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 107 2013-08-06 03:17:38 <warren> hmm, walletlock is supposed to lock immediately?  doesn't seem to be working here.
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 109 2013-08-06 03:18:40 <gmaxwell> warren: yes, AFAIR. Does it return right away?
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 112 2013-08-06 03:19:44 <gmaxwell> taking a quick look at the code I don't see how it could fail to work right away unless it gets hung waiting to take the lock on cs_nWalletUnlockTime or the wallet (in which case it wouldn't return right away).
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 114 2013-08-06 03:21:55 <warren> gmaxwell: it appears it can fail to work right away during a rescan
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 116 2013-08-06 03:22:39 <gmaxwell> warren: again, does it return? if it doesn't return then it's just waiting on the lock.
 117 2013-08-06 03:23:15 <warren> used it during rescan on the debug console, not sure if it returned
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 120 2013-08-06 03:31:01 <stevedekorte> it should be ok to use the same camera on both a css and a webgl renderer, right?
 121 2013-08-06 03:33:52 <lianj> stevedekorte: hehe what are you trying?
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 123 2013-08-06 03:34:19 <stevedekorte> rendering a css scene over top of an open gl scene
 124 2013-08-06 03:34:34 <stevedekorte> so I can use html labels on my 3d objects
 125 2013-08-06 03:35:45 <lianj> ah :)
 126 2013-08-06 03:36:04 <stevedekorte> it's sort of working
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 129 2013-08-06 03:36:19 <lianj> bitcoin related or just fun?
 130 2013-08-06 03:36:53 <stevedekorte> doh, sorry - I'm typing in the wrong window :)
 131 2013-08-06 03:36:59 <lianj> :D
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 227 2013-08-06 07:05:24 <bitexchanger> I have a quick question regarding the wallet that I would rather not post here.. anyone mind quickly messaging me? Its a super easy question
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 509 2013-08-06 15:31:39 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 511 2013-08-06 15:34:30 <MC1984> its the middle of the afternoon
 512 2013-08-06 15:35:35 <c0rw1n> it's 17:34 here
 513 2013-08-06 15:35:45 <sipa> ^ same
 514 2013-08-06 15:35:50 <michagogo> 18:35 for me
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 516 2013-08-06 15:37:21 <MC1984> im on the prime meridian so im pullin rank :p
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 519 2013-08-06 15:39:19 <jgarzik> Sadly, the BFL miners are not working.  PSU issues, I think.  Avalon is pretty much plug-and-play and they Just Work.  That's the benefit of including everything in the box (including OpenWRT-capable controller, PSU, ...)
 520 2013-08-06 15:39:52 <gwillen> jgarzik: :-\
 521 2013-08-06 15:39:59 <gwillen> jgarzik: what manner of BFL miners did you get?
 522 2013-08-06 15:40:05 <gwillen> and what symptoms are they displaying?
 523 2013-08-06 15:40:07 <jgarzik> 60 GH SC Singles
 524 2013-08-06 15:40:20 <jgarzik> Disappear from USB and don't reappear ;p
 525 2013-08-06 15:40:26 <gwillen> and _none_ are working?
 526 2013-08-06 15:40:30 <jgarzik> none
 527 2013-08-06 15:40:34 <Xeno-Genesis> what's Mike Hearn's nick?
 528 2013-08-06 15:40:36 <sipa> TD
 529 2013-08-06 15:41:11 <gwillen> jgarzik: hmmmm, yeah, if they do this when yo start mining that does sound like either power or heat
 530 2013-08-06 15:41:47 <gwillen> jgarzik: did yours come with PSUs? I got one without, and I'm running it off the beefy PSU I was previously using for GPU mining, without a problem
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 539 2013-08-06 15:49:38 <jgarzik> gwillen, both Singles came with PSUs.  Each PSU is branded ButterflyLabs, is switchable 110V/220V (set to 115V on switch), and has PCIe-style power output @ 13V/31A according to label
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 541 2013-08-06 15:50:19 <gwillen> jgarzik: are they failing immediately, or when you start sending them stuff to mine?
 542 2013-08-06 15:50:44 <gwillen> actually, regardless of the answer, I'd try them with a different PSU if you have one available
 543 2013-08-06 15:51:07 <gwillen> but I am expecting the latter
 544 2013-08-06 15:51:53 <gwillen> hmmm, 13V @ 31A should really be plenty; that exceeds 400W, and mine only draws 200W total when hashing
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 547 2013-08-06 15:54:27 <jgarzik> gwillen, single #1+PSU1 was mining when I went to bed, but not mining when I woke up.  single #2+PSU2 could never appeared on USB, never mined successfully.  single #1 was not mining when I woke up this morning.
 548 2013-08-06 15:54:47 <gwillen> Huh.
 549 2013-08-06 15:55:02 <jgarzik> My suspicion is crappy PSU
 550 2013-08-06 15:55:29 <gwillen> the only other thing I can think of is, I know they shipped models with two different heatsink configurations
 551 2013-08-06 15:55:37 <gwillen> mine is the one with heatpipes and fins
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 553 2013-08-06 15:55:44 <jgarzik> PSU #2 came with one of the two PCIe connectors installed upside down, requiring 180-degree twist in order to plug it into the miner.  PSU #1 did not have this problem, and both PCIe connectors were properly aligned.
 554 2013-08-06 15:55:50 <gwillen> ... huh.
 555 2013-08-06 15:56:27 <gwillen> I think I would take a voltmeter and check the polarity on that.
 556 2013-08-06 15:56:58 <gwillen> Just in case they actually wired it upside-down.
 557 2013-08-06 15:57:33 <gwillen> Although if that had been the case, and you plugged in one correct and one reversed connector, you should have noticed real quick.
 558 2013-08-06 15:58:32 <gwillen> jgarzik: For the one that stopped mining overnight, did your mining software report a final temperature before it fell off the bus? I would definitelyw worry about that, these things run really hot.
 559 2013-08-06 15:59:11 <gwillen> mine was reporting 75C with the case on, 65C now that I'm running it no-case
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 564 2013-08-06 16:02:31 <jgarzik> gwillen, sadly no.  the bfgminer screen disappeared, leaving only a lonely "All devices disabled, cannot mine!"
 565 2013-08-06 16:02:48 <gwillen> :-\
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 571 2013-08-06 16:08:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, doesn't bfgminer have a logging facility?
 572 2013-08-06 16:08:55 <nsh> jgarzik, are neither of your BFL ASICs working?
 573 2013-08-06 16:09:05 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, probably
 574 2013-08-06 16:09:09 <jgarzik> nsh, no
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 577 2013-08-06 16:09:30 <nsh> jgarzik, sorry to hear it
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 582 2013-08-06 16:14:01 <MC1984_> is it me or is gen 1 BFL asic hardware complete pieces of shit
 583 2013-08-06 16:14:08 <MC1984_> from everything im reading
 584 2013-08-06 16:14:54 <MC1984_> it seems like thier chips did not meet any spec or expectation they had at all, and its taken them this long to hack up boxes by hand that can fulfil thier order contracts
 585 2013-08-06 16:15:00 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 586 2013-08-06 16:15:05 <jgarzik> I don't think the BFL /miner/ is at fault here
 587 2013-08-06 16:15:22 <MC1984_> especially the thing where some have copper sinks and others aluminum. Sounds like a chip binning nightmare
 588 2013-08-06 16:15:25 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, as in the chip is fine but the packaging/control is bad?
 589 2013-08-06 16:15:37 <jgarzik> PSU is a totally separate piece of hardware in this case.  BFL miner accepts PCIe power connectors.  Power is fully external.
 590 2013-08-06 16:16:02 <MC1984_> how can they fuck up even the power supply. That shit is 100% commodity
 591 2013-08-06 16:16:45 <jgarzik> I think that's the problem :)  They bought cheap, poorly made Chinese PSUs from a random company that would stamp the BFL logo on the PSU
 592 2013-08-06 16:16:46 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, practice
 593 2013-08-06 16:17:14 <MC1984_> form over function
 594 2013-08-06 16:17:26 <MC1984_> at least theyre standard plugs eh
 595 2013-08-06 16:17:52 <jgarzik> Each PSU has two PCIe power connectors.  One PSU has 1 connector rightside up, the other connector upside down.  Had to rotate cable/connector 180 degrees just to plug in properly.  Other PSU did not have this problem.   <<--  sign of shoddy Chinese manufacturing process
 596 2013-08-06 16:18:36 <MC1984_> i think the chips missing every target by miles has put them right on the backfoot, and theyve been cutting corners like a marble sculptor to fulfil orders without going broke
 597 2013-08-06 16:18:37 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, everything inside the black BFL miner box is fine
 598 2013-08-06 16:18:54 <jgarzik> Let me snap a quick pic
 599 2013-08-06 16:19:03 <gwillen> jgarzik: I mean, I don't think you can be confident of that
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 602 2013-08-06 16:19:24 <gwillen> jgarzik: a friend and I took mine apart, I should post pitures
 603 2013-08-06 16:19:27 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, heh, tbh i dont really care
 604 2013-08-06 16:19:34 <gwillen> jgarzik: the build quality is ... not good
 605 2013-08-06 16:19:44 <phantomcircuit> mining is entirely uninteresting to me except as a lesson to people in market dynamics
 606 2013-08-06 16:19:46 <MC1984_> i dont think final assembly is happening in china?
