (esp in a dos attack resistant manner), and until somewhat recently it wasn't a performance limiting factor.
388 2013-07-07 09:24:01 <gmaxwell> thats all.
389 2013-07-07 09:24:44 <gmaxwell> (and before you contradict me and insist that its easy, I'll say in advance: I look forward to reviewing your patch.)
390 2013-07-07 09:25:11 <darsie> k
391 2013-07-07 09:26:11 <gmaxwell> (The thing to do is sync the headers aheadâ so you now that the blocks your fetching are at least for the longest possibly valid chain; this also tells you what blocks you need and removes a bunch of possible DOS vectors.)
392 2013-07-07 09:26:48 <michagogo> [11:56:36] <gmaxwell> (and before you contradict me and insist that its easy, I'll say in advance: I look forward to reviewing your patch.)
393 2013-07-07 09:26:48 <michagogo> :-P
394 2013-07-07 09:27:15 <michagogo> gmaxwell: I've heard talk of headers-only syncing, was this something being actively developed/worked on?
395 2013-07-07 09:27:48 <michagogo> (also, I assume it could be implemented in addition to regular syncing, so without any kind of fork or anything, right?)
396 2013-07-07 09:28:05 <gmaxwell> Headers _first_ only makes no sense, if you're not making an error there that I don't know what you're talking about.
397 2013-07-07 09:29:30 <michagogo> gmaxwell: I meant headers-first, ofc
398 2013-07-07 09:30:12 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
399 2013-07-07 09:30:22 <gmaxwell> so varrious other changes have moved things more in the direction of it being possible, but I don't believe that anyone is working specifically on it at the moment.
400 2013-07-07 09:31:11 MobiusL has joined
401 2013-07-07 09:34:12 <darsie> I'm stuck at testnet block 80991. Will it timeout and try from a different peer? I thought of restarting anyways to connect to a faster peer.
402 2013-07-07 09:35:35 <michagogo> darsie: If you can somehow reset the network connection that might work
403 2013-07-07 09:36:13 CodeShark has joined
404 2013-07-07 09:36:42 <darsie> restarted. Going much faster now. :)
405 2013-07-07 09:37:01 Eiii has quit ()
406 2013-07-07 09:39:55 Diapolis has joined
407 2013-07-07 09:39:55 <michagogo> darsie: Are you IRCing from the same machine as you're running bitcoin on?
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415 2013-07-07 09:44:34 <darsie> michagogo: yes
416 2013-07-07 09:44:35 <darsie> why?
417 2013-07-07 09:45:17 <michagogo> Ah, so you just aren't accepting incoming connections
418 2013-07-07 09:45:35 <michagogo> (addnode your-address onetry didn't work)
419 2013-07-07 09:45:36 <darsie> Hmm, I'm behind NAT.
420 2013-07-07 09:45:38 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
421 2013-07-07 09:46:02 <michagogo> Yeah, that could do it
422 2013-07-07 09:46:42 andyh2 has joined
423 2013-07-07 09:47:42 peetaur2 has joined
424 2013-07-07 09:47:43 <darsie> I could allow incoming connections on the router ...
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432 2013-07-07 09:53:10 <darsie> michagogo: try again
433 2013-07-07 09:53:28 imton_ has joined
434 2013-07-07 09:53:31 <darsie> testnet just finished syncing.
435 2013-07-07 09:54:03 <michagogo> darsie: Looks like you're a couple versions out of date :-P
436 2013-07-07 09:54:22 <darsie> k ...
437 2013-07-07 09:54:42 peetaur2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
438 2013-07-07 09:54:42 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
439 2013-07-07 09:54:43 imton_ is now known as imton
440 2013-07-07 09:54:46 <darsie> How do I know I mined a block (on testnet)?
441 2013-07-07 09:55:02 <darsie> I'll take it to #bitcoin-mining ...
442 2013-07-07 09:58:54 peetaur2 has joined
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453 2013-07-07 10:10:36 michagogo is now known as mchgg
454 2013-07-07 10:12:29 <warren> cool! p2pool-13 is released. hardfork with sharechain miner vote.
455 2013-07-07 10:12:52 <warren> it should be a lot more ASIC friendly
456 2013-07-07 10:13:11 <mchgg> What is it?
457 2013-07-07 10:13:33 <warren> mchgg: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313
458 2013-07-07 10:13:40 <warren> mchgg: the ultimate in mining decentralization
459 2013-07-07 10:13:48 <mchgg> No, I mean what changed?
460 2013-07-07 10:13:50 <warren> (assuming there are no bugs...
461 2013-07-07 10:13:51 <warren> oh
462 2013-07-07 10:13:54 <warren> mchgg: read the commits
463 2013-07-07 10:14:08 <petertodd> oh, and the OP_RETURN too, nice!
464 2013-07-07 10:14:33 <mchgg> What OP_RETURN?
465 2013-07-07 10:14:55 <petertodd> marks a transaction output as unspendable
466 2013-07-07 10:15:17 <petertodd> in a standard way so they can be removed from the UTXO set
467 2013-07-07 10:15:35 <mchgg> I know what that *is*, where is it being used here?
468 2013-07-07 10:16:23 <petertodd> P2Pool is using it for the dummy txout they include in blocks
469 2013-07-07 10:17:54 Grishnakh_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
470 2013-07-07 10:17:59 <mchgg> Why do they include a dummy txout?
471 2013-07-07 10:18:08 <petertodd> They have to for the share chain
472 2013-07-07 10:18:12 Grishnakh_ has joined
473 2013-07-07 10:18:50 <petertodd> It can't go in the coinbase or it'd limit what can go in there - bad for merge mining.
474 2013-07-07 10:21:45 Eneerge has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
475 2013-07-07 10:25:08 <forrestv> mchgg, and the bigger reason is that it's at the end of the transaction, so everything prior to it can be compressed into a SHA256 midstate
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489 2013-07-07 10:42:46 mchgg is now known as ogogahcim
490 2013-07-07 10:42:48 ogogahcim is now known as michagogo
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496 2013-07-07 11:00:44 <warren> Dang. The -win32-setup.exe never was deterministic huh?
497 2013-07-07 11:01:52 jeewee has joined
498 2013-07-07 11:07:04 datagutt has joined
499 2013-07-07 11:18:34 <michagogo> warren: Hmm?
500 2013-07-07 11:18:48 agnostic98 has joined
501 2013-07-07 11:18:51 <michagogo> I think it is...
