1 2013-08-01 00:00:04 <sipa> but you need some IPC mechanism
   2 2013-08-01 00:00:54 <sipa> and imho, the easiest choice for that is the p2p protocol itself
   3 2013-08-01 00:01:05 <sipa> which makes everything so nice uniform
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   5 2013-08-01 00:06:10 <BlueMatt> except for the duplicate node issue.....
   6 2013-08-01 00:07:21 <sipa> yes
   7 2013-08-01 00:07:53 <sipa> and as i said... it's not really about the implwmentation; running a wallet against a full node should code-wise be easy
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   9 2013-08-01 00:08:54 <sipa> but if you're going to bother to split them up, and you don't care about the bit of extra ram that uses, i think just running it against a separate spv node is a very nice solution
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  37 2013-08-01 00:50:16 <sipa> runeks: i think i found the problem with those rescans not working; watch-only addresses have no birthtime tracked, so if all non-watch-only keys in your wallet were very new, it would not rescan most of the chain
  38 2013-08-01 00:50:32 <sipa> pullreq is updated
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 134 2013-08-01 04:56:40 <jgarzik> http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/07/31/2133216/more-encryption-is-not-the-solution
 135 2013-08-01 04:56:57 <jgarzik> That attack is becoming quite feasible
 136 2013-08-01 05:04:48 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it's far easier to just require the other end provides you all the information...
 137 2013-08-01 05:04:51 <phantomcircuit> :/
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 156 2013-08-01 06:08:49 <arioBarzan> if we don't have a public key, but we have the corresponding bitcoin address, is it possible to calculate that public key? I think, we shouldn't be able to go back and calculate public key. The whole point was that when we spent, we reveal the public key. am I right?
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 163 2013-08-01 06:17:22 <gavinandresen> the address is RIPEMD160(SHA256(public key)), so no, you cannot go from address to public key
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 168 2013-08-01 06:24:16 <arioBarzan> So in recent sipa's commit ( https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/02e10bf92bcb693288740ff7af0422d4fa0572d8 ) I wonder why he used CTxDestination for a watch-only address, instead of CKeyID.
 169 2013-08-01 06:25:31 <arioBarzan> That would make sense, if imported a public key, instead of importing only the address lacking public key.
 170 2013-08-01 06:35:51 <gavinandresen> he used a CTxDestination because you might want to watch a P2SH multi-key address… you generally don't care about payments that involve a particular key, but payments to a particular arrangement of keys
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 172 2013-08-01 06:36:51 <gavinandresen> (the address-is-one-key case is all we have today, but in the future, hopefully, many payments will be to or from multi key addresses)
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 175 2013-08-01 06:40:58 <arioBarzan> gavinandresen: thanks, I see.
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 193 2013-08-01 07:07:53 <sipa> arioBarzan: also, there was a bug that sometimes caused the rescan to be skipped; it should be fixed now
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 217 2013-08-01 08:02:09 <arioBarzan> could anyone give me an P2SH address from blockchain who received a payment sometime early when P2SH introduced?
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 235 2013-08-01 08:32:20 <Megz> Why is this code so dirty?
 236 2013-08-01 08:34:36 <jeremias> you mean the bitcoin-qt code?
 237 2013-08-01 08:36:35 <Megz> bitcoin-master, it's really oddly structured, with a mixture of globals, global functions, inconsistent locking, stuff seemingly randomly done in OO style, a few tidbits of modern boost code, mixed with raw memory operations where standard container stuff should be used, random C-macros all over,
 238 2013-08-01 08:36:45 <Megz> its a real mess, how did this even happen?
 239 2013-08-01 08:37:17 cypher has joined
 240 2013-08-01 08:38:00 <Luke-Jr> Megz: inherited from Satoshi, and gradually being cleaned up
 241 2013-08-01 08:39:40 fs98 has joined
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 243 2013-08-01 08:42:20 <Megz> Ok but not gradually enough, cause if I worked on it a few months it would be teutonically aligned and perfect like Qt codebase or such, strange to see so many people work on it and that it could remain as it is
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 248 2013-08-01 08:51:40 <CodeShark> do it, then
 249 2013-08-01 08:51:43 <CodeShark> talk is cheap :)
 250 2013-08-01 08:51:48 <CodeShark> I'd love to see someone do that
 251 2013-08-01 08:52:18 <CodeShark> just make sure to get your changes reviewed and to structure your commits so that they are easy to follow and test
 252 2013-08-01 08:53:16 <Megz> no that is not the case, I should not have to be the only one who realizes this
 253 2013-08-01 08:53:30 <CodeShark> you're not the first one to realize this
 254 2013-08-01 08:53:35 <CodeShark> sorry to disappoint you
 255 2013-08-01 08:54:36 <Megz> who realizes how to clean it up
 256 2013-08-01 08:54:55 <Luke-Jr> Megz: I'm not sure you understand that yourself.
 257 2013-08-01 08:55:13 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin is not like any other software to ever exist.
 258 2013-08-01 08:55:18 <Megz> Luke-Jr, of course I do, it's not algorithmic stuff
 259 2013-08-01 08:55:23 <CodeShark> so then do it
 260 2013-08-01 08:55:40 <Megz> why don't you do it too?
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 262 2013-08-01 08:55:46 <Luke-Jr> he is
 263 2013-08-01 08:55:56 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark is responsible for quite a bit of cleanup effort
 264 2013-08-01 08:56:32 <fanquake> Megz https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits?author=CodeShark
 265 2013-08-01 08:57:28 <CodeShark> Megz, the way this works is you just dive in and code up something up and commit it
 266 2013-08-01 08:57:35 <CodeShark> and then we can discuss what you did
 267 2013-08-01 08:57:57 <CodeShark> feel free :)
 268 2013-08-01 08:58:16 <CodeShark> until you do that chances are you won't be taken very seriously
 269 2013-08-01 08:58:22 <Megz> why the lack of comments?
 270 2013-08-01 09:00:15 <CodeShark> you think we can't use some more help in this effort?
 271 2013-08-01 09:00:23 <CodeShark> go ahead - write them
 272 2013-08-01 09:01:04 <CodeShark> anyone can be a critic
 273 2013-08-01 09:01:34 <CodeShark> but to actually contribute something requires skill
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 275 2013-08-01 09:03:50 <Megz> CodeShark, do you know what every function starting in main.cpp does for example?
 276 2013-08-01 09:04:16 <CodeShark> for the most part I have a pretty decent idea, although I haven't gone through each and every line in detail
 277 2013-08-01 09:08:04 <Megz> come to #bitcoin-comments
 278 2013-08-01 09:11:29 <gavinandresen> Megz: Michael Gronager extensively cleaned up and refactored the bitcoin codebase, his work is here: https://github.com/libcoin/libcoin
 279 2013-08-01 09:11:49 <gavinandresen> I don't know that he's had any success in getting people to trust the result, though.
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 287 2013-08-01 09:31:11 <CodeShark> on a separate topic, I'm working on a library to support thin signing agents. One of the biggest obstacles I'm currently facing is the fact that outpoint values are neither stored nor used to sign transactions. This means that not only does the signer require the value to be sent to it separately (which in general requires a full node) - but even if it has the value, the only way for it to verify it is by also stor
 288 2013-08-01 09:31:11 <CodeShark> ing the full transaction with that output so it can verify its hash.
 289 2013-08-01 09:32:04 <CodeShark> ideally, I'd like signing nodes to be able to receive only transactions containing outputs it can spend and updates on when they get spent
 290 2013-08-01 09:32:44 <CodeShark> then even without any access to a validation node, the only possible attacks that could exist are withholding attacks
 291 2013-08-01 09:33:05 <CodeShark> it could never be fooled into thinking a 1000 btc output is actually only 1 btc
 292 2013-08-01 09:33:45 <CodeShark> so I'd like to open up a BIP for this - however, can't seem to find any clear way to do this without a hard fork
 293 2013-08-01 09:37:50 <CodeShark> there's no simple way for a signing node to query other nodes for a particular transaction (unless it's a mempool transaction), which means the only way to sync the signing node is via a trusted validation node
 294 2013-08-01 09:37:58 <CodeShark> this, IMHO, is a serious flaw in the protocol
 295 2013-08-01 09:39:13 <CodeShark> with the output values stored in the inputs (although this does lead to a larger block chain size), a signing node only requires blocks from the moment the receiving key was first used.
