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  10 2013-07-17 00:04:17 <Luke-Jr> where's the general shutdown code these days?
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  14 2013-07-17 00:13:47 * Luke-Jr stabs GitHub for closing his pullreq on him
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  41 2013-07-17 01:02:07 <DiabloD3> [08:35:38] --> Twdsbiggestfan (~Twdsbigge@q-338-71-133-186.hsd0.ga.comcast.net) has joined #programming
  42 2013-07-17 01:02:07 <DiabloD3> [08:36:09] <Twdsbiggestfan> Hi I own a HTML website, is there a way to ban a IP using only Html?
  43 2013-07-17 01:02:07 <DiabloD3> [08:37:00] <Twdsbiggestfan> could anyone please help
  44 2013-07-17 01:02:07 <DiabloD3> [08:37:36] <-- Twdsbiggestfan has quit (Client Quit)
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  72 2013-07-17 01:53:29 <PRab> Can an attacker send a merchant a transaction with many small TxOuts to force the merchant to waste more money on the fee to spend the received bitcoin?
  73 2013-07-17 01:55:37 <PRab> E.G. Eve owes Alice 1BTC, but sends it as 1000 outputs of .001BTC. Then when Alice wants to spend the money a big fee is required.
  74 2013-07-17 01:55:59 <PRab> I know Eve would have to add a large fee, but this doesn't help Alice at all.
  75 2013-07-17 01:59:29 <Luke-Jr> PRab: if I were the merchant, I would refuse to acknowledge it as payment
  76 2013-07-17 02:00:00 <PRab> Luke-Jr: Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
  77 2013-07-17 02:00:07 <gmaxwell> PRab: yes/no. Yes someone can send you a lot of dust that costs more for you to redeem, but with the newer anti-dust rules its hard for them to send more to redeem than its worth.
  78 2013-07-17 02:00:26 <gmaxwell> PRab: not at all— but it's a good reason to simply state up front something about that case.
  79 2013-07-17 02:00:49 <Luke-Jr> PRab: I would be glad to be an expert witness to testify that Bitcoin addresses are intended to be single-use, and that multiple sends to them should not be something someone should expect to be honoured
  80 2013-07-17 02:01:02 <PRab> To me its the equivalent to somebody paying a large bill in all pennies.
  81 2013-07-17 02:01:11 <gmaxwell> PRab: which is frequently rejected.
  82 2013-07-17 02:02:06 xenland has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
  83 2013-07-17 02:02:17 <PRab> gmaxwell: True.
  84 2013-07-17 02:02:43 <PRab> But, you didn't really reject it.
  85 2013-07-17 02:02:53 <PRab> There is no way to return the money without paying the fee.
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  87 2013-07-17 02:03:40 <gmaxwell> You didn't accept it either.  You can't just lob a sack of pennies over my counter and then insist that you paid me.
  88 2013-07-17 02:03:57 <gmaxwell> (in fact, I'm pretty sure people have been convicted of vandalism for doing exactly that in the US)
  89 2013-07-17 02:04:20 <PRab> I guess you could return it by giving them the private key to that address.
  90 2013-07-17 02:04:34 <gmaxwell> Good point too!.
  91 2013-07-17 02:04:46 <gmaxwell> Besides, de minimis non curat lex; especially if you're being an obvious jerk.
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  94 2013-07-17 02:06:18 <gmaxwell> returning the private keys is a cute solution though.  But I do think it would be good to have a up front policy too.  I know that some wallet services in the past have ignored tiny inputs, but I'm not sure if any documented it in their published policies.
  95 2013-07-17 02:06:40 <PRab> I just thought about it because I was looking at the rulebook for my old fraternity and we had an explicit "no pennies" rule and wondered how that translates to bitcoin.
  96 2013-07-17 02:06:43 <gmaxwell> pratically everything using ltc does because the reference litecoin software ignores tiny inputs by default.
  97 2013-07-17 02:07:20 <PRab> My initial reaction was to adjust the transaction fee rules to weigh outputs significantly more than inputs.
  98 2013-07-17 02:07:33 <gmaxwell> PRab: from time to time it's actually been a problem for some parties, not even due to an attacker, but due to dull users and clickfraud faucets that pay really tiny amounts.
  99 2013-07-17 02:07:45 Subo1978_ has joined
 100 2013-07-17 02:08:20 <PRab> E.G. It cost 10X more to include a byte of output than a byte of input. (Signatures might be 3X)
 101 2013-07-17 02:08:57 <gmaxwell> PRab: any transaction with an output under 0.01 BTC in value must be a non-free transaction to begin with. Once a transaction is non-free I don't know how much sense it makes having a rule that miners would be _irrational_ (as in, not profit maximizing) to follow.
 102 2013-07-17 02:09:05 yubrew has joined
 103 2013-07-17 02:09:20 <PRab> I've seen people complaining on the forum that its hard to spend the bitcoin after playing satoshi dice.
 104 2013-07-17 02:10:06 <gmaxwell> The badness of this has been limited by the minimum output size relay rules, since that make people produce outputs that should still yield more btc value than they cost in fees.
 105 2013-07-17 02:10:30 <gmaxwell> But thats a recent change.
 106 2013-07-17 02:10:40 <PRab> gmaxwell: 8.2, right?
 107 2013-07-17 02:10:53 <gmaxwell> 0.8.2, yes.
 108 2013-07-17 02:11:00 <PRab> oops,
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 110 2013-07-17 02:12:04 <gmaxwell> For free txn it would indeed make sense to have the priority calculation favor transactions that have less outputs absolutely and also ones that have more inputs relative to outputs. But it's not clear how much longer free txn will be very relevant.
 111 2013-07-17 02:12:09 <PRab> I would love it if there was a miner rational, UTXO shrinking rule fee rule.
 112 2013-07-17 02:13:15 <gmaxwell> PRab: That would require a new block validity rule, e.g. setting a maximum UTXO size increase per block.
 113 2013-07-17 02:13:50 <gmaxwell> once that existed it would be rational for miners to favor txn that had a lower (or negative) utxo impact.
 114 2013-07-17 02:14:21 <PRab> gmaxwell: Yes, but I'm guessing that would require at least a soft fork.
 115 2013-07-17 02:14:25 <gmaxwell> such a rule could be a soft forking one. But it might be politically complicated to deploy.
 116 2013-07-17 02:14:32 <gmaxwell> PRab: Yup.
 117 2013-07-17 02:15:09 <PRab> I would vote/mine for it, but I only have one GPU at my disposal
 118 2013-07-17 02:15:35 <gmaxwell> The space of all such rules isn't very unique either, so even if people agree in general its easy to disagree about the details.
 119 2013-07-17 02:15:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: jdillon's voting proposal...
 120 2013-07-17 02:16:38 <PRab> gmaxwell: Yeah, I have seen a lot of bikeshedding
 121 2013-07-17 02:18:12 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 122 2013-07-17 02:18:30 <gmaxwell> And not just empty bikeshedding. E.g. Say you think at change of +500k should be the maximum. OKAY.   But if you just sum the changes and agree with the maximum you can get some perverse motivations.
 123 2013-07-17 02:18:46 <petertodd> PRab: this is worse because it's about what Bitcoin can be to different people
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 125 2013-07-17 02:19:04 <gmaxwell> For example: say there are a lot of negative utxo change transactions. So many, in fact, that if you included all of them your UTXO change would be negative overall.
 126 2013-07-17 02:19:31 rdponticelli has joined
 127 2013-07-17 02:20:04 <gmaxwell> You would then find it in your interest to add your own junk outputs.. just to create UTXO bloat and get the change up to the 500k limit.
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 129 2013-07-17 02:20:29 <gmaxwell> Then on the next block you try to mine, you would (without announcing them) pad up the space with transactions cleaning it back up again.
 130 2013-07-17 02:20:54 <PRab> Grumble... I see your point.
 131 2013-07-17 02:21:00 <PRab> Why can't anything be easy.
 132 2013-07-17 02:21:08 Goonie_ has joined
 133 2013-07-17 02:21:37 <gmaxwell> hah. Well, I can answer that one, just don't allow them to be negative.  That risk only exists when things can cancel.
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 135 2013-07-17 02:22:45 <gmaxwell> But, you wouldn't want to treat a -1000 utxo and a 0 change utxo the same. So really it should be utxo_delta = max(0,UTXO_delta + offset)  .. and now we get to debate the offset.
 136 2013-07-17 02:23:59 <PRab> That looks just like a different way of represent my TxIn vs TxOut multiplier.
 137 2013-07-17 02:24:24 <PRab> Leads to the same question (whats the multiplier vs whats the offset)
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 139 2013-07-17 02:24:27 <petertodd> PRab: no, it's a way of making your multiplier happen
 140 2013-07-17 02:24:54 <gmaxwell> PRab: right, you could also do this with weighing when calculating the 'size' though thats a hardforking change. The delta with limit could be a soft forking change but would be analogous to your multiplier.
 141 2013-07-17 02:25:02 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 142 2013-07-17 02:25:28 <gmaxwell> PRab: you might also like my transaction cost prepayment idea
 143 2013-07-17 02:25:43 <gmaxwell> PRab: search for 'prepayment' https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
 144 2013-07-17 02:25:46 * Luke-Jr finally gets around to fixing bitcoind's GBT longpolling pullreq
 145 2013-07-17 02:25:47 <PRab> gmaxwell: Where/what was that?
 146 2013-07-17 02:26:10 <PRab> gmaxwell: ah, your too quick.
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 149 2013-07-17 02:28:18 <gmaxwell> PRab: the idea is that the 'size' of a transaction for the purpose of imposing the block limit is increased by the amount that its outputs will take to redeem.  And when the outputs are redeemed, the size is decreased by the 'prepaid' amount.
 150 2013-07-17 02:28:41 lordbunson has joined
 151 2013-07-17 02:29:29 <gmaxwell> You can look at it like every output must reserve space in the chain to make room for their consumer, and their consumer uses the reserved space. Though it's tricky to avoid the weird incentives, and I am not confident that I really did so there.
 152 2013-07-17 02:30:14 <PRab> I don't quite follow the prepayment proposal (details, I get the concept), but it would probably make some more sense if I spent some time in the code.
 153 2013-07-17 02:31:28 <PRab> Oh well, thanks for taking the time to answer my "what ifs".
