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 105 2013-08-05 04:44:38 <thestringpuller> is there a libcoin?
 106 2013-08-05 04:46:52 <amiller> thestringpuller, there is, yes
 107 2013-08-05 04:46:54 <amiller> https://github.com/libcoin/libcoin
 108 2013-08-05 04:47:00 <amiller> thestringpuller, i wonder if there was more to your question?
 109 2013-08-05 04:47:13 <nsh> however it occasionally explodes and kills all nearby livestock
 110 2013-08-05 04:47:25 <nsh> and you can't use it in arid, landlocked countries
 111 2013-08-05 04:47:36 <thestringpuller> uhhhh
 112 2013-08-05 04:48:12 <thestringpuller> I just need is a generate address function.
 113 2013-08-05 04:48:39 <nsh> in what language?
 114 2013-08-05 04:49:09 <thestringpuller> C
 115 2013-08-05 04:49:41 <thestringpuller> like libc but for btc...i'm bad with coding words sorry
 116 2013-08-05 04:50:17 <amiller> https://github.com/amiller/cbitcoin/blob/master/examples/addressGenerator.c
 117 2013-08-05 04:50:20 atweiden has joined
 118 2013-08-05 04:50:58 <amiller> thestringpuller, you might like using cbitcoin, it's not totally complete but it does have the advantage of being really small and compiles fast and very few other dependenices
 119 2013-08-05 04:52:41 <Luke-Jr> http://bit-bit.yzi.me/theforum/learn-about-the-lendcoin-sytem/the-lendcoin-sytem/ <-- is it just me, or is this guy trying to do something impossible? :x
 120 2013-08-05 04:53:47 <thestringpuller> thanks amiller
 121 2013-08-05 04:59:31 <amiller> Luke-Jr, "The ability to give a loan without the risk of loosing the principle loan amount while also guaranteeing a profit on the principle" <- yeah, seems like it violates some kind of conservation law, like perpetual motion
 122 2013-08-05 05:00:05 wamatt has joined
 123 2013-08-05 05:00:45 <amiller> "lending" in the sense of ripple doesn't count, because you're basically formalizing relationships with people who you know or trust for some other reason, typically you're using that relation as collateral
 124 2013-08-05 05:00:51 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 126 2013-08-05 05:01:16 <Luke-Jr> well, in theory, you could have a system generate coins to cover losses; but it'd be easily scammed
 127 2013-08-05 05:02:14 <amiller> yeah, so an altcoin that formalizes the approach to risk management of "privatize the gains, socialize the losses"
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 136 2013-08-05 05:19:03 <nsh> amiller, it's perfectly possible to do that
 137 2013-08-05 05:19:12 <nsh> you just fuck the entire economy up
 138 2013-08-05 05:19:34 <nsh> (yes, there is a conservation effect with respect to risk)
 139 2013-08-05 05:20:09 <nsh> what happened in the crash was an effort to distribute that risk wider and wider until it was paper thin but ubiquitous
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 165 2013-08-05 06:41:43 <Hadaka> hello! what is the status of bitcoin v0.9? is the preliminary source code viewable somewhere? (bitcoin/bitcoin on github didn't seem to have it) and relating to that, what is the status of BIP-70?
 166 2013-08-05 06:43:25 <gmaxwell> Hadaka: bitcoin/bitcoin on github is the current work in progress code.
 167 2013-08-05 06:44:26 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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 169 2013-08-05 06:44:46 <Hadaka> gmaxwell: it doesn't seem to have any major changes as far as I can see (still reading through to 0.8.3...)
 170 2013-08-05 06:45:41 <gmaxwell> 0.8.3 was not released very long ago.
 171 2013-08-05 06:45:56 paybitcoin has joined
 172 2013-08-05 06:47:01 <Diablo-D3> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323997004578644491403250124.html
 173 2013-08-05 06:47:05 irsssi has left ()
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 175 2013-08-05 06:47:39 <Hadaka> okay, well, the reason I'm here is that the web is full of "bitcoin v0.9 will add this and that" - but is that only article editors going bonkers, or have some choices already been made and code written to that effect?
 176 2013-08-05 06:48:34 <Hadaka> like: http://bitcoinexaminer.org/bitcoin-v0-9-release-will-bring-new-features-for-merchants/
 177 2013-08-05 06:49:21 <gmaxwell> Other than the payment protocol, AFAIK nothing that isn't in already is slated to be in 0.9. (of course, other things will go in)
 178 2013-08-05 06:49:35 <gmaxwell> Hadaka: are you specifically looking for the payment protocol stuff?
 179 2013-08-05 06:50:40 <Hadaka> gmaxwell: well yeah, if that's one big chunk that contains everything
 180 2013-08-05 06:51:07 <gmaxwell> Hadaka: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2539
 181 2013-08-05 06:52:29 <Hadaka> gmaxwell: thanks!
 182 2013-08-05 06:52:35 Eiii has quit ()
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 184 2013-08-05 06:56:23 <Hadaka> hmmh, actually, is any of the payment request stuff visible in the block chain in any way? is this purely a client feature?
 185 2013-08-05 06:58:01 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 186 2013-08-05 06:59:18 <gmaxwell> no, it has no blockchain implications, — which is part of the point.
 187 2013-08-05 06:59:33 <gmaxwell> If the blockchain is involved you get all the related privacy and scalablity challenges that come with that.
 188 2013-08-05 06:59:48 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 189 2013-08-05 07:00:27 <Hadaka> right, well that also explains why BIP-70 can still be draft when the implementation is going in soon - if it's all client stuff, it can be changed and improved at will and it doesn't really matter that others do not implement it yet
 190 2013-08-05 07:01:29 ricx has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 191 2013-08-05 07:02:21 <Hadaka> thanks, this has been very helpful!
 192 2013-08-05 07:02:47 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 193 2013-08-05 07:04:37 <Luke-Jr> Hadaka: X.509 isn't used at all for transactions like this article claims
 194 2013-08-05 07:05:12 <Luke-Jr> or is poorly worded to claim
 195 2013-08-05 07:05:28 <Hadaka> Luke-Jr: yeah, reading the BIP with some though clarified things a lot
 196 2013-08-05 07:05:53 macboz__ has joined
 197 2013-08-05 07:06:01 <Luke-Jr> Add to this the ability to provide a refund address to the act of paying, <-- hmm, I missed that testing Gavin's code; is it transparent from the keypool?
 198 2013-08-05 07:07:03 <Hadaka> Luke-Jr: also, the article states that receipts will be signed - but I didn't find any signatures on the receipts in the BIP?
 199 2013-08-05 07:07:04 agath has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 201 2013-08-05 07:07:45 <Luke-Jr> Hadaka: I'm not sure there would be a purpose to signing the receipt.