 296 2013-08-01 09:40:20 <CodeShark> it could then use a truncated SPV verification mode, which would be more than sufficient FAPP
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 298 2013-08-01 09:40:59 <CodeShark> as things currently stand, only receiving nodes can fully use SPV
 299 2013-08-01 09:41:02 <CodeShark> not signing nodes
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 301 2013-08-01 09:42:11 <CodeShark> signing nodes might still need to claim outputs generated hundreds of thousands of blocks ago
 302 2013-08-01 09:45:16 <CodeShark> no comments? :)
 303 2013-08-01 09:46:16 <kinlo> what do you mean by signing nodes?
 304 2013-08-01 09:46:25 <kinlo> those who can spend transactions/
 305 2013-08-01 09:46:31 <CodeShark> yes
 306 2013-08-01 09:46:33 <CodeShark> essentially
 307 2013-08-01 09:46:34 <kinlo> they can be SPV, I don't see the problem
 308 2013-08-01 09:46:46 <CodeShark> using bloom filters? or?
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 310 2013-08-01 09:46:50 <kinlo> yes
 311 2013-08-01 09:47:08 <kinlo> you set up a bloom filter so you do download all relevant transactions
 312 2013-08-01 09:47:09 <CodeShark> you still need a connection to a full node
 313 2013-08-01 09:47:11 <kinlo> and you store them
 314 2013-08-01 09:47:24 <CodeShark> I'm envisioning signing nodes that are completely off the p2p network
 315 2013-08-01 09:47:34 <CodeShark> to send a transction, you send it directly to the recipient, the recipient broadcasts it
 316 2013-08-01 09:47:37 <kinlo> you can't really be off the p2p network
 317 2013-08-01 09:47:41 <CodeShark> sure yo ucan
 318 2013-08-01 09:47:46 <kinlo> you need to know which transactions are sent to you
 319 2013-08-01 09:47:54 <kinlo> you need that information
 320 2013-08-01 09:47:56 <CodeShark> you can receive that from message queues
 321 2013-08-01 09:48:04 <kinlo> from what?
 322 2013-08-01 09:48:07 <freewil> armory does this
 323 2013-08-01 09:48:11 <kinlo> you mean a 3th party service
 324 2013-08-01 09:48:21 <kinlo> armory is spv with bloom filtering no?
 325 2013-08-01 09:48:26 <CodeShark> or a service you run in your own organization
 326 2013-08-01 09:48:46 <kinlo> like a stratum server
 327 2013-08-01 09:48:51 <kinlo> like electrum does
 328 2013-08-01 09:48:55 <kinlo> that works too
 329 2013-08-01 09:49:07 <kinlo> that basicly gives you the same information over a different protocol
 330 2013-08-01 09:49:19 <kinlo> so in a way you are connected to the p2p network, just using a proxy
 331 2013-08-01 09:49:51 <freewil> armory allows you to create an offline transaction by signing it from an air-gapped machine and then you can put it on a usb stick or something and broadcast it from another machine
 332 2013-08-01 09:50:09 <CodeShark> bitcoind allows this as well
 333 2013-08-01 09:50:15 <CodeShark> but doesn't have a GUI for it
 334 2013-08-01 09:50:18 <kinlo> that still requires armory to know the unspent transactions
 335 2013-08-01 09:50:27 <kinlo> so connectivity to the p2p network to download those
 336 2013-08-01 09:50:31 <CodeShark> yes
 337 2013-08-01 09:50:36 <freewil> yeah, armory is just more user-friendly
 338 2013-08-01 09:50:44 <kinlo> ofcourse if I receive funds today, get my database uptodate and then go offline
 339 2013-08-01 09:50:58 <kinlo> I can still use that same database after 2 years to create a transaction
 340 2013-08-01 09:51:16 randy-waterhouse has joined
 341 2013-08-01 09:51:26 <kinlo> you just need access to the p2p network to receive the new transactions to you
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 345 2013-08-01 09:52:13 <CodeShark> any company that accepts bitcoin transactions will most likely want to keep the processing of received bitcoins separate from the signing of those bitcoins
 346 2013-08-01 09:52:22 <CodeShark> just like banks work now
 347 2013-08-01 09:52:41 <CodeShark> it's a completely separate process to receive funds and to sign them
 348 2013-08-01 09:53:01 <kinlo> sure
 349 2013-08-01 09:53:31 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, it's actually fairly easy to do that now
 350 2013-08-01 09:53:40 <CodeShark> given that you already have machines that validate received bitcoins, it probably makes more sense to sync your signing nodes off the p2p network
 351 2013-08-01 09:54:07 <kinlo> CodeShark: you can validate your received codes with spv too... there is no need for full validation
 352 2013-08-01 09:54:09 <CodeShark> I mean off of - as in not connected directly to
 353 2013-08-01 09:54:19 <CodeShark> right, received coins isn't a problem
 354 2013-08-01 09:54:26 <kinlo> sending isn't either
 355 2013-08-01 09:54:38 <CodeShark> it's signing that's an issue because only the tx output contains the value, not the input
 356 2013-08-01 09:54:56 <CodeShark> which inevitably complicates the logic for the signing agent
 357 2013-08-01 09:55:01 <CodeShark> not saying it can't be done - of course it can be
 358 2013-08-01 09:55:02 <kinlo> I don't follow
 359 2013-08-01 09:55:06 <CodeShark> but the workaround is a little ugly
 360 2013-08-01 09:55:12 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 361 2013-08-01 09:55:21 <kinlo> what is exactly the problem that a signing node cannot use spv according to you?
