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 231 2013-07-19 08:26:14 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: didnt I ask you to stop shilling for BFL?
 232 2013-07-19 08:27:30 <gmaxwell> dude you don't get to claim BFL hasn't shipped a product when bunches of people in our channels whom I know and trust tell me they've recieved them.
 233 2013-07-19 08:27:37 paraipan has joined
 234 2013-07-19 08:27:50 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: then wheres the proof
 235 2013-07-19 08:28:22 <Diablo-D3> they've shipped to a few high profile forum users, and have not even put a dent in their several thousand unit obligation.
 236 2013-07-19 08:29:06 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 237 2013-07-19 08:29:22 <Diablo-D3> at this rate, by the time they finish that, 65nm will be unprofitable
 238 2013-07-19 08:29:28 <Diablo-D3> (ie, over the next two years)
 239 2013-07-19 08:29:39 <Diablo-D3> thats pretty scammy to me, gmaxwell
 240 2013-07-19 08:31:10 Vinnie_win has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 241 2013-07-19 08:31:10 OldEnK has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 242 2013-07-19 08:31:51 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: Do you realize the position they are in? They can't outsource assembly of the units, because they'll get stolen, yet they also can't just buy a bunch more incredibly expensive PCB reflow gear, because that'll make them bankrupt when this temporary surge in demand goes back down.
 243 2013-07-19 08:32:01 <petertodd> This is why all the ASIC mfgs are trying to sell raw chips.
 244 2013-07-19 08:32:10 <Diablo-D3> "they'll get stolen"
 245 2013-07-19 08:32:10 <Diablo-D3> lol.
 246 2013-07-19 08:32:26 <gmaxwell> you laugh, some crazy crap has been going on for these companies.
 247 2013-07-19 08:32:36 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: asicminer is having no trouble meeting the demand
 248 2013-07-19 08:32:53 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 249 2013-07-19 08:33:04 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: how many orders does asicminer have relative to BFL?
 250 2013-07-19 08:33:25 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: I dont know
 251 2013-07-19 08:33:32 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: its better to compare GH
 252 2013-07-19 08:33:37 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: go find out
 253 2013-07-19 08:33:39 <gmaxwell> meenting _demand_ lol. no no, meeting their promises thats another comment entirely.
 254 2013-07-19 08:33:47 <gmaxwell> meeting*
 255 2013-07-19 08:34:32 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: asicminer does not sell directly to customers
 256 2013-07-19 08:34:38 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: they sell to resellers in target countries
 257 2013-07-19 08:35:52 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: so you're saying you probably don't have a clue what the stats are
 258 2013-07-19 08:36:02 <MC1984> lol you dont know how they do business in china
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 261 2013-07-19 08:37:01 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: I dont know what the waiting orders are, no, but its a lot smaller than BFL's
 262 2013-07-19 08:37:39 <MC1984> asicminers operation is pretty vertically integrated no
 263 2013-07-19 08:37:51 <MC1984> or whatever the business speak is
 264 2013-07-19 08:37:55 <MC1984> + they live there
 265 2013-07-19 08:38:07 justusranvier has joined
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 267 2013-07-19 08:38:39 <warren> Diablo-D3: to be fair, ASICMiner is charging BTC denominated prices far in excess of potential ROI
 268 2013-07-19 08:38:49 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: Right, so ASICMINER has a small problem on their hands, and we should hate on BFL because their much bigger problem is proving tough to fix.
 269 2013-07-19 08:38:58 <warren> Diablo-D3: so it's easy to meet demand when your only buyers by definition are those incapable of math
 270 2013-07-19 08:38:59 <petertodd> Meh, trolling won't get your units any quicker.
 271 2013-07-19 08:39:12 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: asicminer has a small problem?
 272 2013-07-19 08:39:13 <Diablo-D3> dude
 273 2013-07-19 08:39:17 <Diablo-D3> I wish I had their problem
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 276 2013-07-19 08:39:32 <warren> ASICMiner has an excellent business.
 277 2013-07-19 08:39:37 <Diablo-D3> being rich is a great problem to have
 278 2013-07-19 08:39:44 <MC1984> i said before, they should have never tried to sell working units
 279 2013-07-19 08:39:50 <warren> yeah, congrats on buying those shares
 280 2013-07-19 08:39:56 <MC1984> not for first batch any way
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 282 2013-07-19 08:40:07 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: they never sold first batch units
 283 2013-07-19 08:40:19 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: those were the giant blade prototypes they decided not to continue using
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 285 2013-07-19 08:40:36 <Diablo-D3> I mean, not continue producing
 286 2013-07-19 08:40:36 <MC1984> the inside of lukes big box unit looked like shit any way
 287 2013-07-19 08:40:38 <Diablo-D3> they're still using them
 288 2013-07-19 08:40:43 <MC1984> duct tape and hot glue
 289 2013-07-19 08:41:17 <Diablo-D3> but I do know asicminer has sold several thousand USB sticks and over a hundred blades
 290 2013-07-19 08:41:26 <MC1984> and a nexus 7 stuck in the front for some reason toplel
 291 2013-07-19 08:41:27 <Diablo-D3> so they're in the lead for GH delivered
 292 2013-07-19 08:41:56 <MC1984> they bankrolled themselvs out the ass with the hosted mining op
 293 2013-07-19 08:42:05 <MC1984> selling sticks and blades is basically a hobby for them
 294 2013-07-19 08:42:35 <MC1984> one they never wanted to do in the first place i gather
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 296 2013-07-19 08:42:52 <Diablo-D3> MC1984: not really
 297 2013-07-19 08:43:01 <Diablo-D3> they've made more money selling the asics than using them
 298 2013-07-19 08:43:21 <MC1984> sure have and it mostly goes back into the farm i think
 299 2013-07-19 08:43:44 <Diablo-D3> no
 300 2013-07-19 08:43:44 <MC1984> which fucks the earning potential of the stuff they just sold you
 301 2013-07-19 08:43:49 <Diablo-D3> they havent been growing the farm
 302 2013-07-19 08:43:54 <Diablo-D3> its still at 15th iirc
 303 2013-07-19 08:44:02 <warren> MC1984: Diablo-D3 has a conflict of interest in defending Asicminer, but I have to agree with him on this one.  It makes no sense to mine yourself when selling shovels is never unprofitable.
 304 2013-07-19 08:44:21 <MC1984> they dont mine themselves. pople pay them to mine
 305 2013-07-19 08:44:28 <Diablo-D3> warren: I dont have a conflict of interest because, frankly, I dont care what this channel thinks
 306 2013-07-19 08:44:34 <MC1984> then they pay some dividends and etc
 307 2013-07-19 08:44:39 <Diablo-D3> warren: also, I have also suggested avalon
 308 2013-07-19 08:44:52 <Diablo-D3> avalon has proven themselves by ACTUALLY SHIPPING A LARGE NUMBER OF UNITS
 309 2013-07-19 08:45:12 <Graet> after mining on them for a while
 310 2013-07-19 08:45:16 <MC1984> large number?
 311 2013-07-19 08:45:24 <Diablo-D3> 300+300+600
 312 2013-07-19 08:45:27 <warren> Diablo-D3: no one is denying that BFL has had ... issues.
 313 2013-07-19 08:45:33 <MC1984> couple of hundred of those 60g boxes
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 316 2013-07-19 08:46:26 <Diablo-D3> actually
 317 2013-07-19 08:46:29 <Diablo-D3> has batch 3 shipped?
 318 2013-07-19 08:46:37 <Diablo-D3> because then it'd just be 300+300
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 325 2013-07-19 09:00:49 <Graet> no batch3 yet
 326 2013-07-19 09:01:08 <Diablo-D3> then its just 600 * 68 gh
 327 2013-07-19 09:01:10 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 600 * 68
 328 2013-07-19 09:01:10 <gribble> 40800
 329 2013-07-19 09:01:21 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 40800 / 12
 330 2013-07-19 09:01:21 <gribble> 3400
 331 2013-07-19 09:01:28 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 40800 / 333
 332 2013-07-19 09:01:28 <gribble> 122.522522523
 333 2013-07-19 09:01:31 <Diablo-D3> er
 334 2013-07-19 09:01:40 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 40800 / 0.333
 335 2013-07-19 09:01:40 <gribble> 122522.522523
 336 2013-07-19 09:02:04 <Diablo-D3> hrm, I think avalon and asicminer might actually be tied for GH shipped
 337 2013-07-19 09:05:46 adam3us has joined
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 339 2013-07-19 09:08:03 <Graet> with conmans firmware avalons are doing 80Gh
 340 2013-07-19 09:08:29 <Diablo-D3> Graet: neat
 341 2013-07-19 09:08:31 random_cat has joined
 342 2013-07-19 09:08:58 <Graet> :)
 343 2013-07-19 09:09:45 <warren> 80!? wow
 344 2013-07-19 09:11:02 <Diablo-D3> Ive requested the number of blades and sticks shipped
 345 2013-07-19 09:11:08 <Diablo-D3> but avalon might actually be in the lead for gh shipped
 346 2013-07-19 09:12:47 jeewee has joined
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 350 2013-07-19 09:32:35 <gjs278> I have an avalon
 351 2013-07-19 09:32:37 <gjs278> it owns
 352 2013-07-19 09:33:50 <gjs278> I would gladly buy more asics but I can't find anything to buy that I trust yet
 353 2013-07-19 09:36:45 <gjs278> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258341.0
 354 2013-07-19 09:36:47 <gjs278> lol
 355 2013-07-19 09:36:50 <gjs278> a company promising not to ship
 356 2013-07-19 09:36:58 <gjs278> they don't have to do that, it's assumed they will never ship
 357 2013-07-19 09:39:26 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: just wait until asicminer ships 28nm
 358 2013-07-19 09:41:17 <gjs278> what are they selling now, just those usb sticks or do they have an asic store beyond that?
 359 2013-07-19 09:42:00 <Diablo-D3> they sell blades too
 360 2013-07-19 09:42:03 <Diablo-D3> but in smaller numbers
 361 2013-07-19 09:42:15 <Diablo-D3> they're both the same 130nm chips though
 362 2013-07-19 09:42:15 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ahh, ok
 363 2013-07-19 09:44:36 swulf-- has joined
 364 2013-07-19 09:45:42 <TD> gavinandresen is awake?
 365 2013-07-19 09:46:01 <BlueMatt> no, but I was responding to a message from hours ago
 366 2013-07-19 09:46:04 <Diablo-D3> lol.
 367 2013-07-19 09:46:14 <TD> doh
 368 2013-07-19 09:46:18 <TD> well it's evening time in oz
 369 2013-07-19 09:46:20 swulf--2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 370 2013-07-19 09:49:20 <sipa> they're always ahead of ys
 371 2013-07-19 09:49:29 <sipa> that's unacceptable!
