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19 2013-07-26 00:18:29 <MC1984_> coinerd need coins?
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21 2013-07-26 00:18:42 <coinerd> oh, god yes
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23 2013-07-26 00:19:04 <coinerd> this has taken half the day, over an hour mining i can't get any of them
24 2013-07-26 00:19:16 <MC1984_> drop an address
25 2013-07-26 00:19:26 <Diablo-D3> coinerd: uh
26 2013-07-26 00:19:28 <Diablo-D3> oh
27 2013-07-26 00:19:30 <Diablo-D3> testnet
28 2013-07-26 00:19:32 <coinerd> found this problem in 2 other coins no one can help I'm trying to set up a testnet so someone will help me
29 2013-07-26 00:19:33 <Diablo-D3> I was like, wtf man
30 2013-07-26 00:19:44 <MC1984_> testcoins bru
31 2013-07-26 00:19:44 <ahmedbodi> hey guys
32 2013-07-26 00:21:17 <coinerd> hi ahmed
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34 2013-07-26 00:22:32 <coinerd> msEvCRA9767U9u1p8tioSqrubUV62gga6w
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36 2013-07-26 00:22:46 <coinerd> ok one testnet addy there you go
37 2013-07-26 00:22:48 <ahmedbodi> hows it goin?
38 2013-07-26 00:23:02 <coinerd> I'm frustrated and pissed and ready to break some shit
39 2013-07-26 00:23:06 <coinerd> thanks for asking :)
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43 2013-07-26 00:25:08 <MC1984_> oh fuck my android has to charge lol
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47 2013-07-26 00:26:34 <ahmedbodi> no worries
48 2013-07-26 00:26:46 <ahmedbodi> heard youre joining us on project infinite
49 2013-07-26 00:28:01 <coinerd> Probably although I have some concerns in competing with my own projects
50 2013-07-26 00:29:10 <MC1984_> is that a malformed address
51 2013-07-26 00:29:33 <coinerd> me" let me check but I used the "copy address" funciton of my QT client
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55 2013-07-26 00:30:03 <coinerd> I have this one msEvCRA9767U9u1p8tioSqrubUV62gga6w and this one muBRqt67MMcQuwTTGgJe5MmxNg39SyrNyA
56 2013-07-26 00:30:58 <ahmedbodi> yeah me too
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59 2013-07-26 00:31:35 <coinerd> is there any way to turn off the feed of who's leaving and joining an timing out on here?
60 2013-07-26 00:31:47 <MC1984_> android wallet though the first one was malformed
61 2013-07-26 00:32:58 <coinerd> well that would be in line with the rest of my day lol - just got ten coins though - I'll change my limits so that'e enough to roll with, thanks
62 2013-07-26 00:33:31 <coinerd> I can set the fees down to .005 to make it last a little longer, right?
63 2013-07-26 00:33:51 <MC1984_> no wait, i included a blankspace in the QR generator again ><
64 2013-07-26 00:33:57 <TheLordOfTime> coinerd: depends on your IRC client.
65 2013-07-26 00:34:04 <TheLordOfTime> why am I opped... again...
66 2013-07-26 00:34:09 <MC1984_> i really think android wallt should warn about that
67 2013-07-26 00:34:12 * TheLordOfTime shrugs
68 2013-07-26 00:34:39 <coinerd> ah yeah or just trim the field
69 2013-07-26 00:34:53 <MC1984_> coinerd no problem, just send them back if/when you can
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71 2013-07-26 00:35:23 <coinerd> I'll send back what I can but I suspect that I will lose most of it to tx fees
72 2013-07-26 00:35:54 <TheLordOfTime> coinerd: <coinerd> is there any way to turn off the feed of who's leaving and joining an timing out on here? <-- go to the little irc icon at the top left, click that, hit options, in the checkboxes, hit "Hide JOINS/PARTS/QUITS", hit save.
73 2013-07-26 00:35:56 <MC1984_> nomatter
74 2013-07-26 00:36:01 <TheLordOfTime> (i checked, you're using webchat)
75 2013-07-26 00:36:02 <coinerd> also, I just realized that in my current state I'm not even going to be able to take this well at all - i forgot about bitcoin transaction times
76 2013-07-26 00:36:28 macboz has joined
77 2013-07-26 00:36:42 <coinerd> excellent, thank you TheLordOfTime - yes I have webchat I am not usually in IRC
78 2013-07-26 00:37:00 <TheLordOfTime> coinerd: thank the fact freenode's webchat responded today, I very rarely actually use the webchat :P
79 2013-07-26 00:37:06 <TheLordOfTime> and normally it times out for me :P
80 2013-07-26 00:37:15 <MC1984_> LOL my android is so out of juice the screen dims with cpu usage
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82 2013-07-26 00:37:24 <TheLordOfTime> MC1984_: ouch.
83 2013-07-26 00:37:28 <TheLordOfTime> so charge it?
84 2013-07-26 00:37:43 <MC1984_> good thinking batman
85 2013-07-26 00:37:58 <coinerd> ok I'm off to get some nicotene and try to calm down a bit - I'm really laughing now, I've done over 1000 iterations today I can't even imagine testing this in bitcoin. I hope i can reproduce right away
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231 2013-07-26 05:28:11 <coinerd> somebody rained down a ton of tiny transactions on me - thanks I
232 2013-07-26 05:28:17 BitCoroner has joined
233 2013-07-26 05:28:26 <coinerd> I got rained on
234 2013-07-26 05:28:44 <coinerd> a ton of .0000546 - I think this is the only place I posted that address
235 2013-07-26 05:28:51 <coinerd> thanks, if you're here
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252 2013-07-26 05:50:29 <TheUni> any win32 devs around by any chance?
253 2013-07-26 05:51:04 <sipa> llll
254 2013-07-26 05:51:56 <TheUni> ?
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292 2013-07-26 06:53:27 <gavinandresen> You know what I hate? I hate undocumented behavior that makes you think your code has a bug. https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-24827 is the bug I've spent a couple days tracking down in the payment protocol code
293 2013-07-26 06:56:59 <Luke-Jr> eww
294 2013-07-26 06:57:23 <Luke-Jr> looks like they're not fixing it for 4.x :/
295 2013-07-26 06:58:11 <Luke-Jr> I guess since it only affects Windows and Diapolo's been working on 5.x support, it's less of a problem for us
296 2013-07-26 06:59:27 <gavinandresen> I'm just glad I never visited bitcoincore.org with IE on my test machine, because that would have cached the root cert and I would have been REALLY confused as to why the bug suddenly disappeared....
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299 2013-07-26 07:02:16 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, that is hilarious
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301 2013-07-26 07:04:15 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I bet it isn't to him if he spent days on it :/
302 2013-07-26 07:07:22 <gavinandresen> Yeah, it'll be funny later. Most of the debugging time was spent trying (and failing, actually) to get a debuggable version of Qt/bitcoin-qt compiled on Windows
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304 2013-07-26 07:09:27 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: MingW's -ggdb seems to work in MSYS's gdb as long as it doesn't crash
305 2013-07-26 07:09:40 <Luke-Jr> I also build with -O0, which might help more
306 2013-07-26 07:10:19 <Luke-Jr> Ctrl-C won't work, though - there's some Win API to send a debug interrupt
307 2013-07-26 07:10:36 <Luke-Jr> (Ctrl-C won't work to break into GDB, that is)
308 2013-07-26 07:10:54 <gavinandresen> My brain is too full to remember crap like that these days....
309 2013-07-26 07:15:31 <petertodd> "untrusted root is checked with microsoft on demand whether it should be trusted or not" <- what an excellent way to ensure you can update the CA's as required... scary
310 2013-07-26 07:16:35 <petertodd> sure they can bug updates anyway, but something like that is particularly annoying to disable
311 2013-07-26 07:20:28 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, early up or late to sleep
312 2013-07-26 07:20:55 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: I'm in Australia, it is 5:20pm here
313 2013-07-26 07:20:58 <phantomcircuit> oh
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315 2013-07-26 07:22:22 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, are there meeting minutes available for foundation director votes
316 2013-07-26 07:22:30 <phantomcircuit> (they should be)
317 2013-07-26 07:22:43 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: next meeting coming up?
318 2013-07-26 07:23:16 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, i want to know who voted to empower patrick murck to write tone deaf press releases
319 2013-07-26 07:23:30 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: example?
320 2013-07-26 07:23:41 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: I think Jon talked about that in his interview with Lets Talk Bitcoin. I missed the last meeting
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322 2013-07-26 07:24:10 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, http://www.scribd.com/doc/154799860/Bitcoin-Foundation-Comments-on-Liberty-Reserve-Special-Measures-NPRM
323 2013-07-26 07:24:19 <gavinandresen> Foundation board meetings are much less interesting than people imagine
324 2013-07-26 07:24:43 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, im sure they are
325 2013-07-26 07:24:45 <gavinandresen> .... and most meetings we don't vote on anything
326 2013-07-26 07:25:03 <petertodd> gavinandresen: the volcanic lair sure has a lot of beige carpet :(
327 2013-07-26 07:25:07 grau has joined
328 2013-07-26 07:25:14 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: what do you think is tone deaf?