 362 2013-08-01 09:55:35 <CodeShark> if the inputs held the value, you could query only back to the first received coins at that key
 363 2013-08-01 09:55:46 <CodeShark> which means you could download only blocks starting at that height
 364 2013-08-01 09:56:02 <phantomcircuit> kinlo, the difficulty is making sure the outputs you want to spend haven't already been spent
 365 2013-08-01 09:56:07 <phantomcircuit> iirc spv isn't 100% about that
 366 2013-08-01 09:56:15 <phantomcircuit> but it doesn't much matter
 367 2013-08-01 09:56:23 <kinlo> right, so ignore that problem :)
 368 2013-08-01 09:56:35 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 369 2013-08-01 09:56:35 <phantomcircuit> well no
 370 2013-08-01 09:56:38 <phantomcircuit> be aware of it
 371 2013-08-01 09:56:38 <kinlo> if your outputs are spent by yourself, you can just note that in your database
 372 2013-08-01 09:56:53 <kinlo> if they are spent by someone else, you leaked your private key and you have a much bigger problem
 373 2013-08-01 09:56:56 <phantomcircuit> as it stands the bitcoind send function effectively never generates a transaction with a spent output
 374 2013-08-01 09:57:17 <CodeShark> there's also the issue of synching multiple signing nodes that hold the same signing keys
 375 2013-08-01 09:57:20 a28hz has joined
 376 2013-08-01 09:57:33 <CodeShark> you might want to be able to sign from more than just one device
 377 2013-08-01 09:59:04 <CodeShark> also, you might be one of several parties to an m-of-n transaction that doesn't go through
 378 2013-08-01 09:59:17 <CodeShark> in which case you need to be aware the output hasn't been spent
 379 2013-08-01 09:59:47 <CodeShark> or you need to spend it over to another key
 380 2013-08-01 10:00:29 <CodeShark> anyhow, many of these issues would be much simpler from a logic perspective on the signing node end if inputs also held value
 381 2013-08-01 10:00:36 <CodeShark> I know it can be done without
 382 2013-08-01 10:00:45 <CodeShark> just questioning whether it's worth the additional cost in complexity
 383 2013-08-01 10:01:36 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, automated systems do not benefit from multisig at all
 384 2013-08-01 10:01:58 <CodeShark> phantomcircuit: sure they do - you can institute a policy
 385 2013-08-01 10:02:06 <CodeShark> i.e. place a maximum-per-day threshold
 386 2013-08-01 10:02:23 <CodeShark> then you'd need two or more of your signing nodes enforcing this policy hacked
 387 2013-08-01 10:02:27 <phantomcircuit> it's a lot easier to do that without multisig
 388 2013-08-01 10:02:51 <CodeShark> no, without multisig it means a hacker that gains access to one machine can immediately sign over all its outputs to a key it controls
 389 2013-08-01 10:03:08 <phantomcircuit> realistically a system which has a bitcoin node that doesn't do anything else is going to be ridiculously difficult to break into if setup properly
 390 2013-08-01 10:03:35 <CodeShark> we're not only talking about physical security - there's also the issue of employee leaks and other such stuff
 391 2013-08-01 10:03:56 <CodeShark> once a key is compromised (by anyone) it is immediately vulnerable
 392 2013-08-01 10:04:00 <CodeShark> there's no time for mitigation
 393 2013-08-01 10:04:24 <CodeShark> with multisig if you can discover the breach in time you can do something before the attacker really gains access
 394 2013-08-01 10:05:13 <CodeShark> and we're still talking about automated systems here (which will require access by at least one employee)
 395 2013-08-01 10:05:39 <CodeShark> once we start talking about manual confirmation and notifications for multifactor auth, it becomes indispensable
 396 2013-08-01 10:06:06 <CodeShark> anyhow, I don't think any reasonable person would disagree that m-of-n support is a good idea
 397 2013-08-01 10:06:52 <CodeShark> "you don't really need it" arguments amount to nothing more than the argument that bitcoin is still immature so it doesn't need to comply with the highest levels of financial security
 398 2013-08-01 10:07:49 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, a good idea in general yes
 399 2013-08-01 10:07:59 <CodeShark> if a small change in the protocol makes supporting these endeavors much simpler, it is at least worth considering
 400 2013-08-01 10:08:00 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 401 2013-08-01 10:08:01 <phantomcircuit> a magic bullet to the issue of automated systems being compromised?
 402 2013-08-01 10:08:03 <phantomcircuit> hardly
 403 2013-08-01 10:08:12 <CodeShark> nobody said it's a magic bullet, though - that's a strawman
 404 2013-08-01 10:08:29 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the larger issue with systems like that getting compromised isn't the bitcoin node but the database being subtly compromised
 405 2013-08-01 10:08:35 <phantomcircuit> and slowly leaking funds over time
 406 2013-08-01 10:08:49 <CodeShark> what database?
 407 2013-08-01 10:08:51 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, a few people have said that, no need to shame them
 408 2013-08-01 10:09:05 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the one telling the automated signing nodes what to do
 409 2013-08-01 10:09:08 <CodeShark> ok, well I'm not one of those people so you don't need to argue against that position with me
 410 2013-08-01 10:09:36 paraipan has joined
 411 2013-08-01 10:10:00 <CodeShark> phantomcircuit: indeed, the institution of the policy (which means sending to each signing node a specific policy) would also require some sort of secure protocol
 412 2013-08-01 10:10:48 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, i think that's pretty fundamentally wrong
 413 2013-08-01 10:10:52 <CodeShark> i.e. no single individual has access to all facilities
 414 2013-08-01 10:10:55 <phantomcircuit> what it requires is auditing and control
 415 2013-08-01 10:10:59 <phantomcircuit> which is expensive
 416 2013-08-01 10:11:11 <CodeShark> and many are willing to pay for it
 417 2013-08-01 10:11:21 <CodeShark> especially when hundreds of millions or billions of dollars are on the line
 418 2013-08-01 10:11:21 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, no, many say they're willing to pay for it
 419 2013-08-01 10:11:38 <phantomcircuit> when it comes time to actually pay?
 420 2013-08-01 10:11:40 <phantomcircuit> not so much
 421 2013-08-01 10:11:59 <CodeShark> in any case, this is a separate discussion from where we started
 422 2013-08-01 10:12:21 <CodeShark> which, IMO, is a much more difficult one where simple solutions are harder to come by
 423 2013-08-01 10:12:48 <phantomcircuit> agreed
 424 2013-08-01 10:12:54 macboz_ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 425 2013-08-01 10:12:56 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: have you any opinion on sipa's watch-only commit ( https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/02e10bf92bcb693288740ff7af0422d4fa0572d8 ) ? I tested yours at pull/2121, and now I'm bulding sipa's one in order to test that as well.
 426 2013-08-01 10:14:10 <CodeShark> I haven't actually run it but I commend sipa for having done that. I think in the short term it's a workable solution for some, but currently I'm working on another solution to this problem which I think addresses it more fundamentally
 427 2013-08-01 10:15:02 coeus has joined
 428 2013-08-01 10:15:12 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: you mean, multiple wallets?
 429 2013-08-01 10:15:46 <CodeShark> no, although I do think multiwallet support is a better short-term solution
 430 2013-08-01 10:16:04 <CodeShark> I'm trying to separate validation/relay from receiving from signing
 431 2013-08-01 10:16:31 <CodeShark> so, for instance, you could run a validation service (full or SPV) on a device and then have other apps connect to it for sync and updates.
 432 2013-08-01 10:16:46 <CodeShark> including wallets
 433 2013-08-01 10:17:54 <warren> has TradeFortress been around at all?
 434 2013-08-01 10:19:23 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: That would help a lot. have you posted any code on github in this regard?
 435 2013-08-01 10:19:47 <CodeShark> I posted a class library I wrote which I've been using, but haven't posted everything
 436 2013-08-01 10:20:08 <CodeShark> https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses
 437 2013-08-01 10:20:55 <CodeShark> now I'm working on a headers-first (with option of full node) validation node that provides an interface for others to subscribe to event signals
 438 2013-08-01 10:22:18 <CodeShark> basically, instead of bitcoind connecting directly to the wallet via direct calls, the idea is to decouple the validation engine from the wallet so that the validation engine just emits signals which apps can subscribe to
 439 2013-08-01 10:22:21 <CodeShark> including wallets
 440 2013-08-01 10:22:31 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 441 2013-08-01 10:24:28 <CodeShark> and a big goal in this is to separate transaction processing (i.e. tracking of received transactions, storing history, account labeling, etc) from transaction signing (i.e. key generation, key storage/distribution)
 442 2013-08-01 10:25:19 <CodeShark> which, IMHO, is a much better long term solution than watch-only wallets in the existing bitcoind
 443 2013-08-01 10:25:33 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: what would happen to the bulk of block files? Would they still sit with bitcoind?
 444 2013-08-01 10:25:40 <CodeShark> yes
 445 2013-08-01 10:25:57 <CodeShark> bitcoind would serve the critical task of full validation and network relay
 446 2013-08-01 10:26:44 <CodeShark> that still remains the backbone of the network :)
 447 2013-08-01 10:26:49 <CodeShark> without that we can't have anything else
 448 2013-08-01 10:27:15 <Megz> gavinandresen: Thanks for the link
 449 2013-08-01 10:27:21 <CodeShark> point is many apps have much lighter data requirements
 450 2013-08-01 10:27:34 <CodeShark> they are not particularly data-intensive but require timely updates and synchronization
 451 2013-08-01 10:28:03 <CodeShark> and requiring each application to run its own validation service seems sily
 452 2013-08-01 10:28:05 <CodeShark> *silly
 453 2013-08-01 10:28:16 <arioBarzan> but we would have better security, if we use your library. I assume you cut bitcoind hands from accessing to privkeys, right?