 202 2013-08-05 07:07:58 <Luke-Jr> Hadaka: the transaction still needs to confirm in the blockchain before it's truly accepted
 203 2013-08-05 07:09:03 macboz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 204 2013-08-05 07:09:35 <Hadaka> Luke-Jr: hmmh, yeah, with bitcoin maybe it doesn't matter as the transaction outcome is the real outcome on the basis of which disputes can be handled
 205 2013-08-05 07:13:07 <Hadaka> oh, since I'm here - I've been wondering about bitcoin POS transactions, especially after reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Point_of_sale_with_bitcoins_isn.27t_possible_because_of_the_10_minute_wait_for_confirmation
 206 2013-08-05 07:14:23 <Hadaka> but, for POS to be feasible, the actual transaction processing time must be less than 10 seconds - or 1-3 seconds to be competitive with current methods - or to be *really* competitive, it needs to allow offline, but that's a different can of worms
 207 2013-08-05 07:15:27 <Hadaka> but, are such speeds like 1-3 seconds feasible with transactions? if a lot of the POS transactions were with bitcoin, does it scale to those transaction speeds?
 208 2013-08-05 07:15:30 OPrime has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 214 2013-08-05 07:17:19 <gmaxwell> it's not clear what you mean by processing. You can't 1:1 map these things.
 215 2013-08-05 07:18:02 Application has joined
 216 2013-08-05 07:18:21 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin transactions— the registering of a provable intent to pay— are instant (just however long it takes you to send the payee a few hundred bytes of data), but if the payer is malicious those payments could be reversed.
 217 2013-08-05 07:18:35 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: yes, the refund address comes from the keypool.  The code uses one refund address per merchant, and arranges things so that if you receive a refund it is properly labelled but otherwise doesn't appear in your address book /etc
 218 2013-08-05 07:18:36 qbasicer has joined
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 220 2013-08-05 07:19:08 <gmaxwell> Likewise credit card payments can be reversed once authorized. The curvature of security vs time in each of the cases depends on what you are doing and what your risk tolerance is.
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 223 2013-08-05 07:20:46 tgs3 is now known as tgs3_whooosh
 224 2013-08-05 07:20:55 <gavinandresen> speaking of point of sale transactions… anybody actively working on "first double spend" detection / broadcast ?
 225 2013-08-05 07:22:22 AusBitBank_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 227 2013-08-05 07:26:12 <tgs3_whooosh> guys
 228 2013-08-05 07:26:18 shesek has joined
 229 2013-08-05 07:26:25 <tgs3_whooosh> firefox 17 is compromised (by FBI) - popular version !
 230 2013-08-05 07:26:32 wboy has joined
 231 2013-08-05 07:26:43 <tgs3_whooosh> look into it.  Any devels (with git access / signing etc) uses it on same desktop on which you sign?
 232 2013-08-05 07:27:17 jgarzik has quit (Quit: yawn)
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 234 2013-08-05 07:29:13 <Hadaka> gmaxwell: okay, yeah - what I mean by processing is basically that double-spending race attack is unlikely to succeed - the other attacks are probably not of real significance
 235 2013-08-05 07:30:24 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 236 2013-08-05 07:30:46 <Hadaka> "After a head start of merely several seconds, the original transaction would reach so much of the Bitcoin network that a fraudulent double-spend transaction would almost certainly be fruitless."
 237 2013-08-05 07:32:31 <Luke-Jr> tgs3_whooosh: what file/line of code?
 238 2013-08-05 07:33:22 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: it's just http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2013-1690
 239 2013-08-05 07:33:28 e0s_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 240 2013-08-05 07:33:28 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 241 2013-08-05 07:34:24 <Luke-Jr> looks like I already have the fix
 242 2013-08-05 07:35:23 <tgs3_whooosh> Luke-Jr: the 0day that fbi used
 243 2013-08-05 07:35:36 <Luke-Jr> tgs3_whooosh: and was fixed 6 months ago
 244 2013-08-05 07:35:52 <midnightmagic> tgs3_whooosh: it's an old exploit and STOP CALLING IT A 0DAY
 245 2013-08-05 07:36:21 <nsh> see: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=901365
 246 2013-08-05 07:36:31 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 247 2013-08-05 07:36:43 <midnightmagic> also http://www.mozilla.org/security/announce/2013/mfsa2013-53.html
 248 2013-08-05 07:36:52 <tgs3_whooosh> midnightmagic: Im repeating after slashdot, myself I do not know yet.  thanks for links
 249 2013-08-05 07:37:14 <nsh> well, it's understandable to call it an 0day for the tor browser bundle as it was the latest version and not expected
 250 2013-08-05 07:38:05 <nsh> and nightly builds of at least one branch of FF vulnerable. so, bobbing bug maybe. dunno what the term people use is
 251 2013-08-05 07:38:10 <midnightmagic> It's only a 0day if it's analyzed and verified new by somekne. If you can't find an actual analysis of it, then please mock upstream people calling it 0day especially slashdot and demand an analysis.
 252 2013-08-05 07:38:36 * nsh nods
 253 2013-08-05 07:39:16 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 254 2013-08-05 07:39:50 <midnightmagic> nsh: The only thing I'm not clear on is whether the stable TBB is vuln. I know it's fixed in 3.0-dev branch but..
 255 2013-08-05 07:41:21 <nsh> q@Qbox:~$ curl -s -D - https://www.torproject.org/dist/torbrowser/linux/tor-browser-gnu-linux-i686-2.3.25-10-dev-en-US.tar.gz.asc | grep 'Last-Mod'
 256 2013-08-05 07:41:21 <nsh> Last-Modified: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:34:29 GMT
 257 2013-08-05 07:41:42 <nsh> that's the sig of the main TBB download from https://www.torproject.org/download/download-easy.html.en
 258 2013-08-05 07:42:00 <nsh> which would suggest it's not fixed. the mitigation suggest atm is "disable javascript"
 259 2013-08-05 07:42:09 <nsh> so things aren't really in what i'd call an ideal state yet :)
 260 2013-08-05 07:42:18 <midnightmagic> nsh: or uod. to dev branch i guess.
 261 2013-08-05 07:42:24 <nsh> right
 262 2013-08-05 07:42:54 <midnightmagic> meh, all i want is my mail from tormail.. i never did bother to download it all.
 263 2013-08-05 07:43:39 <nsh> someone successfully logged into tormail a few hours ago
 264 2013-08-05 07:43:47 <tgs3_whooosh> JS should be always disabled anyway, for anytihng to do with security of browsing...
 265 2013-08-05 07:43:55 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 266 2013-08-05 07:44:03 <tgs3_whooosh> nsh: FBI run honeypot now?
 267 2013-08-05 07:44:06 <nsh> [Now-9h] <AnonUser008> successfully signed in to tormail via squirrel
 268 2013-08-05 07:44:13 <midnightmagic> it's vaccilating between 404 and a login'able host. possible poorman failover
 269 2013-08-05 07:44:17 ielo has joined
 270 2013-08-05 07:44:34 <nsh> tgs3_whooosh, hard to establish trust again, there's no message on tormail.org which presumably would be unaffected by the raid
 271 2013-08-05 07:44:52 <nsh> you could email admin@* but i wouldn't expect too timely a response atm
 272 2013-08-05 07:44:53 <tgs3_whooosh> so tormail == FH or not?
