1 2013-07-09 00:00:08 <gmaxwell> (not that its necessarily an ideal behavior or anything, but its not a bug)
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3 2013-07-09 00:00:28 <warren> gmaxwell: intended? ok, well does this new approach sound better?
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5 2013-07-09 00:01:25 <gmaxwell> the rationale there is that the network was only interested in subsidizing sufficiently non-bloaty transactions as outright free ones. It makes less sense today because our definition of non-bloating has shifted some.
6 2013-07-09 00:01:47 <gmaxwell> And the whole idea of an outright mempool exclusion isn't compatible with a child pays for parent, of course.
7 2013-07-09 00:01:53 <warren> if that's so, then why the 10KB threshold?
8 2013-07-09 00:02:06 <warren> ok, glad there's agreement there.
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10 2013-07-09 00:02:54 <warren> I'd like this issue to be fixed, because I wasn't able to drop the 27KB arbitrary limit. With our 4x block time that's 108KB per 10 minutes which is excessive. I want people to have some fear of delay so they pay voluntary fees.
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12 2013-07-09 00:03:19 <gmaxwell> What issue??!
13 2013-07-09 00:03:30 <gmaxwell> If you don't like the limit, remove it.
14 2013-07-09 00:03:43 <warren> gmaxwell: I want to shrink the limit, but I can't
15 2013-07-09 00:03:46 <warren> it broke things
16 2013-07-09 00:04:09 <warren> gmaxwell: I want it to accept high priority tx's into mempool but be delayed to a later block
17 2013-07-09 00:04:10 <gmaxwell> Then stop fucking with options you don't understand until you understand them?
18 2013-07-09 00:04:30 <gmaxwell> Why?
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20 2013-07-09 00:05:23 <gmaxwell> holding a transaction so you connect its parent that pays for it only makes sense if you're doing child pays for parent.
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22 2013-07-09 00:05:53 <warren> gmaxwell: no need to swear, I do understand it, we may disagree that it is a bug or not. petertodd explains rejecting with "not enough fees" when the current arbitrary limit is passed is reasonable as an anti-DoS measure, but by TD's suggestion of a memory limit instead it seems we would be better off. accept() anything that has high tx, but delay it until there is room in a later block or a child had paid for the parent.
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25 2013-07-09 00:07:38 <gmaxwell> warren: "accept() anything that has high tx, but delay it until there is room in a later block or a child had paid for the parent." is a really large body of code.
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27 2013-07-09 00:08:06 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm just saying I like TD's suggestion, and it helps child-pays-for-parent work better.
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29 2013-07-09 00:09:23 <gmaxwell> warren: sorry, don't expect me to be super happy when you send me off searching bug reports for a non-bug which you're misclassifying as a bug because you want folks here to implement it for you so you can put it in litecoin.
30 2013-07-09 00:09:50 <warren> gmaxwell: ... this would benefit Bitcoin too.
31 2013-07-09 00:10:09 <warren> gmaxwell: you're rejecting high priority tx's right now for arbitrarily tough reasons.
32 2013-07-09 00:10:15 <gmaxwell> There are posts on memory size limited mempool stuff on the development listâ but none of that, on its own, would change the freeness criteria.
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34 2013-07-09 00:10:24 <warren> I know
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36 2013-07-09 00:10:51 <gmaxwell> It's not an arbitrary reason, the network _intentionally_ isnt subsidizing bloaty transactions. Arguably it should instead be some utxo impact or whatever now, but thats orthorgonal.
37 2013-07-09 00:11:41 <warren> gmaxwell: the current rules allows zero fee tx up to 10KB, and the usual reason for those tx is to combine 67 p2pool dust inputs, which is healthy for the network.
38 2013-07-09 00:11:45 <jrmithdobbs> i don't understand why you want the functionality you're talking about in the first place
39 2013-07-09 00:12:04 <jrmithdobbs> but I have a feeling i don't really want to
40 2013-07-09 00:12:56 <gmaxwell> warren: Yes and? As I've repeated, the rule isn't ideal any longer because our scalablity works differently than it used to. But it has nothing to do with mempool management.
41 2013-07-09 00:13:17 <warren> jrmithdobbs: forget about the litecoin part, this is exactly the same issue in Bitcoin, and folks will be surprised with 0.9 when pools begin using the new option to shrink the allowed KB per block and it begins to reject transactions unexpectedly.
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43 2013-07-09 00:13:42 <warren> gmaxwell: ok, I'm interested in how the policy evolves for bitcoin
44 2013-07-09 00:14:17 <gmaxwell> warren: I don't even know why you're talking about allowed KB per block now.
45 2013-07-09 00:14:44 <warren> gmaxwell: because that's where the unexpected behavior happens. 0.8.3 has it hard-coded at 27KB so users rarely notice failure.
46 2013-07-09 00:15:10 <warren> gmaxwell: it is unexpected to see tx that qualify... smaller than that limit, being rejected
47 2013-07-09 00:16:42 <gmaxwell> Do you mean blockpriority size? because that doesn't have anything to do with the block target size.
48 2013-07-09 00:17:16 <warren> gmaxwell: I know
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50 2013-07-09 00:17:44 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm just saying if you change block priority size right now, you will see unexpected behavior
51 2013-07-09 00:18:09 <jrmithdobbs> I'm failing to see how it's unexpected
52 2013-07-09 00:18:49 <jrmithdobbs> think of it as a soft vs hard limit, 10k is the hard limit but some slightly under 10k (that isn't settable) is the soft limit
53 2013-07-09 00:18:54 <jrmithdobbs> could it be less confusing? yes.
54 2013-07-09 00:18:57 <jrmithdobbs> Is it a bug? no.
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57 2013-07-09 00:19:16 <warren> jrmithdobbs: err, it doesn't behave that way either
58 2013-07-09 00:19:29 <jrmithdobbs> it does, there's a fudge factor because of how it does the calculation
59 2013-07-09 00:19:34 <warren> no it doesn't
60 2013-07-09 00:20:11 <warren> If you set it to 10KB now, if you already have 9.9KB of high priority tx, it wont accept the next 225 byte high priority tx.
61 2013-07-09 00:20:50 <jrmithdobbs> and?
62 2013-07-09 00:20:59 <warren> that is non-ideal
63 2013-07-09 00:21:04 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it's the space reserved for high-priority zero fee transactions, cumulativeâ though also a maximum.
64 2013-07-09 00:21:18 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: basically intended to act as a global ratelimiter for free transactions.
65 2013-07-09 00:21:20 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: right but it undersubscribes it to avoid overfilling
66 2013-07-09 00:21:33 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yup.
67 2013-07-09 00:21:49 <jrmithdobbs> i know it's not actually a soft limit damn it, i was using that as an analogy =/
68 2013-07-09 00:21:54 <jrmithdobbs> heh
69 2013-07-09 00:22:36 <jrmithdobbs> warren: so set it to 10.1k. What's the problem again? I'm still not seeing it.
70 2013-07-09 00:22:39 <warren> jrmithdobbs: I'm just saying it would be ideal to change that priority limit per block to the actual MINING limit per block that favors voluntary fee paying high priority tx. If you don't pay a fee, you wait for a later block. There's also a memory limit to prevent DoS, and child can pay for the parent that's stuck in line.
71 2013-07-09 00:23:09 <jrmithdobbs> warren: so in other words: "litecoin crap, please do my work for me" ?
72 2013-07-09 00:23:17 <warren> jrmithdobbs: the current enforcement mechanism breaks at 27KB too
73 2013-07-09 00:23:33 <jrmithdobbs> you've not illustrated it "breaking" at all yet, how can it break in another location "too"?
74 2013-07-09 00:23:36 <gmaxwell> warren: whats this about child can pay for the parent? thats not how it works.
75 2013-07-09 00:23:37 <warren> jrmithdobbs: seriously, is this really just a kneejerk reaction because I work on litecoin? this is non-ideal for bitcoin.
76 2013-07-09 00:24:04 <jrmithdobbs> no it's not, you're not articulating what's broken about the behaviour
77 2013-07-09 00:24:07 <warren> gmaxwell: how can a child pay for a parent that was rejected?
78 2013-07-09 00:24:13 <jrmithdobbs> or more correctly, what you feel is broken
79 2013-07-09 00:24:17 <gmaxwell> warren: A child can't pay for a parent at all.
80 2013-07-09 00:24:33 <warren> isn't petertodd working on child-pays-for-parent?
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82 2013-07-09 00:25:21 <gmaxwell> warren: luke wrote code for it ages ago, bluematt did too, peter todd too, I think jgarzik too. In any case, that code would need to simply maintain a parent cache for that.
83 2013-07-09 00:25:49 <gmaxwell> Luke also has code to do things like priortize specific transactions which also requires rescuing them from rejected state.
84 2013-07-09 00:25:52 <warren> Wouldn't it be *better* if the parent in question wasn't rejected by the arbitrary limit?
85 2013-07-09 00:25:58 <warren> oh ok
86 2013-07-09 00:26:00 <gmaxwell> Its irrelevant.
87 2013-07-09 00:26:12 <warren> I'm interested in learning about the various proposals.
88 2013-07-09 00:26:23 <gmaxwell> then read the pull requests and the mailing list.
89 2013-07-09 00:26:39 <warren> ok
90 2013-07-09 00:26:49 <gmaxwell> Being able to excempt transactions from rejection criteria is a general issue which crops up here and there.
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92 2013-07-09 00:27:20 <warren> I disagree that it is irrelevant, maybe tangentially related.
93 2013-07-09 00:27:45 <warren> I'm interested in the general issue of the 27KB arbitrary limit behaving in a non-ideal way.
94 2013-07-09 00:28:41 <gmaxwell> changing how that limit works doesn't do enough for child pays for parent, since the parent could have been rejected purely on the basis of you filling your memory constrained pool. Simultaniously, having a solution for CPP to recover rejected parents doesn't change the free transaction ratelimiting behavior. Thats why I previously said they're orthorgonal.
95 2013-07-09 00:28:55 <gmaxwell> At some point both will likely change, but probably not related to each other.
96 2013-07-09 00:29:57 <warren> OK, I agree it isn't directly related.
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108 2013-07-09 00:45:45 <badbitcoin> Anyone here interested in a part time job?
109 2013-07-09 00:46:48 <DoctorBTC> badbitcoin: doing?
110 2013-07-09 00:47:30 <badbitcoin> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252474.0 my company is looking to hire a competitent cryptocurrency developer, its a bit of work with bitcoinj and server management, but its equity owning of a soon to be formed corporation
111 2013-07-09 00:47:40 <badbitcoin> it's*
112 2013-07-09 00:48:11 <badbitcoin> this is a long term gig, you won't be paid upfront unfortunately, but its a project that will push the boundaries of what is possible with bitcoin
113 2013-07-09 00:48:35 <warren> "you won't be paid upfront" good luck
114 2013-07-09 00:49:20 <badbitcoin> hmm, what % of the total cost would be reasonable warren? I have money I can use to finance part of the project, but I imagine that I won't have all of it.
115 2013-07-09 00:54:17 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
116 2013-07-09 00:58:26 <Luke-Jr> badbitcoin: long term usually implies salaried, which usually implies the "total cost" is not set.. IMO
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149 2013-07-09 02:10:40 <Luke-Jr> does Multibit have a gitian process yet? O.o
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179 2013-07-09 03:11:48 <warren> Luke-Jr: yeah, gotta worry about that
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323 2013-07-09 08:59:38 <warren> Anyone awake and ready to do a gitian build?
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326 2013-07-09 09:06:00 <xeroc> warren: on archlinux you can install bitcoin-git .. that does everything ouy need
327 2013-07-09 09:06:42 <xeroc> warren: take a look at the PKGBUILD file of arch .. that tells you what to do
328 2013-07-09 09:06:45 <xeroc> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/bi/bitcoin-git/PKGBUILD
329 2013-07-09 09:07:33 <xeroc> fucking great domain: w.tf-w.tf
330 2013-07-09 09:07:46 <warren> xeroc: I'm aware of how to gitian. I just want others to help verify my build.
331 2013-07-09 09:08:58 <xeroc> ah, .... so .. whats in your mind?
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341 2013-07-09 09:16:37 <warren> maybe the different projects that use gitian should have a shared channel where they can request others do verification builds for each other
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345 2013-07-09 09:23:12 <TD> warren: that's a good idea
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347 2013-07-09 09:24:00 <warren> TD: i'm setting up #gitian now
348 2013-07-09 09:24:09 <TD> perhaps a mailing list would work better?
349 2013-07-09 09:24:14 <warren> oh
350 2013-07-09 09:24:17 <warren> TD: you're right
351 2013-07-09 09:24:26 <warren> TD: google group ok?