 607 2013-08-06 16:20:01 <phantomcircuit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_market
 608 2013-08-06 16:20:02 <MC1984_> they actually bought reflow ovens and stuff
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 610 2013-08-06 16:20:24 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, that sounds like a bad idea
 611 2013-08-06 16:20:43 <MC1984_> yeah they bought a pick and place and a flow oven off ebay
 612 2013-08-06 16:21:04 <phantomcircuit> o.o
 613 2013-08-06 16:21:05 <phantomcircuit> wat
 614 2013-08-06 16:21:21 <MC1984_> im 95% sure i saw the thread and the pictures
 615 2013-08-06 16:21:44 <phantomcircuit> that's a pretty strange strategy
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 617 2013-08-06 16:22:01 <phantomcircuit> sounds like they were really financing opening their own facility using the funds
 618 2013-08-06 16:22:06 <phantomcircuit> shrug
 619 2013-08-06 16:22:07 <jgarzik> https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/364783173869113344
 620 2013-08-06 16:22:17 <phantomcircuit> very little surprises me at this point...
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 622 2013-08-06 16:22:24 <MC1984_> they should have just made chips
 623 2013-08-06 16:22:29 <MC1984_> all of them should, even avalon
 624 2013-08-06 16:22:46 <phantomcircuit> doesn't avalon sell their chips loose?
 625 2013-08-06 16:22:52 <MC1984_> they do now
 626 2013-08-06 16:23:01 <jgarzik> Picture caption:  The box on the left is the PSU.  It appears to be crap.  The box on the right is the BFL miner.  It appears to be working.
 627 2013-08-06 16:23:12 <MC1984_> they should have flooded the community in a tsunami of chips, and just see what comes online
 628 2013-08-06 16:23:40 <jgarzik> MC1984_, honestly, they followed a standard chip dev cycle
 629 2013-08-06 16:23:42 <jgarzik> just in public
 630 2013-08-06 16:23:57 <jgarzik> First, get out a limited run of dev platforms -- the chip + dev board
 631 2013-08-06 16:24:00 <MC1984_> i can see that PSU is shit just from the lustre of the plastic tbh
 632 2013-08-06 16:24:00 <jgarzik> Then, flood chips
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 634 2013-08-06 16:24:24 <jgarzik> It's just that, in this case, the chip+dev board costs money.  Usually it is free, to selected industry partners.
 635 2013-08-06 16:24:33 <jgarzik> (in the case of Intel/AMD/big guys)
 636 2013-08-06 16:24:42 Lolcust has joined
 637 2013-08-06 16:24:47 <jgarzik> Sometimes dev boards cost $$$ in niche markets, too
 638 2013-08-06 16:24:54 <MC1984_> they never sold these things as dev or reference units, they were always final production hardware
 639 2013-08-06 16:25:07 <jgarzik> Agree.  But that is essentially what they are, nonetheless.
 640 2013-08-06 16:25:29 <MC1984_> well thats not what people paid for
 641 2013-08-06 16:25:42 <MC1984_> people paid for the nice CG mockups
 642 2013-08-06 16:25:53 <MC1984_> wheres my damn coffeemug heater?
 643 2013-08-06 16:25:59 <jgarzik> Inevitable consequence of the bitcoin market.  Everybody would scream if dev boards that could actually mine were given away, and chip lifecycles were 1-2 years ;p
 644 2013-08-06 16:26:07 <jgarzik> chip dev lifecycles, I mean
 645 2013-08-06 16:26:27 <jgarzik> Plus, nobody has the funding to do a real dev setup anyway
 646 2013-08-06 16:26:36 <jgarzik> like Intel and the big boys do
 647 2013-08-06 16:27:35 <MC1984_> not to do finished products
 648 2013-08-06 16:28:19 <MC1984_> BFL had enough investment for chips and a reference design. They could have spent more making sure they didnt miss TDP by over 100%
 649 2013-08-06 16:28:28 <MC1984_> by investment i mean preorders ofc
 650 2013-08-06 16:28:31 <jgarzik> Do you think the bitcoin community would prefer a finished product later, or an unfinished product now now now?  ;-)
 651 2013-08-06 16:29:22 <MC1984_> I think selling bare chips would have gotten working finished miners into peoples hands sooner than BFL trying to do it all themselves
 652 2013-08-06 16:29:29 <MC1984_> division of labour mufo
 653 2013-08-06 16:29:44 <nsh> i think the options there are a bit generous jgarzik. you mean maybe laterlaterlater or just a-lot-later-than-you-expected
 654 2013-08-06 16:30:00 <nsh> ;)
 655 2013-08-06 16:30:12 <MC1984_> yeah
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 657 2013-08-06 16:30:33 <MC1984_> look how fast stick miners happend after chips started getting sold
 658 2013-08-06 16:30:48 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, im not sure they could have gotten working bare chips any faster
 659 2013-08-06 16:31:07 <phantomcircuit> especially since they wouldn't have been able to do preorders for 16k USD
 660 2013-08-06 16:31:35 <MC1984_> maybe they could have gotten real investment
 661 2013-08-06 16:31:45 <MC1984_> instead of the afaik legally dubious preorder thing
 662 2013-08-06 16:32:08 <MC1984_> it was like kickstarter without the hipsters
 663 2013-08-06 16:32:41 <MC1984_> for someone with no stake, im sho asspained at BFL
 664 2013-08-06 16:34:12 <MC1984_> mybe i want as much hardware as possible out there before someone gets the bright idea to class sha256x2 hardware as a money mint or clearing house, with the attendant ruinous regulation
 665 2013-08-06 16:34:46 <MC1984_> no one really knows whether fincen thinks miners need to talk to them still do they
 666 2013-08-06 16:35:24 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 667 2013-08-06 16:36:25 peetaur2 has joined
 668 2013-08-06 16:38:56 <jgarzik> I think "real investment" could occur now, but not 1-2 years ago
 669 2013-08-06 16:39:19 <jgarzik> pre-order was potentially scammy, dubious, etc.  but also seems like the only way
 670 2013-08-06 16:39:20 bmcgee has joined
 671 2013-08-06 16:39:38 <MC1984_> hey those foam inserts on that box are pretty nice though
 672 2013-08-06 16:39:40 <jgarzik> Nobody but the low level engineers were interesting in putting effort towards a bitcoin mining chip
 673 2013-08-06 16:40:04 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, the way they structured the pre-orders was almost certainly illegal
 674 2013-08-06 16:40:15 <phantomcircuit> but they're small enough scale that i doubt anything is going to happen
 675 2013-08-06 16:40:26 <phantomcircuit> especially if they deliver relatively soon
 676 2013-08-06 16:40:37 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, perhaps -- but I think this is a case of you can avoid legal trouble by ... delivering
 677 2013-08-06 16:40:52 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, or near-100% refund
 678 2013-08-06 16:41:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, right it's pretty much impossible to have any legal trouble if there's not damages beyond loss of income
 679 2013-08-06 16:42:11 <MC1984_> could loss of income be argued ue tot he nature of the product and the unreasonable delay
 680 2013-08-06 16:42:38 <MC1984_> i meant he ones still not delivered will never break even now right
 681 2013-08-06 16:42:41 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, sure, but good luck proving it
 682 2013-08-06 16:43:12 <jgarzik> Yeah -- the dynamic nature of the system makes proving that difficult
 683 2013-08-06 16:43:31 <jgarzik> Because the act of delivering, by any player, changing the profitability, which is always unknown moving forward.
 684 2013-08-06 16:43:37 <jgarzik> *changes
 685 2013-08-06 16:44:13 <MC1984_> lawyers can work with shit like compound interest right
 686 2013-08-06 16:45:16 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 687 2013-08-06 16:47:16 <gjs278> do you think KNC is the next place to hit up for preorders that will actually sell
 688 2013-08-06 16:47:25 altamic has joined
 689 2013-08-06 16:47:36 <gjs278> I don't know of any others that are taking preorders and have reasonable prices/ship dates
 690 2013-08-06 16:47:45 altamic has left ()
 691 2013-08-06 16:47:48 Application has joined
 692 2013-08-06 16:48:11 <jgarzik> Bitfury?
 693 2013-08-06 16:48:20 <jgarzik> ASICMINER?