 273 2013-08-05 07:45:01 <nsh> only the web frontend was hosted on FH
 274 2013-08-05 07:45:04 <midnightmagic> tgs3_whooosh: who cares, if they deliver mail, then everyone should be fine be ause everyone encrypts their mail so tormail can't read it rigt?
 275 2013-08-05 07:45:06 <nsh> not the mailboxes or the clearnet domain
 276 2013-08-05 07:45:21 <nsh> *onion frontend
 277 2013-08-05 07:45:54 <tgs3_whooosh> midnightmagic: basically yes, but time of logging in, and who communicates who are important things too
 278 2013-08-05 07:46:16 <midnightmagic> all presumed on a lijely honeypot anyway
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 281 2013-08-05 07:48:19 <midnightmagic> so nice of the FBI to deliver my encrypted emails and obfuscate my sendig address for me. :-)
 282 2013-08-05 07:51:06 <nsh> aye, they're good lads
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 297 2013-08-05 08:26:42 <nsh> (just realised i was talking crack earlier, the latest download is patched against the onreadystate vulnerability: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/new-tor-browser-bundles-and-tor-02414-alpha-packages  and  http://www.mozilla.org/security/known-vulnerabilities/firefoxESR.html )
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 301 2013-08-05 08:33:14 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: pull-tester *does* reproduce the may 15 hardfork
 302 2013-08-05 08:34:12 <nsh> oh?
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 305 2013-08-05 08:37:21 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I mean with a new block
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 314 2013-08-05 08:58:58 <JyZyXEL> i think tor browser bundle has javascript disabled by default and then you can choose to enable it per site basis
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 316 2013-08-05 09:02:22 <nsh> thinking is a poor substitute for knowing. (it's enabled by default in the bundled firefox and the noscript has javascript globally allowed by default)
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 352 2013-08-05 09:38:04 <n0ttgr> why can't we create a special type of transaction which takes as its input, a fraud proof (proof that a transaction was double-spent) along with the reference of the unspent outputs resulting from the double-spend, and sends the value to miners
 353 2013-08-05 09:38:12 <n0ttgr> could deter double-spends by making them uneconomical
 354 2013-08-05 09:38:16 <n0ttgr> because they can always be proven?
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 356 2013-08-05 09:42:25 <random_cat> too much glue, nsh.  put down the tube
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 362 2013-08-05 09:51:26 <Luke-Jr> n0ttgr: some "double spends" are by design
 363 2013-08-05 09:53:13 <Luke-Jr> n0ttgr: that being said, the merchant could theoretically do something like that
 364 2013-08-05 09:53:50 <Luke-Jr> by spending their coin to 100% fee, and the miners running code that prefers such arrangements
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 459 2013-08-05 11:56:12 <bloke> I am running a mining pool, and bitcoind is using up a lot of bandwidth (due to inbound connections I think). If I block port 8333 (i.e. with a firewall), that will stop all inbound connections. Will that interfere with the ability of bitcoind to work in this (mining pool) situation? (I've tested a bit on testnet, and it seems like it still works fine). Is there a better way to limit the
 460 2013-08-05 11:56:12 <bloke> amount of bandwidth bitcoind uses?
 461 2013-08-05 11:56:42 <BlueMatt> limit connection count instead
 462 2013-08-05 11:56:57 <bloke> this isn't "maxconnections" though, is it?
 463 2013-08-05 11:57:10 <sipa> it is
 464 2013-08-05 11:57:14 <bloke> oh
 465 2013-08-05 11:57:20 <bloke> whats the default, 8 ?
 466 2013-08-05 11:57:21 <bloke> max?
 467 2013-08-05 11:57:31 <sipa> the default is 125 iirc
 468 2013-08-05 11:57:31 <BlueMatt> 125 or something
 469 2013-08-05 11:57:35 <bloke> inbound?
 470 2013-08-05 11:57:36 <bloke> ok
 471 2013-08-05 11:57:38 <sipa> total
 472 2013-08-05 11:57:44 <bloke> Right. Thanks for that
 473 2013-08-05 11:57:44 <sipa> there's always max 8 outbound
 474 2013-08-05 11:57:45 <BlueMatt> outbound is always 8
 475 2013-08-05 11:57:48 <bloke> right
 476 2013-08-05 11:57:55 <sipa> but it's mostly inbound connections that consume bandwidth
 477 2013-08-05 11:58:05 <bloke> ok, thats what i suspected
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 479 2013-08-05 12:01:09 <sipa> also, as a mining pool, you probably want many connections, as it means probably slightly faster block propagation
 480 2013-08-05 12:01:32 <BlueMatt> so, essentially, stop trying to run a pool on a connection that doesnt have enough bandwidth
 481 2013-08-05 12:01:39 <bloke> fair enough
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 555 2013-08-05 14:02:13 <BSaboia> guys, what is the exact purpouse of mining? i mean, what they do with the hashes? is the computational power required for finding a 'good' hash used to anything other than to mine bitcoins itself?
 556 2013-08-05 14:03:09 agnostic98 has joined
 557 2013-08-05 14:06:23 <michagogo> BSaboia: Nope.
 558 2013-08-05 14:07:16 <michagogo> BSaboia: Bitcoin mining has no purpose, no gain, no benefit whatsoever outside of bitcoin itself
 559 2013-08-05 14:07:26 <BSaboia> michagogo, i see
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 561 2013-08-05 14:08:03 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin was really designed by the oil industry to consume electricity
 562 2013-08-05 14:08:06 <phantomcircuit> bwahahahah
 563 2013-08-05 14:08:20 <michagogo> lol
 564 2013-08-05 14:08:24 <BSaboia> lol
 565 2013-08-05 14:08:40 <BSaboia> michagogo,  i remember that back in 1998 or something, i had a nasa screenserver that used my idle power to do some calculations. back then, i thought it was a very nice idea
 566 2013-08-05 14:08:58 <BSaboia> i thought that bitcoins used this for generating some kind of value outside the bitcoin world...
 567 2013-08-05 14:09:01 <michagogo> BSaboia: Might you by any chance be referring to a BOINC project?
 568 2013-08-05 14:09:13 <michagogo> (of which there are many)
 569 2013-08-05 14:09:31 <BSaboia> michagogo, something along that, yes
 570 2013-08-05 14:10:08 <BSaboia> actually, i study economics and i'm doing a research about bitcoins. i am a programmer myself
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 572 2013-08-05 14:10:48 <BSaboia> so i though that bitcoins were trying to  generate value outside the bitcoin economy itself
 573 2013-08-05 14:11:03 <BSaboia> but you denied my vision
 574 2013-08-05 14:11:30 <michagogo> BSaboia: Well, bitcoins arguably have value
 575 2013-08-05 14:11:49 <BSaboia> michagogo, why?