352 2013-07-09 09:24:33 <TD> sure. i am not actually a gitian builder at the moment
353 2013-07-09 09:24:46 <warren> TD: I find it curious how many of the lead bitcoin devs aren't
354 2013-07-09 09:24:56 <warren> TD: you might have more litecoin devs who are
355 2013-07-09 09:25:03 <TD> whenever i looked at it, it appeared to be amazingly complicated
356 2013-07-09 09:25:10 <TD> but i haven't really invested the time to figure it out
357 2013-07-09 09:25:24 <warren> I'll write step-by-step docs. It isn't too bad.
358 2013-07-09 09:25:38 <warren> TD: the hard part is getting dep inputs that aren't trojaned
359 2013-07-09 09:25:40 <TD> also my main priority is to establish a similar system for the java/spv side
360 2013-07-09 09:25:44 <TD> yeah.
361 2013-07-09 09:25:45 <warren> TD: the upstream projects don't have GPG signatures....
362 2013-07-09 09:26:21 <warren> TD: I intentionally told my team "I will not tell you where I got my dep tarballs. You find it and see if our outputs are identical."
363 2013-07-09 09:26:34 <TD> heh
364 2013-07-09 09:26:41 <warren> TD: I pulled from sources like fedora sources, they found it elsewhere, it was equal.
365 2013-07-09 09:27:07 <TD> cool. good thinking. for bitcoinj someone has developed a build system plugin that verifies the hashes of the dependencies against a master list (maven downloads deps automatically a la apt-get)
366 2013-07-09 09:27:16 <warren> ahh
367 2013-07-09 09:27:23 <warren> I need to learn maven and stuff.
368 2013-07-09 09:27:29 <TD> then my plan is, you get the plugin and the master list from a git repo which is hosted on a google code project admined by the same people who admin the upstream code project
369 2013-07-09 09:27:33 <warren> so many things I need to learn
370 2013-07-09 09:27:42 <TD> and you start from a "git checkout" command signed by the developers
371 2013-07-09 09:27:57 <TD> so your root of trust is the developers and you go from there to end up with a fully verified dependency chain
372 2013-07-09 09:28:08 <warren> TD: I'm quite upset when upstream don't GPG sign things. so many people download ckolivas binaries and there's no way to verify them.
373 2013-07-09 09:28:13 <TD> we assume your build system and java VM are untrojaned
374 2013-07-09 09:28:32 <warren> TD: my procedure didn't assume that even *I* was untrojaned
375 2013-07-09 09:28:46 <TD> well, GPG is hardly a success story. i don't GPG sign things either. nobody would have my key. I prefer letting gmail.com or google.com DKIM sign my emails, it's transparent and in practice just as good
376 2013-07-09 09:28:48 <warren> I assumed the sources I pulled from fedora were hostile
377 2013-07-09 09:29:16 <TD> i've published a bitcoin address i can use for message signing via a DKIM signed email. so that establishes a trust chain
378 2013-07-09 09:29:23 <warren> I might be more paranoid than most, but if we're *coin devs, aren't we supposed to be paranoid for user security?
379 2013-07-09 09:29:38 Transisto has joined
380 2013-07-09 09:29:45 <xeroc> warren: stay paranoid .. cant hurt ..
381 2013-07-09 09:30:05 <TD> paranoia is good, i'm just not convinced GPG is the most usable approach. if you have an old key with some counter-signers then it works fine, but i don't
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445 2013-07-09 09:51:28 <warren> That was a huge netsplit. It was like the Rapture happened, and I was one of the only remaining on Earth.
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452 2013-07-09 09:53:11 <xeroc> ah .. and i was wondering why noone is writing anylonger .. none of my channels ..
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454 2013-07-09 09:53:30 <xeroc> maybe renable quit messages etc. ...
455 2013-07-09 09:54:09 <TD> warren: if freenode is heaven then i'm going to go start sinning right now!
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473 2013-07-09 10:14:12 <warren> TD: =)
474 2013-07-09 10:14:43 <warren> TD: any idea where the gitian sigs are sent? I don't see it anywhere
475 2013-07-09 10:15:11 <TD> they seem to be just compared ad-hoc by the guys who do it, i think
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477 2013-07-09 10:15:39 <warren> uh...
478 2013-07-09 10:15:46 <warren> I was told they were put into pull requests
479 2013-07-09 10:15:50 <warren> to where?
480 2013-07-09 10:16:26 <TD> then i imagine what you were told is correct
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483 2013-07-09 10:19:14 <warren> but to where?
484 2013-07-09 10:19:24 <gdbz> /dev/null
485 2013-07-09 10:21:00 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs ?
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487 2013-07-09 10:21:24 <gdbz> You can specify an output right?
488 2013-07-09 10:21:24 <BlueMatt> warren, TD ^
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490 2013-07-09 10:23:10 <warren> oh!
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495 2013-07-09 10:35:37 <warren> BlueMatt: it's worrisome that top bitcoin devs don't participate or even know where it is...
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497 2013-07-09 10:35:51 <warren> BlueMatt: and we really need more than 3 sigs ...
498 2013-07-09 10:36:10 <warren> BlueMatt: there is no excuse for dozens of end-users to not be participating. ANYBODY can do it.
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504 2013-07-09 11:02:38 <TheSeven> is there any good reason why bitcoind doesn't timestamp the lines in the log file?
505 2013-07-09 11:03:30 <sipa> set -logtimestamps
506 2013-07-09 11:04:45 <TD> is there a reason? yes, satoshi was paranoid. is it a good reason? no probably not
507 2013-07-09 11:04:58 <TD> given that the NSA can probably track tx propagation anyway ....
508 2013-07-09 11:05:09 <TheSeven> so no mentionable performance hit / DoS vector or anything like that?
509 2013-07-09 11:05:19 <TD> no
510 2013-07-09 11:05:31 <TD> he was worried about someone collecting logs and finding the origin of a tx by looking at precise timestamps
511 2013-07-09 11:05:46 <TD> the only entity that could collect such logs is a government, and thanks to Snowden, we know we're 0wned by them anyway
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513 2013-07-09 11:05:52 <TD> imho we should enable timestamps by default
514 2013-07-09 11:06:28 <TheSeven> ok, so this means that I can enable them to track down latency issues of my pool server at least ;)
515 2013-07-09 11:06:48 <TD> indeed
516 2013-07-09 11:08:35 <warren> +1 timestamps by default
517 2013-07-09 11:10:12 <nsh> +2.7
518 2013-07-09 11:10:27 <BlueMatt> warren: yes...why do you think I complain about it from time to time?
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520 2013-07-09 11:13:59 <sipa> TD: in satoshitime there was no timestamp at all, afaik
521 2013-07-09 11:14:51 <sipa> anyway, i'm in favor of timestamps by default - i always enable them myself too anyway
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527 2013-07-09 11:19:18 <TD> sipa: i'm pretty sure i recall some remark like that from him
528 2013-07-09 11:19:21 <TD> maybe it was second hand
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531 2013-07-09 11:23:46 <sipa> maybe satoshi didn't want timestampos, and when they were later added they were disabled by default because of satoshi's older concern
532 2013-07-09 11:24:20 <TD> could be
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578 2013-07-09 13:22:14 <jgarzik> mornin'
579 2013-07-09 13:22:32 <TD> good morning!
580 2013-07-09 13:22:36 <TD> how are you today?
581 2013-07-09 13:23:12 <jgarzik> sipa, Was looking at the leveldb Sync yesterday, trying to figure out if there is a window during network sync when OSX might suspend/hard resume and cause corruption
582 2013-07-09 13:23:21 <jgarzik> TD, sleepy! but ready to code!
583 2013-07-09 13:23:37 <jgarzik> TD, have you see the identity spec? it is similar to anonymous passports
584 2013-07-09 13:24:26 <sipa> jgarzik: there should only be one case that causes problems, afaik, that is duting initial sync when we write block index entries without syncung block files
585 2013-07-09 13:24:35 <sipa> jgarzik: from bitcoin's side
586 2013-07-09 13:24:43 <TD> identity spec? no, where is that
587 2013-07-09 13:24:44 <sipa> but that is not the problem we observe
588 2013-07-09 13:25:02 <sipa> *during
589 2013-07-09 13:25:10 <sipa> *syncing
590 2013-07-09 13:25:34 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
591 2013-07-09 13:25:35 <jgarzik> TD, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1 There is a non-sacrifice, disposable identity not listed there (about to be added)
592 2013-07-09 13:26:12 <jgarzik> sipa, is it possible for IsInitialBlockDownload==true, if a node has been online for a couple weeks, then starts sync'ing?
593 2013-07-09 13:26:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, we do get IsInitialBlockDownload in other cases⦠we should probably rename that so we stop confusing it for the initial download.
594 2013-07-09 13:26:43 <jgarzik> er
595 2013-07-09 13:26:47 <jgarzik> OFFLINE, not online
596 2013-07-09 13:26:57 <gmaxwell> s/weeks/one day/
597 2013-07-09 13:27:07 <jgarzik> interesting
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599 2013-07-09 13:27:17 <sipa> jgarzik: yes
600 2013-07-09 13:27:22 <gmaxwell> IIRC being off for over 24 hours then getting a bunch of blocks fast is sufficient.
601 2013-07-09 13:27:44 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah, but what it sounds like to me is
602 2013-07-09 13:28:06 <Diablo-D3> if downloading has EVER completed in the past
603 2013-07-09 13:28:09 <gmaxwell> But I _thought_ that lack of sync would have only caused it to lose the most recently written data, not require a reindex. Might be something to test.
604 2013-07-09 13:28:12 <Diablo-D3> IsInitialBlockDownload must be false
605 2013-07-09 13:28:43 <gmaxwell> Also wouldn't quite explain why we pretty much don't seem to see this corruption on Linux.
606 2013-07-09 13:28:48 <sipa> jgarzik: but the code should be designed like: no utxo data is written before syncing the block index, and no block index is written without syncing the block files
607 2013-07-09 13:29:01 <sipa> only the last condition is violated during ibd
608 2013-07-09 13:29:10 <TD> jgarzik: are you planning to implement it? i guess the announce/commit thing is slightly more secure, but it requires every miner to upgrade, whereas spending to only fees requires no such upgrades.
609 2013-07-09 13:29:14 <Diablo-D3> also
610 2013-07-09 13:29:14 <Diablo-D3> small question
611 2013-07-09 13:29:23 <Diablo-D3> why is IsInitialBlockDownload special cased anyhow?
612 2013-07-09 13:29:33 <jgarzik> TD, yes
613 2013-07-09 13:29:34 <TD> speed
614 2013-07-09 13:29:49 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, don't want to fsync(2) for every block
615 2013-07-09 13:29:50 <TD> jgarzik: interesting. i love the concept, but i was hoping you were gonna do real-time network metrics first :-)
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617 2013-07-09 13:29:56 <TD> jgarzik: what is bitpays interest in that? or is it your own thing
618 2013-07-09 13:30:13 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: then special case it differently
619 2013-07-09 13:30:19 <Diablo-D3> have all disk IO in a different thread
620 2013-07-09 13:30:30 <Diablo-D3> use a message queue to send complete blocks to the IO thread
621 2013-07-09 13:30:39 <Diablo-D3> and then fsync after each block
622 2013-07-09 13:30:44 <jgarzik> TD, decentralized identity has implication for payments in decentralized markets. e.g. imagine a decentralized ebay
623 2013-07-09 13:31:05 <jgarzik> TD, the metrics things is blocked on legal :(
624 2013-07-09 13:31:12 <TD> sure, you don't have to sell me on the concept, but it seems like for bitpays current business it's not that relevant
625 2013-07-09 13:31:14 <TD> legal? huh?
626 2013-07-09 13:31:19 <TD> wtf?
627 2013-07-09 13:31:33 <jgarzik> TD, gotta set up a non-profit to avoid paying 30% tax on all donations
628 2013-07-09 13:31:33 <Diablo-D3> actually no
629 2013-07-09 13:31:44 <Diablo-D3> fsync after each complete flush of the queue
630 2013-07-09 13:31:51 <Diablo-D3> so you get your fast behavior in ALL situations that warrant it
631 2013-07-09 13:31:51 <sipa> Diablo-D3: that's the intention yes
632 2013-07-09 13:31:53 <TD> jgarzik: donations? for a network metrics site?
633 2013-07-09 13:32:08 <TD> jgarzik: you could always just write the code and open source it, then the Foundation can run it
634 2013-07-09 13:32:08 <jgarzik> TD, for renting all the dedicated servers yes
635 2013-07-09 13:32:11 <Diablo-D3> actually no, that might still corrupt the db
636 2013-07-09 13:32:21 <Diablo-D3> also, how is this corrupting the db? doesnt leveldb use a write log?
