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28 2013-07-29 01:16:44 <gbg> 00 17 C6 27 66 77 C6 54 F4 25 F4 32 <---look like anything to you?
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40 2013-07-29 01:29:59 <jgarzik> hex
41 2013-07-29 01:30:16 <Luke-Jr> you mean tonal
42 2013-07-29 01:30:18 * Luke-Jr hides
43 2013-07-29 01:30:47 <petertodd> you mean base 2^64
44 2013-07-29 01:30:58 <petertodd> (the full unicode character set)
45 2013-07-29 01:31:38 <Luke-Jr> I don't think Unicode's total is 2^64
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47 2013-07-29 01:32:23 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: standard is either 2^16 or 2^32, but I'm planning ahead
48 2013-07-29 01:32:37 <petertodd> glactic conquest
49 2013-07-29 01:32:53 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure it's something like 0x1fffffffff
50 2013-07-29 01:33:04 <petertodd> pff, such a small imagination
51 2013-07-29 01:33:24 <petertodd> we the borg plan on supporting every language of every race we conquor
52 2013-07-29 01:33:49 <Luke-Jr> even infininary?
53 2013-07-29 01:34:11 <petertodd> EVERY RACE
54 2013-07-29 01:34:20 <petertodd> (even if we have to use a floating point character set)
55 2013-07-29 01:34:49 <midnightmagic> did you know an x-friendly pcf font can only contain 0xffff characters?
56 2013-07-29 01:35:08 <petertodd> (your chance of spelling mistakes due to floating point imprecision goes up if your language is rare)
57 2013-07-29 01:35:38 <midnightmagic> bdftopcf actually won't allow you to convert anything higher than that, so you can't have a bitmap pcf-type font with the full unicode set in it.
58 2013-07-29 01:35:59 <petertodd> I feel so bad for the klingon enthusiests
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60 2013-07-29 01:38:12 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: re non-std, I noticed that because p2pool forwards transctions, it seems that my non-std accepting node using p2pool *not* connected to the free relay server has gotten some from someone else in it's mempool
61 2013-07-29 01:38:58 <midnightmagic> cool!
62 2013-07-29 01:39:00 <petertodd> interesting scheme really, because p2pool only forwards up to 50KiB of data per share, so it's effectively a PoW data distribution mechanism
63 2013-07-29 01:40:04 <petertodd> not a problem for the share calculation though, as that's determined soley by hashes, not fees (it'd be a nifty exploit otherwise)
64 2013-07-29 01:40:05 <Luke-Jr> does p2pool have a way for nodes to respond "wtf, that transaction is invalid you tool!"
65 2013-07-29 01:40:07 <Luke-Jr> ?
66 2013-07-29 01:41:11 <petertodd> nope, it keeps a list of known_txs, but txs only get added to that list from your local mempool, it has the concept of additional txs, which get added to your local node's mempool from shares, but obviously if the txs are rejected they don't make their way back to known_txs
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68 2013-07-29 01:41:41 <petertodd> I suspect forrestv wanted to do share calc via fees included, but there's no good way to do that so he's only written half the code required to do it
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128 2013-07-29 03:48:30 <Vinnie_win> I need help
129 2013-07-29 03:48:43 <Vinnie_win> How do I get abs(std::numeric_limits <int64>::min()) as a uint64 correctly?
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156 2013-07-29 04:32:38 <jgarzik> w00t
157 2013-07-29 04:32:49 <jgarzik> I am officially a farmer for the first time in well over a year
158 2013-07-29 04:32:57 <jgarzik> (mining with two Avalons, rather than one)
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168 2013-07-29 05:01:21 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: did you have to perform some unholy ritual to summon the second avalon from lost package hell?
169 2013-07-29 05:04:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, third
170 2013-07-29 05:04:37 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, third remains in purgatory
171 2013-07-29 05:05:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, considering a plane flight to NC, to short-circuit possibly unknown lengths of time until this is resolved
172 2013-07-29 05:06:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Batch #2 arrived at the correct, NEW mailing address. That is why it was strange that Batch #3 machine went to the OLD address. At that point, they had acknowledged the address change -and- shipped a machine to the new address.
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176 2013-07-29 05:08:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: one of mine is still removely located in Va due to that fun. Perhaps dispatch bluematt to go obtain it?
177 2013-07-29 05:09:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, it's at the DHL office nor a doorstep. Not sure at this point if anybody but me can pick it up? Oddly, it is difficult to find a DHL customer service number for this location and issue, too.
178 2013-07-29 05:12:22 * jgarzik just got a message RE his BFL Single, too: I can have it now, sans PSU. Or wait 2-3 weeks for a Single + PSU.
179 2013-07-29 05:12:25 justusranvier_ is now known as justusranvier
180 2013-07-29 05:12:39 <warren> jgarzik: hard decision =P
181 2013-07-29 05:14:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: so when mine was misdirected DHL allowed let me have someone else pick it up, they wanted their name and would require ID ... then they failed to hold it. So if you can reach them you can probably have someone else pick it up. They should also be able to redirect it.
182 2013-07-29 05:15:10 DoctorBTC has joined
183 2013-07-29 05:15:34 <gmaxwell> Back in march it was a little more important to not even lose a day of operating time. :)
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187 2013-07-29 05:21:59 <jgarzik> indeed
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194 2013-07-29 05:46:54 <sipa> petertodd: afaik there is one basic plane and 16 extended planes in unjcode, each 2^16 large, with some ranges excluded. so in total a bit less than 17*2^16
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197 2013-07-29 05:50:57 <sipa> jgarzik: happy farmin'!
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204 2013-07-29 06:13:41 <midnightmagic> my b#2 trade-in is in limbo. I'm on the verge of just assuming my icarus are gone forever..
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208 2013-07-29 06:32:48 <CodeShark> are file rename operations generally atomic on all popular filesystems?
209 2013-07-29 06:33:14 <CodeShark> and under what circumstances (short of catastrophic disk failure) would this not be the case?
210 2013-07-29 06:40:10 <midnightmagic> CodeShark: rename is not atomic on Windows.
211 2013-07-29 06:40:39 <CodeShark> FAT and NTFS?
212 2013-07-29 06:41:46 <CodeShark> but it is on ext4?
213 2013-07-29 06:42:08 <Luke-Jr> ext4 on Windows?
214 2013-07-29 06:42:14 <CodeShark> no, on linux
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216 2013-07-29 06:47:09 <sipa> midnightmagic: huh? which intermediate state is observable?
217 2013-07-29 06:47:22 <CodeShark> BSOD? :p
218 2013-07-29 06:47:48 <sipa> that has nothing to do with atomicness
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220 2013-07-29 06:47:59 <CodeShark> I know, it was a joke
221 2013-07-29 06:48:47 <CodeShark> as in if you get such a state chances are something really bad happened
222 2013-07-29 06:49:00 <sipa> ah, missed the context
223 2013-07-29 06:49:25 <sipa> it's rename while overwriting
224 2013-07-29 06:49:45 <sipa> so you may observe the file deleted but the other not renamed
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362 2013-07-29 11:20:20 <bitanarchy> how does bitcoin/litecoin remember its proxy configuration without the config file?
