1 2013-08-07 00:00:10 <sipa> and it seems the latter is just a forced version of the first
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   3 2013-08-07 00:01:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it generates entirely different code for avr32 :/
   4 2013-08-07 00:01:43 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I wonder if -fPIC on avr32 is just broken - it didn't look PIC at all
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  33 2013-08-07 00:52:39 <sipa> april 1st idea: rename the script operation OP_PICK to OP_RICK
  34 2013-08-07 00:53:03 <sipa> the effect on these source lines would be mildly entertaining:
  35 2013-08-07 00:53:12 <sipa>                 case OP_PICK:
  36 2013-08-07 00:53:12 <sipa>                 case OP_ROLL:
  37 2013-08-07 00:53:21 <gwillen> hahahah
  38 2013-08-07 00:54:06 <nsh> ahahha
  39 2013-08-07 00:54:27 <nsh> well, that was the geekiest joke i'll be hearing this week
  40 2013-08-07 00:54:41 rindradiating has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  41 2013-08-07 00:55:25 <sipa> You must have low expectations for the weekend.
  42 2013-08-07 00:56:10 <nsh> i'm hoping to be mindlessly inebriated for most of it
  43 2013-08-07 00:59:22 pneumaticallyrac has joined
  44 2013-08-07 01:02:38 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  48 2013-08-07 01:07:50 <casascius> Quick question, https://casascius.com/raw20130806a.txt is a raw transaction I'm trying to push to the network and am just having a hard time due to its size...I could recompile tools but am wondering if anybody already has any
  49 2013-08-07 01:08:16 <gmaxwell> if its over 100k ~nothing will relay or mine it.
  50 2013-08-07 01:08:16 <casascius> (37 kilobytes, 94KB hex encoded, has 1000+ txouts all at least 0.5btc)
  51 2013-08-07 01:08:26 <gmaxwell> hm. 94k should work.
  52 2013-08-07 01:08:37 <CodeShark> bitcoind sendrawtransaction won't work?
  53 2013-08-07 01:08:53 <gmaxwell> bitcoind sendrawtransaction `curl https://casascius.com/raw20130806a.txt`
  54 2013-08-07 01:08:53 <casascius> I have it on an airgapped node and I could connect the node to the internet but it's against my security policy
  55 2013-08-07 01:08:57 <gmaxwell> 72bec59c7649d4527d8d7848ebc36840c89f5d36d18db9a91afd34d800826722
  56 2013-08-07 01:09:03 <gmaxwell> done.
  57 2013-08-07 01:09:07 <CodeShark> :)
  58 2013-08-07 01:09:24 <casascius> thanks...figured it would be easy (my only handy linux node is airgapped atm)
  59 2013-08-07 01:09:26 <nsh> what was the purpose of the transaction? (out of curiosity, no need to answer)
  60 2013-08-07 01:09:36 <casascius> Funding silver Casascius coins
  61 2013-08-07 01:09:43 zacm has joined
  62 2013-08-07 01:10:15 <Temper> Is there a way to poll the MtGox API instead of using the IPN?
  63 2013-08-07 01:10:44 <CodeShark> what data are you after?
  64 2013-08-07 01:10:50 <nsh> ;;calc 1051 * [[ticker --last]]
  65 2013-08-07 01:10:51 <gribble> Error: "105.99998" is not a valid command.
  66 2013-08-07 01:11:02 <nsh> ;;calc 1051 * [ticker --last]
  67 2013-08-07 01:11:02 <gribble> 111405.97898
  68 2013-08-07 01:11:17 * nsh raises eyebrow
  69 2013-08-07 01:11:19 <Temper> I want to create a order, but if they pay outside MtGox, I want to poll it until 6 is reached on all the BTC
  70 2013-08-07 01:11:39 Neozonz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  73 2013-08-07 01:12:28 <nsh> casascius, again feel free to tell me to mind my own business, but how does funding silver coinage require distributing 111k USD to over a thousand addresses
  74 2013-08-07 01:12:33 <nsh> ?
  75 2013-08-07 01:12:57 <casascius> because i told everyone who bought the coins that i'd fund all the first purchases in a single transaction, and that ended up being over 1000 coins
  76 2013-08-07 01:12:58 <nsh> (just trying to grok)
  77 2013-08-07 01:13:08 <nsh> ah, ok
  78 2013-08-07 01:13:34 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  79 2013-08-07 01:13:36 <nsh> well, keep up the good work, i suppose :)
  80 2013-08-07 01:13:54 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  81 2013-08-07 01:14:19 <Temper> So is there a way to poll the API on mtgox as to the status of a order by order id?
  82 2013-08-07 01:14:34 cypher has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  83 2013-08-07 01:14:39 <nsh> there's a #mtgox where you might have better luck
  84 2013-08-07 01:14:59 <Temper> i guess that makes sense..
  85 2013-08-07 01:15:00 <nsh> depending on the alignment of planets and correct order of applying witchbane and frogs warts
  86 2013-08-07 01:15:04 * Temper facepalms
  87 2013-08-07 01:15:18 <nsh> :)
  88 2013-08-07 01:15:48 wiretapped has joined
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  90 2013-08-07 01:17:05 <Temper> are there any other APIs i should look at for BTC <-> USD type transactions? or is mtgox the "one"
  91 2013-08-07 01:17:38 <Temper> well really the USD <-> BTC part is irrelivant..
  92 2013-08-07 01:19:02 clr_ has joined
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  97 2013-08-07 01:20:48 <Temper> #mtgox is @dead
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 143 2013-08-07 02:19:32 <jgarzik> Amusing SD phishing site: http://satoshidce.com/   WARNING PHISHING WARNING
 144 2013-08-07 02:20:56 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 145 2013-08-07 02:21:19 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 146 2013-08-07 02:23:43 <nsh> you mean i might win money *and* i get free fish?  <enters all the secrets>
 147 2013-08-07 02:23:55 Belkaar has joined
 148 2013-08-07 02:24:39 <nsh> reg'd from panama
 149 2013-08-07 02:24:59 <nsh> no, that's just the address of whoisguard's offices
 150 2013-08-07 02:25:18 <jgarzik> Lame effort if you don't vanitygen 1dice* addresses
 151 2013-08-07 02:25:19 * nsh doesn't exactly understand how people don't get caught for these kinds of things
 152 2013-08-07 02:25:30 Applica__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 153 2013-08-07 02:25:31 <nsh> surely if a domain is registered there's a moneytrail
 154 2013-08-07 02:25:33 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
 155 2013-08-07 02:25:41 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik:  we caught someone in -otc trying to advertise a false 1dice address
 156 2013-08-07 02:25:44 <nsh> maybe just not worth chasing and enough layers of indirection
 157 2013-08-07 02:25:47 <TheLordOfTime> WHY AM I OPPED
 158 2013-08-07 02:25:56 <TheLordOfTime> seriously, how am I getting opped :/
 159 2013-08-07 02:26:01 <nsh> (services might have gone down maybe)
 160 2013-08-07 02:26:02 * TheLordOfTime digs around in access lists
 161 2013-08-07 02:26:17 <nsh> oh, you can set auto-op off in nickserv too
 162 2013-08-07 02:26:22 <TheLordOfTime> gribble must be breaking
 163 2013-08-07 02:26:43 * TheLordOfTime shrugs
 164 2013-08-07 02:26:53 <TheLordOfTime> note to self: set a watch for all +o modes on self...
 165 2013-08-07 02:26:55 <TheLordOfTime> anyways...
 166 2013-08-07 02:27:05 <TheLordOfTime> we did see someone in -otc trying to pull that, jgarzik
 167 2013-08-07 02:27:16 <TheLordOfTime> then there's the 85 1dice addresses I generated just for the hell of it.
 168 2013-08-07 02:27:34 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
 169 2013-08-07 02:30:00 <nsh> heh
 170 2013-08-07 02:30:14 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 171 2013-08-07 02:30:39 <TheLordOfTime> but just like the other addresses I generate just to stress test CPU vanitygen on my system, i hide them in a text file and never use them
 172 2013-08-07 02:30:39 <TheLordOfTime> :P
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 178 2013-08-07 02:35:58 <nsh> :)
 179 2013-08-07 02:37:50 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 180 2013-08-07 02:39:23 TheLordOfTime has quit (Quit: ERROR: Segmentation Fault in ZNC: admin.so: 56)
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 183 2013-08-07 02:44:57 <TheLordOfTime> nsh:  if you're still around, when my ZNC reconnected, can you see what gave me +o?
 184 2013-08-07 02:45:03 <TheLordOfTime> it should say in the logs...
 185 2013-08-07 02:45:49 <nsh> looking
 186 2013-08-07 02:46:03 Subo1978 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 187 2013-08-07 02:46:03 <TheLordOfTime> if not it should show up sooner or later in the logs
 188 2013-08-07 02:46:09 <TheLordOfTime> or i can utilize one of my other systems to watch...
 189 2013-08-07 02:46:51 <nsh> i see this: * gribble gives channel operator status to TheLordOfTime
 190 2013-08-07 02:46:59 <nsh> just now (6m ago)
 191 2013-08-07 02:47:05 <nsh> nothing prior to that in buffer
 192 2013-08-07 02:47:07 <TheLordOfTime> okay  that's what i thought
 193 2013-08-07 02:47:15 <TheLordOfTime> nsh:  yeah there shouldn't be except a quit and a join
 194 2013-08-07 02:47:20 <nsh> k
 195 2013-08-07 02:47:21 <TheLordOfTime> since i forced my ZNC to cycle connectivity
 196 2013-08-07 02:47:31 <nsh> (why can't you see the mode change?)
 197 2013-08-07 02:47:37 <TheLordOfTime> because i was disconnected :P
 198 2013-08-07 02:47:42 <nsh> oh, ok
 199 2013-08-07 02:47:45 * TheLordOfTime spins up an alt-connection
 200 2013-08-07 02:47:55 <nsh> i think my znc set-up keeps that in scrollback
 201 2013-08-07 02:48:01 <nsh> but maybe not, i don't admin any channels
 202 2013-08-07 02:48:17 LordOfTime has joined
 203 2013-08-07 02:48:21 * LordOfTime watches
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 208 2013-08-07 02:51:03 <nsh> TheLordOfTime, this module in znc would keep your client appraised of mode changes when reconnecting through buffer playback: http://wiki.znc.in/Buffextras
 209 2013-08-07 02:51:32 <LordOfTime> nsh:  true, except i have too many channels such that i'd lose too much scrollback
 210 2013-08-07 02:51:43 <LordOfTime> hmmm...
 211 2013-08-07 02:51:44 <nsh> ah, true
 212 2013-08-07 02:51:54 <LordOfTime> i *could* drop my bot I use for logging channels privately here...
 213 2013-08-07 02:52:06 <LordOfTime> she's in #bitcoin and #bitcoin-otc and is basically lobotomized for anyone b ut me...
 214 2013-08-07 02:52:07 <LordOfTime> but*
 215 2013-08-07 02:53:12 <nsh> you could add a perform on connect to /whois yourself on reconnect; if you're client's smart enough it might recognise the flag for the channel
 216 2013-08-07 02:53:17 <nsh> that seems less likely the more i think about it
 217 2013-08-07 02:53:21 nanotube has joined
 218 2013-08-07 02:53:28 * nsh nods
 219 2013-08-07 02:54:42 <DiabloD3> http://blog.soylent.me/post/57550580385/just-as-soylent-is-disrupting-the-traditional-food
 220 2013-08-07 02:55:42 <nsh> saw this (headlined'd) earlier in passing
 221 2013-08-07 02:55:56 <nsh> but i didn't realise that soylent, is... actually... soylent....