 372 2013-07-19 09:49:32 c0rw1n has joined
 373 2013-07-19 09:49:54 <Diablo-D3> well
 374 2013-07-19 09:49:59 <Diablo-D3> its the australium
 375 2013-07-19 09:50:09 <fanquake> 5:50pm west coast and 7:50pm east coast atm
 376 2013-07-19 09:50:17 <Diablo-D3> makes guys good looking, muscly, gives them mustaches, and also warps time
 377 2013-07-19 09:52:26 Supa has joined
 378 2013-07-19 09:52:33 <Supa> Hi there
 379 2013-07-19 09:54:12 <fanquake> Diablo-D3 moustaches are only for november :p
 380 2013-07-19 09:54:34 <Diablo-D3> fanquake: real men wear them all year round.
 381 2013-07-19 09:54:42 <Graet> ^^
 382 2013-07-19 09:54:49 <Supa> real men's mustaches a re beards
 383 2013-07-19 09:55:06 <Diablo-D3> Supa: well
 384 2013-07-19 09:55:12 CodesInChaos_ has joined
 385 2013-07-19 09:55:13 <Diablo-D3> I think my beard got out of hand
 386 2013-07-19 09:55:24 <Diablo-D3> Im bordering on RMS proportions
 387 2013-07-19 09:55:28 <fanquake> Diablo-D3 I guess I'm just not manly enough then ahah.
 388 2013-07-19 09:55:47 <Supa> wouldn't doubt it lots of testosterone filled rage banning all my alts on Bitcoin Talk xD
 389 2013-07-19 09:58:05 <TD> "I just realized that right now, the hash rate increases more per hour than it was in total in November 2010, when I first mined..."   --sipa
 390 2013-07-19 09:58:05 <TD> lol
 391 2013-07-19 09:58:14 <Diablo-D3> that
 392 2013-07-19 09:58:14 <Diablo-D3> what
 393 2013-07-19 09:58:20 <Diablo-D3> what.
 394 2013-07-19 09:58:21 <BlueMatt> finally
 395 2013-07-19 09:58:25 <Diablo-D3> that
 396 2013-07-19 09:58:28 <Diablo-D3> thats impossible
 397 2013-07-19 09:58:45 <Diablo-D3> thats improbable
 398 2013-07-19 09:58:48 * Diablo-D3 gets a calculator
 399 2013-07-19 09:58:59 <TD> i remember talking about the possibility of large GPU farms with satoshi in 2009 as a far off, barely imaginable possibility that might be commonplace when we were both old men
 400 2013-07-19 09:59:00 <TD> haha
 401 2013-07-19 09:59:01 <Diablo-D3> I think he might be right =/
 402 2013-07-19 09:59:09 <Diablo-D3> TD: dude
 403 2013-07-19 09:59:19 <Diablo-D3> I remember saying someone should go start manufacturing ASICs
 404 2013-07-19 09:59:20 <Diablo-D3> and everyone was like
 405 2013-07-19 09:59:25 <Diablo-D3> wtf is an ASIC, do we look chinese to you
 406 2013-07-19 09:59:28 <BlueMatt> (except ArtForz)
 407 2013-07-19 09:59:28 <TD> and now there are ASIC farms. perhaps we'll see datacenters of ASICs being built next to wind farms not so long from now
 408 2013-07-19 09:59:36 <TD> yeah. artforz was crazy
 409 2013-07-19 09:59:36 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: I miss him
 410 2013-07-19 09:59:37 <gjs278> is artforz dead
 411 2013-07-19 09:59:43 <Diablo-D3> he was fucking awesome
 412 2013-07-19 09:59:46 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: no
 413 2013-07-19 09:59:50 <BlueMatt> gjs278: no, he contributes to one of the altcoins or something
 414 2013-07-19 09:59:52 <BlueMatt> or...somewhere
 415 2013-07-19 09:59:59 <BlueMatt> I know I once found him lurking somewhere
 416 2013-07-19 10:00:04 <Diablo-D3> he retired to his private Caribbean island
 417 2013-07-19 10:00:17 <BlueMatt> right next to satoshi
 418 2013-07-19 10:00:44 <Supa> my boss should his his BFL Supercomputer soon
 419 2013-07-19 10:00:47 <gjs278> he spends all day in the btc-e chat telling people to pump and dump china coin under fake usernames
 420 2013-07-19 10:01:04 <Supa> he traded in his 250 BFL Singles
 421 2013-07-19 10:01:06 <Diablo-D3> Supa: soon != 2 years
 422 2013-07-19 10:01:12 <Supa> ya
 423 2013-07-19 10:01:21 <Supa> lucky bastard has a batch 1 avalon though
 424 2013-07-19 10:01:26 <Diablo-D3> heh fuck him
 425 2013-07-19 10:01:38 <Supa> no shit
 426 2013-07-19 10:01:47 <Supa> talked to him about Primecoin
 427 2013-07-19 10:01:52 <Supa> man was that a bad idea
 428 2013-07-19 10:02:11 <Supa> has this really pissed off look on his face
 429 2013-07-19 10:02:14 * Diablo-D3 does not see the point of an altcoin
 430 2013-07-19 10:02:27 <Supa> then tells me his business partner is DigitalOcean
 431 2013-07-19 10:02:30 <Diablo-D3> they keep forking the goddamned bitcoin source
 432 2013-07-19 10:02:31 <Supa> I was like omfg...
 433 2013-07-19 10:02:35 <Diablo-D3> Supa: ARGH
 434 2013-07-19 10:02:39 <Diablo-D3> goddamnitsomuch
 435 2013-07-19 10:02:44 * Diablo-D3 fucking HATES digital ocean
 436 2013-07-19 10:02:50 <Supa> I was like wow
 437 2013-07-19 10:02:58 <Supa> talk to him about mining on the free vps
 438 2013-07-19 10:03:03 <Supa> he got SOOOOO pissed
 439 2013-07-19 10:03:09 <gjs278> the point of altcoins is merged mining and selling them for bitcoins
 440 2013-07-19 10:03:09 <Supa> cause he gets in shit too
 441 2013-07-19 10:03:56 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: yeah pretty much
 442 2013-07-19 10:04:03 <Diablo-D3> its sure as hell not for actual currency purposes
 443 2013-07-19 10:04:14 <c0rw1n> the point of altcoins is solving different problems, or none
 444 2013-07-19 10:04:20 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 445 2013-07-19 10:04:24 <c0rw1n> namecoin, now that's useful
 446 2013-07-19 10:04:25 <gjs278> every altcoin is a pump and dump
 447 2013-07-19 10:05:03 <Diablo-D3> yeah like
 448 2013-07-19 10:05:04 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 449 2013-07-19 10:05:06 <Diablo-D3> if I did an altcoin
 450 2013-07-19 10:05:14 <Diablo-D3> the problem I would solve is THE BITCOIN SOURCE SUCKS
 451 2013-07-19 10:05:22 <jchp> yes for example, the point of primecoin is to make RSA worthless by creating financial incentive for finding primes quickly thereby endangering anyone who has ever sent a PGP message /s
 452 2013-07-19 10:05:30 <gjs278> my altcoin would literally just be a non broken makefile
 453 2013-07-19 10:05:33 <Diablo-D3> but I just really dont want to tackle that problem
 454 2013-07-19 10:06:05 <Diablo-D3> like, goddamnitsomuch crypto
 455 2013-07-19 10:06:40 <TD> primecoin doesn't find primes, exactly
 456 2013-07-19 10:06:51 <Diablo-D3> it finds chains of primes
 457 2013-07-19 10:07:12 <TD> it finds "prime chains". almost but not quite the same thing
 458 2013-07-19 10:07:28 <Diablo-D3> it finds lists of primes that have magic properties.
 459 2013-07-19 10:07:35 CodeName has joined
 460 2013-07-19 10:08:10 <jchp> yeah :-P exaggerating, hence the /sarcasm
 461 2013-07-19 10:08:45 <Supa> hmmmm pump and dumps
 462 2013-07-19 10:08:47 <Supa> "drools"
 463 2013-07-19 10:08:56 <Diablo-D3> man, I wonder if its possible to do all the crypto in bitcoin using off the shelf software
 464 2013-07-19 10:09:01 <Supa> imaginaryly generated money is so awesome
 465 2013-07-19 10:09:15 <Supa> imaginarily*
 466 2013-07-19 10:10:33 <sipa> TD: yesterday i realized that the hashrate increase per hour is now higher than the total it was in januari 2011
 467 2013-07-19 10:11:05 <sipa> Diablo-D3: is openssl 'off the shelf' ?
 468 2013-07-19 10:12:21 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I think so
 469 2013-07-19 10:15:06 agnostic98 has joined
 470 2013-07-19 10:16:34 <gjs278> I'm only using dragonflybsd from now on
 471 2013-07-19 10:16:35 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 472 2013-07-19 10:16:40 <gjs278> you bros can be jelly my hammerfs
 473 2013-07-19 10:17:56 ielo has joined
 474 2013-07-19 10:19:36 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: "hammerfs: the file system is my penis"
 475 2013-07-19 10:19:43 <c0rw1n> lulz
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 483 2013-07-19 10:29:08 <bmcgee> Hi all, I need some advice on integration testing a pool server with a miner. I'm using the testnet, and I've fixed the target in the block template to max to encourage some real submissions. I only have a little mac mini to run the miner on, get in the order of khash/s which isn't good enough. Is there anything else I can do to encourage some submissions?
 484 2013-07-19 10:31:56 <SomeoneWeird> setup a separate blockchain and mine on that, then you'll be able to mine all the blocks
 485 2013-07-19 10:32:42 <bmcgee> SomeoneWeird: how would I go about doing that?
 486 2013-07-19 10:32:50 <SomeoneWeird> ;;google testnet in a box
 487 2013-07-19 10:32:51 <gribble> freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box · GitHub: <https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box>; Testnet in a box - Bitcoin Forum: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4483.0>; Bitcoin - Browse /Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box at SourceForge.net: <http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/>
 488 2013-07-19 10:32:57 <SomeoneWeird> ^
 489 2013-07-19 10:33:00 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 490 2013-07-19 10:33:13 <bmcgee> thx guys, i'll have a look
 491 2013-07-19 10:34:21 Namworld has quit ()
 492 2013-07-19 10:36:25 <bmcgee> stupid question, but since I have my pool server hardcoded to set the block template target to difficulty 1, how is that different to using the testnet in a box? Have i not already made things as easy as possible for the miner?
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 520 2013-07-19 11:39:18 <Eliel_> bmcgee: as I understand it, yes, that's as easy as it gets
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 538 2013-07-19 12:22:25 <SomeoneWeird> lol github is down
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 546 2013-07-19 12:35:50 <joeykrim> SomeoneWeird, yea, status says massive outage due to DDoS :x
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 571 2013-07-19 13:00:26 <t7> who would ddos github ?
