1 2013-07-25 00:00:08 <petertodd> He was hoping for a $1000-$2000 job basically.
2 2013-07-25 00:00:28 <petertodd> *for it to be a
3 2013-07-25 00:00:57 * sipa wonders if we'll ever see jdillon on IRC
4 2013-07-25 00:01:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: on thing you might want to do with the SSL is to swap roles so that the initiating party takes on the server role for the TLS stuff.
5 2013-07-25 00:01:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: IIRC the server side in TLS is the more computationally expensive side.
6 2013-07-25 00:01:41 <petertodd> sipa: He's told me he has a lot of commitments, but I'll tell him that. He pretty much only posts on weekends I've noticed.
7 2013-07-25 00:02:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ahh, I wouldn't have thought of that.
8 2013-07-25 00:02:18 <CodeShark> the computationally expensive stuff comes from public key generation?
9 2013-07-25 00:02:45 <CodeShark> I've used SSL only at a very high level
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11 2013-07-25 00:02:56 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no, the way the handshakes goes one side signs and the other verifies, since we don't actually care about the actual SSL keys I think we can reverse the roles.
12 2013-07-25 00:03:13 <gmaxwell> (the RSA signing and verifying is highly asymetric computationally)
13 2013-07-25 00:03:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: reminds me, this should use ECDSA PFS, silly not too
14 2013-07-25 00:03:32 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: it's also highly asymmetric for ECDSA
15 2013-07-25 00:03:37 <gmaxwell> petertodd: and we'll be back to bitcoin not being easy to build on fedora again. :(
16 2013-07-25 00:03:38 <CodeShark> as signing can use precomputed tables
17 2013-07-25 00:03:43 <CodeShark> entirely
18 2013-07-25 00:04:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ok, RSA PFS - connections are long-lasting anyway
19 2013-07-25 00:05:03 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, but it's 40:1 asymetric for RSA.
20 2013-07-25 00:05:35 midnightmagic has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
21 2013-07-25 00:05:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: if the roles are reversed, can both sides auth each other still?
22 2013-07-25 00:05:53 upb has quit (Changing host)
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24 2013-07-25 00:05:59 <upb> yes
25 2013-07-25 00:06:14 <gmaxwell> Well technically the thing that you'd be reversing is encrypt/decrypt. And yes, it doesn't matter.
26 2013-07-25 00:06:32 <petertodd> Sounds good
27 2013-07-25 00:07:05 <gmaxwell> IIRC. it's not like I've spent a ton of time thinking about it.
28 2013-07-25 00:07:07 midnightmagic has joined
29 2013-07-25 00:07:29 <petertodd> That'd probably make the ssl://bitcoin.petertodd.org case, with CA cert support, not work, I'll have to think about it too.
30 2013-07-25 00:07:52 <gmaxwell> I just recall that as one of the less fortunate design decisions in SSL... putting more computation on the server there.
31 2013-07-25 00:08:05 <gmaxwell> It's actually a lot of extra code to get the domain validation right, because openssl doesn't do it for you.
32 2013-07-25 00:08:16 <gmaxwell> and the rules are spread across several RFCs.
33 2013-07-25 00:08:17 <petertodd> It doesn't? That sucks
34 2013-07-25 00:08:33 <CodeShark> you could use two connections
35 2013-07-25 00:08:36 <gmaxwell> Some of which are ambigious.
36 2013-07-25 00:08:41 <petertodd> CodeShark: ?
37 2013-07-25 00:08:45 <CodeShark> the first connection to request the second
38 2013-07-25 00:08:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: and other are contradictory? :p
39 2013-07-25 00:09:09 <petertodd> sipa: The NSAKEY part being the most contradictory of them all.
40 2013-07-25 00:09:11 <CodeShark> node A connects to B, says "please connect back to me"
41 2013-07-25 00:09:26 <CodeShark> that connection is closed, a new one is opened
42 2013-07-25 00:09:28 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
43 2013-07-25 00:09:29 <petertodd> CodeShark: oh, well if you're going to do that, you don't actually need two streams...
44 2013-07-25 00:09:37 <petertodd> CodeShark: unless your library is constrainted
45 2013-07-25 00:09:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, maybe.. there are a bunch of rules that special case fully qualified names vs relative ones. But there is actually no way to tell if the name you have is fully qualified.
46 2013-07-25 00:09:48 <CodeShark> petertodd: right, it probably should be implemented at the library level
47 2013-07-25 00:10:04 <CodeShark> petertodd: but I can't imagine it's a very common thing to do
48 2013-07-25 00:10:09 <petertodd> CodeShark: anyway, if CA handling isn't in a library and easy, it's not worth doing
49 2013-07-25 00:10:14 <gmaxwell> because, you know, tomorrow there might be a "www.nike"
50 2013-07-25 00:10:22 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the CA stuff mostly is, the domain validation is not.
51 2013-07-25 00:10:27 <gmaxwell> Which is daft but there you go.
52 2013-07-25 00:10:38 <sipa> petertodd: just added a getblockheader to my headersfirst branch, which returns base64 headers
53 2013-07-25 00:10:44 <gmaxwell> oh and this code is, of course, all hard to test.
54 2013-07-25 00:10:50 dust-otc has joined
55 2013-07-25 00:11:04 <sipa> petertodd: an submitblockheader would be useful, to integrate with twitter/blockheaders :D
56 2013-07-25 00:11:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, I think I'll stick to per-node keys...
57 2013-07-25 00:11:09 <petertodd> sipa: nice!
58 2013-07-25 00:11:19 <petertodd> sipa: sadly twitter seems to have blocked me :(
59 2013-07-25 00:11:26 <sipa> how so?
60 2013-07-25 00:11:30 <sipa> oh
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63 2013-07-25 00:11:32 <sipa> it's old
64 2013-07-25 00:11:36 <gmaxwell> petertodd: and you didn't take an oppturnity to announce "Twitter blocking bitcoin!"
65 2013-07-25 00:11:45 <petertodd> sipa: my auth credentials don't work any more, at least the API-level ones
66 2013-07-25 00:12:02 <petertodd> sipa: haven't gotten around to getting new ones
67 2013-07-25 00:12:16 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
68 2013-07-25 00:12:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I did, on twitter...
69 2013-07-25 00:12:33 <sipa> "But I couldn't post, as I was blocked."
70 2013-07-25 00:13:15 <petertodd> sipa: "So I stuffed it into a OP_CHECKMULTISIG..."
71 2013-07-25 00:14:06 <gmaxwell> petertodd: should switch to using the tor directory servers to broadcast headers. :P
72 2013-07-25 00:14:33 <sipa> how about DNS?
73 2013-07-25 00:14:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: why not freenet? given I'm about to tell them about fidelity bonds...
74 2013-07-25 00:14:41 <petertodd> sipa: already implemented that
75 2013-07-25 00:14:51 Luke-Jr has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
76 2013-07-25 00:15:03 <sipa> right, i vaguely felt this wasn't an original idea
77 2013-07-25 00:15:11 <gmaxwell> petertodd: there was some people claiming to be working on blockchain in freenet eons ago but I think they just talked.
78 2013-07-25 00:15:21 Luke-Jr has joined
79 2013-07-25 00:15:23 <gmaxwell> petertodd: and yea, speaking of that? wheres your email?
80 2013-07-25 00:15:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I remember that, they had a shitty diagram...
81 2013-07-25 00:15:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: in ~/drafts ...
82 2013-07-25 00:16:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: should be pretty easy to do blocks in freenet. esp with our current APIs.. was much harder two years ago.
83 2013-07-25 00:16:19 <gmaxwell> but running freenet means .. installing java... :(
84 2013-07-25 00:16:35 Squidicuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
85 2013-07-25 00:16:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Wait, this is actually an *excellent* response to the weekly DHT crap...
86 2013-07-25 00:17:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sure, and it's probably only a 100 like hack on the half node to implement a proxy to freenet.
87 2013-07-25 00:17:33 <gmaxwell> s/like/line/
88 2013-07-25 00:17:56 <petertodd> Alright, that should be our official answere from now on.
89 2013-07-25 00:18:18 <petertodd> I really want someone to implement this, just to show all the flaws...
90 2013-07-25 00:18:20 <gmaxwell> it's a better answer when its implemented.
91 2013-07-25 00:18:56 <gmaxwell> it'll be funny when you point out that a sync from freenet will take six months. (well, maybe actually usable w/ prefeching / headers first)
92 2013-07-25 00:19:14 <sipa> why?
93 2013-07-25 00:19:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's what partial UTXO mode is for :P
94 2013-07-25 00:19:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: a typical fetch in freenet of a mildly popular object has a latency on the order of 30 seconds.
95 2013-07-25 00:19:59 <gmaxwell> very popular objects are faster..
96 2013-07-25 00:20:04 <gmaxwell> unpopular ones can take minutes or hours.
97 2013-07-25 00:20:05 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
98 2013-07-25 00:20:17 <sipa> ha
99 2013-07-25 00:20:33 <gmaxwell> so if you fetch serially ..
100 2013-07-25 00:20:39 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
101 2013-07-25 00:23:05 <gmaxwell> hm!
102 2013-07-25 00:23:37 <gmaxwell> so you know how freenet clusters by object hash?
103 2013-07-25 00:23:41 <gmaxwell> they use sha256.
104 2013-07-25 00:24:08 <gmaxwell> so I think inserting bitcoin headers directly .. is actually an attack on freenet!
105 2013-07-25 00:24:19 <gmaxwell> because we'd unbalance their keyspace.
106 2013-07-25 00:24:34 <sipa> you'd need to submit singly-hashed headers :)
107 2013-07-25 00:24:45 <gmaxwell> Correct, with no extra data.
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118 2013-07-25 00:32:15 <gmaxwell> petertodd: too bad you weren't bouncing around collecting bounties back then: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7181.0
119 2013-07-25 00:32:43 <gmaxwell> freenet apparently pads and encrypts stuff before building the CHK ids... so thankfully the headers aren't an attack vector. :P
120 2013-07-25 00:32:58 sacredchao has joined
121 2013-07-25 00:33:43 <petertodd> ha, dammit, I was around too, would have been waiting for my final exam results right then...
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123 2013-07-25 00:35:05 <gmaxwell> though a bitcoin fpga farm could be used as a pretty agressive attack on freenet.
124 2013-07-25 00:35:32 <petertodd> does freenet really depend on well-distributed keys though?
125 2013-07-25 00:36:52 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. by flooding near a particular key you can push objects out of the network.
126 2013-07-25 00:36:59 <sipa> :O
127 2013-07-25 00:37:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: thinking at some point the network probably could adapt, dunno if it actually does
128 2013-07-25 00:38:14 <gmaxwell> cause you know it's a hash table and nodes specialize. So you add a bunch of data near another object...
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130 2013-07-25 00:40:40 <petertodd> Thing is, how much does it act like a hash table? I'd *hope* you could have the algorithm make nodes adapt reasonably well - nodes after all don't serve just one part of the hash table.
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137 2013-07-25 00:52:58 <gmaxwell> petertodd: IIRC, it's been a while, but nodes can adjust their width, but there is a mutual independance assumption, so if the keys are too imbalanced some part of the hash space might not be covered by any node.
138 2013-07-25 00:53:32 <gmaxwell> probably not the most interesting attack in any case.
139 2013-07-25 00:53:35 wamatt has joined
140 2013-07-25 00:54:08 <petertodd> It's not like freenet is reliable enough for you to tell the difference...
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155 2013-07-25 01:23:11 <gmaxwell> http://www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/donate.php
156 2013-07-25 01:23:21 <gmaxwell> ^ OTR is taking bitcoin donations, very cool.
157 2013-07-25 01:23:29 <petertodd> nice!
158 2013-07-25 01:24:42 <petertodd> ha, 0.29BTC already
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167 2013-07-25 01:42:04 <maaku> is otr still being worked on?
168 2013-07-25 01:43:58 <midnightmagic> maaku: Isn't it? I saw Jacob Applebaum doing something on the otr lists a short while ago when cryptocat tried to do group negotiation and OTR people were doing.. what was it called again.. MP.
169 2013-07-25 01:46:09 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Looks like your comment literally in the last 20 minutes just brought in a crapload more donations.
170 2013-07-25 01:46:18 <midnightmagic> well "crapload" for donations anyway.
171 2013-07-25 01:47:12 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
172 2013-07-25 01:47:16 <gmaxwell> maaku: yes.
173 2013-07-25 01:47:46 <gmaxwell> maaku: the v3 protocol was released not too many months back, and people have been working on MP-OTR and file transfer stuff more recently.
