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   5 2013-07-16 00:05:28 <xavier23> Hello people - is there a publicly accessible version of the `bitcoinj` docs available anywhere?
   6 2013-07-16 00:05:47 <xavier23> javadoc
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 111 2013-07-16 03:00:01 <amiller> who's nogleg?
 112 2013-07-16 03:00:08 <amiller> http://blockchain.info/hub-nodes
 113 2013-07-16 03:00:19 <amiller> relays so many transactions to blockchain.info
 114 2013-07-16 03:01:22 <gmaxwell> presumably someone running that python spamming thing that just relays everything without any validation at all, not even checking the hash.
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 117 2013-07-16 03:02:18 <amiller> gmaxwell, which python spamming thing?
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 119 2013-07-16 03:04:16 <gmaxwell> this guys software: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=49
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 125 2013-07-16 03:05:14 <gmaxwell> I can't seem to find it now.
 126 2013-07-16 03:06:01 <gmaxwell> In any case, it's just software that reads and write bitcoin messages and relays stuff as fast as possible with no validation. As a result people who run it just end up getting blacklisted by nodes.
 127 2013-07-16 03:06:16 <gmaxwell> (because it relays garbage too)
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 161 2013-07-16 04:03:12 <Diablo-D3> http://community.namecheap.com/blog/2013/07/15/bitcoin-zero-confirmation/
 162 2013-07-16 04:04:19 <gmaxwell> Sure? why not— even without reading the url: they can revoke your name if your transaction is reversed.
 163 2013-07-16 04:04:34 <gmaxwell> and presumably they can couple that to some other anti-dos methods.
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 254 2013-07-16 07:42:39 <fanquake> Just experienced the chainstate db uncorrupting itself for the second time. Both times I've aborted the db rebuild and turned my comp off/on, then Qt opens fine with no corruption.
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 257 2013-07-16 07:47:39 <gmaxwell> fanquake: what you're describing is impossible as you describe it.
 258 2013-07-16 07:48:36 <gmaxwell> You were in the middle of a rebuild? the old chainstate data has been _destroyed_ at that point.  Presumably whats happening is that its just leaving you at whatever height it was at and its catching back up in the background... is that possibly consistent with your expirence?
 259 2013-07-16 07:48:49 <fanquake> No not in the middle of the rebuild
 260 2013-07-16 07:49:02 <fanquake> I chose to abort the rebuild, i.e not do it.
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 263 2013-07-16 07:50:09 <gmaxwell> hm!
 264 2013-07-16 07:50:17 <gmaxwell> What OS?
 265 2013-07-16 07:50:28 <fanquake> osx 10.8.4
 266 2013-07-16 07:51:22 <fanquake> I made a ticket ( https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2785) when it happened the first time, and it has the debug log. Although it doesn't really offer any insight. I'll upload the latest log to that ticket.
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 284 2013-07-16 08:23:39 <toffoo> fanquake maybe this https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770
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 307 2013-07-16 09:14:14 <petertodd> First use of OP_RETURN in production: c4397247190d3f8d88b587990d1c374d6b0ae25ebf9ced81ea8b69665b43d7de (first p2pool block after the v13 hardfork)
 308 2013-07-16 09:14:47 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 309 2013-07-16 09:15:21 <petertodd> Heh, pretty sure that's the first idea of mine ever actually implemented in production too...
 310 2013-07-16 09:16:10 * petertodd needs to write more code.
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 313 2013-07-16 09:20:21 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, what's that do?
 314 2013-07-16 09:20:48 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Proves that the transaction can't be spent, and thus it doesn't need to be added to the UTXO set.
 315 2013-07-16 09:21:06 <phantomcircuit> oh
 316 2013-07-16 09:21:23 <phantomcircuit> i assume the data after it is just something for p2pool people
 317 2013-07-16 09:21:36 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I'm probably not the first person to think of that, but I got that particular standard agreed on and got forrestv to change p2pool to use it.
 318 2013-07-16 09:21:47 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Yup, that's the hash of the sharechain.
 319 2013-07-16 09:22:15 <phantomcircuit> i have not a clue how p2pool works so i'll stick with "for p2pool"
 320 2013-07-16 09:22:20 <petertodd> heh
 321 2013-07-16 09:23:00 <phantomcircuit> pretty far into the realm of things i dont care about
 322 2013-07-16 09:23:00 <phantomcircuit> :)
 323 2013-07-16 09:23:21 <phantomcircuit> im sure you're not interested in my high performance trading platform either
 324 2013-07-16 09:23:27 <phantomcircuit> (250k orders/second actual!)
 325 2013-07-16 09:23:52 <petertodd> worth understanding - I can credit p2pool for my probabalistic payments idea
 326 2013-07-16 09:24:01 <petertodd> damn, that's fast...
 327 2013-07-16 09:24:22 <phantomcircuit> well on my workstation it only does 100/second with fsync enabled
 328 2013-07-16 09:24:22 <petertodd> 8000cycles/order
 329 2013-07-16 09:24:39 <petertodd> (on 2GHz single core)
 330 2013-07-16 09:24:41 <phantomcircuit> but i dont have the 500k for the io subsystems necessary to do 250k flush ops/second
 331 2013-07-16 09:25:20 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the central limit orderbook code is more like 1.25m/second
 332 2013-07-16 09:25:22 <petertodd> yeah, I was thinking the issue must be to keep the minimum work required for cocurrency down - not easy
 333 2013-07-16 09:25:40 <phantomcircuit> the limit is largely that im using the native java thread queues
 334 2013-07-16 09:26:05 <phantomcircuit> which are good but for something where the tightloop takes on the order of 2k cycles sluggish
 335 2013-07-16 09:26:33 <petertodd> huh, so is this 250k orders/second for one asset class, or across several?
