1 2013-07-14 00:00:06 <TradeFortress> CodeShark, yes, if I don't get a deadlock in a couple days I will split 20 btc with people who have helped me :)
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  8 2013-07-14 00:33:36 <saulimus> the malware-ridden multibit clone is still online...  25 downloads so far
  9 2013-07-14 00:34:00 <saulimus> the author name just changed
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 56 2013-07-14 02:50:55 <owowo> ;;refesh
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 96 2013-07-14 05:23:59 <saivann> Network analysis attack? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=254615.40
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100 2013-07-14 05:29:54 <imton> sipa: you addrindex, did you change anything? should i recompile?
101 2013-07-14 05:30:07 <imton> *your
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106 2013-07-14 05:40:57 <DiabloD3> fuck.
107 2013-07-14 05:41:02 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: I NEED MORE HPMOR
108 2013-07-14 05:41:04 <pigeons> saivann: maybe that will encourage coin control merging
109 2013-07-14 05:41:09 <pigeons> no one sends me free money
110 2013-07-14 05:41:30 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: also, I love how the characters are slowly learning from harry
111 2013-07-14 05:41:40 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: you know what I dont get, btw?
112 2013-07-14 05:41:52 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: the ONLY change to the world is harry potter was raised by sane parents
113 2013-07-14 05:42:06 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: and he know understands math and science voodoo.
114 2013-07-14 05:42:11 <DiabloD3> er, now
115 2013-07-14 05:42:16 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: everyone else is the same
116 2013-07-14 05:43:02 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: yet, the dark lord is upping his game as fast as fucking possible
117 2013-07-14 05:43:23 <brendyn> Uh I'm pretty sure loads of characters are changed significantly, if only due to consequence of writing style
118 2013-07-14 05:44:41 <saivann> pigeons : maybe, I just hope that this does not become the next sensationalist subject about Bitcoin before it's actually improved.
119 2013-07-14 05:44:43 <DiabloD3> brendyn: well, yes and no
120 2013-07-14 05:45:01 <DiabloD3> brendyn: you can see the new improved harry potter's influence on them
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122 2013-07-14 05:45:28 <DiabloD3> they enter into the story as the original characters, but they veer off course soon as harry potter fiddles with their character sheets
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124 2013-07-14 05:45:48 <brendyn> DiabloD3: Quirell is also a bit of a rationalist. I don't remember much of the original quirell, was he like that?
125 2013-07-14 05:46:32 <DiabloD3> I havent read the books or seen the movies, but what Ive heard from harry potter fans that have started reading hpmor
126 2013-07-14 05:46:44 <DiabloD3> quirell has a role.
127 2013-07-14 05:46:58 <DiabloD3> a much expanded much bigger actually useful to the plot role
128 2013-07-14 05:47:22 <DiabloD3> I should actually sit down and read the original books, but I imagine I'll hate them
129 2013-07-14 05:47:38 <DiabloD3> fantasy novels that are full of plot holes and just make no fucking sense I cant deal with
130 2013-07-14 05:47:50 <brendyn> I can tell you then that the characters are changed in certain ways as a consequence of Eliezer being very different to Rowling
131 2013-07-14 05:47:57 <DiabloD3> brendyn: probably
132 2013-07-14 05:48:08 <DiabloD3> and I think eliezer is a better author, although, uh
133 2013-07-14 05:48:16 <brendyn> I'm speaking from from knowledge you dont have
134 2013-07-14 05:48:19 <DiabloD3> Im not sure how to quite put it but
135 2013-07-14 05:48:26 <DiabloD3> he has a writing quirk.
136 2013-07-14 05:48:53 <DiabloD3> Im not even sure how to explain it
137 2013-07-14 05:49:20 <brendyn> It stems from his massive corpus of rationalist knowledge
138 2013-07-14 05:49:28 <DiabloD3> I think so too
139 2013-07-14 05:49:31 <brendyn> It's made him a unique kind of person
140 2013-07-14 05:49:40 <DiabloD3> I mean, hes gone off the deep end
141 2013-07-14 05:49:45 <DiabloD3> how the hell does he even function irl?
142 2013-07-14 05:49:45 <brendyn> uh?
143 2013-07-14 05:49:59 <brendyn> what is wrong?
144 2013-07-14 05:50:09 <DiabloD3> well, nothing, in theory
145 2013-07-14 05:50:22 <DiabloD3> I mean, Ive read authors who were completely ... something irl.
146 2013-07-14 05:50:28 <DiabloD3> And I enjoyed their writings
147 2013-07-14 05:50:36 <DiabloD3> And I enjoy his writings
148 2013-07-14 05:50:40 <brendyn> I have no idea what your objection is
149 2013-07-14 05:50:47 <DiabloD3> I dont have an objection
150 2013-07-14 05:50:55 <DiabloD3> I just have no clue why the fuck he isnt massively rich by now
151 2013-07-14 05:51:02 <brendyn> what's that about the deep end then?
152 2013-07-14 05:51:13 <DiabloD3> brendyn: okay like
153 2013-07-14 05:51:26 <DiabloD3> ever talk to someone who is a lisp programmer?
154 2013-07-14 05:51:33 <DiabloD3> like, really one, that codes lisp every day
155 2013-07-14 05:51:37 <DiabloD3> (they are rare)
156 2013-07-14 05:51:39 <brendyn> I code lisp
157 2013-07-14 05:51:46 <DiabloD3> well you're no help.
158 2013-07-14 05:51:50 <brendyn> Atleast I'm learning
159 2013-07-14 05:52:05 <DiabloD3> well, you havent met a Real Programmer (™) until you have met a real lisp programmer
160 2013-07-14 05:52:14 <DiabloD3> it escapes from the part of the brain that they do programming in
161 2013-07-14 05:52:14 <brendyn> yeah, ok
162 2013-07-14 05:52:22 <DiabloD3> it intrudes into all parts of their lives
163 2013-07-14 05:52:32 <DiabloD3> in ways that cannot be easily explained
164 2013-07-14 05:53:17 <DiabloD3> lets try the opposite end of the spectrum
165 2013-07-14 05:53:27 <DiabloD3> ever meet someone thats read all of ayn rand's works and actually understands them?
