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  34 2013-07-11 00:27:36 <gmaxwell> uhh.
  35 2013-07-11 00:27:54 <gmaxwell> we appear to be awarding DOS for out of order blocks during IBD
  36 2013-07-11 00:28:13 <gmaxwell> or at least thats why my logs appears to be suggesting.
  37 2013-07-11 00:28:19 milone_ has joined
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  39 2013-07-11 00:29:01 <gmaxwell> oh hm.
  40 2013-07-11 00:29:13 <gmaxwell> no, it's from vin empties.
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  44 2013-07-11 00:39:15 <melvster> sorry know it's slightly off topic ... but wow btc just hit 90 </EOM>
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  50 2013-07-11 00:52:39 <The_Fly> omg and i was thinking of buying more just the other day
  51 2013-07-11 00:53:40 <The_Fly> what has caused the sudden ride?
  52 2013-07-11 00:53:42 <The_Fly> *rise
  53 2013-07-11 00:54:14 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  54 2013-07-11 00:54:19 <gmaxwell> When a mommy and a daddy love each other very much and want a bitcoin…
  55 2013-07-11 00:54:26 <The_Fly> lol
  56 2013-07-11 00:54:34 <The_Fly> quite a rise in the last hour
  57 2013-07-11 00:54:57 <The_Fly> buy signals
  58 2013-07-11 00:55:28 <The_Fly> the EMAs crossed again, that'll be it
  59 2013-07-11 00:56:31 johnsoft has joined
  60 2013-07-11 00:56:55 <nsh> may be related to this: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Bitcoin-de-kooperiert-mit-der-Fidor-Bank-1915408.html
  61 2013-07-11 00:57:09 <nsh> or cosmic rays, whatever
  62 2013-07-11 00:59:31 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
  63 2013-07-11 00:59:43 <melvster> The_Fly: the USD has fallen against all major currencies because of the Ben Bernank
  64 2013-07-11 00:59:59 weyland has joined
  65 2013-07-11 01:00:04 <melvster> seems he's got a bigger printer
  66 2013-07-11 01:05:47 <k9quaint_> The_Fly: I deemed that bitcoin must rise, thusly it has
  67 2013-07-11 01:07:25 melvster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
  68 2013-07-11 01:08:21 diki has joined
  69 2013-07-11 01:08:26 <diki> lol, the forum died
  70 2013-07-11 01:08:53 agnostic98 has joined
  71 2013-07-11 01:09:05 <k9quaint_> diki: it vexed me, so I smote it
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  74 2013-07-11 01:11:16 <The_Fly> it's shooting up
  75 2013-07-11 01:11:25 <The_Fly> unfortunately i can only buy through bitbargain.co.uk
  76 2013-07-11 01:11:48 PhantomSpark has joined
  77 2013-07-11 01:11:51 <The_Fly> uk bank transfer, prices a bit higher than gox
  78 2013-07-11 01:11:57 <The_Fly> https://bitbargain.co.uk/history
  79 2013-07-11 01:13:12 realzies is now known as realzies___
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  81 2013-07-11 01:13:18 <The_Fly> how high is this peak likely to rise, that's the question
  82 2013-07-11 01:14:35 sacrelege has joined
  83 2013-07-11 01:14:52 realzies___ is now known as realz
  84 2013-07-11 01:15:56 <The_Fly> nsh: well that was nice of Fidor Bank
  85 2013-07-11 01:16:06 <The_Fly> now if only i can convince banks here in scotland
  86 2013-07-11 01:16:14 peper has quit (Quit: leaving)
  87 2013-07-11 01:16:26 realz is now known as realz___________
  88 2013-07-11 01:16:26 * nsh smiles
  89 2013-07-11 01:16:49 peper has joined
  90 2013-07-11 01:16:52 <The_Fly> there are some people already trading in the uk, somehow
  91 2013-07-11 01:17:00 <The_Fly> https://bittylicious.com/
  92 2013-07-11 01:17:20 <The_Fly> is a registered company
  93 2013-07-11 01:17:23 realz___________ is now known as ________________
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 118 2013-07-11 01:46:43 <eqwl> Looking for people from Sweden or Scandinavia who wants to buy Bitcoin. / msg me
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 122 2013-07-11 01:50:59 <The_Fly> should that not be for the otc rooms?
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 125 2013-07-11 01:55:22 <The_Fly> i can import about 30 privkeys/sec with bitcoind on an ebs optimised instance
 126 2013-07-11 01:55:38 <warren> ebs?
 127 2013-07-11 01:55:41 <The_Fly> and getnewaddress is a bit faster
 128 2013-07-11 01:55:45 <The_Fly> elastic block storage
 129 2013-07-11 01:56:23 wamatt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 130 2013-07-11 01:56:25 <The_Fly> i suppose these speeds are better but still would not scale well unless i pregenerate a lot of addresses
 131 2013-07-11 01:56:56 <The_Fly> but then again, i am going to encourage users to spend off-blockchain and instead deposit for a balance
 132 2013-07-11 01:57:01 <warren> using the import key birthdate patch?
 133 2013-07-11 01:57:13 <The_Fly> does that speed things up?
 134 2013-07-11 01:57:16 <warren> yes
 135 2013-07-11 01:57:21 <The_Fly> i heard something about it, ok
 136 2013-07-11 01:57:26 <The_Fly> significantly?
 137 2013-07-11 01:57:30 <warren> not sure on its status
 138 2013-07-11 01:57:31 wamatt has joined
 139 2013-07-11 01:57:31 <warren> yes
 140 2013-07-11 01:57:55 <The_Fly> do you know the pullreq?
 141 2013-07-11 01:58:27 <The_Fly> i think i would definitely get better performance just handing out keys straight from the database
 142 2013-07-11 01:58:52 Applicat_ has joined
 143 2013-07-11 01:59:18 <The_Fly> but i still have to go back to bitcoind for confirmations
 144 2013-07-11 01:59:38 <The_Fly> *for checking a tx's #confs
 145 2013-07-11 02:00:02 o3u has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 147 2013-07-11 02:00:34 <The_Fly> unless, as asked earlier, it's simply a case of walking the chain for each transaction
 148 2013-07-11 02:01:18 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 149 2013-07-11 02:01:37 <The_Fly> or do i have to watch out for other things?
 150 2013-07-11 02:04:33 <The_Fly> assuming that bitcoind has already checked that the inputs are unspent
 151 2013-07-11 02:04:53 <The_Fly> (currently it announces them when they're first seen, and on first confirmation)
 152 2013-07-11 02:05:06 roconnor has joined
 153 2013-07-11 02:05:34 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 154 2013-07-11 02:08:33 <warren> The_Fly: IIRC that patch requires keys with a new thing added for the birthdate
 155 2013-07-11 02:08:43 <warren> The_Fly: so it avoids scanning before the birthday
 156 2013-07-11 02:08:53 <warren> bbl
 157 2013-07-11 02:08:58 <The_Fly> but im not asking it to scan
 158 2013-07-11 02:09:08 <The_Fly> with importprivkey
 159 2013-07-11 02:09:16 <The_Fly> and if getnewaddress scans, that's just silly
 160 2013-07-11 02:09:47 <The_Fly> it's perhaps RPC that's the bottleneck now
 161 2013-07-11 02:09:53 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, why are you importing keys?
 162 2013-07-11 02:10:04 <The_Fly> phantomcircuit: i have a bunch of coldstorage keys i want to use
 163 2013-07-11 02:10:29 <phantomcircuit> so it's a once off import?
 164 2013-07-11 02:10:34 <The_Fly> yes
 165 2013-07-11 02:10:44 <phantomcircuit> then who cares
 166 2013-07-11 02:10:45 <The_Fly> and once the transaction is done, bitcoind doesn't really need the key
 167 2013-07-11 02:11:05 <The_Fly> phantomcircuit: because the rate of 30/sec is not great if you have 100s/sec
 168 2013-07-11 02:11:18 <phantomcircuit> but you just said it's once off
 169 2013-07-11 02:11:18 <The_Fly> so i can pregenerate some and serve them a different way
 170 2013-07-11 02:11:34 <The_Fly> phantomcircuit: its once off per user, per transaction
 171 2013-07-11 02:11:42 <phantomcircuit> that's not once off
 172 2013-07-11 02:11:53 <The_Fly> ok, its not a once off import
 173 2013-07-11 02:11:58 <The_Fly> i thought that was obvious!