 572 2013-07-19 13:01:04 <t7> my only gripe with github is they dont opensource alot of their own clients and stuff which are built on mostly open libraries and components
 573 2013-07-19 13:01:06 <Diablo-D3> why.jpg
 574 2013-07-19 13:01:15 <t7> but at the same time i d opay them $5 a month
 575 2013-07-19 13:01:24 <Diablo-D3> t7: because their shit also interacts with the enterprise shit
 576 2013-07-19 13:01:35 <Diablo-D3> and thats how they feed themselves and can afford to host our shit for free
 577 2013-07-19 13:01:42 <Diablo-D3> its a worthwhile trade
 578 2013-07-19 13:01:45 <t7> no i pay them for that
 579 2013-07-19 13:01:53 <Diablo-D3> ahh
 580 2013-07-19 13:01:53 <Diablo-D3> I dont
 581 2013-07-19 13:02:01 <Diablo-D3> none of my projects are popular enough to require that
 582 2013-07-19 13:02:12 <SomeoneWeird> if you need to host private stuff, use bitbucket
 583 2013-07-19 13:02:17 <t7> mine either but i clone loads of others
 584 2013-07-19 13:02:21 <SomeoneWeird> } else { github() }
 585 2013-07-19 13:02:31 gjj has joined
 586 2013-07-19 13:02:35 <Habbie> SomeoneWeird, paying github $7/month easily beats using two sites, for us
 587 2013-07-19 13:02:57 <SomeoneWeird> Habbie, yeah ofc it just depends on what you're doing
 588 2013-07-19 13:03:21 ielo has joined
 589 2013-07-19 13:03:26 <Habbie> github has 100 public repos
 590 2013-07-19 13:03:28 <Habbie> that's impressive
 591 2013-07-19 13:03:58 <Diablo-D3> heh
 592 2013-07-19 13:04:11 <Diablo-D3> netflix has quite a few too
 593 2013-07-19 13:04:12 <Luke-Jr> … just 100?
 594 2013-07-19 13:04:24 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: ...
 595 2013-07-19 13:04:24 <Habbie> Luke-Jr, from github -themselves-, yes
 596 2013-07-19 13:04:28 <Luke-Jr> oh
 597 2013-07-19 13:04:29 * Diablo-D3 facepalms
 598 2013-07-19 13:04:37 * Diablo-D3 doublefacepalms
 599 2013-07-19 13:04:52 <t7> mosaic face palms .jpg
 600 2013-07-19 13:04:54 <iwilcox> You have two faces?
 601 2013-07-19 13:05:02 <Diablo-D3> no, I have two palms
 602 2013-07-19 13:05:12 <Luke-Jr> Habbie: how many of them are actual github projects, and not just "forks" with trivial changes? <.<
 603 2013-07-19 13:05:16 * Diablo-D3 facepalms iwilcox 
 604 2013-07-19 13:06:07 <Habbie> Luke-Jr, more than half, it seems
 605 2013-07-19 13:06:23 <Diablo-D3> what I dont get is
 606 2013-07-19 13:06:33 <Diablo-D3> github hosts the most distributed fault tolerant software in the world
 607 2013-07-19 13:06:34 <Diablo-D3> yet
 608 2013-07-19 13:06:38 <Diablo-D3> github goes down
 609 2013-07-19 13:06:48 <Diablo-D3> HOW DOES THAT WORK
 610 2013-07-19 13:06:51 <Habbie> you're confusing git, the protocol
 611 2013-07-19 13:07:00 <Habbie> with hosting git with a webinterface, which is a service
 612 2013-07-19 13:07:06 <Diablo-D3> Habbie: erm, no?
 613 2013-07-19 13:07:24 <Habbie> well let's go at this differently
 614 2013-07-19 13:07:27 <Diablo-D3> almost all the projects Im thinking of I know for a fact host on github
 615 2013-07-19 13:07:28 <Habbie> what do you propose they change
 616 2013-07-19 13:07:37 <Habbie> so that they can practically stay up during ddos?
 617 2013-07-19 13:08:03 <Diablo-D3> well
 618 2013-07-19 13:08:04 <Diablo-D3> they use a lot of RoR
 619 2013-07-19 13:08:10 <Diablo-D3> and SOME erlang, but clearly not enough
 620 2013-07-19 13:08:26 <Diablo-D3> Habbie: well
 621 2013-07-19 13:08:30 <Diablo-D3> if they knew what they were doing
 622 2013-07-19 13:08:35 <Diablo-D3> they wouldnt even notice a ddos
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 624 2013-07-19 13:08:51 <Habbie> oh, they don't know what they're doing
 625 2013-07-19 13:08:54 <Habbie> i did not realise that
 626 2013-07-19 13:08:58 <Habbie> [sarcasm sign]
 627 2013-07-19 13:09:02 <Diablo-D3> sometimes I question their competency, yes.
 628 2013-07-19 13:09:54 <Diablo-D3> seriously, a rack full of microclouds and two 100gbit/sec lines to the outside world
 629 2013-07-19 13:10:08 <Diablo-D3> and then do that again in another DC
 630 2013-07-19 13:10:17 <Diablo-D3> like to see a ddos drop that.
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 635 2013-07-19 13:11:59 <Luke-Jr> I've seen DDoSes drop entire datacenters…
 636 2013-07-19 13:12:42 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: very shitty ones, yes
 637 2013-07-19 13:12:57 <Habbie> bandwidth is hardly interesting in terms of DDoS
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 639 2013-07-19 13:13:06 <Luke-Jr> well, two 100 Gbit lines wouldn't save you
 640 2013-07-19 13:13:09 <Habbie> Diablo-D3, i get the distinct feeling you're not speaking from experience
 641 2013-07-19 13:13:28 gjj has joined
 642 2013-07-19 13:13:34 <Diablo-D3> Habbie: I have the distinct feeling you don't realize what 2 racks of microclouds can do.
 643 2013-07-19 13:14:06 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: no, but four probably would.
 644 2013-07-19 13:14:06 <Habbie> two 100gbit lines will start to save you when you have routers to go with it - that can filter usefully at 200 million packets per second
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 646 2013-07-19 13:14:59 <Diablo-D3> Habbie: cisco makes such gear.
 647 2013-07-19 13:15:00 <Habbie> Diablo-D3, supermicro microcloud?
 648 2013-07-19 13:15:04 <Diablo-D3> yes, supermicro
 649 2013-07-19 13:16:02 <Habbie> microcloud does not seem very magical apart from being pretty high density
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 651 2013-07-19 13:16:22 <Diablo-D3> thats the point.
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 653 2013-07-19 13:17:17 <Diablo-D3> 168 haswell e3-1200s in 42U.
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 661 2013-07-19 13:25:07 <t7> are those arm super cluster 2U units ever gonna arive
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 667 2013-07-19 13:41:44 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: ping
 668 2013-07-19 13:42:15 <ThomasV> the bip32 test vector contains the following derivation: [Chain m/0'/1/2'/2]
 669 2013-07-19 13:42:37 <ThomasV> this means private-> public -> private
 670 2013-07-19 13:42:46 <sipa> ThomasV: correct
 671 2013-07-19 13:43:13 <ThomasV> so I assule that in order to do the 2' derivation, I need to have done 1' before
 672 2013-07-19 13:43:20 <ThomasV> *assume*
 673 2013-07-19 13:43:24 <sipa> no?
 674 2013-07-19 13:43:26 <ThomasV> or am I missing something
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 676 2013-07-19 13:43:56 <sipa> there's perhaps some confusion between type-1 and type-2 derivation, and public and private derivation
 677 2013-07-19 13:44:19 <sipa> /n' means you use type-1 derivation, which is only possible if you have the parent private extended key
 678 2013-07-19 13:44:35 <ThomasV> exactly
 679 2013-07-19 13:44:39 <sipa> /n means you use type-2 derivation, which is possible both when you have the parent private or public extended key
 680 2013-07-19 13:44:54 <sipa> but /n' and /n are distinctly different keys
 681 2013-07-19 13:45:06 <sipa> /n' is not the public form corresponding to /n
 682 2013-07-19 13:45:12 <ThomasV> right
 683 2013-07-19 13:45:17 <ThomasV> ok, thanks sipa
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 685 2013-07-19 13:46:59 <ThomasV> sipa: btw, did you think about adding a recommendation on which bip32 sequences numbers should be reserved for multisig?
 686 2013-07-19 13:49:03 <sipa> that's up to the client, imho
 687 2013-07-19 13:49:24 <sipa> i don't mind adding a recommendation, but i haven't thought about it
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 720 2013-07-19 14:29:47 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 726 2013-07-19 14:45:27 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
 727 2013-07-19 14:45:29 <gmaxwell> https://blog.conformal.com/btcchain-the-bitcoin-chain-package-from-bctd/
 728 2013-07-19 14:45:59 <gmaxwell> I wonder what weird for of nature confers stealth power to bluematt's block tester, even after people are explicitly pointed to it?
 729 2013-07-19 14:50:08 <petertodd> I'll bet you even if ref-bitcoind was a lovely little modular library just waiting for you to integrate it into your bigger framework people would still rewrite the fucking thing every time.
 730 2013-07-19 14:50:20 <petertodd> Human nature.
 731 2013-07-19 14:51:46 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 732 2013-07-19 14:52:12 <sipa> perhaps if bitcoind (or whatever there was instead) would be split up into a "p2p verification node" and wallet nodes connected to it, people wouldn't consider rewriting everything at once the natural thing to do
 733 2013-07-19 14:52:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: can we just remove all wallet code in bitcoind completely
 734 2013-07-19 14:52:40 <BlueMatt> and remove bitcoin-qt
 735 2013-07-19 14:53:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I actually paid a wizard to make it invisible to muggles
 736 2013-07-19 14:53:58 <TD> i believe the lack of documentation on basically everything developer related won't help with that.
 737 2013-07-19 14:54:09 <TD> i believe the block tester tool is documented on the bitcoinj website and nowhere else
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 739 2013-07-19 14:54:16 <TD> no wizards required ...
 740 2013-07-19 14:54:39 <BlueMatt> wait...you wrote docs for it?
 741 2013-07-19 14:55:29 <TD> oh, maybe i didn't actually. i think it might be mentioned in the full verification mode doc.
 742 2013-07-19 14:55:33 <TD> but now i don't recall.
 743 2013-07-19 14:55:37 <TD> so probably there are no docs at all
 744 2013-07-19 14:57:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm pretty sure petertodd is right with the human nature part. There will always be an excuse. ... but that doesn't mean that doing things like that wouldn't help.
 745 2013-07-19 14:58:41 <BlueMatt> hmm... 0.10 BTC bounty for anyone who wants to go through the blocks at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46370.msg577556#msg577556 and either integrate them in https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts or add all of the tested cases to the bitcoinj test tool (or prove that they are already there)
 746 2013-07-19 14:59:06 <BlueMatt> NIH syndrome is faaaar too powerful
 747 2013-07-19 14:59:38 <BlueMatt> actually 0.01 BTC for each new useful block in the bitcoinj test tool
 748 2013-07-19 15:00:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: i can't deny that i myself would like to rewrite it from scratch even :p
 749 2013-07-19 15:00:25 <gmaxwell> Yep. "It's but it's not wrtten in COBOL! And Fooze Corp all our software is enterprize cobol, anything less is not business grade!" :P
 750 2013-07-19 15:00:44 <jgarzik> huh
 751 2013-07-19 15:00:58 * jgarzik learns OP_CODESEPARATOR history from TD @ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255145.msg2760786#msg2760786
 752 2013-07-19 15:01:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's not even the content of the software, people like to program. :P
 753 2013-07-19 15:01:01 <TD> rewriting code is fun. you always think ..... This Time It Will Be DIFFERENT!