 336 2013-07-16 09:26:47 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, per asset class
 337 2013-07-16 09:27:14 <phantomcircuit> well actually im being lazy so it's a global system with multiple orderbooks, but if i was less lazy it could be per asset fairly easily
 338 2013-07-16 09:27:20 imton has joined
 339 2013-07-16 09:27:29 <petertodd> So am I correct in thinking the issue is the mimimum amount of work required to save and retrieve state in such a system?
 340 2013-07-16 09:27:48 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the primary limit is cpu cache misses
 341 2013-07-16 09:27:59 <phantomcircuit> which seems absurd but...
 342 2013-07-16 09:28:16 <petertodd> Heh, I'm thinking theoretical limits, not the implementation, but yeah, to have cache misses be the problem sounds about right...
 343 2013-07-16 09:28:17 <phantomcircuit> the key is figuring out how to horizontally shard users across multiple servers
 344 2013-07-16 09:28:23 <Scrat> phantomcircuit: which is ok since each asset can run in its own cpu
 345 2013-07-16 09:28:28 <Scrat> on*
 346 2013-07-16 09:28:42 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, well they would actually need something more like their own system
 347 2013-07-16 09:29:09 <phantomcircuit> i suspect a multi cpu system would actually be slower than a single cpu system
 348 2013-07-16 09:29:28 <phantomcircuit> sharing information between the two takes ~1k ns
 349 2013-07-16 09:29:37 <phantomcircuit> compared to 15ns to share cache lines on the same cpu
 350 2013-07-16 09:30:09 <phantomcircuit> oh and did i mention i did this all in java
 351 2013-07-16 09:30:10 <phantomcircuit> heh
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 354 2013-07-16 09:30:22 <phantomcircuit> c++ orderbook trivially does 5m orders/second
 355 2013-07-16 09:30:30 iwilcox has joined
 356 2013-07-16 09:30:31 <phantomcircuit> but it's too much like running with scissors
 357 2013-07-16 09:30:31 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: What's so impressive about doing it in a language compiled to machine code? :P
 358 2013-07-16 09:30:55 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: What do you say doing it with custom FPGA's is like?
 359 2013-07-16 09:31:10 <phantomcircuit> nobody does this with custom fpgas
 360 2013-07-16 09:31:24 <phantomcircuit> those are all running in house trading strategies
 361 2013-07-16 09:31:46 <petertodd> ah, ok
 362 2013-07-16 09:31:47 <phantomcircuit> or running the much simpler request for quote style messaging networks
 363 2013-07-16 09:32:04 <phantomcircuit> when most people think high frequency trading they're thinking about a request for quote messaging network
 364 2013-07-16 09:32:12 <phantomcircuit> which isn't at all like a central limit order book
 365 2013-07-16 09:32:20 <petertodd> the EE press runs stories every so often about the crazy hardware financial people are creating from scratch
 366 2013-07-16 09:32:26 <phantomcircuit> indeed many of the HFT things dont even work with a CLOB
 367 2013-07-16 09:32:31 <phantomcircuit> since you cant race anybody
 368 2013-07-16 09:33:07 andyh2 has joined
 369 2013-07-16 09:33:08 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the biggest thing they do is have NIC's that DMA packets directly to user space
 370 2013-07-16 09:33:15 <phantomcircuit> and then run ip stacks in user space
 371 2013-07-16 09:33:21 <phantomcircuit> some of them dont even run an ip stack
 372 2013-07-16 09:33:30 <phantomcircuit> just ethernet frame parsing
 373 2013-07-16 09:33:53 <phantomcircuit> but that's pretty safe as long as you assume you're going to lose/miss messages regularly
 374 2013-07-16 09:33:54 <phantomcircuit> which they do
 375 2013-07-16 09:34:31 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yeah, what the EE press talks about is mainly ethernet optimization - kinda like real-time ethernet implementations, except I assume the financial guys actualy only care about average latency
 376 2013-07-16 09:35:24 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, most of them are dealign with RFQ systems where you can cancel an order even after it's placed
 377 2013-07-16 09:35:32 <petertodd> on, I'd never read about RFQ trading, so it's purely trades against market makers?
 378 2013-07-16 09:35:56 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, not exactly it's basically a broadcast network in which you spam everybody with a request for quote
 379 2013-07-16 09:36:03 <phantomcircuit> in some systems only the market makers respond
 380 2013-07-16 09:36:07 <phantomcircuit> in others anybody can respond
 381 2013-07-16 09:36:22 <phantomcircuit> but because in almost all of them you can cancel losing orders after the fact
 382 2013-07-16 09:36:35 <phantomcircuit> they're mostly worried about minimum latencies rather than average/max
 383 2013-07-16 09:36:36 <petertodd> ah ok, so you spam your messaeg, others respond with an offer, and there's some period that you can cancel orders?
 384 2013-07-16 09:37:01 <phantomcircuit> right since you could conceivably accept multiple offers for the same quote
 385 2013-07-16 09:37:10 <phantomcircuit> and then you cancel the ones you decide you dont want
 386 2013-07-16 09:37:14 <petertodd> oh, so even if average latency was bad, their trading strategies can make use of them getting occasional very low latency orders?