329 2013-07-26 07:25:16 <phantomcircuit> i just want to specifically know the vote on this issue
330 2013-07-26 07:25:26 <gavinandresen> which issue?
331 2013-07-26 07:26:24 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, murck issuing press releases and filling comments with fincen on behalf of the foundation
332 2013-07-26 07:26:32 <phantomcircuit> he needs specific authorization to do that
333 2013-07-26 07:27:36 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, while he is reasonably careful to draw a distinction between liberty reserve and virtual currency in general (indeed that is the entire purpose of the letter)
334 2013-07-26 07:27:40 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: sounds to me like things I'd expect head counsel to do
335 2013-07-26 07:27:45 AusBitBank has joined
336 2013-07-26 07:27:59 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
337 2013-07-26 07:28:02 <gavinandresen> mmm, board doesn't micro-manage press releases or responding to legal crap
338 2013-07-26 07:28:12 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, none the less it draws a connection which was not necessarily preciously in the minds of regulators
339 2013-07-26 07:28:15 <gavinandresen> ... this is off-topic for #bitcoin-dev, though.
340 2013-07-26 07:28:36 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I'm not seeing any big issue here, and agree with gavin
341 2013-07-26 07:28:53 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, it's not just the one thing
342 2013-07-26 07:28:55 <phantomcircuit> it's everything
343 2013-07-26 07:29:06 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: Patrick is pretty plugged in to what the regulators are thinking, he's been spending lots of time in DC
344 2013-07-26 07:29:48 HM has joined
345 2013-07-26 07:30:01 <petertodd> indeed, anyway legal is a different world than what we do
346 2013-07-26 07:30:06 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, the vast majority of the regulators here are in various state offices
347 2013-07-26 07:30:09 <phantomcircuit> not washington dc
348 2013-07-26 07:30:14 <gavinandresen> Not different enough....
349 2013-07-26 07:30:14 <petertodd> note how even jdillon took patricks advice for wording: https://github.com/pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo/pull/4#issuecomment-20581453
350 2013-07-26 07:31:00 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: are you a Foundation member? All this is discussed in the member forums a fair bit
351 2013-07-26 07:31:18 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, sure
352 2013-07-26 07:31:19 ThomasV has joined
353 2013-07-26 07:32:10 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i looked but didn't find anything discussing this
354 2013-07-26 07:32:15 <phantomcircuit> maybe i didn't look hard enough
355 2013-07-26 07:32:18 <petertodd> gavinandresen: different==don't assume we understand the language
356 2013-07-26 07:32:40 <phantomcircuit> the best example is the response to the CA DFI C&D
357 2013-07-26 07:32:50 <phantomcircuit> that letter warranted nothing more than a blanket denial
358 2013-07-26 07:33:26 <phantomcircuit> it was nothing more than a response to arron greenspan suing everybody
359 2013-07-26 07:34:08 <fanquake> gavinandresen If you don't mind me asking, how are you liking it over here? Your up in North QLD right?
360 2013-07-26 07:34:52 <gavinandresen> fanquake: yes, Mission Beach. We spent five months here four years ago, and liked it so much we decided to do it again
361 2013-07-26 07:35:18 <gavinandresen> Saw two cassowaries today (parent and chick)...
362 2013-07-26 07:35:35 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
363 2013-07-26 07:35:38 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: patricks letter reads like a targetted denial to me...
364 2013-07-26 07:35:52 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: targetted blanket denial I guess you could say
365 2013-07-26 07:36:16 <fanquake> gavinandresen cool. QLD's pretty great, only been once though. How's the rain?
366 2013-07-26 07:36:46 <gavinandresen> fanquake: a lot more rain this time than when we were here last, but the sunny days are glorious
367 2013-07-26 07:37:17 kyledrake has joined
368 2013-07-26 07:37:46 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, it went quite beyond that though, indeed he goes to the point of denying that a bitcoin exchange is a money transmitter under CA law
369 2013-07-26 07:38:07 <fanquake> gavinandresen Make sure you spend those sunny days outside :p
370 2013-07-26 07:38:20 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: response to that letter from members and others has been overwhelmingly positive
371 2013-07-26 07:38:25 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, an opinion he has previously voiced
372 2013-07-26 07:38:41 <phantomcircuit> which i feel is not only wrong but dangerous
373 2013-07-26 07:38:41 <bitnumus> hey, dont suppose anyone has data for block confirmation times?
374 2013-07-26 07:38:56 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: why?
375 2013-07-26 07:38:59 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, you've got an echo chamber going on
376 2013-07-26 07:39:24 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: common in legal stuff to deny everything initially
377 2013-07-26 07:39:24 <phantomcircuit> real attorneys who have reviewed that letter were not amused
378 2013-07-26 07:39:46 <gavinandresen> okey dokey....
379 2013-07-26 07:40:19 <Luke-Jr> the only letter that concerned me was the one giving an opinion which led to the logical conclusion that Bitcoin transactions were inherently unsafe to do ever..
380 2013-07-26 07:40:29 * gavinandresen is not going to be lured into a pointless argument about what constitutes a "real attorney"
381 2013-07-26 07:40:36 <Luke-Jr> on the topic of whether to return accidentally lost coins or not
382 2013-07-26 07:40:58 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, while that is a fairly common tactic, i do not believe that is what is happening there, as far as i can tell he quite honestly believes that interpretation to be correct
383 2013-07-26 07:41:07 <bitnumus> transactions are taking too long to confirm, too often
384 2013-07-26 07:41:14 <Luke-Jr> (although some of the others did sound more adversial than they had to be..)
385 2013-07-26 07:41:16 <bitnumus> bank transfers are faster, this is getting frustrating.
386 2013-07-26 07:41:28 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: so add more fees
387 2013-07-26 07:41:33 <bitnumus> doesnt matter
388 2013-07-26 07:41:37 kyledrake has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
389 2013-07-26 07:41:37 <bitnumus> if a block isnt mined des it
390 2013-07-26 07:41:41 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=152
391 2013-07-26 07:41:52 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
392 2013-07-26 07:41:52 <bitnumus> yesterday there were like 3 60min blocks in a row
393 2013-07-26 07:41:58 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: that letter sounded like a perfect example of how technology can easily outpace legal theory. Heck, I just wrote a design for a crypto-coin where the only way to create coins is to commit fraud the other day, what does that even mean legally?
394 2013-07-26 07:41:58 <bitnumus> useless.
395 2013-07-26 07:42:11 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: O.o
396 2013-07-26 07:42:23 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, good luck convincing state regulators that bitcoin exchanges aren't money transmitters when FINCEN has said quite clearly that they are
397 2013-07-26 07:42:48 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, is mr murck going to personally defend anybody who relies on his statement of fact?
398 2013-07-26 07:42:52 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: It's simple: you do non-interactive probabalistic auditing of tx's in the block, and getting away with fraud is effectively a proof-of-work algorithm, setting the inflation rate.
399 2013-07-26 07:42:52 <phantomcircuit> im thinking no
400 2013-07-26 07:43:02 <gavinandresen> wait, who just said that programmers shouldn't assume lawyers speak the same language?
401 2013-07-26 07:43:19 <petertodd> gavinandresen: me
402 2013-07-26 07:43:33 <gavinandresen> cool. phantomcircuit: listen to petertodd
403 2013-07-26 07:44:00 <gavinandresen> I, personally, don't know nuthin about the difference between state and federal legal definitions.
404 2013-07-26 07:44:11 <Luke-Jr> really, none of us here are lawyers <.<
405 2013-07-26 07:44:45 <phantomcircuit> haha
406 2013-07-26 07:44:46 <phantomcircuit> ok
407 2013-07-26 07:45:06 <phantomcircuit> sure i'll just ignore the attorney offering legal advice to the entire world which is at best questionable
408 2013-07-26 07:45:15 <phantomcircuit> why not
409 2013-07-26 07:45:31 <gavinandresen> find an attorney you trust and then follow their advice.
410 2013-07-26 07:45:33 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: "I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice." <- every lawyer ever
411 2013-07-26 07:45:41 <gavinandresen> ... and hope you trusted the right attorney.
412 2013-07-26 07:45:46 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, except mr murck
413 2013-07-26 07:46:06 <petertodd> of course, attornies tend to give you answers that are "You probably shouldn't do that." for just about everything...
414 2013-07-26 07:46:09 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, i have yet to see him say that anywhere
415 2013-07-26 07:46:24 <gavinandresen> the c&d response wasn't written by mr. murck, by the way.
416 2013-07-26 07:46:41 <gavinandresen> ... and I know you have some bad history with him, so....
417 2013-07-26 07:47:00 <phantomcircuit> only in the most vague way
418 2013-07-26 07:47:16 <phantomcircuit> the biggest thing i got out of that interaction was that he has no idea what he's doing...
419 2013-07-26 07:47:35 <midnightmagic> petertodd: My lawyer doesn't say that. He says things more in the form of warnings and estimations of risk.
420 2013-07-26 07:47:50 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, hey you have a good lawyer :)
421 2013-07-26 07:47:56 <bitnumus> ;;tblb 1hr 4min
422 2013-07-26 07:47:57 <gribble> Error: '1hr' is not a valid positive integer.