166 2013-07-14 05:53:35 <brendyn> oh jesus
167 2013-07-14 05:53:39 <brendyn> no i haven't
168 2013-07-14 05:53:44 <DiabloD3> BE GLAD YOU HAVE NOT
169 2013-07-14 05:53:52 <DiabloD3> IT IS NOT A PLESANT EXPERIENCE
170 2013-07-14 05:54:10 <DiabloD3> but its like, every part of their lives just.... I dont know.
171 2013-07-14 05:54:19 <brendyn> But I think Lisp is legit.
172 2013-07-14 05:54:26 <DiabloD3> They are clearly not living in the same plane of reality the rest of us are
173 2013-07-14 05:54:42 <DiabloD3> they see the world in such a fundamentally different way
174 2013-07-14 05:55:12 <DiabloD3> and its not even wrong.
175 2013-07-14 05:55:22 <brendyn> Surely it is?
176 2013-07-14 05:55:33 <DiabloD3> well, the ayn rand people, sure, they're really wrong
177 2013-07-14 05:55:39 <DiabloD3> I just mean the whole... I dont know.
178 2013-07-14 05:55:51 <DiabloD3> I suspect its a form of religion almost.
179 2013-07-14 05:57:35 <DiabloD3> except instead of the colors "good" and "evil" you get shit like "charm" and "strange" or whatever
180 2013-07-14 05:57:49 <brendyn> you talking about a type of person i dont know about. someone that has read all of Ayn's stuff but sort of isnt proper objectivit?
181 2013-07-14 05:58:12 <DiabloD3> brendyn: no, Im saying a person who has read a subject to such extreme levels they... I dont know.
182 2013-07-14 05:58:17 <DiabloD3> they _become it_
183 2013-07-14 05:58:49 <brendyn> Sounds like you are judging people on very socially oriented criteria
184 2013-07-14 05:58:58 <DiabloD3> not quite
185 2013-07-14 05:59:02 <brendyn> Eliezer concerns himself with real problems
186 2013-07-14 05:59:10 <DiabloD3> social stuff is very built into the human existence
187 2013-07-14 05:59:15 <DiabloD3> we are shaped by other people
188 2013-07-14 05:59:25 <DiabloD3> I mean, literally, we are what other people think of us, both the good and the bad
189 2013-07-14 05:59:36 ksh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
190 2013-07-14 05:59:58 <DiabloD3> (and if we arent that, we eventually will become that unless we have a very strong will)
191 2013-07-14 06:00:58 <brendyn> You've gone way off track now.
192 2013-07-14 06:01:31 <brendyn> to the extent that I can't see your ideas in much fidelity. I'm just curious as to how you apply this to Eliezer
193 2013-07-14 06:02:02 <DiabloD3> well, Eliezer is one of these people I think who have been fundementally changed by something that isn't experienced through social contact
194 2013-07-14 06:02:15 <DiabloD3> he became a set of logical ideals at his core.
195 2013-07-14 06:02:40 <brendyn> Seems ok to me.
196 2013-07-14 06:02:59 <DiabloD3> I dunno, Ive never talked to him, but if he can write like that, I cant imagine what hes like irl
197 2013-07-14 06:03:09 <DiabloD3> theres no way in hell he can turn that off outside of writing
198 2013-07-14 06:03:09 <brendyn> Logical consistancy is something to strive for, and it turns out how have to change a lot to even get close
199 2013-07-14 06:03:28 <DiabloD3> Oh don't get me wrong, its not a bad thing
200 2013-07-14 06:03:31 <DiabloD3> Its just rare
201 2013-07-14 06:03:46 <brendyn> DiabloD3: Go type his name into Youtube and see him talk. It's bad to let yourself imagine what people are.
202 2013-07-14 06:04:02 <brendyn> I did the same, and then saw him and was like "Oh wow, I really didn't imagine him like that"
203 2013-07-14 06:07:41 <DiabloD3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwqYB1uzcU4
204 2013-07-14 06:07:48 <DiabloD3> hrm, he seeems normal
205 2013-07-14 06:08:10 <DiabloD3> btw, I have this paused at 2:44
206 2013-07-14 06:08:20 * DiabloD3 selects sequence 1
207 2013-07-14 06:08:37 <DiabloD3> AHAHA I KNEW IT
208 2013-07-14 06:08:57 <gwillen> DiabloD3: he talks the way he writes, but he does seem surprisingly normal to meet him
209 2013-07-14 06:09:07 <DiabloD3> ...
210 2013-07-14 06:09:14 <DiabloD3> so did gmaxwell just convert the entire channel or what?
211 2013-07-14 06:09:30 <gwillen> I would not describe myself as a 'convert'
212 2013-07-14 06:09:35 <warren> convert?
213 2013-07-14 06:09:36 <gwillen> and gmaxwell is not responsible
214 2013-07-14 06:09:54 <DiabloD3> warren: hes why a LOT of people in here know about hpmor
215 2013-07-14 06:10:23 <warren> I have no idea what HPMOR is.
216 2013-07-14 06:10:36 <DiabloD3> warren: REALLY?
217 2013-07-14 06:10:39 <brendyn> warren: fanfiction. go read it
218 2013-07-14 06:10:45 <gwillen> I read HPMoR long before I met gmaxwell
219 2013-07-14 06:10:53 <DiabloD3> http://hpmor.com/
220 2013-07-14 06:10:56 <gwillen> and I think I read lesswrong before I read hpmor
221 2013-07-14 06:10:59 <warren> won't that require having read the the non-fan-fiction first?