363 2013-07-29 11:20:23 daybyter has joined
364 2013-07-29 11:22:26 <Eliel> I would think it doesn't.
365 2013-07-29 11:22:55 <BlueMatt> it does
366 2013-07-29 11:23:00 <BlueMatt> uses qt storage settings iirc
367 2013-07-29 11:23:51 <bitanarchy> BlueMatt: where are the qt storage settings located?
368 2013-07-29 11:24:00 <bitanarchy> or the qt-storage itself?
369 2013-07-29 11:24:09 <BlueMatt> the qt settings storage module thinggy
370 2013-07-29 11:24:17 <BlueMatt> which stores it in playform-dependant ways
371 2013-07-29 11:24:33 Applicat_ has joined
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373 2013-07-29 11:24:43 <BlueMatt> iirc
374 2013-07-29 11:24:46 <sipa> indeed
375 2013-07-29 11:24:52 <Eliel> does this apply to both bitcoind and bitcoin-qt?
376 2013-07-29 11:25:07 <BlueMatt> no, only -qt
377 2013-07-29 11:25:13 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
378 2013-07-29 11:25:15 <sipa> bitcoind only uses command line and config file
379 2013-07-29 11:25:16 <BlueMatt> you cant change the proxy in d w/o configfile anyway
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387 2013-07-29 11:41:39 <bitanarchy> BlueMatt: does that mean that the qt config file always overrules the bitcoin.conf file?
388 2013-07-29 11:41:54 <sipa> i think it's the other way around
389 2013-07-29 11:42:07 <sipa> the config file overrides the qt config, and the commandline overrides everything
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396 2013-07-29 11:45:31 <bitanarchy> when are you really safe: tor->vpn->tor ?? :P
397 2013-07-29 11:46:07 <sipa> ;;genrate 60000
398 2013-07-29 11:46:08 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 60000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 31256960.7278, is 0.965365482865 BTC per day and 0.040223561786 BTC per hour.
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404 2013-07-29 12:05:40 <sipa> ;;genrate 5000
405 2013-07-29 12:05:42 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 5000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 31256960.7278, is 0.0804471235721 BTC per day and 0.00335196348217 BTC per hour.
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412 2013-07-29 12:17:24 <Vinnie_win> sup fools
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481 2013-07-29 14:03:20 <jgarzik> mornin'
482 2013-07-29 14:04:16 patcon has joined
483 2013-07-29 14:07:19 <iwilcox> Has anyone formally compared inter-block times to the theoretical exponential model?
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488 2013-07-29 14:09:30 <iwilcox> There seems to be a bit of a spike around 30m blocks compared to what the exponential distribution would predict. Might just be folks out there in odd timezones that are +/-30m instead of full hours, but then I'd expect a blip at +/-60m too
489 2013-07-29 14:10:51 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
490 2013-07-29 14:11:11 <gmaxwell> iwilcox: The timestamps in blocks are lies lies lies.
491 2013-07-29 14:11:54 <gmaxwell> They're distorted because miners infrequently update work and then roll their time over a limited range.
492 2013-07-29 14:13:17 theorbtwo has joined
493 2013-07-29 14:21:49 <iwilcox> I'd read something similar, yeah
494 2013-07-29 14:21:49 larsig has joined
495 2013-07-29 14:21:49 <iwilcox> Any suggestions for more reliable sources of block timestamps?
496 2013-07-29 14:21:50 <iwilcox> Guess my own debug.log would be an improvement, but it's patchy.
497 2013-07-29 14:21:50 <kjj_> just lower your expectations and use what is actually available
498 2013-07-29 14:21:50 <jgarzik> hah
499 2013-07-29 14:21:50 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
500 2013-07-29 14:21:50 <gmaxwell> iwilcox: you might be able to get debug.logs from some other nodes. dunno.
501 2013-07-29 14:21:50 darkee has joined
502 2013-07-29 14:21:53 <kjj_> there are philosophical issues with block times. is the block's time the time that the work was generated? when the hash was found? when it was first sent to a peer? when 50% of the network was aware of it?
503 2013-07-29 14:22:25 cc_8 has joined
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505 2013-07-29 14:22:59 <iwilcox> Miners have the incentive to minimise the last three of those. I'm not looking for super-accurate times; just a good compromise.
506 2013-07-29 14:23:20 tmsk has joined
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508 2013-07-29 14:23:33 <nsh> kjj_, those are conventional issues, not philosophical
509 2013-07-29 14:23:48 hsmiths has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
510 2013-07-29 14:23:58 <nsh> :)
511 2013-07-29 14:24:11 tmsk has quit (Client Quit)
512 2013-07-29 14:24:34 <kjj> nsh: I disagree. there are a lot of different times that /could be/ the block's time. picking one is a matter of philosophy
513 2013-07-29 14:25:05 <petertodd> iwilcox: do me a favor and solve this in a nice cryptographicand distributed way so I don't have to feel bad about not doing any work on OpenTimestamps for 6 months
514 2013-07-29 14:25:14 <kjj> iwilcox: run your analysis twice, once using the block's alleged timestamp, and once using your local node's logfile timestamps
515 2013-07-29 14:25:24 tmsk has joined
516 2013-07-29 14:25:36 <nsh> unless you can come up with some philosophical ramifications of this choice, it's a matter of convention by default, kjj
517 2013-07-29 14:25:37 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
518 2013-07-29 14:25:50 hsmiths has joined
519 2013-07-29 14:25:59 <nsh> shaking the right hand or the left hand: convention
520 2013-07-29 14:26:02 <nsh> doing the right thing or the wrong thing: philosophy
521 2013-07-29 14:26:12 <petertodd> iwilcox: serious answer: blockchain.info's timestamps are probably accurate, and they have data going back a lot time
522 2013-07-29 14:26:42 <iwilcox> petertodd: Heh, well, people trusting bci's timestamps is part of my motivation for analysis
523 2013-07-29 14:27:56 <yubrew> is there a standard way to do bitcoin address callbacks?
524 2013-07-29 14:28:24 <iwilcox> petertodd: But yeah, they're probably a better choice than whatever miners put in there.
525 2013-07-29 14:29:15 panzerpanzer has left ()
526 2013-07-29 14:29:35 <petertodd> iwilcox: Quite likely - might be work asking piuk if he's doing NTP, but it's likely he is.
527 2013-07-29 14:30:07 <petertodd> iwilcox: Now if you want "proof" it's pretty easy to use standard signature based timestamps through RFC...3618 I think?
