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  21 2013-08-08 00:52:30 <gavinandresen> I love it when code Just Works…  (payment protocol handling code processes URIs of the form bitcoin:?request=… already)
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  24 2013-08-08 00:55:08 <Vinnie_win> Nice work
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  40 2013-08-08 01:10:56 <k9quaint> I consider it to be a bad sign when code just works
  41 2013-08-08 01:11:16 <k9quaint> I write unit tests until my inner demons stop reciting Monty Python skits
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  65 2013-08-08 01:55:36 <jgarzik> sipa, tempting to embed libsecp256k1 into bitcoin, a la leveldb
  66 2013-08-08 01:55:50 <jgarzik> sipa, to work around Fedora's openssl hobbling </self-interest>
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  70 2013-08-08 01:56:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: this hasn't escaped prior discussion!
  71 2013-08-08 01:56:53 <gmaxwell> I'm all for it.
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  79 2013-08-08 02:22:47 <Vinnie_win> What do I include to get std::unique_ptr ?
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  83 2013-08-08 02:28:03 <jgarzik> Vinnie_win, <memory>
  84 2013-08-08 02:28:15 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Thanks.
  85 2013-08-08 02:28:24 <jgarzik> Vinnie_win, i.e. the first hit when googling std::unique_ptr ;p
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  87 2013-08-08 02:28:40 <Vinnie_win> I was on that page but I can't find the #include line
  88 2013-08-08 02:29:00 <Vinnie_win> Argh...now I see it.
  89 2013-08-08 02:29:10 <Vinnie_win> "Defined in header <memory>" could they possibly make the font smaller?
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  92 2013-08-08 02:34:51 <devrandom> any idea why this p2sh redemption is slow to confirm?  https://blockchain.info/tx/d46a02af8f3847ab7f1bb2958634d61a452b9028063b305ca967193dca3fb98d
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 104 2013-08-08 03:01:28 <devrandom> (probably inputs too small / recent)
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 107 2013-08-08 03:02:56 <TheLordOfTime> ;;tslb
 108 2013-08-08 03:02:58 <gribble> Time since last block: 5 minutes and 43 seconds
 109 2013-08-08 03:03:02 <TheLordOfTime> devrandom:  it'll be picked up eventually, i think
 110 2013-08-08 03:04:01 <devrandom> right
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 142 2013-08-08 04:04:33 <gavinandresen> I need a short phrase that means "a transaction output that cannot be expressed as a bitcoin address"
 143 2013-08-08 04:05:54 <gavinandresen> It will be shown to users in what should be a very rare edge case:  A non-signed PaymentRequest that requests payment to (for example) an OP_CHECKMULTISIG output.
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 145 2013-08-08 04:07:09 <gmaxwell> "output script"?   as in "Payment to output script: 0xhex_encoding_of_the_actual_script"
 146 2013-08-08 04:08:01 <gavinandresen> oof… not sure I want to show users the hex encoding
 147 2013-08-08 04:08:34 <gavinandresen> it'll tend to scroll off the dialog box
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 149 2013-08-08 04:09:32 <gmaxwell> "custom script"
 150 2013-08-08 04:09:40 <gmaxwell> "custom payment script"
 151 2013-08-08 04:09:54 <gavinandresen> "custom payment script" I like
 152 2013-08-08 04:10:19 <gavinandresen> I hope that translates well......
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 154 2013-08-08 04:16:19 <gmaxwell> "tailored remuneration story"
 155 2013-08-08 04:16:34 <gmaxwell> (sounds like what you get when someone is late on paying back a debt)
 156 2013-08-08 04:16:51 <gmaxwell> translations are fun.
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 176 2013-08-08 04:45:05 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: we do have a disassembly function in bitcoind :p
 177 2013-08-08 04:45:24 <Luke-Jr> but it's probably sufficient to just show them the length
 178 2013-08-08 04:45:31 <Luke-Jr> "Custom payment script (%d bytes)"
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 410 2013-08-08 13:12:07 <TD_> sipa: is -rescan intended to empty the wallet of unconfirmed transactions?
 411 2013-08-08 13:12:16 TD_ is now known as TD
 412 2013-08-08 13:12:22 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270005.0
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 426 2013-08-08 13:36:11 <sipa> TD: no
 427 2013-08-08 13:36:20 <TD> that would be the reason then. perhaps it should?