222 2013-07-14 06:11:01 <DiabloD3> warren: YOU MUST READ THIS NOW
223 2013-07-14 06:11:04 <gwillen> although I no longer remember
224 2013-07-14 06:11:04 <DiabloD3> warren: nope
225 2013-07-14 06:11:09 <DiabloD3> I have not read or seen harry potter
226 2013-07-14 06:11:13 <warren> oh
227 2013-07-14 06:11:14 <warren> o
228 2013-07-14 06:11:14 <warren> ok
229 2013-07-14 06:11:16 <gwillen> DiabloD3: huh, that's interesting
230 2013-07-14 06:11:18 <DiabloD3> yet I find this story engaging and worth reading
231 2013-07-14 06:11:25 <gwillen> I had wondered if someone who didn't know HP would enjoy HPMoR
232 2013-07-14 06:11:28 <DiabloD3> the conversation went like this
233 2013-07-14 06:11:35 <DiabloD3> <gmaxwell> read this harry potter fanfic
234 2013-07-14 06:11:39 <DiabloD3> <me> I hate harry potter
235 2013-07-14 06:11:43 <DiabloD3> <gmaxwell> good, you'll like this
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237 2013-07-14 06:11:52 <DiabloD3> and thus, I read it.
238 2013-07-14 06:12:07 <DiabloD3> and now I hate gmaxwell because Im suffering from new episode itis.
239 2013-07-14 06:12:09 <warren> I was working on bitcoin-ruby, but apparently this is the most important thing I need to do according to gmaxwell, forrestv and DiabloD3, then I need to switch contexts.
240 2013-07-14 06:12:20 <DiabloD3> warren: yes, its more important than that
241 2013-07-14 06:12:26 <warren> oh my
242 2013-07-14 06:12:26 <DiabloD3> code for a dead language can wait
243 2013-07-14 06:13:24 <DiabloD3> btw
244 2013-07-14 06:13:31 <DiabloD3> the version I imagined of this guy
245 2013-07-14 06:13:44 <DiabloD3> had a longer greyer beard.
246 2013-07-14 06:13:45 <warren> this is surprising, "produced with the consent and at the request of the author."
247 2013-07-14 06:13:46 <warren> really?
248 2013-07-14 06:13:49 <pigeons> Confucious say: Rockstar programmer are just as you and me but they can also able write insecure Ruby code.
249 2013-07-14 06:13:50 <warren> I thought she sued people a lot.
250 2013-07-14 06:14:01 <DiabloD3> warren: nope, she liked it so goddamned much she greenlighted it
251 2013-07-14 06:14:11 <warren> DiabloD3: wow
252 2013-07-14 06:14:25 <DiabloD3> yeah, I still dont understand that
253 2013-07-14 06:14:52 <gwillen> DiabloD3: you can always start reading some other fics
254 2013-07-14 06:14:52 <warren> well, if it really is good, and it's a derivative work,she can collect royalties for anything built from it that makes income
255 2013-07-14 06:14:59 <gwillen> DiabloD3: if you like D&D, I recommend Harry Potter and the Natural 20
256 2013-07-14 06:15:10 <gwillen> DiabloD3: I think I saw it from EY's recommended list
257 2013-07-14 06:15:13 <DiabloD3> gwillen: Ive been told thats good, but... I dont really like harry potter
258 2013-07-14 06:15:26 <gmaxwell> gwillen: HP&N20 is fun ... though its also incomplete and now coming along slowly.
259 2013-07-14 06:15:33 <gwillen> DiabloD3: but you like HPMoR apparently, and the author of HPMoR recommended it, so!
260 2013-07-14 06:15:42 <gwillen> gmaxwell: it updated today, is the only reason I even thought of it
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262 2013-07-14 06:16:35 <DiabloD3> you know what else is incomplete and slow?
263 2013-07-14 06:16:40 <warren> bitcoin?
264 2013-07-14 06:16:42 <DiabloD3> shinji and warhammer40k.
265 2013-07-14 06:16:47 <gwillen> gmaxwell: also, technically HPN20 is done
266 2013-07-14 06:16:54 <gwillen> gmaxwell: we're now on Harry Potter and the Confirmed Critical
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270 2013-07-14 06:20:23 <DiabloD3> btw
271 2013-07-14 06:20:25 <DiabloD3> this video
272 2013-07-14 06:20:30 <DiabloD3> this vest is clearly too small for him
273 2013-07-14 06:22:18 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: I just had a horrifying idea
274 2013-07-14 06:22:30 <DiabloD3> what if the world was as weird as fantasy authors make it out to be
275 2013-07-14 06:23:26 <warren> TradeFortress: how goes the deadlock issue?
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277 2013-07-14 06:27:16 <TradeFortress> warren, seems to have resolved but only been a while
278 2013-07-14 06:27:47 <warren> TradeFortress: let me guess, you're stuck on master because you can't downgrade to 0.8.3 for safety because of the privkeys written by the refactor?
279 2013-07-14 06:28:19 <warren> TradeFortress: I mean, it's totally awesome that you discovered this issue before 0.9, you saved the world a lot of grief.
280 2013-07-14 06:28:21 <DiabloD3> I should upgrade to 0.8.3
281 2013-07-14 06:28:35 <TradeFortress> yep lol. bitcoin foundation should buy me a car :D
282 2013-07-14 06:28:40 <DiabloD3> TradeFortress: no no no no
283 2013-07-14 06:28:42 <DiabloD3> bad TradeFortress
284 2013-07-14 06:28:49 <DiabloD3> you must specify a tesla model s
285 2013-07-14 06:28:54 <TradeFortress> lol
286 2013-07-14 06:30:03 <warren> TradeFortress: if nobody suggested it yet, 0.8.3 + privkey refactor + refactor fix might be safer than bitcoin master.
287 2013-07-14 06:30:35 <TradeFortress> I don't think the refactor fix lets people go back
288 2013-07-14 06:31:01 <warren> TradeFortress: yeah, that's why I suggest 0.8.3 + only refactor fix
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291 2013-07-14 06:32:05 <warren> TradeFortress: although if you're stable with master + shared lock fix then it's better for the world.