 222 2013-08-07 02:56:09 <nsh> i'd have loved to have been in that marketing meeting
 223 2013-08-07 02:56:48 <nsh> "oh yeah, i heard the name in this book. it's a totally nutritious mix of all the essential food stuffs that's mass produced and keeps everyone healthy for cheap"
 224 2013-08-07 02:56:53 <nsh> --"how did the book end?"
 225 2013-08-07 02:57:00 <nsh> "oh, i only read the first chapter..."
 226 2013-08-07 02:57:08 rethaw_ has left ()
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 228 2013-08-07 02:57:44 <jgarzik> U.S. Magistrate Judge Amos L. Mazzant in the Eastern District of Texas ruled on Tuesday that [Trendon Shavers] Bitcoin investments "meet the definition of investment contract, and as such, are securities."  http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/06/us-court-sec-bitcoin-idUSBRE97517G20130806
 229 2013-08-07 02:57:58 <gmaxwell> nsh: note that this soylent is kind of a gray color. It's the green type you need to worry about.
 230 2013-08-07 02:58:01 <nsh>  "The cognitive effects are extremely noticeable, in fact the most noticeable for me."  --Mr Totally Not-Made-Up Reviewer
 231 2013-08-07 02:58:05 <nsh> gmaxwell, good point
 232 2013-08-07 02:58:42 <nsh> how binding/precedent-setting is that, do you know, jgarzik?
 233 2013-08-07 02:59:56 <rethaw> nsh: It is going to take time, but it's a good sign
 234 2013-08-07 02:59:59 <nsh> it would be kinda funny if pirate inadvertently (or through selfless genius) paved the way for legal and financial acceptance of bitcoin
 235 2013-08-07 03:00:20 <nsh> though that is really how these things do tend to happen
 236 2013-08-07 03:00:27 <nsh> (through case-law)
 237 2013-08-07 03:00:29 <rethaw> I would love to have a chat with the Winklevii's lawyer right now
 238 2013-08-07 03:00:32 <nsh> (if not always through massive fraud)
 239 2013-08-07 03:01:11 <nsh> well, i assume they are a lawyer therefore you can talk with them whenever you want if you apply the cocaine and yachts directly to the relevant areas
 240 2013-08-07 03:01:19 <nsh> even during their children's weddings
 241 2013-08-07 03:01:45 <nsh> they might not be at liberty to answer some of your questions though :)
 242 2013-08-07 03:02:10 <gwillen> I am just amazed that priate did all this using his real name
 243 2013-08-07 03:02:21 <gwillen> he's either a complete idiot, or he really just thought that because bitcoin is fake money, nobody would care
 244 2013-08-07 03:02:29 <nsh> he might have conned himself more than anyone else in the long run
 245 2013-08-07 03:02:38 <gmaxwell> By definition this was not someone who made good life decisions.
 246 2013-08-07 03:02:47 <gwillen> I know, but I expected him to at least be clever
 247 2013-08-07 03:02:52 <rethaw> gmaxwell: which definition?
 248 2013-08-07 03:02:57 <gwillen> how can you run a huge ponzi scheme and not be clever enough to use a fake name
 249 2013-08-07 03:03:16 LordOfTime has quit (Quit: ERROR: Segmentation Fault.  Program terminated.)
 250 2013-08-07 03:03:19 <nsh> there are flavours of guile, i suppose
 251 2013-08-07 03:03:34 <gmaxwell> rethaw: by the general definition be being a theif! :P
 252 2013-08-07 03:04:08 * nsh would contend that theft is sometimes a great life-decision
 253 2013-08-07 03:04:13 <nsh> :)
 254 2013-08-07 03:04:16 <rethaw> I was astonished people were giving coins to someone with the nick pirate...
 255 2013-08-07 03:04:52 <nsh> these days pirates are lovable rogues that give you media entertainment
 256 2013-08-07 03:05:05 <gmaxwell> rethaw: well, I mean, it's not like pirate was the MOST nefarious name possible.
 257 2013-08-07 03:05:31 <nsh> even historical pirates were often utopian philosopher-poets
 258 2013-08-07 03:05:38 <nsh> ok, i'm kinda stretching the truth a bit there
 259 2013-08-07 03:05:50 <rethaw> nsh do you write?
 260 2013-08-07 03:06:01 <nsh> defence pleadings, mostly :)
 261 2013-08-07 03:06:16 <nsh> (no)
 262 2013-08-07 03:06:17 <gmaxwell> now if there was someone named ... nefario or something like that you might have a point.
 263 2013-08-07 03:06:34 <rethaw> gmaxwell: I caught that
 264 2013-08-07 03:06:37 <nsh> Welcome to Darth Sidius Investments and Holdings Corporation
 265 2013-08-07 03:07:07 <jgarzik> hah
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 268 2013-08-07 03:08:56 <gmaxwell> Besides pirate had really awesome otc ratings.
 269 2013-08-07 03:08:59 Luna has joined
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 271 2013-08-07 03:09:11 <gmaxwell> I wonder if very high OTC ratings are yet a positive scammyness indicator.
 272 2013-08-07 03:09:30 * jgarzik is glad he landed on the side of warning people away from HYIPs
 273 2013-08-07 03:09:33 <TheLordOfTime> gmaxwell:  so BCB's ratings indicate scamminess?
 274 2013-08-07 03:09:34 <TheLordOfTime> :P
 275 2013-08-07 03:09:40 <TheLordOfTime> seriously stop opping me gribble
 276 2013-08-07 03:09:49 <TheLordOfTime> Thank you.
 277 2013-08-07 03:09:55 <gmaxwell> maybe the criteria is "more positive ratings than nanotube".
 278 2013-08-07 03:10:01 <TheLordOfTime> gmaxwell:  lol
 279 2013-08-07 03:10:14 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: yea, bcb's in trouble!
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 281 2013-08-07 03:11:36 * gmaxwell points to #bitcoin
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 292 2013-08-07 03:31:06 <nsh> why isn't there now some kind of bitcoin-tech-based solution to comment spam?
 293 2013-08-07 03:31:26 <nsh> what would be required minimally to achieve this?
 294 2013-08-07 03:32:34 <rethaw> you just require a proof of work before posting a comment
 295 2013-08-07 03:32:41 <rethaw> check out bitmessage
 296 2013-08-07 03:33:20 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 297 2013-08-07 03:34:08 <nsh> hmm, how hard would it be to make a way to plugin bitmessage as a commenting system on e.g. blogs/wikis/news-sites?
 298 2013-08-07 03:37:35 <doublec> probably not hard. Give each article a bitmessage. make bitmessages that arrive at that address appear as commnts.
 299 2013-08-07 03:37:38 <joesmoe> or make some sort of bbs system that runs over bitmessage
 300 2013-08-07 03:37:52 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 301 2013-08-07 03:37:53 <doublec> bitmessage has an rpc api
 302 2013-08-07 03:38:23 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 303 2013-08-07 03:38:32 TheSeven has joined
 304 2013-08-07 03:38:47 <doublec> it's anonymous though so that could result in needing heavier comment moderation even if people don't spam
 305 2013-08-07 03:44:34 <nsh> well, it can still have whatever attribution layer you want on top as part of the site software
 306 2013-08-07 03:44:45 <nsh> mysql varchar is anonymous too :)
 307 2013-08-07 03:44:53 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 308 2013-08-07 03:45:16 * nsh reads some more about bitmessage
 309 2013-08-07 03:45:27 BTCOxygen has joined
 310 2013-08-07 03:46:00 chorao has joined
 311 2013-08-07 03:46:33 BTCOxygen has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 312 2013-08-07 03:46:40 shesek has joined
 313 2013-08-07 03:48:07 <Luke-Jr> nsh: because spam is a social problem,  not technical
 314 2013-08-07 03:48:20 <Luke-Jr> nsh: that's why Bitcoin has human miners doing the spam filtering
 315 2013-08-07 03:48:30 <Temper> i dunno about that
 316 2013-08-07 03:48:31 <nsh> hmm
 317 2013-08-07 03:49:06 <Temper> spam only exists because of flawed tech
 318 2013-08-07 03:49:47 <Luke-Jr> Temper: it is impossible to solve spam with technology alone
 319 2013-08-07 03:50:08 <Luke-Jr> without killing all unsolicited data
 320 2013-08-07 03:50:09 <nsh> spam classification might be facilitated by human input, but limiting the facility of leaving messages in a way that's tied to scarce resources sounds like a reasonable technological solution to certain parties abusing message-leaving-places
 321 2013-08-07 03:50:11 <Temper> i dunno about that either
 322 2013-08-07 03:50:42 <nsh> (clearly the write-good-english part of my brain went to sleep already, sorry)
 323 2013-08-07 03:50:55 MobPhone has joined
 324 2013-08-07 03:51:18 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 325 2013-08-07 03:51:30 <Temper> i used a voice chat that killed spam effectively
 326 2013-08-07 03:51:35 brson has joined
 327 2013-08-07 03:51:52 <Luke-Jr> Temper: most likely it just wasn't popular enough
 328 2013-08-07 03:52:16 enikanorov has joined
 329 2013-08-07 03:52:37 <Temper> no it used nested encryption of bigger primes that took intervention to "level up"
 330 2013-08-07 03:52:52 <Temper> then you could restrict lo9w levels
 331 2013-08-07 03:53:02 <Temper> and ban ids
 332 2013-08-07 03:53:21 <nsh> interesting
 333 2013-08-07 03:53:36 <Temper> so at level 45 it took 15 minutes to get an id
 334 2013-08-07 03:53:47 <Luke-Jr> so the spammers just need to buy a level 100 id
 335 2013-08-07 03:53:57 <Temper> well maybe
 336 2013-08-07 03:54:14 <amiller> making it expensive for spammers seems like the best that can be done :|
 337 2013-08-07 03:54:16 <Temper> but they'd loose it on the first spam message
 338 2013-08-07 03:54:46 <Temper> as the message was signed with the id
 339 2013-08-07 03:55:01 <Luke-Jr> "lose" it, how?
 340 2013-08-07 03:55:06 <Temper> at level 100 your talking 4 hours
 341 2013-08-07 03:55:12 <Luke-Jr> ok, so?
 342 2013-08-07 03:55:21 <Temper> id gets marked as spam
 343 2013-08-07 03:55:27 <Temper> can't message
 344 2013-08-07 03:55:30 <Temper> blocked
 345 2013-08-07 03:56:04 <Luke-Jr> by one person
 346 2013-08-07 03:56:05 <Temper> level 200 is like weeks
 347 2013-08-07 03:56:21 <Temper> well there are repositories
 348 2013-08-07 03:56:50 <Luke-Jr> so you're talking a centralized thing
 349 2013-08-07 03:57:00 <Temper> not really
 350 2013-08-07 03:57:06 <Temper> but yes
 351 2013-08-07 03:57:32 <Temper> it could easily be decentralised
 352 2013-08-07 03:57:52 <Luke-Jr> not as you're describing it
 353 2013-08-07 03:58:05 <Temper> like bitcoin, each time someone clicks spam on you it adds 1 to your id..
 354 2013-08-07 03:58:24 <Temper> the user decides any id under 100 with 5 flags is blocked
 355 2013-08-07 03:58:47 spitballsholst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 356 2013-08-07 03:58:53 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 357 2013-08-07 03:58:57 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin has no such voting-based spam filter
 358 2013-08-07 03:59:04 <Temper> building the id is like bitcoin mining..
