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   7 2013-07-08 00:11:42 <gmaxwell> Post by Hal: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175156.msg2677193#msg2677193
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  92 2013-07-08 03:00:35 <crypt0queen> anyone interested in going in on the group buy for a Bitcoin neon sign? pics --> [ http://imgur.com/a/Z7VWc ] , 4  BTC including shipping to the USA. need 7 more people. :D
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  94 2013-07-08 03:17:06 <freewil> crypt0queen, how much
  95 2013-07-08 03:17:12 <freewil> oh 4 btc
  96 2013-07-08 03:17:20 <crypt0queen> yeah includes shipping to the US
  97 2013-07-08 03:17:31 <crypt0queen> will need to adjust if international to your country
  98 2013-07-08 03:20:33 <crypt0queen> oh, wait, sorry freewil , 3.5 btc @ 77 currently
  99 2013-07-08 03:20:37 <crypt0queen> my mistake
 100 2013-07-08 03:21:15 <crypt0queen> includes shipping
 101 2013-07-08 03:21:25 <crypt0queen> (usa)
 102 2013-07-08 03:21:29 <freewil> alright
 103 2013-07-08 03:21:39 <freewil> im not interested but ill ask around
 104 2013-07-08 03:21:43 <crypt0queen> cheers
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 106 2013-07-08 03:25:37 <Luke-Jr> crypt0queen: off-topic here, I suggest #bitcoin-otc
 107 2013-07-08 03:25:48 <Luke-Jr> neat signs though
 108 2013-07-08 03:25:50 <crypt0queen> yeah I asked there already, =)
 109 2013-07-08 03:25:52 <crypt0queen> thanks luke
 110 2013-07-08 03:26:01 <crypt0queen> will ask again tomorrow so I dont spam the channel there
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 224 2013-07-08 08:24:17 <warren> Luke-Jr: I found it curious that you conidered nickserv auth to be a good way to verify my identity.  that is pretty darn weak compared to other means.
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 259 2013-07-08 09:55:31 TD[gone] is now known as TD
 260 2013-07-08 09:55:46 <TD> sipa: good morning. how fast can libsecp256k1 do a point multiplication?
 261 2013-07-08 09:55:52 <TD> (private->public)
 262 2013-07-08 09:57:12 <phantomcircuit> TD, iirc it's 1000x faster which would mean 1usec
 263 2013-07-08 09:57:15 <phantomcircuit> but that seems fast
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 271 2013-07-08 10:20:37 <gjs278> I found a block on btc guild and I've only genned 10btc with them so far :(
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 274 2013-07-08 10:23:34 <michagogo> gjs278: Well, that's the trade-off of mining with a pool
 275 2013-07-08 10:23:58 <gjs278> time to go 50 straight and not find anything
 276 2013-07-08 10:24:08 <michagogo> gjs278: If you're not lucky, you still get BTC
 277 2013-07-08 10:24:25 <michagogo> But if you do get lucky, you don't actuallt get lucky
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 322 2013-07-08 12:23:58 <sipa> TD: 30us or so
 323 2013-07-08 12:25:01 <sipa> TD: last i benchmarked, that was "only" 3 times faster than openssl
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 325 2013-07-08 12:25:54 <Diablo-D3> "only" ;)
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 327 2013-07-08 12:27:05 <sipa> TD: though that's only for multiplication with the generator (whose multiples are precomputed heavily), not for generic point multiplications
 328 2013-07-08 12:33:12 <TD> ok
 329 2013-07-08 12:33:14 <TD> that's fine
 330 2013-07-08 12:33:29 <TD> so about 33k priv->pubs per second
 331 2013-07-08 12:34:36 <sipa> though the current algorithm isn't entirely constant-time, so it may slow down a bit in the future if i get to that
 332 2013-07-08 12:35:03 <sipa> (resistence to timing attacks)
 333 2013-07-08 12:35:17 <sipa> also, i should probably talk in terms on cpu cycles instead of time
 334 2013-07-08 12:35:42 <sipa> close to 100k, i guess
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 338 2013-07-08 12:43:58 <TD> 100k on what?
 339 2013-07-08 12:44:09 <TD> 1,000,000 / 30 is not 100k :-)
 340 2013-07-08 12:44:14 <TD> you mean on a quad core system?
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 342 2013-07-08 12:45:36 <sipa> 100k CPU cycles at 3.17GHz is close to 30us
 343 2013-07-08 12:45:46 <sipa> no, per core
 344 2013-07-08 12:46:00 <TD> oh, sorry
 345 2013-07-08 12:46:14 <TD> somehow i added an "r" into "close" so i thought you mean the 33k was off
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 378 2013-07-08 14:07:11 <BlueMatt> hmm... bitcoin-qt -regtest doesnt load unless I specify the datadir as .bitcoin/regtest manually
 379 2013-07-08 14:08:10 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: wow, surprised he's still posting
 380 2013-07-08 14:08:20 <petertodd> BlueMatt: pull-tester still broken? I wanted to see what it thought of my cpfp mempool
 381 2013-07-08 14:08:43 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ahh, yes, it is, sorry
 382 2013-07-08 14:08:45 <BlueMatt> thanks for reminding me
 383 2013-07-08 14:09:30 <petertodd> BlueMatt: np, of course, I'll admit I am being a bit lazy in not setting up a local copy myself... that pull-req is nowhere near actually being merged
 384 2013-07-08 14:09:40 * petertodd knows 'nuthin about java
 385 2013-07-08 14:09:49 <BlueMatt> meh, Im more lazy
 386 2013-07-08 14:10:00 * BlueMatt makes pull-tester build things when he doesnt feel like doing it locally
 387 2013-07-08 14:10:03 <BlueMatt> (mostly win32 stuff)
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 391 2013-07-08 14:10:57 <pigeons> BlueMatt: why suprised, did he get the usual level of discourse from that forum previously?
 392 2013-07-08 14:11:33 <BlueMatt> pigeons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(cypherpunk)
 393 2013-07-08 14:11:45 <pigeons> oh yes i know who he is
 394 2013-07-08 14:12:07 dermoth_ has joined
 395 2013-07-08 14:12:26 <pigeons> i was wondering why you were suprised, like maybe he was treated like a typical forum member previously or something
 396 2013-07-08 14:12:31 <TD> BlueMatt: that's odd. i recall that working when i first wrote the code. but i only normally use it with bitcoind -regtest
 397 2013-07-08 14:12:31 khalahan has joined
 398 2013-07-08 14:12:50 <pigeons> he seems genuinely interested in bitcoin, kind of a child of his idea
 399 2013-07-08 14:12:54 <TD> pigeons: he is seriously ill
 400 2013-07-08 14:13:02 <TD> pigeons: to the extent that he must type using eye movements
 401 2013-07-08 14:13:08 <pigeons> wow, amazing
 402 2013-07-08 14:13:18 <TD> that's why we're surprised he's still posting. sadly, his life expectancy is very short
 403 2013-07-08 14:13:29 <pigeons> ok thanks
 404 2013-07-08 14:13:35 <BlueMatt> pigeons: he has ALS
 405 2013-07-08 14:14:26 hsmiths has joined
 406 2013-07-08 14:14:51 <BlueMatt> also, on master: when I setgenerate true, I get one block and no more until I setgenerate false and reset it....
 407 2013-07-08 14:14:59 <BlueMatt> (on regtest mode, so should work....)
 408 2013-07-08 14:15:16 dermoth has quit (home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-141-193.mtl.aei.ca|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 409 2013-07-08 14:15:24 <TD> maybe something broke recently. i was making blocks by repeatedly running setgenerate true this morning, but it's been a couple of weeks since i refreshed my local build
 410 2013-07-08 14:16:28 <kinlo> seems there are quite some people mining on testnet
 411 2013-07-08 14:17:09 <BlueMatt> TD: setgenerate true should make inf blocks, not just one
 412 2013-07-08 14:17:24 <BlueMatt> for now setgenerate true is giving me exactly one block per call...
