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 122 2013-07-12 04:08:45 <jaekwon> are there any docs or wiki that explains the architecture in more detail, like CTxUndo
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 124 2013-07-12 04:14:06 <gmaxwell> What are you trying to do? (where I suggest depends on what you're trying to accomplish)
 125 2013-07-12 04:15:05 <jaekwon> i am trying to understand 90% of the architecture as quickly as possible
 126 2013-07-12 04:15:39 <jaekwon> and assess whether bitcoind works for my coin
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 128 2013-07-12 04:17:35 <gmaxwell> jaekwon: ah, well there is no replacement for reading the code. I'm not sure using this code base does you much good if what you're doing isn't bitcoin— even if it happens to work today, it may not work tomorrow, since the only thing we're comitted to supporting is bitcoin and we may/will/do randomly change it in ways that improves Bitcoin performance but may break you.
 129 2013-07-12 04:18:35 <jaekwon> gotcha. thanks gmaxwell
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 172 2013-07-12 05:32:36 <Diablo-D3> you know
 173 2013-07-12 05:32:40 <Diablo-D3> when cosbycoin returns
 174 2013-07-12 05:32:46 <Diablo-D3> I have the perfect gif for this
 175 2013-07-12 05:32:56 <Diablo-D3> http://i.imgur.com/MKDFQ39.gif
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 179 2013-07-12 05:49:21 <gjs278> lets pump and dump a coin on btc-e
 180 2013-07-12 05:49:27 <gjs278> lets make a coin
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 199 2013-07-12 06:43:33 <h2odysee> is the 0.0001 transaction fee mandatory? or is there a way around it?
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 323 2013-07-12 09:44:27 <TD> good morning
 324 2013-07-12 09:45:06 <i2pRelay> <PoohBear@i2p> good morning
 325 2013-07-12 09:51:17 <TD> out of curiousity, why do you use i2p rather than tor?
 326 2013-07-12 09:51:50 <i2pRelay> <PoohBear@i2p> I use both things mate.
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 380 2013-07-12 11:49:22 <bazyl> Hey there
 381 2013-07-12 11:50:00 <bazyl> I'm working on a bitcoin framework for macs right now. I've reached a point where I would really need some coins on a testnet3 network. How can I get those?
 382 2013-07-12 11:52:04 <daybyter> bitcoin framework?
 383 2013-07-12 11:52:12 <daybyter> to access exchanges?
 384 2013-07-12 11:52:50 <bazyl> to build a native Mac clients
 385 2013-07-12 11:52:56 <bazyl> wallet ones I mean
 386 2013-07-12 11:53:25 <bazyl> framework is a maccy name for libraries, really ;) sorry for confusion :P
 387 2013-07-12 11:56:49 <daybyter> ah...ok...I'm working on trading stuff...
 388 2013-07-12 11:57:02 <daybyter> in java...should run on a mac, too...
 389 2013-07-12 11:59:43 <bazyl> ;)
 390 2013-07-12 11:59:56 <bazyl> getting back to the subject
 391 2013-07-12 12:00:06 <bazyl> seems I have to mine some coins on my own then, right? :)
 392 2013-07-12 12:02:11 <fanquake> bazyl It'd help if you post and address
 393 2013-07-12 12:03:12 <bazyl> fanquake: mnU6WX7X5kboQPAUsq2h7zQB5HUmQ379Ea
 394 2013-07-12 12:03:31 <bazyl> thanks in advance
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 463 2013-07-12 13:18:32 <booblw> in the year after the ominous Muslim Brotherhood gained power, and with her husband Mohammed Morsi dominated parliament as president, attacked the Egyptian military one, and the background were millions of demonstrators in the streets, its against Morsis imposition of strict Sharia law and against protested inability to get to grips with the economic collapse. The coup was led by defense minister and army chief General Abdel
 464 2013-07-12 13:18:34 <booblw> Fattah al-Sisi. Significantly el-Sissi was brought as a devout Muslim, and more recently General Morsi in his last year of office. He was educated in Washington and at the Pentagon leadership is in good standing. The fact that he lead the coup, indicates the profound rejection of the Brotherhood in Egypt. Al-Sissi announced on the night of Wednesday (July 03, 2013), that the Chairman of the Constitutional Court to act as
 465 2013-07-12 13:18:37 <booblw> provisional president and set up an interim government of technocrats will, which will actively Irish the country to early presidential and parliamentary elections. He was flanked here by Christians, the secular opposition and Muslim leaders.
 466 2013-07-12 13:18:39 <booblw> Al-Sissi pointed out that the entire effort of the army, to reach a national dialogue and reconciliation, welcomed by all groups and (only) will be blocked by President Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood.
 467 2013-07-12 13:18:41 <booblw> The anger is directed against the United States
 468 2013-07-12 13:18:43 <booblw> Perhaps the most important aspect of the mass mobilization of protesters in recent weeks was the clearly anti-American character of the street protests, which culminated in the decision of the military to take control. Protesters carried homemade posters with them, denouncing Obama and his ambassador in Cairo, Anne Patterson.
 469 2013-07-12 13:18:45 <booblw> Anne Patterson became the special target of protests. She had on 18 June Remarks drop, which should discourage the anti-protesters-Morsi. She told the Egyptians: "Some people think that the street actions would be better than elections. . Honestly, I and my government are deeply skeptical about "In an even more detailed interview in May with the Egyptian Ahram Online refused the diplomat to take a critical stance towards Morsi
 470 2013-07-12 13:18:48 <booblw> and said:" The fact is that they held a legitimate election and have won. Of course it is a challenge to deal with a new government. But at the state level, for example, we are still connected to the same military and civilian personnel and thus receive the same and long-established relationships. "[1]
 471 2013-07-12 13:18:50 <booblw> The actions of the military were also against the explicit intervention of U.S. President Obama and the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Martin Dempsey, performed. Obama called on the Egyptian President and Dempsey telephoned the Chief of Staff Sedki Sobhi. They hoped to dispel the triple crisis between the regime, the army and the protest movement. Now Obama stands as more than stupid. [2]
 472 2013-07-12 13:18:52 <booblw> Characteristically, the Saudi King Abdullah and the leaders of the United Arab Emirates - with the notable exception of the Emir of Qatar, a pro-Muslim Brotherhood supporters - welcomed the military action in Egypt. [3]
 473 2013-07-12 13:18:54 <booblw> DEBKAfile, a news blog with proximity to Israeli military and intelligence circles, says the Egyptian military had acted with the tacit support of Saudi Arabia and other conservative Gulf states. Obama should highlight the annual U.S. military aid in the amount of 1.3 billion U.S. dollars to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the UAR would stand in for it. Also - as DEBKAfile - would the Saudis, the VAR and other Gulf states such as Bahrain
 474 2013-07-12 13:18:56 <booblw>  and Kuwait, "immediately provide substantial funds to support Egypt's economy. The Egyptian masses should be made aware that, in a well geführen economy would be guaranteed a minimum standard of living, and no one should go hungry, as under the rule of the Muslim Brotherhood. According to our (DEBKAfile) sources, the Saudis and the VAR promised to catch up with the funds of Qatar, which flowed into the coffers of the Muslim
 475 2013-07-12 13:18:59 <booblw> Brotherhood in Cairo last year of. These are the huge sum of 13 billion dollars, "[4]
 476 2013-07-12 13:20:47 iphone5S has joined
 477 2013-07-12 13:21:11 <hoolandi> Uhh
 478 2013-07-12 13:23:49 [\\\] has joined
 479 2013-07-12 13:24:26 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 480 2013-07-12 13:24:28 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 481 2013-07-12 13:24:31 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 482 2013-07-12 13:24:33 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 483 2013-07-12 13:24:35 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 484 2013-07-12 13:24:37 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 485 2013-07-12 13:24:39 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 486 2013-07-12 13:24:42 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 487 2013-07-12 13:24:44 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 488 2013-07-12 13:24:46 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 489 2013-07-12 13:24:48 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 490 2013-07-12 13:24:50 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo peper ph8 PiZZaMaN2K Roadhog by wizkid57
 491 2013-07-12 13:24:53 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ryan`c Shishire_ Shooelware ssinc by wizkid57
 492 2013-07-12 13:24:55 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Subo1978 Subo1978_ Syolaar tahnok by wizkid57
 493 2013-07-12 13:24:57 <saulimus> wtf
 494 2013-07-12 13:24:57 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo TaKeN TelOoSRS TheSeoen tinnoec by wizkid57
 495 2013-07-12 13:24:59 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Tiraspol toonX Oinylylyly whiteyonenh by wizkid57
 496 2013-07-12 13:25:01 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo wingcom wurx Zammo Zeronic by wizkid57
 497 2013-07-12 13:25:04 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin -o Michhell_ by wizkid57
 498 2013-07-12 13:25:06 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +m by wizkid57
 499 2013-07-12 13:25:08 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 500 2013-07-12 13:25:10 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 501 2013-07-12 13:25:12 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 502 2013-07-12 13:25:15 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 503 2013-07-12 13:25:17 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 504 2013-07-12 13:25:19 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 505 2013-07-12 13:25:21 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 506 2013-07-12 13:25:24 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 507 2013-07-12 13:25:26 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 508 2013-07-12 13:25:28 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 509 2013-07-12 13:25:29 <kjj> I'm hoping that is a copy/paste accident, but I ignored him anyway
 510 2013-07-12 13:25:30 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 511 2013-07-12 13:25:32 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 512 2013-07-12 13:25:35 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 513 2013-07-12 13:25:37 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 514 2013-07-12 13:25:39 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 515 2013-07-12 13:25:41 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 516 2013-07-12 13:25:43 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo peper ph8 PiZZaMaN2K Roadhog by wizkid57
 517 2013-07-12 13:25:46 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ryan`c Shishire_ Shooelware ssinc by wizkid57
 518 2013-07-12 13:25:48 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Subo1978 Subo1978_ Syolaar tahnok by wizkid57
 519 2013-07-12 13:25:50 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo TaKeN TelOoSRS TheSeoen tinnoec by wizkid57
 520 2013-07-12 13:25:52 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Tiraspol toonX Oinylylyly whiteyonenh by wizkid57
 521 2013-07-12 13:25:54 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo wingcom wurx Zammo Zeronic by wizkid57
 522 2013-07-12 13:25:57 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin -o Michhell_ by wizkid57
 523 2013-07-12 13:25:59 <PiZZaMaN2K> yeah whats going on... lol
 524 2013-07-12 13:25:59 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +m by wizkid57
 525 2013-07-12 13:26:01 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 526 2013-07-12 13:26:03 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 527 2013-07-12 13:26:05 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 528 2013-07-12 13:26:08 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 529 2013-07-12 13:26:10 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 530 2013-07-12 13:26:12 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 531 2013-07-12 13:26:14 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 532 2013-07-12 13:26:16 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 533 2013-07-12 13:26:19 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 534 2013-07-12 13:26:21 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 535 2013-07-12 13:26:23 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 536 2013-07-12 13:26:25 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 537 2013-07-12 13:26:27 <nsh> gmaxwell,
 538 2013-07-12 13:26:28 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 539 2013-07-12 13:26:30 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 540 2013-07-12 13:26:32 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 541 2013-07-12 13:26:34 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 542 2013-07-12 13:26:36 <iphone5S> Modus #bitcoin +oooo peper ph8 PiZZaMaN2K Roadhog by wizkid57
 543 2013-07-12 13:26:47 <nsh> ty
 544 2013-07-12 13:27:03 <gmaxwell> no, thank you! wtf. weird spammer.
