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  26 2013-07-24 00:34:56 <MC1984> AES-128 CTR
  27 2013-07-24 00:35:13 <MC1984> is that good for securing nodes sessions in p2p
  28 2013-07-24 00:35:20 <MC1984> particularly the ctr bit, i dont know what that means
  29 2013-07-24 00:36:18 <sipa> sounds fine to me
  30 2013-07-24 00:36:21 <sipa> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_cipher_mode_of_operation#Counter_.28CTR.29
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  32 2013-07-24 00:37:13 <MC1984> hmm why would they use a block cipher on a p2p session
  33 2013-07-24 00:37:43 <MC1984> i thought stream ciphers were suitable for that, indeed it used to be rc4 stream
  34 2013-07-24 00:38:06 <sipa> CTR mode actually results in a stream cipher
  35 2013-07-24 00:38:24 <MC1984> oh
  36 2013-07-24 00:38:38 <sipa> it's not limited to multiples of the block size
  37 2013-07-24 00:38:56 <MC1984> what about PFS, considering what we know is stored forever now
  38 2013-07-24 00:40:22 <sipa> pfs?
  39 2013-07-24 00:41:16 <MC1984> forward secrecy
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  43 2013-07-24 00:50:46 * nsh applauds anyone promoting PFS where applicable
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  45 2013-07-24 00:53:38 ivan`_ is now known as ivan`
  46 2013-07-24 00:54:28 <jgarzik> hmmm
  47 2013-07-24 00:54:38 Application has joined
  48 2013-07-24 00:54:48 <jgarzik> speaking of the IRC-replacement discussion here earlier
  49 2013-07-24 00:55:14 <jgarzik> it would be fun to rip out all the wallet and non-UI code. see what bitcoind looks like
  50 2013-07-24 00:55:15 Applicat_ has joined
  51 2013-07-24 00:55:28 <jgarzik> even as throwaway fun, might inform fork(2) work
  52 2013-07-24 00:55:57 <jgarzik> (context:  bitcoind's P2P mesh network code is potentially useable in another project)
  53 2013-07-24 00:56:13 <MC1984> why do you want to replace irc
  54 2013-07-24 00:56:20 <jgarzik> it's so 1984
  55 2013-07-24 00:56:41 <MC1984> and i thought bitcoins p2p layer was straight outta 1999
  56 2013-07-24 00:57:12 <MC1984> as in, very rudimentary compared to others
  57 2013-07-24 00:58:30 <jgarzik> for a flood-fill network you don't need much else
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  59 2013-07-24 00:59:22 <gmaxwell> MC1984: no way dude. Bitcoin's p2p is totally async, and binary.. it's very much not in the tradition of application later protocols on the internet which tend to be chatty with a bunch of inefficient encoding and round trips.
  60 2013-07-24 00:59:27 <MC1984> hole punching would be nice
  61 2013-07-24 00:59:51 <jgarzik> no argument it is quite simplistic
  62 2013-07-24 01:00:04 <jgarzik> and yes hole punching++
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  64 2013-07-24 01:01:11 <nsh> hole-punching?
  65 2013-07-24 01:01:23 <gmaxwell> Indeed, it's simple. This isn't a disadvantage. I invite you to go try to implement XMPP or SDP support.
  66 2013-07-24 01:01:43 <gmaxwell> nsh: what UDP apps need to do to get traffic in through firewalls and (some) nats.
  67 2013-07-24 01:01:44 <nsh> oh, UDP h
  68 2013-07-24 01:01:45 <nsh> right
  69 2013-07-24 01:01:49 * nsh nods
  70 2013-07-24 01:02:22 <jgarzik> in some cases UDP enables incoming connections through a firewall where TCP doesn't
  71 2013-07-24 01:02:40 <jgarzik> which bitcoin could use
  72 2013-07-24 01:02:57 <nsh> it occurs to me suddenly that a resourceful and committed adversary could probably cause a lot of problems for the bitcoin network through exploiting shitty uPnP implementations
  73 2013-07-24 01:03:13 <gmaxwell> s/through exploiting shitty uPnP implementations//
  74 2013-07-24 01:03:19 <nsh> right
  75 2013-07-24 01:03:23 <gmaxwell> Alternative transports would be highly welcome.
  76 2013-07-24 01:03:26 <jrmithdobbs> for values of "enable" that mean "exploits nat implementations"
  77 2013-07-24 01:03:30 <jgarzik> satellite!
  78 2013-07-24 01:03:33 <jgarzik> there is funding!
  79 2013-07-24 01:03:35 <jgarzik> :)
  80 2013-07-24 01:03:48 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is not its p2p protocol. There is absolutely no reason that we should have only one. :P
  81 2013-07-24 01:03:55 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  82 2013-07-24 01:04:16 <jrmithdobbs> in fact the p2p protocol is the worst part :)
  83 2013-07-24 01:04:16 <nsh> ok, but then there should be a proper protocol layering refactor of the codebase
  84 2013-07-24 01:04:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I can summon someone with a fair amount of stacom expirence who probably wouldn't mind some paid work on this.
  85 2013-07-24 01:04:28 <gmaxwell> er satcom.
  86 2013-07-24 01:04:42 <gmaxwell> nsh: forget that. Show that it makes sense first.
  87 2013-07-24 01:05:04 <nsh> hmm
  88 2013-07-24 01:05:08 <gmaxwell> nsh: no reason that you can't make a little gateway the speaks the totally trivially current protocol on one side and your new thing on the other.
  89 2013-07-24 01:05:15 <jrmithdobbs> nsh: the number of shitty soho routers that expose upnp to the outside world is straight up terrifying :(
  90 2013-07-24 01:05:17 <nsh> this is true
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  92 2013-07-24 01:05:21 <gmaxwell> From a security perspective that kind of isolation is good anyways.
  93 2013-07-24 01:05:26 <nsh> jrmithdobbs, indeed...
  94 2013-07-24 01:05:42 <jgarzik> <shrug> replacing TCP/P2P with some other transport (SCTP or zmq) would be < 500 LOC.  easy.
  95 2013-07-24 01:06:05 <jrmithdobbs> nsh: doesn't help that the acl code in minupnp has been silently broken/non-functional for going on over a year now and that happens to be what all those soho routers use :(
  96 2013-07-24 01:06:19 <nsh> ok, so maybe an informal competition encouraging people to get bitcoin network traffic running over a whole bunch of existing protocols as a fun hack/coding exercise
  97 2013-07-24 01:06:24 <nsh> and see what's actually viable
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 100 2013-07-24 01:07:45 <nsh> jrmithdobbs, but of course the real concern is cheap chinese hardware manufacturers conspiring with PRC
 101 2013-07-24 01:08:00 <nsh> because no-one in government has ever heard of hanlon's razor...
 102 2013-07-24 01:08:13 <jrmithdobbs> on a completely unrelated topic, can anyone explain to me why the vegetarian meal options on flights are always better than the ones with meat?
 103 2013-07-24 01:08:20 <jrmithdobbs> or have I been living in the bay area too long?
 104 2013-07-24 01:08:56 <nsh> the same reason why a lot of people become devoutly islamic/jewish in prison, i suspect
 105 2013-07-24 01:09:15 IanCormac has joined
 106 2013-07-24 01:09:45 <nsh> the lowest common denominator of a smaller group or something
 107 2013-07-24 01:09:54 <jrmithdobbs> nsh: I think it'd be an interesting thought expiriment to take the mosh state sync'ing protocol and use a modified form of it  for memory pool sync across the network
 108 2013-07-24 01:10:06 * nsh googles
 109 2013-07-24 01:10:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, cool.  Might be worth moving the sat project along, then.  :)
 110 2013-07-24 01:10:17 <jrmithdobbs> speaking of p2p protocol changes ;p
 111 2013-07-24 01:10:28 <nsh> mit's mosh?
 112 2013-07-24 01:11:10 <nsh> yeah, i don't know why we don't all share about 2000 computers
 113 2013-07-24 01:11:37 <nsh> that's about the order of magnitude of required different set-ups of a computer system for the vast majority of use-cases
 114 2013-07-24 01:11:54 <jrmithdobbs> forget where the guy is but the udp terminal emulator/ssh replacement thing ya
 115 2013-07-24 01:12:02 <nsh> and they can be optimized and maintained in a shared manner instead of every single person (most of them being wildly unqualified) having to maintain their own computer
 116 2013-07-24 01:12:28 <nsh> we have distros that are community-maintained, why not actual installs?
 117 2013-07-24 01:12:38 <nsh> and just patch on your personal data at runtime
 118 2013-07-24 01:13:23 <jrmithdobbs> because there's plenty of "qualified" people out there that I wouldn't touch within 50yds of any hardware i own
 119 2013-07-24 01:13:32 <jrmithdobbs> s/touch/trust/
 120 2013-07-24 01:14:02 <jrmithdobbs> and by 50yds, i mean within 50yds of a console connected to any of them.
 121 2013-07-24 01:14:05 <nsh> mm
 122 2013-07-24 01:14:45 <nsh> in any case, mosh looks quite promising. thanks!
 123 2013-07-24 01:15:24 <nsh> haven't heard of OCB mode either
 124 2013-07-24 01:15:25 <jrmithdobbs> it's interesting, and if you dig at it much you'll start understanding why i said it'd be an interesting thought expirment, because I honestly can't work out how to make it work but I'm pretty sure it could be adapted
 125 2013-07-24 01:16:21 * nsh reads http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/ocb/ocb-faq.htm
 126 2013-07-24 01:17:15 <nsh> <jgarzik> <shrug> replacing TCP/P2P with some other transport (SCTP or zmq) would be < 500 LOC.  easy.  <---- i'm not sure network-protocol LOC are commensurate with regular LOC
 127 2013-07-24 01:18:33 <jrmithdobbs> wrt bitcoin they're actually less significant, that code is bleh
 128 2013-07-24 01:19:03 <jrmithdobbs> (unless there was a recent refactor in which case i apologize)
 129 2013-07-24 01:19:04 <phantomcircuit> nsh, zmq should not be exposed to the world
 130 2013-07-24 01:19:16 <phantomcircuit> it's not secure in that context
 131 2013-07-24 01:19:22 <phantomcircuit> especially against dos attacks
 132 2013-07-24 01:19:36 * nsh nods
 133 2013-07-24 01:20:05 <jrmithdobbs> mq is kinda scarey even exposed to semi-trusted users internally, really
 134 2013-07-24 01:21:19 <phantomcircuit> jrick, yeah
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 136 2013-07-24 01:21:20 <phantomcircuit> er
 137 2013-07-24 01:21:22 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, yeah
 138 2013-07-24 01:21:29 <phantomcircuit> which is why i use plain udp mostly
 139 2013-07-24 01:21:30 <phantomcircuit> :/
 140 2013-07-24 01:22:00 <phantomcircuit> zmq is more or less a thread doing io plus a nonblocking queue implementation
 141 2013-07-24 01:22:06 <phantomcircuit> with some neat syntax for sub/pub
 142 2013-07-24 01:22:07 <gmaxwell> I think it's kinda sad that most of these discussions go straight to debating over which of N fad protocols / encodings you want to use,  instead of, you know, fleshing out what properties you want to to have.
 143 2013-07-24 01:22:12 <phantomcircuit> it's not worth all the gotchas
 144 2013-07-24 01:22:55 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the funny thing is the bitcoin network code is actually pretty close to how zmq is implemented
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 148 2013-07-24 01:29:23 <MC1984> the only ones that have utility beyond nerd points is sat and data radio
 149 2013-07-24 01:29:31 <MC1984> but the last one is illegal
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 153 2013-07-24 01:31:43 <nsh> data radio is illegal?
 154 2013-07-24 01:31:54 <nsh> isn't GPRS system still used quite a bit?
 155 2013-07-24 01:31:56 Applicat_ has joined
 156 2013-07-24 01:31:59 <nsh> s/system //
 157 2013-07-24 01:32:36 CheckDavid has joined
 158 2013-07-24 01:32:36 * nsh recalls reading about GPRS from bbs textfiles in the mid nineties
 159 2013-07-24 01:32:49 <MC1984> thats licenced
 160 2013-07-24 01:33:01 <nsh> don't these things ever expire?
 161 2013-07-24 01:33:02 * nsh sighs
 162 2013-07-24 01:33:26 <gmaxwell> also not for data, but you can certantly legally do data over radio in the US, e.g. ham, ISM band (wifi!), or varrious licensed commercial allocations.
 163 2013-07-24 01:33:30 rdymac has joined
 164 2013-07-24 01:34:06 <MC1984> the crypto part of the protocol buggers it
 165 2013-07-24 01:34:11 <gmaxwell> I've expressed interest in doing bitcoin over radio but never found a counterparty. :)
 166 2013-07-24 01:34:20 <gmaxwell> MC1984: good thing there is no encryption in bitcoin.
 167 2013-07-24 01:34:33 <gmaxwell> (there is cryptographic authentication, but thats explicitly permitted in US regs)
 168 2013-07-24 01:34:49 <MC1984> oh i thought it was any crypto
 169 2013-07-24 01:35:16 <gmaxwell> The fact that its third party traffic which is more potentially problematic, but if you don't have a pecuniary interest and/or its a legit emergency, thats no big deal.
 170 2013-07-24 01:35:46 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 171 2013-07-24 01:35:49 <MC1984> bitcoin run on some sort of ham utopia would actually be more vulnerable to tapping than ovr the internet
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 174 2013-07-24 01:37:48 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you're missing the point.
 175 2013-07-24 01:37:51 <gmaxwell> :)
 176 2013-07-24 01:38:04 <gmaxwell> The idea is that you could use radio to bridge network gaps in the event of outages.