 413 2013-07-08 14:17:28 <TD> yes, that's by design
 414 2013-07-08 14:17:32 <TD> it was noted in the original pull req
 415 2013-07-08 14:17:44 <TD> you can just do "setgenerate true" repeatedly. no need to do "setgenerate false"
 416 2013-07-08 14:18:04 <BlueMatt> wait what?
 417 2013-07-08 14:18:09 <BlueMatt> oh, this is new for regtest stuff?
 418 2013-07-08 14:18:10 <TD> that way you get exactly one block on demand when you want one
 419 2013-07-08 14:18:12 <TD> yeah
 420 2013-07-08 14:18:17 <BlueMatt> oh, ok
 421 2013-07-08 14:18:20 <TD> does the pull tester rely on "infinite blocks"?
 422 2013-07-08 14:18:28 jgarzik has joined
 423 2013-07-08 14:18:34 <jgarzik> mornin'
 424 2013-07-08 14:18:50 <TD> you can do something like "while true; do ./bitcoind -regtest setgenerate true; usleep $[ 300*1000]; done" on my machine to get lotsablocks
 425 2013-07-08 14:19:23 <BlueMatt> TD: pull-tester doesnt care
 426 2013-07-08 14:19:34 <BlueMatt> all pull-tester blocks are made in bitcoinj
 427 2013-07-08 14:19:52 <TD> ok. i figured the one-block-per-call thing made it easier to do app development. at least i found it helpful so far.
 428 2013-07-08 14:20:11 <BlueMatt> just surprised me :p
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 480 2013-07-08 15:33:02 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell, let's volunteer Gavin to do some leveldb + suspend/resume tests on OSX
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 483 2013-07-08 15:36:31 <kinlo> jgarzik: what needs to be done exactly?
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 485 2013-07-08 15:37:14 <jgarzik> kinlo, Following up on reports such as https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=248435.0
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 488 2013-07-08 15:37:37 <jgarzik> kinlo, sounds like some people might be getting database corruption if the bitcoin client is actively running, when a mac is suspended
 489 2013-07-08 15:38:06 <jgarzik> which given leveldb design w/ atomic transactions, I _thought_ was impossible
 490 2013-07-08 15:38:27 <kinlo> hmmmz, dangerous
 491 2013-07-08 15:38:36 <kinlo> I'll open and close my laptop several times tonight
 492 2013-07-08 15:38:41 <kinlo> see if it is reproduceable
 493 2013-07-08 15:38:53 <TD> it's not "when the mac is suspended"
 494 2013-07-08 15:39:02 <TD> i've done lid close/open events thousands of times with a running bitcoind
 495 2013-07-08 15:39:06 <TD> (bitcoin-qt rather)
 496 2013-07-08 15:39:16 <TD> the problem is that apple hardware/software contains bug(s) that can break the resume process
 497 2013-07-08 15:39:30 <TD> when this happens you have to do a hard reset from a suspended state, and it's that which appears to break things
 498 2013-07-08 15:39:37 <kinlo> ic
 499 2013-07-08 15:39:52 <TD> i've seen it myself and not put much time into investigating because obviously if your machine hangs and requires a hard reset whilst in the middle of a resume operation, who knows what might have happened
 500 2013-07-08 15:40:01 <TD> fortunately it's rare
 501 2013-07-08 15:40:05 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 502 2013-07-08 15:40:17 <jgarzik> TD, we have a continual stream of corruption reports now :(
 503 2013-07-08 15:40:21 saulimus has joined
 504 2013-07-08 15:40:24 <jgarzik> TD, gotta figure it out one way or another
 505 2013-07-08 15:40:26 <walch> TD: are you aware that there's two different forms of sleep in OSX?
 506 2013-07-08 15:40:30 <kinlo> TD: also with osx?
 507 2013-07-08 15:40:36 <TD> it'd be interesting to more systematically collect stats from these reports
 508 2013-07-08 15:40:40 <TD> walch: yes
 509 2013-07-08 15:40:49 <TD> walch: we don't know which one seems to cause the issues.
 510 2013-07-08 15:40:52 <kinlo> all running ML?
 511 2013-07-08 15:41:02 <kinlo> my test mac is still running SL
 512 2013-07-08 15:41:20 <TD> that seems to be a theme in the reports, but nobody has collected reports systematically so we don't really know. i mean obviously there can be other causes like bad hardware/memory/etc
 513 2013-07-08 15:41:28 <TD> we can never drive corruptions to zero
 514 2013-07-08 15:41:37 <jgarzik> TD: "Don't use Bitcoin-Qt" isn't satisfactory :)
 515 2013-07-08 15:42:02 <gmaxwell> TD: the design of level db (and any good database) _should_ resist corruption from in-flight data being trashed with an unclean shutdown. And on Linux it seems it does. I've cut power to my system for test a bunch of times and never been able to trigger it.
 516 2013-07-08 15:42:05 <TD> but possibly inevitable. it doesn't make sense to use bitcoin-qt on a laptop that's constantly being slept/resumed anyway. you have to wait for ages for it to sync if it falls behind
 517 2013-07-08 15:42:10 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 518 2013-07-08 15:42:31 <TD> gmaxwell: yes and obviously the linux kernel/fs is atomic in the cases where you've been testing
 519 2013-07-08 15:42:46 <walch> TD: right, just checking. I've seen some confused people when their Mac comes out of the deeper sleep.
 520 2013-07-08 15:42:59 <TD> the question then is, do resume failures on OS X cause underlying fs assumes like atomicity to be violated/
 521 2013-07-08 15:43:11 <TD> walch: these are definitely hard failures, at least the ones i've seen
 522 2013-07-08 15:43:32 <TD> HFS+ is journalled. but then maybe during resume something goes wrong with the journalling support, etc. it's hard to know
 523 2013-07-08 15:43:54 <walch> TD: do you mean a hard failure of the app, or of the OSX suspend?
 524 2013-07-08 15:44:08 <gmaxwell> TD: It's not like ext4 is data journaled by default in any case.
 525 2013-07-08 15:44:22 <TD> walch: OS X suspend (resume)
 526 2013-07-08 15:44:23 <jgarzik> indeed
 527 2013-07-08 15:44:41 <jgarzik> TD, hyperbole alert "wait for ages for it to sync"
 528 2013-07-08 15:44:45 <jgarzik> TD, it's quite fast here
 529 2013-07-08 15:44:52 <gmaxwell> (and, the reference client on a laptop is fine.. it's not like it takes more than a couple minutes to catch up a week)
 530 2013-07-08 15:44:56 <TD> jgarzik: yeah? how fast do you sync a weeks worth of chain?
 531 2013-07-08 15:44:57 <jgarzik> indeed
 532 2013-07-08 15:45:16 <gmaxwell> (over tor, for that matter)
 533 2013-07-08 15:45:19 <jgarzik> TD, several minutes
 534 2013-07-08 15:45:36 <jgarzik> TD, slower than SPV, certainly but not "wait for ages"
 535 2013-07-08 15:45:42 <petertodd> If playing around with leveldb on OSX doesn't turn up anything, might be worthwhile making a test program that emulates what leveldb is doing, but in a way that allows for easy analysis of what actually got written to the harddrive. Lots of hardware out there lies about write barriers among other things...
 536 2013-07-08 15:45:44 <jgarzik> I just did such a week-old sync
 537 2013-07-08 15:45:47 <jgarzik> this morning
 538 2013-07-08 15:45:54 <TD> well, it's all relative. remember i work in an environment where we can measure the revenue impact of 100msec of additional delay ;)
 539 2013-07-08 15:46:07 <walch> TD: you seem to be able to do some fairly stupid things with the suspend and still come out smiling. I used to be able to swap batteries while in the lighter sleep, though logically that shouldn't work.
 540 2013-07-08 15:46:10 <TD> so "just wait 5 mins before you receive your money" is not really so great ...
 541 2013-07-08 15:46:13 <petertodd> jgarzik: Not to mention often you have a local node you can sync too even if you would otherwise be bandwidth limited.