502 2013-07-07 11:22:01 coeus has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
503 2013-07-07 11:22:45 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
504 2013-07-07 11:24:01 <warren> michagogo: huh? it is never the same in my gitian builds
505 2013-07-07 11:24:48 <michagogo> warren: check gitian.sigs
506 2013-07-07 11:26:23 <warren> michagogo: I'm building an alt coin. everything but the installer is deterministic. If it's supposed to be determinisic then I must have broke something myself.
507 2013-07-07 11:26:40 viperhr1 has joined
508 2013-07-07 11:26:48 <michagogo> warren: A couple versions back, the setup was being non-deterministic
509 2013-07-07 11:26:53 <michagogo> I don't remember how it got fixed
510 2013-07-07 11:27:46 <michagogo> (check the commits around then?)
511 2013-07-07 11:29:44 <warren> I've been without sleep for too long
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542 2013-07-07 12:24:15 <warren> michagogo: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8ab6d0a568013530c2df105fcc7c8dbdc894f74e
543 2013-07-07 12:24:17 <warren> michagogo: this?
544 2013-07-07 12:24:29 <michagogo> Maybe, yeah
545 2013-07-07 12:24:39 <michagogo> (look at gitian.sigs around that time?)
546 2013-07-07 12:24:59 <michagogo> (the 0.8.2 rc builds)
547 2013-07-07 12:25:05 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
548 2013-07-07 12:25:24 <michagogo> (specifically, check if rc2 was non-deterministic while rc3 was)
549 2013-07-07 12:30:26 <warren> is the procedure of joining gitian.sigs documented?
550 2013-07-07 12:30:58 <warren> Gavin used my gitian hashes as part of releasing 0.8.2 and 0.8.3 ... and I didn't know about the pull request and sigs
551 2013-07-07 12:34:27 <michagogo> warren: What do you mean "joining"?
552 2013-07-07 12:36:10 <warren> michagogo: apparently the only people that count by some official release rule are people already included sometime in the past, and there is no procedure for adding more people, perhaps at a lesser trust level?
553 2013-07-07 12:37:05 frank_ has joined
554 2013-07-07 12:37:17 <michagogo> warren: Hmm? Idk.
555 2013-07-07 12:37:23 ielo has joined
556 2013-07-07 12:37:29 <michagogo> All I know is that my PRs have been merged
557 2013-07-07 12:38:55 <warren> michagogo: I spent a dozen hours porting gitian to fedora. It's true that I haven't contributed much to upstream yet, but given I do gitian builds very often and I have a high level of trust from my other FOSS projects, I can be helpful in the release process here as another gitian verifier. there is however no process for new people to matter.
558 2013-07-07 12:39:08 <michagogo> define "matter"
559 2013-07-07 12:39:34 <warren> hmm, it isn't in my scrollback anymore
560 2013-07-07 12:39:48 <warren> there was a discussion about this right after the rushed release of 0.8.3
561 2013-07-07 12:40:57 <michagogo> Do you remember the date?
562 2013-07-07 12:41:12 <warren> it was within the hour or two after 0.8.3 was released
563 2013-07-07 12:41:25 <michagogo> When was that?
564 2013-07-07 12:41:32 <warren> someone complained to Gavin that he bypassed the release procedure
565 2013-07-07 12:41:39 <warren> i'm trying to find it in logs
566 2013-07-07 12:41:50 <michagogo> I can find it if you know the date
567 2013-07-07 12:42:01 <michagogo> Actually, I can check commit dates on gitian.sigs
568 2013-07-07 12:42:22 <warren> 6-25
569 2013-07-07 12:42:34 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
570 2013-07-07 12:42:52 <michagogo> probably on http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/06/25 then
571 2013-07-07 12:44:14 <michagogo> 21:54, I think
572 2013-07-07 12:44:23 <warren> BlueMatt warren: everyone is welcome, but the rule is to wait for 3-from-the-somewhat-arbitrary-gitian-list
573 2013-07-07 12:44:42 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
574 2013-07-07 12:45:22 <warren> It seems to me that any Ubuntu user can follow a simple procedure to learn how to gitian build, and you can easily have a hundred people testing it within minutes of a call for verification.
575 2013-07-07 12:45:46 <warren> and Luke-Jr's Gentoo and my fedora gitian port makes it even easier
576 2013-07-07 12:46:09 fluxbox__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
577 2013-07-07 12:46:34 <michagogo> Hmm
578 2013-07-07 12:46:35 <michagogo> 22:03 BlueMatt warren: you are even more welcome to implement a better system than the somewhat arbitrary was-here-when-the-list-was-made/has-git-push list we have now :)
579 2013-07-07 12:46:37 dave4925 has joined
580 2013-07-07 12:46:47 <michagogo> When was the list made, does anyone know
581 2013-07-07 12:46:47 <michagogo> ?
582 2013-07-07 12:47:17 <michagogo> Also, I'm wondering about the details of:
583 2013-07-07 12:47:17 <michagogo> 21:57 BlueMatt gmaxwell: well, we briefly discussed actually following the rules that we set after 0.8.1
584 2013-07-07 12:47:17 <michagogo> 21:57 BlueMatt (and did for 0.8.2)
585 2013-07-07 12:47:17 <michagogo> 21:57 BlueMatt (that were set at like 0.4)
586 2013-07-07 12:47:26 dave4925_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
587 2013-07-07 12:47:27 <warren> michagogo: I need to implement a better system for my own team, so might as well do it for Bitcoin too.
588 2013-07-07 12:47:47 <warren> michagogo: I'm wondering where these rules are written
589 2013-07-07 12:47:53 <michagogo> me too
590 2013-07-07 12:47:59 <sipa> nowhere
591 2013-07-07 12:48:02 <warren> tribal knowledge is awesome
592 2013-07-07 12:48:16 <michagogo> Well, 0.8.1 came out 06-09
593 2013-07-07 12:48:29 <michagogo> Erm, no
594 2013-07-07 12:48:34 <michagogo> 03-17*
595 2013-07-07 12:48:40 <warren> 0.8.1 was in response to the 3/12 accident
596 2013-07-07 12:48:48 <sipa> there was sort ofn informal rule that we waited for 3 trusted people to verify a build before relase, but even that rule hasn't been followed very strictly
597 2013-07-07 12:48:48 <michagogo> 06-09 was when sipa added his sigs
598 2013-07-07 12:49:15 <sipa> but i agree, if we want to get this working better, it must become easier
599 2013-07-07 12:49:26 <michagogo> I'm going to the logs to see if I can find this discussion (21:57 BlueMatt gmaxwell: well, we briefly discussed actually following the rules that we set after 0.8.1)
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608 2013-07-07 13:02:26 <BlueMatt> hmm, strange
609 2013-07-07 13:02:32 <sipa> fixed?