174 2013-07-25 01:47:55 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I also wrote this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262066.msg2798497#msg2798497
175 2013-07-25 01:48:39 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: :-)
176 2013-07-25 01:48:54 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
177 2013-07-25 01:49:11 <MC1984> treacherous commercial chat networks
178 2013-07-25 01:49:13 <MC1984> haha
179 2013-07-25 01:51:52 strainwrld has joined
180 2013-07-25 01:55:08 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
181 2013-07-25 01:55:44 ericmuyser has joined
182 2013-07-25 01:55:47 <midnightmagic> lol "no dorky key signing parties required." making fun of the entire world of PKI.
183 2013-07-25 01:57:47 <gmaxwell> Priorities straight, had to write up that sales pitch before actually getting around to donating myself. :P
184 2013-07-25 01:58:06 <MC1984> otr is a plugin right
185 2013-07-25 01:58:17 <MC1984> maybe it can plug in to the new tox netowrk thing
186 2013-07-25 01:58:32 grau has joined
187 2013-07-25 01:59:02 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, it's a protocol with plugins for various chat clients
188 2013-07-25 01:59:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, they redo the DH key on every message right?
189 2013-07-25 01:59:39 <MC1984> ill have a look, i assumed it was anothr tool for level 40+ neckbeards
190 2013-07-25 01:59:46 <MC1984> like PGP/GPG
191 2013-07-25 02:00:03 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yes, in a lazy way.
192 2013-07-25 02:00:23 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, it's fairly easy to use, they "solved" the key authentication in a way that is still pretty secure but normal people can actually do
193 2013-07-25 02:00:24 <gmaxwell> E.g. every message you send basically does the next step in advancing another DH session.
194 2013-07-25 02:01:09 ahmedbodi has joined
195 2013-07-25 02:01:22 <midnightmagic> 40+ neckbeards? as opposed to lazy hipsters' kids too lazy to do a key exchange
196 2013-07-25 02:01:44 <MC1984> indeed
197 2013-07-25 02:01:46 justusranvier_ has joined
198 2013-07-25 02:01:52 <gmaxwell> The key shared secret thing they do is really brillant. It seems so simple: You type in a question for the other party that only they could answer, they answer it. Done. But the complex math behind the scenes using a statistical zero knoweldge proof that makes it impossible for an observer or a evil counter party to bruteforce the secret.
199 2013-07-25 02:01:58 <midnightmagic> "can't, busy putting my dojo in a django php box, woops, there's another php exploit"
200 2013-07-25 02:02:14 <midnightmagic> "can you help me reinstall php, mr. neckbeard"
201 2013-07-25 02:02:19 <midnightmagic> "sir"
202 2013-07-25 02:03:00 <MC1984> it sounds like the vulnerable part of that is having something about you that only a specific friend could answer
203 2013-07-25 02:03:08 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
204 2013-07-25 02:03:11 <MC1984> its usually all on facebook now
205 2013-07-25 02:03:41 <petertodd> MC1984: when I was 5, what did I do at wasaga beach that was horribly embarassing and I'm still ashamed to talk about?
206 2013-07-25 02:03:48 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
207 2013-07-25 02:04:09 <MC1984> shit in the sea?
208 2013-07-25 02:04:31 <petertodd> MC1984: Main thing OTR does right, is it means that *both* "private thing we both know" and "shares secret we've geeked out on" work the same way, with the same security.
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210 2013-07-25 02:05:17 <MC1984> sounds like theyve abstracted away the scary bit
211 2013-07-25 02:05:22 <MC1984> good
212 2013-07-25 02:05:27 <petertodd> Yup
213 2013-07-25 02:06:28 <petertodd> The other thing like it that comes to mind is ZRTP's scheme for verifying the other side: both read a string on the phone. Depends on the hardness of the "real-time adaptive voice replacement" problem, and that's a hard one.
214 2013-07-25 02:06:32 <MC1984> hm anyone tell the OTR guys why its bad to serve bitcoin adresses over insecure http
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217 2013-07-25 02:07:00 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you should. :P
218 2013-07-25 02:07:29 <MC1984> im just some punk
219 2013-07-25 02:07:30 <midnightmagic> yeah get on it. tell them to do an inline gpg sig using an otr key
220 2013-07-25 02:07:41 <midnightmagic> yeah but they're crypto nerds, so they already get it.
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222 2013-07-25 02:08:14 <petertodd> https can be annoying to setup, but at least do a PGP-signed statement like I did at the bottom of http://keepbitcoinfree.org/
223 2013-07-25 02:08:31 <MC1984> yah a gpg signed message should do it, if they cant aford ssl or somthing
224 2013-07-25 02:08:40 <MC1984> except >implying anyone ever verifies them
225 2013-07-25 02:08:40 <midnightmagic> ssl is lame.
226 2013-07-25 02:08:46 <petertodd> (heh, and I went to those lengths even when the next paragraph is to say I don't really want donations)
227 2013-07-25 02:09:40 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, https is pretty easy to setup if you already have the certificate
228 2013-07-25 02:09:48 <phantomcircuit> getting the cert can be quite annoying
229 2013-07-25 02:09:53 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: and if you control the server
230 2013-07-25 02:10:06 <phantomcircuit> if you dont control the server then dont bother
231 2013-07-25 02:10:06 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: for keepbitcoinfree it's a dead simple github thing, so that's not an option
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233 2013-07-25 02:11:46 <MC1984> bitcoin addresses are not fixed length right
234 2013-07-25 02:11:50 <petertodd> correct
235 2013-07-25 02:12:19 <MC1984> what range is the length and could a regex filter be made to pick them up every time
236 2013-07-25 02:12:53 <MC1984> ie automated MITM string replacement for btc addresses
237 2013-07-25 02:13:24 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, mitm string replacement doesn't need to be 100% certain it's a bitcoin address
238 2013-07-25 02:13:28 <petertodd> MC1984: might be cheaper to just split into words and test checksum on each one
239 2013-07-25 02:13:34 <phantomcircuit> so just replace anything that looks like a bitcoin address
240 2013-07-25 02:13:34 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: BTC addresses have checksums
241 2013-07-25 02:13:41 <MC1984> ok
242 2013-07-25 02:13:47 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, that's way more expensive than a compiled regex
243 2013-07-25 02:14:23 * petertodd needs to learn more about regex
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245 2013-07-25 02:15:09 <petertodd> MC1984: I think the answer is 34 characters
246 2013-07-25 02:15:35 <petertodd> MC1984: wiki says 25-34, meh, match 20-40 and call it a day, don't forget to match p2sh
247 2013-07-25 02:15:54 <MC1984> yes so its trivial
248 2013-07-25 02:15:57 <petertodd> A really fun one would be to MITM paytopubkeyhash and repalce them with the equivalent p2sh addresses
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253 2013-07-25 02:19:27 <MC1984> welp, email sent
254 2013-07-25 02:19:49 Application has joined
255 2013-07-25 02:20:53 <MC1984> i feel like i just patronised some very smart people lol
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260 2013-07-25 02:30:37 <amiller> i think if you know a person, it should only take a short amount of voice interaction to identify them
261 2013-07-25 02:31:17 <amiller> low latency, lots of subtle information in terms of timing and inflection and such
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264 2013-07-25 02:32:08 <stevedekorte> Intel adding support for SHA256 instructions http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-sha-extensions
265 2013-07-25 02:32:09 <stevedekorte> (sorry if his was already posted)
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277 2013-07-25 03:11:35 <MC1984> oh thats interesting
278 2013-07-25 03:13:02 <MC1984> not a patch on our asics though ill bet
279 2013-07-25 03:13:29 <stevedekorte> not a "patch"?
280 2013-07-25 03:13:48 <MC1984> why the fuck did they do hardware sha1 :/
281 2013-07-25 03:14:05 justusranvier_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
282 2013-07-25 03:14:25 justusranvier_ has joined
283 2013-07-25 03:15:42 <MC1984> so weve had hardware AES for a while and now hardware SHA
284 2013-07-25 03:16:12 <Krellan> Wow, there's an instruction to do *2 rounds* of SHA256, with a single instruction.
285 2013-07-25 03:16:32 <petertodd> Krellan: parallel or serial rounds?...
286 2013-07-25 03:16:34 <Krellan> CPU mining about to make a comeback?
287 2013-07-25 03:16:36 <MC1984> wouldnt it be a shame if they had a specific flaw that only intel knows about, that makes the processing insecure
288 2013-07-25 03:17:25 <jgarzik> stevedekorte, very cool
289 2013-07-25 03:17:32 <jgarzik> krellan: ha, hardly
290 2013-07-25 03:17:34 <Krellan> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-sha-extensions Not sure entirely. Hope it's Bitcoin-compatible. Interestingly they don't mention Bitcoin at all in the paper. As if hardware SHA256 would have another use?
291 2013-07-25 03:17:57 <petertodd> Krellan: a use like... hashing data?
292 2013-07-25 03:18:12 <petertodd> Krellan: Lots of stuff uses SHA256, often on huge amounts of data.
293 2013-07-25 03:18:16 <gmaxwell> Krellan: uh, it's used in many of the same places hardware AES is.
294 2013-07-25 03:19:07 <Krellan> makes sense, but traditional (non-mining) SHA256 is already so fast it's nearly I/O bound
295 2013-07-25 03:19:14 <Krellan> doesn't really need a dedicated CPU instruction
296 2013-07-25 03:19:35 <Krellan> might as well use BTC for the assembler mnemonic, that would be amusing
297 2013-07-25 03:19:55 <gmaxwell> Krellan: thats also true for AES, and yet.
298 2013-07-25 03:20:20 <gmaxwell> Hardware sha256 and AES is also found on some arm SOCs and on via's x86 chips too.
299 2013-07-25 03:20:23 <MC1984> like i said, what if theres another reason for these hardware implementations
300 2013-07-25 03:21:19 <jchp> does rdrand give you the heebie jeebies as well?
301 2013-07-25 03:21:23 <MC1984> theres no way to verify a hardware AES block isnt flawed is there
302 2013-07-25 03:21:29 strainwrld has quit (Quit: Leaving)
303 2013-07-25 03:21:41 <MC1984> whats rdrand
304 2013-07-25 03:21:45 andyh2 has joined
305 2013-07-25 03:21:55 <jchp> get ready to get your jimmies rustled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RdRand
306 2013-07-25 03:21:59 <petertodd> MC1984: AES is deterministic, usefully putting in a flaw isn't easy
307 2013-07-25 03:23:22 <MC1984> oh my fucking jimmies
308 2013-07-25 03:23:28 kyledrake has joined
309 2013-07-25 03:23:32 <MC1984> fuck that, let me spaz the mouse instead
310 2013-07-25 03:24:06 <MC1984> do people seriously think they are not or do not try to b inside our hardware
311 2013-07-25 03:24:30 <jchp> an RNG that's pretty much impossible to audit? sounds 100% legit guys nothing to see here
312 2013-07-25 03:24:45 <Krellan> it would really be disappointing if Intel added hardware SHA256 and didn't double it in the same way that Bitcoin does
313 2013-07-25 03:24:54 <Krellan> making it ineffective for mining
314 2013-07-25 03:25:05 <Krellan> then AMD could copy Intel but add the missing instruction to do it Bitcoin-compatible
315 2013-07-25 03:25:08 <MC1984> i herd you can sometimes use output from the thermal diode as randomness
316 2013-07-25 03:25:11 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
317 2013-07-25 03:25:12 imton_ has joined
318 2013-07-25 03:25:15 <Krellan> and recover some sales since people aren't buying ATI GPU's anymore for mining :)
319 2013-07-25 03:25:19 <gmaxwell> Krellan: ... it wouldn't be possible for that to be the case.
320 2013-07-25 03:25:34 <petertodd> MC1984: you can always use output from the thermal diode... it just won't give you bits very quickly
321 2013-07-25 03:25:45 <petertodd> MC1984: randomness is additive
322 2013-07-25 03:25:47 <gmaxwell> in any case, the intel stuff is very straight forward, and the way the round function its setup you can even do the skip the last couple rounds optimization.
323 2013-07-25 03:26:02 <Krellan> as for randomness, is it still worth sampling from the sound card and using the lowest bits?