528 2013-07-29 14:30:08 <iwilcox> I'm looking at deltas so even if his clock was consistently off by a day I'd be happy :)
529 2013-07-29 14:30:18 <gmaxwell> his webservers aren't at least.
530 2013-07-29 14:30:51 <gmaxwell> IIRC I observed them being 10 minutes off (and something like 11 minutes skew between them) at one point using Jacob's SSL time thingy.
531 2013-07-29 14:30:55 <petertodd> iwilcox: Ha, I'm sure for some epsilon delta time they're pretty good. :P on a per-server basis... keep in mind he's got a whole pile of monitoring nodes, so who knows.
532 2013-07-29 14:31:40 roconnor has joined
533 2013-07-29 14:32:22 <kjj> I'd send you my timestamps for the last 42732 blocks, but there are some quirks in my data
534 2013-07-29 14:33:57 <kjj> hmm. maybe I should change my logging to the external node that doesn't get restarted every morning
535 2013-07-29 14:34:12 <iwilcox> How long has sipa had that diff graph thingy going? There's a reasonable chance he's got a long-running node's log.
536 2013-07-29 14:34:35 <TD> sipa: is libsecp256k1 resistant to timing attacks?
537 2013-07-29 14:35:10 <petertodd> Crazy idea: suppose you want a timestamp of, say, a given transaction: collect many shares for blocks including that transaction and create a non-interactive proof for a merkle-sum-tree calculating the mean time. If you assume timestamps are normally distributed, as opposed to having some bias, *and* you somehow prove the first time the tx is used for a given miner, you can average out the error.
538 2013-07-29 14:35:10 owowo has joined
539 2013-07-29 14:35:16 <sipa> TD: for verification, timing attacks are irrelevant
540 2013-07-29 14:35:24 <sipa> TD: for signing, no, but more so than openssl
541 2013-07-29 14:35:25 <TD> i meant for signing
542 2013-07-29 14:35:27 <TD> ok
543 2013-07-29 14:36:11 <petertodd> (non-interactive proof being to keep the total proof size small)
544 2013-07-29 14:36:58 <gmaxwell> constant time operations would be nice for singning but ugh more work.
545 2013-07-29 14:37:38 <Vinnie_win> What's up clowns
546 2013-07-29 14:37:42 <TD> i was trying to flesh out the list of security issues with bitcoinj
547 2013-07-29 14:37:51 <TD> i'm sure bouncy castle has no resistance to timing attacks at all
548 2013-07-29 14:38:18 <BlueMatt> TD: at what point did libsecp256k1 be enabled for signing in bitcoinj?
549 2013-07-29 14:38:35 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
550 2013-07-29 14:39:06 <petertodd> TD: Considered just using a fixed timer for signing operations? IE, sign some data, but hold it until the current second expires?
551 2013-07-29 14:39:17 BCBot has joined
552 2013-07-29 14:39:38 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ...
553 2013-07-29 14:40:05 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Hey, it works and is easy to understand. Replace 1s with 0.1s or 0.01s if required.
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557 2013-07-29 14:40:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it's pretty easy to end up with those approaches leaking information still.
558 2013-07-29 14:40:43 <BlueMatt> for timing specifically, ok, but there is more than one kind of side-channel attack, and by making sure the code runs in constant time, other side-channels are less likely to appear
559 2013-07-29 14:41:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Why? If you do it on both incoming and outgoing, and set the interval > longest signature time, the attacker can observe nothing more than the phase of your clock relative to theirs.
560 2013-07-29 14:41:47 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. easy for a small delay to get rounded to zero, or a large delay to be quantized so that the timing leaks in some fraction of cases .. and as bluematt points out, cache sidechannels (which ecdsa implementations create), or power side channels still remain.
561 2013-07-29 14:42:31 <gmaxwell> (not that I'd disagree with adding some timing noise absent other protectionâ but it's not a real replacement)
562 2013-07-29 14:42:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: This isn't a delay, this is a fixed schedule. IE regardless of when the signature operation completes, don't send it to the outside world except on a multiple of a whole second, or whatever interval you want.
563 2013-07-29 14:43:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, and you end up with a timer implementation that rounds to seconds (say) and then leaks when the start time is late enough it would have rounded to zero.
564 2013-07-29 14:43:45 <gmaxwell> (and getting accurate timing is not platform independant code, so it's more security important crap thats hard to test)
565 2013-07-29 14:44:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, but the start time doesn't need to be under the attackers control either. Again, every second process the queue of outgoing messages, and process the queue of incoming messages. However long the operations happen in between that interval is unobservable provided they take less time than the interval.
566 2013-07-29 14:45:34 <petertodd> Accurate timing doesn't even matter, because the timing variation has nothing to do with how long the signature operations took.
567 2013-07-29 14:45:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: still observable to someone who is flooding you with pings and measuring the jitter to tell when you're in sleep. :P
568 2013-07-29 14:46:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, which is why you subject *all* messages to this routine.
569 2013-07-29 14:46:30 <gmaxwell> _ping_
570 2013-07-29 14:46:38 * petertodd looks at watch
571 2013-07-29 14:47:00 <gmaxwell> as in your kernel is doing this. If you're going to postulate writing a kernel implementation of signing ... use a fking constant time one!
572 2013-07-29 14:47:23 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
573 2013-07-29 14:47:38 <sipa> TD: the curve-specific optimized EC implementations in OpenSSL are timing-attack resistant (fully, ever for verification, afaik), but the generic implementation (which bitcoin currently uses for secp256k1) isn't
574 2013-07-29 14:47:40 <petertodd> OK, I'm at a quarter of a minute multiple, so I'll send out my queue of responses: pong
575 2013-07-29 14:48:18 Skav has joined
576 2013-07-29 14:48:19 <petertodd> You learned *nothing* about how long it took me to process a ping, except that it took less than 15 seconds..
577 2013-07-29 14:48:32 <gmaxwell> ICMP ECHO REQUEST
578 2013-07-29 14:48:34 <gmaxwell> not bitcoin pings.
579 2013-07-29 14:48:43 <sipa> PC LOAD LETTER
580 2013-07-29 14:49:03 <petertodd> LP0 ON FIRE
581 2013-07-29 14:49:33 <sipa> 402 PAYMENT REQuired
582 2013-07-29 14:50:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah, but if you are postulating stuff like ICMP echo requests, you are already in the regime where my strict schedule is making life at least an order of magnitude more difficult for you.
583 2013-07-29 14:50:30 <petertodd> sipa: 5JirDvEYVarkTqWtkSpkLB9geH2nFudmjFmhAwikXUNiFGqdk7b
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585 2013-07-29 14:51:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Heck, even if you do think you have a constant time signmsg implementation, the strict schedule is good protection from screwups.
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588 2013-07-29 14:53:16 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, sure, belt and suspenders is great. I was just objecting to the "add timing fuzz" as a general replacement for constant time.