 177 2013-07-24 01:38:31 Application has joined
 178 2013-07-24 01:38:31 <MC1984> oh right were talking about pure provision
 179 2013-07-24 01:38:37 <MC1984> yeah, that would be great
 180 2013-07-24 01:39:17 gritball has joined
 181 2013-07-24 01:39:18 <gmaxwell> e.g. some mega earthquake valcano asteroid cisco router virus largely partitions north and south america or whatever, you relay the blockchain over radio in the short term while people fix the internet.
 182 2013-07-24 01:39:30 <gmaxwell> volcano*
 183 2013-07-24 01:39:35 <jrmithdobbs> did I read this thread right? is debian fucking shipping mips bitcoind packages
 184 2013-07-24 01:39:40 <jrmithdobbs> are they retards?
 185 2013-07-24 01:39:59 <MC1984> realistically, anything resembling this would probably be via the 2.4ghz and pringles cans ptp links like they do in places such as africa a lot
 186 2013-07-24 01:40:39 <MC1984> just some radio hardware that can shoot bits over a couple of miles, not bitcoin specific
 187 2013-07-24 01:40:42 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, apparently
 188 2013-07-24 01:40:48 <phantomcircuit> it builds so it must work
 189 2013-07-24 01:41:30 <MC1984> gmaxwell your disaster scenarios have gotten satisfylingly more cataclysmic over time
 190 2013-07-24 01:41:39 ahmedbodi has joined
 191 2013-07-24 01:41:49 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it takes more to break bitcoin as time goes on
 192 2013-07-24 01:42:09 saivann has joined
 193 2013-07-24 01:42:21 <MC1984> you are learing the ways of the hyperbole. I will teach you friend :)
 194 2013-07-24 01:43:28 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 195 2013-07-24 01:44:14 <MC1984> for real though write a short script for that and sell it to scifi channel, easy money
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 198 2013-07-24 01:46:15 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that one was particularly entertaining, i must say
 199 2013-07-24 01:49:29 ahmedbodi has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 200 2013-07-24 01:49:40 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: btw, you really didn't need the contrived example in that maintainers thread. You could have just given the bdb clusterfuck example that really did break things thanks to unknown default configs (that can be changed at compbile time of the linkedd bdb)
 201 2013-07-24 01:51:32 <gmaxwell> I mean, I could also just use examples from leveldb's commit history.  I didn't want to use an example that wasn't obviously self-consistent in the bugged case or where fixing it was at all ambigiously the right thing to do for the DB developer.
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 205 2013-07-24 01:53:16 <jrmithdobbs> ya i just mean that it actually did cause issues for real people on the real network in the past, seems like pretty good argument towards "this is *NOT* theorhetical" which basically seemed to sum up the debian guy's objections :)
 206 2013-07-24 01:53:29 wamatt has joined
 207 2013-07-24 01:53:59 <nsh> can someone give me a rundown on what this debian/distro drama is? i was going to ask yesterday but everyone seemed a bit busy dealing with stuff
 208 2013-07-24 01:54:10 ahmedbodi has joined
 209 2013-07-24 01:54:16 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: debian? hm. I don't think Greg is a debian packager.
 210 2013-07-24 01:54:36 <phantomcircuit> nsh, they patch out the included leveldb version for the system version
 211 2013-07-24 01:54:36 <jrmithdobbs> did I misread?
 212 2013-07-24 01:54:46 <nsh> phantomcircuit, oh
 213 2013-07-24 01:54:48 <phantomcircuit> nsh, which is potentially dangerous with bitcoin but safe pretty much everywhere else
 214 2013-07-24 01:54:55 <nsh> right, gotcha
 215 2013-07-24 01:54:58 <gmaxwell> nsh: no biggie, some distributors. ship modified bitcoin, including patching out our database library to replace it with a system one and other changes.
 216 2013-07-24 01:55:05 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: not greg, scott
 217 2013-07-24 01:55:22 * nsh nods
 218 2013-07-24 01:55:27 <jrmithdobbs> and implied that's who he was anyways
 219 2013-07-24 01:55:29 <gmaxwell> as phantomcircuit notes, this is surprisingly dangerous for bitcoin compared to most other stuff.
 220 2013-07-24 01:55:52 <MC1984> why do they do that, what do they say when you explain how bitcoin needs perfect global consensus
 221 2013-07-24 01:56:00 <jrmithdobbs> MC1984: it's policy
 222 2013-07-24 01:56:03 <nsh> sounds like it probably won't even result in a prolonged and vitriolic flamewar
 223 2013-07-24 01:56:07 <jrmithdobbs> (god I wish that was a joke)
 224 2013-07-24 01:56:09 * nsh is disappointed :)
 225 2013-07-24 01:56:22 <gmaxwell> MC1984: They're also armored against sanity because _lots_ of packages try to insist you use their bundled libraries.
 226 2013-07-24 01:56:42 <jrmithdobbs> MC1984: if you go dig through the debian packaging policies they do not like statically linked anything or software that includes it's own versions of system providesd libs
 227 2013-07-24 01:56:42 * nsh scribbles "armored against sanity" in his phrases-to-use notebook
 228 2013-07-24 01:56:45 <gmaxwell> MC1984: so they may be having a hard time believing that we're not just another set of obsessive developers.
 229 2013-07-24 01:57:02 <jrmithdobbs> (and in the case of debian since they package pratically everything, EVERYTHING counts as a system lib, effectively)
 230 2013-07-24 01:57:09 <MC1984> are they not open to reason on the technical details
 231 2013-07-24 01:57:22 <Luke-Jr> http://bitcoinmagazine.com/linux-distribution-packaging-and-bitcoin/ look good?
 232 2013-07-24 01:57:24 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the point of the letter is to make sure we have the discussion.
 233 2013-07-24 01:57:36 <MC1984> letter?
 234 2013-07-24 01:57:39 <gmaxwell> MC1984: there have been attempts in the past which didn't communicate things well.
 235 2013-07-24 01:57:54 <jrmithdobbs> ya, i seriously rolled my eyes at it until i started reading the responses and understood why it was necessary. :(
 236 2013-07-24 01:57:54 <MC1984> if their policy cannot bend, then they probably shouldnt package bitcoin at all
 237 2013-07-24 01:58:11 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yes, thats a position we've offered too. Not the end of the world if they don't.
 238 2013-07-24 01:58:31 <jrmithdobbs> not packaging bitcoi is better than packaging it poorly, definitely
 239 2013-07-24 01:58:37 <MC1984> its on the repos and stuff anyway i assume
 240 2013-07-24 01:59:32 * nsh wonders if distro-packaged bitcoin could be wrapped in an installer script that checks for basic network sanity compliance somehow
 241 2013-07-24 01:59:36 <gmaxwell> In any case, no big drama. Communication is good.
 242 2013-07-24 01:59:53 <nsh> something like BlueMatt's pull-tester
 243 2013-07-24 01:59:57 <gmaxwell> nsh: good tests are probably too slow for people to tolerate.
 244 2013-07-24 02:00:02 <nsh> right, true
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 246 2013-07-24 02:00:14 <Luke-Jr> nsh: there isn't a complete sanity tester yet :<
 247 2013-07-24 02:00:22 * nsh nods
 248 2013-07-24 02:00:25 <jrmithdobbs> ya the reqs for a real set of tests outscale what debian's build stuff will accomadate anyways
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 251 2013-07-24 02:01:38 <gmaxwell> Complete is really hard.  There are, for example, code paths in level DB that you'll only hit if the last update added more than 10 mbytes and the database is between 900 and 1000 MBytes in size (approximate numbers to give you an idea) and only if some but not all of the data is in cache.
 252 2013-07-24 02:02:01 <nsh> hmm
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 254 2013-07-24 02:02:29 <gmaxwell> some of these paths might actually be unreachable from bitcoin, but proving that to yourself might take days of work per possibly unreachable path.
 255 2013-07-24 02:03:35 <MC1984> sounds like were flying blind lol
 256 2013-07-24 02:03:37 <gmaxwell> this is why in my ML post I talked about this not just being a challenge for bitcoin's QA but also more generally a problem in advancing the art in software validation for large systems.
 257 2013-07-24 02:03:44 <nsh> i wonder what the tradeoff is. leveldb has a certain complexity that's (possibly) problematic
 258 2013-07-24 02:03:59 <nsh> what's being gained in exchange for that? performance, dev eyeball hours?
 259 2013-07-24 02:04:35 <nsh> if you had a mathematically bare persistence layer, how would you be paying for that simplicity/assurance?
 260 2013-07-24 02:04:38 <gmaxwell> in some cases switching to internal bitcoin specific code is a win... where we can be confidence that the code really is completely tested for our needs.
 261 2013-07-24 02:05:09 * nsh wonders if there is a simplex method for these kinds of inequalities
 262 2013-07-24 02:05:13 <gmaxwell> nsh: sadly an enormous amount. And it still wouldn't be simple! storing data with atomic updates that survives crashes is actually a real PITA even if you don't care about performance!
 263 2013-07-24 02:05:27 <gmaxwell> And we actually desperately need performance too!
 264 2013-07-24 02:05:28 <nsh> right
 265 2013-07-24 02:05:45 <nsh> maths is hard, let's give up shopping
 266 2013-07-24 02:05:46 <nsh> :)
 267 2013-07-24 02:05:48 <gmaxwell> (1) If block processing is too slow the network will stop converging and we'll start getting larger reorgs
 268 2013-07-24 02:05:59 * nsh nods
 269 2013-07-24 02:06:07 <gmaxwell> (2) if bitcoin is too slow and burdensom to run people will stop and that will make things become increasingly more centeralized.
 270 2013-07-24 02:06:28 <gmaxwell> so even if "replace it with something safe and simple" could be done, we still need the performance. :(
 271 2013-07-24 02:06:29 <nsh> hmmm
 272 2013-07-24 02:06:33 <nsh> right
 273 2013-07-24 02:06:54 <nsh> i wonder if there's a some general conservation law at play wrt [de]centralization and the burden of complexity
 274 2013-07-24 02:06:58 <gmaxwell> leveldb has very few features that we don't use  (unlike bdb) too.
 275 2013-07-24 02:07:22 <nsh> like when you try to push away the bulge of centralization, something is raised elsewhere and what exactly that represents
 276 2013-07-24 02:07:43 <gmaxwell> nsh: I've said a little flippantly, that bitcoin is basically on the edge of what our engineering technology allows.  Certantly its on the edge of what you can get away with without enormous persistant funding.
 277 2013-07-24 02:07:53 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
 278 2013-07-24 02:07:59 <nsh> right, i appreciate that more through idling here a while now
 279 2013-07-24 02:08:13 <gmaxwell> nsh: decenteralized makes it hard. Every protocol decision, even accidental ones, is a suicide pact.
 280 2013-07-24 02:08:34 <nsh> heh, indeed
 281 2013-07-24 02:09:07 <gmaxwell> In any case, it's also resillant too because people want it to work.
 282 2013-07-24 02:09:13 <gmaxwell> If no one cared about bitcoin it would be doomed.
 283 2013-07-24 02:09:23 <gmaxwell> But because people care it can take some abuse and we'll fix it.
 284 2013-07-24 02:09:46 <nsh> yup, it's interesting sociologically in that respect
 285 2013-07-24 02:09:56 <nsh> a kind of inverse tragedy of the commons
 286 2013-07-24 02:10:16 <MC1984> there is a byzantin paradigm that is applicable
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 288 2013-07-24 02:10:48 <MC1984> not everyone cares about bitcoin itself, but if enough people care it might survive
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 290 2013-07-24 02:11:16 <nsh> i don't think i follow how that's byzantine...
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 292 2013-07-24 02:11:26 <MC1984> id say most people who actually use it dont car about the systm right now
 293 2013-07-24 02:11:55 <nsh> well, the degree of vestment doesn't need to be evenly distributed
 294 2013-07-24 02:12:03 <nsh> in fact that's probably highly suboptimal
 295 2013-07-24 02:12:23 <MC1984> suboptimal for adoption
 296 2013-07-24 02:13:11 <gmaxwell> well people care but don't quite know what caring should mean.
 297 2013-07-24 02:13:14 <gmaxwell> or how they can help.
 298 2013-07-24 02:13:29 <gmaxwell> or that it needs their help. Sometimes it works too well. :)
 299 2013-07-24 02:14:08 <MC1984> i dunno man
 300 2013-07-24 02:14:26 <MC1984> things get awful quit when the price isnt doing gymnastics
 301 2013-07-24 02:14:48 brson has joined
 302 2013-07-24 02:15:02 <MC1984> youre probably right about many people not realising they need to help actually
 303 2013-07-24 02:15:17 <MC1984> when was the last time the bank asked for their help
 304 2013-07-24 02:15:44 <nsh> i'd say the ladder of participation could do with a few more rungs towards the bottom
 305 2013-07-24 02:15:50 <gmaxwell> Right. In fact, you'd be rather mad if the bank did, and rightfully so.
 306 2013-07-24 02:15:58 <MC1984> we hav the blurb on bitcoin.org i suppose
 307 2013-07-24 02:16:55 MoALTz has joined
 308 2013-07-24 02:16:56 <MC1984> how would you simply explain conceptually what bitcoin is and thus why it must call upon you, without blinding people with science
 309 2013-07-24 02:17:13 <MC1984> one perfect sentence could go a long way
 310 2013-07-24 02:17:48 PrimeStunna has joined
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 312 2013-07-24 02:19:48 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's just simply difficult for me to do that because the way I appreciate bitcoin depends greatly on the complexity of it.  ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSZNsIFID28 if you will)
 313 2013-07-24 02:20:04 <MC1984> "Bitcoin uses the power of regular home computers, just like yours, to ensure order and safety in the money system. The more computers, the more order and the safer your money is."
