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12 2013-07-23 00:13:55 <ahmedbodi> !seen doublec
13 2013-07-23 00:13:56 <gribble> doublec was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 23 minutes and 49 seconds ago: <doublec> ahmedbodi: yes
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38 2013-07-23 00:34:50 <maaku> the CTxUndo does not store metadata -- version, coinbase flag, height; where is this information pulled from when the undo data is used?
39 2013-07-23 00:35:01 <sipa> maaku: the blocks
40 2013-07-23 00:35:08 <sipa> wait
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42 2013-07-23 00:35:18 <sipa> it does store metadata, afaik
43 2013-07-23 00:35:30 <sipa> if it's the last output of a transaction being spent
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45 2013-07-23 00:36:06 <maaku> ack you are right
46 2013-07-23 00:36:07 <maaku> thank you
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51 2013-07-23 00:40:06 <maaku> actually it looks like the height and coinbase flags are always stored. is there a reason for that?
52 2013-07-23 00:40:14 <maaku> is that because of non-unique txids?
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56 2013-07-23 00:42:15 <sipa> well the fields are always present
57 2013-07-23 00:42:24 <sipa> but afaik they are 0 and ignored for non-last outputs
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59 2013-07-23 00:42:41 <sipa> the version is optimized away if height=0
60 2013-07-23 00:43:10 <sipa> (which means either genesis block - for which you don't care about a version - or non-last output)
61 2013-07-23 00:43:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Luke-Jr, petertodd: Actually, the folks at opensource.com have been poking me for content. It is tempting to post a version of this admonishment there, where it would reach the Fedora community.
62 2013-07-23 00:44:51 <sipa> maaku: actually, disconnectblock even verifies whether height==0 of an output being reversed corresponds to its idea of whether it's the last one
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64 2013-07-23 00:45:19 <maaku> sipa: thank you
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73 2013-07-23 00:46:33 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: You cool with the distribution comment message? http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130722-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md
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78 2013-07-23 00:47:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes. except what is the hex at the beginning?
79 2013-07-23 00:48:06 <warren> gavinandresen: looks like a petertodd timestamp
80 2013-07-23 00:48:15 <warren> oh wait, just a block hash?
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82 2013-07-23 00:48:30 <gavinandresen> gratuitous geekiness
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85 2013-07-23 00:48:38 <warren> for the entire doc to be timestamped
86 2013-07-23 00:49:21 <gavinandresen> It has a date in it, which will be gpg signed... (date is wrong for me, by the way, it is the 23'rd here...)
87 2013-07-23 00:49:40 <sipa> gavinandresen: yeah, the US is always a bit behind :)
88 2013-07-23 00:50:52 <maaku> sipa: ah ok, i see. Spend() only sets the metadata if it's the last output, so for all non-final outputs the serialization of nHeight<<1+fCoinBase is 0x00
89 2013-07-23 00:51:11 <sipa> maaku: right, indeed
90 2013-07-23 00:51:38 <sipa> it's a weird mix of combinatios of values and conditionals
91 2013-07-23 00:52:08 <sipa> it was originally desiged to just get an idea of how small a dataset the UTXO set could be reduced to
92 2013-07-23 00:52:49 <sipa> so there are many of these tricks... many are really overkill and probably not worth the CPU usage
93 2013-07-23 00:53:02 <maaku> ok that makes sense, and yes it is as compact as you can get
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95 2013-07-23 00:53:11 <sipa> oh far from it
96 2013-07-23 00:53:32 <sipa> it's sort of the best you can do with byte-level rule-based serializations
97 2013-07-23 00:53:45 <maaku> yes, that's what I meant ;)
98 2013-07-23 00:53:50 <sipa> but you could define custom entropy coders for this data :p
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100 2013-07-23 00:55:12 <sipa> but for example something like not storing the number of unspentness bitvector bytes, but reducing it by one whe the first 2 outputs are not set
101 2013-07-23 00:55:18 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: petertodd suggested the block hash as a timestamp; should I remove it and update the day?
102 2013-07-23 00:55:37 <sipa> the expected effect on the UTXO set is probably less than a byte
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104 2013-07-23 00:56:04 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: yes
105 2013-07-23 00:56:53 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130723-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md 64bc8b77b58eed9c8f1ab1206f6eaac2af164338a67fb597807105f9a4010381
106 2013-07-23 00:57:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: you okay with the text now too?
107 2013-07-23 00:57:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes
108 2013-07-23 00:57:37 <sipa> nit: use [1] instead of (1) for the references?
109 2013-07-23 00:57:57 <sipa> or does that interact badly with markdown formatting?
110 2013-07-23 00:59:36 <sipa> i don't understand 'in addition to
111 2013-07-23 00:59:37 <sipa> ensuring that security-critical fixes can be applied once'
112 2013-07-23 00:59:57 <sipa> do you mean "such as ensuring ..."
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114 2013-07-23 01:00:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: agreed, artifact of editing down from a longer version.
115 2013-07-23 01:00:32 <sipa> now it sounds as if that ensuring is not part of "variety of good reasons"
116 2013-07-23 01:00:50 <gmaxwell> (there was a longer list there at one point)
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118 2013-07-23 01:00:57 <maaku> square braces are standard reference format, IIRC (would be square brace at the bottom too)
119 2013-07-23 01:01:03 <maaku> for markdown
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121 2013-07-23 01:01:20 <sipa> in stack exchange, that would cause the links to be inlined even
122 2013-07-23 01:01:33 <sipa> not sure if that is standard MD
123 2013-07-23 01:11:30 <petertodd> s/in addition to/including/
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125 2013-07-23 01:13:00 <petertodd> warren, Luke-Jr: in the literature that's called a random beacon FWIW; proves something was created after a date, although frankly it's mostly geekyness - what's usful re: signatures is proving they were created before some date so if the private keys are compromised/expired you can still validate them
126 2013-07-23 01:13:40 <petertodd> warren, Luke-Jr: I have a script to put blockhashes in my email sigs for fun
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128 2013-07-23 01:14:28 <petertodd> warren, Luke-Jr: When you think about it, without a proper timestamp a random beacon doesn't prove anything at all.
129 2013-07-23 01:15:07 <gmaxwell> If only someone ran a globally visible random beacon service that carries validated timestamps. :P
130 2013-07-23 01:15:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I know right? Preferably decentralized, and open
131 2013-07-23 01:16:14 <gmaxwell> but s'not like we need one for this. :P
132 2013-07-23 01:18:30 <petertodd> Careful, I'll suggest we put it into the blockchain...
133 2013-07-23 01:19:07 <Luke-Jr> square brackets on refs then? but that breaks github markdown for the footnotes.. I think, need to check
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135 2013-07-23 01:20:39 <petertodd> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=260898.0 <- someone
136 2013-07-23 01:20:47 <petertodd> someone's implementing mike's oracles apparently...
137 2013-07-23 01:21:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: also the other copyedit from sipa.
138 2013-07-23 01:21:26 <petertodd> doesn't understand that sequence numbers are useless - gotta update the wiki on that
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140 2013-07-23 01:24:11 <sipa> an earlier version had testing instructions
141 2013-07-23 01:24:19 <sipa> perhaps they don't belong in this text
142 2013-07-23 01:24:31 <sipa> but having them listed in some document in our source tree probably makes sense
143 2013-07-23 01:25:20 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
144 2013-07-23 01:25:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: I started writing one for the tree.
145 2013-07-23 01:25:52 <gmaxwell> Still needs more editing. But I agree.
146 2013-07-23 01:25:53 <gmaxwell> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b1WKdvUl8K8mdNA9yTx2ATg97tpWPEL8NUpWRTob5Tw/edit
147 2013-07-23 01:27:37 <Luke-Jr> what other copyedit from sipa? :/
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153 2013-07-23 01:29:14 <sipa> 02:59:21 < sipa> i don't understand 'in addition to
154 2013-07-23 01:29:14 <sipa> 02:59:22 < sipa> ensuring that security-critical fixes can be applied once'
155 2013-07-23 01:29:14 <sipa> 02:59:42 < sipa> do you mean "such as ensuring ..."
156 2013-07-23 01:29:15 <gmaxwell> 17:57 < sipa> nit: use [1] instead of (1) for the references?
157 2013-07-23 01:29:22 <gmaxwell> if it's not bad
158 2013-07-23 01:29:26 <gmaxwell> and 18:11 < petertodd> s/in addition to/including/
159 2013-07-23 01:29:33 <gmaxwell> oops
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161 2013-07-23 01:30:13 <Luke-Jr> square brackets at the end break github's markdown: https://gist.github.com/luke-jr/6058439
162 2013-07-23 01:30:47 <Luke-Jr> well, sortof
163 2013-07-23 01:30:51 <Luke-Jr> it's not unreadable either
164 2013-07-23 01:31:22 <sipa> you may need to indent them
165 2013-07-23 01:31:55 <Luke-Jr> that makes it think it's code
166 2013-07-23 01:32:18 * sipa .sleep(21600);
167 2013-07-23 01:32:18 <Luke-Jr> err
168 2013-07-23 01:32:34 <Luke-Jr> yeah
169 2013-07-23 01:32:59 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130723-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md a3e5297322b2fb302a4fb1a112a80bb275b0457adc5f1849cb78e0006ebcdf7d
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173 2013-07-23 01:35:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: can we get a gpg --clearsign on that file from you?
174 2013-07-23 01:36:21 <gmaxwell> I wanted to do the gpg multisig thing. I think thats neat, and having multiple names on it helps make it clear that its not just a single premadonna complaining that someone might move his cheese.
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176 2013-07-23 01:37:58 <SomeoneWeird> i can sign it! but that won't mean anything :P
177 2013-07-23 01:39:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: one catch re: multisig is you'll need to have multiple Hash: lines for every algorithm people use, just so you know
178 2013-07-23 01:39:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: probably just SHA1 and SHA256 of course, no big deal
179 2013-07-23 01:39:47 * SomeoneWeird is using DES
180 2013-07-23 01:39:57 <petertodd> weird
181 2013-07-23 01:40:00 <petertodd> :P
182 2013-07-23 01:41:54 <gmaxwell> petertodd: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/try.txt < try to compose with me to see how that works.
183 2013-07-23 01:43:12 <gmaxwell> the comment trick is neat, though really we could leave the names off, if you care who's signing it you could validate the signatures. :P
184 2013-07-23 01:43:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ha
185 2013-07-23 01:43:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: gimmie 40 minutes, just about to leave work, don't have PGP keys here
186 2013-07-23 01:44:32 <gmaxwell> fair enough, looks like sipa expired so if it'll be tomorrow I think. No biggie, gives some time to work on testing instructions to stick into git.
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191 2013-07-23 01:56:33 <midnightmagic> Does anyone have an archive of the pre-bitcointalk forum that was hosted on sourceforge?
192 2013-07-23 01:56:40 <gmaxwell> I don't.
193 2013-07-23 01:57:12 <midnightmagic> Satoshi said he moved over some messages but..
194 2013-07-23 01:57:15 <gmaxwell> I really wish SSL were designed in such a way that you could pre-sign the site and keep the keys offline.
195 2013-07-23 01:58:00 <gmaxwell> it would be pretty neat if the bitcoin.org site could be secured in such a way that short of ordering a CA to make a fake cert you couldn't just order any party to change the content.
196 2013-07-23 01:58:40 <gmaxwell> There is even a way to securely multi-party split an RSA private key... so if it were just an RSA signature it could be done. alas.
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201 2013-07-23 02:08:30 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/grayleonard/bitcoin/commit/bd8420dda743c36940d3986fb7e81a2f195495f8#L0R488
202 2013-07-23 02:08:53 <gmaxwell> I'm so sad that this apparently _isn't_ our first case of someone trying to slip in a really obvious backdoor.