610 2013-07-07 13:02:42 <BlueMatt> tyea
611 2013-07-07 13:02:43 <BlueMatt> yea
612 2013-07-07 13:02:49 wiretapped has joined
613 2013-07-07 13:02:49 <BlueMatt> just had to part to change nick for some reason...
614 2013-07-07 13:03:01 <michagogo> Hmm, I can't find the discussion BlueMatt mentioned from the 17th through the 21st of March
615 2013-07-07 13:03:05 <imton> sipa: searchrawtransactions may stop indexing txs for some reason?
616 2013-07-07 13:03:20 <BlueMatt> warren: the list kinda grew organically
617 2013-07-07 13:03:31 <BlueMatt> at the time it was essentially list of people with git commit + those helping with gitian stuff
618 2013-07-07 13:03:42 <warren> well, that describes me now
619 2013-07-07 13:03:44 <michagogo> [15:34:41] <BlueMatt> just had to part to change nick for some reason...
620 2013-07-07 13:03:44 <michagogo> Because you weren't identified to nickserv and the channel is +q $~a
621 2013-07-07 13:03:46 <BlueMatt> michagogo: ^
622 2013-07-07 13:04:06 <BlueMatt> fucking overcomplicated irc...
623 2013-07-07 13:04:07 <michagogo> BlueMatt: If you'd ID'd, you'd have been able to change nick
624 2013-07-07 13:04:19 <sipa> wizkid057: no
625 2013-07-07 13:04:20 <BlueMatt> well I had to change my nick to auto-id on the bouncer side
626 2013-07-07 13:04:25 <BlueMatt> (Im too lazy to know my password)
627 2013-07-07 13:04:29 <michagogo> BlueMatt: /msg nickserv id-
628 2013-07-07 13:04:29 <michagogo> ah
629 2013-07-07 13:04:32 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
630 2013-07-07 13:04:33 <warren> the current procedure is too high a bar. Why not have trusted people and a mass number of untrusted all do it.
631 2013-07-07 13:04:44 <BlueMatt> warren: yes, that would be a good system
632 2013-07-07 13:04:46 <sipa> eh
633 2013-07-07 13:04:46 <BlueMatt> go implement it!
634 2013-07-07 13:04:49 <sipa> imton: no
635 2013-07-07 13:04:55 * SomeoneWeird is trusted
636 2013-07-07 13:05:04 * SomeoneWeird points gun at room
637 2013-07-07 13:05:07 <BlueMatt> warren: mostly implement something which verifies sigs in such a system
638 2013-07-07 13:05:12 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Solution: set up your bouncer to use SSL with a client certificate
639 2013-07-07 13:05:28 <BlueMatt> michagogo: overcomplicated...
640 2013-07-07 13:05:31 <warren> BlueMatt: trouble with an automated system is it becomes a centralized trust system...
641 2013-07-07 13:05:32 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Not really
642 2013-07-07 13:05:47 <BlueMatt> warren: probably based on https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/blob/master/share/gitian_updater.py
643 2013-07-07 13:06:03 <michagogo> BlueMatt: You just generate a certificate, give it to your bouncer, and tell nickserv about it
644 2013-07-07 13:06:16 <BlueMatt> warren: well come up with a decentralized way that allows $MY_GRANDMA to use it without making it overcomplicated for her
645 2013-07-07 13:07:49 nowan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
646 2013-07-07 13:07:53 <nsh> pickle($BlueMatts_GRANDMA)
647 2013-07-07 13:08:26 <sipa> if a decentralized verification systems boils down to "download and run X", it's pretty pointless
648 2013-07-07 13:08:28 <warren> even the bitcoin-otc database is worryingly centralized
649 2013-07-07 13:08:35 <warren> yeah, it uses crypto to verify entry
650 2013-07-07 13:08:36 <sipa> you at least need someone who understands what is going on
651 2013-07-07 13:08:40 <warren> but the database itself can be compromised
652 2013-07-07 13:08:49 <BlueMatt> its better than what we have now
653 2013-07-07 13:08:57 <BlueMatt> and as long as some percent of people verify X
654 2013-07-07 13:09:03 <BlueMatt> then its at least reasonable
655 2013-07-07 13:09:21 * BlueMatt is more concerned about mitm while updating than mitm during initial download
656 2013-07-07 13:09:22 hnz has joined
657 2013-07-07 13:09:40 <imton> sipa: so should "-txindex=1 -addrindex=1" be the same as if I add that to the conf file?
658 2013-07-07 13:09:48 <warren> gavinandresen The only criteria for being on the list should be "is not a sockpuppet of somebody already on the list"
659 2013-07-07 13:10:39 <michagogo> imton: yes
660 2013-07-07 13:10:47 <sipa> imton: yes
661 2013-07-07 13:11:10 <michagogo> BTW, where is this list maintained?
662 2013-07-07 13:11:47 <sipa> for a long time, it was just "those who have access to the gitian repo"
663 2013-07-07 13:11:55 <sipa> there were no others doing builds anyway
664 2013-07-07 13:11:56 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
665 2013-07-07 13:12:02 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/contrib/gitian-downloader/ *-download-config
666 2013-07-07 13:12:09 <warren> BlueMatt: should I submit a PR for my own sig now? meanwhile I need to come up with a better system for my own team, so might as well propose it for both teams, and heck both teams can verify each other.
667 2013-07-07 13:12:14 <BlueMatt> to be clear: the list isnt used anywhere....
668 2013-07-07 13:12:15 daybyter has joined
669 2013-07-07 13:12:27 <imton> sips michagogo: well guys, I am on testnet and an address tx wasn't indexed for "searchrawtransactions". 2 of 3 tx were showing ok , 1 missing. I reindexed and it appeared.
670 2013-07-07 13:12:30 <BlueMatt> warren: there really isnt any point
671 2013-07-07 13:12:32 <warren> teams that somewhat distrust each other can be good to verify gitian
672 2013-07-07 13:12:38 <BlueMatt> no one uses the list for anything currently :(
673 2013-07-07 13:12:43 <imton> sipa michagogo : bug?
674 2013-07-07 13:12:46 <sipa> imton: perhaps
675 2013-07-07 13:12:50 <SomeoneWeird> <warren> but the database itself can be compromised < the database is open source..