 428 2013-08-08 13:37:10 <sipa> rescan really just finds missing wallet transactions
 429 2013-08-08 13:37:34 <sipa> dealing properly with non-confirming transactions is a different issue in general
 430 2013-08-08 13:37:42 <sipa> (it requires tracking conflicts, for example)
 431 2013-08-08 13:38:13 <sipa> you generally don't want a rescan to drop unconfirmed transactions, they may still confirm
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 433 2013-08-08 13:41:05 <TD> if they do, you'll see them again when they appear in the chain
 434 2013-08-08 13:41:38 <sipa> well sure, but you may be the only one who has them
 435 2013-08-08 13:41:48 <sipa> you want to keep rebroadcasting until confirmed
 436 2013-08-08 13:42:09 <sipa> the problem is not that you want to remove non-confirmed transactions; the problem is that you should detect that a transaction will never confirm
 437 2013-08-08 13:42:32 <TD> well, yes, of course, but that's harder :)
 438 2013-08-08 13:42:32 <sipa> or have some ability for the user to delete after some time
 439 2013-08-08 13:42:46 <sipa> yes, it is harder
 440 2013-08-08 13:43:15 _jps has joined
 441 2013-08-08 13:43:35 <sipa> the solution to non-confirming transactions in the wallet is generally -salvagewallet
 442 2013-08-08 13:43:41 <sipa> but that's sort of a very rough measure
 443 2013-08-08 13:43:55 <sipa> (removes everything but keys, and rescans)
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 450 2013-08-08 13:50:16 <TD> sipa: yeah that's more like what bitcoinj wallet replay does
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 452 2013-08-08 13:51:15 <jgarzik> mornin'
 453 2013-08-08 13:53:24 <TD> hey there
 454 2013-08-08 13:54:29 <jgarzik> Payment protocol hits the news: http://www.pcworld.co.nz/article/523173/bitcoin_upgrade_aims_smoother_e-commerce/?utm_medium=rss&utm_source=taxonomyfeed
 455 2013-08-08 13:54:32 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, ^
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 464 2013-08-08 14:13:12 <petertodd> jgarzik: Heh, I wonder how long it will take until people realize that the payment protocol, as people describe it, only solves security of sending funds, not receiving?
 465 2013-08-08 14:13:46 <petertodd> jgarzik: I gave a talk last night that touched on that... too a lot of guiding before one particularly bright audience member figured out that problem. :(
 466 2013-08-08 14:14:16 <petertodd> Sigh, just another example of how crypto is magic to people...
 467 2013-08-08 14:14:47 mrkent has joined
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 469 2013-08-08 14:16:53 <petertodd> Also interesting: I talked to someone involved in a company getting into the business of selling Bitcoins, and they did understand the issue, and were seriously considering giving customers private keys on paper that they would fund, specifically due to legal issues about liability for stolen coins - they liked my one-time-password idea for that purpose.
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 484 2013-08-08 14:33:09 <nsh> petertodd, magicness(crypt) =~ can_be_done() / can_be_groked()
 485 2013-08-08 14:33:12 <nsh> *crypto
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 487 2013-08-08 14:34:20 <petertodd> heh
 488 2013-08-08 14:34:39 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 489 2013-08-08 14:35:01 <petertodd> nsh: Though I did love one comment about the oracles/one-time-passwords idea: "But, that's so simple, why didn't someone do that years ago?"
 490 2013-08-08 14:35:24 MC1984 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 491 2013-08-08 14:35:34 <nsh> elegance often occupies the shadow of internalised complexity
 492 2013-08-08 14:35:36 <nsh> or something like that
 493 2013-08-08 14:35:41 <petertodd> That's after I did a whole 15 minute story about Alice and her tree fort and her fear of boys with cooties explaining the difference between passwords and signatures... :)
 494 2013-08-08 14:36:00 <nsh> sounds like a fun story
 495 2013-08-08 14:36:08 <nsh> online anywhere?
 496 2013-08-08 14:36:11 <petertodd> heh, yeah, my answere was pretty much "I got lucky and had the right bit of inspiration"
 497 2013-08-08 14:36:23 <petertodd> nah, too dark for videos, I should write it up though
 498 2013-08-08 14:36:30 <nsh> i'd like to read if you do :)
 499 2013-08-08 14:37:01 <petertodd> well.... we need to make an oracle tx where nsh the oracle releases funds iff Peter Todd writes up said story :P
 500 2013-08-08 14:37:25 <nsh> +1
 501 2013-08-08 14:37:41 <nsh> (first we need to make the great internet heist whereby nsh has any funds to release)
 502 2013-08-08 14:37:51 <petertodd> um... ok, testnet funds
 503 2013-08-08 14:37:58 MC1984 has joined
 504 2013-08-08 14:38:01 <nsh> :)
 505 2013-08-08 14:38:19 <nsh> i don't think i know your oracle/OTP idea either
 506 2013-08-08 14:38:23 <nsh> can you synopsise?
 507 2013-08-08 14:38:33 <nsh> (or link)
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 509 2013-08-08 14:39:38 <petertodd> nsh: OTP version:                    that's so simple, why didn't someone do that years ago?"
 510 2013-08-08 14:39:40 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 511 2013-08-08 14:39:44 <petertodd> er:                    that's so simple, why didn't someone do that years ago?"
 512 2013-08-08 14:39:50 <nsh> aye
 513 2013-08-08 14:39:53 <petertodd> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02601.html
 514 2013-08-08 14:39:56 <petertodd> there!
 515 2013-08-08 14:40:01 <nsh> thankye!
 516 2013-08-08 14:40:03 <petertodd> (stupid windows)
 517 2013-08-08 14:40:22 <petertodd> oracle version: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02601.html
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 522 2013-08-08 14:43:47 <nsh> i take it any simple key-extension of RFC6238 will not add the required entropy?