 174 2013-07-11 02:12:00 <The_Fly> ...
 175 2013-07-11 02:12:08 <The_Fly> otherwise why am i talking about rates?
 176 2013-07-11 02:12:22 <phantomcircuit> i assumed because you're impatient
 177 2013-07-11 02:12:24 <The_Fly> getnewaddress similarly runs about 30/sec
 178 2013-07-11 02:12:25 <phantomcircuit> which i am as well
 179 2013-07-11 02:12:28 <The_Fly> lol
 180 2013-07-11 02:12:33 <The_Fly> hehe, no not in this case
 181 2013-07-11 02:12:49 dparrish_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 182 2013-07-11 02:13:02 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, what's the application, maybe i can think of a more efficient way to do it
 183 2013-07-11 02:13:03 <The_Fly> i just shouldn't be this slow, and in this context it has to be RPC... no?
 184 2013-07-11 02:13:44 <The_Fly> users click deposit, they get an address, they see the balance...
 185 2013-07-11 02:14:02 <The_Fly> sometimes they may buy something, i dont want to keep funds on the server, so i use a queue of addresses
 186 2013-07-11 02:14:06 <The_Fly> and the importaddress patch
 187 2013-07-11 02:14:28 <The_Fly> in cases where i know they may not ask to cashout/withdraw
 188 2013-07-11 02:14:32 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: I told you what your problem was earlier, I thought. You've got a really slow disk, anything that writes to the wallet is synchronous to avoid losing data ... soooo.
 189 2013-07-11 02:14:38 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, so you're assigning the address to the user and not to a specific transaction?
 190 2013-07-11 02:14:51 <The_Fly> gmaxwell: and i told you that i went to test it on an ec2 ebs optimised instance
 191 2013-07-11 02:14:54 <The_Fly> lol
 192 2013-07-11 02:15:01 <The_Fly> and those are my results
 193 2013-07-11 02:15:09 wamatt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 194 2013-07-11 02:15:13 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 195 2013-07-11 02:15:48 <The_Fly> phantomcircuit: it gets assigned to a transaction yes
 196 2013-07-11 02:16:16 <The_Fly> so im thinking yes, i could do it outside bitcoind, but the question then is to ascertain #confs for a given transaction
 197 2013-07-11 02:16:23 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, so it's per transaction and not per user?
 198 2013-07-11 02:16:34 <The_Fly> its per transaction, the balance updates are per user
 199 2013-07-11 02:16:38 <The_Fly> its a bit of both, see.
 200 2013-07-11 02:16:45 <phantomcircuit> oh
 201 2013-07-11 02:16:48 <The_Fly> yes
 202 2013-07-11 02:16:50 <The_Fly> gmaxwell: ...
 203 2013-07-11 02:16:52 <The_Fly> real	0m0.029s
 204 2013-07-11 02:16:52 <The_Fly> user	0m0.004s
 205 2013-07-11 02:16:52 <The_Fly> sys	0m0.016s
 206 2013-07-11 02:16:56 <The_Fly> thats getnewaddress
 207 2013-07-11 02:17:02 <phantomcircuit> so everytime they click the button they get a new address?
 208 2013-07-11 02:17:06 <The_Fly> and timings are similar for importprivkey
 209 2013-07-11 02:17:10 <phantomcircuit> that's not going to work for very long
 210 2013-07-11 02:17:11 <The_Fly> phantomcircuit: yes
 211 2013-07-11 02:17:22 <phantomcircuit> you'll have millions of active keys in no time
 212 2013-07-11 02:17:33 <phantomcircuit> 99% of which wont be tied to a transaction
 213 2013-07-11 02:17:50 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: what are you talking about here?
 214 2013-07-11 02:18:54 <The_Fly> phantomcircuit: which is the nice thing about getaccountaddress
 215 2013-07-11 02:19:25 <The_Fly> as they only advance when the last received a tx
 216 2013-07-11 02:19:25 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: You're on a disk with an access time over >10ms, you're not going to get a sync write to the wallet to be faster than that.
 217 2013-07-11 02:19:29 <phantomcircuit> do NOT use the account feature
 218 2013-07-11 02:19:35 <phantomcircuit> it's impossible to maintain backups
 219 2013-07-11 02:19:39 <The_Fly> gmaxwell: im running this on an ec2 instance now
 220 2013-07-11 02:19:45 <The_Fly> ive said that twice now
 221 2013-07-11 02:19:55 <The_Fly> not on shitty laptop hd
 222 2013-07-11 02:20:05 <turboroot> The_Fly: lol ebs
 223 2013-07-11 02:20:07 <lianj> you think ec2 is fast=?
 224 2013-07-11 02:20:10 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: uh, it's not like EC2 has fast storage. dear god.
 225 2013-07-11 02:20:30 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, on a real server with an ssd i can do ~200 per second
 226 2013-07-11 02:20:41 <The_Fly> thats better but still..
 227 2013-07-11 02:20:42 <gmaxwell> Instead you've got a 5000 RPM GREEN disk connected over a network block device or something equally horiffic.
 228 2013-07-11 02:21:11 <turboroot> cpu is equally as bad
 229 2013-07-11 02:21:39 <The_Fly> indeed, but i've no experience working with dedicated servers
 230 2013-07-11 02:21:45 <turboroot> but that has little effect here afaik
 231 2013-07-11 02:21:47 <The_Fly> nor do i know if i can afford one good enough
 232 2013-07-11 02:22:03 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, nobody needs 200 new addresses per second
 233 2013-07-11 02:22:09 <The_Fly> no, that's right
 234 2013-07-11 02:22:11 <phantomcircuit> if you do then you need to change how your system works
 235 2013-07-11 02:22:14 <The_Fly> and if i did i would buffer them
 236 2013-07-11 02:22:16 <gmaxwell> In any case, if you're worried about being able to sustain 50 payments per second then... well thats a good problem to have.
 237 2013-07-11 02:22:29 <The_Fly> actually id like not to,
 238 2013-07-11 02:22:39 <gmaxwell> Especially since the entire bitcoin network can't sustain that kind of transaction volume...
 239 2013-07-11 02:22:40 <The_Fly> do not want to be accused of blockchain spam ;)
 240 2013-07-11 02:23:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, he's thinking that everytime someone clicks the "deposit" button they'll get a new address
 241 2013-07-11 02:23:15 <The_Fly> which doesn't have to be the case
 242 2013-07-11 02:23:15 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sure and?
 243 2013-07-11 02:23:18 dparrish has joined
 244 2013-07-11 02:23:25 <The_Fly> especially considering getaccountaddress helps me here
 245 2013-07-11 02:23:41 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, the "right" way to do this is to assign addresses to users and expire the address when you see any transaction which pays to that address
 246 2013-07-11 02:23:53 <The_Fly> sure, which is what getaccountaddress does.
 247 2013-07-11 02:24:01 <The_Fly> right??
 248 2013-07-11 02:24:07 <phantomcircuit> i dont think so
 249 2013-07-11 02:24:19 <turboroot> The_Fly: i would not use bitcoin's accounts for accounting
 250 2013-07-11 02:24:19 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: and if you glitch your wallet and restore from a backup you'll be giving out user A's address to user C.
 251 2013-07-11 02:24:21 <The_Fly> it behaved as you just described last time i checked
 252 2013-07-11 02:24:37 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it does, but see my comment.
 253 2013-07-11 02:24:41 <phantomcircuit> yeah it does
 254 2013-07-11 02:24:52 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yup that's exactly the issue
 255 2013-07-11 02:24:54 <The_Fly> yeah, so avoiding that case would be good gmaxwell
 256 2013-07-11 02:25:07 <The_Fly> and i was hoping not to need to use bitcoind's for accounting at all
 257 2013-07-11 02:25:17 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: so don't.
 258 2013-07-11 02:25:22 <The_Fly> i wont.