676 2013-07-07 13:12:51 <sipa> imton: i have no time to look at it now
677 2013-07-07 13:12:58 <SomeoneWeird> er, s/open source/public
678 2013-07-07 13:13:24 <warren> BlueMatt: then why did someone complain about violating the unwritten release rules? ...
679 2013-07-07 13:13:27 <BlueMatt> warren: it would be nice if someone dealt with the remaining like 2 things required for gitian downloads to even be possible
680 2013-07-07 13:13:40 <warren> what exactly is gitian downloads supposed to do?
681 2013-07-07 13:13:43 <BlueMatt> warren: that was me, and because when releases happen with like 2 sigs its not nice...
682 2013-07-07 13:14:00 GordonG3kko has joined
683 2013-07-07 13:14:03 <warren> BlueMatt: there were three, i just didn't do it through a PR
684 2013-07-07 13:14:12 <imton> sipa: ok. fyi the missing tx was correcting being shown when doing *getrawtransaction* (btw, this address wasn't in the wallet)
685 2013-07-07 13:14:24 <imton> *correctly '
686 2013-07-07 13:14:27 <warren> BlueMatt: I might have been the first to respond to Gavin in the past two releases
687 2013-07-07 13:14:57 <sipa> imton: ok, interesting
688 2013-07-07 13:15:11 fluxbox has joined
689 2013-07-07 13:15:14 <BlueMatt> warren: also, because I keep wanting to actually enable gitian-downloads, and that means we need 3 sigs from the list at release time
690 2013-07-07 13:15:48 <warren> BlueMatt: is gitian downloader supposed to be a trustworthy way for users to automatically update because N-of-M decentralized trusted leaders all agreed with GPG on signatures?
691 2013-07-07 13:16:19 <warren> If it's meant to be automated where users don't need to worry, 3 isn't enough, I think.
692 2013-07-07 13:16:22 <BlueMatt> essentially
693 2013-07-07 13:16:44 <BlueMatt> we dont get more than 3 builders now...how are we supposed to require more than we can ever get?
694 2013-07-07 13:16:50 <michagogo> Also, it looks like it's not necessarily a certain number
695 2013-07-07 13:16:59 <BlueMatt> its a certain total weight
696 2013-07-07 13:17:01 <pigeons> or N-of-M all have the backdoor
697 2013-07-07 13:17:03 <BlueMatt> each signer gets a weight
698 2013-07-07 13:17:07 <michagogo> But rather a certain weight, where different users can be given more weight than others
699 2013-07-07 13:17:10 <michagogo> yeah
700 2013-07-07 13:17:22 <BlueMatt> pigeons: and right now its N all have the backdoor
701 2013-07-07 13:17:26 <imton> sipa: could it be added to *searchrawtransactions* the txs "made from" this address ? I need to implement an address balance feature an i am missing the "spent" data...
702 2013-07-07 13:17:28 <BlueMatt> so its a shitton better
703 2013-07-07 13:17:40 <sipa> imton: that's supposed to work
704 2013-07-07 13:17:46 ousado has left ("--")
705 2013-07-07 13:17:57 <sipa> imton: it indexes the output scripts and the output scripts being consumed
706 2013-07-07 13:17:57 <warren> BlueMatt: apparently at 0.8.2 gmaxwell was amazed when my fedora gitian actually matched Gavin's build. Which makes me wonder if gmaxwell and jgarzik (a fedora users) participate in gitian verification? And petertodd today said he doesn't do it. The top trusted leaders don't do it?
707 2013-07-07 13:18:11 <imton> sipa: sorry? right now? I only get the received txs
708 2013-07-07 13:18:19 <BlueMatt> warren: up until recently jgarzik couldn't due to patent stuff
709 2013-07-07 13:18:20 <sipa> imton: really? :o
710 2013-07-07 13:18:25 <sipa> imton: it also only indexes the blockchain; so it doesn't work for unconfirmed transactions
711 2013-07-07 13:18:26 <warren> BlueMatt: ah
712 2013-07-07 13:18:26 <BlueMatt> warren: and we've had lots of problems with gitian matching
713 2013-07-07 13:18:32 <imton> sipa: i think so...
714 2013-07-07 13:18:34 <BlueMatt> because no one has time to fix it (nor cared)
715 2013-07-07 13:18:40 <sipa> imton: when i last tested it worked fine
716 2013-07-07 13:18:50 <imton> sipa: ok. let me check...
717 2013-07-07 13:18:59 <warren> I fixed part of TheUni's autotools for determinism
718 2013-07-07 13:19:03 <BlueMatt> warren: which is exactly why I wasnt happy when releases briefly happened according to gitian policy, and then went back
719 2013-07-07 13:19:49 <sipa> to be realistic, if gitian building and verification are just a pain that we can't even find 3 people to do it, there is just no reason to
720 2013-07-07 13:20:03 <warren> there is plenty reason to
721 2013-07-07 13:20:06 <warren> and it really isn't hard
722 2013-07-07 13:20:18 <warren> i got my entire Litecoin team to do it by giving them step-by-step instructions
723 2013-07-07 13:20:22 <michagogo> BlueMatt: patent stuff
724 2013-07-07 13:20:23 <michagogo> ?
725 2013-07-07 13:20:30 <warren> michagogo: seriously, don't as
726 2013-07-07 13:20:31 <warren> ask
727 2013-07-07 13:20:38 <michagogo> What patent stuff?
728 2013-07-07 13:20:43 <sipa> well, if people were to demand deterministically verified builds, it would happen
729 2013-07-07 13:20:52 <sipa> but nobody seems to care about it except those that build it
730 2013-07-07 13:20:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: its not, if we have someone who has time to make sure the builds work properly, but when they dont match, the usual response is "oh well"
731 2013-07-07 13:20:58 <sipa> which is a pity
732 2013-07-07 13:21:11 <sipa> i think the time of release is too late
733 2013-07-07 13:21:19 <BlueMatt> this is why I tried to do auto-update that worked
734 2013-07-07 13:21:21 <michagogo> [15:51:40] <sipa> to be realistic, if gitian building and verification are just a pain that we can't even find 3 people to do it, there is just no reason to
735 2013-07-07 13:21:21 <michagogo> I don't understand how it's a pain
736 2013-07-07 13:21:25 <BlueMatt> but...no one cared :p
737 2013-07-07 13:21:34 <sipa> michagogo: to me it's not, but i'm biased
738 2013-07-07 13:21:35 <warren> the litecoin team currently builds twice per user and records hashes in a google doc, each user uses two factor auth. that made it easy for them to actually do it.