203 2013-07-23 02:09:33 <Krellan_> getting a backdoor into bitcoin would be second only to getting a backdoor into ssh
204 2013-07-23 02:09:44 <Krellan_> as far as financial incentives go
205 2013-07-23 02:10:24 <midnightmagic> lol
206 2013-07-23 02:10:51 <midnightmagic> that's pretty hilarious.
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211 2013-07-23 02:12:47 <jgarzik> its. freakin. Basic. auth. sigh.
212 2013-07-23 02:13:10 <jgarzik> why backdoor something that's already a door swinging wide open ;p
213 2013-07-23 02:13:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: 'cause someone who could query it could still crack it even if you _never_ used it, which is a little surprising.
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216 2013-07-23 02:14:02 <turboroot> reminds me of this included in a wordpress pull request: https://github.com/maxymax/WordPress/commit/2fa93590c7881fab043be7b8b51358894dbc1466
217 2013-07-23 02:14:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I just meant in terms of social engineering. It's not a place in the code someone would patch for a timing attack.
218 2013-07-23 02:14:35 <Luke-Jr> IMO hash the correct password, the password attempt, and compare that
219 2013-07-23 02:14:39 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it's not actually a backdoor, unless I'm misreading the code, but I had to cross my eyes to convince myself of that.
220 2013-07-23 02:14:45 <Luke-Jr> and hash the correct one at startup
221 2013-07-23 02:14:47 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, HTTP Digest auth
222 2013-07-23 02:14:58 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: yes?
223 2013-07-23 02:15:02 <Luke-Jr> I'm just addressing timing attack
224 2013-07-23 02:15:32 <Luke-Jr> if you're hashing the passwords to check, the timing is not quite as useful
225 2013-07-23 02:15:34 <jgarzik> RPC: Avoid cleartext passwords by default https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1986
226 2013-07-23 02:16:20 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: yep, it's in next-test although you closed it..
227 2013-07-23 02:16:48 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Changes of this sort, even if correct, fall into the category of pointless microoptimization at best
228 2013-07-23 02:17:05 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: so right now there are some (crazy, stupid) people with the rpc exposed to the internet. Assuming I have good enough connectivity to them I can crack the RPC.
229 2013-07-23 02:17:15 <gmaxwell> I don't think fixing that is pointeless microoptimization.
230 2013-07-23 02:17:59 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
231 2013-07-23 02:18:19 <gmaxwell> Though, uh, I'm certantly not willing to take a sketchy fix for it.
232 2013-07-23 02:18:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, you don't address it with a hack. the root problem is addressed with turning off Basic auth for Digest and similar, stronger measures.
233 2013-07-23 02:19:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: back
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236 2013-07-23 02:20:16 <jgarzik> I think with sufficient messaging we can turn off Basic auth by default
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238 2013-07-23 02:20:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm ducky with digest auth.
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241 2013-07-23 02:23:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/yYur8wrL
242 2013-07-23 02:23:12 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: n^n=0, |= 0 is 0. what's nResult prior to that snippet? If it's initialized, then ++nResult is always 1; but the comparison is not constant-time so it's just adding a constant to the work done for the length. Also, if it is always 1, then is it possible a compiler would optimize that whole routine away?
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244 2013-07-23 02:23:48 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: yea I advised above that the compiler would probably optimize that whole thing away.
245 2013-07-23 02:23:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: works on my end
246 2013-07-23 02:23:55 <midnightmagic> oh
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248 2013-07-23 02:24:17 <Luke-Jr> imo, hash the password, compare every byte, incrementing some register whether right/wrong, and then when all done, check if the "correct" register is 32 (perfect match)
249 2013-07-23 02:24:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if we're going to hash, why don't we just force digest auth?
250 2013-07-23 02:24:41 <Luke-Jr> maybe check that the correct register isn't the incorrect one too
251 2013-07-23 02:24:43 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Aaargh lol you've been training me for so long to assume you're right about things I've stopped verifying.
252 2013-07-23 02:25:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: digest requires a challenge-response, no? not that requiring it is necessarily bad
253 2013-07-23 02:25:09 <midnightmagic> :)
254 2013-07-23 02:25:10 <petertodd> midnightmagic: <gmaxwell>: midnightmagic is a stupid head
255 2013-07-23 02:25:10 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, correct.
256 2013-07-23 02:25:11 Tykling has joined
257 2013-07-23 02:25:19 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, Amazon S3 (HMAC-based) does not.
258 2013-07-23 02:25:26 * midnightmagic mails a bear to petertodd
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260 2013-07-23 02:25:48 <jgarzik> thus HTTP Digest requires one more round trip than Amazon S3.
261 2013-07-23 02:25:49 * petertodd is Canadian, is glad to know his other bear will be less lonely now.
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264 2013-07-23 02:26:31 <midnightmagic> petertodd: lol but what *kind* of Canadian are you!
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266 2013-07-23 02:26:35 <jgarzik> HMAC-SHA1 to be specific: http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonS3/latest/dev/RESTAuthentication.html
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268 2013-07-23 02:27:06 <petertodd> midnightmagic: stereotypical
269 2013-07-23 02:27:24 <jgarzik> Could also remove all authentication... and !SSL
270 2013-07-23 02:27:38 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: then I can't allow anonymous SSH to my system!
271 2013-07-23 02:27:38 <jgarzik> pass the buck ;p
272 2013-07-23 02:27:41 <gmaxwell> basically every http library should have support for digest auth so in theory requiring it should create no extra burden. I don't think the extra roundtrip is bad for anyone, or at least the persistance ...
273 2013-07-23 02:27:42 <petertodd> jgarzik: People who need auth/ssl can always use socat
274 2013-07-23 02:27:44 Subo1978_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
275 2013-07-23 02:28:12 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
276 2013-07-23 02:28:13 <jgarzik> I coded Amazon S3-like, and am happy to code Digest auth
277 2013-07-23 02:28:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, but setting up SSL correctly is going to increase actual compromises from oral-use-of-suppositories.
278 2013-07-23 02:28:36 <gmaxwell> :P
279 2013-07-23 02:28:49 paybitcoin has joined
280 2013-07-23 02:29:00 <gmaxwell> gotta consider the actual effective security, not the security you get from spherical cow users.
281 2013-07-23 02:29:47 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
282 2013-07-23 02:29:55 <gmaxwell> Wanna go much further: fuck this tcp shit, unix domain sockets forever.
283 2013-07-23 02:29:57 <gmaxwell> :P
284 2013-07-23 02:29:58 <Luke-Jr> it'd be nice if we didn't need to implement a HTTP server and could just use some library..
285 2013-07-23 02:30:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ooh, I like that idea
286 2013-07-23 02:30:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: then we can throw away HTTP too, and just do a persistent JSON-RPC socket <.<
287 2013-07-23 02:31:06 <Luke-Jr> maybe stratum-compatible
288 2013-07-23 02:31:37 <Luke-Jr> or protobuf since Gavin's pulling that in anyway (and get rid of JSON)â¦
289 2013-07-23 02:31:50 amiller has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
290 2013-07-23 02:32:12 c0rw1n has joined
291 2013-07-23 02:32:16 <gmaxwell> our poor users.
292 2013-07-23 02:33:20 Guest33775 has joined
293 2013-07-23 02:34:42 <Luke-Jr> lol
294 2013-07-23 02:35:00 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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296 2013-07-23 02:35:54 <Ry4an> there's a protobuff succesor byt he original author that looks pretty good
297 2013-07-23 02:36:01 <gmaxwell> of course there is.
298 2013-07-23 02:36:14 <petertodd> Ry4an: link?
299 2013-07-23 02:36:14 <Ry4an> he's since left google and seems to be enjoying fixing the things he didn't like about protobuf but could no longer change
300 2013-07-23 02:36:20 <Ry4an> digging
301 2013-07-23 02:36:30 <Luke-Jr> Anyone know what's up with this? https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Script&curid=106&diff=39730&oldid=39692
302 2013-07-23 02:36:38 <gmaxwell> This is the great thing about seralizer dohickies: there is an uncountably infinite design space. :P
303 2013-07-23 02:36:51 <Ry4an> http://kentonv.github.io/capnproto/
304 2013-07-23 02:36:55 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: weird
305 2013-07-23 02:37:05 <jgarzik> Satoshi even admitted he would have used a ser lib, if one had been well known and available
306 2013-07-23 02:37:09 <Ry4an> you can't do worse than bson (Mongo's binary json representation)
307 2013-07-23 02:37:14 <jgarzik> P2P + protobufs, anyone?
308 2013-07-23 02:37:15 * jgarzik runs
309 2013-07-23 02:37:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:Script
310 2013-07-23 02:37:31 <Ry4an> (well you can (ASN1) but no one does worse anymore :)
311 2013-07-23 02:37:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: ^
312 2013-07-23 02:38:11 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: if he'd done that we've have a much harder time fixing the @#$#@$ TXID non-canonical encoding stuff. :P
313 2013-07-23 02:38:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: gah, that guy obviously didn't actually look at that transaction, although I can see why he might think htat
314 2013-07-23 02:38:52 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, restore the text, update the description to make it clear that the btc isn't in the output.
315 2013-07-23 02:38:55 <Luke-Jr> Ry4an: little endian. :<
316 2013-07-23 02:39:17 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well intentioned edit on his part at least.
317 2013-07-23 02:40:02 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: maybe we can convince that guy to eliminate encoding redundancies if he hasn't already. :P
318 2013-07-23 02:40:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, wording was pretty bad come to think of it
319 2013-07-23 02:40:39 <Ry4an> Luke-Jr: I'm a network byte order person deep down, but I assume Kenton Varda had his reasons. Sounds like he's thought about this an awful lot
320 2013-07-23 02:41:00 <gmaxwell> amusing, capnproto sounds like formalizing what bitcoin has done. :P
321 2013-07-23 02:41:21 <Luke-Jr> Ry4an: "most CPUs are little endian"
322 2013-07-23 02:41:29 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: lol
323 2013-07-23 02:41:39 <gmaxwell> basically "the serialization is the in-memory ordering for some little endian protypical machine"
324 2013-07-23 02:42:09 <petertodd> I'd be more impressed if he made it possible to use either endian as needed...
325 2013-07-23 02:42:33 <Ry4an> sure we all blitted structs to disk in our early days, but numbered fields for backwards compatibility and container objects appearing entirely before their contained items is a step forward.
326 2013-07-23 02:43:22 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
327 2013-07-23 02:43:43 <petertodd> "However, since all these extra bytes are zeros, when bandwidth matters, we can apply an extremely fast Capân-Proto-specific compression scheme to remove them" <- I'll admit that's clever
328 2013-07-23 02:43:45 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sure, it does if you're not native.
329 2013-07-23 02:44:27 <gmaxwell> It's certantly nice to have a library that makes it all well formed and portable.
330 2013-07-23 02:44:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: where was that? must have missed it, all I see is "and even big-endian CPUs usually have instructions for reading little-endian data."
331 2013-07-23 02:44:47 <jgarzik> Most CPUs we care about in bitcoin-land are little endian.
332 2013-07-23 02:45:07 <jgarzik> "network byte order" is just a Sun marketing slogan.
333 2013-07-23 02:45:09 <gmaxwell> petertodd: they do, what I'm saying is it appears the library will use them for you.
334 2013-07-23 02:45:33 <Ry4an> jgarzik: then they got me when they got stephens
335 2013-07-23 02:45:50 <petertodd> jgarzik: "network byte order" was set in RFC's pre-sun though right?
336 2013-07-23 02:45:53 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Someone said something about blah blah network byte order to me recently and my response was "and you use portmapper too?"