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 156 2013-07-17 02:32:03 <PRab> I'm hoping to dive into the code at some point, but who knows when that will be.
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 202 2013-07-17 04:18:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is there an update for your hal branch somewhere?
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 206 2013-07-17 04:27:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: why would you want that?
 207 2013-07-17 04:27:49 <gmaxwell> the sipa-ecc code is tons faster.
 208 2013-07-17 04:27:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's what I mean by update ;)
 209 2013-07-17 04:28:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: is it his secp256k1 branch? does it work reasonably?
 210 2013-07-17 04:28:55 <warren> Luke-Jr: I've been using it in production for weeks
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 232 2013-07-17 05:04:10 <Krellan> makefile.unix question: where's the best place to put -fPIC in there?  Getting compilation errors without it.
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 237 2013-07-17 05:07:21 <jedunnigan> ;;last
 238 2013-07-17 05:07:21 <gribble> [01:04:06] <Krellan> makefile.unix question: where's the best place to put -fPIC in there?  Getting compilation errors without it.
 239 2013-07-17 05:09:08 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: nowhere. you should not be building bitcoind with -fPIC
 240 2013-07-17 05:09:34 <Luke-Jr> if you're getting compilation errors, it's related to something else
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 242 2013-07-17 05:11:46 <Krellan> ah OK thanks - is it bad to do that?
 243 2013-07-17 05:11:57 <Krellan> I tried to enable PIE=1
 244 2013-07-17 05:13:36 <Krellan> It successfully built with -fPIC, and it didn't build without it.
 245 2013-07-17 05:13:49 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: only libraries should use -fPIC
 246 2013-07-17 05:13:57 <Krellan> The error: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.6.3/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: obj/alert.o: relocation R_X86_64_32 against `.rodata' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
 247 2013-07-17 05:14:15 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: ok, so why does ld think you're trying to make a shared object?
 248 2013-07-17 05:14:48 paracyst has quit ()
 249 2013-07-17 05:15:34 <Krellan> Not sure about that.  It only did it when trying to do the final bitcoind link.
 250 2013-07-17 05:16:23 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hum, we're not compiling bitcoin with -fPIC ?!
 251 2013-07-17 05:16:33 <gmaxwell> relro doesn't work without it.
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 253 2013-07-17 05:17:09 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't? last I checked, only libraries were supposed to be -fPIC
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 255 2013-07-17 05:18:28 <Krellan> as a general rule of thumb I have *always* used -fPIC when doing anything with libraries on x86_64
 256 2013-07-17 05:18:39 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: but bitcoind is not a library!
 257 2013-07-17 05:19:07 <Krellan> True.  I wonder if it could also be caused by a library that it's trying to pull in during compilation, though.  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/howtos/?part=1&chap=3
 258 2013-07-17 05:19:41 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: can you pastebin the full build log?
 259 2013-07-17 05:20:35 <Krellan> OK will do
 260 2013-07-17 05:21:00 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: derp mode here, -PIE accomplishes on executibles what -fPIC does on DSOs.
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 262 2013-07-17 05:22:07 <Krellan> I also had to modify the makefile.unix slightly, to add directory: -I/usr/include/db4.8
 263 2013-07-17 05:22:10 <gmaxwell> oh, hm. it doesn't.
 264 2013-07-17 05:22:23 <gmaxwell> Krellan: you don't have to modify the makefile for that, it takes that as an argument.
 265 2013-07-17 05:22:29 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: you're supposed to pass BDB_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/include/db4.8 to make for that
 266 2013-07-17 05:22:43 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: you might look at the ebuild..
 267 2013-07-17 05:22:58 <gmaxwell> e.g. I compile Bitcoin as DB_LIB_PATH='/usr/lib64/libdb4/' BDB_INCLUDE_PATH='/usr/include/libdb4' BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX='-mt' make -j4 -f makefile.unix bitcoind USE_UPNP=
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 269 2013-07-17 05:24:27 * Luke-Jr puts all the params after 'make' so he can find it in history easier <.<
 270 2013-07-17 05:24:28 <Krellan> OK http://pastebin.com/9JLcWBzH
 271 2013-07-17 05:24:39 <Luke-Jr> actually, I just threw them all in a GNUmakefile XD
 272 2013-07-17 05:25:03 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: that's missing the end
 273 2013-07-17 05:25:29 <Krellan> sigh, stupid terminal limits the maximum length of a cut
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 275 2013-07-17 05:26:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: ugh. So PIE=1 is broken, and we're not PIE by default but we should be.
 276 2013-07-17 05:27:04 <Krellan> actually that's all of it.  Line 109 is the final command that links, and outputs bitcoind.
 277 2013-07-17 05:28:10 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: I don't see any errors then
 278 2013-07-17 05:28:54 <Krellan> That's just it: adding -fPIC made it compile without errors.  It shouldn't have been necessary to add, though, and it's bad form to use it with executables (should only be shared libraries, as you said).
 279 2013-07-17 05:29:20 <Krellan> scanelf indicates TYPE ET_DYN and STK/REL/PTL RW- R-- RW- so that passes sanity check
 280 2013-07-17 05:29:47 <gmaxwell> Krellan: where did you have to add it? I just successfully did a git build without adding anything
 281 2013-07-17 05:29:58 <gmaxwell> $ ./checksec.sh --file ./bitcoind
 282 2013-07-17 05:29:58 <gmaxwell> RELRO           STACK CANARY      NX            PIE             RPATH      RUNPATH      FILE
 283 2013-07-17 05:30:01 <gmaxwell> Full RELRO      Canary found      NX enabled    PIE enabled     No RPATH   No RUNPATH   ./bitcoind
 284 2013-07-17 05:30:09 __milone__ has joined
 285 2013-07-17 05:30:17 <gmaxwell> BDB_LIB_PATH='/usr/lib64/libdb4/' BDB_INCLUDE_PATH='/usr/include/libdb4' BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX='-mt' make -j4 -f makefile.unix bitcoind USE_UPNP= PIE=1
 286 2013-07-17 05:30:51 <Krellan> Nice
 287 2013-07-17 05:31:29 <gmaxwell> will be nice when gitian is gcc 4.8 and can use -fstack-protector-strong
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 290 2013-07-17 05:32:19 <gmaxwell> (strong is basically all of the protection of all, but basically the same performance as fstack-protector)
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 293 2013-07-17 05:33:42 <Krellan> I didn't know about checksec.sh script - nice
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 297 2013-07-17 05:34:50 <Krellan> I cheesily added -fPIC to DEBUGFLAGS because that gets pasted everywhere already, like CFLAGS would be
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 300 2013-07-17 05:35:47 <gmaxwell> Krellan: RTFM. :P
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 303 2013-07-17 05:36:34 <gmaxwell> Krellan: ../doc/build-unix.md see the bottom.
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 305 2013-07-17 05:38:10 <Krellan> will do, guess I missed that part
 306 2013-07-17 05:38:18 <Krellan> the built bitcoind is up and running
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 310 2013-07-17 05:43:36 <Krellan> ah, the Gentoo sample is in the middle, missed that part about BDB_INCLUDE_PATH
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 314 2013-07-17 05:47:30 <Krellan> thanks for your advice
 315 2013-07-17 05:47:58 <Krellan> is it possible to run bitcoin-qt as merely a thin user interface, that would point at another bitcoind running elsewhere?
 316 2013-07-17 05:48:16 <gjs278> Krellan use the ebuild
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 321 2013-07-17 05:59:07 <Luke-Jr> [05:47:55] <Krellan> is it possible to run bitcoin-qt as merely a thin user interface, that would point at another bitcoind running elsewhere? <-- no
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 326 2013-07-17 06:04:12 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: sorry it took me so long to review and then swamp you with comments all at once XD
 327 2013-07-17 06:07:37 <Krellan> ah ok - i wonder how many things that bitcoin-qt can do are *not* already covered by rpc commands - it should be possible to write a thin wrapper that looks like bitcoin-qt but talks to bitcoind RPC
 328 2013-07-17 06:08:01 Adrem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 329 2013-07-17 06:08:08 <Krellan> unless bitcoin-qt has some features in it that are not possible to remotely call (perhaps "Backup Wallet"?).
 330 2013-07-17 06:09:01 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: anything realtime
 331 2013-07-17 06:09:30 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: Spesmilo was a bitcoind-based wallet, FWIW; not maintained anymore, but feel free to pick it up
 332 2013-07-17 06:09:42 <Luke-Jr> uses some cute polling tricks to workaround bitcoind limitations
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 352 2013-07-17 06:57:30 <grau> !seen sipa
 353 2013-07-17 06:57:31 <gribble> sipa was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 hours, 4 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <sipa> never knew that :D
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 359 2013-07-17 07:04:47 <gmaxwell> !seen sipa_
 360 2013-07-17 07:04:48 <gribble> sipa_ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 6 weeks, 0 days, 3 hours, 14 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <sipa_> well it replaces the p value that you wanted to store before
 361 2013-07-17 07:07:14 <grau> gmaxwell: hi greg, first BIP32 wallet here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=257690.0
 362 2013-07-17 07:07:25 <grau> curious of your reservations :)
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 425 2013-07-17 08:24:36 <warren> anyone keeping track of the number of active listening nodes?
 426 2013-07-17 08:24:55 ThomasV has joined
 427 2013-07-17 08:25:06 <BlueMatt> warren: dnsseeds are
 428 2013-07-17 08:25:25 <warren> I'm just curious if there's a chart of the rough quantity/time
 429 2013-07-17 08:25:53 <BlueMatt> I know Ive seen them, but they are generally broken afair
 430 2013-07-17 08:25:55 <BlueMatt> its been a while
 431 2013-07-17 08:26:50 <sipa> my seed considers around 4000 peers 'good', according to some arbitrary and frequently changing criteria
 432 2013-07-17 08:27:47 <warren> that's the best kind of criteria
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 434 2013-07-17 08:32:55 btcera has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 435 2013-07-17 08:35:27 <sipa> perhaps, but it's useless as a long term measurr
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 441 2013-07-17 08:40:48 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i've seen roughly that same number over a long period of time with infrequent sampling where i consistently defined "good" as receiving a verack within the last hour
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 451 2013-07-17 08:55:01 <grau> sipa: hi. First BIP32 wallet available from BOP. Wanna test?