 259 2013-07-11 02:25:41 B0g4r7 has joined
 260 2013-07-11 02:26:07 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, do as i said, emulate the behavior of the getaccountaddress rpc call but maintain the user -> address mapping in a proper database
 261 2013-07-11 02:26:44 <The_Fly> yeah that works fine if i want to avoid dead/useless keys in my wallet
 262 2013-07-11 02:26:45 <phantomcircuit> it's really not that hard to do
 263 2013-07-11 02:26:56 <The_Fly> i know, the issue is just the rate i can import them
 264 2013-07-11 02:27:03 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, believe me that is your #1 goal performance wise
 265 2013-07-11 02:27:12 <The_Fly> i do believe you
 266 2013-07-11 02:27:18 <The_Fly> i asked about removing keys
 267 2013-07-11 02:27:18 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, import what?
 268 2013-07-11 02:27:25 <The_Fly> the coldstorage keys
 269 2013-07-11 02:27:31 <phantomcircuit> why would you be removing keys
 270 2013-07-11 02:27:32 <The_Fly> sorry... just addresses
 271 2013-07-11 02:28:08 <phantomcircuit> i still dont get what the issue is
 272 2013-07-11 02:28:29 <phantomcircuit> you pull a ton of keys into your db with the user -> address mapping and keep the user field NULL
 273 2013-07-11 02:28:29 <The_Fly> that via the rpc call the rate i can import addresses is slow
 274 2013-07-11 02:28:41 <phantomcircuit> then assign addresses to users when they need one from the pool in the db
 275 2013-07-11 02:28:44 <phantomcircuit> without touching rpc
 276 2013-07-11 02:28:49 <The_Fly> ok, so thats the pregeneration solution
 277 2013-07-11 02:28:54 <The_Fly> which i mentioned
 278 2013-07-11 02:29:00 <The_Fly> and am considering
 279 2013-07-11 02:29:00 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: again, if you're running into problems where 50 transactions per second is an issue for you, you can afford some hardware where it isn't.
 280 2013-07-11 02:29:05 <phantomcircuit> your peak load might be 30/second
 281 2013-07-11 02:29:10 <The_Fly> right now i am not running into that issue
 282 2013-07-11 02:29:17 <phantomcircuit> but your sustained average load will me more like 30/hour if you're lucky
 283 2013-07-11 02:29:18 <The_Fly> but with what id like to set up, maybe i could
 284 2013-07-11 02:29:40 <The_Fly> true, very true
 285 2013-07-11 02:29:46 <The_Fly> it's at least good to think about these problems though
 286 2013-07-11 02:29:54 <phantomcircuit> often not really
 287 2013-07-11 02:30:01 <gmaxwell> or you could just run bitcoin with eatmydata or whatever and it'll probably be fast, though any crash will corrupt your wallet.
 288 2013-07-11 02:30:11 <phantomcircuit> if it's actually an issue you'll be able to simply run multiple bitcoind instances
 289 2013-07-11 02:30:24 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well, less not reall when you're just outsourcing the thinking to suckers on IRC. :P
 290 2013-07-11 02:30:38 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, shrug
 291 2013-07-11 02:30:46 <phantomcircuit> the hard part is implementing it correctly
 292 2013-07-11 02:30:54 <phantomcircuit> bugs bugs everywhere
 293 2013-07-11 02:30:58 <The_Fly> gmaxwell: oi, im consulting with experts :P
 294 2013-07-11 02:31:11 <The_Fly> yes phantomcircuit multiple instances is another solution, not a nice one
 295 2013-07-11 02:31:16 <The_Fly> and hopefully not necessary for long
 296 2013-07-11 02:31:17 <phantomcircuit> anyways im just sitting here waiting for stuff to compile
 297 2013-07-11 02:31:40 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol it's 7pm i was about to say "shouldn't you be at work" but no
 298 2013-07-11 02:32:24 <gmaxwell> I am, you note that I've only commented a bit... and mostly to say "didn't I tell you before what your issue is." :P
 299 2013-07-11 02:32:59 <The_Fly> i think if microtransactions are supposed to be a big use-case for bitcoin those kinds of rates should be considered, perhaps not for a single project... but im experimenting with building merchant tools
 300 2013-07-11 02:33:06 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: running multiple daemons is a perfectly reasonable thing to do generally.
 301 2013-07-11 02:33:15 <The_Fly> if you want to scale to an arbitrary number of merchants it may have to scale to 50/sec
 302 2013-07-11 02:33:33 <phantomcircuit> microtransactions on the network just dont work very well
 303 2013-07-11 02:33:41 <The_Fly> ok sure, but even still
 304 2013-07-11 02:33:51 <phantomcircuit> but most people are ok with risking $10 to some third party they dont really trust
 305 2013-07-11 02:33:55 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 306 2013-07-11 02:34:15 <phantomcircuit> microtransactions dont really require the kind of trust that bitcoin builds at relatively high expense
 307 2013-07-11 02:34:31 <The_Fly> now thing is i was running the rpc calls in serial...
 308 2013-07-11 02:34:55 <gmaxwell> my laptop does 125 getnewaddresses per second over the rpc.
 309 2013-07-11 02:35:08 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 310 2013-07-11 02:35:25 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, always run the rpc calls in serial against bitcoind
 311 2013-07-11 02:35:36 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: thats fast enough that I don't consider it a concern. At all. If its something that matters to you, — well, we accept patches. Though you're not going to achieve high rates on something with slow IO.
 312 2013-07-11 02:35:44 patcon has joined
 313 2013-07-11 02:35:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: you should start a bitcoin-server-on-a-laptop selling business
 314 2013-07-11 02:36:14 <pigeons> what's your site The_Fly?
 315 2013-07-11 02:36:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: hah. "10x faster than the cloud!"
 316 2013-07-11 02:36:24 <The_Fly> lol
 317 2013-07-11 02:36:42 <The_Fly> pigeons: it's not complete, as you can see :)
 318 2013-07-11 02:36:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: btw, technically we don't need a sync for every new address
 319 2013-07-11 02:37:14 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is there something that detects whether keypool addresses have been used?
 320 2013-07-11 02:37:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: that can happen in the background after the keypool is topped up afaim
 321 2013-07-11 02:37:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: If we're to have zero risk of double issuing after a crash, though god knows— I dunno if we even provide that now.
 322 2013-07-11 02:37:48 <gmaxwell> I suppose we could prereserve and just lose those addresses if we crash.
 323 2013-07-11 02:37:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: i doubt we can provide that
 324 2013-07-11 02:38:00 <The_Fly> it seems reasonable
 325 2013-07-11 02:38:01 <sipa> phantomcircuit: not afaik
 326 2013-07-11 02:38:08 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: what seems reasonable?
 327 2013-07-11 02:38:24 <sipa> but for bip32 we'll need that
 328 2013-07-11 02:38:38 <The_Fly> not syncing just address import
 329 2013-07-11 02:38:44 Subo1978 has joined
 330 2013-07-11 02:38:54 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 331 2013-07-11 02:39:03 <The_Fly> and getnewaddress
 332 2013-07-11 02:39:09 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 333 2013-07-11 02:39:25 Subo1978_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 334 2013-07-11 02:39:26 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: well it means that if bitcoin crashes you may think it has things imported which it doesn't. And it's not obvious that it doesn't. So you'll miss transactions.
 335 2013-07-11 02:39:39 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 336 2013-07-11 02:39:45 <michagogo> sipa: "afaim"? I think that's a new one for me.
 337 2013-07-11 02:39:49 <michagogo> What does it mean?
 338 2013-07-11 02:39:52 <The_Fly> if it's already gone to the user yes
 339 2013-07-11 02:40:00 <The_Fly> phantomcircuit: yes but running in serial means im waiting for rpc connections to open and close
 340 2013-07-11 02:40:05 <sipa> it's a typo for afaik
 341 2013-07-11 02:40:06 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: likewise for getnewaddress— you'll give out the same address multiple times. Meaning you'll need an accounting layer on top to filter that out, and if you've done that, the performance should be irrelevant since you could just precompute and have it do the assignment.
 342 2013-07-11 02:40:08 <michagogo> Ah
 343 2013-07-11 02:40:11 <michagogo> lol
 344 2013-07-11 02:40:16 AusBitBank has joined
 345 2013-07-11 02:40:18 <phantomcircuit> The_Fly, rpc supports keep-alive
 346 2013-07-11 02:40:25 <The_Fly> ah...