 387 2013-07-16 09:37:18 <phantomcircuit> it's all very ridiculous
 388 2013-07-16 09:37:30 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, right
 389 2013-07-16 09:38:09 <petertodd> it does all sound like a case where there's a set of arbitrary rules, and people have optimized the heck out of the strategies... not so different from my ideas about bitcoin stuff really
 390 2013-07-16 09:38:26 <phantomcircuit> pretty much
 391 2013-07-16 09:38:35 <phantomcircuit> well the rules weren't arbitrary at some point
 392 2013-07-16 09:38:49 <phantomcircuit> they're all from when people would be shouting at each other to accept an offer
 393 2013-07-16 09:39:17 <phantomcircuit> then all the rules carried over to electronic messaging networks
 394 2013-07-16 09:39:22 <phantomcircuit> where they dont particularly make sense
 395 2013-07-16 09:39:26 <petertodd> true, they just look arbitrary these days because the tech has changed so much
 396 2013-07-16 09:39:44 <phantomcircuit> especially in light of people like me being able to write CLOB's which do 250k orders/second without much in the way of resources
 397 2013-07-16 09:40:01 <phantomcircuit> but RFQ systems tend to make the market makers a lot of money
 398 2013-07-16 09:40:05 <phantomcircuit> which is why they still exist
 399 2013-07-16 09:40:06 <petertodd> so the issue is that in a CLOB the whole book is always visible
 400 2013-07-16 09:40:24 <petertodd> sounds like RFQ systems are a worse deal for those genuinely wanting good price discovery
 401 2013-07-16 09:40:32 <phantomcircuit> pretty much
 402 2013-07-16 09:40:50 <phantomcircuit> RFQ systems the orderbook is more or less a cached copy of the orders other people have said they want
 403 2013-07-16 09:41:04 <petertodd> which implies in a rational market the only RFQ participants would be HFT players, resulting in a zero-sum game for them...
 404 2013-07-16 09:41:05 <phantomcircuit> but those other people can cancel their orders or just not accept any offers
 405 2013-07-16 09:41:19 <phantomcircuit> which is also why the SEC has tons of rules to stop shenanigans
 406 2013-07-16 09:41:28 <phantomcircuit> except of course the rules have loopholes
 407 2013-07-16 09:41:44 <phantomcircuit> not intentionally but because this all gets crazy complex very fast
 408 2013-07-16 09:41:46 <petertodd> yeah, people always forget that the stock market, bastion of free market capitalism, is the *most* regulated industry on the planet
 409 2013-07-16 09:41:50 MC1984_ has joined
 410 2013-07-16 09:42:07 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, it's part of the reason all the bitcoin exchanges are CLOB's
 411 2013-07-16 09:42:09 DiabloD3 has joined
 412 2013-07-16 09:42:22 <phantomcircuit> it's hard to manipulate a market in which your attempt at manipulation might get executed
 413 2013-07-16 09:42:23 <phantomcircuit> :)
 414 2013-07-16 09:42:27 <petertodd> hehe
 415 2013-07-16 09:43:00 <petertodd> although... what's interesting is the RFQ model is the only one that can be decentralized, but with fidelity bonds and a bunch of rules you could turn RFQ into CLOB...
 416 2013-07-16 09:43:04 <phantomcircuit> sequence_id   11990000 bids        0 asks     4673 nanoseconds 207270854567257
 417 2013-07-16 09:43:04 <phantomcircuit> sequence_id   11010000 bids        0 asks     3681 nanoseconds 207266812968773
 418 2013-07-16 09:43:29 <phantomcircuit> ;;calc (11990000-11010000)/(207270854567257-207266812968773) / 10 ** 9
 419 2013-07-16 09:43:30 <gribble> 0
 420 2013-07-16 09:43:41 <phantomcircuit> ;;calc (11990000-11010000)/((207270854567257-207266812968773) / 10 ** 9)
 421 2013-07-16 09:43:42 <gribble> 242478.317398
 422 2013-07-16 09:44:09 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, you'd end up with a pretty complex market place though
 423 2013-07-16 09:44:15 <phantomcircuit> im sure it's possible
 424 2013-07-16 09:44:19 <phantomcircuit> im not sure it's practical
 425 2013-07-16 09:44:58 <petertodd> for sure, heck, anytime you use fidelity bonds with automated systems the result is horrendously complex, which is probably why no-one has ever tried
 426 2013-07-16 09:45:12 <phantomcircuit> ;;calc 2*10**9 * (1/242478.317398)
 427 2013-07-16 09:45:13 <gribble> 8248.16017144
 428 2013-07-16 09:45:20 <phantomcircuit> 8248 cycles
 429 2013-07-16 09:45:20 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 431 2013-07-16 09:45:38 <petertodd> it's interesting in light of the people, including myself, talking about zerocoin though, because you'd wind up with a distributed RFQ system to do the bitcoin<->zerocoin trading
 432 2013-07-16 09:45:38 <phantomcircuit> that's ~30 main memory lookups
 433 2013-07-16 09:45:41 MC1984 has joined
 434 2013-07-16 09:45:55 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: stupid speed of light
 435 2013-07-16 09:46:17 MC1984_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 436 2013-07-16 09:46:29 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, heh
 437 2013-07-16 09:49:09 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: one of my co-workers has a story from working at some research lab that needed some very precise timing between two sequential events for an experiment, the administration was trying to move the experiment to a pair of buildings 100ft apart, and the plan was nearly settled on when someone calculated 100ft/c...
 438 2013-07-16 09:49:35 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, lol
 439 2013-07-16 09:50:12 <phantomcircuit> the ethernet cables in dc's near the nyse's facility which they rent out are all the same length
 440 2013-07-16 09:50:20 <phantomcircuit> no matter how close they are to the switches
 441 2013-07-16 09:50:35 <phantomcircuit> they should have auctioned off close 1U spots
 442 2013-07-16 09:50:36 <phantomcircuit> :)
 443 2013-07-16 09:50:51 <phantomcircuit> capitalism
 444 2013-07-16 09:50:52 <petertodd> ha, that's like the macro-scale version of the wiggles in the pcb traces on your motherboard!