 523 2013-08-08 14:44:05 <nsh> also not clear to me why birthday attack doesn't apply (sorry, ignorant)
 524 2013-08-08 14:44:56 volante has joined
 525 2013-08-08 14:44:57 <petertodd> RFC6238 only spits out six digit numbers, so the key-extension would have to be so large as to be just totally impractical. :(
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 527 2013-08-08 14:45:09 <nsh> k
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 531 2013-08-08 14:45:53 <petertodd> Birthday attacks don't apply because an attacker has to find a nonce that matches a given digest; birthday attacks only apply if you want to find two nonces for the same digest, but don't care exactly what each nonce is.
 532 2013-08-08 14:46:39 <petertodd> Having said that, there could be obscure cases with third parties where a third-party generates the nonces, and wants to generate a second that matches for some reason... but seems unlikely in real-world scenarios.
 533 2013-08-08 14:46:42 <volante> is it true that bitcoin offers only 128 bit security?
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 539 2013-08-08 14:50:07 <nsh> petertodd, that's a neat idea but i'll admit it's on the threshold of my current capacity to understand. to call it simple perhaps speaks more to the abstruseness it's possible to get into in the scripting system
 540 2013-08-08 14:51:03 <kjj> volante: yes, but I object to your use of the word "only"
 541 2013-08-08 14:51:32 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 542 2013-08-08 14:51:46 <petertodd> nsh: ha, yeah, I'll assume the "simple" was only due to my excellent story about tree forts, lol
 543 2013-08-08 14:52:01 <nsh> :D
 544 2013-08-08 14:52:06 anarchy5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 545 2013-08-08 14:52:24 <nsh> volante, not all bits are created equal :)
 546 2013-08-08 14:52:35 <volante> kjj: ok i take back "only" :)
 547 2013-08-08 14:52:48 <nsh> volante, one bit of <inside or outside of fort knox> is relatively high security
 548 2013-08-08 14:53:06 <kjj> volante: http://www.nsa.gov/business/programs/elliptic_curve.shtml
 549 2013-08-08 14:56:04 * michagogo sighs
 550 2013-08-08 14:56:04 <michagogo> It kinda irks me to see the media get things wrong like "A bitcoin is essentially a secret number that is transferred from one software client to another using a 32-character alpha-numeric address." (from that pcw nz article)
 551 2013-08-08 14:57:19 <petertodd> lol
 552 2013-08-08 14:57:29 <petertodd> man, if we could transfer secret numbers securely...
 553 2013-08-08 14:57:44 <K1773R> michagogo: thinking/worrying about media is mostly a waste of time
 554 2013-08-08 14:57:52 <michagogo> I know, I know.
 555 2013-08-08 14:58:12 <petertodd> michagogo: join the bitcoin foundation, let them worry about it
 556 2013-08-08 14:59:11 <michagogo> Hmm?
 557 2013-08-08 15:00:00 <petertodd> michagogo: part of the job of the foundation is to have something called "The Foundation" that the media will talk to by default and get sane answers
 558 2013-08-08 15:00:08 <nsh> (about public/press misapprehension)
 559 2013-08-08 15:00:54 <petertodd> michagogo: The beauty of it, is the bitcoin foundation can say over and over they aren't the one true authority on bitcoin, but the media will (hopefully) still go to them anyway.
 560 2013-08-08 15:00:55 <michagogo> Ah
 561 2013-08-08 15:02:29 <michagogo> Also, I'm laughing so hard right now... The Israeli government uses smartcards for identification for businesses and government employees.
 562 2013-08-08 15:02:53 <michagogo> They have a guide to installing the software for the readers.
 563 2013-08-08 15:03:00 <michagogo> That guide is at http://www.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/A19BC418-5D97-46C8-BA70-47B69AE4972A/0/20111122_guideInstallupdated.pdf
 564 2013-08-08 15:03:28 <michagogo> On page 8 of the PDF, there are "A number of examples of incorrect usage" (translated)
 565 2013-08-08 15:04:33 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 566 2013-08-08 15:05:30 <michagogo> The first example is "<b><red>The card is not inserted into the reader.</b></red><br> Make sure <b><u>that the smartcard is inside the card reader.</b></u>"
 567 2013-08-08 15:07:06 abrkn\ has joined
 568 2013-08-08 15:07:38 <michagogo> I realize the guide is designed for anyone to be able to follow, and the "make sure the card's not backwards" part makes sense for that, but I find it hard to believe that it's actually neccesary to not just textually, but visually demonstrate the state of "the card is on the desk next to the reader" as being invalid.
 569 2013-08-08 15:08:08 <nsh> lol
 570 2013-08-08 15:08:26 <nsh> i dunno, everything these days is contactless, even my love-life
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 573 2013-08-08 15:12:40 <michagogo> nsh: Yeah, but when there's a gold-colored contact chip *on the card*, and you're given a reader with a slot for the card, it seems beyond obvious that you're not supposed to place the card on the desk several inches away from the reader.
 574 2013-08-08 15:12:57 <nsh> yeah, i'll give you that :)
 575 2013-08-08 15:13:14 <michagogo> Also: related: In the next couple months I may be getting a cryptographic smartcard
 576 2013-08-08 15:13:27 <petertodd> michagogo: from whome?