 347 2013-07-11 02:40:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, which is exactly what i suggested he do :)
 348 2013-07-11 02:40:56 <The_Fly> i shall try using a client rather than from bitcoind on the shell
 349 2013-07-11 02:40:57 <phantomcircuit> it's a lot easier to keep something like postgresql consistent
 350 2013-07-11 02:41:02 <gmaxwell> yea, good advice.
 351 2013-07-11 02:41:19 <gmaxwell> well the databases actually have formal support for replication and such, so yea. duh. :P
 352 2013-07-11 02:41:41 <The_Fly> id be fine with keeping addresses in postgres, ive been experimenting with that
 353 2013-07-11 02:41:52 <The_Fly> but had been pulling them out, importing them to bitcoind, then issuing
 354 2013-07-11 02:42:22 <The_Fly> prepopulating a database from getnewaddress is good, that works
 355 2013-07-11 02:43:14 B0g4r7 has joined
 356 2013-07-11 02:43:48 <The_Fly> and i can repeat that with the cold storage addresses also
 357 2013-07-11 02:44:04 <The_Fly> preload them into the wallet
 358 2013-07-11 02:46:22 o3u_ has joined
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 362 2013-07-11 02:47:45 <The_Fly> unless there's a cost to keeping large numbers of unused keys in the wallet
 363 2013-07-11 02:47:58 <phantomcircuit> there is
 364 2013-07-11 02:48:00 <The_Fly> (ignoring load times)
 365 2013-07-11 02:48:12 <The_Fly> yes, you said
 366 2013-07-11 02:49:28 B0g4r7 has quit (Quit: B0g4r7)
 367 2013-07-11 02:49:41 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 368 2013-07-11 02:49:56 <The_Fly> so, as a way to avoid having to even import or getnewaddress im fine for watching for transactions
 369 2013-07-11 02:50:02 <The_Fly> (with walletnotify or zmq)
 370 2013-07-11 02:51:06 <The_Fly> but im wondering how i can (on each block) compute the number of transactions. is it the case that i can just walk the chain from the first block the transaction is mined into?
 371 2013-07-11 02:51:27 <The_Fly> (instead of RPC gettransaction for each open transaction on each block)
 372 2013-07-11 02:52:26 catcowllama has joined
 373 2013-07-11 02:52:27 catcow has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 374 2013-07-11 02:53:26 <The_Fly> or am i going to end up in trouble that way?
 375 2013-07-11 02:53:37 <The_Fly> with any reorg
 376 2013-07-11 02:54:26 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 377 2013-07-11 02:54:54 o3u_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 378 2013-07-11 02:54:55 zw has joined
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 380 2013-07-11 02:55:14 <The_Fly> as rare as they are...
 381 2013-07-11 02:55:21 <gmaxwell> hm, this is going much more slowly than the last time I tried it... https://people.xiph.org/~greg/2013.06.09.sync.tor.svg
 382 2013-07-11 02:55:51 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: reorgs happen every day, they are not rare.
 383 2013-07-11 02:56:16 <The_Fly> sorry, forks
 384 2013-07-11 02:56:20 Hunger- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 385 2013-07-11 02:57:06 <The_Fly> reorgs are happening because some chains grow longer
 386 2013-07-11 02:57:11 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 387 2013-07-11 02:57:16 o3u has joined
 388 2013-07-11 02:57:21 <gmaxwell> there is always a fork when there is a reorg.
 389 2013-07-11 02:57:39 <The_Fly> so transaction #confs can change
 390 2013-07-11 02:58:12 <The_Fly> and if im just keeping a list of blocks i see from bitcoind im not sure how to detect that
 391 2013-07-11 02:58:22 _milone has joined
 392 2013-07-11 02:58:23 <The_Fly> there's the schema posted here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38246.0
 393 2013-07-11 02:58:29 catcowllama has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 394 2013-07-11 02:58:33 <The_Fly> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38246.msg979542#msg979542
 395 2013-07-11 02:58:40 Hunger- has joined
 396 2013-07-11 02:58:49 catcow has joined
 397 2013-07-11 02:58:57 <The_Fly> he's just using a view to look at the chain length
 398 2013-07-11 02:59:19 <The_Fly> so i guess i can see if a tx is on a block on the longest chain
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 404 2013-07-11 03:02:38 <nanotube> by the way, people drop by on #multibit more often to ask questions, now that it's the default recommended client. and most of the time nobody's there to answer.
 405 2013-07-11 03:02:51 catcow has joined
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 407 2013-07-11 03:02:51 catcow has joined
 408 2013-07-11 03:03:01 Clown has joined
 409 2013-07-11 03:03:02 <nanotube> so... anyone who knows a few things about that client is invited to idle on #multibit
 410 2013-07-11 03:03:06 panzer has joined
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 416 2013-07-11 03:03:27 Gnaf_ has joined
 417 2013-07-11 03:03:43 <turboroot> nanotube: sorry, I left when you said "knows a few things about that client".
 418 2013-07-11 03:03:57 Maged has quit (Disconnected by services)
 419 2013-07-11 03:04:01 <nanotube> turboroot: lol well, "or is interested in helping out in any capacity" :)
 420 2013-07-11 03:04:05 Maged_ has joined
 421 2013-07-11 03:04:06 Azetab has joined
 422 2013-07-11 03:04:08 <nanotube> "or learning more about it"
 423 2013-07-11 03:04:10 Azetab has left ()
 424 2013-07-11 03:04:21 Maged_ is now known as Maged
 425 2013-07-11 03:04:24 <nanotube> or really just to lurk
 426 2013-07-11 03:04:39 RazielZ has joined
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 430 2013-07-11 03:05:23 thrasher`` has joined
 431 2013-07-11 03:05:34 <nanotube> just saddens me to see people drop by, ask, then leave when nobody answers...
 432 2013-07-11 03:05:54 <da2ce7> yeah, just eveyone who knows anything about multibit, please lurk in #multibit
 433 2013-07-11 03:05:57 ivan\_ has joined
 434 2013-07-11 03:05:58 <The_Fly> they just need to lurk harder
 435 2013-07-11 03:06:08 <zw> whats multibit
 436 2013-07-11 03:06:20 <The_Fly> https://multibit.org/index.html
 437 2013-07-11 03:06:42 <nanotube> zw: it's a bitcoin client, that is now the 'recommended' client for newcomers.
 438 2013-07-11 03:06:48 <nanotube> at least on the bitcoin.org website
 439 2013-07-11 03:07:13 wereHamster has joined
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 445 2013-07-11 03:12:06 ivan\_ is now known as ivan\
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 453 2013-07-11 03:13:59 troc has joined
 454 2013-07-11 03:14:43 <[\\\]> holy dust: https://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T
 455 2013-07-11 03:14:57 <michagogo> What was my quit message just now?
 456 2013-07-11 03:15:08 <phantomcircuit> ◀━━ Quits: michagogo (~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo) (Remote host closed the connection)
 457 2013-07-11 03:15:13 <michagogo> [\\\]: Correct horse battery staple?
 458 2013-07-11 03:15:49 <[\\\]> I don't know.  I didn't tag it. I merely stumbled upon the address.
 459 2013-07-11 03:15:54 <The_Fly> brainwallet
 460 2013-07-11 03:16:14 sacrelege has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 461 2013-07-11 03:16:34 <[\\\]> Total Input	0.01998 BTC
 462 2013-07-11 03:16:34 <[\\\]> Total Output	0.00734 BTC
 463 2013-07-11 03:16:34 <[\\\]> Fees	0.01264 BTC
 464 2013-07-11 03:16:41 <[\\\]> how's that for making sense?
 465 2013-07-11 03:17:16 <pigeons> yeah didnt mnemonicode
 466 2013-07-11 03:17:18 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 467 2013-07-11 03:17:39 catcow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 472 2013-07-11 03:22:28 zw has joined
 473 2013-07-11 03:23:31 Eiii has joined
 474 2013-07-11 03:23:55 <sipa> [\\\]: what doesn't make sense?
 475 2013-07-11 03:24:15 <sipa> inputs = outputs + fees
 476 2013-07-11 03:24:43 Application has joined
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 478 2013-07-11 03:28:15 agnostic98 has joined
 479 2013-07-11 03:28:37 <gmaxwell> sort of a bit surprised to see that listtransactions on a wallet with generated coins shows them as orphan when it hasn't caught up to the blocks containing them.
 480 2013-07-11 03:30:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, what would you suggest?
