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44 2013-07-18 01:11:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: I can't figure out why massif reports continued allocation in CCoinsViewCache from a verifydb that ran at startup.
45 2013-07-18 01:11:35 <gmaxwell> http://pastebin.com/i495pQa7 < this is from a snapshot of a node that had been running for some time.
46 2013-07-18 01:12:13 <gmaxwell> The view that VerifyDB is using should have fallen out of scope once the VerifyDB run finished.
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60 2013-07-18 01:18:09 <razorfishsl> Are there any tools for writing to the bitcoin chain, I.E assembling scripts?, there is something I want to test on testnet
61 2013-07-18 01:18:15 ericmuyser has joined
62 2013-07-18 01:18:34 <Luke-Jr> razorfishsl: I believe jgarzik was working on something ; check ML archives
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64 2013-07-18 01:23:43 <BCB> luke-jr you see the SD news
65 2013-07-18 01:27:11 <Luke-Jr> no
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132 2013-07-18 04:35:11 <imton> guys gettxout
133 2013-07-18 04:35:21 <imton> is only for unspent outputs?
134 2013-07-18 04:39:55 <LLckfan> Hello
135 2013-07-18 04:40:11 <imton> hi
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213 2013-07-18 07:07:52 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: I don't think the current stuff is holding up the merge
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248 2013-07-18 08:09:39 alexwaters has joined
249 2013-07-18 08:13:07 <warren> gmaxwell: hmm, have you looked into the type of deterministic keys is trezor?
250 2013-07-18 08:13:39 ielo has joined
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252 2013-07-18 08:17:07 <lianj> getrawtransaction also looks into the memorypool, right?
253 2013-07-18 08:18:30 <Scrat> lianj: of course
254 2013-07-18 08:19:48 <sipa> lianj: yes, but not in the wallet
255 2013-07-18 08:20:05 <sipa> warren: i thoiught they'd use bip32?
256 2013-07-18 08:20:10 <sipa> maybe not only
257 2013-07-18 08:22:20 <warren> Is the concept of type 1 or type 2 obsolete now?
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259 2013-07-18 08:28:40 <lianj> thanks guys
260 2013-07-18 08:29:00 <sipa> warren: no, bip32 does both
261 2013-07-18 08:29:08 <warren> ah
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265 2013-07-18 08:39:18 <TD> sipa: question .... i thought i understood ecdsa but apparently not
266 2013-07-18 08:39:32 <TD> sipa: yesterday i discovered that signatures produced by an uncompressed key don't seem to validate against a compressed key
267 2013-07-18 08:39:40 <TD> is that expected or indicative of some other screwup in my code?
268 2013-07-18 08:39:48 <TD> i thought they were equivalent
269 2013-07-18 08:40:06 <TD> (though that code was kind of broken at the time so it's possible it was being misparsed, or whatever)
270 2013-07-18 08:43:20 <warren> is that related to uncompressed address != compressed address?
271 2013-07-18 08:43:25 <warren> same privkey
272 2013-07-18 08:45:03 _ingsoc has joined
273 2013-07-18 08:46:00 <_ingsoc> Is there any way I can ask if someone wants to get paid to work on Bitcoin code without getting laughed out of the room?
274 2013-07-18 08:50:56 <TD> warren: no. addresses weren't involved here.
275 2013-07-18 08:51:07 gjj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
276 2013-07-18 08:51:13 <TD> _ingsoc: why would people laugh at that? if you're recruiting the forums might work better though
277 2013-07-18 08:51:41 <_ingsoc> I don't know. People get funny about these things.
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279 2013-07-18 08:52:26 <sipa> TD: the signatures should be interchangeable
280 2013-07-18 08:52:33 <TD> yeah. that's what i thought.
281 2013-07-18 08:52:39 <TD> there must have been some other issue
282 2013-07-18 08:52:51 <sipa> TD: it's just the encoding of the public key that is different, the EC point is the same
283 2013-07-18 08:52:56 <TD> yeah
284 2013-07-18 08:53:02 <sipa> TD: or are you talking about message signatures?
285 2013-07-18 08:53:07 <TD> no
286 2013-07-18 08:53:09 <TD> tx sigs
287 2013-07-18 08:53:13 <TD> must have been some other bug.
288 2013-07-18 08:53:19 <sipa> in that case it shouldn't matter
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310 2013-07-18 09:39:38 <t7> is an elliptic curve over a binary field the same thing as over a prime field ?
