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  13 2013-07-30 00:48:38 <Diablo-D3> http://missingm.co/2013/07/identical-droplets-in-the-digitalocean-regenerate-your-ubuntu-ssh-host-keys-now/
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  18 2013-07-30 00:57:08 <gjs278> definitely something to keep in mind, I won't image the keys if I ever get around to making virtual machines one day
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 405 2013-07-30 14:07:41 <jgarzik> sipa, are there any obvious to-dos blocking merging, for your watch-only address pull?
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 407 2013-07-30 14:07:49 <jgarzik> sipa, light testing seems OK here
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 409 2013-07-30 14:09:14 <sipa> jgarzik: not really, i think
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 413 2013-07-30 14:11:43 <jgarzik> sipa, does 'listunspent' provide any way to distinguish between watch-only and spendable?
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 417 2013-07-30 14:12:12 <sipa> jgarzik: no, perhaps it should
 418 2013-07-30 14:12:16 <jgarzik> sipa, AvailableCoins() just returns all txouts, spendable or watch, AFAICS
 419 2013-07-30 14:12:32 <sipa> jgarzik: it takes a boolean to select only spendable or not
 420 2013-07-30 14:13:10 <jgarzik> sipa, related,
 421 2013-07-30 14:13:18 <jgarzik> -AvailableCoins(vCoins);
 422 2013-07-30 14:13:27 <jgarzik> +AvailableCoins(vCoins, true);
 423 2013-07-30 14:13:39 <jgarzik> sipa, that changes onlyconfirmed NOT requireSpendable.  Intended?
 424 2013-07-30 14:13:46 <jgarzik> sipa, AvailableCoins has two optional bool args
 425 2013-07-30 14:13:55 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 426 2013-07-30 14:14:08 <sipa> jgarzik: nice catch, not intended
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 428 2013-07-30 14:20:14 <jgarzik> char fYes;
 429 2013-07-30 14:20:18 <jgarzik> ssValue >> fYes;
 430 2013-07-30 14:20:30 * jgarzik could have sworn we support serializing booleans directly
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 432 2013-07-30 14:22:56 <sipa> jgarzik: the serialization of primitive types is done by just memory-copying them (*DIE*)... and bools do not have well-defined memory representation i think (and it may be much larger than 1 byte if it does)
 433 2013-07-30 14:23:52 <edcba> and what about 2 bools...
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 438 2013-07-30 14:30:51 <jgarzik> sipa, bools have a well-defined memory representation, but not a well-defined size :)
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 440 2013-07-30 14:31:02 <jgarzik> (zero is false, non zero of any value or size is true)
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 442 2013-07-30 14:31:20 <jgarzik> (in terms of strict compiler/ABI definitions)
 443 2013-07-30 14:31:53 <sipa> jgarzik: sure about that; the semantics for converting to an integer are defined
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 449 2013-07-30 14:35:49 <Vinnie_win> price is inching up so whatever you guys are doing, keep doing it
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 463 2013-07-30 14:47:35 <runeks> Anyone have a testnet address that I can test the watch-only functionality with? I can't find any block explorers that support testnet (blockexplorer.com is outdated)
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 474 2013-07-30 15:00:09 <TD> runeks: there's testnet.btclook.com but it's not that great
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 476 2013-07-30 15:00:48 <runeks> TD: Thanks. I can't find my address on it though. I'm just gonna move testnet wallet.dat and try to generate some new coins.
 477 2013-07-30 15:01:45 <lianj> http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
 478 2013-07-30 15:03:29 <runeks> lianj: Cool!
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 486 2013-07-30 15:16:40 <jgarzik> Some people focused on tracking the bitcoins used at Silk Road.  An interesting blow-by-blow from Krebs, on how some cyber-stalkers tried to set him up as a druggie: http://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/07/mail-from-the-velvet-cybercrime-underground/
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 493 2013-07-30 15:29:29 <TD> jgarzik: lol. krebs is such a badass. even if he does believe that censoring payments is some silver bullet for fighting crime
 494 2013-07-30 15:30:58 <petertodd> jgarzik: nifty, I was wondering when someone would start doing third-party buys on silk road...
 495 2013-07-30 15:31:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if only the USPS had P2SH^2
 496 2013-07-30 15:32:06 <petertodd> <slow clap>
 497 2013-07-30 15:32:36 <petertodd> of course, if they did, that'd just make it even harder to deny that the shipment was his...
 498 2013-07-30 15:32:37 <gmaxwell> hah. but man, I didn't want to know about that, yet another reason to worry about random people getting my mailing address.
 499 2013-07-30 15:32:56 <petertodd> indeed, unfortunately I was stupid about whois ages ago... oh well
 500 2013-07-30 15:33:01 <petertodd> I can always move
 501 2013-07-30 15:33:03 <petertodd> :P
 502 2013-07-30 15:35:09 <jgarzik> Being a property owner, you're just f*cked
 503 2013-07-30 15:35:21 <jgarzik> My name and address are listed in public records all over the place
 504 2013-07-30 15:35:22 runeks has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 505 2013-07-30 15:35:25 <petertodd> For sure
 506 2013-07-30 15:35:46 runeks has joined
 507 2013-07-30 15:35:50 <petertodd> Hmm... you could always rent from yourself, and claim you live elsewhere :P
 508 2013-07-30 15:36:01 <jgarzik> Only way to avoid that is HNW tricks like having corporations own your assets
 509 2013-07-30 15:36:07 <jgarzik> yep
 510 2013-07-30 15:36:19 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 511 2013-07-30 15:36:20 <gmaxwell> doesn't prevent someone from sending it there otherwise. The problem with having a corp own your home is crap like not getting the homestead property tax exclusion.
 512 2013-07-30 15:36:21 <petertodd> tricks == legal fees...