292 2013-07-14 06:32:13 <gmaxwell> warren: uh the refactor fix isn't relevant to 0.8.3.
293 2013-07-14 06:32:28 <warren> gmaxwell: it is if he's stuck with the "broken" wallet.dat
294 2013-07-14 06:32:44 <gmaxwell> then the refactor needs to be backported too.
295 2013-07-14 06:32:51 <warren> gmaxwell: he accidentally deployed bitcoin master into production without realizing it
296 2013-07-14 06:33:02 <gmaxwell> ::nods::
297 2013-07-14 06:33:03 <warren> gmaxwell: yeah, backport is trivial
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364 2013-07-14 10:17:27 <sipa> imton: the disk format changed, so it's incompatible with older versions
365 2013-07-14 10:18:14 <imton> sipa: ok, but…. what do you mean by "disk" ?
366 2013-07-14 10:20:28 CheckDavid has joined
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368 2013-07-14 10:21:03 <sipa> imton: database
369 2013-07-14 10:21:26 <sipa> the address index on disk created by earlier versions of my patch won't worj with newer
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379 2013-07-14 10:31:07 <warren> "Added locks on the setpwalletRegistered functions in main.cpp and added an UnregisterAllWallets function."
380 2013-07-14 10:31:13 <warren> I can't find the pull request that brought this in.
381 2013-07-14 10:31:49 tholenst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
382 2013-07-14 10:31:51 <sipa> do a git log, search for the 7 characters of the commitid
383 2013-07-14 10:32:01 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
384 2013-07-14 10:32:05 <sipa> you shoukd find the merge commit that made the change
385 2013-07-14 10:32:19 <sipa> which usually gets the pullreq described in it
386 2013-07-14 10:32:50 <sipa> warren: btw, i also read (mlst of) hpmor, but i never read hp (i did watch the movies though)
387 2013-07-14 10:32:55 <sipa> *most of
388 2013-07-14 10:32:59 <warren> sipa: hah
389 2013-07-14 10:33:08 <warren> sipa: I'm resisting for now.
390 2013-07-14 10:33:33 <warren> sipa: I see it in git log but I don't see a merge for it
391 2013-07-14 10:35:25 <sipa> indeed, me too
392 2013-07-14 10:35:37 <warren> Does that mean this person has direct commit access?
393 2013-07-14 10:35:55 peetaur2 has joined
394 2013-07-14 10:36:04 <warren> sipa: and this is what introduced the deadlock, right?
395 2013-07-14 10:37:00 <sipa> #2209
396 2013-07-14 10:37:02 <sipa> no
397 2013-07-14 10:37:44 <sipa> if it's a fast-forward update, a merge commit is not required
398 2013-07-14 10:41:24 <warren> oh, if the last rebase was done literally right before the merge?
399 2013-07-14 10:42:38 Skav has joined
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401 2013-07-14 10:52:56 <sipa> yes
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423 2013-07-14 12:30:01 <warren> hmm, does a git tree require a "master" branch?
424 2013-07-14 12:31:01 <sipa> do you mean 'git repository' instead of 'git tree' ?
425 2013-07-14 12:31:11 <warren> yeah
426 2013-07-14 12:32:05 <warren> thinking how to reorg the git repository here, given that we need to constantly rebase our protocol to newer versions of bitcoin, a "master" branch doesn't exactly work.
427 2013-07-14 12:32:36 <warren> rebase to every major release at least
428 2013-07-14 12:32:46 <warren> 0.8.3 -> 0.9
429 2013-07-14 12:33:03 <warren> 0.6 -> 0.8.3 -> 0.9
430 2013-07-14 12:35:17 swulf-- has joined
431 2013-07-14 12:37:29 <swulf--> can anyone explain what the deal is with transaction 2a0597e665ac3d1cabeede95cedf907934db7f639e477b3c77b242140d8cf728?  how is that 2nd output legit?
432 2013-07-14 12:37:41 <swulf--> ie, why did nodes accept this block/transaction?
433 2013-07-14 12:38:28 <swulf--> I'm guessing because an output script can quite literally be anything and you need an inputscript to make sense of it?
434 2013-07-14 12:40:47 <sipa> output scripts are only validated when they're being spent
435 2013-07-14 12:40:57 <swulf--> yeah, thought so
436 2013-07-14 12:41:03 <sipa> there is no earlier point at which you can evaluate them properly
437 2013-07-14 12:41:06 <swulf--> does EQUALVERIFY or CHECKSIG stop the program evaluation?
438 2013-07-14 12:41:44 MobPhone_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
439 2013-07-14 12:41:55 <sipa> OP_VERIFY stops evaluation if its input is not true
440 2013-07-14 12:42:03 <sipa> OP_EQUALVERIFY is OP_EQUAL + OP_VERIFY
441 2013-07-14 12:42:21 <sipa> there is also OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY which is OP_CHECKSIG + OP_VERIFY
442 2013-07-14 12:42:36 <sipa> so to answer your question: OP_EQUALVERIFY does, OP_CHECKSIG doesn't
443 2013-07-14 12:42:49 <swulf--> does VERIFY stop if the evaluation is true?
444 2013-07-14 12:42:52 <sipa> no
445 2013-07-14 12:43:18 <swulf--> does CHECKSIG modify the stack?
446 2013-07-14 12:43:42 <swulf--> i'm being lazy - i suppose i could just check the code :)
447 2013-07-14 12:43:44 <sipa> yes, it consumes a pubkey and a signature, and produces a true of false
448 2013-07-14 12:43:47 <sipa> *or
449 2013-07-14 12:44:34 <coingenuity> sipa: has anyone ever donated anything for all the time you take answering these questions?
450 2013-07-14 12:44:36 <swulf--> so that 2nd output of that script is going to require a bunch of OP_DUPs (or any infinite number of other solutions) to produce a correct program?