 452 2013-07-17 08:55:19 <grau> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=257690.0
 453 2013-07-17 08:56:08  has quit (Clown|!Clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 454 2013-07-17 08:58:48 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 455 2013-07-17 08:59:28 <sipa> grau: i'll try to fimd some time for that, but clients that are not even SPV are not really a priority for me
 456 2013-07-17 08:59:55 saintcajetan has joined
 457 2013-07-17 08:59:58 <grau> I know.
 458 2013-07-17 09:00:19 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
 459 2013-07-17 09:00:32 <grau> SPV is unfortunatelly not sufficient for lots of things people like.
 460 2013-07-17 09:01:04 alexwaters has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 461 2013-07-17 09:02:12 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
 462 2013-07-17 09:02:28 <BlueMatt> huh?
 463 2013-07-17 09:02:34 <BlueMatt> like?
 464 2013-07-17 09:02:35 valparaiso_afk is now known as valparaiso
 465 2013-07-17 09:03:07 <grau> Like query balance for an address, importing private key, using colors to mention a few
 466 2013-07-17 09:03:29 <BlueMatt> what?
 467 2013-07-17 09:03:43 <BlueMatt> query balance for an address, ok...
 468 2013-07-17 09:03:48 <BlueMatt> import private key? not at all true
 469 2013-07-17 09:03:56 <BlueMatt> colored coins: ofc you can do that
 470 2013-07-17 09:04:04 <grau> Import private key for SPV is prohibitaly expensive
 471 2013-07-17 09:04:15 <BlueMatt> not at all
 472 2013-07-17 09:04:25 <BlueMatt> as long as the private key has a birthday along with it, its very cheap
 473 2013-07-17 09:04:50 <grau> It does not have birthday on a note or Casasscius coin
 474 2013-07-17 09:05:03 <BlueMatt> it can, and probably should
 475 2013-07-17 09:05:29 <BlueMatt> in any case, most of these aren't things you need to do often (if at all, really)
 476 2013-07-17 09:05:32 <BlueMatt> for normal users
 477 2013-07-17 09:05:32 <grau> bottom line is, that if you want user nice experience SPV is poor as of now.
 478 2013-07-17 09:05:58 <BlueMatt> have you used the bitcoinj wallet in the app store?
 479 2013-07-17 09:06:52 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 480 2013-07-17 09:06:57 <grau> I do not doubt that the bitcoinj walet is good for what it does and is even quick.
 481 2013-07-17 09:07:12 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 482 2013-07-17 09:07:12 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 483 2013-07-17 09:07:14 <grau> I claim that for features I want to offer SPV is not sufficient now.
 484 2013-07-17 09:07:37 <BlueMatt> if you are a really advanced user, you may need more than bitcoinj, but if you are an advanced user, you probably dont want to trust an app which has a security model less than SPV
 485 2013-07-17 09:07:59 i2pRelay has joined
 486 2013-07-17 09:08:08 Diablo-D3 has joined
 487 2013-07-17 09:08:11 <grau> I am talking about not advanced user but ordinary user who want more than being able to pay.
 488 2013-07-17 09:08:34 <BlueMatt> Id consider wanting anything more than being able to pay an advanced user
 489 2013-07-17 09:08:45 <grau> no
 490 2013-07-17 09:08:52 wiretapped has joined
 491 2013-07-17 09:09:18 sacredchao has joined
 492 2013-07-17 09:09:23 <grau> Ordinary user want lots of features and have less concern in trusting the provider.
 493 2013-07-17 09:09:36 <grau> like it or not.
 494 2013-07-17 09:09:39 <BlueMatt> Id agree only with the second part
 495 2013-07-17 09:10:03 <BlueMatt> importing privkeys, I can see people wanting that, but only because people send around privkeys
 496 2013-07-17 09:10:05 <grau> I will use SPV as soon as we work out how to support more than just payment.
 497 2013-07-17 09:10:09 <BlueMatt> which needs to be strongly discouraged anyway
 498 2013-07-17 09:10:31 <BlueMatt> the others, I see no reason why ordinary users would need that
 499 2013-07-17 09:10:36 <grau> I am not here to discourage but to enable business
 500 2013-07-17 09:11:19 <grau> I so see, and have uses. This is not a discussion on technology, perabs off topic here.
 501 2013-07-17 09:11:45 <grau> I do agree that SPV should be preferred, but is simply not enough for what I want to build.
 502 2013-07-17 09:12:15 <BlueMatt> it usually is, but it takes a lot more effort to implement more advanced features properly in an spv client
 503 2013-07-17 09:12:24 <BlueMatt> even an spv client that semi-trusts a server
 504 2013-07-17 09:12:25 <grau> I am not importing private keys, but sweeping them.
 505 2013-07-17 09:12:58 <BlueMatt> yea, that is what is meant by importing
 506 2013-07-17 09:13:12 <BlueMatt> people actually importing keys and putting them in a keychain are doing something entirely wrong
 507 2013-07-17 09:13:16 <grau> I see no chance implementing colored oins with SPV until there are opcode in scripts that validate.
 508 2013-07-17 09:13:18 <BlueMatt> (unless they know the key)
 509 2013-07-17 09:13:32 <BlueMatt> depends on what you actually want to do with colored coins
 510 2013-07-17 09:13:34 MichaelGooden has joined
 511 2013-07-17 09:14:04 <grau> Sweep is not importing key but taking all funds from it with a transaction
 512 2013-07-17 09:14:23 toffoo has quit ()
 513 2013-07-17 09:14:25 <BlueMatt> well importing privkey means either sweep or permanently sweep
 514 2013-07-17 09:14:39 <grau> I am not importing. (dot)
 515 2013-07-17 09:15:05 <sipa> grau: imho, anything like casascius physical coins should include the txid:vout of the txout crediting it, so you don't need a rescan
 516 2013-07-17 09:15:30 <grau> sipa: would be even better no doubt, but is not yet there
 517 2013-07-17 09:15:35 <sipa> sure, that doesn't work for coins that can be credited after that fact, but essentially those are mini-wallets
 518 2013-07-17 09:15:40 barwizi has joined
 519 2013-07-17 09:16:06 <sipa> in any case, i'd rather work on having a committed address-indexed utxo set
 520 2013-07-17 09:16:15 <sipa> so SPV wallets can safely query balances
 521 2013-07-17 09:16:39 <grau> sipa: once they do I will use SPV.
 522 2013-07-17 09:16:44 <grau> I am a bad C++ programmer
 523 2013-07-17 09:17:03 <grau> so I wont help you with that in bitcoind
 524 2013-07-17 09:18:23 <grau> sipa: I think there is a project ongoing crowd financed for that right?
 525 2013-07-17 09:19:11 Moo-_- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 526 2013-07-17 09:19:17 <sipa> yes
 527 2013-07-17 09:19:25 <sipa> maaku is working on that
 528 2013-07-17 09:19:46 <sipa> but in any case we're very far from having this in production
 529 2013-07-17 09:20:03 <grau> that is the point
 530 2013-07-17 09:20:12 cypher has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 531 2013-07-17 09:20:26 <grau> I can not afford waiting for that but need the functionality
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 533 2013-07-17 09:20:50 <sipa> i'd argue that you can work around it for anything but advanced usage
 534 2013-07-17 09:21:09 <sipa> but it's not my place to tell you not to do something :)
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 537 2013-07-17 09:21:16 <coingenuity> grau: nobody can afford to wait for it, and at the same time, it's not worth designing your own client since the bitcoin protocol's landscape evolves pretty quickly, so you can only really hot-patch and hope for a mainline in the future
 538 2013-07-17 09:21:21 <grau> Do you call anything above payments advanced?
 539 2013-07-17 09:22:19 <sipa> if you're talking about sweeping a key without txid or even a birthdate? i'd just call that broken
 540 2013-07-17 09:22:26 <sipa> but unfortunately, it exists :)
 541 2013-07-17 09:22:29 <grau> coingenuity: kind advice a bit late in my case :)
 542 2013-07-17 09:22:54 <grau> broken, but liked by lot.
 543 2013-07-17 09:23:04 <sipa> yeah, i have some myself :)
 544 2013-07-17 09:23:32 <grau> I'd claim 99.9% of cold wallets are that.
 545 2013-07-17 09:23:33 <sipa> it's just a pity that we need to build an ecosystem that requires a badly scaling design, just to support that
 546 2013-07-17 09:23:56 <sipa> just rescanning an incremental piece of blockchain isn't really bad
 547 2013-07-17 09:24:23 <sipa> but i'm not going to have this discussion again
 548 2013-07-17 09:24:36 <sipa> i'm happy people work on anything to improve usability
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 551 2013-07-17 09:25:20 <grau> thanks. I think usability is what we need to expand this economy. There are compromises that we have to revisit.
 552 2013-07-17 09:26:06 <sipa> I don't think we need to expand this economy before the technology is ready for it at all, but I'm sure people will very much disagree with me about that (and that's probably a good thing).
 553 2013-07-17 09:26:37 <grau> BTW: why did you oppose to include birthday into BIP32 serialization, then ?
 554 2013-07-17 09:26:52 <midnightmagic> :-/
 555 2013-07-17 09:27:00 <sipa> because that's wallet data, not key data
 556 2013-07-17 09:27:07 <sipa> keys are more generic than addresses
 557 2013-07-17 09:27:19 <grau> but you agree it would support cold wallet scan
 558 2013-07-17 09:27:24 <sipa> sure
 559 2013-07-17 09:27:28 <grau> it could be ignored
 560 2013-07-17 09:27:33 <sipa> i'm not opposed to standardizing a serialization that adds a birthday
 561 2013-07-17 09:27:41 <grau> just like hiararchy
 562 2013-07-17 09:27:42 <coingenuity> the economy needs to mature more than the tech - we're almost half a decade in, and a billion dollar market cap, yet we don't have even basic government lobbies/representatives in any nation worldwide....
 563 2013-07-17 09:27:50 <grau> huh?
 564 2013-07-17 09:27:58 <BlueMatt> coingenuity: we do though
 565 2013-07-17 09:28:01 <coingenuity> you think there's a billion dollar drug company that doesn't have a lobby rep harassing congress?
 566 2013-07-17 09:28:10 <sipa> grau: i was about to propose this as a serialization: <key>@<unixtimestamp>
 567 2013-07-17 09:28:13 <coingenuity> BlueMatt bitcoin foundation doesn't count, imo
 568 2013-07-17 09:28:16 <BlueMatt> coingenuity: what do you think bitcoin foundation does all day, sit on their ass?