 454 2013-08-01 10:29:25 <CodeShark> absolutely
 455 2013-08-01 10:29:27 <Megz> libcoin looks great. that's exactly the type of work I was asking about
 456 2013-08-01 10:29:38 <Megz> What move can we make to verify its integrity?
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 461 2013-08-01 10:35:41 cads has joined
 462 2013-08-01 10:35:53 <CodeShark> arioBarzan: let me qualify that, though - perhaps the wallet portion of bitcoin-qt can evolve into a separate app that supports all this
 463 2013-08-01 10:36:29 <CodeShark> and the RPC portion can evolve into a more scalable wallet solution for businesses
 464 2013-08-01 10:36:37 <CodeShark> but both as separate apps
 465 2013-08-01 10:37:27 <CodeShark> when I say "bitcoind" I'm talking about its validation/relay capabilities specifically
 466 2013-08-01 10:37:28 cads has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 467 2013-08-01 10:37:28 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: I was thinking exactly the same today that it would be probably better to separate those two.
 468 2013-08-01 10:38:58 cads has joined
 469 2013-08-01 10:39:15 <CodeShark> we've already seen the miner portion move to a separate app - it might have been the first thing to have moved completely outside if bitcoind
 470 2013-08-01 10:39:27 <CodeShark> if for no other reason than a cpu miner became untenable
 471 2013-08-01 10:40:04 <arioBarzan> That's right.
 472 2013-08-01 10:41:03 agnostic98 has joined
 473 2013-08-01 10:43:11 <arioBarzan> However, couldn't be easier to strip bitcoind's code from validation/relay stuff while keeping wallet side, rather than writing an entire new library?
 474 2013-08-01 10:44:03 <CodeShark> I would have liked to take that approach - but at the time the bitcoind source was too convoluted to be able to easily reuse very much. libcoin didn't exist yet. and I wanted to really understand the message structures
 475 2013-08-01 10:44:43 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 476 2013-08-01 10:44:46 <CodeShark> I made some efforts to separate the core structures from the validation code in core.h/core.cpp
 477 2013-08-01 10:44:49 <CodeShark> but this is fairly recent
 478 2013-08-01 10:45:24 <CodeShark> the idea is that the core structures should support serialization, simple accessor methods, and pretty much nothing else
 479 2013-08-01 10:45:53 <CodeShark> so they can be reused by any app that must work with these structures...without burdening them with any of the heavyweight validation code
 480 2013-08-01 10:46:29 <CodeShark> however, I've already written several applications using my library
 481 2013-08-01 10:47:19 <CodeShark> so to be able to interface these apps with the bitcoind structure would require defining some common interfaces and writing wrappers
 482 2013-08-01 10:48:20 <arioBarzan> do we still need to have bitcoind running in order to use your library?
 483 2013-08-01 10:49:10 <CodeShark> no. it can still perform many functions that do not require p2p, such as key generation/signing and transaction construction
 484 2013-08-01 10:49:36 <CodeShark> furthermore, you can connect to remote nodes to grab data
 485 2013-08-01 10:50:29 <CodeShark> there still needs to be a full node running somewhere (preferably a whole bunch of them) for the network to operate properly, of course
 486 2013-08-01 10:50:47 yubrew has joined
 487 2013-08-01 10:53:33 <CodeShark> this code isn't meant to be a full validation node (although I'm not too far from building one using this library)
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 490 2013-08-01 10:57:25 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: interesting project. wish you best of luck.
 491 2013-08-01 10:57:42 <CodeShark> thanks. likewise for you in whatever you're working on :)
 492 2013-08-01 10:58:52 <arioBarzan> thanks :)
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 495 2013-08-01 11:04:37 <sipa> CodeShark: i understand the problem with not knowing the value's inputs
 496 2013-08-01 11:05:16 <CodeShark> I know :)
 497 2013-08-01 11:05:30 <CodeShark> it was you who proposed the workaround of storing all dependencies
 498 2013-08-01 11:05:30 macboz has joined
 499 2013-08-01 11:06:26 <sipa> CodeShark: but it does not need a hardfork
 500 2013-08-01 11:06:46 <sipa> only a new script language, which can be done using just a softfork
 501 2013-08-01 11:07:15 <CodeShark> could you elaborate?
 502 2013-08-01 11:07:28 <CodeShark> you had mentioned something along these lines but I'm not sure I got it
 503 2013-08-01 11:07:32 <sipa> the original op_eval proposal
 504 2013-08-01 11:07:59 <CodeShark> why was it withdrawn?
 505 2013-08-01 11:08:19 <sipa> it was replaced by bip16
 506 2013-08-01 11:08:33 <sipa> but we can do something similar again
 507 2013-08-01 11:08:47 <sipa> except use a different script language in the subscript
 508 2013-08-01 11:09:05 one_zero has quit ()
 509 2013-08-01 11:09:24 <CodeShark> yeah, I guess the value could be added as another OP
 510 2013-08-01 11:10:20 <Megz> I wonder what happened to libcoinqt, no commits for a year
 511 2013-08-01 11:10:33 <CodeShark> ask michael :)
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 518 2013-08-01 11:17:57 <arioBarzan> sipa for watching a multisig address, if one uses addmultisigaddress (assuming he has all the puclic keys of course), how wallet keeps track of his transactions? based on ScriptID or based on public keys?
 519 2013-08-01 11:21:14 psychophoniac has joined
 520 2013-08-01 11:21:46 <CodeShark> based on hash of redeemscript
 521 2013-08-01 11:22:15 <CodeShark> that's what a multisig address really is
 522 2013-08-01 11:22:58 <sipa> CodeShark: if we'd again make a change to the script language, i would vote to revamp it completely :)
 523 2013-08-01 11:23:28 <CodeShark> I'm up for working on it - glad you're also in favor of it :)
 524 2013-08-01 11:23:54 <sipa> merkleized abstract syntax tree, separate instructions for computing the sighash (given sighash flags, perhaps more than now), and some crypto primitives
 525 2013-08-01 11:24:02 <sipa> perhaps support for pubkey reconstruction
 526 2013-08-01 11:24:14 <CodeShark> so you're serious about an entirely new scripting language, eh?
 527 2013-08-01 11:24:17 <sipa> yes
 528 2013-08-01 11:24:36 <CodeShark> while that is a noble and worthy goal, is that really necessary to support this specific feature?
 529 2013-08-01 11:24:48 <sipa> no, but it's a lost chance otherwise
 530 2013-08-01 11:24:52 <CodeShark> heh
 531 2013-08-01 11:25:02 <sipa> making script changes is hard
 532 2013-08-01 11:25:13 <CodeShark> yeah, I guess we need an excuse
 533 2013-08-01 11:25:28 <CodeShark> if we can find one or two other applications for a new script perhaps the proposal will be even more persuasive
 534 2013-08-01 11:25:45 <sipa> it may not require a hard fork, but there are risks involved (in particular for those we accept 0-conf transactions...), and it will take a long time to adopt (full nodes, but also wallets, ...)
 535 2013-08-01 11:26:24 shesek has joined
 536 2013-08-01 11:26:38 <sipa> so i have no idea whether it'll happen at all
 537 2013-08-01 11:26:55 <sipa> but if it does, perhaps we should use the opportunity to fix some problems with the existing one
 538 2013-08-01 11:27:39 <CodeShark> yeah, I suppose the risks and schedule are somewhat costly but we only incur them once this way
 539 2013-08-01 11:27:48 <CodeShark> and have a chance to fix potentially many problems with the protocol
 540 2013-08-01 11:28:23 <sipa> something like merkleized abstaxt syntax trees is perhaps too innovative
 541 2013-08-01 11:28:39 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: so when a new tx arrives, does the wallet look for that redeemscript to detect if he should keep track of that tx?