 577 2013-08-08 15:14:03 <michagogo> Since moin/piba are finally refreshing the Israeli Teudat Zehut (ID card, literally "certificate of identity")
 578 2013-08-08 15:14:26 <petertodd> Ah
 579 2013-08-08 15:14:34 <michagogo> It's been the same for decades and decades, and it's not very secure
 580 2013-08-08 15:14:52 <petertodd> I was gonna say, get yourself a PGP smartcard like the crypto-nerds, er I mean cool kids.
 581 2013-08-08 15:15:21 <petertodd> also this: https://www.crypto-stick.com/
 582 2013-08-08 15:15:40 <michagogo> Basically, when you go to the issuing office to get your TZ, they put the photo you give them in a device that trims it to a certain size, and they print out a piece of paper
 583 2013-08-08 15:16:32 <petertodd> Heh, makes you want to give them a futuristic bit of magical electronic paper instead of a photo...
 584 2013-08-08 15:16:51 <michagogo> They tear off one section of the paper (the main TZ), use a glue stick to affix your photo, put it in a lamination pouch printed with the state seal, and put it through a laminating machine.
 585 2013-08-08 15:17:09 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 586 2013-08-08 15:17:29 <michagogo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teudat_zehut
 587 2013-08-08 15:19:33 <michagogo> (the rest of the paper that prints out is used as the appendix, with your family details, previous names, address, etc.
 588 2013-08-08 15:20:15 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 589 2013-08-08 15:20:17 <petertodd> huh, now can you actually use this card to sign stuff?
 590 2013-08-08 15:21:01 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 591 2013-08-08 15:21:19 <michagogo> Yes.
 592 2013-08-08 15:21:40 agnostic98 has joined
 593 2013-08-08 15:21:42 <petertodd> Interesting, what standard?
 594 2013-08-08 15:22:15 <michagogo> I don't know if it's a standard, or some system developed for this specifically
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 596 2013-08-08 15:23:12 <petertodd> Hm, either way, add it to my mental list of places with signing-capable ID cards... they can be useful sometimes because it lets you do a "proof-of-human", forcing the government to issue fake certs to attack you.
 597 2013-08-08 15:25:31 <michagogo> Hmm?
 598 2013-08-08 15:25:54 <petertodd> sybil attacks
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 600 2013-08-08 15:28:21 <michagogo> Ah
 601 2013-08-08 15:28:43 Subo1978 has joined
 602 2013-08-08 15:28:52 <michagogo> So letting you know that the person you're talking to is an actual person, rather than some entity creating multiple personalities
 603 2013-08-08 15:29:02 <petertodd> Yup
 604 2013-08-08 15:29:36 <petertodd> IE I'd rather my bitcoin node not connect to 8 peers all run by the same person, and I don't care whether or not the fact that I am running a bitcoin node is public.
 605 2013-08-08 15:30:12 <Vinnie_win> hey what's up folks
 606 2013-08-08 15:30:46 <shesek> so if the government revokes your ID card, you wouldn't be able to connect to bitcoin nodes?
 607 2013-08-08 15:31:02 <petertodd> depends on how such a system is implemented
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 609 2013-08-08 15:31:26 <petertodd> probably not, because you'd assume that it's only to setup the link, but that's all implementation decisions
 610 2013-08-08 15:31:30 <shesek> having to rely on a central authority to provide ID cards seems to be somewhat against the idea of Bitcoin
 611 2013-08-08 15:31:56 <shesek> or at least, against the spirit of Bitcoin
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 613 2013-08-08 15:31:59 <petertodd> well sure, but then again we also rely on the central authority assigning IP addresses for anti-sybil - it'd be nice to at least be relying on more than one central authority
 614 2013-08-08 15:32:13 <petertodd> tl;dr: options are good
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 616 2013-08-08 15:33:08 <michagogo> petertodd: I thought there *are* more than one central authority?
 617 2013-08-08 15:33:16 <michagogo> Different regionals, no?
 618 2013-08-08 15:34:03 <petertodd> michagogo: well, sorta, kinda... the way we do it you could wind up with one central authority screwing you over - that might be worth thinking about carefully
 619 2013-08-08 15:34:12 <petertodd> it's very weak protection anyway
 620 2013-08-08 15:35:27 <michagogo> (to make sure I'm not misunderstood: that comment was referring to the IP addresses)
 621 2013-08-08 15:35:37 <michagogo> What one central authority is that?
 622 2013-08-08 15:36:47 <petertodd> Someone co-ordinates the actions of the regionals, but more importantly the way we do anti-sybil means we could allow 8 ips that are all under the control of one regional - but it's all moot because getting ip addresses from lots of different prefixes is really easy anyway.
 623 2013-08-08 15:37:16 <michagogo> Right.