 754 2013-07-19 15:01:23 <iwilcox> Then along come users and ruin it.
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 756 2013-07-19 15:02:04 <sipa> jgarzik: afaik it was roconnor even that discovered that, in git (=svn) history
 757 2013-07-19 15:02:24 <TD> "rediscovered", i guess
 758 2013-07-19 15:02:28 <sipa> yeah
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 760 2013-07-19 15:02:31 <sipa> i'm sure it was known before
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 763 2013-07-19 15:02:40 <sipa> TD: the nice thing about rewriting code is that you always understand the entirety of the codebase
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 765 2013-07-19 15:03:03 <sipa> except for the fact that it most likely doesn't work at all, untill you've reached similar levels of complexity as the code you were rewriting
 766 2013-07-19 15:03:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: The problem is writing a library to implement Bitcoin is actually really easy, no fancy comp-sci required, except for that pesky consensus part.
 767 2013-07-19 15:03:27 <TD> or you get bored and then someone else has to  maintain it
 768 2013-07-19 15:04:13 <lianj> but since op_return returns invalid script today, is not running them separately still a security hole?
 769 2013-07-19 15:04:15 <jgarzik> speaking of NIH, my SPV wallet is coming along.  Should be able to watch-only in the next couple of days.  https://github.com/gasteve/node-libcoin + https://github.com/jgarzik/wally     tl;dr a bitcoinjs-server cleanup, so not from-scratch.
 770 2013-07-19 15:04:35 <TD> cool. though ..... javascript :/
 771 2013-07-19 15:04:36 <TD> <sigh>
 772 2013-07-19 15:04:37 <lianj> s/not//
 773 2013-07-19 15:04:45 <jgarzik> hehe
 774 2013-07-19 15:05:14 <petertodd> TD: jgarzik is just pissed that he had to s/tabs/spaces/ in his python library
 775 2013-07-19 15:05:15 <TD> it's like people deliberately say,   "ahhh yes. financial software in which a high degree of correctness, security and performance is essential"
 776 2013-07-19 15:05:20 <lianj> oh no, not was right. question is, is run(scriptSig+scriptPubKey) ok again?
 777 2013-07-19 15:05:26 <jgarzik> BitPay is enamored of node.js and Google v8.  I'm still a C programmer at heart.
 778 2013-07-19 15:05:28 <petertodd> lianj: no
 779 2013-07-19 15:05:37 <jgarzik> At least v8 runs JS at near-native speed ;p
 780 2013-07-19 15:05:45 <lianj> petertodd: why?
 781 2013-07-19 15:05:47 <TD> "i will use a single threaded language with no static analysis tools at all, in which the best compilers are several multiples slower than other languages"
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 783 2013-07-19 15:06:12 <petertodd> lianj: First of all, the ref client doesn't do that, and secondly the basic idea is unsound and just leads to having to go on bug hunts.
 784 2013-07-19 15:06:20 <jgarzik> TD, that drives me crazy about python and JS both: what if I _want_ to annotate my types, for better static checking and optimization?
 785 2013-07-19 15:06:31 <jgarzik> You can see the results in cython
 786 2013-07-19 15:06:37 <TD> jgarzik: well with JS you can and should .... use the closure compiler. it's what we do in google
 787 2013-07-19 15:06:46 <TD> basically all javascript has to be type annotated and used with the jscompiler
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 789 2013-07-19 15:06:52 <TD> we don't really use it as a dynamic language at all
 790 2013-07-19 15:07:11 <lianj> petertodd: hm ok, but so its not proven to be a security issue
 791 2013-07-19 15:07:17 <TD> the result looks more like an ugly, weird form of java but at least you can have several hundred people share a codebase and it doesn't immediately disintegrate
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 793 2013-07-19 15:07:19 <petertodd> jgarzik: Yup, and people have also written type-checking libraries for interpreted python as well - which really shows you how ludicriously flexible Python can be.
 794 2013-07-19 15:07:31 <petertodd> lianj: not proven, but boy does it smell bad...
 795 2013-07-19 15:08:11 <sipa> it must be eval(scriptSig + OP_CODESEPARATOR + scriptPubKey) by the way
 796 2013-07-19 15:08:12 <lianj> i don't really see why, if it shares the stack anyway
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 798 2013-07-19 15:08:22 <sipa> and i'm sure it'll interact funnily with P2SH
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 800 2013-07-19 15:08:39 <TD> lianj: only the return code of the scriptPubKey matters
 801 2013-07-19 15:08:44 <TD> lianj: previously it was all just one program
 802 2013-07-19 15:08:47 <TD> kind of fundamental ...
 803 2013-07-19 15:08:54 <petertodd> lianj: Point is, why should it do anything other than just share the stack?
 804 2013-07-19 15:09:03 <sipa> i don't know why it wouldn't work today
 805 2013-07-19 15:09:16 <sipa> modulo weird OP_CODESEPs in your code, and P2SH
 806 2013-07-19 15:09:35 <sipa> but there is no way to make scriptSig return before scriptPubKey starts executing now
 807 2013-07-19 15:09:44 <sipa> though perhaps with OP_IF you can do something ugly...
 808 2013-07-19 15:10:02 <sipa> anyway, i wouldn't bother trying
 809 2013-07-19 15:10:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: requires correct OP_CODESEP implementation...
 810 2013-07-19 15:10:17 <petertodd> sipa: Only if the scriptPubKey has unmatched OP_ELSE/ENDIFs
 811 2013-07-19 15:11:08 <petertodd> More generally, the reason why prunable is defined with OP_RETURN first is so that we don't lock ourselves into not being able to do OP_RETURN_TRUE later.
 812 2013-07-19 15:11:15 <petertodd> (well, one reason)
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 814 2013-07-19 15:12:51 <lianj> is confused now, but thanks :D
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 817 2013-07-19 15:13:50 <petertodd> lianj: I'll admit the amount of special-purpose jargon we've come up with is frightening.
 818 2013-07-19 15:14:13 <jgarzik> I hate OP_IF :)
 819 2013-07-19 15:14:20 <jgarzik> having implemented it twice now
 820 2013-07-19 15:14:22 <lianj> can you explain "prunable is defined with OP_RETURN first", guess i missed that
 821 2013-07-19 15:14:51 <jgarzik> lianj, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2791
 822 2013-07-19 15:15:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: I love OP_IF, because of all the cool things it could do enable if only the scripting language didn't suck...
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 826 2013-07-19 15:17:02 <lianj> jgarzik: thanks, but if OP_RETURN makes the script invalid anyway, it clear that its unspendable. so this patch doesn't really redefine op_return, but only applies it to prunable db thinking
 827 2013-07-19 15:17:13 <gmaxwell> lianj: OP_RETURN_TRUE OP_RETURN   would be spendable and thus non-prunable.
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 830 2013-07-19 15:17:38 <gmaxwell> potentially, if ever such a beast were made.
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 833 2013-07-19 15:18:09 <lianj> gmaxwell: how, if https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script states OP_RETURN = Marks transaction as invalid.  or did this change in code
 834 2013-07-19 15:18:45 <jgarzik> lianj, I think that's a case of poor wording
 835 2013-07-19 15:18:55 <jgarzik> on the wiki
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 837 2013-07-19 15:20:07 <lianj> ok, todo for me execute them seperatly and look at the actual code for op_return again. :)
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 840 2013-07-19 15:23:33 <lianj> op_return it returns false, and op_return_first doesn't exist
 841 2013-07-19 15:23:54 <lianj> don't get me wrong, im sure you guys are right. just trying to follow
 842 2013-07-19 15:25:03 <lianj> eh s/op_return_first/op_return_true/
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 844 2013-07-19 15:26:01 <gmaxwell> lianj: right, and potentially someday an OP_RETURN_TRUE is added (which of course carefully checks the context). Someone adds it to your codebase, and then because of how you've implemented unrelated things the world ends.
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 847 2013-07-19 15:27:16 <gmaxwell> You can say that taking care of that is a responsibility of the person adding OP_RETURN_TRUE but: it's bad to create traps, and If you've pruned that data (because you didn't define prunable to require return in the first position) then it could be very hard to incrementally fix nodes.
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 849 2013-07-19 15:29:54 <lianj> true. guess i don't care too much about purne so haven't seen it from that angle. thanks
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 859 2013-07-19 15:47:17 <petertodd> lianj: the patch isn't about making scripts unspendable, it's about deciding on a canonical way to do so
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 870 2013-07-19 16:03:36 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Perhaps you'd like to comment: https://blog.conformal.com/btcchain-the-bitcoin-chain-package-from-bctd/#comment-180
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 875 2013-07-19 16:11:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea
 876 2013-07-19 16:11:45 <BlueMatt> will do
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 883 2013-07-19 16:25:00 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Who are those people?
 884 2013-07-19 16:26:01 <gmaxwell> Unclear. The only exposure I'd had to them prior to this stuff is one of their engineers showed up here complaining about the bitcoin unit tests failing on their openbsd fork.
 885 2013-07-19 16:26:35 <gmaxwell> (Ultimately because their rand() only returned even numbers and coin selection used the least significant bit of rand() in the solver)
 886 2013-07-19 16:27:03 <gmaxwell> They seem more professional than some other people who've worked on alternative implementations, so thats good.
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 907 2013-07-19 16:54:33 <mhanne> how much utxo space does this pruning of provably-unspendable outputs save?
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 909 2013-07-19 16:54:49 <petertodd> mhanne: pretty much zero now
 910 2013-07-19 16:54:56 <petertodd> mhanne: it's more for the future
 911 2013-07-19 16:55:16 <mhanne> ah ok. i'd have been surprised..
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 913 2013-07-19 16:56:05 <mhanne> is there as upcoming usecase that is expected to produce many of these outputs?
 914 2013-07-19 16:56:06 <gmaxwell> mhanne: in the past we've encouraged people who needed an extra output to use spendable ones...
 915 2013-07-19 16:56:17 <sipa> mhanne: up to a few weeks ago, 0
 916 2013-07-19 16:56:24 <sipa> in the main chain
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 918 2013-07-19 16:56:37 <gmaxwell> e.g. p2pool used to use an anyone can spend output for its sharechain binder.
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 920 2013-07-19 16:56:50 <sipa> in testnet there have been OP_RETURNS for a while
 921 2013-07-19 16:56:54 <gmaxwell> Now it uses an OP_RETURN, specifically because this functionality was upcoming.
 922 2013-07-19 16:57:10 <mhanne> gmaxwell: ah, nice
 923 2013-07-19 16:59:04 <jgarzik> Nice to see someone building an off-chain gambling competitor to on-chain SatoshiDICE: http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-gambler-cheats-satoshidice-competitor-just-dice-out-of-1300-btc/
 924 2013-07-19 17:01:29 <petertodd> jgarzik: satoshiroulet already did that
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 926 2013-07-19 17:02:14 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: It might be interesting to discover their origins. Non-homogeneous client populations are good, unless it's a douchey political move in which case SHUN
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 928 2013-07-19 17:02:33 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it's more complicated than that.