 569 2013-07-17 09:28:23 <coingenuity> that's a PR group, more than a lobby
 570 2013-07-17 09:28:23 <c0rw1n> yes
 571 2013-07-17 09:28:29 <sipa> grau: which would work for any type of key, regardless of BIP33 or not
 572 2013-07-17 09:28:33 <sipa> BIP32
 573 2013-07-17 09:28:37 <grau> sounds good
 574 2013-07-17 09:28:39 <BlueMatt> coingenuity: they have spent time in Washington, doing the usual stuff
 575 2013-07-17 09:28:46 <grau> I missed that suggestion, is new?
 576 2013-07-17 09:28:46 <BlueMatt> coingenuity: is there a difference, really?
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 578 2013-07-17 09:29:02 <sipa> grau: i haven't talked about it really, i haven't had much time lately
 579 2013-07-17 09:29:14 <BlueMatt> coingenuity: also, bitcoin foundation is (has?) hired a real lobbyist...
 580 2013-07-17 09:29:23 <sipa> like, fulltime, afaik
 581 2013-07-17 09:29:33 <grau> I think it is worth of a BIP to define cold wallet format
 582 2013-07-17 09:29:45 <coingenuity> while they do good things, this is the first i've heard that they've taken steps to make government regulators more keen on bitcoin
 583 2013-07-17 09:29:46 <c0rw1n> the one thing they have to do is "shower politicians with money" and they don't have the money. Wake me up when they'll have spent a billion usd in campaign funding, then they'll have SOME say in WADC
 584 2013-07-17 09:29:57 <coingenuity> BlueMatt, i'm quite happy to hear that
 585 2013-07-17 09:29:58 <grau> full time olso means I have to work in Bitcoin topics that are paid for :(
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 588 2013-07-17 09:30:19 <TD> not yet, iirc
 589 2013-07-17 09:30:23 <TD> lobbyist isn't hired yet
 590 2013-07-17 09:30:24 <sipa> grau: i'd like a format that just lists keys, transactions, and the hash of the block they were last seen it
 591 2013-07-17 09:30:37 <coingenuity> still, i think a more concerted effort needs to be made community-wide before we'll see any real growth
 592 2013-07-17 09:30:45 <coingenuity> we're not attracting the whales we could be
 593 2013-07-17 09:30:54 <BlueMatt> that takes time
 594 2013-07-17 09:31:04 <sipa> grau: the transactions can be optional of course, which means you need to rescan or have access to some wallet server like yours
 595 2013-07-17 09:31:09 <coingenuity> like, tumblr guy didn't dump $1m out of his $1.1bn into bitcoin yet, and he damn well knows it exists
 596 2013-07-17 09:31:11 <TD> lol
 597 2013-07-17 09:31:14 <TD> "real growth"
 598 2013-07-17 09:31:14 <BlueMatt> first you need the startups that do it well, then the whales can buy the startups and integrate ;)
 599 2013-07-17 09:31:23 <TD> people are so impatient these days ....
 600 2013-07-17 09:31:38 <grau> sipa: I will draft it in a free time (if you are not faster)
 601 2013-07-17 09:31:48 <sipa> grau: i likely won'
 602 2013-07-17 09:32:01 <sipa> i have way more that i'd like to do than what i have time for
 603 2013-07-17 09:32:12 <BlueMatt> don't we all?
 604 2013-07-17 09:32:13 <grau> all of us
 605 2013-07-17 09:32:17 <sipa> yeah :)
 606 2013-07-17 09:32:43 <TD> it's a sad thing when someone is bottlenecked by ideas rather than time ...
 607 2013-07-17 09:32:52 <sipa> haha
 608 2013-07-17 09:33:11 <c0rw1n> not all. i have the ideas, and the time. but not the skill. Mabe not enough time to learn enough to do the things
 609 2013-07-17 09:34:19 <grau> A politically correct formulation for the dumb: idea constrained.
 610 2013-07-17 09:34:34 <TD> heh
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 621 2013-07-17 10:00:18 <sipa> grau: "inspirationally challenged"
 622 2013-07-17 10:00:35 <grau> :)
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 643 2013-07-17 11:00:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: how fast can libsecp256k1 do a sign operation these days?
 644 2013-07-17 11:01:53 <sipa> 30us or so
 645 2013-07-17 11:02:16 <sipa> the speed factor over openssl is smaller for signing than for verification
 646 2013-07-17 11:02:53 <BlueMatt> what does a verify operation take?
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 649 2013-07-17 11:05:33 <sipa> 100us
 650 2013-07-17 11:05:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: thanks, just needed a quote for how fast you can increment a payment channel
 651 2013-07-17 11:06:05 <sipa> afaik, signing in openssl is around 100us and verifying is 600us
 652 2013-07-17 11:06:18 <sipa> on one particular 64-bit system
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 654 2013-07-17 11:06:27 <sipa> with asm-optimized 5x52 field in secp256k1
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 656 2013-07-17 11:09:18 <warren> sipa: our mac guy is having trouble with gmp's 32bit makefile on mac, 64bit works just fine.  did TheUni already fix this with his autotools thing?
 657 2013-07-17 11:09:23 <BlueMatt> sipa: good enough for me, just needed a big number I can put on a slide (1,000 per second!)
 658 2013-07-17 11:09:31 <warren> sipa: just things are defined wrong
 659 2013-07-17 11:09:48 <warren> sipa: (did theuni cover secp256k1?)
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 667 2013-07-17 11:14:55 <sipa> warren: afaik he hasn't submitted anything
 668 2013-07-17 11:15:11 <warren> ok, he was talking about it back then, I'll get back to this.
 669 2013-07-17 11:15:38 <warren> sipa: i'd submit 0.8 makefile fixes and gitian fixes, but it seems pointless if we're going to replace it all with auto*
 670 2013-07-17 11:16:17 <warren> I have secp256k1 build and gitian working on both linux and win32, and mac 64bit only
 671 2013-07-17 11:16:33 <warren> mac 32bit can be made to work but we wonder if TheUni already did it
 672 2013-07-17 11:22:37 <warren> gavinandresen: btw, bitcoin's build scripts/documentation seems to suggest that it works on MacOS X 10.5.x.  Following your directions it does seem to work on 10.5.x, but it crashes with a socket error randomly after a few minutes of runtime.  MacOS X 10.6.x seems to work.  We've just declared 10.5.x unsupported because it is so old and we have no hardware to test it.
 673 2013-07-17 11:23:29 <warren> gavinandresen: (confirmed crash on both Bitcoin-Qt and Litecoin-Qt with the same build procedure)
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 677 2013-07-17 11:36:10 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, 100 usec is 10k/second
 678 2013-07-17 11:39:01 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: 600us isnt, but it doesnt matter for me
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 747 2013-07-17 14:14:40 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 753 2013-07-17 14:24:31 <BlueMatt> morning jgarzik
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 780 2013-07-17 15:15:17 <gmaxwell> Hm. Memory usage seems up again it bitcoind git. I'm setting 500 MB on a non-public exposed node with 9 connections (one local inbound). And >320MB on my laptop with no connections (tor shut down).
 781 2013-07-17 15:15:46 <BlueMatt> have you profiled?
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 783 2013-07-17 15:16:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I think not-connection-related memory usage has increased </gut impression>
 784 2013-07-17 15:17:19 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no, just noticed this in the last couple minutes. (someone on #bitcoin complaining that it fell over with a 512mb VPS; I was surprised to see my own so high)
 785 2013-07-17 15:17:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, well even 0.8.1 was never /that/ good, it just didnt grow quite as fast
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 789 2013-07-17 15:23:42 <gmaxwell> I boggle: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8392.msg2747910#msg2747910  this person is totally serious.
 790 2013-07-17 15:25:27 cc_8 has joined
 791 2013-07-17 15:25:36 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I boggle at kjj's patience dealing with idiots :)
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 793 2013-07-17 15:27:19 <sipa> gmaxwell: he's saying that openssl created the rejected signature?
 794 2013-07-17 15:27:23 <sipa> is there any evidence for that?
 795 2013-07-17 15:27:28 <sipa> if that is true, we have a problem
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 798 2013-07-17 15:29:15 <kinlo> sipa: why?  isn't everybody upgraded to 0.8.x already and no longer creating those invalids?
 799 2013-07-17 15:29:49 <sipa> kinlo: no bitcoin _ever_ should _ever_ have produced a signature that is currently being rejected
 800 2013-07-17 15:30:03 <sipa> only manual or alternate implementations have
 801 2013-07-17 15:30:08 <sipa> and it seems a manual case here
 802 2013-07-17 15:30:15 <kinlo> sipa: regardless, they have been present in the blockchain, no?
 803 2013-07-17 15:30:18 <sipa> yes
 804 2013-07-17 15:30:21 <sipa> they still are
 805 2013-07-17 15:30:33 <sipa> around 1-2% of transactions, some time ago
 806 2013-07-17 15:31:10 <kinlo> "still", isn't the blockchain forever? :)
 807 2013-07-17 15:31:15 <kinlo> or are you talking about the UXO
 808 2013-07-17 15:31:50 <sipa> i'm talking about blocks being mined right now
 809 2013-07-17 15:32:28 <BlueMatt> sipa: non-canonical txn are still being mined?
 810 2013-07-17 15:32:34 <TD> maybe time to read the openssl code?
 811 2013-07-17 15:33:58 <kinlo> sipa: mmz, aren't all blocks generated by 0.8 code?
 812 2013-07-17 15:34:43 <kinlo> sipa: or can I read this as "not all pools have upgraded and there will still be a split in the near future when we really go over the berkleydb limits"?
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 815 2013-07-17 15:39:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: i did say "some time ago"
 816 2013-07-17 15:39:27 <sipa> i don't have recent numbers
 817 2013-07-17 15:39:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, that would sound very surprising to me
 818 2013-07-17 15:39:47 <BlueMatt> or, at least, very disapointing
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 822 2013-07-17 15:44:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: darn it you beat me to posting. :P
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 824 2013-07-17 15:47:11 <sipa> i think his code to produce the actual script is buggy
 825 2013-07-17 15:47:19 <sipa> rather than the signature itself
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 829 2013-07-17 15:50:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: I am giggling at his signature.
 830 2013-07-17 15:51:00 <sipa> ha!