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592 2013-07-29 14:53:58 <gmaxwell> For something like a lossy audio codec where making it constant time is engineering unrealistic best practice is timing the output when you want to hide the timing side channel.
593 2013-07-29 14:53:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, but you gotta admit, what I'm proposing isn't fuzz, it's something significantly better. It only becomes fuzz through second-order effects.
594 2013-07-29 14:54:50 <gmaxwell> (What you do for audio is that after compressing this packet you hold it and the audio read (triggered by the DSP clock) of the next frame makes you release it)
595 2013-07-29 14:55:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, pretty much exactly what I'm proposing.
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607 2013-07-29 15:11:22 <sipa> jgarzik, petertodd: not sure you saw this yesterday, but i did a benchmark of bitcoind-headersfirst-parallelblocksync-libsecp256k1 on a fast machine with large dbcache, from random peers in 43 minutes
608 2013-07-29 15:11:32 <sipa> </brag>
609 2013-07-29 15:11:38 <petertodd> sipa: deserved
610 2013-07-29 15:11:39 <jgarzik> cool
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612 2013-07-29 15:12:05 <sipa> a second run took 46 minutes
613 2013-07-29 15:12:05 <petertodd> sipa: you planning on doing any work re: spv/partial mode too?
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617 2013-07-29 15:13:04 <sipa> petertodd: spv, likely - i'd like to see the ui/wallet move to a separate spv-ran process, with a fully vverifying bitcoind process forked off if wanted
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622 2013-07-29 15:13:21 <sipa> even if it remains one codebase for now
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625 2013-07-29 15:15:08 <petertodd> sipa: Cool, once SPV works I don't think implementing partial is a big deal. For that metter, with blockheaders implementing partial is probably not bad either, it's just it's not useful as a wallet without SPV.
626 2013-07-29 15:15:10 Subo1978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
627 2013-07-29 15:16:17 <sipa> spv is basically headersonly + wallet-driven filtered fetching
628 2013-07-29 15:16:25 <sipa> instead of blockchain-driven fetching
629 2013-07-29 15:16:40 <sipa> it's sort of neat
630 2013-07-29 15:16:51 <sipa> there is a pindexBest and a pindexBestHeader
631 2013-07-29 15:17:01 patcon has joined
632 2013-07-29 15:17:03 <sipa> and the latter is guaranteed to be always a descendant of the first
633 2013-07-29 15:17:28 <k9quaint> nobody likes Thailand anyway!
634 2013-07-29 15:17:29 <petertodd> Oh, so in pure SPV pindexBest is likely to be just the genesis block?
635 2013-07-29 15:17:33 <sipa> but you can perfectly keep pindexBest at genesis
636 2013-07-29 15:17:40 <sipa> exactly
637 2013-07-29 15:18:01 <sipa> pindexBest is really "the current utxo state"
638 2013-07-29 15:18:08 <sipa> tgere could be more levels
639 2013-07-29 15:18:21 <sipa> like if script validation is done asynchronously
640 2013-07-29 15:18:27 <petertodd> Hmm... in partial pindexBest will usually == pindexBestHeader, and then we need to add pindexBestOldest or something less awkwardly named
641 2013-07-29 15:18:48 <sipa> let's worry about that later
642 2013-07-29 15:19:05 <sipa> i don't think there is a problem in supporting that
643 2013-07-29 15:19:18 <petertodd> Good, so long as you're not designing anything into a corner.
644 2013-07-29 15:19:33 <sipa> the difficult part was making the best-chain decision be headers-based rather than block based
645 2013-07-29 15:20:15 <sipa> anyway, this is not pullreq ready yet, though feel free to try (it's in my jeadersfirst branch)
646 2013-07-29 15:20:24 <sipa> headersfirst
647 2013-07-29 15:20:29 larsig has quit ()
648 2013-07-29 15:20:48 <sipa> reindex doean't work yet (as it can't deal with out-of-order blocks on disk)
649 2013-07-29 15:21:05 <sipa> and there are some issues with steady-state syncing
650 2013-07-29 15:21:27 <sipa> (which tries to avoid the intermediate header sync, to avoid extra propagation delay)
651 2013-07-29 15:21:33 <TD> i was hoping you'd do pruning first. oh well.
652 2013-07-29 15:21:58 <sipa> pruning
653 2013-07-29 15:22:00 <sipa> and bip32
654 2013-07-29 15:22:07 <sipa> and headers-first/spv
655 2013-07-29 15:22:19 <sipa> and secp256k1
656 2013-07-29 15:22:22 <TD> the difference being that there's already an spv implementation, whereas there's no node that prunes
657 2013-07-29 15:22:27 <sipa> and refactoring
658 2013-07-29 15:22:37 <sipa> i can't choose
659 2013-07-29 15:22:42 <sipa> so i do what i like
660 2013-07-29 15:23:01 <TD> *shrug* alright. if it's just for entertainment purposes, go wild
661 2013-07-29 15:23:21 <sipa> well, headers first is far more useful than just spv
662 2013-07-29 15:23:21 <petertodd> sipa: too bad that headersfirst touches so much consensus critical code :(
663 2013-07-29 15:23:49 <petertodd> sipa: IMO pruning is much more interesting with partial mode and SPV myself
664 2013-07-29 15:23:55 <sipa> petertodd: it doea not touch connectblock, checktransaction, connecttransaction, accepttransaction, ...
665 2013-07-29 15:23:55 <TD> why? from-zero bootstrap of a full node will always be slow. you can optimise it, which will change it from "very slow" to "slow" for a while, but then it'll be back to "very slow" again.
666 2013-07-29 15:24:10 denom has joined
667 2013-07-29 15:24:23 <TD> that's why the website tells users to pick between "i want it now" and "i want to help the network"
668 2013-07-29 15:24:24 <sipa> that doesn't make it useless
669 2013-07-29 15:24:37 <sipa> but i agree, pruning is also interesting
670 2013-07-29 15:24:41 <TD> it's not useless, but it won't significantly impact anyones decision about what software to run (or shouldn't)
671 2013-07-29 15:25:07 <petertodd> TD: partial mode can contribute back to the network for incresingly large % of transactions, including helping provide block history to others bootstrapping
672 2013-07-29 15:25:20 <petertodd> TD: and it can provide SPV security until it reaches full-node status
673 2013-07-29 15:25:43 <sipa> but it requires some boring lobbying work and bips to get some flags about block availability in p2p
674 2013-07-29 15:25:59 <petertodd> TD: We really need "run a full node" to be a default thing to do if you've got some spare bandwidth and disk space.
675 2013-07-29 15:25:59 <sipa> not that i expect much objection
676 2013-07-29 15:26:04 <sipa> but it's not fun
677 2013-07-29 15:26:11 <TD> sipa: yeah i doubt it'd involve much "lobbying", per se
678 2013-07-29 15:26:16 <petertodd> sipa: No, although partial is different than what you proposed, so yet more discussion...