739 2013-07-07 13:21:42 <BlueMatt> maybe someday someone will revive it
740 2013-07-07 13:21:42 <warren> yeah, it isn't GPG secure
741 2013-07-07 13:21:42 <michagogo> When a new release it tagged, I reboot into Ubuntu, paste a couple commands into Terminal, and wait
742 2013-07-07 13:21:45 <michagogo> That's it
743 2013-07-07 13:21:45 <sipa> i'm just observing that nobody really cares about it but us
744 2013-07-07 13:22:05 <michagogo> Really not a big deal
745 2013-07-07 13:22:09 <warren> well, my team cares about it now, and we can help bitcoin verification too
746 2013-07-07 13:22:14 <michagogo> (in terms of difficulty/hassle)
747 2013-07-07 13:22:14 <BlueMatt> sipa: mostly it is a prerequisite for auto-update
748 2013-07-07 13:22:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: which, since no one cares about that either, means no one cares about gitian
749 2013-07-07 13:22:33 <warren> my team is even interested in gitian mac cross-compiling
750 2013-07-07 13:22:44 <BlueMatt> warren: talk to the tor guys about that one
751 2013-07-07 13:22:58 <warren> BlueMatt: I already forwarded all that info to our mac dev
752 2013-07-07 13:23:06 agnostic98 has joined
753 2013-07-07 13:23:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: well i don't care enough about windows to work on that, indeed
754 2013-07-07 13:23:36 <warren> BlueMatt: can we find funding to pay him? this guy is GOOD but we can't afford to pay him enough
755 2013-07-07 13:23:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: neither do I, really...
756 2013-07-07 13:24:05 <BlueMatt> warren: pay who?
757 2013-07-07 13:24:17 <sipa> so there's no problem - complaining "someone should do this!" will not make it happen
758 2013-07-07 13:24:34 <sipa> and that may be a pity, but it doesn't really mean anything for gitian builds
759 2013-07-07 13:24:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: sorry, I do care enough to do it, but I never have nearly enough time to invest in it
760 2013-07-07 13:25:08 <sipa> by the time a viable update notification is ready, we'll need a strict gitian policy, and there's no problem with that
761 2013-07-07 13:25:37 <michagogo> [15:48:35] <BlueMatt> we dont get more than 3 builders now...how are we supposed to require more than we can ever get?
762 2013-07-07 13:25:37 <michagogo> I just checked the last couple releases
763 2013-07-07 13:25:38 <warren> BlueMatt: face00. Old school OpenBSD and now MacOS X hacker. VP of Engineering at a secret startup currently. I'm convinced he has the skill to do the gitian cross-compile toolchain needed for deterministic mac builds from any linux host, but he needs money.
764 2013-07-07 13:25:54 <michagogo> Other than 0.8.1 which was a rush release, we've had 5-6 several times
765 2013-07-07 13:26:24 <BlueMatt> warren: the tor guys already figured it out
766 2013-07-07 13:26:29 <BlueMatt> warren: no need to hire anyone
767 2013-07-07 13:26:35 <warren> oh? hm
768 2013-07-07 13:26:38 <BlueMatt> michagogo: not at the time of release
769 2013-07-07 13:26:49 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
770 2013-07-07 13:26:49 <BlueMatt> michagogo: more sigs generally fill in after release, which is kinda broken
771 2013-07-07 13:26:53 Subo1978 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
772 2013-07-07 13:26:53 <michagogo> Ah.
773 2013-07-07 13:27:15 Subo1978 has joined
774 2013-07-07 13:27:17 <BlueMatt> warren: just have to copy their base stuff and adapt it (they are building the whole TBB in gitian for mac, incl firefox)
775 2013-07-07 13:27:39 <warren> BlueMatt: links please? I'll feed it over.
776 2013-07-07 13:27:52 <BlueMatt> dont have them atm
777 2013-07-07 13:28:14 <BlueMatt> look at https://blog.torproject.org/category/tags/gitian though
778 2013-07-07 13:28:19 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8ab6d0a568013530c2df105fcc7c8dbdc894f74e btw, does anyone understand how this works? I tihnk we have the same problem now.
779 2013-07-07 13:29:02 <BlueMatt> warren: nsis nondeterministically reencodes pixmaps if they dont include all the resolutions it wants iirc
780 2013-07-07 13:29:27 enikanorov has joined
781 2013-07-07 13:30:34 <warren> BlueMatt: any idea what tools are needed and what resolutions?
782 2013-07-07 13:30:41 <BlueMatt> nfc
783 2013-07-07 13:30:43 <michagogo> BTW, what are the .pgp files? Public keys?
784 2013-07-07 13:30:48 <BlueMatt> yea
785 2013-07-07 13:30:49 <BlueMatt> usually
786 2013-07-07 13:30:57 <warren> well, it might be pointless, but I'm submitting a PR
787 2013-07-07 13:32:15 <warren> I am thinking about a long-term solution to this.
788 2013-07-07 13:32:37 <BlueMatt> its only useful if you get people to verify the sigs, which no one does
789 2013-07-07 13:33:26 <lupine> well, it has two uses - encryption and identity
790 2013-07-07 13:33:29 <warren> verify sigs, as in the regular GPG web of trust procedure?
791 2013-07-07 13:33:29 <lupine> just like SSL
792 2013-07-07 13:33:32 t7 has joined
793 2013-07-07 13:33:48 dan991199 has joined
794 2013-07-07 13:33:51 <BlueMatt> dont even care if you use wot, people right now just download binaries and run
795 2013-07-07 13:33:51 <sipa> warren: as in build and compare
796 2013-07-07 13:33:56 <sipa> ah
797 2013-07-07 13:33:58 <sipa> yeah
798 2013-07-07 13:34:02 <BlueMatt> dont even verify pgp sigs compared to list they download over http
799 2013-07-07 13:34:16 <warren> BlueMatt: yeah, we're worried about that, so we
800 2013-07-07 13:35:12 paracyst has joined
801 2013-07-07 13:35:49 <warren> BlueMatt: so we're implementing multiple layers of user protection. 1) SSL to one download server hidden by DDoS provider, with firewall has zero open ports to anything but the DDoS provider. 2) GPG signatures for the clueful people. 3) Microsoft and Apple certs for the distributed binaries. 4) User education on building their own gitian builds to help verify.
802 2013-07-07 13:36:32 <warren> As for the problem of not enough people doing gitian verification, I have six people doing it for my team now, and they can easily do it for bitcoin too. We can verify each other, and train more end-users to help.