337 2013-07-23 02:46:34 <gmaxwell> petertodd: "network byte order" is basically dead in the IETF now. (also as it people caring about byte vs octet)
338 2013-07-23 02:47:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, just saying the term pre-date's Suns marketing AFAIK
339 2013-07-23 02:47:56 <Ry4an> anyway, I can't vouch for cap'n proto from experience except to say that I almost prefer someone's 2nd attempt to solve a problem to their 1st. /me off to sleep
340 2013-07-23 02:48:02 agnostic98 has joined
341 2013-07-23 02:48:32 <Ry4an> +always
342 2013-07-23 02:49:48 <TheUni> are the big-endian problem areas in bitcoin known?
343 2013-07-23 02:50:35 <TheUni> those mind-numbing abstractions are relaxing to me at times, for some reason
344 2013-07-23 02:50:43 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
345 2013-07-23 02:53:23 <gmaxwell> TheUni: no. Luke started on a patch to make bitcoin run on BE but it wasn't complete.
346 2013-07-23 02:53:35 <gmaxwell> It's not particuarly hard: keep trying until it works.
347 2013-07-23 02:54:01 <gmaxwell> if someone wants to work on it, I can give you a shell on a debian PPC box. But I think mostly no one cares.
348 2013-07-23 02:54:10 h2odysee has joined
349 2013-07-23 02:54:26 <TheUni> i've got a few mips boards around, that's the only reason i was curious
350 2013-07-23 02:54:48 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
351 2013-07-23 02:55:12 <TheUni> mainly had something like dd-wrt in mind
352 2013-07-23 02:55:58 <gmaxwell> I think fixing it would be a good excercise. In general I think portability is valuable. Forces assumptions in the code to be make more clear, and running on weird systems can make rare bugs more obvious.
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355 2013-07-23 02:57:24 <TheUni> yep, we certainly share the same ideas wrt portability. imo it should run everywhere, then let users decide where it's actually useful to run. in the process, bugs get fixed and assumptions broken, and future targets/trends just work
356 2013-07-23 02:58:01 <Luke-Jr> off-topic: anyone know how viable it is to clone a SIM card, if only one is ever active?
357 2013-07-23 02:58:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that new sim attack probably makes it viable, though it sounds like you need to construct a des rainbow table to perform it.
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383 2013-07-23 03:36:42 <jgarzik> TheUni, picocoin works on BE as well as LE :)
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387 2013-07-23 03:41:54 <gmaxwell> Is ThePiachu here?
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481 2013-07-23 06:43:52 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: https://sites.google.com/site/forgottenemployee/
482 2013-07-23 06:44:10 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ^ and now for your daily fiction
483 2013-07-23 06:44:21 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes, it's an excellent work.
484 2013-07-23 06:44:30 <Diablo-D3> you already read it? :<
485 2013-07-23 06:44:40 <gmaxwell> I'm glad it's posted there, for years it was a PITA to find it on something awful every time I wanted to show it to someone!
486 2013-07-23 06:44:48 <gmaxwell> yea, like .. uh .. almost a decade ago? :P
487 2013-07-23 06:44:55 <Diablo-D3> #goddamnitsomuch
488 2013-07-23 06:45:02 <gmaxwell> but its good and I recommend it.
489 2013-07-23 06:45:13 <Diablo-D3> yeah I actually wish there was more to it
490 2013-07-23 06:45:58 <Diablo-D3> it almost reminds me of bofh
491 2013-07-23 06:46:15 CodeName has joined
492 2013-07-23 06:46:49 <gmaxwell> if you figure out a name for the style, â its one I enjoy.
493 2013-07-23 06:46:57 <Diablo-D3> yeah
494 2013-07-23 06:47:03 melvster_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
495 2013-07-23 06:47:34 <Diablo-D3> I think if the style is ever named, it should be named after Holden Caulfield
496 2013-07-23 06:48:02 <Diablo-D3> you know, in some way reference that character
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503 2013-07-23 07:03:06 <gwillen> that story is hilarious
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531 2013-07-23 08:01:01 <deego> <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: https://sites.google.com/site/forgottenemployee/ <<=== Diablo-D3 lol, thanks for that.
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552 2013-07-23 08:44:50 <phantomcircuit> deego, a truly epic story
553 2013-07-23 08:47:10 <Diablo-D3> harry potter and the department of safety
554 2013-07-23 08:47:11 * Diablo-D3 runs
555 2013-07-23 08:48:00 <t7> are bitcoins?
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590 2013-07-23 09:43:56 <swulf--> SendMoney() : Error: Transaction creation failed!keypool return 394407
591 2013-07-23 09:43:59 <swulf--> crazy
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664 2013-07-23 13:01:59 <jgarzik> mornin'
665 2013-07-23 13:02:45 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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667 2013-07-23 13:04:27 <t7> lol its 14:04
668 2013-07-23 13:04:33 <t7> you have a powercut or something
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670 2013-07-23 13:05:46 <t7> had*
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674 2013-07-23 13:07:48 <sipa> t7: the world is larger than your timezone :)
675 2013-07-23 13:08:56 <sipa> jgarzik: your http proposal caused quite some discussion :)
676 2013-07-23 13:09:32 <jgarzik> sipa, it's a new API, and everybody has their ideas for What A New API Should Look Like :)
677 2013-07-23 13:09:45 grau_ has joined
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679 2013-07-23 13:09:53 <sipa> jgarzik: that was hardly what the discussion was about
680 2013-07-23 13:10:17 <jgarzik> few programmers can resist shed painting while a new API is being designed
681 2013-07-23 13:10:47 <sipa> it wasn't about that at all
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696 2013-07-23 13:30:44 <t7> sipa did you write your own bignum stuff for your ecc thing you wrote ?
697 2013-07-23 13:31:03 <t7> (i remember before you said you used gmp)
698 2013-07-23 13:31:13 <t7> (but maybe you wrote your own since)
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724 2013-07-23 14:04:15 <sipa> t7: yes, of course
725 2013-07-23 14:04:20 random_cat has joined
726 2013-07-23 14:04:30 <sipa> t7: not a general purpose bignum though, only one modulo the field size
727 2013-07-23 14:05:23 <t7> ah im gonna take a look
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730 2013-07-23 14:06:50 <sipa> for scalars (which are modulo the order), i use gmp or openssl
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736 2013-07-23 14:16:01 <jgarzik> A lot (2) of orphans on test net this morning
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766 2013-07-23 15:01:44 * jgarzik rofls at the mention of XML as an output format for this HTTP REST interface in bitcoind
767 2013-07-23 15:01:57 <jgarzik> XML still exists? :)
768 2013-07-23 15:01:58 * jgarzik runs
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778 2013-07-23 15:12:43 <sipa> jgarzik: needs ASN.1 too!
779 2013-07-23 15:13:01 realzies has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
780 2013-07-23 15:15:02 <petertodd> jgarzik: XML + tonal
781 2013-07-23 15:15:26 * jgarzik shivers
782 2013-07-23 15:15:33 <sipa> oh, do everything in base58 while we're at it
783 2013-07-23 15:15:49 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
784 2013-07-23 15:16:01 <jgarzik> The URL should be programmable, enabling the user to select filters and conversions at runtime
785 2013-07-23 15:16:09 <petertodd> sipa: Have we thought about achieving I18N compliance?
786 2013-07-23 15:16:10 <jgarzik> GET /rest/tx/TX-HASH/json/xml/base68
787 2013-07-23 15:16:39 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, but also order should matter, the are filters and should be pipable
788 2013-07-23 15:17:43 <petertodd> jgarzik: and there's no reason why GET /rest/tx/TX-HASH/base58/base58/base58 shouldn't work, applying base58 three times
789 2013-07-23 15:17:44 <sipa> jgarzik: i think you should be able to put base58-encoded x86 assembly in the URL, to get the data processed by the filter implemented through it
790 2013-07-23 15:18:10 <sipa> we'll need to include qemu in our source code though
791 2013-07-23 15:18:14 <petertodd> sipa: ooh, good idea, it'd help with CALEA compliance too
792 2013-07-23 15:18:23 <jgarzik> well, I was just thinking about LLVM JIT :)
793 2013-07-23 15:18:34 * sipa is afraid to look up with CALEA is now...
794 2013-07-23 15:18:36 <jgarzik> but yes, we might have to embed LLVM to avoid fork risk
795 2013-07-23 15:18:54 <petertodd> Why not Java then? Write once, run anywhere!
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799 2013-07-23 15:21:36 <BlueMatt> oooo, I wanna play this game: dont forget to embed the jvm too
800 2013-07-23 15:22:10 pinkee is now known as realazthat
801 2013-07-23 15:22:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: Serious suggestion: remove all the script validation code from python-bitcoinlib. We keep telling people they can't reimplement it and get it right, and they should rely on bitcoind to do validation, so release a Bitcoin library that takes that advice as gospel. (obviously keep tx->block header validation)
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803 2013-07-23 15:23:05 <petertodd> BlueMatt: remember if you nest jvm's you make the n-th deep one more likely to achieve consensus. I'm sure 2^n more likely, or something. Maybe 2^-n
804 2013-07-23 15:25:13 <jgarzik> sipa, petertodd: Any other datums to export via REST? I think probably a /rest/chain/{bestHash, bestHeight, etc.} might be wanted?
805 2013-07-23 15:25:32 metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
806 2013-07-23 15:27:18 <sipa> jgarzik: i guess generally non-wallet stuff exported in getinfo, getpeerinfo, getmininginfo
807 2013-07-23 15:27:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: do you have a way to determine what data is available? (IE are tx's indexed etc?)
808 2013-07-23 15:27:39 <jgarzik> petertodd, not presently, no
809 2013-07-23 15:27:55 <petertodd> Actually, I don't think getinfo can report the status of txindex either come to think of it...
810 2013-07-23 15:28:02 <sipa> fTxIndex is set if the tx index is enabled
811 2013-07-23 15:28:20 <sipa> ^ gotta love globals
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813 2013-07-23 15:28:30 <petertodd> yeah...
814 2013-07-23 15:28:36 <sipa> it's trivial to report if we wanted to
815 2013-07-23 15:29:17 <petertodd> sipa: We should so code can test it. Would getchaininfo be useful? getinfo was supposed to be more of a wallet thing originally.
816 2013-07-23 15:29:32 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
817 2013-07-23 15:29:38 <petertodd> sipa: In the future getchaininfo might, say, report how far back we've verified.
818 2013-07-23 15:29:38 <sipa> petertodd: gettxoutsetinfo is pretty much a chainstate report
819 2013-07-23 15:30:00 <jgarzik> I really really do not want to touch wallet-related infos
820 2013-07-23 15:30:03 <sipa> petertodd: in my headers-first branch, there is a blocks: and headers: in getinfo
821 2013-07-23 15:30:04 <jgarzik> so no balances etc.
822 2013-07-23 15:30:07 <sipa> jgarzik: absolutely
823 2013-07-23 15:30:29 <sipa> petertodd: blocks is the height up until which you've built and verified the UTXO set
824 2013-07-23 15:30:30 <petertodd> sipa: True, on the other had, does the status of fFullTxSearchIndex or whatever it's called belong in gettxoutsetinfo?
825 2013-07-23 15:30:38 <sipa> petertodd: no
826 2013-07-23 15:30:39 <jgarzik> getinfo is also a kitchen sink
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828 2013-07-23 15:30:47 <petertodd> jgarzik: indeed
829 2013-07-23 15:30:54 <sipa> yeah, getinfo is ugly
830 2013-07-23 15:31:27 <petertodd> jgarzik: Counter-argument re: wallet: in the future we might want to say "lets depreciate json-rpc because no-one uses it anymore", then what?
831 2013-07-23 15:31:49 <petertodd> (json-rpc never got the support as a standard that pure REST has)
832 2013-07-23 15:32:18 <sipa> i really intend to continue with splitting bitcoind/bitcoin-qt into two processes (and later maybe two binaries), where one is full validation + blockchain and no wallet and only very minimal RPC, and the other is wallet/gui/rpc/...