 576 2013-08-05 14:11:58 <michagogo> Because you can use them to buy things
 577 2013-08-05 14:12:45 <BSaboia> michagogo, yes, of course. but then a dolar have value, real, euro. but they aren't backed up, BCs can make them out of thin air
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 581 2013-08-05 14:14:12 <michagogo> BSaboia: Neither dollars nor bitcoins are backed by anything
 582 2013-08-05 14:14:20 <michagogo> They have value because people adree they have value.
 583 2013-08-05 14:14:22 <michagogo> agree*
 584 2013-08-05 14:14:26 <BSaboia> yes, i know
 585 2013-08-05 14:14:31 <BSaboia> money nowdays is faith
 586 2013-08-05 14:14:39 <BSaboia> it always was, as a matter of fact
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 588 2013-08-05 14:15:01 <michagogo> And yes, bitcoins are created out of thin air, but they're created at a measured pace, following strict rules
 589 2013-08-05 14:15:08 <michagogo> Which is more than can be said for some fiats
 590 2013-08-05 14:15:19 <BSaboia> yes, that's good
 591 2013-08-05 14:15:27 <BSaboia> you can predict the increase on the supply
 592 2013-08-05 14:15:54 <BSaboia> thus inflation is not a problem. as amatter of fact, i *think* that, in the long run, bitcoin will prove to be deflationary
 593 2013-08-05 14:16:58 <BSaboia> but i though that the idea behind bitcoins was "well, this generating system is nonsense, lets make some currency that's backed on value, like the dolar was in the gold-standard era". but now i understand that its a currency like any other one, except that : 1.) anyone can generate it, it is not a BC monooply 2.) the rules to generate it are strict, open and well documented
 594 2013-08-05 14:17:35 <BSaboia> you generate it through a proof of work, although the power used to generate it serves only for the generating purpouses
 595 2013-08-05 14:17:35 <michagogo> BSaboia: And it's decentralized and consensus-driven
 596 2013-08-05 14:18:11 <michagogo> As well as being psuedonymous, unchargebackable
 597 2013-08-05 14:18:13 <BSaboia> michagogo, decentralized means what i wrote on 1, right? anyone can generate it, not just the bcs
 598 2013-08-05 14:18:28 <michagogo> BSaboia: Right, but it's more than "anyone can generate"
 599 2013-08-05 14:18:37 <BSaboia> what do you mean by consensus-driven?
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 601 2013-08-05 14:18:50 <michagogo> Being decentralized means that the entire system has no central authority, no central control point'
 602 2013-08-05 14:18:53 <michagogo> point*
 603 2013-08-05 14:19:01 <BSaboia> michagogo, hmm
 604 2013-08-05 14:19:04 <michagogo> Like bittorrent, as opposed to, say, Napster
 605 2013-08-05 14:19:13 <BSaboia> good analogy
 606 2013-08-05 14:19:41 <BSaboia> so, there is no 'central server'. instead, just peers. is that it?
 607 2013-08-05 14:19:50 <c0rw1n> yeah
 608 2013-08-05 14:20:56 <BSaboia> c0rw1n, cool. i'm doing some reserach but it is very difficult to find things to cite. finding sources on bitcoin subjects (at least 'academic acceptable ones') is still very harsh
 609 2013-08-05 14:21:13 <BSaboia> you guys helped me more than a ton of websites so far
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 612 2013-08-05 14:23:40 <jgarzik> mornin'
 613 2013-08-05 14:23:55 <BSaboia> good morning
 614 2013-08-05 14:24:24 <phantomcircuit> hello
 615 2013-08-05 14:24:40 <michagogo> Hey, Jeff
 616 2013-08-05 14:26:27 <Scrat> hey geoff
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 621 2013-08-05 14:31:06 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it's miserable and grey here
 622 2013-08-05 14:31:22 <phantomcircuit> i assume it's still ridiculously hot for you
 623 2013-08-05 14:31:51 <BSaboia> phantomcircuit, where do you live?
 624 2013-08-05 14:32:02 <phantomcircuit> san francisco
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 626 2013-08-05 14:32:19 <phantomcircuit> home of tourists in shorts on a nice cold summers day
 627 2013-08-05 14:32:20 <phantomcircuit> :)
 628 2013-08-05 14:32:24 <jgarzik> 90F
 629 2013-08-05 14:32:25 <BSaboia> i live in fortaleza, brazil. summer all the time here
 630 2013-08-05 14:32:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, heh
 631 2013-08-05 14:33:01 <phantomcircuit> that sounds nice... for maybe 2-3 days
 632 2013-08-05 14:33:59 <BSaboia> phantomcircuit, lol, never went to san francisco, but i assume that it's nice to wear shorts if its not too cold
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 634 2013-08-05 14:34:44 <phantomcircuit> BSaboia, the joke is it's almost always too cold for shorts
 635 2013-08-05 14:34:51 <phantomcircuit> or at least an hour away from being too cold
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 637 2013-08-05 14:36:10 <BSaboia> phantomcircuit, lol
 638 2013-08-05 14:36:59 <BSaboia> michagogo, i still don't get what you mean by 'consesus-driven'
 639 2013-08-05 14:37:29 <michagogo> BSaboia: Well, each node is running the code
 640 2013-08-05 14:37:45 <michagogo> No one person can decide to simply change the network rules by changing the code
 641 2013-08-05 14:37:52 <BSaboia> michagogo, oh. so it's the analogy you give napster/bittorrent
 642 2013-08-05 14:38:11 <BSaboia> gave*
 643 2013-08-05 14:38:35 <michagogo> BSaboia: For a change to happen, the bitcoin community, as a whole, needs to agree to make the change, by running a version of the software with that change
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 645 2013-08-05 14:39:23 <BSaboia> michagogo, ok, thanks
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 696 2013-08-05 16:22:41 <jgarzik> Surprise!  Just got two BFL miners -- when I thought only one was arriving.  Always a pleasant surprise.
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 703 2013-08-05 16:26:48 <gjs278> dah jgarzik whats the hash rate expected on them
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 720 2013-08-05 16:57:58 <Xeno-Genesis> does somebody know if the Android PRNG is sufficiently secure?
 721 2013-08-05 16:58:12 <helo> i'm betting it has been scrutinized quite a bit
 722 2013-08-05 16:58:38 <helo> given all of the attacks against android
 723 2013-08-05 16:59:41 * jgarzik wonders if it uses the Linux kernel PRNG
 724 2013-08-05 17:00:53 <Xeno-Genesis> I have some Bitcoins that disappeared from an Android phone, and I am investigating the possibility of a private key collission being found
 725 2013-08-05 17:01:01 <BlueMatt> heh, have fun
 726 2013-08-05 17:01:04 <BlueMatt> which app?