679 2013-07-29 15:26:22 <TD> petertodd: well, that's what the website tells people.
680 2013-07-29 15:26:32 <TD> (if they want to donate that spare bandwidth/disk space)
681 2013-07-29 15:26:44 <TD> imho there's really only two speeds that matter - instant and not instant
682 2013-07-29 15:26:46 <petertodd> TD: Indeed, and the website's advice turns users off because their node doesn't seem to do anyting for ages.
683 2013-07-29 15:26:56 <TD> moving aroundin between those two speeds is relatively uninteresting, from a users pov
684 2013-07-29 15:26:58 <petertodd> TD: three speeds, you forgot "apparently instant"
685 2013-07-29 15:27:05 <TD> well. same thing :)
686 2013-07-29 15:27:21 <petertodd> TD: partial is very much apparently instant :)
687 2013-07-29 15:27:49 <sipa> partial is really spv + background upgrading to full, while beinh increasingly useful during that period
688 2013-07-29 15:28:22 <TD> the simplest way to implement that is just make bitcoind into a windows service, and then have it run in the background, and make MultiBit+friends always try connecting to localhost
689 2013-07-29 15:28:33 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Leaving)
690 2013-07-29 15:28:40 <TD> so if you decide to help out, you just download+run some background thing, and carry on as normal
691 2013-07-29 15:28:43 <petertodd> sipa: yup, the only thing different from what people have proposed before is the realization that partial can do useful relaying without every block processed
692 2013-07-29 15:28:48 <TD> you're upgraded to full security when you're caught up and beyond that it's transparent
693 2013-07-29 15:28:59 <TD> the nice thing about that is - no complicated changes to the codebase are required.
694 2013-07-29 15:29:34 <sipa> TD: yes, i like that model
695 2013-07-29 15:29:50 <gmaxwell> [OT] if anyone wants to watch me make a fool of myself presenting on Opus (audio codec I work on), I'll be presenting at the IETf technical plenary, which runs from 1740-1940 CEST (the opus stuff will start half way through or so)
696 2013-07-29 15:29:57 <TD> gmaxwell: good luck!
697 2013-07-29 15:30:00 <gmaxwell> stream at http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/tech_plenary slides at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-iab-techplenary-5
698 2013-07-29 15:30:04 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
699 2013-07-29 15:30:19 <gmaxwell> TD: I'm only talking for 10 minutes of it and got half my slides slimmed out. :P but it should be fun. Thanks.
700 2013-07-29 15:30:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: nice!
701 2013-07-29 15:30:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: break a leg!
702 2013-07-29 15:31:00 <petertodd> TD: yeah, ironically for really important stuff complicated changes to the user's idea of what's going on is required, but those people need to know what they're doing...
703 2013-07-29 15:31:18 melvster has joined
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705 2013-07-29 15:38:46 <petertodd> TD: is it easy in multibit to add arbitrary stuff to the bloom filter and get a call back when it matches?
706 2013-07-29 15:39:21 <TD> multibit is a GUI app. you mean bitcoinj, i think.
707 2013-07-29 15:39:35 <petertodd> doh, thinko
708 2013-07-29 15:39:37 <BlueMatt> petertodd: yes(ish)
709 2013-07-29 15:39:37 <petertodd> yeah, bitcoinj
710 2013-07-29 15:39:40 <BlueMatt> as of 0.10
711 2013-07-29 15:39:41 <TD> yes
712 2013-07-29 15:39:48 <TD> see this class: http://plan99.net/~mike/bitcoinj/0.9/com/google/bitcoin/core/BloomFilter.html
713 2013-07-29 15:40:02 <TD> as BlueMatt says, in 0.10 we made it easier to add your own bloom filter that augments any added by the Wallet class
714 2013-07-29 15:40:47 <TD> you can also add pubkeys to a Wallet and it'll do the standard tracking stuff for you, in 0.10 you can also add ask it to track transactions that aren't relevant (i.e. you don't have any keys or addresses in the wallet)
715 2013-07-29 15:41:05 <TD> 0.10 is current git master, but i'm working on releasing it this week. there aren't many changes going in now.
716 2013-07-29 15:41:19 <TD> (just writing more docs and rewriting the getting started tutorial, actually)
717 2013-07-29 15:41:31 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
718 2013-07-29 15:41:37 <petertodd> Ah cool, I guess the other question, is can I ask the wallet to track arbitrary scriptPubKeys?
719 2013-07-29 15:43:52 <TD> there's no direct API for that, but it can be achieved by implementing a PeerFilterProvider (object that serves bloom filters), then adding it to the PeerGroup so it's merged with the rest and uploaded. Then you can subclass wallet and override isTransactionRelevant() to return true when you see your special scriptPubKey (i.e. drop the false positives)
720 2013-07-29 15:44:27 <BlueMatt> dont even have to subclass wallet, you can just listen for those txn directly on the peer connections and forward them to a regular wallet
721 2013-07-29 15:44:28 <TD> it's a bit of an unusual use case. i wouldn't be surprised if something weird happens :) but that would cause any transaction containing that scriptPubKey to be inserted into the wallet and have its confidence tracked, as per usual
722 2013-07-29 15:44:31 <TD> of course it might die if you try and create a spend
723 2013-07-29 15:44:34 <BlueMatt> (using the override isRelevant flag)
724 2013-07-29 15:44:44 <gmaxwell> Ah, mp3 stream at http://ietf87streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf874.m3u (and the streams should be starting now)
725 2013-07-29 15:44:44 nowan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
726 2013-07-29 15:44:45 <TD> BlueMatt: need to include confirmed transactions
727 2013-07-29 15:44:55 <BlueMatt> well, yes, and scan blocks too
728 2013-07-29 15:45:25 <TD> BlueMatt: why replicate all that when you could just override the wallets notion of relevancy? perhaps we should tighten up this bit of API and document it/do an example app
729 2013-07-29 15:45:59 <TD> BlueMatt: using the wallet as a container of arbitrary transactions you want to track and save isn't unreasonable. really it should be refactored into a base class that just tracks things/processes re-orgs, etc, and then a subclass that knows how to craft spends
730 2013-07-29 15:46:07 <TD> it's been on my todo list since forever but there are always higher prioritites
731 2013-07-29 15:46:09 <BlueMatt> TD: I suppose it doesnt really matter, but subclassing and overriding internal methods just looks ugly
732 2013-07-29 15:46:35 <TD> well, technically isTransactionRelevant is public. so you're not overriding an internal method. but yes, to properly support that, we'd want to document how to do it safely
733 2013-07-29 15:46:56 <petertodd> Yeah, an arbitrary transaction container sounds about right - just thinking about what it'd take to do a "savings wallet" implementation based on my one-time-password oracle idea.