833 2013-07-23 15:32:20 <jgarzik> petertodd, mental model: I'm working on fork(2)ing away the public blockchain engine from $everything_else. HTTP REST should just serve info from the public blockchain engine, IMO
834 2013-07-23 15:32:29 <sipa> with the wallet process being SPV
835 2013-07-23 15:32:46 <jgarzik> indeed
836 2013-07-23 15:33:00 <petertodd> Agreed on long term goal.
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838 2013-07-23 15:33:29 <petertodd> OK, in that case we can say that the /rest/ namespace can be duplicated freely, to make the point that the wallet absolutely must be separate from validation./
839 2013-07-23 15:34:02 <jgarzik> petertodd, what does "duplicated freely" mean, in this context?
840 2013-07-23 15:34:40 <petertodd> jgarzik: One day you'll have port 8332 which gives access to the validation engine REST interface, and, say, port 8331 which gives REST access to your wallet.
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842 2013-07-23 15:35:12 <jgarzik> I actually considered a separate port for HTTP REST
843 2013-07-23 15:35:24 <jgarzik> still might -- it was just easier this way, to piggyback on RPC port
844 2013-07-23 15:35:39 <petertodd> jgarzik: Sure, point being it'll be a different port than your wallet REST.
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848 2013-07-23 15:38:09 <petertodd> jgarzik: Another thought: one day pure-SPV-blockheader clients may be useful, and you'll want a daemon running on your system that lets apps query the best block header. It too can use that REST interface, except it's "getinfo" returns only the has-block-headers flag set to true.
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860 2013-07-23 16:00:01 <BlueMatt> aaaaaaannd...pull-tester now supports mempool testing (at least when I get home and restart it)
861 2013-07-23 16:00:21 <gmaxwell> Whats mempool testing mean?
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863 2013-07-23 16:00:40 <BlueMatt> arbitrary rules in the form of "at this point, mempool p2p command should return set X"
864 2013-07-23 16:00:47 <jgarzik> cool
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866 2013-07-23 16:00:51 <petertodd> BlueMatt: nifty
867 2013-07-23 16:01:04 <BlueMatt> currently only test is multi-block transaction resurrection (which is broken on master, I believe)
868 2013-07-23 16:01:08 <BlueMatt> but, its an easy fix
869 2013-07-23 16:01:38 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Does it query mempool via the mempool P2P command jgarzik did a BIP for awhile back?
870 2013-07-23 16:01:46 <BlueMatt> yea
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872 2013-07-23 16:02:09 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: does pulltester test bitcoinj code too? If it can test SPV wallet clients, I have another user...
873 2013-07-23 16:03:07 <sacredchao> Diablo-D3: Shut up.
874 2013-07-23 16:03:14 sserrano44 has joined
875 2013-07-23 16:03:52 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Cool. I did unittests for my cpfp mempool, and it was painful...
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877 2013-07-23 16:04:05 <BlueMatt> indeed, tests fail on master
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880 2013-07-23 16:04:06 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2851
881 2013-07-23 16:04:12 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: it does indirectly, only its full-verification engine though
882 2013-07-23 16:04:26 <BlueMatt> (it always tests that bitcoinj accepts the same as bitcoind when testing bitcoind)
883 2013-07-23 16:04:39 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: Id really like to implement wallet testing at some point, but I havent yet
884 2013-07-23 16:05:06 <BlueMatt> (eg rules that say "at this point, balance should be X if you count unconfirmed and Y if you dont")
885 2013-07-23 16:05:23 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Does the pull-tester do relay tests?
886 2013-07-23 16:05:32 <BlueMatt> no, another thing Id love to do
887 2013-07-23 16:05:44 <BlueMatt> (you mean multiple connections and check that it gets a inv?)
888 2013-07-23 16:05:49 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Exactly
889 2013-07-23 16:05:57 <BlueMatt> no, please implement
890 2013-07-23 16:06:02 <BlueMatt> that one should be easy
891 2013-07-23 16:06:04 <petertodd> BlueMatt: heh, gotta learn java...
892 2013-07-23 16:06:14 <BlueMatt> meh, thats not hard
893 2013-07-23 16:06:24 <sipa> petertodd: it's easy, start with C++ and forget everything cool
894 2013-07-23 16:06:26 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: oh this is part of pulltester? uh. but won't that mean that it now can't be used on $random_bitcoin_implementation?
895 2013-07-23 16:06:28 <sipa> petertodd: and memory management
896 2013-07-23 16:06:42 <petertodd> sipa: I was about to :( but then I was like :)
897 2013-07-23 16:06:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: was just about to ask the same thing
898 2013-07-23 16:07:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, its not only pull-tester
899 2013-07-23 16:07:02 <BlueMatt> its in the regular bitcoinj bitcoindcomparisontool that anyone can use
900 2013-07-23 16:07:02 sgstair has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
901 2013-07-23 16:07:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell, BlueMatt: make it easy for tests to be written in the form of "MEMPOOL SHALL NOT CONTAIN"
902 2013-07-23 16:07:20 Guest88034 has joined
903 2013-07-23 16:07:29 <BlueMatt> petertodd: right now it is mempool should be EXACTLY set X
904 2013-07-23 16:07:40 <sipa> BlueMatt: but it won't work on anything but bitcoind, I suppose?
905 2013-07-23 16:07:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Right thats what I meant to ask. Making it depend on the RPC will screw up the messaging we've been using of "you _must_ test your alt implementation with this"
906 2013-07-23 16:07:45 sgstair has joined
907 2013-07-23 16:07:46 <BlueMatt> should work
908 2013-07-23 16:07:56 <sipa> oh, the mempool P2P command!
909 2013-07-23 16:08:00 <BlueMatt> assuming it does transaction resurrection
910 2013-07-23 16:08:00 <gmaxwell> OH!
911 2013-07-23 16:08:01 <sipa> not the RPC one
912 2013-07-23 16:08:05 <BlueMatt> yea
913 2013-07-23 16:08:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: only reason Im still only maybe eventually gonna do wallet tests
914 2013-07-23 16:08:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: +1 Not to mention anyone who even just wants to change mempool logic.
915 2013-07-23 16:08:39 <gmaxwell> okay, well thats less bad.. the mempool rpc is not really a normative part of the protocol. But. okay!
916 2013-07-23 16:08:41 <sipa> yeah, mempool logic isn't normative...
917 2013-07-23 16:08:45 <BlueMatt> petertodd: yes, I plan on being very conservative with mempool logic requirements
918 2013-07-23 16:09:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: neither is the mempool p2p
919 2013-07-23 16:09:29 <BlueMatt> well, if your client doesnt do mempool tx resurrection, you can ignore those errors (they are a sparate counter)
920 2013-07-23 16:09:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if you could, it would be useful to have a --skip-mempool flag to make them easy to ignore without missing something important?
921 2013-07-23 16:10:42 Vinnie_win_m is now known as Vinnie_win
922 2013-07-23 16:11:36 <petertodd> --skip-mempool should actually only skip positive tests, IE the ones that check a tx is present.
923 2013-07-23 16:12:03 brson has joined
924 2013-07-23 16:12:03 <petertodd> IE you should be able to return an empty mempool at all times and pass the tests.
925 2013-07-23 16:13:23 <petertodd> Hmm... though even that's problematic: for replace-by-fee people are going to write tests that a double-spend wasn't accepted, and make that behavior normative...
926 2013-07-23 16:13:54 <petertodd> Let alone DoS attacks where you refuse one tx, thus allowing another as a double-spend.
927 2013-07-23 16:14:03 <petertodd> Gah, this is all looking like a bad idea. :(
928 2013-07-23 16:14:46 jgarzik has quit (Quit: apple apple apple)
929 2013-07-23 16:15:06 <petertodd> What you really want is closer to a test of what the UTXO set is, but we also don't want to expose that yet over P2P, nor do we have a standard to do so.
930 2013-07-23 16:15:45 <sipa> nor is it required for network conformance
931 2013-07-23 16:16:11 <petertodd> sipa: yup
932 2013-07-23 16:16:37 <petertodd> It's perfectly reasonable to have a node implementation that relays transactions without UTXO data at all provided you figure out how to solve the DoS attack problem.
933 2013-07-23 16:16:59 <petertodd> (as an extreme example)
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937 2013-07-23 16:20:24 <gmaxwell> Having a test for mempool restoration is pretty useful. We should have a test for that.
938 2013-07-23 16:20:30 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: at the end it prints counters for how many errors you have, in each category
939 2013-07-23 16:20:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so its easy enough
940 2013-07-23 16:21:31 <gmaxwell> petertodd: we have all kinds of tests for non-normative behavior. Non-normative tests are find and good and not harmful.
941 2013-07-23 16:22:37 daybyter has joined
942 2013-07-23 16:22:41 <gmaxwell> Though if the blocktester isn't super clear about what is a normative implementation independant test and that further discourages people from using it, thats not so good. I'm confident BlueMatt will continue to be reasonable wrt that.
943 2013-07-23 16:23:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Probably the thing to do is just have a core set of "you must do this" tests, and a second, easily switchable, set that can be customized for the particular codebase you're working on.
944 2013-07-23 16:24:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: will pulltester/... work with a headers-first sync?
945 2013-07-23 16:24:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, I want to be very conservative with tests that test any kind of mempool behavior aside from ones that are (not strictly, but close to) normative
946 2013-07-23 16:24:45 <sipa> as there are no getblocks/invs for example
947 2013-07-23 16:24:55 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: also, its not like I ever have time to write more tests, so...
948 2013-07-23 16:25:05 <davec> Hey guys, can you clarify if a block extends the block just before the current end of the main chain, but has more proof of work than the current end, should it switch?
949 2013-07-23 16:25:09 <davec> That is to say you already have block A -> block B (work value of 10). Then block B' shows up such that block A -> block B' (work value of 15). Does B win because it'
950 2013-07-23 16:25:24 <sipa> davec: indeed
951 2013-07-23 16:25:28 <petertodd> BlueMatt: yeah, and relaying behavior falls into that category too, again with the most restrictive way of looking at it leading to the degenerate "relay nothing" way of passing the test.
952 2013-07-23 16:25:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: it should appear to a client like the blocks are just being created (< checkpoints, initially no blocks available, sends invs, waits for getdatas) so in theory it should work
953 2013-07-23 16:25:31 <davec> it's already there, or B' because more proof of work?
954 2013-07-23 16:25:47 <sipa> davec: the switching criterion is "more proof of work"
955 2013-07-23 16:26:05 <petertodd> davec: we don't switch, only a longer chain makes a switch
956 2013-07-23 16:26:13 Jasmin68k has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
957 2013-07-23 16:26:37 <petertodd> davec: Rule is every block in the chain must meet a target difficulty, and the longest chain of valid blocks wins.
958 2013-07-23 16:26:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: stop saying longest!
959 2013-07-23 16:26:52 <sipa> petertodd: the chain with the most PoW wins
960 2013-07-23 16:27:02 <davec> I think it's more pow, not longest is why I'm asking
961 2013-07-23 16:27:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: everyone instantly thinks that means omre blocks!
962 2013-07-23 16:27:05 <davec> because:
963 2013-07-23 16:27:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Oh, then I'm genunely mistaken.
964 2013-07-23 16:27:17 <sipa> (which is only different from longest in case it crosses e retarget boundary and has a different timestamp(
965 2013-07-23 16:27:25 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
966 2013-07-23 16:27:28 <davec> but the block acceptance test seems to think the former
967 2013-07-23 16:27:29 <davec> The block acceptance tests seem to indicate it does not (https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts/blob/master/FullBlockTestGenerator.java#L141-L149)
968 2013-07-23 16:27:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: So it's most PoW, as measured by the target then?
969 2013-07-23 16:27:49 <Diablo-D3> [12:02:51] <sacredchao> Diablo-D3: Shut up.
970 2013-07-23 16:27:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sum(targets)
971 2013-07-23 16:27:52 <davec> However, from reading the bitcoind source code, it appears that is only true is the work value is *exactly* the same.