 445 2013-07-16 09:52:30 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 446 2013-07-16 09:55:08 <phantomcircuit> hmm actually im just gonna throw in a filter here and create a directory with the asset pair id
 447 2013-07-16 09:55:20 <phantomcircuit> magic one daemon per asset pair
 448 2013-07-16 09:55:28 <phantomcircuit> except i might want to use this with lots of them
 449 2013-07-16 09:55:34 <phantomcircuit> so that would be annoying as all hell
 450 2013-07-16 09:55:39 <phantomcircuit> decisions decisions...
 451 2013-07-16 09:55:53 <petertodd> per asset pair? um... that's n^(n-1)~=n^2 directories...
 452 2013-07-16 09:56:10 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, there would of course be a limited list of asset pairs :)
 453 2013-07-16 09:56:13 <phantomcircuit> ie
 454 2013-07-16 09:56:25 <phantomcircuit> BTC:USD, BTC:EUR, possibly things other than "currency"
 455 2013-07-16 09:56:31 <petertodd> ah, so I can trade dogs for cats, but not dogs for onions unless I go through BTC first? :P
 456 2013-07-16 09:56:35 <phantomcircuit> it's easy enough to just make a list
 457 2013-07-16 09:56:48 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, right
 458 2013-07-16 09:56:49 <phantomcircuit> heh
 459 2013-07-16 09:57:24 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, in the normal world you list on your national exchange in your local currency
 460 2013-07-16 09:57:30 <phantomcircuit> on the internet... what does that even mean
 461 2013-07-16 09:57:34 <phantomcircuit> nothing
 462 2013-07-16 09:58:21 saintcajetan has joined
 463 2013-07-16 09:59:04 <petertodd> actually, so serious question: I'm convinced you can make a truely scalable decentralized crypto-coin by splitting up your coin into n sub-coins and automatically trading, now I *suspect* you can setup the coin-pairs such that it'll take something like log-n steps, but I haven't gotten around to figuring out what routing topology makes sense, and doing it by having nodes pick part of the UTXO space randomly is probably better
 464 2013-07-16 09:59:26 <petertodd> it's not as esoteric an issue as you might expect :)
 465 2013-07-16 09:59:34 KillYourTV has joined
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 467 2013-07-16 10:00:35 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, that's an interesting thought but i dont see how a relatively expensive trade is any better than the current largeish utxo
 468 2013-07-16 10:01:29 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: key advantage is it lets you mine even on a low bandwidth connection because you only need to keep up with part of the UTXO set - the P2P network would be similarly sharded
 469 2013-07-16 10:01:43 imton_ has joined
 470 2013-07-16 10:01:54 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, so you'd only need to keep track of the shards you cared about
 471 2013-07-16 10:02:11 <phantomcircuit> i kind of suspect that for most people that would eventually grow to be all of them though
 472 2013-07-16 10:02:28 <phantomcircuit> unless you automatically traded so stay on one of them which is what you were saying, derp
 473 2013-07-16 10:02:46 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yup, basically "I'll keep track and mine transactions touching the UTXO space starting with 01, 04, and A2"
 474 2013-07-16 10:03:17 saintcajetan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 475 2013-07-16 10:03:25 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, that's an interesting thought
 476 2013-07-16 10:03:46 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 479 2013-07-16 10:04:14 <phantomcircuit> the biggest problem i can see is you'd be sharding the mining power which would mean a much smaller % could overtake a shard
 480 2013-07-16 10:04:15 <petertodd> The issue is that if it's explicitly different sub-coins, rather than just "keep up with what you can", the profit margins for those with more of the UTXO set won't be higher than those maintaining less.
 481 2013-07-16 10:04:26 saintcajetan has joined
 482 2013-07-16 10:05:02 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Yeah, you'd need to have all miners timestamp all "sub-chains", and create consensus rules where those timestamps meant something - tricky.
 483 2013-07-16 10:05:58 iwilcox has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 484 2013-07-16 10:06:58 <petertodd> It'd likely wind up dependent on proving fraud after the fact... which is kinda funny, because it shows how the idea is just the evolution of fidelity bonded bank stuff.
 485 2013-07-16 10:07:48 <Scrat> cat bitcoin-dev.log | grep
 486 2013-07-16 10:07:53 xenland has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 487 2013-07-16 10:07:56 <Scrat> argh fuck my enter
 488 2013-07-16 10:08:11 <Scrat> cat bitcoin-dev.log | grep -i "fidelity bond" | wc -l
 489 2013-07-16 10:08:16 <Scrat> laptop gkeyboard runed my joke
 490 2013-07-16 10:08:22 <Scrat> ruined*
 491 2013-07-16 10:08:57 <petertodd> Scrat: lol! meanwhile "cat github.com | grep -i "fidelity bond" | wc -l"
 492 2013-07-16 10:09:01 <petertodd> Scrat: 0
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 500 2013-07-16 10:15:31 <gmaxwell> DHT still beats fidelity 2:1.