 545 2013-07-12 13:28:11 Chicca has joined
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 547 2013-07-12 13:30:02 copumpkin has joined
 548 2013-07-12 13:30:34 <hoolandi> Totally weird
 549 2013-07-12 13:31:18 <hoolandi> Guys do you know if blockexplorer here http://blockexplorer.com/testnet is for testnet3?
 550 2013-07-12 13:31:23 <Chicca> hi devs
 551 2013-07-12 13:32:30 <hoolandi> (Is there any other active testnet at the moment?)
 552 2013-07-12 13:36:31 <jchp> hoolandi: you mean testnet explorer? http://pool.qdoop.net:18331/chain/Testnet3
 553 2013-07-12 13:38:19 <hoolandi> Great, thanks
 554 2013-07-12 13:39:17 <jchp> np
 555 2013-07-12 13:43:25 milone has joined
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 557 2013-07-12 13:44:48 agnostic98 has joined
 558 2013-07-12 13:45:25 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 559 2013-07-12 13:45:25 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 560 2013-07-12 13:45:25 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 561 2013-07-12 13:45:25 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 562 2013-07-12 13:45:25 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 563 2013-07-12 13:45:26 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 564 2013-07-12 13:45:28 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 565 2013-07-12 13:45:29 <MCM-Mike> gmaxwell, sorry to ask can you contact some other OPs to join #bitcoin-de #bitcoin-otc-eu
 566 2013-07-12 13:45:30 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 567 2013-07-12 13:45:32 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 568 2013-07-12 13:45:35 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 569 2013-07-12 13:45:37 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 570 2013-07-12 13:45:39 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo peper ph8 PiZZaMaN2K Roadhog by wizkid57
 571 2013-07-12 13:45:41 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ryan`c Shishire_ Shooelware ssinc by wizkid57
 572 2013-07-12 13:45:43 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Subo1978 Subo1978_ Syolaar tahnok by wizkid57
 573 2013-07-12 13:45:45 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo TaKeN TelOoSRS TheSeoen tinnoec by wizkid57
 574 2013-07-12 13:45:48 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Tiraspol toonX Oinylylyly whiteyonenh by wizkid57
 575 2013-07-12 13:45:50 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo wingcom wurx Zammo Zeronic by wizkid57
 576 2013-07-12 13:45:52 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin -o Michhell_ by wizkid57
 577 2013-07-12 13:45:54 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +m by wizkid57
 578 2013-07-12 13:45:57 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 579 2013-07-12 13:45:59 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 580 2013-07-12 13:46:01 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 581 2013-07-12 13:46:03 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 582 2013-07-12 13:46:05 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 583 2013-07-12 13:46:08 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 584 2013-07-12 13:46:10 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 585 2013-07-12 13:46:12 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 586 2013-07-12 13:46:13 <hoolandi> Wow, netsplits are still a thing?
 587 2013-07-12 13:46:14 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 588 2013-07-12 13:46:16 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 589 2013-07-12 13:46:19 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 590 2013-07-12 13:46:21 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 591 2013-07-12 13:46:23 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 592 2013-07-12 13:46:25 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 593 2013-07-12 13:46:27 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 594 2013-07-12 13:46:30 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 595 2013-07-12 13:46:32 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo peper ph8 PiZZaMaN2K Roadhog by wizkid57
 596 2013-07-12 13:46:34 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ryan`c Shishire_ Shooelware ssinc by wizkid57
 597 2013-07-12 13:46:36 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Subo1978 Subo1978_ Syolaar tahnok by wizkid57
 598 2013-07-12 13:46:39 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo TaKeN TelOoSRS TheSeoen tinnoec by wizkid57
 599 2013-07-12 13:46:41 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Tiraspol toonX Oinylylyly whiteyonenh by wizkid57
 600 2013-07-12 13:46:42 milone_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 601 2013-07-12 13:46:43 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo wingcom wurx Zammo Zeronic by wizkid57
 602 2013-07-12 13:46:45 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin -o Michhell_ by wizkid57
 603 2013-07-12 13:46:47 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +m by wizkid57
 604 2013-07-12 13:46:50 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 605 2013-07-12 13:46:51 <pigeons> broken bot i hope and not just a jerk
 606 2013-07-12 13:46:52 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 607 2013-07-12 13:46:54 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 608 2013-07-12 13:46:56 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 609 2013-07-12 13:46:58 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 610 2013-07-12 13:47:01 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 611 2013-07-12 13:47:03 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 612 2013-07-12 13:47:05 <kjj> time to put +r back on the channel?
 613 2013-07-12 13:47:05 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 614 2013-07-12 13:47:07 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 615 2013-07-12 13:47:09 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 616 2013-07-12 13:47:12 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 617 2013-07-12 13:47:14 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 618 2013-07-12 13:47:16 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 619 2013-07-12 13:47:18 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 620 2013-07-12 13:47:21 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 621 2013-07-12 13:47:23 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 622 2013-07-12 13:47:25 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo peper ph8 PiZZaMaN2K Roadhog by wizkid57
 623 2013-07-12 13:47:27 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ryan`c Shishire_ Shooelware ssinc by wizkid57
 624 2013-07-12 13:47:29 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Subo1978 Subo1978_ Syolaar tahnok by wizkid57
 625 2013-07-12 13:47:32 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo TaKeN TelOoSRS TheSeoen tinnoec by wizkid57
 626 2013-07-12 13:47:34 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Tiraspol toonX Oinylylyly whiteyonenh by wizkid57
 627 2013-07-12 13:47:36 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo wingcom wurx Zammo Zeronic by wizkid57
 628 2013-07-12 13:47:38 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin -o Michhell_ by wizkid57
 629 2013-07-12 13:47:40 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +m by wizkid57
 630 2013-07-12 13:47:43 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 631 2013-07-12 13:47:44 <t7> whomever runs qdoop.net needs to hire a designer... that colour scheme is... wow
 632 2013-07-12 13:47:45 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 633 2013-07-12 13:47:47 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 634 2013-07-12 13:47:48 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 635 2013-07-12 13:47:49 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 636 2013-07-12 13:47:52 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 637 2013-07-12 13:47:54 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 638 2013-07-12 13:47:56 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 639 2013-07-12 13:47:58 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 640 2013-07-12 13:48:00 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo __burrito1 anticw arekinath ayecee by wizkid57
 641 2013-07-12 13:48:03 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ben_turas bleastie BTCOxygen caktux by wizkid57
 642 2013-07-12 13:48:05 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo cccyRegeaneWolfe cereal7802 Dagger2 eags by wizkid57
 643 2013-07-12 13:48:07 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo eoil_doer forgot Forrie forsetifox by wizkid57
 644 2013-07-12 13:48:09 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo FourthDr GordonG3kko handle harmagent by wizkid57
 645 2013-07-12 13:48:11 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo jp_uk L-M LorenzoMoney Luke-Jr by wizkid57
 646 2013-07-12 13:48:14 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo m0gliE makomk_ Michhell_ mkm by wizkid57
 647 2013-07-12 13:48:16 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oo Mossel Ne}{sus by wizkid57
 648 2013-07-12 13:48:18 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo peper ph8 PiZZaMaN2K Roadhog by wizkid57
 649 2013-07-12 13:48:20 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo ryan`c Shishire_ Shooelware ssinc by wizkid57
 650 2013-07-12 13:48:22 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Subo1978 Subo1978_ Syolaar tahnok by wizkid57
 651 2013-07-12 13:48:25 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo TaKeN TelOoSRS TheSeoen tinnoec by wizkid57
 652 2013-07-12 13:48:25 <Ry4an> hrm, this isn't going to end well.
 653 2013-07-12 13:48:27 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo Tiraspol toonX Oinylylyly whiteyonenh by wizkid57
 654 2013-07-12 13:48:29 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin +oooo wingcom wurx Zammo Zeronic by wizkid57
 655 2013-07-12 13:48:31 <Chicca> Modus #bitcoin -o Michhell_ by wizkid57
 656 2013-07-12 13:48:43 <t7> can i do ignore just for this session ?
 657 2013-07-12 13:48:55 Graet has joined
 658 2013-07-12 13:48:55 <t7> or is /ignore permanent
 659 2013-07-12 13:49:04 <jchp> t7: you can set ignores that timeout in irssi
 660 2013-07-12 13:49:10 <AusBitBank> wtf..
 661 2013-07-12 13:49:13 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 662 2013-07-12 13:49:22 <jchp> t7: /help ignore
 663 2013-07-12 13:49:24 <iwilcox> pigeons: Nah, a jerk, jerking around in #bitcoin too :(
 664 2013-07-12 13:49:26 <Ry4an> t7: that's up to your client.  As long as you don't /save them they'd be gone on restart
 665 2013-07-12 13:52:16 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
 666 2013-07-12 14:02:02 ooop has joined
 667 2013-07-12 14:05:16 ooop has quit (Client Quit)
 668 2013-07-12 14:06:15 puzzy has joined
 669 2013-07-12 14:06:43 sw0rdfish has joined
 670 2013-07-12 14:06:53 <sw0rdfish> hi
 671 2013-07-12 14:07:18 ThomasV has joined
 672 2013-07-12 14:08:38 ThomasV has quit (Client Quit)
 673 2013-07-12 14:09:14 <puzzy> hi sw0rdfish
 674 2013-07-12 14:09:28 <sw0rdfish> hey puzzy
 675 2013-07-12 14:09:39 <sw0rdfish> What programming language do I need to learn to develop
 676 2013-07-12 14:09:51 <matjeh_> c
 677 2013-07-12 14:10:05 <sw0rdfish> I know abit of c
 678 2013-07-12 14:10:15 <matjeh_> perfect
 679 2013-07-12 14:10:18 <sw0rdfish> I would need to learn C sockets right?
 680 2013-07-12 14:11:20 <CheckDavid> What's the difference between C and C++ ?
 681 2013-07-12 14:11:51 <TD> can we take the learning to program talk somewhere else please?
 682 2013-07-12 14:11:52 <sw0rdfish> C++ is object oriented
 683 2013-07-12 14:11:59 agricocb has joined
 684 2013-07-12 14:12:11 <sw0rdfish> I just need some guidance from someone smarter than me
 685 2013-07-12 14:13:02 <kjj> hmm.  (C==C++) returns true, so they are the same
 686 2013-07-12 14:13:25 milone_ has joined
 687 2013-07-12 14:13:32 <TD> interesting observation kjj
 688 2013-07-12 14:14:29 <kjj> Bjarne screwed up.  he should have named it ++C
 689 2013-07-12 14:15:34 <nsh> lol kjj
 690 2013-07-12 14:15:36 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 691 2013-07-12 14:15:41 taha has joined
 692 2013-07-12 14:15:53 agnostic98 has joined
 693 2013-07-12 14:15:58 <nsh> yeah, but he started with C and then incremented if after the project's inception
 694 2013-07-12 14:16:14 <pigeons> http://faadooindia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/5699_Difference-between-C-C++-language_faadooindia.com_.jpg
 695 2013-07-12 14:17:00 <nsh> he covered the basics...
 696 2013-07-12 14:17:04 milone has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 697 2013-07-12 14:17:09 <sipa> kjj: how about ++c == c++ ?
 698 2013-07-12 14:17:20 <puzzy> or VBA
 699 2013-07-12 14:17:55 michagogo has joined
 700 2013-07-12 14:18:22 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 701 2013-07-12 14:18:44 <kjj> sipa: it is a trick question.  all variations along that theme return true (if I recall correctly without looking it up right now)
 702 2013-07-12 14:19:17 <puzzy> mi michagogo
 703 2013-07-12 14:19:19 <puzzy> can somebody talk with me 32 bit?