 359 2013-08-07 03:59:07 <Luke-Jr> the spammers will just vote everyone else to balance it
 360 2013-08-07 03:59:18 <Temper> the vote is like the bitcoin log
 361 2013-08-07 03:59:39 <Temper> well.. there could be a transaction log
 362 2013-08-07 03:59:51 <Temper> you could decide to not count their votes
 363 2013-08-07 03:59:59 <Luke-Jr> …
 364 2013-08-07 04:00:07 <Luke-Jr> on what basis?
 365 2013-08-07 04:00:22 <Temper> the fact they later became flagged for spam themselves
 366 2013-08-07 04:00:51 brson has joined
 367 2013-08-07 04:00:58 <Temper> how does bitcoin decide to reject a fake transaction?
 368 2013-08-07 04:01:11 <Luke-Jr> miners (humans) decide
 369 2013-08-07 04:01:22 <Temper> miners are not human
 370 2013-08-07 04:01:50 brson_ has joined
 371 2013-08-07 04:02:11 <Temper> the miner app is just an app running code on a machine
 372 2013-08-07 04:02:20 <Temper> without any human interaction
 373 2013-08-07 04:02:31 <Temper> you set it up.. run it and then leave
 374 2013-08-07 04:02:49 <Luke-Jr> Temper: that's not how it's supposed to work, no.
 375 2013-08-07 04:02:55 <Temper> lol
 376 2013-08-07 04:02:58 <Temper> what?!
 377 2013-08-07 04:03:01 <Luke-Jr> there is supposed to be a human behind it making decisions
 378 2013-08-07 04:03:08 <Temper> lol
 379 2013-08-07 04:03:13 <TheLordOfTime> :P
 380 2013-08-07 04:03:14 <Temper> no there aint
 381 2013-08-07 04:03:23 <Luke-Jr> the fact that most miners aren't is why Bitcoin is being hurt so badly by spam these days
 382 2013-08-07 04:03:27 * TheLordOfTime gives Luke-Jr a +1
 383 2013-08-07 04:03:30 <Temper> what is a human supposed to do a checksum?
 384 2013-08-07 04:03:45 <Luke-Jr> Temper: they're supposed to make an educated guess
 385 2013-08-07 04:03:53 <Temper> lol
 386 2013-08-07 04:04:03 <Temper> well that was a flawed design
 387 2013-08-07 04:04:18 <Temper> humans and "educated" guess
 388 2013-08-07 04:04:59 <Temper> but in the app where is there even a possibility of human interaction?
 389 2013-08-07 04:05:11 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 390 2013-08-07 04:05:34 <Luke-Jr> Temper: a human decides which mining software to run, and configures it how to decide what is spam
 391 2013-08-07 04:06:28 <Temper> lol
 392 2013-08-07 04:06:35 <Temper> it is a crypto currency
 393 2013-08-07 04:06:36 eoss has joined
 394 2013-08-07 04:06:58 <gmaxwell> this conversation doesn't sound too productive.
 395 2013-08-07 04:06:59 <Temper> most people cannot determine if a signed key is authentic by looking at it..
 396 2013-08-07 04:07:07 <Temper> yep
 397 2013-08-07 04:07:10 <Temper> agreed
 398 2013-08-07 04:07:40 <Luke-Jr> Temper: it has nothing to do with the key
 399 2013-08-07 04:07:52 <Luke-Jr> if the transaction is totally invalid, every node drops it
 400 2013-08-07 04:08:04 <Temper> but basically the idea was to mix bit coin mining to an account id, the bitcoin log to a "spam account", and eliminate spam by using processing power to keep people from spamming
 401 2013-08-07 04:08:52 <Temper> Luke-Jr: apparently believes in bitcoin but not that the same design can be used for other things..
 402 2013-08-07 04:09:28 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin has not solved the spam problem.
 403 2013-08-07 04:09:35 <Temper> lol
 404 2013-08-07 04:09:41 <Temper> i just said HOW IT COULD
 405 2013-08-07 04:09:42 <Luke-Jr> it has solved the centralized inflation entity
 406 2013-08-07 04:09:46 <Temper> omg.. ok.. im done
 407 2013-08-07 04:09:54 <Luke-Jr> Temper: spammers have more resources than legit users
 408 2013-08-07 04:09:57 clr_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 409 2013-08-07 04:10:09 <Temper> doesn't matter
 410 2013-08-07 04:10:21 <Temper> each time they send out spam they'd have to START OVER
 411 2013-08-07 04:10:39 <Temper> the person abiding by the rules never would have to "start over"
 412 2013-08-07 04:10:46 <Luke-Jr> only if you have a centralized entity deciding what is spam
 413 2013-08-07 04:11:01 <Temper> lol
 414 2013-08-07 04:11:21 <Temper> talk about DENSE.. how does BITCOIN decide iof a transaction is valid?!?!?
 415 2013-08-07 04:11:56 <Luke-Jr> spam is valid.
 416 2013-08-07 04:12:10 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin has not solved spam.
 417 2013-08-07 04:12:22 <Luke-Jr> why do you think somehow Bitcoin concepts solve spam for other systems, when they don't solve it for Bitcoin?
 418 2013-08-07 04:13:09 <Temper> so i can just add 100000 bitcoin to a bitcoin id?
 419 2013-08-07 04:13:17 <Luke-Jr> that's not spam
 420 2013-08-07 04:13:20 <Temper> how? i really wanna know :)
 421 2013-08-07 04:13:26 <Temper> omg
 422 2013-08-07 04:13:31 <Temper> nm it is beyond you
 423 2013-08-07 04:14:08 <Temper> ame design.. different use.. and "accounting" purpose
 424 2013-08-07 04:14:15 <Temper> err same
 425 2013-08-07 04:14:38 Application has joined
 426 2013-08-07 04:15:14 <nsh> Luke-Jr, i think you somewhat overplay the problems bitcoin has with spam. What proportion of bitcoin transactions are spammy? Compared to, say, emails, or comments on unmoderated boards/wikis?
 427 2013-08-07 04:15:38 <Luke-Jr> nsh: I didn't say spam is *worse* for bitcoin than other things, just that Bitcoin hasn't solved it.
 428 2013-08-07 04:15:45 <nsh> right
 429 2013-08-07 04:16:14 <Luke-Jr> probably more than 50% of transactions on the network right now are spam, but I haven't measured it lately
 430 2013-08-07 04:16:14 <nsh> i think transaction fees are reducing the problem too, but i could be wrong
 431 2013-08-07 04:16:22 <nsh> hmm
 432 2013-08-07 04:16:28 <nsh> that surprises me
 433 2013-08-07 04:16:34 <Luke-Jr> nsh: at the expense of legit transactions that we want to go fee-less :/
 434 2013-08-07 04:16:59 <nsh> aye, it's lamentable in that respect
 435 2013-08-07 04:18:14 <nsh> but there's probably some law of conservation of costs to preventing spam. either social, computational, or financial
 436 2013-08-07 04:18:41 <nsh> at some point some sacrifice is inevitable
 437 2013-08-07 04:18:48 <Temper> how can you impse a transaction fee on a peer-to-peer network?
 438 2013-08-07 04:19:11 <Temper> and how would it prevent "spam"?
 439 2013-08-07 04:19:28 <Temper> if bitcoin "spam" is fake transactions..
 440 2013-08-07 04:19:28 <nsh> Temper, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
 441 2013-08-07 04:20:15 <nsh> miners and peers carry a burden of storing and processing bitcoin data
 442 2013-08-07 04:20:59 <Temper> yep.. but bitcoin spam is fake transactions right?
 443 2013-08-07 04:21:02 <Luke-Jr> no
 444 2013-08-07 04:21:27 <nsh> (and free lunches have been scarce since jesus stopped preaching)
 445 2013-08-07 04:21:28 <Luke-Jr> as with anything, spam is valid transactions that are unwanted
 446 2013-08-07 04:21:28 <Temper> ok i am lost.. what is bitcoin "spam" then?
 447 2013-08-07 04:21:38 <Luke-Jr> lol
 448 2013-08-07 04:21:58 <Temper> so someone sending btc back and forth between ids?
 449 2013-08-07 04:22:07 <Temper> every 10 seconds?
 450 2013-08-07 04:22:45 <Temper> what exactly is an "unwanted transaction"?
 451 2013-08-07 04:22:46 <Luke-Jr> Temper: yes
 452 2013-08-07 04:22:50 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 453 2013-08-07 04:22:53 McKay has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 454 2013-08-07 04:22:58 <Temper> well
 455 2013-08-07 04:23:05 <Luke-Jr> Temper: that's the problem: it's not technically definable
 456 2013-08-07 04:23:15 McKay has joined
 457 2013-08-07 04:23:27 <Temper> well that is how it is designed
 458 2013-08-07 04:23:28 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 459 2013-08-07 04:23:43 <Temper> i mean they promote the idea of creating ids for 1 transaction
 460 2013-08-07 04:23:49 <Temper> for "security"
 461 2013-08-07 04:24:05 <Luke-Jr> addresses are not ids.
 462 2013-08-07 04:24:13 <Temper> whatever
 463 2013-08-07 04:24:14 <Luke-Jr> they're one time use destinations
 464 2013-08-07 04:24:19 <Temper> splitting hairs now?
 465 2013-08-07 04:25:07 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
 466 2013-08-07 04:25:16 <Temper> and addresses are by definition ids
 467 2013-08-07 04:25:26 <Temper> remember id stands for identification
 468 2013-08-07 04:25:37 <Luke-Jr> and addresses don't identify anything
 469 2013-08-07 04:25:49 <Temper> like a UUID?
 470 2013-08-07 04:26:04 <Temper> omg
 471 2013-08-07 04:26:06 prototypesettled has joined
 472 2013-08-07 04:26:12 <Temper> are you trying to be obtuse?
 473 2013-08-07 04:26:34 <gmaxwell> Temper: he's trying to be helpful and answer your questions.
 474 2013-08-07 04:26:48 <gmaxwell> I think he should stop wasting is time, as it looks like you simply want to argue.
 475 2013-08-07 04:27:08 <Temper> maybe..
 476 2013-08-07 04:27:16 <Temper> i did learn what bitcoin "spam" is
 477 2013-08-07 04:27:32 freewil has joined
 478 2013-08-07 04:27:32 <Temper> not sure how it is measured
 479 2013-08-07 04:28:16 <gmaxwell> his reponse earlier is that there is no simple objective way to measure it, which is why the ability of the human participants in the bitcoin ecosystem to adapt is important.
 480 2013-08-07 04:28:39 <Temper> well he said that 50% of the network was spam
 481 2013-08-07 04:28:47 <Temper> it sounded like a measurement
 482 2013-08-07 04:28:58 <Temper> so i assumed they were fake rejected transactions
 483 2013-08-07 04:29:09 <Temper> more like DOS
 484 2013-08-07 04:30:12 <Temper> the optional fee thing sound like a solutions too
 485 2013-08-07 04:30:29 <Temper> if you're not willing to pay you have to wait for it to go through
 486 2013-08-07 04:31:51 egis has joined
 487 2013-08-07 04:31:53 <Temper> it also seems to solve the problem i was expecting
 488 2013-08-07 04:31:55 <Luke-Jr> Temper: the largest spammer on the network has a way to trick other people into covering the fees
 489 2013-08-07 04:32:12 <Temper> whereas, after time there is no incentive to run miners are the return is nil
 490 2013-08-07 04:32:32 <Temper> -are+as
 491 2013-08-07 04:33:01 <Luke-Jr> the return is a working system, plus transaction fees
 492 2013-08-07 04:33:27 <Temper> Luke-Jr: sounds brilliant to me.. how do they get others to cover the fees?