803 2013-07-07 13:37:07 <sipa> imton: also, anything that reasons in terms of a 'address balance' is broken design imho
804 2013-07-07 13:38:32 <BlueMatt> until there are more than two "clueful people" in category 2, its essentially pointless
805 2013-07-07 13:39:05 <warren> I'm submitting a PR to add myself to contrib/gitian-downloader. I see other people have a trust weight of 40. Should I request 20?
806 2013-07-07 13:39:46 _1488_ has joined
807 2013-07-07 13:39:48 <BlueMatt> do whatever you want, I have no problem with 40, you've been around for a while
808 2013-07-07 13:39:54 <warren> ok thanks
809 2013-07-07 13:39:55 <BlueMatt> (+ the usual its-not-used-anyway...)
810 2013-07-07 13:40:06 <warren> well, it's meant to be used one day
811 2013-07-07 13:40:20 <warren> hmm, what format of key is that?
812 2013-07-07 13:40:27 <warren> most are binary, one is ascii
813 2013-07-07 13:40:40 _1488_ has quit (Client Quit)
814 2013-07-07 13:41:03 <BlueMatt> anything gpg can import
815 2013-07-07 13:41:04 <sipa> BlueMatt: how did your previous auto-updater verify signatures? require GPG to be installed?
816 2013-07-07 13:41:06 CheckDavid has joined
817 2013-07-07 13:41:17 <BlueMatt> sipa: it came with gpg-for-windows binary
818 2013-07-07 13:41:22 <BlueMatt> (as well as lots of binaries)
819 2013-07-07 13:41:32 <sipa> bleh
820 2013-07-07 13:41:35 <BlueMatt> yep
821 2013-07-07 13:42:06 <nsh> (remember to mentally prepend "NSA-backdoored" to all instances of the word binary)
822 2013-07-07 13:42:47 <BlueMatt> never said it was good
823 2013-07-07 13:43:04 <jouke> What is not used anyway? The signatures from a deterministic build?
824 2013-07-07 13:43:18 <sipa> if only we could use our own signature mechanism...
825 2013-07-07 13:43:29 <BlueMatt> ooo, we should rewrite gpg
826 2013-07-07 13:43:32 <sipa> then it could just be verified internaly
827 2013-07-07 13:43:47 * BlueMatt -> back to work
828 2013-07-07 13:43:59 <sipa> isn't it sunday?
829 2013-07-07 13:44:10 <michagogo> sipa: bitcoin has a signature mechanism. Is that what you were referring to
830 2013-07-07 13:44:10 <michagogo> ?
831 2013-07-07 13:44:14 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
832 2013-07-07 13:44:16 <BlueMatt> yea, took friday and napped all day, but didnt feel like taking a vacation day, so working today
833 2013-07-07 13:44:22 <warren> BlueMatt: that's a big issue for windows users ... the recommended gpg "GPG4Win" is perpetually broken
834 2013-07-07 13:44:36 <warren> BlueMatt: and how do windows users trust the GPG they are downloading is secure...
835 2013-07-07 13:44:38 <jouke> Is there a demand for more people to create a gitian build?
836 2013-07-07 13:44:43 <warren> jouke: yes
837 2013-07-07 13:44:45 <BlueMatt> jouke: not really :(
838 2013-07-07 13:44:48 <warren> jouke: i will publish instructions
839 2013-07-07 13:44:55 <BlueMatt> there should be, but there isnt
840 2013-07-07 13:45:07 <BlueMatt> warren: there are already good instructions....
841 2013-07-07 13:45:08 GordonG3kko has joined
842 2013-07-07 13:45:17 <michagogo> warren: release-process.md
843 2013-07-07 13:45:17 <BlueMatt> (that are essentially bash + details)
844 2013-07-07 13:45:18 <jouke> why do you believe that is the case BlueMatt?
845 2013-07-07 13:45:28 <BlueMatt> jouke: read scrollback?
846 2013-07-07 13:45:34 * BlueMatt -> food, then work
847 2013-07-07 13:45:38 peter has joined
848 2013-07-07 13:45:57 <aspect_> guys, question: will nodes relay transactions if they have invalid inputs?
849 2013-07-07 13:46:02 peter is now known as Guest1915
850 2013-07-07 13:46:19 <sipa> no
851 2013-07-07 13:46:40 EvilPete has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
852 2013-07-07 13:47:03 <sipa> jouke: i've never heard anyone complain about not enough gitian builders, except those that do gitian builds
853 2013-07-07 13:47:25 <sipa> so there isn't really 'demand' for it, just a feeling that it's the right thing to do by those who do :)
854 2013-07-07 13:48:07 * sipa afk
855 2013-07-07 13:48:08 <jouke> Hmmmm.
856 2013-07-07 13:48:20 <aspect_> so if a site processes 0 confirmation transactions, someone would have to connect directly to an ip of the server to issue that...
857 2013-07-07 13:48:49 WKNiGHT has quit (Quit: Connection reset by BEER!)
858 2013-07-07 13:48:53 <warren> aspect_: the node accepts transactions with inputs that it doesn't know about yet and immediately considers the tx an "orphan"
859 2013-07-07 13:50:15 <aspect_> however, if you do listsinceblock I presume this transaction shows up?
860 2013-07-07 13:50:27 <warren> sipa's pgp key is 10-100x the size of everyone else's key. =0
861 2013-07-07 13:50:37 <SomeoneWeird> warren, subkeys?
862 2013-07-07 13:50:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, we need 3 signatures for every release, and it's often hard to get them :p
863 2013-07-07 13:50:51 <warren> prolly
864 2013-07-07 13:51:01 <Luke-Jr> until recently
865 2013-07-07 13:52:13 <jouke> Interesting.
866 2013-07-07 13:52:16 tyn has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
867 2013-07-07 13:53:05 <jouke> Ok. I guess I should find the time to do this.
868 2013-07-07 13:53:40 tyn has joined
869 2013-07-07 13:53:44 <jouke> But at the download-stats, I often wonder why so few people download the signatures.
870 2013-07-07 13:54:10 agnostic98 has joined
871 2013-07-07 13:55:39 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
872 2013-07-07 13:56:58 <Luke-Jr> jouke: meh, those signatures are a single person and not especially useful
873 2013-07-07 13:57:10 jeewee has joined
874 2013-07-07 13:57:12 <Luke-Jr> if someone's checking sigs, they should be cloning the gitian.sigs repo
875 2013-07-07 13:57:55 <jouke> Luke-Jr: you are right.