637 2013-07-09 13:32:22 <sipa> Diablo-D3: you need strict ordering of operations
638 2013-07-09 13:32:29 <TD> although i'd hope we could get some basic useful metrics without any expensive overheads
639 2013-07-09 13:32:33 <jgarzik> TD, would be nice, but Foundation seems a bit of a disorganized mess ATM
640 2013-07-09 13:32:34 <sipa> Diablo-D3: the corruptions we're seeing don't have anything to do with this
641 2013-07-09 13:32:38 <jgarzik> TD, indeed
642 2013-07-09 13:32:42 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin should be smart enough to say "hey, I dont have the uxto for this block in the past, something is missing, lets go download it"
643 2013-07-09 13:32:44 <Diablo-D3> sipa: oh
644 2013-07-09 13:32:48 gritball has joined
645 2013-07-09 13:32:52 <TD> like, one cheap VPS should be enough to do things like track block and tx propagation times
646 2013-07-09 13:33:23 t7 has joined
647 2013-07-09 13:33:31 <sipa> Diablo-D3: we already strictly order operations, except for syncing block data during IBD
648 2013-07-09 13:33:48 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so then strictly order operations during IBO
649 2013-07-09 13:33:55 <Diablo-D3> and stop special casing IBO
650 2013-07-09 13:33:59 <sipa> that would kill performance
651 2013-07-09 13:34:04 <sipa> by a factor 10 or so
652 2013-07-09 13:34:06 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
653 2013-07-09 13:34:10 <sipa> syncing after every block
654 2013-07-09 13:34:20 <Diablo-D3> would it still kill performance using message passing + IO thread?
655 2013-07-09 13:34:26 <sipa> *sigh*
656 2013-07-09 13:34:28 <sipa> of course not
657 2013-07-09 13:34:31 <jgarzik> **sigh**
658 2013-07-09 13:34:39 <sipa> that's why i say that is the intention
659 2013-07-09 13:34:44 <sipa> but it's not as simple
660 2013-07-09 13:35:01 <Diablo-D3> yeah, its difficult to do in c++, I kinda feel sorry for you guys
661 2013-07-09 13:35:16 <sipa> because if you start doing block writinh asynchronously in a background thread
662 2013-07-09 13:35:22 <sipa> all writing has to happen from that thread
663 2013-07-09 13:35:29 <sipa> also the leveldb writes
664 2013-07-09 13:35:32 <Diablo-D3> all reading AND writing
665 2013-07-09 13:35:37 <sipa> not reading
666 2013-07-09 13:35:43 <Diablo-D3> why not reading?
667 2013-07-09 13:35:48 <sipa> we never read uncommitted data anyway
668 2013-07-09 13:35:54 <sipa> as that is cached
669 2013-07-09 13:35:54 <Diablo-D3> ahh
670 2013-07-09 13:36:03 <Diablo-D3> and leveldb is multiple reader safe?
671 2013-07-09 13:36:18 <sipa> yes, but that's not relevant
672 2013-07-09 13:36:28 gritball_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
673 2013-07-09 13:36:56 <sipa> the blockchain data is protected by a (big fat) mutex, and reads/writes are only during while holding that mutex
674 2013-07-09 13:37:10 <Diablo-D3> ahh
675 2013-07-09 13:37:18 <sipa> writes can safely move to a background thread
676 2013-07-09 13:37:22 <Diablo-D3> but you could actually make your job much easier then
677 2013-07-09 13:37:23 <sipa> but *all* writes need to move then
678 2013-07-09 13:37:34 <Diablo-D3> move all writes AND reads to that IO thread
679 2013-07-09 13:37:38 <sipa> ...
680 2013-07-09 13:37:46 <sipa> then what's the point of moving it?
681 2013-07-09 13:37:57 <Diablo-D3> and have more than one mutex (one for each queue), and the IO thread doesnt mutex itself against itself
682 2013-07-09 13:38:00 PhantomSpark has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
683 2013-07-09 13:38:12 <Diablo-D3> so you dont pass mutexes around, you async message the IO thread
684 2013-07-09 13:38:25 <sipa> feel free to send a pull request
685 2013-07-09 13:38:51 <Diablo-D3> dude, if I send pull request, its because I've gotten rid of the entirety of the c++ code and rewrote it in erlang
686 2013-07-09 13:39:00 <sipa> lol
687 2013-07-09 13:39:12 <sipa> go ahead
688 2013-07-09 13:39:30 <Diablo-D3> Ive been considering it for TrolLCoin :<
689 2013-07-09 13:40:23 JZavala has joined
690 2013-07-09 13:41:11 PhantomSpark has joined
691 2013-07-09 13:44:13 mikola has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
692 2013-07-09 13:45:32 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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695 2013-07-09 13:49:34 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
696 2013-07-09 13:49:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, I think for the bitcoin community to be healthy, we need one alt coin that DOESNT fork the bitcoin code base
697 2013-07-09 13:51:56 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
698 2013-07-09 13:52:02 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
699 2013-07-09 13:53:11 <Zoop_> bitcoin-qt now creates the chainblock inside ../blocks ?
700 2013-07-09 13:53:32 <Zoop_> *blockchain
701 2013-07-09 13:55:00 <kinlo> yes, that has been changed with 0.8
702 2013-07-09 13:56:12 <Zoop_> weird, when i resumed the blockchain transfer
703 2013-07-09 13:56:26 <Zoop_> it was only 5K blocks behind
704 2013-07-09 13:56:44 <Zoop_> but made an entire new blockchain inside /blocks
705 2013-07-09 13:57:03 <Zoop_> made a copy from the existing blockchain?
706 2013-07-09 13:57:38 GordonG3kko has joined
707 2013-07-09 13:57:46 <Zoop_> i have junctions for the blockchain, ended up with 2 blockchains and my pc farted
708 2013-07-09 13:57:52 <Zoop_> :|
709 2013-07-09 13:58:03 <Zoop_> i'll have to make new junctions and shit
710 2013-07-09 13:58:19 jaekwon1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
711 2013-07-09 13:58:41 <sipa> Zoop_: see doc/files.txt
712 2013-07-09 13:58:51 <Zoop_> will do
713 2013-07-09 13:58:55 patcon has joined
714 2013-07-09 13:59:17 <Zoop_> after i have decent disk space so my pc doesn't freeze every 15 sec
715 2013-07-09 13:59:19 <Zoop_> :\
716 2013-07-09 14:01:10 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
717 2013-07-09 14:01:37 patcon_ has joined
718 2013-07-09 14:04:18 patcon__ has joined
719 2013-07-09 14:04:18 <Zoop_> i don't see any docs/files.txt sipa
720 2013-07-09 14:04:52 patcon has quit (Read error: No route to host)
721 2013-07-09 14:05:37 <Zoop_> only /daemon and /src
722 2013-07-09 14:06:20 <BlueMatt> its in src/
723 2013-07-09 14:06:25 <BlueMatt> src/docs/...
724 2013-07-09 14:06:29 patcon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
725 2013-07-09 14:07:09 <Zoop_> nop
726 2013-07-09 14:07:10 Jojuelo has joined
727 2013-07-09 14:08:39 <BlueMatt> src/doc/...
728 2013-07-09 14:10:20 <Zoop_> cryptopp, json, obj, xpm, obj-test, qt, leveldb and test
729 2013-07-09 14:10:25 <Zoop_> are the only folders
730 2013-07-09 14:10:59 <sipa> doc/files.txt
731 2013-07-09 14:11:02 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.8.3/doc/files.txt
732 2013-07-09 14:11:06 <sipa> not inside src
733 2013-07-09 14:11:16 thrasher` has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
734 2013-07-09 14:11:26 <BlueMatt> I dunno what you downloaded, but in any of the distributed zips/tars, there is an src/doc/files.txt
735 2013-07-09 14:12:09 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
736 2013-07-09 14:12:10 <Zoop_> i would tell you the version, but it doesn't open due to lack of disk space
737 2013-07-09 14:12:23 <BlueMatt> filename?
738 2013-07-09 14:12:53 datagutt has joined
739 2013-07-09 14:12:56 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
740 2013-07-09 14:13:44 patcon__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
741 2013-07-09 14:13:55 <gmaxwell> Zoop_: where did you get it from?
742 2013-07-09 14:14:15 <Zoop_> it's the official bitcoin
743 2013-07-09 14:14:17 <Zoop_> relax
744 2013-07-09 14:14:28 <Zoop_> must be some beta version
745 2013-07-09 14:14:37 <BlueMatt> no...its not
746 2013-07-09 14:14:39 <BlueMatt> what is the filename?
747 2013-07-09 14:14:48 <Zoop_> what filename?
748 2013-07-09 14:15:04 <BlueMatt> what did you download/install?
749 2013-07-09 14:15:04 yubrew has joined
750 2013-07-09 14:15:06 <gmaxwell> Zoop_: where did you get it from? Our releases include the file being mentioned.
751 2013-07-09 14:15:16 <BlueMatt> the filename of the downloaded thing
752 2013-07-09 14:15:29 <Zoop_> i installed it ages ago
753 2013-07-09 14:15:36 <Zoop_> and update it
754 2013-07-09 14:15:39 <Zoop_> that's all
755 2013-07-09 14:15:54 <BlueMatt> yes...where did you download the update from?
756 2013-07-09 14:15:58 <BlueMatt> and what was the filename?
757 2013-07-09 14:16:05 <Zoop_> the official website
758 2013-07-09 14:16:11 <BlueMatt> windows/mac/linux?
759 2013-07-09 14:16:16 <Zoop_> win
760 2013-07-09 14:16:26 <BlueMatt> exe or zip?
761 2013-07-09 14:16:28 normanrichards has joined
762 2013-07-09 14:16:41 <Zoop_> Bitcoin 0.8.1 BETA
763 2013-07-09 14:16:46 <Zoop_> it's the beta
764 2013-07-09 14:16:55 <BlueMatt> zip or exe?
765 2013-07-09 14:17:02 <Zoop_> probably why it doesn't have the final docs
766 2013-07-09 14:17:06 <Zoop_> exe, most likely
767 2013-07-09 14:17:10 <BlueMatt> no, its the final
768 2013-07-09 14:17:15 <BlueMatt> every released version since 0.1 is BETA
769 2013-07-09 14:17:20 Best has joined
770 2013-07-09 14:18:26 <Zoop_> i deleted the installer
771 2013-07-09 14:18:39 <Zoop_> can't check md5 sums
772 2013-07-09 14:19:02 <Zoop_> but i downloaded it from the official website
773 2013-07-09 14:19:41 Best has quit (Client Quit)
774 2013-07-09 14:20:58 <BlueMatt> arg, well I dont have wine to try the setup exe, but the zip has doc in it, and setup should too (otherwise its a bug)
775 2013-07-09 14:23:00 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2819
776 2013-07-09 14:23:31 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
777 2013-07-09 14:23:41 jaekwon has joined
778 2013-07-09 14:24:31 <Zoop_> so it's an actual bug?
779 2013-07-09 14:25:17 <sipa> just read the document online
780 2013-07-09 14:25:42 <Zoop_> i did
781 2013-07-09 14:25:45 <Zoop_> ty
782 2013-07-09 14:25:52 thrasher` has joined
783 2013-07-09 14:25:53 datagutt has joined
784 2013-07-09 14:26:11 Namworld has joined
785 2013-07-09 14:26:19 <BlueMatt> Zoop_: yea, just checked the installer source, it should include all files like the zips do, but it todnes
786 2013-07-09 14:26:22 <BlueMatt> doesnt*
787 2013-07-09 14:26:39 <Zoop_> well, glad i helped
788 2013-07-09 14:26:42 <Zoop_> ...somehow
789 2013-07-09 14:27:17 hsmiths has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
790 2013-07-09 14:27:17 kwikness has joined
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792 2013-07-09 14:27:48 <jgarzik> <TD> jgarzik: are you planning to implement it? i guess the announce/commit thing is slightly more secure, but it requires every miner to upgrade, whereas spending to only fees requires no such upgrades.
793 2013-07-09 14:27:55 <jgarzik> TD, no miner upgrades are required
794 2013-07-09 14:28:11 <jgarzik> TD, but in either case, the transactions will not get relayed due to being non-standard
795 2013-07-09 14:28:26 <jgarzik> TD, all that's required is the well known time stamping transaction tempalte
796 2013-07-09 14:28:29 <jgarzik> *template
797 2013-07-09 14:29:05 hsmiths has joined
798 2013-07-09 14:30:55 patcon has joined
799 2013-07-09 14:31:25 <TD> jgarzik: i thought the point of the "anyone can spend" output is that miners are supposed to take it automatically when they put the tx into the block
800 2013-07-09 14:31:33 <TD> or rather, when it becomes final
801 2013-07-09 14:31:48 <TD> i mean, yes, it can be done by some standalone app that watches for these and broadcasts
802 2013-07-09 14:31:54 <TD> but that seems likely to result in tons of double spends
803 2013-07-09 14:32:12 <jgarzik> TD, economic motivations point in that direction, but it seems unlikely that miners will update their code initially just for this system
804 2013-07-09 14:32:37 <TD> i'd assume you'd integrate it into bitcoin-qt
805 2013-07-09 14:32:39 <jgarzik> TD, in any case, it's a problem that resolves itself
806 2013-07-09 14:33:05 <TD> i suppose so
807 2013-07-09 14:33:09 <TD> as long as someone runs the app ...