311 2013-07-18 09:39:48 Graet is now known as Graet^^
312 2013-07-18 09:40:14 Graet^^ is now known as Graet^
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314 2013-07-18 09:44:26 <TD> same thing in what way? obviously they're not exactly the same thing
315 2013-07-18 09:45:32 <t7> is it just an implementation thing?
316 2013-07-18 09:45:39 <t7> do they use the same keys ?
317 2013-07-18 09:50:22 CheckDavid has joined
318 2013-07-18 09:50:33 <sipa> no
319 2013-07-18 09:50:40 <sipa> keys are curve specific
320 2013-07-18 09:51:03 <sipa> and if the field is different, the curve certainly is
321 2013-07-18 09:51:25 <alexwaters> reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format. is there a doc on how bitcoinQT generates the initial private key? i am going to just do a 2xsha256 of a string, but I'm wondering if there is something "better"
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323 2013-07-18 09:54:03 <sipa> it just generates a random 32-byte sequence
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327 2013-07-18 09:57:03 <jchp> alexwaters: you probably don't want to generate your keys using the same algorithm which has a global network trying to find collisions for (i believe they are called "bitcoin miners")
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329 2013-07-18 09:57:57 <alexwaters> jchp: how should I generate them if I want to use a deterministic seed?
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331 2013-07-18 09:58:13 <jchp> use sha-512 or whatever it doesn't matter just don't use two rounds of sha-256
332 2013-07-18 09:58:22 <alexwaters> ok cool
333 2013-07-18 09:59:17 <alexwaters> sipa: thank you
334 2013-07-18 09:59:28 <sipa> alexwaters: read BIP32
335 2013-07-18 09:59:56 <alexwaters> oh snap :)
336 2013-07-18 09:59:57 <TD> alexwaters: seeds are meant to be random data
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338 2013-07-18 10:01:01 <sipa> they're mostly meant to be secret
339 2013-07-18 10:01:15 <sipa> being non-random makes that harder to guarantee
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343 2013-07-18 10:03:13 <matjeh> alexwaters: i've used sha256(dictionary_word) as a private key, sent some BTC to the corresponding address, to see how fast it would be stolen. it took 3 seconds.
344 2013-07-18 10:03:36 <matjeh> so be careful
345 2013-07-18 10:04:09 <coingenuity> matjeh: lol
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350 2013-07-18 10:06:51 <alexwaters> good to know. is a sha512(random_base64_21char_passphrase) as a private key decent?
351 2013-07-18 10:07:28 <matjeh> i capitalised 50% of the letters and added a 3 digit number on the end, and did the same. and its still there after a month
352 2013-07-18 10:07:36 <matjeh> so probably
353 2013-07-18 10:07:40 <sipa> alexwaters: define 'random'
354 2013-07-18 10:07:41 <matjeh> for a while anyway
355 2013-07-18 10:07:45 <matjeh> ;)
356 2013-07-18 10:08:22 <alexwaters> sipa: generated by keypass or 1password - so not perfectly random
357 2013-07-18 10:08:25 <sipa> if you mean "uniformly random", sure, but just random_32_byte_sequence is even better
358 2013-07-18 10:09:00 nomailing has joined
359 2013-07-18 10:09:28 <sipa> or can you really remember a 21 character randomly generated passphrase?
360 2013-07-18 10:09:35 <matjeh> just make sure its < 2^256 - 2^32 - 2^9 - 2^8 ... i forget the rest of the prime
361 2013-07-18 10:10:18 <alexwaters> sipa: i definitely cannot. i am useless if they ever waterboard me for my passwords
362 2013-07-18 10:10:29 kyledrake has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
363 2013-07-18 10:10:30 <sipa> alexwaters: so you have to store it somewhere anyway
364 2013-07-18 10:10:41 <sipa> alexwaters: so store just the private key itself
365 2013-07-18 10:11:31 <alexwaters> it's more of a UX thing. I want to collect a username and a password from users and generate pub/priv for them. the password requirements are very strict though
366 2013-07-18 10:11:40 <sipa> DO NOT
367 2013-07-18 10:11:43 <sipa> PLEASE
368 2013-07-18 10:11:49 <alexwaters> yikes
369 2013-07-18 10:12:13 <alexwaters> due to security of the priv key storage? or lack of entropy?
370 2013-07-18 10:12:31 <sipa> due to people being very bad at judging randomness
371 2013-07-18 10:12:41 <sipa> and you can have some rules that prevent the worst offenders
372 2013-07-18 10:12:46 <sipa> but people will find ways around it
373 2013-07-18 10:13:11 <sipa> i don't consider myself capable of coming up with a passphrase that is strong enough to store money IN
374 2013-07-18 10:13:35 <alexwaters> what if I make a random salt to keep them from being bad?