 929 2013-07-19 17:03:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: did that kojo guy actually continue ranting that we needed to set a standard rather than coding?
 930 2013-07-19 17:03:29 <sipa> ...
 931 2013-07-19 17:03:47 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: We have a consensus system. Our value is derrived almost exclusively from nodes behaving _exactly_ the same in the important ways. Verifying identical behavior is really hard even when you're super vigilant.  What is the optimal diversity / consistent risk tradeoff?  Hard question.
 932 2013-07-19 17:04:30 <petertodd> jgarzik: So how long until distributed fidelity bonded bitcointalk, so kojo can pay for his rants?
 933 2013-07-19 17:04:36 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: there are also other costs: For example, there are many services which _still_ will not let people pay to P2SH addresses. :(
 934 2013-07-19 17:04:42 <jgarzik> hah
 935 2013-07-19 17:05:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ...and mike's been ranting about P2SH lately and how he won't add it to bitcoinj
 936 2013-07-19 17:05:16 <jgarzik> distributed forum software is way down on the priority list -- though identity+P2P flood fill is doable in short term
 937 2013-07-19 17:05:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: what??
 938 2013-07-19 17:05:33 <jgarzik> yeah, saw that
 939 2013-07-19 17:05:38 <gmaxwell> please don't tell me that multibit can't pay to a p2sh address.
 940 2013-07-19 17:05:50 <gmaxwell> (... I didn't even think to test that. :( )
 941 2013-07-19 17:06:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Probably not
 942 2013-07-19 17:06:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Mike's anti-P2SH rant is why jdillon offered a bounty to ban everything but p2sh and pubkeyhash...
 943 2013-07-19 17:06:54 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: so more diversity creates a multiplicative cost in moving the ecosystem forward.
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 945 2013-07-19 17:07:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=216982.msg2669417#msg2669417
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 947 2013-07-19 17:08:38 <sipa> :(
 948 2013-07-19 17:08:43 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I'm presuming all those kinds of issues will just be solved, or forced to be solved when majority hash goes one way or the other. Mostly I'm curious as to *why* they're building that client.
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 950 2013-07-19 17:10:06 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: you can't resolve well split hardforking problems with hashpower. (well excepting in that you get an enormous reorg when the more restrictive side gives up, and you get a massive reorg that potentially gets people robbed) :(
 951 2013-07-19 17:10:46 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: they said they were because they had problems running bitcoind on their openbsd fork and they were unimpressed by it.
 952 2013-07-19 17:10:53 <petertodd> midnightmagic: Keep in mind that at some point large re-orgs fail due to memory limits.
 953 2013-07-19 17:10:57 <jgarzik> huh
 954 2013-07-19 17:11:00 <jgarzik> I missed Hal's reply
 955 2013-07-19 17:11:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hm?
 956 2013-07-19 17:11:25 <petertodd> midnightmagic: Hashing power splits are ugly for so many reasons...
 957 2013-07-19 17:11:35 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, on the thread petertodd just linked
 958 2013-07-19 17:11:43 <midnightmagic> petertodd: bring it, my machine has 128GB RAM! lol
 959 2013-07-19 17:12:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea. :)
 960 2013-07-19 17:12:26 * midnightmagic suddenly wants to spend a p2sh tx into mainline
 961 2013-07-19 17:12:44 <petertodd> midnightmagic: huh? p2sh is used...
 962 2013-07-19 17:13:02 <midnightmagic> what happens when bitcoinj encounters it, if it doesn't support them "at all"?
 963 2013-07-19 17:13:21 <petertodd> midnightmagic: 3LejWS17n4s7NpGbpkifBBVpfNp473zCW5 is an example
 964 2013-07-19 17:13:23 <midnightmagic> or does it just not verify their correctness.
 965 2013-07-19 17:13:34 <lianj> midnightmagic: nothing as its backward compatible
 966 2013-07-19 17:13:36 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, probably just means they are invisible to those wallets
 967 2013-07-19 17:13:42 <petertodd> midnightmagic: bitcoinj has code to handle them in the chain, but the much easier code to make addresses and stuff isn't there
 968 2013-07-19 17:13:50 <midnightmagic> ah
 969 2013-07-19 17:13:53 <petertodd> midnightmagic: Sad, because that's like 10 lines...
 970 2013-07-19 17:13:58 <lianj> midnightmagic: i simply doesn't eval he inner script
 971 2013-07-19 17:14:07 <lianj> *it
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 973 2013-07-19 17:14:50 <midnightmagic> so really it does support them.
 974 2013-07-19 17:15:14 <petertodd> midnightmagic: Incompletely, and the important bit is left out.
 975 2013-07-19 17:16:16 <lianj> it doesn't know abou the inner script, so if the inner one would return false it wouldn't know and still think its valid
 976 2013-07-19 17:16:38 <midnightmagic> bitcoinj isn't used for mining though is it.
 977 2013-07-19 17:16:49 <sipa> i hope not
 978 2013-07-19 17:17:06 <petertodd> midnightmagic: Exactly, which is why the p2sh code in it is pretty much useless, yet it leaves out the tiny bit of client code that is useful.
 979 2013-07-19 17:17:11 <midnightmagic> I thought I understood a pool was using it somewhere.  Hrm..  now I can't find the log.
 980 2013-07-19 17:17:33 <midnightmagic> no matter, back to work
 981 2013-07-19 17:17:43 <lianj> petertodd: what would the client gui flow look like?
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 984 2013-07-19 17:18:14 <petertodd> lianj: For p2sh? All you have to support is spending funds to a P2SH address - trivial. It's just another way of constructing a txout.
 985 2013-07-19 17:18:44 <petertodd> lianj: Remember that P2SH *isn't* multisig.
 986 2013-07-19 17:18:45 <lianj> yea, but the other person needs to create/define his p2sh address first
 987 2013-07-19 17:18:51 <lianj> i do
 988 2013-07-19 17:18:57 <sipa> so?
 989 2013-07-19 17:19:04 <sipa> it doesn't matter where the p2sh address comes from
 990 2013-07-19 17:19:10 <sipa> that's a worry for the one creating it
 991 2013-07-19 17:19:33 <petertodd> lianj: Right, but they give you 3LejWS17n4s7NpGbpkifBBVpfNp473zCW5 and your client goes "ahh! the version bit is p2sh, thus I'll create txout OP_HASH160 <digest> OP_EQUAL"
 992 2013-07-19 17:19:36 <lianj> right, but for it to be used more widely it should be somewhat easy to create them
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 994 2013-07-19 17:19:51 <sipa> it's a chicken-and-egg problem
 995 2013-07-19 17:19:53 <petertodd> lianj: that's irrelevant to bitcoinj
 996 2013-07-19 17:19:54 <lianj> petertodd: mine does :P
 997 2013-07-19 17:20:00 <sipa> and eventually both sides need to be implemented
 998 2013-07-19 17:20:06 <sipa> but let's start with the easy part
 999 2013-07-19 17:20:12 <lianj> petertodd: but not for 'wonder why its not used much'
1000 2013-07-19 17:20:18 <petertodd> It's a chicken and egg problem, but in this case implementing the egg is 10 lines of code. :)
1001 2013-07-19 17:20:57 <sipa> and nobody is going to say "hey let's support creation of p2sh addresses!" if only a handful clients can even send funds to them
1002 2013-07-19 17:21:23 <lianj> bitcoind could add a simple get/gen p2sh receiving address with ich just hash160("#{k1.pub} OP_CHECKSIG") but thats kinda useless
1003 2013-07-19 17:21:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: I wonder if determinstic mode in the reference client shouldn't just always be P2SH... if you have to decide to create a new style wallet as a big switch when you create the wallet...
1004 2013-07-19 17:21:29 <petertodd> sipa: IMO the #1 problem right now is that satoshidice fails if you send it funds from a p2sh txout...
1005 2013-07-19 17:22:02 <petertodd> lianj: actually that's one byte shorter than a paytoscripthash, so it is useful - change addrs should work that way
1006 2013-07-19 17:22:05 <sipa> petertodd: right, and people see that as a problem of p2sh, not of SD :)
1007 2013-07-19 17:22:12 <petertodd> sipa: indeed
1008 2013-07-19 17:22:15 <lianj> petertodd: haha
1009 2013-07-19 17:22:25 <sipa> petertodd: change should always use the same type of output as the real one
1010 2013-07-19 17:22:32 <petertodd> IMO we should add p2sh change addrs to bitcoind and tell SD to fix their stupid site
1011 2013-07-19 17:22:51 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, we should even make p2sh multisig as change occasionally
1012 2013-07-19 17:23:02 <petertodd> sipa: tricky with deterministic though...
1013 2013-07-19 17:23:13 <gmaxwell> petertodd: bloaty.
1014 2013-07-19 17:23:41 <petertodd> sipa: At least it's easy to scan for paytoscript, paytoscripthash, and p2sh with inner paytopubkey at the same time
1015 2013-07-19 17:23:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup
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1018 2013-07-19 17:25:38 <gmaxwell> I'm all for reducing behavioral consistency when its not bloaty. but adding bloat for it isn't grand.
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1020 2013-07-19 17:27:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: change privacy is pretty weak anyway
1021 2013-07-19 17:28:11 <petertodd> trust-free mixing though should take change types into account, and try to mix with people who will use the same change addr type as you
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1025 2013-07-19 17:33:05 <lianj> petertodd: just checked and its same site
1026 2013-07-19 17:33:11 <lianj> size
1027 2013-07-19 17:33:27 <lianj> fuck my fingers today
1028 2013-07-19 17:33:28 <petertodd> lianj: p2sh with inner paytopubkey?
1029 2013-07-19 17:33:32 <lianj> yea
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1031 2013-07-19 17:33:53 <petertodd> what do you mean by "checked"?
1032 2013-07-19 17:33:53 <lianj> in total, input + output result in the same
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1035 2013-07-19 17:35:38 <lianj> petertodd: http://paste.mhanne.net/p/3ac5eecdaa8a408dcd6c2e8c2cf4be23e98cc143?hl=text
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1039 2013-07-19 17:38:31 <petertodd> lianj: ooh, I forgot to include the byte required to pushdata the serialized script
1040 2013-07-19 17:38:36 <lianj> well to be fair its p2sh with inner paytopubkey vs paytohash160
1041 2013-07-19 17:39:09 <gmaxwell> lianj: sure, which is the 1:1 comparison case.
1042 2013-07-19 17:39:20 <gmaxwell> Yea, I'd thought they were the same size.
1043 2013-07-19 17:39:45 <lianj> but p2sh with inner paytopubkey vs paytopubkey is actually much larger with the p2sh
1044 2013-07-19 17:40:08 <lianj> 62 vs 38 in my useless test case
1045 2013-07-19 17:40:17 <lianj> (useless because of sig = "foo")
1046 2013-07-19 17:40:20 <petertodd> lianj: right, but using paytopubkey is bad because it exposes us to ecc compromise directly
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1048 2013-07-19 17:40:44 <petertodd> petertodd: IMO worth the extra 15% to buy us time in that existential risk scenario
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1050 2013-07-19 17:41:05 <lianj> true, just saying that p2sh doesn't result in less data in the blockchain. not that that way a goal though
1051 2013-07-19 17:41:17 <gmaxwell> lianj: but then creates much larger addresses, exposes things to ecdsa attacks, etc.