 314 2013-07-24 02:20:14 <MC1984> people like law and order dont they
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 317 2013-07-24 02:22:01 <MC1984> you could spin it as running full fat bitcoin is akin to deputising your PC to maintain the rules of the community
 318 2013-07-24 02:22:11 <MC1984> which is not actually spin at all
 319 2013-07-24 02:22:35 <gmaxwell> it's true—  and part of the challenge is expressing the point in a way that isn't purely about money.
 320 2013-07-24 02:22:49 <MC1984> people like communities, they like rules, they like being offerd a bit of authority but not too much
 321 2013-07-24 02:23:13 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin isn't just money, its a question about people's ability to self organize and self govern without— in a very strong sense— trusted authorities who can abuse their position.
 322 2013-07-24 02:25:26 <MC1984> it is purly about money though
 323 2013-07-24 02:25:26 <MC1984> i honestly dont think people give a shit about the lack of central authority thing
 324 2013-07-24 02:25:26 <MC1984> people love authorities
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 326 2013-07-24 02:25:26 <MC1984> they might get the gist of that if you paint it as akin to a small town community where the mayor is whoever
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 338 2013-07-24 02:25:27 <gmaxwell> but not _against_ other kinds of organization, bitcoin isn't opposed to authortarian rule, it's an alternative to it in a space where previously we could only use authority and trust to solve our problems.
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 343 2013-07-24 02:26:25 <MC1984> see now im just a bloke and now im spacking out over what you just said :)
 344 2013-07-24 02:26:43 <MC1984> "But i thought this was about internet money?"
 345 2013-07-24 02:27:23 <sipa> no, it's about being able to create unlimited amounts of money with just your computer!!!
 346 2013-07-24 02:27:48 <jrmithdobbs> i thought it was about free money for illicit drug trafficking?
 347 2013-07-24 02:27:57 <MC1984> now were sliding too far down the dunce scale to reasonably cater to
 348 2013-07-24 02:28:00 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 349 2013-07-24 02:28:35 <MC1984> gmaxwell isnt bitcoin opposed to authoritarian rule by definition of simply being an alternative to it
 350 2013-07-24 02:29:05 <MC1984> that is, the animosity comes from the authority side and not the bitcoin side
 351 2013-07-24 02:32:15 <gmaxwell> no way, there is plenty of anti-authority animosity in bitcoin land.
 352 2013-07-24 02:32:44 <gmaxwell> we supress some of the most agressive of it on #bitcoin-* and on the forums, but there is still a lot.
 353 2013-07-24 02:32:46 <MC1984> well im not talking about preaching to th choir
 354 2013-07-24 02:34:01 <jrmithdobbs> it does tend to attract the worst of the worst whining lolbertarians, yes ;p
 355 2013-07-24 02:34:14 <gmaxwell> MC1984: RE your "i honestly dont think people give a shit about the lack of central authority" ... well if so then they probably shouldn't be using bitcoin.
 356 2013-07-24 02:34:21 <MC1984> im pretty anti authoity in many ways, but only becaus they tend to act so badly when it matters
 357 2013-07-24 02:34:29 <MC1984> i recognise them as a fact of life
 358 2013-07-24 02:34:37 <gmaxwell> MC1984: because the whole no-centeral-authority thing really creates limitations for bitcoin.
 359 2013-07-24 02:34:50 <gmaxwell> And if you're willing to have one, you can build something that works better.
 360 2013-07-24 02:34:53 <jrmithdobbs> major limitations
 361 2013-07-24 02:35:16 <jrmithdobbs> ya, you could drop the 10 min txn acceptance time, and all sorts of the other things that confuse users
 362 2013-07-24 02:35:37 <MC1984> thats the thing, this is the rub here..............i dont think enough people give enough of a shit about the downsides of authoity systems
 363 2013-07-24 02:35:40 tyn has joined
 364 2013-07-24 02:35:47 <MC1984> for bitcoin to take ove or whateve
 365 2013-07-24 02:35:54 <gmaxwell> But I like to think that we can have a big tent that include anti-authority people, maybe-authority people, and people who love authority-based things but just want alternatives.
 366 2013-07-24 02:36:06 <MC1984> most people would probably have to be sold on it via other means
 367 2013-07-24 02:36:39 <gmaxwell> there are some other arguments, but a lot of them are pretty weak.
 368 2013-07-24 02:36:52 <jrmithdobbs> MC1984: lets see how this current round of financial screwups/corruption actually finishes playing out. At least some of the smarter people are starting to realize why it's bad for the global economy
 369 2013-07-24 02:37:29 <jrmithdobbs> problem is, the people realizing it have no authoritity and those with authoritity don't care because they made the <pick your mess of choice> with no consequences and bilions in profits
 370 2013-07-24 02:37:37 <MC1984> i dont know man. Occupy happened but that petered out
 371 2013-07-24 02:38:26 <gmaxwell> There is power in building something vs complaining about something.
 372 2013-07-24 02:38:38 <MC1984> how many times in history was comprehensive freedom specifically and conciously architected
 373 2013-07-24 02:38:57 <MC1984> i cant think of only the founding of the states, and that looks to have lasted barely 250 years
 374 2013-07-24 02:38:58 <gmaxwell> Occupy had problems figuring out what the question was, we have an answer. Maybe not the exact answer you were looking for, but its something concrete.
 375 2013-07-24 02:39:34 <gmaxwell> One thing is that it's very hard to sell freedom:  If I go up to you and say "hey, man— you're being opressed" "uh wtf. If I were being opressed I'd bloddy well know it!"
 376 2013-07-24 02:40:03 <MC1984> true
 377 2013-07-24 02:40:24 <jrmithdobbs> damn you, i don't have any monty python with me on this plane, not cool!
 378 2013-07-24 02:40:47 <MC1984> tell that to the dutchman who had a wire for cuban cigars seized by the US because his bank converted it into USD for a fraction of a second, or something
 379 2013-07-24 02:41:19 <nsh> should have flown spanish inq.
 380 2013-07-24 02:41:24 <gmaxwell> yea, so certantly you can have your own personal RMS-printer-moment and realize that there is a problem.  But "religious expirence" is not really a great advocacy strategy, or at least not one that scales.
 381 2013-07-24 02:41:52 <MC1984> rms printer?
 382 2013-07-24 02:41:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: did i miss rms drama/hilarity?
 383 2013-07-24 02:42:07 <jrmithdobbs> or was a printer what started his crazy "I wont use modern hardware" crap?
 384 2013-07-24 02:42:48 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: His biography uses the story as a crystalizing example of why he decided that software freedom was was important.
 385 2013-07-24 02:43:16 <jrmithdobbs> someone wrote a biography on stallman?
 386 2013-07-24 02:43:20 <nsh> "In 1980, Stallman and some other hackers at the AI Lab were refused access to the source code for the software of a newly installed laser printer, the Xerox 9700. Stallman had modified the software for the Lab's previous laser printer (the XGP, Xerographic Printer), so it electronically messaged a user when the person's job was printed, and would message all logged-in users waiting for print jobs if the printer was jammed. Not being able to add these featur
 387 2013-07-24 02:43:20 <nsh> es to the new printer was a major inconvenience, as the printer was on a different floor from most of the users. This experience convinced Stallman of people's need to be free to modify the software they use." -WP
 388 2013-07-24 02:43:58 <MC1984> PC LOAD LETTER
 389 2013-07-24 02:43:59 <gmaxwell> Yea, the story has a bunch of fun byzantine politics that he bounced off of along the way.
 390 2013-07-24 02:44:06 patcon has joined
 391 2013-07-24 02:44:37 <MC1984> rms isnt anti authorith though
 392 2013-07-24 02:44:43 <gmaxwell> Like people who _HAD THE SOURCE_ but were under NDAs that didn't yet them give it to the lab... and the lab just wanted the damn thing to alert them to jams, something they'd hacked their old printer to do.
 393 2013-07-24 02:44:51 <MC1984> when asked about the financial lolapalooza he seemed quit the statist
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 395 2013-07-24 02:45:29 <jrmithdobbs> MC1984: i think that's more of a "that's not my area" type of issue
 396 2013-07-24 02:45:57 <MC1984> na h had some good ideas about how to tackle monopolies and general corporatism
 397 2013-07-24 02:46:04 <gmaxwell> my point there was that some people will have quasi religious expirences where the importance of bitcoin is suddenly crystal clear to them. People who get their bank accounts frozen for no good reason or whatever.
 398 2013-07-24 02:46:08 <gmaxwell> etc.
 399 2013-07-24 02:46:11 <jrmithdobbs> i'll poke fun at rms all day but his expertise and contributions are pretty well relegated to software, fainances and large market-based systems really aren't his area
 400 2013-07-24 02:46:24 <jrmithdobbs> and he tends not to blurt out stuff about things he doesn't know about
 401 2013-07-24 02:46:32 <gmaxwell> Like RMS decided free software was a higher calling because he got burned by dipshit politics and a printer driver.
 402 2013-07-24 02:46:48 <gmaxwell> But that kind of thing doesn't scale well. Most people won't have enlightening expirences.
 403 2013-07-24 02:47:06 <MC1984> when you have the power of logic, you are instantly knowledgable about a great many things
 404 2013-07-24 02:47:46 <gmaxwell> so how do you convince people that whatever freedom you are peddling is valuable when they haven't had whatever magical expirence that made it crystal clear to you?
 405 2013-07-24 02:47:54 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it doesn't scale at all. as a species we seem to have a horrible inability to empathize with *groups* of people we don't know
 406 2013-07-24 02:47:59 <nsh> i'd say that ideology provides the direction, but utility provides the thrust
 407 2013-07-24 02:48:08 <jrmithdobbs> at least when it comes to moral outrage type scenarios
 408 2013-07-24 02:49:18 <gmaxwell> I mean, mostly I think decenteralized systems are sexy, but .... years ago, long before bitcoin, paypal froze my account for _NO REASON_ ... if that hadn't happened maybe I never would have got bitcoin, in spite of my proclivities for cryptography and decenteralization?
 409 2013-07-24 02:50:00 <jrmithdobbs> same, actually
 410 2013-07-24 02:50:03 <MC1984> thats a good point
 411 2013-07-24 02:50:10 <MC1984> thats what snowden tried to change for eg
 412 2013-07-24 02:50:23 agricocb has joined
 413 2013-07-24 02:51:06 <gmaxwell> but if bitcoin's global userbase is limited to people paypal has screwed over.
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 416 2013-07-24 02:51:19 <gmaxwell> hm. well if thats the case perhaps we're slated for world domination after all!
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 418 2013-07-24 02:51:32 <MC1984> those young dumb british tourists who were turned back at the border after tweeting that the were going to "destroy america :D". They had their epiphany moment long before snowden
 419 2013-07-24 02:52:05 <MC1984> i hope everyone doesnt need something like that before they realise the value of something like bitcoin
 420 2013-07-24 02:52:23 <MC1984> it depends on whether you think people are generally capable of a bit of abtract thought
 421 2013-07-24 02:52:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya i was going to say, is there anyone paypal *hasn't* screwed at this point?
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 423 2013-07-24 02:52:39 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 424 2013-07-24 02:53:00 <MC1984> paypal set debt collection on my m8
 425 2013-07-24 02:53:05 <gmaxwell> Well, it's also subtle. Part of the gain from things like bitcoin is that the threat of it makes everything that isn't bitcoin behave a little better.
 426 2013-07-24 02:53:08 <MC1984> after a buyer fucked him over
 427 2013-07-24 02:53:32 <MC1984> dbt collection and the credit score system is something that really rustles my jimmies
 428 2013-07-24 02:53:50 <gmaxwell> So if you want paypal to not suck, you should want bitcoin to be super successful even if you don't want to use bitcoin yourself.
 429 2013-07-24 02:54:14 <MC1984> yes
 430 2013-07-24 02:54:17 <MC1984> competition
 431 2013-07-24 02:54:26 <MC1984> paypal is SORELY in need of it
 432 2013-07-24 02:54:39 <jrmithdobbs> dwella is doing a pretty good job
 433 2013-07-24 02:54:43 <MC1984> again, its a bit of abstract thought
 434 2013-07-24 02:54:43 <jrmithdobbs> dwolla*
 435 2013-07-24 02:54:58 <MC1984> dwolla is a non entity lol
 436 2013-07-24 02:55:05 <jrmithdobbs> (for a centralized system, i mean)
 437 2013-07-24 02:55:41 <gmaxwell> some of the ways that paypal sucks aren't really their fault.  The fraud rules in credit cards are crap and cause a creeping suckage everywhere that touches USD.
 438 2013-07-24 02:55:57 <MC1984> anyone remember the square thing? looked like it mite b cool. heared they ran into a bit of regulatory trouble though
 439 2013-07-24 02:56:03 <jrmithdobbs> MC1984: they're growing organically/naturally in an existing market instead of that huge thrust paypal got out of nowhere thanks to being the only people in the market
 440 2013-07-24 02:56:09 <gmaxwell> e.g. dwolla payments are reversable too. (lol, and were even when their documentation said they weren't)
 441 2013-07-24 02:56:37 <jrmithdobbs> yup
 442 2013-07-24 02:56:53 <jrmithdobbs> but dwolla isn't straight up dicks to their customers and answers the phone ;p
 443 2013-07-24 02:57:19 <MC1984> the thing about bitcoin being ireversible and thus lower merchant overheads and prices etc
 444 2013-07-24 02:57:38 <MC1984> isnt that a bit too trickle down lolcenomics for most people
 445 2013-07-24 02:57:56 <jrmithdobbs> it's not though?