375 2013-07-18 10:13:43 <sipa> then what's the point?
376 2013-07-18 10:13:56 <sipa> it will be unrememberable if it is secure
377 2013-07-18 10:14:23 btcera has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
378 2013-07-18 10:14:32 <sipa> (that's not entirely true, if you have 128 bits of true entropy it's fine)
379 2013-07-18 10:14:45 <sipa> but that still means something inconveniently large
380 2013-07-18 10:14:52 ThomasV has joined
381 2013-07-18 10:14:52 <coingenuity> alexwaters: why not just use the seed of username/password to generate enough entropy to create private keys from
382 2013-07-18 10:15:19 <sipa> ...
383 2013-07-18 10:15:19 <alexwaters> this is more of a proof of concept, which will be o/s and improved upon i'm sure. it's purely experimental - i'm not actually standing up any servers for a long while of peer review
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385 2013-07-18 10:16:06 <coingenuity> i.e. hash usernames against passwords via some one-way algo to give you enough randomness that the bitcoin privkey isnt easily obtainable via dictionary bruting
386 2013-07-18 10:16:45 <sipa> i don't see how you're adding any entropy?
387 2013-07-18 10:17:10 <alexwaters> concatinating the username makes is less rainbow-attackable
388 2013-07-18 10:17:27 <alexwaters> but still a clever targeted attack has no added entropy from that
389 2013-07-18 10:17:34 i2pRelay has joined
390 2013-07-18 10:17:53 <sipa> alexwaters: ever saw https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102349.0 ?
391 2013-07-18 10:18:29 <alexwaters> negative, it looks like I have a great deal of reading to do
392 2013-07-18 10:18:49 <sipa> i don't think it's used anywhere, but i still think it's a pretty neat idea :)
393 2013-07-18 10:18:51 Guest12547 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
394 2013-07-18 10:18:53 <coingenuity> sipa: i mean, you hash "usernamepassword" via whirlpool and it yeilds d88b382a0af2ff2a8d1d419d4be2bc70b60e43661089bbeda382f3e6cfe5375b75a3065ad2d82c1c48869fb49838d5978b967d5d4636cb2ae8398d56bc60e426, you can grab some bytes of that to generate a privkey seed
395 2013-07-18 10:19:06 <alexwaters> i think once this is put out there, it will make more sense - and i'm not actually jeopardizing any users. it's just a play thing for a while
396 2013-07-18 10:19:18 <sipa> coingenuity: you understand the concept of "entropy" ?
397 2013-07-18 10:19:47 <coingenuity> sipa: yeah, i'm saying that adding another
398 2013-07-18 10:19:56 <sipa> but you're not adding entropy at all
399 2013-07-18 10:19:58 <coingenuity> 'unknown' step to the mix increases randomness
400 2013-07-18 10:20:08 <sipa> how is the step unknown?
401 2013-07-18 10:20:13 <sipa> does it use a random source?
402 2013-07-18 10:20:21 <sipa> if it does, it's useless as a brainwallet
403 2013-07-18 10:20:28 <sipa> if it doesn't, it doesn't add entropy
404 2013-07-18 10:20:30 <coingenuity> because nobody on the network, aside from alexwaters, would know the steps that yeild the privkey seed
405 2013-07-18 10:20:34 adam3us has joined
406 2013-07-18 10:20:43 <sipa> that's just security through obscurity
407 2013-07-18 10:21:00 <sipa> you can't assume people don't know your algorithm
408 2013-07-18 10:21:02 <coingenuity> i know, bad way to go about it, but it provides a more random seed from his desired starting inputs
409 2013-07-18 10:21:11 <sipa> no, it is not "more random"
410 2013-07-18 10:21:11 QQCrypt has joined
411 2013-07-18 10:21:25 <sipa> it is exactly as random as the space of usernames and passwords
412 2013-07-18 10:21:33 <sipa> it may be harder to guess
413 2013-07-18 10:21:34 <alexwaters> sipa: alright to PM?