 542 2013-08-01 11:29:07 <CodeShark> arioBarzan: essentially, yes
 543 2013-08-01 11:29:15 <sipa> arioBarzan: no, but P2SH transaction outputs carry the hash of the redeemscript
 544 2013-08-01 11:29:23 <CodeShark> it's done with the hash
 545 2013-08-01 11:29:27 <CodeShark> not with the redeemscript itself
 546 2013-08-01 11:29:30 <sipa> arioBarzan: and the wallet knows which redeemscripts it is interested in, so it also knows there hashes
 547 2013-08-01 11:29:53 <sipa> *their
 548 2013-08-01 11:30:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't think the mast thing is especially tricky, esp if you make its use optional by having both kinds of branch operator.
 549 2013-08-01 11:31:41 <arioBarzan> sipa: is that hash related to the P2SH address? I mean if we know only the address, without knowing the redeemscript or its hash, could we detect a relevant tx for that address?
 550 2013-08-01 11:31:58 <sipa> arioBarzan: yes
 551 2013-08-01 11:32:08 <CodeShark> arioBarzan: the p2sh address is just the base58encoded hash
 552 2013-08-01 11:32:14 <sipa> arioBarzan: the P2SH address is essentially an encoded version of the hash of the redeemscript
 553 2013-08-01 11:32:29 <sipa> arioBarzan: in the same way that a regular address is an encoded version of the hash of the pubkey
 554 2013-08-01 11:33:07 <arioBarzan> thanks.
 555 2013-08-01 11:33:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: indeed, but i think one of the features that are useful to have in a new scripting language would be the fact that implementing it is easier :)
 556 2013-08-01 11:33:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't know that you really can get easier then the current one, at least once you strip out all the forbidden opcodes.. maybe rename a few things. :P
 557 2013-08-01 11:34:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think an AST-based approach is easier than the random mix of OP_IF OP_CODESEPARATOR, ...
 558 2013-08-01 11:35:04 <sipa> at least easier to reason about
 559 2013-08-01 11:35:12 <sipa> making making it merkleized isn't that big a step
 560 2013-08-01 11:35:46 <gmaxwell> Right, thats true.
 561 2013-08-01 11:36:49 <CodeShark> yeah, we could write compilers for the scripting language more easily :p
 562 2013-08-01 11:40:21 <CodeShark> anyhow, as much as I support moving to a more powerful script, I wouldn't want that to hold up adoption of something simpler that solves this immediate problem of input values for a very long time
 563 2013-08-01 11:41:10 <CodeShark> unless the new script really is adopted and really is better and doesn't take forever to push through
 564 2013-08-01 11:41:28 <sipa> i think any change to the script language will take a long time...
 565 2013-08-01 11:41:47 <CodeShark> but I needed this input value thing yesterdat :p
 566 2013-08-01 11:43:23 agnostic98 has joined
 567 2013-08-01 11:43:38 <CodeShark> oh well, I'll need to write this bloom filter code for the SPV layer...argh
 568 2013-08-01 11:43:54 <CodeShark> and keep track of all dependencies
 569 2013-08-01 11:44:33 <CodeShark> longer sync time, much more complex client logic
 570 2013-08-01 11:44:43 <CodeShark> higher storage requirements
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 573 2013-08-01 11:47:56 <CodeShark> it means each time a key receives bitcoin, the node must go out and fetch its dependencies
 574 2013-08-01 11:48:12 <CodeShark> connect to a peer, set a bloom filter, pull the block chain
 575 2013-08-01 11:48:27 <sipa> huh?
 576 2013-08-01 11:48:36 <CodeShark> or no, nvm
 577 2013-08-01 11:48:40 <CodeShark> just the first time
 578 2013-08-01 11:48:45 <sipa> you only need to know outputs that your keys are able to spend
 579 2013-08-01 11:48:52 <CodeShark> yes, so just the first sync
 580 2013-08-01 11:49:39 <CodeShark> although on the flipside, doing a bloom filter sync on the entire block chain means you don't need to store the height of the first confirmed transaction to the key
 581 2013-08-01 11:50:26 <gmaxwell> thats not a cheap operation...
 582 2013-08-01 11:50:39 <CodeShark> yeah, it really isn't
 583 2013-08-01 11:51:04 <gmaxwell> walk all transactions in history sequentially and perform N*filters hash and test operations... "eek"
 584 2013-08-01 11:51:06 <sipa> that's the equivalent of an IBD for a wallet
 585 2013-08-01 11:51:06 Namworld has joined
 586 2013-08-01 11:51:29 <sipa> you only need to start at the birthday though
 587 2013-08-01 11:52:00 <CodeShark> right, so for recently created keys sync time would be very quick
 588 2013-08-01 11:52:10 <CodeShark> and for older keys chances are you already have a history stored somewhere
 589 2013-08-01 11:55:12 <CodeShark> imagine - you'd be able to spend your coins with practically no risk within seconds of starting up the new node :)
 590 2013-08-01 11:55:43 <CodeShark> and that includes the header download for the entire chain
 591 2013-08-01 11:56:34 <sipa> it's probably more than seconds the first time, unless you have a bunch of headers pre-packaged with the program
 592 2013-08-01 11:56:54 <CodeShark> I can sync from a remote host headers-only in about a minute or two
 593 2013-08-01 11:57:06 <CodeShark> I can sync headers-only from localhost within a few seconds
 594 2013-08-01 11:57:33 <CodeShark> and this is a one-time cost when starting up the node
 595 2013-08-01 11:57:51 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 596 2013-08-01 11:57:52 <CodeShark> or rather, I should say the cost becomes incremental later on - depends on how long you've been disconnected
 597 2013-08-01 11:58:16 <sipa> yes
 598 2013-08-01 11:58:53 <sipa> but for example bitcoin wallet for android syncs in the background once per day, and i've never seen it take more than a few seconds to sync
 599 2013-08-01 11:59:43 <CodeShark> even the first time you start it up?
 600 2013-08-01 12:00:09 <sipa> if i wipe the chain data, and let it resync, it takes a few minutes
 601 2013-08-01 12:00:29 <sipa> but if you just start it with a new wallet... it just needs to fetch headers since its last checkpoint
 602 2013-08-01 12:00:55 <sipa> (i don't like shipping headers with the program from an ideologic viewpoint, but for convenience it's pretty great)
 603 2013-08-01 12:01:31 <CodeShark> bah, a better solution would be to support specifying getheader height ranges and pulling from multiple hosts concurrently
 604 2013-08-01 12:02:03 <sipa> yes, but there would be weird edge cases to deal with reorgs, i think
 605 2013-08-01 12:02:14 <CodeShark> you would need to spot overlaps in timestamp
 606 2013-08-01 12:02:35 <arioBarzan> sipa: Running your last commit of watch-only branch,  "validateaddress 3NukJ6fYZJ5Kk8bPjycAnruZkE5Q7UW7i8 "  gives this result:
 607 2013-08-01 12:02:37 <arioBarzan> {"isvalid" : true,"address" : "3NukJ6fYZJ5Kk8bPjycAnruZkE5Q7UW7i8","ismine" : true,"isscript" : true,"script" : "nonstandard","addresses" : [],"account" : "multi"}
 608 2013-08-01 12:03:12 <CodeShark> the logic isn't super trivial, sipa - but it also isn't super complex, would allow for very fast initial sync times, and doesn't require any prepackaging of headers (other than genesis block)
 609 2013-08-01 12:03:20 cads has joined
 610 2013-08-01 12:03:30 <sipa> arioBarzan: with that address being imported via importaddress?
 611 2013-08-01 12:03:33 <gmaxwell> shipping headers isn't a big deal, just pull them in like you got them from the network from another peer.
 612 2013-08-01 12:03:56 <arioBarzan> sipa: yes
 613 2013-08-01 12:04:04 <CodeShark> might as well add a p2p message "get checkpoints" gmaxwell
 614 2013-08-01 12:04:27 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: huh? not at all.
 615 2013-08-01 12:04:29 <arioBarzan> sipa: it also don't crash when I try to spend its coins
 616 2013-08-01 12:04:30 <sipa> arioBarzan: seems expected, though it may be useful to have a "havekey": false, or so
 617 2013-08-01 12:04:51 <sipa> CodeShark: let's please not institutionalize checkpoints further...