808 2013-07-09 14:34:18 <jgarzik> it's not a problem for identity protocol or network, if people fail to spend anyone-can-spend transactions really ;p
809 2013-07-09 14:34:33 <jgarzik> the main requirement is announcing, and -having the chance to spend- equally
810 2013-07-09 14:36:22 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
811 2013-07-09 14:38:17 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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831 2013-07-09 14:51:40 <Eliel> interesting, I hadn't realized that making anyone-can-spend transaction ends up being effectively the same as making a regular transaction with a large fee.
832 2013-07-09 14:51:59 kfreds has joined
833 2013-07-09 14:52:00 <TD> well, today it's not
834 2013-07-09 14:52:02 kfreds_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
835 2013-07-09 14:52:13 rlifchitz has joined
836 2013-07-09 14:52:16 <TD> but with the magic software running and watching the chain, the theory is it prevents you collaborating with a miner (or being one) to pay the fee back to yurself
837 2013-07-09 14:52:22 <TD> it's a smart idea, but it bloats the blockchain a bit
838 2013-07-09 14:52:41 <TD> also it slows things down i guess. i'm thinking the bloat is a price worth paying for the additional guarantees.
839 2013-07-09 14:52:57 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
840 2013-07-09 14:53:19 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
841 2013-07-09 14:53:38 <handle> hmm, I wonder what tricks could be made with the script
842 2013-07-09 14:54:16 nanotube has quit (Excess Flood)
843 2013-07-09 14:55:14 stalled has joined
844 2013-07-09 14:56:37 Eiii has joined
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846 2013-07-09 14:56:37 Eiii has joined
847 2013-07-09 14:57:47 <TD> oh dear: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252872.0
848 2013-07-09 15:00:13 <CodeShark> why the hell would anyone keep 100BTC in a blockchain.info wallet?!??!?!
849 2013-07-09 15:00:46 <jgarzik> TD, I get an email every week along those lines
850 2013-07-09 15:01:02 <helo> their momma didn't teach them better
851 2013-07-09 15:01:04 <jgarzik> TD, "I lost my password, SURELY you bitcoin devs have a backdoor to get my coins back"
852 2013-07-09 15:01:08 <TD> :(
853 2013-07-09 15:01:29 <MCM-Mike> could someone tell this poor guy/troll that he should get help from a trusted person - perhaps they can recover it -
854 2013-07-09 15:01:41 <jgarzik> Don't know whether to laugh or cry
855 2013-07-09 15:01:46 <TD> i think the first hypnotist to start work in the bitcoin community will make a lot of money
856 2013-07-09 15:02:09 nanotube has joined
857 2013-07-09 15:02:13 <MCM-Mike> hehe, TD :)
858 2013-07-09 15:02:35 * helo guesses that the AES password is the same as the blockchain.info password
859 2013-07-09 15:02:38 <gmaxwell> hm. that would explain pirate's success.. "You are feeling very sleepy and sending me all your coins"
860 2013-07-09 15:03:14 <gmaxwell> helo: yes, someone could make a very fast cracking tool that used those filesâ¦
861 2013-07-09 15:06:33 asuk has joined
862 2013-07-09 15:06:59 <walch> https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet/blob/39744c4588426eb004f3d4853abd5f3c2d41929f/wallet.js#L65
863 2013-07-09 15:07:19 skeledrew has joined
864 2013-07-09 15:07:30 skeledrew1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
865 2013-07-09 15:07:40 <walch> not really my area, but isn't 10 iterations of PBKDF2 a little on the low side?
866 2013-07-09 15:08:08 <TD> http://thegenesisblock.com/significant-merchant-improvements-planned-for-bitcoin-v0-9/
867 2013-07-09 15:08:33 <gmaxwell> walch: yes, pointlessly low.
868 2013-07-09 15:09:07 <walch> gmaxwell: I thought so. I remembered reading other documents that had 10,000, 100,000 or more.
869 2013-07-09 15:09:07 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
870 2013-07-09 15:09:54 <gmaxwell> walch: yea, for the reference client wallet encryption we have a hard minimum of 25,000â but scale to the users cpu speed and typically have well over 100k. (it targets 100ms worth)
871 2013-07-09 15:10:17 skeledrew has joined
872 2013-07-09 15:11:01 <gmaxwell> (well to be fair, no amount is _pointless_ it's a linear slowdown, bug against fast hashes and block ciphers, a factor of only 10x doesn't do much to inhibit attacks)
873 2013-07-09 15:11:46 <gmaxwell> uh.
874 2013-07-09 15:11:50 <gmaxwell> looking at that code
875 2013-07-09 15:11:57 <gmaxwell> is the 'salt' the hash of the password?
876 2013-07-09 15:12:05 * gmaxwell facepalm incoming
877 2013-07-09 15:14:38 <helo> it appears someone knows what they're doing!
878 2013-07-09 15:15:24 <TD> lol. in fairness, i doubt any other site uses that, so it doesn't help someone who wants to build a rainbow table usable across sites :)
879 2013-07-09 15:15:49 JZavala has joined
880 2013-07-09 15:15:51 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, well point, it's not like by far the largest bitcoin wallet provider is a target anyone would care about...
881 2013-07-09 15:15:54 <gmaxwell> :P
882 2013-07-09 15:16:41 <TD> the point of the salt is to stop you building a rainbow table usable across multiple sites, right? so if your salting strategy is unique then you're good. the best way to make it unique is to use some random data as a salt, but picking a really uniquely dumb strategy also works :)
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885 2013-07-09 15:17:41 <petertodd> TD: that's one use of salt... but really it's to prevent building a rainbow table period across any collection of passwords
886 2013-07-09 15:18:02 <petertodd> TD: I'm not impressed with "slightly better than stupid" :P
887 2013-07-09 15:18:17 <walch> I can't really comment on their security too much, but they did pick an awfully confusing name for their service. I've seen quite a few times where people refer to blockchain.info as "on the blockchain"; it's just asking for trouble.
888 2013-07-09 15:18:18 <helo> so if salt = f(password), then when brute-forcing you don't have to iterate through all of the possible salts for each pw guess?
889 2013-07-09 15:18:47 <handle> if you have a salt dependent on the password, or a site-wide salt, then someone only needs to generate the hash once per password
890 2013-07-09 15:18:52 Belkaar has joined
891 2013-07-09 15:18:55 <TD> yes that was a rather unfortunate naming choice
892 2013-07-09 15:18:56 <petertodd> helo: exactly, because there is only one salt... really they just invented a different hashing algorithm
893 2013-07-09 15:18:56 <handle> then they can go through the entire db and just compare
894 2013-07-09 15:19:05 <handle> which is much faster than hashing for each user
895 2013-07-09 15:20:19 <TD> yes, true. most password crackers these days don't seem to bother with rainbow tables anyway. it's faster to calculate it all online than try to manage the dataset
896 2013-07-09 15:20:56 <helo> good news for err0r, i guess
897 2013-07-09 15:21:09 [\\\] has joined
898 2013-07-09 15:21:27 <petertodd> jgarzik, TD: keep in mind one nice thing about anyone-can-spend is that you can sometimes integrate spending of the sacrifices into the software that makes the sacrifices, so the userbase of that software is helping keep the sacrifice honest
899 2013-07-09 15:21:28 <TD> anyway, the whole idea of trying to do wallet encryption in an environment far slower than what any attacker has is kind of weak anyway.
900 2013-07-09 15:21:53 <gmaxwell> Well I didn't actually audit itâ but at a glance it looks like the 'salt' is just a hash of the password, so its not a salt in the unix password file sense. Though it does make the hash unique to the service.
901 2013-07-09 15:22:24 <TD> right
902 2013-07-09 15:23:00 <TD> i wonder if V8 is capable of compiling a javascript SHA256 or scrypt down to something optimal code these days, given the various strongly typed data extensions that exist
903 2013-07-09 15:23:28 <gmaxwell> but if so it means that an attacker with a copy of their database gets a factor of 300000 or whatever speedup from work sharing....
904 2013-07-09 15:24:07 <gmaxwell> TD: even without a bunch of type annotations even a couple thousand iterations wasn't _that_ bad. jrmithdobbs and sipa have both had up KDF example code that did thousands of iterations.
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907 2013-07-09 15:27:27 <jgarzik> TD, ooh! strongly typed data extensions? I must google for that...
908 2013-07-09 15:27:34 <TD> they were introduced for WebGL
909 2013-07-09 15:27:49 <TD> turns out trying to do fast 3D in a dynamically typed language is a waste of time. so they added strongly typed arrays
910 2013-07-09 15:27:56 <TD> it isn't a general extension that makes the whole language strongly typed
911 2013-07-09 15:28:42 <jgarzik> ah
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923 2013-07-09 15:35:22 <petertodd> warren: my thinking for using child-pays-for-parent to get zero-fee tx's relayed was to extend the network protocol with the ability to tell your peers about the priority (generally profit from fees) of a transaction when they announce a new inventory item.
924 2013-07-09 15:36:17 <petertodd> warren: The peer would decide if the inventory item was sufficiently high priority and if so retrieve it and it's parent transactions recursively.
925 2013-07-09 15:37:15 <petertodd> warren: some edge cases to consider though: if a peer keeps on wasting your time with transactions that don't turn out to be useful for instance, although peers can do that already to a degree.
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927 2013-07-09 15:38:02 <petertodd> warren: Of course the node (usually merchant) needs to get the transaction in the first place, and I think the payment protocol is the right way to do that rather than relying on relaying low or zero fee txs across the whole network.
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931 2013-07-09 15:39:13 <Zoop_> well
932 2013-07-09 15:39:25 <petertodd> brb
933 2013-07-09 15:39:37 <Zoop_> my bitcoin-qt hated my new /blocks folder junction
934 2013-07-09 15:39:46 <Zoop_> didn't start up
935 2013-07-09 15:39:49 <Zoop_> and crashed
936 2013-07-09 15:40:08 <Zoop_> made a junction for every single file in /blocks
937 2013-07-09 15:40:13 <Zoop_> loads
938 2013-07-09 15:40:34 <Zoop_> but now wants to redownload the entire blockchain
939 2013-07-09 15:40:38 <Zoop_> FML
940 2013-07-09 15:41:35 <gmaxwell> 'junction'?
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942 2013-07-09 15:42:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: to make JS 'typed' in addition to the typed arrays you can add annotations to statements that function as casts.
943 2013-07-09 15:42:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: "bind mount"
944 2013-07-09 15:42:39 <Zoop_> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896768.aspx
945 2013-07-09 15:42:44 <Zoop_> ^
946 2013-07-09 15:42:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: e.g. a = b|0 + c|0 ... or-ing with floats isn't sensible, ... SO.
947 2013-07-09 15:42:58 <sipa> Zoop_: yes we use hardlinks to reuse the old block files in the new database layout
948 2013-07-09 15:43:15 <Zoop_> can't even tell where is he storing the new blockchain
949 2013-07-09 15:43:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, ideally I want typing to inform optimization decisions inside v8, but that sounds overly optimistic
950 2013-07-09 15:43:28 <jgarzik> sipa, bind mounts are awesome. Al Viro imported those from Plan 9.
951 2013-07-09 15:43:37 <Zoop_> sipa, i can't do anything then?
952 2013-07-09 15:43:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thats what those annotations do, and they do actually work.
953 2013-07-09 15:43:48 <sipa> Zoop_: first of all, what is the problem?
954 2013-07-09 15:43:57 <jgarzik> nice
955 2013-07-09 15:44:06 <Zoop_> i don't have space in my OS drive
956 2013-07-09 15:44:09 normanrichards has joined
957 2013-07-09 15:44:15 <sipa> Zoop_: then make some space first
958 2013-07-09 15:44:19 <Zoop_> need to put blockchain in another drive
959 2013-07-09 15:44:58 <sipa> ok
960 2013-07-09 15:45:39 <Zoop_> it should be an option really
961 2013-07-09 15:45:46 <Zoop_> store blockchain in:
962 2013-07-09 15:45:48 <sipa> being worked on for 0.9
963 2013-07-09 15:45:55 <Zoop_> tyvm
964 2013-07-09 15:46:20 <jgarzik> It's tempting to bang out that REST query interface for the blockchain
965 2013-07-09 15:46:25 <jgarzik> for bitcoind
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974 2013-07-09 16:02:40 <gmaxwell> that unsalted ten iterations...
975 2013-07-09 16:02:56 <gmaxwell> 08:34 < mintmoney> gmaxwell: go 2 blockchain.info and start a new wallet, then start typing in a password n it updates the div 4 password strength with how many years it should take to crack
976 2013-07-09 16:03:12 <gmaxwell> apparently it tells you that a 12 character string will take 408 thousand years to crack.
977 2013-07-09 16:03:29 <imton_> sipa: how are you? I was wondering if could be easily added the amount of each vin for your searchrawtransactions RPC
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981 2013-07-09 16:04:26 <walch> gmaxwell: "A password 10 characters in length will take over 1000 years to decrypt."