324 2013-07-25 03:26:13 eoss has joined
325 2013-07-25 03:26:14 <MC1984> petertodd i thought the analouge noise from those things would be sufficient
326 2013-07-25 03:26:22 <MC1984> depends on how its sampled i suppose
327 2013-07-25 03:26:39 <Krellan> or using the "camera in a can" trick (webcam in sealed black container, brightness/contrast/gain turn up all the way, essentially random noise appears on screen)
328 2013-07-25 03:27:03 <MC1984> thats the same as the thermal diode thing in a roundabout way
329 2013-07-25 03:27:09 <petertodd> MC1984: exactly, and rdrand will certainly give you bits faster. Realisticly though, just use a proper PRNG.
330 2013-07-25 03:27:27 andyh2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
331 2013-07-25 03:27:30 <petertodd> MC1984: hard disk timings also depend on physical randomness due to turbulance
332 2013-07-25 03:28:04 <petertodd> Anyway, the question isn't "Is it random?" it's "Can my attacker guess those bits?"
333 2013-07-25 03:28:07 <Krellan> treat rdrand like /dev/urandom: fast random, not necessarily good random
334 2013-07-25 03:28:12 <MC1984> cool what other parts of a computer are non deterministic lol
335 2013-07-25 03:29:00 <MC1984> i seriously wouldnt trust intel hardware blocks for this stuff. They put shit in hardware for the fucking MPAA
336 2013-07-25 03:29:05 <petertodd> MC1984: A lot more than you'd think: any time there is more than one clock domain in a digital system you get randomness in the relative phase of those two domains.
337 2013-07-25 03:29:37 <MC1984> clock skew?
338 2013-07-25 03:29:47 <petertodd> yes
339 2013-07-25 03:29:54 <MC1984> isnt it all divided off a mastr crystal somewhere
340 2013-07-25 03:30:04 <petertodd> no, I said "clock domains"
341 2013-07-25 03:31:02 <MC1984> dont get it
342 2013-07-25 03:31:47 <petertodd> a clock domain is all circuits controlled by one master clock
343 2013-07-25 03:31:59 <petertodd> your computer has more than one clock, and they aren't synced exactly to each other
344 2013-07-25 03:32:12 <MC1984> theyre all multiples
345 2013-07-25 03:32:14 imton_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
346 2013-07-25 03:32:16 <petertodd> nope
347 2013-07-25 03:32:25 <MC1984> oh
348 2013-07-25 03:32:38 <petertodd> 20 years ago they were, but technology has moved on
349 2013-07-25 03:32:50 <MC1984> more than 1 crystal then
350 2013-07-25 03:33:04 <MC1984> ben a while since ive looked at PC arch
351 2013-07-25 03:33:05 <petertodd> heck, completely async logic is used for parts too, and the speed that logic executes any given operation is unpredictable
352 2013-07-25 03:33:38 Applicat_ has joined
353 2013-07-25 03:33:48 <MC1984> well that seems like fuckery
354 2013-07-25 03:34:12 <MC1984> i mean, theres a reason those traces look like a game of nokia snake 10 minutes in
355 2013-07-25 03:34:34 <petertodd> that's why async logic gets used, so you don't have to do that crap
356 2013-07-25 03:34:58 <MC1984> didnt know that was a thing
357 2013-07-25 03:35:04 <petertodd> in theory it's more reliable, lower power, faster etc. but there's a lot of complexity to actually getting those benifits
358 2013-07-25 03:35:04 <gmaxwell> So exach sha256 operation with this requires:
359 2013-07-25 03:35:09 <gmaxwell> 30 _mm_add_epi32
360 2013-07-25 03:35:09 <gmaxwell> 12 _mm_alignr_epi8
361 2013-07-25 03:35:09 <gmaxwell> 4 _mm_loadu_si128
362 2013-07-25 03:35:09 <gmaxwell> 16 _mm_set_epi64x
363 2013-07-25 03:35:09 <gmaxwell> 12 _mm_sha256msg1_epu32
364 2013-07-25 03:35:11 <gmaxwell> 12 _mm_sha256msg2_epu32
365 2013-07-25 03:35:14 <gmaxwell> 32 _mm_sha256rnds2_epu32
366 2013-07-25 03:35:16 <gmaxwell> 16 _mm_shuffle_epi32
367 2013-07-25 03:35:19 <gmaxwell> 4 _mm_shuffle_epi8
368 2013-07-25 03:35:24 imton has joined
369 2013-07-25 03:35:30 <petertodd> figures
370 2013-07-25 03:35:40 <gmaxwell> the timings on _mm_sha256msg1_epu32 _mm_sha256msg2_epu32 and _mm_sha256rnds2_epu32 aren't public yet.
371 2013-07-25 03:35:43 <MC1984> dat sum opcode
372 2013-07-25 03:36:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: so basically they don't know how fast it's gonna be...
373 2013-07-25 03:38:09 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
374 2013-07-25 03:38:24 <gmaxwell> oh I'm sure intel knows.
375 2013-07-25 03:38:29 <gmaxwell> They're not making it public though.
376 2013-07-25 03:38:30 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
377 2013-07-25 03:38:46 <MC1984> seems legit
378 2013-07-25 03:38:53 agnostic98 has joined
379 2013-07-25 03:39:06 <MC1984> arnt there already commercial sha boards
380 2013-07-25 03:39:16 <MC1984> like they do aes cards for servers
381 2013-07-25 03:39:30 <petertodd> MC1984: bandwidth two/from the cards is a killer
382 2013-07-25 03:39:47 <MC1984> pcie?
383 2013-07-25 03:40:04 <stevedekorte> This is a potentially good for Bitcoin, right? (less centralized control of mining)
384 2013-07-25 03:40:30 Application has joined
385 2013-07-25 03:40:34 <MC1984> even if it works, that wont be true for long
386 2013-07-25 03:41:16 <MC1984> if it works it might be actually ok for mining considering intel is on what 8nm or something now
387 2013-07-25 03:41:20 <MC1984> and people buy the stuff any way
388 2013-07-25 03:41:34 <petertodd> more like 32nm, maybe 24?
389 2013-07-25 03:41:45 <petertodd> 8nm is forecasted for something like 2020
390 2013-07-25 03:41:49 <MC1984> thought haswall was 14
391 2013-07-25 03:42:02 patcon has joined
392 2013-07-25 03:42:26 <MC1984> oh is 22nm
393 2013-07-25 03:42:55 <MC1984> i dont think we have very many shrinks left
394 2013-07-25 03:43:12 <MC1984> i remember reading years ago about how civilisation would stop in 2012
395 2013-07-25 03:43:14 <MC1984> lol
396 2013-07-25 03:43:43 <MC1984> process shrinks i mean not the mayan shit
397 2013-07-25 03:44:19 <petertodd> work out how many atoms wide 8nm is... it's not very many
398 2013-07-25 03:44:34 <gmaxwell> stevedekorte: certantly not bad.
399 2013-07-25 03:44:41 <gmaxwell> may not matter much from a mining perspective.
400 2013-07-25 03:44:57 <MC1984> an atom is about 100 angstroms right
401 2013-07-25 03:45:07 <MC1984> a hydrogen
402 2013-07-25 03:47:36 <gmaxwell> if I just assume that all operations except the shuffles, adds, and the round funcations a free, and the round functions have 1 cycle throughput. Then the whole invocation would take 106 cycles.
403 2013-07-25 03:48:06 <MC1984> no 100 angstoms is 10nm lol
404 2013-07-25 03:49:02 <gmaxwell> so that would make a quad core 3ghz chip get about 56 MH/s. I imagine in actuality it would be substantially less
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410 2013-07-25 03:50:57 <MC1984> depends on how much power that 56mh costs
411 2013-07-25 03:51:08 stevedekorte has quit (Quit: stevedekorte)
412 2013-07-25 03:51:43 <MC1984> you could probably discount the idle watts of the chip seeing as it would be on anyway probably, unless you made a farm on them for some reason
413 2013-07-25 03:51:56 <MC1984> so running that sha block should be almost free surely
414 2013-07-25 03:52:00 <gmaxwell> MC1984: 65 watts.
415 2013-07-25 03:52:12 <gmaxwell> (lets say, random ass number)
416 2013-07-25 03:52:21 <MC1984> seems high but ok
417 2013-07-25 03:52:45 <gmaxwell> I figure by the time this is in actual chips they'll be drawing less, but my performance guess is almost certantly an overestimate.
418 2013-07-25 03:53:30 <MC1984> anyon know how much watts it costs to run existing intl AES blocks at full tilt
419 2013-07-25 03:53:34 <MC1984> that might be representative
420 2013-07-25 03:54:12 <gmaxwell> I don't have any good way to measure usage.
421 2013-07-25 03:56:01 <MC1984> i wonder if AMD would consider something bitcoin specific
422 2013-07-25 03:56:15 <MC1984> theyve mentioned it officially atleast once
423 2013-07-25 03:56:28 <MC1984> theyre not competiing on raw performance any more, why not features
424 2013-07-25 03:57:17 <MC1984> i dont know if enough extra radeons got sold to notice on the income sheet
425 2013-07-25 03:57:19 <MC1984> prob not
426 2013-07-25 03:57:55 <gmaxwell> I don't know, estimates from our hashrate would have had us as a significant chunk of their high end gpu market, and a totally insignificant chunk of their overall gpu market.
427 2013-07-25 03:58:30 <gmaxwell> but the problem is now that dedicated asics are so fast and efficient that some feature in a general product really can't keep up.
428 2013-07-25 03:59:37 <MC1984> if they lithoed a proper double sha256 block onto their chips @ 24nm or whatever they are, that wouldnt be worth it?
429 2013-07-25 04:02:18 <gmaxwell> only to be outdone by a part with 64 of them in a slightly older process.
430 2013-07-25 04:04:05 <MC1984> i suppose i should be asking if/when companies like amd produce bitcoin asic boards
431 2013-07-25 04:04:56 * Luke-Jr cries at poor documentation
432 2013-07-25 04:07:35 andyh2 has joined
433 2013-07-25 04:13:02 gavinandresen has joined
434 2013-07-25 04:13:51 <gmaxwell> anyone have a patch handy to pull the pull the mempool from peers at startup (or otherwise)? differences in mempool size after restarting are goofing up some performance measurements I'm trying.
435 2013-07-25 04:15:51 DoctorBTC_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
436 2013-07-25 04:17:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: a trivial one..
437 2013-07-25 04:17:23 DoctorBTC has joined
438 2013-07-25 04:17:42 ericmuyser has joined
439 2013-07-25 04:18:07 <gmaxwell> yea, nevermind, did it myself. :P was just trying to avoid reinventing the wheel. :P
440 2013-07-25 04:18:12 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/2N2p1vdD
441 2013-07-25 04:22:26 <Luke-Jr> seems probing my LS pissed it off
442 2013-07-25 04:23:09 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
443 2013-07-25 04:23:28 gst has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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448 2013-07-25 04:26:43 has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|)
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457 2013-07-25 04:31:02 freewil has joined
458 2013-07-25 04:31:53 <Luke-Jr> "The erasing of non-volatile memories starts as soon as the CHIP_ERASE instruction is selected."
459 2013-07-25 04:31:54 * Luke-Jr facepams
460 2013-07-25 04:32:49 Neozonz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
461 2013-07-25 04:33:13 Neozonz has joined
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463 2013-07-25 04:34:29 h2odysee_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
464 2013-07-25 04:34:37 * warren facepalm.
465 2013-07-25 04:34:42 <warren> "subver" : "/MemeCoin:0.6.3/",
466 2013-07-25 04:35:26 <warren> Not sure how that's connected to my Litecoin node... but apparently that's one way Litecoin's alerts jumped onto the clone coin networks.
467 2013-07-25 04:36:10 <gmaxwell> people hack out the network version checks while trying to get stuff working?
468 2013-07-25 04:36:12 BenderCoin has joined
469 2013-07-25 04:38:26 <warren> gmaxwell: need alt coin generator ASAP
470 2013-07-25 04:40:32 gavinandresen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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487 2013-07-25 05:12:54 andytoshi is now known as narc-SEC
488 2013-07-25 05:15:15 narc-SEC is now known as andytoshi
489 2013-07-25 05:18:11 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
490 2013-07-25 05:23:07 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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495 2013-07-25 05:38:58 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
496 2013-07-25 05:39:25 darknyan has joined
497 2013-07-25 05:39:50 <gjs278> how the hell did namecoin get so much more valuable in the last two days what a joke
498 2013-07-25 05:40:15 BCBot has joined
499 2013-07-25 05:45:10 <stevedekorte> gjs278: is anyone using namecoin?