423 2013-07-26 07:48:04 <bitnumus> how does that command work again :P
424 2013-07-26 07:48:22 <petertodd> midnightmagic: good for him, life is about risk and unknowns anyway
425 2013-07-26 07:48:27 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
426 2013-07-26 07:48:33 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, if you'd like to go that route then you might want to look at my analysis of coinlab prior to their decision to just sue
427 2013-07-26 07:48:33 <petertodd> midnightmagic: but my other hobby is cave explorations so...
428 2013-07-26 07:49:04 <midnightmagic> lol petertodd: Okay admit it, you're Ted.
429 2013-07-26 07:49:58 <petertodd> midnightmagic: yeah... because I actually do that stuff, I hate reading scary stories about it...
430 2013-07-26 07:50:36 <bitnumus> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour, 6 minutes, and 0 seconds to generate is 1 week, 0 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes, and 46 seconds
431 2013-07-26 07:50:39 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: ah thanks, i'll tell him that. he's a criminal defence attorney usually but he likes talking to me because I bring him weird things to think about.
432 2013-07-26 07:50:45 <bitnumus> this has happened like 4 times over the past 2days
433 2013-07-26 07:50:49 <bitnumus> very unlucky ?
434 2013-07-26 07:50:54 <petertodd> bitnumus: yes, try litecoin
435 2013-07-26 07:50:59 <midnightmagic> petertodd: :) good heavens don't tell the lurkers your deepest darkest fears man. :)
436 2013-07-26 07:51:23 <bitnumus> petertodd, that sucks also
437 2013-07-26 07:51:31 <petertodd> midnightmagic: heh, literally deepest...
438 2013-07-26 07:51:36 <midnightmagic> hehe
439 2013-07-26 07:52:28 <petertodd> bitnumus: inputs.io/easywallet
440 2013-07-26 07:53:25 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, is there any chance you'd be willing to part with clearcoin.com?
441 2013-07-26 07:54:21 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
442 2013-07-26 07:55:33 random_cat has joined
443 2013-07-26 07:57:30 <TD> good morning
444 2013-07-26 07:58:47 <petertodd> evening
445 2013-07-26 08:00:43 t7 has joined
446 2013-07-26 08:02:05 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
447 2013-07-26 08:04:40 <petertodd> TD: what was alp's original script-based oracle proposal he talked to you about?
448 2013-07-26 08:05:15 <TD> honestly i sort of lost track of exactly what he was planning to do. originally he was just going to implement the scheme i proposed on the wiki. then he came up with a much more restricted expression language, then he wrote the forum post which i only skimmed
449 2013-07-26 08:05:23 <TD> i'm hoping he will just figure it out and produce something useful
450 2013-07-26 08:05:55 <petertodd> Ah, I was hoping he'd come up with another script way to do it - I pointed him to the nonce-based way.
451 2013-07-26 08:07:53 <bitnumus> so a 1hour 6min block, now its 20minutes already
452 2013-07-26 08:08:03 <bitnumus> how to calculate the probability of this? or is that what tblb does?
453 2013-07-26 08:08:11 paracyst has quit ()
454 2013-07-26 08:08:12 <petertodd> bitnumus: give it up, sometimes you get unlucky
455 2013-07-26 08:08:23 <bitnumus> no...
456 2013-07-26 08:08:29 <bitnumus> https://iwilcox.me.uk/v/block-interval-distribution
457 2013-07-26 08:08:40 <TD> well, i suggested he use javascript for the expression language
458 2013-07-26 08:08:42 <bitnumus> i want to know :)
459 2013-07-26 08:09:13 <iwilcox> That graph is old, but I'll make a new one soon.
460 2013-07-26 08:10:04 <bitnumus> do a 1week one to make sure i'm not tripping
461 2013-07-26 08:10:14 <petertodd> TD: yeah, I was encouraging him to stick to binary true-false stuff first
462 2013-07-26 08:10:34 * petertodd wishes bitcoin had "checksig-of-data" opcodes
463 2013-07-26 08:11:22 <TD> yeah. it was kind of a bogus decision to not split it into OP_SIGHASH and OP_CHECKSIG
464 2013-07-26 08:11:26 saulimus has joined
465 2013-07-26 08:11:32 RoboTeddy has joined
466 2013-07-26 08:11:33 <TD> oh well. hindsight is 20:20. the fact there's a scripting language at all is pretty amazing
467 2013-07-26 08:11:34 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
468 2013-07-26 08:11:40 <petertodd> indeed
469 2013-07-26 08:11:41 <TD> so i can forgive satoshi for not getting it quite right the first time
470 2013-07-26 08:11:47 RoboTeddy has joined
471 2013-07-26 08:12:11 agnostic98 has joined
472 2013-07-26 08:12:12 <TD> i guess in the long run, we may end up moving towards a system based on functional encryption instead, or something equally star-trek
473 2013-07-26 08:12:30 <TD> my gut feeling is that script, even if it was more featureful, would have a limited lifespan before being replaced by something fundamentally better
474 2013-07-26 08:12:35 <petertodd> I'm trying to steer tiernolan to actually implementing op_depth or something, at least to give him a sense of how hard the problem is for all the designs he comes up with
475 2013-07-26 08:12:51 <TD> an FE based script upgrade is nice because you don't even need to upgrade any miners or clients
476 2013-07-26 08:12:54 <TD> not even a soft fork
477 2013-07-26 08:13:18 <petertodd> heh, on the other hand, it's magic...
478 2013-07-26 08:13:24 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
479 2013-07-26 08:13:33 <petertodd> how close are we to functioning functional enc libraries?
480 2013-07-26 08:13:48 HM has joined
481 2013-07-26 08:14:00 <TD> well, there are functioning ABE libraries. but then the policy is public. that's the same as script, of course
482 2013-07-26 08:14:01 <nsh> enc?
483 2013-07-26 08:14:15 <TD> the ABE library i saw only supported relatively simple boolean formulas
484 2013-07-26 08:14:39 <TD> but there are papers which extended ABE to arbitrary circuits, and now there's a paper that claims to have cracked the Holy Grail of full FE with an obfuscated circuit as the policy
485 2013-07-26 08:14:54 <TD> (with a succinct ciphertext size, no less)
486 2013-07-26 08:14:59 <TD> but i doubt it's implementable just yet
487 2013-07-26 08:15:18 <petertodd> huh, what's the strategy to use that with existing signature/pubkeys?
488 2013-07-26 08:15:57 <TD> you do a regular send to pubkey as normal, and attach the private key encrypted under your arbitrary program (circuit). perhaps you could stuff that program into the tx as well, or just attach it out of band
489 2013-07-26 08:16:07 <TD> then you satisfy the program by feeding it the appropriate inputs and it spits out the private key
490 2013-07-26 08:16:26 <TD> at the moment they can compile pure functions written in C-like languages to circuits with some reasonable degree of efficiency
491 2013-07-26 08:16:29 <petertodd> right, so no consensus problem
492 2013-07-26 08:16:41 <TD> indeed. the network only knows that the program was satisfied, but not how or what the program actually was
493 2013-07-26 08:16:47 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
494 2013-07-26 08:16:55 <Scrat> is this old news? http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-sha-extensions
495 2013-07-26 08:16:57 <TD> so it's a privacy upgrade as well. the downside is, you have to ensure the attached program doesn't get lost (if you don't embed it)
496 2013-07-26 08:17:01 Krellan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
497 2013-07-26 08:17:06 <TD> Scrat: no. i was pointed to that only yesterday.
498 2013-07-26 08:17:10 <petertodd> yeah, but that's true of a lot of protocols we've come up too
499 2013-07-26 08:17:14 Thepok has joined
500 2013-07-26 08:17:15 <petertodd> Scrat:it's uninteresting news
501 2013-07-26 08:18:39 <Scrat> yeah, even if it reaches gpu levels of efficiency (which it won't) it's still not good enough
502 2013-07-26 08:19:18 <petertodd> TD: so technically, you'd generally set the txout to be a 2-of-2 multisig actually, where one key can only be gotten by running the magic program
503 2013-07-26 08:19:34 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
504 2013-07-26 08:19:37 <petertodd> (otherwise the sender can take the coins back, requiring an intermediate tx)
505 2013-07-26 08:20:15 <TD> that's true.
506 2013-07-26 08:20:49 <TD> although then you've introduced a new problem, which is that the program can't impose interesting multi-ownership criteria again
507 2013-07-26 08:20:59 <TD> (unless every possible owner has the other private key)
508 2013-07-26 08:21:47 <petertodd> indeed, or it's a <magic-key> OP_CHECKSIG 1 <key>...<key> m OP_CHECKMULTISIG, which soon makes you wish for OP_MAST_EVAL anyway
509 2013-07-26 08:22:11 <TD> however. perhaps FE itself is the answer. the private key is invisible because it's encrypted into the FE circuit
510 2013-07-26 08:22:17 <TD> that's rather fundamental.
511 2013-07-26 08:22:34 maaku has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
512 2013-07-26 08:22:42 <petertodd> well, can you use the FE circuit to create the pubkey, never revealing the private key to anyone? smells like RSA UFO's...