 704 2013-07-12 14:19:23 <puzzy> 1
 705 2013-07-12 14:19:25 <puzzy> 2
 706 2013-07-12 14:19:28 <puzzy> 3
 707 2013-07-12 14:19:31 <michagogo> .....
 708 2013-07-12 14:19:51 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 709 2013-07-12 14:19:51 <gmaxwell> You've got me. Another gibberish emitter.
 710 2013-07-12 14:20:03 Guest89801 has quit (Quit: leaving)
 711 2013-07-12 14:20:28 <kjj> was there a discussion where +r for the channel mode was rejected?  these guys aren't registered
 712 2013-07-12 14:20:33 petertodd has joined
 713 2013-07-12 14:21:03 <petertodd> jgarzik: wanna get on that yearly itch to rewrite IRC? this time with anti-spam fidelity bonds?...
 714 2013-07-12 14:21:13 <gmaxwell> it was +r temporarily, but freenode services have been going down and leaving us unable to talk in here.
 715 2013-07-12 14:21:36 handle has joined
 716 2013-07-12 14:22:11 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 717 2013-07-12 14:22:12 <kjj> ahh, ok.  I remember that
 718 2013-07-12 14:22:15 <TD> sipa: libsecp256k1 bug report: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=236477.20
 719 2013-07-12 14:23:11 michagogo is now known as Evilmichagogo
 720 2013-07-12 14:23:34 Evilmichagogo is now known as michagogo
 721 2013-07-12 14:24:44 <matjeh_> struct C { int operator++(int) { return 42; } int operator++() { return 9000; } } c;
 722 2013-07-12 14:24:48 <matjeh_> where is your god now
 723 2013-07-12 14:25:08 hsmiths2 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 724 2013-07-12 14:25:17 <sipa> TD: thanks, i don't follow tbe forum anymore
 725 2013-07-12 14:25:22 <sipa> the comment looks correct
 726 2013-07-12 14:27:05 hsmiths has joined
 727 2013-07-12 14:27:24 <hoolandi> petertodd: Great comments about libzerocoin BTW
 728 2013-07-12 14:28:24 patcon has joined
 729 2013-07-12 14:31:39 <nsh> hoolandi, link?
 730 2013-07-12 14:31:54 daybyter has joined
 731 2013-07-12 14:36:26 <hoolandi> It's from the mailing list. Let me see...
 732 2013-07-12 14:36:56 taha_ has joined
 733 2013-07-12 14:37:51 <hoolandi> From this thread: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20130705140140.GA23949%40netbook.cypherspace.org&forum_name=bitcoin-development
 734 2013-07-12 14:37:55 taha_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 735 2013-07-12 14:40:22 <nsh> danke
 736 2013-07-12 14:43:22 milone has joined
 737 2013-07-12 14:46:26 parker__ has joined
 738 2013-07-12 14:46:34 milone_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 739 2013-07-12 14:46:57 agnostic98 has joined
 740 2013-07-12 14:47:31 <parker__> Das insolvenzbedrohte Zypern hat drei Tage Zeit, um sechs Milliarden Euro aufzutreiben, schreibt die Zeitung „RBC Daily“ am Freitag.
 741 2013-07-12 14:47:33 <parker__> Die Europäische Zentralbank (EZB) will am Montag den zyprischen Banken den Geldhahn zudrehen, wenn bis dahin kein neuer Rettungsplan vorliegt.
 742 2013-07-12 14:47:35 <parker__> Wie der Chef der Eurogruppe, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, sagte, stellt die EZB nur kreditfähigen Banken die Notkreditlinie (Emergency Liquidity Assistance, ELA) zur Verfügung.
 743 2013-07-12 14:47:38 <parker__> Ohne den Notkredit stehen die zwei größten Banken des Landes, Laiki Bank und die Bank of Cyprus, vor der Zahlungsunfähigkeit. Nach EZB-Angaben kommt die Notkreditlinie ELA für zahlungsschwache Geldhäuser im absoluten Krisenfall zum Einsatz. Wie das frühere Vorstandsmitglied der EZB, Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa, jedoch betonte, erlaubt diese Formulierung einen gewissen Handlungsspielraum. „Theoretisch sind alle damit einverstanden, dass die Nothilfe
 744 2013-07-12 14:47:40 <parker__>  zwar zahlungsunfähigen, aber kreditfähigen Instituten bereitgestellt werden kann. Bei Finanzproblemen ist der Unterschied zwischen diesen beiden Begriffen nicht so eindeutig“, sagte er.
 745 2013-07-12 14:50:33 parker__ has joined
 746 2013-07-12 14:50:41 parker__ has quit (K-Lined)
 747 2013-07-12 14:51:05 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 748 2013-07-12 14:51:08 <MC1984> emergency liquid assistance
 749 2013-07-12 14:51:16 <MC1984> like the bottl of scotch i keep in my desk?
 750 2013-07-12 14:51:31 patcon_ has joined
 751 2013-07-12 14:52:26 * nsh takes notes
 752 2013-07-12 14:52:44 <nsh> echo "MC1984's desk" >> scotch-reserves.txt
 753 2013-07-12 14:52:56 <nsh> can't be too careful...
 754 2013-07-12 14:53:10 perrry has joined
 755 2013-07-12 14:53:31 jaromil_ is now known as jaromil
 756 2013-07-12 14:54:11 <perrry> The insolvency threatened Cyprus has three days to raise six billion euros, the newspaper "RBC Daily" writes on Friday.
 757 2013-07-12 14:54:13 <perrry> The European Central Bank (ECB) will on Monday the Cypriot banks turn off the tap, if by then there is no new rescue plan.
 758 2013-07-12 14:54:15 <perrry> As the head of the euro group, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, said the ECB will only credit-qualified banks Notkreditlinie (Emergency Liquidity Assistance, PA) are available.
 759 2013-07-12 14:54:18 <perrry> Without the emergency loan are the two largest banks in the country, Laiki Bank and the Bank of Cyprus, before the insolvency. According to ECB data, the ELA is Notkreditlinie for payment weak financial institutions for use in absolute crisis. As the former board member of the ECB, Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa, but stressed this formulation allows a certain leeway. "Theoretically, all agree that the relief can be provided while insolvent, but
 760 2013-07-12 14:54:20 <perrry> credit-qualified institutions. With financial problems, the difference between these two terms is not so clear, "he said.
 761 2013-07-12 14:54:22 <perrry> Cyprus has meanwhile rejected the planned compulsory levies on bank deposits. "About a reduction (of deposits) we have not spoken and will not come back to it," said European Parliament President Giannakis Omirou.
 762 2013-07-12 14:54:24 <perrry> When Plan B is the creation of a solidarity fund out of the assets of the Cypriot State and the Church. According to Bloomberg data could be obtained 560 million euros from the sale of gold reserves. Further 500 million euros could provide the church, which is one of the largest investors in its economy. According to "New York Times" information includes the Church shares in the Bank of Cyprus and Hellenic Bank, as well as hotels, real
 763 2013-07-12 14:54:26 <perrry> estate and the brewers Keo. From the nationalization of pension funds should come together up to four billion euros. As the mortgage natural gas fields should be stored.
 764 2013-07-12 14:54:29 <perrry> Russia is considering only the extension of the existing loan to Cyprus. Moscow also wants to participate in the Cypriot solidarity fund, Reuters reported.
 765 2013-07-12 14:54:31 <perrry> Cyprus has asked the Kremlin in vain for help. As the emerging expert at Standard Bank, Tim Ash, said the Cypriot Finance Minister Michalis Sarris has turned to the wrong guy. A Bittgang in Turkey is promising. Ankara could provide the required sum in exchange for the reunification of the island, said the expert.
 766 2013-07-12 14:54:39 <c0rw1n> gmaxwell: rm troll
 767 2013-07-12 14:54:42 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 768 2013-07-12 14:56:54 <c0rw1n> tanks :)
 769 2013-07-12 14:56:57 <c0rw1n> thanks :)
 770 2013-07-12 14:57:07 <c0rw1n> next time i'll try sudo rm troll
 771 2013-07-12 14:57:21 <c0rw1n> -Rvf
 772 2013-07-12 14:57:51 <c0rw1n> oh that's the first time i talk here
 773 2013-07-12 14:57:56 <c0rw1n> hello all
 774 2013-07-12 14:58:21 <daybyter> Hello c0rw1n!
 775 2013-07-12 14:58:36 <MC1984> oh look someone upset some emotionally immature kid, who then went away and rented a botnet and now we all have to suffer for it
 776 2013-07-12 14:58:46 <MC1984> its like a microcosm of an anarchist paradise
 777 2013-07-12 14:59:01 Eiii has joined
 778 2013-07-12 14:59:01 Eiii has quit (Changing host)
 779 2013-07-12 14:59:01 Eiii has joined
 780 2013-07-12 14:59:03 <c0rw1n> well "the system works" :p
 781 2013-07-12 14:59:04 <petertodd> hoolandi: thanks
 782 2013-07-12 14:59:06 perrry has joined
 783 2013-07-12 14:59:18 <c0rw1n> aaaand it's back
 784 2013-07-12 14:59:33 <petertodd> hoolandi: Not to say we can implement zerocoin tomorrow, but it's sooner than many think.
 785 2013-07-12 14:59:49 <hoolandi> MC1984: What makes you think it's a kid? :)
 786 2013-07-12 14:59:57 <hoolandi> MC1984: Sounds like the ravings of an adult to me.
 787 2013-07-12 15:00:07 <perrry> Kriegsvorbereitungen gegen Syrien und den Iran sind in vollem Gange. Die USA, Israel und westliche Länder rüsten im Persischen Golf und im Mittelmeer auf, Iran droht im Gegenzug mit Raketen und der Sperrung der Straße von Hormus. Und Syrien? Wer steckt in Wahrheit hinter den Unruhen und Protesten Hunderttausender, über die westliche Massenmedien täglich berichten? Wer ist verantwortlich für Tausende Tote, die dem Regime von Präsident Assad
 788 2013-07-12 15:00:10 <perrry> zugeschrieben wurden?
 789 2013-07-12 15:00:11 <perrry> Der US-Journalist und Historiker Webster Tarpley reiste nach Damaskus, um aus dem angeblichen »Hexenkessel« zu berichten. Doch seine Schilderungen klingen ganz anders als das, was deutsche und europäische Zuschauer und Leser täglich aus den Mainstream-Medien erfahren. Tarpley spricht über die Pläne und Strategien westlicher Geheimdienste, die das geostrategisch hochinteressante Syrien destabilisieren wollen, über die verblüffende Ähnlichkeit
 790 2013-07-12 15:00:13 <perrry> der Vorgänge, die schon in Libyen zu beobachten waren. Nach Tarpleys Berichten könnte die offenbar vorsätzlich falsche Berichterstattung ebenso zu einem perfiden Plan gehören wie der bevorstehende Sturz Assads und die Übernahme der Geschäfte durch CIA-gesteuerte Todesschwadronen. Tarpley sieht immense Gefahren auf das kulturreiche Syrien zukommen: die völlige Zerstörung!
 791 2013-07-12 15:00:15 <perrry> Der amerikanische Autor nennt die realen Gefahren eines Dritten Weltkrieges, der sich durch die derzeitigen Vorbereitungen in Nah- und Mittelost anbahnt. Denn Syrien und Iran sollen im Kriegsfall Unterstützung aus Russland und aus China erhalten: Zahlreiche russische Kriegsschiffe liegen bereits im Mittelmeer vor Tartus, jeden Tag könnte der erste Schlag ausgeführt werden. Die Frage lautet jedoch: Von welcher Seite wird die die erste Initiative
 792 2013-07-12 15:00:15 <hoolandi> petertodd: Yeah I was afraid it would come to that.