 446 2013-07-24 02:58:10 <jrmithdobbs> there's zero need for the transfer mechanism to support the reversing
 447 2013-07-24 02:58:15 <jrmithdobbs> courts can still demand repayment
 448 2013-07-24 02:58:17 <MC1984> i like how i knew i could get paypal to fuck the guy who sold me a broken piece of shit ps3 on ebay recently
 449 2013-07-24 02:58:33 <jrmithdobbs> petty ;p
 450 2013-07-24 02:58:43 <MC1984> no i just wanted my refund
 451 2013-07-24 02:59:18 <jrmithdobbs> ya but is your one refund worth getting the dude's account frozen and keeping his children from eating? even if he is a scammer?
 452 2013-07-24 02:59:29 <jrmithdobbs> (hyperbole++)
 453 2013-07-24 02:59:29 <MC1984> didnt hear anything off him for 3 weeks
 454 2013-07-24 02:59:53 <MC1984> by fuck i mean id have to file a paypal claim if he forced me to. was very patient
 455 2013-07-24 03:00:12 <jrmithdobbs> right and that gets the account frozen usually
 456 2013-07-24 03:00:24 <MC1984> not my problem
 457 2013-07-24 03:00:31 <jrmithdobbs> and the number of people willing to use paypal as their primary checking/debit account is terrifying
 458 2013-07-24 03:00:42 <MC1984> i wanted a ps3 and bought a box of problems instead
 459 2013-07-24 03:01:12 <jrmithdobbs> so you like the convencience of being able to ruin someone's life (shortterm, usually) when it's convenient for you? shocking. ;p
 460 2013-07-24 03:01:31 <jrmithdobbs> (it's not, this is a common phenomenon)
 461 2013-07-24 03:01:52 <MC1984> if you whole business dies bcause someone files a paypal claim on you youre doing it wrong any way
 462 2013-07-24 03:02:02 <MC1984> im not just throwing away 95 quid
 463 2013-07-24 03:02:08 <jrmithdobbs> well
 464 2013-07-24 03:02:22 <jrmithdobbs> paypal has done that erroneously on numerous occassions based off a single fraud complaint
 465 2013-07-24 03:02:38 <MC1984> i know
 466 2013-07-24 03:02:39 <jrmithdobbs> so i'm not talking far out never happening scenarios or anything
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 468 2013-07-24 03:04:30 <MC1984> fuck i could have filed paypal saying he sent me a box of bricks and probably won
 469 2013-07-24 03:04:34 <MC1984> but i didnt
 470 2013-07-24 03:04:51 <MC1984> and saved on the return postage for 5 fucking kilos
 471 2013-07-24 03:05:02 <MC1984> selling on ebay is a nightmare now
 472 2013-07-24 03:05:06 <jrmithdobbs> actually you know what, the desire for that ability (on the merchant OR the consumer side) is pretty much the exactl"logical" argument behind statements like "the government MUST be able to conduct investigations in secret" (false!) or "The telecoms industry MUST provide backdoors for those we approve of doing so for but noone else"
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 474 2013-07-24 03:05:52 <MC1984> if there was a way to do the sort of dispute mediation i did with no quthority then im all for it
 475 2013-07-24 03:05:58 <MC1984> but i dont se how
 476 2013-07-24 03:06:07 <jrmithdobbs> well
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 478 2013-07-24 03:06:22 <jrmithdobbs> if you think for a minute, you'll realize that with any other company you wouldn't have done it with the money transmitter at all
 479 2013-07-24 03:06:36 <MC1984> thinking that businesses will fly straight and narrow purely due to the threat of word of mouth seems like a libertarian fantasy to me
 480 2013-07-24 03:06:39 <jrmithdobbs> you would have gone to LEOs/courts
 481 2013-07-24 03:06:42 <jrmithdobbs> because it's fraud
 482 2013-07-24 03:06:45 <jrmithdobbs> not a civil matter.
 483 2013-07-24 03:07:55 <MC1984> small claims court os pretty good
 484 2013-07-24 03:07:56 <jrmithdobbs> it's insane to me that paypal even gets involved in that shit.
 485 2013-07-24 03:08:05 <jrmithdobbs> but they've set the precident now, no going back
 486 2013-07-24 03:08:11 <MC1984> i think its 15 quid to file and they usually dont even turn up
 487 2013-07-24 03:08:41 <MC1984> in fact they usually dont respond at all and then its baliff tiem :>
 488 2013-07-24 03:09:10 <MC1984> probably not out of malice on the part of say, curries or pc world, but just becuase theyre useless
 489 2013-07-24 03:10:15 <MC1984> jrmithdobbs paypal are outrageously nosey
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 492 2013-07-24 03:10:45 <MC1984> they demanded a private API for filehosters who take paypal, to check for copyright shit
 493 2013-07-24 03:11:01 <MC1984> this is the best argument for bitcoin
 494 2013-07-24 03:11:19 <jrmithdobbs> ya they're a fucking horrible company.
 495 2013-07-24 03:11:27 <jrmithdobbs> anyways later, landing time. ;p
 496 2013-07-24 03:11:42 <MC1984> safe dude
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 507 2013-07-24 03:31:45 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: maintainers *don't* deal with these kinds of things all the time, that's the point
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 514 2013-07-24 03:50:54 <gjs278> I submitted a patch to upstream leveldb for dragonfly bsd support
 515 2013-07-24 03:51:04 <gjs278> only a matter of time before they accept it
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 519 2013-07-24 03:54:41 <gmaxwell> gjs278: what did you need to change?
 520 2013-07-24 03:55:11 <gjs278> they had a definition for freebsd that just needed to be extended for dragonfly as well
 521 2013-07-24 03:55:49 <gjs278> porting dragonfly software, that is generally the case, anything __FreeBSD__ needs __DragonFly__ as well
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 523 2013-07-24 03:56:06 <Luke-Jr> gjs278: that's annoying
 524 2013-07-24 03:56:18 <Luke-Jr> DragonFly should just define __FreeBSD__ *and* __DragonFly__
 525 2013-07-24 03:56:22 <gjs278> if they had tested for features this of course wouldn't be an issue
 526 2013-07-24 03:56:30 <gjs278> yes it should
 527 2013-07-24 03:56:32 <Luke-Jr> true
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 529 2013-07-24 03:57:06 <gjs278> openrc runs perfectly on dfly by just adding 3 __DragonFly__'s
 530 2013-07-24 03:57:42 <gjs278> it doesn't actually look like that big of an undertaking to boot with openrc on bsds, they've kept compatbility really well even though basically no one has been using it aside from gentoo/alt people
 531 2013-07-24 03:58:00 <Luke-Jr> gjs278: why not fix DragonFly? :P
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 533 2013-07-24 03:58:26 <gjs278> unfortunately it was another __FreeBSD__ defined where dfly needed to be too
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 537 2013-07-24 04:07:24 <MC1984> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinit_(technology) nice bit of advanced p2p tech
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 592 2013-07-24 06:03:03 <mz2013>  Seeking reference info on release with HD wallets.
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 614 2013-07-24 06:31:27 <freewil> how can i view all the peer ip addresses the node is aware of (not just the connected ones)
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 621 2013-07-24 06:33:14 <gmaxwell> freewil: there isn't a handy way to do that.
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 634 2013-07-24 06:46:55 <freewil> hmm
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 636 2013-07-24 06:47:31 <freewil> i was trying to do some testing to see how (and if) the address is relayed for a node configured to only `-connect` to a single node
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 639 2013-07-24 06:55:35 <freewil> well i guess i could use `-connect`, listen=1 and see if anyone else connects to the node
 640 2013-07-24 06:56:23 <gmaxwell> freewil: listen=0 supresses announcement.
 641 2013-07-24 06:56:36 <gmaxwell> so does an inability to discover a public looking ip.
 642 2013-07-24 06:57:24 <freewil> so if a node has listen=0, but connects to a node using -connect, how does it's peer know not to announce the ip to it's peers
 643 2013-07-24 06:58:02 <gmaxwell> freewil: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L3987
 644 2013-07-24 06:58:12 <gmaxwell> freewil: its peer never does that! thats not now bitcoin works.
 645 2013-07-24 06:58:22 <gmaxwell> freewil: nodes announce _themselves_
 646 2013-07-24 06:58:35 <freewil> i see
 647 2013-07-24 06:59:14 <freewil> so the listen=0 node (node A) would have to announce itself to it's peer (node b) for node b to subsequently announce node a to other peers?
 648 2013-07-24 06:59:22 <gmaxwell> Correct.
 649 2013-07-24 06:59:33 <gmaxwell> unless node b is some kind of weird/broken/evil node.
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 651 2013-07-24 07:00:34 <freewil> in which case it wouldnt make much sense to have node a `-connect` to node b
 652 2013-07-24 07:00:49 <gmaxwell> you'd hope. :P
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 654 2013-07-24 07:01:48 <freewil> ha
 655 2013-07-24 07:01:50 <freewil> thanks gmaxwell
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 695 2013-07-24 08:10:09 <Belkaar> Hello, if have found somthing strange: I'm running latest release (compiled myself, no code changes, just removed UPNP via switch). Two nodes on the same machine. One connects to the network and one only connects to the other. The open node kicks off the single connection one after a few days for misbehaving. How can the reference client misbehave?
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 698 2013-07-24 08:15:11 <freewil> gmaxwell, http://blog.inbitbox.com/post/56318538664/saturday-downtime
 699 2013-07-24 08:16:31 <freewil> Belkaar, did the two nodes get out of sync somehow before you configured the one to only talk to the other?
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 701 2013-07-24 08:16:51 <gmaxwell> freewil: ah, thanks.  We've talked before about being able to listen on a seperate port to reserved connections... sounds like thats an example of why that would be helpful.
 702 2013-07-24 08:17:03 <freewil> gmaxwell, yes ;)
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 704 2013-07-24 08:17:51 <Belkaar> freewil: no. they are running fine for two days or so, then it happens again. After restarting the open node its all good again. I have set the ban timeout to two minutes as a workaround
 705 2013-07-24 08:18:10 <Belkaar> freewil: last release version did not show that behaviour
 706 2013-07-24 08:18:12 <freewil> gmaxwell, or if you could just setup reserved spots for certain ips so they can always connect
 707 2013-07-24 08:18:44 <midnightmagic> Belkaar: For some things my p2pool was triggering the anti-DoS stuff in my bitcoind, so I patched it so that RFC1942 addresses are exempt from DoS scoring.
 708 2013-07-24 08:19:23 <midnightmagic> Belkaar: So that's another option, if you feel brave.
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 712 2013-07-24 08:22:14 <Belkaar> midnightmagic: I'm not usig p2pool
 713 2013-07-24 08:23:30 <midnightmagic> I know. I'm just saying you could exempt your other bitcoind from DoS measures
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 715 2013-07-24 08:24:08 <Krellan> i would love reserved spots for certain IP's - i tried limiting my number of connections and my miner couldn't get in :)
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 723 2013-07-24 08:27:19 <Belkaar> Krellan: yes me too :-)
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 770 2013-07-24 08:43:14 <sipa> Belkaar: mind sharing the debug.log files? i'd like to know which dos protection rule is triggeref.
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 773 2013-07-24 08:47:28 <Belkaar> sipa: not at all. one moment, need to compress and upload it
 774 2013-07-24 08:52:17 <Belkaar> sipa: did you get it?
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 810 2013-07-24 11:09:04 <GMP> http://forum.ovh.com/showthread.php?t=89533
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 883 2013-07-24 14:25:57 <randy-waterhouse> anybody played around with using cryptodev for linux to accelerate bitcoin operations?
 884 2013-07-24 14:26:01 <randy-waterhouse> http://cryptodev-linux.org/
 885 2013-07-24 14:26:18 <randy-waterhouse> specifically ssl stuff i'm thinking of
 886 2013-07-24 14:27:29 <randy-waterhouse> block verification for example
 887 2013-07-24 14:27:46 <BlueMatt> I kind of doubt many people have a secp256k1-ecdsa crypto accelerator
 888 2013-07-24 14:27:47 <Scrat> randy-waterhouse: bitcoin doesn't use SSL/TLS in any context that requires acceleration
 889 2013-07-24 14:27:57 <BlueMatt> or that there are even kernel-level drivers to support that
 890 2013-07-24 14:28:03 <BlueMatt> s/kind of doubt/highly doubt/
 891 2013-07-24 14:28:03 <randy-waterhouse> Scrat: ok thanks ...
 892 2013-07-24 14:28:33 <randy-waterhouse> just checking as I was looking into it for something else and occurred to me
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 894 2013-07-24 14:31:26 <Scrat> sipa has written his own lib that does faster verification but something as significant as that will require months of testing
 895 2013-07-24 14:31:45 <Scrat> I don't know how many months, maybe BlueMatt can comment
 896 2013-07-24 14:32:28 <Vinnie_win> months, really?
 897 2013-07-24 14:32:41 <Vinnie_win> Wouldn't it be a trivial matter to just run it against the blockchain and make sure it passes?
 898 2013-07-24 14:32:53 <sipa> Vinnie_win: that's a trivial matter and of course already done
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 901 2013-07-24 14:33:12 <sipa> Vinnie_win: but it's much more important that it also doesn't allow anything that isn't allowed in the blockchain :)
 902 2013-07-24 14:33:15 <Scrat> testing/confidence/whatever
 903 2013-07-24 14:33:22 <sipa> it's not so much testing that requires time
 904 2013-07-24 14:33:29 <sipa> just needs more unit tests
 905 2013-07-24 14:33:32 <sipa> and review
 906 2013-07-24 14:33:38 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Lol yeah....... bool checkSignature (Sig const& sig) { return true; }
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 908 2013-07-24 14:34:25 <randy-waterhouse> all i read was these two pieces "Support for all major cipher algorithms Support for all major hash algorithms" .... and the up to 100x speed up ... sounded good
 909 2013-07-24 14:34:25 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Use both algorithms for a while and report when they differ in opinion
 910 2013-07-24 14:34:27 <t7> just test against every possible 256bit m
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 912 2013-07-24 14:34:42 <t7> make sure the output matched openssl :)
 913 2013-07-24 14:35:06 <t7> they NSA might lend you their quantum super computer
 914 2013-07-24 14:35:48 <t7> that wont actually speed up a classical algorithm tho...