 624 2013-08-08 15:37:29 <jgarzik>  I had a thought about getting bitcoind to check AS numbers and regions, not just IP addresses
 625 2013-08-08 15:37:31 <jgarzik> RIRs
 626 2013-08-08 15:37:47 <petertodd> jgarzik: same thing I'm thinking, but I dunno it's worth the trouble
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 628 2013-08-08 15:38:30 <petertodd> jgarzik: though if someone wrote a patch to do it, I'd ACK it
 629 2013-08-08 15:38:51 <jgarzik> hmm :)
 630 2013-08-08 15:39:16 <petertodd> heh
 631 2013-08-08 15:39:23 <jgarzik> Already looked into it, a bit.  The main annoyance is querying the databases, which are typically centralized and not suited for high volume queries
 632 2013-08-08 15:39:26 buZz has joined
 633 2013-08-08 15:39:28 <gmaxwell> an interesting to check is if the /16 check actually excludes more peer entropy than an ASN check would.
 634 2013-08-08 15:39:43 <jgarzik> could include an AS database with the software
 635 2013-08-08 15:39:48 <michagogo> How big is said DB?
 636 2013-08-08 15:39:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'd suggest just shipping with a snapshot.
 637 2013-08-08 15:39:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: probably the way to do - they don't like people querying the AS database...
 638 2013-08-08 15:40:00 <jgarzik> not too big, I think
 639 2013-08-08 15:40:03 <TD> petertodd: actually the BitSafe guy mentioned the getting-money-in problem at the may conference. so yeah it's something to think about.
 640 2013-08-08 15:40:12 <jgarzik> didn't measure, but I would guess it is less than 10MB
 641 2013-08-08 15:40:22 <petertodd> TD: oh good! it's a hard one
 642 2013-08-08 15:40:28 <michagogo> Anyway, g2g catch a bus to meet my family for dinner
 643 2013-08-08 15:40:30 <michagogo> Bbl
 644 2013-08-08 15:40:36 <TD> my suggestion was to have the devices sold via exchanges.
 645 2013-08-08 15:40:49 <TD> then use a reverse payment protocol with a trezor-specific pki
 646 2013-08-08 15:40:56 <petertodd> TD: I gotta admit the paper solution to it has a lot of plusses for real users
 647 2013-08-08 15:40:56 <jgarzik> heh
 648 2013-08-08 15:41:07 <TD> trezor gets more distribution and advertising to new users. exchanges can send to trezor securely. users can send from trezor to merchants securely. etc.
 649 2013-08-08 15:41:25 <TD> jgarzik: i'm getting the answer for you now.
 650 2013-08-08 15:41:32 <TD> jgarzik: (we use ip->asn database as part of a product i used to work on)
 651 2013-08-08 15:41:35 <DiabloD3> what the hell is a trezor
 652 2013-08-08 15:41:38 <petertodd> TD: trezor-specific is reasonable... though you want to be careful that the attacker can't just MITM the trezor - so anonymous trezor's are probably out :(
 653 2013-08-08 15:41:46 <jgarzik> TD, nice, thanks
 654 2013-08-08 15:43:04 <gmaxwell> It can probably be compressed a fair bit further if you do some things like include currently unannounced space in the same asn as it's neighbors in order to permit larger prefixes.
 655 2013-08-08 15:43:42 <jgarzik> it's a fun lookup-tree problem
 656 2013-08-08 15:44:04 <jgarzik> reminds me of how BIND stores its data, for speedy lookups (or used to)
 657 2013-08-08 15:46:02 <nsh> since CRIME/BEAST i'm wary of any efforts to add compression to a protocol where it's not absolutely necessary
 658 2013-08-08 15:46:09 <nsh> is that foolish?
 659 2013-08-08 15:46:42 <gmaxwell> ... nsh, what we're talking to is so completely unrelated I dunno where to start.
 660 2013-08-08 15:46:47 <petertodd> speaking of, so I'm thinking everything we do to solve maxconnections/DoS in general by prioritizing peers by "relay work" they do will make it easier to sybil the network, and I'm not seeing a clever way around that, OTOH it forces a sybiler to be useful...
 661 2013-08-08 15:46:51 <jgarzik> nsh, yes
 662 2013-08-08 15:47:04 <nsh> ok, thanks
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 664 2013-08-08 15:47:41 <TD> text file with the mapping of subnets to asns is about 2.3mb
 665 2013-08-08 15:47:41 <nsh> sometimes i just see words and thoughts occur to me, they're not always related or remotely sensible
 666 2013-08-08 15:47:43 <TD> not very large
 667 2013-08-08 15:47:46 <jgarzik> Make every P2P node mine a diff-1 share to a p2pool-like entity, to join the network
 668 2013-08-08 15:47:54 <jgarzik> must be a valid share for current block
 669 2013-08-08 15:48:08 <jgarzik> TD, great
 670 2013-08-08 15:48:09 <gmaxwell> petertodd: hm? your protection against sybil is outbound, maxconnection dos is inbound. You can treat them seperately.
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 672 2013-08-08 15:48:14 <jgarzik> TD, even smaller than I thought
 673 2013-08-08 15:48:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm also thinking sybil as in tracking where every transaction came from.
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 675 2013-08-08 15:49:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: But we can make that a lot less effective by not broadcasting every tx to every peer every time.
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 677 2013-08-08 15:49:48 <gmaxwell> petertodd: go look at how the broadcasting loging works. :P
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 679 2013-08-08 15:50:22 <petertodd> jgarzik: Too much asymytry between most nodes and people with mining gear. I worked out a memory-hard version - proof of memory posession - and even if you said every peer would have to dedicate 1GB that still winds up just costing ~$100,000 per year to make a connection to every node on a 10k node network.