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985 2013-07-09 16:05:20 <imton> sipa: I am back, don't know if you replied me :s
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990 2013-07-09 16:07:45 <imton> sipa: could be easily added the amount/value of each vin for your searchrawtransactions RPC?
991 2013-07-09 16:08:09 polrpaul has quit (Quit: Page closed)
992 2013-07-09 16:08:38 <gmaxwell> imton: you can run gettxout
993 2013-07-09 16:10:14 <TheSeven> is there any technical reason for windows builds being 32 bit only?
994 2013-07-09 16:10:29 daybyter has joined
995 2013-07-09 16:10:36 <TheSeven> (64 bit builds being useless doesn't count, I'm looking for real blockers)
996 2013-07-09 16:10:43 handle has joined
997 2013-07-09 16:10:45 <kinlo> I guess there is no true 64 bit windows, so a 32 bit would run everywhere :)
998 2013-07-09 16:11:00 <BlueMatt> TheSeven: mingw version used in gitian is out-of-date, it just needs someone to update it
999 2013-07-09 16:11:07 <BlueMatt> but because it doesnt matter, no one has bothered to do so
1000 2013-07-09 16:11:20 <TheSeven> so there aren't any known 64bit specific issues?
1001 2013-07-09 16:11:34 <BlueMatt> dont know that anyone has actually ever compiled bitcoin for win64
1002 2013-07-09 16:13:11 <imton> gmaxwell: that's awesome!
1003 2013-07-09 16:13:37 <imton> gmaxwell: what's the diff between doing that and getrawtransaction? performance?
1004 2013-07-09 16:13:51 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: under tested and gratitiously incompatible with 32 bit systems, otherwise? I don't think so.
1005 2013-07-09 16:14:09 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: after we merge sipa's ecdsa code there will be a good reason to worry about it.
1006 2013-07-09 16:14:18 <gmaxwell> (as the 64 bit code is _much_ faster than the 32 bit stuff.
1007 2013-07-09 16:14:19 <gmaxwell> )
1008 2013-07-09 16:14:36 <TheSeven> I'm wondering if it makes sense for accelerating bignum stuff in general
1009 2013-07-09 16:14:45 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: it won't matter with the current code.
1010 2013-07-09 16:14:56 <TheSeven> it might matter for primecoin :)
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1042 2013-07-09 17:08:24 <petertodd> jgarzik: REST would have been a better choice from the beginning; jsonrpc isn't all that popular
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1053 2013-07-09 17:18:52 <jgarzik> petertodd, indeed
1054 2013-07-09 17:19:05 <jgarzik> petertodd, many generic JSON-RPC google searches result in bitcoin-related links, I find
1055 2013-07-09 17:19:08 patcon has joined
1056 2013-07-09 17:20:41 <petertodd> jgarzik: Any reason why bitcoind rpc couldn't support both json-rpc and REST? (I'm assuming a transition period) I don't think the protocols are incompatible on the http level.
1057 2013-07-09 17:23:26 roconnor has joined
1058 2013-07-09 17:24:09 <jgarzik> petertodd, no need for a transition. It can be done right now. commit 9f4976afe2568a6dd4a4026292e91697bedda4b6
1059 2013-07-09 17:25:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: Ah cool, so we can put it under /rest/
1060 2013-07-09 17:25:50 <jgarzik> petertodd, or somesuch. Yes.
1061 2013-07-09 17:26:19 <jgarzik> petertodd, Ideally some versioned URL, /api/v1/...
1062 2013-07-09 17:26:19 <petertodd> jgarzik: Code-wise should be just a bunch of relatively easy stuff so that jsonrpc and rest have the same parameter definition style and what not. Just a bunch of tedious work really.
1063 2013-07-09 17:26:30 <petertodd> jgarzik: /rest1/
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1065 2013-07-09 17:28:19 <jgarzik> petertodd, see also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1982 Add HTTP REST, wget(1)-friendly crypted key dump via GET /wallet-ckeys.json
1066 2013-07-09 17:28:43 <jgarzik> petertodd, implementation is trivial and obvious, absent bikeshedding over URL :)
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1070 2013-07-09 17:29:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: We need to define a way to avoid bikeshedding... maybe some kind of proof-of-work algorithm.
1071 2013-07-09 17:30:07 <jgarzik> lol
1072 2013-07-09 17:30:28 <jgarzik> petertodd, require all names result from hashing
1073 2013-07-09 17:30:32 <jgarzik> nothing human readable
1074 2013-07-09 17:31:08 <petertodd> jgarzik: Ha. Granted I think in this case it's acceptable if the proof requires human intelligence to verify.
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1077 2013-07-09 17:33:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, clearly it should be /api/json/0/0/1/
1078 2013-07-09 17:34:17 i2pRelay has joined
1079 2013-07-09 17:34:28 <phantomcircuit> or for added goodness
1080 2013-07-09 17:34:40 <phantomcircuit> define / as returning an xml description of the api
1081 2013-07-09 17:34:47 <phantomcircuit> and have the actual api calls use guids
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1083 2013-07-09 17:35:02 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: You should be able to pass a regex in the URL matching what versions your client can support.
1084 2013-07-09 17:35:08 <phantomcircuit> ha
1085 2013-07-09 17:35:21 ivan`_ is now known as ivan`
1086 2013-07-09 17:35:28 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: No, return a lisp program implementing a library for using the api.
1087 2013-07-09 17:35:57 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: The regex is for what version of the lisp library API you want.
1088 2013-07-09 17:36:07 <phantomcircuit> that's brilliant
1089 2013-07-09 17:36:36 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I think it's ok if we specify what version of regex with just a number though - don't wanna go all crazy with this.
1090 2013-07-09 17:37:39 <jgarzik> not lisp, forth
1091 2013-07-09 17:37:47 <jgarzik> for safety
1092 2013-07-09 17:39:18 <petertodd> jgarzik: Fair enough. Then why not extend the scripting language so we can use the same opcodes for both? It'd be easier to make scripts access stuff like random oracles if the scripting language could initite TCP/IP connections.
1093 2013-07-09 17:39:49 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1094 2013-07-09 17:39:54 <petertodd> jgarzik: You could write a transaction that can only be mined if the majority of miners can ping 8.8.8.8 for instance.
1095 2013-07-09 17:40:08 <jgarzik> OP_HTTP_URI_PLUS_REGEX is long overdue
1096 2013-07-09 17:40:27 <petertodd> jgarzik: (obviously you need static analysis to make sure the script implements non-random voting correctly)
1097 2013-07-09 17:40:56 <petertodd> Oh, and it'd be *way* easier to do cross-chain trading protocols if scripts could access even a simple arbitrary key-value storage capability shared across all transactions.
1098 2013-07-09 17:41:01 <jchp> Can we get bitcoin to support RFC 1149 as well?
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1100 2013-07-09 17:41:37 <jgarzik> I want to send a bitcoin transaction via carrier pigeon. That would be a completely awesome off-chain TX demo.
1101 2013-07-09 17:41:47 <petertodd> RFC 5514 is so much more modern that 1149
1102 2013-07-09 17:42:03 <petertodd> jgarzik: If it's a fast pigeon it doesn't even need to be off-chain
1103 2013-07-09 17:42:16 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: but its not even off chain
1104 2013-07-09 17:42:20 <Diablo-D3> because theres no such thing
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1106 2013-07-09 17:42:33 <Diablo-D3> all you're doing is inserting the tx into the chain from a physically disjoint location
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1108 2013-07-09 17:43:06 <gwillen> petertodd: better be careful, before you know it you'll get a sentient bitcoin transaction
1109 2013-07-09 17:43:10 <gwillen> and then all hell will break loose ;-)
1110 2013-07-09 17:43:11 <jchp> RFC 5514 makes me upset because I can imagine some people taking it seriously
1111 2013-07-09 17:43:39 <gwillen> jchp: someone implemented in on facebook
1112 2013-07-09 17:43:40 <gwillen> it*
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1114 2013-07-09 17:44:02 <petertodd> Hmm... you know if you could get pigeons that could travel at 765,000km/hr you could achieve world-wide blockchain over RFC 1149 support with just 10% orphan rates.
1115 2013-07-09 17:44:04 <jchp> haha
1116 2013-07-09 17:45:40 <jchp> man it'd actually be neat if someone made that bitcoin satellite
1117 2013-07-09 17:46:52 <petertodd> Conversely, maximum consensus size at 10% orphans for racing carrier pigeons is 2.7km - about enough for a very small town.
1118 2013-07-09 17:48:46 <jchp> hrm how fast are carrier pigeons
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1120 2013-07-09 17:50:33 <gmaxwell> African or European?
1121 2013-07-09 17:50:53 <gmaxwell> I suppose it depends on how big the blocks you're talking about too.
1122 2013-07-09 17:51:08 <jchp> walked right into that one
1123 2013-07-09 17:57:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: pigeons, not swallows
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1127 2013-07-09 17:57:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: up to gigabytes - sd cards are big these days
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1129 2013-07-09 18:00:33 <jgarzik> laden swallows
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1133 2013-07-09 18:02:16 <james321> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/12035/building-a-bitcoin-ipn-need-unique-identifier
1134 2013-07-09 18:02:19 <james321> relevant to my interests
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1136 2013-07-09 18:03:33 <petertodd> Oh here's another idea: so honey bees have their dances right that they use to communicate information about food sources and what not between each other. These dances act as gossip networks, where the dance related to the best food source or whatever is what is relayed onwards. So genetically engineer them to communicate 256-bit numbers between each other, and evaluate SHA256^2 partial pre-images to determine which one they'll relay.
1137 2013-07-09 18:03:43 <sipa> imton: you need to look up the previous output to find the amount, i'd rather not do that inline in searchrawtransaction, as it means another disk fetch
1138 2013-07-09 18:03:52 <jgarzik> james321, txid will not change, once confirmed
1139 2013-07-09 18:04:01 <jgarzik> james321, txid is your unique id
1140 2013-07-09 18:04:08 <petertodd> Now, genetic drift is an issue, so air-drop sugar feeders that only feed bees who have sufficiently high difficulty dances.
1141 2013-07-09 18:04:15 <sipa> imton, gmaxwell: gettxout is very fast, but only worka for unspent outputs
1142 2013-07-09 18:05:22 <james321> sweet sauce. how many confirms? 'block reorganisations' will not change it?
1143 2013-07-09 18:05:48 <petertodd> james321: block reorganizations can change what is unspent...
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1145 2013-07-09 18:06:02 <gmaxwell> james321: potentially an infinite number of ones, in practice not that many.
1146 2013-07-09 18:06:19 <kjj> odd question... does 0.8+ use the old blkindex.dat when converting, or does it ignore that and just read the block files?
1147 2013-07-09 18:06:27 <gmaxwell> Nothing in the universe is absolute, some things are just more honest bout others. :P
1148 2013-07-09 18:06:36 <gmaxwell> kjj: just reads the block files.
1149 2013-07-09 18:08:20 <kjj> cool, thanks
1150 2013-07-09 18:08:57 <james321> okay, ty. and 'listtransactions *' will still run fine when there are 100s of transactions ?
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1154 2013-07-09 18:09:57 <jgarzik> james321, yes, though you can pass a limit parameter to that
1155 2013-07-09 18:13:56 <james321> great. but the 'from' offset parameter will not very useful for me if the transactions sometimes change their order/get deleted
1156 2013-07-09 18:14:13 <james321> safer to load them all i think
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1158 2013-07-09 18:16:43 <phantomcircuit> james321, listtransactions works fine even with tens of thousands, it just takes longer
1159 2013-07-09 18:16:52 <phantomcircuit> mostly that's serialization time to
1160 2013-07-09 18:16:53 <phantomcircuit> oh json
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1162 2013-07-09 18:17:34 <james321> tens of thousands should be enough for me ;)
1163 2013-07-09 18:17:37 <phantomcircuit> james321, the "right" way to do it is to keep track of which blocks you've check the transactions in
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1168 2013-07-09 18:25:10 <james321> Thanks, but I don't want to learn the whole Bitcoin protocol for this. Nor do I think that any other non-Bitcoin developers will who just want to simply integrate the payment system without using 3rd party.
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1170 2013-07-09 18:31:20 <helo> proper security without using a 3rd party (coinbase or bitpay) is going to require the attention of someone that understands the bitcoin protocol regardless
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1172 2013-07-09 18:31:45 <skinnkavaj> Bitcoins biggest problem: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=238229.0
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1178 2013-07-09 18:33:19 <helo> decentralization ftw
1179 2013-07-09 18:34:12 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: the centralization of bitcoin is really a problem https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=238229.0
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1181 2013-07-09 18:34:57 <helo> and there are going to be new incentives for centralization down the road too
1182 2013-07-09 18:35:52 <james321> Hah! As if 3rd party Bitcoin services know anything about security at allhas any
1183 2013-07-09 18:35:56 <james321> at all*
1184 2013-07-09 18:36:22 <Scrat> skinnkavaj: what can gmaxwell do other than nuking china?