 493 2013-08-07 04:34:19 <Luke-Jr> Temper: social engineering; they exploit gamblers, and take the fees out of their winnings basically
 494 2013-08-07 04:34:35 gritball has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 495 2013-08-07 04:34:50 <Temper> well.. the "working system" thing will fall to "the tragedy of the commons".. i see no downfall to the transaction fee but the fee itself
 496 2013-08-07 04:35:03 gritball has joined
 497 2013-08-07 04:35:06 <Temper> wow there are btc casinos?
 498 2013-08-07 04:35:09 <Temper> lol
 499 2013-08-07 04:35:16 <Temper> i guess i should have guessed
 500 2013-08-07 04:35:35 <Temper> i bet each play is probably a "transaction" too
 501 2013-08-07 04:35:41 <Luke-Jr> on the spam one, yes
 502 2013-08-07 04:35:57 <Luke-Jr> lots of casinos that run without spamming the system
 503 2013-08-07 04:36:37 <Temper> so if addresses are not ids.. and you can create an address for 1 transaction.. does it all go into 1 account?
 504 2013-08-07 04:36:48 <Luke-Jr> yes
 505 2013-08-07 04:37:01 <Luke-Jr> unless you have it go to more than 1 account
 506 2013-08-07 04:37:14 <Luke-Jr> accounts are totally invisible to the p2p network
 507 2013-08-07 04:37:39 <Temper> weird
 508 2013-08-07 04:37:49 <Temper> so.. when i have a wallet what is in it?
 509 2013-08-07 04:38:09 <Temper> a list of addresses?
 510 2013-08-07 04:38:25 <Luke-Jr> no
 511 2013-08-07 04:38:47 <Temper> the account.. which i am guessing is like a private key?
 512 2013-08-07 04:38:47 <Luke-Jr> wallets contain multiple accounts, their metadata, and numerous ECDSA keys
 513 2013-08-07 04:38:54 <Luke-Jr> no, accounts are just beancounters
 514 2013-08-07 04:39:01 <Luke-Jr> they can even be negative
 515 2013-08-07 04:39:31 <Temper> hrmm
 516 2013-08-07 04:40:02 <Temper> so if i have 5btc in ACC1 and -1 btc in ACC2 my wallet shows 4btc kinda thing?
 517 2013-08-07 04:40:32 <Luke-Jr> right
 518 2013-08-07 04:40:36 <Temper> also how is any of this secure if you use mtgox?
 519 2013-08-07 04:40:47 <Temper> doesn't mtgox know everything you are doing?
 520 2013-08-07 04:40:49 <Luke-Jr> if you're storing coins at mtgox, you're trusting mtgox to secure them
 521 2013-08-07 04:40:53 prototypesettled has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 522 2013-08-07 04:41:16 <Temper> don't you have to use one of them?
 523 2013-08-07 04:41:28 <Luke-Jr> your bank knowing what you do using it, is not a security issue
 524 2013-08-07 04:41:38 <Luke-Jr> no, you can just run a wallet yourself
 525 2013-08-07 04:42:05 <Temper> Luke-Jr: my bank knowing where i go and what i buy is a security issue
 526 2013-08-07 04:42:14 <Temper> i just have no alternative
 527 2013-08-07 04:42:27 <Temper> except loads of cash.. which is a security issue as well
 528 2013-08-07 04:42:41 <Luke-Jr> well, you have those same options with bitcoin
 529 2013-08-07 04:42:53 <Luke-Jr> either you trust a bank to secure your money, and they know what you use your "debit card" for
 530 2013-08-07 04:43:04 <Temper> so when you "run you own wallet" what are you doing?
 531 2013-08-07 04:43:10 <Luke-Jr> or you run a wallet yourself, and are responsible for making sure viruses or thieves don't steal it
 532 2013-08-07 04:43:31 <Temper> you run the bitcoin app?
 533 2013-08-07 04:43:33 <Luke-Jr> Temper: storing your sensitive wallet file
 534 2013-08-07 04:43:35 <Luke-Jr> yes
 535 2013-08-07 04:43:46 handle_ has joined
 536 2013-08-07 04:43:50 <Temper> i c
 537 2013-08-07 04:43:58 <Luke-Jr> the wallet software will use your sensitive wallet file to transact directly
 538 2013-08-07 04:44:39 <Temper> so.. if i wanted to make a website to automatically recieve bitcoin payments.. like in a checkout process.. i could do it all on the same server as the webserver?
 539 2013-08-07 04:45:12 <Luke-Jr> you could, but it'd be stupid
 540 2013-08-07 04:45:38 <Temper> well assume i am running an esxi server and the webserver and processing system are two different vms
 541 2013-08-07 04:45:43 <Luke-Jr> really you want to make a watch-only copy of your wallet, and give the webserver access to that
 542 2013-08-07 04:45:52 <Luke-Jr> and store the read-write wallet in a secured location
 543 2013-08-07 04:45:54 <Luke-Jr> offline
 544 2013-08-07 04:46:15 handle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 545 2013-08-07 04:46:22 <Temper> can a watch only copy create addresses?
 546 2013-08-07 04:46:27 <Luke-Jr> yes
 547 2013-08-07 04:46:34 <Temper> or how do i determine who i got the btc from?
 548 2013-08-07 04:46:47 <Luke-Jr> you create an address for each purchase
 549 2013-08-07 04:46:50 <Luke-Jr> note Bitcoin-Qt doesn't support this stuff yet
 550 2013-08-07 04:46:59 <Luke-Jr> Armory does. I think Electrum too.
 551 2013-08-07 04:47:08 <Temper> lost me again
 552 2013-08-07 04:47:18 <Temper> i would be using php or c# .net
 553 2013-08-07 04:47:24 <Temper> most likely php
 554 2013-08-07 04:47:48 <Luke-Jr> wallet software
 555 2013-08-07 04:48:02 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt is the most popular one, but it doesn't support watch-only wallets yet
 556 2013-08-07 04:48:12 <Luke-Jr> or even copyable ("HD") wallets
 557 2013-08-07 04:48:22 <Luke-Jr> Armory and Electrum are other clients, that do
 558 2013-08-07 04:52:43 <Temper> this doesn't look like something that can interface with a script..
 559 2013-08-07 04:53:09 <Temper> electron has a console option that returns the json but..
 560 2013-08-07 04:53:24 gruvfunk has joined
 561 2013-08-07 04:53:27 <Temper> some command still seem to need human interaction
 562 2013-08-07 04:54:55 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 563 2013-08-07 04:55:03 <Luke-Jr> it's possible there is no ready-to-go watch-only wallet for webservers yet.
 564 2013-08-07 04:55:09 <Luke-Jr> a lot of merchants use BitPay
 565 2013-08-07 04:55:56 Belkaar has joined
 566 2013-08-07 04:56:48 <Temper> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PHP_developer_intro
 567 2013-08-07 04:58:31 <Luke-Jr> sure, you can do that. but it isn't very safe.
 568 2013-08-07 04:59:54 <CodeShark> was there just a major fork or is blockchain.info just horribly backed up?
 569 2013-08-07 05:00:46 <nsh> <1m since last block for me on bc.i
 570 2013-08-07 05:00:59 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: my 0.7.2 and next-test clients are in agreement
 571 2013-08-07 05:01:02 <Temper> Luke-Jr: what if i send each recieved btc immediately after recieving it to a "safe" wallet?
 572 2013-08-07 05:01:07 <gmaxwell> everything looks fine here.
 573 2013-08-07 05:01:15 <gmaxwell> bc.i is just stuck ... again, I guess.
 574 2013-08-07 05:01:33 <CodeShark> my nodes don't see a problem either
 575 2013-08-07 05:01:37 <Luke-Jr> Temper: might be an okay workaround if you don't have much activity
 576 2013-08-07 05:01:55 <CodeShark> Temper, it's better to just have it send directly to the safe wallet in the first place :)
 577 2013-08-07 05:02:12 <nsh> Temper, you don't need to be "online" to receive funds
 578 2013-08-07 05:02:19 <CodeShark> you don't need private keys to detect payments
 579 2013-08-07 05:02:23 <nsh> money can be send to a paper wallet
 580 2013-08-07 05:02:38 <Luke-Jr> ..
 581 2013-08-07 05:02:41 <Luke-Jr> guys, read the context XD
 582 2013-08-07 05:03:00 meLon has joined
 583 2013-08-07 05:03:01 <nsh> oh, i'm not playing if we have to pay attention before throwing out oars in
 584 2013-08-07 05:03:02 <nsh> :)
 585 2013-08-07 05:03:06 <nsh> *our
 586 2013-08-07 05:03:07 <Luke-Jr> that was in response to lack of a webservice-capable watch-only HD wallet
 587 2013-08-07 05:03:15 <nsh> right, sorry
 588 2013-08-07 05:03:30 <Temper> its all good
 589 2013-08-07 05:03:36 <Temper> i'm learning lots
 590 2013-08-07 05:03:51 <Temper> even if i am an arguementitive asshole :P
 591 2013-08-07 05:03:59 <Temper> that can't spell
 592 2013-08-07 05:07:17 <Temper> bitcoin seems great.. since my interest was sparked by no transaction fees but it doesn't seem quite there yet..
 593 2013-08-07 05:07:42 <Temper> could i use electron to create a read-only wallet then use that in the bitcoind?
 594 2013-08-07 05:07:47 <Luke-Jr> it's going the opposite direction
 595 2013-08-07 05:07:58 <Luke-Jr> "no transaction fees" was never intended to be more than a temporary thing
 596 2013-08-07 05:08:10 <Luke-Jr> no, wallets do not have compatible formats
 597 2013-08-07 05:08:45 <Temper> lol.. that's like computer interoperability 101..
 598 2013-08-07 05:09:33 <Temper> so do you think in time the transaction fees will outpace visa?
 599 2013-08-07 05:09:45 <Luke-Jr> hopefully not
 600 2013-08-07 05:09:54 <Luke-Jr> depends on if development can keep up with users
 601 2013-08-07 05:10:03 <gmaxwell> who knows? but if you want visa, why not use visa (denominated in btc, of course)
 602 2013-08-07 05:10:05 <Temper> cause i think i would have to pay 2.4% + $0.30 with visa
 603 2013-08-07 05:10:20 <CodeShark> wallets do not have compatible formats but are generally not too difficult to interconvert if you have some programming skills
 604 2013-08-07 05:10:25 <Temper> you can get a visa bitcoin?
 605 2013-08-07 05:10:43 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you can't convert a view-only HD wallet to a bitcoind-compatible format ;)
 606 2013-08-07 05:10:46 <gmaxwell> Temper: not today, but seems like it would be likely in a world where btc was popular enough to have compariable txn fees.
 607 2013-08-07 05:10:52 <CodeShark> Luke-
 608 2013-08-07 05:11:03 <CodeShark> I guess you're right
 609 2013-08-07 05:11:15 <CodeShark> well..
 610 2013-08-07 05:11:21 <Temper> well a btc visa would kill the anon part
 611 2013-08-07 05:11:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you kinda could, just by making an encrypted wallet with gibberish keys and prefilling it out as far as you might possibly need.