 513 2013-07-30 15:36:36 <jgarzik> best security is to rent for cash from someone else
 514 2013-07-30 15:36:47 <jgarzik> and own property as a Nevada etc. corporation if you must
 515 2013-07-30 15:36:57 <jgarzik> being a Property Owner makes you findable and assailable, ultimately
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 517 2013-07-30 15:37:13 <TD> i am thinking it's only a matter of time before some researcher is able to cluster the silk road wallets. co-operation with the major exchanges and rounding up of a bunch of dealers/buyers is surely the next step
 518 2013-07-30 15:37:14 <kjj> meh.  the homestead credit on my house is like $250 a year
 519 2013-07-30 15:37:56 <kjj> the harder part is finding a bank that will write a mortgage to your corporation
 520 2013-07-30 15:38:51 <petertodd> TD: if you think that's likely you basically think everyone will be snared - easywallet and inputs.io make it dead easy to mix any wallet with their funds anonymously
 521 2013-07-30 15:38:51 <jgarzik> OK, this is a crypto/P2P problem.  How to arrange a chain of semi-trusted property ownership, where A owns B's property, B owns C's property, C owns A's property etc. in a way that (a) shrouds ownership but (b) preserves property ownership wealth :)
 522 2013-07-30 15:39:06 <petertodd> jgarzik: zerocoin for land titles?
 523 2013-07-30 15:39:10 <jgarzik> exactly :)
 524 2013-07-30 15:39:30 <jgarzik> maybe if the titles were stored in a chain.....
 525 2013-07-30 15:39:33 <TD> easywallet and inputs.io are very new. plus, i doubt it will be used as the only evidence and i doubt most people who show up in the records/SAR dumps would actually be investigated or prosecuted
 526 2013-07-30 15:39:42 <TD> but sure. that's one more excellent reason to not use a bitbank
 527 2013-07-30 15:39:44 <petertodd> jgarzik: I've got a relative who's a land titles lawyer, I'll tell her that...
 528 2013-07-30 15:39:57 <TD> (inputs.io is going to get shut down at some point)
 529 2013-07-30 15:40:03 <petertodd> TD: and instawallet before that, and other services
 530 2013-07-30 15:40:26 <jgarzik> TD, it drives me crazy when coindesk.com reviews bitcoin apps, and completely fails to mention which ones require centralized websites, and which ones (bitcoinj-based) are fully decentralized.
 531 2013-07-30 15:40:36 <petertodd> TD: and just getting a payment from a bitbank puts you in that group, so you're not any safer
 532 2013-07-30 15:40:37 <jgarzik> Some portions of the community Just Don't Care about being decentralized :(
 533 2013-07-30 15:40:41 <TD> most people don't care/can't tell the difference. that review was weak anyway. it more or less just summarised feature sets
 534 2013-07-30 15:41:05 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 535 2013-07-30 15:41:11 <petertodd> TD: not to mention trust-free mixing... especially if it gets automated
 536 2013-07-30 15:41:16 <TD> petertodd: if i were doing that work i'd just look for owners of addresses that came directly from the SR wallet. unless the SR guys are really excellent bitcoin programmers these days, i am willing to bet they leak data like a seive
 537 2013-07-30 15:41:29 <TD> we're talking about the  status quo, right, not theoretical future code
 538 2013-07-30 15:41:33 <TD> anyway, food time
 539 2013-07-30 15:41:50 <petertodd> TD: we keep on seeing attacks getting done by people who are likely very good Bitcoin programmers, and we don't have a !@#$ clue who is doing it.
 540 2013-07-30 15:42:16 <jgarzik> petertodd, insights can be gained with additional effort… but ultimately that is a problem that cannot be solved
 541 2013-07-30 15:42:29 <TD> you are not the police and you're not talking about blockchain analysis
 542 2013-07-30 15:42:34 <jgarzik> petertodd, without compromising bitcoin privacy/pseudononimity completely, at least
 543 2013-07-30 15:42:35 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 544 2013-07-30 15:43:05 <kjj> the NSA could probably bust SR wide open.  they presumably have copies of all dynamic page loads and would be able to follow addresses around
 545 2013-07-30 15:43:10 <petertodd> jgarzik: My point is we are *not* the only people out there who understand Bitcoin well, to assume SR doesn't have good bitcoin programmers is naive.
 546 2013-07-30 15:43:34 <petertodd> jgarzik: possibly true too, but we do not know one way or the other
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 548 2013-07-30 15:43:54 <jgarzik> any large Tor dragnet should be able to home in on SR, IMO
 549 2013-07-30 15:44:13 <jgarzik> but sure, there are smart people all over
 550 2013-07-30 15:44:15 <petertodd> jgarzik: Well, home in on their servers, which != them.
 551 2013-07-30 15:45:27 GMP has joined
 552 2013-07-30 15:45:28 <petertodd> jgarzik: Mexican drug lords manage to get the engineering talent to build submarines as capable as WWI subs, and increasingly WWII, and they do it for a lot less money too... they also have decentralized packet radio systems - helps when you can kidnap cellphone engineers.
 553 2013-07-30 15:46:20 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 554 2013-07-30 15:46:28 <petertodd> It's the standard Tor argument that criminal enterprises already have lots of ways to get good anonymity... what Tor provides is a level playing field.
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 556 2013-07-30 15:49:05 <jgarzik> Random:  I wondered the other day if anybody has ever done a design for a high latency, high bandwidth network -- like that which could be implemented using flash drives conveyed across the country by long-haul truckers or airplanes
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 558 2013-07-30 15:49:38 <gwillen> jgarzik: yes, the Deep Space Network has such a design
 559 2013-07-30 15:49:39 <jgarzik> you would never observe the network over the public Internet
 560 2013-07-30 15:49:57 <gwillen> I mean, it's obviously carried over actual radio waves
 561 2013-07-30 15:50:02 <jgarzik> and you can sent/receive huge amounts of data… as long as you're willing to wait a week for it
 562 2013-07-30 15:50:05 <gwillen> but it's designed to cope with stupidly large latency
 563 2013-07-30 15:50:25 <gwillen> it uses a NAK-based system for bulk data transfer
 564 2013-07-30 15:50:27 <gwillen> and retransmission
 565 2013-07-30 15:52:34 <gmaxwell> IIRC freenet was talking about some kind of usb relayed mode at some point. I don't recall if it was proposed for freenet proper or something else.