414 2013-07-18 10:21:36 <sipa> yes
415 2013-07-18 10:21:44 <sipa> but it's not more secure
416 2013-07-18 10:21:52 QQCrypt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
417 2013-07-18 10:22:15 <coingenuity> sipa: yes, nothing is more secure than 100% random, but that's not quite his goal
418 2013-07-18 10:22:29 QuantumQrack has joined
419 2013-07-18 10:22:34 <SomeoneWeird> pfft 100% random
420 2013-07-18 10:22:39 <lianj> SomeoneWeird: haha yea
421 2013-07-18 10:22:41 <QuantumQrack> Anybody know which file to back up if you are using multibit?
422 2013-07-18 10:22:53 <coingenuity> it's just degrees of safeness that we're really talking about, in terms of generating privkey seeds from 'known' data
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424 2013-07-18 10:23:13 <sipa> coingenuity: there are much better ways to do that than using a secret algorithm
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429 2013-07-18 10:25:01 <Scrat> I use Pi digits for my privkeys
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440 2013-07-18 10:35:44 <alexwaters> Scrat: I want to use my cat's brainwave patterns
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445 2013-07-18 10:50:43 <lianj> is sendrawtransaction returning -22 if its already in memorypool fixed in .3 now?
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455 2013-07-18 11:09:44 <jouke> In my debug log I see: "Misbehaving 1 address from <ip> (0->0)" Does anyone know what that means?
456 2013-07-18 11:10:35 <sipa> just something invalid was detected, but which doesn't trigger the DoS score to go up
457 2013-07-18 11:10:46 <sipa> the log message could be clearer
458 2013-07-18 11:10:51 kyledrake has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
459 2013-07-18 11:13:02 <jouke> What kind of behaviour could trigger such a thing?
460 2013-07-18 11:13:18 <sipa> look at the line before :)
461 2013-07-18 11:18:50 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: >Elric brothers
462 2013-07-18 11:18:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: :3
463 2013-07-18 11:19:06 pecket has joined
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465 2013-07-18 11:20:32 <t7> i roll my dice 3 times to get 3 bytes of randomness
466 2013-07-18 11:20:37 <t7> 4 times*
467 2013-07-18 11:21:36 <t7> hang on the sum of 2 dice is more likely to be 6/7 than other values ...
468 2013-07-18 11:21:41 <t7> right?
469 2013-07-18 11:21:54 <matjeh> they'd have to be 16-sided to fill the entropy needed, then
470 2013-07-18 11:22:22 <t7> i can flip a coin for each bit
471 2013-07-18 11:22:37 <matjeh> wtf am i talking about, 256-sided
472 2013-07-18 11:22:57 <t7> i think 16 is ok, because you can append the nibbles
473 2013-07-18 11:23:05 <t7> rather than addition and changing base
474 2013-07-18 11:23:20 <matjeh> you'd have to roll a 6-sided die 10 times
475 2013-07-18 11:23:46 <matjeh> for 3 bytes
476 2013-07-18 11:24:12 <matjeh> or 6 dices once. parallel computation.
477 2013-07-18 11:24:30 <sipa> t7: roll two dice, compute dice_1+dice_2*6-7
478 2013-07-18 11:24:38 <sipa> t7: if result is >= 32, repeat
479 2013-07-18 11:24:43 <sipa> if not, you have 5 bits of randomness
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502 2013-07-18 12:07:59 <t7> are you sure...
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537 2013-07-18 13:13:14 <sipa> t7: yes
538 2013-07-18 13:13:39 <t7> oh i had order of operations wrong
539 2013-07-18 13:13:45 <t7> thats makes sense
540 2013-07-18 13:16:47 <t7> sipa is a maths wizard
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556 2013-07-18 13:38:40 <helo> i thought he's the kind of wizard that morphs into turtles, rabbits, caterpillars, walruses, voles, pox, etc
557 2013-07-18 13:41:04 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
558 2013-07-18 13:42:23 alexwaters has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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560 2013-07-18 13:48:11 <t7> he maths so much math he should be called matth-ew
561 2013-07-18 13:48:41 <sipa> you must be talking about BlueMatt
562 2013-07-18 13:49:00 <BlueMatt> heh, sadly I dont maths that much
563 2013-07-18 13:50:50 <bmcgee> hey guys i'm having difficulties understanding the hex representations for target. Admittedly it seems my hex knowledge has run out. In these 2 examples 0x1b0404cb, 0x1d00ffff could someone explain the significance of the 0x1b and 0x1d portions
564 2013-07-18 13:51:15 GordonG3kko has joined
565 2013-07-18 13:52:10 <t7> i think its a bespoke encoding for an into
566 2013-07-18 13:52:11 <t7> int*
567 2013-07-18 13:52:17 <t7> its on the wiki i think
568 2013-07-18 13:52:25 <bmcgee> yeah im looking through the wiki
569 2013-07-18 13:52:41 <bmcgee> when unpacking the target the 1d and 1b portions are significant in the multiplier
570 2013-07-18 13:53:11 rdponticelli has joined
571 2013-07-18 13:54:39 <t7> last_three_bytes * 2**(8*(firstbyte - 3))
572 2013-07-18 13:54:44 <t7> it looks like
573 2013-07-18 13:55:33 <bmcgee> yup just want to be sure, in case i'm doing something automagical
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615 2013-07-18 15:04:02 <xavier23> Anybody know how big (in bytes) an individual transaction is on average? And also, is there a limit on the size?