 542 2013-07-08 15:46:14 <gmaxwell> TD: well then, presumably you're not running those applications on laptops. :P
 543 2013-07-08 15:46:48 <TD> walch: i don't know what causes this. i've only seen it a handful of times. but last time it happened, sure enough, leveldb came back corrupted. i think i actually got a kernel panic, but it was months ago and can't remember exactly what hapepned
 544 2013-07-08 15:46:58 <TD> and that's what davout complained of (failed resume requiring hard reset)
 545 2013-07-08 15:47:20 <gmaxwell> It would be interesting to get someone on OSX running a kill -9 loop on bitcoind to see if the corruption can be triggered without an unclean shutdown of the OS.
 546 2013-07-08 15:47:45 <gmaxwell> (I beleive thats been reported too— but user reports are somewhat unreliable)
 547 2013-07-08 15:48:08 <petertodd> BlueMatt: where in the pull-tester does it say what version of the libraries it's using? seems I'm using boost features from a newer library
 548 2013-07-08 15:48:32 Bollywood_ has joined
 549 2013-07-08 15:49:17 <BlueMatt> petertodd: should be using the same versions as gitian
 550 2013-07-08 15:49:18 <walch> TD: anecdotally, I've been using Mac laptops for 7 years or so, and I've only once seen a failure coming out of resume. who knows how people are managing to hit issues on a regular basis.
 551 2013-07-08 15:49:36 <gmaxwell> walch: perhaps failing hardware.
 552 2013-07-08 15:49:40 <BlueMatt> petertodd: or...it uses the same versions as gitian did like a few months ago
 553 2013-07-08 15:49:53 <gmaxwell> Its not just mac laptops reporting this, we've had similar (but fewer?) reports from windows desktops.
 554 2013-07-08 15:49:57 <TD> walch: yeah could be a lot of things. weird combinations of  hardware/software/bugs/ambient conditions, etc
 555 2013-07-08 15:50:32 Bollywood has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 556 2013-07-08 15:50:34 <gmaxwell> But we've only had approximately one report from linux, which looks like it might be BRTFS related.
 557 2013-07-08 15:51:04 RazielZ has joined
 558 2013-07-08 15:51:12 <TD> it may be that linux machines simply don't get unclean shutdowns all that often, given the relative prevalence of osx/win laptops over linux laptops
 559 2013-07-08 15:51:20 <petertodd> BlueMatt: heh, I'll take that as a hint to get gitian...
 560 2013-07-08 15:51:38 <jgarzik> The Linux kernel is engineeringly superior, and resists such crapola
 561 2013-07-08 15:51:40 <jgarzik> ;p
 562 2013-07-08 15:51:50 <michagogo> petertodd: Then you can also sign new releases :-D
 563 2013-07-08 15:51:50 <gmaxwell> TD: well I've sat around testing it in linux. If it happens on my computer it must be pretty rare.
 564 2013-07-08 15:52:18 <petertodd> michagogo: Did warren shame you into getting gitian? :P
 565 2013-07-08 15:52:31 <michagogo> petertodd: Hmm? No, not at all.
 566 2013-07-08 15:52:40 <petertodd> michagogo: he did that to me...
 567 2013-07-08 15:52:43 <gmaxwell> including things like unplugging the disk while its recieving a block.
 568 2013-07-08 15:52:57 <michagogo> petertodd: I set it up a while back in order to build and sign new releases
 569 2013-07-08 15:53:04 <TD> ok, it could be that linux is better engineered :)
 570 2013-07-08 15:53:12 <michagogo> IIRC it was some time in the 0.8.2 release candidates
 571 2013-07-08 15:54:10 <TD> from what i recall of the code, leveldb makes some fairly simple assumptions - it assumes rename() is atomic and that write() is atomic/won't be re-ordered. but it checksums everything so if the contents of a write gets scrambled that's detected and the bogus data can either be skipped, or reported.
 572 2013-07-08 15:54:35 <jgarzik> hrm, Unix has never guaranteed writes will not be reordered
 573 2013-07-08 15:54:39 <jgarzik> absent fsync/fdatasync
 574 2013-07-08 15:54:43 roconnor has joined
 575 2013-07-08 15:54:56 <BlueMatt> petertodd: no, its mostly that Im too lazy to look it up
 576 2013-07-08 15:55:20 <jgarzik> writes can be reordered in the disk buffer, even if not OS elevator
 577 2013-07-08 15:56:37 <jgarzik> some enterprises turn off disk buffering for that reason?  I really hope leveldb does not make such assumptions
 578 2013-07-08 15:56:45 <jgarzik> atomic rename should be safe and correct
 579 2013-07-08 15:57:39 <TD> i'm trying to figure out what assumptions it does make
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 581 2013-07-08 15:58:00 <TD> basically it never reads data until close()ing a file, except for log files, and i think it uses mmapped files there with memcpy to the end.
 582 2013-07-08 15:58:11 <TD> the log file code has quite some robustness against mangled/truncated entries
 583 2013-07-08 15:59:01 <jgarzik> close is not guaranteed to flush to disk either ;p
 584 2013-07-08 15:59:17 <jgarzik> certainly it clears out all the maps [assuming no other shared maps elsewhere]
 585 2013-07-08 15:59:22 <TD> and it does fdatasync on things
 586 2013-07-08 15:59:57 <jgarzik> which is translated into fsync on OSX, IIRC  (not that that is terribly relevant to current problems)
 587 2013-07-08 16:00:27 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 588 2013-07-08 16:00:30 <jgarzik> certainly does call msync(2)
 589 2013-07-08 16:00:57 <TD> yeah
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 591 2013-07-08 16:01:47 <jgarzik> bitcoin's syncing is complex
 592 2013-07-08 16:02:00 <jgarzik> HUM
 593 2013-07-08 16:02:11 <jgarzik> IIRC we turn off syncing for block download
 594 2013-07-08 16:02:18 <jgarzik> maybe that is the window
 595 2013-07-08 16:02:23 <jgarzik> grep for WriteBatch
 596 2013-07-08 16:03:33 <jgarzik>     bool fIsInitialDownload = IsInitialBlockDownload();
 597 2013-07-08 16:03:33 <jgarzik>     if (!fIsInitialDownload || pcoinsTip->GetCacheSize() > nCoinCacheSize) {
 598 2013-07-08 16:03:33 <jgarzik>     bool fIsInitialDownload = IsInitialBlockDownload();
 599 2013-07-08 16:03:33 <jgarzik>     if (!fIsInitialDownload || pcoinsTip->GetCacheSize() > nCoinCacheSize) {
 600 2013-07-08 16:03:46 <jgarzik> ...
 601 2013-07-08 16:03:48 <jgarzik>         FlushBlockFile();
 602 2013-07-08 16:03:48 <jgarzik>         pblocktree->Sync();
 603 2013-07-08 16:03:48 <jgarzik>         if (!pcoinsTip->Flush())
 604 2013-07-08 16:03:48 <jgarzik>             return state.Abort(_("Failed to write to coin database"));
 605 2013-07-08 16:04:01 <jgarzik> certainly possible we get sync'ing wrong
 606 2013-07-08 16:04:05 <jgarzik> since we are handling it manually
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 611 2013-07-08 16:11:49 <BlueMatt> holy shit, jgarzik spam
 612 2013-07-08 16:12:51 <jgarzik> a recent sync is !IBD, but it could certainly fit in the cache window
 613 2013-07-08 16:13:20 <TD> but then it'd affect linux just as heavily
 614 2013-07-08 16:13:33 <TD> but i suppose the bias can again be due to linux machines having fewer sudden shutdowns
 615 2013-07-08 16:13:36 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: fIsInitialDownload isn't that hard to trigger.
 616 2013-07-08 16:14:25 <BlueMatt> petertodd: where did you add the pruneable tests?
 617 2013-07-08 16:14:37 <gmaxwell> We should probably rename it to something like IsCatchingUpChain()
 618 2013-07-08 16:15:10 <BlueMatt> petertodd: and are they data-driven or static?
 619 2013-07-08 16:17:22 <TheLordOfTime> BlueMatt:  you're in charge of the bitcoin PPA for Ubuntu right?