 793 2013-07-12 15:00:18 <perrry> ausgehen?
 794 2013-07-12 15:00:19 <hoolandi> Jesus Christ.
 795 2013-07-12 15:00:20 <perrry> Tarpley warnt: Das Leben des künftigen russischen Präsidenten Wladimir Putin ist in höchster Gefahr. Der Historiker schließt eine vorsätzliche Tötung Putins in nächster Zeit nicht aus: Zahlreiche Gründe sprechen für dessen Beseitigung. Weitere drängende Fragen werden beantwortet: Auf wessen Seite hat sich die Türkei jetzt geschlagen? Kommt ihr eine Schlüsselrolle zu? Und welche Rolle spielen in diesem dubiosen Gefüge immer wieder die
 796 2013-07-12 15:00:22 <perrry> westlichen Massenmedien?
 797 2013-07-12 15:00:24 <perrry> Tarpley berichtet auch über die Gefahren einer großangelegten Weltdepression, die global ausgebrochen ist und die von geheimen Kräften vorsätzlich angefacht wurde. Doch für welches Ziel und um welchen Preis? Der Journalist beschreibt die geplante Umstellung auf eine Neue Weltordnung. Und er entwickelt Vorschläge, wie man in letzter Minute einen militärischen Rundumschlag und damit den Dritten Weltkrieg vielleicht doch noch verhindern könnte.
 798 2013-07-12 15:00:26 <michagogo> sipa, gmaxwell
 799 2013-07-12 15:00:41 <MC1984> leave them alone
 800 2013-07-12 15:00:48 <c0rw1n> sipa gmaxwell: sudo rm -Rvf troll
 801 2013-07-12 15:00:52 ralphtheninja has joined
 802 2013-07-12 15:01:07 <MC1984> better they spend time coding than banning zombies
 803 2013-07-12 15:01:12 <petertodd> hoolandi: IMO the main risk is we'll implement zerocoin, then a month later they'll find yet another optimization and change all the assumptions...
 804 2013-07-12 15:01:25 <hoolandi> Can you guys just voice everyone in here and make it voice only?
 805 2013-07-12 15:01:46 <hoolandi> petertodd: True. It needs to play out more.
 806 2013-07-12 15:02:12 <hoolandi> petertodd: But I love that it is at least being considered. Bodes well for the future of the whole system in a worst-case scenario IMO.
 807 2013-07-12 15:02:14 <petertodd> hoolandi: The crypto *is* untested too...
 808 2013-07-12 15:02:19 <MC1984> wlp
 809 2013-07-12 15:02:20 <hoolandi> Sure.
 810 2013-07-12 15:02:30 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I mentioned that in my last post on the forum on the subject- putting it in a distributed-decenteralized system means you get the decenteralization suicide pact..
 811 2013-07-12 15:02:31 <michagogo> Interesting, no +f
 812 2013-07-12 15:02:53 <petertodd> hoolandi: Yup, and it's not the only technique: trust-free mixing certainely can be done, and almost certainly can be done in a DoS-resistant distributed manner - no suicide pact required.
 813 2013-07-12 15:02:55 <MC1984> ZC is being considered?
 814 2013-07-12 15:02:59 <MC1984> you mean for bitcoin qt?
 815 2013-07-12 15:03:00 <gmaxwell> No.
 816 2013-07-12 15:03:08 <hoolandi> Heh
 817 2013-07-12 15:03:10 <c0rw1n> petertodd: how do you think to do that?
 818 2013-07-12 15:03:30 <petertodd> c0rw1n: You use fidelity bonds to make jamming the mix process expensive.
 819 2013-07-12 15:03:55 <gmaxwell> I posted about using ZC for that— though actually ZC is seriously overkill for a trust free mix... but it would be a way to get ZC like technology in production use.
 820 2013-07-12 15:04:16 <nsh> hmm
 821 2013-07-12 15:04:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yup, testing is valuable.
 822 2013-07-12 15:05:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the neat thing I realized there was that if you use ZC to secure the mix then you should know for sure no one cheated, so any failure to sign is a DOS attack.. so you can just blacklist their inputs.
 823 2013-07-12 15:05:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Anyway adding ZC to a fidelity bonded system would be an easy upgrade after the rest of the stuff was done.
 824 2013-07-12 15:05:35 <c0rw1n> ... i don't get the fidelity bond thing. Link plz?
 825 2013-07-12 15:05:42 <gmaxwell> So I don't actually think you need a fidelity bond unless the attack is very persistant and well funded.
 826 2013-07-12 15:05:54 crank has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 827 2013-07-12 15:06:08 <petertodd> c0rwin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=172047.0
 828 2013-07-12 15:06:15 <c0rw1n> ok thanks
 829 2013-07-12 15:06:44 <petertodd> gmaxwell: indeed, even the boring fidelity bonded version only needs them as a fallback if attacked
 830 2013-07-12 15:07:30 <Scrat> c0rw1n: this is a better explanation: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134827.0
 831 2013-07-12 15:07:45 <c0rw1n> ok
 832 2013-07-12 15:08:05 <petertodd> c0rw1n: one explains the mix protocol, the other explains what fidelity bonds are
 833 2013-07-12 15:08:15 <gmaxwell> (basically my suggestion ends up piggybacking on the difficulty of creating lots of sufficiently valued outputs. (e.g. you can also ban the children of the bad output for, e.g. a 24 hour timeout)
 834 2013-07-12 15:08:27 <gmaxwell> )
 835 2013-07-12 15:08:49 <c0rw1n> oh good. You can provably yhrow away bitcoins, that opens up... possibilities...
 836 2013-07-12 15:09:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, although I worry you'd find that a persistent attacker dos so anyway because it's not costing them anything
 837 2013-07-12 15:09:31 <petertodd> c0rw1n: Indeed, which is why "just add fidelity bonds!" has become an in-joke around here.
 838 2013-07-12 15:09:36 <gmaxwell> petertodd: right, well, transaction fees in washing their outputs.
 839 2013-07-12 15:10:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: tx fees are cheap... not to mention the zero-fee priority system the 300BTC person is having fun with
 840 2013-07-12 15:10:38 <c0rw1n> *TILT* that's using the blockchain as escrow! genius
 841 2013-07-12 15:10:48 <gmaxwell> but sure, it doesn't replace doing other things, but does make it much less of a potential issue.
 842 2013-07-12 15:11:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, if I implement it I'm only gonna bother writing code for one system :)
 843 2013-07-12 15:11:29 Subo1978_ has joined
 844 2013-07-12 15:11:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: not that I actually implement things...
 845 2013-07-12 15:11:47 <gmaxwell> well the anti-dos thing could simply evolve to attacks....
 846 2013-07-12 15:12:14 <c0rw1n> ... no problem with using inner transactions with multi-sig, amirite?
 847 2013-07-12 15:12:20 <gmaxwell> I've been self imposing a ratio of lines written to code written. :P (uh, but not binning by project)
 848 2013-07-12 15:12:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: rmember that I envision this stuff working over the p2p flood network, and that itself implies strong resistance to attack by provable sacrifice of some kind
 849 2013-07-12 15:13:16 <petertodd> c0rw1n: I didn't think that was possible, but then I realized you can stuff up to 240 bytes of data in a multi-sig and still be able to spend it...
 850 2013-07-12 15:13:35 <petertodd> c0rw1n: jgarzik is doing an OP_RETURN <data> version for a project of his
 851 2013-07-12 15:14:06 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I suppose that it's in our best interest to make the sacrifice coinfees instead of POW...
 852 2013-07-12 15:14:32 <gmaxwell> (create more markets for btc... incentivize more pow work on the chain vs not on the chain)
 853 2013-07-12 15:14:48 Subo1978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 854 2013-07-12 15:14:49 Subo1978_ is now known as Subo1978
 855 2013-07-12 15:14:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, we really should make announce-commit simple and easy, and preferably long-term OP_DEPTH possible
 856 2013-07-12 15:17:32 milone has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 857 2013-07-12 15:22:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, did you see my btc denominated pow system? it works by proving you've attempted to mine a block that has an OP_TRUE in the coinbase tx, so it's still sacrificing fees, just probabalisticly
 858 2013-07-12 15:23:13 realazthat is now known as kafka
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 860 2013-07-12 15:26:45 cypher_ is now known as cypher
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 863 2013-07-12 15:32:27 <nsh> hmm
 864 2013-07-12 15:33:13 <nsh> nice idea petertodd
 865 2013-07-12 15:33:53 <petertodd> nsh: thanks. You can do instant payments the same way - it'll go well with bitcoinj's micropayment channels.
 866 2013-07-12 15:34:05 <nsh> although, wouldn't you have to make  it certain that you couldn't just discard the solution if you found it? probably i'm missing some important information about how pool mining works that obviates this problem
 867 2013-07-12 15:34:31 <petertodd> So long as the rest of the reward > the OP_TRUE txout it's not in the miners interest to discard it.
 868 2013-07-12 15:34:32 <nsh> yes, i think probabilistic distribution may be a partial solution to micropayment congestion somehow
 869 2013-07-12 15:34:42 <nsh> mm
 870 2013-07-12 15:35:02 <petertodd> nsh: probabalistic is also the only way we have of sending funds anonymously
 871 2013-07-12 15:35:15 <nsh> right, hmm
 872 2013-07-12 15:35:18 <nsh> definite merit in this
 873 2013-07-12 15:35:31 <nsh> it's a bit like the old capital punishment systems
 874 2013-07-12 15:35:38 <petertodd> ?
 875 2013-07-12 15:35:40 <nsh> where a whole group of people pull some strings and one of them releases the trapdoor
 876 2013-07-12 15:35:49 <nsh> so no-one is directly culpable for the killing
 877 2013-07-12 15:35:59 <nsh> or something like that, i just filled in the blanks
 878 2013-07-12 15:36:10 <nsh> but firing squad is the same principle in part
 879 2013-07-12 15:36:16 <petertodd> hmm, not a great analogy I think...
 880 2013-07-12 15:36:24 <nsh> lol, possibly
 881 2013-07-12 15:36:39 <petertodd> it's anonymous because it's decoupled basically, although if you have to pay a miner that is an issue...
 882 2013-07-12 15:40:42 JyZyXEL- is now known as JyZyXEL
 883 2013-07-12 15:43:07 <Goonie> petertodd: is there any news on the DNS problem?
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 890 2013-07-12 15:54:57 <petertodd> Goonie: oh, on my dnsseed? nah, it's something pretty funky going on
 891 2013-07-12 15:55:07 <petertodd> Goonie: I don't really know enough about DNS
 892 2013-07-12 15:56:03 <Goonie> You said that your seed might by non-standard. Can't you switch to use standard?
 893 2013-07-12 15:56:29 <petertodd> It's a custom DNS server written by sipa
 894 2013-07-12 15:56:31 <nsh> petertodd, which is your seed domain?
 895 2013-07-12 15:56:43 iwilcox has quit (Killed (calvino.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
 896 2013-07-12 15:56:44 <petertodd> nsh: testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org
 897 2013-07-12 15:56:56 <kinlo> petertodd: you only run a testnet seed?