 694 2013-08-06 16:48:35 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, it's way more complicated than that, since BFL could pretty reasonably argue that nobody is guaranteed profits, indeed if they were clever they could argue that bitcoin mining is a perfect market and thus profits are effectively guaranteed to stay close to zero
 695 2013-08-06 16:49:05 <gjs278> what is asicminer selling aside from shares/those sticks
 696 2013-08-06 16:49:14 <jgarzik> that's it
 697 2013-08-06 16:49:40 <jgarzik> ASICMINER's USB sticks are not profitable at $60 (my purchase price), but might be at $20 (group buy price, quantity 1000)
 698 2013-08-06 16:49:56 <jgarzik> I just bought a few as toys
 699 2013-08-06 16:49:59 ielo has joined
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 701 2013-08-06 16:50:23 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, on what sort of timescale?
 702 2013-08-06 16:50:46 <gjs278> can you chain together enough usb hubs and pci-e cards to do all 1000 at once
 703 2013-08-06 16:51:07 <jgarzik> months
 704 2013-08-06 16:51:11 <phantomcircuit> you'd end up with some nasty irq storm
 705 2013-08-06 16:51:23 <jgarzik> gjs278, heh, good quesiton, I wonder if USB supports that.  I suppose if you have multiple powered root hubs
 706 2013-08-06 16:51:34 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, nah MSI is spiffy these days
 707 2013-08-06 16:51:36 <nsh> i think there would be diminishing results...
 708 2013-08-06 16:51:41 <nsh> *returns
 709 2013-08-06 16:51:50 * nsh reads about MSI
 710 2013-08-06 16:51:52 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, usb is still pretty cpu intensive unless you're doing dma usb storage
 711 2013-08-06 16:51:57 <MC1984_> usb only chains 127 devices iirc
 712 2013-08-06 16:52:04 <gjs278> that's per controller
 713 2013-08-06 16:52:15 <nsh> "are an alternative in-band method of signalling an interrupt." something in my brain says this will not work well in certain scenarios
 714 2013-08-06 16:52:16 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 715 2013-08-06 16:52:27 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, miners should be doing low level USB, which is just DMA'ing packets to userland and back
 716 2013-08-06 16:52:28 <gjs278> you can easily have 5+ controllers on one motherboards with the 1x cards
 717 2013-08-06 16:52:39 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, avoids tty emulation and such
 718 2013-08-06 16:53:33 dan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 720 2013-08-06 16:54:22 <MC1984_> "might be getting 20nm technology, spared by TSMC, that will most likely be included in the next generation of Avalon miners. According to our anonymous source, “this will effectively put all other mining makers out of business, they are bringing a Porsche to a race where only Fords currently exist”.
 721 2013-08-06 16:54:26 <MC1984_> mixed feelings
 722 2013-08-06 16:55:36 <EPiSKiNG-> ;;genrate [calc 1000*333]
 723 2013-08-06 16:55:37 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 333000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 37392766.1365, is 4.47861678273 BTC per day and 0.186609032614 BTC per hour.
 724 2013-08-06 16:55:39 testnode9 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 725 2013-08-06 16:56:26 <EPiSKiNG-> ;;calc (.17*1000)/4.4
 726 2013-08-06 16:56:26 <gribble> 38.6363636364
 727 2013-08-06 16:56:36 <EPiSKiNG-> 40 day payoff ain't bad
 728 2013-08-06 16:56:49 <EPiSKiNG-> ;;bc,stats
 729 2013-08-06 16:56:52 <gribble> Current Blocks: 250562 | Current Difficulty: 3.7392766136474565E7 | Next Difficulty At Block: 251999 | Next Difficulty In: 1437 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 23 hours, 36 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
 730 2013-08-06 16:56:57 <MC1984_> how does a britbong go about buying a stick miner
 731 2013-08-06 16:58:24 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.4 -- http://www.instantbird.com)
 732 2013-08-06 16:58:46 <jgarzik> MC1984_, that $200m Avalon gossip was denied
 733 2013-08-06 16:59:20 <MC1984_> it seems like an awful lot of money
 734 2013-08-06 17:02:05 <jgarzik> MC1984_, it's an awful lot of hot air
 735 2013-08-06 17:02:48 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 736 2013-08-06 17:04:24 <MC1984_> itll happen for real one day
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 748 2013-08-06 17:21:37 <michagogo> [19:39:17] <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, the way they structured the pre-orders was almost certainly illegal
 749 2013-08-06 17:21:37 <michagogo> Is there something explaining what they did in depth? I know they sold preorders, and then waited for months and months to actually start sending them out, but don't know any of the details, and am interested.
 750 2013-08-06 17:21:48 anarchy5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 751 2013-08-06 17:22:30 <MC1984_> they sold preorders for shit that was not even close to existing yet, and indeed needed the closed loop of being paid for before they could exist
 752 2013-08-06 17:22:39 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 753 2013-08-06 17:22:40 <MC1984_> and it wasnt a commission type deal
 754 2013-08-06 17:22:51 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 755 2013-08-06 17:23:34 <michagogo> What about it is illegal?
 756 2013-08-06 17:23:47 yubrew_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 760 2013-08-06 17:27:36 <nsh> CRIMINAL ANONYMITY DETECTED
 761 2013-08-06 17:27:44 <nsh> clr_, TO REPORT TO RENEDUCATION CAMP
 762 2013-08-06 17:28:11 <nsh> (sorry, offtopic)
 763 2013-08-06 17:28:30 clr_ is now known as c00w
 764 2013-08-06 17:28:35 digitalmagus has joined
 765 2013-08-06 17:28:46 <c00w> nsh: You're just jealous
 766 2013-08-06 17:28:57 <nsh> somuch :)
 767 2013-08-06 17:29:12 handle is now known as gguruiut
 768 2013-08-06 17:29:29 <MC1984_> not anonymous i know who you are
 769 2013-08-06 17:30:55 <michagogo> MC1984_: What about it is illegal? (and, illegal in which jurisdiction(s)?
 770 2013-08-06 17:30:57 <michagogo> )
 771 2013-08-06 17:31:16 gguruiut is now known as handle
 772 2013-08-06 17:31:31 <MC1984_> i think there was an issue with refunds being required with delay
 773 2013-08-06 17:31:49 <MC1984_> and running a investment op as a pre order thing got to be shady
 774 2013-08-06 17:31:54 <nsh> i suspect there's a fair bit of wiggle-room on that front in many legal regimes
 775 2013-08-06 17:32:28 <nsh> to the extent that getting a solid answer will require funding a lot of lawyers' yacht-trips
 776 2013-08-06 17:32:51 <michagogo> "refunds being required with delay"?
 777 2013-08-06 17:32:54 <michagogo> What does that mean?
 778 2013-08-06 17:34:29 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 779 2013-08-06 17:35:19 CheckDavid has joined
 780 2013-08-06 17:37:29 <helo> hmm... more coins just transferred into the address that "stole" coins from blockchain.info and bitcoin wallet (1HKywxiL4JziqXrzLKhmB6a74ma6kxbSDj)
 781 2013-08-06 17:38:08 nomailing has joined
 782 2013-08-06 17:40:27 <Xeno-Genesis> indeed
 783 2013-08-06 17:40:31 <Xeno-Genesis> what's the deal with the change?
 784 2013-08-06 17:43:15 <nsh> helo, how much? do you think it's more proceeds of win
 785 2013-08-06 17:43:16 <nsh> *crime
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 797 2013-08-06 17:58:38 <k9quaint> <MC1984_> and running a investment op as a pre order thing got to be shady <-- correct
 798 2013-08-06 17:59:08 <k9quaint> that is why kickstarter designates people's contributions as donations, and not pre-orders or investments
 799 2013-08-06 17:59:12 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, in the us there are maximum timeframes for preorders
 800 2013-08-06 18:00:09 <k9quaint> phantomcircuit: it is possible to construct long pre-order timeframes legally (like large container ships for instance), but they involve contracts and lawyers
 801 2013-08-06 18:00:18 <k9quaint> and BFL did none of that of course ;)
 802 2013-08-06 18:00:22 <gmaxwell> Avalon was quite upfront with what they did in batch #1.
 803 2013-08-06 18:00:32 <k9quaint> indeed
 804 2013-08-06 18:00:49 <k9quaint> their track record declined a bit with batches #2 & #3
 805 2013-08-06 18:01:00 <phantomcircuit> k9quaint, the major difference is expectation of delivery
 806 2013-08-06 18:01:24 <k9quaint> phantomcircuit: yes, and the FTC rules on mail order / internet
 807 2013-08-06 18:01:26 <phantomcircuit> BFL didn't make it clear enough that they were actively developing
 808 2013-08-06 18:02:27 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
 809 2013-08-06 18:03:08 <k9quaint> hopefully there will be some healthy entrants into the bitcoin ASIC market soon
 810 2013-08-06 18:04:38 <MC1984> is it true people are still waiting for avalon batch 2s?
 811 2013-08-06 18:05:10 pecket has joined
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 815 2013-08-06 18:06:03 <k9quaint> MC1984: I think most people got theirs, the only ones that didn't either had payment issues or shipping issues
 816 2013-08-06 18:07:50 sserrano44 has joined
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 818 2013-08-06 18:09:27 <kjj> MC1984: I don't have my batch 2 orders yet
 819 2013-08-06 18:09:37 <Xeno-Genesis> how can a Bitcoin private key get attacked if the nonce is not random enough?