500 2013-07-25 05:45:20 <gjs278> people selling it for bitcoins
501 2013-07-25 05:45:25 xire has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
502 2013-07-25 05:45:27 <gjs278> that's the only real use
503 2013-07-25 05:45:50 nimdAHK has quit (Quit: Quit: Quit: Quit: Quit recursing, please.)
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529 2013-07-25 06:50:52 <warren> "<gmaxwell> [12:14:41] They're frequently attacked, so we could potentially learn about attacks that people aren't bothering to perform on bitcoin."
530 2013-07-25 06:51:27 <warren> gmaxwell: study the recent FTC time traveling attack. I bet some/many of the bitcoin pool software has the same vulnerability, just implausible to exploit.
531 2013-07-25 06:54:27 <swulf--> sipa: yet another db corrpution
532 2013-07-25 06:55:37 <jgarzik> swulf--, OSX?
533 2013-07-25 06:56:09 <swulf--> linux, atom cpu, using loop-AES
534 2013-07-25 06:56:38 <gjs278> treat yourself to some dmcrypt
535 2013-07-25 06:57:00 <swulf--> regardless
536 2013-07-25 06:57:05 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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538 2013-07-25 06:57:20 pumpkin has joined
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541 2013-07-25 07:02:12 <Luke-Jr> warren: we've known it does for a while..
542 2013-07-25 07:02:32 andyh2 has joined
543 2013-07-25 07:02:33 <warren> Luke-Jr: ok
544 2013-07-25 07:02:56 <warren> Luke-Jr: the one that can cause induce pools to reject all shares?
545 2013-07-25 07:02:57 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
546 2013-07-25 07:03:27 HM has joined
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550 2013-07-25 07:12:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: fun tidbit: FRCJoe is setting up to do merged mining Freicoin (master) + Namecoin
551 2013-07-25 07:15:49 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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555 2013-07-25 07:20:42 <freewil> Luke-Jr, so wait
556 2013-07-25 07:20:52 <freewil> namecoin already does merged mining with bitcoin
557 2013-07-25 07:21:03 <freewil> freicoin will do merged mining with namecoin?
558 2013-07-25 07:21:07 <Luke-Jr> freewil: Namecoin does merged mining. It doesn't care what the other chain is ;)
559 2013-07-25 07:21:38 <freewil> i guess i dont quite understand how merged mining works
560 2013-07-25 07:21:52 <freewil> why not just make freicoin do merged mining with bitcoin?
561 2013-07-25 07:22:00 <Luke-Jr> freewil: adding merged mining is a hardfork
562 2013-07-25 07:22:15 <Luke-Jr> Freicoin plans to add BC MM, but not immediately
563 2013-07-25 07:22:45 <freewil> so what's your opinion on the matter
564 2013-07-25 07:22:45 <Luke-Jr> in the year+, people have learned from NMC's MM, and FRC wants to do it better
565 2013-07-25 07:22:49 <Luke-Jr> ?
566 2013-07-25 07:23:08 <freewil> is freicoin a scamcoin
567 2013-07-25 07:24:07 <Luke-Jr> no
568 2013-07-25 07:24:29 stevedekorte has quit (Quit: stevedekorte)
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570 2013-07-25 07:25:30 <gjs278> if people want to make more merged mine coins, I am all for it
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687 2013-07-25 11:03:13 <ahmedbodi> hey guys
688 2013-07-25 11:03:45 <ahmedbodi> would any of you be able to give me an idea on how to check what bitcoin version a wallet is based on?
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702 2013-07-25 11:35:05 <sipa> swulf--: what OS were you using again, and where do the binaries come from?
703 2013-07-25 11:36:29 <warren> swulf--: and what filesystem?
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710 2013-07-25 12:01:45 <warren> sipa: do you still have that blacklist patch somewhere?
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713 2013-07-25 12:07:14 <sipa> warren: yes, it's a pullreq
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715 2013-07-25 12:10:04 <warren> ah
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722 2013-07-25 12:25:27 <ahmedbodi> could anyone give me some advice on how to set the aux chain id in a coins source
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747 2013-07-25 12:50:25 <Zetas> Hey guys, I'm building a wallet site for a client and I have a couple questions. The transactions that will normally move through the site will be > 0.5 btc but I'm running some tests on the live network with less than that and they are all getting caught in transaction fees. My question is, how can i get rid of the fees? and will we get fees on larger amounts like 0.5 or 1?
748 2013-07-25 12:51:05 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
749 2013-07-25 12:51:57 <Zetas> I have researched and I know "nuisance" transactions of 0.005 and such will get automatically tagged for fees but I also read that you pay fees depending on the way the bitcoins were received and not how their sent and thats very confusing to me so im worried that our larger transactions will get hit as well.
750 2013-07-25 12:52:31 xiangfu has joined
751 2013-07-25 12:53:37 <c0rw1n> Zetas, just include the tiny default tx fee, so they'll just be confirmed in 6 blocks as normal
752 2013-07-25 12:54:16 <Zetas> c0rw1n: What is the tiny default tx fee? What i read said it was 0.0001 per 100bytes or something
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754 2013-07-25 12:55:15 <c0rw1n> it's "market price", whatever that is at any given time...
755 2013-07-25 12:56:00 <c0rw1n> the priority of a transaction to be included in a block is calculated from the price-per-byte, and transaction age
756 2013-07-25 12:56:21 <c0rw1n> a fee-free transaction will _eventually_ be mined
757 2013-07-25 12:56:53 <c0rw1n> just not in the very next block(s)
758 2013-07-25 12:57:06 <Zetas> That explains why these micro transactions that i pay fees on seem to be confirmed instantly but when i send 3 or 4 btc it takes hours
759 2013-07-25 12:57:09 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
760 2013-07-25 12:57:27 <Zetas> I thought it was because of the size
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762 2013-07-25 12:57:45 <c0rw1n> size doesn't depend on the amont afaik, but i may be totally wrong
763 2013-07-25 12:59:24 <Zetas> I thought i understood bitcoin. I've been mining and using it to buy things since before SR but this is my first time using bitcoind and it's a lot more complicated than i thought.
764 2013-07-25 12:59:53 <Zetas> I can't even figure out how to get the sending address. The bitcoind transaction data only includes the destination address. I know it's out there somewhere i just have to figure out how to find it.
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768 2013-07-25 13:00:51 <c0rw1n> blockchain.info does that, right, so there must be some way... well the blockchain is a linked list, so you'd have to index it backwards and layer a little API to access it both ways
769 2013-07-25 13:01:25 <sipa> read the topic please
770 2013-07-25 13:01:29 <sipa> There is no from address
771 2013-07-25 13:01:46 <Zetas> I read that but when i look at my wallet on other sites they have the from address
772 2013-07-25 13:01:53 <sipa> they are wrong
773 2013-07-25 13:01:57 <sipa> transactions consume coins, and produce new ones, assigning them to addresses
774 2013-07-25 13:02:15 <sipa> those consumed coins may or may not have identifiable addresses they were previously sent to
775 2013-07-25 13:02:24 <sipa> but this is not guaranteed, nor is it useful information
776 2013-07-25 13:02:39 <sipa> as it does not tell you 1) who sent it 2) where you can send them back to
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778 2013-07-25 13:03:14 <jgarzik> oh brother
779 2013-07-25 13:03:21 <Zetas> Ok, cool. You got me off the hook, thanks :)
780 2013-07-25 13:03:23 <jgarzik> somebody created a CVE for this stupid RPC issue
781 2013-07-25 13:03:33 <jgarzik> "timing leak" my ass
782 2013-07-25 13:03:39 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, huh
783 2013-07-25 13:03:56 <phantomcircuit> anybody with rpc exposed to the public is gonna have a bad time
784 2013-07-25 13:04:10 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, indeed
785 2013-07-25 13:04:16 <sipa> well, that's not an argument
786 2013-07-25 13:04:20 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, reference https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2838
787 2013-07-25 13:04:26 * upb sidechannel attacks jgarzik's ass
788 2013-07-25 13:04:27 <phantomcircuit> im pretty sure that there is a deadlock issue if you ever try to make rpc_threads-1 concurrent rpc calls
789 2013-07-25 13:04:59 <sipa> the RPC has an authentication feature, so if it can expose the password through a timing attack, then there is a problem with that feature
790 2013-07-25 13:05:01 <phantomcircuit> lolol
791 2013-07-25 13:05:11 <sipa> nonetheless, i think this is a very theoretic problem only
792 2013-07-25 13:05:16 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that timing attack is too small a window to exploit anywhere
793 2013-07-25 13:05:20 <phantomcircuit> unless you have like
794 2013-07-25 13:05:23 <sipa> phantomcircuit: that i fully agree with
795 2013-07-25 13:05:25 <phantomcircuit> 64KB passwords
796 2013-07-25 13:05:39 <sipa> phantomcircuit: but saying "the feature is useless anyway, so if it breaks, this is no issue" is wrong
797 2013-07-25 13:06:03 <c0rw1n> apart from coinbase, what transactions have not been sent "from" somewhere? how does blockhain.info determine what address coins come from? I may be ridiculously wrong, but parsing the full blockchain doesn't look unfeasible
798 2013-07-25 13:06:47 <sipa> c0rw1n: they are sent "from" previous coins
799 2013-07-25 13:06:57 <phantomcircuit> c0rw1n, bc assigns the from address based on the "to" address of the consumed transaction
800 2013-07-25 13:06:59 <sipa> those previous coins may or may not have been assigned to addresses
801 2013-07-25 13:07:04 <phantomcircuit> which isn't necessarily right
802 2013-07-25 13:07:12 <sipa> those addresses are reported as "from addresses"
803 2013-07-25 13:07:19 <sipa> but this is not useful information
804 2013-07-25 13:07:23 <c0rw1n> hm ok
805 2013-07-25 13:07:27 <sipa> you can legitimately call it a "from address"
806 2013-07-25 13:07:35 <sipa> but this fosters a misunderstanding about how bitcoin works
807 2013-07-25 13:07:49 <Zetas> Im assigning users in the system to bitcoin accounts with their username as the key (as suggested on the bitcoind wiki). the client wants the ability to delete users but It appears to be impossible to "delete" accounts. What's the best way to handle that?
808 2013-07-25 13:08:00 <sipa> if you want to identify individual transactions, use a separate receive address for each
809 2013-07-25 13:08:12 <sipa> if you want to know where to refund money to, ask for a refund address
810 2013-07-25 13:08:35 <c0rw1n> but in "normal" cases, you can call it a from address? unless the coins went to weird wallets like ShamirSecretShared multisig nlocktimed inner transactions that implement a contract?
811 2013-07-25 13:08:41 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, DO NOT USE THE ACCOUNTS FUNCTION
812 2013-07-25 13:08:55 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, it's impossible to make consistent backups
813 2013-07-25 13:09:11 <Zetas> What does that mean?
814 2013-07-25 13:09:18 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, please point me to the wiki page so i can fucking delete it
815 2013-07-25 13:09:54 <Zetas> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PHP_developer_intro
816 2013-07-25 13:09:55 <sipa> c0rw1n: the point is that you should not care about where coins come from
817 2013-07-25 13:09:59 <sipa> c0rw1n: what do you need it for?
818 2013-07-25 13:10:12 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, the account -> bitcoin address map can be updated at anytime without any warning and is not deterministic
819 2013-07-25 13:10:37 <Zetas> How does it get updated?
820 2013-07-25 13:10:40 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, which means it's impossible to be 100% sure you've backed up that mapping
821 2013-07-25 13:10:51 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, it's saved in wallet.dat
822 2013-07-25 13:10:54 <Zetas> Oh, you're talking about backing up the wallet.dat
823 2013-07-25 13:11:08 <Zetas> even if you shutdown bitcoind first, backups wont work?
824 2013-07-25 13:12:15 <sipa> backups can only guarantee non-loss of money
825 2013-07-25 13:12:16 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, im saying you have no way to know when you need to create a backup
826 2013-07-25 13:12:23 <sipa> they cannot guarantee metadata changes
827 2013-07-25 13:12:49 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, the information about who should be assigned funds is essentially impossible to backup if you use the bitcoind accounts feature
828 2013-07-25 13:13:08 <Zetas> sipa: that doesn't make sense. If the metadata is stored in the wallet, shouldn't that be included in the backup?