 566 2013-07-30 15:52:35 pinkee is now known as realazthat
 567 2013-07-30 15:52:44 <petertodd> jgarzik: Not only designed, but implemented: FidoNet bbs messaging...
 568 2013-07-30 15:52:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: and UUCP
 569 2013-07-30 15:53:47 <jgarzik> petertodd, haha, point :)
 570 2013-07-30 15:53:48 <petertodd> jgarzik: One laptop per child project has done work in that field too, IIRC at one point they were using UUCP for something
 571 2013-07-30 15:53:53 * jgarzik -> WWIVnet veteran
 572 2013-07-30 15:54:41 * petertodd started using BBSes when all the oldies on BBSs were talking about how they were dying off...
 573 2013-07-30 15:55:00 <gwillen> ahah, I found it: http://public.ccsds.org/publications/archive/727x0b2s.pdf
 574 2013-07-30 15:55:06 <gwillen> the CCSDS File Delivery Protocol
 575 2013-07-30 15:55:17 <gwillen> this is how spacecraft (used to?) send each other files
 576 2013-07-30 15:55:47 <petertodd> gwillen: guarantee you they still do, and the vendors proudly talk about the "heritage" status of their CCSDS implementations
 577 2013-07-30 15:55:51 <gwillen> haha
 578 2013-07-30 15:55:54 * gwillen nods
 579 2013-07-30 15:56:17 <gwillen> I interned at Northrop Grumman Space Technology many years ago, when I was a freshman in college
 580 2013-07-30 15:56:21 <gwillen> I had to give a presentation on this protocol
 581 2013-07-30 15:56:22 <petertodd> gwillen: their competitors warn that CCSDS is new and still poorly tested technology :P
 582 2013-07-30 15:56:26 <gwillen> hahahahhaah
 583 2013-07-30 15:56:46 <gwillen> actually, I guess when I was a freshman in college, this protocol _was_ new and poorly tested technology
 584 2013-07-30 15:56:50 <gwillen> I wonder how it's held up.
 585 2013-07-30 15:57:15 <petertodd> heh
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 598 2013-07-30 16:12:33 <runeks> sipa, jgarzik: Testing a mixed watch-only wallet showed no bugs. Sending amounts higher than what is available in addresses for which you have the private keys results in a "Signing transaction failed" error.
 599 2013-07-30 16:13:51 <jgarzik> runeks, thanks much for the testing.  please post these results to the pull req.
 600 2013-07-30 16:14:03 <runeks> jgarzik: Done
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 638 2013-07-30 17:18:40 <sipa> ;;genrate 9800
 639 2013-07-30 17:18:41 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 9800.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 31256960.7278, is 0.157676362201 BTC per day and 0.00656984842505 BTC per hour.
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 642 2013-07-30 17:25:47 <c0rw1n> ;;genrate 2330
 643 2013-07-30 17:25:48 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2330.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 31256960.7278, is 0.0374883595846 BTC per day and 0.00156201498269 BTC per hour.
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 658 2013-07-30 17:40:37 <bmcgee> So Thailand… anyone bothered?
 659 2013-07-30 17:41:58 <jgarzik> yawn
 660 2013-07-30 17:42:07 <bmcgee> not into lady boys then?
 661 2013-07-30 17:42:11 <jgarzik> one data point does not a "complete ban in Thailand" make
 662 2013-07-30 17:42:17 <bmcgee> lol
 663 2013-07-30 17:42:25 <jgarzik> single sourced story getting hyped
 664 2013-07-30 17:42:48 <bmcgee> yeah the comments section do a good job of ripping the article to pieces
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 666 2013-07-30 17:43:50 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 667 2013-07-30 17:43:53 <sipa> it's also not at all a ban
 668 2013-07-30 17:43:53 <edcba> nice we may still be able to do sexual tourism with bitcoins
 669 2013-07-30 17:44:02 <sipa> it's the national bank considering it illegal
 670 2013-07-30 17:44:15 <sipa> there is no court or legislative body involved, afaik
 671 2013-07-30 17:47:45 <midnightmagic> which article's comments are you talking about?
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 674 2013-07-30 17:48:00 <midnightmagic> the story is in like a dozen places now.
 675 2013-07-30 17:48:54 <midnightmagic> bmcgee: ^^
 676 2013-07-30 17:49:10 <bmcgee> 2 secs let me open it again
 677 2013-07-30 17:49:13 <bmcgee> found it via reddit
 678 2013-07-30 17:49:23 <bmcgee> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/10210022/Bitcoins-banned-in-Thailand.html
 679 2013-07-30 17:50:58 <edcba> advisement...
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 681 2013-07-30 17:52:35 <edcba> they advised it was illegal ? :)
 682 2013-07-30 17:53:00 <edcba> smells fishy
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 684 2013-07-30 17:54:49 <Krellan> ;;genrate 3840
 685 2013-07-30 17:54:50 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 3840.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 31256960.7278, is 0.0617833909033 BTC per day and 0.00257430795431 BTC per hour.
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 687 2013-07-30 17:55:21 <edcba> how much is a gpu ?
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 691 2013-07-30 17:56:35 <sipa> edcba: between 1 and 800 MH/s or so
 692 2013-07-30 17:56:47 <edcba> ;;genrate 500
 693 2013-07-30 17:56:48 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 500.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 31256960.7278, is 0.00804471235721 BTC per day and 0.000335196348217 BTC per hour.
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 696 2013-07-30 17:57:35 <edcba> a block every 10 years ?
 697 2013-07-30 17:57:58 <edcba> not taking account reward halving...
 698 2013-07-30 17:57:59 <edcba> damn lol
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 708 2013-07-30 18:07:34 <Krellan> yes, the real-world payout is even much less than what ;;genrate will estimate, because it doesn't take into account 1) halving block rewards over time and 2) everybody else adding more hashpower over time.
 709 2013-07-30 18:08:15 <arioBarzan> sipa: could fRequireSpendable get avoided by locking watch-only coins in a list similar to CCryptoKeyStore::setLockedCoins, which could be called CCryptoKeyStore::setWatchedCoins?