 820 2013-08-06 18:09:58 <Xeno-Genesis> ...after it has signed many transactions with a not-so-random nonce?
 821 2013-08-06 18:10:15 <kjj> Xeno-Genesis: in a signature you mean?  like if the signing system doesn't pick good random values?
 822 2013-08-06 18:10:19 <gmaxwell> Xeno-Genesis: if the nonce is known to an attacker a signal signature is enough to recover the key.
 823 2013-08-06 18:10:22 <Xeno-Genesis> yes
 824 2013-08-06 18:10:31 <gmaxwell> s/single/single/
 825 2013-08-06 18:10:46 * k9quaint was wondering what signal sigs were
 826 2013-08-06 18:10:51 <gmaxwell> Xeno-Genesis: go google up sony's ecdsa compromise for a description of the procedure.
 827 2013-08-06 18:10:53 <Xeno-Genesis> say the nonce is not known to the attacker, but that attacker knows that the source of randomness of the nonce gives say, 64 bits of randomness instead of 256 bits
 828 2013-08-06 18:11:19 <midnightmagic> r can be reused for different private keys though can't it?
 829 2013-08-06 18:11:29 <Xeno-Genesis> in the case of Sony's hack the procedure involves knowing the nonce, but say you don't know, you just not it's not random enough
 830 2013-08-06 18:11:50 <midnightmagic> well "reused" "accidentally collided in the weird universe where my electrons decide to visit the far corners of the universe and stay there"
 831 2013-08-06 18:11:57 <Xeno-Genesis> "you just know it's not random enough", I meant
 832 2013-08-06 18:12:13 wizkid057 has joined
 833 2013-08-06 18:12:49 <MC1984> midnightmagic there is only one electron
 834 2013-08-06 18:12:52 <gmaxwell> Xeno-Genesis: knowing two with the same unknown nonce, or a known nonce are easy recoveries that just require a bit of algebra. When there is only partial entropy that requires a more complicated attack.
 835 2013-08-06 18:12:55 <MC1984> it is in a universal superposition
 836 2013-08-06 18:12:56 <MC1984> truth
 837 2013-08-06 18:13:39 <midnightmagic> Xeno-Genesis: In Sony's case, they just *reused* the same value more than once which allowed the hackers to trivially calculate it.
 838 2013-08-06 18:13:56 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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 841 2013-08-06 18:15:31 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: yeah, but algebra is enough to protect you from most americans :P
 842 2013-08-06 18:15:48 <midnightmagic> s/americans/people/
 843 2013-08-06 18:18:35 <Xeno-Genesis> thanks guys
 844 2013-08-06 18:18:36 <Xeno-Genesis> cheers
 845 2013-08-06 18:18:48 <kjj> algebra isn't enough for BORE
 846 2013-08-06 18:18:56 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 847 2013-08-06 18:19:15 <k9quaint> sony's cost cutting measures! reuse tokens and nonces!
 848 2013-08-06 18:26:16 <MC1984> i wonder how they will lock down the next machine
 849 2013-08-06 18:26:20 <MC1984> its x86 based
 850 2013-08-06 18:28:09 reizuki__ has joined
 851 2013-08-06 18:28:27 <k9quaint> MC1984: probably with stickers
 852 2013-08-06 18:28:50 <MC1984> hue
 853 2013-08-06 18:29:08 <MC1984> warranty sticker?! Im foiled!
 854 2013-08-06 18:30:29 <k9quaint> they might use holograms!
 855 2013-08-06 18:31:01 <k9quaint> remind me to ask gavin why bitcoin doesn't have foil hologram stickers
 856 2013-08-06 18:32:21 <nsh> holographic stickers for some! tiny american flags for others!
 857 2013-08-06 18:32:56 <k9quaint> why can't they be tiny holographic american flag stickers?
 858 2013-08-06 18:33:56 <nsh> COMMUNIST!
 859 2013-08-06 18:34:16 <michagogo> k9quaint: They do
 860 2013-08-06 18:34:23 <nsh> holography contains intrinsic equality between the part and the whole, a thoroughly socialistic conception
 861 2013-08-06 18:34:34 <nsh> you have been reported to the House UnAmerican Affairs Committee
 862 2013-08-06 18:35:02 <handle> HUAFC
 863 2013-08-06 18:35:16 <michagogo> They have hologram stickers iff you get them from Mike Caldwell
 864 2013-08-06 18:39:11 brson has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
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 867 2013-08-06 18:44:43 <jgarzik> I have to say...  Even though I'm not a gambler, and have never actually used the site, people do seem to think Just-Dice is a pretty good site, a possible SD successor.
 868 2013-08-06 18:44:43 <k9quaint> nsh: street address has 5 numbers in it, that is easily enough math to protect me from members of the House of Representatives
 869 2013-08-06 18:44:55 <jgarzik> Opening "investment" to anybody was a cute trick.
 870 2013-08-06 18:45:08 <k9quaint> jgarzik: where are they hosted?
 871 2013-08-06 18:45:14 <jgarzik> k9quaint, good q
 872 2013-08-06 18:46:15 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 873 2013-08-06 18:46:35 <k9quaint> looks like they are on AWS
 874 2013-08-06 18:46:38 <nsh> welcome #bitcoin-plugyourinvestments
 875 2013-08-06 18:46:40 <nsh> ;-P
 876 2013-08-06 18:46:54 <k9quaint> somewhere in the EU
 877 2013-08-06 18:48:33 * jgarzik -> not an investor or user
 878 2013-08-06 18:49:05 <jgarzik> I just like to see good uses of bitcoin
 879 2013-08-06 18:49:53 <jgarzik> Maybe evoorhees got out at the right time, seeing Just-Dice on the horizon.  Anything that improves on SD's stuffing of wagers, en masse, into the blockchain is nice.
 880 2013-08-06 18:50:10 <jgarzik> anyway, rebooting, brb
 881 2013-08-06 18:50:15 jgarzik has quit (Quit: boot boot boot)
 882 2013-08-06 18:50:47 <MC1984> Sdice has fallen way down right?
 883 2013-08-06 18:50:56 <MC1984> is that reflected in the blockchain
 884 2013-08-06 18:52:18 <MC1984> whos got the chart
 885 2013-08-06 18:53:21 jgarzik has joined
 886 2013-08-06 18:53:57 <weex> out of curiosity, when was the mining code removed from bitcoind?
 887 2013-08-06 18:54:17 <gmaxwell> weex: never.
 888 2013-08-06 18:54:25 <helo> weex: ./bitcoind -gen=1
 889 2013-08-06 18:54:26 <weex> sweet!
 890 2013-08-06 18:54:34 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 891 2013-08-06 18:55:38 <k9quaint> weex: point it at BTCGuild, they love CPU miners
 892 2013-08-06 18:55:57 <weex> i'm already there :P
 893 2013-08-06 18:56:03 <jgarzik> heh
 894 2013-08-06 18:56:18 <gmaxwell> uh. just a heads up. my browsing VM had an instant kernel panic the moment I typed my email address into btc-e. In several years of using this I've _never_ had it panic on me.
 895 2013-08-06 18:56:48 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, what was the kernel panic?
 896 2013-08-06 18:56:59 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: so I should stop trying to break into your browsing VM?
 897 2013-08-06 18:58:02 <nsh> gmaxwell, replicable?
 898 2013-08-06 18:58:10 <nsh> is the RAM lost?
 899 2013-08-06 18:58:30 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: what OS flavor/version is on your browsing VM?
 900 2013-08-06 18:58:38 <nsh> someone else reported a kernel panic the other day...
 901 2013-08-06 18:58:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: bad RIP value, and the RIP was a very high value, close to all 0xfff...
 902 2013-08-06 18:59:13 <gmaxwell> nsh: seems not.
 903 2013-08-06 18:59:15 m00p has joined
 904 2013-08-06 18:59:28 <gmaxwell> nsh: doesn't seem to reproduce.
 905 2013-08-06 18:59:33 * nsh nods
 906 2013-08-06 19:00:02 <nsh> VM host software should be able to do a mem and register dump on kernel panics
 907 2013-08-06 19:00:03 <nsh> that would be handy
 908 2013-08-06 19:00:04 <k9quaint> someone is modding yo sys calls
 909 2013-08-06 19:00:50 <phantomcircuit> nsh, iirc qemu can be configured to do that
 910 2013-08-06 19:00:54 <gmaxwell> in any case, if it wasn't a fluke, considering when it triggered it was targeted.