1052 2013-07-19 17:41:30 <gmaxwell> lianj: No worse was a goal.
1053 2013-07-19 17:41:37 <lianj> less data for the output script but not for the redeeming input. in total its more
1054 2013-07-19 17:41:44 <lianj> oh really? ha
1055 2013-07-19 17:42:07 <gmaxwell> If we wanted less, we could have added pubkey recovery and skipped having to include the pubkey entirely.
1056 2013-07-19 17:42:15 <lianj> true
1057 2013-07-19 17:42:24 <gmaxwell> (instead just including a hash)
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1059 2013-07-19 17:42:46 <petertodd> p2sh^2 may prove to be worth it re: keeping the UTXO size small by discouraging data
1060 2013-07-19 17:42:51 <gmaxwell> lianj: also, payto pubkey is more data in the utxo set.
1061 2013-07-19 17:43:09 <lianj> so the real goal was output can be small and the redeemer can use whatever large script he wants?
1062 2013-07-19 17:43:28 <petertodd> lianj: yup, why should the sender care what crazy scripts the receiver wants?
1063 2013-07-19 17:43:43 <gmaxwell> lianj: yea, the goal of P2SH was to keep the sender out of the business of knowing/caring what the redeemers script was when he didn't need to be.
1064 2013-07-19 17:43:43 <lianj> yea makes sense
1065 2013-07-19 17:43:56 <lianj> thanks for the talk. gotta go
1066 2013-07-19 17:43:58 <gmaxwell> (If you're doing something weird and he needs to know— you can tell him the preimage)
1067 2013-07-19 17:44:31 <gmaxwell> Otherwise you'd never be able to have a multisig controlled wallet.. good luck convincing everyone who sends you funds to support that.
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1069 2013-07-19 17:44:47 <petertodd> at worst, include the preimage in an extra OP_RETURN if you're doing something screwy that absolutely must have public visibility (until we have better systems for that)
1070 2013-07-19 17:45:16 <gmaxwell> you're the most awesome at suggesting cringeworthy things.
1071 2013-07-19 17:45:39 <petertodd> someone's gotta do it so such things can be debunked :)
1072 2013-07-19 17:46:04 <petertodd> speaking of, so #bitcoin-dev -> op_return backup script
1073 2013-07-19 17:46:30 <petertodd> also bitcoin git -> op_return
1074 2013-07-19 17:46:47 <petertodd> we could make bitcoin auto-upgrade via the blockchain!
1075 2013-07-19 17:47:14 <petertodd> oh, and distribute new checkpoints that way too
1076 2013-07-19 17:47:42 <gmaxwell> If only I knew a way to make script validation contingent on you being dead.
1077 2013-07-19 17:47:46 <gmaxwell> :P
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1080 2013-07-19 17:48:52 <petertodd> That's easy if you make a signed IRC protocol, and then have #bitcoin-dev -> blockchain, followed by some ecc opcodes, blockchain database access opcodes, and reenabling the disabled string manip opcodes
1081 2013-07-19 17:49:18 <petertodd> Slight problem though: I could pretend to be dead.
1082 2013-07-19 17:49:55 <gmaxwell> Imagines scientists in 2124 studying the history of the strangest why inventors have been killed by their inventions.
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1084 2013-07-19 17:51:47 <petertodd> Remember how I suggested a proof-of-stake via government issued identity cards? Well any transparent government would use a merkle-sum-tree over all issued cards to be clear they aren't issuing fake ones, so make a scriptPubKey that allows you to commit to the total issued cards decreasing in advance, and if it decreases enough you can spent the txout.
1085 2013-07-19 17:51:55 <petertodd> Proof-of-genocide
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1148 2013-07-19 19:32:37 <gmaxwell> I wonder if we should have something like http://www.whatcanidoformozilla.org/  about contributing to the bitcoin ecosystem.
1149 2013-07-19 19:33:40 <gmaxwell> The site is at least moderately successful for mozilla: I have a couple of projects which are leafs on that wizard and one or two (usually not terribly useful) people show up per week offering to help.
1150 2013-07-19 19:35:17 rdponticelli has joined
1151 2013-07-19 19:35:57 <turboroot> gmaxwell: i like the idea
1152 2013-07-19 19:37:03 <gmaxwell> Okay I'll start it.
1153 2013-07-19 19:37:11 <gmaxwell> * Are you good at web development?
1154 2013-07-19 19:37:22 <gmaxwell> - Create a whatcanidoforbitcoin.org site.
1155 2013-07-19 19:37:28 * gmaxwell done
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1157 2013-07-19 19:39:10 <turboroot> i'll get working on it
1158 2013-07-19 19:39:34 <gmaxwell> I expect the moz site is open source, so copying it and changing the database would probably work.
1159 2013-07-19 19:39:59 <turboroot> perhaps a good time to test out namecheap's bitcoin integration while i'm at it
1160 2013-07-19 19:40:20 <gmaxwell> * Do you have bitcoin now?
1161 2013-07-19 19:40:28 <gmaxwell> - click this link to pay for a domain for this site
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1163 2013-07-19 19:41:42 <petertodd> lol
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1166 2013-07-19 19:42:12 <petertodd> * Do you have pizza?
1167 2013-07-19 19:42:15 <petertodd> - we like pizza
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1169 2013-07-19 19:44:56 <turboroot> ;;last
1170 2013-07-19 19:44:56 <gribble> [15:42:05] <petertodd> - we like pizza
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1172 2013-07-19 19:45:38 <MC1984> petertodd
1173 2013-07-19 19:46:10 <MC1984> i read your thesis on bitcoind spv mode
1174 2013-07-19 19:46:17 <MC1984> do it man
1175 2013-07-19 19:46:51 <MC1984> it reads like exactly what needs to happen to stop node count falling off a cliff (relative)
1176 2013-07-19 19:46:59 <petertodd> MC1984: it's a thesis now? :P yeah, I really like the idea
1177 2013-07-19 19:47:20 <petertodd> All nodes need to have the mindset that they should be contributing back to the network in some way.
1178 2013-07-19 19:47:37 <MC1984> i said the otehr day it seems to me like there are still major engineering stuff to get done before growing bitcoin
1179 2013-07-19 19:47:51 <MC1984> some people seem too eager imo
1180 2013-07-19 19:48:43 <MC1984> the thing about nodes haveing a block range to advertise sounds dangerously close to "why dont we put the blockchain in a DHT" :p
1181 2013-07-19 19:49:10 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it is, though with some potentially better performance properties.
1182 2013-07-19 19:49:30 <gmaxwell> MC1984: but whats the alternative? it takes up ~10 GB on disk now, people are installing electrum instead because of that.
1183 2013-07-19 19:49:53 <MC1984> youre right its preferable to everyone running electrum
1184 2013-07-19 19:50:03 <gmaxwell> If you have pruning as an option but no option where you can only contribute— say 4GB... then you end up with very few copies.
1185 2013-07-19 19:50:10 <MC1984> really id like to reach thru the internet and slap people who whinge about 10gb though
1186 2013-07-19 19:50:21 <c0rw1n> this might be totally stupid, but isn't the blockchain a sort of DHT implementation?
1187 2013-07-19 19:50:21 <MC1984> but thats 10gb less pron!
1188 2013-07-19 19:50:26 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yea, I know, it's silly but people fixate on silly things sometime.
1189 2013-07-19 19:50:54 <c0rw1n> i meat
1190 2013-07-19 19:50:56 <c0rw1n> erm
1191 2013-07-19 19:50:56 <gmaxwell> c0rw1n: no. If you wanted you could say its a D1HT. Though it's really just an authenticated linked list.
1192 2013-07-19 19:50:58 <MC1984> yeah people seemed to have romanticied the idea that the blockchain grows without bound
1193 2013-07-19 19:51:00 peetaur2 has joined
1194 2013-07-19 19:51:10 <MC1984> once they gt it, theyre like OMGGGGGGGGGGGGgg
1195 2013-07-19 19:51:56 <gmaxwell> MC1984: I mean, people see 10GB as a problem because it's a single big user. A great big target in their mind.
1196 2013-07-19 19:52:22 sserrano44 has joined
1197 2013-07-19 19:52:33 <MC1984> but a single game from the last two years could take over 30gb on disk
1198 2013-07-19 19:52:39 <MC1984> like max payne 3
1199 2013-07-19 19:52:47 <gmaxwell> MC1984: in any case, if contribution is 1 or 0  .. there is a risk that a lot of people who would contribute 0.5 contribute 0 and bad things happen.
1200 2013-07-19 19:53:04 <gmaxwell> And people remember 10GB being a lot, even though it isn't really anymore.
1201 2013-07-19 19:53:08 <c0rw1n> yeah but mobile. There, a game is what, 50 megs?
1202 2013-07-19 19:53:11 <MC1984> next time i hear someone complaining im tell them to look at their steam folder and report back
1203 2013-07-19 19:53:29 <MC1984> given steam sales, that folder also effectively grows without bound
1204 2013-07-19 19:53:30 <gmaxwell> c0rw1n: you wouldn't use a full node on mobile; no one is suggesting that, there are no builds of them for mobile, etc.
1205 2013-07-19 19:54:16 <petertodd> Partial mode could be even used to allow people with android phones to usefully contribute back to the network by also discarding old UTXO's and letting other nodes handle relaying them.
1206 2013-07-19 19:54:20 <MC1984> i remember 700mb being a ludicrous amount of data
1207 2013-07-19 19:54:34 <MC1984> pulp fiction.avi on 56k
1208 2013-07-19 19:54:43 <petertodd> Mobile data is an issue sure, but that's not a bottleneck in some more enlightened places.
1209 2013-07-19 19:54:56 <MC1984> went on holiday and came back and it was done
1210 2013-07-19 19:54:58 <MC1984> 13 lol
1211 2013-07-19 19:56:07 <MC1984> we can safely ignore mobile data until such a time as its not ruinous
1212 2013-07-19 19:56:21 <MC1984> that goes for netflix and every other legit big deal service too
1213 2013-07-19 19:56:53 cyrozap has left ("Bye!")
1214 2013-07-19 19:57:14 <gmaxwell> petertodd: one very low bandwidth way to contribute would be header relaying.
1215 2013-07-19 19:57:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, every node should relay headers
1216 2013-07-19 19:57:42 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. being able to tell nodes that there likely exists a longer chain than the one they are on now would be a defense against partitioning.
1217 2013-07-19 19:57:59 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1218 2013-07-19 19:58:05 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1219 2013-07-19 19:58:26 <MC1984> whats the status of the thing where zero conf could be made much safer
1220 2013-07-19 19:58:31 <gmaxwell> or even being able to proxy blocks.  "I haz a header X, but I'm a crappy spv node" "ohoh, I've not heard of that block. I don't care that you can't check it, please get it for me"
1221 2013-07-19 19:58:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, I was thinking, what would make sense for a "block header" inv, probably just to define a new INV type?