451 2013-07-14 12:45:06 <swulf--> sipa has helped me out a ton, if sipa gives me a btc address i'll tip him
452 2013-07-14 12:45:34 <coingenuity> ;;gpg info sipa
453 2013-07-14 12:45:35 <gribble> User 'sipa', with keyid B9A408E71DAAC974, fingerprint D762373D24904A3E42F33B08B9A408E71DAAC974, and bitcoin address None, registered on Thu Mar 24 13:45:20 2011. http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=sipa . Currently not authenticated.
454 2013-07-14 12:45:48 <coingenuity> bitcoin address None << old school lol
455 2013-07-14 12:46:05 <sipa> lol, no idea how long it's been since i used otc
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461 2013-07-14 12:47:03 <sipa> coingenuity: i do get donations from time to time
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463 2013-07-14 12:47:58 <warren> sipa: if you have a LTC address I'd like to send you a donation for secp256k1
464 2013-07-14 12:48:38 <coingenuity> sipa: post your address here, if you want :)
465 2013-07-14 12:48:40 sacredchao has joined
466 2013-07-14 12:48:43 <coingenuity> i'm sure you might see a few more ;)
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478 2013-07-14 13:00:20 <sipa> warren: where is your litecoin repo?
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480 2013-07-14 13:01:33 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin-0.8
481 2013-07-14 13:01:43 <warren> sipa: I'm in the process of reorganizing it.
482 2013-07-14 13:01:56 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin  <--- 0.6.x
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489 2013-07-14 13:04:12 <warren> sipa: that "master" is bitcoin and doesn't belong there.  "awesomecoin" is a messy tree.  "mark10b" contains the latest v0.8.3.5 release candidate, which is squashed and cleaned commits to be identical to awesomecoin.  "mark10" are Litecoin-specific commits, "btc09backports" are bitcoin-0.9 cherry-picks, the two branches combined become mark10b.
490 2013-07-14 13:04:27 <sipa> outch :)
491 2013-07-14 13:04:32 <sipa> just tell me which to try :p
492 2013-07-14 13:04:51 Guest17059 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
493 2013-07-14 13:04:52 <warren> sipa: mark10b is latest with GPG signed v0.8.3.5 tag
494 2013-07-14 13:06:30 <warren> When 0.8.x becomes an official release, markXXb will become "master" of some sort and pull requests for our 0.8.x series begin there.  folks can refer to awesomecoin for the dev history prior to squashing.
495 2013-07-14 13:07:14 <warren> The goal of the squashed rebase is to make it easier to audit the code.
496 2013-07-14 13:07:24 <sipa> k
497 2013-07-14 13:08:23 <warren> sipa: mark10b-cc is the same thing with Coin Control, extremely well tested at this point but we aren't shipping it by default because it lacks translations.  mark9b-ccsec is the last working version with secp256k1.  didn't rebase your commit yet.
498 2013-07-14 13:09:28 <sipa> how large is the litecoin chain now?
499 2013-07-14 13:09:38 <warren> blocks + db?
500 2013-07-14 13:09:50 <sipa> just order of magnitude
501 2013-07-14 13:13:22 <warren> 2.2GB for blocks/ directory, "height" : 388522, "transactions" : 426913, "txouts" : 13678856.  12M of those UTXO are 1-satoshi spam from the very early days prior to the anti-spam rules.
502 2013-07-14 13:15:53 <warren> sipa: https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,4371.0.html  GPG signed binaries, you can verify against your own gitian build.
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507 2013-07-14 13:24:37 <warren> I'm considering putting these branches into https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin and renaming the branches
508 2013-07-14 13:24:41 <warren> master-0.6
509 2013-07-14 13:24:43 <warren> master-0.8
510 2013-07-14 13:24:58 <warren> master will be blank with just README.md explaining the branches
511 2013-07-14 13:26:06 <sipa> you can just drop master, i think?
512 2013-07-14 13:26:21 <warren> what becomes the default if you have no master?
513 2013-07-14 13:26:29 <sipa> unsure
514 2013-07-14 13:27:00 <warren> README.md explaining the current state of the branches might work well, given we have too many, and our dev process is confusing with the constant need to rebase.
515 2013-07-14 13:27:08 <sipa> remote: error: refusing to delete the current branch: refs/heads/master
516 2013-07-14 13:27:09 <sipa> To git@github.com:sipa/bitcoin.git ! [remote rejected] master (deletion of the current branch prohibited)
517 2013-07-14 13:27:15 metabyte has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
518 2013-07-14 13:27:25 <warren> huh?
519 2013-07-14 13:27:32 <warren> oh
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521 2013-07-14 13:27:35 <sipa> i can't remove my 'master' branch (it's unused as well)
522 2013-07-14 13:27:48 <sipa> because it's the "current" branch according to github
523 2013-07-14 13:28:08 <warren> yeah, I think I'll just delete it locally, create a new one with just README.md, and push --force
524 2013-07-14 13:28:18 <warren> I *think* that'll work
525 2013-07-14 13:28:26 <sipa> yes that will work
526 2013-07-14 13:28:28 <sipa> ah
527 2013-07-14 13:28:48 <sipa> gitihub.com -> repo -> "settings" -> default branch: [select]
528 2013-07-14 13:29:06 <warren> coblee didn't give me access to those settings =P
529 2013-07-14 13:29:56 <warren> in any case I personally want the default branch to explain the mess of branches that we have.
530 2013-07-14 13:30:09 <sipa> ok
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532 2013-07-14 13:33:50 <warren> Hmm, it seems better to put the GPG signed tags in master rather than side-branches, because you can't have duplicate tags, and the version displayed in splash and about comes from the most recent annotated/signed tag.
533 2013-07-14 13:34:03 <warren> I'm not sure why it comes from THAT.
534 2013-07-14 13:34:09 <warren> seems inconvenient
535 2013-07-14 13:36:27 <sipa> what would you use for the version?