 911 2013-08-06 19:00:59 JZavala has joined
 912 2013-08-06 19:01:03 <phantomcircuit> im not sure how reliable it's panic detection is though
 913 2013-08-06 19:01:07 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
 914 2013-08-06 19:02:01 * nsh nods
 915 2013-08-06 19:02:05 <k9quaint> I always soak myself in bleach after using BTC-E anyway
 916 2013-08-06 19:02:12 <phantomcircuit> lol
 917 2013-08-06 19:02:21 <phantomcircuit> their bitcoin withdrawal security is actually really well thought out
 918 2013-08-06 19:02:58 <k9quaint> I don't have a specific complaint with the site, it's just the "sneaky fucking russian" complex I have
 919 2013-08-06 19:03:28 <k9quaint> that whole country knows too much math, nothing good can come of it
 920 2013-08-06 19:03:46 <phantomcircuit> shrug
 921 2013-08-06 19:03:56 handle is now known as btclicenseplate
 922 2013-08-06 19:04:12 btclicenseplate is now known as handle
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 926 2013-08-06 19:05:44 <michagogo> phantomcircuit: What security do they have?
 927 2013-08-06 19:06:05 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, all transfers require email confirmation
 928 2013-08-06 19:06:17 <phantomcircuit> and so does disabling it
 929 2013-08-06 19:06:17 <phantomcircuit> heh
 930 2013-08-06 19:06:23 <michagogo> Interesting
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 933 2013-08-06 19:08:06 <gmaxwell> okay, seems like a false alarm. I was applying updates in the host when it happened, just super conicidental timing.
 934 2013-08-06 19:08:13 Application has joined
 935 2013-08-06 19:08:43 <gmaxwell> I totally freaked for a moment while going through the host /var/log/messages and seeing it restarting a pile of daemons at the same timestamp when the crash happened.
 936 2013-08-06 19:09:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: How do we know the attacker hasn't already hijacked your IRC account and is impersonating you?
 937 2013-08-06 19:09:20 <k9quaint> petertodd: you don't, but I am gmaxwell
 938 2013-08-06 19:09:23 <k9quaint> DAMNIT
 939 2013-08-06 19:09:31 * k9quaint switches windows
 940 2013-08-06 19:09:33 <gmaxwell> you don't, but even if he has, not sure what good it would do him. :P
 941 2013-08-06 19:10:15 <nsh> better a freakout unrequired and a freakout missed :)
 942 2013-08-06 19:10:17 <nsh> *than
 943 2013-08-06 19:10:30 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 944 2013-08-06 19:10:51 <petertodd> better pen and paper and a cave far away from any electronics, just in case
 945 2013-08-06 19:10:52 <nsh> *too many, too few -- sounds better, pretend i phrased it like that
 946 2013-08-06 19:10:59 <petertodd> mind... maybe the pen is bugged?
 947 2013-08-06 19:11:03 * petertodd grabs a stick
 948 2013-08-06 19:11:04 Applica__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 949 2013-08-06 19:11:14 <nsh> caves are a great place to conceal cameras
 950 2013-08-06 19:11:41 <nsh> you can probably genetically engineer sticks to snoop these days
 951 2013-08-06 19:11:44 <petertodd> nsh: funny you say that... I once found a light sensor in a cave, marked "Property of <some us agency>"
 952 2013-08-06 19:11:52 <nsh> o_O
 953 2013-08-06 19:12:05 <nsh> did you keep it
 954 2013-08-06 19:12:07 <nsh> ?
 955 2013-08-06 19:12:07 <nsh> :)
 956 2013-08-06 19:12:17 <petertodd> nsh: lot, heck no, my name was on the entry permit :)
 957 2013-08-06 19:12:25 <nsh> probably some underground installation
 958 2013-08-06 19:12:34 ThomasV has joined
 959 2013-08-06 19:12:59 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
 960 2013-08-06 19:13:01 <petertodd> nsh: Heh, nah, just them checking to see if people were getting permits as required... I think.
 961 2013-08-06 19:13:03 chorao has joined
 962 2013-08-06 19:13:25 * nsh nods
 963 2013-08-06 19:13:28 <nsh> stupid boring reality
 964 2013-08-06 19:13:28 <petertodd> Though they'll be *so* confused when I release my genetically engineered glow-in-the-dark bats...
 965 2013-08-06 19:13:41 <nsh> ehehe
 966 2013-08-06 19:15:17 Bohren has joined
 967 2013-08-06 19:16:10 <michagogo> ;;ident gmaxwell
 968 2013-08-06 19:16:10 <gribble> Nick 'gmaxwell', with hostmask 'gmaxwell!greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001', is not identified.
 969 2013-08-06 19:16:39 <petertodd>  ;;ident michagogo
 970 2013-08-06 19:16:54 <gmaxwell> michagogo: you're really the attacker, and you're just trying to get me to type in my gpg password now, aren't you?
 971 2013-08-06 19:16:54 <petertodd> gribble returns nothing! imposter!
 972 2013-08-06 19:17:01 <michagogo> lol
 973 2013-08-06 19:17:08 <michagogo> petertodd: You added a space before the command
 974 2013-08-06 19:17:12 <michagogo> Also, give me a second
 975 2013-08-06 19:17:19 <michagogo> I'll get my node up and ident
 976 2013-08-06 19:17:22 <petertodd> michagogo: heh
 977 2013-08-06 19:17:23 <michagogo> ;;bcauth michagogo
 978 2013-08-06 19:17:23 <gribble> Request successful for user michagogo, hostmask michagogo!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:a7cf990cc0c610cae9eb3d5c0c796bbcb16037f64ce3e101e28e9678
 979 2013-08-06 19:17:56 <michagogo> well
 980 2013-08-06 19:18:02 <michagogo> s/a second/a couple minutes/
 981 2013-08-06 19:18:11 <petertodd> lol, I'm going to lose this game, given I use a PGP smartcard and don't have a reader handy...
 982 2013-08-06 19:18:44 <kjj> meh.  I refuse to stay in -otc one second more than absolutely necessary
 983 2013-08-06 19:18:57 <michagogo> kjj: I don't think I've been in -otc
 984 2013-08-06 19:19:26 <k9quaint> I just say random things, so if the entropy in my IRC dialogue ever falls below a certain threshold, you know it is an impostor
 985 2013-08-06 19:20:06 <kjj> unless things changed recently, gribble is only willing to authenticate you while you are actually present in certain channels
 986 2013-08-06 19:20:40 <michagogo> kjj: this is one of them
 987 2013-08-06 19:22:15 <michagogo> gribble, bcverify HMVN0FW8DFi9trmuHMG/Vpk5HQ/YxfyiNLJstgfQK8oNR5/PwyEzx3tB3DBateyXudShjBtz8d9NioA120xGX0E=
 988 2013-08-06 19:22:21 <michagogo> Interesting
 989 2013-08-06 19:22:25 <michagogo> Some bots let you do tha
 990 2013-08-06 19:22:26 <michagogo> t
 991 2013-08-06 19:22:29 <michagogo> ;;bcverify HMVN0FW8DFi9trmuHMG/Vpk5HQ/YxfyiNLJstgfQK8oNR5/PwyEzx3tB3DBateyXudShjBtz8d9NioA120xGX0E=
 992 2013-08-06 19:22:31 <gribble> You are now authenticated for user 'michagogo' with address 18xRDaxdJudfk5U943GNTsWfvg1soouPbc
 993 2013-08-06 19:22:44 <kjj> when did they add this channel to the list?
 994 2013-08-06 19:22:55 <michagogo> No idea
 995 2013-08-06 19:27:17 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 996 2013-08-06 19:29:18 bbrian has joined
 997 2013-08-06 19:29:22 bbrian has quit (Client Quit)
 998 2013-08-06 19:36:40 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 999 2013-08-06 19:37:42 Coincide_ has joined
1000 2013-08-06 19:38:39 Zoo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1001 2013-08-06 19:40:07 testnode9 has joined
1002 2013-08-06 19:40:22 <michagogo> Thanks, whoever you are :-D
1003 2013-08-06 19:45:36 cads has joined
1004 2013-08-06 19:47:14 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1005 2013-08-06 19:48:14 <michagogo> What is this mpex.co site?
1006 2013-08-06 19:48:59 Thepok has joined
1007 2013-08-06 19:55:11 <petertodd> michagogo: stock exchange
1008 2013-08-06 19:55:20 <petertodd> run by mircea_popescu>
1009 2013-08-06 19:55:30 <michagogo> Interesting.
1010 2013-08-06 19:55:50 <petertodd> michagogo: Why do you ask?
1011 2013-08-06 19:56:23 <michagogo> (I ask because that 0.001 BTC someone just sent to me has that as the tag on an address a few transactions back, and the faq page it links to just says it's a dog)
1012 2013-08-06 19:56:48 <petertodd> Huh, interesting bit of taint analysis, though a few hops back doesn't mean much.
1013 2013-08-06 19:57:56 <michagogo> I know
1014 2013-08-06 19:58:44 RoboTeddy has joined
1015 2013-08-06 19:58:45 <petertodd> Me too, given I sent you the 1mBTC :P
1016 2013-08-06 19:59:34 <michagogo> :D
1017 2013-08-06 19:59:53 <michagogo> I don't know if there's a pisg running on this channel, but...