876 2013-07-07 13:59:20 saulimus has joined
877 2013-07-07 14:01:25 <warren> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2816
878 2013-07-07 14:01:51 <warren> Luke-Jr: if people are checking sigs they should download all sigs from the key servers
879 2013-07-07 14:02:54 <jouke> sigs from key servers?
880 2013-07-07 14:03:45 <Luke-Jr> warren: AEC1884398647C47413C1C3FB1179EB7347DC10D ?
881 2013-07-07 14:04:01 <Luke-Jr> warren: binary sigs aren't on keyservers
882 2013-07-07 14:04:46 _1488_ has joined
883 2013-07-07 14:06:05 _1488_ has quit (Client Quit)
884 2013-07-07 14:06:44 <Luke-Jr> warren: poke
885 2013-07-07 14:07:54 <imton> can someone tell my whe this test net priv key is invalid ? "0812d0b5133bc2f7c92525e4c9204fbc78a07299e77d7e28181fd0b1a9f9e285"
886 2013-07-07 14:08:30 <Luke-Jr> imton: what makes you think it's invalid?
887 2013-07-07 14:08:48 <imton> Luke-Jr: {"code"=>-5, "message"=>"Invalid private key"}
888 2013-07-07 14:08:59 <Luke-Jr> imton: oh, you're trying to use the wrong format
889 2013-07-07 14:09:10 <Luke-Jr> your string there looks like it's hex data
890 2013-07-07 14:09:15 <imton> yes...
891 2013-07-07 14:09:17 <Luke-Jr> importprivkey takes base58
892 2013-07-07 14:09:20 <imton> :(
893 2013-07-07 14:09:29 <imton> Luke-Jr: thanks!
894 2013-07-07 14:09:42 <imton> would be awesome if that is in the docs⦠:p
895 2013-07-07 14:10:05 <Luke-Jr> patches welcome?
896 2013-07-07 14:11:01 <imton> :) ok!
897 2013-07-07 14:12:23 <warren> Luke-Jr: yes they are
898 2013-07-07 14:12:30 <warren> Luke-Jr: oh wait
899 2013-07-07 14:12:44 <warren> Luke-Jr: what is that hex string supposed to be?
900 2013-07-07 14:13:09 <warren> Luke-Jr: sorry, two different issues I mixed up
901 2013-07-07 14:13:50 <Luke-Jr> warren: please tell me here your PGP key fingerprint :P
902 2013-07-07 14:14:20 <warren> Luke-Jr: https://togami.com/~warren/warren-gpg-transition-2013.txt.asc
903 2013-07-07 14:14:41 <Luke-Jr> warren: please say the fingerprint here.
904 2013-07-07 14:14:49 <warren> how does that help?
905 2013-07-07 14:14:58 dan991199 has left ()
906 2013-07-07 14:15:01 <warren> [warren@newcaprica gitian-downloader]$ gpg --fingerprint AEC1884398647C47413C1C3FB1179EB7347DC10D
907 2013-07-07 14:15:01 <warren> pub 8192R/347DC10D 2013-06-29
908 2013-07-07 14:15:01 <warren> Key fingerprint = AEC1 8843 9864 7C47 413C 1C3F B117 9EB7 347D C10D
909 2013-07-07 14:15:01 <warren> uid Warren Togami (2013) <wtogami@gmail.com>
910 2013-07-07 14:15:01 <warren> sub 8192R/668709D4 2013-06-29
911 2013-07-07 14:15:45 <warren> Luke-Jr: I made this new key recently because a few weeks ago I met this 18 year old girl. She read my business card and immediately scolded me for my "weak" 1024bit DSA key.
912 2013-07-07 14:15:48 <Luke-Jr> warren: my only current link to you is via IRC, so best I can do is verify your NickServ account is properly authenticated and such
913 2013-07-07 14:17:02 <warren> Luke-Jr: btw, are bfgminer releases signed?
914 2013-07-07 14:17:13 <warren> it worries me that cgminer binaies aren't signed
915 2013-07-07 14:17:21 <Luke-Jr> warren: just by me
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917 2013-07-07 14:17:27 <Luke-Jr> not built deterministically
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919 2013-07-07 14:17:36 <warren> signed at all is better than nothing
920 2013-07-07 14:19:43 <warren> https://litecoin.org/downloads/.warren/warren-gpg-transition-2013.txt.asc <--- yet another place to put it
921 2013-07-07 14:20:35 <Luke-Jr> frankly, that signed message is useless to me :p
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924 2013-07-07 14:25:42 <imton> could someone explain me why I get this error when signing a tx {"code"=>-22, "message"=>"Previous output scriptPubKey mismatch:\nOP_DUP OP_HASH160 651ad09e151a3376e7b63f663e342c426530205e OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG\nvs:\nOP_DUP OP_HASH160 2518bcb5a56f73ab6c7878f4795d720f84c0bcfc OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"}
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928 2013-07-07 14:33:10 <warren> BlueMatt: it seems that an ideal gitian verification procedre would involve 1) not telling people where to get the inputs, because those imports aren't signed themselves, you add to risk by telling everyone to download a particular unverifiable source tarball at a particular URL.
929 2013-07-07 14:33:40 <warren> 2) and users need to submit hashes without the ability to see hashes submitted by other people
930 2013-07-07 14:34:23 <BlueMatt> warren: in this case ideal is the enemy of good
931 2013-07-07 14:34:25 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
932 2013-07-07 14:34:26 <BlueMatt> right now we have nothing
933 2013-07-07 14:34:35 <BlueMatt> so making something good that can later be tweaked is the way forward
934 2013-07-07 14:35:20 <warren> BlueMatt: good and decentralized doesn't seem to be compatible here...
935 2013-07-07 14:35:37 <BlueMatt> semi-decentralized is better than nothing
936 2013-07-07 14:36:12 <warren> "better than nothing" is not good enough for end-users to just trust
937 2013-07-07 14:36:15 setkeh is now known as pastry
938 2013-07-07 14:36:25 <warren> but I see your point
939 2013-07-07 14:36:32 <BlueMatt> making an ideal system in this case is essentially impossible
940 2013-07-07 14:36:36 <warren> I want to work on this problem.