536 2013-07-14 13:37:03 <warren> whatever is in src/clientversion.h ?
537 2013-07-14 13:37:16 <sipa> that's useless, as it doesn't have the commit in it
538 2013-07-14 13:37:46 <warren> the commit is appended after the version anyway if you aren't building directly from an annotated tag
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540 2013-07-14 13:38:06 <sipa> hmm?
541 2013-07-14 13:38:24 <sipa> there are two mechanisms: one is using git-describe when available
542 2013-07-14 13:38:43 <sipa> another is putting the commit id statically in the source when exporting
543 2013-07-14 13:39:16 <sipa> git-describe is generally more informational, as it tells you what 'official' source a build is based on immediately
544 2013-07-14 13:39:31 <sipa> but it's somewhat more confusing when you have side branches
545 2013-07-14 13:39:58 <sipa> for example, as 0.8.1 was a side-branch, pre-releases to 0.8.2 where marked as 0.8.0-num-g<commit>
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547 2013-07-14 13:40:49 <sipa> but yeah, maybe the benefit of seeing ancestory is less than being more consistent and just using the configured version
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550 2013-07-14 13:45:04 <warren> I'll think more about this and have a proposal one day.  Just higher priorities now, like interviewing for jobs.
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553 2013-07-14 13:55:21 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin-0.8/commit/3da6dc7302899e95a811377c0517836f735c56fe  we want to submit this to upstream at some point.  The pools, charting sites and others who do data recording seem to like it.  Do you think Bitcoin would accept anything like this?
554 2013-07-14 13:55:33 <warren> sipa: we've had this for 2 years
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559 2013-07-14 14:02:21 <warren> sipa: another issue with tags, if bitcoin has a v0.9 tag, we can't make a corresponding release named v0.9 because you can't have duplicate tags.  I would need to add an artificial v0.9.1.  It wouldn't work to have something like v0.9L because distros don't allow letters in version numbers.
560 2013-07-14 14:03:42 * warren sleep
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564 2013-07-14 14:11:57 <sipa> warren: you can probably just not copy bitcoin's tag in some way
565 2013-07-14 14:16:54 <sipa> warren: i wouodn't object to such an RPC, but it can be implemented more accurately :)
566 2013-07-14 14:17:15 <sipa> by using the difference in bnChainWork
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570 2013-07-14 14:39:14 <Goonie> sipa: I've got a question about your dns seeder that Peter Todd is running for testnet. It does not answer to my DNS queries (e.g. dig testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org yields status SERVFAIL).
571 2013-07-14 14:39:33 <Goonie> sipa: Peter mentioned this might be due to unstandard usage of DNS.
572 2013-07-14 14:40:06 <sipa> eh, not that i know
573 2013-07-14 14:40:18 <sipa> afaik, it works fine for me
574 2013-07-14 14:40:40 <sipa> but i certainly don't know all details of dns, and it is possible i'm doing something non standard
575 2013-07-14 14:40:54 <Goonie> sipa: not for me. Testnet is basically unreachable from my lines here in Germany.
576 2013-07-14 14:41:02 c0rw1n has joined
577 2013-07-14 14:42:20 <sipa> well if you have more details i'll look into it
578 2013-07-14 14:42:29 <sipa> maybe petertodd knows the problem better
579 2013-07-14 14:42:52 <Goonie> sipa: I talked to him but at some point he referred to you because you wrote the software.
580 2013-07-14 14:44:11 <Goonie> sipa: messaged you the output of my dig command. What info do you need?
581 2013-07-14 14:44:49 <sipa> does his non-testnet seed work?
582 2013-07-14 14:45:29 <Goonie> I'm not aware of one. What's the address?
583 2013-07-14 14:45:39 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
584 2013-07-14 14:46:18 <sipa> hmm, maybe there is none
585 2013-07-14 14:47:37 <Goonie> ah, just noticed that your mainnet seed also fails: seed.bitcoin.sipa.be
586 2013-07-14 14:47:56 <sipa> aclloh
587 2013-07-14 14:47:58 <sipa> oh
588 2013-07-14 14:48:06 <sipa> that's interesting
589 2013-07-14 14:48:11 <Goonie> while dnsseed.bluematt.me works for example
590 2013-07-14 14:48:39 <sipa> what does dig -t NS seed.bitcoin.sipa.be give you?
591 2013-07-14 14:49:24 <Goonie> same SERVFAIL
592 2013-07-14 14:49:53 <sipa> and with '@vps.sipa.be' added to it?
593 2013-07-14 14:50:41 <Goonie> so the line is "dig -t NS seed.bitcoin.sipa.be @vps.sipa.be"?
594 2013-07-14 14:50:53 <Goonie> yields "seed.bitcoin.sipa.be.	40000	IN	NS	vps.sipa.be."
595 2013-07-14 14:51:15 <sipa> looks good
596 2013-07-14 14:52:05 <sipa> i wonder where the problem is
597 2013-07-14 14:52:31 <sipa> ;;later tell petertodd do you know what's nonstandard about my usage of DNS in bitcoin-seeder?
598 2013-07-14 14:52:31 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
599 2013-07-14 14:52:53 <Goonie> Peter mentioned you're using some non-standard/uncommon DNS stuff and maybe because of this my DNS server filters it
600 2013-07-14 14:53:40 <sipa> more details would be interesting :)
601 2013-07-14 14:56:28 <Goonie> Just found his mail:
602 2013-07-14 14:56:31 <Goonie> "Chances are there is some kind of DNS filtering or proxy between you and the outside world that is silently rewriting or blocking the DNS messages between you and the testnet seed servers. It could be a firewall for instance. The testnet seed DNS server is custom code so it's likely there is something unusual about it compared to standard DNS servers.""
603 2013-07-14 14:58:05 <Goonie> dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org also has the problem.
604 2013-07-14 14:58:40 <Goonie> That means 3 out of 5 seeds preconfigured in bitcoinj have this problem. (I'm not sure about bitcoin-qt.)