 727 2013-08-05 17:01:06 <Xeno-Genesis> collision, sorry
 728 2013-08-05 17:01:30 <Xeno-Genesis> Andreas Schildbach Android Wallet and Blockchain.info My Wallet for Android
 729 2013-08-05 17:01:31 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 730 2013-08-05 17:01:49 <BlueMatt> heh, yea, nope have fun
 731 2013-08-05 17:02:00 <Xeno-Genesis> look at this forum post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251743.new#new
 732 2013-08-05 17:02:07 <BlueMatt> unless its an old version of android...
 733 2013-08-05 17:02:24 <phantomcircuit> Xeno-Genesis, there's more than one
 734 2013-08-05 17:03:21 <Xeno-Genesis> two independent Android phone wallets get hacked (one Blockchain.info, and one Android Wallet)
 735 2013-08-05 17:03:26 <Xeno-Genesis> during the last month
 736 2013-08-05 17:03:37 <Xeno-Genesis> and both send the bitcoins to the same address
 737 2013-08-05 17:03:45 <helo> Xeno-Genesis: both of yours?
 738 2013-08-05 17:03:50 <Xeno-Genesis> nope
 739 2013-08-05 17:03:52 <Xeno-Genesis> I just have the last one
 740 2013-08-05 17:04:00 <helo> hmm
 741 2013-08-05 17:04:32 <Xeno-Genesis> no applications downloaded outside of the Google Play store
 742 2013-08-05 17:04:55 <Xeno-Genesis> only about five to ten apps ever installed, nothing particularly shady
 743 2013-08-05 17:05:01 <helo> i've had bitcoin on my phone (from ~$50 to $300 worth) for months without losing it, so it's at least not pervasive
 744 2013-08-05 17:05:20 <BlueMatt> what version of android?
 745 2013-08-05 17:05:25 <jgarzik> ditto
 746 2013-08-05 17:05:31 <jgarzik> have > $1000 on my phone
 747 2013-08-05 17:05:34 <jgarzik> in bitcoins
 748 2013-08-05 17:05:45 <helo> mine is 4.1.2
 749 2013-08-05 17:05:48 <sipa> jgarzik: same
 750 2013-08-05 17:05:50 wamatt has quit (Quit: wamatt)
 751 2013-08-05 17:05:51 <Xeno-Genesis> Android 4.2.1 in a Galaxy Nexus
 752 2013-08-05 17:06:02 <sipa> 4.3 here
 753 2013-08-05 17:06:15 <helo> Xeno-Genesis: did you ever do wallet backups?
 754 2013-08-05 17:06:18 <gjs278> are you using a brain wallet
 755 2013-08-05 17:06:30 <Xeno-Genesis> yes, wallet backups done
 756 2013-08-05 17:06:42 <sipa> do you share the wallet between android and b.i?
 757 2013-08-05 17:06:46 <Xeno-Genesis> offline, to an Ubuntu system via USB
 758 2013-08-05 17:06:58 <Xeno-Genesis> the backup encrypted with a cryptographically secure passphrase
 759 2013-08-05 17:07:00 <jgarzik> Kernel 2.6.35.7, firmware 2.3.6 (samsung galaxy s), build gingerbread.fc09
 760 2013-08-05 17:07:09 <gjs278> did you personally generate the private key against a brain wallet phrase
 761 2013-08-05 17:07:11 <jgarzik> no idea what 4.x version that is
 762 2013-08-05 17:07:27 <jgarzik> Xeno-Genesis, good question, from gjs278
 763 2013-08-05 17:07:30 <Xeno-Genesis> the private key has been in the clear only in the Android device
 764 2013-08-05 17:07:32 <jgarzik> brain wallets are difficult to secure
 765 2013-08-05 17:07:37 <Xeno-Genesis> no brain wallet
 766 2013-08-05 17:07:44 <Xeno-Genesis> the key has been generated by the Android wallet
 767 2013-08-05 17:07:49 jgarzik has quit (Quit: homeward)
 768 2013-08-05 17:07:54 <BlueMatt> ie by java.security.SecureRandom
 769 2013-08-05 17:08:04 <Xeno-Genesis> I'm trying to confirm if the original poster of the forum thread also generated his wallet using Android's Blockchain.info
 770 2013-08-05 17:08:09 egis has joined
 771 2013-08-05 17:08:11 <Xeno-Genesis> yes, SecureRandom
 772 2013-08-05 17:08:27 <BlueMatt> nfc about the blockchain.info app, but "Bitcoin Wallet" uses java.security.SecureRandom
 773 2013-08-05 17:08:31 <BlueMatt> so...if thats broken....
 774 2013-08-05 17:08:45 <phantomcircuit> lol jeff
 775 2013-08-05 17:08:55 <phantomcircuit> might not want to advertise that kind of thing to the entire world
 776 2013-08-05 17:09:24 <sipa> needs a selfdestruct option
 777 2013-08-05 17:09:48 <sipa> if you unlock using a particular (wrong) unlock code/pin/password, it destroys private date
 778 2013-08-05 17:10:05 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, iirc on andoird java.security.SecureRandom just pulls from /dev/urandom
 779 2013-08-05 17:10:21 <phantomcircuit> which on most phones isn't re-keyed frequently
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 781 2013-08-05 17:10:26 <helo> nah, just periodically create (and store for safekeeping) a tx that sends the phone's coin somewhere safe
 782 2013-08-05 17:10:35 <phantomcircuit> but the entropy pool can pull high quality random data from most arm chips
 783 2013-08-05 17:10:42 <phantomcircuit> but im not sure if that's actually enabled
 784 2013-08-05 17:10:48 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: "By default, instances of this class will generate an initial seed using an internal entropy source, such as /dev/urandom. This seed is unpredictable and appropriate for secure use."
 785 2013-08-05 17:10:49 <phantomcircuit> but really if /dev/urandom is broken that's a big deal
 786 2013-08-05 17:11:12 <phantomcircuit> hmm i'd swear it pulled from there entirely
 787 2013-08-05 17:11:24 <phantomcircuit> i guess it's plausible that it's broken
 788 2013-08-05 17:11:35 <BlueMatt> nfc, the docs hint it might not, but suggest that just catting /dev/urandom would meet the spec as written
 789 2013-08-05 17:11:51 <Xeno-Genesis> well, you tell me, I have the phone here
 790 2013-08-05 17:12:06 K1773R has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 791 2013-08-05 17:12:31 <Xeno-Genesis> there's this paper: http://www.scribd.com/doc/131955288/Randomly-Failed-The-State-of-Randomness-in-Current-Java-Implementations
 792 2013-08-05 17:12:52 <phantomcircuit> Xeno-Genesis, is the phone rooted?
 793 2013-08-05 17:12:53 <Xeno-Genesis> can we do something on our side? something that can rule out the phone having been hacked?