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 714 2013-07-30 18:19:15 <sipa> arioBarzan: i find that interface very ugly
 715 2013-07-30 18:19:38 <sipa> arioBarzan: as it requires a single context-independent state to be maintained
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 717 2013-07-30 18:20:23 <sipa> is there a problem with fRequireSpendable, that you'd want to avoid it?
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 719 2013-07-30 18:22:51 <sipa> also, watched/spendable is not a user-settable property; it's the result of how they were matched
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 722 2013-07-30 18:24:29 <arioBarzan> sipa: as an adventurous dev, I find pull/2121 plus a lockedCoins list for watch-only addresses less complicated to undertand the code, comparing with your solution. Besides, such a list might cause less overhead.
 723 2013-07-30 18:25:21 <sipa> i don't understand how it would work
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 725 2013-07-30 18:26:27 <arioBarzan> sipa: However, I'm not in a position to see any problem with fRequireSpendable. I tested today, and I got error: {"code":-4,"message":"Signing transaction failed"}
 726 2013-07-30 18:27:01 <sipa> who would set this watched coins list?
 727 2013-07-30 18:27:19 <arioBarzan> not the user
 728 2013-07-30 18:27:33 <arioBarzan> it should be set automatically when wallet loads
 729 2013-07-30 18:27:38 <sipa> to what?
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 731 2013-07-30 18:28:25 <arioBarzan> we just add those coins to a second locklist.
 732 2013-07-30 18:28:35 <sipa> so how do you do the matching?
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 734 2013-07-30 18:29:04 <sipa> when a new transaction is seen, how do you avoid passing information to/from the matching code in script to know if it's spendable or not?
 735 2013-07-30 18:29:51 <sipa> imho, that's a very ugly workaround for avoiding a single parameter
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 737 2013-07-30 18:30:12 <sipa> as you need more state that needs to be kept consistent with the rest of the data structures
 738 2013-07-30 18:30:31 <sipa> and you still need to distinguish between spendable and non-spendable when matching
 739 2013-07-30 18:32:21 <arioBarzan> we already distinguish spendables with lockunspent.
 740 2013-07-30 18:32:40 <sipa> yes, and it requires extra state
 741 2013-07-30 18:32:43 <jgarzik> arioBarzan, that is a temporary list, rebuild at each startup
 742 2013-07-30 18:32:46 <sipa> which makes sense if it comes from a user
 743 2013-07-30 18:32:52 <jgarzik> *rebuilt
 744 2013-07-30 18:33:02 <arioBarzan> jgarzik: I noticed that it is tomporary.
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 746 2013-07-30 18:33:33 <sipa> i personally would rather get rid of the lockedunspent global too, and have it passed as an argument into the code to build a list of spendables
 747 2013-07-30 18:33:56 <sipa> (so for example the RPC locked and GUI locked aren't necessarily shared)
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 749 2013-07-30 18:34:45 <sipa> but please, let's no keep extra state that must be kept consistent with the rest of the data
 750 2013-07-30 18:34:58 <sipa> there are just two use cases
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 752 2013-07-30 18:37:24 <arioBarzan> are the coins saved in wallet.dat?
 753 2013-07-30 18:37:32 <sipa> no
 754 2013-07-30 18:38:04 <sipa> but you still haven't answered: how would you know whether a new coin should be added to the list, when a new incoming transaction occurs?
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 756 2013-07-30 18:38:21 <sipa> you need a way for the matching logic in script to distringuish between the two possibilities
 757 2013-07-30 18:39:09 <arioBarzan> I'm too confused. I need to learn much more to keep up in such discusions.
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 760 2013-07-30 18:40:05 <sipa> jgarzik: hmmz, adding a flag in listunspent is more work than i thought
 761 2013-07-30 18:40:36 <sipa> one way would be have IsMine (in all its versions) return some enum {NO, YES_SPENDABLE, YES_WATCHONLY}
 762 2013-07-30 18:41:07 <sipa> the easier to implement solution is have listunspent take an argument to require spendability or not
 763 2013-07-30 18:41:37 <jgarzik> sipa, the latter seems reasonable, and was along the lines of what I was presuming
 764 2013-07-30 18:42:15 <jgarzik> sipa, IsMine() would be nice, but for practical reasons you would be touching (or at least auditing) a long of key callsites
 765 2013-07-30 18:42:22 <jgarzik> *lot of
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 767 2013-07-30 18:43:25 <sipa> jgarzik: well, i'm already touching those sites - they now all got a fRequireSpendable flag
 768 2013-07-30 18:44:38 <jgarzik> true
 769 2013-07-30 18:45:09 <sipa> arioBarzan: if the code is hard to follow, and you have ways to improve that (for example, by adding comments about things you found out while learning), that's very welcome
 770 2013-07-30 18:45:23 <sipa> arioBarzan: i don't think anyone will claim the code is very well structured
 771 2013-07-30 18:46:27 <kjj> sipa: the code is fiendishly hard for non-C++ programmers to follow, but comments won't help that.
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 774 2013-07-30 18:48:05 <sipa> my god... http://coinchoose.com/
 775 2013-07-30 18:48:51 <sipa> i'm most amazed by the fact that they're all using scrypt
 776 2013-07-30 18:49:06 <sipa> i wonder whether they have at least higher memory usage that litecoin's...
 777 2013-07-30 18:49:08 <gjs278> using jquery 2 is such aids
 778 2013-07-30 18:49:12 patcon has joined
 779 2013-07-30 18:49:23 <gjs278> I can't believe they couldn't at least put the minimal fallbacks for older browsers so it just doesn't make the page entirely white
 780 2013-07-30 18:49:36 <jgarzik> as long as their not hit by botnets (something easy to accomplish once their size reaches a level), it keeps a tiny little moat for a tiny little altcoin
 781 2013-07-30 18:49:45 <jgarzik> scrypt, that is
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 783 2013-07-30 18:51:21 * nsh thinks
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 785 2013-07-30 18:51:39 <gjs278> there's too little cash in any of these unfortunately. you can only gpu mine at best and earn like $3 a day on any of these altcoins
 786 2013-07-30 18:52:23 <arioBarzan> sipa: in CWallet::AvailableCoins we have:   if (!(pcoin->IsSpent(i)) && IsMine(pcoin->vout[i]) && !IsLockedCoin((*it).first, i) && pcoin->vout[i].nValue > 0) vCoins.push_back(COutput(pcoin, i, pcoin->GetDepthInMainChain()));
 787 2013-07-30 18:52:23 <sipa> i don't understand what 'profitability' mean when the hash algorithm is not the same
 788 2013-07-30 18:52:49 <sipa> arioBarzan: yes, but that's the wallet side of things
 789 2013-07-30 18:52:50 <arioBarzan> sipa: couldn't we there check watch-only locked also?