 612 2013-08-07 05:11:35 <CodeShark> you could if you use one of the watch-only wallet pull requests ;)
 613 2013-08-07 05:11:51 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: that doesn't do HD
 614 2013-08-07 05:11:52 <gmaxwell> Temper: sure, pick your poison. There doesn't have to be only one way... btc itself is not really anonymous in any case.
 615 2013-08-07 05:12:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, I guess
 616 2013-08-07 05:12:05 <gmaxwell> (it's weakly pseudonomyous as a replacement for privacy)
 617 2013-08-07 05:12:10 <Luke-Jr> Temper: Bitcoin isn't anonymous period.
 618 2013-08-07 05:12:34 <Temper> so why are they selling drugs on tor using bitcoin... lol
 619 2013-08-07 05:12:40 <Luke-Jr> because they're fools
 620 2013-08-07 05:12:52 <Temper> [chose to ignore cp - on purpose]
 621 2013-08-07 05:12:53 <gmaxwell> People selling drugs are generally not known to be making great life decisions. :P
 622 2013-08-07 05:12:58 <CodeShark> lol
 623 2013-08-07 05:13:25 <Temper> so the fbi could confiscate bitcoin?
 624 2013-08-07 05:13:30 <Luke-Jr> Temper: sure
 625 2013-08-07 05:13:31 <Temper> or at least track it?
 626 2013-08-07 05:13:33 <gmaxwell> sure, they have.
 627 2013-08-07 05:13:35 <Luke-Jr> easily
 628 2013-08-07 05:13:45 <gmaxwell> (confisciated someone's bitcoins)
 629 2013-08-07 05:13:48 <Luke-Jr> well, if the bitcoins are in their jurisdiction
 630 2013-08-07 05:13:57 <CodeShark> to be fair, though, even if the fbi and dea were tracking the whole thing they probably won't go after everything immediately and ruin their chances at building the bigger cases
 631 2013-08-07 05:14:04 <Temper> i was lead to believe that they were only able to do it because someone they confiscated from had an insecure wallet
 632 2013-08-07 05:14:22 <gmaxwell> There are, of course, complications. Every new technology changes the countours that law enforcement has to navigate.
 633 2013-08-07 05:14:25 gritball_ has joined
 634 2013-08-07 05:14:42 <Temper> how could you confiscate a bitcoin?
 635 2013-08-07 05:14:46 <gmaxwell> Temper: you could say the same thing about confiscating cash.  "Only because he had an insecure wallet!" :P
 636 2013-08-07 05:15:00 <Temper> yeah well they use force..
 637 2013-08-07 05:15:10 <Luke-Jr> Temper: grab the PC with the wallet and force you to give up the passphrase
 638 2013-08-07 05:15:10 <Temper> so i guess they could force you to hand it over..
 639 2013-08-07 05:15:30 <gmaxwell> Temper: a multitude of ways, you might get them while confisciating a computer.. or you simply hold someone in jail until they provide them once you've established from investigation that they do.
 640 2013-08-07 05:15:34 <gmaxwell> Temper: yep.
 641 2013-08-07 05:15:39 <Temper> but if you have "cash" in a bank they can just jack it from the bank
 642 2013-08-07 05:16:04 <CodeShark> bitcoin at least gives you plausible deniability
 643 2013-08-07 05:16:07 <Luke-Jr> Temper: and if you have bitcoins in a bank, the same
 644 2013-08-07 05:16:13 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: not more than cash
 645 2013-08-07 05:16:17 <gmaxwell> yea, so in the case of btc that kind of exposure exists when you use a third party service. Otherwise the confiscation has to be more direct (or via compromising your computers)
 646 2013-08-07 05:16:21 <Luke-Jr> you can bury cash in a large yard too
 647 2013-08-07 05:16:35 * gmaxwell gets a shovel and heads to luke's house
 648 2013-08-07 05:16:38 <CodeShark> can you use steganography on cash?
 649 2013-08-07 05:16:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: why would I keep cash? :p
 650 2013-08-07 05:16:48 <Temper> well.. so they could just go to mtgox and tell them to hand over your wallet?
 651 2013-08-07 05:16:50 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: WARGH WHY IS THERE NO MORE NEW HPMOR
 652 2013-08-07 05:16:59 <Luke-Jr> Temper: yes
 653 2013-08-07 05:17:17 gritball has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 654 2013-08-07 05:17:22 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it's _really_ hard to use tools like that effectively. "yippie I used steganography you'll never find my funds!" "whats with this .bash_history file we found here?"
 655 2013-08-07 05:17:31 <Temper> but if you did you own wallet.. and were crafty.. they couldn't get it..
 656 2013-08-07 05:17:34 <Luke-Jr> Temper: although MtGox is in Japan, so there may be some legal issues
 657 2013-08-07 05:17:41 <Temper> but you'd sit in jail forever lol
 658 2013-08-07 05:17:44 <Luke-Jr> Temper: if you buried a safe with cash, the same
 659 2013-08-07 05:17:53 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: standard attack/defense asymetry. The attacker only needs one hole and can spend weeks chipping away at your defense.
 660 2013-08-07 05:18:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I have my PC setup so .bash_history excludes commands starting with a space
 661 2013-08-07 05:18:14 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, I think I told you how to do that? :P
 662 2013-08-07 05:18:23 <CodeShark> gmaxwell, it's actually really simple if you're hiding very small pieces of data inside a huge amount of data
 663 2013-08-07 05:18:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: maybe. I think it was part of my eternal bash_history stuff
 664 2013-08-07 05:18:34 <Temper> yeah but if you forget the prepending space :P
 665 2013-08-07 05:18:37 <Luke-Jr> got sick of BASH discarding old commands
 666 2013-08-07 05:18:45 <CodeShark> any yeah, don't use bash for that :p
 667 2013-08-07 05:19:10 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: the actual thing itself, yes, perhaps, at least for people as savvy as us. Getting the surrounding details right— uh, especially when your machine might be bugged for months before you know you're being investigated.
 668 2013-08-07 05:19:41 <gmaxwell> I think it's easy to overestimate the defenders capabilities here. Certantly some will get away with it, but this is true for all kinda of crime.
 669 2013-08-07 05:19:49 <Temper> ok so if it isn't anonymous, can be tracked, has fees, and isn't anymore secure.. why bitcoin then?
 670 2013-08-07 05:19:57 <Luke-Jr> Temper: it can't be inflated.
 671 2013-08-07 05:20:06 <Luke-Jr> Temper: it opens the door to new innovation
 672 2013-08-07 05:20:14 <gmaxwell> ^ these things.
 673 2013-08-07 05:20:17 <Temper> neither can silver.. but you can't email that
 674 2013-08-07 05:20:27 <Luke-Jr> for example, you could have a corporate wallet that requires 3 people to cooperate to spend from
 675 2013-08-07 05:20:38 <Luke-Jr> Temper: yes, thinking of bitcoin as a digital silver isn't a bad idea
 676 2013-08-07 05:20:46 <Luke-Jr> except that silver is harder to track
 677 2013-08-07 05:20:47 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: it's always possible for an attacker that is sufficiently determined, skilled, and funded to break pretty much any defense in principle - in practice, most people give up unless you're a very high value target
 678 2013-08-07 05:20:58 <gmaxwell> Temper: the markets for metals are insanely distorted by people trading around scripts for metal that doesn't exist because there is no really sold way to prove that a note is actually backed.
 679 2013-08-07 05:21:06 <Temper> well my silver should be impossible to track
 680 2013-08-07 05:21:17 <gmaxwell> (with bitcoin, even if you're not actually trading it directly— e.g. using visa— it's trivial to prove the backing coin exists)
 681 2013-08-07 05:21:21 <CodeShark> actually, most people give up - period. some people won't give up if you happen to be a very high value target
 682 2013-08-07 05:21:21 <Temper> i bought it with cash from pawn shops
 683 2013-08-07 05:21:48 <gmaxwell> Temper: pretty trivial to tag metals, if anyone cares.
 684 2013-08-07 05:22:03 <CodeShark> tag metals? isotopes?
 685 2013-08-07 05:22:12 <Temper> yeah i doubt that happened
 686 2013-08-07 05:22:28 <Temper> they still wouldn't know where it is
 687 2013-08-07 05:22:40 <Temper> DO NOT DIG IN MY BACKYARD lol
 688 2013-08-07 05:22:43 <Luke-Jr> my savings is mostly silver and bitcoin
 689 2013-08-07 05:23:01 <Temper> i have almost 2 ounces of gold too
 690 2013-08-07 05:23:03 <CodeShark> do coinage metals differ in isotopic composition significantly between different geologic deposits?
 691 2013-08-07 05:23:03 <Luke-Jr> not that I recommend saving in bitcoin - I just haven't had the time to convert it yet <.<
 692 2013-08-07 05:23:08 <Temper> 300 ounces of silver
 693 2013-08-07 05:23:09 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I agree. Though its also the case that most defenders make a bunch of mistakes. I suggest you actually try releasing something totally anonymously as if your life depended on it.. and in the effort you'll may see that it's a bit harder than you think it is.
 694 2013-08-07 05:23:42 spitballshot has joined
 695 2013-08-07 05:23:55 <Temper> i have 0.000000 btc
 696 2013-08-07 05:24:08 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: the weak link in the chain for most people is hardly cryptography
 697 2013-08-07 05:24:13 <Temper> and am unlikely to buy any.. but i am interested in earning in btc
 698 2013-08-07 05:24:19 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I do know that through radioassy they are able to determine to source of gold/silver coins.
 699 2013-08-07 05:24:37 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Hm? above I was using bash_history as an example. I know this.
 700 2013-08-07 05:24:41 <Luke-Jr> Temper: that's a good attitude :>
 701 2013-08-07 05:24:49 <gmaxwell> Temper: yea, thats probably a good idea.
 702 2013-08-07 05:25:09 <Temper> i would most likely convert to cash on a regualr basis too
 703 2013-08-07 05:25:18 <Luke-Jr> you have limited liabilities, and you help Bitcoin grow where it needs to the most
 704 2013-08-07 05:25:21 <gmaxwell> I generally advise people who want coins to try to earn it rather than buy it, if its income you wouldn't have gotten otherwise you'll never likely regret the outcome regardless of what people value btc for in the future.
 705 2013-08-07 05:25:48 <CodeShark> I've pretty much earned all the bitcoins I've ever had :p
 706 2013-08-07 05:26:02 <Temper> do you mine?
 707 2013-08-07 05:26:05 <CodeShark> me? no
 708 2013-08-07 05:26:15 <Luke-Jr> I mined for CodeShark as a donation once :p
 709 2013-08-07 05:26:17 <Temper> that asic company has actually started selling the hardware..
 710 2013-08-07 05:26:27 * Luke-Jr wonders how much of that CodeShark actually got <.<
 711 2013-08-07 05:26:36 <Luke-Jr> Temper: lots of ASIC companies have
 712 2013-08-07 05:26:45 <gmaxwell> there are a bunch of ways to earn bitcoin, mining is probably one of the riskier ones.