1222 2013-07-19 19:59:17 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well we've talked in the past about having unchecked block relaying.
1223 2013-07-19 19:59:17 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1224 2013-07-19 19:59:20 <petertodd> MC1984: Requires rethinking how nodes relay tx's, although I think it can be without changing the protocol after better DoS attack prevention is added.
1225 2013-07-19 19:59:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Seems reasonable to me, the only danger to it is DoS attacks, and that's a damn expensive DoS attack...
1226 2013-07-19 19:59:57 <MC1984> likely to happen? i think i read gavin or someone talking about it
1227 2013-07-19 19:59:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: being able to relay blocks before you've checked them if they are plausable extensions of your current chain..
1228 2013-07-19 20:00:02 <MC1984> probably not him
1229 2013-07-19 20:00:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if you wanted you could just have a TTL on them, so that honest nodes wouldn't pass them without checking by more than 2 hops.
1230 2013-07-19 20:00:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, partial mode implies that you won't be checking blocks you relay fully anyway
1231 2013-07-19 20:00:56 Application has joined
1232 2013-07-19 20:01:26 <petertodd> MC1984: you mean is replace-by-fee likely to happen? it already has, just with like 0.25% of the hashing power
1233 2013-07-19 20:01:43 <MC1984> oh cool
1234 2013-07-19 20:01:43 Applicat_ has joined
1235 2013-07-19 20:02:10 <MC1984> if we could get acceptable zero conf risk to like $20, that would be a boon
1236 2013-07-19 20:02:18 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1237 2013-07-19 20:02:23 <MC1984> well until the fees kick in then it wont matter
1238 2013-07-19 20:03:01 <petertodd> MC1984: Yeah, main this is scorched earth replace-by-fee has sane incentives, so you're just limited to the usual SPV risks of poor tx propagation.
1239 2013-07-19 20:03:55 <petertodd> MC1984: It's certainly not as safe as confirmed, but it stands a much higher chance of being safe in the future than the current defacto-zero-conf.
1240 2013-07-19 20:04:25 <gmaxwell> The argument that replace by fee makes 0-conf safer is a bit complicated.
1241 2013-07-19 20:04:47 <gmaxwell> I don't disbelieve it, but you should note that it may be controversial.
1242 2013-07-19 20:05:22 <gmaxwell> The argument is that replace by fee makes it much easier to make sure someone double spending you seldom turns a proft from it.
1243 2013-07-19 20:05:38 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1244 2013-07-19 20:05:44 <petertodd> What's most interesting is to what extent can you punish miners who mine a tx that you thought was a double spend and not break consensus?
1245 2013-07-19 20:05:48 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1246 2013-07-19 20:05:59 <gmaxwell> If someone double spends you, you author a child transaction that sends the full value to fees. They
1247 2013-07-19 20:06:09 <petertodd> You don't need much hashing power on replace-by-fee to make the current zero-conf worthless.
1248 2013-07-19 20:06:13 <gmaxwell> can't possibly profitably replace that one.
1249 2013-07-19 20:06:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, but note the subtlety of how you can attack multiple merchants at once for instance.
1250 2013-07-19 20:06:38 <MC1984> the profit motive fraud case is covered then
1251 2013-07-19 20:06:47 <MC1984> the troll motive is a different matter
1252 2013-07-19 20:07:01 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Obviously you just need a blockchain to decide what things in your blockchain were doublespends. :P
1253 2013-07-19 20:07:24 <gmaxwell> MC1984: right. And I think people might have a hard time with this 'solomon solution'.
1254 2013-07-19 20:07:30 <petertodd> MC1984: Exactly, and if trolling is a problem, you can get people to pay extra in advance and return that extra, for instance.
1255 2013-07-19 20:07:49 <gmaxwell> "So lemme get this right, … someone tries to steal my money… so I should burn it myself?"
1256 2013-07-19 20:07:59 CheckDavid has joined
1257 2013-07-19 20:08:02 <MC1984> i wonder if it could turn into the hot new ddos though
1258 2013-07-19 20:08:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: heh, well... one thing that would be kinda useful is proof-of-tx propagation: at 1/nth diff shares broadcast just lists of what tx's miners have in their mempool
1259 2013-07-19 20:08:21 <gmaxwell> MC1984: as petertodd points out, if you require people to overpay you can kill the trolling.
1260 2013-07-19 20:08:22 <MC1984> "pay $10,000 to this address or i keep pointlessly DSing you"
1261 2013-07-19 20:08:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, we call it p2pool.
1262 2013-07-19 20:08:42 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I mean, in the future when the subsidy goes away, we could fidelity bond mining.
1263 2013-07-19 20:09:12 <gmaxwell> "don't attempt a short term attack, because if you try one and lose you'll lose your mining bond"
1264 2013-07-19 20:09:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I know p2pool does it, point is to make it a standard feature. I mean, it's a nice way to know if you need to add more fees too...
1265 2013-07-19 20:09:34 <gmaxwell> or really, if you short term attack but don't >50% you'll lose your bond.
1266 2013-07-19 20:10:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, fidelity bonding miner behavior gets interesting that way...
1267 2013-07-19 20:10:10 <gmaxwell> e.g. every block gets tagged by a bond. If someone can show a conflict in to candidate bonded blocks the bond is destroyed.
1268 2013-07-19 20:10:20 normanrichards has joined
1269 2013-07-19 20:10:31 <gmaxwell> But they can only publish the bond destruction if the attacker controls a minority hashpower.
1270 2013-07-19 20:10:32 <petertodd> At that point you might as well have scripting support for this, and make the bond an anyone can spend given a proof of fraud.
1271 2013-07-19 20:10:59 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I suppose thats interesting: when you're tired of mining you recover your own bond.
1272 2013-07-19 20:11:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Or just timelock it.
1273 2013-07-19 20:11:26 <gmaxwell> (or sell 'fraud' evidence of yourself)
1274 2013-07-19 20:11:53 <petertodd> if <fraud> else time? if <pubkey> checksig endif endif
1275 2013-07-19 20:12:13 <petertodd> er, fraud? if 1 else time? if <pubkey> checksig endif endif
1276 2013-07-19 20:12:15 <petertodd> stupid forth
1277 2013-07-19 20:12:39 <petertodd> yeah, making it not profitable to commit fraud yourself is important
1278 2013-07-19 20:13:13 <gmaxwell> something will be needed when the marginal cost of mining a fork is low.
1279 2013-07-19 20:13:26 <gmaxwell> One problem with the idea fees will pay to secure it is that fees are not consistent.
1280 2013-07-19 20:13:42 <gmaxwell> at 3am there may be few fees... more profitable to do something naughty.
1281 2013-07-19 20:13:45 <petertodd> Yes, but the issue there is actually that mining power is consistent.
1282 2013-07-19 20:13:58 <petertodd> If mining power can change quickly it wouldn't be an issue.
1283 2013-07-19 20:14:25 <gmaxwell> obviously if mining is purely energy cost then you can turn it on and off.. but that can only be so true.
1284 2013-07-19 20:14:31 <petertodd> Remember that if mining power has infinite supply fees can be used to buy a fork, which makes scorched earth work against 51% attackers.
1285 2013-07-19 20:15:01 <petertodd> That's what I suggested in my zerocoin proposal basically...
1286 2013-07-19 20:15:15 <gmaxwell> it's true, a fidelity bond for consistency-in-mining would disincentivize buying a fork at any price less than enough to cover the bond.
1287 2013-07-19 20:15:27 <gmaxwell> I'm sorry that I haven't been reading a lot of discussion lately.
1288 2013-07-19 20:15:44 <gmaxwell> (I'm mostly just poking my head in whenever I have a test running)
1289 2013-07-19 20:15:56 <petertodd> No worries, I've been especially productive, er, at least volumous too.
1290 2013-07-19 20:16:08 <petertodd> s/volumous/voluminous/
1291 2013-07-19 20:16:14 <gmaxwell> so my time spent paying attention lately is inversely proportional to my processing power.
1292 2013-07-19 20:16:20 <gmaxwell> which is kinda funny.
1293 2013-07-19 20:16:34 * petertodd goes off to sabotage most, but not all, of gmaxwells processing power.
1294 2013-07-19 20:16:43 <kinlo> :p
1295 2013-07-19 20:16:59 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1296 2013-07-19 20:17:00 mappum has joined
1297 2013-07-19 20:17:16 <gmaxwell> I really need to get more cpus cranked up again, but I'm really doubtful my apartment can take another couple KW.
1298 2013-07-19 20:17:36 <petertodd> heh, shoulda bought bfl...
1299 2013-07-19 20:17:41 <MC1984> lol get a 3 phase
1300 2013-07-19 20:17:54 <gmaxwell> petertodd: pretty sure I shouldn't have! :P
1301 2013-07-19 20:18:21 <petertodd> they go use your bitcoin's to buy 3 phase
1302 2013-07-19 20:18:39 <petertodd> or rent the adjacent apartment just for access to the power panel...
1303 2013-07-19 20:19:07 <gmaxwell> I guess I need to do the math to figure out running my own systems vs using ec2/google compute again. Last time I did this math I wasn't impressed, but I didn't have $0.36/kwh power then.
1304 2013-07-19 20:19:14 <petertodd> "Sublease: cheap rent, but you have to like the dark."
1305 2013-07-19 20:19:14 <MC1984> local man named as gregory maxwell stated yesterday that he had an industrial power supply installed in his apartment for "computer equipment"
1306 2013-07-19 20:19:33 stevedekorte has joined
1307 2013-07-19 20:20:21 <MC1984> srs tho i wonder if any miners think about that
1308 2013-07-19 20:20:23 squwiggle has joined
1309 2013-07-19 20:20:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: One issue is you're farther away from the cheapest EC2 servers, and ping times get annoying to type with.
1310 2013-07-19 20:20:47 <MC1984> over here police can get a warrant for your power bills by flying over your house with an IR camera
1311 2013-07-19 20:20:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I don't type on it, just dispatch jobs. Not actually a problem.
1312 2013-07-19 20:20:51 <petertodd> MC1984: occasionally ceramic artists even get raided by police that mistake their kilns for grow ops
1313 2013-07-19 20:21:12 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin got visited by the police due to his mining power usage.
1314 2013-07-19 20:21:14 <turboroot> gmaxwell: boo… there's no license on mozilla's asknot site; we can't assume it's open source.
1315 2013-07-19 20:21:35 <MC1984> gmaxwell damn, thread?
1316 2013-07-19 20:21:44 <petertodd> MC1984: in BC canada the law was such that the building inspectors could essentially raid you place, and charge you exorbitant amounts for the "inspection" regardless of whether or not anything was found
1317 2013-07-19 20:22:42 <MC1984> yea
1318 2013-07-19 20:22:43 <gmaxwell> turboroot: just ask the author(s), it'll get fixed right away.