 898 2013-07-12 15:57:19 <petertodd> kinlo: yup, btcfoundation gave me a grant for it
 899 2013-07-12 15:57:28 <kinlo> a grant? :)
 900 2013-07-12 15:57:37 <kinlo> I'd do it for free if it would be usefull
 901 2013-07-12 15:57:58 <petertodd> kinlo: please do, we need more
 902 2013-07-12 15:58:07 <TD> i really wish the java world could decide on a build system and stick with it
 903 2013-07-12 15:58:15 bitnumus has joined
 904 2013-07-12 15:58:15 <petertodd> yeah, $100 or whatever it was to pay for hosting on ec2
 905 2013-07-12 15:58:22 <TD> it seems every time i start a new project, the old system has been replaced with some hot new one that has a manual 10x longer
 906 2013-07-12 15:58:29 <kinlo> petertodd: oh, I still have some free servers :)
 907 2013-07-12 15:58:33 <bitnumus> -qt copies transactionID with -000 on the end, is this a bug?
 908 2013-07-12 15:58:35 <nsh> TD, java is more focused on the destructive and constructive aspects of the software lifecycle
 909 2013-07-12 15:58:45 <michagogo> bitnumus: That's the vout, I think
 910 2013-07-12 15:58:46 <petertodd> kinlo: heck, I could even give you a pre-setup ec2 image...
 911 2013-07-12 15:58:55 <bitnumus> michagogo, whats one of those
 912 2013-07-12 15:58:57 <nsh> maybe you should pick a language that is not fundamentally based on tying people into complex business partnerships indefinitely
 913 2013-07-12 15:58:59 <kinlo> TD: well, if the java world would finally figure out that they're way overdesigning stuff, it would help a lot
 914 2013-07-12 15:59:05 <nsh> like befunge
 915 2013-07-12 15:59:08 <michagogo> bitnumus: Which output of the transaction it is
 916 2013-07-12 15:59:14 <TD> indeed
 917 2013-07-12 15:59:22 <kinlo> TD: my main problem with maven is that there is no documentation and that it is way too complex to figure out what it does and how to configure it
 918 2013-07-12 15:59:34 <bitnumus> i see, blockchain.info doesnt recognise this then :P
 919 2013-07-12 15:59:35 <kinlo> TD: so I'm not touching maven with a stick unless I really need to
 920 2013-07-12 15:59:35 <bitnumus> thanks
 921 2013-07-12 15:59:36 <TD> the last two build systems were based on XML, which was kind of gross, but the new one is a full-blown scripting language
 922 2013-07-12 15:59:44 <petertodd> kinlo: java doesn't exactly invite you to jump in...
 923 2013-07-12 15:59:48 <kinlo> TD: which one?
 924 2013-07-12 15:59:49 <TD> well i'm wrestling with gradle at the moment
 925 2013-07-12 15:59:54 <michagogo> How much is needed in terms of resources for a testnet seed?
 926 2013-07-12 16:00:07 <kinlo> petertodd: I've been a java developer for many years and I like java a LOT
 927 2013-07-12 16:00:12 <TD> at least with maven, if you wanted to depend on something, you added a <dependency> tag with a few subtags. not amazingly intuitive but not terrible
 928 2013-07-12 16:00:17 <petertodd> michagogo: trivial, I run mine on an ec2 micro instance, it's only a few thousand requests a day
 929 2013-07-12 16:00:23 <kinlo> I just don't like how the industry is totally ruining the ecosystem
 930 2013-07-12 16:00:40 <petertodd> kinlo: I took one look at the java ecosystem and said "ugh"
 931 2013-07-12 16:00:52 <kinlo> petertodd: I don't use ec2, that would cost me monniez
 932 2013-07-12 16:00:59 <TD> but so far i can't even make it register a dependency on a locally installed library. grrrr.
 933 2013-07-12 16:01:04 <kinlo> petertodd: well, look beyond the ecosystem :)
 934 2013-07-12 16:01:08 <petertodd> kinlo: python is simple and beautiful and fast enough
 935 2013-07-12 16:01:12 <michagogo> Hm, that means that anyone with a credit card can easily set up an EC2 micro instance for free for a year and help out
 936 2013-07-12 16:01:19 <kinlo> I really don't like python
 937 2013-07-12 16:01:34 <petertodd> michagogo: kinda, we have to add their seed to the source code, so we want people who will stick around
 938 2013-07-12 16:01:39 <kinlo> I've been doing some programming in it now and still can't find my way in it
 939 2013-07-12 16:01:39 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 940 2013-07-12 16:01:40 <TD> python is slow as crap, any non-tiny codebase tends to be riddled with bugs, the lack of type annotations makes it annoying to debug other peoples code and it's very hard to do any kind of static analysis on it
 941 2013-07-12 16:01:44 <michagogo> petertodd: For more than a year?
 942 2013-07-12 16:01:47 <kinlo> but that's personal I guess
 943 2013-07-12 16:01:51 <petertodd> kinlo: I really do, although it should have had types...
 944 2013-07-12 16:01:51 <TD> it's basically everything you DON'T want in a language when working with other peoples money
 945 2013-07-12 16:01:53 <petertodd> michagogo: yup
 946 2013-07-12 16:02:02 <michagogo> Hmm, actually...
 947 2013-07-12 16:02:07 <kinlo> petertodd: exactly.  I like a very statically typed language
 948 2013-07-12 16:02:09 <TD> we basically scrapped or rewrote every large python codebase in google save for one or two, for those reasons
 949 2013-07-12 16:02:23 <michagogo> Looks like anyone can actually set up *two* for free -- one on Linux and one on Windows
 950 2013-07-12 16:02:41 <TD> ahh, there we go
 951 2013-07-12 16:02:44 <kinlo> google save? :)
 952 2013-07-12 16:02:49 <TD> i had to add mavenLocal() in two different places, for some reason
 953 2013-07-12 16:02:54 <petertodd> kinlo: yeah, what I actually like about python is the syntax and style really, what I actually want python to be is cython, which has types and is possible to compile
 954 2013-07-12 16:02:59 <TD> kinlo: in google, save for
 955 2013-07-12 16:03:03 <petertodd> kinlo: ironic really
 956 2013-07-12 16:03:03 <TD> commas matter, it turns out :)
 957 2013-07-12 16:03:05 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 958 2013-07-12 16:03:13 <kinlo> in google? :)
 959 2013-07-12 16:03:48 <kinlo> TD: you know that google has created more then one programming language?
 960 2013-07-12 16:04:08 <petertodd> kinlo: but I'm bitter because I once found a indentation related bug in some C firmware I wrote for a power supply that could have cost a quarter million per time it was triggered and potentially even gotten someone killed...
 961 2013-07-12 16:04:30 <petertodd> kinlo: I wrote the firmware, someone later changed it and added the bug because they were sloppy
 962 2013-07-12 16:04:32 <TD> much to my dismay
 963 2013-07-12 16:04:42 <kinlo> petertodd: do you have some url or so for the seed?
 964 2013-07-12 16:04:59 <kinlo> petertodd: well, when I write C there is obligated use of indent and -Wall
 965 2013-07-12 16:05:18 <kinlo> you just need to enforce some good rules
 966 2013-07-12 16:05:36 <petertodd> kinlo: this is the software I run: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin-seeder
 967 2013-07-12 16:05:50 <petertodd> kinlo: heh, enforcment is tough
 968 2013-07-12 16:05:58 <michagogo> Looks like an EC2 micro instance is $175 a year
 969 2013-07-12 16:05:59 <kinlo> that's something I like about google go, the community has setled on gofmt, so everybody's code looks exactly the same
 970 2013-07-12 16:06:10 <kinlo> petertodd: commit hooks will do the trick
 971 2013-07-12 16:06:12 <petertodd> kinlo: in all honestly low-level firmware would be much better written in something more like python
 972 2013-07-12 16:06:14 <michagogo> (to run at all times)
 973 2013-07-12 16:06:34 <kinlo> petertodd: no, firmware needs to be low to the system, python is for higher level stuff imho
 974 2013-07-12 16:07:06 <petertodd> kinlo: I said more like, not python itself, point is you can get a language with safe arrays and similar things, yet is still low-level
 975 2013-07-12 16:07:07 <michagogo> Or $105.80 if you go for a High Utilization Reserved Instance
 976 2013-07-12 16:07:25 <kinlo> petertodd: did you look at google-go already?
 977 2013-07-12 16:07:36 <petertodd> kinlo: even 8 bit processors with 64-bytes of ram are programmed in C these days
 978 2013-07-12 16:07:37 <michagogo> (you pay $62 for one year of 75% discount)
 979 2013-07-12 16:08:08 <petertodd> kinlo: yeah, google go is better, but it's still C syntax
 980 2013-07-12 16:08:39 <kinlo> petertodd: I have no problem with it
 981 2013-07-12 16:08:48 <michagogo> And, if you go for the 3-year plan, you pay $100 up front for $0.005 per hour, which works out to 77.13333333333333333333333333... a year
 982 2013-07-12 16:09:10 <petertodd> kinlo: indentation really should be syntax given our brains expect it to be
 983 2013-07-12 16:09:32 <kinlo> petertodd: don't agree
 984 2013-07-12 16:10:18 <petertodd> kinlo: if everyone follows an indentation standard, then why the hell isn't it just part of the syntax? modulo tabs-vs-spaces fuckups there's no good reason not too, and py3 dies when it sees a tabs-vs-spaces fuckup
 985 2013-07-12 16:10:50 <petertodd> kinlo: but as I say I'm bitter for seeing a mistake with such enormous potential consequences happen...
 986 2013-07-12 16:11:27 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 987 2013-07-12 16:12:23 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 988 2013-07-12 16:12:24 <kinlo> petertodd: it just means you're thinking with the wrong organ :)
 989 2013-07-12 16:12:59 <petertodd> kinlo: pfff, peoples brains work visually when they are parsing stuff, they don't work by counting up brackets
 990 2013-07-12 16:13:23 <nsh> +1
 991 2013-07-12 16:13:27 <kinlo> exactly, so enforce decent indentation
 992 2013-07-12 16:13:34 <kinlo> but it doens't mean they can't be there
 993 2013-07-12 16:13:59 <petertodd> kinlo: yes, and since you are enforcing it, what are the brackets for and why does doing anything else not give a compile error?
 994 2013-07-12 16:14:01 <kinlo> for me the curly braces are much more clear then the identation
 995 2013-07-12 16:14:22 <petertodd> that's because you are used to them
 996 2013-07-12 16:14:27 <kinlo> plus
 997 2013-07-12 16:14:42 <kinlo> I just write crappy identation, the compiler understands it when I put the braces
 998 2013-07-12 16:14:44 <petertodd> there's been clean sheet usability studies on this you know, python indentation wins out there
 999 2013-07-12 16:14:53 <kinlo> then I save, indent runs automatically, and my code is cleaned up :)
1000 2013-07-12 16:14:56 <petertodd> kinlo: well you're a bad person, incapable of love
1001 2013-07-12 16:15:04 <kinlo> petertodd: thank you :)
1002 2013-07-12 16:15:05 <michagogo> So unless I got my math wrong, an Amazon EC2 Micro instance is free for the first year, and after that $6.427777777... per month if you go for the "Heavy Utilization Reserved Instance", committing to a 3-year term
1003 2013-07-12 16:15:07 <t7> "kinlo: did you look at google-go already?" did you?
1004 2013-07-12 16:15:25 <kinlo> t7: yes, I have some go programs running in production
1005 2013-07-12 16:15:30 <petertodd> michagogo: sounds about right
1006 2013-07-12 16:15:38 <petertodd> kinlo: :P
1007 2013-07-12 16:16:00 <kinlo> :)
1008 2013-07-12 16:16:10 <t7> its a niche because there arnt many 'fast' native languages with GC
1009 2013-07-12 16:16:25 <kinlo> yep
1010 2013-07-12 16:16:32 <t7> but google go is terrible. no generics whatsoever and lots of unsafe casting
1011 2013-07-12 16:16:38 <kinlo> altough java is fast and gc
1012 2013-07-12 16:16:43 <petertodd> bbl
1013 2013-07-12 16:16:48 <kinlo> it's just not native
1014 2013-07-12 16:16:55 <kinlo> and unsafe casting?  where?