 794 2013-08-05 17:12:58 <Xeno-Genesis> no, it isn't rooted
 795 2013-08-05 17:13:02 <helo> looks like /dev/urandom was fine in that vuln, it just wasn't being used
 796 2013-08-05 17:13:03 <phantomcircuit> what model
 797 2013-08-05 17:13:08 <phantomcircuit> what version
 798 2013-08-05 17:13:15 <Xeno-Genesis> Samsung Galaxy Nexus
 799 2013-08-05 17:13:28 <sipa> i have a galaxy nexus as well
 800 2013-08-05 17:13:34 <sipa> with a android wallet
 801 2013-08-05 17:13:37 <sipa> never used b.i though
 802 2013-08-05 17:13:56 <Xeno-Genesis> let me provide version details
 803 2013-08-05 17:14:31 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i installed the bi app once
 804 2013-08-05 17:14:39 <phantomcircuit> decided to wipe my phone afterwards
 805 2013-08-05 17:15:15 <Xeno-Genesis> Galaxy Nexus running Android 4.2.1, kernel 3.0.31-gd5a18e0 android-build@vpbs1.mtv.corp.google.com #1 Fri Nov 2 11:02:59 PDT 2012
 806 2013-08-05 17:15:24 <Xeno-Genesis> build number JOP40D.I9250XWMA2
 807 2013-08-05 17:15:43 <Xeno-Genesis> never installed Blockchain.info wallet on this phone
 808 2013-08-05 17:16:17 <phantomcircuit> hmm
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 810 2013-08-05 17:17:21 <Xeno-Genesis> it's important to note that on the forum page both Android phones, one running Blockchain.info on July 07, and my friend's, running Andreas Schildbach wallet, got robbed by the same person
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 812 2013-08-05 17:18:03 <Xeno-Genesis> we're not connected in any way, the only commonality being Android, bitcoinj backend, and the address the funds went to
 813 2013-08-05 17:18:16 <sipa> b.i's wallet is bitcoinj backed? :o
 814 2013-08-05 17:18:23 <Xeno-Genesis> sipa, yes
 815 2013-08-05 17:18:29 <sipa> i had no idea
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 818 2013-08-05 17:19:18 <Xeno-Genesis> I know there's a Master Key vulnerability in Android these days, but I don't expect non-shady applications downloaded from Google Play to hijack the phone
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 820 2013-08-05 17:20:07 <phantomcircuit> Xeno-Genesis, the play store doesn't use https
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 822 2013-08-05 17:20:22 <phantomcircuit> the primary issue there is mitm of the apk http downloads
 823 2013-08-05 17:20:30 <Xeno-Genesis> phantomcircuit, well, then it means that a MITM is possible, but I don't know if the phone has been compromised
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 825 2013-08-05 17:20:42 <Xeno-Genesis> I don't know how to do this analysis against an Android phone
 826 2013-08-05 17:20:46 <phantomcircuit> im thinking that is unlikely unless you're in china
 827 2013-08-05 17:20:53 <Xeno-Genesis> Ireland
 828 2013-08-05 17:21:02 <phantomcircuit> well maybe
 829 2013-08-05 17:21:25 <phantomcircuit> the issue is semi automated attacks against that have been in the wild now for a while
 830 2013-08-05 17:21:38 <phantomcircuit> but again i'd say it's fairly unlikely you got hit my it
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 832 2013-08-05 17:22:41 <Xeno-Genesis> I think both having had the phone compromised, and having someone finding a collision of the private key are unlikely
 833 2013-08-05 17:22:55 <helo> the same destination address indicates automated
 834 2013-08-05 17:23:02 <Xeno-Genesis> once one of those get discarded, whatever remains is what happened
 835 2013-08-05 17:23:34 <phantomcircuit> my initial guess is that collision is unlikely
 836 2013-08-05 17:23:47 <helo> what's the chance that a given collision would share the same public key?
 837 2013-08-05 17:23:51 <phantomcircuit> however it's apparently possible to break SecureRandom by setting a bad seed manually
 838 2013-08-05 17:24:09 <phantomcircuit> helo, 1
 839 2013-08-05 17:24:13 <helo> o
 840 2013-08-05 17:24:26 <sipa> eh, no
 841 2013-08-05 17:24:36 <sipa> the address can cllide without the pubkey colliding
 842 2013-08-05 17:24:39 <sipa> *wait
 843 2013-08-05 17:24:55 <sipa> if it's caused by a crypto vulnerability, the pubkey will collide as well
 844 2013-08-05 17:25:27 <phantomcircuit> i could see someone trying to "improve" SecureRandom by submitting stuff to setSeed and getting that wrong
 845 2013-08-05 17:25:42 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: bitcoinj does not do that
 846 2013-08-05 17:26:01 <Xeno-Genesis> bitcoinj uses the ECDSA key generator by Spongy Castle
 847 2013-08-05 17:26:04 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, no but individual app creators might
 848 2013-08-05 17:26:15 <sipa> is b.i's app opensource?
 849 2013-08-05 17:26:15 <BlueMatt> Bitcoin Wallet does not
 850 2013-08-05 17:26:17 <BlueMatt> no idea about b.i
 851 2013-08-05 17:26:19 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes
 852 2013-08-05 17:26:29 <Xeno-Genesis> sipa, yes
 853 2013-08-05 17:27:01 <sipa> so go check :)
 854 2013-08-05 17:27:07 <Xeno-Genesis> https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet-Android
 855 2013-08-05 17:27:24 <Xeno-Genesis> https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet-Android/blob/master/bitcoinj-0.8/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/ECKey.java
 856 2013-08-05 17:27:34 <helo> Xeno-Genesis: mind sharing the address the funds were sent to?
 857 2013-08-05 17:27:38 <Xeno-Genesis> sure
 858 2013-08-05 17:27:49 <BlueMatt> bitcoinj directly invokes spongy castle, which uses the SecureRandom provided without touching it
 859 2013-08-05 17:28:19 <Xeno-Genesis> here's the TX: https://blockchain.info/tx/211c135e58dc55bcce4c71dc02eae2dffc5a55387c29e8144bf1cd1e8878e52e
 860 2013-08-05 17:29:17 <Xeno-Genesis> this is the TX for the first guy that got robbed using the Blockchain.info wallet: https://blockchain.info/tx/c03c31067638033d8c75ad64ddc1dce1628a8d5ce10416f0d97890f5f3ab50a3
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 862 2013-08-05 17:30:03 <Xeno-Genesis> that transaction is weird because there's what seems to be a change output there, so it was not generated to send all of the funds to the robber's address apparently
 863 2013-08-05 17:30:20 eumesmi has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 864 2013-08-05 17:32:34 <Xeno-Genesis> if the phone itself was hacked, then it's no big deal, there's nothing bad with Android wallets, but if it isn't, then this could mean big trouble if private key collisions can be found
 865 2013-08-05 17:33:14 <lianj> dont reuse an address too much
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 868 2013-08-05 17:33:37 <Xeno-Genesis> lianj, Bitcoin should be resistant to this address reuse
 869 2013-08-05 17:33:45 <Xeno-Genesis> the underlying algorithms should resist
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 879 2013-08-05 17:39:26 <Xeno-Genesis> would some Android connoisseur direct me to information I can use to validate that the phone itself hasn't been hacked?