829 2013-07-25 13:13:28 <sipa> Zetas: of course
830 2013-07-25 13:13:35 <sipa> Zetas: but you don't backup after every modification
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832 2013-07-25 13:13:49 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, keys are pregenerated, so you're backup will contain the next 100 addresses you ask for, the metadata however is not
833 2013-07-25 13:14:10 <phantomcircuit> so you would need to backup everytime an address/key is assigned to an account
834 2013-07-25 13:14:14 <phantomcircuit> which would be constantly
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836 2013-07-25 13:14:26 <phantomcircuit> there's also no way to know when that happens exactly
837 2013-07-25 13:14:45 <phantomcircuit> so you'd probably end up doing backups everytime you checked account statuses
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839 2013-07-25 13:15:15 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, believe me i spent several days trying to untangle a mess created by using the accounts stuff
840 2013-07-25 13:15:17 <phantomcircuit> do not use it
841 2013-07-25 13:15:46 <Zetas> That's not really feasable at this point heh I've spent the last week and a half tightly implementing it into the system.
842 2013-07-25 13:16:16 <Zetas> I have bitcoind shutting down every day and manually copying the wallet.dat to a backup location, this isn't good enough?
843 2013-07-25 13:16:34 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, no it's no and also there's an rpc call to generate a backup
844 2013-07-25 13:16:37 <phantomcircuit> you dont need to shutdown
845 2013-07-25 13:16:57 <Zetas> I know i didn't trust it. A running backup of a database makes me uneasy.
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849 2013-07-25 13:17:49 <sipa> the RPC essentially halts writing to the db, flushes it, closes it, copies it, and reopens it
850 2013-07-25 13:18:12 <Zetas> phantomcircuit: What happened when you had to untagle your wallet? What caused the issue?
851 2013-07-25 13:18:28 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, i had an old backup i had restored from
852 2013-07-25 13:18:46 <phantomcircuit> i had to guess about who was lying about transfers and who was telling the truth
853 2013-07-25 13:18:52 <phantomcircuit> fortunately it wasn't a lot of funds
854 2013-07-25 13:19:03 <phantomcircuit> but it could easily have been a huge mess
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856 2013-07-25 13:19:26 <Zetas> Ah, well I mirror all transactions in the database when they happen so it can be reconstructed if necessary.
857 2013-07-25 13:19:40 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, just do that in the first place
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861 2013-07-25 13:19:55 <Zetas> phantomcircuit: i am
862 2013-07-25 13:20:03 <Zetas> i have both, in case one fails
863 2013-07-25 13:20:06 <Zetas> i can use the other to reconstruct
864 2013-07-25 13:20:29 <phantomcircuit> why bother
865 2013-07-25 13:20:48 <phantomcircuit> assuming you're using a proper database you'll easily be able to mirror the db and have proper backups
866 2013-07-25 13:21:21 <Zetas> Well a single point of failure when handling money seems like a bad idea. This way if the mysql db dies for some reason i can reconstruct from the wallet. If the wallet dies, i can reconstruct from the sql db.
867 2013-07-25 13:21:58 <Zetas> It also makes it a lot easier to use accounts because it automatically handles balances for each user without me having to build the balance from the transaction list or maintain it somewhere else. It's very convenient programatically
868 2013-07-25 13:22:00 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, have two tables, bitcoin_addresses (user_id, bitcoin_address), bitcoin_transactions(txid, address, amount);
869 2013-07-25 13:22:27 <phantomcircuit> Zetas, just hope that nothing goes wrong
870 2013-07-25 13:22:28 <phantomcircuit> like
871 2013-07-25 13:22:29 <phantomcircuit> ever
872 2013-07-25 13:22:30 <Zetas> I started that way but when i found accounts i abandoned the addresses table lol
873 2013-07-25 13:22:35 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
874 2013-07-25 13:22:38 <phantomcircuit> or you'll be super screwed
875 2013-07-25 13:22:58 <phantomcircuit> it's *much* easier to have proper mysql backups
876 2013-07-25 13:23:14 <phantomcircuit> there's synchronous streaming replication and log shipping and all sorts of fancy stuff
877 2013-07-25 13:23:16 <Zetas> I appreciate the warning. I have been scouring the internet the last two weeks and have heard nothing like what you just said.
878 2013-07-25 13:23:17 <phantomcircuit> but most importantly
879 2013-07-25 13:23:17 Insti has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
880 2013-07-25 13:23:22 <phantomcircuit> it'll be self consistent always
881 2013-07-25 13:23:40 <Zetas> If there's a next time I'll definitely do it that way.
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884 2013-07-25 13:27:53 <Zetas> Thanks sipa and phantomcircuit, you helped quite a bit. I'm slowly becoming a bitcoin novice lol
885 2013-07-25 13:30:20 <iwilcox> Zetas: FWIW, from a non-dev, I echo everything phantomcircuit says.
886 2013-07-25 13:30:41 <phantomcircuit> iwilcox, i enjoy oreos
887 2013-07-25 13:30:53 <iwilcox> There be dragons. Wait for multiwallet support; in the meantime, DIY (better)
888 2013-07-25 13:31:05 <iwilcox> Except the Oreos thing.
889 2013-07-25 13:31:11 <iwilcox> Bourbons ftw :)
890 2013-07-25 13:32:01 <phantomcircuit> i wonder how much data i have to use before comcast gets mad
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906 2013-07-25 13:48:33 <Santzes> Hi! Is it possible to get input address(es) from bitcoind api? I'd need my software to automatically send bitcoins back to one of the sending addresses
907 2013-07-25 13:50:35 <phantomcircuit> Santzes, you cant do that
908 2013-07-25 13:50:38 <phantomcircuit> dont even try
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911 2013-07-25 13:51:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ^
912 2013-07-25 13:51:38 copumpkin has joined
913 2013-07-25 13:53:02 <Santzes> ok thanks, I guess I'll have to look for some other options
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916 2013-07-25 13:55:46 <Zetas> God, can't you read the topic? :P
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918 2013-07-25 13:56:33 <Santzes> oh damn sorry, somehow missed that
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962 2013-07-25 15:11:11 <enigmuriatic> can anyone give me a couple of addresses associated with Mt. Gox?
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975 2013-07-25 15:25:16 <jgarzik> sipa, Have a couple corruption reproducers in the BitPay office, which is OSX-heavy
976 2013-07-25 15:25:35 <jgarzik> hopefully can start some focused debugging in a day or two
977 2013-07-25 15:25:52 <TD> did they have resume-from-sleep failures?
978 2013-07-25 15:26:43 <fanquake> jgarzik any of the weird uncorruption instances?
979 2013-07-25 15:27:14 <TD> jgarzik: also, have you made any progress on network metrics? even stuff like how fast txns confirm at various fee levels would be good
980 2013-07-25 15:27:46 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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982 2013-07-25 15:28:02 <jgarzik> TD, zero zilch nada none
983 2013-07-25 15:28:19 <jgarzik> (progress on metrics)
984 2013-07-25 15:28:40 <jgarzik> fanquake, ENOPARSE
985 2013-07-25 15:28:43 <TD> there's a forum thread from someone complaining his transactions confirm slowly.
986 2013-07-25 15:28:44 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: have you done any work on setting up monitoring in general?
987 2013-07-25 15:28:55 <TD> it's hard to get a feel for how widespread such issues are atm
988 2013-07-25 15:28:57 <jgarzik> TD, good question RE resume. should have asked that question.
989 2013-07-25 15:29:11 <jgarzik> bluematt: zero silch nada none
990 2013-07-25 15:29:29 <BlueMatt> well, give it a month and Ill start
991 2013-07-25 15:29:32 * jgarzik is at the stage: #2, agreeing that we need metrics
992 2013-07-25 15:29:43 <jgarzik> (stage #1 is hot air ideas with zero code)
993 2013-07-25 15:29:51 <gmaxwell> TD: if you get the txid from that person complaining on the forum, be sure to look at the inputsâ I've seen a number of people suffering long confirm times after spending a coin at the end of a _long_ chain of unconfirmed txns.
994 2013-07-25 15:29:53 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
995 2013-07-25 15:30:01 <TD> yeah. i asked for a txid
996 2013-07-25 15:30:12 <jgarzik> td, bluematt: there is bitcoin-based funding for responsible people who want to work on network metrics
997 2013-07-25 15:30:23 <TD> we should really fix that .... there's no reason chains of transactions shouldn't be included in the same block
998 2013-07-25 15:30:54 <gmaxwell> TD: huh? they are.
999 2013-07-25 15:30:57 <TD> perhaps we should have somewhere we collect "important projects funded by serious people for serious developers" or something
1000 2013-07-25 15:31:09 <fanquake> jgarzik you'll have to excuse my noobness... enoparse?
1001 2013-07-25 15:31:16 <TD> gmaxwell: i thought there was some quirk in the mining code that meant that to be included a tx inputs had to be confirmed
1002 2013-07-25 15:31:24 <gmaxwell> TD: No.
1003 2013-07-25 15:31:25 <TD> fanquake: it means he does not understand what you mean
1004 2013-07-25 15:31:46 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hmm..well Im doing it either way (undergrad "research")
1005 2013-07-25 15:31:58 <fanquake> TD Ahh. Even google didn't seem to understand.
1006 2013-07-25 15:32:01 <TD> BlueMatt: when? :)
1007 2013-07-25 15:32:05 <TD> fanquake: it's a weird form of kernel-speak :)
1008 2013-07-25 15:32:12 <BlueMatt> TD: starting next semester, or when I have time
1009 2013-07-25 15:32:16 <TD> fanquake: -ENOPARSE is a kernel error code meaning "data failed to parse"
1010 2013-07-25 15:32:43 <fanquake> TD hah, ok. Cheers for the insight.
1011 2013-07-25 15:32:45 <gmaxwell> TD: but such txn can still take a long time even if miners were considering them as a group (which most do not today) just because the effective bytes/fee (or priority) is low.
1012 2013-07-25 15:33:03 <fanquake> I'll make sure to scrub on my kernel error codes.
1013 2013-07-25 15:33:39 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212])
1014 2013-07-25 15:33:50 <iwilcox> -EHOMEWORKNEEDED
1015 2013-07-25 15:34:59 <TD> oh, hmm. odd. i wonder why i thought that. i must be misremembering something
1016 2013-07-25 15:35:07 <TD> or perhaps it changed when ultraprune landed
1017 2013-07-25 15:35:50 <fanquake> jgarzik When you've got a chance, if you don't mind, take a look @ issue 2785. I'm running OSX as well. I've had instances of a chainstate DB uncorrupting itself after a restart.
1018 2013-07-25 15:36:16 <sipa> the uncorruption is even weirder than random corruption
1019 2013-07-25 15:36:21 <gmaxwell> No, it's always been the case, IIRC. I went back and checked some old blocks and see some examples.
1020 2013-07-25 15:36:33 <TD> then i have a corruption in my memory :)
1021 2013-07-25 15:36:34 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1022 2013-07-25 15:36:46 <sipa> it pretty much means the OS is returning inconsistent data when reading from disk...
1023 2013-07-25 15:36:53 <TD> sipa: i've seen that as well, actually. i didn't mention it because i figured i must be crazy and have re-ordered things in my brain.
1024 2013-07-25 15:37:02 <TD> sipa: but now other people say uncorruption, i guess it's a real thing
1025 2013-07-25 15:37:17 <TD> i am wondering if the OS has some kind of async repair process that patches up some bugs to do with failed resumes
1026 2013-07-25 15:37:28 <sipa> hmmm
1027 2013-07-25 15:37:31 <fanquake> sipa I
1028 2013-07-25 15:37:42 <sipa> i'm no king
1029 2013-07-25 15:37:59 <fanquake> sipa I'd love to know a way to better log it when it occurs.
1030 2013-07-25 15:38:16 <sipa> actually, it doesn't mean that... even if corruption is detected, it doesn't mean no data was being written
1031 2013-07-25 15:38:29 nomailing has joined
1032 2013-07-25 15:38:36 <sipa> in particular, the previous log maybe have been (partially) replayed
1033 2013-07-25 15:39:29 <TD> BlueMatt: when do you plan to work on metrics?
1034 2013-07-25 15:39:48 <TD> BlueMatt: if you need some supplementary income whilst back at university, it sounds like a good idea to take that on :)
1035 2013-07-25 15:40:46 <BlueMatt> TD: Ill start not long after I get back, but Im one of the very fortunate few who's parents pay for their college, so income isnt really required
1036 2013-07-25 15:41:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: which doesn't mean it isn't nice to get :p
1037 2013-07-25 15:41:50 <BlueMatt> well, ok, either way
1038 2013-07-25 15:41:57 <TD> income is always required. women impose it :)
1039 2013-07-25 15:41:59 <TD> heh
1040 2013-07-25 15:42:02 <BlueMatt> Im not really focused entirely on general metrics
1041 2013-07-25 15:42:07 * jgarzik scrolls back
1042 2013-07-25 15:42:16 <TD> what would you do?