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 833 2013-07-17 15:55:25 <helo> heh
 834 2013-07-17 15:55:46 <grau> Can gribble be made creating an alert if a core dev says "we have a problem" ?
 835 2013-07-17 15:56:06 <sipa> define "an alert" ?
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 837 2013-07-17 15:57:49 <grau> was joking. I just casually switch here and spotted your comment
 838 2013-07-17 15:58:19 <gmaxwell> hah. hopefully no one with the altert key is leaving it around where a bot could get to it.
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 840 2013-07-17 15:58:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: we need an alert-key-PKI
 841 2013-07-17 15:58:46 <jaxkr> Hello. Is the guy who runs the bitcoin wiki in here?
 842 2013-07-17 15:58:53 <sipa> jaxkr: define 'runs' ?
 843 2013-07-17 15:59:19 <jaxkr> sipa: Whoever maintains the site and has control of the servers it's hosted on.
 844 2013-07-17 15:59:19 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: please state the nature of your biticoin wiki emergency.
 845 2013-07-17 15:59:33 <sipa> jaxkr: those are different people :)
 846 2013-07-17 15:59:44 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: Just tell us what your actual issue is?
 847 2013-07-17 15:59:49 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: No confirmation emails are being sent by the wiki. I've already paid the 10 mBTC, but can't confirm my emails.
 848 2013-07-17 15:59:55 <jaxkr> *email, so I am unable to edit.
 849 2013-07-17 16:00:08 <gmaxwell> hm. it requires you to confirm your email to edit? interesting!
 850 2013-07-17 16:00:38 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: Yeah. That, and the paywall. It is interesting.
 851 2013-07-17 16:00:44 <kinlo> gmaxwell: yeah, I doublechecked, it was required for my account too
 852 2013-07-17 16:00:56 <gmaxwell> Well the paywall should have made the email requirement moot.
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 854 2013-07-17 16:00:58 <kinlo> anyway, I doubt anyone else but magicaltux can help here?
 855 2013-07-17 16:01:21 <kinlo> gmaxwell: email requirements are good for lost passwords, but then again, that should be before the paywall
 856 2013-07-17 16:01:23 <gmaxwell> Yea, this needs magicaltux. Should probably make him turn off needed email validation.
 857 2013-07-17 16:01:37 <gmaxwell> kinlo: "sounds like a personal problem"
 858 2013-07-17 16:01:45 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: Yeah. That'd be nice. Should I shoot him an email?
 859 2013-07-17 16:01:46 <gmaxwell> oh but yea, the email out should be fixed for that too.
 860 2013-07-17 16:01:47 <kinlo> there aren't many other admins right? :)
 861 2013-07-17 16:01:58 <gmaxwell> kinlo: not with access to fix that, AFAIK.
 862 2013-07-17 16:02:03 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: sounds like a plan.
 863 2013-07-17 16:02:11 <jaxkr> kinlo: Probably not ones that can fix a problem with an email server.
 864 2013-07-17 16:02:26 <kinlo> gmaxwell: actually, uptil now all "password recovery" options I've ever used was to fix screwups by the other party, not me forgetting the password :)
 865 2013-07-17 16:02:51 <kinlo> gmaxwell: it's not that database hacks haven't been common in the past :p
 866 2013-07-17 16:03:05 <kinlo> or in the future - I expect only more sites to become hacked
 867 2013-07-17 16:03:33 <jaxkr> Wait, before emailing, I'll try the all powerful mention. magicaltux: Help.
 868 2013-07-17 16:03:34 warren has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 869 2013-07-17 16:03:53 <sipa> capitalization may help: MagicalTux: Help!
 870 2013-07-17 16:04:03 warren has joined
 871 2013-07-17 16:04:05 <kinlo> MagicalTux: we're stalking you  :)
 872 2013-07-17 16:04:12 <kinlo> MagicalTux: bitcoin.it needs your attention!
 873 2013-07-17 16:06:48 <gmaxwell> It isn't that urgent guys. :P
 874 2013-07-17 16:06:48 phpwn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 875 2013-07-17 16:06:58 <kinlo> true :)
 876 2013-07-17 16:07:04 <gmaxwell> This is why I had to turn off the sound to wake me up when I got pinged in here. :P
 877 2013-07-17 16:07:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8392.msg2748979#msg2748979
 878 2013-07-17 16:07:31 <kinlo> gmaxwell: I've got sleep-hours on all notifications for that reason :)
 879 2013-07-17 16:08:11 <jaxkr> kinlo, gmaxwell: I've got this cool thing for when I go to bed (and my computer does as well).
 880 2013-07-17 16:08:14 jaxkr has quit (Quit: Zzz… My computer went to sleep.)
 881 2013-07-17 16:08:30 <kinlo> nah, he's not addicted enough :p
 882 2013-07-17 16:08:56 jaxkr has joined
 883 2013-07-17 16:09:03 <jaxkr> This is a good client.
 884 2013-07-17 16:09:40 McKay has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 885 2013-07-17 16:09:54 <gmaxwell> kinlo: well, generally I _want_ to be woken up if something goes wrong.
 886 2013-07-17 16:10:43 <kinlo> gmaxwell: well, that's why you need to give out your mobile number to a few trusted person
 887 2013-07-17 16:10:51 <kinlo> I've got a few in several timezones
 888 2013-07-17 16:10:57 <kinlo> not enough, but still
 889 2013-07-17 16:11:37 <jaxkr> kinlo: You must be woken up a lot. My server sometimes sends panic text messages to me at 1 AM (because you know, nothing crashes during the day), when something goes down.
 890 2013-07-17 16:11:55 <kinlo> jaxkr: again, I have silent times
 891 2013-07-17 16:12:10 <kinlo> and those trusted people know when to send :)
 892 2013-07-17 16:12:24 <kinlo> gmaxwell: where do you live?
 893 2013-07-17 16:13:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: Do you feel bad yet?
 894 2013-07-17 16:13:11 <gmaxwell> kinlo: I'm in Pacific time.
 895 2013-07-17 16:13:34 <kinlo> oh, left side of america
 896 2013-07-17 16:13:37 <kinlo> :p
 897 2013-07-17 16:13:43 jedunnigan has joined
 898 2013-07-17 16:13:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm resisting my urge to xkcd 386
 899 2013-07-17 16:14:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm still curious as to just _how_ his push operation is managing to add padding.
 900 2013-07-17 16:15:08 <gmaxwell> I'm guessing that the type involved in some kind of byte array it's ending up as the allocated size instead of the encoded size (e.g. ignoring the length returned by openssl)
 901 2013-07-17 16:15:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: same, but i'm not very inclined to ask him for further explanation
 902 2013-07-17 16:15:42 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|;;google xkcd 386
 903 2013-07-17 16:15:42 <gribble> xkcd: Duty Calls: <http://xkcd.com/386/>; XKCD 386 (XKCD386) on Twitter: <https://twitter.com/XKCD386>; xkcd 386 | Tumblr: <http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/xkcd%20386>
 904 2013-07-17 16:15:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: ha, well he's kinda jumped the shark on this. I'm just laughing at it, not offended. And I hope you are too.
 905 2013-07-17 16:16:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: you bad bad man.
 906 2013-07-17 16:16:43 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, that one. Right.
 907 2013-07-17 16:16:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think it confirms we were right to enforce it :)
 908 2013-07-17 16:17:52 * Micha iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|recognizes most xkcds, but (mostly) not by number
 909 2013-07-17 16:18:35 <jaxkr> Micha|iPhone: What client are you using?
 910 2013-07-17 16:18:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: in this case it does, stupid DER. Certantly that not the case for all the inputs openssl accepts.
 911 2013-07-17 16:18:40 <jaxkr> I've been looking for a good one.
 912 2013-07-17 16:18:41 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|pretty sure I sat down and clicked through all of them at some point a while ago
 913 2013-07-17 16:18:58 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|jaxkr: I'm on Colloquy Mobile
 914 2013-07-17 16:19:13 <gmaxwell> Does ECDS_sign pass the actual length back in the *signlen pointer?
 915 2013-07-17 16:19:19 paulpw has quit (2!~paul@109.77.87.146|Read error: Operation timed out)
 916 2013-07-17 16:19:22 <jaxkr> Micha|iPhone: Good choice.
 917 2013-07-17 16:19:24 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|jaxkr: It's not perfect, but it's good wnough
 918 2013-07-17 16:19:37 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|jaxkr: Do you use a bouncer?
 919 2013-07-17 16:20:10 <gmaxwell> yea... seems it does.
 920 2013-07-17 16:21:12 licnep has joined
 921 2013-07-17 16:25:14 <jaxkr> What's your opinion on Bitmessage?
 922 2013-07-17 16:26:00 <sipa> oh, he's ignoring the returned signature size
 923 2013-07-17 16:26:01 <sipa> ha
 924 2013-07-17 16:26:15 <MC1984> bitmessage seems ok
 925 2013-07-17 16:26:23 <MC1984> has a strange scaling thing with the streams
 926 2013-07-17 16:26:50 <jaxkr> MC1984: I was just about to mention that. The methods he plans on using are weird.
 927 2013-07-17 16:26:53 <MC1984> i read the peers connections are not encrypted either which is lol
 928 2013-07-17 16:27:10 <jaxkr> Well, all of the data changing hands is.
 929 2013-07-17 16:27:21 <MC1984> yeah but still
 930 2013-07-17 16:27:43 <MC1984> we know now the threat model is every endpoint is essentially tapped, so
 931 2013-07-17 16:28:27 <MC1984> the streams thing is like something bitcoin would do if it didnt rely on consensus :)
 932 2013-07-17 16:28:31 <jaxkr> Yeah. From the level of the ISP. That's why VPNs are pretty great, assuming the VPN service isn't watching you.
 933 2013-07-17 16:28:49 <MC1984> try about 3 levels above your isp
 934 2013-07-17 16:29:13 <jaxkr> Yeah. I read somewhere that mining is now pretty much a waste of electricity since Bitcoin operates on consensus.
 935 2013-07-17 16:29:21 <jaxkr> Then they referenced me to the March 2012 fork.
 936 2013-07-17 16:29:22 <MC1984> even above the teir 1 providers, depending on what employees knows what
 937 2013-07-17 16:30:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: I wonder if he responds again now that I've explained his bug and basically how to fix it.