1185 2013-07-09 18:36:40 <helo> decentralization is naturally more costly than centralization, so bitcoin has to make such costs as low as possible
1186 2013-07-09 18:38:10 <helo> it all depends on a particular entity's developers. many 3rd parties have shown themselves to be pretty shoddy, but others seem pretty competent.
1187 2013-07-09 18:38:58 <helo> bitpay, for example, has a pristine record afaik
1188 2013-07-09 18:39:16 roconnor has joined
1189 2013-07-09 18:42:05 chorao has joined
1190 2013-07-09 18:44:12 <james321> It is also based in the US. That tells me everything I need to know.
1191 2013-07-09 18:44:14 sacrelege has joined
1192 2013-07-09 18:44:35 malaimo has joined
1193 2013-07-09 18:46:08 <helo> it can be a plus for US-based users. legal recourse can be handy.
1194 2013-07-09 18:48:05 <james321> I don't disagree. I'm sure its a good choice for a lot of people :)
1195 2013-07-09 18:49:00 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
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1197 2013-07-09 18:49:21 David__ has joined
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1199 2013-07-09 18:51:34 CheckDavid has joined
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1201 2013-07-09 18:55:03 reneg_ has joined
1202 2013-07-09 18:55:36 reneg__ has joined
1203 2013-07-09 18:56:06 santoscork has joined
1204 2013-07-09 18:56:18 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, yawn
1205 2013-07-09 18:56:34 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, plenty of other ASIC mining coming online. The system is actively rebalancing itself.
1206 2013-07-09 18:56:49 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, Widen the timescale of examination
1207 2013-07-09 18:57:02 Guest74147 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1208 2013-07-09 18:57:07 <jgarzik> Avoid looking at a single week's or month's worth of graphs
1209 2013-07-09 18:58:39 <skinnkavaj> jgarzik: This is a serous problem. How can you just ignore it? I think it was Avalon or ASICminer who had the power of 50% of the network. This was ONE man holding 50% power of the network. This is going to happen again. And you knoq how it would be profitiable by ruining bitcoin? BUY other altcoins.
1210 2013-07-09 18:59:19 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1211 2013-07-09 18:59:25 <skinnkavaj> jgarzik: If intel/AMD start making ASICs they will for sure have no problem controlling 50% of the network.
1212 2013-07-09 18:59:40 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: And you suggest?
1213 2013-07-09 18:59:44 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, It is a dynamic and transparent system. Everybody knows this, and invests accordingly. Some people are investing making miners of their own.
1214 2013-07-09 18:59:57 <jgarzik> The free market is actively adjusting.
1215 2013-07-09 18:59:57 WKNiGHT has joined
1216 2013-07-09 19:01:56 <skinnkavaj> If this is really a crippling problem, it seems like there would be a relatively easy solution to it: release an update that makes the difficulty adjustment happen more frequently. Thus with this flood of ASICs come on the market, maybe it'll adjust in a day or two rather than two weeks. Wouldn't that just totally solve the problem?
1217 2013-07-09 19:02:11 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell, jgarzik: Quoted from forums. ^
1218 2013-07-09 19:02:28 reizuki__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1219 2013-07-09 19:02:36 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: uh. that does _nothing_ relative to the stuff you're talking about.
1220 2013-07-09 19:02:56 reizuki__ has joined
1221 2013-07-09 19:03:05 <gmaxwell> And reducing the difficulty adjustment window reduces the cost of a isolate and mine down attack.
1222 2013-07-09 19:03:25 <warren> Why are there two copies of bitcoin.ico in the source, and they aren't identical?
1223 2013-07-09 19:04:38 owowo has joined
1224 2013-07-09 19:04:44 freewil has joined
1225 2013-07-09 19:05:34 <jrmithdobbs> warren: cruft
1226 2013-07-09 19:05:57 <warren> we can't make them a symlink because some OS's can't have symlinks right?
1227 2013-07-09 19:06:33 <helo> warren: decentralization of course
1228 2013-07-09 19:06:50 <warren> helo: thwack
1229 2013-07-09 19:06:51 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: So do a hard fork and make bitcoin ASIC resistant just like Dan said. Only solution.
1230 2013-07-09 19:07:05 <gmaxwell> gibberish.
1231 2013-07-09 19:07:30 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: no such thing can be done, you can just changed the multipliers around a bit.
1232 2013-07-09 19:07:36 <helo> skinnkavaj: did you miss the "reduces the cost of [..] attack" comment?
1233 2013-07-09 19:08:14 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: So you can't change bitcoin to scrypt like litecoin?
1234 2013-07-09 19:08:20 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: lets just imagine that somehow you could make it so that only an x86 cpu could mine itâ which is not reasonable, but lets assume itâ how, pray tell, does that help with "If intel/AMD start making ASICs they will for sure have no problem controlling 50% of the network.
1235 2013-07-09 19:08:23 <skinnkavaj> Even with a hard fork?
1236 2013-07-09 19:08:26 <gmaxwell> "
1237 2013-07-09 19:08:45 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, that would be stupid. It dramatically reduces the strength of bitcoin's network, and makes it susceptible to rentable botnets
1238 2013-07-09 19:08:50 <jgarzik> scrypt is not a solution
1239 2013-07-09 19:08:52 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: scrypt is a failure
1240 2013-07-09 19:09:06 <Luke-Jr> ASIC-resistant isn't even theoretically possible
1241 2013-07-09 19:09:08 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: That wouldn't change anything wrt what you're complaining about. Keep in mind that litecoin adopted scrypt in order to be "gpu proof"
1242 2013-07-09 19:09:11 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, scrypt w/ litecoin params is a failure
1243 2013-07-09 19:09:13 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Lol, ofc you would come out. You have always hated on litecoin for no reason..
1244 2013-07-09 19:09:24 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: well, scrypt with memory-hard params would be even worse
1245 2013-07-09 19:09:33 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: no, I hate litecoin because it is a scam
1246 2013-07-09 19:09:38 <skinnkavaj> jgarzik: I don't care if we use scrypt. Just make bitcoin ASIC resistant.
1247 2013-07-09 19:09:42 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: He correctly pointed outâ way back at the startâ that litecoin wouldn't even be GPU resistant.
1248 2013-07-09 19:09:46 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: that's NOT POSSIBLE
1249 2013-07-09 19:09:58 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, not possible
1250 2013-07-09 19:09:58 <jrmithdobbs> it's a cops and robbers game, no matter which algorithm you base the POW on the shit is going to get optimized more and more because there's financial incentive to
1251 2013-07-09 19:09:59 <warren> aasic resistance in litecoin is a non-goal with the current team
1252 2013-07-09 19:10:03 <jrmithdobbs> this isn't a bad thing though?!
1253 2013-07-09 19:10:10 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: It cannot be done. It isn't possible. A CPU is an ASIC too. At best you can juggle some constants around.
1254 2013-07-09 19:10:15 <skinnkavaj> Change to scrypt now -> make it ASIC resistant -> switch again when people are doing asics for litecoin
1255 2013-07-09 19:10:32 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1256 2013-07-09 19:10:32 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, You're not listening to what we are saying, are you?
1257 2013-07-09 19:10:34 <jgarzik> :)
1258 2013-07-09 19:10:34 <jrmithdobbs> why? the asics are a good thing?
1259 2013-07-09 19:10:41 <Luke-Jr> ^
1260 2013-07-09 19:10:47 <skinnkavaj> jrmithdobbs: So just cahnge it every time then
1261 2013-07-09 19:10:55 <jrmithdobbs> better POW implementations are better for everyone
1262 2013-07-09 19:11:02 <jrmithdobbs> it makes bitcoin more secure
1263 2013-07-09 19:11:02 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: there's no reason to
1264 2013-07-09 19:11:12 <gmaxwell> Indeed, they are likely a good thing, but thats orthorgonal to the property skinnkavaj asking for being generally impossible.
1265 2013-07-09 19:11:19 <Luke-Jr> ASICs are the best thing that ever happened to Bitcoin security
1266 2013-07-09 19:11:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, possible with centralization and meh
1267 2013-07-09 19:11:38 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: Again, please answer how your proposal resolves the concern you raised: "If intel/AMD start making ASICs they will for sure have no problem controlling 50% of the network."
1268 2013-07-09 19:11:39 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: LOL. So ONE man can have 50% network power.
1269 2013-07-09 19:11:39 <jrmithdobbs> so long as the security properties aren't being circumvented by some flaw, what you're saying is pretty much nonsensical and shows a lack of understanding wrt why bitcoin works.
1270 2013-07-09 19:12:05 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: no such one man exists
1271 2013-07-09 19:12:08 <skinnkavaj> ASIC is ruining bitcoin and you are blind to see it. ASIC is doing bitcoin centralized, in power of a few hands. Just like central banks.
1272 2013-07-09 19:12:11 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: the introduction of state of the art hardware is whatâ ultimatelyâ prevents one man from controlling the network.
1273 2013-07-09 19:12:17 <jrmithdobbs> i for one welcome intel and amd into the optimized sha256d() competition
1274 2013-07-09 19:12:26 <jrmithdobbs> how would that not be GREAT for everyone?
1275 2013-07-09 19:12:29 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: ASICs are making bitcoin far more decentralized than it has been in a long time
1276 2013-07-09 19:12:40 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Ask ASICMINER/Avalon how much hashing power they have had in their hands.
1277 2013-07-09 19:12:51 <jrmithdobbs> better/faster/cheaper hw implementations of good-enough primitives is good for computing in general, fuck bitcoin ;p
1278 2013-07-09 19:12:58 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: no need, it's public info
1279 2013-07-09 19:13:03 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I've been >50% of varrious altcoins (perhaps even litecoin at one point, I'm actually not sure of that), you can't magically fix that by twiddling POWs.
1280 2013-07-09 19:13:15 FabianB_ has joined
1281 2013-07-09 19:13:15 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, i suspect it wouldn't actually be implementations of the primitives
1282 2013-07-09 19:13:44 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: right, which is even better because better/faster/cheaper general use lower-level primitives that improve things even more in the long run
1283 2013-07-09 19:13:50 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: eg, mmx/sse
1284 2013-07-09 19:13:59 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1285 2013-07-09 19:14:19 <phantomcircuit> well it would be nice if intel would implement accelerated sha2 instructions
1286 2013-07-09 19:14:24 <phantomcircuit> to complement the aes-in
1287 2013-07-09 19:14:33 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: ASIC are good for the rich people. Like you. Hell of couirse its good for ASICMINER too. But for us little guys, who WANT to keep bitcoin decentralized as satoshi clearlyh stated, ASICS is terrible.
1288 2013-07-09 19:14:41 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: but intel especially has been pretty keen on straight up implementing the primitives (aesni and the drbg stuff recently)
1289 2013-07-09 19:14:55 <jgarzik> Oh
1290 2013-07-09 19:15:03 <jgarzik> So this is about the little people, who cannot mine anymore?
1291 2013-07-09 19:15:37 <jrmithdobbs> skinnkavaj: cheap asic pow impl do exactly that though? keep things decentralized
1292 2013-07-09 19:15:39 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: quite the opposite. The cost of building a little 300MH USB miner relative to the total hashpower is far lower than what a GPU got you a year ago.
1293 2013-07-09 19:15:47 <jrmithdobbs> skinnkavaj: you're like arguing against yourself here
1294 2013-07-09 19:16:13 <gmaxwell> There seems to some wackyness with excess demand right now elevating the price but that obviously can't continue.
1295 2013-07-09 19:16:45 <helo> yeah... if mining is easier for an individual, then it's easier for an entity to control >50%
1296 2013-07-09 19:16:46 ericmuyser has joined
1297 2013-07-09 19:17:12 <phantomcircuit> it still requires a huge amount of capital
1298 2013-07-09 19:17:14 <Luke-Jr> at some point, those USB Erupters will probably go for a dime :p
1299 2013-07-09 19:17:15 <jrmithdobbs> helo: but the fact that it makes the former easier seems, so far, to counterbalance the latter
1300 2013-07-09 19:17:34 <Luke-Jr> bitdime*
1301 2013-07-09 19:17:40 <gmaxwell> certantly there are some growing pains... demand has insanly outpaced supply. Though that happened with GPUs too.. There were _months_ in 2011 where you couldn't buy a 58xx gpu anywhere.
1302 2013-07-09 19:18:11 <skinnkavaj> phantomcircuit: Buy different altcoins. Hell buy a LOT. Massproduce/buy 51% hashing power. Destroy bitcoin. ?????? Profit
1303 2013-07-09 19:18:22 <jrmithdobbs> ya, i personally bought out newegg of 5830s at one point
1304 2013-07-09 19:18:32 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: lol, get scammed? that helps someone maybe, but not the buyer
1305 2013-07-09 19:18:51 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: good luck with that.