 481 2013-07-11 03:30:55 ielo has joined
 482 2013-07-11 03:34:25 <gmaxwell> I would not have expected _orphan blocks_ to hit the wallet. Extinct ones (with orphan coinbases). There is actually a DOS attack here, I think.
 483 2013-07-11 03:34:58 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 484 2013-07-11 03:35:07 <gmaxwell> e.g. I could send you orphan diff 1 blocks with 1mb coinbase txns paying you and add data to your wallet.
 485 2013-07-11 03:35:22 <gmaxwell> er I'd expect extinct ones to hit it but not unconnected ones.
 486 2013-07-11 03:35:46 <gmaxwell> Not a serious DOS attack, at least.
 487 2013-07-11 03:37:37 catcow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 488 2013-07-11 03:37:40 <nsh> hmm
 489 2013-07-11 03:37:51 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 490 2013-07-11 03:37:59 TheSeven has joined
 491 2013-07-11 03:38:07 <nsh> it could be used to game sites that rely on wallet amounts for business logic
 492 2013-07-11 03:38:13 <nsh> possibly
 493 2013-07-11 03:39:30 catcow has joined
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 497 2013-07-11 03:46:19 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 502 2013-07-11 03:51:42 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 503 2013-07-11 03:55:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: "orphan" for transactions means that the generating transaction is not in the best chain
 504 2013-07-11 03:55:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: that is the cause for the confusing in terminology
 505 2013-07-11 03:55:54 <sipa> the blocks are not orphan, but their coinbases are
 506 2013-07-11 03:56:20 <sipa> orphan blocks (in the proper meaning of orphan) never hit the wallet
 507 2013-07-11 03:57:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: but these are orphan blocks, afaict.
 508 2013-07-11 03:57:37 <gmaxwell> I'm resyncing a node from 0, and there are some totally valid new generations from today that are orphan blocks because I haven't caught up to them yet
 509 2013-07-11 03:57:46 <gmaxwell> and they were added to the wallet as "orphan"
 510 2013-07-11 03:58:50 <gmaxwell>     "blocks" : 224197,
 511 2013-07-11 03:59:03 <gmaxwell>         "category" : "orphan",
 512 2013-07-11 03:59:07 <gmaxwell>         "txid" : "6900ce2c2f106d7187818f0bb226fb5ab3311fe5c8df7618bca2d538e5b9d1a5",
 513 2013-07-11 03:59:17 <gmaxwell> which is block 245900
 514 2013-07-11 04:00:48 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 515 2013-07-11 04:02:06 <gmaxwell> This surprised me, I expected that an not yet connected block (currently orphan) would not exist from the perspective of the wallet code.
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 521 2013-07-11 04:09:37 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 526 2013-07-11 04:19:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: well that's one way to look at it
 527 2013-07-11 04:19:20 <sipa> but it's just a block that doesn't exist at all
 528 2013-07-11 04:19:30 <sipa> yet the transaction is in the wallet
 529 2013-07-11 04:19:41 <sipa> so the transaction is orphaned
 530 2013-07-11 04:19:55 <sipa> regardless of the reason why the block can't be found
 531 2013-07-11 04:22:12 <sipa> but real orphan blocks (lone received blocks) are not processed until their oarents are connected, so won't trigger an add to fhe wallet
 532 2013-07-11 04:23:02 <gmaxwell> Then how did this transaction end up added to my wallet? My node has only synced to 224197. That txn is block 245900— its parents aren't connected yet.
 533 2013-07-11 04:23:52 <sipa> i assume the wallet has seen a later blockchain db
 534 2013-07-11 04:25:47 <gmaxwell> It had seen later than 224197.  But it had not seen 245900 or 245899 unless I'm timezone confused.
 535 2013-07-11 04:26:11 <sipa> i see no other explanation
 536 2013-07-11 04:29:04 jaekwon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 537 2013-07-11 04:29:36 <gmaxwell> ah. indeed. I thought it was only the 10th in UTC.
 538 2013-07-11 04:29:47 <gmaxwell> (my US upgrade broke my clock it seems)
 539 2013-07-11 04:30:26 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 540 2013-07-11 04:32:03 bigz has joined
 541 2013-07-11 04:32:06 Applicat_ has joined
 542 2013-07-11 04:32:10 <bigz> hey guys question, I am using .8.3 bitcoin QT and sent a transaction "to myself" (sent all coins to one address in wallet), and this TX hasn't showed up yet, 3 hours later, and basically none of my other transactions are going through either
 543 2013-07-11 04:32:16 <bigz> and by not showed up , I mean, unconfirmed but also literally not on blockchain.info
 544 2013-07-11 04:32:50 <IanCormac> This is not really a question for #bitcoin-dev
 545 2013-07-11 04:33:02 <IanCormac> You already asked in #bitcoin; keep it there
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 553 2013-07-11 04:54:05 TradeFortress has joined
 554 2013-07-11 04:54:09 robbin_ has joined
 555 2013-07-11 04:54:17 <TradeFortress> Would there be any conflicts if I ran multiple bitcoind that contain the same addresses
 556 2013-07-11 04:54:26 <TradeFortress> To load balance bitcoind and make it scale.
 557 2013-07-11 04:54:36 robbin_ is now known as robbin
 558 2013-07-11 04:54:50 macboz has joined
 559 2013-07-11 04:54:59 <Scrat> TradeFortress: yes
 560 2013-07-11 04:55:04 macboz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 561 2013-07-11 04:55:28 <TradeFortress> Scrat, okay. so I'll have to shard it then.
 562 2013-07-11 04:59:12 <Scrat> or use something that handles big wallets better (bitsofproof, bitcoinj)
 563 2013-07-11 05:02:09 andyh2 has joined
 564 2013-07-11 05:04:28 OldEnK has joined
 565 2013-07-11 05:04:59 <TradeFortress> BOP enterprise == community, just hosted?
 566 2013-07-11 05:08:08 <Scrat> looks like it
 567 2013-07-11 05:08:32 <Scrat> you can always throw more hardware at bitcoind though
 568 2013-07-11 05:08:43 <Scrat> I have found IO latency to be the single biggest contributor
 569 2013-07-11 05:09:40 xenland has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 570 2013-07-11 05:09:51 <gjs278> wtf
 571 2013-07-11 05:09:57 <gjs278> what do you need multiple instances of bitcoind for
 572 2013-07-11 05:10:07 <sipa> huge wallets
 573 2013-07-11 05:10:15 <sipa> unfortunately
 574 2013-07-11 05:10:31 xenland has joined
 575 2013-07-11 05:11:07 <gjs278> so if I gen like 1m vanity addresses on my personal wallet, I'd have major issues keeping up with rpc commands?
 576 2013-07-11 05:11:15 <TradeFortress> Scrat, yeah, I'm going to do that until it's no longer feasible. I'll then start sharding
 577 2013-07-11 05:11:34 <gjs278> and what holds it back, cpu or io at that point
 578 2013-07-11 05:11:38 <TradeFortress> somehow I corrupted a wallet.dat copied between servers. hmm.
 579 2013-07-11 05:11:38 <sipa> gjs278: that'll mostly just slowdown startup
 580 2013-07-11 05:11:54 <sipa> TradeFortress: different versions?
 581 2013-07-11 05:11:54 <TradeFortress> it's transactions that matter apparently
 582 2013-07-11 05:12:17 <TradeFortress> sipa, all v0.8.3 through I did accidently run v0.3 something once on that wallet.dat. will copy it again
 583 2013-07-11 05:12:17 <sipa> TradeFortress:was the source bitcoind running?