 938 2013-07-17 16:30:04 phpwn has joined
 939 2013-07-17 16:30:09 <MC1984> what? that makes no sense
 940 2013-07-17 16:30:18 phpwn has left ()
 941 2013-07-17 16:30:22 <MC1984> mining creates the consensus
 942 2013-07-17 16:30:35 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|^
 943 2013-07-17 16:30:41 <MC1984> you may be thinking of mining now being c/o friedcat in china
 944 2013-07-17 16:30:43 <jaxkr> MC1984: I know. Which is why what they said bugged me. They were a Sr. Member though, so I thought they might have some point.
 945 2013-07-17 16:31:13 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: yea, there are some "Sr. members" who are just trolls that post a lot.
 946 2013-07-17 16:31:18 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: whoever said that was confused.
 947 2013-07-17 16:31:27 <MC1984> lol do not be so quick to defer to apparent authority
 948 2013-07-17 16:31:31 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: Thanks for clarifying.
 949 2013-07-17 16:31:34 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 950 2013-07-17 16:31:42 <sipa> jaxkr: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9986/how-is-a-hard-fork-resolved
 951 2013-07-17 16:31:48 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: the authority problem is why some users have special badges.
 952 2013-07-17 16:32:14 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: Such as? I've only seen Donor, VIP, Moderator, and Admin.
 953 2013-07-17 16:32:22 <jaxkr> In addition to the normal member ranks,.
 954 2013-07-17 16:32:34 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: Look for people who have the books or the golden B by their name: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8392.msg2748751#msg2748751 (books) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8392.msg2748795#msg2748795 (golden b)
 955 2013-07-17 16:32:52 <MC1984> the piss coloured ignore badge that goes from waterlogged to dehydrated always gets me
 956 2013-07-17 16:32:58 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 957 2013-07-17 16:33:06 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: Ah. Core devs and experts.
 958 2013-07-17 16:34:10 GordonG3kko has joined
 959 2013-07-17 16:34:54 patcon has joined
 960 2013-07-17 16:35:14 <gmaxwell> Should probably give the expert badge to the coredevs too, simply so there is less stuff to remember.
 961 2013-07-17 16:35:36 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: Yeah. The core devs are probably experts.
 962 2013-07-17 16:35:57 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
 963 2013-07-17 16:36:06 <gmaxwell> Sure, it was intended to be expert as a subset of coredevs, but the relationship isn't obvious.
 964 2013-07-17 16:36:30 <jaxkr> Are all the experts light developers at least?
 965 2013-07-17 16:37:38 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: all of them have the capability at least.
 966 2013-07-17 16:37:43 <gmaxwell> https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ssl.ECDSA_sign%280%2C+hash%2C+len%28hash%29%2C+mb_sig%2C+ctypes.byref%28sig_size0%29%2C+self.k%29%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-nightly
 967 2013-07-17 16:38:00 Tantadruj has joined
 968 2013-07-17 16:38:06 <MC1984> as i understand it, its more amorphous than you think
 969 2013-07-17 16:38:12 <MC1984> thats how open source rolls
 970 2013-07-17 16:38:20 <MC1984> you could look at the contrib page on github
 971 2013-07-17 16:38:22 <gmaxwell> It's interesting that he appears to have copied code from the internet, but elsewhere people are getting this right.
 972 2013-07-17 16:38:49 <gmaxwell> oh, some are, some arent.
 973 2013-07-17 16:39:57 <MC1984> garzik?
 974 2013-07-17 16:43:37 PalePhoenix has joined
 975 2013-07-17 16:44:45 <jaxkr> I have a question. Would a proof of work with a morphing hash algorithm be feasible? For example, it looks at the first few bytes of the hash of data to decide what algorithms to use. For example, 0aa could be sha-256, sha-256, sha-512.
 976 2013-07-17 16:47:36 <MC1984> We call that the ASIC fucker special
 977 2013-07-17 16:47:57 <jaxkr> MC1984: It would be designed to be an asic fucker.
 978 2013-07-17 16:47:59 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 979 2013-07-17 16:48:05 <sipa> i don't see how it would be
 980 2013-07-17 16:48:07 <MC1984> well you could make asics that do it, but it would trash all the currnt ones
 981 2013-07-17 16:48:26 <sipa> they'd just only mine hashes that require hashing by their own algorithm?
 982 2013-07-17 16:48:41 <sipa> oh, you mean require hashing using several algorithms
 983 2013-07-17 16:48:51 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinlib/pull/6
 984 2013-07-17 16:48:53 <MC1984> + it would raise the barrier to entry to those people with resources to tape large asics with 3 different hash engines
 985 2013-07-17 16:49:01 <MC1984> which is opposite to what we want
 986 2013-07-17 16:49:44 <MC1984> artificially making mining harder only benefits the sot of people youd probably call advesary or attacker, imo
 987 2013-07-17 16:49:53 <jaxkr> MC1984: Wait, what's your opinion in ASICs in general, and entities like ASICMINER?
 988 2013-07-17 16:50:40 <jgarzik> <MC1984> has a strange scaling thing with the streams   <<-- with "strange" being "only one stream is implemented, so it doesn't scale" :)
 989 2013-07-17 16:50:47 <MC1984> asics are an inevitability and i view them as neutral, asicminer worries me because its the people saying they dont give a flying fuck about bitcoins liberating properties as long as they get thiers
 990 2013-07-17 16:50:52 <jgarzik> For the record, I do think bitmessage is a fun project
 991 2013-07-17 16:51:30 <MC1984> its people choosing convenience over freedoms and shit, again
 992 2013-07-17 16:51:32 <MC1984> imo
 993 2013-07-17 16:51:33 <jaxkr> jgarzik: It is fun, but the method v2 uses for message encoding bugs me.
 994 2013-07-17 16:51:40 <jaxkr> MC1984: I agree.
 995 2013-07-17 16:52:18 <MC1984> its a possible microcosm of the possible conclusion that things are as they are because people want them to be
 996 2013-07-17 16:52:25 <phantomcircuit> jaxkr, mtgox recently had an issue with their email infrastructure, i would venture to guess that the wiki was using the same infrastructure and is broken because of changes to it
 997 2013-07-17 16:52:26 <MC1984> which leads me to a black place
 998 2013-07-17 16:52:33 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 999 2013-07-17 16:52:36 <phantomcircuit> and also probably nobody really cares about fixing it
1000 2013-07-17 16:52:43 <gmaxwell> Bitmessage is fun.
1001 2013-07-17 16:52:56 <jaxkr> phantomcircuit: Good observation, thank you. But, new members cannot be created at this time.
1002 2013-07-17 16:53:50 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: encrypted = highlevelcrypto.encrypt(payload,"04"+pubEncryptionKeyBase256.encode('hex')) Except it hides the sender and receiver of messages, which is silly in my opinion, since the addresses are like Bitcoin addresses and just hashes of pub keys.
1003 2013-07-17 16:54:36 peetaur2 has joined
1004 2013-07-17 16:55:25 <gmaxwell> jaxkr: yea, I dunno why they keep that design— using pubkey hashes actually degrades their security model. I hope they'll change it.
1005 2013-07-17 16:57:07 <jaxkr> gmaxwell: Also, you have to store the pubkeys of EVERYONE in your stream.
1006 2013-07-17 16:58:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, explain bitmessage in 1 sentence
1007 2013-07-17 16:58:22 <phantomcircuit> feel free to use ridiculous words
1008 2013-07-17 17:01:51 digitalmagus has joined
1009 2013-07-17 17:03:23 ericmuyser has joined
1010 2013-07-17 17:03:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: A flooding p2p network hides who is talking to who.
1011 2013-07-17 17:04:37 <MC1984> does it?
1012 2013-07-17 17:04:45 <phantomcircuit> is that really their design?
1013 2013-07-17 17:04:48 <phantomcircuit> that's amusign
1014 2013-07-17 17:05:08 <MC1984> couldnt a good timing attack deal with it
1015 2013-07-17 17:05:26 <MC1984> the msg acks dont do POW do they
1016 2013-07-17 17:06:28 <MC1984> phantomcircuit why amusing?
1017 2013-07-17 17:06:35 <MC1984> how would you do what theyre trying to do
1018 2013-07-17 17:06:56 brson has joined
1019 2013-07-17 17:07:28 <jchp> scaling their design without trading off network analysis seems non-trivial
1020 2013-07-17 17:08:21 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, their design presumably doesn't actually provide any protection against network analysis from a global observer
1021 2013-07-17 17:08:21 <MC1984> i wonder how its decided when a new stream in needed
1022 2013-07-17 17:08:25 <MC1984> if that ever happens
1023 2013-07-17 17:08:32 <phantomcircuit> they can still see where a message likely originated
1024 2013-07-17 17:09:03 <phantomcircuit> an onion network with chaff would likely provide stronger network analysis resistance
1025 2013-07-17 17:09:12 <MC1984> chaff?
1026 2013-07-17 17:09:17 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, garbage
1027 2013-07-17 17:09:57 <MC1984> i wonder how many projects can leech off tor before it collapses
1028 2013-07-17 17:10:11 <phantomcircuit> especially with low bandwidth messaging simply sending a constant stream of 1 kbps to several peers would make network analysis impossible
1029 2013-07-17 17:10:23 <phantomcircuit> since you'd just replace a garbage packet with a data packet
1030 2013-07-17 17:11:40 <MC1984> i remember waste had that
1031 2013-07-17 17:11:47 <MC1984> back in 55k days lol
1032 2013-07-17 17:11:50 <MC1984> 56k
1033 2013-07-17 17:11:51 <jchp> imo the fundamental problem with bitmessage is it's broadcast oriented, and they "solve" it using streams which my impression is it creates a happy-fun route to force network analysis
1034 2013-07-17 17:12:15 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1035 2013-07-17 17:12:16 <MC1984> i wish waste had gotten more development
1036 2013-07-17 17:12:33 <jchp> someone could DDoS the bitmessage network for a couple days and then watch what happens
1037 2013-07-17 17:12:54 <jchp> unless i misunderstood their paper
1038 2013-07-17 17:13:06 <MC1984> my undestanding is its release was justin frankels final fuck you to every suit hed ever dealt with
1039 2013-07-17 17:14:23 <gmaxwell> jchp: they propose multiple streams for scaling, it's not insane.
1040 2013-07-17 17:15:06 <gmaxwell> jchp: there is only a question of "do you get a large enough anonymity set while having acceptable bandwidth".