1018 2013-08-06 19:59:56 <michagogo> petertodd++
1019 2013-08-06 20:00:43 <petertodd> lol
1020 2013-08-06 20:00:57 <petertodd> I figured I'd timestamp your OTC identity for you :P
1021 2013-08-06 20:01:16 <michagogo> Hmm?
1022 2013-08-06 20:02:02 <petertodd> well, you didn't have any tx's to that addr, which you authed with, so by sending you that 1mBTC I've effectively timestamped your identity
1023 2013-08-06 20:02:11 paybitcoin1 has joined
1024 2013-08-06 20:02:16 <michagogo> How so?
1025 2013-08-06 20:03:18 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1026 2013-08-06 20:03:49 <petertodd> Simple: now I know that your identity, as determined by gribble, existed prior to that tx.
1027 2013-08-06 20:04:41 <michagogo> petertodd: Does gribble not track when the registration was done?
1028 2013-08-06 20:04:59 valparaiso_ has joined
1029 2013-08-06 20:05:10 <petertodd> michagogo: Maybe? But that's trusting gribble.
1030 2013-08-06 20:05:37 <michagogo> Erm
1031 2013-08-06 20:05:46 <michagogo> [23:03:01] <petertodd> Simple: now I know that your identity, as determined by gribble, existed prior to that tx.
1032 2013-08-06 20:05:46 <michagogo> That's also trusting gribble, is it not?
1033 2013-08-06 20:06:29 agnostic98 has joined
1034 2013-08-06 20:06:31 <petertodd> Sure, but if everyone's identities were timestamped like that, gribble would have a harder time lying about certain facts. Of course, note how I *didn't* timestamp your name, which is a big flaw in my plan. :)
1035 2013-08-06 20:07:11 <MC1984> why dont we have a merged notary chain yet
1036 2013-08-06 20:07:36 brson has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1037 2013-08-06 20:07:37 <michagogo> petertodd: So all you did was timestamp the fact that this address existed
1038 2013-08-06 20:07:43 <MC1984> a chain to timestamp hashes of data would be stupid useful
1039 2013-08-06 20:08:15 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1040 2013-08-06 20:08:15 valparaiso_ is now known as valparaiso
1041 2013-08-06 20:08:15 brson has joined
1042 2013-08-06 20:09:13 <petertodd> michagogo: Indeed!
1043 2013-08-06 20:10:12 <petertodd> MC1984: What's useful isn't the chain, it's having a chain where new timestamp "blocks" are created fast enough, 1/second, that timestamping is convenient.
1044 2013-08-06 20:10:37 <nsh> good luck forming consensus on anything with that latency
1045 2013-08-06 20:11:03 <petertodd> nsh: Why? Timestamps are tiny and can be processed fast.
1046 2013-08-06 20:11:47 <petertodd> nsh: They also aren't affected by double-spends, so the consensus problem isn't anywhere near as hard anyway - the purpose of a chain is for anti-DoS really.
1047 2013-08-06 20:11:48 <nsh> i defer to better knowledge. but network speeds are not that good globally
1048 2013-08-06 20:12:03 * nsh nods
1049 2013-08-06 20:12:09 anarchy5 has joined
1050 2013-08-06 20:12:42 <michagogo> petertodd: Is accurate-to-the-second timestamping actually necessary for that?
1051 2013-08-06 20:12:53 <MC1984> 1 second blocks would be retarded
1052 2013-08-06 20:13:00 <michagogo> ^
1053 2013-08-06 20:13:01 <nsh> you get clock-drift problems with that resolution too perhaps
1054 2013-08-06 20:13:14 <nsh> there is no way the world can agree on "now" to one second
1055 2013-08-06 20:13:18 <nsh> i don't think it's _physically_ possible
1056 2013-08-06 20:13:24 <nsh> let alone technologically
1057 2013-08-06 20:13:25 <petertodd> michagogo: Who said anything about accuracy? It's actually about user experience - you want the user to be able to get their timestamp *completed* with high reliability fast, knowing that the data will be there in the future to verify.
1058 2013-08-06 20:13:30 <MC1984> maybe 10 minutes is too wide resolution for timestamping, but maybe not
1059 2013-08-06 20:13:32 <nsh> ah, right
1060 2013-08-06 20:13:43 <michagogo> petertodd: IMHO even a minute would be fine there
1061 2013-08-06 20:14:00 <michagogo> Also, what would be the reward mechanism?
1062 2013-08-06 20:14:07 <petertodd> michagogo: Compare that to my OpenTimestamps work, where you had to go back and "complete" your timestamp some time later when the tx got mined, which sucks horribly.
1063 2013-08-06 20:15:03 <michagogo> ;;google peter todd opentimestamps
1064 2013-08-06 20:15:04 <gribble> opentimestamps-server/otsserver/bitcoin.py at master ... - GitHub: <https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server/blob/master/otsserver/bitcoin.py>; petertodd (Peter Todd) · GitHub: <https://github.com/petertodd>; SourceForge.net: Bitcoin: bitcoin-development: (1 more message)
1065 2013-08-06 20:15:13 <michagogo> ;;more
1066 2013-08-06 20:15:13 <gribble> <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CANEZrP18E6kQW_dS7_Vq5YHm7AaiVt_hEsexK4NN-%3Df_z8u_OA%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development>
1067 2013-08-06 20:15:29 <petertodd> michagogo: Why does there need to be a reward at all? Or really, what makes you think there is going to be a lot of hashing power thrown at the 1 second blocks?
1068 2013-08-06 20:15:37 <MC1984> who the fuck needs to timestamp a doc NOW
1069 2013-08-06 20:16:08 <petertodd> MC1984: Who wants to have to go back and do some weird "completion" thing because the timestamp didn't just work the first try with one command?
1070 2013-08-06 20:16:09 <michagogo> petertodd: Well, you *need* high hashrate
1071 2013-08-06 20:16:20 <michagogo> Otherwise, >51% attacks are easy
1072 2013-08-06 20:16:34 <MC1984> what?
1073 2013-08-06 20:16:49 <michagogo> And for decentralization and high hashrate, you need an incentive to hash
1074 2013-08-06 20:16:52 <petertodd> michagogo: Why? Just tie it into the Bitcoin blockchain whenever someone timestamps the timestamp chain in Bitcoin.
1075 2013-08-06 20:16:59 <michagogo> What?
1076 2013-08-06 20:17:12 <michagogo> What do you mean?
1077 2013-08-06 20:17:31 <petertodd> So the current bestblockhash on litecoin is 78501c71d848da9fe08d275846b58b545752371f9a6e3c730d7ae9b7405dc96f
1078 2013-08-06 20:18:01 denom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1079 2013-08-06 20:18:05 <petertodd> So if I create a Bitcoin tx including that hash, I've timestamped litecoin with Bitcoin.
1080 2013-08-06 20:18:35 <michagogo> Ah, I see.
1081 2013-08-06 20:18:42 <MC1984> the odea is to keep shit out of bitcoin
1082 2013-08-06 20:18:57 <michagogo> So if you have, say, 30 second block times on that timestamp thing
1083 2013-08-06 20:19:12 <MC1984> youd think miners would merge a notarycoin chain to that effect, seeing as it costs them nothing
1084 2013-08-06 20:19:32 <petertodd> See the 1 second block target is only because we have to set some kind of threshold so people do spam the timestamp database - you can't just say everyone can timestamp for free.
1085 2013-08-06 20:19:34 <michagogo> Miners who are participating can include the hash in blocks they  mine as a "checkpoint"
1086 2013-08-06 20:19:38 denom has joined
1087 2013-08-06 20:19:51 anarchy5 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1088 2013-08-06 20:19:56 <petertodd> However, if 100 people want to timestamp right now, they can co-operate to create a merkle tree, and then timestamp the tip of that merkle tree now.
1089 2013-08-06 20:20:19 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1090 2013-08-06 20:20:23 * michagogo doesn't really understand what all the merkle stuff is
1091 2013-08-06 20:20:29 <petertodd> Actually making a protocol by which that co-operation would work is a bit tricky if you assume DoS attacks, but it won't be a big deal for awhile.
1092 2013-08-06 20:20:34 <handle> a merkle tree is just a tree of hashes
1093 2013-08-06 20:20:35 <petertodd> michagogo: oh dear...
1094 2013-08-06 20:20:43 <handle> kinda like hash(hash(a)+hash(b))
1095 2013-08-06 20:20:54 <handle> but a lot more than 2 levels
1096 2013-08-06 20:21:28 <MC1984> dial the nerd back there bro
1097 2013-08-06 20:21:37 <MC1984> i just need to timestamp my idea for a folding toilet seat ok
1098 2013-08-06 20:21:43 <handle> what
1099 2013-08-06 20:21:49 Zoo has joined
1100 2013-08-06 20:22:16 <MC1984> so give me a box for a file hash and a coin to spend and a button to press
1101 2013-08-06 20:23:06 <MC1984> just saying, something simple like a dedicated timestamper chain that people know about
1102 2013-08-06 20:25:03 <petertodd> MC1984: Well, that's the thing, with a timestamping chain you won't even have to spend a coin...