 620 2013-07-08 16:17:34 <BlueMatt> yes
 621 2013-07-08 16:17:39 <TheLordOfTime> BlueMatt:  do you know who manages the debian package?
 622 2013-07-08 16:17:41 <TheLordOfTime> (in Debian)
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 624 2013-07-08 16:17:56 <BlueMatt> yes, though Id have to look it up
 625 2013-07-08 16:18:00 <BlueMatt> jonas something, iirc
 626 2013-07-08 16:18:16 <BlueMatt> though IIRC there are a few of them now
 627 2013-07-08 16:22:14 <petertodd> BlueMatt: They are in the script testing stuff, just really basic data driven ones.
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 630 2013-07-08 16:23:11 * BlueMatt doesnt see them
 631 2013-07-08 16:24:08 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ^
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 637 2013-07-08 16:32:19 <TD> primecoin is interesting
 638 2013-07-08 16:32:28 <TD> perhaps the first sha256 alternative that would make sense
 639 2013-07-08 16:32:49 <BlueMatt> yep
 640 2013-07-08 16:32:51 <BlueMatt> cool idea
 641 2013-07-08 16:33:30 <TD> although do primes that are not mersenne have much scientific utility?
 642 2013-07-08 16:33:48 <BlueMatt> I kinda doubt it
 643 2013-07-08 16:33:56 <BlueMatt> do mersenne's even these days?
 644 2013-07-08 16:34:04 <TD> well they're used in ecdsa, right :-)
 645 2013-07-08 16:34:12 <TD> modulo a mersenne prime is efficient
 646 2013-07-08 16:34:24 <TD> whether we need any larger than the ones we have, that i could not say
 647 2013-07-08 16:34:34 * BlueMatt wouldnt know
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 651 2013-07-08 16:35:51 <TD> basically calculating a % b requires a slow integer division normally. but if b is a mersenne prime then in some cases you can do it with some bit masking/shifting. which is much faster
 652 2013-07-08 16:36:09 <Diablo-D3> TD: so THATS what mersenne primes are for
 653 2013-07-08 16:36:11 <BlueMatt> yes, but do we need more giant mersennes than the ones we have?
 654 2013-07-08 16:36:20 Benjojo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 655 2013-07-08 16:36:29 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: isnt there a project out there looking for mersennes?
 656 2013-07-08 16:36:30 jordandotdev has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 657 2013-07-08 16:36:31 licnep has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 658 2013-07-08 16:36:35 <BlueMatt> yea
 659 2013-07-08 16:36:43 <BlueMatt> every like 5 years they find some massive number
 660 2013-07-08 16:36:44 <TD> GIMPS
 661 2013-07-08 16:36:47 <BlueMatt> but...not sure what its really for
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 665 2013-07-08 16:37:06 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if gcc knows how to optimize for mersennes =P
 666 2013-07-08 16:37:46 <TD> well
 667 2013-07-08 16:38:02 <TD> ecdsa also uses prime numbers because otherwise there's a fancy attack on it
 668 2013-07-08 16:38:29 <TD> but i guess it's also useful to do things efficiently, as "mod curve order" is so common in the algorithms
 669 2013-07-08 16:38:46 <BlueMatt> yes, but the primes used in ecdsa arent /that/ hard to generate, no?
 670 2013-07-08 16:39:41 <TD> no, i don't think so
 671 2013-07-08 16:39:42 licnep has joined
 672 2013-07-08 16:39:59 <TD> i don't know what use really huge primes have. but then i guess, back when the mersenne primes were first being researched nobody predicted ECC either
 673 2013-07-08 16:40:10 <BlueMatt> true
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 676 2013-07-08 16:41:09 <TD> still, it's an interesting paper because i was telling some journalist from the FT just the other day that nobody knows a way to make bitcoin do useful scientific work instead of hashing
 677 2013-07-08 16:41:17 <TD> so now i'm already wrong and her article isn't even published yet. damn :)
 678 2013-07-08 16:41:23 <Diablo-D3> lol
 679 2013-07-08 16:41:30 <BlueMatt> heh
 680 2013-07-08 16:41:32 <Diablo-D3> so what are we doing then?
 681 2013-07-08 16:41:42 <Diablo-D3> finding voodoo magic primes?
 682 2013-07-08 16:42:19 * Diablo-D3 missed half the conversation :<
 683 2013-07-08 16:42:49 <TD> BlueMatt: the other issue is that i don't think primecoin actually finds large prime numbers. from a quick scan read of the paper, they seem to find small primes because those are the only ones efficiently tested
 684 2013-07-08 16:42:55 <TD> it's quite complicated but sounds legit
 685 2013-07-08 16:43:11 <Diablo-D3> TD: wait
 686 2013-07-08 16:43:12 <Diablo-D3> hold up
 687 2013-07-08 16:43:15 <TD> so i don't really understand how you'd use the outputs
 688 2013-07-08 16:43:21 <Diablo-D3> wouldnt primecoin be useless?
 689 2013-07-08 16:43:29 <Diablo-D3> you'd just keep finding the same primes over and over
 690 2013-07-08 16:43:36 <TD> http://ppcoin.org/static/primecoin-paper.pdf
 691 2013-07-08 16:43:42 <TD> best to read the paper. the proofs of work aren't just pure primes
 692 2013-07-08 16:43:46 <TD> they're "prime chains"
 693 2013-07-08 16:43:56 <BlueMatt> TD: ahh, fun
 694 2013-07-08 16:44:13 <Diablo-D3> TD: does paper describe what a prime chain is?
 695 2013-07-08 16:45:03 <petertodd> BlueMatt: grep RETURN src/tests/data/* and you'll see everyone - not much too them
 696 2013-07-08 16:45:05 <TD> yes
 697 2013-07-08 16:45:11 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
 698 2013-07-08 16:45:26 <Diablo-D3> btw question
 699 2013-07-08 16:45:27 <TD> "It then precludes Mersenne primes and leads to the use of
 700 2013-07-08 16:45:27 <TD> prime chain as primecoin’s work, since finding a prime chain gets
 701 2013-07-08 16:45:27 <TD> exponentially harder (with our current theoretical and algorithmic
 702 2013-07-08 16:45:27 <TD> understanding) as the chain length increases, yet verification of a
 703 2013-07-08 16:45:27 <TD> reasonably sized prime is efficient"
 704 2013-07-08 16:45:51 <Diablo-D3> why doesnt a coin use mulitiple methods?
 705 2013-07-08 16:46:00 <TD> for what? pow?
 706 2013-07-08 16:46:07 <petertodd> TD: It's easy to make Bitcoin to useful scientific work: scientists in Antarctica are cold.
 707 2013-07-08 16:46:15 <BlueMatt> petertodd: oh, they are in standard script tests
 708 2013-07-08 16:46:16 <TD> lol
 709 2013-07-08 16:46:17 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 710 2013-07-08 16:46:19 <TD> i'll remember that one
 711 2013-07-08 16:46:55 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: multiple PoW methods is surprisingly difficult to pull off because PoW is a random process
 712 2013-07-08 16:47:04 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: yeah but
 713 2013-07-08 16:47:18 <Diablo-D3> people could run PoWs that are targeted for different hardware types
 714 2013-07-08 16:47:39 <Diablo-D3> like, let the asic guys do sha256 hmac like they are doing now
 715 2013-07-08 16:47:41 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: right, but *allowing* multiple PoW's but not *enforcing* multiple PoW's just gives you even more 51% attack targets
 716 2013-07-08 16:47:52 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: well not quite
 717 2013-07-08 16:48:10 <Diablo-D3> previous block is still previous block no matter what pow solved it
 718 2013-07-08 16:48:39 <Diablo-D3> and difficulty would be based on previous 2016 of THAT block type
 719 2013-07-08 16:48:39 <TD> lol@ alt coins forum. i didn't look at it for a long time
 720 2013-07-08 16:48:41 <TD> AmericanCoin??