513 2013-07-26 08:22:53 <TD> so perhaps instead of the creator of the program generating a private key directly, the program itself derives a private key by hashing with some pseudo-random data, or something. although i'm not sure if you can create a program that is a pure function, without knowing what's inside it :)
514 2013-07-26 08:22:58 <TD> not sure
515 2013-07-26 08:23:06 <petertodd> sounds like magic...
516 2013-07-26 08:23:08 <TD> as it's a pure function, i guess not. that would imply randomness which implies state.
517 2013-07-26 08:23:16 <petertodd> heck, SCIP isn't even that magical
518 2013-07-26 08:23:18 <TD> hmm
519 2013-07-26 08:24:47 Krellan has joined
520 2013-07-26 08:25:29 Neil_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
521 2013-07-26 08:25:31 <petertodd> IMO there's probably enough value to OP_BLOCKHEIGHT and OP_PREVBLOCKHASH to want to implement them, but it'd make more sense to do it on litecoin first
522 2013-07-26 08:25:39 <TD> i suppose in practice it's not that restrictive. you already need to interact with the multi-owning parties to get a pubkey in all existing protocols anyway
523 2013-07-26 08:25:44 <TD> it rarely seems to be an issue.
524 2013-07-26 08:25:53 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
525 2013-07-26 08:26:04 <petertodd> neither are likely to be easily implemented in FE's given the relatively large amount of data to prove them
526 2013-07-26 08:26:15 <petertodd> (for now)
527 2013-07-26 08:26:18 Neil_ has joined
528 2013-07-26 08:26:20 <Luke-Jr> http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/448 <-- local security issue with access to secure memory, across VM boundaries
529 2013-07-26 08:27:03 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: smartcards have advantages...
530 2013-07-26 08:27:56 <petertodd> never mind that they also have nasty issues with data withholding attacks...
531 2013-07-26 08:27:57 <TD> well, FE is not quite the same thing as provable computation
532 2013-07-26 08:28:10 <TD> this is the one i mean - http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/451.pdf
533 2013-07-26 08:28:27 <TD> they claim the ciphertexts are small(ish)
534 2013-07-26 08:28:32 <petertodd> ah, that's even less useful :)
535 2013-07-26 08:28:34 <TD> not sure if that includes the program though. probably not.
536 2013-07-26 08:28:41 <phantomcircuit> TD, relative to what...
537 2013-07-26 08:28:54 <TD> they mean the ciphertext is proportional to the size of what you encrypt.
538 2013-07-26 08:29:04 <TD> and not, for example, proportional in size to the program that controls the decryption
539 2013-07-26 08:29:28 <TD> "In fact, if the right combination of public key encryption
540 2013-07-26 08:29:28 <TD> and NIZK is used the ciphertext size and encryption time can be considered small in a practical sense"
541 2013-07-26 08:29:42 <petertodd> ok, so essentially a circuit in this context can do things like compute "valid signature from pubkeys a,b,c and that meets threshold"?
542 2013-07-26 08:29:50 <petertodd> *compute things like
543 2013-07-26 08:30:12 <TD> yes. in theory it can do anything you could express in a restricted subset of C, one that doesn't have any memory or IO :)
544 2013-07-26 08:30:30 <TD> any arbitrary function, more or less
545 2013-07-26 08:30:53 yubrew_ has joined
546 2013-07-26 08:30:58 <TD> at the moment you actually would have to provide a complete ECDSA implementation to do that, which is by the standards of modern crypto a very large function.
547 2013-07-26 08:31:10 <TD> but they're working on improving its efficiency for the case of embedded crypto primitives specifically
548 2013-07-26 08:31:34 <TD> i have all kinds of use cases in mind for this new field of cryptography
549 2013-07-26 08:31:35 <petertodd> quite literally a digital circuit is the model then
550 2013-07-26 08:31:48 <TD> yeah. that's why it's called a circuit. you compile a program down to NOT, AND, OR, XOR gates
551 2013-07-26 08:31:54 <TD> with "wires" between them
552 2013-07-26 08:31:58 <TD> represented as tables of keys.
553 2013-07-26 08:32:03 <petertodd> I can see the application to oracle stuff for sure, among other things
554 2013-07-26 08:32:04 <TD> + lots of tricks of course. XOR gates can be made free.
555 2013-07-26 08:32:30 <TD> one idea i had the other day ..... why does end-to-end crypto suck? because of identity. people operate in terms of faces, names, a handful of personal attributes like rough age, where in the world someone is from, etc
556 2013-07-26 08:32:35 <TD> computers use long random numbers.
557 2013-07-26 08:32:50 <TD> jumping that enormous gap and falling into it, is why the web of trust kind of sucks
558 2013-07-26 08:33:14 <petertodd> heh, so you want a set of trusted oracles for those attributes, and then you can encrypt to someone with the attributes
559 2013-07-26 08:33:19 <TD> now consider the e-Passports everyone is being issued with. it's a certificate that contains "things that people recognize" like names, faces, dates of birth, etc
560 2013-07-26 08:33:34 <petertodd> er, maybe better to say trusted PKI
561 2013-07-26 08:34:08 <TD> so you could grab that data with an NFC smartphone, run it through a provable computation that takes the cert chain as input along with a public key, verifies the chain and then spits out a subset of your passport data+key+proof
562 2013-07-26 08:34:25 <nsh> .w 653/4
563 2013-07-26 08:34:26 <TD> upload that to a keyserver and now anyone can do a facebook style search to locate your key, and have a very strong assurance they're encrypting to the person they think they are
564 2013-07-26 08:34:32 <TD> (modulo having your passport stolen)
565 2013-07-26 08:35:00 <TD> even governments would find that hard to attack, because if they inserted a fake record into the database, the real user could upload a duplicate using their real passport and you'd observe that the system was broken
566 2013-07-26 08:35:20 <TD> and yes - you can go even further. the Eigenfaces algorithm is a pure function of an input image. so you can theoretically include a face recognition algorithm into your functional encryption key.
567 2013-07-26 08:35:22 <petertodd> indeed, which is why governments wouldn't ever allow that to be implemented...
568 2013-07-26 08:35:31 <petertodd> ha, that would be awesome
569 2013-07-26 08:35:35 <TD> then encrypt any data to a face. not very useful given that you broadcast your face everywhere you go :)
570 2013-07-26 08:35:43 <TD> but neat to think about
571 2013-07-26 08:35:48 <TD> ah, well, the fun thing is - governments can't stop it
572 2013-07-26 08:35:49 <petertodd> I'll encrypt my data to my... never mind
573 2013-07-26 08:35:51 <TD> they already issued the certs
574 2013-07-26 08:35:58 <TD> i mean, they could stop it by imprisoning anyone who used it
575 2013-07-26 08:36:04 <TD> but they'd have to write an explicit law to forbid it
576 2013-07-26 08:36:55 <petertodd> that's the thing though, they can just issue stacks of these duplicates, and maintain a secret database of the ones that are real or not
577 2013-07-26 08:37:14 <petertodd> not a problem from their point of view
578 2013-07-26 08:37:18 <TD> well, yeah, so it's a DoS at that point. if you see two entries in the database with different public keys, and one isn't signed by the other, then you stop
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580 2013-07-26 08:37:51 <TD> governments tend to act through laws rather than weird dos attacks though.
581 2013-07-26 08:37:52 <TD> also
582 2013-07-26 08:37:56 <petertodd> yeah... I mean, it's nice to force their hand, but it's also good to recognize they have the option
583 2013-07-26 08:37:57 <TD> you don't necessarily need a keyserver
584 2013-07-26 08:38:12 <TD> generate the proof cert, and now broadcast it everywhere you go using bluetooth low energy
585 2013-07-26 08:38:21 <petertodd> for instance police evidence systems often have "secure timestamps" that are delibrately designed in a way that "trusted administrators" can tamper with them
586 2013-07-26 08:38:23 <TD> if you walk into a room with someone, you can walk out and send them an encrypted message
587 2013-07-26 08:38:28 <TD> no user interaction or key swaps needed
588 2013-07-26 08:38:59 <TD> it doesn't help if you want to send someone a message because you saw them in a youtube video, but if you do viral spread of such databases, it might be useful
589 2013-07-26 08:39:01 <petertodd> yeah, we need more systems like that
590 2013-07-26 08:39:19 <petertodd> freenet people were talking about some yubikey scheme that sounded like that
591 2013-07-26 08:39:48 <petertodd> and they want freenet clients on android, which sounds like they're thinking of doing physical data transfer as part of the darknet
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594 2013-07-26 08:42:41 <petertodd> hmm... can bluetooth do opportunistic phone-to-phone connections without significant battery life impact?
595 2013-07-26 08:43:09 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, any use of bluetooth at all has significant battery life impact :/
596 2013-07-26 08:43:10 taha has joined
597 2013-07-26 08:43:59 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: too bad, I was hoping for a low-power tens of foot range beacon service - use it to transfer block headers
598 2013-07-26 08:45:06 <nsh> lol
599 2013-07-26 08:45:16 <nsh> morsecoin
600 2013-07-26 08:45:45 <petertodd> it's one of those beautiful ideas that's sadly not as useful as it should be :)
601 2013-07-26 08:46:38 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, heh
602 2013-07-26 08:46:39 <petertodd> I'll bet you there is enough population density in most countries to get width/100km/hr latencies if everyone had such gadgets on their phones
603 2013-07-26 08:47:16 <TD> bluetooth 4 (a.k.a. low energy) is not normal bluetooth
604 2013-07-26 08:47:30 <petertodd> interesting...