734 2013-07-29 15:47:12 <TD> i haven't read up on that one yet so can't really say
735 2013-07-29 15:47:13 MC1984_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
736 2013-07-29 15:47:37 <petertodd> TD: basically the oracle idea, except you are the oracle and your answers are "these coins are now allowed to move
737 2013-07-29 15:47:40 <petertodd> "
738 2013-07-29 15:47:56 <TD> you can already do normal savings wallets by just adding the pubkey with no private part. but that wouldn't work for exotic script types.
739 2013-07-29 15:48:01 <petertodd> TD: could wind up with a pad of paper with codes, and each ocde authorizes, say 1BTC of funds to be spent
740 2013-07-29 15:49:01 <petertodd> TD: no control of *where* the funds go, but it's an extremely simple and robust mechanism to control the rate they are spent - you could have your CFO out on his yaught authorizing funds to be unlocked for a business unit with a sat phone and a pad of paper
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744 2013-07-29 15:50:37 <TD> i guess so
745 2013-07-29 15:50:46 <TD> it's an interesting idea. not sure if trezor makes it redundant though
746 2013-07-29 15:50:55 <TD> but there's a certain robustness to a pad of paper that everyone likes :)
747 2013-07-29 15:52:30 <petertodd> TD: yeah, just a different way of solving the problem with different tradeoffs, of course, in some cases it's actually useful that the authorizer doesn't need to know anything, heck, they can authorize a spend before the funds even arrive
748 2013-07-29 15:52:46 <TD> yeah
749 2013-07-29 15:52:48 <petertodd> As always though, getting funds *into* the wallet safely requires thought.
750 2013-07-29 15:53:00 <TD> well, it's my goal that bitcoinj is the easiest and best way to write any kind of interesting contracts app.
751 2013-07-29 15:53:10 <TD> it's imperfect for that in many ways today, but gets better with every release
752 2013-07-29 15:53:45 <petertodd> Well, note that P2SH support is quite useful there, for instance for ensuring oracles learn nothing in advance about what they are authorizing.
753 2013-07-29 15:54:15 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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757 2013-07-29 15:55:32 <TD> yes. the only reason P2SH isn't implemented is that it hasn't been an important feature for mobile users so far. if someone did implement it, i'd merge the changes in but i don't intend on doing it myself any time soon. deterministic wallets and the payment protocol are the most important things next
758 2013-07-29 15:55:40 <TD> also reviewing and maybe merging BlueMatt's work to kill off netty
759 2013-07-29 15:58:03 <petertodd> Well, maybe you'll get lucky and alp will implement it.
760 2013-07-29 15:58:16 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
761 2013-07-29 15:58:36 <petertodd> jdillon's opcode whitelist idea seems reasonable to me too, although only if you consider excess stack items at the end of execution to make a tx non-std
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765 2013-07-29 15:59:48 Steve132 has joined
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767 2013-07-29 16:01:48 <Steve132> Hi, can someone explain the result oft this API call on the blockchain API? https://blockchain.info/merchant/1421c95158db256ecf15a07c21e956bedac59e540de23991949cb983468beb14/list
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769 2013-07-29 16:02:23 <Steve132> I guess what I'm doing here is kinda 'wrong' anyway, but what I'm trying to do is have blockchain calculate the pubkey from the privatekey and return it...I'm using their
770 2013-07-29 16:02:27 lle has joined
771 2013-07-29 16:02:28 <Steve132> merchant api
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773 2013-07-29 16:02:40 <Steve132> whats weird is that there are two addresses
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778 2013-07-29 16:04:11 <jgarzik> Steve132, a private key may yield an uncompressed or compressed public key, each with their own associated hash values (bitcoin addresses)
779 2013-07-29 16:04:17 <jgarzik> Steve132, compressed should always be used, these days
780 2013-07-29 16:04:24 Subo1978 has joined
781 2013-07-29 16:04:29 <Steve132> thanks
782 2013-07-29 16:04:40 <jgarzik> Steve132, In any case, you really should keep your keys private, and not send them to a remote server, just to make such a simple calculation
783 2013-07-29 16:05:18 <Steve132> Obviously. I'm actually just experimenting with something
784 2013-07-29 16:05:44 <Steve132> but yes, for any actual real money, obviously I would not do that
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792 2013-07-29 16:17:58 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Last night I let bitcoind rebuild the chainstate and database directories, it finally finished, however it kept crashing at startup
793 2013-07-29 16:18:16 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
794 2013-07-29 16:18:17 <Krellan> however it would last longer before crashing: it ran for a minute or so on the bitcoin network
795 2013-07-29 16:18:58 <Krellan> my shellscript kept restarting bitcoind, and I'm glad it worked - eventually, bitcoind received newly solved blocks
796 2013-07-29 16:19:22 <Krellan> and when my TX eventually got mined by somebody, bitcoind was now happy, and kept running. It's running fine now, hasn't crashed in hours.
797 2013-07-29 16:19:36 <Krellan> I have captured the last few restarts in scrollback if interested.
798 2013-07-29 16:20:28 <Krellan> This was the "mempool transaction missing input" assertion failure at main.cpp:4251
799 2013-07-29 16:21:42 stochasm has joined
800 2013-07-29 16:24:02 <Krellan> Interesting how the behavior changed from "die instantly upon startup" to "die a few seconds into the run after establishing network connections".
801 2013-07-29 16:24:30 <Krellan> That was what let it limp until it was able to immediately see a new block on the network and thus find the missing pieces of the TX it needed in order to solve its missing input.
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816 2013-07-29 16:36:23 <Krellan> bitcoind listtransactions includes immature, however, bitcoind listunspent does not. Is there a way to make listunspent also include this? Trying to make a script to email me when block found.
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824 2013-07-29 16:49:48 <Steve132> What happens if I send two transactions really fast through addresses I control? Like, I send a transaction from address A to address B...then, after it hits the network but before it has any confirmations or is included in a block, resend the same coin
825 2013-07-29 16:49:50 <Steve132> from B
826 2013-07-29 16:49:55 <Steve132> somewhere else
827 2013-07-29 16:50:03 <Steve132> It's not a double-spend, its just a relay
828 2013-07-29 16:50:09 <Steve132> would it be detected as a double-spend?
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830 2013-07-29 16:51:47 <Scrat> Steve132: detected by what? and no, it's not a double spend
831 2013-07-29 16:52:02 <Scrat> in fact you can do that in a b.i wallet (send unconfirmed outputs)
832 2013-07-29 16:52:24 <Steve132> Ok.