1103 2013-08-06 20:25:26 <petertodd> MC1984: You may have to mine, but only if someone is actually attacking the chain right now.
1104 2013-08-06 20:25:26 <michagogo> MC1984: Well, right now there's https://www.btproof.com/
1105 2013-08-06 20:25:59 <petertodd> and http://vog.github.io/bitcoinproof/
1106 2013-08-06 20:26:09 <michagogo> You give it text, upload a file, or hash it yourself and give it the hash, and it generates an address for you
1107 2013-08-06 20:26:40 <michagogo> Send something to that address, and it's timestamped
1108 2013-08-06 20:26:56 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1109 2013-08-06 20:27:10 <petertodd> michagogo: ...forever bloating the UTXO set.
1110 2013-08-06 20:27:11 <michagogo> (or pay them $3 over paypal if you have no bitcoins)
1111 2013-08-06 20:27:21 <michagogo> petertodd: I didn't say it's a good thing to use.
1112 2013-08-06 20:27:24 <michagogo> Just that it exists.
1113 2013-08-06 20:27:47 <MC1984> but shitting up bitcoin with timstamp dust is bad
1114 2013-08-06 20:28:04 <michagogo> Correct.
1115 2013-08-06 20:28:04 <MC1984> so for the third time, why not use merge mining for something useful
1116 2013-08-06 20:28:11 <petertodd> Yeah, the better way to do it is with OP_RETURN, as I just did with that Litecoin hash: a221e16c7dc08ac30c5526ed3986d71a0b94743cdade6866bb7af6e3ccdf8a28
1117 2013-08-06 20:28:39 <petertodd> MC1984: Well... I'm actually not so sure merge mining it is really a great idea - opens up the timestamp chain to attack by miners at no cost.
1118 2013-08-06 20:28:51 <MC1984> wait does that site expect you to upload the sort of documents one might want to timestamp in a very secure manner
1119 2013-08-06 20:29:05 <petertodd> MC1984: I think you are safer if at the 1 second block level you actually do have to sacrifice real hashing power.
1120 2013-08-06 20:29:12 <michagogo> MC1984: No, you can hash it yourself and give them the hash
1121 2013-08-06 20:29:16 saivann has joined
1122 2013-08-06 20:29:23 <michagogo> petertodd: Well, OP_RETURN does mean that you need to have a way of creating said transaction
1123 2013-08-06 20:29:23 <petertodd> MC1984: client-side javascript, and what michagogo said
1124 2013-08-06 20:29:53 <MC1984> oh, you could do it offline then
1125 2013-08-06 20:29:54 <petertodd> michagogo: Yeah, no nice tools exist for that yet... and op_return isn't yet standard. (though eligius will mine it)
1126 2013-08-06 20:30:16 <michagogo> petertodd: (and also, if you're being purely selfish, in the far future, having it as a UTXO might make it easier to verify)
1127 2013-08-06 20:30:40 <petertodd> michagogo: Indeed, which is scary...
1128 2013-08-06 20:31:12 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1129 2013-08-06 20:31:27 <michagogo> petertodd: Is there a way to get that transaction *to* eligius though?
1130 2013-08-06 20:31:31 toffoo has joined
1131 2013-08-06 20:31:51 <michagogo> (since most nodes won't relay it)
1132 2013-08-06 20:31:53 <petertodd> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy
1133 2013-08-06 20:32:08 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1134 2013-08-06 20:32:27 <michagogo> Ah
1135 2013-08-06 20:32:31 <petertodd> Also if you have non-std tx's enabled locally, and mine on p2pool, it'll wind up in one of your shares, then get to one of my nodes which in turn will send it to eligius.
1136 2013-08-06 20:33:38 <michagogo> Does adding said node guarantee you'll try to connect to it?
1137 2013-08-06 20:33:47 <petertodd> michagogo: Yes
1138 2013-08-06 20:34:04 <michagogo> Hmm, in the past I've seen that appear to not be the case in a few tests
1139 2013-08-06 20:34:25 <michagogo> Though that was with a few dozen -addnode lines, so that might be part of it.
1140 2013-08-06 20:34:38 rdponticelli_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1141 2013-08-06 20:34:42 <petertodd> Run with -debug and check your logs - it'll always try at least once.
1142 2013-08-06 20:35:08 <michagogo> petertodd: Is there a limit to how many it tries?
1143 2013-08-06 20:35:32 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1144 2013-08-06 20:35:49 <petertodd> michagogo: Just standard back-off rules, which are pretty conservative.
1145 2013-08-06 20:36:07 <petertodd> michagogo: That node is often overloaded FWIW
1146 2013-08-06 20:38:30 viperhr has joined
1147 2013-08-06 20:41:24 agricocb has joined
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1149 2013-08-06 20:42:58 kadoban has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1160 2013-08-06 20:55:17 <shesek> petertodd, michagogo, I've been planning to change that to use a 1-of-2 multisig address and send it back
1161 2013-08-06 20:55:23 <shesek> to prevent bloating the UTXO
1162 2013-08-06 20:55:41 c0rw1n has joined
1163 2013-08-06 20:55:46 <shesek> but got busy with another project and didn't find tiem for it :O
1164 2013-08-06 20:56:03 <shesek> I am aware that the current way it works isn't optimal
1165 2013-08-06 20:56:11 <shesek> (/me is btproof.com owner)
1166 2013-08-06 20:56:56 Applicat_ has joined
1167 2013-08-06 20:57:00 <shesek> MC1984, files are read and hashes client-side, they're never uploaded to the server
1168 2013-08-06 20:57:04 c0rw1n has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1169 2013-08-06 20:57:07 AusBitBank_ has joined
1170 2013-08-06 20:57:13 owowo has joined
1171 2013-08-06 20:57:25 <MC1984> the button does say upload, just sayin
1172 2013-08-06 20:57:45 <shesek> There's also a note there: "The data (both from text and from a file) is hashed locally in your browser, and is never uploaded to the server. Still, if you're timestamping sensitive information, you're advised to hash it locally (howto: Linux, Windows, Mac) and only input the hash using the "Already have an hash?" tab."
1173 2013-08-06 20:57:48 c0rw1n has joined
1174 2013-08-06 20:58:02 Applica__ has joined
1175 2013-08-06 20:58:18 <michagogo> shesek: Which hash format are you supposed to use?
1176 2013-08-06 20:58:27 <michagogo> (or is it really just, "encode this hex string"?)
1177 2013-08-06 20:58:38 <shesek> michagogo, it gets RIPEMD160
1178 2013-08-06 20:58:44 <gmaxwell> shesek: to not bloat the blockchain or utxo you should be using coinbase timestamping; to not bloat the utxo set you should be using an OP_RETURN output.
1179 2013-08-06 20:58:45 <shesek> so you can pretty much put whatever hex string you want
1180 2013-08-06 20:58:50 c0rw1n has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1181 2013-08-06 20:59:03 viperhr has joined
1182 2013-08-06 20:59:23 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Well, the idea here is that it's a way you can easily do it without trusting them and without their involvement
1183 2013-08-06 20:59:34 <shesek> gmaxwell, OP_RETURN isn't very convenient to use for users
1184 2013-08-06 20:59:40 <michagogo> gmaxwell: And, making it easy -- just "send something to this address"
1185 2013-08-06 20:59:42 <shesek> I would have to prepare and send the transactions myself
1186 2013-08-06 21:00:02 <shesek> as michagogo says, its much easier to just give the user a link with a Bitcoin address to pay to
1187 2013-08-06 21:00:22 <shesek> than expecting them to figure out how to manually craft and broadcast a transaction
1188 2013-08-06 21:00:23 <michagogo> Either that, or require users to give you an unspent output, create a raw transaction, and have them signrawtransaction and sendrawtransaction
1189 2013-08-06 21:00:39 <gmaxwell> Okay, so because you're not interested in improving the software, you're happy to create increased perpetual cost for all current and future users of bitcoin.
1190 2013-08-06 21:00:43 <gmaxwell> I get that right?
1191 2013-08-06 21:01:17 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Well, there's no real way to do it without bloat at the moment, while keeping it all client-side and easy to use
1192 2013-08-06 21:01:23 <MC1984> hey, atleast dice fell from grace
1193 2013-08-06 21:01:27 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1194 2013-08-06 21:01:39 <michagogo> shesek: You could, though, use OP_RETURN for your $3 thing
1195 2013-08-06 21:02:03 <MC1984> i dont think the new *dice sites use the blockchain as thier backend like SD does
1196 2013-08-06 21:02:23 <michagogo> (do you?)