1041 2013-07-17 17:15:30 <gmaxwell> ISTM that your needed anonymity set is a constant that depends on what you're doing. But the available bandwidth grows with technology.
1042 2013-07-17 17:15:49 <gmaxwell> Soooo.. over time a system like bitmessage should become safer for more kinds of activities.
1043 2013-07-17 17:16:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: mixing networks have sybil attack problems that no one knows how to resolve.
1044 2013-07-17 17:17:30 <jchp> but increased participants "seems" like an n^2 proposition, it seeems relatively easy to inject noise into the streams of a target/victim to figure out their network
1045 2013-07-17 17:17:37 <gmaxwell> Tor reduces them with centeralization (directory servers) and very assumptions about the independance of hosts on seperate IP space which are known invalid against powerful attackers.
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1047 2013-07-17 17:18:25 <gmaxwell> jchp: the idea is what stream you are on is not a secret. But if you share stream XYZ with 10000 parties, thats still a degree of anonymity.
1048 2013-07-17 17:18:27 <jchp> it's not like you can reject untrusted participants, that's already game over w.r.t. network analysis
1049 2013-07-17 17:19:02 CheckDavid has joined
1050 2013-07-17 17:19:17 <gmaxwell> The idea is also not multially exclusive with using an onion network. You could use bitmessage as a hop in one.
1051 2013-07-17 17:19:32 ericmuyser has joined
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1053 2013-07-17 17:20:40 <jchp> well the problem is DDoSing an onion hidden service is obvious
1054 2013-07-17 17:20:58 <jaxkr> MC1984: No message acks still have to do PoWs, but they're much easier.
1055 2013-07-17 17:21:13 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1056 2013-07-17 17:21:26 <jchp> with bitmessage it just looks like the stream is getting popular/high traffic when in reality you're getting sybil attacked to force into creating a smaller stream
1057 2013-07-17 17:22:04 <gmaxwell> jchp: indeed, otoh, we can speak concretely about the cost of doing that.
1058 2013-07-17 17:22:12 <gmaxwell> Because flooding it requires doing a lot of POW.
1059 2013-07-17 17:22:15 <jchp> oh yeah this is all theoretical ;-)
1060 2013-07-17 17:22:28 <jchp> to be able to actually do this sounds ridiculously hard
1061 2013-07-17 17:22:31 agnostic_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1062 2013-07-17 17:22:34 <jchp> and costs a lot of money
1063 2013-07-17 17:22:35 <gmaxwell> Vs say the cost of running a bunch of sybil nodes on tor.. which is harder to reason about and quite low in general.
1064 2013-07-17 17:22:45 <jaxkr> jchp: The average PoW takes about 1 full minute.
1065 2013-07-17 17:22:47 <jchp> i'm assuming a target with infinite money
1066 2013-07-17 17:23:05 <gmaxwell> and if we're unhappy about the cost in bitmessage we can increase the POW (though making the network more costly to use)
1067 2013-07-17 17:23:26 <jchp> err attacker
1068 2013-07-17 17:23:29 Micha has quit (iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
1069 2013-07-17 17:23:30 <gmaxwell> jchp: basically nothing is secure against an infinite resource attacker. :P  "I tried all the possible keys"
1070 2013-07-17 17:23:44 <gmaxwell> (well, okay, statistical zero knoweldge is— but most things aren't that secure)
1071 2013-07-17 17:24:20 <jchp> haha toungue in cheek, but yes i see your point
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1075 2013-07-17 17:32:00 <jchp> actually it'd be amusing if there was a twist on bitmessage which had bridging of streams and did onion routing
1076 2013-07-17 17:32:18 <jaxkr> jchp: It already can do onion routing.
1077 2013-07-17 17:32:22 <jchp> oh?
1078 2013-07-17 17:32:35 <jchp> that makes it very interesting
1079 2013-07-17 17:32:54 <MC1984> its own onion?
1080 2013-07-17 17:32:57 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Neat.  Did you test that python-bitcoinlib commit?
1081 2013-07-17 17:33:19 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1083 2013-07-17 17:34:05 <jchp> so if you had small bandwidth broadcast pools that routed to each other (and had proper limits/TTL-hops in place) that seems REALLY secure
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1092 2013-07-17 17:42:07 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I didn't. Didn't even run it. Might be pure syntax errors.
1093 2013-07-17 17:42:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: you sound like satoshi
1094 2013-07-17 17:42:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Ok, so Linus Torvalds Code Level 2: it looks correct
1095 2013-07-17 17:42:36 <jgarzik> (level 4 is "it compiles")
1096 2013-07-17 17:42:38 <gmaxwell> I pointed the guy on the forum who was having problems to it though. At least he might run it.
1097 2013-07-17 17:43:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: i once got a patch from satoshi (indirectly via gavin) for something i asked to change in the code
1098 2013-07-17 17:43:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: it didn't compile
1099 2013-07-17 17:43:46 <sipa> jgarzik: what is level 3?
1100 2013-07-17 17:43:58 nimdAHK has quit (Quit: Quit: Quit: Quit: Quit recursing, please.)
1101 2013-07-17 17:44:02 <jchp> arguing on a mailing list about proper decorum and behavior?
1102 2013-07-17 17:45:24 jaxkr has quit (Quit: Zzz… My computer went to sleep.)
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1121 2013-07-17 18:08:27 <jgarzik> CodeShark, can you rebase #2121?  Pretty please with sugar on it?
1122 2013-07-17 18:09:18 <sipa> jgarzik: i've been planning on rewriting #2121 together with changing the key record format in the wallet
1123 2013-07-17 18:10:02 <jgarzik> sipa, I was kinda hoping that 'importaddress' work accept public keys, too, not just addresses
1124 2013-07-17 18:10:07 <jgarzik> *would
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1126 2013-07-17 18:11:16 <sipa> (just use a single pubkey -> (type,keydata,peypoolnum,metadata)
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1129 2013-07-17 18:11:51 <sipa> and merge it with P2SH data
1130 2013-07-17 18:11:58 <sipa> which can be watch-only too or not
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1132 2013-07-17 18:13:49 <sipa> it's ridiculous that we really store every key 3 times now
1133 2013-07-17 18:14:02 <sipa> (once for the actual key data, once for the keypool, once for the metadata)
1134 2013-07-17 18:14:12 <sipa> and that scripts and keys are dealt with separately
1135 2013-07-17 18:14:38 <sipa> but i dislike needing to write upgrade code for all possible cases
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1138 2013-07-17 18:16:14 <jgarzik> "It's ridiculous"  <<-- agreed
1139 2013-07-17 18:16:16 <sipa> if it's acceptable that "starting 0.9 once will upgrade your wallet in a backward-incompatible way", it's easy to do
1140 2013-07-17 18:16:35 <sipa> and if we're planning to move to a difference storage format altogether, that is probably the case
1141 2013-07-17 18:17:04 <jgarzik> sipa, yes
1142 2013-07-17 18:17:10 <jgarzik> sipa, contingent on the latter...
1143 2013-07-17 18:17:32 * jgarzik looks forward to dropping BDB
1144 2013-07-17 18:17:34 <sipa> we could of course still decide that the new format won't make it into 0.9, and add code to make the upgrading conditional
1145 2013-07-17 18:17:45 <jgarzik> (in some future when upgrades aren't necessary)
1146 2013-07-17 18:18:03 <sipa> we could move conversion code to a separate binary
1147 2013-07-17 18:18:23 <jgarzik> eventually
1148 2013-07-17 18:18:29 <sipa> yeah, not immediately
1149 2013-07-17 18:19:18 <jgarzik> would be fun to build a conversion tool that did not require linking with BDB lib itself </side tracked></masochist>
1150 2013-07-17 18:19:43 <sipa> sure, you just submit it to an online convertor service :p
1151 2013-07-17 18:19:57 <jgarzik> no I mean just speak the BDB file format, and don't link with the lib
1152 2013-07-17 18:20:04 <sipa> i know what you mean
1153 2013-07-17 18:20:16 <sipa> and i just gave a solution that technically satisfies that :p
1154 2013-07-17 18:20:24 <sipa> (the uploader tool won't link with BDB)
1155 2013-07-17 18:20:31 <jgarzik> heh
1156 2013-07-17 18:20:47 <jgarzik> Did the new wallet format ever get defined?
1157 2013-07-17 18:20:58 <sipa> i wrote one once
1158 2013-07-17 18:21:23 <sipa> just a list of blocks, each sha-checksummed and timestamped, containing update and delete records
1159 2013-07-17 18:21:57 <sipa> if there is a read error at some point, you just get an older version
1160 2013-07-17 18:22:12 <sipa> which, when combined with deterministic keys, doesn't result in lost money
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1163 2013-07-17 18:22:36 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|The question with moving to a new format if you want to auto-migrate is, how long do you keep the converter built in
1164 2013-07-17 18:23:02 <jgarzik> yes
1165 2013-07-17 18:23:10 <jgarzik> though not a super-critical question
1166 2013-07-17 18:23:14 <sipa> jgarzik: you sound like prolog
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1168 2013-07-17 18:23:21 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|So if a new wallet format comes in 0.9, how long do you leave bdb in for holdouts?
1169 2013-07-17 18:23:34 <MC1984> forever?
1170 2013-07-17 18:23:37 <sipa> nah
1171 2013-07-17 18:23:45 <jgarzik> scroll up, see above :)
1172 2013-07-17 18:23:45 <sipa> we *really* want to get rid of bdb :)
1173 2013-07-17 18:23:50 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Easiest way would be to have a separate migration tool
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1175 2013-07-17 18:23:58 <jgarzik> initially: built-in migration
1176 2013-07-17 18:24:01 <sipa> 20:17:59 < sipa> we could move conversion code to a separate binary
1177 2013-07-17 18:24:02 <jgarzik> eventually: separate tool
1178 2013-07-17 18:24:14 <MC1984> what if someone finds a wallet from 25 years ago that they mined with for a laugh way back in 2009
1179 2013-07-17 18:24:17 <jgarzik> that gets BDB out of bitcoind
1180 2013-07-17 18:24:32 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|MC1984: That's what the separate tool is for
1181 2013-07-17 18:24:38 <jgarzik> MC1984, <jgarzik> would be fun to build a conversion tool that did not require linking with BDB lib itself </side tracked></masochist>
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1184 2013-07-17 18:24:59 <sipa> jgarzik: there is no "BDB file format"
1185 2013-07-17 18:25:20 <sipa> there is just "memory dump of BDB's version- and architecture-dependent data structures", afaik
1186 2013-07-17 18:25:37 <MC1984> its a bit like saying what if theres a 100btc wallet on an IDE (not even sata) drive that is rather hard to get to now because its 2055
1187 2013-07-17 18:26:15 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|would it be possible to make that happen in the other direction?