 713 2013-08-07 05:26:53 <Temper> yeah
 714 2013-08-07 05:27:05 <Temper> easpecially with 4 video card systms :P
 715 2013-08-07 05:27:06 <CodeShark> I don't even remember what address I gave you, Luke-Jr :p
 716 2013-08-07 05:27:09 <c0rw1n> it's also a way to get truly anonymous coins, if you're doing it that way
 717 2013-08-07 05:27:18 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you don't use labels? :o
 718 2013-08-07 05:27:32 <Luke-Jr> Temper: video cards won't make a profit mining anymore
 719 2013-08-07 05:27:39 <Temper> i know lol
 720 2013-08-07 05:27:47 <CodeShark> I'm not even sure which wallet contained it
 721 2013-08-07 05:27:51 <Luke-Jr> lol
 722 2013-08-07 05:27:53 <Temper> costs more in electricity
 723 2013-08-07 05:28:10 melvster has joined
 724 2013-08-07 05:28:19 <Temper> i imagine asic will do the same
 725 2013-08-07 05:28:28 <Temper> no reason to think it won't
 726 2013-08-07 05:28:29 <CodeShark> I make more money in one afternoon of consulting than I've ever made in mining total
 727 2013-08-07 05:28:29 <c0rw1n> depends on the asic
 728 2013-08-07 05:28:31 <CodeShark> :p
 729 2013-08-07 05:28:48 <Temper> not really.. it more depends on the NEXT ASIC..
 730 2013-08-07 05:28:54 <c0rw1n> lulz yes
 731 2013-08-07 05:29:03 <gmaxwell> Temper: in any case, if you're interested in the underlying technology, you can get bounties to do testing and get tips from tech support if you learn enough about it.
 732 2013-08-07 05:29:07 spitballshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 733 2013-08-07 05:29:31 <Temper> gmaxwell: huh?
 734 2013-08-07 05:29:55 <gmaxwell> I'm suggesting some ways other than mining to earn btc. :P
 735 2013-08-07 05:30:02 spitballshot has joined
 736 2013-08-07 05:30:13 <Temper> i kinda laughed when i was searching bitcoin miner and an android app showed up..
 737 2013-08-07 05:30:24 <c0rw1n> ah yeah
 738 2013-08-07 05:30:29 <c0rw1n> it's a monitor for your miners
 739 2013-08-07 05:30:35 <Temper> gmaxwell: yeah.. i got that part.. but besides that it sounded greek
 740 2013-08-07 05:30:37 <Luke-Jr> c0rw1n: no, it's an actual miner.
 741 2013-08-07 05:30:41 <c0rw1n> wait wurt
 742 2013-08-07 05:30:49 <c0rw1n> hrm
 743 2013-08-07 05:30:51 <Luke-Jr> c0rw1n: BFGMiner inside
 744 2013-08-07 05:30:56 <Temper> yep
 745 2013-08-07 05:31:00 <Temper> its why i laughed
 746 2013-08-07 05:31:08 <Temper> a monitor would make sense
 747 2013-08-07 05:31:23 <Temper> sounded like a FREE dead battery app
 748 2013-08-07 05:31:28 <c0rw1n> what's the hashrate of the Best Droid Evar?
 749 2013-08-07 05:31:41 <gmaxwell> Temper: people get to do QA of the bitcoin reference software from time to time. People on IRC hand out tips in BTC to people that help them with tech issues, from time to time, etc.
 750 2013-08-07 05:31:50 <Temper> lol its proabably in the kilohashes
 751 2013-08-07 05:32:21 <c0rw1n> mh not sure with the gpus, maybe there's one that does a few MH
 752 2013-08-07 05:32:25 <Luke-Jr> Temper: the mining doesn't happen on the tablet
 753 2013-08-07 05:32:38 <gmaxwell> c0rw1n: those little arm processors are more potentent hashes/joule wise than you might guess.. should be better than any x86 cpu for cpu mining, for whatever thats worth. :P
 754 2013-08-07 05:32:43 <Temper> oh.. now it is sounding like your suggesting i give Luke-Jr a tip..
 755 2013-08-07 05:32:48 <Luke-Jr> lol
 756 2013-08-07 05:32:56 <gmaxwell> Temper: hah we've established you don't have any coin. :P
 757 2013-08-07 05:33:11 <Temper> yeah that was going to be my response..
 758 2013-08-07 05:33:22 * Temper is broke in the bitcoin world..
 759 2013-08-07 05:34:15 <Temper> and obviously i don't know enought to get paid
 760 2013-08-07 05:34:20 <Temper> i'm a newb
 761 2013-08-07 05:35:07 <Luke-Jr> he's suggesting you could learn, if that's your thing
 762 2013-08-07 05:35:08 <gmaxwell> yea, now. I'm just pointing out that learning more, beyond satisfying your own interest may leave you with some at-least-somewhat valuable skills in the bitcoin economy.
 763 2013-08-07 05:35:22 <gmaxwell> (since you seemed to have at least some interest)
 764 2013-08-07 05:35:34 <Temper> and some skill at progamming
 765 2013-08-07 05:35:51 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 766 2013-08-07 05:35:58 <Luke-Jr> right now, the Bitcoin economy is somehow insanely imbalanced between developers and users
 767 2013-08-07 05:36:02 <Temper> but the more i am learning about bitcoin - by people who seem to have no real agenda - the less i get interested..
 768 2013-08-07 05:36:13 <Luke-Jr> 3 or 4 people work full time on Bitcoin clients, total
 769 2013-08-07 05:36:34 <Temper> weird
 770 2013-08-07 05:36:48 <Temper> well i was more interested in a php client..
 771 2013-08-07 05:37:06 <Temper> which insanely does not appear to exist..
 772 2013-08-07 05:37:13 <gmaxwell> Temper: well sometimes we're perhaps a bit _too_ pessimistic around here.  For one, tech people are often cynics. For another, we generally think it's better to be fully blunt about the limitations, people do enough stupid things even when you don't gloss over the risks.
 773 2013-08-07 05:38:09 <gmaxwell> Temper: you can use php to talk to other clients, but bitcoin itself is a fairly exacting protocol, ... it's a fully decenteralized system, so the nodes are fully responsible for this billion dollar network.
 774 2013-08-07 05:38:31 <Temper> oh wait.. http://bitfreak.info/?page=tools&t=bitsci
 775 2013-08-07 05:39:06 <gmaxwell> "The script monitors the status of a payment by making use of the data supplied by blockexplorer.com" ... :(
 776 2013-08-07 05:39:06 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 777 2013-08-07 05:39:10 <Luke-Jr> lol
 778 2013-08-07 05:40:25 <Luke-Jr> well, at least it doesn't keep the keys somewhere else
 779 2013-08-07 05:40:28 <Temper> ok.. what am i missing?
 780 2013-08-07 05:40:36 <Luke-Jr> Temper: in short, that's not secure
 781 2013-08-07 05:40:57 <gmaxwell> Temper: it connects to some website (a non https one too!) to decide if you've been paid or not.
 782 2013-08-07 05:40:58 <Temper> yeah i read that and thought that too
 783 2013-08-07 05:41:17 <Temper> but i figured the responses were signed or something..
 784 2013-08-07 05:41:26 <Temper> ok well that's crap
 785 2013-08-07 05:41:33 <Temper> at least i'm looking :P
 786 2013-08-07 05:41:43 <gmaxwell> No, but even if they were— the website could still be compromised or its operator could turn dishonest.
 787 2013-08-07 05:41:45 <Temper> it seems like masterbaiting without the "payoff"
 788 2013-08-07 05:42:34 <c0rw1n> you mean pr0n for techs?
 789 2013-08-07 05:42:51 <Temper> like that..
 790 2013-08-07 05:43:31 <c0rw1n> i would never trust a php wallet
 791 2013-08-07 05:43:33 <c0rw1n> ever
 792 2013-08-07 05:43:45 <gmaxwell> there is lots and lots of stuff using bitcoin. But mostly the sorts of people who are looking for php solutions are probably also the sorts of people who are happy to trust some random website.
 793 2013-08-07 05:44:21 <c0rw1n> or maybe if i could see the code, the live code, and it's still totally tight, and if i have enough reason to believe it's safe
 794 2013-08-07 05:44:49 <c0rw1n> not likely, i don't read php
 795 2013-08-07 05:45:26 * Luke-Jr compromises c0rw1n's PHP interpreter
 796 2013-08-07 05:45:30 <CodeShark> lol
 797 2013-08-07 05:45:39 <Luke-Jr> c0rw1n will never trust PHP now
 798 2013-08-07 05:45:40 <Luke-Jr> :>
 799 2013-08-07 05:45:55 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 800 2013-08-07 05:45:55 imsaguy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 801 2013-08-07 05:46:00 <CodeShark> I think we need to be careful to separate the language itself from any prejudice of the types of people who use it :p
 802 2013-08-07 05:46:12 <c0rw1n> you're doing it wrong Luke-Jr, i don't _have_ a php interpreter
 803 2013-08-07 05:46:29 <Temper> lol
 804 2013-08-07 05:46:33 <Temper> what is wrong with php?
 805 2013-08-07 05:46:47 <nsh> lol
 806 2013-08-07 05:46:52 <gmaxwell> Temper: standard complaints: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
 807 2013-08-07 05:47:15 <Luke-Jr> I ran a PHP-based IRC bot once..
 808 2013-08-07 05:47:17 <Luke-Jr> <.<
 809 2013-08-07 05:47:25 <CodeShark> I wonder what that author thinks about bourne shell :p
 810 2013-08-07 05:47:32 <CodeShark> if you think php is quirky and irregular...
 811 2013-08-07 05:47:46 <Luke-Jr> now I run a PHP program embedded in my Python bot..
 812 2013-08-07 05:47:51 wamatt has joined
 813 2013-08-07 05:47:55 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no one advances sh as a modern language for large web apps exposed to a hostile world. :P
 814 2013-08-07 05:48:08 <nsh> pft, speak for yourself
 815 2013-08-07 05:48:09 <nsh> :)
 816 2013-08-07 05:48:32 <Luke-Jr> who wants to make a bet on whether it works today?
 817 2013-08-07 05:48:46 <nsh> your irc bot? probably not on freenode
 818 2013-08-07 05:48:48 <gmaxwell> not that you can't create good things in php, of course you can. But there is a lot of busted code out there that people ape, and most people who know better prefer to avoid it.
 819 2013-08-07 05:48:55 ljrbot has joined
 820 2013-08-07 05:48:57 <Luke-Jr> nsh: sure it is
 821 2013-08-07 05:49:01 * nsh loses
 822 2013-08-07 05:49:05 <Luke-Jr> not yet
 823 2013-08-07 05:49:12 <nsh> oh, yeah, that's supybot
 824 2013-08-07 05:49:13 <Luke-Jr> the question is whether the PHP stuff works
 825 2013-08-07 05:49:24 <Luke-Jr> ]y
 826 2013-08-07 05:49:31 <nsh> well, freenode has a ping on connect that wasn't standard a few years ago
 827 2013-08-07 05:49:33 <Luke-Jr> ^ if it doesn't respond, it doesn't work
 828 2013-08-07 05:49:55 <Luke-Jr> nsh: right, I just mean the long-running instability and memory leaks..
 829 2013-08-07 05:50:00 <Luke-Jr> from PHP itself
 830 2013-08-07 05:50:06 <nsh> oh right, well yeah... :)
 831 2013-08-07 05:50:23 <nsh> the best trick the devil ever played was convincing the world to use PHP
 832 2013-08-07 05:50:35 FlyingLeap has joined
 833 2013-08-07 05:51:06 <Luke-Jr> ]part
 834 2013-08-07 05:51:07 ljrbot has left ("Luke-Jr")
 835 2013-08-07 05:51:39 <Temper> i'd love to hear what the writer of that article sas about JAVA
 836 2013-08-07 05:51:57 * Luke-Jr doesn't have much better an opinion of Java
 837 2013-08-07 05:51:59 <Temper> i once wrote an app for java that had no use of random numbers and NO user input..