605 2013-07-26 08:47:31 <TD> support for it was just announced yesterday in android. i think iphone supported it for a while
606 2013-07-26 08:47:39 <phantomcircuit> iirc gmaxwell had a plan to broadcast blockchain info over ham radio
607 2013-07-26 08:47:43 <iwilcox> Bluetooth is pretty efficient to leave on, but guzzles battery when actually used, so if you're moving any significant data Wifi usually works out cheaper in battery life
608 2013-07-26 08:47:43 <TD> at the radio level it's actually an entirely different protocol, and just shares the branding
609 2013-07-26 08:47:51 <petertodd> TD: hardware or software?
610 2013-07-26 08:48:10 <petertodd> iwilcox: well we're talking just a few MiB of data a year
611 2013-07-26 08:48:12 <TD> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy
612 2013-07-26 08:48:15 coingenuity has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
613 2013-07-26 08:48:24 <TD> The Bluetooth low energy protocol is not backward compatible with the previous (often called 'Classic') Bluetooth protocol. The Bluetooth 4.0 specification permits devices to implement either, or both, of the LE and Classic systems. Those that implement both are known as Bluetooth 4.0 dual-mode devices.[3]
614 2013-07-26 08:48:24 <TD> Bluetooth LE uses the same 2.4 GHz ISM band radio frequencies as Classic Bluetooth, which allows dual-mode devices to share a single radio antenna. LE does, however, use a simpler modulation system.
615 2013-07-26 08:49:04 <iwilcox> petertodd: OK, next problem is that you can't allow only a specific protocol (that's a software stack limitation, but still a practical one)
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617 2013-07-26 08:49:12 <petertodd> damn, 100m range!
618 2013-07-26 08:49:36 <iwilcox> So you'd have to leave your Bluetooth on-and-accepting-anything, or off.
619 2013-07-26 08:49:36 <petertodd> iwilcox: that's frustrating
620 2013-07-26 08:50:19 jaekwon has joined
621 2013-07-26 08:50:25 <iwilcox> Maybe in ten years it'll be a standard feature. ;)
622 2013-07-26 08:50:50 <petertodd> heh, yeah... oh well, got better stuff to do in the near term :)
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625 2013-07-26 08:52:43 <petertodd> kinda sad too how utterly dependent this stuff is on strict majority hashing power - semi-proof-of-stake, and proof-of-sacrifice has a lot of really good properties, but the min data goes up so fast
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628 2013-07-26 08:55:28 <petertodd> IE in theory the cost to 51% attack a coin should be related to the value of the UTXO set, but schemes like that mean you have to validate blocks against that set...
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686 2013-07-26 11:59:53 <CodeShark> did the getheaders message not have a version field a while ago?
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704 2013-07-26 12:18:20 <sipa> CodeShark: the only recent protocol changes i know of are the nonce in ping, and the bloom filter related stuff
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714 2013-07-26 12:27:40 <t7> can anyone recommend me a C++ maths library that can do bignums, prime generation, modular arithmetic? im using openssl at the moment but its not C++ and its a bit awkward
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727 2013-07-26 12:54:03 <CodeShark> t7: have you tried GMP?
728 2013-07-26 12:54:15 <CodeShark> it's C, but nonetheless
729 2013-07-26 12:54:30 Thepok has joined
730 2013-07-26 12:54:35 <CodeShark> it has a cleaner API and is much faster than OpenSSL
731 2013-07-26 12:55:08 <c0rw1n> that's the GNU lib yes?
732 2013-07-26 12:55:15 <CodeShark> yes
733 2013-07-26 12:55:44 <t7> i might just have a go at writing my own
734 2013-07-26 12:55:53 <c0rw1n> i only heard good things about GMP as far as i can remember
735 2013-07-26 12:55:58 <t7> would be fun to have 0 dependencies except std lib
736 2013-07-26 12:56:10 <CodeShark> hehe, I almost went that route a few months back, t7
737 2013-07-26 12:56:36 <CodeShark> multiprecision arithmetic is an interesting subject
738 2013-07-26 12:57:44 <sipa> GMP also has a nice and pretty efficient C++ wrapper
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746 2013-07-26 13:05:04 <t7> "With C++11 compilers, integers can be constructed with the syntax 123_mpz which is equivalent to mpz_class("123")"
747 2013-07-26 13:05:17 <t7> thats the first time i have seen that new syntax used in real life
748 2013-07-26 13:06:04 <c0rw1n> yay, more syntactic diabetes
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756 2013-07-26 13:21:42 <jgarzik> mornin'
757 2013-07-26 13:22:26 <CodeShark> C++11 supports arbitrary precision ints? :)
758 2013-07-26 13:22:36 <sipa> no, GMP++ does
759 2013-07-26 13:27:08 <t7> how do these bigint libs do power functions?
760 2013-07-26 13:27:10 <TD> hmm, seems like android 4.3 supports binding keys to a TPM like chip
761 2013-07-26 13:27:15 <TD> when the phone has one
762 2013-07-26 13:28:07 <sipa> t7: intelligently
763 2013-07-26 13:28:23 <t7> not recursive mul then :)
764 2013-07-26 13:28:43 <t7> repeated*
765 2013-07-26 13:29:54 <TD> that sounds like a useful feature to transparently enable
766 2013-07-26 13:30:11 <t7> GMP uses 'limb' sizes of machine word size
767 2013-07-26 13:30:29 <t7> how does it even do addition and multiplication without overflowing these limbs ?
768 2013-07-26 13:31:53 <c0rw1n> overflow flag?
769 2013-07-26 13:32:07 <t7> yeah but its not standard C(++)
770 2013-07-26 13:32:21 <c0rw1n> could be software coded in the lib
771 2013-07-26 13:32:29 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Nap time)
772 2013-07-26 13:32:32 <TD> actually, no, never mind. there's no point.
773 2013-07-26 13:32:44 Lolcust has joined
774 2013-07-26 13:33:09 <sipa> t7: it has assembly-otpimized code for doing multi-limb math
775 2013-07-26 13:33:20 <sipa> t7: and there are always software (C) workarounds
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797 2013-07-26 14:21:54 <iwilcox> If I'm walking the chain using RPC is it more efficient to walk backwards with getblock <hash> starting with the latest hash, or getblockhash <index>?
798 2013-07-26 14:22:22 <iwilcox> And if I'm using getblockhash <index> does it matter which way I walk?
799 2013-07-26 14:22:52 <sipa> if you just need the block hashes, getblockhash is definitely faster
800 2013-07-26 14:23:00 <iwilcox> And then just follow it back?
801 2013-07-26 14:23:15 bmcgee has joined
802 2013-07-26 14:23:16 <sipa> as the headers are kept in memory
803 2013-07-26 14:23:25 <sipa> and getblock needs to read the full block from disk
804 2013-07-26 14:23:40 <iwilcox> So just keep doing getblock, recurse using previousblockhash?
805 2013-07-26 14:23:54 <sipa> what data do you need?
806 2013-07-26 14:24:44 <iwilcox> I'm just grabbing each block's timestamp and plotting a pretty graph of the inter-block time (and doing a chi-squared on the latest week, with a p-value, to brandish at people who say "blocks are really slooooow this week")
807 2013-07-26 14:24:45 <CodeShark> you can just increment the height and walk that way
808 2013-07-26 14:25:18 <jgarzik> getblock could be updated to return only header, and not touch disk
809 2013-07-26 14:25:44 <sipa> jgarzik: yeah
810 2013-07-26 14:25:50 <sipa> i'll add that to headers-first :)
811 2013-07-26 14:26:03 <jgarzik> cool
812 2013-07-26 14:26:26 <iwilcox> Y'mean give getblock a parameter, justheader or something?
813 2013-07-26 14:26:31 <sipa> i already have a getblockheader that gives the header in base64
814 2013-07-26 14:26:41 <sipa> might just add a bool to make it decode it into json
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819 2013-07-26 14:29:18 <CodeShark> yeah, a getblockheader RPC command would be nice
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821 2013-07-26 14:29:29 <CodeShark> and simple to do :)
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823 2013-07-26 14:30:16 <CodeShark> what's with the base64? where else have we used that?
824 2013-07-26 14:30:49 <CodeShark> as far as I know everything is either hex or base58
825 2013-07-26 14:31:45 <sipa> hex is fine for me as well
826 2013-07-26 14:32:05 <sipa> but afaik the only place where serialized block headers are used is https://twitter.com/blockheaders, which uses base64 :p
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828 2013-07-26 14:35:09 <t7> intel sha instructions :O
829 2013-07-26 14:36:57 <jgarzik> t7, exciting, from a won't-impact-bitcoin-much perspective :)
830 2013-07-26 14:38:09 <t7> too slow?