1188 2013-07-17 18:26:22 <jgarzik> sipa, true and not true?  they take pains to make sure that doesn't change across minor versions, and that databases can be made portable across architectures (if certain flags are set)
1189 2013-07-17 18:26:32 <gmaxwell> 11:13 < sipa> it's ridiculous that we really store every key 3 times now
1190 2013-07-17 18:26:33 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|(make a tool to bdb-ifu newer or converted wallets)
1191 2013-07-17 18:26:34 <jgarzik> sipa, so it's a doable task
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1193 2013-07-17 18:26:50 <gmaxwell> meh, what I wonder is how the wallet files somehow seem to be more like 50x larger than the key data they contain. :P
1194 2013-07-17 18:26:50 <sipa> jgarzik: yeah, i know, it's better than how i described it
1195 2013-07-17 18:26:52 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|s/ifu/ify/
1196 2013-07-17 18:27:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: correct horse staple battary transactions?
1197 2013-07-17 18:27:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, separate datastores into "wallet" and "wallet cache"?  :)
1198 2013-07-17 18:27:17 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: Transactions is part of it, no?
1199 2013-07-17 18:27:32 <jgarzik> Micha|iPhone, that's just a cache, a snapshot of the blockchain
1200 2013-07-17 18:27:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: even a transactionless wallet is pretty big.
1201 2013-07-17 18:27:40 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|hmm?
1202 2013-07-17 18:27:49 <sipa> jgarzik: please don't separate them
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1204 2013-07-17 18:27:51 <gmaxwell> (I dunno that it's actually 50x, but it's pretty big.)
1205 2013-07-17 18:27:58 <sipa> it's not a cache, it's your coins
1206 2013-07-17 18:28:07 <sipa> it can be reconstructed without monetary loss if confirmed
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1208 2013-07-17 18:29:31 <jgarzik> Just illustrating.  For most people it is nothing but a cache, duplicate data also found in the blockchain
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1211 2013-07-17 18:30:20 <jgarzik> (and no, I don't want rto separate the two)
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1213 2013-07-17 18:30:37 <jgarzik> Most people can survive the loss of everything-but-privkeys.
1214 2013-07-17 18:31:14 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, but i hate infrastructure that depends on "rescanning the chain is easy"
1215 2013-07-17 18:31:35 <sipa> in theory, every wallet should just 'see' every block in the chain since their birth exactly once
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1219 2013-07-17 18:34:05 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|"sipa: jgarzik: yes, but i hate infrastructure that depends on "rescanning the chain is easy"
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1237 2013-07-17 19:04:59 <grau> jgarzik: I went down that route
1238 2013-07-17 19:05:08 <grau> I have wallet that is only keys
1239 2013-07-17 19:05:27 <grau> And wallet with transaction cache only for heavvy user
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1257 2013-07-17 19:14:18 <grau> should not the priority be for bitcoind to get rid of the wallet altogether?
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1260 2013-07-17 19:15:56 <jgarzik> grau, Well currently it is the wallet with the most secure field experience to date, so dropping is unreasonable
1261 2013-07-17 19:16:02 <jgarzik> grau, but yes
1262 2013-07-17 19:16:19 <jgarzik> grau, sipa, I and others have talked about separating wallet/GUI from "blockchain engine"
1263 2013-07-17 19:16:28 <jgarzik> and permit people to run only the blockchain-engine portion
1264 2013-07-17 19:16:39 <grau> I would love that
1265 2013-07-17 19:17:48 <Luke-Jr> and everyone else in the bitcoin dev world for years now :P
1266 2013-07-17 19:18:18 <Luke-Jr> Amir and I had Spesmilo working ok, but Bitcoin-Qt was just so much better I abandoned it <.<
1267 2013-07-17 19:18:43 <Luke-Jr> although that had the wallet still on the server end
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1269 2013-07-17 19:19:27 * Luke-Jr ponders where it ideally would be
1270 2013-07-17 19:19:37 <grau> I actually use bitcoind ignoring its wallet as a preprocessor to my production nodes.
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1272 2013-07-17 19:19:46 <Luke-Jr> if it's part of the UI, even as a library, it precludes using multiple UIs
1273 2013-07-17 19:20:08 <jgarzik> grau, yes
1274 2013-07-17 19:20:17 <jgarzik> grau, I think bitcoind is best in its role as "border router"
1275 2013-07-17 19:20:46 <jgarzik> and currently it is what you want selecting transactions for a mining pool
1276 2013-07-17 19:21:00 <grau> jgarzik: seems like people who have to make living with bitcoin come to same conclusions.
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1278 2013-07-17 19:21:19 <jgarzik> grau, what does that mean?
1279 2013-07-17 19:21:24 * Luke-Jr would try Bitsofproof for template creation if it were possible <.<
1280 2013-07-17 19:21:46 <grau> it means that bitcoind wallet is not good for business use
1281 2013-07-17 19:21:59 <sipa> mostly RPC is not good for that
1282 2013-07-17 19:22:00 <grau> but it is needed to watch the network
1283 2013-07-17 19:22:13 <sipa> but yes, the wallet isn't designed for real business use
1284 2013-07-17 19:22:45 <grau> and it should better not be enhanced but we need a protocol between bitcoind and external wallet
1285 2013-07-17 19:22:51 <grau> what about a bus :) ?
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1287 2013-07-17 19:23:08 <sipa> we've talked about this before
1288 2013-07-17 19:23:13 <jgarzik> yes
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1290 2013-07-17 19:23:16 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I continue to get people having problems due to that outstanding bitcoinrpc bug :<
1291 2013-07-17 19:23:21 <sipa> i think bitcoind only needs to maintain mempool/blockchain
1292 2013-07-17 19:23:38 <Luke-Jr> grau: someone submitted a ZeroMQ pullreq, but abandoned maintaining it :/
1293 2013-07-17 19:24:12 <sipa> well, for small-scale wallets it can provide a nice service
1294 2013-07-17 19:24:26 <sipa> but for larger setups you want to do it separately entirely, i think
1295 2013-07-17 19:25:48 <grau> what about starting with defining a push protocol for events from bitcoind
1296 2013-07-17 19:25:55 <jgarzik> BitPay is building a JavaScript (node.js, server side) wallet platform.  That plays into this discussion.  Should have a working JavaScript SPV wallet by end of July.
1297 2013-07-17 19:26:01 <Luke-Jr> grau: that's what it was..
1298 2013-07-17 19:26:15 <jgarzik> (sadly, my C version was deprioritized)
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1300 2013-07-17 19:26:24 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc/pull/11
1301 2013-07-17 19:26:48 <jgarzik> grau, You should start with the app's needs
1302 2013-07-17 19:26:56 <jgarzik> grau, don't define the API first, then write the app
1303 2013-07-17 19:27:04 <grau> I do that
1304 2013-07-17 19:27:13 <grau> you will be surprised soon ...
1305 2013-07-17 19:27:47 <jgarzik> grau, zeromq was thought as the messenger.  luke-jr says it's abandoned, maybe I should pick it up.
1306 2013-07-17 19:28:20 <Luke-Jr> well, at least the guy seems to be ignoring rebase requests
1307 2013-07-17 19:28:21 <jgarzik> i.e. the event protocol
1308 2013-07-17 19:28:25 <Luke-Jr> maybe someone should try emailing him directly
1309 2013-07-17 19:28:34 <jgarzik> maybe I will do the rebase.  zeromq is good stuff.
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1402 2013-07-17 21:08:25 <gmaxwell> anyone know how to get tcmalloc to dump a fragmentation report?
1403 2013-07-17 21:09:15 <gmaxwell> the heap profiles its outputting are saying that bitcoin is using 205 MB, but the process is 460 MB rss, which seems rather extreme if its really fragmentation.
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1413 2013-07-17 21:15:40 <TD> gmaxwell: magic environment variables, iirc
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1429 2013-07-17 21:36:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: would you expect cacheCoins to have 1.7 million objects on just a boring running node?
1430 2013-07-17 21:37:57 <sipa> what is you dbcache size?
1431 2013-07-17 21:38:28 <sipa> actually, that shouldn't really matter
1432 2013-07-17 21:38:37 <gmaxwell> default, which should be 25 I think?
1433 2013-07-17 21:38:52 <sipa> outside of IBD it should flush after every block
1434 2013-07-17 21:39:03 <sipa> so no, that shoulds very high
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1436 2013-07-17 21:40:38 <gmaxwell> I can't figure out how to get a report on the real usage including fragmentation impact, so I thought I'd try looking at profiles of heap object counts. (rationale being that any fragmentation source would have a high object count)
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1438 2013-07-17 21:42:03 <sipa> wait, that 1.7 is active at a specific time
1439 2013-07-17 21:42:10 <sipa> or over the course of running for a whilr
1440 2013-07-17 21:42:21 <sipa> with many already freed
1441 2013-07-17 21:42:34 <gmaxwell> no, active at one time.
1442 2013-07-17 21:42:41 <gmaxwell> in use, not allocated-ever
1443 2013-07-17 21:44:03 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/profile.obj.ps.gz
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1508 2013-07-17 22:36:18 <LLckfan> Is there a way to stop Shockwave Flash from crashing in Chrome? I have this happen on two different computer(different os (XP and 7) and brands(Copax(HP) and Gateway))
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1518 2013-07-17 22:43:16 <Luke-Jr> LLckfan: totally off-topic here
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1547 2013-07-17 22:50:26 <LLckfan> Hello
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1550 2013-07-17 22:52:47 <turboroot> LLckfan: hallo
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1607 2013-07-17 23:40:42 <maaku> sipa: your otherwise wonderful ultraprune docs are throwing me for a loop
1608 2013-07-17 23:41:00 <maaku> '8bb85e' is not the varint encoding of height 203998
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1610 2013-07-17 23:42:18 <maaku> same goes for the compact amount in the same example (should be 'fd5802' not '8358')
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