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835 2013-07-29 17:08:14 <TD> scary
836 2013-07-29 17:08:28 <TD> someone is trying to use bitcoinj to write an app without having read satoshi's paper, indeed without any bitcoin knowledge at all
837 2013-07-29 17:08:50 * TD fixes the docs/web page to point users at the paper before anything else
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840 2013-07-29 17:12:31 <jgarzik> TD, scary yet will continue again and again ;p
841 2013-07-29 17:12:51 <TD> "the docs use terms like 'output' or 'change address' that aren't defined anywhere"
842 2013-07-29 17:12:53 <jgarzik> TD, tons of people download and use bitcoind because they heard it was virtual money, and never read the paper
843 2013-07-29 17:12:54 <TD> hmmm ...
844 2013-07-29 17:12:57 <TD> yeah
845 2013-07-29 17:13:05 <TD> users is one thing. developers - that's something else :)
846 2013-07-29 17:13:14 <jgarzik> true :)
847 2013-07-29 17:15:29 bitbitbyte has joined
848 2013-07-29 17:18:34 <gmaxwell> TD: _lots_ of people show up trying to build bitcoin _implementations_ without having read the paper, much less apps.
849 2013-07-29 17:18:40 <TD> lol
850 2013-07-29 17:18:53 <TD> damn. i didn't know someone tried to create an implementation without reading the paper. that's bad.
851 2013-07-29 17:19:08 <gmaxwell> And the paper doesn't really walk you through the subtle stuff carefully. E.g. it never bludgeons you that the consensus is only _eventual_. :P
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853 2013-07-29 17:19:36 <TD> it doesn't? i thought the section where he writes an entire program to calculate the probability of reversals made that point pretty clear
854 2013-07-29 17:20:21 <gmaxwell> I've observed people thinking they don't need to worry about it because "oh thats high hashpower attacks", the point that small reorgs happen even without attackers surprises people.
855 2013-07-29 17:20:36 <gmaxwell> Ending up with people whos software breaks when something unconfirms and reconfirms. :P
856 2013-07-29 17:20:51 <TD> d'oh
857 2013-07-29 17:20:55 <gmaxwell> (e.g. one amusing one processed transactions twice in that case!)
858 2013-07-29 17:20:57 <lle> bludgeons, hehe
859 2013-07-29 17:20:59 <TD> yeah. well that's why satoshi was against a kind of listtransactions call
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861 2013-07-29 17:21:29 <TD> the new bitcoinj "getting started" tutorial shows how to register callbacks for any given depth, but perhaps i should explicitly call out that it could potentially run twice.
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863 2013-07-29 17:22:39 <gmaxwell> all this stuff can be discerned from the paper, but if you are very "task driven" ... "How do I do X? Tell me nothing else!" you won't catch that stuff.
864 2013-07-29 17:22:45 <TD> that's true
865 2013-07-29 17:22:58 <TD> the thought of people treating a bitcoin API the same as any regular API fills me with fear
866 2013-07-29 17:23:08 <gmaxwell> (it's sometimes hard even walking task driven people through some of these corner cases on a 1:1 basis)
867 2013-07-29 17:23:27 <gmaxwell> With the _right_ api you could probably hide a lot of the corner cases but not one would want to use it.
868 2013-07-29 17:23:31 <TD> i want to put a gigantic <blink> tag at the top of every webpage saying "YOU ARE HANDLING MONEY, SO DO IT RIGHT IDIOT"
869 2013-07-29 17:23:40 <gwillen> the bad thing about writing bitcoin code may be that you lose money if you get it wrong
870 2013-07-29 17:23:45 <gwillen> but the good thing is it will get fixed real fast
871 2013-07-29 17:23:50 <jgarzik> Yeah, that's an interesting bitcoin side-effect
872 2013-07-29 17:23:58 <jgarzik> It is /too easy/ to write a website that handles money, now :)
873 2013-07-29 17:24:03 <gwillen> yeah
874 2013-07-29 17:24:24 <gmaxwell> gwillen: well, it really cranks the "attackers are adaptive" to another level: a lot of software will fail if the user does something unexpected, but in bitcoin the user gets _paid_ for exploiting it more often than most things. :)
875 2013-07-29 17:24:32 <gwillen> right
876 2013-07-29 17:24:42 <TD> yeah. requiring someone to manually convert data from your web app into wire transfers by hand does and wait several days, does at least avoid some potential screwups :)
877 2013-07-29 17:24:45 <gwillen> people aren't good at thinking adversarially, they're really spectacularly bad at it
878 2013-07-29 17:24:56 <gwillen> but when money shows up, suddenly it becomes obvious why you need to
879 2013-07-29 17:25:19 <nsh> +1
880 2013-07-29 17:25:30 <gmaxwell> TD: right, and you could give a bitcoin API that immitated that kind of high latency process.. But, if you know that you need that interface you're smart enough that you don't.
881 2013-07-29 17:25:37 <TD> indeed
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885 2013-07-29 17:32:05 <TD> right. health warning added to the tutorial.
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889 2013-07-29 17:40:12 * BlueMatt has never read satoshi's full paper
890 2013-07-29 17:40:24 <BlueMatt> so...I guess I fall into the category of building implementations without reading it
891 2013-07-29 17:40:31 <TD> you never read the paper?
892 2013-07-29 17:40:39 <BlueMatt> well, most of it
893 2013-07-29 17:40:53 <TD> boggle :)
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898 2013-07-29 17:46:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: wtf. it's like 8 pages of light reading! :P
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908 2013-07-29 17:54:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: exactly, and if you skim you can skip 7.5 of them
909 2013-07-29 17:54:07 * BlueMatt -> home
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938 2013-07-29 18:50:08 <JyZyXEL> is there a longer version of the whitepaper that explains why 10 minute blocks were chosen?
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941 2013-07-29 18:52:41 <sipa> JyZyXEL: no, the answer is "satoshi's gut feeling"
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943 2013-07-29 18:53:24 <sipa> (but the reasoning is that the block delay should be significantly higher than the propagation delay through the network, and satoshi expected this to be close to a minute, afaik)
944 2013-07-29 18:53:36 <midnightmagic> JyZyXEL: Nope.
945 2013-07-29 18:53:39 <JyZyXEL> i wonder if there are any comments in the source code for it :p
946 2013-07-29 18:53:48 <sipa> not afaik
947 2013-07-29 18:54:00 <JyZyXEL> / magic number
948 2013-07-29 18:54:10 <fanquake> Find a copy of the 0.1 source
949 2013-07-29 18:54:13 <midnightmagic> JyZyXEL: But amiller and others figured out that a 10-minute block target is good for consensus out to.. what was it again? The moon? :)
950 2013-07-29 18:54:55 <JyZyXEL> and mars needs a separate blockchain
951 2013-07-29 18:54:58 <sipa> midnightmagic: sounds reasonable; afaik the moon is a bit more than a lightsecond away
952 2013-07-29 18:55:00 <midnightmagic> apparently.
953 2013-07-29 18:55:08 <JyZyXEL> the first legit altchain
954 2013-07-29 18:55:43 <amiller> midnightmagic, mars
955 2013-07-29 18:55:54 <midnightmagic> amiller: Was it that far?