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834 2013-07-26 14:46:35 <phantomcircuit> iwilcox, it's most efficient to add a getblockhashes rpc call
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836 2013-07-26 14:46:46 <phantomcircuit> the overhead of making 200k+ rpc calls is hilarious
837 2013-07-26 14:47:47 <CodeShark> or just make a single getheaders call via p2p :)
838 2013-07-26 14:48:57 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, sounds like effort
839 2013-07-26 14:49:09 <CodeShark> https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses/blob/master/examples/listener2/listener2.cpp
840 2013-07-26 14:49:18 <CodeShark> feel free to use that
841 2013-07-26 14:49:23 <phantomcircuit> im all for adding tons of rpc calls just because the overhead of json rpc is enormous
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843 2013-07-26 14:50:32 <CodeShark> I'm working on a higher level streaming protocol
844 2013-07-26 14:50:40 <CodeShark> than p2p
845 2013-07-26 14:50:55 <CodeShark> because the rpc just won't cut it for serious hackery
846 2013-07-26 14:51:05 <CodeShark> and the p2p is too low-level for most application development
847 2013-07-26 14:51:06 <iwilcox> phantomcircuit: I was only really asking because it'll run on a Raspberry Pi :) Overall speed doesn't /really/ matter for this.
848 2013-07-26 14:51:52 <phantomcircuit> iwilcox, it'll seriously take days to make that many rpc calls
849 2013-07-26 14:52:01 <sipa> lol
850 2013-07-26 14:52:31 <iwilcox> Nah, a couple of hours last time.
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852 2013-07-26 14:53:23 <iwilcox> What I have found though is that I get unpredictable RPC failures (using Perl's JSON stuff, sometimes I get just "undef" back, not even a result=error)
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854 2013-07-26 14:53:59 <CodeShark> try calling it directly via curl or something
855 2013-07-26 14:54:06 <sipa> you can sync all headers via getheaders over p2p, a few hundred km from the peer, in less than a minute :)
856 2013-07-26 14:54:12 <CodeShark> make sure it's the perl parser and not bitcoind itself
857 2013-07-26 14:55:29 <phantomcircuit> iwilcox, there's a few things to consider, if you're using keep-alive then you'll see a ~10x improvement plus you wont randomly run out of source ports due to TIME_WAIT, if you're using keep-alive you'll randomly get back nothing since the connection dies in bizarre ways
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859 2013-07-26 14:55:32 <CodeShark> also, the RPC behaves differently when called via CLI and when called via HTTP
860 2013-07-26 14:55:42 <sipa> ...?
861 2013-07-26 14:55:43 <iwilcox> sipa: Perhaps, but there's not a readily available layer over that API in any language I'm fluent in.
862 2013-07-26 14:55:45 <CodeShark> the output is formatted completely differently
863 2013-07-26 14:56:04 <sipa> that's like saying that webpages look different from HTML code...
864 2013-07-26 14:56:13 <phantomcircuit> iwilcox, also if you expect to be making 8 concurrent requests make sure there are 9 rpcthreads, for some reason there seems to be a deadlock if you make concurrent requests that block all the rpcthreads
865 2013-07-26 14:56:48 <CodeShark> iwilcox, there really isn't a thick layer between the JSON-RPC and whatever high level language you're using
866 2013-07-26 14:56:59 <iwilcox> Nah, it's a single thread making the request
867 2013-07-26 14:57:19 avarab is now known as avar
868 2013-07-26 14:58:35 <iwilcox> CodeShark: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list is all I know about.
869 2013-07-26 14:58:56 <iwilcox> If there's another API that's JSON-RPC but not there, do tell. (I don't see getheaders there, for instance)
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871 2013-07-26 14:59:28 <CodeShark> no, getheaders is p2p
872 2013-07-26 14:59:40 <CodeShark> but it is by far the fastest way to accomplish what you're doing (performancewise)
873 2013-07-26 14:59:55 <sipa> you can also do this:
874 2013-07-26 15:00:00 <iwilcox> Understood, but how do I access it from e.g. Perl?
875 2013-07-26 15:00:02 <sipa> curl bitcoin.sipa.be/blocks.txt
876 2013-07-26 15:00:03 <phantomcircuit> like i said
877 2013-07-26 15:00:17 <phantomcircuit> by far the fastest way is to write an rpc function which does exactly what you want
878 2013-07-26 15:00:40 <CodeShark> actually, phantomcircuit is correct
879 2013-07-26 15:00:51 <t7> inb4 that crashes my firefox
880 2013-07-26 15:01:01 <iwilcox> phantomcircuit: Sounds like sipa plans to add just such a call in the near future anyway.
881 2013-07-26 15:01:44 <t7> as you scroll down the difficulty increases :3
882 2013-07-26 15:01:47 <sipa> not one to get *all* headers
883 2013-07-26 15:02:00 <sipa> that just doesn't fit in an RPC response
884 2013-07-26 15:02:34 <CodeShark> iwilcox, you should probably not think about accessing RPC in terms of programming languages like perl or python but think of it in terms of protocols like HTTP and JSON-RPC
885 2013-07-26 15:03:12 <CodeShark> once you speak these protocols you can access it from any language
886 2013-07-26 15:03:24 <iwilcox> Meh.
887 2013-07-26 15:03:38 <sipa> guys
888 2013-07-26 15:03:43 <sipa> you're jumping the shark
889 2013-07-26 15:03:53 <CodeShark> the CodeShark?
890 2013-07-26 15:03:57 <iwilcox> Yeah, I think this is getting silly :)
891 2013-07-26 15:03:57 <Ry4an> :)
892 2013-07-26 15:04:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, actually i bet you could fit all the headers into a single rpc response, it would just be a monster
893 2013-07-26 15:05:00 <phantomcircuit> i know you can fit a map of the blockheight -> hash for all the blocks
894 2013-07-26 15:05:03 <iwilcox> It's not performance-critical, it's a toy. bitcoin.sipa.be/blocks.txt has exactly what I'm after, but I don't want to poll that. I'll just grab the first lot over a couple of hours on the laptop and grab the rest with -blocknotify
895 2013-07-26 15:05:22 <sipa> he just wants access to the block headers, and by far the easiest way right now is RPCs; it certainly isn't fast or efficient or optimal, but it will work sooner than implementing an own RPC command for him!
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898 2013-07-26 15:05:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's actually really easy to implement your own rpc commands but ok :)
899 2013-07-26 15:06:09 <CodeShark> still nice to learn new, more powerful techniques from time to time rather than getting stuck with the familiar, though
900 2013-07-26 15:06:10 <sipa> phantomcircuit: you're preaching to the choir
901 2013-07-26 15:06:36 <sipa> i'm sure it's easy for you (and it is for me), but if you're not familiar with the codebase, that's a ridiculous suggestion
902 2013-07-26 15:06:55 <sipa> sure, if you want to learn something, go do that
903 2013-07-26 15:06:57 <iwilcox> I'm very not familiar, and have no burning need to be :)
904 2013-07-26 15:07:08 abrkn\ has quit (Client Quit)
905 2013-07-26 15:07:43 <iwilcox> CodeShark: If there were *no* other way of doing what I want, I'd dive in.
906 2013-07-26 15:08:03 <CodeShark> the fastest way to get this done is by adding your own RPC method...assuming you've already added a few RPC methods in the past and understand the core structures
907 2013-07-26 15:08:12 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
908 2013-07-26 15:08:13 <CodeShark> otherwise, it isn't :p
909 2013-07-26 15:08:28 <sipa> iwilcox: by the way, blocks.txt is actually generated using a perl script...
910 2013-07-26 15:08:43 * iwilcox invokes http://xkcd.com/974/
911 2013-07-26 15:08:54 <iwilcox> What's the fourth column?
912 2013-07-26 15:09:08 maaku has joined
913 2013-07-26 15:09:15 <iwilcox> Wait, fifth. (fourth is difficulty, right?)
914 2013-07-26 15:09:31 maaku is now known as Guest75166
915 2013-07-26 15:09:44 <sipa> height, hash, time, difficulty, txcount
916 2013-07-26 15:09:50 <iwilcox> Ah, ta.
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920 2013-07-26 15:13:06 <iwilcox> What's the biggest reorg I should expect to see?
921 2013-07-26 15:13:12 <iwilcox> (depth)
922 2013-07-26 15:13:55 <iwilcox> ISTR there's a threshold where the client won't switch and just curls up in the corner and rocks and whimpers?
923 2013-07-26 15:14:25 <sipa> the last checkpoint
924 2013-07-26 15:15:00 <t7> iwilcox: who waits 20 mins before repeating the question... they are both as mad as each other
925 2013-07-26 15:15:49 Neozonz has joined
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927 2013-07-26 15:17:18 <iwilcox> t7: You've lost me.
928 2013-07-26 15:17:33 <iwilcox> sipa: Ta.
929 2013-07-26 15:17:46 <t7> the xkcd comic
930 2013-07-26 15:18:11 <iwilcox> Ah.
931 2013-07-26 15:19:00 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
932 2013-07-26 15:21:18 <iwilcox> t7: rmunroe lurks in #bitcoin y'know.
933 2013-07-26 15:21:26 <iwilcox> You could tell him yourself :)
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935 2013-07-26 15:23:25 <phantomcircuit> sipa, idiomatic answer is idiomatic
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953 2013-07-26 15:36:45 <iwilcox> New stupid question: gmaxwell outlines an offline signing in his https://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt but manually chooses inputs. Is there any way to get bitcoind to do the heavy lifting there, and tell you what UTXOs it'd choose, and how much of each it'd spend?