 915 2013-07-24 14:36:26 <t7> maybe those new parallelas cant brute force the entire space
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 920 2013-07-24 14:38:08 <jgarzik> mornin'
 921 2013-07-24 14:38:19 <sipa> Vinnie_win: it's much more likely that an error in the code won't ever trigger accidentally
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 923 2013-07-24 14:38:41 <sipa> Vinnie_win: but only on crafted input
 924 2013-07-24 14:38:51 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Yeah that makes sense. How on earth can one verify the correctness of the thing then?
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 926 2013-07-24 14:40:17 <sipa> Vinnie_win: by having some very smart people look at it :)
 927 2013-07-24 14:40:28 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Well, that rules me out
 928 2013-07-24 14:40:54 <Vinnie_win> Not sure if you guys know this but I'm working for OpenCoin now
 929 2013-07-24 14:41:01 <Scrat> 99.99999% of the earth's population ruled out
 930 2013-07-24 14:41:06 <Scrat> such elitist jerks
 931 2013-07-24 14:41:59 <Vinnie_win> I've developed my own new cross platform library which aims to replace boost and eventually openssl, specifically designed for p2p applications that do crypto: https://github.com/vinniefalco/Beast
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 934 2013-07-24 14:42:59 <jgarzik> You've mentioned ripple on github several times
 935 2013-07-24 14:43:14 <jgarzik> The power of NIH is strong, I agree :)
 936 2013-07-24 14:43:23 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Well, that was before I was an employee.
 937 2013-07-24 14:43:47 <jgarzik> Trying to replace boost is a high bar, when boost is basically "C+++" and a very widely adopted standard
 938 2013-07-24 14:43:52 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Oh, I'm not pretending I wrote all of beast. A lot of it was pulled from other permissively licensed projects
 939 2013-07-24 14:45:12 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: I'm also not pretending to replace all the functionality of boost. Just key classes. And in almost all cases, they are by design restricted in their functionality. For example, no try() on synchronization objects, all mutexes are non-recursive, threads may not be forcibly killed, etc
 940 2013-07-24 14:45:32 <Vinnie_win> Just something to keep an eye on as it evolves!
 941 2013-07-24 14:45:36 <jgarzik> heh, well
 942 2013-07-24 14:45:41 <jgarzik> that matches OS/hardware
 943 2013-07-24 14:45:50 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Not sure what you mean
 944 2013-07-24 14:45:55 <jgarzik> you run into trouble when deviating from the underlying platform
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 947 2013-07-24 14:46:17 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Who deviated
 948 2013-07-24 14:46:48 <jgarzik> try{} on synchronization objects quickly becomes a fight between the C++ exception handling, CPU LOCK prefixed code, and other low level sync primitives
 949 2013-07-24 14:47:26 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Oh, that's good to know. Well I don't like try() because it makes code that uses it more difficult to understand
 950 2013-07-24 14:47:26 <jgarzik> killing a thread is quite an OS-specific thing
 951 2013-07-24 14:47:58 <jgarzik> i.e. there is a real reason why pthread did not originally include a thread-kill, just a thread-join
 952 2013-07-24 14:48:24 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Let me point out that beast works on POSIX systems, windows, ios, and android
 953 2013-07-24 14:48:33 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: and also FreeBSD unfortunately >.<
 954 2013-07-24 14:49:12 <jgarzik> That changes nothing of what I said ;p
 955 2013-07-24 14:49:20 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Agreed!
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1136 2013-07-24 19:45:57 <jgarzik> No testnet coins generated by my laptop in 4 days.  I wonder if internal mining is indeed broken.
1137 2013-07-24 19:46:18 <petertodd> expected time to gen?
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1156 2013-07-24 20:08:37 <petertodd> jgarzik: p2pool luck has been getting very bad lately, possibly related
1157 2013-07-24 20:09:19 <petertodd> Won't know for a few more weeks with certainty though. :(
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1178 2013-07-24 20:35:39 <[Tycho]> Who is the owner of BBE ?
1179 2013-07-24 20:35:58 <petertodd> BBE=?
1180 2013-07-24 20:36:00 <petertodd> block explorer?
1181 2013-07-24 20:36:47 imton has joined
1182 2013-07-24 20:38:21 <sipa> originally theymos afaik, but i think he sold it or something
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1205 2013-07-24 21:31:04 <Krellan> petertodd: p2pool luck is strange indeed, nothing for days, then 3 blocks last night :)
1206 2013-07-24 21:32:07 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1207 2013-07-24 21:32:08 <gmaxwell> thats what life is like when you're <1% of the hashpower
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1210 2013-07-24 21:33:44 <CodeShark> it should be possible to calculate the exact variance and expected frequency of such events and see whether it really is improbable before drawing any conclusions
1211 2013-07-24 21:34:04 <[Tycho]> I asked because BBE is stuck for at least a couple of days.
1212 2013-07-24 21:35:17 [404] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1213 2013-07-24 21:38:28 <gmaxwell> stuck at 247902
1214 2013-07-24 21:38:41 <gmaxwell> 2013-07-22.
1215 2013-07-24 21:38:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you are a bad bad man.
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1221 2013-07-24 21:41:16 Neozonz is now known as Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Neozonz
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1224 2013-07-24 21:44:08 <gmaxwell> hm. no petertodd's buster transaction was in 247939.
1225 2013-07-24 21:44:39 B0g4r7 has joined
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1227 2013-07-24 21:47:01 <CodeShark> lol, petertodd broke BBE?
1228 2013-07-24 21:47:06 <CodeShark> what transaction?
1229 2013-07-24 21:48:59 coeus has joined
1230 2013-07-24 21:51:29 <gmaxwell> he broke a lot of stuff
1231 2013-07-24 21:51:49 theo` has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1232 2013-07-24 21:51:49 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=260595.0
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1235 2013-07-24 21:53:42 <[Tycho]> "re-implementations are dangerous because they invariably have bugs and don't duplicate bitcoin-qt behavior exactly" - not good
1236 2013-07-24 21:54:34 PRab has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1237 2013-07-24 21:54:45 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: he's referring to the normative blockchain validation rules, where thre is no room for ambiguity or differences between versions.
1238 2013-07-24 21:55:49 <nsh> "I was auditing litecoin this weekend, and in the process found a half-dozen obscure edge cases in Bitcoin's scripting code that I didn't know about it, and I'm already an expert on how Bitcoin works. Frankly the science of software engineering just isn't at the point where we know how to re-implement bitcoin and get it right. This is a problem at least as hard as writing safety-critical flight avionics software; in my opinion it's probably harder."
1239 2013-07-24 21:55:51 <nsh> heh...
1240 2013-07-24 21:56:28 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
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1242 2013-07-24 21:58:28 <MC1984> welp
1243 2013-07-24 21:58:40 <CodeShark> there's also the problem that a "bug" becomes a feature if the reference implementation has it
1244 2013-07-24 21:59:18 <sipa> s/reference/deployed/
1245 2013-07-24 21:59:55 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: The whole idea of a bug is such an egocentric thing to being with.  What is a 'bug' is not all code equal in the eyes of the universe?
1246 2013-07-24 22:00:00 <gmaxwell> :P
1247 2013-07-24 22:00:26 <CodeShark> I would define "bug" to be anything which causes a program to behave differently than what its author intended
1248 2013-07-24 22:01:06 <gmaxwell> "Author" implies a privleged position. :P
1249 2013-07-24 22:01:24 <sipa> as i said before... in the march 2013 fork, 0.7 was buggy because it didn't do what was intended, but 0.8 was at fault for not copying the bug :)
1250 2013-07-24 22:01:32 <gmaxwell> In any case, I like to say that in bitcoin consistency is often more important than correctness.
1251 2013-07-24 22:02:01 <gmaxwell> In bitcoin if an 'author' is competent they'll always intend consistency. :)
1252 2013-07-24 22:03:25 <sipa> the question now becomes what if we had known about the bdb limitation ahead of time
1253 2013-07-24 22:03:44 <sipa> i guess we would have hard forked away from it just as well
1254 2013-07-24 22:04:08 <CodeShark> sipa: while lack of knowledge of the bdb limitation surely factors in, the program could still be designed to better handle such circumstances
1255 2013-07-24 22:04:13 <gmaxwell> on that subject. There are apparently hundreds of altcoin forks now, including ones with 20 second blocks. (0_o)
1256 2013-07-24 22:04:14 <CodeShark> like dying rather than rejecting the block
1257 2013-07-24 22:04:29 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: we do now.. but not all failures are sure to return errors.
1258 2013-07-24 22:05:24 <sipa> good point, if we had had that behaviour in 0.7 already, this would not have been a fork
1259 2013-07-24 22:05:28 <sipa> but a DoS attack
1260 2013-07-24 22:05:29 <MC1984> what about the 2 or 3 alternative full implementations people are doing
1261 2013-07-24 22:05:38 <MC1984> ar you saying they are doomed
1262 2013-07-24 22:05:42 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: for example there is a leveldb bug which during compaction can may deleted keys return: http://code.google.com/p/leveldb/issues/detail?id=178
1263 2013-07-24 22:06:21 <sipa> btw, a fully header-synced bitcoind running for 24h: 152 MiB RES
1264 2013-07-24 22:06:25 <CodeShark> I think you flipped some words around in that sentence, gmaxwell
1265 2013-07-24 22:06:27 <sipa> (0 blocks synced)
1266 2013-07-24 22:06:36 <sipa> CodeShark: s/may/make/
1267 2013-07-24 22:06:38 <gmaxwell> er may make deleted keys return.
1268 2013-07-24 22:07:02 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: with that kind of error you'd never hit an error condition that you'd never hit a condition that you could detect and shut down.
1269 2013-07-24 22:07:22 <gmaxwell> In any case, what I was saying about these alt things is that a lot of them are actually getting killed by attacks.
1270 2013-07-24 22:07:30 <gmaxwell> And we're not learning anything from them.
1271 2013-07-24 22:07:51 <gmaxwell> The bummer is that most of them are based on forks of the litecoin code, which is really old... so it's not clear if there is anything to learn.
1272 2013-07-24 22:08:58 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1273 2013-07-24 22:09:15 <MC1984> isnt th rise and fall of these coins being reasonable documented in the respective altcoin forum threads and git pages
1274 2013-07-24 22:09:16 <gmaxwell> warren: is the ltc code updated yet?  all these moron forks being on new code would be more useful to us.
1275 2013-07-24 22:09:38 <gmaxwell> MC1984: no, because no one is doing analysis on why they are failing.
1276 2013-07-24 22:10:11 <gmaxwell> MC1984: a lot of them are being put out by people who are less technical than you are.
1277 2013-07-24 22:10:47 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1278 2013-07-24 22:10:52 <MC1984> not sure if insult lol
1279 2013-07-24 22:11:05 <gmaxwell> I did say less, I didn't specify how much!
1280 2013-07-24 22:11:14 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1281 2013-07-24 22:11:29 <CodeShark> if the protocol itself (as in the message types) is reused by all of them, then really, if we were to make the validation portion pluggable then at least we could make it easy to update the rest
1282 2013-07-24 22:12:10 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: they're search-and-replaces on litecoin. There is no update difficulty wrt that.
1283 2013-07-24 22:12:36 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1284 2013-07-24 22:12:38 <gmaxwell> Litecoin went through a long period of zero technical involvement. They could have kept up with bitcoin without too much trouble but didn't.
1285 2013-07-24 22:13:35 <CodeShark> on the other hand, I think sipa might have at least somewhat of a point in claiming that any altcoin that can reuse substantial portions of bitcoind's code is probably not innovating sufficiently to be interesting
1286 2013-07-24 22:13:45 <gmaxwell> It took bitcoin mining software emitting header version 2 blocks slopply applied to litecoin causing all litecoin nodes to display a "YOUR SOFTWARE IS OUT OF DATE" alert before they started up updating anything. :P
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1289 2013-07-24 22:14:23 <gmaxwell> oh absolutely, these altcoin things being parasitic on our technical work is lame and demotivating too.
1290 2013-07-24 22:14:45 <gmaxwell> They do basically no interesting technical development.  But that doesn't mean we can't get something useful out of them.
1291 2013-07-24 22:15:01 <gmaxwell> They're frequently attacked, so we could potentially learn about attacks that people aren't bothering to perform on bitcoin.
1292 2013-07-24 22:15:38 <gmaxwell> they also randomly change parameters without much though, which might be exposing interesting corner cases.
1293 2013-07-24 22:15:46 <MC1984> interesting attacks though? or just 51% steamroller
1294 2013-07-24 22:16:42 <gmaxwell> some are not reorg attacks, no. there has been a fair amount of DOS attacks.
1295 2013-07-24 22:17:33 <gmaxwell> I believe one of them has more blocks than bitcoin does now.