 790 2013-07-30 18:53:02 <sipa> arioBarzan: well not if you don't know what is watch-only
 791 2013-07-30 18:53:13 <sipa> and the matching of scripts with the keystore happens in script
 792 2013-07-30 18:53:39 <sipa> you need *some* way of communicating - either from or to - the matching logic there that an output is watch-only
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 794 2013-07-30 18:54:53 <sipa> and at that point, it is a property of the output that it is watch-only
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 796 2013-07-30 18:55:02 <sipa> it's not something you can check after the fact
 797 2013-07-30 18:55:02 <arioBarzan> sipa: when we lock those unspent coins, why we don't face similar problem of matching script ?
 798 2013-07-30 18:55:32 <sipa> arioBarzan: because it's not the script matching logic that needs to decide whether a coin is locked or not, but the user!
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 800 2013-07-30 18:56:52 <sipa> being spendable or not is a property of the coin
 801 2013-07-30 18:56:58 <sipa> being locked or not is a user setting
 802 2013-07-30 18:57:33 <sipa> and yes, you could deal with it in a similar way, if you had a guaranteed-up-to-date list of unspendable coins in your wallet
 803 2013-07-30 18:57:36 <arioBarzan> sipa: but it doesn't have to be a user setting to lock those watch-only coins. the code do that automaticaly.
 804 2013-07-30 18:57:41 <sipa> but now you've just moved the problem
 805 2013-07-30 18:57:59 <sipa> now you need a way for the script matching logic to inform the wallet that a certain coin is not spendable
 806 2013-07-30 18:58:28 <sipa> which makes no sense, as it's the wallet that should ask things from the matcher, not the other way around
 807 2013-07-30 18:58:29 <arioBarzan> we already have it, no need for nothing new.
 808 2013-07-30 18:58:40 <sipa> ...
 809 2013-07-30 18:58:53 <sipa> sorry, i think you need to understand the code better before we can continue this discussion
 810 2013-07-30 18:58:58 <sipa> it makes no sense
 811 2013-07-30 18:58:59 <arioBarzan> ok
 812 2013-07-30 18:59:40 <sipa> < arioBarzan> sipa: but it doesn't have to be a user setting to lock those watch-only coins. the code do that automaticaly.
 813 2013-07-30 19:00:04 <sipa> ^- that 'automatically' part now becomes the problem, and i guarantee you that it'll be much uglier than what we have now
 814 2013-07-30 19:00:05 <arioBarzan> sipa I meant code (could) do that
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 817 2013-07-30 19:02:17 <arioBarzan> sipa: I appreciate your clarification. I study the code more and will come back to you if I got a proper hang of it > Thanks
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 856 2013-07-30 20:08:48 <rdymac> MagicalTux, does the confirmation email for new users in the wiki work?
 857 2013-07-30 20:09:14 <sipa> have you checked your spam folder?
 858 2013-07-30 20:09:40 <Luke-Jr> rdymac: you're not the only one to have problems
 859 2013-07-30 20:09:44 <rdymac> it is not for me, it is for a few new users asking for the email
 860 2013-07-30 20:10:09 <rdymac> they had even paid the fee becore receiving the confirmation email
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 862 2013-07-30 20:10:19 <Luke-Jr> probably someone needs to volunteer to maintain the technical end of the wiki
 863 2013-07-30 20:10:31 <Luke-Jr> I think MagicalTux is too busy to give it the attention it needs
 864 2013-07-30 20:10:32 <Luke-Jr> :/
 865 2013-07-30 20:10:35 <rdymac> Luke-Jr, is MagicalTux up to the problem?
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 867 2013-07-30 20:10:59 <Luke-Jr> rdymac: usually it's a topic for #bitcoin-wiki, but he's here too
 868 2013-07-30 20:11:09 <Luke-Jr> I'm sure he's capable of it, just lacking in time
 869 2013-07-30 20:11:21 <rdymac> oh sorry, didn't know about that channel
 870 2013-07-30 20:12:13 <rdymac> Luke-Jr: I mean, "does he know about the existance of the problem" not if he is able to fix it
 871 2013-07-30 20:13:46 <Luke-Jr> rdymac: I'm pretty sure he's aware
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 873 2013-07-30 20:15:00 <rdymac> ok! thanks. I'll tell that to the users
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 875 2013-07-30 20:19:58 <Luke-Jr> rdymac: if they have control over their email server, it may be a SPF issue
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 943 2013-07-30 22:23:48 <Luke-Jr> first country to ban Bitcoin: https://bitcoin.co.th/trading-suspended-due-to-bank-of-thailand-advisement/
 944 2013-07-30 22:24:17 <lianj> good luck to them
 945 2013-07-30 22:24:52 <sipa> been mentioned here before; afaik it's just the national bank refusing to give a license because they consider bitcoin illegal
 946 2013-07-30 22:25:11 <Luke-Jr> same thing?