 680 2013-08-08 15:50:44 * jgarzik was just joking ;p
 681 2013-08-08 15:50:51 <jgarzik> Not realistic at all for Android SPVs
 682 2013-08-08 15:51:08 <jgarzik> to pick up just one example
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 684 2013-08-08 15:53:05 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: http://thyme.apnic.net/current/data-raw-table
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 686 2013-08-08 15:53:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh good, I misread the trickle code as doing so for our own tx's, so that 1/4 is promising
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 689 2013-08-08 15:53:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: well... that's the funny thing, for sybil SPV gets a pass, because SPV nodes only see a subset of transactions, so their connection cost is thusly reduced :)
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 692 2013-08-08 15:58:29 <gmaxwell> I'd suggest squashing out any prefix smaller than /24 (just convert to a /24 if it is otherwise not covered by another prefix) then you can reduce the addresses to 4 bytes (cidr prefix and the mask length). Then just load the whole table into a dumb map and perform up to 24 tests of it to do the longest match match.
 693 2013-08-08 16:00:24 <gmaxwell> that list can be reduced further by removing routes that are completely contained in a larger covering route with the same asn.
 694 2013-08-08 16:00:36 <petertodd> TD: what's your guess on % of bits set in your average android users bloom filter?
 695 2013-08-08 16:01:09 <TD> er, i forgot. it's been months since i looked at that. i could figure it out. the filters have a very close to zero fp rate though, so the % should be low
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 697 2013-08-08 16:01:30 <petertodd> TD: ballpark 1%? 5%?
 698 2013-08-08 16:02:52 <TD> maybe 5? but i don't really know. it's easy to add a few log lines to find out given most users only have a handful of keys, tops, but i'm working on something else right now
 699 2013-08-08 16:04:02 <petertodd> k, close enough
 700 2013-08-08 16:07:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: so here's the thing: suppose I have n peers who I send tx's too, and every tx I reliably send to m peers, the if the attacker wants to observe where a tx came from with p probability, they have to make n/m * p connections to me, so for anti-sybil we want more peers, not less, provided the number of peers we do send a tx to immediately is fixed
 701 2013-08-08 16:09:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it also means with our peer connections, we should use bloom filtering so we can maintain a lot of peers, but without the traffic, and then send tx's to any of those peers, randomly chosen
 702 2013-08-08 16:09:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: heck, we could even pretend to be SPV nodes... though we would want to think hard about memory usage, IE balance it against memory usage for PoW
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 704 2013-08-08 16:11:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: the other thing would be to have the concept of a "send-only" peer - a peer who doesn't want any block data at all, but will send us tx's sometimes
 705 2013-08-08 16:11:53 <petertodd> point is, for the attacker, they care about listening reliably, not sending, and all this makes it more and more expensive for them to fill up a nodes peer slots that they would *send* txs too
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 708 2013-08-08 16:15:15 <k9quaint> I have decided to ignore all sentences that begin with "Suppose I have N..."
 709 2013-08-08 16:15:31 <k9quaint> it leads to nothing but trouble
 710 2013-08-08 16:15:34 <petertodd> k9quaint: I used lower-case n, it's totally different
 711 2013-08-08 16:16:03 <k9quaint> I pipe all of my IRC though toupper()
 712 2013-08-08 16:16:21 <k9quaint> it makes people seem more passionate about things
 713 2013-08-08 16:16:25 <petertodd> k9quaint: better yet - "they have to make $\frac{n}{m} p$
 714 2013-08-08 16:17:16 <k9quaint> I once gave my wife a perl script that printed an ascii necklace
 715 2013-08-08 16:17:38 <petertodd> k9quaint: heh, I once cut my gf a ring out of titanium on my lathe in front of her
 716 2013-08-08 16:17:51 <k9quaint> did you tell her it was titanium?
 717 2013-08-08 16:18:08 <petertodd> k9quaint: well she did ask what was the dreadful noise and smoke from
 718 2013-08-08 16:18:26 <k9quaint> "this block of platinum that I am carving you a ring out of dear!"
 719 2013-08-08 16:18:52 <petertodd> k9quaint: "uh-huh, I know how broke your artschool ass is"
 720 2013-08-08 16:20:06 <k9quaint> "thats why I have been working so long in my meth lab honey"
 721 2013-08-08 16:20:28 <k9quaint> then go all Walter White on her
 722 2013-08-08 16:20:30 <petertodd> "pff, you're not that cool"
 723 2013-08-08 16:20:39 <petertodd> "oh wait..."
 724 2013-08-08 16:21:07 <k9quaint> why are you dating smart women?
 725 2013-08-08 16:21:16 <k9quaint> houseplants are so much easier to care for
 726 2013-08-08 16:22:01 <petertodd> heh... well... I did get dumped in 2nd year after my girlfriend pointed out I had no life and missed her birthday because I had been up for 48 hours working
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 729 2013-08-08 16:23:04 <nsh> what, you can't reschedule birthdays around hackathons now?