1043 2013-07-25 15:42:19 <BlueMatt> more specifically on block relay and general network relay scaling
1044 2013-07-25 15:42:32 <jgarzik> Really, the basic thing we need is simply sampling points regularly producing raw data
1045 2013-07-25 15:42:33 <nsh> if you have declared income in the USA, chances are you're funding the world's worst military-industrial-surveillance-prison-general-cuntery-complex
1046 2013-07-25 15:42:38 <jgarzik> The rest will sort itself out, RE metrics
1047 2013-07-25 15:42:45 <BlueMatt> but building a system which gathers info on relay states is the first step
1048 2013-07-25 15:42:46 <jgarzik> If you generate the data, they will come.
1049 2013-07-25 15:42:47 <nsh> which is fine if that's not a problem for you. i'd have reservations though
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1051 2013-07-25 15:42:54 <BlueMatt> so it could probably be easily tweaked
1052 2013-07-25 15:43:17 <jgarzik> fanquake, enoparse == I did not understand what you wrote
1053 2013-07-25 15:43:56 <jgarzik> sipa, fanquake: what is uncorruption?
1054 2013-07-25 15:44:16 <sipa> jgarzik: you start bitcoind, it errors with "database corrupted!"
1055 2013-07-25 15:44:21 <sipa> jgarzik: you start it again, and everything work
1056 2013-07-25 15:44:25 <fanquake> correct
1057 2013-07-25 15:44:34 <jgarzik> worrying ;p
1058 2013-07-25 15:45:22 <fanquake> jgarzik note that you have to restart osx before opening it the second time
1059 2013-07-25 15:45:44 <gmaxwell> right, flushes the cached data. :-/
1060 2013-07-25 15:45:49 <sipa> fanquake: after an uncorruption, and as fast as possible afterwards, can you run a gettxoutsetinfo, and report the resulting hash_serialized?
1061 2013-07-25 15:45:55 <gmaxwell> sounds like disk / SATA bus data corruption?
1062 2013-07-25 15:46:05 <sipa> fanquake: together with the bestblock value
1063 2013-07-25 15:46:32 <fanquake> sipa sure
1064 2013-07-25 15:46:40 <sipa> oh, you have to restart
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1066 2013-07-25 15:46:54 <sipa> that points very strongly towards the OS indeed returning inconsistent read data
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1068 2013-07-25 15:47:00 <jgarzik> what is leveldb's corrruption/fsck story? Is each key/value pair checksummed?
1069 2013-07-25 15:47:00 <TD> or at least resume and unresume again?
1070 2013-07-25 15:47:15 <jgarzik> are there repair/examination tools?
1071 2013-07-25 15:47:17 <TD> blocks are checksummed
1072 2013-07-25 15:47:17 <fanquake> TD I haven't tried with resume/unresume yet.
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1074 2013-07-25 15:47:32 <TD> fanquake: i never restart my mac unless there's an OS update or it hoses itself. and i saw uncorruption.
1075 2013-07-25 15:47:32 jrick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1076 2013-07-25 15:47:39 <TD> so i suspect it may be time related or resume/unresume also does it
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1078 2013-07-25 15:48:09 <fanquake> TD fair enough. Guess it should be somewhat easier to log then?
1079 2013-07-25 15:48:54 <sipa> fanquake: with the hash_serialized value we can make sure your database is indeed perfectly intact
1080 2013-07-25 15:49:02 <sipa> fanquake: actually, can you run that right now?
1081 2013-07-25 15:49:13 <sipa> fanquake: on the system/database that has seen uncorruption
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1084 2013-07-25 15:49:41 <fanquake> sipa ok. Let me open QT
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1087 2013-07-25 15:51:42 <jgarzik> sipa, good thought
1088 2013-07-25 15:52:34 <sipa> fanquake: tell me when you start running; i'll run it in parallel (the output is dependent on the best chain your client knows)
1089 2013-07-25 15:52:43 <fanquake> sipa running now
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1091 2013-07-25 15:53:04 <fanquake> @ height 248324 "hash_serialized" : "98697a26e20ac38247aac860155a5b8ab74a5a2af71d076cc2670673adcb6e6d"
1092 2013-07-25 15:53:32 good_night_white has quit (Client Quit)
1093 2013-07-25 15:53:45 <fanquake> Now synced @ height 248386 "hash_serialized" : "248b68badf6f54508277230ac926589815fce869504598873ab5e223f25f4a47"
1094 2013-07-25 15:54:23 <sipa> that does NOT match my hash
1095 2013-07-25 15:54:24 Lolcust has joined
1096 2013-07-25 15:54:31 <sipa> anyone else can run a hash_serialized now?
1097 2013-07-25 15:54:40 <jgarzik> ACK fanquake
1098 2013-07-25 15:54:46 * jgarzik matches fanquake's hash
1099 2013-07-25 15:54:48 <sipa> ok
1100 2013-07-25 15:54:54 <fanquake> phew
1101 2013-07-25 15:55:00 <sipa> i may have run with the utxo pruning code on my node
1102 2013-07-25 15:55:04 <sipa> which would cause a difference
1103 2013-07-25 15:55:23 <jgarzik> running on Ubuntu inside Virtual Box VM, on OSX ;p
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1110 2013-07-25 16:05:51 <fanquake> jgarzik/TD can you remember the name of the OSX feature which is supposed to move your most used files to your SSD ?
1111 2013-07-25 16:06:02 <jchp> fusion drive?
1112 2013-07-25 16:06:05 <TD> no. but don't modern macbooks only have ssd?
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1114 2013-07-25 16:06:26 <fanquake> yes jchp
1115 2013-07-25 16:07:18 <fanquake> I've wondered wether the randomness could be at all related to that supposed feature. I'm running a 3TB with a 128GB SSD.
1116 2013-07-25 16:07:32 <jchp> it's just fancy read caching, e.g. bcache in linux
1117 2013-07-25 16:08:00 <jgarzik> BitPay is SSD-only macbook pro
1118 2013-07-25 16:08:10 <jgarzik> and two reports of QT crashing
1119 2013-07-25 16:08:30 <jchp> yeah most new apple gear is SSD only, pretty much the only ones that use "fusion drive" is some iMacs
1120 2013-07-25 16:09:19 <fanquake> Well if TD is seeing it without fusion drive guess that rules it out. Was just a thought.
1121 2013-07-25 16:09:37 <TD> i *believe* my laptop has only ssd
1122 2013-07-25 16:09:43 <TD> but i honestly never checked. i never heard it click :)
1123 2013-07-25 16:09:56 <jchp> oh if QT is crashing it's probably in software, you should check if the machines are using replacement libraries and crazy things like that (i'm looking at you, homebrew and macports)
1124 2013-07-25 16:10:38 <jchp> (assuming it's self built using linked libraries ofc)
1125 2013-07-25 16:10:42 <fanquake> jchp The crashes, or mine at least, are occurring with official builds. No home grown QT.
1126 2013-07-25 16:10:56 <jchp> ah never mind
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1161 2013-07-25 17:14:17 <iwilcox> Anyone know someone at Gox who could take down http://www.bitcoins.com/ ? Seems to be run by them but is linking to v0.3.24.
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1165 2013-07-25 17:19:48 <midnightmagic> <-- still can make feeless tx that get confirms within minutes. :-D
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1172 2013-07-25 17:32:20 <MobPhone_> sipa you around
1173 2013-07-25 17:32:44 <coinerd> can I speak here now?
1174 2013-07-25 17:32:47 <coinerd> excellent :)
1175 2013-07-25 17:33:14 <coinerd> I'm having trouble getting a transaction accepted by the network, I'm wondering if I can find any help/advice here
1176 2013-07-25 17:33:49 <coinerd> when I create the raw transaciton with a single input it's fine, when I add other inputs, even though it signs OK the network rejects it with error code -22
1177 2013-07-25 17:34:51 <gmaxwell> coinerd: look in debug.log
1178 2013-07-25 17:34:57 <gmaxwell> you should get more info in there.
1179 2013-07-25 17:35:04 <coinerd> ok headed to it thanks
1180 2013-07-25 17:35:26 <coinerd> ohhhh man this may take a while I don't have console access
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1186 2013-07-25 17:40:34 <coinerd> If I try to send the signed hex from my local wallet I get a line saying 'ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : CheckTransaction failed' is that relevant, or is sending a signed transaction from a different wallet expected to fail anyways?
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1188 2013-07-25 17:41:05 <coinerd> not to go on a tangent I'm working with admin to get the data from the server's debug.log as well
1189 2013-07-25 17:41:08 <gmaxwell> coinerd: when you run the sign does it return complete true?
1190 2013-07-25 17:41:13 <coinerd> yessir
1191 2013-07-25 17:41:22 <gmaxwell> and you're submitting the output of the sign?
1192 2013-07-25 17:41:31 <coinerd> I posted some stuff on bitcointalk too
1193 2013-07-25 17:41:32 <coinerd> yes
1194 2013-07-25 17:41:34 <gmaxwell> and not say, truncating it at a line break?
1195 2013-07-25 17:41:38 <gmaxwell> link?
1196 2013-07-25 17:41:42 <coinerd> after receiving it with "complete" = 1
1197 2013-07-25 17:41:57 <coinerd> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262442.0
1198 2013-07-25 17:42:12 <coinerd> I'm in infinitecoin because I don't have bitcoins to test with
1199 2013-07-25 17:42:30 <gmaxwell> if you're testing you should use testnet.
1200 2013-07-25 17:42:44 <coinerd> the original is being done in PHP directly there should be no truncation or line breaks
1201 2013-07-25 17:43:41 <gmaxwell> both your inputs look signed.
1202 2013-07-25 17:44:01 <coinerd> I tried including a high fee, too
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1205 2013-07-25 17:44:35 <gmaxwell> doesn't mean there aren't a billion other possible problems, some perhaps "infinitecoin" specific.
1206 2013-07-25 17:44:42 <coinerd> :)
1207 2013-07-25 17:44:49 <coinerd> I won't hound you for infinitecoin details
1208 2013-07-25 17:44:50 <gmaxwell> are you actually spending coins that exist and are spendable?
1209 2013-07-25 17:44:58 <coinerd> yes i believe so
1210 2013-07-25 17:45:05 <coinerd> this is an input provided by listunspent
1211 2013-07-25 17:45:22 <coinerd> and in this case both inputs are in the block chain
1212 2013-07-25 17:45:36 <coinerd> I am working towards a 0 conf arrangement
1213 2013-07-25 17:46:02 <coinerd> I Was sort of hopin I had just run into some noob issue
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1215 2013-07-25 17:47:17 <coinerd> the code in place is fine when refunding a tx using the original tx as input - it's when I try to add another input I run into this
1216 2013-07-25 17:47:39 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1217 2013-07-25 17:47:56 <sipa> MobPhone_: very much so
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1222 2013-07-25 17:53:41 <coinerd> ok i got a look at the debug.log it shows the same "CheckTransaction Failed" it leaves me stumped
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1224 2013-07-25 17:55:08 <sodoku> Hi, i am part of bitcoinkiez.de and would like to add shops to the bitcoin.it wiki. How do i get in the trused group?
1225 2013-07-25 17:56:36 <sipa> coinerd: CheckTransaction Failed means there is something very fundamentally wrong with the transaction
1226 2013-07-25 17:56:57 <sipa> coinerd: but there should be a "
1227 2013-07-25 17:57:12 <sipa> coinerd: but there should be a "CheckTransaction() : <reason>" message
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1229 2013-07-25 18:01:12 <coinerd> ok, there's none in debug log, when I try to send the tx it gives me error code -22
1230 2013-07-25 18:01:27 <coinerd> debug.log just gives me ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : CheckTransaction failed
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1232 2013-07-25 18:02:06 <sipa> really?
1233 2013-07-25 18:02:12 <sipa> there is no code path that can cause that
1234 2013-07-25 18:02:52 <MobPhone_> sipa check your msg please
1235 2013-07-25 18:02:58 <sipa> my what?