954 2013-07-26 15:37:04 <iwilcox> Besides "use Armory" :)
955 2013-07-26 15:37:27 <sipa> listunspent ?
956 2013-07-26 15:37:36 imton has quit (Client Quit)
957 2013-07-26 15:37:42 <iwilcox> Yeah, but I mean the stuff it does to avoid dust.
958 2013-07-26 15:38:01 <iwilcox> And choosing older UTXOs in preference to newer. That kinda stuff.
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962 2013-07-26 15:41:05 <sipa> afaik there is no RPC to do that
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969 2013-07-26 15:54:46 <phantomcircuit> iwilcox, it should be fairly easy to do better than the logic bitcoind uses actually, just identify some way to score your selection and randomly arrange them until you have something acceptable
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971 2013-07-26 15:56:21 <sipa> the bitcoind one is moderately complex, but certainly not optimal
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995 2013-07-26 16:35:47 <iwilcox> Thanks
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1006 2013-07-26 17:14:51 <tonikt> Hi guys. If you don't mind I have a question about how a P2SH part of VerifyScript works...
1007 2013-07-26 17:14:57 <tonikt> So there is this line:
1008 2013-07-26 17:15:02 <tonikt> const valtype& pubKeySerialized = stackCopy.back();
1009 2013-07-26 17:15:39 <tonikt> and after executing it the pubKeySerialized contains (lets say) one byte: 0x50
1010 2013-07-26 17:16:04 <tonikt> how does it happen that after passing this line: popstack(stackCopy);
1011 2013-07-26 17:16:11 <tonikt> .. 50 turns into 0A
1012 2013-07-26 17:16:13 <tonikt> ?
1013 2013-07-26 17:16:31 <tonikt> Either I am stupid or it is some crazy back magic :)
1014 2013-07-26 17:16:49 btcera has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1015 2013-07-26 17:17:55 <tonikt> I'm asking because I'd like to replicate the same behavior in my s/w, but since I cannot find an original code that does the conversion - I dont know what to do :)
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1026 2013-07-26 17:31:17 <tonikt> well I guess P2SH is just another useless feature that I don't need to support ;P
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1028 2013-07-26 17:32:12 <tonikt> though, next time, maybe you could try writing a code that is readable - that would be so much helpful, since this code is the only bitcoin documentation
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1031 2013-07-26 17:36:57 <jgarzik> tonikt, txtool makes use of P2SH for all multi-sig transactions
1032 2013-07-26 17:37:16 <jgarzik> tonikt, so transactions like that will definitely be appearing more regularly in the upcoming months
1033 2013-07-26 17:37:55 <jgarzik> BitPay wants to roll out enterprise-ish solutions where multiple parties at a company each control their own set of keys, and must obtain multiple sign-offs to spend cold storage etc.
1034 2013-07-26 17:39:04 <tonikt> jgarzik: yeah, I'm still going to make it work, though I was hoping for some support from the competition
1035 2013-07-26 17:39:28 <tonikt> I just don't get this code, even though I've been coding C for like half of my life
1036 2013-07-26 17:40:01 <tonikt> where does it convert 50 into 0A? thats all I need to know
1037 2013-07-26 17:40:54 <jgarzik> tonikt, no idea, never seen such behavior
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1039 2013-07-26 17:41:48 <tonikt> I'm running the unit tests - that is the one:
1040 2013-07-26 17:41:57 <tonikt> ["0 0x01 0x50", "HASH160 0x14 0xece424a6bb6ddf4db592c0faed60685047a361b1 EQUAL", "OP_RESERVED in P2SH should fail"]
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1042 2013-07-26 17:42:12 <tonikt> it's supposed to be invalid
1043 2013-07-26 17:44:30 <kjj_> sadly, a half lifetime of C does not in any way prepare you for C++
1044 2013-07-26 17:44:53 <tonikt> kjj_: thats so true
1045 2013-07-26 17:45:00 <tonikt> C++ is such a mess
1046 2013-07-26 17:45:44 <tonikt> but you guys know this code
1047 2013-07-26 17:46:03 <tonikt> could you please tell me at least that the pubKeySerialized variable is used for?
1048 2013-07-26 17:46:30 <kjj_> looks like it is just used to fee pubKey2
1049 2013-07-26 17:46:50 <tonikt> so after pubKey2 is set, it does not matter anymore?
1050 2013-07-26 17:46:52 <kjj_> if I talk for long enough, you'll figure out on your own that I'm no expert here
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1052 2013-07-26 17:47:06 <tonikt> hmmm... then I was looking for a wrong mismatch
1053 2013-07-26 17:47:43 <tonikt> no, I dont need an expert - just some ideas, since I got stuck with this for like a 6ty hour already
1054 2013-07-26 17:48:24 <tonikt> but thatw as a good idea, thx - I will stop wondering why 50 gets converted to 0A - the problem must be something else
1055 2013-07-26 17:48:38 <kjj_> it looks to me like those lines are an elaborate cast from the stack into a CScript
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1059 2013-07-26 17:52:02 <tonikt> shit. I finally fixed it. thanks kjj!
1060 2013-07-26 17:52:26 Application has joined
1061 2013-07-26 17:52:44 <tonikt> I was just wasting my time trying to figure out why then content of pubKeySerialized was chenging after the stack has moved
1062 2013-07-26 17:52:52 <tonikt> I am stupid
1063 2013-07-26 17:52:54 <tonikt> :)
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1066 2013-07-26 17:55:05 <kjj_> cool
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1072 2013-07-26 18:03:00 <tonikt> ok - all the script_invalid.json and script_valid.json passes now. I still have some tx_invalid.json though
1073 2013-07-26 18:03:27 <tonikt> it seems that some of them just test for non-standard and not whether a tx is invalid for a bitcoin chain
1074 2013-07-26 18:04:04 <tonikt> but I'd like to ask for this specific one:
1075 2013-07-26 18:04:05 <tonikt> 010000000100010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000009085768617420697320ffffffff010000000000000000015100000000
1076 2013-07-26 18:04:18 <tonikt> with the input: "HASH160 0x14 0x7a052c840ba73af26755de42cf01cc9e0a49fef0 EQUAL"
1077 2013-07-26 18:04:32 <tonikt> is it invalid - or is it just non-standard?
1078 2013-07-26 18:06:29 <jgarzik> tonikt, non-standard is a property of relay policy
1079 2013-07-26 18:06:39 <jgarzik> tonikt, non-standard transactions have zero relevance _in the blockchain_
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1081 2013-07-26 18:06:55 <tonikt> jgarzik: yes, I know - that is why I dont care about not being compatible with them
1082 2013-07-26 18:07:16 <tonikt> but I do car for txs that are blockchain-invalid, though my client accepts them
1083 2013-07-26 18:07:19 <tonikt> thus my question
1084 2013-07-26 18:07:36 <jgarzik> tonikt, Not sure I understand. Nonstandard transactions are a subset of transactions that may be validated.
1085 2013-07-26 18:07:53 <jgarzik> tonikt, you must be compatible with non-standard transactions, if you are validating scripts
1086 2013-07-26 18:08:02 <jgarzik> otherwise, you're not validating everything.
1087 2013-07-26 18:08:28 <tonikt> but scripts can be either in a block or outside a block
1088 2013-07-26 18:08:38 <tonikt> if I only validate scripts from blocks.
1089 2013-07-26 18:08:53 <tonikt> why should I care about standard/non-standard?
1090 2013-07-26 18:09:15 <jgarzik> I agree, if you only look at blocks, you don't have to care about standard/non-standard
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1092 2013-07-26 18:09:54 <tonikt> jgarzik: so, the tx I quoted above - should it be accepted inside a block?
1093 2013-07-26 18:10:12 <tonikt> ... because my client does not see anything wrong with it
1094 2013-07-26 18:10:21 <tonikt> ... but it is a part of tx_invalid.json
1095 2013-07-26 18:11:35 <petertodd> jgarzik: +1 on enterprise solutions. What's the status on standards for multi-party transaction signing, IE like the BIP armory supports?
1096 2013-07-26 18:11:50 <jgarzik> petertodd, txtool can do multi-party today
1097 2013-07-26 18:11:51 <petertodd> jgarzik: It's come up in discussion around oracles lately too.
1098 2013-07-26 18:12:07 <jgarzik> petertodd, I don't yet support the BIP format, so just hex encoded binary ser, right now
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1100 2013-07-26 18:12:24 <jgarzik> I agree that ASCII armoring is a good idea
1101 2013-07-26 18:12:35 <petertodd> jgarzik: Ah ok, what are your thoughts there, heck, does the BIP look useful, or just concatenating raw hex tx's or what?