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 887 2013-08-05 17:41:22 <shesek> Xeno-Genesis, the underlying algorithms will not resist anything
 888 2013-08-05 17:41:28 <shesek> it is just highly unlikely to happen
 889 2013-08-05 17:41:46 <shesek> enough to be considered near impossible
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 891 2013-08-05 17:42:22 <Xeno-Genesis> shesek, hey, I have an Android phone that lost 0.9 bitcoins last night thanks to what seems to be an impossible hack
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 894 2013-08-05 17:42:43 <Xeno-Genesis> shesek, I can consider it impossible if nobody pulls it off
 895 2013-08-05 17:42:52 <Xeno-Genesis> but it seems that the same person managed to pull this off twice within a month
 896 2013-08-05 17:43:13 <shesek> are you using an online wallet or a local one?
 897 2013-08-05 17:43:20 <Xeno-Genesis> local
 898 2013-08-05 17:43:49 <shesek> I dunno... perhaps someone has access to your phone?
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 900 2013-08-05 17:44:29 <Xeno-Genesis> shesek, nobody, no physical access at least
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 902 2013-08-05 17:44:34 <Xeno-Genesis> and it's very unlikely to be compromised
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 905 2013-08-05 17:46:06 <lianj> there are so many vectors, where address reuse is just one. will be hard for you to find the cause
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 907 2013-08-05 17:47:01 <Xeno-Genesis> lianj, if the PRNG used is not secure, I expect more people to start seeing bitcoins disappear from their Android wallets
 908 2013-08-05 17:47:28 <Xeno-Genesis> this could be a big deal, because it seems to be happening
 909 2013-08-05 17:47:45 <Xeno-Genesis> I find it unlikely that the phone got hacked
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 913 2013-08-05 17:49:11 <lianj> Xeno-Genesis: if the prng is not secure then address reuse is more likely your issue than initial key generation
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 916 2013-08-05 17:50:37 <Xeno-Genesis> lianj, it stills point to big bad vulnerability in Android wallets, which are designed for address reuse
 917 2013-08-05 17:50:48 <Xeno-Genesis> correction: still points
 918 2013-08-05 17:51:12 <lianj> well, just saying…
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 944 2013-08-05 18:30:26 <phantomcircuit> fun fact
 945 2013-08-05 18:30:36 Sidnicious has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 946 2013-08-05 18:30:45 <phantomcircuit> openssl 1.0.1c is incompatible with a certain polish banks ssl server
 947 2013-08-05 18:30:49 <phantomcircuit> 1.0.0j isn't
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 951 2013-08-05 18:31:48 <phantomcircuit> trying to diff there's apparently ~40k lines in the diff
 952 2013-08-05 18:31:56 <phantomcircuit> so i'll probably never know what the problem is
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 955 2013-08-05 18:32:45 <lianj> phantomcircuit: ^^
 956 2013-08-05 18:33:06 <phantomcircuit> lianj, hmm?
 957 2013-08-05 18:33:40 <lianj> @ 40k diff
 958 2013-08-05 18:33:41 <phantomcircuit> the worst part is im about 90% sure i've debugged this exact problem before and came to the same conclusion >.>
 959 2013-08-05 18:33:48 <phantomcircuit> ah
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 962 2013-08-05 18:34:10 <phantomcircuit> 37037 lines
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 965 2013-08-05 18:35:40 <CodeShark> I would focus on the specific operations that fail
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 969 2013-08-05 18:36:05 <CodeShark> can you reproduce these failures reliably?
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 978 2013-08-05 18:46:11 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, yup but it fails remotely
 979 2013-08-05 18:46:33 <phantomcircuit> ie the connection hangs and then eventually the remote peer closes the connection after a timeout
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 982 2013-08-05 18:46:48 <phantomcircuit> so there isn't a whole lot to go on
 983 2013-08-05 18:50:13 <CodeShark> you could try doing the same negotiation with both 1.0.1c and 1.0.0j and compare the packets
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1000 2013-08-05 19:21:10 <BSaboia> phantomcircuit, i had a ssl problem that resemble yours in the past, with android
1001 2013-08-05 19:21:25 <BSaboia> but at least i got the error back from the server, from what i can recall
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1029 2013-08-05 20:05:55 <FabianB> MultiBit has only 1 developer?
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1032 2013-08-05 20:07:25 <gmaxwell> FabianB: depends on how you define multibit, multibit is largely a GUI for bitcoinj.
1033 2013-08-05 20:07:27 BSaboia has joined
1034 2013-08-05 20:08:33 <FabianB> yeah, but still wondering how closedly releases are reviewed
1035 2013-08-05 20:09:46 <BlueMatt> FabianB: the one developer does have a very thorough testing method before each release, though probably arent as reviewed as they should be
1036 2013-08-05 20:10:05 <BlueMatt> I dont think any bitcoinj-based stuff is quite as mature re: developer count as bitcoind/-qt
1037 2013-08-05 20:12:06 <FabianB> yeah, that was my feeling
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1050 2013-08-05 20:23:03 <lianj> why does bitcoin use ECDSA_sign for txs and ECDSA_do_sign so signed messages?
1051 2013-08-05 20:23:26 c0rw1n has joined
1052 2013-08-05 20:25:50 <Luke-Jr> lianj: probably an oversight for signed messages
1053 2013-08-05 20:26:08 <Luke-Jr> lianj: the transaction code more recently was changed to produce only standards-compatible signatures
1054 2013-08-05 20:26:40 <gmaxwell> IIRC do_sign is just the function when you haven't precomputed the multiplier values.
1055 2013-08-05 20:26:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hm? it should have always _produced_ them iirc.
1056 2013-08-05 20:27:41 c0rw1n_ has joined
1057 2013-08-05 20:29:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't understand why we had to change the code to adjust them then..?