 838 2013-08-07 05:52:18 <Temper> each time you ran it it had a 15% chance of a "anomoly" output
 839 2013-08-07 05:52:44 <Temper> also, facebook is NOT written in php
 840 2013-08-07 05:52:52 <CodeShark> of the big popular web dev languages, python is probably the most regular and well-designed...but I probably wouldn't use python to write a really huge app either
 841 2013-08-07 05:52:58 <Temper> it resembles php but has its own interpreter
 842 2013-08-07 05:53:04 <gmaxwell> I want every programmer who isn't me to program in java. While it's not impossible to footgun yourself there, they did manage to take away a lot of sharp edges.
 843 2013-08-07 05:53:23 <gmaxwell> (obviously I hate writing that overly verbose crap myself…)
 844 2013-08-07 05:53:39 <Temper> i am a c# guy all the way..
 845 2013-08-07 05:53:53 <Temper> it is by far the best language out there..
 846 2013-08-07 05:53:56 imsaguy has joined
 847 2013-08-07 05:54:03 <Temper> it is also expensive and limiting
 848 2013-08-07 05:54:08 <gmaxwell> Temper: yea, too bad it's by msft and no one will trust them further than they can throw them.
 849 2013-08-07 05:54:22 <Temper> there is ofcourse mono
 850 2013-08-07 05:54:37 <gmaxwell> Temper: yes, and generally people don't trust that either. For the same reasons.
 851 2013-08-07 05:54:38 <Luke-Jr> lol
 852 2013-08-07 05:54:39 <Temper> and they want like $1500 to use mono with android lol
 853 2013-08-07 05:54:45 <CodeShark> I still consider Java to be essentially a dumbed-down safer C++
 854 2013-08-07 05:54:55 <Temper> what is wrong with mono?
 855 2013-08-07 05:55:02 <Luke-Jr> Temper: you must not know Perl
 856 2013-08-07 05:55:15 <Temper> perl is a magical language to me
 857 2013-08-07 05:55:23 <Temper> i once wrote a tcp/ip server app
 858 2013-08-07 05:55:34 <Temper> and to this day, i don't have a clue how it worked
 859 2013-08-07 05:55:36 <CodeShark> I don't really consider Java to be a highly innovative language
 860 2013-08-07 05:55:47 <gmaxwell> Temper: implements a language created and controlled by microsoft. :P and everyone excepts microsoft to be evil when it suits their business interests.
 861 2013-08-07 05:55:54 <Luke-Jr> I like MOO in some ways.
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 863 2013-08-07 05:56:14 <Luke-Jr> The sharp edges are so dull that you can run random untrusted MOO code.
 864 2013-08-07 05:56:15 <Luke-Jr> :p
 865 2013-08-07 05:56:17 <CodeShark> if I'm going to go with something "safe" and am willing to sacrifice performance, I might as well use dynamic languages
 866 2013-08-07 05:56:18 <k9quaint> go lisp or go home or go
 867 2013-08-07 05:56:20 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: the innovation is making it safer so that you can use more mediocre programmers with fewer terrible bugs.
 868 2013-08-07 05:56:30 <Temper> "safe"
 869 2013-08-07 05:56:37 <Temper> what the hell is "safe" code?
 870 2013-08-07 05:56:44 <CodeShark> as in you won't get segmentation faults
 871 2013-08-07 05:56:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: the dynamic languages are not safe for mediocre programmers due to a lack of compile time static analysis and type safty.
 872 2013-08-07 05:56:49 <CodeShark> or bad pointers
 873 2013-08-07 05:56:55 <CodeShark> or memory leaks
 874 2013-08-07 05:56:59 <Temper> well don't suck at programming
 875 2013-08-07 05:57:00 <k9quaint> temper: no pointers, no memory management, no buffer overruns etc
 876 2013-08-07 05:57:17 ielo has joined
 877 2013-08-07 05:57:20 <Temper> no memory management is a myth
 878 2013-08-07 05:57:27 <Temper> it doesn't actually exist..
 879 2013-08-07 05:57:37 <CodeShark> it does - it's called a restart :p
 880 2013-08-07 05:57:54 <Temper> i haven't used pointers in years
 881 2013-08-07 05:57:55 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you certantly do get memory leaks, just not ones from forgetting free.  And no, no null pointer derfes but a failure is still a failure. It's not hard in python or ruby for a stupid typo to kill your app at runtime, one which would have been detected in java/c++/etc.
 882 2013-08-07 05:57:58 <Temper> they were cool
 883 2013-08-07 05:58:02 <Temper> but stupid
 884 2013-08-07 05:58:11 <k9quaint> temper: I am referring to languages that have no explicit allocation
 885 2013-08-07 05:58:29 <gmaxwell> (well in java you actually to get null pointer errors, but thats another matter…)
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 887 2013-08-07 05:59:18 <Temper> what was it.. int i[5]; int *x; x=&i[0]; for (int t= 0; t<4; t++) cout << *x++;
 888 2013-08-07 05:59:22 <gmaxwell> but even in precisely collected GCed languages, poor object lifecycle management can leave you leaking memory. And this is actually harder to debug than a missing free usually is.
 889 2013-08-07 05:59:25 <Temper> yeah that makes sense right?
 890 2013-08-07 06:00:10 <Temper> or.. int i[5]; int *x; x=&i[0]; for (int t= 0; t<4; t++) cout << *(x+t);
 891 2013-08-07 06:00:40 <Temper> yeah that's just horse shit
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 894 2013-08-07 06:01:09 <k9quaint> I like pointers in kernel space
 895 2013-08-07 06:01:36 <Temper> now what would this do.... int i[5]; int *x; x=&i[0]; for (int t= 0; t<40; t++) cout << *(x+t);
 896 2013-08-07 06:01:48 <gmaxwell> yea, thats total BS ... abusing the left rotate operator for streams. C++ people were crazy.
 897 2013-08-07 06:02:16 <CodeShark> C++ lets you write code like that - it doesn't mean you should. the only time I would consider it really justified is if it offered some tangible performance advantage and ran inside a very tight loop inside a function that is very commonly called - and even then, there exist better idioms that don't sacrifice performance
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 899 2013-08-07 06:02:17 <gmaxwell> Temper: on my compiler that one uses mechnical turk to hire hitmen to kill the programmer.
 900 2013-08-07 06:02:25 <gmaxwell> Fully conformant with the C specification.
 901 2013-08-07 06:02:26 <Temper> c++? there is no such thing.. c++ is just a precompled c
 902 2013-08-07 06:02:50 <gmaxwell> Temper: that isn't true anymore.
 903 2013-08-07 06:02:53 <CodeShark> you might as well just say it's a precompiled lisp while you're at it :p
 904 2013-08-07 06:03:07 <Temper> gmaxwell: since when?
 905 2013-08-07 06:03:20 <Temper> all c++ is compiled to c then asm
 906 2013-08-07 06:03:29 <gmaxwell> (I mean you cannot achieve a C++11 compiler through any amount of simple preprocessing and a C compiler)
 907 2013-08-07 06:03:33 <Temper> theres no way they changed that
 908 2013-08-07 06:03:34 <gmaxwell> Temper: hah, no.
 909 2013-08-07 06:04:01 <gmaxwell> (I'm not sure _when_ it became impossible to do that, but I know it's impossible in C++11 if nothing other than atomics)
 910 2013-08-07 06:04:23 <gmaxwell> certantly no production C++ compiler has been like that in the last decade.
 911 2013-08-07 06:04:24 <Temper> anying written in c++ can be written in c
 912 2013-08-07 06:04:28 <k9quaint> c++ has never been a strict superset of C
 913 2013-08-07 06:04:36 <Temper> the hell it hasn't
 914 2013-08-07 06:04:48 <Temper> you learn all about it during phantom linker errors
 915 2013-08-07 06:04:50 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: no, but the earliest C++ compilers really were fancy preprocessors.
 916 2013-08-07 06:04:54 <CodeShark> anything in C++ can be written in assembler, too :p
 917 2013-08-07 06:05:00 <CodeShark> doesn't mean it makes sense to do so
 918 2013-08-07 06:05:12 <Temper> noit true
 919 2013-08-07 06:05:24 <CodeShark> C++ offers more powerful code organization mechanisms than C
 920 2013-08-07 06:05:37 <Temper> i can write 100,000 lines of c which would take you more than you life to write in asm
 921 2013-08-07 06:05:39 <CodeShark> without sacrificing much performance, if any
 922 2013-08-07 06:05:45 <gmaxwell> I'm not saying you can't accomplish the same operations, you just can no longer compile C++ by preprocessing to C (unless, of course you mean something silly like compiling to a big array of machine code and jmping to it :P )
 923 2013-08-07 06:06:14 <Temper> are you sure?
 924 2013-08-07 06:06:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: oh, common C++ idioms sacrifice a lot, though you don't have to use them.
 925 2013-08-07 06:06:22 <CodeShark> wouldn't you want to go straight to syntax trees and such?
 926 2013-08-07 06:06:25 <Temper> they have a c++ to asm compiler now?
 927 2013-08-07 06:06:29 <gmaxwell> Temper: I'm sure you can no longer do this, yes.
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 929 2013-08-07 06:06:49 <gmaxwell> Temper: and yes, thats how all remotely modern C++ compilers work. There is no translation to C anyomre, hasn't been for a very long time.
 930 2013-08-07 06:06:54 <Temper> i don't believe you
 931 2013-08-07 06:06:59 <gmaxwell> K.
 932 2013-08-07 06:07:07 <CodeShark> instead of arguing, go research it :p
 933 2013-08-07 06:07:08 <k9quaint> http://www.stroustrup.com/dne.html  <-- read that book
 934 2013-08-07 06:07:19 <Temper> c++ was meant to be a ahckjob forever! lolo
 935 2013-08-07 06:08:31 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: many common idioms do sacrifice performance - but a program doesn't usually require optimization everywhere - typically there are a few operations where most of the optimization effort is warranted
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 937 2013-08-07 06:09:19 <CodeShark> one of the nice things about C++ is that it supports idioms for all these different situations - however, it takes skill to use them appropriately
 938 2013-08-07 06:09:52 <k9quaint> CodeShark: just make a premium level service for "fastest performance" then price it ridiculously high, and anyone who complains about your app being slow you can point them at that
 939 2013-08-07 06:10:00 <k9quaint> sure beats optimizing code :P
 940 2013-08-07 06:10:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: in particular, idiomatic C++ does a lot of memory inefficient use of generics and it ends up trashing the caches pretty bad. Also pointer chasing.  This ends up all over the code, not just in little hotspots. Its difficult to optimize away.  Arguably its worth it, at least for the problem classes where C++ helps a lot... but I think those are the exceptions to the stuff you said that I'd otherwise agree with.
 941 2013-08-07 06:10:29 <k9quaint> you can live in O(n^3) land :P
 942 2013-08-07 06:11:36 <CodeShark> the thing that perhaps most annoys me about C++ is the fact that the whole template metalanguage was superimposed in such an ad hoc manner - turns out to be one of the most powerful features of the language if you use it right, but very few know how
 943 2013-08-07 06:12:16 <gmaxwell> Compilers work really hard to remove those overheads, but one of the downsides is that the bad performance becomes inconsistent and hard to mentally model. Sometimes pointerchasing through a class is fast because the compiler was able to prove the types and hard code everything, .. and sometimes its not and its slow.