 584 2013-07-11 05:12:24 <TradeFortress> no, shut it down first
 585 2013-07-11 05:12:27 <sipa> ok
 586 2013-07-11 05:12:39 <gjs278> what kills the performance, cpu or io for the huge wallets
 587 2013-07-11 05:12:59 <TradeFortress> gjs278, pretty sure IO. cause it's just looking things up
 588 2013-07-11 05:13:08 <sipa> well rpc itself is limited because of tcp connection setup
 589 2013-07-11 05:13:29 <gjs278> if it's io... how big can a wallet.dat even get
 590 2013-07-11 05:13:42 <sipa> anything balance related is O(n) in the number of transactions
 591 2013-07-11 05:14:03 <gjs278> how big does your wallet.dat have to be filesize wise to give you trouble
 592 2013-07-11 05:14:15 <sipa> and any wallet modification needs a sync of the wallet to disk, limited by io speed
 593 2013-07-11 05:14:29 <sipa> the size of the wallet doesn't really matter for that
 594 2013-07-11 05:14:47 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 595 2013-07-11 05:14:51 <sipa> it's more that intensive use is a problem
 596 2013-07-11 05:15:04 <gjs278> because the disk can't keep up
 597 2013-07-11 05:15:07 <sipa> not really the wallet being large itself
 598 2013-07-11 05:15:38 <sipa> though at some point
 599 2013-07-11 05:15:42 <Scrat> sipa: as wallet outputs get spent does n get smaller?
 600 2013-07-11 05:15:47 xenland has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 601 2013-07-11 05:15:51 <sipa> which n?
 602 2013-07-11 05:16:10 <gjs278> well... if it's really disk stuff there are ways around that, like raiding1 mdadm to a ramdisk and delaying the write on the hard disk for a good minute
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 604 2013-07-11 05:16:27 <Scrat> sipa: you know what i meant!
 605 2013-07-11 05:16:35 <sipa> Scrat: i do not
 606 2013-07-11 05:17:04 <sipa> gjs278: which will destroy the durability property that makes it slow in the first place
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 608 2013-07-11 05:17:13 <gjs278> I don't see how multiple bitcoinds will help with scaling if the problem truly disk problems
 609 2013-07-11 05:17:55 <Scrat> sharding would complicate everything including hot wallet management
 610 2013-07-11 05:17:58 <gjs278> if the disk is slammed for 1 it will be slammed for all, more people trying to access a hard drive can't really help
 611 2013-07-11 05:18:04 <Scrat> sipa: the whole deal with linear transaction scaling
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 614 2013-07-11 05:18:16 <sipa> Scrat: all depends on whcih operation is limited
 615 2013-07-11 05:18:32 <sipa> for coin selection, only unspent outputs count
 616 2013-07-11 05:18:43 <sipa> for balance calculations, all transactions count
 617 2013-07-11 05:18:54 <Scrat> ah thats good
 618 2013-07-11 05:19:00 <Scrat> you shouldnt be spamming balance anyway
 619 2013-07-11 05:19:03 <sipa> which is ridiculous
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 631 2013-07-11 05:28:09 <TradeFortress> i wonder how exchanges and pools are getting bitcoind to scale
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 635 2013-07-11 05:29:51 <Scrat> well for one, they dont use bitcoind
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 638 2013-07-11 05:32:48 <Scrat> TradeFortress: is it locking up when sending?
 639 2013-07-11 05:33:10 <TradeFortress> Scrat, I've had 3 deadlocks after sending
 640 2013-07-11 05:33:20 <TradeFortress> I'm resetting up the bitcoind instance to see if that's the problem
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 643 2013-07-11 05:34:59 <Scrat> is the server being used for anything else? IOwait kills bitcoind
 644 2013-07-11 05:35:07 <Scrat> also SSDs will provide a _HUGE_ boost
 645 2013-07-11 05:36:08 <TradeFortress> good idea
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 649 2013-07-11 05:36:53 <TradeFortress> Scrat, you run coinroll.it right?
 650 2013-07-11 05:37:02 <Scrat> yes
 651 2013-07-11 05:43:43 <TradeFortress> you need bigger max bets.
 652 2013-07-11 05:44:16 <gjs278> bigger max bets = bank goes broke
 653 2013-07-11 05:45:51 <TradeFortress> not if the house has more bank
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 666 2013-07-11 06:48:47 <bigz> guys my jsonrpc keeps throwing exception on dumpprivkey
 667 2013-07-11 06:48:55 <bigz> and walletpassphrase
 668 2013-07-11 06:50:05 <bigz> im even trying locking it and reentering passphrase
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 673 2013-07-11 06:54:04 <sipa> which exception
 674 2013-07-11 06:55:23 <turboroot> sipa: he's just providing a failure stacktrace given by the client, which doesn't help
 675 2013-07-11 06:55:35 <turboroot> [01:23:12] <bigz>	 Stack trace: #0 /var/www/bak/dump_priv_keys.php(36): jsonRPCClient->__call('dumpprivkey', Array) #1 /var/www/bak/dump_priv_keys.php(36): jsonRPCClient->dumpprivkey('1
 676 2013-07-11 06:58:13 <sipa> the actual rpc error would be more useful
 677 2013-07-11 06:58:20 <bigz> where can I grab that from
 678 2013-07-11 06:58:23 <bigz> I am using the php jsonrpc
 679 2013-07-11 06:58:30 <bigz> CLI is just throwing stack trace
 680 2013-07-11 06:58:47 <sipa> try using bitcoind instwead
 681 2013-07-11 06:59:02 <sipa> or some library that correctly deals with exceptions
 682 2013-07-11 06:59:07 <SomeoneWeird> lolll
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 688 2013-07-11 07:17:35 <phantomcircuit> tradeafter sending?
 689 2013-07-11 07:17:41 <phantomcircuit> oh he left
 690 2013-07-11 07:18:32 <phantomcircuit> pretty sure he was hitting the IsConfirmed issue
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 695 2013-07-11 07:32:37 <nsh> phantomcircuit, is your cache for IsConfirmed not ack'd yet
 696 2013-07-11 07:32:38 <nsh> ?
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 699 2013-07-11 07:35:00 <phantomcircuit> nsh, i dont think i actually submitted a pull request
 700 2013-07-11 07:35:06 <phantomcircuit> effort
 701 2013-07-11 07:35:26 <nsh> yeah, most of my best code contributions remain in the hypothetical branch
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 704 2013-07-11 07:35:44 <nsh> i find the github interface in my imagination to be much more efficient
 705 2013-07-11 07:35:54 <phantomcircuit> heh
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 802 2013-07-11 11:42:04 <Moo-_-> what's policy regarding bitcoin.it wiki updates?
 803 2013-07-11 11:43:35 <BlueMatt> if you fuck up, the bitcoin central bank will seize all your coins
 804 2013-07-11 11:43:41 <BlueMatt> (but, seriously, we dont have one...)
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 807 2013-07-11 11:51:56 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, hola
 808 2013-07-11 11:52:03 <The_Fly> lol
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 810 2013-07-11 11:52:26 <BlueMatt> hi?
 811 2013-07-11 11:52:58 <SomeoneWeird> BlueMatt, lold
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 853 2013-07-11 13:36:52 <asdsdqqwe> قوات الدفاع الذاتى
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 868 2013-07-11 13:46:22 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> AlexNagy: you can't apply the same logic to bitcoin as you can for physical commodities
 869 2013-07-11 13:46:25 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> AlexNagy: i totally agree lost coins increase the value of non lost coins
 870 2013-07-11 13:46:27 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> BTC has value because it has a limit on the amount of BTC. A limit which will never increase. Through lost coins, the total amount available for transactions will decrease, therefore increasing the value of the remaining supply. As long as BTC is a currency demand will remain the same or go up (or go down depending on the mood of the market) but the value will continue to increase as they become rarer.
 871 2013-07-11 13:46:29 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> AlexNagy: i just don't see how lost coins are a "problem" that need to be "worried about", in short, they don't matter
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 873 2013-07-11 13:46:31 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> hidio
 874 2013-07-11 13:46:34 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> epscy: I didn't say lost coins were a problem per say, but in the end their could be so little left as to make them too expensive for the every-man to use them.
 875 2013-07-11 13:46:36 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> AlexNagy: bitcoin is also theoretically infinitely divisable
 876 2013-07-11 13:46:38 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> AlexNagy: so its not like if too many get lost the whole thing will freeze up
 877 2013-07-11 13:46:40 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> spreelanka: yes, you can. // epscy this is true but currently are only divisable into 100,000,000 units, right?
 878 2013-07-11 13:46:42 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> قوات الدفاع الذاتى
 879 2013-07-11 13:46:45 <asdsdqqwe> <asdsdqqwe> epscy: I think eventually that will be the case, though.