 501 2013-07-16 10:16:24 <petertodd> I'm going to have to try harder
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 508 2013-07-16 10:26:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: nah, cat bitcoin-dev | grep dht | grep -v webscale paints a different picture
 509 2013-07-16 10:28:51 <gmaxwell> you need to get the case right for DHT
 510 2013-07-16 10:29:29 <petertodd> I applied the "do what I mean" patch to my grep install
 511 2013-07-16 10:29:53 fluffypony has joined
 512 2013-07-16 10:29:56 <fluffypony> ola
 513 2013-07-16 10:30:10 <fluffypony> copy-paste of my question in #bitcoin:
 514 2013-07-16 10:30:12 <fluffypony> question: if I've mined a block, the reward goes straight into my wallet, but doesn't appear in the output of listreceivedbyaddress 0 true…so how do you dumpprivkey if you don't know the address?
 515 2013-07-16 10:30:12 _milone_ has joined
 516 2013-07-16 10:30:20 <fluffypony> my use case is that it hasn't matured yet, so I wanted to move the privkey to a different machine so I can bring this rig down for maintenance (and yet access the funds whilst the rig is down)
 517 2013-07-16 10:30:33 <fluffypony> so trying to avoid having to wait till it matures
 518 2013-07-16 10:32:57 <petertodd> you on p2pool?
 519 2013-07-16 10:33:17 __milone__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 520 2013-07-16 10:33:33 <fluffypony> petertodd: no, private pool, so this is the bitcoind for the farm/pool
 521 2013-07-16 10:33:38 andyh2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 522 2013-07-16 10:34:11 <petertodd> fluffypony: why don't you just look up the block itself and figure out which address the payout went too?
 523 2013-07-16 10:34:25 <petertodd> fluffypony: dumpprivkey that
 524 2013-07-16 10:34:26 <kinlo> hmmmz, is bitcoind still fast enough to mine on?
 525 2013-07-16 10:34:36 * fluffypony ponders
 526 2013-07-16 10:34:38 <fluffypony> that should work
 527 2013-07-16 10:34:46 <kinlo> I'd say even for private pools, use a pool daemon
 528 2013-07-16 10:35:52 <petertodd> kinlo: it still is if you don't have much hashing power, but that's mostly useful for testnet
 529 2013-07-16 10:36:04 <kinlo> testnet is not bitcoin mining
 530 2013-07-16 10:36:06 <petertodd> IE, one or two BFL asics
 531 2013-07-16 10:36:25 <kinlo> I have plenty of testnet blocks by just using the bitcoin internal miner
 532 2013-07-16 10:36:37 <kinlo> and 1-2 bfl asics isn't enough nowadays to do solomining
 533 2013-07-16 10:36:39 <petertodd> kinlo: it's really handy to be able to generate a testnet block in a few seconds by throwing a bunch of hashing power at it
 534 2013-07-16 10:36:53 <petertodd> kinlo: depends on how long you are willing to wait... :)
 535 2013-07-16 10:37:03 <kinlo> petertodd: true, but again, testnet is testnet :)
 536 2013-07-16 10:37:08 saintcajetan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 537 2013-07-16 10:37:21 <kinlo> I'm talking about the real bitcoin network
 538 2013-07-16 10:37:32 saintcajetan has joined
 539 2013-07-16 10:38:31 <petertodd> kinlo: same code - I'm talking about technical limitations
 540 2013-07-16 10:39:17 <kinlo> petertodd: I know bitcoind didn't scale to 100 GH when using pushpool... and 100GH is not enough to solomine
 541 2013-07-16 10:40:23 <fluffypony> petertodd: that worked a charm, thanks :)
 542 2013-07-16 10:41:18 CheckDavid has joined
 543 2013-07-16 10:41:36 <petertodd> kinlo: pff, I'm technically correct, the best type of correct
 544 2013-07-16 10:41:53 <kinlo> petertodd: from time to time, you're a PITA :)
 545 2013-07-16 10:42:03 fluffypony has left ("Cheers")
 546 2013-07-16 10:42:25 <petertodd> kinlo: I'll read that as from time t_0=0s to time t_1=infinity...
 547 2013-07-16 10:42:36 <kinlo> :p
 548 2013-07-16 10:46:33 swulf--2 has joined
 549 2013-07-16 10:47:06 <bitnumus> can someone explain this
 550 2013-07-16 10:47:07 <bitnumus> Estimated Confirmation Time 	7 hours (queue position 644)
 551 2013-07-16 10:47:11 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 552 2013-07-16 10:47:14 <bitnumus> and how the queue position can go up, thanks
 553 2013-07-16 10:47:38 <petertodd> bitnumus: queue position can go up if someone makes a transaction with a higher fee than you paid
 554 2013-07-16 10:47:47 <petertodd> it's not a first-in-first-out thing
 555 2013-07-16 10:47:51 <bitnumus> which if you paid 0, is almost everyone
 556 2013-07-16 10:47:53 <petertodd> it's an auction kinda
 557 2013-07-16 10:47:56 <bitnumus> so you could be waiting forever
 558 2013-07-16 10:47:58 <petertodd> yes
 559 2013-07-16 10:48:00 <bitnumus> amazing idea..
 560 2013-07-16 10:48:14 <bitnumus> something needs to be done about accidental 0 fee TXs
 561 2013-07-16 10:48:24 <petertodd> Right now you can't change the fee you paid on your transaction after the fact; in the future you'll be able too.
 562 2013-07-16 10:48:33 <petertodd> (can't easilly anyway)
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 698 2013-07-16 14:29:01 <enigmuriatic> approximately how many transactions have there been? the number i have in my blockparser output it twice what bitcoinexplorer.com suggests there are with its average block size value.
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 700 2013-07-16 14:29:07 <enigmuriatic> *is
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 703 2013-07-16 14:32:19 <sipa> enigmuriatic: tx=20748431
 704 2013-07-16 14:32:31 <sipa> at block 246867
 705 2013-07-16 14:32:47 <swulf--> sipa: got a quick moment?