1296 2013-07-24 22:17:48 <gmaxwell> (due to 20 second blocks)
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1299 2013-07-24 22:19:55 <warren> gmaxwell: ltc code has been ready for a while now, waiting on our code auditor to finish before official release
1300 2013-07-24 22:20:14 <warren> gmaxwell: "more useful to us" in what way though?  don't you want them to collapse from their unfixed bugs? =P
1301 2013-07-24 22:21:09 <gmaxwell> warren: http://www.despair.com/mistakes.html
1302 2013-07-24 22:21:42 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1304 2013-07-24 22:22:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: also called 'canaries' :P
1305 2013-07-24 22:22:12 PRab has joined
1306 2013-07-24 22:23:00 <gmaxwell> But they're not if no one is paying attention or uh. if they're all old and sick birds that you expect to die anyways. :P
1307 2013-07-24 22:23:05 ielo has joined
1308 2013-07-24 22:23:24 <warren> gmaxwell: the FTC difficulty "fix" made a very-difficult-to-exploit pool software DoS into very easy to exploit, so they were in effect a canary
1309 2013-07-24 22:23:39 <sipa> the FTC has an altcoin :o
1310 2013-07-24 22:23:46 <gmaxwell> "feathercoin"
1311 2013-07-24 22:23:50 <sipa> Oh.
1312 2013-07-24 22:24:08 <jchp> (fartcoin)
1313 2013-07-24 22:24:11 <gmaxwell> yea, a lot of these things have introduced loltastic errors. We don't learn much from that, at least not that we didn't already know.
1314 2013-07-24 22:24:33 <warren> gmaxwell: of something like 30 litecoin clones, only two changed the alert key, so somehow the "Upgrade your Litecoin now!" alert got onto all their networks.  Morons.
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1316 2013-07-24 22:25:02 <CodeShark> also, a good number of them didn't even bother to change the datadir name nor the config file name - and at least one that I know of didn't even change the magic bytes :p
1317 2013-07-24 22:25:03 <sipa> ... 30
1318 2013-07-24 22:25:17 <warren> gmaxwell: and in their infinite wisdom, they "fixed" it by issuing a client update that just turned off alerts instead of changing the alert key.
1319 2013-07-24 22:25:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: there are something like 300 known ones in total or something insane like that
1320 2013-07-24 22:25:27 <jchp> i remember a couple didn't bother changing ports and IRC channels too
1321 2013-07-24 22:25:33 <sipa> lolwut?
1322 2013-07-24 22:25:59 <sipa> where is this vast piece of internet i'm unfamiliar with?
1323 2013-07-24 22:26:00 <gmaxwell> I was joking the other day that we should have an IRC event where everyone makes their own altcoin.
1324 2013-07-24 22:26:20 <CodeShark> to make an altcoin nowadays it seems all it takes is to change the readme file :p
1325 2013-07-24 22:26:21 <jchp> still waiting for someone to make a automated altcoin service heh
1326 2013-07-24 22:26:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: i've suggested a metacoin before... you mine a block by starting a succesful altcoin
1327 2013-07-24 22:26:29 <warren> The exchanges allow trading of tiny coins with almost no hashrate.  They protect themselves by requiring hundreds of confirmations for deposits.
1328 2013-07-24 22:26:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: do I get credit for TBC, or do I need to make a new one?
1329 2013-07-24 22:26:35 <warren> Incredible failboat.
1330 2013-07-24 22:26:38 <jchp> prepackaged binaries/websites/etc.
1331 2013-07-24 22:26:48 <gmaxwell> I'd say we could compete on who could add the funniest bugs but the real altcoins would be serious competition.
1332 2013-07-24 22:26:49 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that's just a different unit...
1333 2013-07-24 22:26:59 <CodeShark> actually, at least one or two altcoins I looked at didn't even change the readme file
1334 2013-07-24 22:27:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: which is all most altcoins should be
1335 2013-07-24 22:27:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: more different than some altcoins!
1336 2013-07-24 22:27:14 <sipa> ... I can't argue with that.
1337 2013-07-24 22:27:18 <Luke-Jr> :P
1338 2013-07-24 22:27:42 <gmaxwell> warren: they're fools in any case. Will they adopt BufferoverflowCoin?
1339 2013-07-24 22:27:53 <warren> gmaxwell: several bitcoin devs I hear are in favor of making a "altcoin generating" app.  Does all the renaming, changing ports and whatever, generates a new git tree and homepage.  Would be wonderful to have thousands of new clones flood the Alt coin forum.
1340 2013-07-24 22:28:00 serialbandicoot has quit (Quit: serialbandicoot)
1341 2013-07-24 22:28:02 <warren> gmaxwell: sure!  they don't care about security
1342 2013-07-24 22:28:13 <gmaxwell> Well I believe that was actually my suggestion.
1343 2013-07-24 22:28:20 <warren> heh
1344 2013-07-24 22:28:28 <sipa> warren: it should also ramdomly delete one line of code (in such a way that it still compiles)
1345 2013-07-24 22:28:33 <CodeShark> lol
1346 2013-07-24 22:28:35 <warren> sipa: sure!  diversity!
1347 2013-07-24 22:28:39 <Graet> lol
1348 2013-07-24 22:28:42 <gmaxwell> ALTCOIN EVOLUTION
1349 2013-07-24 22:28:44 <CodeShark> let's just change one return value somewhere, sipa
1350 2013-07-24 22:28:46 <warren> random mutation
1351 2013-07-24 22:28:50 <gmaxwell> "Your coin is evolving"
1352 2013-07-24 22:28:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: now we need crossover
1353 2013-07-24 22:28:54 <gmaxwell> "aww. Didn't compile"
1354 2013-07-24 22:28:59 <warren> hahah
1355 2013-07-24 22:29:11 ielo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1356 2013-07-24 22:29:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: oh, i know... if the magic bytes are equal, they send code patches to eachother
1357 2013-07-24 22:29:18 <sipa> binary mutations
1358 2013-07-24 22:29:22 <Luke-Jr> lol
1359 2013-07-24 22:29:22 <gmaxwell> you laugh, but mutation testing is a totally valid form of software testing which has saved my bacon multiple times. :P
1360 2013-07-24 22:29:34 <Scrat> oh lawd GA bitcoind creator.. DO IT
1361 2013-07-24 22:29:35 <sipa> you have mutated bacon?
1362 2013-07-24 22:29:36 owowo has joined
1363 2013-07-24 22:29:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh little ringlets of code like bacteria.
1364 2013-07-24 22:29:43 <jchp> that sure sounds like a justification for programming drunk
1365 2013-07-24 22:29:58 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1366 2013-07-24 22:30:02 <CodeShark> it's cheaper to just genetically engineer the pigs nowadays
1367 2013-07-24 22:30:04 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1368 2013-07-24 22:30:13 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if the altcoin "community" *could* be used for guided evolution
1369 2013-07-24 22:30:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, because they're a crappy objective function.
1370 2013-07-24 22:30:35 <Luke-Jr> if the number of active nodes is high, it has a higher chance of being integrated in the next generation code
1371 2013-07-24 22:30:36 <gmaxwell> I bet the primary fittness criteria is your name.
1372 2013-07-24 22:30:46 <Luke-Jr> lol
1373 2013-07-24 22:30:56 <gmaxwell> It's like cryptocurrency idiocracy.
1374 2013-07-24 22:31:24 imton has joined
1375 2013-07-24 22:31:32 <gmaxwell> Well the name of the creator seems to have some power now too.
1376 2013-07-24 22:31:41 <gmaxwell> (and I wonder which one of you is Sunny King)
1377 2013-07-24 22:31:43 <sipa> WuilleCoin
1378 2013-07-24 22:31:46 <sipa> Nah.
1379 2013-07-24 22:32:00 <gmaxwell> SIPA sounds enough like SEPA
1380 2013-07-24 22:32:02 <warren> Luke-Jr: survival of the fittest is hard to measure for altcoins
1381 2013-07-24 22:32:12 <CodeShark> genetic algorithms will produce crappy results when those performing the selection are idiots
1382 2013-07-24 22:32:21 <warren> Luke-Jr: many survive from the power of shills instead of competent dev and a stable network
1383 2013-07-24 22:32:29 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: also when you can't try millions of variations.
1384 2013-07-24 22:32:53 <CodeShark> millions of variations could, in principle, be tried in simulation
1385 2013-07-24 22:32:57 <jchp> it was pretty surprising how much shilling and disinfo PR campaign went on with feathercoin
1386 2013-07-24 22:33:14 <sipa> CodeShark: can you accurately model the internet trolls that run them?
1387 2013-07-24 22:33:45 <gmaxwell> A NEW KIND OF TROLLING.
1388 2013-07-24 22:33:45 <warren> FTC had a major pool exploit that shutdown mining of the largest pools, allowing a very cheap reorg attack.  The attacker managed to do a 72 block reorg.  Exchange value didn't drop.  FTC users are used to world breaking attacks, and they have confidence in their dev to issue another emergency update with another poorly design "fix".
1389 2013-07-24 22:33:47 <CodeShark> sipa: if I could I'd probably be working on that project instead of this one :p
1390 2013-07-24 22:34:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: did you hear about the altcoin with 2 blocks per second?
1391 2013-07-24 22:34:29 <gmaxwell> warren: yea, they make heavy use of checkpoints for those fixes, which is partially viable because there is almost no real economic activity, so just some guy picking a winner actually works.
1392 2013-07-24 22:34:31 dadef has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1393 2013-07-24 22:34:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: haha no.
1394 2013-07-24 22:34:50 <gmaxwell> Non-convergence-coin?
1395 2013-07-24 22:34:55 <warren> gmaxwell: after that last attack a few days ago, they're now talking about centralized checkpoints
1396 2013-07-24 22:34:57 <Luke-Jr> I think they called it Awesomecoin
1397 2013-07-24 22:35:00 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i would be interested to know in their actual block rate
1398 2013-07-24 22:35:05 <gmaxwell> LiquidCoin was like that and failed on the first (second?) day.
1399 2013-07-24 22:35:20 <gmaxwell> (they just fixed their difficulty)
1400 2013-07-24 22:36:09 denom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1402 2013-07-24 22:36:21 <petertodd> sipa: you realize that your block blacklist patch is in effect an alt-coin generator?
1403 2013-07-24 22:36:28 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1404 2013-07-24 22:36:33 <petertodd> sipa: Don't even have to recompile...
1405 2013-07-24 22:36:38 <sipa> petertodd: ?
1406 2013-07-24 22:36:49 <sipa> you do!
1407 2013-07-24 22:36:55 <sipa> with -DENABLE_BLOCK_BLACKLISTING
1408 2013-07-24 22:36:59 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, it's not exposed normally.
1409 2013-07-24 22:37:08 <gmaxwell> Sipa is not a madman.
1410 2013-07-24 22:37:26 <sipa> That's what they want you to think.
1411 2013-07-24 22:37:44 <petertodd> sipa: -DENABLE_BLOCK_BLACKLISTING ruined my joke :(
1412 2013-07-24 22:37:52 <gmaxwell> it should be -DENABLE_DANGEROUS_BLOCK_BLACKLISTING  lest some disto build with it on. :(
1413 2013-07-24 22:37:58 * petertodd is going to start -DENABLE_BLOCK_BLACKLISTING's gitian builds
1414 2013-07-24 22:38:06 agricocb has joined
1415 2013-07-24 22:38:22 <warren> the blacklisting patch was merged?
1416 2013-07-24 22:38:29 <sipa> no
1417 2013-07-24 22:38:29 <gmaxwell> -DKILL_PUPPIES_AND_KITTENS
1418 2013-07-24 22:38:34 <warren> gmaxwell: win
1419 2013-07-24 22:38:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Oh, does that help me win on SatoshiDice?
1420 2013-07-24 22:39:04 DoctorBTC has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1421 2013-07-24 22:39:22 andyh2 has joined
1422 2013-07-24 22:39:25 <warren> wouldn't a permafork within an existing coin continue storage bloat on both sides of the fork?
1423 2013-07-24 22:39:44 <petertodd> warren: yes
1424 2013-07-24 22:39:50 <gmaxwell> In Opus I had to make one of these not-for-mortals defines -DNONTHREADSAFE_PSEUDOSTACK  because even though the docs explain that it's not threadsafe people were finding it in the code and enabling it and complaining that it wasn't threadsafe.
1425 2013-07-24 22:39:53 <petertodd> warren: better yet is an n-way fork
1426 2013-07-24 22:40:15 <warren> win
1427 2013-07-24 22:40:33 <gmaxwell> (it's a switch for low memory embeded devices without an MMU to use a global chunk of heap as 'stack' to share memory between encoders and decoders)
1428 2013-07-24 22:42:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'll shorten that to USE=embedded
1429 2013-07-24 22:42:44 PRab_ has joined
1430 2013-07-24 22:42:52 <gmaxwell> GAH.
1431 2013-07-24 22:42:55 <Luke-Jr> lol
1432 2013-07-24 22:44:09 <petertodd> heh, sergio extended by sighash_single rediscovery: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=261139.msg2797350#msg2797350
1433 2013-07-24 22:44:42 <petertodd> sipa: I was so close to figuring that out at the conf...
1434 2013-07-24 22:45:13 PRab has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1435 2013-07-24 22:45:13 <sipa> petertodd: sorry that i didn't just randomly started telling you about it :)
1436 2013-07-24 22:45:23 PRab_ is now known as PRab
1437 2013-07-24 22:46:01 <petertodd> sipa: heh, probably all the best, glad to see we can reproduce finding it :)
1438 2013-07-24 22:46:37 <gmaxwell> yea, actually it's a good indicator for your latest review work.
1439 2013-07-24 22:46:41 <warren> gmaxwell: regarding the fork warning patch, what better way than "overloading checkpoints" would there be to avoid unnecessary scary warnings in logs during -reindex?
1440 2013-07-24 22:47:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: indeed, so don't tell me about how you bugged the privkey RNG
1441 2013-07-24 22:47:39 <Luke-Jr> warren: the one I commented
1442 2013-07-24 22:47:50 <warren> oh, missed mail
1443 2013-07-24 22:47:54 <gmaxwell> warren: "don't warn" this isn't hard in any fundimental way. I mean the longer chain is your own chain you haven't processed yet.