 947 2013-07-30 22:25:29 <sipa> the bank does not write the law
 948 2013-07-30 22:25:29 <c0rw1n> oh so it's just business as usual : can't run a hosted for-profit exchange legally
 949 2013-07-30 22:25:54 <sipa> they can stop an exchange, sure, but them saying that trading bitcoin is illegal has no meaning
 950 2013-07-30 22:26:13 <sipa> but IANA(thay)L
 951 2013-07-30 22:26:30 <Luke-Jr> hm
 952 2013-07-30 22:27:00 <c0rw1n> suffices that someone encodes "THAI KING SUCKS LOL" in the blockchain and boom it's illegal
 953 2013-07-30 22:27:32 <sipa> (maybe they are right that it is illegal according to the thai law, but at this point, that's just the bank's opinion)
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 957 2013-07-30 22:37:35 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 958 2013-07-30 22:37:49 <petertodd> c0rwin: 96eaa9436b05e0cc1932e0a04866656daa11e348d0bdff94989b7aded1f21183
 959 2013-07-30 22:38:19 copumpkin has joined
 960 2013-07-30 22:39:32 CodeShark has joined
 961 2013-07-30 22:39:33 <petertodd> (I don't quite have the heart to put it in the UTXO set permanently)
 962 2013-07-30 22:40:04 ToryJujube has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 963 2013-07-30 22:40:16 <c0rw1n> i'm not going to
 964 2013-07-30 22:40:37 <petertodd> c0rwin: that was a txid fwiw
 965 2013-07-30 22:41:18 <c0rw1n> blockchain doesn't recognize it
 966 2013-07-30 22:41:23 <c0rw1n> erm
 967 2013-07-30 22:41:27 <c0rw1n> blockchain.info doesn't recognize it
 968 2013-07-30 22:41:42 <petertodd> it's a 1-of-2 multisig, blockchain doesn't show them until they get mined
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 971 2013-07-30 22:42:02 <petertodd> the other key is the compressed version of the correct horse addr
 972 2013-07-30 22:42:55 <iwilcox> Heh, so you just *really* made Bitcoin illegal in Thailand?
 973 2013-07-30 22:43:34 <petertodd> iwilcox: Not quite - I did give anyone the ability to take it out of the UTXO set. Pretty close though.
 974 2013-07-30 22:43:51 <petertodd> iwilcox: Remind me to put "THAI KING SUCKS LOL" in the coinbase of my next alt-coin.
 975 2013-07-30 22:44:11 <petertodd> Also remind me not to visit thailand...
 976 2013-07-30 22:44:21 <iwilcox> Let the record show that there was a window in which the only basis for the "illegal" claim was a crappy exchange with a domain registered since June and zero substantiation of the claim.
 977 2013-07-30 22:44:32 <lianj> its mined
 978 2013-07-30 22:44:50 <petertodd> nice!
 979 2013-07-30 22:48:19 <c0rw1n> is it worth announcing?
 980 2013-07-30 22:49:43 <c0rw1n> hmm
 981 2013-07-30 22:49:57 <iwilcox> IMHO it'd be better left until after the Thai gummint make a sensible decision :)
 982 2013-07-30 22:50:45 <sipa> we need to start storing block and utxo records xored with some stream cipher output
 983 2013-07-30 22:50:48 <c0rw1n> petertodd hey, do kim-jong next
 984 2013-07-30 22:51:57 <sipa> the gunmint? :o
 985 2013-07-30 22:54:17 <petertodd> sipa: sadly
 986 2013-07-30 22:54:47 <petertodd> sipa: and make bare checkmultisig and pay-to-pubkey non-standard
 987 2013-07-30 22:55:31 <petertodd> c0rw1n: donate 1mBTC 1JVdnaAbfGTbdatLMtLaXX5QMiHZJXp4DD
 988 2013-07-30 22:56:24 denom has joined
 989 2013-07-30 22:56:26 <c0rw1n> 'k, wait
 990 2013-07-30 22:57:09 <c0rw1n> sent
 991 2013-07-30 22:57:23 <petertodd> also, while we're having fun, for those people running dumb brainwallet address scanners, you can make $50 if you add checkmultisig support
 992 2013-07-30 22:59:12 one_zero has joined
 993 2013-07-30 22:59:16 <c0rw1n> petertodd 2c6c66ca4f47d672b3298e9f65fe66d02bb3f297c3b2725753ff66182c63e559 <- tx id
 994 2013-07-30 22:59:27 <c0rw1n> (not seen in chain yet)
 995 2013-07-30 22:59:43 <c0rw1n> tho with a fee of .005 it better get there fast
 996 2013-07-30 23:00:13 <petertodd> c0rw1n: weird, still not seeing it, nor do I see it on bc.i
 997 2013-07-30 23:01:29 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 999 2013-07-30 23:01:41 <c0rw1n> bah it'll get there eventually
1000 2013-07-30 23:02:20 <petertodd> reminds me: I was thinking that P2Pool shares would make for a good tx propagation metric - p2pool forwards transactions that peers don't have along with shares
1001 2013-07-30 23:02:37 gavinandresen has joined
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1003 2013-07-30 23:02:37 gavinandresen has joined
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1005 2013-07-30 23:02:59 wizkid057 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1006 2013-07-30 23:03:10 <petertodd> has some interesting side-effects too: if you mine on p2pool and accept non-standard transactions, your shares will contain them, and conversely your mempool will get non-std txs from miners that also mine non-std
1007 2013-07-30 23:03:31 <petertodd> basically it's a tx distribution mechanism using PoW rather than fees/priority to prevent spam
1008 2013-07-30 23:04:02 <petertodd> it'd be a nice way to propagate replace-by-fee doublespends too
1009 2013-07-30 23:04:12 <petertodd> up to 50KB of tx's per share
1010 2013-07-30 23:04:42 <petertodd> c0rw1n: can you give me getrawtransaction 2c6c66ca4f47d672b3298e9f65fe66d02bb3f297c3b2725753ff66182c63e559?
1011 2013-07-30 23:04:58 <c0rw1n> dunno how to do that in multibit :/
1012 2013-07-30 23:05:14 <petertodd> c0rw1n: ah, might not be able too :(
1013 2013-07-30 23:05:37 <c0rw1n> there's the raw data, but can't copy it to paste
1014 2013-07-30 23:05:39 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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1016 2013-07-30 23:05:45 <c0rw1n> i'm _not_ copying that by hand
1017 2013-07-30 23:06:00 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1018 2013-07-30 23:06:22 <c0rw1n> it'll get there eventually
1019 2013-07-30 23:06:31 <petertodd> ha, not being able to copy that is a serious misfeature
1020 2013-07-30 23:06:35 <c0rw1n> yes
1021 2013-07-30 23:06:42 <petertodd> file a bug report
1022 2013-07-30 23:07:22 <petertodd> which vout # was my address in?