 721 2013-07-08 16:48:56 <Diablo-D3> AMERICANCOIN: BECAUSE FIAT IS AN ITALIAN CAR
 722 2013-07-08 16:48:58 * Diablo-D3 runs
 723 2013-07-08 16:49:09 <gmaxwell> TD: there are lots of ways to use POW for "scientific work"- you can turn any randomizable optimization problem into a proof of work- but they imply ugly compromises: e.g. you can't convince people that the problem doesn't have trapdoors.
 724 2013-07-08 16:49:13 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: It only helps if you have some method by which the overall work done needs to be done by more than one PoW - doing so on a per-block basis is tough, doing so overall is tricky too.
 725 2013-07-08 16:49:29 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: so what, chain wild shit?
 726 2013-07-08 16:49:34 jordandotdev has joined
 727 2013-07-08 16:49:36 <gmaxwell> and it's not like finding primes or "prime chains" is likely to be all that more "useful" than finding partial preimages of zero. :P
 728 2013-07-08 16:49:41 <TD> right
 729 2013-07-08 16:50:12 <gmaxwell> TD: I like to point out to people that the work bitcoin does is already useful: it makes bitcoin work/secure... we're usually not disappointed that other computation doesn't accomplish two things at once. :P
 730 2013-07-08 16:50:13 <TD> gmaxwell: interesting, thanks
 731 2013-07-08 16:50:14 <Diablo-D3> like, solve sha256 hmac that fits target, then try to use that to find a scrypt that fits target?
 732 2013-07-08 16:50:16 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: Ok, but now you run into weird situations where you can have found PoW #1, and you are in a desperate race to find PoW #2 - it's very complex.
 733 2013-07-08 16:50:20 <Diablo-D3> that could be fucking hilarious
 734 2013-07-08 16:50:39 <TD> yeah. i never found the "not useful" argument compelling. especially as our current network speed seems to be plenty sufficient to stop malicious rollbacks and with ASICs it's a trivial amount of power
 735 2013-07-08 16:50:48 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: well Im like, block 1 could be sha256, block 2 could be scrypt, block 3 could be another sha256, block 4 could be a prime chain
 736 2013-07-08 16:50:59 <petertodd> TD: The only useful PoW I know of is proving you posess some data.
 737 2013-07-08 16:51:18 <TD> http://amccoin.com/ hilarious
 738 2013-07-08 16:51:19 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: so cpu users fight the gpu users fight the asic users
 739 2013-07-08 16:51:26 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: think about what kind of incentives you create, as I say, it's complex. Not impossible, just really quite complex.
 740 2013-07-08 16:51:28 <TD> "AmericanCoin AMC is based on Litecoin and is the most patriotic crypto-currency ever. It has a block reward of 100 coins and will have a total of 168 million coins. This makes it 2 times that of LiteCoin. It is a lite version of Bitcoin optimized for CPU mining using scrypt as a proof of work."
 741 2013-07-08 16:51:51 <Diablo-D3> TD: so yet another coin that didnt read the scrypt whitepaper?
 742 2013-07-08 16:52:01 <Diablo-D3> lets see if they can hear me in #litecoin
 743 2013-07-08 16:52:03 <TD> "Emerald is an innovative new alt coin. It is a Litecoin clone, so it uses scrypt for mining. Emerald uses a relative fast 20 second block time for continuously releasing the coins to miners."
 744 2013-07-08 16:52:08 <Diablo-D3> YOU'RE USING SCRYPT WRONG, ASSHOLES
 745 2013-07-08 16:52:08 <TD> now that's innovation
 746 2013-07-08 16:52:12 <TD> where do they get this stuff from?
 747 2013-07-08 16:52:19 <Diablo-D3> man, you know what
 748 2013-07-08 16:52:24 <Diablo-D3> Im going to invent slowcoin
 749 2013-07-08 16:52:34 <Diablo-D3> it mines a block once an hour
 750 2013-07-08 16:52:35 <TheLordOfTime> Diablo-D3:  lol.  make it have slow blocks, I take it.
 751 2013-07-08 16:52:39 <Diablo-D3> no
 752 2013-07-08 16:52:41 <Diablo-D3> ONCE A DAY
 753 2013-07-08 16:52:41 <petertodd> pff... The most patriotic coin out there would be "<country foo> Coin is based on proving you posess a government-issued smartcard identity card."
 754 2013-07-08 16:52:58 <TD> "WorldCoin: There are NO current bounties due to the fact that only 1 Person has donated for a whopping total of 10WDC, we are very disappointed at the lack of community support for all the hard work we have done."
 755 2013-07-08 16:53:08 <Diablo-D3> oh man
 756 2013-07-08 16:53:15 <Diablo-D3> I think my idea would work
 757 2013-07-08 16:53:48 <Diablo-D3> once a day, reward is 1... 1... sol?
 758 2013-07-08 16:53:52 <Diablo-D3> 50 sols?
 759 2013-07-08 16:54:13 <Diablo-D3> and we could use the unicode weather section for our currency symbol
 760 2013-07-08 16:54:22 <TD> https://github.com/primecoin/primecoin
 761 2013-07-08 16:54:27 <TD> the primecoin guy didn't even bother changing the readme!
 762 2013-07-08 16:54:28 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: It's called SteamPunkCoin: 1 month block interval, and the proof-of-work can be computed on a Babbage Difference Engine
 763 2013-07-08 16:54:38 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: lo.
 764 2013-07-08 16:55:16 <petertodd> TD: most scamcoins don't
 765 2013-07-08 16:55:59 <Diablo-D3> so
 766 2013-07-08 16:56:03 <Diablo-D3> 1 block a day, 50 sols, and uh
 767 2013-07-08 16:56:07 <Diablo-D3> it never decreases
 768 2013-07-08 16:56:14 <Diablo-D3> so its vaguely inflationary
 769 2013-07-08 16:56:15 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 770 2013-07-08 16:56:41 patcon has joined
 771 2013-07-08 16:56:43 <Diablo-D3> and it takes 3 blocks to verify a transaction
 772 2013-07-08 16:56:43 <TD> wow. british government is making me proud today.
 773 2013-07-08 16:56:59 <Diablo-D3> TD: how many people did they kill through a broken healthcare system today?
 774 2013-07-08 16:57:13 <TD> on the same day, they announce a new curriculum that involves teaching programming to all secondary schoolers (mandatory!) from 12 years+, all schools will have 3D printers, and bitcoin exchanges are not regulated at all
 775 2013-07-08 16:57:24 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 776 2013-07-08 16:57:32 <Diablo-D3> >programming
 777 2013-07-08 16:57:32 <BlueMatt> hey, someone (pretends) to get it
 778 2013-07-08 16:57:33 <Diablo-D3> NO THANKS
 779 2013-07-08 16:57:43 <Diablo-D3> no more fucking python and java faggots please
 780 2013-07-08 16:57:44 <petertodd> TD: as a Canadian I'm feeling vaguely more appreciative of the queen
 781 2013-07-08 16:57:45 patcon has joined
 782 2013-07-08 16:57:57 <Diablo-D3> unless they teach them lisp or erlang, UK can diaf
 783 2013-07-08 16:57:57 <TD> i'm sure they will all learn visual basic, don't worry
 784 2013-07-08 16:58:13 <Diablo-D3> or haskell
 785 2013-07-08 16:58:32 <petertodd> Heh, there's some embarassing visual basic out there with my name on it from when I was about 12...
 786 2013-07-08 16:58:49 <Diablo-D3> everyone who thinks java, python, ruby, or c++ are good langs should never be allowed near a computer again
 787 2013-07-08 16:59:05 <pigeons> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/linus-torvalds-visual-basic-fan.html
 788 2013-07-08 16:59:14 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: those are all languages that are good in the hands of those who understand how computers works
 789 2013-07-08 16:59:36 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: yes, but a) thats a tiny little almost non-existent minority...
 790 2013-07-08 16:59:43 <Diablo-D3> and b) those people like to use better languages.
 791 2013-07-08 17:00:39 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: My highschool comp-sci class spent half the year doing pen-and-paper exercises on a made-up machine language/assembly language - those people do exist.