1444 2013-07-24 22:49:38 <petertodd> re: code_separator, I was thinking it'd help if I write a signaturehash or createsignature RPC call so that signing oddball transactions isn't a huge pain in the ass - probably part of why we have so few signature related tests
1445 2013-07-24 22:50:18 <gmaxwell> meh, if its only useful for testing it should probably be external.. esp if it could easily be a footgun with those sighash singles.
1446 2013-07-24 22:50:35 <gmaxwell> we've lacked tests that were perfectly reachable from the rpc before.
1447 2013-07-24 22:51:14 * sipa suggests: softfork that replaces OP_CODESEPARATOR by OP_RETURN
1448 2013-07-24 22:51:22 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1449 2013-07-24 22:51:28 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1450 2013-07-24 22:51:44 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I don't think it'd be a footgun if you implement it such that all it gives you is a bare hex signature.
1451 2013-07-24 22:52:12 <gmaxwell> if thats all you're doing, it's a small python script to achieve that.
1452 2013-07-24 22:52:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Make it sufficiently hard to use/low-level that only footgun certified users use it.
1453 2013-07-24 22:52:23 <gmaxwell> which could just be dropped in contrib.
1454 2013-07-24 22:52:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: But the python script isn't with the bitcoin codebase, so you can't use it to try to compare implementations or do other interesting stuff - also thinking of a "validatetransaction" RPC to get access to validation machinery.
1455 2013-07-24 22:53:09 <petertodd> (and split up mempool.accept() into validation vs. policy)
1456 2013-07-24 22:53:50 <petertodd> sipa: you see my post on how codeseparator could have been used?
1457 2013-07-24 22:53:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: just make decoderawtransaction tell you about validity.
1458 2013-07-24 22:53:56 <sipa> petertodd: no
1459 2013-07-24 22:54:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: validity is most useful if you can set a coins state to compare against, IE, validatetransaction should have a means of validating more than one at a time
1460 2013-07-24 22:55:10 <sipa> i feel this is something that we need a bitcoin library for
1461 2013-07-24 22:55:16 <sipa> rather than an RPC API
1462 2013-07-24 22:55:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: ::sigh:: we already have a lot of underused rpc features. :(
1463 2013-07-24 22:55:38 <petertodd> sipa: forums down, but point being if satoshi hadn't done scriptSig + OP_CODESEPARATOR + scriptPubKey in v0.1, you could have used OP_CODESEPARATOR to change the scriptPubKey after the fact
1464 2013-07-24 22:55:51 <petertodd> sipa: sure, but that's a long way off
1465 2013-07-24 22:55:53 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1466 2013-07-24 22:56:35 <petertodd> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255145.msg2773654#msg2773654
1467 2013-07-24 22:56:37 <MC1984> DO NOT WRITE FULL-NODE RE-IMPLEMENTATIONS OF BITCOIN
1468 2013-07-24 22:56:37 <MC1984> YOU ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO MAKE THEM SECURE, NOBODY IS
1469 2013-07-24 22:56:43 <MC1984> gosh thats a bol statement
1470 2013-07-24 22:56:56 <sipa> i'm sure there are many people smart enough to do so
1471 2013-07-24 22:57:13 <sipa> most of them are however smart enough to realize how much work it is, to never bother starting :)
1472 2013-07-24 22:57:17 <petertodd> MC1984: it may be a wrong statement, but no-one has *proven* it wrong yet
1473 2013-07-24 22:57:31 <petertodd> MC1984: not even with a probabalistic proof :)
1474 2013-07-24 22:57:45 <MC1984> its scary because if even somewhat tru it means bitcoin cant be forked
1475 2013-07-24 22:58:03 <MC1984> de facto not OSS
1476 2013-07-24 22:58:13 <petertodd> MC1984: Currently that's correct: bitcoin can't be forked (statement applies only to core validation machinery, but we're not quite sure what that is)
1477 2013-07-24 22:58:32 <petertodd> MC1984: OSS only means you're allowed to make changes, it doesn't mean that making correct changes is easy
1478 2013-07-24 22:59:01 <MC1984> it means you cant try but will probably fail and get bumped off the network
1479 2013-07-24 22:59:05 <petertodd> MC1984: The whole point of statements like that is to tell people who don't really understand the problem "HOLY FUCKING CRAP IS THIS HARD!" because when you're just re-implementing a library, it doesn't *look* hard.
1480 2013-07-24 22:59:41 <MC1984> thats means the current dev team and the repo they control are far more valuable and/or vulnerable, depending on your point of view, than anyone has surmised
1481 2013-07-24 22:59:49 <petertodd> IMO how simple Bitcoin is is a footgun in of itself.
1482 2013-07-24 23:00:12 <nsh> make a low-level virtual machine for bitcoin logic
1483 2013-07-24 23:00:22 <petertodd> MC1984: define "control"
1484 2013-07-24 23:00:32 <sipa> you can still *fork* it, very easily
1485 2013-07-24 23:00:35 <sipa> and it's quite safe
1486 2013-07-24 23:00:43 <sipa> you just have to be careful with modifications
1487 2013-07-24 23:00:51 <sipa> not more or less so than we are
1488 2013-07-24 23:01:06 <sipa> (well... perhaps we're not careful enough even)
1489 2013-07-24 23:01:06 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1490 2013-07-24 23:01:27 <sipa> i don't think there is any privileged position here
1491 2013-07-24 23:01:28 <petertodd> sipa: Anyway, the stuff that is consensus critical tends to be relatively uninteresting to change...
1492 2013-07-24 23:01:28 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1493 2013-07-24 23:01:28 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1494 2013-07-24 23:01:47 <petertodd> sipa: Exceptions like UTXO database, but who wants to piss around with EvalScript() all that much really?
1495 2013-07-24 23:01:48 handle has joined
1496 2013-07-24 23:02:25 <sipa> the problem is that the consensus-critical stuff isn't nicely separated from the rest
1497 2013-07-24 23:02:58 <petertodd> and that's a problem mainly because it gives people excuses to reimplement everything
1498 2013-07-24 23:03:20 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it has jack shit to do with the current dev team, none of us are competent to do it either.
1499 2013-07-24 23:04:12 <MC1984> you dont think the apparent extreme dificulties with global consensus software changes the traditional OSS dynamic somewhat?
1500 2013-07-24 23:04:21 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1501 2013-07-24 23:04:26 <MC1984> this is basically brand new area of CS right
1502 2013-07-24 23:04:52 <petertodd> MC1984: Yes, but remember what I said about how what's actually consensus critical is small.
1503 2013-07-24 23:04:56 <sipa> i'd say it's mostly a brand new area of software development
1504 2013-07-24 23:05:02 <MC1984> im not trying to make an argument that "you guys" are lords and masters or anything. No one wants you to be less than yourselves
1505 2013-07-24 23:05:09 <sipa> critically-correct software and many stuff around isn't new
1506 2013-07-24 23:05:12 <gmaxwell> These are mostly engineering problems, not science ones.
1507 2013-07-24 23:05:13 hnz has joined
1508 2013-07-24 23:05:35 <MC1984> yes engineering
1509 2013-07-24 23:06:09 <gmaxwell> I am not aware of any other moderately large correctness critical decenteralized systems.  The reason: it's really bad engineering to create one when you can avoid it.
1510 2013-07-24 23:06:28 dooglus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1511 2013-07-24 23:06:29 PRab_ has joined
1512 2013-07-24 23:06:31 <MC1984> taken
1513 2013-07-24 23:06:32 <MC1984> but t
1514 2013-07-24 23:06:34 <gmaxwell> E.g. you can draw parallels to interdomain internet routing, but all that is very loosely coupled for good reasons (and still has had some scarry failure events)
1515 2013-07-24 23:06:43 <MC1984> its the only way to do bitcoin as far as anyone knows
1516 2013-07-24 23:06:46 <MC1984> so here it is
1517 2013-07-24 23:07:00 <gmaxwell> The internet still works even if different routers get different routing tables, so long as they aren't different in particular bad ways.
1518 2013-07-24 23:07:53 <MC1984> well yes and BGP is eventually self healing i those circumstances afaik
1519 2013-07-24 23:08:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Also critical is how the internet routing layer is maintained by domain experts, or at least people with access to domain experts. We expect end-users to be able to run Bitcoin nodes with a high probability of success and without expertise in what to do if it all craps out.
1520 2013-07-24 23:08:08 <MC1984> bitcoin need a divine intervension to fix a chain split
1521 2013-07-24 23:08:27 <Luke-Jr> anyone familiar with OpenOCD?
1522 2013-07-24 23:09:01 PRab has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1523 2013-07-24 23:09:08 PRab_ is now known as PRab
1524 2013-07-24 23:09:16 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, it's not exposed to totally untrusted anonymous input either. (and to the extent that it is, this is considered problematic and there is work in progress to cryptographically sign route updates)
1525 2013-07-24 23:10:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: SIGHASH_SINGLE is an interesting case there, as coinbase was apparently affected, but because they do have domain experts, seems that they were able to fix the issue. (be interesting to know the full story)
1526 2013-07-24 23:11:51 <gmaxwell> petertodd: even easily fixed big internet @#$@#ups often take hours to fix.
1527 2013-07-24 23:12:09 <gmaxwell> Look at how long it took to fix when pakastan blackholed youtube globally.
1528 2013-07-24 23:12:15 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1529 2013-07-24 23:12:40 <petertodd> For sure, it actually kinda worried me how fast coinbase got apparently fixed...
1530 2013-07-24 23:13:24 <sipa> petertodd: is there a double OP_ELSE in testnet?
1531 2013-07-24 23:13:31 <petertodd> sipa: there is now
1532 2013-07-24 23:13:35 michagogo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1533 2013-07-24 23:13:45 <petertodd> sipa: I don't even think we have OP_IF at all on mainnet.
1534 2013-07-24 23:13:54 <sipa> h
1535 2013-07-24 23:13:56 <sipa> ha
1536 2013-07-24 23:14:03 dooglus has joined
1537 2013-07-24 23:14:48 DoctorBTC_ has joined
1538 2013-07-24 23:14:58 <petertodd> sipa: IIRC the only opcodes used on mainnet are OP_NOP, OP_NOP1, OP_HASH256 and OP_RETURN in addition to the obvious ones. (er, plus the P2SH garbage ones, whatever they were)
1539 2013-07-24 23:15:17 michagogo has joined
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1541 2013-07-24 23:18:18 RoboTedd_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1542 2013-07-24 23:18:29 ericmuyser has joined
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1544 2013-07-24 23:19:01 <turboroot> gmaxwell: could you take a look at these: https://i2.minus.com/irSjj8p0frNDG.png, https://i5.minus.com/ib0VOaFk4aueRj.png
1545 2013-07-24 23:19:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I was looking at adding a merklized abstract syntax tree opcode btw, surprisingly little code is needed.
1546 2013-07-24 23:19:43 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1547 2013-07-24 23:19:48 <turboroot> gmaxwell: i personally think it provides better presentation of available projects than mozilla's asknot.
1548 2013-07-24 23:20:28 <petertodd> turboroot: you gotta admit though, asknot clever way of engaging the user though
1549 2013-07-24 23:21:00 <gmaxwell> The idea in asknot is to funnel people directly and not trigger TLDR. I dunno if its actually better than doing it another way.
1550 2013-07-24 23:21:17 <turboroot> petertodd: i guess so
1551 2013-07-24 23:22:11 <petertodd> turboroot: how about you put the full list in an "about" thing off to the side and keep the asknot mechanism front and center?
1552 2013-07-24 23:22:25 <petertodd> turboroot: look at pageviews and see what people actually do
1553 2013-07-24 23:22:35 <turboroot> petertodd: that was my second thought
1554 2013-07-24 23:22:43 <turboroot> :)
1555 2013-07-24 23:24:58 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: Satoshi is the node codebase. Bitcoin-Qt (pending rename) is the client
1556 2013-07-24 23:25:54 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: also note that PoolserverJ and pushpool are defunct/dead projects
1557 2013-07-24 23:26:04 <Luke-Jr> and most people wouldn't be running a poolserver..
1558 2013-07-24 23:26:19 <turboroot> Luke-Jr: the former is dead?
1559 2013-07-24 23:26:34 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: yes, PSJ will not function on the Bitcoin network period for months now
1560 2013-07-24 23:26:56 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: there is no official client - or official anything. official = centralized
1561 2013-07-24 23:27:07 <turboroot> times move fast
1562 2013-07-24 23:27:41 <Graet> 18months since poolserverj developer lost interest
1563 2013-07-24 23:27:46 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: I'd suggest adding mining software, like BFGMiner and MPBM
1564 2013-07-24 23:28:12 <Luke-Jr> and merchant stuff, but I'm not familiar with that
1565 2013-07-24 23:28:22 <turboroot> ah, I was looking for 'original', not 'official'.
1566 2013-07-24 23:28:33 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: Bitcoin-Qt isn't original either - that was wxBitcoin
1567 2013-07-24 23:28:45 <Luke-Jr> which nobody cares about anymore
1568 2013-07-24 23:29:02 <sipa> at the time actually just called 'bitcoin'
1569 2013-07-24 23:29:43 <turboroot> ok then, the official site uses some of these terms, so I got confused; i'll fix them.