 730 2013-08-08 16:23:10 <nsh> pfft
 731 2013-08-08 16:23:49 <petertodd> I suspect if it was a hackathon she would have been less pissed... nah, I had a insane client - longest continuous amount of time I've ever billed someone for
 732 2013-08-08 16:23:54 <k9quaint> petertodd: I always ran my own NTP server so I wouldn't have that problem
 733 2013-08-08 16:24:02 <petertodd> k9quaint: lol
 734 2013-08-08 16:25:05 <k9quaint> that and I have 2 reminders for our anniversary in my iphone
 735 2013-08-08 16:25:13 <k9quaint> 15 minutes and 5 minutes before ;)
 736 2013-08-08 16:25:41 <petertodd> anyway, more to the point, my clever idea doesn't work because your anti-sybil PoW has to be based essentially on probability of getting a tx, and it has to be specific to you and them, so your ability to send tx's out to a lot of peers is hampered and there's no asymetry in the attacker/defender relationship
 737 2013-08-08 16:25:51 <petertodd> k9quaint: ha, I gotta do that...
 738 2013-08-08 16:27:18 <petertodd> It's also interesting how, come to think of it, something like an identity card *also* doesn't work because nothing is stopping you from just using that one card with a tonne of peers - it really has to be a resource that is tied up per peer pair.
 739 2013-08-08 16:29:36 <k9quaint> web of trust protocols always rub me the wrong way a little
 740 2013-08-08 16:30:44 <petertodd> what, don't you want to feel connected to your fellow man?
 741 2013-08-08 16:31:05 <k9quaint> only in human centipede form
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 744 2013-08-08 16:31:25 <petertodd> heh
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 746 2013-08-08 16:36:13 <licnep> can anyone give me a summary of the 0.9 changes or is there something i can read about it?
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 755 2013-08-08 16:48:49 <gmaxwell> licnep: there are no "the 0.9 changes", 0.9 doesn't exist yet.
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 761 2013-08-08 16:50:54 <licnep> gmaxwell: yea, but i heard about the introduction of payment requests, signing, description, refund address... i wanted to know more about that
 762 2013-08-08 16:51:18 <gmaxwell> Then you're interested in the payment protocol stuff, not 0.9.
 763 2013-08-08 16:51:43 <licnep> oh, they told me it was 0.9 stuff, anyway yea that's what i was interested in, the 'payment protocol'
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 766 2013-08-08 16:53:58 <licnep> oh i found this, https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/4120476 i'll start therei guess
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 775 2013-08-08 17:03:11 <sipa> i'd also call it more a "0.9 addition" than a "0.9 change"
 776 2013-08-08 17:03:51 <sipa> making it sound like it's a change confuses people :)
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 778 2013-08-08 17:04:18 <licnep> mhm
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 781 2013-08-08 17:06:13 <sipa> it's just a new layer on top, to negotiate bitcoin transactions before they hit the network
 782 2013-08-08 17:06:51 <licnep> yea
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 858 2013-08-08 19:27:45 <gmaxwell> Why is someone expecting listransactions "account" to show them sendrawtransaction transactions?
 859 2013-08-08 19:30:32 <helo> it should if the sendrawtransaction tx was to/from "account" though, right?
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 865 2013-08-08 19:45:19 <gmaxwell> helo: how could it be from, it's a sendrawtransaction. To— yes, it could be to, if you were sending to yourself, but I don't think that isn't working.
 866 2013-08-08 19:45:50 <helo> valid point
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 893 2013-08-08 20:15:10 <Happzz> so how would i go about generating a new address to receive btcs at, without having the actual wallet and private key on the server that generates them
 894 2013-08-08 20:15:23 <Happzz> like some commerce system
 895 2013-08-08 20:15:46 <Happzz> i can only think of generating a bunch of addresses and then giving the server a list of addresses without the private keys
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 902 2013-08-08 20:22:02 <helo> type-2 deterministic wallets can allow calculating subsequent addresses without the any private keys
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 904 2013-08-08 20:22:57 <helo> but that requires something other than bitcoind
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 907 2013-08-08 20:27:27 <helo> with the payment protocol, the requests will be signed with the private keys sitting on the web server, right?
 908 2013-08-08 20:28:22 <helo> so if someone compromises the web server, they'd have access to the private keys, and would be able to forge payment requests to addresses they own?
 909 2013-08-08 20:28:27 <MC1984> thats sounds bad
 910 2013-08-08 20:29:02 <helo> i don't know much about web server setups, but all of the https setups i've done have the private keys sitting around on the server
 911 2013-08-08 20:29:58 <gavinandresen> sure.  If you're in the web server, you can simply serve up unsigned payment requests that send money to you, too
 912 2013-08-08 20:29:58 <helo> i guess the key used for https wouldn't have to be the same as the key used to sign the payment requests
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 915 2013-08-08 20:33:09 <gavinandresen> best practice would be for the web server to have a hardware security doo-hickey, so the web server could sign requests but getting the private keys requires physical access to the server
 916 2013-08-08 20:34:08 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: sounds like a feature request tressor!