972 2013-07-23 16:27:53 <Diablo-D3> I didnt say anything.
973 2013-07-23 16:27:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea. Otherwise some dimbulb with a diff1 flood....
974 2013-07-23 16:27:55 <davec> The nChainWork field gets set to the prev (or 0 if not a prev) + the current work (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2096)
975 2013-07-23 16:27:59 <davec> Then later in ConnectBestBlock, it returns (no chain switch) if they are *exactly* the same (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1427-L1428)
976 2013-07-23 16:28:00 <sipa> davec: probably the test is written knowing that there is no retarget in between
977 2013-07-23 16:28:02 <davec> if they aren't, it continues on to push it on to the attach list if pindexTest->nChainWork > pindexBest->nChainWork (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1447-L1448)
978 2013-07-23 16:28:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah, right, brainfart there.
979 2013-07-23 16:28:09 <sipa> davec: so longest is a simplified criterion here
980 2013-07-23 16:28:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: (should have drunk my coffee...)
981 2013-07-23 16:28:22 <sipa> davec: which is equivalent here
982 2013-07-23 16:28:26 <davec> right, so B' wins in my original question
983 2013-07-23 16:28:56 <gmaxwell> davec: in the event of genuine ties you take what you got first. Otherwise the total sum difficulty wins and this behavior is important.
984 2013-07-23 16:29:07 <sipa> what he said
985 2013-07-23 16:29:07 <davec> to make sure. A -> B (work value 10), then B' shows up such that A -> B' (work value 15). B' wins
986 2013-07-23 16:29:19 <sipa> yup, but if B' also has work value 10, B wins
987 2013-07-23 16:29:29 <davec> right, ok thanks
988 2013-07-23 16:29:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ooooooo, I dont have any tests that test pow-vs-block-height distinction
989 2013-07-23 16:29:47 <davec> BlueMatt: correct and that's why I was trying to clairfy
990 2013-07-23 16:29:58 <davec> what happened is a block got generated that was *more* pow and we switched
991 2013-07-23 16:30:04 <davec> but the accpetance said we shouldn't have
992 2013-07-23 16:30:10 <gmaxwell> davec: right. If the code behaves another way thats a bug. A test is needed for that ASAP if there isn't a retarget-reorg yet.
993 2013-07-23 16:30:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, but by "sum difficulty" we mean the *targets* the blocks meet, not the actual difficulty as represented by the hashes. Like suppose every block was stupidly lucky, and had a hash way under the target, that's no better than a chain where the hashes just meet the target right?
994 2013-07-23 16:30:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: consider yourself "volunteered" to fix it :p
995 2013-07-23 16:31:03 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Yes. Targets are their difficulty. Hashes are just random numbers.
996 2013-07-23 16:31:14 <BlueMatt> sipa: well....I was planning on working late tonight......
997 2013-07-23 16:31:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ok good, small brainfart there. :)
998 2013-07-23 16:31:35 <gmaxwell> (though if there is a bug there, perhaps the bug is now normative... will have to reflect on the resulting state tranisitions)
999 2013-07-23 16:32:25 <runeks> Does anyone know a site that lists previous and current difficulties and their percentage increases? Looking for text, not graphs.
1000 2013-07-23 16:32:51 grau has joined
1001 2013-07-23 16:32:52 <sipa> runeks: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/blocks.txt
1002 2013-07-23 16:33:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: As in, if we applied 10x mining power to a re-org starting at block 1, that re-org should win due to larger sum difficulty even thought the # of blocks is shorter.
1003 2013-07-23 16:33:22 <davec> I don't think there is a bug in the bitcoind code. I think it's just the acceptance tests making the assumptionthe chain won't switch at the same length, which isn't the case based on what we discussed and my understanding of the bitcoind code.
1004 2013-07-23 16:33:22 <sipa> petertodd: indeed
1005 2013-07-23 16:33:37 <sipa> davec: the test isn't wrong, it's just specific
1006 2013-07-23 16:33:58 <sipa> davec: as the environment is totally controlled and it knows there is no different in PoW between the two chains
1007 2013-07-23 16:33:59 <runeks> sipa: Thanks sipa. But I'm looking for difficulties specifically (with percentage increases). Not a list of blocks and their difficulty.
1008 2013-07-23 16:34:14 <sipa> runeks: you can easily compute that from it
1009 2013-07-23 16:34:27 normanrichards has joined
1010 2013-07-23 16:34:43 <sipa> davec: but yes, in general, the rule is more complex
1011 2013-07-23 16:34:43 <runeks> sipa: Yeah I know. But I'm going to use it as a source. Would be nice to have it up on a website for everyone to check for themselves.
1012 2013-07-23 16:35:58 normanrichards has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1013 2013-07-23 16:36:28 <davec> sipa: thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to make sure I understood the bitcoind code correctly and implemented it right
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1016 2013-07-23 16:46:14 <gmaxwell> davec: one thing about your example is that that exact example shouldn't be possible.
1017 2013-07-23 16:46:36 <gmaxwell> davec: a->b->c a->b'->c' should be possible for c and c' to differ.
1018 2013-07-23 16:47:03 <gmaxwell> but unless I'm having a blond moment a->b and a->b' could never have b and b' have different work.
1019 2013-07-23 16:48:19 <gmaxwell> (because c's work is a function of b's timestamp (all assuming a retarget happens here))
1020 2013-07-23 16:49:20 <davec> gmaxwell: hmm I think you can because the work value is // (1 << 256) / (difficultyNum + 1)
1021 2013-07-23 16:49:53 <davec> oh I got you. Right it's the difficulty, not the resultant hash
1022 2013-07-23 16:50:41 <sipa> gmaxwell is right, i think
1023 2013-07-23 16:50:44 <gmaxwell> Yea, very important that its not the hash. The hash is a random number and doesn't signify the work, a precommitted target is needed to signify work.
1024 2013-07-23 16:50:45 <davec> and the difficulty really loses precision, so it's going to end up at the same number
1025 2013-07-23 16:51:13 <sipa> davec: you never reason in terms of "difficulty" internally
1026 2013-07-23 16:51:18 <petertodd> Just reviewed the code: AddToBlockIndex()->ConnectBestBlock() the latter compares only nChainWork vs. best known chain work, so no height involved just like sipa&gmaxwell said.
1027 2013-07-23 16:51:33 jgarzik has joined
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1029 2013-07-23 16:51:33 jgarzik has joined
1030 2013-07-23 16:51:33 <petertodd> Any objection to adding nChainWork to the info returned by getblock? Could be instructive.
1031 2013-07-23 16:52:15 <gmaxwell> petertodd: we log it in debug.log I don't see a problem in outputting it but then you get to shedpaint the form. :P
1032 2013-07-23 16:52:18 <sipa> davec: difficulty is human-readable conversion of other values
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1035 2013-07-23 16:52:49 <sipa> davec: in particular, work is defined as the cumulative int((2^256-1) / hash_target_of_block)
1036 2013-07-23 16:53:02 <sipa> and the hash_target_of_block is defined by all _previous_ blocks' timestamps
1037 2013-07-23 16:53:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Heh, it's stored as a uint256, so I'll just output the hash.
1038 2013-07-23 16:53:44 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Oh wait, endian... gah.
1039 2013-07-23 16:53:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It will be something you can put into a calculator. :)
1040 2013-07-23 16:54:13 _ingsoc has joined
1041 2013-07-23 16:54:23 <davec> sipa: understood. Actually there is a +1 on the denominator to prevent divide by zero on max work
1042 2013-07-23 16:54:25 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1043 2013-07-23 16:54:31 <davec> but that is my understanding as well
1044 2013-07-23 16:55:07 <sipa> davec: you're right
1045 2013-07-23 16:55:17 melvster_ has joined
1046 2013-07-23 16:55:34 <sipa> petertodd: i've been thinking about a "normalized confirmations" based on it
1047 2013-07-23 16:55:47 <petertodd> sipa: me too
1048 2013-07-23 16:56:07 <sipa> petertodd: (nChainWork_of_top - nChainWork_of_involved_block) / hash_target_of_top
1049 2013-07-23 16:56:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: should it be of top or highest ever?
1050 2013-07-23 16:57:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: good question
1051 2013-07-23 16:57:08 <petertodd> sipa: That you get units of hashes is lovely, and you can apply hand-waving conversion factors to turn it into joules -> big macs.
1052 2013-07-23 16:57:39 <gmaxwell> petertodd: pounds of spam.
1053 2013-07-23 16:58:07 <jgarzik> It permits handwaving in the direction of "biggest supercomputer in the world"
1054 2013-07-23 16:58:56 <gmaxwell> At the moment sipa's metric results in some scary numbers.
1055 2013-07-23 16:58:59 * sipa prefers EeV
1056 2013-07-23 16:59:15 <sipa> yeah, nothing is buried more than 4 motnhs :)
1057 2013-07-23 16:59:54 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1058 2013-07-23 17:00:04 dust-otc has joined
1059 2013-07-23 17:00:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: I like highest ever, except that its a somewhat noisy metric at constant rate.
1060 2013-07-23 17:00:19 <petertodd> Hey!!! So 250TeraHash/second / (6.5GigaHash/second / 60 watts) * 10 minutes = 1.4x10^9 J = 0.95 * energy in a typical lightning bolt
1061 2013-07-23 17:00:36 jchp_ is now known as jchp
1062 2013-07-23 17:00:53 <gmaxwell> Blockbolt.
1063 2013-07-23 17:01:23 <petertodd> Also 629 big macs.
1064 2013-07-23 17:01:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: square root of the exponential average of the square of the difficulty, with a time factor of 1 year
1065 2013-07-23 17:01:34 <sipa> *exponentially decaying
1066 2013-07-23 17:04:01 peetaur2 has joined
1067 2013-07-23 17:04:24 <gmaxwell> I'm prone to liking that sort of thing, though 1 year is a bit long, and in practice highest ever would probably be almost the same.
1068 2013-07-23 17:05:05 <petertodd> Interesting: * $0.1/kWh = $40/confirmation, obviously capital cost constrained.
1069 2013-07-23 17:05:17 agricocb has joined
1070 2013-07-23 17:05:46 <petertodd> (and gmaxwell/jgarzik strippers and booze fund constrained)
1071 2013-07-23 17:06:39 * jgarzik leaves the math wanking to others ;p
1072 2013-07-23 17:06:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, but i can well imagine that if the highest ever is a long time ago, it has actually become harder to amass an equivalent hash power again
1073 2013-07-23 17:07:01 <jgarzik> I'm a builder, happily riding on the intellectual coattails of others.
1074 2013-07-23 17:07:04 tonikt has joined
1075 2013-07-23 17:07:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: its true, and if that ever happens you can upgrade your software. :P
1076 2013-07-23 17:07:56 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1077 2013-07-23 17:08:06 <petertodd> jgarzik: glad to hear, so um, how's my fidelity bonds coming along? :p
1078 2013-07-23 17:08:10 * petertodd is a wanker
1079 2013-07-23 17:08:28 <gmaxwell> The first step is admitting you have a problem.
1080 2013-07-23 17:08:44 datagutt has joined
1081 2013-07-23 17:09:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I should start a troll-talk self-help group.
1082 2013-07-23 17:09:59 <jgarzik> petertodd, Still trying to decide on P2P layer: C++/bitcoind is pretty rock solid. Creating a new P2P network by forking bitcoind would be a path of least resistance. It is also an ugly path, with much hacking of code. JavaScript or Python would result in a smaller codebase, but all the P2P/anti-DoS code in bitcoind must be replicated.