1015 2013-07-12 16:17:20 <t7> every time you get a value from something that returns a value that implements an interface
1016 2013-07-12 16:17:34 <kinlo> no generics... perhaps later, it's only v1.0
1017 2013-07-12 16:18:03 <kinlo> yes, then you get an object of that interface... that's compile time checked
1018 2013-07-12 16:18:54 <t7> yeah but now i have an   'interface {}' or something rather than the 'string' i should have
1019 2013-07-12 16:18:55 <kinlo> t7: did you write in go already ?:)
1020 2013-07-12 16:19:05 <kinlo> yes, then cast it
1021 2013-07-12 16:19:06 <t7> kinlo: yeah i wrote a few bits
1022 2013-07-12 16:19:24 <t7> kinlo: yeah but when you cast its either run time checked on unsafe
1023 2013-07-12 16:19:31 <t7> so slow or fast and unsafe
1024 2013-07-12 16:19:35 <kinlo> yes it's runtime checked afaik
1025 2013-07-12 16:19:38 <Goonie> petertodd, kinlo: the problem with testnet seeds is that there appear to be only two. One is not reachable from me (for whatever reason) and one does only know one node.
1026 2013-07-12 16:19:39 <kinlo> and fast
1027 2013-07-12 16:19:44 <t7> let alone the fast everything has to be boxed
1028 2013-07-12 16:19:55 <kinlo> Goonie: it does remain testnet....
1029 2013-07-12 16:20:29 <kinlo> my testnet node currently has 26 connections...
1030 2013-07-12 16:20:56 ll_ is now known as ll
1031 2013-07-12 16:21:06 <kinlo> t7: it's fast enough.  Google's tests show there is about 30% performance loss compared to regular C
1032 2013-07-12 16:21:22 <Goonie> kinlo: do you have a DNS seed?
1033 2013-07-12 16:21:30 <kinlo> t7: so yes, you can go faster theoretically, but for getting so much goodies in return, I'll take the 30%
1034 2013-07-12 16:21:36 <kinlo> Goonie: no
1035 2013-07-12 16:21:41 <t7> i bet in that test they never use any interface stuff
1036 2013-07-12 16:21:59 <kinlo> but if it is usefull for me to setup and it can be done with low maintenance I might do so
1037 2013-07-12 16:22:00 btc_de has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1038 2013-07-12 16:22:15 <kinlo> t7: I think you bet wrong :)
1039 2013-07-12 16:23:18 <t7> i do like the green threads though
1040 2013-07-12 16:23:59 <kinlo> no idea what color threads have, but the goroutines (!=threads) are very nice
1041 2013-07-12 16:24:05 handle_ is now known as handle
1042 2013-07-12 16:24:48 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
1043 2013-07-12 16:24:52 <kinlo> does anyone know how far gavin has gotten with the payment protocol?
1044 2013-07-12 16:25:22 <t7> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_threads
1045 2013-07-12 16:25:28 <TD> it's usable
1046 2013-07-12 16:25:31 <TD> with an ugly gui
1047 2013-07-12 16:25:59 <Diablo-D3> green threads = fibers
1048 2013-07-12 16:26:21 <Diablo-D3> I dont get why anyone would use Go though
1049 2013-07-12 16:26:33 <Diablo-D3> Erlang is such a better language and isn't some science experiment like Go is
1050 2013-07-12 16:26:44 <Diablo-D3> and Google is probably going to drop Go soon as they realize it can't do what they want
1051 2013-07-12 16:26:54 <Diablo-D3> so I wouldn't bother putting any effort into Go
1052 2013-07-12 16:27:02 <t7> they use go for youtube stuff
1053 2013-07-12 16:27:09 <Diablo-D3> t7: for now
1054 2013-07-12 16:27:13 <Diablo-D3> tommorow it could be erlang
1055 2013-07-12 16:27:13 <Ry4an> We're using go at the office for smaller side stuff.  It's easy to on board people, has decent tooling, and is proving "fun" for experienced devs.
1056 2013-07-12 16:27:30 <t7> i wouldnt write code in go given the choice
1057 2013-07-12 16:27:52 <Diablo-D3> Ry4an: you really should convert your company to erlang
1058 2013-07-12 16:27:59 <Diablo-D3> theres simply no point in writing code in any other language
1059 2013-07-12 16:28:15 <sipa> lol
1060 2013-07-12 16:28:31 <k9quaint_> erlang is great, but Go has better internals for concurrency
1061 2013-07-12 16:28:47 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint_: not really
1062 2013-07-12 16:28:58 <Diablo-D3> Ive never seen a language do concurrency better than Erlang
1063 2013-07-12 16:29:04 <sipa> i'll write my next optimized crypto in Erlang - it'll be ridiculously parallel and ridiculously slow!
1064 2013-07-12 16:29:07 <k9quaint_> plus, it is a tiny runtime
1065 2013-07-12 16:29:33 <phungus> Hack it all together with obfuscated Perl. That is the only way.
1066 2013-07-12 16:29:38 <Ry4an> Diablo-D3: some of us have done some erlang and our experience isn't yours I guess.
1067 2013-07-12 16:30:01 <Diablo-D3> Go is a bunch of low level trash badly mocking up Tony Hoare's CSP ideas
1068 2013-07-12 16:30:13 <k9quaint_> Diablo-D3: have you written anything large in it?
1069 2013-07-12 16:30:21 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint_: I tried to, I can't stand the language
1070 2013-07-12 16:30:23 <Diablo-D3> its just so backwards
1071 2013-07-12 16:30:36 <k9quaint_> it grows on you
1072 2013-07-12 16:30:38 <Diablo-D3> sipa: Erlang isn't meant for numerical crunching
1073 2013-07-12 16:30:40 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212])
1074 2013-07-12 16:30:40 <k9quaint_> (slowly)
1075 2013-07-12 16:30:41 <petertodd> sipa: "ridiculously parallel and ridiculously slow" <- oh, you mean it has webscale?
1076 2013-07-12 16:30:44 <Diablo-D3> sipa: use Fortran or C fo rthat
1077 2013-07-12 16:30:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: bitslice DES where every bit runs in a seperate thread.
1078 2013-07-12 16:31:00 <k9quaint_> HA
1079 2013-07-12 16:31:01 <Diablo-D3> for actual program logic? erlang is goddamned fast
1080 2013-07-12 16:31:22 AtashiCon has joined
1081 2013-07-12 16:31:23 <gmaxwell> How about them bitcoins?
1082 2013-07-12 16:31:34 <phungus> gmaxwell: lol
1083 2013-07-12 16:31:55 <k9quaint_> you guys should make a haskell client
1084 2013-07-12 16:32:02 <phungus> Turbo Pascal FTW
1085 2013-07-12 16:32:26 <Diablo-D3> Ry4an: btw, I suspect you never learned Erlang if your experience wasn't mine
1086 2013-07-12 16:32:38 <Diablo-D3> Ry4an: you have to learn how Erlang works, and its unlike any language I've used
1087 2013-07-12 16:32:53 <Diablo-D3> to merely describe it as a functional language isn't even scratching the surface
1088 2013-07-12 16:35:02 <TD> sigh.
1089 2013-07-12 16:35:17 <TD> i will take a language that doesn't have 3 broken incompatible magic build systems
1090 2013-07-12 16:35:45 <Diablo-D3> TD: you described at least 5 languages
1091 2013-07-12 16:35:50 <k9quaint_> just rewrite LISP to use square brackets instead of parens
1092 2013-07-12 16:35:54 <k9quaint_> oh wait..
1093 2013-07-12 16:36:07 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint_: I know, use json expressions in LISP! ... oh wait
1094 2013-07-12 16:36:19 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i was commenting on "< Diablo-D3> theres simply no point in writing code in any other language"
1095 2013-07-12 16:36:20 <petertodd> I'm surprised no-one has mentioned forth yet
1096 2013-07-12 16:36:25 <k9quaint_> clojure data != JSON sir
1097 2013-07-12 16:36:38 <Diablo-D3> sipa: just saying.
1098 2013-07-12 16:36:42 <TD> it's easy to have a standardised, unified wonderful build system
1099 2013-07-12 16:36:50 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint_: no, there actually is a lisp that uses json expressions
1100 2013-07-12 16:36:51 <TD> having that whilst simultaneously having a crapton of libraries and users - much harder
1101 2013-07-12 16:37:02 <k9quaint_> Diablo-D3: not surprising
1102 2013-07-12 16:37:16 <Diablo-D3> TD: C is not that language
1103 2013-07-12 16:37:17 <k9quaint_> it is probably 3 lines of code
1104 2013-07-12 16:37:37 <Diablo-D3> TD: neither is C++, Java, Scala, or Ruby
1105 2013-07-12 16:38:24 <Diablo-D3> Erlang has 2, but everyone uses the newer one, and if you know how to use the older one, you know how to use the newer one
1106 2013-07-12 16:40:56 <k9quaint_> yeah, but you and 3 guys from Erricson use Erlang so it is pretty easy to have a unified build system
1107 2013-07-12 16:44:15 <BCB> I <3 Erlang
1108 2013-07-12 16:44:43 <BCB> http://bex.io/ is build with Erlang
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1112 2013-07-12 16:50:52 <gmaxwell> ----> #languages
1113 2013-07-12 16:51:30 <nsh> <----- #moneys
1114 2013-07-12 16:52:46 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint_: a LOT of people use erlang
1115 2013-07-12 16:52:53 <Diablo-D3> more people use erlang than go
1116 2013-07-12 16:53:08 Subo1978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1117 2013-07-12 16:53:43 <k9quaint_> give Go some time
1118 2013-07-12 16:53:45 Subo1978 has joined
1119 2013-07-12 16:54:41 <k9quaint_> I'll port the BTC client to it and PROVE IT'S WORTH!
1120 2013-07-12 16:54:59 <k9quaint_> after I eat this cookie...
1121 2013-07-12 16:55:00 <hoolandi> k9quaint_: What's awesome about Go?
1122 2013-07-12 16:55:25 <k9quaint_> hoolandi: its got a tiny runtime that starts in a few milliseconds
1123 2013-07-12 16:55:45 <k9quaint_> but that is for #languages
1124 2013-07-12 16:55:52 <hoolandi> So does io :)
1125 2013-07-12 16:56:00 <hoolandi> But besides that? Oh okay.
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1133 2013-07-12 17:05:00 <saulimus> #bitcoin: <whirlpool160> http://sourceforge.net/projects/multibit/ << multibit malware
1134 2013-07-12 17:06:29 <hoolandi> Seriously?
1135 2013-07-12 17:07:08 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1136 2013-07-12 17:07:15 <saulimus> he just wanted someone to report it on the channel, don't know anything about it
1137 2013-07-12 17:07:40 <hoolandi> You mean someone setup a "repo" on Sourceforge and put up a fake, malware version of Multibit?