 792 2013-07-08 17:03:01 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck dont they just buy several copies of the knuth bible and teach from that
 793 2013-07-08 17:03:35 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 794 2013-07-08 17:04:01 patcon has joined
 795 2013-07-08 17:04:53 <Diablo-D3> AoCP will turn anyone into a real programmer
 796 2013-07-08 17:05:48 * Diablo-D3 throws a T in there
 797 2013-07-08 17:07:10 Spiralvortex has joined
 798 2013-07-08 17:07:40 <gjs278> I only write in golang
 799 2013-07-08 17:08:30 <sturles> Perl!
 800 2013-07-08 17:08:32 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 801 2013-07-08 17:09:20 <gjs278> perl would be cool if my package manager actually kept track of modules when they become incompatible
 802 2013-07-08 17:10:43 [\\\] has joined
 803 2013-07-08 17:10:48 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: I'm sure my teacher had a copy
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 814 2013-07-08 17:23:29 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: well
 815 2013-07-08 17:23:36 <Diablo-D3> perl doesnt technically HAVE a package manager
 816 2013-07-08 17:23:44 <Diablo-D3> cpan is just a frontend for the cpan repo
 817 2013-07-08 17:23:48 <Diablo-D3> which isnt PART of perl
 818 2013-07-08 17:23:57 <Diablo-D3> its just completely indespensible
 819 2013-07-08 17:24:16 <Diablo-D3> and nothing stops you from using the cpan module to write a containerized version of cpan
 820 2013-07-08 17:25:40 [\\\] has joined
 821 2013-07-08 17:26:16 patcon has joined
 822 2013-07-08 17:26:36 <midnightmagic> cpan is the devil
 823 2013-07-08 17:26:52 <Diablo-D3> I am not cpan, nor did I have anything to do with its construction
 824 2013-07-08 17:28:23 * midnightmagic wonders why TD is proud of his government..
 825 2013-07-08 17:29:08 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: clearly, most efficient at murdering citizens in the world
 826 2013-07-08 17:29:13 <Diablo-D3> even better than sadam's iraq
 827 2013-07-08 17:29:33 <midnightmagic> Ah. He wasn't serious. I should've read the next couple of lines.
 828 2013-07-08 17:29:36 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 829 2013-07-08 17:30:26 brson has joined
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 831 2013-07-08 17:30:34 GordonG3kko has joined
 832 2013-07-08 17:30:39 <midnightmagic> Well I'm happy! Our insane Public Safety Minister Vic Toews, universally reviled for his insane, invasive policies to "fight terror", resigned!!
 833 2013-07-08 17:30:47 <midnightmagic> woo!!
 834 2013-07-08 17:31:33 <TD> better hope the new boss isn't the same as the old boss ;)
 835 2013-07-08 17:31:41 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 836 2013-07-08 17:31:59 <midnightmagic> It's impossible. There is no Canadian that exists who could do the job who's any worse.
 837 2013-07-08 17:32:42 <midnightmagic> "Looking back, I believe I accomplished what I did because of my desire to work with other like-minded people."  - Vic Toews   <-- and that, in a nutshell, is basically the entire neocon majority party right now.
 838 2013-07-08 17:32:50 Application has joined
 839 2013-07-08 17:33:37 <Diablo-D3> lol.
 840 2013-07-08 17:33:43 <Diablo-D3> he thinks hes people
 841 2013-07-08 17:33:44 <Diablo-D3> lol
 842 2013-07-08 17:34:35 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 843 2013-07-08 17:34:55 <gjs278> if cpan were written by saddam it would keep track of what I have installed and actually have an uninstall feature
 844 2013-07-08 17:35:52 <midnightmagic> cpan? uninstall? you're smoking crack like those people in the row behind me in that concert I went to on Friday.
 845 2013-07-08 17:39:10 GordonG3kko has joined
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 847 2013-07-08 17:40:14 B0g4r7 has joined
 848 2013-07-08 17:41:44 <helo> smoking crack at a concert?
 849 2013-07-08 17:42:37 <Ry4an> it wasn't a "concert" so much as an in-crack-den-house-show, but who are we to judge midnightmagic?  ;)
 850 2013-07-08 17:42:40 * helo avoids asking if it was a whitney houston tribute concert
 851 2013-07-08 17:43:17 <helo> ohai, that's a tiny bit offtopic
 852 2013-07-08 17:43:20 <midnightmagic> helo: Actually I think it was coke. And the guy next to me had some kind of newfangled vape that looked like a laser pointer with tiny little LEDs on one side.
 853 2013-07-08 17:43:29 <jgarzik> grumble
 854 2013-07-08 17:43:38 <jgarzik> I dislike reading code (chainparams.cpp) to find constants
 855 2013-07-08 17:43:46 <jgarzik> should be in headers
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 858 2013-07-08 17:48:23 peetaur2 has joined
 859 2013-07-08 17:48:43 <helo> i recently realized a nasty learned behavior that i've been doing for years: toggling behavior by commenting out #define statements, and using ifdef/ifndef. instead of #define USE_THINGY 1 with #if
 860 2013-07-08 17:49:15 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 861 2013-07-08 17:49:55 <helo> the former misbehaving on typos like #ifndef USE_THNGY :(
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 864 2013-07-08 17:52:58 <gmaxwell> helo: Yea, I've been surprised that that doesn't cause problems more often.  As an aside, #if defined(FOO) has the useful property that you can #if defined(FOO) && 0
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 867 2013-07-08 17:59:21 <Luke-Jr> warren: it's weak, but I don't think I have any more reliable way
 868 2013-07-08 17:59:23 TD is now known as TD[gone]
 869 2013-07-08 17:59:40 <Luke-Jr> warren: I didn't comment on how good it was, just that I'd done it ☺
 870 2013-07-08 18:00:10 <Luke-Jr> warren: photo id, for example, is worthless because it does not prove to me Warren T. was whom I've spoken with many times before
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 876 2013-07-08 18:06:45 <petertodd> What would have been more useful is if we had signed coblee's key at the bitcoin conference.
 877 2013-07-08 18:07:01 <petertodd> warren: coblee is in a better position to sign your key in many ways.
 878 2013-07-08 18:07:40 <petertodd> We can authenticate coblee even after the conf better given he's well known publicly now.
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 884 2013-07-08 18:12:47 justusranvier is now known as justusranvier_
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 887 2013-07-08 18:16:09 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: he did, didn't he?
 888 2013-07-08 18:16:29 <Luke-Jr> I see a signature on warren's key from Charles Lee 4EF26053
 889 2013-07-08 18:16:48 <Luke-Jr> hmm, which curiously does NOT match the key I have for coblee
 890 2013-07-08 18:18:29 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh your right, matches the key I have for coblee
 891 2013-07-08 18:18:40 <petertodd> I think I got that key relatively recently though
 892 2013-07-08 18:21:21 peter has joined
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 895 2013-07-08 18:22:27 <warren> Luke-Jr: the link I sent contained multiple hard-to-fake side-band means to verify identity
 896 2013-07-08 18:22:39 PrimeStunna has joined
 897 2013-07-08 18:22:41 <Luke-Jr> warren: what is identity?
 898 2013-07-08 18:22:51 <Luke-Jr> ☺
 899 2013-07-08 18:22:54 <petertodd> warren: The side-bands are only useful if we know you in person somehow.
 900 2013-07-08 18:22:59 CheckDavid has joined
 901 2013-07-08 18:23:14 <warren> and ... none of us are trained to authenticate government id
 902 2013-07-08 18:23:22 <Luke-Jr> government id is worthless
 903 2013-07-08 18:23:36 <Luke-Jr> all that matters IMO is whether you are the same Warren who has been workign with us for months now
 904 2013-07-08 18:23:54 <warren> "with"?  how about "against"? =P
 905 2013-07-08 18:23:56 <warren> joking
 906 2013-07-08 18:24:03 <Luke-Jr> …
 907 2013-07-08 18:24:47 <petertodd> warren: The most useful way to authenticate me, for instance, is to verify that "visual me" matches the guy who gave a talk at the Bitcoin conference.