1236 2013-07-25 18:03:06 <coinerd> lol - ok that means that maybe i found an infinitecoin issue and need to stop asking here
1237 2013-07-25 18:03:33 <coinerd> or I'm looking int he wrong place - I got access i can flush the log and make sure I'm finding the relevant message now
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1239 2013-07-25 18:06:48 <sipa> no offence, but i'm not going to do tech support for <anything>coin
1240 2013-07-25 18:08:02 <coinerd> no it's no problem
1241 2013-07-25 18:08:47 <coinerd> I was just hoping it was a noob issue - I appreciate the advice I already got - since I don't work with bitcoin at this time - well if I can't get past it i may create a testnet setup
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1273 2013-07-25 18:42:19 <jgarzik> alas. My batch #3 avalon is lost in space (sent to old NC address, rather than new GA address)
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1276 2013-07-25 18:44:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: pretty awesome, one of my avalons did that. Sent to my old VA address. DHL left it with a random neighbor. I sent someone to go knocking on doors to rescue it.
1277 2013-07-25 18:44:35 <gmaxwell> (and did successfully)
1278 2013-07-25 18:44:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, the kicker, they acknowledged the change of address, and processed batch #2 to new address
1279 2013-07-25 18:44:49 <jgarzik> then batch #3 goes back to old
1280 2013-07-25 18:46:01 <gmaxwell> similarish for me roughly: I had multiple batch 1 units, they sent only one to the old address. Fortunately I knew it was coming because the other ones showed up, and DHL called me at 6am the day they went out for delivery.
1281 2013-07-25 18:46:19 denom has joined
1282 2013-07-25 18:46:58 <gmaxwell> the DHL call had an unintelligible tracking number, but I was able to get DHL to look it up based on candidate addresses.
1283 2013-07-25 18:47:27 <gmaxwell> I asked DHL to hold it for pickup, but they delivered it anyways.
1284 2013-07-25 18:49:25 jeewee has joined
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1286 2013-07-25 18:50:49 <jgarzik> whee
1287 2013-07-25 18:50:52 <jgarzik> testnet orphan flood
1288 2013-07-25 18:50:56 <jgarzik> 4000 and counting
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1301 2013-07-25 19:08:19 <Luke-Jr> weird, if I try to send, the balance field turns red
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1309 2013-07-25 19:14:09 <Luke-Jr> hum, looks like I'm reindexing from scratch
1310 2013-07-25 19:14:36 <Luke-Jr> after having accidentally tried starting the client when one was still running (I closed the window instead of quitting)
1311 2013-07-25 19:15:01 <Luke-Jr> hard to believe it is a coincidence
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1313 2013-07-25 19:15:28 <Luke-Jr> although who knows what the various patches in next-test might have influence on
1314 2013-07-25 19:15:48 <gmaxwell> we had that overlapping start theory... but I checked and it didn't look possible. :(
1315 2013-07-25 19:16:34 <Luke-Jr> 2013-07-25 19:07:55 ERROR: DisconnectBlock() : added transaction mismatch? database corrupted
1316 2013-07-25 19:16:53 <Luke-Jr> I did switch to an older next-test in the process - maybe this is the result of the pruning-unspendable-outputs?
1317 2013-07-25 19:17:05 Applica__ has joined
1318 2013-07-25 19:17:12 <Luke-Jr> are people actually sending unspendable outputs on mainnet?
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1322 2013-07-25 19:18:54 <gmaxwell> p2pool uses op_return..
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1324 2013-07-25 19:19:44 <Luke-Jr> ah, right
1325 2013-07-25 19:19:53 <Luke-Jr> well, that's a bit annoying
1326 2013-07-25 19:20:02 <Luke-Jr> I might have to revert that in my personal branch
1327 2013-07-25 19:20:04 <Luke-Jr> or backport it
1328 2013-07-25 19:20:11 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1329 2013-07-25 19:20:14 <Luke-Jr> (to this older version)
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1340 2013-07-25 19:25:24 * Luke-Jr suggests we ionice bitcoin-qt for reindex :/
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1342 2013-07-25 19:26:12 <gjs278> I suggest we ionice the damn upload speed
1343 2013-07-25 19:27:01 <gjs278> it makes no sense that we accept nodes that can only upload 100kb/s but I can't manually limit myself to 200kb/s
1344 2013-07-25 19:27:21 <gjs278> put a lower bound on it even, I don't care, just something so I'm not doing 500kb/s
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1346 2013-07-25 19:27:42 <Luke-Jr> gjs278: so limit the upload speed
1347 2013-07-25 19:28:02 <gjs278> is it an option in the application now? or should I just use something external
1348 2013-07-25 19:28:05 <Luke-Jr> I agree perhaps some traffic should get "bulk" QoS flags
1349 2013-07-25 19:28:16 <Luke-Jr> gjs278: bandwidth limits *should* be external
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1352 2013-07-25 19:28:59 <helo> should detection of the limitations of a peer be interal to allow for better peer selection?
1353 2013-07-25 19:29:09 <gjs278> I'll need to find something to wrap it in then... or maybe there's something that can limit certain pids
1354 2013-07-25 19:29:32 <helo> gjs278: i've seen it recommended that, if you want to limit your upload, you should just run with listen=0
1355 2013-07-25 19:29:48 KillYourTV has joined
1356 2013-07-25 19:30:01 <helo> it will keep your node from being a syncnode to someone, which could potentially be a big bottleneck
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1362 2013-07-25 19:31:06 <gjs278> I've seen that suggested too but it still doesn't stop anyone with a really bad connection from bottlenecking someone
1363 2013-07-25 19:32:14 <Luke-Jr> really, before any effort is put into making bandwidth limits easy, we should fix it so slow connections don't screw up the network as much
1364 2013-07-25 19:32:23 <TheUni> does anyone actively build from windows?
1365 2013-07-25 19:32:37 <sipa> TheUni: Diapolo
1366 2013-07-25 19:32:59 <helo> i suppose it would be kind of difficult for bitcoind to know how fast it should expect to be able to download, so that it can differentiate a bad peer from a good one. particularly when it's impossible to know if one's own connection is just getting bogged down temporarily...
1367 2013-07-25 19:33:14 <TheUni> hmm, damn. i wasn't aware that even existed. need to test that out
1368 2013-07-25 19:33:17 <TheUni> Diablo-D3: ping
1369 2013-07-25 19:33:21 <sipa> Luke-Jr, gjs278, helo: i'm working on headers-first sync with a simple form of parallel fetching
1370 2013-07-25 19:33:30 <sipa> TheUni: not Diablo-D3, Diapolo :)
1371 2013-07-25 19:33:37 <helo> sipa: i would be so happy :D
1372 2013-07-25 19:33:38 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: you don't want Diablo-D3â¦
1373 2013-07-25 19:33:40 <gjs278> you are the hero we needed, not the one we deserved
1374 2013-07-25 19:33:44 <Diablo-D3> ?
1375 2013-07-25 19:33:48 <gjs278> turn back now
1376 2013-07-25 19:33:52 <TheUni> grr, stupid tab-complete
1377 2013-07-25 19:33:55 <gmaxwell> sipa is close to having code that will prevent slow peers from breaking things.
1378 2013-07-25 19:33:56 MiningBuddy has joined
1379 2013-07-25 19:33:57 <TheUni> Diablo-D3: sorry, misfire :)
1380 2013-07-25 19:34:22 <sipa> i hope i'll have a minimally working version next weekend
1381 2013-07-25 19:34:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: does it relay new blocks in parallel too? :D
1382 2013-07-25 19:34:36 <gmaxwell> so if someone wants to work on throttling now, it could be work done in parallel.. though it would probably be prudent to delat throttling by one version behind headers first.
1383 2013-07-25 19:34:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
1384 2013-07-25 19:34:46 <Luke-Jr> aww
1385 2013-07-25 19:35:08 <TheUni> sipa: happe to have any docs pointing to the win32 build process? I don't recall seeing any
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1389 2013-07-25 19:36:02 <sipa> TheUni: i believe it includes several incantation, a rain dance around a 486, and sacrificing two goats
1390 2013-07-25 19:36:14 <TheUni> sipa: lol, that's about what i figured
1391 2013-07-25 19:36:22 <gjs278> bluematt got 200 bitcoins once from a guy for writing a guide on how to do a win32 build
1392 2013-07-25 19:36:32 <gjs278> and then the price jumped ridiculously high right after
1393 2013-07-25 19:36:37 <gmaxwell> build-msw.md isn't what you want?
1394 2013-07-25 19:37:14 <sipa> TheUni: in any case, i have no clue where to even begin
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1397 2013-07-25 19:37:50 <helo> if there was some quantative measure of network robustness, it seems that sipa's parallel downloading would give it a nice boost
1398 2013-07-25 19:38:18 <gmaxwell> there is "how long it takes to start a new node" ... at the moment, forever unless you're really lucky
1399 2013-07-25 19:38:18 <TheUni> gmaxwell: i suppose that's it, yea. thanks.
1400 2013-07-25 19:38:26 <gmaxwell> well only almost forever.
1401 2013-07-25 19:38:38 <TheUni> from a quick look, that should just work (tm) with autotools. I suppose i need to find a tester
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1406 2013-07-25 19:40:02 <TheUni> actually, i have no idea what build utils are included there
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1410 2013-07-25 19:40:47 <TheUni> is this build used enough to be a blocker for autotools?
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1414 2013-07-25 19:42:33 <sipa> TheUni: there are a few people who depend on it, and at least diapolo is a regular contributor
1415 2013-07-25 19:42:42 <sipa> TheUni: so i'd prefer windows building to work
1416 2013-07-25 19:42:49 <TheUni> ok
1417 2013-07-25 19:42:52 <TheUni> does he come around irc?
1418 2013-07-25 19:42:58 <sipa> rarely, but sometimes
1419 2013-07-25 19:43:04 <Luke-Jr> only when we call him here :p
1420 2013-07-25 19:43:23 <TheUni> i have no win32 box to build on...
1421 2013-07-25 19:43:43 <sipa> TheUni: i don't consider gitian determinism blocking, though
1422 2013-07-25 19:43:57 <TheUni> so i'll need a shell, a tester, or some time+virtual machine+bottle of whiskey
1423 2013-07-25 19:44:30 <TheUni> sipa: i finally got gitian up and running yesterday. i think that should be worked out
1424 2013-07-25 19:45:15 vigilyn2 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1425 2013-07-25 19:45:34 <sipa> so i think if you can squash the commits, demonstrate that gitian building + win32 building + osx building work, remove the old makefiles, and address jgarzik's comments (i think luke's weren't that essential), i'm fine with mergingf
1426 2013-07-25 19:45:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's release-blocking, at least
1427 2013-07-25 19:45:46 <TheUni> i'll ping diapolo on github and see if he's interested in helping
1428 2013-07-25 19:45:52 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it is
1429 2013-07-25 19:46:14 <digitalmagus2> So I understand there's something like 100 million bitcoin wallet addresses possible for each person on the planet (please correct me if I am wrong - I read that from somewhere), but what is the mechanism by which bitcoin ensures that any new address generated is not already pre-existing? Is it merely relying on the probability of generating a pre-existing address to be extremely low?
1430 2013-07-25 19:46:15 <Luke-Jr> no, mine weren't essential - just nicities
1431 2013-07-25 19:46:21 <Luke-Jr> can always improve things later too
1432 2013-07-25 19:46:32 <TheUni> sipa: i've addressed jgarzik's and the ones of Luke-Jr's that were obvious
1433 2013-07-25 19:46:37 <sipa> TheUni: great
1434 2013-07-25 19:46:54 <Luke-Jr> digitalmagus2: yes at the latter; it's more likely the sun explodes and destroys everything
1435 2013-07-25 19:47:19 <sipa> digitalmagus2: the probability is sufficiently low that if all bitcoin mining today were converted to optimized address mining, the chance that two people generate the same address won't be relevant for several million years
1436 2013-07-25 19:47:21 <TheUni> i'd like to have it building on win32, and gitian determinism fixed before merge, i think. I'd rather not be on the hook for those after the fact
1437 2013-07-25 19:47:23 <sipa> digitalmagus2: or something like that
1438 2013-07-25 19:47:54 <sipa> TheUni: once it's merged, others can help with fixing determinism more easily
1439 2013-07-25 19:48:10 <TheUni> mm, i suppose that's true
1440 2013-07-25 19:48:18 <sipa> but if you can make it work before merging, even better obviously
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1443 2013-07-25 19:49:13 <TheUni> i have gitian bootstrapping the source in each build at the moment. it's time-consuming and clumsy
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1445 2013-07-25 19:49:21 <digitalmagus2> Luke-Jr: I see. I was thinking exactly that... somebody could create an ASIC that just sits there and generates bitcoin addresses, if one is found to contain bitcoins, auto send bitcoins to a 3rd static address... In essence steal all the bitcoins from all bitcoin addresses.