605 2013-07-14 15:01:05 <sipa> that shouldn't matter
606 2013-07-14 15:01:19 <sipa> if you have it in bitcoinj, it will be elsewhere too
607 2013-07-14 15:01:34 <sipa> as you demonstrated it with dig as well
608 2013-07-14 15:02:27 <sipa> but i have no idea what is non-standard about my implementation
609 2013-07-14 15:02:51 <sipa> (not arguing that it is, just that i have no idea where to begin looking)
610 2013-07-14 15:03:25 <sipa> some verbose instance that logs received queries would be useful to debug that
611 2013-07-14 15:03:31 <sipa> but i have no time for that now
612 2013-07-14 15:07:08 peter__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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614 2013-07-14 15:11:43 <Goonie> Do you know if there is a way to trace how a DNS query runs?
615 2013-07-14 15:11:56 <Goonie> sipa: something like a tracert for dns
616 2013-07-14 15:13:08 Jere_Jones has joined
617 2013-07-14 15:15:10 <sipa> usually your isp's dns servers are recursive
618 2013-07-14 15:15:29 <sipa> so they do the query on your behalf, and return the result to you
619 2013-07-14 15:15:35 <sipa> instead of redirecting you
620 2013-07-14 15:15:48 <sipa> so you don't actually know what they are doing
621 2013-07-14 15:15:49 <Goonie> sipa: just tried to be recursive myself by adding +trace, and that works.
622 2013-07-14 15:16:05 <sipa> i'm pretty sure that will work
623 2013-07-14 15:16:11 <Goonie> sipa: guess that skips my ISPs server
624 2013-07-14 15:16:15 <sipa> yes
625 2013-07-14 15:16:20 <sipa> i assume so
626 2013-07-14 15:16:25 <sipa> one possibility perhaps
627 2013-07-14 15:16:39 <sipa> is that some server is trying to contact my dns server using tcp
628 2013-07-14 15:16:48 <sipa> which it doesn't implement
629 2013-07-14 15:17:06 <Goonie> sipa: How can I know? It appears to be a black box to me.
630 2013-07-14 15:17:40 <sipa> how do you know what your isp's dns server does?
631 2013-07-14 15:17:58 <sipa> run a test dns server yourself that logs queries, and let your isp resolve it
632 2013-07-14 15:18:56 <Goonie> sipa: That's an idea.
633 2013-07-14 15:20:25 <Goonie> sipa: Let's assume for a second that TCP is the problem - would you be willing to implement it?
634 2013-07-14 15:21:20 <Goonie> sipa: Is there source available somewhere?
635 2013-07-14 15:21:39 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder
636 2013-07-14 15:21:52 <sipa> and adding tcp support wouldn't be much work i think
637 2013-07-14 15:23:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: in idle interest, did a public network from scratch resync w/ git on an 3.2ghz ivybridge + ssd, took 9 hours 45 minutes; one interesting fact is that the network interface shows 12302873787 rx, 507501394 tx which I think is about 25% overhead over the blocks themselves.
638 2013-07-14 15:24:29 Subo1978 has joined
639 2013-07-14 15:24:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think we need to increase the re-request timeout
640 2013-07-14 15:24:44 <sipa> what happens now is that you ask for 500 blocks at once
641 2013-07-14 15:24:45 <gmaxwell> The log shows 19085 'ProcessBlock() : already have block'
642 2013-07-14 15:25:03 <sipa> and if some of those don't arrive within a minute (iirc) after asking
643 2013-07-14 15:25:09 <sipa> they are candidates to be asked again
644 2013-07-14 15:25:12 fanquake has joined
645 2013-07-14 15:25:45 <sipa> it'd be much saner to track per connection whether it's still active, and if not, remove the invs asked on it from the global alreadyasked table
646 2013-07-14 15:26:04 <sipa> but a stopgap solution is perhaps to just increase that timeout
647 2013-07-14 15:27:52 Subo1978_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
648 2013-07-14 15:31:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: sum of sizes of the 'alread have' blocks is 1892925095 bytes, so yes, thats most of my apparent overhead.
649 2013-07-14 15:33:49 <gmaxwell> I imagine that its worse on a system with more limited bandwidth.
650 2013-07-14 15:33:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: could you test whether increasing the timeout (net.h, CNode::AskFor(const CInv&)) improves that?
651 2013-07-14 15:35:14 <gmaxwell> I did a benchmark syncing on tor last week too— it finished in <24 hours, but my data collection was goofed up by the fact that I did it on my laptop and it was suspended on it a couple times (because I hadn't yet figured how how to disable suspend on lid close in my new OS install)
652 2013-07-14 15:35:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure, what kind of number are you thinking of there? 5 minutes?
653 2013-07-14 15:36:32 <sipa> currently it's 2, i'd try with something significantly higher
654 2013-07-14 15:36:56 <sipa> assume your peer has 30 KiB/s upload - how long would 500 blocks take?
655 2013-07-14 15:37:21 <sipa> 70 minutes...
656 2013-07-14 15:37:43 <sipa> i guess that explains why we see retransmits
657 2013-07-14 15:38:14 <gmaxwell> yea... eerk
658 2013-07-14 15:38:47 <gmaxwell> uh, perhaps we also need to change our request granularity... fetching more than 10mbytes at a time probably has diminishing returns.
659 2013-07-14 15:39:02 <sipa> except the request side doesn't know the size
660 2013-07-14 15:39:14 <sipa> the sending side however can truncate at will
661 2013-07-14 15:39:24 <gmaxwell> Sure, but you could feed-forward: just assume the next one will have the same average size as the last.
662 2013-07-14 15:39:38 <gmaxwell> ah. that. hm.