 908 2013-07-08 18:25:01 <warren> petertodd: we fixed our determinism issue, still waiting on font size bug fix then we're theoretically done
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 910 2013-07-08 18:29:02 <petertodd> It's too bad coblee didn't put his PGP fingerprint in the litecoin genesis block...
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 912 2013-07-08 18:29:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: he can just signmessage with the key in it, enh?
 913 2013-07-08 18:30:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh sure, but that's not timestamped as well
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 932 2013-07-08 18:47:04 <Vinnie_win> sup
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 934 2013-07-08 18:47:57 <warren> petertodd: how would the lack of timestamping make it any less trusted?
 935 2013-07-08 18:48:38 <petertodd> warren: coblee might have had his computer hacked
 936 2013-07-08 18:48:54 <petertodd> warren: PGP key at least gives the options of hardware keys and similar
 937 2013-07-08 18:49:16 <warren> petertodd: unless you make an absurd key like me....
 938 2013-07-08 18:49:46 <petertodd> warren: one disadvantage of absurd keys
 939 2013-07-08 18:50:13 <petertodd> warren: Don't build a vault-like fence gate if the fence is a white picket fence.
 940 2013-07-08 18:50:44 <warren> Defense in depth.  the absurd key is just another layer.
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 944 2013-07-08 18:51:30 <petertodd> Not a useful layer if it prevents or distracts from the use of other layers.
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 955 2013-07-08 19:21:20 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,gen 4500000
 956 2013-07-08 19:21:20 <gribble> use the 'genrate' command instead
 957 2013-07-08 19:21:26 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,genrate 4500000
 958 2013-07-08 19:21:26 <gribble> Error: "bc,genrate" is not a valid command.
 959 2013-07-08 19:22:35 <rlifchitz> ;;genrate 4.5
 960 2013-07-08 19:22:36 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 4.5 Mhps, given difficulty of 21335329.114, is 0.000106071920046 BTC per day and 4.41966333526e-06 BTC per hour.
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 964 2013-07-08 19:29:25 <jgarzik> ;;gentime 4.5
 965 2013-07-08 19:29:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4.5 Mhps, given difficulty of 21335329.114, is 645 years, 37 weeks, 5 days, 3 hours, 26 minutes, and 50 seconds
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 972 2013-07-08 19:36:21 <rlifchitz> ;;genrate 4500
 973 2013-07-08 19:36:22 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 4500.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 21335329.114, is 0.106071920046 BTC per day and 0.00441966333526 BTC per hour.
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 996 2013-07-08 20:03:05 <jgarzik> alas
 997 2013-07-08 20:03:34 <jgarzik> Bitcoin-Qt disappears from view, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1hvmnf/multibit_replaces_bitcoinqt_on_the_choose_your/
 998 2013-07-08 20:03:45 <jgarzik> on bitcoin.org website
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1003 2013-07-08 20:12:19 <BlueMatt> the fact that both "get started" wallets are bitcoinj-based scares me
1004 2013-07-08 20:12:44 execut3 has left ()
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1009 2013-07-08 20:15:28 * Luke-Jr wonders since when multibit.org broke :/
1010 2013-07-08 20:15:49 <Luke-Jr> full page reads (for me): Bad Accept-Language header value: 'en-GB, en-us;q=0.8, en;q=0.6, en_US;q=0.4, *'
1011 2013-07-08 20:16:18 <BlueMatt> wfm
1012 2013-07-08 20:17:23 ericmuyser has joined
1013 2013-07-08 20:20:13 <BlueMatt> (in chrome)
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1020 2013-07-08 20:33:46 <Luke-Jr> anyone understand what's going on with this primecoin PoW?
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1025 2013-07-08 20:37:49 <warren> Luke-Jr: apparently finding prime numbers is "useful"
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1031 2013-07-08 20:41:18 <warren> hmm, does Multibit support calculating fees?
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1039 2013-07-08 20:54:20 <BlueMatt> warren: it supports calculating min relayable fee, and possibly more, dunno
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1041 2013-07-08 20:55:59 <warren> BlueMatt: sounds promising.  I will need to port bitcoinj, android and multibit next then.
1042 2013-07-08 20:56:15 <BlueMatt> warren: port to...?
1043 2013-07-08 20:57:03 <warren> BlueMatt: Litecoin protocol.  some idiot published a crappily made bitcoinj and android wallet to Google Play that's incapable of calculating Litecoin fees, so users are getting screwed by stuck transactions.
1044 2013-07-08 20:58:00 <BlueMatt> bitcoinj's fee code very specifically targets bitcoind's dust/fee relay rules, so unless LTC's rules are the same (+/- constant values) it would be hard to port properly
1045 2013-07-08 20:58:17 <BlueMatt> also note that the android wallet (currently) just attaches constant min_fee to all transactions
1046 2013-07-08 20:58:21 <warren> BlueMatt: yeah, will need to be reworked
1047 2013-07-08 20:58:28 <warren> BlueMatt: yeah, will need to be reworked
1048 2013-07-08 20:58:42 <warren> BlueMatt: either way I need to figure out ways to make it maintainble in the long-term
1049 2013-07-08 20:59:52 TD has joined
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1051 2013-07-08 21:01:05 <BlueMatt> yea...good luck porting https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/Wallet.java#3197
1052 2013-07-08 21:01:10 <BlueMatt> warren: ^
1053 2013-07-08 21:03:55 <TD> hmm?
1054 2013-07-08 21:04:22 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1055 2013-07-08 21:04:36 <BlueMatt> he's talking about porting fee calculating code to ltc
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1057 2013-07-08 21:07:49 <TD> ah
1058 2013-07-08 21:08:04 <TD> the fee code is complicated, yes. did you see goonies feature req?
1059 2013-07-08 21:08:19 <TD> for receiver-pays-fees
1060 2013-07-08 21:08:54 <BlueMatt> how does that work w/o payment protocol (and mempool rewrite)?
1061 2013-07-08 21:09:00 <BlueMatt> or do you mean in bitcoind?
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1064 2013-07-08 21:12:55 <TD> it works in the obvious way
1065 2013-07-08 21:13:05 <TD> you say "send 1 btc" and it sends 1 btc minus fees
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1067 2013-07-08 21:13:36 <BlueMatt> oh, you mean just decrease value spent instead of decreasing it
1068 2013-07-08 21:13:43 <TD> so i guess to support that we need to start with the requested amount, try calculating fees assuming some giant fake input that always satisfies any transaction or something, then try again with the balanced reduced by that amount
1069 2013-07-08 21:13:46 <TD> or something like that
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1071 2013-07-08 21:14:28 <BlueMatt> yea, that would be tricky to do right, but considering bitcoin-wallet currently just adds the default min fee, it wouldnt be hard
1072 2013-07-08 21:14:33 <BlueMatt> (to do at the app layer)
1073 2013-07-08 21:14:51 <warren> TD: I would need to implement Litecoin's priority calculation and dust-penalty rules into bitcoinj
1074 2013-07-08 21:14:54 <TD> well … i'd like a general solution because i'd like to bring back mostly-free transactions at some point
1075 2013-07-08 21:15:00 <TD> the random 27kb limit is bizarre and should be removed
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1077 2013-07-08 21:15:18 <warren> TD: hmm, I hear from other bitcoin devs they want to get rid of free tx's entirely ...