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 886 2013-07-11 13:52:48 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 896 2013-07-11 14:00:32 <TD> good morning
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 913 2013-07-11 14:14:21 <Michhell> i habe a question: which ist the bitcoind beta version
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 917 2013-07-11 14:16:26 <sipa> 0.8.3
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 920 2013-07-11 14:20:33 <Michhell> sipa on the link it comes only such signs:
 921 2013-07-11 14:20:35 <Michhell> فأرفأر
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 925 2013-07-11 14:24:51 <Michhell> dev onlin?
 926 2013-07-11 14:25:57 <sipa> i don't speak arabian
 927 2013-07-11 14:26:18 <TD> arabic
 928 2013-07-11 14:26:55 <sipa> see, i don't speak it!
 929 2013-07-11 14:27:03 <sipa> TD: thanks :)
 930 2013-07-11 14:27:06 <michagogo> Arabiyeh
 931 2013-07-11 14:27:12 <TD> :)
 932 2013-07-11 14:27:22 <michagogo> ;;bc,blocks
 933 2013-07-11 14:27:23 <gribble> 246040
 934 2013-07-11 14:27:42 <michagogo> Grr, I hate when the client sync just freezes
 935 2013-07-11 14:28:00 <Michhell> lokote_jones: -*- Ascendion stuffs lolita997711 head first into a jar of vaseline and screws the lid on
 936 2013-07-11 14:28:08 <michagogo> There should be a way to see who you're currently syncing from
 937 2013-07-11 14:28:27 <michagogo> And cut them loose (or at least have the client switch away from them for initial sync)
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 939 2013-07-11 14:29:16 <sipa> Michhell: do you have any idea what you're pasting?
 940 2013-07-11 14:29:26 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 941 2013-07-11 14:29:46 <michagogo> Also: I should really get around to figuring out how to best fine-tune my pings
 942 2013-07-11 14:31:10 <Michhell> sipa: thats wrote Ascendion
 943 2013-07-11 14:31:56 <sipa> Michhell: that was not my question
 944 2013-07-11 14:32:10 <Michhell> whats your question
 945 2013-07-11 14:32:25 <sipa> whether you know what you're pasting
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 947 2013-07-11 14:33:15 <Michhell> sipa: i know it. and you? i found it here from some ape
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 950 2013-07-11 14:33:52 <sipa> don't paste such things please, even if you're just copy pasting
 951 2013-07-11 14:34:07 <sipa> now, what is your question?
 952 2013-07-11 14:34:34 <Michhell> كل شيء في هذه القناة عنصريون
 953 2013-07-11 14:34:39 <Michhell> translate this
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 955 2013-07-11 14:34:55 <Michhell> ఈ ఛానెల్లో అన్ని racists ఉన్నాయి
 956 2013-07-11 14:35:12 <Michhell> ok i stop it
 957 2013-07-11 14:35:57 <sipa> Michhell: do you have an actual question?
 958 2013-07-11 14:36:05 <Michhell> yes
 959 2013-07-11 14:37:28 <Michhell> can i sync the client over 3G on sea?
 960 2013-07-11 14:37:38 <Michhell> or in an Iarplane?
 961 2013-07-11 14:37:46 <sipa> in theory, yes, but it will be very slow
 962 2013-07-11 14:38:22 <Michhell> if i print out the privat key. how many pages ar this?
 963 2013-07-11 14:38:53 <michagogo> Michhell: A bitcoin private key can be printed on a small strip of paper
 964 2013-07-11 14:39:06 <Michhell> ok.
 965 2013-07-11 14:39:28 <michagogo> A raw private key looks something like 0C28FCA386C7A227600B2FE50B7CAE11EC86D3BF1FBE471BE89827E19D72AA1D
 966 2013-07-11 14:39:54 <michagogo> While a Wallet Import Format private key, the more common form for private keys, looks like 5HueCGU8rMjxEXxiPuD5BDku4MkFqeZyd4dZ1jvhTVqvbTLvyTJ
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 968 2013-07-11 14:40:39 <Michhell> if i would build a bomb howmany btc did i neet for c4?
 969 2013-07-11 14:41:39 <Michhell> whcih is the better target? nsa , cia or hsa or  fbi
 970 2013-07-11 14:41:48 <sipa> can you stay on-topic?
 971 2013-07-11 14:41:49 <michagogo> Michhell: That's off-topic for both #bitcoin-dev and freenode. Please stop.
 972 2013-07-11 14:42:10 <michagogo> Michhell: Also, please don't spam #bitcoin
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1069 2013-07-11 17:04:04 <midnightmagic> I have two bitcoin nodes, A and B. They are fairly distant from one another--as far apart as east and west coast U.S. I would like to understand what's going on with the network between the two of them. Is there a single tool which semi-automatically measures the network characteristics between two endpoints? Say, exercises MTU, fiddles with TCP parameters, traceroutes to examine per-hop latencies (as much as possible) including
1070 2013-07-11 17:04:10 <midnightmagic> TCP, does icmp echo, tries to measure for buffer bloat issues, that sort of thing?
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1072 2013-07-11 17:06:22 <Ry4an> mtr isn't bad
1073 2013-07-11 17:06:28 <Ry4an> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR_(Software)
1074 2013-07-11 17:06:49 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: the closest I'm aware of to what you're asking for— in terms of benchmarking— is http://www.uperf.org/ or http://code.google.com/p/iperf/
1075 2013-07-11 17:07:39 <gmaxwell> Yea, mtr is pretty handy. Also, if you want long term latency/loss graphs— I'm fond of smokeping.
1076 2013-07-11 17:08:30 <Ry4an> ooh, I run ping in a loop on a few links about which I worry.  I'll have to look into that.
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1078 2013-07-11 17:09:56 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: fping (which I think smokeping uses in the background) is pretty useful for "ping N things I care about"
1079 2013-07-11 17:11:05 <Ry4an> usually I'm fighting w/ ISPs about packetloss, so I do 10 pings every 2 minutes forever and graph the loss, but doing that w/ bash/grep feels like reinventing the wheel
1080 2013-07-11 17:11:41 <Ry4an> not that it's a complex wheel of course, but still nice to have something that handles the history/graphing for me.
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1086 2013-07-11 17:27:56 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell, Ry4an: Thanks.
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1127 2013-07-11 18:34:03 <DoctorBTC> so, every 2 weeks or so I fire up bitcoin-qt on osx, only to find something corrupted or a crash on launch.  I am now in the habit of backing up the entire 'Bitcoin' folder from 'Application Support'.  Is this normal user behaviour?
1128 2013-07-11 18:34:42 <DoctorBTC> This morning it happened.  I do recall that the client was catching up when I had to quit out of it a few days ago....
1129 2013-07-11 18:35:31 <DoctorBTC> btw, restoring my backup of the blockchain and all those files works like a charm, it just has to resync.
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1134 2013-07-11 18:40:12 <gmaxwell> DoctorBTC: There is an intermittent leveldb corruption problem on OSX (at least). Most reported incidents seem to be from systems that have gone into hybernate but not come back from it.
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1136 2013-07-11 18:42:12 <gwillen> DoctorBTC: As a data point, I'm on OS X and don't have this issue
1137 2013-07-11 18:42:21 <DoctorBTC> gmaxwell: interesting.  I know for sure that the last time I ran qt, it was syncing 2 days behind.  I did 'File > quit' and it looked like it closed down nice.
1138 2013-07-11 18:43:21 <gmaxwell> Well, I did say 'most'. We don't know the cause and so there may be other cases. Its hard to get good information— I assume most people don't report it.
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1140 2013-07-11 18:43:39 <DoctorBTC> gwillen: lucky you. I just make it a habit to backup the entire directory whenever I quit, but only if it is currently synced
1141 2013-07-11 18:44:00 <DoctorBTC> gmaxwell: i'll report it next time ;)
1142 2013-07-11 18:44:09 <gwillen> DoctorBTC: well, I have systemwide backups, too, so if it explodes I'll restore
1143 2013-07-11 18:44:19 <gwillen> (you probably should have backups too :-)
1144 2013-07-11 18:44:19 <ll> it happens to me almost every time i quit and relaunch :/
1145 2013-07-11 18:44:32 <gmaxwell> ll: What hardware, what OS/version ?
1146 2013-07-11 18:44:56 <ll> 13" mbp, 10.8.4
1147 2013-07-11 18:45:36 <DoctorBTC> 27" imac, i5 (2009) running 10.6.x
1148 2013-07-11 18:46:50 <DoctorBTC> ll: on mac as well?