 618 2013-08-01 12:05:06 <CodeShark> or no, I didn't mean checkpoints
 619 2013-08-01 12:05:07 <CodeShark> sorry
 620 2013-08-01 12:05:42 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: shipping a little stack of headers doesn't change the security model or reduce transparency. You read them in like you got them from a peer, and so you know at least part of a long chain you should be looking for. :P
 621 2013-08-01 12:05:46 <CodeShark> I mean rather than "give me all headers sequentially starting at the header above the one with hash X" it would be "give me headers in increments of 2000" or whatever
 622 2013-08-01 12:05:57 <CodeShark> not checkpoints
 623 2013-08-01 12:06:03 <CodeShark> the node would still need to verify the chain
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 626 2013-08-01 12:07:14 <gmaxwell> sadly partial headers now aren't secure because they don't link. :( but yea, I think I see what you're saying there.
 627 2013-08-01 12:07:28 <CodeShark> i.e. you get the hashes for blocks with height 1, 2001, 4001, 6001, etc...
 628 2013-08-01 12:07:46 <CodeShark> then you do separate getheaders for each of these to different peers
 629 2013-08-01 12:07:55 <CodeShark> and make sure they do link
 630 2013-08-01 12:08:47 <CodeShark> forks would tend to die out quickly
 631 2013-08-01 12:09:04 <CodeShark> the only possible attack might be someone constructing a super long chain of low difficulty
 632 2013-08-01 12:09:18 <CodeShark> but without too much trouble that could also be detected
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 635 2013-08-01 12:11:46 <gmaxwell> sha-3 algorithims named now..
 636 2013-08-01 12:12:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: ?
 637 2013-08-01 12:12:58 <gmaxwell> SHA3-224 SHA3-256 using 256 bit sponge capacities, SHA3-384 SHA3-512 with 512 bit sponge capacities.   (kinda lame that they aren't capacity 2x output, oh well)
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 639 2013-08-01 12:13:48 phungus is now known as Dividend
 640 2013-08-01 12:13:58 <CodeShark> I guess another possible attack on the header thing is someone offsetting the heights
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 643 2013-08-01 12:14:26 <CodeShark> however, you don't have to trust that they are the correct heights
 644 2013-08-01 12:14:29 Dividend is now known as phungus
 645 2013-08-01 12:14:32 <CodeShark> you can do the linking on your end
 646 2013-08-01 12:14:53 <gmaxwell> NIST will also specify  "SHAKE256" "SHAKE512" which are the same SHA3 permutation (with the respective capacities), but with unspecified output lengths.  (preimage/second preimage resistance is capacity proportional)
 647 2013-08-01 12:16:07 <SomeoneWeird> shake?
 648 2013-08-01 12:16:08 <SomeoneWeird> hah
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 653 2013-08-01 12:26:19 <phantomcircuit> eat an entire large pepperoni pizza
 654 2013-08-01 12:26:21 <phantomcircuit> still hungry
 655 2013-08-01 12:26:42 <sipa> repeat.
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 657 2013-08-01 12:26:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, 404 pizza not found
 658 2013-08-01 12:27:10 <sipa> you mean 402, payment required?
 659 2013-08-01 12:27:18 <phantomcircuit> it's 5:30am
 660 2013-08-01 12:27:24 <sipa> ah
 661 2013-08-01 12:27:35 <sipa> sorry can't help you - it's a national holiday here
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 710 2013-08-01 13:28:38 <Vinnie_win> How is everyone today?
 711 2013-08-01 13:29:16 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 712 2013-08-01 13:30:32 <Vinnie_win> any boost::asio experts here? I've been looking at the bitcoin code and SOMEONE knows their shit!
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 720 2013-08-01 13:43:29 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 726 2013-08-01 13:52:04 <sipa> Vinnie_win: not me :)
 727 2013-08-01 13:52:10 <sipa> hi there jgarzik
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 729 2013-08-01 13:53:28 <jgarzik> woo hoo!  Batch #3 av arrived
 730 2013-08-01 13:59:24 <gmaxwell> hurrah
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 752 2013-08-01 14:34:26 <jgarzik> sipa/gmaxwell: any interest in doing a bitcoin keynote at Fedora Flock conference?  All travel/lodging costs are covered.  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock    "You could talk on Bitcoin (and yes, I know Fedora's ECC hangups make it
 753 2013-08-01 14:34:26 <jgarzik> a difficult starting point), but a 45 minute presentation on the
 754 2013-08-01 14:34:26 <jgarzik> past/present/future of Bitcoin would be compelling."
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 757 2013-08-01 14:39:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hm! sort of short notice. I'm in berlin till the 4th. Normally I'd be game but I'm not jumping on the idea of flying back across the US right after coming back to the west coast from europe. :P
 758 2013-08-01 14:42:49 <sipa> jgarzik: i'd rather not
 759 2013-08-01 14:43:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: ah, you're "nearby"! :(
 760 2013-08-01 14:43:39 <sipa> :)
 761 2013-08-01 14:43:45 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
 762 2013-08-01 14:44:19 <kinlo> just one country across, good enough :p
 763 2013-08-01 14:44:20 <petertodd> heh, funny I'd be actually nearby if I had accepted my friend's invitation to go caving :)
 764 2013-08-01 14:44:26 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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 766 2013-08-01 14:45:06 <sipa> kinlo: ironically, that's still further away than .be :)
 767 2013-08-01 14:45:08 <petertodd> Tennessee Alabama and Georgia have the best caves in the USA, referred to as TAG
 768 2013-08-01 14:45:27 <kinlo> hehe :)
 769 2013-08-01 14:45:41 <gmaxwell> I keep running into people here that I know that I didn't expect to see here. e.g. jacob appelbaum, wendy seltzer, ... apparently RMS will be around. Berlin is apparently a hopping place right now.
 770 2013-08-01 14:45:44 <kinlo> sipa: you should return to .be, still want a beer :)
 771 2013-08-01 14:45:55 btcbtc_ has joined
 772 2013-08-01 14:46:07 <sipa> kinlo: i'll let you know when i come visit :)
 773 2013-08-01 14:46:13 <kinlo> perfect!
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 787 2013-08-01 14:57:30 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell: OK thanks :)
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 863 2013-08-01 16:37:35 <sipa> jgarzik: what do you mean by "in-hand, next Jalapeno" ?
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 873 2013-08-01 16:49:52 <jgarzik> sipa, hum, I don't see that in my scrollback, odd
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 875 2013-08-01 16:50:05 <jgarzik> sipa, presumably that meant "in hand, next day shipping, Jalapeno"
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 877 2013-08-01 16:52:55 <jgarzik> sipa, oh, twitter
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 879 2013-08-01 16:53:14 <sipa> yeah
 880 2013-08-01 16:53:51 * jgarzik deletes tweet and revises
 881 2013-08-01 16:54:02 * jgarzik wishes you could revise a tweet, but I guess not
 882 2013-08-01 16:54:10 <jgarzik> kinda like wishing to revise a bitcoin block
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 884 2013-08-01 16:54:19 <sipa> given enough hash power :D
 885 2013-08-01 16:55:06 <jgarzik> heh
 886 2013-08-01 16:55:13 <sipa> headers-first patch update: -488 lines, +392 lines
 887 2013-08-01 16:55:20 <sipa> wait
 888 2013-08-01 16:55:26 <sipa> headers-first patch update: +488 lines, -392 lines
 889 2013-08-01 16:55:32 richcollins has joined
 890 2013-08-01 16:55:43 <sipa> i'm amazed by how much i can delete :p
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 893 2013-08-01 16:59:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats still a net increase!
 894 2013-08-01 16:59:26 <gmaxwell> NAK
 895 2013-08-01 16:59:27 <gmaxwell> :P
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 899 2013-08-01 17:02:15 * sipa removes all empty lines, and those only containing comments
 900 2013-08-01 17:02:42 * sipa will keep fighting bloat, in the blockchain and in the code!