1102 2013-07-26 18:12:42 <tonikt> guys, never mind my last question
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1104 2013-07-26 18:14:09 <jgarzik> petertodd, no brain cycles spent evaluating that question yet ;p
1105 2013-07-26 18:14:20 <jgarzik> petertodd, but I'm about to, in another 2-3 weeks
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1107 2013-07-26 18:14:33 <tonikt> whoever wrote these test cases, god bless him! :) I found like almost 10 script parsing bugs, for the last 2 days
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1109 2013-07-26 18:15:58 <tonikt> petertodd: now you can try to break my client - I can pay you 1BTC for every case when it gets stuck on a block, because it rejected a valid tx :)
1110 2013-07-26 18:16:26 <tonikt> .. though by "valid" I mean "mined"
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1112 2013-07-26 18:21:54 <petertodd> jgarzik: Sounds good. Usecase would be to fund a P2SH address whose script is actually some crazy oracle evaluator, so if the UI was such that your wallet could say "Do you want to send nBTC to address P2SH if person foo sends mBTC" would be perfect.
1113 2013-07-26 18:22:22 <petertodd> jgarzik: Spending the script needs some more thought, but I think we can call that a different problem for now - funding it is the first problem.
1114 2013-07-26 18:23:10 <petertodd> (an oracle evaluator basically looks like HASH160 H(secret-nonce) EQUALVERIFY <pubkey> CHECKSIG and more complex variations)
1115 2013-07-26 18:23:40 <petertodd> (oracle releases secret-nonce when condition is met)
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1252 2013-07-26 22:27:28 <nsh> say i wanted to encrypt some data in such a way that it has a "countdown" after which, without any intervention, the key is somehow released
1253 2013-07-26 22:27:49 <nsh> is there any conceivable way to achieve this using Bitcoin?
1254 2013-07-26 22:29:10 <nsh> e.g. something depending on blockchain length, or a successful block with a certain difficulty, or the transaction chain of a certain length with a fixed origin
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1257 2013-07-26 22:29:32 <gmaxwell> thats called timelock encryption
1258 2013-07-26 22:29:38 <nsh> right
1259 2013-07-26 22:29:42 <gmaxwell> and you could achieve that with bitcoin only with a trusted oracle.
1260 2013-07-26 22:29:48 <nsh> hmm
1261 2013-07-26 22:30:01 <nsh> what is the role of the oracle and why is it strictly necessary?
1262 2013-07-26 22:30:11 <gmaxwell> e.g. some sealed computing device that gives you a public key and only gives you the private key after you show it a chunk of headers.
1263 2013-07-26 22:31:05 metabyte_ is now known as metabyte
1264 2013-07-26 22:31:30 <nsh> is there some way (with currently possible techniques) of making such an oracle: (a) independent of user intervention; (b) demonstrable (e.g. it can be shown that when the conditions-dependent-on-time are met, it will release the key) ?
1265 2013-07-26 22:31:51 Pengoo has quit (Excess Flood)
1266 2013-07-26 22:31:55 <nsh> s/e.g./ie/
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1270 2013-07-26 22:33:03 <nsh> what we have with bitcoin, as i understand it, is a consensuated clock for the first time
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1273 2013-07-26 22:33:54 <nsh> i was hoping that this can be used to create guarantees of future decryptability status
1274 2013-07-26 22:34:48 <nsh> oh right, you've mused on this in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
1275 2013-07-26 22:35:31 <nsh> hmm
1276 2013-07-26 22:35:46 <gmaxwell> yea, but a clock alone isn't enough for timelock crypto.. either the clock must have special form, or you need some kind of trustable computing substrate.
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1279 2013-07-26 22:36:27 <gmaxwell> the trustable computing substrate could be some kind of distributed system, for example. there are many possiblities there... but I don't think there is a way to do it without either changing the clock or having trustable computing
1280 2013-07-26 22:36:36 <nsh> hmm
1281 2013-07-26 22:36:48 <nsh> would SCIP suffice?
1282 2013-07-26 22:37:47 <nsh> heh, to whatever extent i vaguely had an idea of what SCIP meant a few weeks ago, it's now completely evaporated
1283 2013-07-26 22:38:31 <nsh> gmaxwell, can you elaborate on the special form of the clock?
1284 2013-07-26 22:39:13 * nsh thinks
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1287 2013-07-26 22:41:42 <petertodd> SCIP only proves that a computation was done honestly, it does not prove how long it took to do that computation
1288 2013-07-26 22:42:09 <gmaxwell> no, scip wouldn't... it doesn't keep secrets from its executor. you'd need secure group computation or a trusted oracle.
1289 2013-07-26 22:42:12 <petertodd> you may be able to have SCIP take a signed timestamp can decrypt it only if the time is greater than some value though
1290 2013-07-26 22:42:29 richcollins has joined
1291 2013-07-26 22:42:36 <petertodd> or what Mike was saying earlier about attribute based encryption stuff
1292 2013-07-26 22:42:40 <nsh> you can prove with SCIP that one of the inputs of the computation was a valid block header with a certain difficulty
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1294 2013-07-26 22:42:41 <gmaxwell> nsh: the alt ideas thing gives an example for special form of the clock.
1295 2013-07-26 22:43:07 <gmaxwell> nsh: sure but scip doesn't let prevent the person running it from running it again outside of scip and changing the operation.
1296 2013-07-26 22:43:18 <nsh> hm
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1298 2013-07-26 22:45:58 <nsh> i'm surprised google->"timelock encryption" is only a single page of results, and over half are bitcoin related
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1302 2013-07-26 22:51:14 <nsh> what you need is something like a binary search that can only progress at one step per block
1303 2013-07-26 22:51:35 <nsh> that way you know that there's a max time before the search space is divided enough times to find the key
1304 2013-07-26 22:52:21 <nsh> the nontrivial part is being able to preempt using some private information
1305 2013-07-26 22:52:41 PrimeStunna_ has joined
1306 2013-07-26 22:53:04 <nsh> otherwise it takes you at least as long to encrypt
1307 2013-07-26 22:53:30 <petertodd> read this page? http://www.gwern.net/Self-decrypting%20files
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1309 2013-07-26 22:53:42 <nsh> it's open in a tab, haven't got to it
1310 2013-07-26 22:54:29 <petertodd> good overview
1311 2013-07-26 22:54:50 * nsh nods
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1316 2013-07-26 23:00:28 <nsh> is it not possible with multisig so have some kinda of pass-the-parcel transaction that loses one wrapper (signatory) at each block?
1317 2013-07-26 23:01:04 <petertodd> scripting language doesn't allow scripts to constrain the spending txs in any way, so not yet
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1319 2013-07-26 23:01:42 <nsh> is it feasible with some richer opcodes?
1320 2013-07-26 23:02:06 <nsh> may be hard to prove that there aren't unintended results that subvert the system
1321 2013-07-26 23:02:18 <nsh> with increasing complexity
1322 2013-07-26 23:02:34 <petertodd> for sure
1323 2013-07-26 23:02:55 <petertodd> main thing with additional opcodes is ensuring we don't add convergence bugs, or make unintentionally useless ones
1324 2013-07-26 23:03:10 * nsh nods
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1343 2013-07-26 23:43:42 <rubino123> I am trying to compile the github repo bitcoind
1344 2013-07-26 23:44:05 <rubino123> I am getting the following error
1345 2013-07-26 23:44:06 <rubino123> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
1346 2013-07-26 23:44:19 <rubino123> make: *** [bitcoind] Error 1
1347 2013-07-26 23:44:47 <CodeShark> what OS? what command did you use to build?
1348 2013-07-26 23:45:08 <rubino123> ubuntu 12.10 ; make -f makefile.unix
1349 2013-07-26 23:46:40 <rubino123> this comes up at the begging of the compile
1350 2013-07-26 23:46:40 <rubino123> /bin/sh ../share/genbuild.sh obj/build.h
1351 2013-07-26 23:46:52 <rubino123> fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home/main)
1352 2013-07-26 23:46:54 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1353 2013-07-26 23:47:05 <rubino123> Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set)
1354 2013-07-26 23:47:30 <CodeShark> sounds like you're missing some files
1355 2013-07-26 23:47:40 <CodeShark> or have some filesystem problem
1356 2013-07-26 23:47:48 <rubino123> all dependencies are there
1357 2013-07-26 23:47:58 macboz has joined
1358 2013-07-26 23:47:59 <rubino123> filesystem is fine as far as I know
1359 2013-07-26 23:49:04 <CodeShark> what happens if you git status?
1360 2013-07-26 23:49:54 <rubino123> those same lines I just messaged
1361 2013-07-26 23:50:01 <CodeShark> the linker error you're getting is due to some error that happened before
1362 2013-07-26 23:50:07 <CodeShark> it's not the cause
1363 2013-07-26 23:50:21 <rubino123> hmm
1364 2013-07-26 23:50:24 <CodeShark> sounds like that fatal error has a lot more to do with it
1365 2013-07-26 23:50:31 <rubino123> git
1366 2013-07-26 23:50:32 <rubino123> ?
1367 2013-07-26 23:50:43 <rubino123> uninstall and reinstall?
1368 2013-07-26 23:51:11 <CodeShark> what did "git status" give you?
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1370 2013-07-26 23:52:52 <rubino123> fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home/main)
1371 2013-07-26 23:53:02 <rubino123> Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set)
1372 2013-07-26 23:53:19 <CodeShark> ok, then either the clone is corrupt or your git is corrupt
1373 2013-07-26 23:53:30 <rubino123> clone
1374 2013-07-26 23:53:45 <rubino123> will remove and retry
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