1083 2013-07-23 17:10:23 <jgarzik> ...and ultimately, that code SHOULD be replicated into non-bitcoind projects for better network healthy
1084 2013-07-23 17:10:26 <jgarzik> but that's work+++
1085 2013-07-23 17:10:43 <jgarzik> easiest is also the ugliest: fork bitcoind, hack in IRCd proxy
1086 2013-07-23 17:10:54 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1087 2013-07-23 17:11:07 <petertodd> jgarzik: IMO there is a lot of value to having a second P2P-layer implementation, for all the work that it is.
1088 2013-07-23 17:11:15 <jgarzik> agreed
1089 2013-07-23 17:11:34 <petertodd> jgarzik: Also, the DoS problem is significantly less/different, because you only need block headers.
1090 2013-07-23 17:11:48 grau_ has joined
1091 2013-07-23 17:12:13 * jgarzik was speaking generally. All non-bitcoind codebases do not even seen to have an awareness that DoS exists as a class of security problem. :)
1092 2013-07-23 17:12:14 <petertodd> jgarzik: Although we've probably got assumptions about what nodes that don't set any service bits do exactly... really there's an even lower level of "I don't even have any headers" that we don't really represent.
1093 2013-07-23 17:12:35 <nsh> wat
1094 2013-07-23 17:12:37 <jgarzik> i.e. no framework even to notice abusive nodes, regardless of hueristic or specific attack
1095 2013-07-23 17:12:41 <nsh> is being discussed?
1096 2013-07-23 17:12:43 <petertodd> jgarzik: If I ever do any non-bitcoin programming, I'll be so dissippointed...
1097 2013-07-23 17:12:59 <jgarzik> nsh, decentralized secure IRC ;p
1098 2013-07-23 17:12:59 <nsh> i see p2p, fork bitcoind, ircd proxy
1099 2013-07-23 17:13:01 <nsh> oh dear
1100 2013-07-23 17:13:08 <jgarzik> nsh, using my identity protocol
1101 2013-07-23 17:13:29 <nsh> jgarzik, any write-up of said protocol?
1102 2013-07-23 17:13:33 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1103 2013-07-23 17:14:02 <jgarzik> nsh, yes, but please don't blog about it, as it is in flux: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1
1104 2013-07-23 17:14:14 * nsh nods assent
1105 2013-07-23 17:14:29 <nsh> ty
1106 2013-07-23 17:14:44 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'm going to email the freenet mailing list regarding this stuff fwiw.
1107 2013-07-23 17:14:45 BurtyBB has joined
1108 2013-07-23 17:14:58 <petertodd> jgarzik: Their talking about costly identities right now.
1109 2013-07-23 17:15:26 <jgarzik> petertodd, My main reservation: I would like to have an answer for the storage of key-value pairs before talking much about it.
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1112 2013-07-23 17:16:56 <jgarzik> seems pretty clear in broad strokes: need decentralized database -> chain. But you need more than broad strokes. Then again, one criticism of that approach: Maybe people just need to assume responsibility of keeping their identities fresh in a DHT cache
1113 2013-07-23 17:17:11 <petertodd> jgarzik: You know, I think for IRC you don't actually need that.
1114 2013-07-23 17:17:27 <jgarzik> petertodd, agree, but freenet would probably want it I would think?
1115 2013-07-23 17:17:28 <petertodd> jgarzik: Operate on a cache basis, where your peers ask you for the full proofs if needed.
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1118 2013-07-23 17:17:51 <petertodd> jgarzik: Again, have peers ask for full proofs if needed - freenet doesn't try to change peers much anyway.
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1120 2013-07-23 17:20:03 <petertodd> FWIW freenet codebase is java
1121 2013-07-23 17:21:14 <petertodd> Freenet also has a lot of issues right now with something they call the mobile attacker, static target attack: basically just get closer and closer to your target by watching when data moves around the network.
1122 2013-07-23 17:21:36 <petertodd> It'd help them a lot if for some stuff they could still the DHT and use full bitmessage-style shared consensus.
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1124 2013-07-23 17:24:01 <gmaxwell> petertodd: they have a bunch of weaknesses from opennet but they need opennet to make it usable.
1125 2013-07-23 17:24:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yup. Darknet would be brilliant, but it fails due to the density of interested users.
1126 2013-07-23 17:24:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Just like mesh networking...
1127 2013-07-23 17:25:23 <gmaxwell> petertodd: cjdns has a similar security model.
1128 2013-07-23 17:25:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup
1129 2013-07-23 17:26:43 <gmaxwell> But freenet's need for storage makes having an opennet even more important.
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1131 2013-07-23 17:27:22 <jgarzik> Is cjdns any better than freenet? I haven't done a deep dive into either.
1132 2013-07-23 17:28:02 <MC1984> i thought it had more in common with i2p
1133 2013-07-23 17:28:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: IMO the biggest failing of freenet is that in reality their plausible deniability assumption is probably hopeless re: opennet.
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1135 2013-07-23 17:29:11 <petertodd> Worth thinking about re: p2p IRC too
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1138 2013-07-23 17:30:00 <jgarzik> for p2p IRC, I want people to be able to voluntarily elect to join or avoid networks
1139 2013-07-23 17:30:13 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it's a vaguely similar security model as freenet without opennet, but freenet is a high latency file storage thing, and cjdns is an IPv6 packet transport.
1140 2013-07-23 17:30:42 <jgarzik> not sure whether that means wholly separate peer collections for each network, or something of a less strict separation
1141 2013-07-23 17:30:43 <petertodd> jgarzik: I think that's the only option too, and more scalable anyway.
1142 2013-07-23 17:31:18 <jgarzik> easiest is a strict separation. one bitcoin-like P2P network per "IRC network"
1143 2013-07-23 17:31:29 <petertodd> jgarzik: I rather like the idea of doing bloom filters for what realms you pass messages for myself. (obvs with per-node nonces)
1144 2013-07-23 17:31:31 <jgarzik> though clients may certainly connect to multiple networks
1145 2013-07-23 17:31:49 <petertodd> jgarzik: that way realm can be as little as a single IRC channel
1146 2013-07-23 17:32:07 <gmaxwell> The limit of that is one network per channel. But doing that removes your ability to group channels to avoid traffic and peer analysis.
1147 2013-07-23 17:32:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Indeed, hence using bloom filters so usually you're passing data for a whole bunch of channels.
1148 2013-07-23 17:32:55 <jgarzik> in practical terms, if IRC proxy is presented as initial user interface, people will group together multiple channels onto a single network
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1150 2013-07-23 17:33:33 <petertodd> jgarzik: How so?
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1152 2013-07-23 17:33:55 <jgarzik> one network per channel is predicted to be annoying for humans
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1154 2013-07-23 17:34:31 <gmaxwell> what, you don't like being asked to join #bitcoin-dev@23489idisui23u4io32uoiewjdiji32je2e32i ?
1155 2013-07-23 17:34:41 <petertodd> jgarzik: But the interface is "/join channel" and your local node makes sure that channel is in the bloom filter and it has peers for the channel.
1156 2013-07-23 17:34:58 <gmaxwell> petertodd: naming is an adventure.
1157 2013-07-23 17:35:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm thinking the realm key would be H("IRC:" + "channel")
1158 2013-07-23 17:35:27 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Remember we're agressively using /ignore to keep spam down, so you can have a single global #bitcoin-dev channel.
1159 2013-07-23 17:35:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: /ignore and costly identities
1160 2013-07-23 17:36:35 <jgarzik> even so, humans will appreciate a useful namespace above channel level. it affords digitally signed administrative decisions
1161 2013-07-23 17:36:39 <jchp> well inevitably you're going to have decentralized (but trusted) services to authenticate/certify against spamming anyway, you could shoehorn a directory onto there
1162 2013-07-23 17:36:45 <jgarzik> and easy, secure grouping
1163 2013-07-23 17:36:48 <jgarzik> (or excluding)
1164 2013-07-23 17:36:50 <petertodd> jgarzik: Sure, but add that second
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1170 2013-07-23 17:37:26 <petertodd> jgarzik: Once you have the basic realm system, you can do a second one with an intermedary "lookup" layer, effectively mapping "trusted name" -> realm uuid
1171 2013-07-23 17:37:27 <jgarzik> petertodd, nah, just have a default "world" network with no admin
1172 2013-07-23 17:37:38 <jgarzik> petertodd, == bitmessage
1173 2013-07-23 17:38:33 <petertodd> jgarzik: Point is I'm thinking the lowest layer is a completely generic "pass messages around" layer, doing DoS filtering by the expensive identity signing the message. So IRC is actually being built on top of that ultra-low-level layer.
1174 2013-07-23 17:38:51 <petertodd> The lowest layer can be the bitcoin flood-fill thing people want basically, but split into realms.
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1177 2013-07-23 17:39:35 <petertodd> That's good too, because traffic from stuff like trust-free-mix negotiations is getting mixed in with IRC traffic and everything else.
1178 2013-07-23 17:39:44 <petertodd> (at least for the highest bandwidth nodes)
1179 2013-07-23 17:40:27 <jgarzik> petertodd, agree. I guess what you call a "realm" I call a "network". In my view, each realm/network would have independent pchMessageStart and peer collections. Traffic never crosses realms without additional effort.
1180 2013-07-23 17:40:57 <jgarzik> people who only join the "foo" network should never see flood-fill traffic from "world" or "bar" networks.
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1182 2013-07-23 17:41:13 <petertodd> Yeah, see what you call network, I call "what crypto-currency you are using to pay for identities"
1183 2013-07-23 17:41:18 <jgarzik> each network must be discovered and attacked separated, by attackers.
1184 2013-07-23 17:41:32 <jgarzik> to me, network == cloud of mesh peers/nodes
1185 2013-07-23 17:41:35 <petertodd> Really the difference is, are you sacrificing bitcoins, or litecoins or what?
1186 2013-07-23 17:41:55 <petertodd> Then what classes of messages are you interested in? Everything? IRC traffic? what?
1187 2013-07-23 17:42:10 <petertodd> Meh, I assume being discovered is easy...
1188 2013-07-23 17:42:37 <petertodd> Bloom filtering this stuff at the lowest level also helps with plausible deniability, as much as that can have it's own problems...
1189 2013-07-23 17:42:44 <jgarzik> not necessarily, just as you can run your own private Tor testnet/altcoin
1190 2013-07-23 17:42:48 <petertodd> (note I'm assuming *every* message is being encrypted)
1191 2013-07-23 17:42:55 <jgarzik> mesh networks can be dark if you work on it
1192 2013-07-23 17:43:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: Ah, but remember, this is a flood-fill network, so by "dark" that just means your peers aren't advertising their presence.
1193 2013-07-23 17:43:37 <petertodd> jgarzik: It's quite easier than freenet-style where it needs that routing layer.
1194 2013-07-23 17:44:02 <jgarzik> all nodes will have a certain traffic levels and patterns in common, yes
1195 2013-07-23 17:44:33 <jgarzik> until we all switch over to DCP (darknet control protocol, a mythical protocol that effectively blinds packet length and timing for any protocol)
1196 2013-07-23 17:45:05 <petertodd> heh, well... node-to-node communications can easily do that: just say how much bandwidth you want to give, and if packets don't exist, send garbage
1197 2013-07-23 17:45:21 <petertodd> Might be worth enabling that early on...
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1208 2013-07-23 18:00:07 <Steve132> What happens if I have two instances of bitcoind running on different machiens
1209 2013-07-23 18:00:09 <Steve132> *machines
1210 2013-07-23 18:00:15 <Steve132> and I import a private key into both
1211 2013-07-23 18:00:21 <Steve132> (the same private key)
1212 2013-07-23 18:00:27 <jgarzik> Steve132, you may spend from both
1213 2013-07-23 18:00:29 <sipa> you'll see the balance on both
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1215 2013-07-23 18:00:39 <sipa> and if you try to spend from both +- simultaneously
1216 2013-07-23 18:00:44 <sipa> dragons be upon you
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1218 2013-07-23 18:05:35 <Steve132> Thanks. Second question: Is there anywhere monitortx and monitorblocks are documented? Are there any other callback apis to avoid polling?