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 904 2013-08-01 17:03:32 <jgarzik> ;p
 905 2013-08-01 17:03:37 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 907 2013-08-01 17:04:20 <gmaxwell> Hm. Is there a C++ minifier? :P
 908 2013-08-01 17:04:44 <jgarzik> They use those in JavaScript-land <shiver>
 909 2013-08-01 17:05:00 <gmaxwell> yea thats where I got the "minifier" word from, terrible terrible stuff.
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 911 2013-08-01 17:05:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: gzip?
 912 2013-08-01 17:05:45 <sipa> i'm sure you can write the makefile to run gunzip on-the-fly before invoking the compiler :)
 913 2013-08-01 17:05:54 <michagogo> [20:03:46] <gmaxwell> Hm. Is there a C++ minifier? :P
 914 2013-08-01 17:05:54 <michagogo> Aren't those called compilers?
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 916 2013-08-01 17:07:15 HaltingState has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 917 2013-08-01 17:07:31 <sipa> $ find -name '*.c' -o -name '*.h' -print0 | xargs -0 cat | wc -c
 918 2013-08-01 17:07:41 realzies has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 919 2013-08-01 17:07:43 <sipa> 977193
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 921 2013-08-01 17:07:56 <sipa> $ wc -c bitcoin-qt
 922 2013-08-01 17:07:56 <sipa> 6541040 bitcoin-qt
 923 2013-08-01 17:08:52 <sipa> a -569% compression ratio!
 924 2013-08-01 17:09:00 imton_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 925 2013-08-01 17:09:00 <michagogo> er, what did that command line do?
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 927 2013-08-01 17:09:11 <Arnavion> sipa: It's so impressive it overflowed past INT_MAX
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 929 2013-08-01 17:09:18 <sipa> compute the combined size of all *.cpp and *.h files
 930 2013-08-01 17:09:23 <sipa> and compute the size of bitcoin-qt
 931 2013-08-01 17:10:00 * jgarzik has this awesome executable compression utility called "strip"
 932 2013-08-01 17:10:07 <sipa> jgarzik: i ran that first!
 933 2013-08-01 17:10:11 <jgarzik> amazing compression ratios, far beyond gzip ;p
 934 2013-08-01 17:10:37 <sipa> Arnavion: ha
 935 2013-08-01 17:10:47 <michagogo> sipa: Don't forget to also include the requisite libraries
 936 2013-08-01 17:10:51 <michagogo> qt, for example
 937 2013-08-01 17:11:15 <Arnavion> and libc
 938 2013-08-01 17:11:20 <Arnavion> and the kernel sources
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 940 2013-08-01 17:11:33 <Arnavion> Okay maybe not the kernel sources
 941 2013-08-01 17:11:51 c0rw1n has joined
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 943 2013-08-01 17:12:23 <Arnavion> Wait, I'm having a brainfart moment
 944 2013-08-01 17:13:07 <Arnavion> libc encapsulates over the kernel-specifc things, but how the linked executable still be linked to something kernel-specific?
 945 2013-08-01 17:13:14 <Arnavion> how is the*
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 947 2013-08-01 17:13:32 <sipa> michagogo: qt is dynamically linked into my executable
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 949 2013-08-01 17:14:03 <michagogo> sipa: Exactly
 950 2013-08-01 17:14:03 <kjj> qt is apparently relatively lightweight.  my stripped static bitcoind is 5455016 bytes
 951 2013-08-01 17:14:23 <sipa> michagogo: you understand what dynamic linking means?
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 954 2013-08-01 17:14:45 <sipa> it doesn't increase the size of binary (or not much, at least)
 955 2013-08-01 17:14:45 <michagogo> sipa: That it's not built in to the executable, but rather uses the copy of it that the system has installed?
 956 2013-08-01 17:14:50 <sipa> yes
 957 2013-08-01 17:14:55 <michagogo> sipa: Right, that's what I'm saying
 958 2013-08-01 17:14:58 <michagogo> it doesn't increase the size of binary
 959 2013-08-01 17:15:09 <sipa> so why would i need to count the size of qt?
 960 2013-08-01 17:15:12 <michagogo> But it's still required for said binary
 961 2013-08-01 17:15:20 <sipa> it wasn't part of the source code either
 962 2013-08-01 17:15:25 <michagogo> Oh, wait, I see
 963 2013-08-01 17:15:25 <sipa> either count both, or count neither
 964 2013-08-01 17:15:28 <michagogo> nvm, ignore that
 965 2013-08-01 17:15:42 <Arnavion> Maybe michagogo means you should count the headers
 966 2013-08-01 17:16:13 <sipa> there it becomes fuzzy :)
 967 2013-08-01 17:16:59 <jgarzik> Protip:  there's a magic json_spirit define that reduces the code size by a megabyte or more
 968 2013-08-01 17:17:36 <jgarzik> library-ifies what it can, if your build system can handle such things, rather than being header-only templates.
 969 2013-08-01 17:17:54 <jgarzik> we need to get autoconf support merged
 970 2013-08-01 17:17:55 <jgarzik> sigh
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1187 2013-08-01 22:03:43 <sipa> ;;stats
1188 2013-08-01 22:03:43 <gribble> I have 21 registered users with 27 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
1189 2013-08-01 22:03:52 <sipa> ;;diffestimate
1190 2013-08-01 22:03:53 <gribble> Error: "diffestimate" is not a valid command.
1191 2013-08-01 22:03:59 <sipa> ;;diffnext
1192 2013-08-01 22:03:59 <gribble> Error: "diffnext" is not a valid command.
1193 2013-08-01 22:04:03 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
1194 2013-08-01 22:04:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 249692 | Current Difficulty: 3.125696072776893E7 | Next Difficulty At Block: 249983 | Next Difficulty In: 291 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 12 hours, 33 minutes, and 55 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 36822452.7778 | Estimated Percent Change: 17.80561
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1249 2013-08-01 23:07:40 handle_ is now known as handle
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1255 2013-08-01 23:15:50 <JWU42> so what happened earlier?
1256 2013-08-01 23:15:50 RoboTeddy has joined
1257 2013-08-01 23:15:59 <JWU42> saw both my nodes were down
1258 2013-08-01 23:16:04 RoboTeddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1259 2013-08-01 23:16:25 RoboTeddy has joined
1260 2013-08-01 23:16:39 <petertodd> JWU42: what do you mean?
1261 2013-08-01 23:16:44 CodeShark has joined
1262 2013-08-01 23:17:25 <JWU42> bitcoind crashing on stratum mining servers
1263 2013-08-01 23:17:37 <JWU42> a pool I use had a crash and my 2 local backups also died
1264 2013-08-01 23:17:38 <petertodd> only statum?
1265 2013-08-01 23:17:43 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1266 2013-08-01 23:17:46 <petertodd> do you have logs?
1267 2013-08-01 23:17:50 <JWU42> not sure - that is what i am trying to find out
1268 2013-08-01 23:18:13 <JWU42> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249627.msg2849215#msg2849215
1269 2013-08-01 23:18:22 <JWU42> I thought it was just me then saw that
1270 2013-08-01 23:21:24 robocoin_ has joined
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1277 2013-08-01 23:28:00 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1278 2013-08-01 23:28:35 <sipa> JWU42: i wonder what happened, but do you have logs?
1279 2013-08-01 23:29:24 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1280 2013-08-01 23:30:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: I had a git build crash too fwiw.