1319 2013-07-19 20:23:08 <MC1984> grow busts in the US are pretty crazy now, full swat tacticool unit
1320 2013-07-19 20:23:17 <MC1984> i wonder if anyone feels the need to be preepmtive about it
1321 2013-07-19 20:24:15 Skav has joined
1322 2013-07-19 20:24:21 <MC1984> that doesnt actually bode well for non government regulated mining actually
1323 2013-07-19 20:24:32 <MC1984> actually^2
1324 2013-07-19 20:24:36 <turboroot> gmaxwell: no worries, I was in the middle of writing some code, but I'll guess it'll be easier to fork theirs.
1325 2013-07-19 20:25:59 MobPhone_ has joined
1326 2013-07-19 20:26:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: thinking about it, fidelity bonded mining actually needs to be a change to the best chain selection, because you have no way of knowing if someone was mining a fork vs. their just unlucky and haven't found a block
1327 2013-07-19 20:26:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: pseudo hard-fork, kinda
1328 2013-07-19 20:26:21 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1329 2013-07-19 20:26:30 Skav has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1330 2013-07-19 20:26:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: pseudo hard fork, because we assume <50% evil hashing power still, so in the short term it's a hardfork, but not in the long term
1331 2013-07-19 20:27:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: (for miners it's a hardfork period - don't want to mine on the evil chain)
1332 2013-07-19 20:27:48 <gmaxwell> I don't follow? I don't think you use this to stop the fork, I think you use this to make creating it (successful or not) expensive.
1333 2013-07-19 20:28:26 <petertodd> Point is, so you fidelity bond your blocks right? But nothing stops you from mining evil blocks not linked to your bond.
1334 2013-07-19 20:28:50 <gmaxwell> oh it would need to be a softforking rule to require a bond to mine at all.
1335 2013-07-19 20:29:01 <gmaxwell> I was assuming that much.
1336 2013-07-19 20:29:14 <petertodd> Exactly, and what's remarkable, is that it doesn't need to be a soft-fork, it can actually be this new class of pseudo-hardfork.
1337 2013-07-19 20:30:11 <petertodd> I mean, point is, there's no need to require a bond, you can just make the existence of a bond be used in best-tip selection.
1338 2013-07-19 20:30:17 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1339 2013-07-19 20:31:01 Plinker_ has joined
1340 2013-07-19 20:31:21 <gmaxwell> oh, interesting.
1341 2013-07-19 20:31:48 debiantoruser has joined
1342 2013-07-19 20:31:55 <gmaxwell> well, thats effectively "block discouragement"
1343 2013-07-19 20:32:01 <petertodd> Implies we should relay the coinbase tx with blockheaders, or maybe the last txout + midstate.
1344 2013-07-19 20:32:30 <gmaxwell> it implies the @#$@# tree should be structured so the @#$@# coinbase txn isn't log2(n) levels down.
1345 2013-07-19 20:32:31 <petertodd> Well, for the miners nothing changes, it's only non-miners who would use the bonds.
1346 2013-07-19 20:32:39 <petertodd> yet another reason...
1347 2013-07-19 20:34:19 pp-sucks has joined
1348 2013-07-19 20:36:03 Krellan_ has joined
1349 2013-07-19 20:37:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It's not so bad to screw with the structure of the tree actually: nowhere is the # of txs in the tree committed too, so SPV code wouldn't know the difference if the merkle hash was H(tree + other stuff)
1350 2013-07-19 20:38:25 <petertodd> heck, that's *almost* a soft-fork...
1351 2013-07-19 20:39:28 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1352 2013-07-19 20:39:49 RoboTeddy has joined
1353 2013-07-19 20:39:55 agricocb has joined
1354 2013-07-19 20:40:24 RoboTeddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1355 2013-07-19 20:40:30 RoboTedd_ has joined
1356 2013-07-19 20:40:35 <pp-sucks> HELLO
1357 2013-07-19 20:40:52 * sipa puts in some earplugs
1358 2013-07-19 20:41:57 <pp-sucks> How can I obtain blocks that were orphaned on March 12?
1359 2013-07-19 20:42:22 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1360 2013-07-19 20:42:24 <sipa> anyone with a block chain database from before that data likely has them
1361 2013-07-19 20:43:22 <petertodd> sipa: what'd it take to have a block->next block index?
1362 2013-07-19 20:43:48 <sipa> petertodd: nothing, all blocks are individually loaded at starup
1363 2013-07-19 20:43:54 <sipa> you can build that index while loading
1364 2013-07-19 20:44:01 <petertodd> sipa: ah, nice, sounds cheap
1365 2013-07-19 20:44:11 <petertodd> oh, mind, I'm thinking for orphans
1366 2013-07-19 20:44:23 <sipa> yes, next block in chain is trivial of course
1367 2013-07-19 20:44:35 <petertodd> so the index is txid->offset, including orphans right?
1368 2013-07-19 20:44:38 <sipa> orphans or inactive blocks?
1369 2013-07-19 20:44:49 alexwaters has joined
1370 2013-07-19 20:44:51 <petertodd> what's the difference?
1371 2013-07-19 20:44:59 <sipa> orphan means 'no parent'
1372 2013-07-19 20:45:13 <petertodd> oh, right, yeah, stupid terminology
1373 2013-07-19 20:45:15 <petertodd> yes, inactive
1374 2013-07-19 20:45:24 <sipa> inactive/extinct/stale/side/orphan means 'part of the block tree, but not in the chain currently marked best'
1375 2013-07-19 20:45:38 <sipa> yes, all are stored
1376 2013-07-19 20:45:49 <petertodd> cool, I'll go write that
1377 2013-07-19 20:45:56 <sipa> the blocks/index/ db used to be stored in blktree/
1378 2013-07-19 20:46:05 <sipa> because it literally is an index into the block tree
1379 2013-07-19 20:46:18 <sipa> no 'chain' concept exists there
1380 2013-07-19 20:46:26 <petertodd> interesting
1381 2013-07-19 20:46:34 alexwaters has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1382 2013-07-19 20:46:46 alexwaters has joined
1383 2013-07-19 20:46:46 alexwaters has quit (Changing host)
1384 2013-07-19 20:46:46 alexwaters has joined
1385 2013-07-19 20:46:54 <petertodd> so what about actual orphans? I know we try to retrieve parents - do they wind up on disk?
1386 2013-07-19 20:46:58 <sipa> no
1387 2013-07-19 20:47:03 <sipa> orphans are only kept in memory
1388 2013-07-19 20:47:11 <sipa> while their parents are being requested
1389 2013-07-19 20:47:18 <petertodd> right, so it's a hidiously expensive DoS attack possibility...
1390 2013-07-19 20:47:22 bmcgee has joined
1391 2013-07-19 20:47:24 <petertodd> (except on testnet)
1392 2013-07-19 20:47:27 <sipa> yup
1393 2013-07-19 20:47:33 stevedekorte has quit (Quit: stevedekorte)
1394 2013-07-19 20:47:39 <petertodd> oh well, far from the only one...
1395 2013-07-19 20:47:44 <sipa> it's actually only due to frequent checkpoints that this is kept expensive
1396 2013-07-19 20:48:01 <sipa> ;;diff
1397 2013-07-19 20:48:02 <gribble> 2.61628756825699E7
1398 2013-07-19 20:48:02 <petertodd> another good argument for blockheader retrieval
1399 2013-07-19 20:48:08 <sipa> yup
1400 2013-07-19 20:48:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's weird how you say the same thing as me so often.
1401 2013-07-19 20:48:31 <petertodd> well, to implement partial UTXO mode first step would be blockheaders + reverse header sync I think
1402 2013-07-19 20:48:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm only convinced about that since we calculated it together :)
1403 2013-07-19 20:48:42 <sipa> ar your place
1404 2013-07-19 20:49:14 stalled has joined
1405 2013-07-19 20:49:19 <gmaxwell> hah.
1406 2013-07-19 20:49:40 <sipa> ;;calc log([diff])/log(4)*2016
1407 2013-07-19 20:49:42 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
1408 2013-07-19 20:49:57 gst has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1409 2013-07-19 20:50:06 <sipa> ;;calc log(26162875)/log(4)*2016
1410 2013-07-19 20:50:07 <gribble> 24838.1458914
1411 2013-07-19 20:50:16 <pp-sucks> So are there tools or services to retrieve arbitrary blocks? I have some in my local database, but not all.
1412 2013-07-19 20:51:12 <sipa> ;;calc log(26162875)/log(4)*2016*14*4
1413 2013-07-19 20:51:12 <gribble> 1390936.16992
1414 2013-07-19 20:51:28 gst has joined
1415 2013-07-19 20:51:30 <sipa> ;;calc log(26162875)/log(4)*14*4
1416 2013-07-19 20:51:30 <gribble> 689.948496983
1417 2013-07-19 20:51:37 <sipa> right, about 2 years
1418 2013-07-19 20:51:45 <gmaxwell> pp-sucks: go offer someone a couple bitcents to zip up a blockchain from a node that saw the fork.
1419 2013-07-19 20:52:15 <sipa> so if the longest checkpoint is 690 days old, you can do 1-difficulty orphans that will be accepted
1420 2013-07-19 20:52:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, you don't have to get it down to 1 to be a threat...
1421 2013-07-19 20:53:20 <sipa> every 2.8 weeks less makes it a factor 2 harder
1422 2013-07-19 20:53:45 <sipa> 20 days, say
1423 2013-07-19 20:53:50 <pp-sucks> gmaxwell, sounds like a plan, thanks.
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1435 2013-07-19 21:11:07 <bmcgee> hi all. Am i right in thinking when using getblocktemplate a miner is expected to use the target field if present to determine when to submit, with this superceding the bits field? nothing needs enabled on the miner for this, it should detect the presence of the target field and act accordingly?
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1451 2013-07-19 21:52:26 <diki> 5K7bfXtKC7sZgcSGQcwNxwEvwbyHr9P2dWgwrb7hnQ3hRT8yiqy
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1458 2013-07-19 21:58:56 <MC1984> change it diki
1459 2013-07-19 21:59:08 <diki> ?
1460 2013-07-19 21:59:20 <MC1984> looks like a password
1461 2013-07-19 21:59:29 <diki> looks like a private key to me
1462 2013-07-19 21:59:43 <MC1984> lol just as bad
1463 2013-07-19 21:59:54 <diki> I intentionally posted it
1464 2013-07-19 22:00:10 <MC1984> oh um ok
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1466 2013-07-19 22:02:07 pp-sucks has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1467 2013-07-19 22:02:51 <diki> I am feeling generous, how about another round?
1468 2013-07-19 22:03:42 <MC1984> i dont ven have a b.i account
1469 2013-07-19 22:04:11 <diki> wif private keys can be imported and exported on the fly in the -qt client
1470 2013-07-19 22:04:22 <diki> 5HzU2xfm5exFh5XrpyttSJg42aiw7Thz9m3JYx3HJFTnvM2YHd8
1471 2013-07-19 22:04:38 <MC1984> i dont have one running lol
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1476 2013-07-19 22:08:59 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1477 2013-07-19 22:12:55 <diki> I wonder who 1L5J8cu38CSMNcoACor8hui3QY13pP4mH4  is
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1484 2013-07-19 22:34:24 <diki> Well, I was able to recoup the btc I just sent, so there may be a round three :)
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