1446 2013-07-25 19:49:26 <TheUni> i think it'll require some gitian patching to do it properly, and i'm not up for that at the moment
1447 2013-07-25 19:49:59 <Luke-Jr> digitalmagus2: I'm more concerned about the sun exploding.
1448 2013-07-25 19:50:11 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: it shouldn't!
1449 2013-07-25 19:50:13 <digitalmagus2> Luke-Jr: I'm very happy to hear you have that concern :-D
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1451 2013-07-25 19:50:20 <digitalmagus2> as opposed to mine ;-)
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1453 2013-07-25 19:50:29 <sipa> digitalmagus2: that is absolutely nothing to worry about if you do the math
1454 2013-07-25 19:50:33 <MC1984_> it might explode
1455 2013-07-25 19:50:38 <MC1984_> its not impossible
1456 2013-07-25 19:50:41 <digitalmagus2> yeah too many zero's to do the math... easier to ask here :)
1457 2013-07-25 19:50:57 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: maybe i'm missing something then. Is it possible to chain descriptors together?
1458 2013-07-25 19:50:58 <nsh> yeah, zeros make mathematics especially tricky
1459 2013-07-25 19:51:00 <sipa> you are more likely to be eaten by a shark whill being struck by lightning while being hit by an asteroid at the same time
1460 2013-07-25 19:51:02 <nsh> i try only to deal with the digits 3-7
1461 2013-07-25 19:51:06 <TheUni> meaning: always run one before another
1462 2013-07-25 19:51:09 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: nope
1463 2013-07-25 19:51:21 <digitalmagus2> sipa: Somehow that analogy doesn't make me feel very safe :P
1464 2013-07-25 19:51:32 <Luke-Jr> gitian could sure use an automated download/dependency system, but that's not essential or related to automake <.<
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1466 2013-07-25 19:51:58 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: well, each build has to bootstrap the source
1467 2013-07-25 19:52:03 <sipa> the weird thing with gitian is that it's only very rarely needed (once per release, really)
1468 2013-07-25 19:52:20 <sipa> the result of which is that debugging gitian issues probably take more time than many actual builds together
1469 2013-07-25 19:52:26 <TheUni> my hope was to bootstrap once and have it available to all other descriptors
1470 2013-07-25 19:52:35 <sipa> TheUni: why is that not possible?
1471 2013-07-25 19:52:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: if I didn't catch build issues sooner in next-test, we'd have at least 2 for 0.9 :P
1472 2013-07-25 19:52:41 <TheUni> ^^ could be done, but it would require manual intervention
1473 2013-07-25 19:52:43 <sipa> that's certainly how i'd do it?
1474 2013-07-25 19:52:50 <sipa> TheUni: meh, script it
1475 2013-07-25 19:53:02 <sipa> TheUni: currently the windows build depends on qt and boost builds too
1476 2013-07-25 19:53:03 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: "bootstrap" what?
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1478 2013-07-25 19:53:13 <sipa> bootstrap = generate source tarball, right?
1479 2013-07-25 19:53:23 <TheUni> sipa: you'd have to bootstrap it, grab the result, then feed that result into the other builds rather than a git revision
1480 2013-07-25 19:53:28 <sipa> yes
1481 2013-07-25 19:53:30 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: sounds easy
1482 2013-07-25 19:53:30 <TheUni> (which also isn't possible as far as i can tell?)
1483 2013-07-25 19:53:30 <TheUni> yea
1484 2013-07-25 19:53:39 <sipa> i'm sure it is
1485 2013-07-25 19:53:43 <Luke-Jr> most of the gitian yml files we have do exactly that
1486 2013-07-25 19:53:54 <sipa> the gitian descriptor wouldn't have a git input anymore, but a file input
1487 2013-07-25 19:54:04 <TheUni> sipa: ah oh, that's the part i missed
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1489 2013-07-25 19:54:26 <sipa> file input = file being present in the inputs directory
1490 2013-07-25 19:54:30 <sipa> which is sort of ugly
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1492 2013-07-25 19:54:41 <Luke-Jr> but we're used to it
1493 2013-07-25 19:54:47 <TheUni> heh
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1497 2013-07-25 19:54:55 <sipa> as it either requires overwriting the same file, or updating the file name for every release...
1498 2013-07-25 19:55:21 <TheUni> right. i was hoping gitian was able to chain an output to an input to avoid that
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1500 2013-07-25 19:55:43 <Luke-Jr> that's a feature request for gitian, not essential for automake IMO
1501 2013-07-25 19:55:46 <sipa> agree
1502 2013-07-25 19:56:02 <sipa> it's a serious limitation, but it's easily overcome by scripting gitian
1503 2013-07-25 19:56:05 <TheUni> ok
1504 2013-07-25 19:56:09 <Luke-Jr> we already need to do it for deps anyway
1505 2013-07-25 19:56:27 <sipa> so i guess you'll get a gitian descriptor for the source build, and the others using the output of the source build as a file input
1506 2013-07-25 19:56:36 <TheUni> for now, i'll PR it the ugly way with the bootstrapping done each time, hoping someone will step in and do the above
1507 2013-07-25 19:56:37 * Luke-Jr wonders how much he'd need to prod at Gentoo to make the system entirely deterministic
1508 2013-07-25 19:56:43 <sipa> TheUni: good enough
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1512 2013-07-25 20:01:14 <Luke-Jr> sigh, reindex is so slow
1513 2013-07-25 20:01:24 <Luke-Jr> doesn't look like I'll be able to make the transfer I wanted to to day
1514 2013-07-25 20:01:37 <sipa> where are you?
1515 2013-07-25 20:01:48 <sipa> (what block)
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1517 2013-07-25 20:02:55 <Luke-Jr> 137,353
1518 2013-07-25 20:03:20 <warren> secp256k1 + -dbcache=<huge number>?
1519 2013-07-25 20:03:21 <sipa> if you can increase dbcache, that'll probably speed things up
1520 2013-07-25 20:03:39 <Luke-Jr> what's a reasonable value?
1521 2013-07-25 20:03:42 <sipa> 1000
1522 2013-07-25 20:03:54 <Luke-Jr> 16 GB RAM
1523 2013-07-25 20:04:03 <sipa> well feel free to set it to 4000 :)
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1525 2013-07-25 20:04:17 <sipa> the default is 25
1526 2013-07-25 20:04:37 <Luke-Jr> ouch
1527 2013-07-25 20:04:49 <Luke-Jr> wait, will 4000 break if I'm 32-bit? <.<
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1530 2013-07-25 20:06:05 <sipa> oh yes
1531 2013-07-25 20:06:14 <sipa> on 32-bit you'll likely don't want to go above 2000
1532 2013-07-25 20:06:30 <sipa> but the speedups above a few hundred aren't really impressive
1533 2013-07-25 20:06:46 <sipa> dimishing returns :)
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1544 2013-07-25 20:32:27 <warren> sipa: should bitcoin detect the amount of available RAM and increase the dbcache automatically if it has a long way to go on indexing?
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1549 2013-07-25 20:35:12 <midnightmagic> be gentle with that, I have a pile of testing containers under lxc, so technically each could steal all my ram.
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1564 2013-07-25 20:46:42 <sipa> warren: if you have a safe, sane and portable way to do so
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1572 2013-07-25 20:51:03 <gmaxwell> TheUni: if you have mingw you should just cross compipleiple [Bshould just be able to cross compile to test..
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1575 2013-07-25 20:51:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: cross-compiling isn't the same as native windows builds...?
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1591 2013-07-25 21:19:52 <TheUni> gmaxwell: sure, cross works fine
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1595 2013-07-25 21:24:03 <TheUni> gmaxwell: i think native should be fine too. my concern is that i'm not sure what tools are assumed to be in the env (automake/autoconf/etc)
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1605 2013-07-25 21:42:24 <Luke-Jr> Hacking BitForce SC firmware using free tools: http://bitcointroll.org/?topic=262558.0
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1608 2013-07-25 21:45:40 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: +1
1609 2013-07-25 21:46:07 <sipa> TheUni: also, pulltester can be fixed after merging
1610 2013-07-25 21:46:38 <TheUni> sipa: ok, great. that one's another big mess that i'd prefer to put off for a bit
1611 2013-07-25 21:47:10 <sipa> if it's "fixed" before, it'll fail on all but your pullreq anyway
1612 2013-07-25 21:48:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: shouldn't! pulltester should be fixed to work with either branch :P
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1614 2013-07-25 21:49:43 <TheUni> yes, the obvious solution to that is to put the script in git
1615 2013-07-25 21:50:04 <TheUni> this is a textbook case of how out-of-tree files always bite you in the ass :)
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1620 2013-07-25 21:54:16 <Luke-Jr> yeah, BFGMiner has a script to do the entire build :p
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1622 2013-07-25 21:54:21 <Luke-Jr> well, for Win32 and OpenWrt at least
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1773 2013-07-25 23:43:15 <Luke-Jr> reindex: just 44 weeks behind left :/
1774 2013-07-25 23:43:26 nomailing1 has quit (Quit: nomailing1)
1775 2013-07-25 23:43:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not sure dbcache made any difference
1776 2013-07-25 23:44:13 Squidicuz has joined
1777 2013-07-25 23:44:27 <sipa> strange that it's so slow for you
1778 2013-07-25 23:44:31 <sipa> what hardware?
1779 2013-07-25 23:44:36 BCBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1780 2013-07-25 23:44:46 <Luke-Jr> i5-2400, 7200 RPM magnetic drive
1781 2013-07-25 23:44:50 BCBot has joined
1782 2013-07-25 23:45:11 <Luke-Jr> it's using 996 MB virtual memory, despite -dbcache=1500
1783 2013-07-25 23:45:35 <Luke-Jr> 200% CPU use
1784 2013-07-25 23:45:36 <sipa> the heuristic isn't particulatly accurate
1785 2013-07-25 23:45:42 <sipa> 200% :O
1786 2013-07-25 23:45:58 <TheUni> sipa: do you know if the win32 installer is deterministic? or only the binaries inside?
1787 2013-07-25 23:45:59 <sipa> that means the leveldb thread is fully loaded
1788 2013-07-25 23:46:14 <sipa> TheUni: the installer is deterministic
1789 2013-07-25 23:46:20 <TheUni> ok thanks
1790 2013-07-25 23:46:32 <sipa> Luke-Jr: very weird
1791 2013-07-25 23:46:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: 96.9% CPU in the main thread
1792 2013-07-25 23:46:46 <Luke-Jr> 89.9% in bitcoin-loadblk
1793 2013-07-25 23:46:56 <sipa> what is the "main thread" ?
1794 2013-07-25 23:47:01 <Luke-Jr> the rest are basically 0
1795 2013-07-25 23:47:05 <TheUni> sipa: mind if i shoot you a quick pm?
1796 2013-07-25 23:47:05 <Luke-Jr> main thread = the one we don't rename
1797 2013-07-25 23:47:09 <sipa> TheUni: shoot
1798 2013-07-25 23:47:15 <sipa> heh
1799 2013-07-25 23:47:21 one_zero has joined
1800 2013-07-25 23:47:30 <Luke-Jr> although it looks like there's 5 of those
1801 2013-07-25 23:47:39 <Luke-Jr> the one with tid=pid âº
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1803 2013-07-25 23:47:57 <sipa> Luke-Jr: still no idea which one that is
1804 2013-07-25 23:48:59 <Luke-Jr> #19 0x080cf96f in TransactionTableModel::updateConfirmations (this=0xc593ee0)
1805 2013-07-25 23:49:17 <sipa> oh, GUI stuff...
1806 2013-07-25 23:49:28 * Luke-Jr ponders if using bitcoind would go faster
1807 2013-07-25 23:49:33 <Luke-Jr> or maybe a smaller wallet
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1810 2013-07-25 23:53:58 <Luke-Jr> only 100% CPU with a smaller wallet
1811 2013-07-25 23:54:11 <Luke-Jr> almost all in loadblk
1812 2013-07-25 23:54:18 <sipa> that's what it should be
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1818 2013-07-25 23:59:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: isn't it supposed to use all cores for verifying faster?
1819 2013-07-25 23:59:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: once you pass the last checkpoint, yes
1820 2013-07-25 23:59:47 <Luke-Jr> ah
1821 2013-07-25 23:59:58 <sipa> only signature checking is parallellized
1822 2013-07-25 23:59:58 <Luke-Jr> too bad there's no notable speed increase from this :/
1823 2013-07-25 23:59:59 <coinerd> is anyone here willing to share some testnet coins?