663 2013-07-14 15:39:40 <sipa> so it should perhaps refuse to answer using more than 2 minutes worth of upload time at once
664 2013-07-14 15:39:45 <sipa> if it knows its own upload
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666 2013-07-14 15:40:09 <gmaxwell> Likewise, it too could feed forward. "my transmission rate is the same as my last apparent rate to this peer"
667 2013-07-14 15:40:17 Jasmin68k has joined
668 2013-07-14 15:40:17 <sipa> yeah
669 2013-07-14 15:41:12 <gmaxwell> okay, I'll try raising it to 70 minutes and see how it goes, just to make sure there aren't any other causes.
670 2013-07-14 15:42:47 <gmaxwell> Even if it reduces the time by 15% however, thats still taking rather long. :(
671 2013-07-14 15:43:22 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
672 2013-07-14 15:43:38 <sipa> i'll think about rewriting the mapAlreadyAskedFor logic
673 2013-07-14 15:44:48 <sipa> one global inv -> (node*, time) map, with the entries forming a linked list in order of request time
674 2013-07-14 15:44:58 <sipa> and then per node just a set of waitingforinv's
675 2013-07-14 15:45:03 <gmaxwell> heh. 70 * 60 * 1000000 overflows int. :P
676 2013-07-14 15:45:20 <sipa> ha
677 2013-07-14 15:45:24 <sipa> thank god for 64 bits
678 2013-07-14 15:45:39 <sipa> or otherwise
679 2013-07-14 15:45:40 hsmiths has joined
680 2013-07-14 15:46:11 <sipa> let's use 1.0226 us as a base unit
681 2013-07-14 15:52:00 egis has joined
682 2013-07-14 15:59:03 <sipa> warren: rebased my secp256k1 branch to bitcoin master and secp256k1 master
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706 2013-07-14 17:20:36 <bmcgee> hey anyone here running cgminer on a mac mini
707 2013-07-14 17:21:39 <Luke-Jr> bmcgee: #bitcoin-mining
708 2013-07-14 17:22:10 <bmcgee> thx
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740 2013-07-14 18:36:09 * Luke-Jr wonders when this May15 hardfork is going to ever happen, sigh
741 2013-07-14 18:37:17 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is so robust it won't even fail when we want it to.
742 2013-07-14 18:38:19 Subo1978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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744 2013-07-14 18:39:00 <Luke-Jr> XD
745 2013-07-14 18:39:30 <CheckDavid> If you want it to fail, and it fails, then it didn't fail.
746 2013-07-14 18:40:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: simultaneously with a block size limit hardfork, i guess
747 2013-07-14 18:40:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: meh, I doubt that's the next hardfork
748 2013-07-14 18:41:09 bmcgee has joined
749 2013-07-14 18:41:23 <Luke-Jr> we have to change the POW before 2014 to make Kaminsky happy, right?
750 2013-07-14 18:41:24 <Luke-Jr> :p
751 2013-07-14 18:41:37 <sipa> unless someone intentionally creates a block vlose to the limit in size, with an above-average of txins-per-txout
752 2013-07-14 18:41:58 <gmaxwell> I thought that had been done.
753 2013-07-14 18:42:36 <sipa> luke tried, durimg the horsestaplebattery flood, resulting in a very low txins-per-txout ratio
754 2013-07-14 18:43:00 <Luke-Jr> didn't try hard enough
755 2013-07-14 18:43:01 <sipa> afaik
756 2013-07-14 18:43:14 <DiabloD3> sipa: the _what_?
757 2013-07-14 18:43:15 <Luke-Jr> seems like I'd need to do some kind of txid-based filtering
758 2013-07-14 18:43:22 <Luke-Jr> maybe I should add that anyway
759 2013-07-14 18:43:37 bmcgee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
760 2013-07-14 18:43:48 <gmaxwell> Are there remaining correcthorse txouts?
761 2013-07-14 18:44:00 * DiabloD3 has no clue whats going on here
762 2013-07-14 18:44:02 <gmaxwell> presumably some mixture of redeeming existing junk could get the desired ratios.
763 2013-07-14 18:44:04 * DiabloD3 isnt sure if he wants to know
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766 2013-07-14 18:44:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: might be fun to make a little dust sweeper python script that you run, and it finds all your dust and creates any anyone can pay signature and sends it off to some server
767 2013-07-14 18:45:14 <gmaxwell> which assembles a single gigantic sweep up transaction which you mine
768 2013-07-14 18:45:24 <nsh> hmm
769 2013-07-14 18:45:27 <nsh> nice
770 2013-07-14 18:45:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: dunno, bdb is scary :P
771 2013-07-14 18:45:49 <gmaxwell> (just give it a zero value OP_RETURN output, and pay the swept dust to the pool)
772 2013-07-14 18:46:11 <Luke-Jr> zero value = dust!
773 2013-07-14 18:46:12 <Luke-Jr> :P
774 2013-07-14 18:46:51 <Luke-Jr> besides, people would probably prefer Bitcoin-Qt sweep the dust on its own, in their own transactions
775 2013-07-14 18:47:29 <Luke-Jr> eg, after making any transaction, try to add the smallest coins <=DUST to it as long as the fee doesn't change
776 2013-07-14 18:50:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: fee always changes if there is a fee. :(
777 2013-07-14 18:50:11 <gmaxwell> also that makes deanonymization attacks more powerful. :(
778 2013-07-14 18:50:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no..
779 2013-07-14 18:50:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I can lots of dust to a high-priority no-fee txn, and still send with no-fee and get it confirmed in the next block
780 2013-07-14 18:50:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I know the current coin select quantizes, but thats not actually how the mining code works.
781 2013-07-14 18:50:53 <gmaxwell> yes, if you're no fee then yea, you can do that.
782 2013-07-14 18:51:08 <gmaxwell> still leaves the incentivizes deanonymization attacks issue.
783 2013-07-14 18:51:25 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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785 2013-07-14 18:51:51 <Luke-Jr> hm
786 2013-07-14 18:51:55 <gmaxwell> (where people send 0.0001 BTC to every previously used 'identifyable' address with no currently assigned outputs, in hope of linking more addresses)