1219 2013-07-23 18:06:14 <sipa> monitortx and monitorblocks were never merged, afaik
1220 2013-07-23 18:06:30 <sipa> there are the -blocknotify and -walletnotify command-line options
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1224 2013-07-23 18:09:22 <Steve132> Hmm. Interesting
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1229 2013-07-23 18:12:27 <Steve132> So, as far as I understand it...suppose I wanted to build a web-service that basically just listened to the bitcoin network and did some action on a reciept to address...like, payment processing basically. The preferred method for that would be to listen to both blocknotify and walletnotify
1230 2013-07-23 18:12:37 brson has joined
1231 2013-07-23 18:12:54 <Steve132> on a walletnotify, if the address was in my wallet, I'd get a message on the 0conf first transaction
1232 2013-07-23 18:13:48 <Steve132> and then on a blocknotify I basically poll the transactions i've recieved to see how many confirmations I've gotten
1233 2013-07-23 18:14:54 <runeks> I created a list of block difficulties and adjustments in text form, in case anyone is interested. It should update whenever a difficulty change occurs: http://runeks.dk/bitcoin/diff.txt
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1252 2013-07-23 18:35:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: so, it looks like the rebroad/edam reports may be as late in the chain as they are simply because thats where ecdsa runs.
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1262 2013-07-23 18:51:26 <gmaxwell> This is scary: http://code.google.com/p/leveldb/issues/detail?id=178 hopefully that issue is compaction specific
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1268 2013-07-23 19:00:11 <gmaxwell> (looking at the fix, it seems so, but oy.)
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1279 2013-07-23 19:20:33 <Luke-Jr> SEC charges pirateat40 with defrauding investors: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-23/texan-charged-bitcoin-denominated-ponzi-scheme
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1286 2013-07-23 19:24:43 <MC1984> ohh
1287 2013-07-23 19:24:55 <MC1984> how much trouble is he in
1288 2013-07-23 19:25:59 <MC1984> Shavers raised at least 700,000 Bitcoin in BTCST investments
1289 2013-07-23 19:26:31 <MC1984> unbelieveable. I hope he goes down but i sort of hope no one really gets much back
1290 2013-07-23 19:26:55 <MC1984> turns out what he was selling in the end was some very expensive lessons
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1295 2013-07-23 19:27:27 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: admittedly I did bring it up, but only because it's of interest to people here; further discussion probably belongs in #bitcoin
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1297 2013-07-23 19:30:06 <stevedekorte> when the government does what Shavers did, they call it Social Security
1298 2013-07-23 19:30:14 <MC1984> ok
1299 2013-07-23 19:31:08 <ryan-c> sipa: Any idea what the ratio in computation time for computing a secp256k1 private key from the public vs adding two public keys together is?
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1327 2013-07-23 20:04:19 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: link to SEC release here, minus a bunch of ads: https://www.sec.gov/servlet/Satellite/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583
1328 2013-07-23 20:04:22 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
1329 2013-07-23 20:04:39 <gmaxwell> td posted the distribution letter on bitcoin-development without the last copy edits.
1330 2013-07-23 20:05:05 xnyhps_ is now known as xnyhps
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1334 2013-07-23 20:07:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: at least it's not "out there" :/
1335 2013-07-23 20:07:47 <Luke-Jr> has anyone got sigs done yet?
1336 2013-07-23 20:08:05 <Luke-Jr> a3e5297322b2fb302a4fb1a112a80bb275b0457adc5f1849cb78e0006ebcdf7d seems finalish finally?
1337 2013-07-23 20:08:30 rdymac has joined
1338 2013-07-23 20:08:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: can you go replace the text in the google doc he is asking people to put their names on?
1339 2013-07-23 20:10:34 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1340 2013-07-23 20:11:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: apparently not, some Anonymous Beaver is editing it further -.-
1341 2013-07-23 20:12:15 <gmaxwell> feh
1342 2013-07-23 20:12:21 <petertodd> In part that's probably because he doesn't use GPG
1343 2013-07-23 20:12:39 <petertodd> Honestly, I'd just post what we agreed to here separately, including the sigs. (I signed alread0
1344 2013-07-23 20:12:43 <petertodd> *already)
1345 2013-07-23 20:13:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: The one we both signed, any other sigs for that?
1346 2013-07-23 20:13:16 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: where's your sig?
1347 2013-07-23 20:13:39 EPiSKiNG- is now known as EPiSKiNG-`
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1350 2013-07-23 20:13:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: http://pastebin.com/yYur8wrL
1351 2013-07-23 20:14:13 <petertodd> Needs Hash: SHA256 at the top (in addition to Hash: SHA1 for gmaxwell's sig
1352 2013-07-23 20:14:36 <Luke-Jr> how do you list multiple hashes? space delimited?
1353 2013-07-23 20:14:48 <petertodd> no, just multiple Hash: lines
1354 2013-07-23 20:14:53 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130723-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md.asc
1355 2013-07-23 20:14:59 <Luke-Jr> ah
1356 2013-07-23 20:15:32 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Cool, got gmaxwell's sig too?
1357 2013-07-23 20:15:40 <petertodd> (your key shows as expired for me)
1358 2013-07-23 20:15:44 <Luke-Jr> nope
1359 2013-07-23 20:15:55 <petertodd> nevermind, good now
1360 2013-07-23 20:15:56 <petertodd> one sec
1361 2013-07-23 20:15:57 <Luke-Jr> if it shows expired, you may need to update from keyserver
1362 2013-07-23 20:16:38 <Luke-Jr> maaku: poke, can you do a PGP sign?
1363 2013-07-23 20:17:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: where do I get your sig?
1364 2013-07-23 20:17:14 <petertodd> http://pastebin.com/MUXf9BBT
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1366 2013-07-23 20:17:20 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: update fixed it
1367 2013-07-23 20:17:21 * gmaxwell looks to see how to change the preferred hash on his signature.
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1369 2013-07-23 20:17:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: you need to change your gpg.conf settings, then do setpref after edit-key <fingerprint>
1370 2013-07-23 20:17:59 <maaku> Luke-Jr: where's the original .txt ?
1371 2013-07-23 20:18:02 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: that sig does not match
1372 2013-07-23 20:18:10 <Luke-Jr> maaku: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130723-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md a3e5297322b2fb302a4fb1a112a80bb275b0457adc5f1849cb78e0006ebcdf7d
1373 2013-07-23 20:18:22 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: wait, I forgot the hash
1374 2013-07-23 20:18:47 <Luke-Jr> k, got Greg's added
1375 2013-07-23 20:18:50 <petertodd> cool
1376 2013-07-23 20:18:52 <petertodd> sipa?
1377 2013-07-23 20:18:54 <gmaxwell> I'll switch to sha256.
1378 2013-07-23 20:18:54 <petertodd> jgarzik?
1379 2013-07-23 20:19:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: we should probably cut the names and version strings out of the sigs.
1380 2013-07-23 20:19:21 <gmaxwell> you'll get all the names with --verify makes it seem less petitiony.
1381 2013-07-23 20:19:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: go for it
1382 2013-07-23 20:19:37 <Luke-Jr> comments/versions stripped
1383 2013-07-23 20:20:06 <gmaxwell> Instructions: wget http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130723-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md gpg --clearsign 20130723-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md and post the asc file so luke can merge the signature.
1384 2013-07-23 20:20:12 RoboTeddy has joined
1385 2013-07-23 20:21:05 <maaku> Luke-Jr: http://pastebin.com/0gHzwjAw
1386 2013-07-23 20:21:17 grau_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1387 2013-07-23 20:21:49 <Luke-Jr> maaku: what's your key id?
1388 2013-07-23 20:22:03 <Luke-Jr> seems I don't have you
1389 2013-07-23 20:22:16 <Luke-Jr> nm, gpg told me
1390 2013-07-23 20:22:37 RoboTedd_ has joined
1391 2013-07-23 20:22:43 <Luke-Jr> too bad we didn't think to do PGP signing at that dinner
1392 2013-07-23 20:23:00 RoboTeddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1393 2013-07-23 20:23:47 <maaku> yeah :(
1394 2013-07-23 20:24:31 tholenst has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1397 2013-07-23 20:29:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so I can't change the preferences on my revoked UIDs, and I think thats making it stick with sha1 for some reason.
1398 2013-07-23 20:31:14 <jgarzik> I think it's an impressively signed dense block of text that won't make much of an impression. I ACK'd an earlier hash, scrollback can say which. But it's an opinion of presentation not information.
1399 2013-07-23 20:31:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: maaku's sig is SHA1 too, so not so important IMO
1400 2013-07-23 20:31:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: SHA1 is fine
1401 2013-07-23 20:32:30 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I don't think it changed much since then. Unfortunately, I was stupid and didn't archive every change :/
1402 2013-07-23 20:32:31 <petertodd> jgarzik: one issue is we do want to set a precident that bitcoin development is decentralized
1403 2013-07-23 20:32:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Luke-Jr, petertodd: Working on my own version with sufficiently bold text. https://gist.github.com/jgarzik/6065679 The Challenges of Packaging Bitcoin Software
1404 2013-07-23 20:32:42 <gmaxwell> petertodd: oh I know its fine, just thought it would be good to change that.
1405 2013-07-23 20:32:51 <jgarzik> incomplete
1406 2013-07-23 20:33:00 <jgarzik> but since the topic is active on IRC
1407 2013-07-23 20:33:03 * gmaxwell won't worry for now
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1409 2013-07-23 20:33:29 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: is the current md not suitable for your PGP sig?
1410 2013-07-23 20:33:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he acked the text, but he's not impressed by the signatures.
1411 2013-07-23 20:34:08 <petertodd> jgarzik: I thought you weren'timpressed by the text either?
1412 2013-07-23 20:34:25 <Luke-Jr> well, true, the PGP won't make a big deal on this. personally I see it as trying to improve PGP-awareness
1413 2013-07-23 20:34:44 <petertodd> jgarzik: IMO the question we want to ask, is what exactly is the audience here? Is it package maintainers who know nothing, a little, or a lot, about bitcoin?
1414 2013-07-23 20:34:47 <gmaxwell> I think thats a little bit sad though, because I think signing it says postive things about our use of the applicable tools. ... and mike's not signed stuff just got rewritten out from under people.
1415 2013-07-23 20:34:51 <maaku> jgarzik: short and too the point is better, but by all means make a longer article explaining why the letter was written, and what maintainers can do if they care enough to learn
1416 2013-07-23 20:35:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: agreed, signing is something we have to set precident for
1417 2013-07-23 20:35:31 <Luke-Jr> package maintainers should certainly be familiar with PGP
1418 2013-07-23 20:35:38 <Luke-Jr> every major distro is PGP-signing packages now
1419 2013-07-23 20:35:40 <jgarzik> maaku, short and to the point doesn't work, if people do not even understand the scope of the technology
1420 2013-07-23 20:36:08 <jgarzik> maaku, the distro security people charged with this area of interest don't know bitcoin, and must be convinced to deviate from existing practice
1421 2013-07-23 20:36:10 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: esp. debian - probably one of the biggest WoT user groups out there
1422 2013-07-23 20:36:29 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it absolutely doesn't workâ except in narrow nichesâ but not using it doesn't help it not work. And packagage maintainers are a niche that do make ~effective use of it.
1423 2013-07-23 20:36:30 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1424 2013-07-23 20:36:34 <jgarzik> maaku, "trust us" doesn't work -- because they have heard that many times before, and it was not true.
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1427 2013-07-23 20:38:03 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, ACK a3e52973
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1430 2013-07-23 20:39:19 <petertodd> So what's the political process by which a package like Bitcoin gets added to a distro anyway?
1431 2013-07-23 20:39:33 <petertodd> IE what's the mindset of the person championing that along?