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1079 2013-07-08 21:15:34 <TD> yeah, seems i'm often the odd one out in this crowd ;)
1080 2013-07-08 21:15:35 <warren> TD: I discovered a bug wrt the 27KB limit in bitcoin
1081 2013-07-08 21:15:39 <BlueMatt> warren: no one "wants" to, afaik, some just think its impossible
1082 2013-07-08 21:15:41 <TD> "it exists" :)
1083 2013-07-08 21:15:43 <BlueMatt> I entirely disagree
1084 2013-07-08 21:15:49 <TD> ok me and matt :)
1085 2013-07-08 21:15:53 <BlueMatt> :)
1086 2013-07-08 21:16:21 <warren> TD: I was surprised when I lowered the 27KB limit to 10KB that a 9.5KB tx that qualifies under all the zero fee tx rules gets rejected as "not enough fees"
1087 2013-07-08 21:16:42 <warren> TD: I would have thought it should be accepted into mempool and mined sometime later when there's room
1088 2013-07-08 21:16:48 <TD> it's 27kb per block, right? maybe some other tx was already sitting there
1089 2013-07-08 21:17:39 <BlueMatt> the fee rules are essentially entirely arbitrary at this point
1090 2013-07-08 21:17:41 <TD> basically the issue is we need to remove this random 27kb limit and make nodes understand how much RAM they're allowed to use (command line flag or gui setting or heuristic or something). then make the mempool ordered by priority (fees*coin age) and drop the lowpri txns
1091 2013-07-08 21:17:51 <TD> in this way transactions that spend old coins get to go for free
1092 2013-07-08 21:18:03 <TD> for many casual users, this means most of their transactions can be free without any anti-spam issues
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1094 2013-07-08 21:18:28 <TD> and free transactions are awfully nice aren't they? otherwise you start encountering difficult questions from new users, like "if bitcoin isn't owned by anyone, who am i paying fees to?"
1095 2013-07-08 21:18:40 <TD> which is an eminently sensible question with no easy answer
1096 2013-07-08 21:18:46 <warren> TD: ooh, that sounds good
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1098 2013-07-08 21:19:14 <TD> better to avoid it entirely by maximising free transactions, and then hiding the cost inside merchant prices for most of the rest. merchants can be expected to do the 5 minutes research to understand where the fees go and why they're needed
1099 2013-07-08 21:19:19 <TD> end users - not so much
1100 2013-07-08 21:19:35 <warren> TD: I'd still like to impose an arbitrary limit per block so people have an incentive to pay a voluntary fee if they want to ensure no delays
1101 2013-07-08 21:19:48 <TD> why?
1102 2013-07-08 21:20:16 <warren> TD: voluntary fees are good for the health of the network?
1103 2013-07-08 21:20:29 <TD> they make no difference today. fees are dwarfed by inflation
1104 2013-07-08 21:20:41 <TD> when inflation does finally dry up there's debate on what form support for miners will take
1105 2013-07-08 21:20:59 <TD> individual users paying fees-per-tx seem unlikely to be the outcome though for a host of reasons. anyway we're years off that yet.
1106 2013-07-08 21:21:01 <warren> TD: I'd like the arbitrary limit per block but for it to accept qualifying high priority tx into mempool up to a certain limit of memory use.
1107 2013-07-08 21:21:47 <warren> the current behavior is broken, IMHO
1108 2013-07-08 21:22:06 <TD> nobody would disagree with that
1109 2013-07-08 21:22:19 <TD> gavin wants to work on fixing it but he seems to be AWOL at the moment. i guess he's busy moving to oz
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1111 2013-07-08 21:22:41 <warren> TD: has the discussion of what exactly to do been written anywhere?
1112 2013-07-08 21:22:55 <warren> TD: this needs to be fixed first in Bitcoin ... I don't want to maintain diffs in Litecoin
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1114 2013-07-08 21:23:28 <TD> there was some stuff on one of the last fee change pullreqs where gavin outlined his plan. but i think the exact details not yet written down
1115 2013-07-08 21:23:39 <warren> more tribal knowledge =)
1116 2013-07-08 21:24:27 <TD> right :)
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1131 2013-07-08 21:35:56 <petertodd> TD: why are you assuming no child-pays-for-parent or out-of-band fee payment? the former is easy, and the latter not much harder
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1134 2013-07-08 21:36:30 <TD> those are the right solutions in most cases but are further out. also one of the use cases is emptying one wallet into another
1135 2013-07-08 21:36:43 <TD> a very common way for new users to test the android wallet is to send some money to it, then try to send it all back
1136 2013-07-08 21:36:50 <TD> which then fails because they don't know the right fee to attach
1137 2013-07-08 21:37:02 <TD> (or rather, the have to do the subtraction in their head, which sucks)
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1139 2013-07-08 21:37:30 <petertodd> child-pays-for-parent already was implemented by luke-jr once and I've got a second implementation integrated into the mempool, it's not hard if you just want an implementation good enough for the payment protocol to work
1140 2013-07-08 21:38:07 <TD> sure and i still want to see that happen. but we can implement a feature like what goonie wanted and ship it to users in about 5 days
1141 2013-07-08 21:38:18 <TD> it's hard to beat that with anything requiring changes on the bitcoin-qt side
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1143 2013-07-08 21:38:44 <TD> sorry i haven't had a chance to review your pull yet. i took a quick look over it and it looked reasonable but didn't do a deep read yet. been busy trying to track down other bugs in bitcoinj
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1145 2013-07-08 21:39:15 <petertodd> TD: it's more of a "lets see if the pull-tester works" pull actually... it's not finished
1146 2013-07-08 21:39:28 <TD> ok. then i'll wait
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1148 2013-07-08 21:40:02 <petertodd> seems that the android problem here is one easily solved by reasonable fees, although I'll admit that's a short-term thing that needs updating for now
1149 2013-07-08 21:40:27 <petertodd> But don't get people into the mindset of something for nothing - your example would require parent-pays-for-child really.
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1151 2013-07-08 21:42:06 <Luke-Jr> TD: child-pay-for-parent has been LIVE ON MAINNET for over a year
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1158 2013-07-08 21:53:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: indeed - what pools other than eligius are using it?
1159 2013-07-08 21:54:05 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: elgius has a fair bit of hashing power these days too
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1162 2013-07-08 21:58:41 <michagogo> [23:50:14] <TD> and free transactions are awfully nice aren't they? otherwise you start encountering difficult questions from new users, like "if bitcoin isn't owned by anyone, who am i paying fees to?"
1163 2013-07-08 21:58:41 <michagogo> [23:50:26] <TD> which is an eminently sensible question with no easy answer
1164 2013-07-08 21:58:54 <michagogo> How in the world is there "no easy answer"?
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1168 2013-07-08 22:02:23 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: at least EclipseMC
1169 2013-07-08 22:02:29 <nsh> it's hard if you're not good at arranging words to convey ideas
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1172 2013-07-08 22:03:36 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so thats about 3% of the total between emc and eligius?
1173 2013-07-08 22:03:51 <gmaxwell> stupid hashpower growth.
1174 2013-07-08 22:03:53 * Luke-Jr doesn't keep track anymore
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1178 2013-07-08 22:09:11 <petertodd> Eligius is 3.6% and Eclipse is 3.5%, so 7.1%
1179 2013-07-08 22:09:24 <petertodd> (according to http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/chart.php)
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1270 2013-07-08 23:49:47 <warren> TD[gone]: the current broken 27KB zero fee behavior I think also breaks child-pays-for-parent
1271 2013-07-08 23:50:06 <warren> TD[gone]: child can't pay for parent when the child is an orphan because the parent was rejected with "not enough fees" due to the bug
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1278 2013-07-08 23:55:08 <gmaxwell> warren: luke's code addresses orphan behavior, IIRC.
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1280 2013-07-08 23:55:52 <warren> gmaxwell: does it also address the broken accept() criteria for high priority tx?
1281 2013-07-08 23:56:06 <gmaxwell> broken how?
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1286 2013-07-08 23:58:52 <warren> gmaxwell: for example, if you change 27KB to 10KB, it rejects a 9.5KB transaction with sufficiently high priority to qualify as free tx with "not enough fees".  Yes, it shouldn't be mined if the block already has free tx so as not to exceed the per-block limit, but it shouldn't be rejected as "not enough fees".  It should accept into mempool and be delayed until there is room in a later block.
1287 2013-07-08 23:59:12 <warren> gmaxwell: TD mentioned earlier that it should accept such tx's until some defined memory limit so as to avoid DoS
1288 2013-07-08 23:59:48 <gmaxwell> This isn't a bug its the current intended behavior. Please don't use confusing redefinitions.