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 708 2013-07-16 14:33:41 <swulf--> curious if you could look at tx c65a0df77a5548ae2f7901c2d63104b311aed31d456f648d2a2a6992a37699c4.. it's weird to me. how is it possible to have 0btc outputs?  also, those 2 middle outputs, what format is the address in?
 709 2013-07-16 14:33:54 <sipa> 0 BTC outputs are just valid
 710 2013-07-16 14:34:01 <sipa> they are non-standard, but valid
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 712 2013-07-16 14:34:42 <swulf--> well, hmm.  blockchain.info certainly won't propagate a 0btc output txn
 713 2013-07-16 14:34:53 <sipa> why not?
 714 2013-07-16 14:34:58 * swulf-- shrugs
 715 2013-07-16 14:35:17 <swulf--> can I give you a tx i generated to look at?
 716 2013-07-16 14:35:29 <sipa> and those two middle outputs have a pay-to-pubkey script, though the pubkey itself is not valid
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 718 2013-07-16 14:35:51 <swulf--> another weird thing on blockchain, is that it does decypher the pubkey
 719 2013-07-16 14:36:01 <swulf--> and i'm not sure how they do it
 720 2013-07-16 14:36:04 <swulf--> http://blockchain.info/tx/9f17e914db4db62844bafabd84a75f1cc9d8895f2ca2eaafc4ec9c463eb2cbb6
 721 2013-07-16 14:36:08 <swulf--> arg not that one
 722 2013-07-16 14:36:13 <swulf--> https://blockchain.info/tx/c65a0df77a5548ae2f7901c2d63104b311aed31d456f648d2a2a6992a37699c4
 723 2013-07-16 14:36:32 <sipa> how do you mean "decipher" ?
 724 2013-07-16 14:36:53 <swulf--> they "show" a bitcoin address, despite the pubkey not being version 0x02, 3 or 4
 725 2013-07-16 14:37:00 <swulf--> are the addresses legit?
 726 2013-07-16 14:37:18 <sipa> an pay-to-pubkeyhash address is just the hash of a pubkey
 727 2013-07-16 14:37:24 <sipa> there is a pubkey there
 728 2013-07-16 14:37:29 <sipa> at least, some hashable data
 729 2013-07-16 14:37:37 <sipa> it's not a valid pubkey though, but they don't detect that
 730 2013-07-16 14:38:01 <swulf--> so theoretically someone could spend this output (if it had nonzero value) ?
 731 2013-07-16 14:38:20 <sipa> the zero value is irrelevant
 732 2013-07-16 14:38:24 <sipa> you can still spend it
 733 2013-07-16 14:38:29 <swulf--> good point
 734 2013-07-16 14:38:34 <sipa> and no, not this one, since there is no valid public key
 735 2013-07-16 14:38:39 <sipa> so any signature check would fail
 736 2013-07-16 14:38:49 <sipa> but that's the only point where that can be detected
 737 2013-07-16 14:39:03 <swulf--> blockchain shows a public key, and I can send coins to it, so the (hash of) the public key is valid
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 740 2013-07-16 14:39:33 <sipa> of course it is?
 741 2013-07-16 14:39:36 <sipa> it's just a hash
 742 2013-07-16 14:39:43 <sipa> so you can send to that hash
 743 2013-07-16 14:39:52 <swulf--> ok
 744 2013-07-16 14:39:55 * swulf-- gets it
 745 2013-07-16 14:40:19 <swulf--> checksig requires a public key, but it's not a public key, but blockchain.info hashes it and turns it into a btc address anyway.
 746 2013-07-16 14:41:20 <swulf--> sipa: seriously - your btc address and a tip is coming your way ;) you've helped me more times than i can count
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 748 2013-07-16 14:44:32 <swulf--> sipa: I've made a txn that gets rejected with sendrawtransaction but parses fine w/ decoderawtransaction. got a quick moment to take a look?
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 752 2013-07-16 14:47:32 <CheckDavid> When you are mining you are processing transactions right?
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 755 2013-07-16 14:49:18 <swulf--> Check: you don't have to process any transactions to mine, if you don't want to
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 758 2013-07-16 14:51:08 <swulf--> it seems weird to make a distinction between non-standard transactions and invalid transactions if both are rejected into the txmempool
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 762 2013-07-16 14:53:45 <CheckDavid> So, how are the transactions processed?
 763 2013-07-16 14:54:00 <CheckDavid> I thought they needed the functions processed by miners.
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 767 2013-07-16 15:00:01 <swulf--> Miners can (and do) process them, but they aren't obligated to
 768 2013-07-16 15:01:43 <CheckDavid> So what if miners decide not to?
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 771 2013-07-16 15:08:50 <sserrano44> quick question is 16 digits (8 decimal places) is good to represent a bitcoin amount
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 775 2013-07-16 15:12:29 <swulf--> CheckDavid: then they're abandoning potential transaction fees
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 777 2013-07-16 15:17:20 <CheckDavid> I see.
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 784 2013-07-16 15:24:54 <bitanarchy> primecoind listtransactions gives an empty list... am i missing a setting?