1197 2013-08-06 21:02:27 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1198 2013-08-06 21:02:45 <gmaxwell> michagogo: if you actually stipulate all client side and no software there is currently no way to do it at all. Something has to run to hash the data to be timestamped.
1199 2013-08-06 21:02:52 <shesek> michagogo, I only got a handful of orders when I launched this, and nothing in quite some time now
1200 2013-08-06 21:03:07 <shesek> michagogo, because of the way it works right now, I'm not really publishing this too much
1201 2013-08-06 21:03:20 <michagogo> What's the way it works right now?
1202 2013-08-06 21:03:52 * nsh can't see why a document can't be hashed through a browser 
1203 2013-08-06 21:03:57 <gmaxwell> michagogo: lemme guess: uses JS to hash the document, and tells the person to pay to a blackhole address the results.
1204 2013-08-06 21:04:11 <gmaxwell> s/the/that/
1205 2013-08-06 21:04:18 <michagogo> gmaxwell: https://www.btproof.com/timestamp.js
1206 2013-08-06 21:04:22 <shesek> right
1207 2013-08-06 21:04:27 <michagogo> gmaxwell: And yes, exactly
1208 2013-08-06 21:04:43 <shesek> https://github.com/shesek/btproof/blob/master/script/timestamp.coffee
1209 2013-08-06 21:05:00 <nsh> dat js...
1210 2013-08-06 21:05:51 <shesek> gmaxwell, as I said before, I am well aware that the current way it works isn't optimal
1211 2013-08-06 21:05:56 <shesek> and I am planning on changing that
1212 2013-08-06 21:06:04 m00p has joined
1213 2013-08-06 21:06:14 <shesek> but I got caught up in another project (also bitcoin-related and open source) and haven't really had much time for it lately
1214 2013-08-06 21:06:18 <michagogo> shesek: How will it work?
1215 2013-08-06 21:06:21 <gmaxwell> It would only be a couple line change to make it so that 0 value outputs were OP_RETURN with the 'address' as push data.
1216 2013-08-06 21:06:51 <gmaxwell> It would be far far far better to move this crud to an external system though, and just do coinbase timestamps.
1217 2013-08-06 21:06:52 <michagogo> gmaxwell: That would work, for the $3 service
1218 2013-08-06 21:07:03 <shesek> michagogo, the very least that I want to do is make sure it doesn't bloat the utxo by using a 1-of-2 multisig
1219 2013-08-06 21:07:10 <michagogo> But if the user is creating the transaction that doesn't exactly work
1220 2013-08-06 21:07:11 <gmaxwell> michagogo: why does that need a "$3 service"?
1221 2013-08-06 21:07:19 <gmaxwell> michagogo: uh it works fucking fine
1222 2013-08-06 21:07:21 <shesek> and explaining the user how to send bitcoins to the multisig and back to a regular address
1223 2013-08-06 21:07:25 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Because he's creating the transaction with his own bitcoins
1224 2013-08-06 21:07:36 <gmaxwell> michagogo: send to address 1234 value 0. fucking done.
1225 2013-08-06 21:07:41 <michagogo> o_O
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1227 2013-08-06 21:07:48 <michagogo> I thought that doesn't work
1228 2013-08-06 21:07:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: 1) non-standard  2) client will not allow that
1229 2013-08-06 21:08:00 <shesek> gmaxwell, the bitcoin client doesn't allow zero value outputs... does it?
1230 2013-08-06 21:08:04 <gmaxwell> 14:05 < gmaxwell> It would only be a couple line change to make it so that 0 value outputs were OP_RETURN with the 'address' as push data.
1231 2013-08-06 21:08:15 <sipa> oh
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1233 2013-08-06 21:08:27 <gmaxwell> Would you all please _read_ what michagogo was replying to? :-/
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1236 2013-08-06 21:09:04 <shesek> gmaxwell, how would I tell the user to send an OP_RETURN transaction?
1237 2013-08-06 21:09:11 * sipa will just go back to his state of near offline-ness
1238 2013-08-06 21:09:24 <michagogo> gmaxwell: So your idea is for every timestamp to actually be done server-side?
1239 2013-08-06 21:09:42 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Where the server crafts this OP_RETURN transaction and sends it out?
1240 2013-08-06 21:09:48 <gmaxwell> michagogo: die
1241 2013-08-06 21:09:53 <gmaxwell> :P
1242 2013-08-06 21:09:59 <michagogo> I'm sorry, but I don't understand
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1245 2013-08-06 21:10:23 <michagogo> The reference client won't accept OP_RETURN transactions as standard, correct?
1246 2013-08-06 21:10:27 <sipa> he's saying that we'd modify client software such that every payment of value 0 is turned into an OP_RETURN transaction
1247 2013-08-06 21:10:36 <gmaxwell> michagogo: No, the client just should. We should be automatically converting sends to 0 value into OP_RETURN. It would be a trivial change.
1248 2013-08-06 21:10:47 <sipa> it still wouldn't be standard :)
1249 2013-08-06 21:10:48 <michagogo> Oh. As a general change to the bitcoin codebase?
1250 2013-08-06 21:10:56 <jgarzik> sipa, indeed
1251 2013-08-06 21:10:58 <sipa> (which can just as easily be changed)
1252 2013-08-06 21:10:58 <michagogo> Ah.
1253 2013-08-06 21:10:59 c0rw1n has joined
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1255 2013-08-06 21:11:07 <michagogo> I completely misunderstood that :-P
1256 2013-08-06 21:11:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, sure but there is already an open pull for that.
1257 2013-08-06 21:11:19 <shesek> gmaxwell, has the attitude towards storing non-financial data on the blockchain changed?
1258 2013-08-06 21:11:22 <michagogo> I thought you were talking about  chance shesek could make to the site as-is
1259 2013-08-06 21:11:28 <shesek> I remember people being very much against that
1260 2013-08-06 21:11:33 <sipa> i'm still against that
1261 2013-08-06 21:11:37 <michagogo> s/ chance/a change/
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1263 2013-08-06 21:11:49 <michagogo> And like I mentioned before...
1264 2013-08-06 21:11:54 <gmaxwell> shesek: People are very much against that. But we're even more very much against storing it in the utxo set.
1265 2013-08-06 21:11:55 <michagogo> [23:29:28] <michagogo> petertodd: (and also, if you're being purely selfish, in the far future, having it as a UTXO might make it easier to verify)
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1267 2013-08-06 21:12:32 <sipa> but if the choice is between people masking non-financial data as transactions - burdening the UTXO set forever - or providing a system-wide much cheaper standard way to do so...
1268 2013-08-06 21:12:36 * sipa is unsure
1269 2013-08-06 21:13:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, who says its cheaper? it would have the ~same cost as dead pubkey approach.
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1271 2013-08-06 21:13:51 <shesek> gmaxwell, a dead pubkey has to stay in the utxo forever, an OP_RETURN tx doesn't
1272 2013-08-06 21:13:51 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Hmm? How is it the same cost if it doesn't need to be stored in the UTXO set?
1273 2013-08-06 21:14:21 <michagogo> I think sipa meant cost in terms of whole-network resources, not cost as in "how much of a tx fee does the user need to pay"
1274 2013-08-06 21:14:22 c0rw1n_ has joined
1275 2013-08-06 21:14:37 <michagogo> s/cost/cheapness/
1276 2013-08-06 21:14:38 <shesek> btw: I'm working on a little website to make it easier for people to use arbitrated transactions, and for people to offer arbitration services
1277 2013-08-06 21:14:54 <shesek> its still very alpha-ish, but I'm going to start beta-testing in a few days
1278 2013-08-06 21:14:56 <gmaxwell> shesek: michagogo read my sentence as I intended it.
1279 2013-08-06 21:15:04 <shesek> if anyone is interested in helping out, drop me a pm
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1283 2013-08-06 21:16:22 <gmaxwell> The whole stamping usage is more than a little insane though. coinbase linkage adds no bloat, which is way better than O(N) load in the historical chain. I don't fret about it too much because fee competition seems to be driving out more inefficient usages even now.
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1363 2013-08-06 22:46:20 <Goonie> BlueMatt: your testnet node appears to be down.
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1372 2013-08-06 22:55:05 <Luke-Jr> wtf, -fPIC != -fpic ?
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1375 2013-08-06 22:58:53 <nsh> you must be from MSland
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1377 2013-08-06 22:59:27 <nsh> actually, command switches are case-sensitive in many windows programs too
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1401 2013-08-06 23:37:59 <Luke-Jr> nsh: long parameters that differ only in case, with different meanings, I have never seen before on any platform
1402 2013-08-06 23:38:46 * nsh shrugs -- cat PIC !=  cat pic
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1404 2013-08-06 23:39:15 <nsh> but yeah, i'd probably choose to do it less confusingly
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1417 2013-08-06 23:59:57 <sipa> Luke-Jr: from the GCC manpage, there is only a difference between -fpic and -fPIC on m68k, PowerPC and SPARC