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 944 2013-08-08 21:20:20 <Happzz> http or https is irrelevant
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 946 2013-08-08 21:20:30 <Happzz> i need to generate a bitcoin address to receive payments at
 947 2013-08-08 21:20:36 <Happzz> without having the private key around
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 949 2013-08-08 21:20:44 <Happzz> web servers get rooted too often
 950 2013-08-08 21:21:01 <MC1984> TPM?
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 952 2013-08-08 21:21:45 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, they dont support ecdsa keys in general
 953 2013-08-08 21:22:04 <MC1984> aw
 954 2013-08-08 21:22:09 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 955 2013-08-08 21:22:54 <Happzz> like, what do mtgox use to generate input addresses?
 956 2013-08-08 21:23:01 <Happzz> i can't imagine it's all on their webserver
 957 2013-08-08 21:23:24 <phantomcircuit> Happzz, they probably generate the addresses somewhere else and then transfer them to the database
 958 2013-08-08 21:23:38 <phantomcircuit> that is by far the easiest secure way of going about it
 959 2013-08-08 21:23:51 <phantomcircuit> importantly the security model is trivial to understand
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 963 2013-08-08 21:26:53 <harningt> Happzz: one method of generating independent payment addresses would be to use a deterministic wallet with support for public generation - ex: Electrum w/ its Master Public Key, or BIP 0032 with public derivation - that way, if the web server is hacked, all the attacker knows is the entire payment history... but no coin stolen
 964 2013-08-08 21:27:34 <harningt> now, you'd definitely want to generate a new one once hacked, that way you have privacy 'fixed' from then on...
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 967 2013-08-08 21:29:07 <harningt> another enhancement, if worried about possible attacks on deterministic wallet addresses, would be to have a watcher on those addresses that forwards to another address as soon as a payment went through, that way you divorce your payment infrastructure more strongly from your server (such as funnelling to a single address, but you could also have bitcoind generate new addresses for each transaction forwarded)
 968 2013-08-08 21:31:56 <Happzz> i do pay double the fees though that way
 969 2013-08-08 21:32:45 <Happzz> other than that.. a watcher might be a clever idea
 970 2013-08-08 21:33:05 <gmaxwell> harningt: that means keeping a signing key online, bad bad mojo.
 971 2013-08-08 21:33:09 <Happzz> after a second thought, a watcher could be tampered with to forward the payments elsewhere
 972 2013-08-08 21:33:15 <Happzz> and it'll take forever to notice
 973 2013-08-08 21:33:20 <gmaxwell> For now, just pregenerate addresses **done**.
 974 2013-08-08 21:33:23 <harningt> gmaxwell: no it doesn't you have a signing key on your own machine
 975 2013-08-08 21:33:33 <harningt> and you run the watcher yourself
 976 2013-08-08 21:33:46 <Happzz> so the best bet is to generate a bunch of addresses and just let the webserver pull an address from that list?
 977 2013-08-08 21:34:04 <gmaxwell> harningt: it means the a key controling live funds is online and connected to the internet, this is not a best practice. Plus you double your transaction load, ::yawn::.
 978 2013-08-08 21:34:11 <Happzz> is there a way to import a massive amount of addresses to bitcoin-qt or something?
 979 2013-08-08 21:34:24 <harningt> Happzz: that also works well, have a setup locally that asks your webserver if it needs addresses, and then can get it generated
 980 2013-08-08 21:34:51 <Happzz> i don't want my webserver to even know where the real money is placed
 981 2013-08-08 21:34:56 <harningt> gmaxwell: that is true, so you could omit the watcher tool
 982 2013-08-08 21:35:00 <Happzz> not to mention connectivity between the two
 983 2013-08-08 21:35:02 <gmaxwell> Happzz: there is an import RPC. though in this case you wouldn't need it.
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 985 2013-08-08 21:35:21 <harningt> ah, webserver not knowing where the money is,.... now that's tricky
 986 2013-08-08 21:35:33 <gmaxwell> No, thats not tricky.
 987 2013-08-08 21:35:37 <harningt> I guess you could have it written such that once it saw a deposit made, it deletes the address
 988 2013-08-08 21:35:57 <gmaxwell> Just @#$@# pregenerate a ton of keys and periodically refill it.
 989 2013-08-08 21:36:08 <harningt> but that means the server knows where the money is
 990 2013-08-08 21:36:28 <harningt> indirectly - someone compromising server sees the addresses where money was put in
 991 2013-08-08 21:36:32 <Happzz> harningt it knows the addresses. i have no issue with that.
 992 2013-08-08 21:36:37 <harningt> oh... ok
 993 2013-08-08 21:36:41 <Happzz> i don't want the webserver to know where the keys are
 994 2013-08-08 21:36:47 <harningt> thought from the webserver knowing where real money is place
 995 2013-08-08 21:36:48 <Happzz> that's what i mean "where the money is"
 996 2013-08-08 21:36:49 <harningt> got it
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1007 2013-08-08 22:01:00 <helo> how does one detect the case where an attacker has compromised a server and replaced your list of pregenerated addresses with his own?
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1012 2013-08-08 22:06:36 <helo> i guess periodic auditing bots that make purchases through the site and verify that the funds are recieved
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1018 2013-08-08 22:14:08 <nsh> hmm
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