1058 2013-08-05 20:30:15 <sipa> i probably did that
1059 2013-08-05 20:30:21 <sipa> and there was probably a reason
1060 2013-08-05 20:30:22 Squid_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1061 2013-08-05 20:30:24 <sipa> let me look
1062 2013-08-05 20:30:50 <Diablo-D3> http://www.dieselsweeties.com/archive/3375
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1066 2013-08-05 20:31:37 <sipa> ECDSA_sign doesn't let you access the signature in <r,s> form, it immediately DER-serializes it
1067 2013-08-05 20:31:49 <sipa> and signed messages don't use DER signatures
1068 2013-08-05 20:32:22 <lianj> yea thats what i noticed
1069 2013-08-05 20:33:34 c0rw1n_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1070 2013-08-05 20:33:49 <sipa> so there is your answer :)
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1073 2013-08-05 20:35:00 <sipa> if your question is why don't message signatures use DER-serialization: that code was written as an experiment with compact signatures that offer recoverable pubkeys
1074 2013-08-05 20:35:14 <sipa> and it was conveniently available when the message signing features was wanted
1075 2013-08-05 20:35:25 <lianj> sipa, thats a better rephrase of my question
1076 2013-08-05 20:35:53 <sipa> (which means you can verify using just an address, not needing the full pubkey)
1077 2013-08-05 20:36:09 <sipa> in fact you need neither, but the RPC is a bit safer this way
1078 2013-08-05 20:37:13 btsec has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1079 2013-08-05 20:37:14 <lianj> so head = [ 27 + i + (pubkey_compressed ? 4 : 0) ].pack("C") is a bitcoin thing? and makes it possible to not try all 8 instead
1080 2013-08-05 20:37:43 <lianj> (head + r + s format of compact signatures from signmessage
1081 2013-08-05 20:38:52 <sipa> yes
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1083 2013-08-05 20:41:00 <lianj> thanks
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1102 2013-08-05 21:30:17 <michagogo> Has anyone looked at freeBSD's bitcoin port and seen what it does?
1103 2013-08-05 21:30:35 <Luke-Jr> I just did
1104 2013-08-05 21:30:35 <michagogo> It uses this makefile, fetching source from github: http://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/net-p2p/bitcoin/Makefile?view=markup
1105 2013-08-05 21:30:39 <michagogo> And?
1106 2013-08-05 21:30:42 <Luke-Jr> looks pretty simple
1107 2013-08-05 21:30:56 <michagogo> What do those patches in the files/ directory do?
1108 2013-08-05 21:31:10 <Luke-Jr> mostly just adjust things to compile/link
1109 2013-08-05 21:31:20 <Luke-Jr> whether it actually works, hard to tell <.<
1110 2013-08-05 21:31:37 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: More importantly, do any of the patches have security implications?
1111 2013-08-05 21:32:30 trolzies is now known as realzies
1112 2013-08-05 21:32:34 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: the patches, probably not.
1113 2013-08-05 21:32:48 <michagogo> Anything else it does?
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1126 2013-08-05 21:57:27 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: dunno what the BSD differences are
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1148 2013-08-05 22:21:28 <sipa> the title of this article is worrying: http://bitcoinexaminer.org/the-13-most-promising-cryptocurrencies/
1149 2013-08-05 22:22:05 <sipa> (not that i disagree much with it... the fact that there are so many that a subset of 13 can be called "most promising" already...)
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1151 2013-08-05 22:26:30 <jgarzik> heh
1152 2013-08-05 22:27:54 <jgarzik> sipa, Those "Top $number Most $Adjective $Nouns" posts are pure SEO bait
1153 2013-08-05 22:28:14 <jgarzik> probably took five minutes to write
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1155 2013-08-05 22:30:02 <edcba> you mean the article generator ? :)
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1157 2013-08-05 22:31:44 <nsh> sipa, something about imitation and flattery springs to mind
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1159 2013-08-05 22:33:55 <edcba> hmm primecoin
1160 2013-08-05 22:34:22 <amiller> i wanna see all the coins fight and form alliances and generally interact with each other like bacteria in a petrie dish
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1162 2013-08-05 22:37:48 <michagogo> lol
1163 2013-08-05 22:38:12 <edcba> ok primecoin paper is not made by a scientist i guess
1164 2013-08-05 22:38:28 <gmaxwell> killrcoin: POW is proof of attacking other coins.
1165 2013-08-05 22:39:03 <edcba> ddoscoin !
1166 2013-08-05 22:40:27 <amiller> we're so far behind in understanding exactly what it takes to make a good bitcoin puzzle :/
1167 2013-08-05 22:40:46 <amiller> one thing that's clear is that it's not actually "proof of work" according to the accepted definition for htat
1168 2013-08-05 22:41:03 <edcba> why ?
1169 2013-08-05 22:41:08 <amiller> the reason is that if you actually take a perfect proof-of-work function and plug it in, it sucks for bitcoin
1170 2013-08-05 22:41:29 <edcba> i don't see why
1171 2013-08-05 22:41:30 <amiller> the ideal proof-of-work takes *exactly* D steps to compute, no more no less
1172 2013-08-05 22:41:46 <amiller> with like, a sequential machine
1173 2013-08-05 22:42:03 <edcba> hashcash always had a difficulty parameter no ?
1174 2013-08-05 22:42:19 <amiller> yes but the point is there's a lot of variance in how long it actually tkes to win a block
1175 2013-08-05 22:42:21 <amiller> and that's good
1176 2013-08-05 22:42:38 <amiller> even a single hash has a fair chance of winning, which makes the effect of latency pretty low and makes it viable for small participants to have a chance
1177 2013-08-05 22:43:11 <amiller> if you had a perfect proof-of-work function, instead of hash cash, then only the fastest miner would always win and it wouldn't be a fair sampling the way it is now
1178 2013-08-05 22:43:27 <edcba> yeah 1/10e10 instead of 1/10e3
1179 2013-08-05 22:43:37 <edcba> they should be happy to be so lucky
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1181 2013-08-05 22:44:14 <edcba> i don't see where you saw that proof of work required exactly D steps
1182 2013-08-05 22:44:20 <edcba> never saw that definition
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1186 2013-08-05 22:46:21 <edcba> anyway the problem is more making it non parallelizable while in same time having more ppl = more secure
1187 2013-08-05 22:47:37 <sipa> amiller: how about metacoin?
1188 2013-08-05 22:47:47 <amiller> so that's the thing, most proof of work definitions aim for non-parallelizable while bitcoin benefits from as-parallelizable-as-possible
1189 2013-08-05 22:47:57 <sipa> (launching a succesful cryptocurrency counts as PoW)
1190 2013-08-05 22:48:34 <sipa> edcba: hashcash's difficulty was the number of high zero bits
1191 2013-08-05 22:49:40 <edcba> script should have been used to define pow
1192 2013-08-05 22:50:36 <edcba> now the problem is to calculate whether the pow fn is fair or not
1193 2013-08-05 22:50:41 <edcba> ie not precomputable
1194 2013-08-05 22:50:55 <gmaxwell> any kind of stiocastic search is stupidly parallel. You can only make it not by doing something that effectively imposes a global consensus problem on it. Yo dawg.
1195 2013-08-05 22:50:56 <edcba> and solvable :)
1196 2013-08-05 22:52:20 <nsh> gmaxwell++
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1244 2013-08-05 23:35:41 <Diablo-D3> um
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1246 2013-08-05 23:35:44 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: http://i.imgur.com/Q0soRHv.png
1247 2013-08-05 23:35:51 <Diablo-D3> somebodies been reading the best fanfic ever
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