 944 2013-08-07 06:12:43 <CodeShark> furthermore, most compilers give absolute crap error messages with templates
 945 2013-08-07 06:12:51 <CodeShark> making them very difficult to debug
 946 2013-08-07 06:13:01 * d34th compromises Luke-Jr's gcc
 947 2013-08-07 06:13:47 <d34th> oh wow massive lag spike
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 949 2013-08-07 06:14:06 <gmaxwell> anyways, when did this become ##language_debate? :P
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 957 2013-08-07 06:22:57 <Temper> gmaxwell: probably my fault
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1024 2013-08-07 08:34:39 <gmaxwell> incidentally, the actual latest filing in the pirate stuff http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/08/06/Bitcoin.pdf
1025 2013-08-07 08:38:29 <gmaxwell> It sounds completely reasonable to me.
1026 2013-08-07 08:38:36 <Luke-Jr> "Shavers argues that the BTCST investments are not securities because Bitcoin is not money, and is not part of anything regulated by the United States."
1027 2013-08-07 08:38:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: completely? <.<
1028 2013-08-07 08:39:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: go follow the argument,
1029 2013-08-07 08:39:40 <gmaxwell> "It is clear that Bitcoin can be used as money. It
1030 2013-08-07 08:39:40 <gmaxwell> can be used to purchase goods or services, and as Shavers stated, used to pay for individual
1031 2013-08-07 08:39:43 <gmaxwell> living expenses. The only limitation of Bitcoin is that it is limited to those places that accept it as
1032 2013-08-07 08:39:46 <gmaxwell> currency"
1033 2013-08-07 08:39:48 <gmaxwell> I can't see anything to protest there.
1034 2013-08-07 08:39:53 <Luke-Jr> sure, that part seems reasonable ;)
1035 2013-08-07 08:40:26 <Luke-Jr> Shavers' quotes don't seem reasonable
1036 2013-08-07 08:40:43 <gmaxwell> oh, well duh, sorry, I didn't mean "completely" in that sense. :P
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1038 2013-08-07 08:42:00 <Luke-Jr> guess that means Bitcoin is officially a currency in Texas now then
1039 2013-08-07 08:42:57 aa has joined
1040 2013-08-07 08:42:59 <Luke-Jr> hmm, IRC is really dead tonight
1041 2013-08-07 08:43:15 <gmaxwell> 'currency or form of money', for the purpose of that statute at least, but it's just a trial court memo for jurisdiction, not exactly persuasive.
1042 2013-08-07 08:43:21 aa is now known as Guest68760
1043 2013-08-07 08:43:43 <gmaxwell> there are other areas of the law where 'money' properly has a different definition.
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1109 2013-08-07 10:41:41 <CodeShark> in C++11, if vec is of type std::vector, does for (auto& x, vec) { ... } guarantee iteration from vec.begin() to vec.end()?
1110 2013-08-07 10:41:49 <CodeShark> in that order?
1111 2013-08-07 10:43:53 <sipa> yes
1112 2013-08-07 10:44:13 <sipa> (excluding vec.end(), as that points to one past the last element)
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1117 2013-08-07 10:54:07 <t7> don't you need a colon there? (rather than a comma)
1118 2013-08-07 10:56:12 <CodeShark> yeah, I meant colon
1119 2013-08-07 10:56:36 <sipa> indeed
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1186 2013-08-07 13:43:36 <jgarzik> mornin'
1187 2013-08-07 13:43:51 <sipa> 'fternoon
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1219 2013-08-07 14:24:49 <runeks> Temper: GCC doesn't translate C++ to C. Of course it doesn't go to assembly directly either. No serious compile does that.
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1224 2013-08-07 14:34:27 <sipa> runeks: don't feed the trolls
1225 2013-08-07 14:35:55 <sipa> hoolandi: sorry. no testnet coins available now
1226 2013-08-07 14:36:38 <nsh> C++ is translated to java opcodes, thence to middle flemish, thence to somewhere 3.5 clicks south-by-south-west of the bermuda triangle, thence to morse and finally back to C++ by which time poincaré recurrence has probably created the relevant machine code anyway
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1234 2013-08-07 14:42:16 <runeks> https://tpfaucet.appspot.com/ worked for me earlier if testnet coins are what you're after.
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1237 2013-08-07 14:45:24 <runeks> sipa: What's the status of #2861 (watch-only addresses)? Needs more testing or what?
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1242 2013-08-07 14:49:51 <sipa> runeks: gavin objects
1243 2013-08-07 14:50:01 <sipa> and i don't feel like putting more effort into it
1244 2013-08-07 14:50:05 <runeks> :(
1245 2013-08-07 14:50:23 <runeks> sipa: To the concept of watch-only addresses? Or to it being bug-free?
1246 2013-08-07 14:50:49 <sipa> he prefers watch-only wallets over individual watch-only addresses
1247 2013-08-07 14:51:10 <sipa> i certainly agree it has less potential for confusion
1248 2013-08-07 14:51:22 <sipa> but it makes it dependent on multiwallet
1249 2013-08-07 14:51:35 <runeks> sipa: Would this even be available in the GUI? I assumed it wouldn't.
1250 2013-08-07 14:51:55 <runeks> I mean, I think everyone would prefer multiwallet support. But I don't see why it has to be either-or.
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1253 2013-08-07 14:52:24 <sipa> no, it has nothing to do with the GUI
1254 2013-08-07 14:53:04 <sipa> anyway, i've done my part
1255 2013-08-07 14:53:20 <runeks> I assume the people using RPC commands know what they're doing. I see this as a feature for power users, mainly people who run services.
1256 2013-08-07 14:53:27 <runeks> sipa: And thank you for that.
1257 2013-08-07 14:54:25 hoolandi has left ()
1258 2013-08-07 14:55:10 <runeks> In any case, it would be nice if Gavin would formulate his opinion against the feature on the Github issues page, so we can have a discussion about it.
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1265 2013-08-07 14:58:47 <phantomcircuit> <runeks> I assume the people using RPC commands know what they're doing. I see this as a feature for power users, mainly people who run services.
1266 2013-08-07 14:58:53 <phantomcircuit> that's a pretty bad assumption...
1267 2013-08-07 14:59:49 <runeks> phantomcircuit: Perhaps. I just think it's a poor argument to not implement something because it can be misused.
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1298 2013-08-07 16:01:05 <jgarzik> New mining company: http://alydian.co/news/CoinLab-Announces-First-Incubator-Company
1299 2013-08-07 16:01:59 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, they're trying it again?
1300 2013-08-07 16:02:28 <phantomcircuit> oh it's an asic company
1301 2013-08-07 16:02:35 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, after interviewing with CoinLab, I can say they are pretty far along
1302 2013-08-07 16:02:56 <phantomcircuit> i guess that explains why they have so many employees
1303 2013-08-07 16:03:03 <phantomcircuit> it's certainly not for opening an exchange
1304 2013-08-07 16:03:09 <Graet> going for strike 3? pool wasnt succesful exchange thing is a lawsuit...
1305 2013-08-07 16:03:27 <phantomcircuit> Graet, peter has to justify his salary somehow
1306 2013-08-07 16:03:36 <Graet> i'm sure :)
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1358 2013-08-07 17:13:07 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1359 2013-08-07 17:13:32 <phantomcircuit> the dos logic seems to have just been injected in convenient places which aren't really semantically correct
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1445 2013-08-07 18:57:27 <phantomcircuit> 2013-08-07 18:58:01 Committing 6263862 changed transactions to coin database...
1446 2013-08-07 18:57:28 <phantomcircuit> lol
1447 2013-08-07 18:57:31 <phantomcircuit> 4GB dgcache
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1450 2013-08-07 19:01:33 <michagogo> .w shesek
1451 2013-08-07 19:01:37 <michagogo> Gah, I hate when that happens
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1508 2013-08-07 21:01:12 <phantomcircuit>     "connections" : 99,
1509 2013-08-07 21:01:16 <phantomcircuit> er
1510 2013-08-07 21:01:20 <phantomcircuit> that's probably a bad sign
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1512 2013-08-07 21:01:59 <nsh> jayz_joke()
1513 2013-08-07 21:02:13 <sipa> ?
1514 2013-08-07 21:02:48 <phantomcircuit> i have no idea what nsh is saying
1515 2013-08-07 21:02:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, public node that's getting quite close to the 128 limit
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1517 2013-08-07 21:04:28 <gmaxwell> 99 connections but my p2p node aint one.
1518 2013-08-07 21:04:38 <gmaxwell> (wasn't me, yo)
1519 2013-08-07 21:05:33 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i had the same thought
1520 2013-08-07 21:05:39 <phantomcircuit> but i couldn't bring myself to type it
1521 2013-08-07 21:05:50 <phantomcircuit> the timeoff set was also -99
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1524 2013-08-07 21:07:40 <sashman_> hey folks, bitcoin-qt 0.8.3 on osx crashes immediatly at startup, and it says that it failed with function set best chain. y is this happening
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1528 2013-08-07 21:12:08 <phantomcircuit> hmm another one
1529 2013-08-07 21:12:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ^
1530 2013-08-07 21:12:13 <sipa> sashman_: probably some index corruption; you'll have to rebuild the index :(
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1556 2013-08-07 21:44:03 <sashman> sipa: what means rbld index, download hole blockchain again?
1557 2013-08-07 21:44:21 <sashman> isnt there a smarter solutions
1558 2013-08-07 21:44:50 <sipa> sashman: just start the client with -reindex command-line flag
1559 2013-08-07 21:45:00 <sipa> it won't redownload, but it will have to process it all again
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1562 2013-08-07 21:45:40 <sipa> (i believe starting with a command-line flag on mac is harder than on other systems, but you'll have to ask someone else about that)
1563 2013-08-07 21:47:04 <sashman> thuvm
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1626 2013-08-07 23:42:27 <gavinandresen> Starting with a command-line flag on the Mac is:   open /Applications/Bitcoin-Qt.app --args -reindex
1627 2013-08-07 23:42:57 <gavinandresen> (from a Terminal command prompt)
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1631 2013-08-07 23:43:47 <alexwaters> does anyone have nice foss python code link that converts a private key to a WIF private key?
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1637 2013-08-07 23:50:04 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Ah, interesting -- didn't know about `open`
1638 2013-08-07 23:50:39 <gavinandresen> michagogo: 'man open' tells you all about it on OSX
1639 2013-08-07 23:50:55 <michagogo> I'd have told them to open /Applications/Bitcoin-Qt.app/Contents/MacOS/Bitcoin-Qt -reindex
1640 2013-08-07 23:51:01 <michagogo> (I don't use OS X)
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1642 2013-08-07 23:52:44 <phantomcircuit> i love how apples solution to shared library issues it to not share anythign
1643 2013-08-07 23:52:47 <phantomcircuit> great plan
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1646 2013-08-07 23:54:00 <gavinandresen> I think apple made the right decision; being able to install an app by simply dragging it into /Applications is brilliant.
1647 2013-08-07 23:55:01 <gavinandresen> It reflects a "end-user experience is #1" attitude.
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1649 2013-08-07 23:57:09 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, it's a better solution than dll nonsense but is problematic for security updates
1650 2013-08-07 23:57:34 <phantomcircuit> which i believe is a large part of why they introduced the store
1651 2013-08-07 23:57:56 <Luke-Jr> package managers ftw
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