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1151 2013-07-11 18:48:00 <ll> yes that is the m in mbp
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1164 2013-07-11 19:05:16 <DoctorBTC> ll: sorry, i have a reading disorder.
1165 2013-07-11 19:05:35 <DoctorBTC> i thought that was gwillen replying
1166 2013-07-11 19:06:45 <gwillen> DoctorBTC: yeah I'm on a 15" mbp
1167 2013-07-11 19:06:53 <gwillen> on 10.6.x
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1352 2013-07-11 21:07:30 <midnightmagic> There used to be treatises on the subject, but damned if I can find them now. Is there a list somewhere of all the different interesting classes of attacks that are commonly used, and explanations of typical defenses? There seems to be a tremendous amount of expertise rolled up in openssl, for example, but the expertise itself, while coded in the source, doesn't seem to be explicitly described.
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1354 2013-07-11 21:08:20 <gmaxwell> attacks against what??
1355 2013-07-11 21:08:23 <midnightmagic> By attacks I mean "buffer overflow," "off-by-1", "signed integer"..
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1358 2013-07-11 21:09:45 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: unverified input variables, kernel memory recovery, ptrace+friends, cpu undefined behaviour exploits (as described by theo deraadt and matt dillon in that slashdot story all that time ago..)
1359 2013-07-11 21:09:56 reneg is now known as Guest6617
1360 2013-07-11 21:10:05 <midnightmagic> timing attacks, race conditions blah blah
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1362 2013-07-11 21:10:32 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: openssl is not particularly hardened against the things you've listed, except for timing attacks. In fact, it intentionally used undefined behavior.
1363 2013-07-11 21:11:15 <gmaxwell> In any case, you probably want the stuff listed on securecoding.cert.org
1364 2013-07-11 21:11:25 Guest26553 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1365 2013-07-11 21:11:50 <gmaxwell> E.g. https://www.securecoding.cert.org/confluence/display/seccode/CERT+C+Secure+Coding+Standard
1366 2013-07-11 21:11:58 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: But the exploits that it's corrected in its own code, encode some of the expertise required to fix them. But short of slogging slowly through external secunia/etc advisories, .. I think too many projects fix the issue and then sweep it under the rug, where people have a harder time learning from it when designing other software..
1367 2013-07-11 21:12:09 <midnightmagic> oo  that's nice.
1368 2013-07-11 21:12:53 <gmaxwell> OpenSSL isn't the last place I'd recommend people look for defensive programming, but its close to it.
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1370 2013-07-11 21:13:29 <midnightmagic> The OpenBSD team has developed a tremendous pool of expertise and collected it in one place, but it's just a collective knowledge in their heads.
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1373 2013-07-11 21:15:37 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: So far an excellent collection of summarized exploits and classes of exploit exists in the pkgsrc vulnerabilities database, but.. it just *lists* the problems. It only implies where the solutions are.
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1375 2013-07-11 21:16:07 <gmaxwell> huh, it's mostly _concrete recommendations_.
1376 2013-07-11 21:16:30 <k9quaint_> luke is mean!
1377 2013-07-11 21:16:31 <gmaxwell> E.g. https://www.securecoding.cert.org/confluence/display/seccode/INT04-C.+Enforce+limits+on+integer+values+originating+from+untrusted+sources
1378 2013-07-11 21:16:45 <gmaxwell> title tells you what to do, it gives an example of it done wrong, and an example of doing it right.
1379 2013-07-11 21:16:50 milone_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1380 2013-07-11 21:17:19 <k9quaint_> I just call Atoi and throw semi-colons and curly braces at it
1381 2013-07-11 21:17:24 <gmaxwell> k9quaint_: hm?
1382 2013-07-11 21:17:25 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: So, more disconnected knowledge except for the "Related Vulnerabilities" link. That's pretty awesome.
1383 2013-07-11 21:18:03 <midnightmagic> https://www.kb.cert.org/vulnotes/bymetric?searchview&query=FIELD+KEYWORDS+contains+INT04-C   booo no results found
1384 2013-07-11 21:18:04 <k9quaint_> gmaxwell: when I get numbers in JSON from zee internets
1385 2013-07-11 21:18:16 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: people aren't super diligent at identifying these things.
1386 2013-07-11 21:19:59 TheLordOfTime has joined
1387 2013-07-11 21:20:13 <midnightmagic> Ooo there's a book.
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1389 2013-07-11 21:22:01 <midnightmagic> MEM08-C. Use realloc() only to resize dynamically allocated arrays || whoah I didn't even know that was possible.
1390 2013-07-11 21:22:53 <midnightmagic> POS33-C. Do not use vfork()     629 hahaha I love it.
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1393 2013-07-11 21:27:03 <gmaxwell> vfork is "we were too lame to implement copy on write in our kernel, but too stubborn to implement a non-forking exec model"
1394 2013-07-11 21:30:00 <nsh> <burns> it was the blurst of both worlds. what?! blurst?! someone fire these monkeys...
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1443 2013-07-11 22:30:16 <Luke-Jr> 2013-07-11 21:59:31 keypool added key 858, size=858
1444 2013-07-11 22:30:18 <Luke-Jr> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::runtime_error'
1445 2013-07-11 22:30:19 <Luke-Jr>   what():  CWallet::GenerateNewKey() : AddKey failed
1446 2013-07-11 22:30:21 <Luke-Jr> :/
1447 2013-07-11 22:30:28 ericmuyser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1448 2013-07-11 22:30:37 <sipa> wut
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1451 2013-07-11 22:32:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I think the wallet locked itself while it was refilling lol
1452 2013-07-11 22:32:54 <Luke-Jr> then segfault
1453 2013-07-11 22:34:51 <saivann> Someone rebooted BlueMatt virtual servers? The jekyll machine seems to be stopped
1454 2013-07-11 22:35:40 <saivann> Most virtual machines are stopped actually
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1457 2013-07-11 22:37:11 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1458 2013-07-11 22:37:17 <Luke-Jr> did it again, after another 700-800 keys
1459 2013-07-11 22:37:24 <Luke-Jr> this time I had it unlocked infinite
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1469 2013-07-11 22:51:58 <maaku> anyone have a pointer to the DER format of a compressed public key?
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1476 2013-07-11 23:07:00 <sipa> maaku: why DER?
1477 2013-07-11 23:07:19 <sipa> bitcoin doesn't use DER for public keys
1478 2013-07-11 23:07:53 <sipa> (except inside private keys are stored in unencrypted wallets)
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1495 2013-07-11 23:25:23 <eruadan> hi, i'm curious about btc code base)i just know some js), and i notice it has a lot of typescript. is there any particular reason that this language was chosen?
1496 2013-07-11 23:26:29 <lianj> typescript? WHERE
1497 2013-07-11 23:26:43 <lianj> ups, didn't want to capslock
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1499 2013-07-11 23:28:01 <eruadan> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
1500 2013-07-11 23:28:23 <eruadan> says typescript 66,4%
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1505 2013-07-11 23:30:50 <lianj> eruadan: prolly an error
1506 2013-07-11 23:31:07 <lianj> the core of bitcoin is all c++
1507 2013-07-11 23:31:28 <eruadan> ahh, ok
1508 2013-07-11 23:31:32 <lianj> maybe the github stats are wrong due to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/src/qt/locale
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1511 2013-07-11 23:32:15 <gmaxwell> lol.
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1514 2013-07-11 23:34:28 <eruadan> ok, so i need a crash course in c++
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1519 2013-07-11 23:45:53 <K1773R> if i set the keypool to 1000 and find 1000 blocks, a backup would also work? ie does finding new blocks use an address from the keypool?
1520 2013-07-11 23:46:02 <K1773R> it should AFAIK
1521 2013-07-11 23:51:41 <gmaxwell> K1773R: yes.
1522 2013-07-11 23:52:14 <K1773R> gmaxwell: ty
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1524 2013-07-11 23:55:29 <Luke-Jr> err
1525 2013-07-11 23:55:35 <Luke-Jr> depends on your mining server lol
1526 2013-07-11 23:55:47 <Luke-Jr> getwork is deprecated, but behaves like that
1527 2013-07-11 23:55:55 <Luke-Jr> and bitcoind's GBT doesn't coordinate the payout at all
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