1281 2013-08-01 23:30:08 <JWU42> sipa: I don't - have that set going forward though
1282 2013-08-01 23:30:18 <JWU42> debug=1
1283 2013-08-01 23:30:36 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 19:25:23 CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted fb11e6e14c0f7e56320bdfa97275e61967c66363f232e7994d978cbd904296c4 (poolsz 586)
1284 2013-08-01 23:30:36 Neozonz has joined
1285 2013-08-01 23:30:39 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 19:25:23 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction: dust
1286 2013-08-01 23:30:42 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 19:25:23 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction: dust
1287 2013-08-01 23:30:43 <JWU42> reaching out to dbitcoin who made the forum post - he is far more technically capable than I
1288 2013-08-01 23:30:45 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 19:25:23 SetBestChain: new best=000000000000003d83ba9beb36d3642df1165bd070abc74aacd180262b595881  height=249673  log2_work=70.984974  tx=21401321  date=2013-08-01 19:25:08 progress=0.999999
1289 2013-08-01 23:30:50 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 19:25:23 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
1290 2013-08-01 23:30:52 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 19:25:23 sending: inv (37 bytes)
1291 2013-08-01 23:30:54 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 19:25:23 sending: inv (37 bytes)
1292 2013-08-01 23:30:57 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 19:25:23 ERROR: mempool transaction missing input
1293 2013-08-01 23:31:40 <JWU42> yeah - seemed mine happened about 3-4 hours ago as well
1294 2013-08-01 23:31:45 <gmaxwell> that node is running c2aca505510337cc82c927bc56edcdc8d0d58dd2 + {c5e319d175c4c6e9e7b3f285cd533c6d2aa5e491, 67b0fc064d12d9d209b5cbda44f1020a3e014faf, a26ad8b2cd8192b6098928b2afe0e4bcf4677b9a} (the less locking pull)
1295 2013-08-01 23:32:01 <gmaxwell> I'm out of the country so I didn't get paged on it.
1296 2013-08-01 23:32:48 <gmaxwell> this particular node is not listening, only makes outbound connections.
1297 2013-08-01 23:32:54 <gmaxwell> had p2pool running with it.
1298 2013-08-01 23:33:30 neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1299 2013-08-01 23:33:38 <petertodd> interesting:
1300 2013-08-01 23:33:38 <petertodd> 2013-08-01 19:25:22 received block 000000000000003d83ba9beb36d3642df1165bd070abc74aacd180262b595881
1301 2013-08-01 23:33:41 <petertodd> 2013-08-01 19:25:22 REORGANIZE: Connect 2 blocks; ..000000000000003d83ba9beb36d3642df1165bd070abc74aacd180262b5958   81
1302 2013-08-01 23:35:27 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1303 2013-08-01 23:37:04 <dbitcoin> I running  3 custom build nodes from git (close to 0.8.3 release), all crashed at the same time with: ERROR: mempool transaction missing input
1304 2013-08-01 23:37:16 AusBitBank has joined
1305 2013-08-01 23:37:16 <gmaxwell> dbitcoin: what does close to 0.8.3 mean?
1306 2013-08-01 23:37:20 <gmaxwell> does that mean before or afteR?
1307 2013-08-01 23:37:44 <Luke-Jr> FWIW, none of my nodes were affected
1308 2013-08-01 23:37:49 <dbitcoin> probably one or two commit after release
1309 2013-08-01 23:38:03 <gmaxwell> dbitcoin: can you get the exact commit?
1310 2013-08-01 23:38:20 <gmaxwell> I'm catching my failed one up, will restart it in valgrind once caught up.
1311 2013-08-01 23:38:20 <JWU42> gmaxwell: I had a 0.8.3 and a 0.8.999 crash
1312 2013-08-01 23:38:57 <JWU42> I can get specifics for you guys with some guidance - know just enough of git to build
1313 2013-08-01 23:39:14 <dbitcoin> not sure, compiled a month ago
1314 2013-08-01 23:39:40 <gmaxwell> dbitcoin: run git log
1315 2013-08-01 23:41:13 <JWU42> gmaxwell: commit c83d4d2170bf00863bd5c21c6eaea91b00390e72
1316 2013-08-01 23:41:20 <JWU42> is last on 0.8.99
1317 2013-08-01 23:42:00 <JWU42> commit 40809aed657502e9de158e2cfe2c659a316f2f90
1318 2013-08-01 23:42:07 <JWU42> is last on 0.8.3
1319 2013-08-01 23:42:16 richcollins has joined
1320 2013-08-01 23:42:20 <JWU42> I think I went off master for that
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1327 2013-08-01 23:48:29 <gmaxwell> In any case, my down node is back up under valgrind now.
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1329 2013-08-01 23:49:01 <gmaxwell> dbitcoin: any idea what commit?
1330 2013-08-01 23:49:11 <dbitcoin> no, I have only old binaries. my git clones already updated to the latest
1331 2013-08-01 23:49:19 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
1332 2013-08-01 23:49:31 <gmaxwell> dbitcoin: do you have complete debug.logs?
1333 2013-08-01 23:49:59 <gmaxwell> look for a line like:
1334 2013-08-01 23:49:59 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-01 23:40:36 Bitcoin version v0.8.2-174-gc2aca50-dirty-beta (2013-07-14 04:29:36 -0700)
1335 2013-08-01 23:51:13 <dbitcoin> nope, all logs cleared after restarts :(
1336 2013-08-01 23:51:29 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1337 2013-08-01 23:51:50 <gmaxwell> dbitcoin: but are you still running the same version after your restart?
1338 2013-08-01 23:51:53 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1339 2013-08-01 23:51:56 <dbitcoin> nope
1340 2013-08-01 23:52:08 <gmaxwell> do you have the old binary?
1341 2013-08-01 23:52:12 <dbitcoin> yes
1342 2013-08-01 23:52:49 <gmaxwell> strings bitcoind | grep v0.8.2
1343 2013-08-01 23:54:04 <dbitcoin> from one file: v0.8.2-103-g25dbb92-dirty-beta, will check another
1344 2013-08-01 23:54:27 <gmaxwell> any idea what further modifications you had that weren't in git?
1345 2013-08-01 23:54:50 * Luke-Jr wishes git didn't add dirty just because of extra files in the directory :/
1346 2013-08-01 23:55:10 <warren> gmaxwell: how much does valgrind slow down bitcoind?  does it keep up with load?
1347 2013-08-01 23:55:25 <gmaxwell> warren: I wouldn't mine on it, but it keeps up fine.
1348 2013-08-01 23:55:29 <warren> nice
1349 2013-08-01 23:55:32 <gmaxwell> takes a long time to start (5 minutes?)
1350 2013-08-01 23:55:37 <warren> gmaxwell: full debug symbols right?
1351 2013-08-01 23:55:40 <gmaxwell> I used to always keep one node running in valgrind.
1352 2013-08-01 23:55:52 <gmaxwell> ... but when I moved I disrupted all my computing infrastructure.
1353 2013-08-01 23:55:52 <dbitcoin> second: v0.8.2-172-gd598872-dirty-beta
1354 2013-08-01 23:56:06 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1355 2013-08-01 23:56:59 <gmaxwell> those are not especially close to 0.8.3. if it is a git vs 0.8.3 issue (suggested by the lack of reports, contraindicated by jwu saying he lost a 0.8.3 node) there is a fair bit to check there.
1356 2013-08-01 23:57:16 <dbitcoin> yep one is from june, second from jul
1357 2013-08-01 23:58:11 <warren> dbitcoin: I'm catching up on discussion, what versions specifically crashed?
1358 2013-08-01 23:58:16 <gmaxwell> would be good to see if anyone else lose a 0.8.3 node.
1359 2013-08-01 23:58:19 <dbitcoin> both
1360 2013-08-01 23:59:10 rdymac has joined
1361 2013-08-01 23:59:16 <gmaxwell> warren: he lost both bitcoin git one d598872 and one 25dbb92  both with unspecified local modifications.
1362 2013-08-01 23:59:24 <warren> unspecified
1363 2013-08-01 23:59:26 <gmaxwell> I lost a node is running c2aca505510337cc82c927bc56edcdc8d0d58dd2 + {c5e319d175c4c6e9e7b3f285cd533c6d2aa5e491, 67b0fc064d12d9d209b5cbda44f1020a3e014faf,  a26ad8b2cd8192b6098928b2afe0e4bcf4677b9a} (the less locking pull)