956 2013-07-29 18:56:00 <midnightmagic> lol pretty awesome.
957 2013-07-29 18:56:15 <amiller> planetary intergalactic
958 2013-07-29 18:57:18 <midnightmagic> amiller: I've been telling people the moon. Guess I better update my brain.
959 2013-07-29 18:57:32 <sipa> ;;calc 401*10**6 / 300000
960 2013-07-29 18:57:33 <gribble> 1336.66666667
961 2013-07-29 18:58:07 <sipa> ;;calc 56*10**6 / 300000
962 2013-07-29 18:58:08 <gribble> 186.666666667
963 2013-07-29 18:58:11 <amiller> midnightmagic, the moon is too close and there's no real interest in colonizing the moon 'cause there's no resource there, but a mars colony is pretty compelling
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965 2013-07-29 18:58:24 <sipa> amiller: there's up to a 3 minute delay to mars...
966 2013-07-29 18:58:26 <amiller> they'll need women, oxygen, inflatable shelter, and digital currency
967 2013-07-29 18:58:51 <sipa> assuming line-of-sight communication
968 2013-07-29 18:59:11 <amiller> sipa, but 22 minutes away at maximum
969 2013-07-29 18:59:20 <Scrat> sipa: try 6 to 26
970 2013-07-29 18:59:35 <sipa> amiller: how could that work with 10-minute blocks...?
971 2013-07-29 19:00:42 <amiller> sipa, it doesn't, would need longer for that :/
972 2013-07-29 19:00:48 <midnightmagic> no hashing on mars maybe
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974 2013-07-29 19:01:11 <JyZyXEL> i wonder if someone has done a good article on the pro/cons of faster block times
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976 2013-07-29 19:01:35 <JyZyXEL> well, mostly why its not such a great idea
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978 2013-07-29 19:01:39 <sipa> amiller: i don't get it; you just said that the 10-minute block target was enough for communication with mars?
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981 2013-07-29 19:02:20 <amiller> sipa, eh, i wanted to talk about mars more than i wanted to correct midnightmagic
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983 2013-07-29 19:02:27 <sipa> oh
984 2013-07-29 19:02:35 <fanquake> JyZyXEL If you were actually interested in the early source code. This is 0.01 ALPHA https://mega.co.nz/#!mEEGAAya!bGTQHBKz9qi2rQIv0Y6tb0ldbBgLCMhEwRq7NMBGN9A
985 2013-07-29 19:02:43 <midnightmagic> amiller: Did you not work out the satellite-including volume of a shell re: propagation delays and useful consensus convergence with your old idea?
986 2013-07-29 19:03:11 <midnightmagic> "old"
987 2013-07-29 19:03:44 <amiller> i got stuck for a few reasons on that approach, mainly because of the difficulty of selecting a global "attacker size" and additionally having no model for how spam is avoided
988 2013-07-29 19:04:19 <midnightmagic> ah, okay
989 2013-07-29 19:04:36 <amiller> (basically bitcoin works well because banning IP addresses is pretty effective, but i can't easily quantify that)
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992 2013-07-29 19:07:50 <JyZyXEL> fanquake: thank you i will read it trough
993 2013-07-29 19:09:00 <midnightmagic> perhaps actual measurements would be needed using an effective sample. if you ever tool up any patches, i'll run them.
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1042 2013-07-29 19:58:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: poke
1043 2013-07-29 20:00:17 <sipa> your mempool ressurection fix... it now iterates backwards through the block, but pushes the transactions in opposite order on the list
1044 2013-07-29 20:00:31 <sipa> so it really only matters in case more than one block is disconnected
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1046 2013-07-29 20:03:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: correct
1047 2013-07-29 20:05:06 <sipa> ok
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1051 2013-07-29 20:06:22 <petertodd> BlueMatt: So it adds all transactions in the correct order to meet dependencies right?
1052 2013-07-29 20:06:28 <BlueMatt> in theory
1053 2013-07-29 20:06:33 <petertodd> Cool
1054 2013-07-29 20:07:04 <sipa> but... they are ressurected in the same order they were in the block
1055 2013-07-29 20:07:19 <sipa> right, that's correct
1056 2013-07-29 20:07:33 <sipa> as they should only depend on previous ones, and not on ones already in the mempool
1057 2013-07-29 20:07:41 <BlueMatt> yes
1058 2013-07-29 20:07:44 <sipa> but there could be conflicts with those in the mempool
1059 2013-07-29 20:07:52 <sipa> no, there can't
1060 2013-07-29 20:07:58 <sipa> ok!
1061 2013-07-29 20:08:10 <petertodd> Good, previous IIRC you had the order within the block correct, but newest block first, I think.
1062 2013-07-29 20:08:19 <nsh> it's only advanced temporal mechanics, they told me... what could go wrong, they ask me...
1063 2013-07-29 20:08:25 <nsh> *asked
1064 2013-07-29 20:10:03 <petertodd> Hmm... yet another reason to encourage a depth-based anyone-can-spend mechanism unfortunately...
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1066 2013-07-29 20:10:59 <petertodd> Not that we can stop this stuff totally: eg correct horse and other well known seckeys.
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1071 2013-07-29 20:14:10 <sipa> hmm, when removing transactions from the mempool after connecting a block
1072 2013-07-29 20:14:18 <sipa> mempool.remove(tx);
1073 2013-07-29 20:14:24 <sipa> mempool.removeConflicts(tx);
1074 2013-07-29 20:14:35 <sipa> how could the transaction that used to be in the chain be in the mempool?
1075 2013-07-29 20:14:41 * sipa believes he wrote this code
1076 2013-07-29 20:15:10 <petertodd> connecting a block happens when we get a brand new block
1077 2013-07-29 20:15:38 <petertodd> So remove(tx) just takes it away from the mempool, leaving children in th emempool. removeConflicts() handles the case that the tx is new, and conflcits with stuff in the mempool.
1078 2013-07-29 20:15:49 <sipa> my god
1079 2013-07-29 20:16:11 <sipa> i'm way too sleepy to be thinking about this
1080 2013-07-29 20:16:23 <petertodd> Heh, don't worry, I already had to for my mempool rewrite...
1081 2013-07-29 20:16:49 <petertodd> It's actually kinda frustrating stuff: these calls need to pass more info to the mempool as to why stuff is being removed.
1082 2013-07-29 20:16:56 <petertodd> Or maybe another design entirely...
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1147 2013-07-29 21:51:48 <sipa> jgarzik, petertodd: a write-up of the changes involved in headers-first: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/f95728def991725c293046ef4ff2a178f46e0b80
1148 2013-07-29 21:52:13 <sipa> (the first part is technical, and probably the least interesting)
1149 2013-07-29 21:52:26 * jgarzik queues
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