1570 2013-07-24 23:29:53 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin Wallet for Android is now the oldest end-user wallet O.o
1571 2013-07-24 23:30:16 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: you might mine https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Clients for info
1572 2013-07-24 23:30:26 <petertodd> turboroot: s/official/reference/ IMO
1573 2013-07-24 23:30:32 justusranvier_ has joined
1574 2013-07-24 23:30:33 <sipa> reference client sounds correct
1575 2013-07-24 23:30:57 <Luke-Jr> "Bitcoin-Qt is based on the reference "Satoshi" codebase, inherited from the original client" ?
1576 2013-07-24 23:31:35 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: reference as in what the majority of mining hashing power is using is really the way to talk about it
1577 2013-07-24 23:31:57 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: majority of mining isn't relevant here simply
1578 2013-07-24 23:32:05 <Luke-Jr> economic majority comes into play too
1579 2013-07-24 23:32:07 <gmaxwell> "Economic and mining majority"
1580 2013-07-24 23:32:22 <gmaxwell> and perhaps p2p majority, until we get some better transport diversity.
1581 2013-07-24 23:32:40 <sipa> p2p majority may well be bitcoin wallet for android :p
1582 2013-07-24 23:32:46 <Luke-Jr> "Bitcoin-Qt is based on the original "Satoshi" codebase, which is currently the reference node implementation" ?
1583 2013-07-24 23:32:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: short-term, majority of mining hashing power is relevant for what code you should be working on :)
1584 2013-07-24 23:32:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: not really p2p there.... :P
1585 2013-07-24 23:33:13 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: miners should not be using a single node implementation anyway
1586 2013-07-24 23:33:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: needs fraud proofs :)
1587 2013-07-24 23:33:34 <gmaxwell> indeed.
1588 2013-07-24 23:33:47 <petertodd> sipa: needs an order of magnitude more consensus critical code you mean :)
1589 2013-07-24 23:33:57 <gmaxwell> indeed :(
1590 2013-07-24 23:34:07 <gmaxwell> it's not necessarily THAT bad.
1591 2013-07-24 23:34:08 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: they should be using a single node implementation to validate blocks, how they create blocks is up to them
1592 2013-07-24 23:34:27 <turboroot> petertodd: were you referring to my usage of 'official site' to be misleading too?
1593 2013-07-24 23:34:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if you make your normal consensus criticial code always deal in terms of fraud proofs.
1594 2013-07-24 23:34:43 <petertodd> turboroot: yeah, we're all allergic to the term 'official'
1595 2013-07-24 23:34:44 nimdAHK has joined
1596 2013-07-24 23:34:49 <sipa> petertodd: what i mean is that SPV nodes really just connect to the "tier-1" network, so they aren't peers to eachother ever
1597 2013-07-24 23:34:53 <petertodd> turboroot: At the conference Gavin refused to sit at the end of any table. :)
1598 2013-07-24 23:35:13 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. you split the block you're going to validate into N fraud proofs. and then only validate x% of them.  your additional code is just some code to broadcast failures.
1599 2013-07-24 23:35:17 <sipa> petertodd: with fraud proofs, there would be reason for SPV nodes to connect to eachother
1600 2013-07-24 23:35:22 <petertodd> sipa: no harm in peering to each other re: block headers
1601 2013-07-24 23:35:42 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1602 2013-07-24 23:35:42 <petertodd> sipa: just have a tier-1 *trusted* network sign block headers
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1604 2013-07-24 23:36:08 <CodeShark> that's actually a good idea
1605 2013-07-24 23:36:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: problem is without institutionalizing fraud you don't test the "there actually is fraud here!" cases enough
1606 2013-07-24 23:36:14 gst has joined
1607 2013-07-24 23:36:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so I think the additional consensus criticial code for fraud proofs can be reduced to only a couple branches, and they're actually testable with a blocktester kind of tes.t
1608 2013-07-24 23:36:21 <turboroot> petertodd: lol
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1610 2013-07-24 23:36:48 <petertodd> CodeShark: keep in mind, by "sign" that can just mean you have an SSL connection to someone you trust
1611 2013-07-24 23:37:04 <petertodd> CodeShark: probably better actually so we don't institutionalize that...
1612 2013-07-24 23:37:04 <CodeShark> petertodd: yes, I was leaving the signing mechanism open-ended
1613 2013-07-24 23:37:07 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it's a very risky idea, depending on implementation.
1614 2013-07-24 23:37:27 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: if it's just a drop in someone you trust like the freenet darknet then thats good, agreed.
1615 2013-07-24 23:37:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, best if transferring the signatures between peers is hard
1616 2013-07-24 23:37:50 <gmaxwell> if its some key in a client, thats another matter.
1617 2013-07-24 23:38:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, like how there's no nice way right now for me to say "connect to ssl://bitcoin.petertodd.org" on my android phone
1618 2013-07-24 23:38:45 <sipa> but you can say "connect to bitcoin.petertodd.org"
1619 2013-07-24 23:38:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It's still the case though that any bug in that code is something that can be revealed after the fact, very ugly.
1620 2013-07-24 23:38:56 <petertodd> sipa: MITM
1621 2013-07-24 23:38:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: every freenet node display a little base64 (IIRC?) token which you can copy and paste into any other node to setup a peering.
1622 2013-07-24 23:39:00 <sipa> which, in the presense of wifi hotspots that intercept things, is worthless :)
1623 2013-07-24 23:39:11 <gmaxwell> petertodd: and it even handles things like your ip address changing.
1624 2013-07-24 23:39:41 <gmaxwell> (nodes will broadcast encrypted identifiers, and if you can't reach a peer you check the network for an updated identifier)
1625 2013-07-24 23:39:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yes! I remember that, it's a very good solution
1626 2013-07-24 23:40:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: easy for us to do too: ssl://bitcoinaddress@ipaddress
1627 2013-07-24 23:40:50 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1628 2013-07-24 23:41:17 <gmaxwell> means exposing SSL to the internet.. lots of extra attack surface. :(
1629 2013-07-24 23:41:22 <sipa> needs host keys
1630 2013-07-24 23:41:28 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1631 2013-07-24 23:41:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ? just use a standard SSL library and add SSL to the p2p protocol
1632 2013-07-24 23:41:48 justusranvier_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1633 2013-07-24 23:42:04 sacredchao has joined
1634 2013-07-24 23:42:10 <petertodd> sipa: host keys just need to be scriptPubKeys you know...
1635 2013-07-24 23:42:11 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, it's perfectly possible to build exploitable code while using a standard SSL library.
1636 2013-07-24 23:42:26 <gmaxwell> Less so in our context though, the easiest things to get wrong are the domain authentication.
1637 2013-07-24 23:42:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ok, so the question really is what is the least risk, best audited, way of adding SSL to a stream protocol?
1638 2013-07-24 23:42:58 <gmaxwell> stunnel. :P
1639 2013-07-24 23:43:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: heh, I mean, I'm assuming there's a set of agreed upon parameters that OpenSSL supports and are considered safe, so constrain the negotiation to exactly that
1640 2013-07-24 23:43:34 * petertodd has never added SSL to anything
1641 2013-07-24 23:44:09 <sipa> i'd rather just have bitcoin-key authentication built into the p2p protocol
1642 2013-07-24 23:44:13 <gmaxwell> in any case, if you only want auth and not encrpytion it is _dead easy_ to add to p2p.
1643 2013-07-24 23:44:23 <sipa> associate a key with CAddress
1644 2013-07-24 23:44:39 <petertodd> sipa: worth it to not make multisig impossible IMO
1645 2013-07-24 23:44:50 <gmaxwell> because we already use a cryptographic 'checksum' replace it with a mac and ECDH the mac key as part of the initial handshake and none of the rest of the code changes.
1646 2013-07-24 23:44:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's promising, I think encryption should be done first
1647 2013-07-24 23:45:09 <CodeShark> more important than trusting the peer to whom you're connected is trusting the entity that signed the validation
1648 2013-07-24 23:45:40 <CodeShark> or not peer, but server
1649 2013-07-24 23:45:48 <sipa> petertodd: use case?
1650 2013-07-24 23:45:51 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: a problem with all that is that at the human level trust is expensive and so it tends to produce strong clustering (centeralization)
1651 2013-07-24 23:46:08 <petertodd> CodeShark: that gets to the hugely complex notion of identity - right now low-hanging fruit would be to just make sure the p2p layer isn't sniffable by a large passive attacker (NSA)
1652 2013-07-24 23:46:24 <petertodd> sipa: when this stuff really matters and people are selling node access services with fraud proofing
1653 2013-07-24 23:46:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the timing is still really revealing, for that threat model I think you want an alternative transport.
1654 2013-07-24 23:46:40 Eiii has joined
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1656 2013-07-24 23:46:40 Eiii has joined
1657 2013-07-24 23:46:44 <petertodd> sipa: also makes it easy to reason "prove you can spend funds to this key"
1658 2013-07-24 23:47:03 <sipa> petertodd: eww
1659 2013-07-24 23:47:13 <sipa> petertodd: i'd key wallet keys and host keys strictly separate
1660 2013-07-24 23:47:27 <sipa> privacy implications, ...
1661 2013-07-24 23:47:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: meh, timing is a lot less revealing than what we have, and with prioritization and non-tx traffic timing will be a lot less interesting
1662 2013-07-24 23:47:50 kyledrake has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1663 2013-07-24 23:48:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: we *need* to solve this in the general case so most of the information isn't out there - alt transports are an add-on
1664 2013-07-24 23:48:17 <gmaxwell> petertodd: there is no point to encrypting 99.9% of our traffic, it's highly public. The little bit that is worth encrypting is highly vulnerable to timing analysis.
1665 2013-07-24 23:48:41 <gmaxwell> if you encrypt you just move the problem to people running lots of sybil nodes to get the same data.
1666 2013-07-24 23:48:53 <petertodd> sipa: normally the key is just a key, point is from the *users* point of view when they are manually dealing with this stuff, a address=key is something I think people already understand
1667 2013-07-24 23:48:58 <gmaxwell> and you create export restriction problems for commercial products.
1668 2013-07-24 23:49:05 <petertodd> sipa: anyway, the multisig thing is useful in the future
1669 2013-07-24 23:49:15 <sipa> petertodd: that's pretty much the worst misunderstanding that i want to get rid of
1670 2013-07-24 23:49:23 <sipa> petertodd: an address is not a key
1671 2013-07-24 23:49:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: having people run lots of sybil nodes is a big improvement over the current situation because we can detect that, especially as we add anti-sybil in the future
1672 2013-07-24 23:49:54 <gmaxwell> petertodd: we can? what percentage of the TOR nodes are collection points?
1673 2013-07-24 23:49:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: again, I really disagree with you on the notion that our data is public, only the end result is
1674 2013-07-24 23:50:30 yubrew has joined
1675 2013-07-24 23:50:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: My point there is there is *no* way to detect a passive observer.
1676 2013-07-24 23:50:42 <gmaxwell> petertodd: newly broadcasted txn are not public, sure, but all you need to trace them is timing and topology unless usage is very very sparse.
1677 2013-07-24 23:51:07 <CodeShark> petertodd: there's no way until we get quantum crypto :)
1678 2013-07-24 23:51:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Without encryption, there is no motivation to add anythign for timing attacks...
1679 2013-07-24 23:51:37 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you can imagine the sybil attack pattern as a composition of an active honest participant PLUS a cooperating undetectable passive observer.
1680 2013-07-24 23:51:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Remember jgarzik and I are talking about P2P messaging using the bitcoin protocol, which will give additional data.
1681 2013-07-24 23:51:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, and that's already a big improvement! Look, encryption is cheap
1682 2013-07-24 23:52:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Anyway, no sense wasting time disussing this without a pull-req
1683 2013-07-24 23:52:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Point is, if someone had a pull-req that did it, would you be *against* including it?
1684 2013-07-24 23:52:26 <gmaxwell> hellauah.
1685 2013-07-24 23:53:26 <petertodd> ?
1686 2013-07-24 23:53:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: If it were good overall, I think no... deference to people doing the work.  Though I'd shed paint things like addr=key and such.
1687 2013-07-24 23:53:47 <gmaxwell> hellauah. was a resonse to  "wasting time disussing this without..."
1688 2013-07-24 23:54:20 <petertodd> Good, anyway, jdillon and co said they were interested in doing that, so there's money to be made.
1689 2013-07-24 23:55:47 <petertodd> Given we already depend on OpenSSL, do you think it's reasonable to add dependency on the SSL encryption stuff? (without CA auth or anything)
1690 2013-07-24 23:56:25 <petertodd> I'm very inclined to do it in a very standard way so alt-clients can re-implement it easily.
1691 2013-07-24 23:56:58 <gmaxwell> petertodd: we have one for ssl rpc and for the payment stuff.
1692 2013-07-24 23:57:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh of course, I can copy that stuff
1693 2013-07-24 23:57:55 <petertodd> SSL service bit, thoughts?
1694 2013-07-24 23:57:59 Application has joined
1695 2013-07-24 23:58:17 <CodeShark> I'm a little torn between building in support vs. using some sort of proxying service
1696 2013-07-24 23:58:43 <petertodd> CodeShark: as I said, we want this to be an automatic thing. Same reason Freenet, as an example, encrypts node-to-node.
1697 2013-07-24 23:58:47 <CodeShark> I guess since we already have the ssl dependency it isn't a big deal to build it in
1698 2013-07-24 23:59:04 <petertodd> CodeShark: Authentication and timing analysis and all that other stuff can come later.
1699 2013-07-24 23:59:14 <gmaxwell> yea, if its there it really should be oppturnistic: always on if it can be, authenticated if it can be.
1700 2013-07-24 23:59:23 realazthat is now known as pinkee
1701 2013-07-24 23:59:41 <gmaxwell> (for one, an observer shouldn't be able to tell if any random pair of nodes is authenticated or not)
1702 2013-07-24 23:59:50 <petertodd> Sounds good, I'll tell jdillon all that.