1138 2013-07-12 17:08:48 <saulimus> could be, he was probably hoping someone could investigate
1139 2013-07-12 17:09:18 <hoolandi> :/
1140 2013-07-12 17:09:53 <TD> i emailed jim about it
1141 2013-07-12 17:10:02 <TD> it's not the first time someone has tried to distribute a back-doored multibit
1142 2013-07-12 17:10:12 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1143 2013-07-12 17:10:17 <TD> if you try multibtc.org you'll discover it's blocked by safebrowsing
1144 2013-07-12 17:10:33 <saulimus> atleast the file size is 14.7 MB vs 11.7 MB at multibit.org
1145 2013-07-12 17:10:55 CodeShar_ has joined
1146 2013-07-12 17:11:19 da2ce7 has joined
1147 2013-07-12 17:11:35  has joined
1148 2013-07-12 17:12:58 <saulimus> nice, the guy also changed the donation address to his own one :p
1149 2013-07-12 17:13:02 Arbition_ has joined
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1151 2013-07-12 17:13:55 <hoolandi> Lot of work for little reward
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1205 2013-07-12 18:45:22 <i2pRelay> <toran@i2p> hai are there any alternatives to zerocoin that the bitcoin devs are interested in?
1206 2013-07-12 18:46:48 peetaur2 has joined
1207 2013-07-12 18:48:46 <gmaxwell> there are many ways to anonymize coin ownership that doesn't have the performance implications of integrated zerocoin. There are posts about this on the bitcointalk forums, I suggest looking.
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1209 2013-07-12 18:50:41 robocoin_ is now known as robocoin
1210 2013-07-12 18:59:13 <midnightmagic> hello i2p person. you know, your population over there is remarkably well-behaved, considering. just wanted to say thanks for that.
1211 2013-07-12 19:00:25 <gmaxwell> er I suggest looking there first.
1212 2013-07-12 19:00:40 mappum has joined
1213 2013-07-12 19:01:03 <mappum> what does Multibit do differently that makes it sync so fast?
1214 2013-07-12 19:01:56 <gmaxwell> mappum: it's a SPV client, a kind of think client that uses other bitcoin nodes as its servers and validates very little.
1215 2013-07-12 19:02:17 <gmaxwell> (though more than a web thin client like blockchain.info does)
1216 2013-07-12 19:02:22 <gmaxwell> s/think/thin/
1217 2013-07-12 19:02:35 michagogo has quit (Quit: Sigh... Time to send my laptop away for repairs. Might be gone for a week or two... :-()
1218 2013-07-12 19:03:19 <hoolandi> Speaking of SPV clients… We've just tried to build a wallet around libccoin and picocoin and its not very complete yet :/ You guys know of any other C or C++ implementations?
1219 2013-07-12 19:04:07 <hoolandi> It's a real mess for the Mac side of things; a JVM is not guaranteed installed by default on newer systems
1220 2013-07-12 19:04:15 <mappum> would it be bad if too many people used that then? because it's making load for nodes but not contributing?
1221 2013-07-12 19:04:48 <warren> sounds like miners
1222 2013-07-12 19:05:21 <gmaxwell> hoolandi: just install the JVM too.
1223 2013-07-12 19:05:44 <gmaxwell> mappum: yes, it creates load and doesn't contribute. It's not clear how it will play out.
1224 2013-07-12 19:06:08 <hoolandi> gmaxwell: Come on, that's crazy talk. :-)
1225 2013-07-12 19:11:48 flound1129 has joined
1226 2013-07-12 19:11:59 <flound1129> is there a way to list all addresses in a wallet in 0.6.x?
1227 2013-07-12 19:12:02 <flound1129> from command line?
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1230 2013-07-12 19:13:41 <gmaxwell> flound1129: no, because doing so would defeat the keypool
1231 2013-07-12 19:13:58 <flound1129> so nothing like listaddressgroupings?
1232 2013-07-12 19:14:06 <flound1129> in 0.8
1233 2013-07-12 19:14:27 <gmaxwell> listaddressgroupings doesn't do what you asked for either.
1234 2013-07-12 19:14:34 <gmaxwell> But no, there is no listaddressgroupings in 0.6.
1235 2013-07-12 19:15:15 <flound1129> yeah
1236 2013-07-12 19:15:18 Tantadruj has joined
1237 2013-07-12 19:15:22 <flound1129> it doesn't?
1238 2013-07-12 19:17:28 <flound1129> I mean all generated addresses
1239 2013-07-12 19:17:43 <gmaxwell> No. It doesn't list the keys in the keypool, for example. It doesn't list generated addresses that haven't recieved funds yet, IIRC.
1240 2013-07-12 19:18:04 <flound1129> hmm
1241 2013-07-12 19:18:06 <flound1129> ok thanks
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1263 2013-07-12 19:51:34 <Diablo-D3> http://blog.kotowicz.net/2013/07/jealous-of-prism-use-amazon-1-button.html
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1270 2013-07-12 20:06:47 <bmcgee> hey guys, i'm trying to understand the coinbase a bit better. Anyone about prepared to answer a few (potentially stupid) questions?
1271 2013-07-12 20:11:10 <bmcgee> I'll take that as a no then lol
1272 2013-07-12 20:12:10 <gdbz> don't ask to ask, just ask.
1273 2013-07-12 20:12:11 <gdbz> =)
1274 2013-07-12 20:13:17 <bmcgee> :)
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1276 2013-07-12 20:13:31 <bmcgee> ok so the coinbase is a transaction with a single input that isn't connected to any outputs?
1277 2013-07-12 20:14:05 <bmcgee> from a pooling point of view
1278 2013-07-12 20:14:34 <bmcgee> it's the first transaction in the list of transactions for a block
1279 2013-07-12 20:15:00 <bmcgee> gdbz: ^^^
1280 2013-07-12 20:17:06 chorao has joined
1281 2013-07-12 20:18:20 squwiggle has joined
1282 2013-07-12 20:19:57 <bmcgee> anyone?
1283 2013-07-12 20:20:54 <mappum> bmcgee: don't expect an instant answer, people are slow
1284 2013-07-12 20:21:01 <mappum> and busy
1285 2013-07-12 20:21:33 <squwiggle> bmcgee: whats the question?
1286 2013-07-12 20:21:39 <bmcgee> mappum: understood
1287 2013-07-12 20:21:43 squwiggle is now known as xenland
1288 2013-07-12 20:21:54 <bmcgee> squwiggle: I'm trying to get a better understanding of the coinbase transaction in the context of mining
1289 2013-07-12 20:22:18 <bmcgee> as i'm understanding it it's the first transaction which has a single input which isn't connected to anything?
1290 2013-07-12 20:22:40 <bmcgee> that's to begin with
1291 2013-07-12 20:22:51 <bmcgee> have other questions but want to validate my understanding as i go along
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1293 2013-07-12 20:22:59 <mappum> bmcgee: correct
1294 2013-07-12 20:23:20 TD has joined
1295 2013-07-12 20:23:22 <mappum> bmcgee: since the coins are generated right there, the input isn't connected to anything
1296 2013-07-12 20:23:38 <bmcgee> ok cool, so as for the outputs. if you're trying to construct a coinbase for miners connected to a pool how do you construct the outputs such that it assigns the correct amount of generated coins
1297 2013-07-12 20:23:52 <bmcgee> is there a way of getting the current 'coin value' or whatever the term is
1298 2013-07-12 20:24:36 <bmcgee> or maybe i have this all wrong
1299 2013-07-12 20:24:45 <mappum> you would just split the 25+fees however you want to split it, and set the divisions as outputs
1300 2013-07-12 20:25:00 <bmcgee> ah see it's the 25 i'm curious about
1301 2013-07-12 20:25:06 <bmcgee> i know when bitcoin started it was more like 50
1302 2013-07-12 20:25:12 <bmcgee> obviously it changes
1303 2013-07-12 20:25:31 TD has quit (Client Quit)
1304 2013-07-12 20:25:51 <mappum> yeah, it halves every 210k blocks
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1307 2013-07-12 20:26:26 <bmcgee> the fees are just determined by finding out what's left over from the outputs of all the transactions in the block. but the 25, can that be computed then?
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1311 2013-07-12 20:27:11 <gwillen> bmcgee: there's a fixed pre-defined schedule for that value
1312 2013-07-12 20:27:14 <gwillen> it's hardcoded in the client
1313 2013-07-12 20:27:21 <bmcgee> does bitcoind expose it?
1314 2013-07-12 20:27:26 <gwillen> I don't actually know
1315 2013-07-12 20:27:34 <gwillen> it's an excellent question
1316 2013-07-12 20:27:45 <bmcgee> it would be handy if it did
1317 2013-07-12 20:27:48 <TD> which value?
1318 2013-07-12 20:28:00 <mappum> just do `50 >> Math.floor(block_height / 210000)`
1319 2013-07-12 20:28:13 <bmcgee> mappum: grand that works too
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1321 2013-07-12 20:28:47 <bmcgee> so just to be clear if i grab a block template from bitcoind the height field is the current block height ?
1322 2013-07-12 20:28:50 <mappum> but i guess that doesn't factor in fractional parts
1323 2013-07-12 20:28:50 <mappum> is the next reward 12 or 12.5?
1324 2013-07-12 20:28:56 <helo> 12.5
1325 2013-07-12 20:30:03 <helo> bmcgee: height + 1, from the look of it
1326 2013-07-12 20:30:18 <helo> at least - doing getinfo shows height, getblocktemplate shows height + 1
1327 2013-07-12 20:30:30 <bmcgee> i'm guessing to allow for the block you're going to generate
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1329 2013-07-12 20:30:45 <helo> right
1330 2013-07-12 20:30:54 <mappum> bmcgee: to fix my expression to factor in the stuff after the decimal point, `(50 * 100000 >> Math.floor(500000 / 210000)) / 100000`
1331 2013-07-12 20:31:04 <bmcgee> mappum: thx
1332 2013-07-12 20:31:15 * helo claps for mappum 
1333 2013-07-12 20:32:05 <mappum> only up to 1/100000 precision, it might break in 50 years
1334 2013-07-12 20:32:26 <bmcgee> so to calculate the coinbase outputs i can take the height in the blocktemplate, punch it into mappum's approach and that gives me the reward. then stripe through the transactions, diff the inputs with the outputs and the leftovers go towards fees. combine the two and then divide up amongst the coinbase outputs as i see fit?
1335 2013-07-12 20:32:52 <bmcgee> mappum: dude, only 50 years...
1336 2013-07-12 20:34:12 <mappum> change the 100000 to 100000000 and it should last forever
1337 2013-07-12 20:34:28 <helo> if you go up to 8 decimal places, and it goes to zero at block 6930000, you're doing it right :)
1338 2013-07-12 20:34:45 <mappum> bmcgee: yeah, that sounds right
1339 2013-07-12 20:35:13 <bmcgee> mappum: where is i substitute the current block height?
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1341 2013-07-12 20:35:54 <mappum> oops, i put 500000 there to make sure it was working :P
1342 2013-07-12 20:36:03 <bmcgee> ha i was wondering
1343 2013-07-12 20:36:10 <bmcgee> you were just testing me though...
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1347 2013-07-12 20:48:04 <helo> yeah, you'll want that last 100000 to be a float... so matching https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_Currency_Supply: ((50 * 100000000) >> int(floor((6510000-1) / 210000))) / 100000000.0
1348 2013-07-12 20:48:57 c0rw1n has joined
1349 2013-07-12 20:49:24 <c0rw1n> hrm
1350 2013-07-12 20:51:18 <helo> probably best to just deal in satoshi though
1351 2013-07-12 20:51:29 <bmcgee> helo: i was just about to ask about that
1352 2013-07-12 20:51:45 <bmcgee> so satoshis are to the eigth decimal place right?
1353 2013-07-12 20:51:53 <c0rw1n> yes
1354 2013-07-12 20:52:00 <helo> you won't find floor in the bitcoind source for that reason
1355 2013-07-12 20:52:11 <helo> errr float heh
1356 2013-07-12 20:52:37 <bmcgee> so hold on if i want to tweak that formula to give me the answer in satoshis?