941 2013-07-07 14:36:39 <BlueMatt> so make a good one, that is easy for users to use
942 2013-07-07 14:37:02 <warren> the #4 educatoin aspect is easy
943 2013-07-07 14:37:11 <BlueMatt> hah
944 2013-07-07 14:37:17 <BlueMatt> no
945 2013-07-07 14:37:47 <BlueMatt> unless you force every user to rebuild the bins instead of just downloading them
946 2013-07-07 14:37:48 <warren> there are thousands of software engineers out there that use Bitcoin that are comptetent enough to understand how to do this and implications
947 2013-07-07 14:37:51 pastry is now known as setkeh
948 2013-07-07 14:37:55 <BlueMatt> no one is gonna bother rebuilding
949 2013-07-07 14:38:02 <BlueMatt> hell, even I dont bother checking sigs more often than not
950 2013-07-07 14:38:55 <warren> I will think more about this. I agree with the end-goal.
951 2013-07-07 14:52:18 fluxbox has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
952 2013-07-07 14:57:32 <Eliel> for an ideal solution, either Bitcoin needs to include all necessary code by itself or every dependent library needs to have a similar procedure with which to verify it's integrity.
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954 2013-07-07 14:58:21 <michagogo> Am I correct in assuming people don't know me well enough to be added to the gitian list?
955 2013-07-07 14:59:00 <BlueMatt> the second can be accomplished with gitian builds of dependencies
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965 2013-07-07 15:27:52 <imton> sipa: you were right, searchrawtransactions is indexing txs made from that addrs too, so i can implement full balances :) love it.
966 2013-07-07 15:28:29 <imton> sipa: do you have any benchmark how fast is searchrawtransactions over the bitcoin network? (i am on testnet)
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991 2013-07-07 16:29:23 clav8 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
992 2013-07-07 16:35:28 darsie has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
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997 2013-07-07 16:44:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251615.0 < that doesn't sound good.
998 2013-07-07 16:46:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: Im confused as to what he is testing?
999 2013-07-07 16:46:08 <michagogo> Is there a way for me to move https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2798 onto another branch?
1000 2013-07-07 16:46:16 <BlueMatt> "takes longer for the network" how is he testing a 300-block reorg on the network?
1001 2013-07-07 16:46:32 <michagogo> (I can't update master from upstream because that PR is outstanding)
1002 2013-07-07 16:46:37 <michagogo> testnet-in-a-box?
1003 2013-07-07 16:46:38 <BlueMatt> michagogo: you'd have to open a new pullreq
1004 2013-07-07 16:48:01 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I had the impression that person is working on an alternative implementation,â my memory may be failing me there. So I was guessing that he's actually testing acceptance.
1005 2013-07-07 16:48:12 <gmaxwell> (e.g. on a node in isolation)
1006 2013-07-07 16:48:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: not sure how one node in isolation will take even 1-2 blocks to accept a reorg
1007 2013-07-07 16:48:53 <BlueMatt> if you're reorging cs_main should lock so you cant receive new blocks during that time
1008 2013-07-07 16:49:00 <BlueMatt> (nor generate on the old blocks, no?)
1009 2013-07-07 16:50:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I was assuming the 1-2 was just that the reorg has to get _ahead_ not tie.
1010 2013-07-07 16:50:20 <gmaxwell> But it's a good question.
1011 2013-07-07 16:50:21 <BlueMatt> hmm
1012 2013-07-07 16:50:31 <BlueMatt> that post just seems very unclear as to what the issue is
1013 2013-07-07 16:50:37 <BlueMatt> (if any)
1014 2013-07-07 16:51:05 <BlueMatt> would be interesting to turn current block tester into a full-scale tester that tests things like making the target bitcoind generate blocks and while the thing is running and see what it does
1015 2013-07-07 16:51:14 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: While I'm here, need me to explain that rand patch? (I appreciate the reviewâ I wasn't trying to blow you off with my response)
1016 2013-07-07 16:51:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, I got it after I actually read it more closely
1017 2013-07-07 16:54:22 clav8 has joined
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1019 2013-07-07 16:55:32 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Done (I hope I did it right)
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1021 2013-07-07 16:59:10 <BlueMatt> michagogo: lgtm
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1031 2013-07-07 17:19:24 <diki> anyone know how the win odds are calculated for dice games?
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1033 2013-07-07 17:20:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: an actual ack on that patch would be nice if you're happy with it now. :)
1034 2013-07-07 17:21:05 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you ask for too much
1035 2013-07-07 17:21:09 <sipa> imton: it's linear in the search results
1036 2013-07-07 17:21:35 <sipa> imton: but please, i beg you to reconsider if you're buildong something that uses "balance of an address"
1037 2013-07-07 17:21:55 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: done, but please do add "(fixes #2714)" to the commitmsg title
1038 2013-07-07 17:23:26 <sipa> diki: math
1039 2013-07-07 17:24:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: sure, done.
1040 2013-07-07 17:25:12 <diki> sipa:what is the exact formula
1041 2013-07-07 17:25:39 <BlueMatt> diki: target possibilities divided by total possibilities
1042 2013-07-07 17:27:58 <diki> By possibilities you mean 2^32? Since most dice games fetch the first four bytes of the hash
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1044 2013-07-07 17:29:17 <BlueMatt> sure
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1049 2013-07-07 17:35:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: am I nitpicking the ping patch too much? Feel free to ignore me if I am.
1050 2013-07-07 17:36:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: it's a reasonable comment - i have no idea how hard it is to make a node so busy it doesn't respond dfor one minute
1051 2013-07-07 17:36:44 <sipa> i guess that during IBD it may actually be easy
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1053 2013-07-07 17:38:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, thats a random handwave. TCP isn't actually guarenteed to make progress on a congested link though. But I'm not actually sure that if someone congests you enough to cause 1 minute delays that even 10 minutes would be much harder to achieve.
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1110 2013-07-07 19:00:16 <jemadux> is there a greek l10n for bitcoin-qt ?
1111 2013-07-07 19:00:42 <jemadux> cuz in my system i have all on english ... that's the question
1112 2013-07-07 19:01:23 <BlueMatt> jemadux: yes, there does appear to be one
1113 2013-07-07 19:01:23 <BlueMatt> https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/bitcoin/
1114 2013-07-07 19:05:21 <diki> Have any of you guys looked at the prime proof-of-work paper?
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1116 2013-07-07 19:06:38 <pigeons> Sunnky King released a paper on that?
1117 2013-07-07 19:07:30 <pigeons> with centralized checkpoint distribution ;) ?
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1121 2013-07-07 19:14:43 <diki> well, still a new non-hashcash proof-of-work
1122 2013-07-07 19:15:22 <pigeons> yeah i'm interested
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