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 791 2013-07-16 15:33:00 <amiller> the version corrseponding to this nogleg guy is "grokked1.01b" and "grokked1.01"
 792 2013-07-16 15:33:16 <amiller> i can't find any mention online of a "grokked" client but maybet hat's just the name for the tx spammer python script
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 798 2013-07-16 15:46:17 <BlueMatt> bitanarchy: if you dont have a prime number of transactions it doesnt return anything
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 802 2013-07-16 15:53:56 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lol
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 850 2013-07-16 16:49:59 <helo> sserrano44: using an integer that can store values up to 2.1e15, and keeping all bitcoin balances in satoshi is the preferred approach, i think
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 854 2013-07-16 16:52:28 <phantomcircuit> helo, depends on what it's for
 855 2013-07-16 16:52:48 <phantomcircuit> if it's for a financial application then it's better to use your databases native MONEY type
 856 2013-07-16 16:53:04 <phantomcircuit> usually there's such a type which will refuse to round
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 858 2013-07-16 16:55:27 <helo> interesting
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 883 2013-07-16 17:11:49 <amiller> i figured out what the nogleg nodes were
 884 2013-07-16 17:11:51 <amiller> the're p2pool nodes i think
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 886 2013-07-16 17:11:58 <amiller> does p2pool relay faster for some reason?
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 892 2013-07-16 17:13:26 <gmaxwell> amiller: p2pool doesn't speak the bitcoin p2p protocol except locally. A p2pool's bitcoin p2p is just the reference client.
 893 2013-07-16 17:13:33 <amiller> hrm.
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 895 2013-07-16 17:16:09 <gmaxwell> Is there something that indicates that I was wrong about my assumption that it was just running a dumb fast block relayer?
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 897 2013-07-16 17:17:19 <amiller> not blocks, txes
 898 2013-07-16 17:17:38 <amiller> i haven't sent it random invalid txes yet, but it doesn't just send "TX" without waiting for "INV" like i thought
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 900 2013-07-16 17:18:13 <amiller> er, without waiting for GETDATA.... (sending TX before GETDATA is a good way to the first to relay something and afaict causes no misbehavior demerits)
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 903 2013-07-16 17:19:50 <sipa> when you mine a block directly in bitcoind, it is immediately broadcast as 'block', without preceeding 'inv'
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 907 2013-07-16 17:23:55 <amiller> i'm only looking at tx relay behavior for now
 908 2013-07-16 17:24:05 <amiller> we checked and it doesn't relay doublespends so it's definitely doing validation not just spam rleay
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 911 2013-07-16 17:24:42 <sipa> sure
 912 2013-07-16 17:24:48 <sipa> nothing is relayed without validation
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 914 2013-07-16 17:26:16 <amiller> not in a satoshi client, but this is a "Grokked" client
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 920 2013-07-16 17:30:21 <gmaxwell> amiller: what kind of doublespend did it refuse to relay?
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 923 2013-07-16 17:32:30 <amiller> gmaxwell, the simplest kind, {input A, output B}, {input A, output B'} ??
 924 2013-07-16 17:32:50 <sipa> the first one was accepted into the mempool
 925 2013-07-16 17:33:05 <sipa> so the second one would fail validation, as it referred to inputs that were already spent
 926 2013-07-16 17:33:36 <amiller> sipa, what i'm tryign to figure out is why the node at the top here relays so many txs so fast http://blockchain.info/hub-nodes
 927 2013-07-16 17:33:47 <sipa> ah
 928 2013-07-16 17:33:49 <gmaxwell> amiller: okay, but that doesn't preclude it doing actually expensive validations.
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 977 2013-07-16 18:13:55 <c4pt> anyone know how to adjust the font size in bitcoin-qt ?
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1046 2013-07-16 20:28:38 <avyd> hello
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1049 2013-07-16 20:31:13 <avyd> I'm on a bitcoin workshop and we would like to know if there is someone who can answer us a question about the future of bitcoin
1050 2013-07-16 20:31:51 <MC1984> just ask
1051 2013-07-16 20:31:51 <nsh> one way to find out would be to ask
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1053 2013-07-16 20:32:32 <avyd> so you can, it's great
1054 2013-07-16 20:32:50 <sipa> depends on the question
1055 2013-07-16 20:33:00 <sipa> whivch is hard to know without you asking :)
1056 2013-07-16 20:33:31 <avyd> when are you planning to take action about the increasing size of the block chain?
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1058 2013-07-16 20:34:09 <nsh> (your question is misphrased. the blockchain is always increasing in size)
1059 2013-07-16 20:34:21 <MC1984> pruning
1060 2013-07-16 20:34:30 <MC1984> not until some other important stuff is worked out afaik
1061 2013-07-16 20:34:42 <MC1984> pruning sux anyway
1062 2013-07-16 20:34:52 andyh2 has quit (Client Quit)
1063 2013-07-16 20:35:04 <nsh> (oh, actually my reading comprehension is just awful)
1064 2013-07-16 20:35:06 <nsh> (sorry)
1065 2013-07-16 20:35:09 <avyd> we have already talked about it in our workshop and it sounds complicated
1066 2013-07-16 20:35:22 <avyd> you can't just prune
1067 2013-07-16 20:35:37 <avyd> or if you can how?
1068 2013-07-16 20:35:55 <MC1984> just discard spent outputs in the chain
1069 2013-07-16 20:36:31 <MC1984> the real answer is i dont see chainsize as a problem
1070 2013-07-16 20:36:39 <MC1984> the UTXO and IDB is the problems
1071 2013-07-16 20:37:04 <MC1984> btw im not a dev im just an irc bum
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1074 2013-07-16 20:38:11 <sipa> avyd: the blockchain will always grow
1075 2013-07-16 20:38:27 <sipa> but the question is what do you need the (full) block chain for
1076 2013-07-16 20:38:28 <avyd> the chain size is not yet a problem but will be soon - the chain size is increasing faster then the storage and it's storage market price
1077 2013-07-16 20:38:47 <sipa> in particular, there is no need for every to store the full chaim
1078 2013-07-16 20:38:53 <sipa> *everyone
1079 2013-07-16 20:38:59 <MC1984> no its not
1080 2013-07-16 20:39:12 <avyd> why?