1023 2013-07-30 23:07:29 <petertodd> I can still write the transaction after all
1024 2013-07-30 23:08:28 <petertodd> (hmm... probably only #0 to #1 of course...)
1025 2013-07-30 23:08:58 starsoccer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1026 2013-07-30 23:09:23 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1027 2013-07-30 23:09:41 <c0rw1n> what's a vout? the "outpoint" ?
1028 2013-07-30 23:09:49 <petertodd> yeah
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1030 2013-07-30 23:09:53 <sipa> likely
1031 2013-07-30 23:10:08 <c0rw1n> is that safe to paste in the channel?
1032 2013-07-30 23:10:23 <petertodd> yup
1033 2013-07-30 23:10:27 <sipa> there may be some weak privacy issues
1034 2013-07-30 23:10:39 <c0rw1n> bah i' not hiding with those addresses
1035 2013-07-30 23:10:57 <c0rw1n> you wouldn't see my `isp here if i was
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1038 2013-07-30 23:11:37 gavinandresen has joined
1039 2013-07-30 23:12:26 <c0rw1n> f5d8fdfd0acc596820bdb70d671133ac6f8872b4d8f6fa34119e1182709f6c1f
1040 2013-07-30 23:13:08 <c0rw1n> (if i copied that right)
1041 2013-07-30 23:14:24 <petertodd> c0rwin: that's the txid of where the money came from, I'm looking for the index of the entry for where the money was going
1042 2013-07-30 23:15:53 <c0rw1n> that's the only thing in there except for your address, my address and the 2c6c66ca4f47d672b3298e9f65fe66d02bb3f297c3b2725753ff66182c63e559
1043 2013-07-30 23:16:07 <c0rw1n> multibit says nothing more
1044 2013-07-30 23:17:15 wondiws has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1045 2013-07-30 23:17:46 <petertodd> pff, that's not very impressive
1046 2013-07-30 23:18:28 <sipa> we need spv bitcoin-qt :)
1047 2013-07-30 23:20:33 robocoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1048 2013-07-30 23:21:07 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1052 2013-07-30 23:23:24 <petertodd> c0rw1n: http://pastebin.com/e03GUESN <- one of these two transations should be valid
1053 2013-07-30 23:23:32 wamatt has joined
1054 2013-07-30 23:23:37 <petertodd> c0rw1n: blockchain.info/pushtx will send it
1055 2013-07-30 23:23:45 wamatt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1056 2013-07-30 23:24:16 wamatt has joined
1057 2013-07-30 23:24:39 <petertodd> sipa: I know, it's too bad no-one is working on it... :P
1058 2013-07-30 23:25:50 <c0rw1n> blockchain.info/pushtx says Unable To find all tx inputs: [2c6c66ca4f47d672b3298e9f65fe66d02bb3f297c3b2725753ff66182c63e559]
1059 2013-07-30 23:26:04 <petertodd> yeah, well it won't work until that txid is mined
1060 2013-07-30 23:26:19 theo` is now known as _zed
1061 2013-07-30 23:26:19 <petertodd> I'm surprised with that fee it's still not outon the network, very strange
1062 2013-07-30 23:26:35 <petertodd> what does your client show?
1063 2013-07-30 23:26:38 <c0rw1n> multibit still says "seen by 1 peer"
1064 2013-07-30 23:26:47 <c0rw1n> also "not seen in chain"
1065 2013-07-30 23:27:04 <petertodd> crazy, sounds like you have a bad peer
1066 2013-07-30 23:27:50 wizkid057 has joined
1067 2013-07-30 23:27:52 <c0rw1n> i have a quantity of bitcoin clients running on my subnet, and some share their addresses ...
1068 2013-07-30 23:27:59 <petertodd> maybe a north-korean peer?
1069 2013-07-30 23:28:16 <petertodd> hmm... possibly you hit a DoS trigger someone? that's odd
1070 2013-07-30 23:28:23 <petertodd> can multibit tell you who your peer is?
1071 2013-07-30 23:28:35 <c0rw1n> i suspect the tx was seen by one of my other wallets which then forgot to forward it for any reason
1072 2013-07-30 23:28:55 <c0rw1n> seems that no
1073 2013-07-30 23:29:37 <petertodd> multibit sucks, even android wallet can show your peer ip's
1074 2013-07-30 23:29:43 <petertodd> and you shouldhave more peers than just one
1075 2013-07-30 23:30:22 <c0rw1n> previous transaction in my wallet say "seen by 2 peers", it's my mining pay from bitminter
1076 2013-07-30 23:30:52 <petertodd> huh, maybe someone's trying to screw with SPV?
1077 2013-07-30 23:31:12 <c0rw1n> maybe i screwed something up with my wallets
1078 2013-07-30 23:31:19 <petertodd> heck, I myself have two nodes running right now that silently ignore bloom filter anything, although that shouldn't affect tx propagation
1079 2013-07-30 23:31:52 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1081 2013-07-30 23:33:19 <sipa> petertodd: bitcoin-qt doesn't show peer ip'd either...
1082 2013-07-30 23:33:30 <sipa> (well, via the rpc console, but that's cheating)
1083 2013-07-30 23:33:49 <sipa> we should start calling rpc commands "cheat codes"
1084 2013-07-30 23:34:00 <sipa> people would be a lot more excited about them
1085 2013-07-30 23:34:01 <petertodd> sipa: so your saying the developers only use cheat codes?
1086 2013-07-30 23:34:06 <petertodd> sipa: I can live with that
1087 2013-07-30 23:34:16 <sipa> petertodd: no, we use bitcoind :p
1088 2013-07-30 23:34:23 <sipa> which is an evil havkers.tool
1089 2013-07-30 23:34:31 <sipa> evil hackers tool
1090 2013-07-30 23:34:56 <petertodd> no it's not! I added a splashscreen to my bitcoind, which means it's not a hacking tool
1091 2013-07-30 23:35:19 <c0rw1n> even metasploit has a splash screen :/
1092 2013-07-30 23:35:22 <sipa> with headers-based syncing (probably a better name than headers-first, as it's really simultaneous), spv comes oretty close
1093 2013-07-30 23:35:26 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1094 2013-07-30 23:36:07 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, and headers-first might even wind up being "headers is some bizzare random order controlled by fancy (non-)interactive proof" syncing
1095 2013-07-30 23:36:27 cads has joined
1096 2013-07-30 23:36:37 <sipa> hmm?