1306 2013-07-09 19:19:30 <skinnkavaj> jgarzik: I don't even mine myself and I have never done. So I don't care about the profits of mining. The only thing i care about is to keep bitcoin decentralized. You are just fooling yourself if you think that its good that 4-5 big companies will be in charge of mining and the bitcoin network.
1307 2013-07-09 19:19:39 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, if you attacked bitcoin with a 51% attack you would almost certainly destroy the altcoins as well
1308 2013-07-09 19:19:59 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: because one company (AMD) being "in charge" of it was better? :P
1309 2013-07-09 19:20:04 <Luke-Jr> ^
1310 2013-07-09 19:20:09 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1311 2013-07-09 19:20:34 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: How can AMD be in charge of it? If you change from scrypt to another all the time. I'm talking about doing hard forks once a year and change this.
1312 2013-07-09 19:20:42 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1313 2013-07-09 19:20:49 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: Who co-ordinates these forks?
1314 2013-07-09 19:20:56 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: because that doesn't actually accomplish your goal.
1315 2013-07-09 19:21:03 <jgarzik> CPU era, companies in charge: Intel, AMD. GPU era, companies in charge: AMD FPGA era, companies in charge: Xilinx, others? ASIC era, companies in charge: TSMC, others?
1316 2013-07-09 19:21:11 <skinnkavaj> petertodd: Who coordinates bitcoin updates? Bitcoin foundation? Gavin? Who?
1317 2013-07-09 19:21:36 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: nobody
1318 2013-07-09 19:21:44 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: as I said above, explain to me how making it require a x86 cpu (ignoring the impossiblity of that) would make it suddenly resistant to an interested attack by Intel and/or AMD?
1319 2013-07-09 19:21:45 <Luke-Jr> it's decentralized, remember
1320 2013-07-09 19:21:52 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: No-one is co-ordinating hard-forks - all the updates we've had don't require co-ordination.
1321 2013-07-09 19:22:05 chorao has joined
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1323 2013-07-09 19:22:35 peetaur2 has joined
1324 2013-07-09 19:22:52 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: Note for instance how the recent v2 soft-fork was *voted* on by miners. The core development team had a good idea, and convinced other people to do it too.
1325 2013-07-09 19:23:51 <skinnkavaj> petertodd: So why can't we do this and change the hasing algorithm freqeqntly?
1326 2013-07-09 19:24:15 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: are you going to ignore the question I've asked you multiple times here? because it answers what you're trying to ask petertodd too.
1327 2013-07-09 19:24:15 <Luke-Jr> changing the hashing algorithm isn't a soft-fork, requires coordination, etc
1328 2013-07-09 19:24:42 <gmaxwell> (not to mention, lol having miners vote over the acceptable POW is lol^2)
1329 2013-07-09 19:24:53 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: It is a joke that a guy named Friedcat is controlling 25% of the bitcoin network himself. Decentralized? Haha good joke.
1330 2013-07-09 19:25:05 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: So, thats a yes to ignoring my question?
1331 2013-07-09 19:25:12 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: complain to the people who paid him to do it
1332 2013-07-09 19:25:13 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: You can with the exact same process. Release a bitcoin client that changes the hashing algorithm under some circumstance and convince people to use it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
1333 2013-07-09 19:25:14 <handle> relevancy out of the window? lol
1334 2013-07-09 19:25:37 <gmaxwell> "himself" is also misleading, asicminer exists because its funded by large numbers of people on the forums.
1335 2013-07-09 19:25:46 <jgarzik> For a troll to be successful, it must actively incite and involve participants of the given communications medium.
1336 2013-07-09 19:25:53 <gmaxwell> (where do you think the money came from to build that farm?)
1337 2013-07-09 19:26:06 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1338 2013-07-09 19:26:43 <skinnkavaj> Greedy bastards like Luke-Jr is never going to want to want to change hashing algorithm. Because this rich Luke-Jr has one the first Asic miners and is laughin all the way to the bank. I'm not saying Luke-Jr is a bad person, but its in his best interest and human is a greedy kind.
1339 2013-07-09 19:26:53 Belkaar has joined
1340 2013-07-09 19:27:08 <gmaxwell> Oh yea, luke-jr is mr. moneybags.
1341 2013-07-09 19:27:31 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1342 2013-07-09 19:27:34 <Luke-Jr> I even have my own seastead soverign nation!
1343 2013-07-09 19:27:39 <skinnkavaj> jgarzik: Do you really believe i'm trolling? I'm controverisal and bringing up valid points that you are afraid talking about.
1344 2013-07-09 19:27:40 <gmaxwell> hahahah
1345 2013-07-09 19:27:42 <petertodd> jgarzik: heh, indeed. You know, if we were signing all our irc messages, you could turn this into a proof-of-troll algorithm by having someone commit to a given troll, broadcast it in a verifyable way, and then measure the change in message volume. Bit tricky though, because you have to make the commitment expensive.
1346 2013-07-09 19:28:03 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: you're doing a convincing immitation of trolling; after allâ you're actually ignoring the responses to your "valid points"
1347 2013-07-09 19:28:06 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, You are directly ignoring specific flaws and criticism.
1348 2013-07-09 19:28:08 <petertodd> jgarzik: Also, need the guaranteed global visibility stuff gmaxwell and I were talking about earlier - basically an IRC proof-of-stake blockchain.
1349 2013-07-09 19:28:35 <jgarzik> petertodd, then the troll would be? smoking PoT?
1350 2013-07-09 19:28:44 <gmaxwell> hah
1351 2013-07-09 19:28:55 <Luke-Jr> lol
1352 2013-07-09 19:29:44 <petertodd> ha
1353 2013-07-09 19:30:37 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: if you think Bitcoin needs to change POW algorithm, THEN CHANGE IT
1354 2013-07-09 19:30:58 pppkjkk has joined
1355 2013-07-09 19:31:14 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: So how is bitcoin EVER going to work if Intel/AMD can massproduce miners and control the network? We will be slaves by Intel/AMD. They will be in charge of all decision and be the 51% majority.
1356 2013-07-09 19:31:20 Moo-_- has joined
1357 2013-07-09 19:31:32 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: I have no solution to this
1358 2013-07-09 19:31:32 TD_ has joined
1359 2013-07-09 19:31:43 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: If it becomes a problem Bitcoin users can decide to change the PoW. Until they, why bother?
1360 2013-07-09 19:31:45 <jrmithdobbs> skinnkavaj: so how is international commerce ever going to work if every transaction is monitored by intelligence agenc... oh wait
1361 2013-07-09 19:31:53 <xenland> demand always produces :)
1362 2013-07-09 19:31:53 <jrmithdobbs> skinnkavaj: see i can throw out strawmen too
1363 2013-07-09 19:32:41 <gjs278> asics aren't terrible for keeping it decentralized
1364 2013-07-09 19:32:43 <jrmithdobbs> skinnkavaj: also stop arguing with yourself
1365 2013-07-09 19:32:51 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: if there is truly a serious ongoing breach of bitcoin security, you should have no problem changing the algorithm yourself
1366 2013-07-09 19:32:52 <gjs278> more hashes less problems
1367 2013-07-09 19:33:03 <jrmithdobbs> skinnkavaj: the argument to the intel/amd thing is "so let small parties produce and sell the specialized hardware" but you also object to that
1368 2013-07-09 19:33:10 <jrmithdobbs> so
1369 2013-07-09 19:33:16 <jrmithdobbs> what to do?
1370 2013-07-09 19:33:54 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1371 2013-07-09 19:34:13 <Scrat> make the POW a DHT?
1372 2013-07-09 19:34:15 * Scrat I win
1373 2013-07-09 19:34:22 <petertodd> Scrat: did you fidelity bond it?
1374 2013-07-09 19:34:35 <Scrat> it's a chaumian DHT
1375 2013-07-09 19:34:37 <gmaxwell> petertodd: he used the cloud, it has webscale.
1376 2013-07-09 19:34:45 <skinnkavaj> jrmithdobbs: If you all the time change the hasing algorithm. If we can get a majority now to agree that we need to change this once every second month. Wouldnt that be a solution?=
1377 2013-07-09 19:35:04 <gjs278> lol wut
1378 2013-07-09 19:35:05 <Scrat> skinnkavaj: I'd like to see friedcat's % in a few years
1379 2013-07-09 19:35:14 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: a majority is not enough to change it
1380 2013-07-09 19:35:16 <gjs278> I'm not updating my bitcoind every two months
1381 2013-07-09 19:35:19 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: you need 100% agreement
1382 2013-07-09 19:35:22 MCM-Mike is now known as mcm
1383 2013-07-09 19:35:27 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: and not just from miners, from users too
1384 2013-07-09 19:35:32 <helo> skinnkavaj: won't that be AMD/Intel back in control?
1385 2013-07-09 19:35:59 <jrmithdobbs> skinnkavaj: how the hell are you going to design enough hash functions to make that feasible while maintaining security?
1386 2013-07-09 19:36:43 <petertodd> Scrat: ooh, I've never heard that one before. So it gives you data in a way that is provably unknown data? Kinda like a write only memory...
1387 2013-07-09 19:36:45 <jrmithdobbs> skinnkavaj: that statement is expresses such a deep seated misunderstanding of this entire conversation that I really don't know how to respond.
1388 2013-07-09 19:36:54 <jrmithdobbs> s/is //
1389 2013-07-09 19:38:56 <weex> i see this as a question of who controls the means of production of the most efficient mining hardware
1390 2013-07-09 19:39:21 <weex> gpu -> AMD, asic -> more companies
1391 2013-07-09 19:39:34 <weex> maybe one day we'll all have our own little foundries
1392 2013-07-09 19:39:45 <Scrat> petertodd: it provably makes your hair follicles die
1393 2013-07-09 19:39:51 <Scrat> damn you DHT
1394 2013-07-09 19:40:05 <petertodd> Scrat: ha
1395 2013-07-09 19:40:32 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I repeat. Say you change it monthly. â Or daily. How does this make it more resistant to an attack by Intel/AMD? (your stated problem)
1396 2013-07-09 19:41:08 <weex> those companies would be less likely to invest to take over the network?
1397 2013-07-09 19:41:11 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1398 2013-07-09 19:41:35 <jrmithdobbs> I still want to know how you plan on coming up with this many secure hash functions because you've not really commented
1399 2013-07-09 19:42:01 <jrmithdobbs> and seeing as your entire "solution" rests on that, it seems like something you may want to think through before proposing such an idea ...
1400 2013-07-09 19:42:03 <Scrat> skinnkavaj: is your first name Dan?
1401 2013-07-09 19:42:28 ericmuyser has joined
1402 2013-07-09 19:44:38 <jrmithdobbs> the only semi-sane way to do that is to using a construction similar to hmac (similar, you don't really need all the properties of hmac) with a stream cipher and a published key and a time/blockheight based index into said stream to derive your key material for the mac operation ...
1403 2013-07-09 19:45:00 <jrmithdobbs> but that solves nothing since shuffling a constant around just makes the design slightly more complicated
1404 2013-07-09 19:45:02 <Luke-Jr> [19:03:17] <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: I have no solution to this
1405 2013-07-09 19:45:20 <jrmithdobbs> (design of the hw)
1406 2013-07-09 19:45:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: thanks.
1407 2013-07-09 19:45:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ?
1408 2013-07-09 19:46:12 <gmaxwell> And then soâ if it won't solve the stated problem. Whats the point? "Something must be done! This is something! So it must be done!!" ?
1409 2013-07-09 19:46:35 <weex> worry harder!
1410 2013-07-09 19:46:39 <Luke-Jr> lol
1411 2013-07-09 19:46:49 FabianB_ is now known as FabianB
1412 2013-07-09 19:46:51 <jrmithdobbs> also, i'm not entirely sure that what i just described would be bad for bitcoin, but it really doesn't seem necessary
1413 2013-07-09 19:47:00 <jgarzik> weex, I want that on a bumper sticker
1414 2013-07-09 19:47:05 <jgarzik> maybe give it to my wife
1415 2013-07-09 19:47:45 <jrmithdobbs> yes
1416 2013-07-09 19:47:55 <jrmithdobbs> would work well as a tshirt
1417 2013-07-09 19:48:07 <weex> cafepress here we come
1418 2013-07-09 19:48:17 <Diablo-D3> cafepress sucks
1419 2013-07-09 19:48:37 <Diablo-D3> use zazzle instead
1420 2013-07-09 19:49:21 da2ce7 has joined
1421 2013-07-09 19:49:44 <weex> each pow has a corresponding most-efficient hardware design to mine it
1422 2013-07-09 19:49:46 <petertodd> I almost want to point out to skinnkavaj that my whole blocksize thing is pretty much the same kind of political thing he's pushing, and then give him the contact details for my friends production company to collect my 5% referral fee when he makes a propaganda video. But I'm not evil.
1423 2013-07-09 19:50:09 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1424 2013-07-09 19:50:29 <weex> or maybe you go from each piece of hardware and can choose a pow to best suit it?