1432 2013-07-23 20:40:34 <jgarzik> petertodd, usually it just has to meet a minimum standard of "packager is breathing"
1433 2013-07-23 20:40:37 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1434 2013-07-23 20:40:39 <Luke-Jr> lol
1435 2013-07-23 20:41:03 <petertodd> jgarzik: Right, so at worst, assume some amateur thinking "cool, bitcoin!"
1436 2013-07-23 20:41:03 <jgarzik> optionally, they respond to email. optionally, they understand how to build the package. optionally, they understand how to use the pkg. you get the drift.
1437 2013-07-23 20:41:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: At best, someone who really cares and understands.
1438 2013-07-23 20:41:59 <petertodd> jgarzik: Makes me think the a3e52973 version is good for an in-general warning, and what you are working on is good to put up on a blog, include in the src tree etc.
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1450 2013-07-23 20:48:37 <petertodd> re: "PGP overkill for this anyway" - I should start issuing Mike Hearn signed press releases
1451 2013-07-23 20:49:33 <Luke-Jr> lol
1452 2013-07-23 20:49:54 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: send me links when you do ;p
1453 2013-07-23 20:51:01 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Best would be to register mike.hearn123@gmail.com to make it look "legit"
1454 2013-07-23 20:51:11 <TD> petertodd forgets that i'm a gmail admin
1455 2013-07-23 20:51:16 <TD> so good luck with keeping that account alive ;)
1456 2013-07-23 20:51:20 <petertodd> who cares?
1457 2013-07-23 20:51:26 <gmaxwell> :P
1458 2013-07-23 20:51:38 stevedekorte has quit (Quit: stevedekorte)
1459 2013-07-23 20:51:39 <TD> gmaxwell: can i put your name on it?
1460 2013-07-23 20:51:52 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1462 2013-07-23 20:52:06 <gmaxwell> In any case, if people are going to argue about it it really does come to be more trouble than its worth. Just let the people who want to pgp sign pgp sign, live and let live and all that jazz.
1463 2013-07-23 20:52:08 <petertodd> The real danger with this stuff is when we're trying to communicate a security vulnerability that requires quick action... or worse, someone is trying to pretend that's happening.
1464 2013-07-23 20:52:39 <TD> i rely on DKIM signing rather than PGP, it works much better.
1465 2013-07-23 20:52:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Indeed. DKIM for some + PGP for others is a good thing.
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1468 2013-07-23 20:54:27 <gmaxwell> TD: Pieter, Jgarzik, and I approved the a3e5297322b2fb3 text last night. I think gavin did too. My signature on that text from last night is the first one on that .asc file luke has posted.
1469 2013-07-23 20:54:40 <TD> gmaxwell: what copyedits got changed? i didn't intentionally roll back anything beyond the point where i announced it
1470 2013-07-23 20:55:28 <gmaxwell> TD: what I think happened is that the text was changed sometime last night after luke pulled off a copy to circulate for approval before you got to it.
1471 2013-07-23 20:55:39 <TD> ah
1472 2013-07-23 20:55:53 <Luke-Jr> TD: the final revisions were done in .md, since PGP can't do GDocs
1473 2013-07-23 20:56:06 <Luke-Jr> afaik anyway
1474 2013-07-23 20:56:08 GordonG3kko has joined
1475 2013-07-23 20:56:19 <Luke-Jr> mostly minor stuff I think
1476 2013-07-23 20:56:32 stevedekorte has joined
1477 2013-07-23 20:56:40 <TD> i can point to some other document, but one that lacks names is somewhat useless. i could just add a link to a directory containing signatures and the text file
1478 2013-07-23 20:56:46 <TD> and then put the names there as well
1479 2013-07-23 20:56:54 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1480 2013-07-23 20:56:54 <gmaxwell> TD: you can put the names inside the signature blobs.
1481 2013-07-23 20:57:06 <Luke-Jr> TD: one nice thing about PGP is we can concatenate them, so there's a single file with all the sigs:
1482 2013-07-23 20:57:07 <gmaxwell> There were ones there before, but someone suggested it looked too petitiony.
1483 2013-07-23 20:57:14 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130723-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md.asc
1484 2013-07-23 20:57:18 <TD> petitiony?
1485 2013-07-23 20:57:18 <gmaxwell> we could put them back if yu think it wouldn't be effective.
1486 2013-07-23 20:57:26 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1487 2013-07-23 20:58:04 <TD> i'm happy to link to the .asc file from the doc, and put names there too. that way it's easy to read and auditable as well. but opaque base64 encoded blobs means it's hard to know who actually signed it
1488 2013-07-23 20:58:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: can you put up a copy with names in them for visual comparison?
1489 2013-07-23 20:58:21 phillsphinest has joined
1490 2013-07-23 20:58:24 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, doesn't need to be opaque.
1491 2013-07-23 20:58:44 <petertodd> Keep in mind everyone we are sending this to Debian, (among others) and Debian developers use PGP extensively and actually use the web of trust. PGP will mean something to them.
1492 2013-07-23 20:58:45 <gmaxwell> TD: hold on one sec and see what you think about it with the cleartext names in it.
1493 2013-07-23 20:59:43 <TD> sure
1494 2013-07-23 20:59:53 <gmaxwell> hah: 2013-07-23 20:59:19 ERROR: SignatureHash() : nOut=1 out of range
1495 2013-07-23 21:00:03 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130723-linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin.md.asc updated with comments again
1496 2013-07-23 21:00:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: greg@xiph.org preffered ID on my key now. (all are valid in any case)
1497 2013-07-23 21:01:02 <Luke-Jr> k
1498 2013-07-23 21:01:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: you're still with Xiph even at Mozilla? :p
1499 2013-07-23 21:01:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Xiph is a 501(c)(3) OSS org, not a dayjobby thing.
1500 2013-07-23 21:01:56 <gmaxwell> Like the bitcoin foundation would be if it were incorporated differently.
1501 2013-07-23 21:03:13 <gmaxwell> TD: see luke's latest link, you can also toss in additional non-signed names at the end and between the signatures (but not before the first one) it doesn't break gpg --verify
1502 2013-07-23 21:04:12 <TD> great
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1506 2013-07-23 21:08:32 <petertodd> gmaxwell: is that another tx on top of the two I did yesterday?
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1518 2013-07-23 21:12:34 <gmaxwell> petertodd: no, it was presumably one of yours I just did a coinstate rebuild to test some leveldb changes for utxo agreement.
1519 2013-07-23 21:12:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: cool
1520 2013-07-23 21:13:16 <gmaxwell> though now that I mention it, the fact that you triggered an error message that has never been seen before and no one commented on IRC is probably bad.
1521 2013-07-23 21:13:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Agreed
1522 2013-07-23 21:14:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It also worries me a bit how much praise that got me on the forums... wondering if that'll trigger people trying to exploit other issues, especially doing so with op-codes.
1523 2013-07-23 21:14:30 pjorrit has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1524 2013-07-23 21:14:37 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I mean, that one was known, just not to you.
1525 2013-07-23 21:14:46 drizzt_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1527 2013-07-23 21:15:06 <gmaxwell> There was a public thread on it, because its a quasi-vulnerablity because the signatures a rebindable.
1528 2013-07-23 21:15:23 patcon_ has joined
1529 2013-07-23 21:15:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. whatever private key you used there.. I hope you don't have any funds assigned to it. :P
1530 2013-07-23 21:15:26 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1531 2013-07-23 21:15:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, I was thinking that exact issue!
1532 2013-07-23 21:15:50 <gmaxwell> Ultimately we decided to nothing about it because the issue is solved by "don't do that".
1533 2013-07-23 21:15:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Nah, throw-away wallet.
1534 2013-07-23 21:16:34 <petertodd> More generally I'm still divided as to the value of having edge cases in the main chain, and leaning towards your view that it's bad.
1535 2013-07-23 21:17:03 <gmaxwell> It creates a false impression that syncing the main chain is an adequate test.
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1539 2013-07-23 21:17:06 <petertodd> On the other hand, I did that on mainnet precisely because I knew it'd break a few implementations very obviously.
1540 2013-07-23 21:17:12 <petertodd> Yup, a big danger
1541 2013-07-23 21:17:26 <gmaxwell> it's also unfortunate that there is critical infrastructure which isn't on testnet.
1542 2013-07-23 21:17:29 <petertodd> If we had an infinite number of these cases and trickled them out once a week it'd be better. :P
1543 2013-07-23 21:17:33 agnostic98 has joined
1544 2013-07-23 21:17:52 <gmaxwell> since there is no way to get advanced warning from it being tried out on testnet first if you're not on testnet.
1545 2013-07-23 21:18:07 <petertodd> eg blockchain.info
1546 2013-07-23 21:18:31 <gmaxwell> Can someone give me a hashe seralized at 248128 (or 248129 if it shows up first)
1547 2013-07-23 21:18:34 <gmaxwell> ?
1548 2013-07-23 21:18:41 <gmaxwell> (gettxoutsetinfo)
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1550 2013-07-23 21:19:41 <petertodd> 248128: "b5e0380d530d92c4ffa54ebd5d24fb1c6407767ebb967e6f291cd6efb7fc2e35"
1551 2013-07-23 21:20:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: thank you.
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1562 2013-07-23 21:38:41 <sipa> @later tell coingenuity are you still seeing database corruption problems?
1563 2013-07-23 21:40:12 <coingenuity> sipa: not anymore, no, but to be kind of frank i stopped using that system for bitcoin serving and built a new server from scratch
1564 2013-07-23 21:40:45 <coingenuity> that said, it's the same basic system with new hardware, same OS, but haven't seen the same issue in 0.8.3 yet
1565 2013-07-23 21:40:49 Krellan_ has joined
1566 2013-07-23 21:41:57 <gjs278> was getbalance stripped from the output of bitcoind --help?
1567 2013-07-23 21:42:04 <gjs278> I swear it was always there
1568 2013-07-23 21:42:24 <gmaxwell> gjs278: you want bitcoind help not --help
1569 2013-07-23 21:42:30 <gjs278> oh right
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1577 2013-07-23 21:57:01 <gjs278> WOW the price on coinbase dropped from 90.60 to 86.50 in one refresh 20 seconds apart
1578 2013-07-23 21:57:16 <gjs278> its like it knows I was trying to get a better rate
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1591 2013-07-23 22:08:56 <jgarzik> Pirate got charged: https://www.sec.gov/servlet/Satellite/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.Ue6zJo1WZ8F
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1593 2013-07-23 22:10:01 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: nice
1594 2013-07-23 22:10:05 * BlueMatt -> bed
1595 2013-07-23 22:10:11 <BlueMatt> well, maybe alcohol first, then bed
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1612 2013-07-23 22:23:44 <nsh> glad pirate got his
1613 2013-07-23 22:23:54 <nsh> but i'm also (perversely?) glad he pulled off the scam
1614 2013-07-23 22:24:03 <nsh> actually, maybe i'm not
1615 2013-07-23 22:24:28 <nsh> i have conflicted views about bad things happening to gullible people
1616 2013-07-23 22:24:35 <gmaxwell> nsh: #bitcoin
1617 2013-07-23 22:24:38 <nsh> idd.
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1621 2013-07-23 22:29:53 <The_Fly> tst
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1624 2013-07-23 22:30:23 <The_Fly> â
1625 2013-07-23 22:30:24 <sipa> i rd yr cnsnnts clrly.
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1627 2013-07-23 22:32:54 sserrano44 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1628 2013-07-23 22:33:19 <k9quaint> I use vowels, capitalization, punctuation, and grammar on the internet
1629 2013-07-23 22:33:24 <k9quaint> <--- retro
1630 2013-07-23 22:35:09 sserrano44 has joined
1631 2013-07-23 22:35:36 <sipa> Nonetheless, you are missing punctuation at the end of your sentence.
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1636 2013-07-23 22:40:46 <gmaxwell> At least he included the serial comma.
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