1081 2013-07-16 20:39:36 <sipa> the actual "state" of the bitcoin database is the set of unspent transaction outputs
1082 2013-07-16 20:39:42 <MC1984> its 144mb/day max right now
1083 2013-07-16 20:39:42 <avyd> the block chain doubles every 6 months
1084 2013-07-16 20:39:48 <avyd> doesnt it?
1085 2013-07-16 20:39:55 <MC1984> lol no its linear
1086 2013-07-16 20:40:08 <sipa> you can see blocks as patches to the set of unspent outpits
1087 2013-07-16 20:40:11 <sipa> outputs
1088 2013-07-16 20:40:13 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it has a linear maximum, of 52gb/yr.
1089 2013-07-16 20:40:29 <sipa> you only need to see them once, to build your own trusted database of unspent outputs
1090 2013-07-16 20:40:30 <MC1984> ok, its linear at the block cap
1091 2013-07-16 20:40:39 <sipa> after that, you do not need the blocks themself anymore
1092 2013-07-16 20:40:41 <avyd> so every year we will have 52 gb more size in the chains?
1093 2013-07-16 20:40:43 <MC1984> but i think were past the omg what is this new satosho dice thing now
1094 2013-07-16 20:41:32 <MC1984> assuming stiff block competition, yes 52gb
1095 2013-07-16 20:41:51 <sipa> avyd: again, yes the block chai  will grow
1096 2013-07-16 20:42:00 <sipa> avyd: but not everyone needs to store it
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1099 2013-07-16 20:42:41 <gmaxwell> avyd: under the current network rules a boring cheap 1TB disk would store 20 years of it; and as sipa points out, its not needed that all nodes store all of it.
1100 2013-07-16 20:42:51 <MC1984> but note storing independant copies of the chain is important
1101 2013-07-16 20:43:24 <gmaxwell> sure, saying that not _Everyone_ needs to store it doesn't mean that there don't need to be many copies of it.
1102 2013-07-16 20:43:47 <MC1984> the more the merrier
1103 2013-07-16 20:44:05 <MC1984> is as many different polities as possible
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1106 2013-07-16 20:46:56 <MC1984> what would be better is if BQT gets an spv transition mode and everyone forgets about the chainsize "problem"
1107 2013-07-16 20:47:13 <MC1984> it seems to me like one of those things where humans are bad at assesing threats
1108 2013-07-16 20:47:56 <avyd> so how is that 52GB calculated?
1109 2013-07-16 20:48:29 <gmaxwell> avyd: a million bytes times 144*365.25
1110 2013-07-16 20:48:34 <MC1984> 1MB blocks roughly every 10 minutes
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1112 2013-07-16 20:49:43 <sipa> MC1984: you had me thinking for a minute what 'BQT' stood for...
1113 2013-07-16 20:49:57 <avyd> what if there are more transactions that do net fit a 1MB size?
1114 2013-07-16 20:50:01 <MC1984> its just another one of my wackronyms
1115 2013-07-16 20:50:05 <avyd> and there are much more transactions
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1117 2013-07-16 20:50:23 <helo> avyd: fee competition
1118 2013-07-16 20:50:28 <helo> whoever pays the highest fees will get their transactions mined
1119 2013-07-16 20:50:47 <helo> avyd: where this discussion is headed next is that bitcoin is limited to about seven transactions per second
1120 2013-07-16 20:50:57 <MC1984> avyd have you read the bitcoin whitepaper?
1121 2013-07-16 20:51:04 <sipa> until the blovk size limit is increased
1122 2013-07-16 20:51:08 <sipa> block size
1123 2013-07-16 20:51:54 <helo> avyd: so 1MB worth of transactions that pay the miner the most in fees get mined, and the rest wait
1124 2013-07-16 20:54:00 <avyd> about the seven transactions limit - is it per user or per user?
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1127 2013-07-16 20:54:38 <gmaxwell> Are those my own two options?
1128 2013-07-16 20:54:42 <gmaxwell> er only
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1130 2013-07-16 20:55:07 <phantomcircuit> avyd, uh.. no?
1131 2013-07-16 20:55:14 <avyd> MC1984: I haven't read the whitepaper yet
1132 2013-07-16 20:55:18 <helo> avyd: the 1MB limit for every ten minutes on average, with each transaction being 250 bytes leads to seven per second as a very rough estimate.
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1136 2013-07-16 20:56:34 <gmaxwell> avyd: you really should read the whitepaper before asking more questions. It's far from answering every question... but it's short and provides a good level set.
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1139 2013-07-16 20:57:45 <avyd> thank you, we didn't know about the wp. Where can we find it?
1140 2013-07-16 20:58:22 <warren> I think Bing can find things.  I haven't tried it myself.
1141 2013-07-16 20:58:25 <gmaxwell> http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
1142 2013-07-16 20:59:18 <avyd> Thank you guys
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1265 2013-07-16 23:45:29 <boycey> Hey! Anybody have a problem compiling `multibit` ?  Apparently it depends on an old version of bitcoinj, which uses `org.bouncycastle `  …… 
1266 2013-07-16 23:45:58 <Luke-Jr> do we have a C++ std::string atoi equivalent?
1267 2013-07-16 23:47:18 <sipa> http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/general/13135/ ?
1268 2013-07-16 23:49:20 <Luke-Jr> found inlines in util.h <.<
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1272 2013-07-16 23:52:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ?
1273 2013-07-16 23:52:56 <sipa> ah, we have an atoi64...
1274 2013-07-16 23:53:01 <sipa> never knew that :D
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