1425 2013-07-09 19:50:37 <gmaxwell> presumably you think your concerns are more coherent than you think his are?
1426 2013-07-09 19:51:04 <skinnkavaj> petertodd: You are on the same track as me. I know. I watched your propaganda video and I loved it. Its good propaganda.
1427 2013-07-09 19:51:13 <skinnkavaj> This is the best solution
1428 2013-07-09 19:51:14 <skinnkavaj> 20:53:31) (gmaxwell) skinnkavaj: as I said above, explain to me how making it require a x86 cpu (ignoring the impossiblity of that) would make it suddenly resistant to an interested attack by Intel and/or AMD?
1429 2013-07-09 19:51:30 <gmaxwell> weex: Yea, sounds great. I choose the pow where values are valid signatures by a 1GMaxwell key.
1430 2013-07-09 19:51:35 <petertodd> weex: Yeah, I'm pretty sure the best you can do is make the most efficient custom hardware design be something where 90% of the benifit comes from putting components together, possible with a cottage industry.
1431 2013-07-09 19:51:52 <weex> require 3d printing
1432 2013-07-09 19:52:06 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: That's stonecanoe.ca - tell them Peter referred you. Also warn them that Peter thinks you're crazy.
1433 2013-07-09 19:52:23 <petertodd> gmaxwell: pretty much
1434 2013-07-09 19:53:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: anyway, discourse has gotten to the point where I don't need to talk about it for now - a solid success. Seeing inputs.io pop up is very promising.
1435 2013-07-09 19:54:01 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: The answer is that everyone could buy up as many cpu cores possible and then we would not run in the problem that Intel could massproduce. For every x86 CPU bought, we would build a stronger and stronger network. In the end Intel would not have the money to mass produce and ruin.
1436 2013-07-09 19:54:19 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1437 2013-07-09 19:54:28 <Diablo-D3> ...
1438 2013-07-09 19:54:30 <Diablo-D3> is this guy on drugs?
1439 2013-07-09 19:54:32 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: you know it costs Intel less than like 10 cents per CPU they make, in material costs?
1440 2013-07-09 19:54:53 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: its closer to 15
1441 2013-07-09 19:54:59 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: It's a lot higher than that actually, a whole $10 or so!
1442 2013-07-09 19:55:08 <Diablo-D3> oh he said cents
1443 2013-07-09 19:55:09 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: close enough
1444 2013-07-09 19:55:11 <Diablo-D3> sorry, its closer to $15
1445 2013-07-09 19:55:12 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: uh did you think about that before you answered? how is this different if you substitute $CUSTOM_ASIC_COMPANY? except for the fact that bitcoin asics don't depend on highly secret and patented designs?
1446 2013-07-09 19:55:15 <weex> skinnkavaj: who do you trust more? intel or a bunch of smaller companies working with a bunch of foundries? is that not more decentralized?
1447 2013-07-09 19:55:19 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1448 2013-07-09 19:55:56 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: Go away until you understand my point about turning custom hardware miners into something attainable in a cottage industry.
1449 2013-07-09 19:56:03 * petertodd /ignore skinnkavaj
1450 2013-07-09 19:56:20 stevedekorte has joined
1451 2013-07-09 19:57:04 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: I dont know if this is possible. But say we manage to make mining ONLY work with ONE type of CPU. Then all big asic miner player could buy up as many as they can, plus the little guys can also buy up many. With Asics, you will fight against mores law all the time, because one day someoen will beat Friedcat in making asics. This wont happen if we make mining ONLY with ONE type of
1452 2013-07-09 19:57:05 <skinnkavaj> CARD/CPU.
1453 2013-07-09 19:57:27 <Diablo-D3> uh
1454 2013-07-09 19:57:29 <Diablo-D3> are you on drugs?
1455 2013-07-09 19:57:53 OldEnK has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1456 2013-07-09 19:58:04 <kjj> sigh. good to see that I didn't miss anything by ignoring this debate
1457 2013-07-09 19:58:28 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: then the maker of that one cpu can build the parts for substantially cheaper than _anyone_ else, _and_ anytime an honest user buys one they pay a potential attacker too.
1458 2013-07-09 19:58:28 * helo tries to find one of those fortune telling machines to trade bodies with kjj
1459 2013-07-09 19:59:52 BTCOxygen2 has joined
1460 2013-07-09 20:00:33 <Luke-Jr> not to mention optimize that one CPU design
1461 2013-07-09 20:01:28 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: Well I'm out of suggestions then. Bitcoin is fucked by ASIC. Bitcoin will be worze than the current banking system, because power of the network will be in very few hands. I'm out.
1462 2013-07-09 20:01:34 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1463 2013-07-09 20:02:00 <Luke-Jr> lol
1464 2013-07-09 20:02:12 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: you've still not grasped that asics have nothing to do with this. That whole discussion could have been had a year ago.
1465 2013-07-09 20:02:24 <kjj> If you are out, can I haz your bitcoins?
1466 2013-07-09 20:03:09 <gmaxwell> That was part of the reason that I intentionally clamped it back to straight cpu mining (assuming that you could mandate that, which you can't)... because it makes it clear: an anonymous consensus system can't be secure if you've got an attacker outspending the honest users.
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1473 2013-07-09 20:16:17 <weex> They have all the foundries, patents, and engineers, and all we have is love.
1474 2013-07-09 20:16:40 badbitcoin has joined
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1476 2013-07-09 20:17:47 <Luke-Jr> PoL
1477 2013-07-09 20:18:21 * gmaxwell starts up the love miners.
1478 2013-07-09 20:19:46 <gwillen> o_O
1479 2013-07-09 20:20:29 Lolcust- has joined
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1481 2013-07-09 20:22:21 <gmaxwell> Barneycoin.
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1575 2013-07-09 21:37:37 <Luke-Jr> hmm, anyone know how CBigNum ends up being on the wire? :/
1576 2013-07-09 21:38:02 <Luke-Jr> it looked from the code like OpenSSL's MPI format, but it doesn't seem to be that in practice
1577 2013-07-09 21:38:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: where is it used?
1578 2013-07-09 21:38:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Primecoin's block signatures <.<
1579 2013-07-09 21:39:37 <sipa> big-endian byte array, from what it seems
1580 2013-07-09 21:39:46 <sipa> which compact int length descriptor
1581 2013-07-09 21:40:22 <sipa> sorry, little endian
1582 2013-07-09 21:41:28 Vinnie_win has joined
1583 2013-07-09 21:42:41 <Luke-Jr> thanks
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1585 2013-07-09 21:44:57 <BlueMatt> watching debug.log in tniab while testing payment channels, knowing money moving without anything but pings is still kinda strange...
1586 2013-07-09 21:46:06 <petertodd> watching debug.log in .bitcoin while smoking pot, knowing money moving without anything other than useless work and information is still kinda strange...
1587 2013-07-09 21:46:27 jiffe98 has joined
1588 2013-07-09 21:47:05 <petertodd> BlueMatt: anyone stepped up with a concrete thing they want to implement for it yet?
1589 2013-07-09 21:47:07 <BlueMatt> hah, well that too
1590 2013-07-09 21:47:09 mcm is now known as MCM-Mike
1591 2013-07-09 21:47:23 <BlueMatt> petertodd: nothing anyone plans on releasing yet afaik
1592 2013-07-09 21:48:03 <petertodd> BlueMatt: too bad, although I guess it needs an address type and payment protocol and a bunch of other infrastructure
1593 2013-07-09 21:48:23 <BlueMatt> not really, you just need to know wtf you want to do with it and the motivation to do it
1594 2013-07-09 21:48:40 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1595 2013-07-09 21:49:00 <BlueMatt> was talking about it w/ mike at lunch, wouldnt really take much to implement some fancy stuff with it
1596 2013-07-09 21:49:11 <petertodd> I'm thinking for user friendly multibit/android wallet support
1597 2013-07-09 21:49:24 <BlueMatt> oh, yea, you need in-app support for it
1598 2013-07-09 21:49:29 <petertodd> although I guess it's just as likely an app would say "fund this app"
1599 2013-07-09 21:50:24 jayne_ is now known as jayne
1600 2013-07-09 21:51:42 patcon has joined
1601 2013-07-09 21:53:57 <jiffe98> so if I wanted to setup my own private bitcoin network with low difficulty to play around with, what would be my best path?
1602 2013-07-09 21:54:23 <BlueMatt> pass the -regtest parameter to bitcoind and go
1603 2013-07-09 21:54:34 <BlueMatt> (difficulty is essentially -INF with that)
1604 2013-07-09 21:54:40 <petertodd> So -regtest doesn't disable peering?
1605 2013-07-09 21:54:44 <BlueMatt> (then set appropriate -connect and -listen stuff)
1606 2013-07-09 21:54:47 <BlueMatt> I believe it does
1607 2013-07-09 21:54:49 reneg_ has joined
1608 2013-07-09 21:54:51 <BlueMatt> (by default)
1609 2013-07-09 21:54:55 <gmaxwell> or use testnet in a box.
1610 2013-07-09 21:55:01 <BlueMatt> well, at least it has no sources for bootstrapping peers
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1612 2013-07-09 21:57:30 <petertodd> BlueMatt: ok, so -regtest disables peer discovery, but you can still set peers manually
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1616 2013-07-09 22:01:35 <BlueMatt> yea, ofc
1617 2013-07-09 22:04:04 reneg_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1618 2013-07-09 22:04:10 * BlueMatt has been running a regtest network on his workstation for weeks to test payment channel stuff
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1620 2013-07-09 22:04:45 <BlueMatt> wallet balance: 10748.10646906, current mining subsidy: 0.0016...
1621 2013-07-09 22:04:56 <BlueMatt> time to do anything on the wallet with that many transactions: FOREVER
1622 2013-07-09 22:07:07 <sipa> BlueMatt: run it on the cluster!
1623 2013-07-09 22:07:12 <BlueMatt> hah
1624 2013-07-09 22:07:23 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: So is Primecoin also a scam?
1625 2013-07-09 22:07:34 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: dunno yet
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1628 2013-07-09 22:16:35 <jiffe98> hmm, I get 500 internal errors when I try to connect miners to the bitcoind started with regtest enabled
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1631 2013-07-09 22:24:35 <jurov> bitcoin.sipa.be seems to not update since 07/04 (sorry if someone noticed already)
1632 2013-07-09 22:26:20 <jiffe98> {"code":-10,"message":"Bitcoin is downloading blocks..."},
1633 2013-07-09 22:27:06 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you can largely fix the performance issues with a few patches
1634 2013-07-09 22:27:14 <phantomcircuit> some things will still be slow but not really
1635 2013-07-09 22:27:22 <sipa> jurov: on it
1636 2013-07-09 22:27:51 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, when are you seeing performance issues?
1637 2013-07-09 22:29:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hm? I wonder what you're doing interesting. I have a testnet wallet with something like 700k TNBTC in it, and mostly the performance is not miserable.
1638 2013-07-09 22:31:43 <jiffe98> why would bitcoind be indicating it is downloading blocks when using regtest ?
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1648 2013-07-09 22:40:16 <gmaxwell> jiffe98: the indication is just cosmetic, doesn't actually signify anything important,
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1650 2013-07-09 22:42:31 <jiffe98> gmaxwell: that is the error that I get when I try to connect a miner to it though
1651 2013-07-09 22:42:54 Luke-Jr has joined
1652 2013-07-09 22:43:09 <gmaxwell> jiffe98: you cannot mine on a single isolated node.
1653 2013-07-09 22:43:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: your hashrate graphs are stuck.
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1656 2013-07-09 22:44:08 <jiffe98> gmaxwell: I have 2 nodes connected to eachother
1657 2013-07-09 22:45:07 <gmaxwell> hm that should be enough. BlueMatt does regtest not disable checkpoints?
1658 2013-07-09 22:45:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: i am well aware
1659 2013-07-09 22:45:36 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1660 2013-07-09 22:45:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: my VPS ran out of disk space... and my chaindb was corrupted
1661 2013-07-09 22:45:45 <sipa> rebuilding now
1662 2013-07-09 22:45:48 <gmaxwell> hurrah.
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1667 2013-07-09 22:48:00 <sipa> entirely off-topic, this is the most awesome mini-biography intro i've ever seen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Carton_de_Wiart
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1676 2013-07-09 22:50:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: soâ coins database was corrupted when you ran out of space?
1677 2013-07-09 22:50:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes
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1680 2013-07-09 22:54:27 <jiffe98> I set fEnable = false in checkpoints.cpp but that didn't seem to change things
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1686 2013-07-09 23:07:21 <jiffe98> something must have renabling fEnabled, forcing returns in those functions and regtest is accepting now
1687 2013-07-09 23:07:42 <gmaxwell> jiffe98: there is a commandline parameter to disable checkpoints.
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1693 2013-07-09 23:19:07 <jiffe98> gmaxwell: yep I found it, thanks
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