1357 2013-07-12 20:53:09 <c0rw1n> then you count integer amounts of satoshis
1358 2013-07-12 20:53:39 <bmcgee> am i not right in thinking helo's approach gives the answer in satoshis
1359 2013-07-12 20:53:52 <bmcgee> 10 ^ 8 if i'm reading the zeros right
1360 2013-07-12 20:54:03 <helo> 5000000000 >> (height / 210000)
1361 2013-07-12 20:54:19 <helo> ^ that is for satoshi reward
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1363 2013-07-12 20:54:43 <bmcgee> cool thx
1364 2013-07-12 20:54:44 <helo> assuming integer division truncates
1365 2013-07-12 20:54:59 <bmcgee> i'm using longs for this
1366 2013-07-12 20:55:06 <bmcgee> well for the height
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1382 2013-07-12 21:33:19 <nanch> hi, anyone could helpme in understanding getwork() protocol?
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1384 2013-07-12 21:38:18 <nanch> my main questions are:
1385 2013-07-12 21:38:39 <nanch> 1. What does a pool or bitcoind send to miner? Which kind of data=
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1387 2013-07-12 21:39:14 <nanch> 2. How does the miner know if he did the work? I read about number of 0s and number that have to be < of target.. which one is correct?
1388 2013-07-12 21:39:29 <nanch> 3. What are shares? and why them are useful?
1389 2013-07-12 21:39:38 <nanch> thanks in advance
1390 2013-07-12 21:41:51 <mappum> 1. they send all the data to be in the block (tx's, the last hash, whatever) 2. below the target
1391 2013-07-12 21:42:29 <nanch> So, why all the transactions hashes start with a lot of 0s?
1392 2013-07-12 21:42:35 <mappum> 3. shares are proof of work that aren't quite low enough to be under the target, but enough to prove that a miner was mining. they are submitted to the pool so the pool can figure out how much they mined and how much to pay them
1393 2013-07-12 21:43:15 <nanch> and if I am a miner.. if I work on shares how can I also work on real target?
1394 2013-07-12 21:43:43 <mappum> you do, you're doing both at the same time
1395 2013-07-12 21:43:58 <nanch> how? dividing my hash power?
1396 2013-07-12 21:44:49 <mappum> no, it's the same calculation. each hash you do is a number output, sometimes the number is low enough to be a share, and if it is REALLY low, it is low enough to be a block
1397 2013-07-12 21:45:26 <nanch> I see! thanks.. I still do not understand why all those 0s in block hashes
1398 2013-07-12 21:46:00 <mappum> that's just because they had to be under the target. right now it is 00000000000000A4290000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
1399 2013-07-12 21:46:50 <nanch> okay, in int it is 1030450001678223668360152541055867895065240185756254103142400
1400 2013-07-12 21:46:51 <nanch> right?
1401 2013-07-12 21:47:33 <nanch> okok, I undestand a bit more now
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1403 2013-07-12 21:49:49 <nanch> so, the pool sends me data like 000000020597ba1f0cd423b2a3abb0259a54ee5f783077a4ad45fb6200000218000000008348d1339e6797e2b15e9a3f2fb7da08768e99f02727e4227e02903e43a42b31511553101a051f3c00000000000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000
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1405 2013-07-12 21:50:02 <nanch> from this, how can miner know all parameters he needs?
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1407 2013-07-12 21:51:21 <mappum> it should be sending a lot more, more like the actual block data, minus the nonce
1408 2013-07-12 21:51:58 <nanch> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork
1409 2013-07-12 21:53:12 <mappum> i think it would be bigger IRL
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1412 2013-07-12 21:55:43 <nanch> mappum, I'm actually sniffing connection between me and pool
1413 2013-07-12 21:55:49 <nanch> I got from pool those data:
1414 2013-07-12 21:55:55 <nanch> data
1415 2013-07-12 21:55:56 <nanch> hash1
1416 2013-07-12 21:55:59 <nanch> midstate
1417 2013-07-12 21:56:00 <nanch> target
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1419 2013-07-12 21:56:40 <nanch> and target is very different from actual target, is more like biggest target possible
1420 2013-07-12 21:56:46 <mappum> hmm, i guess a lot of the data isn't included in the actual hashing
1421 2013-07-12 21:57:06 <mappum> yeah, that's because that target is the target for shares, not blocks
1422 2013-07-12 21:57:15 <gmaxwell> mappum: It's all included.
1423 2013-07-12 21:57:31 <gmaxwell> However it isn't all in the header.
1424 2013-07-12 21:57:49 <nanch> gmaxwell, how can miner know what data have to hash?
1425 2013-07-12 21:57:53 <nanch> has*
1426 2013-07-12 21:57:55 <mappum> gmaxwell: how do tx's get to a miner? they aren't actually on the network are they?
1427 2013-07-12 21:58:39 <gmaxwell> mappum: they're on the network.
1428 2013-07-12 21:59:08 <gmaxwell> nanch: what do you mean by miner? Do you mean just dumb remote computation clients connected to pools? All they do is blindly hash headers.
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1430 2013-07-12 21:59:44 <nanch> I have my miner, in my case cgminer that speaks with my little hw..
1431 2013-07-12 21:59:52 <nanch> cgminer asks to pool for work
1432 2013-07-12 22:00:00 <nanch> what does the pool reply to it?
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1434 2013-07-12 22:00:12 <gmaxwell> The pool is the miner in the context of the bitcoin protocol.
1435 2013-07-12 22:00:16 <nanch> from my sniffing data I only see: data, hash1, midstate, target
1436 2013-07-12 22:00:29 <gmaxwell> the pool gives your cgminer a header and your header sweeps nonces and returns results.
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1439 2013-07-12 22:01:21 <nanch> it does sha256(sha256(header+nonce))
1440 2013-07-12 22:01:21 <nanch> ?
1441 2013-07-12 22:01:59 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1442 2013-07-12 22:03:08 <nanch> okay, and when I get for example: Accepted 41f9714f
1443 2013-07-12 22:03:13 <nanch> 41f9714f is the nonce that makes valid the shares?
1444 2013-07-12 22:03:50 <nanch> and all those other data like hash1, midstate are usefull in some kind?
1445 2013-07-12 22:04:28 <gmaxwell> The midstate gets ignored by all current miners.
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1448 2013-07-12 22:11:18 <nanch> gmaxwell, something is still not okay..
1449 2013-07-12 22:11:21 <nanch> so.. for example..
1450 2013-07-12 22:11:27 <nanch> I get this data from pool
1451 2013-07-12 22:11:34 <nanch> 000000023b4e451e4314283d62c4468c31867e478b1775a21fc9574b0000004b0000000051224d738018cb518834e298c9ae9787d5dd4a908ae7c917d9b07f7c10271c7051e077971a00a42900000000000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000
1452 2013-07-12 22:11:46 <nanch> and I solved the share with this nonce:
1453 2013-07-12 22:11:59 <nanch> 2b63c98c
1454 2013-07-12 22:12:15 <nanch> so, from what you told me I did:
1455 2013-07-12 22:12:24 <nanch> sha256(sha256(data+nonce))
1456 2013-07-12 22:12:32 <nanch> and I got: 4e71ca48e8c3a43906fb886ff7279b2778152f0b0d7decde81ebdeb0d5d049eb
1457 2013-07-12 22:13:13 <nanch> and now I have to do int(0x4e71ca48e8c3a43906fb886ff7279b2778152f0b0d7decde81ebdeb0d5d049eb) and see if it is < than int(0xtarget)
1458 2013-07-12 22:13:15 <nanch> right?
1459 2013-07-12 22:14:52 <gmaxwell> upto potential weirdness with byte order.
1460 2013-07-12 22:15:18 <nanch> what should I do?
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1465 2013-07-12 22:29:32 <nanch> anyone knows'
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1473 2013-07-12 22:51:57 <gmaxwell> ugh https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2824
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1478 2013-07-12 23:01:44 <k9quaint_> gmaxwell: what is the story with the weird byte order stuff in the hashing?
1479 2013-07-12 23:02:16 <k9quaint_> that was annoying to account for in verilog :|
1480 2013-07-12 23:02:49 <gmaxwell> k9quaint_: no mystery, all of satoshi's code was LE, most of the library code he used was BE.  No special effort was made to do anything about it, and so it ended up as it was.
1481 2013-07-12 23:03:12 <k9quaint_> I blame you for this
1482 2013-07-12 23:03:21 <k9quaint_> I want that 20 minutes of my life back
1483 2013-07-12 23:03:24 <gmaxwell> Sorry, I guess.
1484 2013-07-12 23:03:24 <k9quaint_> ;)
1485 2013-07-12 23:03:52 <gmaxwell> Byte order got you switched around? "First world problems".
1486 2013-07-12 23:03:54 <k9quaint_> afk making senseless posts for you to moderate
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1489 2013-07-12 23:08:01 <nanch> so, anyone knows how does it works? I mean, what I should do to get the real hash generated by the hw
1490 2013-07-12 23:08:01 <nanch> ?
1491 2013-07-12 23:08:01 <nanch> with info gained from pool?
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1510 2013-07-12 23:16:35 <nanch> I should reverse them?
1511 2013-07-12 23:16:45 <nanch> data or nonce?
1512 2013-07-12 23:17:06 <nanch> and, since I got an sort of hex nonce should I convert it in int before hashing?
1513 2013-07-12 23:17:15 <nanch> or keep it in hex encode?
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1515 2013-07-12 23:17:54 <gmaxwell> nanch: perhaps it would be prudent for me to ask what you're working on?
1516 2013-07-12 23:18:09 <nanch> just trying to understand how mining works
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1518 2013-07-12 23:18:20 <nanch> it is really confusing to me
1519 2013-07-12 23:18:35 <nanch> I read wiki and some other web pages but it is not really clear
1520 2013-07-12 23:19:25 <gmaxwell> I suggest grabbing a miner and walking through the source code then.
1521 2013-07-12 23:20:10 <nanch> I did it
1522 2013-07-12 23:20:13 <nanch> using cgminer
1523 2013-07-12 23:20:15 <loget> Does Satoshi reply to emails?
1524 2013-07-12 23:20:26 <nanch> I looked both at miner source code and miner driver
1525 2013-07-12 23:20:53 <gmaxwell> loget: Satoshi left a couple years ago.
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1527 2013-07-12 23:22:05 <theymos> satoshin@gmx.com probably gets so much mail that he couldn't possibly respond to everything anyway.
1528 2013-07-12 23:22:05 <nanch> gmaxwell, on driver to usb I have this line: usb_write(icarus, (char *)ob_bin, sizeof(ob_bin), &amount, C_SENDTESTWORK)
1529 2013-07-12 23:22:16 <nanch> but do not understand what those parameters are
1530 2013-07-12 23:22:25 <nanch> and I do not why but I can't sniff usb comm
1531 2013-07-12 23:22:33 <nanch> so, I tried to learn from pool to miner
1532 2013-07-12 23:22:38 <nanch> but I have problems also here
1533 2013-07-12 23:22:42 <loget> I'm sure he checks it
1534 2013-07-12 23:22:45 <gmaxwell> you should probably try with a simpler miner, like a simple python miner.
1535 2013-07-12 23:23:04 <nanch> do you know one? :)
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1537 2013-07-12 23:25:13 <nanch> pyminer is ok?
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1539 2013-07-12 23:25:46 <gmaxwell> for your understanding excercise I'm sure its better than cgminer.
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1544 2013-07-12 23:29:52 <nanch> thanks gmaxwell for help! ;) hope to understand better now, I go to work on it!
1545 2013-07-12 23:30:01 <gmaxwell> Good luck!
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1548 2013-07-12 23:30:11 <nanch> bye! ;)
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