1097 2013-07-30 23:37:19 robocoin has joined
1098 2013-07-30 23:37:57 <petertodd> sipa: er, wait, I was thinking headers-first as in newest block header first, got ahead of myself...
1099 2013-07-30 23:40:41 <petertodd> WTF: 1C7zdTfnkzmr13HfA2vNm5SJYRK6nEKyq8 compressed correct horse address, and two weeks ago someone put 21BTC in it, moved two hours later...
1100 2013-07-30 23:41:03 pecket has joined
1101 2013-07-30 23:41:32 <sipa> petertodd: read this: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/6b1c4dc55c00b88fc8dd394bfd46615c15879d61
1102 2013-07-30 23:41:43 <sipa> (yes, there's a typo in the title)
1103 2013-07-30 23:42:11 peck2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1104 2013-07-30 23:43:12 <petertodd> should clarify that orphans aren't relevant *for the purposes of initial synchronization*
1105 2013-07-30 23:43:46 <sipa> read on :)
1106 2013-07-30 23:44:33 <sipa> wait
1107 2013-07-30 23:44:46 <sipa> by orphan, i mean "block without parent"
1108 2013-07-30 23:45:19 <petertodd> ah, I really meant... er, what's the accepted term these days?
1109 2013-07-30 23:45:48 <sipa> orphan block :P
1110 2013-07-30 23:46:17 <sipa> (but the source code has never used orphan block in that meaning, so i don't feel obliged to use it in commit messages either)
1111 2013-07-30 23:46:47 <petertodd> yeah, come up with a new term and put it in that commit message if you could - lets get that stupid name out of the collective conciousness
1112 2013-07-30 23:47:06 <sipa> extinct block, stale block, inactive block, side chain, ...
1113 2013-07-30 23:47:14 <sipa> tons of names have been proposed, but none stick
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1117 2013-07-30 23:47:57 <petertodd> I never knew the fascination with orphans in English literature would extend so far...
1118 2013-07-30 23:48:23 gritball has joined
1119 2013-07-30 23:48:48 <sipa> yeah, charles dickens started something...
1120 2013-07-30 23:49:01 <petertodd> IMO lets go for dead, on the basis that we really really really hope a large number of the dead don't rise again
1121 2013-07-30 23:49:16 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1122 2013-07-30 23:49:31 <sipa> and dead blocks in a chain that grows to be the active chain again... zombie blocks?
1123 2013-07-30 23:49:44 <sipa> jesus blocks?
1124 2013-07-30 23:49:54 <petertodd> indeed, but we're politically correct and treat zombies like we would any other
1125 2013-07-30 23:50:05 <sipa> of course
1126 2013-07-30 23:50:38 <sipa> vitacism (discrimination based on aliveness) will not be tolerated
1127 2013-07-30 23:51:04 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1128 2013-07-30 23:51:17 <petertodd> Agreed: blocks are now known to be dead if the live chain bypasses them, and we all fear the zombie apocalypse. But if the zombie apocalypse does happen, we shall treat all zombies with love and respect."
1129 2013-07-30 23:51:41 <sipa> in other words: history is written by the victor
1130 2013-07-30 23:51:51 <petertodd> I wish I could do a pull-req on your git comment so I could add exactly that. :P
1131 2013-07-30 23:51:56 <petertodd> yes, that too
1132 2013-07-30 23:51:59 <sipa> (victor hugo?)
1133 2013-07-30 23:52:11 <Diablo-D3> _the_ victor hugo
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1136 2013-07-30 23:53:23 <sipa> petertodd: in any case, executive summary: instead of getblocks, do header syncing, and in a background process, fetch blocks from peers in a moving window along the known best chain
1137 2013-07-30 23:53:43 <sipa> (except the background process is really the same thread)
1138 2013-07-30 23:54:13 <petertodd> yeah, seems all reasonable to me
1139 2013-07-30 23:54:40 sserrano44 has joined
1140 2013-07-30 23:54:41 <petertodd> so mining code hasn't been touched right, IE it is based on pindexBest only?
1141 2013-07-30 23:55:53 <sipa> yes, but see the note about pindexBest during a reorg
1142 2013-07-30 23:56:13 <petertodd> hmm... so the logic is still to retrieve a whole block when we get an INV message for that block right?
1143 2013-07-30 23:56:26 <sipa> if not in IBD, yes
1144 2013-07-30 23:57:06 <petertodd> do we ever adv a header INV?
1145 2013-07-30 23:57:10 toffoo has joined
1146 2013-07-30 23:57:15 <sipa> no
1147 2013-07-30 23:57:24 [\\\] has joined
1148 2013-07-30 23:57:32 <sipa> no such mechanism exists
1149 2013-07-30 23:57:35 <sipa> you just INV a block hash
1150 2013-07-30 23:57:43 <petertodd> oh right, that makes sense
1151 2013-07-30 23:57:47 <sipa> the peer is free to ask for just the header or for the whole block
1152 2013-07-30 23:58:05 Thepok has joined
1153 2013-07-30 23:58:13 <sipa> though i think it would make sense to change block invs to just block headers
1154 2013-07-30 23:58:14 <petertodd> hmm... we should have a distinction though in some way, so peers can have only headers, rather than whole blocks
1155 2013-07-30 23:58:42 <sipa> you can perfectly well do headers-only
1156 2013-07-30 23:58:53 <sipa> when you get an inv, ask for headers
1157 2013-07-30 23:58:58 <sipa> instead of a getdata
1158 2013-07-30 23:59:24 <petertodd> right, point is, how should I advertise that all I have is headers?
1159 2013-07-30 23:59:33 <sipa> hmm
1160 2013-07-30 23:59:34 <sipa> unsure
1161 2013-07-30 23:59:55 <sipa> why should anyone be interested in that, if you can't even prove the block it's for is valid?