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624 2013-07-18 15:26:19 <xavier23> If anybody's interested.. the following might be a good approximation: txin,txout: 60 bytes + 139 bytes (scriptSig) + 25 (pk_script)
625 2013-07-18 15:28:06 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
626 2013-07-18 15:29:05 <xavier23> Oh wow. Actually it seems a little more complicated than that
627 2013-07-18 15:29:24 <xavier23> Just talking to myself here⦠lol
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632 2013-07-18 15:33:34 <sipa> xavier23: look at a random block?
633 2013-07-18 15:33:35 <sipa> http://blockchain.info/block-index/399685/000000000000009343cac50275e4d75c390f2969cf5c3185974265d665e03a47
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635 2013-07-18 15:34:07 <sipa> 161, 258, 258, 376, 257, 818, 259, 225, 966, 226, 227, 257, 293, ...
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637 2013-07-18 15:35:57 <sipa> xavier23: having just a single txin and a single txout is very rare
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641 2013-07-18 15:40:18 <xavier23> sipa: Ah thanks. I didn't realize they have `size` on blockchain.info.
642 2013-07-18 15:42:54 fluxbox_ has joined
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650 2013-07-18 16:04:47 <xavier23> After a series of calculations, I estimate avg tx size: 0.3768kb. PM me if you 'd like an explanation... lol
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653 2013-07-18 16:07:01 <sipa> xavier23: more common, that value would be expressed as '376.8 bytes'
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655 2013-07-18 16:08:37 <gmaxwell> calculations? if you're talking about the average presumably you just went and measured the recent blocks?
656 2013-07-18 16:08:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I get 48.2384 bytes :p
657 2013-07-18 16:09:28 StunpenderRT has joined
658 2013-07-18 16:09:56 <xavier23> gmaxwell: Yes, I measured the one given by sipa
659 2013-07-18 16:10:47 <xavier23> Block Size / N Tx
660 2013-07-18 16:11:41 <xavier23> Then I made some adjustments
661 2013-07-18 16:14:23 <sipa> "add 3, subtract cosine of the phase of the moon, multiply by zero, add the square root of the block size"
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669 2013-07-18 16:25:25 <xavier23> sipa: Lol
670 2013-07-18 16:25:36 <xavier23> Something like that⦠;)
671 2013-07-18 16:26:25 <xavier23> A believe the phrase is: there's lies, damn lies and then there's statistics
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740 2013-07-18 17:40:13 <jedunnigan> ~ how large is the testnet blockchain atm?
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824 2013-07-18 19:22:22 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: any idea why the jenkins server got reset?
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831 2013-07-18 19:24:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: needed to reboot for the kernel rootkit to take effect.
832 2013-07-18 19:24:13 <BlueMatt> ahhhhhh
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839 2013-07-18 19:26:37 <BlueMatt> (if anyone was wondering why pull-tester died 7 days ago... 21:26:22 up 7 days, 19:29, 1 user, load average: 0.55, 0.16, 0.06 )
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974 2013-07-18 22:07:41 <sipa> ;;nethash
975 2013-07-18 22:07:42 <gribble> 223553.981326
976 2013-07-18 22:08:00 <sipa> ;;calc [nethash]*0.015/24
977 2013-07-18 22:08:00 <gribble> 139.721238329
978 2013-07-18 22:08:09 <sipa> crap
979 2013-07-18 22:08:40 <sipa> the network hashing rate now grows more _per hour_ then it was in total when i mined my first block...
980 2013-07-18 22:08:43 alexwaters has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
981 2013-07-18 22:08:59 <sipa> *than
982 2013-07-18 22:10:39 <nsh> them cycles...
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1002 2013-07-18 22:36:22 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: jenkins server reset a few days ago? Scheduled hardware maintenance, I think
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