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 35 2013-08-09 00:40:18 <sipa> wow, there's featherscoin.com, looking remarkably similar to feathercoin.com, but linking to a different download...
 36 2013-08-09 00:41:12 <c0rw1n> lulz
 37 2013-08-09 00:41:42 <c0rw1n> 'neone to wireshark that in a vm?
 38 2013-08-09 00:42:13 <c0rw1n> am too drunk and sleepy
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 40 2013-08-09 00:42:25 <c0rw1n> was my mom's bday
 41 2013-08-09 00:42:34 <c0rw1n> good good winez
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 47 2013-08-09 00:59:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: careful with the stuff sipa!
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156 2013-08-09 05:00:31 <jgarzik> Avalon physical security drama posted on www.avalon-asics.com
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158 2013-08-09 05:08:40 <gjs278> uhh so they're making more products
159 2013-08-09 05:08:41 <gjs278> ok cool
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164 2013-08-09 05:29:56 <alexwaters> does anyone know where I can find some python code that converts a private key to a WIF private key? I am about to dig through electrum, but it would be cool if someone knows where it lives
165 2013-08-09 05:31:41 <lianj> alexwaters: is ruby fine too?
166 2013-08-09 05:31:51 <alexwaters> that's fine
167 2013-08-09 05:31:57 <lianj> https://github.com/lian/bitcoin-ruby/blob/master/lib/bitcoin/key.rb#L158
168 2013-08-09 05:32:02 <alexwaters> lianj: thank yoy
169 2013-08-09 05:32:04 <alexwaters> lianj: thank you
170 2013-08-09 05:32:07 <Luke-Jr> alexwaters: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format has a simple overview
171 2013-08-09 05:33:51 <alexwaters> Luke-Jr: that step one where it says take a private key. Is there information on what requirements that private key must have? I'm assuming it has to be hex, no?
172 2013-08-09 05:34:12 <alexwaters> Luke-Jr: thank you btw
173 2013-08-09 05:34:23 <Luke-Jr> err, it has to be binary
174 2013-08-09 05:34:56 <Luke-Jr> beyond that, there are some limitations, but it can *mostly* be any binary data
175 2013-08-09 05:35:17 <Luke-Jr> the WIF exists because otherwise it couldn't be identified as such
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181 2013-08-09 05:41:29 <turboroot> alexwaters: if you still need an example, here's a direct example in golang https://gist.github.com/turboroot/6033908#file-bitcoingen-go-L84-L111
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183 2013-08-09 05:42:03 <alexwaters> oh cool, thanks turboroot
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187 2013-08-09 05:54:04 <lianj> turboroot: it skips compressed addresses?
188 2013-08-09 05:54:37 <turboroot> lianj: oh yeah
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190 2013-08-09 05:54:52 <lianj> just add a 0x01 at the end before checksuming
191 2013-08-09 05:54:54 <turboroot> lianj: just from a private key to wif
192 2013-08-09 05:55:44 <lianj> no, if you have a private key that is used as a compressed pubkey address, this wif would be broken
193 2013-08-09 05:57:26 <turboroot> lianj: the example is meant to take a private key directly from generation: https://gist.github.com/turboroot/6033908#file-bitcoingen-go-L16
194 2013-08-09 05:58:15 <lianj> ah ok
195 2013-08-09 05:58:59 <lianj> be nice on the network and show them how to generate compressed addresses :P
196 2013-08-09 05:59:02 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: nobody should be using uncompressed keys anymore though!
197 2013-08-09 05:59:33 <turboroot> i should go fix that then :)
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259 2013-08-09 07:57:23 <Vinnie_win> wuddup peeps
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264 2013-08-09 08:12:46 <alexwaters> in step 6 of http://gobittest.appspot.com/PrivateKey - I am getting a different step 7 with the same hex string. here is the code: http://pastie.org/8221059 - what I am doing incorrectly?
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269 2013-08-09 08:22:09 <alexwaters> oops I meant: http://pastie.org/8221074
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446 2013-08-09 14:03:27 <jgarzik> sipa, gavinandresen, gavinandresen_: is there any sort of canonical ordering of signatures, in a multi-sig transaction?  My "txtool" already does multi-sig P2SH transactions: https://github.com/jgarzik/txtool/blob/master/examples/multisig.txt
447 2013-08-09 14:03:42 <jgarzik> Now I'm working on combining signatures myself, rather than handing it off to bitcoind to do the work for me
448 2013-08-09 14:04:08 <jgarzik> CombineSignatures-area code in script.cpp seems to use a map, which would imply a sort
449 2013-08-09 14:04:22 <jgarzik> and therefore a predictable ordering of signatures
450 2013-08-09 14:06:56 * jgarzik also wonders if there is a canonical or preferred ordering of pubkeys/pubkeyhashes, in the script.  But that is a much less important question.
451 2013-08-09 14:07:10 <sipa> jgarzik: well, the assumption for any P2SH stuff is that you know the actual redeem script
452 2013-08-09 14:07:37 <jgarzik> sipa, …or can rebuild it :)
453 2013-08-09 14:08:14 <sipa> for simple p2sh types i suppose a canonical ordering makes sense
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455 2013-08-09 14:09:02 <sipa> but in settings where for example the keys are taken from BIP32 chains, you probably want the order of the chains fixed, rather than re-order the keys in every instance
456 2013-08-09 14:09:15 <jgarzik> yep
457 2013-08-09 14:09:21 <sipa> so in general, imho, it is the wallets responsability to maintain the ability to come up with the scripts
458 2013-08-09 14:10:36 <jgarzik> Yep.  Adding that to wally (SPV node.js client) and txtool (command line multi-party signature helper) right now.
459 2013-08-09 14:11:51 <jgarzik> For combining signatures (scriptSig), it is easiest to simply append new signatures onto the end of the list (after, perhaps, removing and replacing the P2SH blob) regardless of order
460 2013-08-09 14:11:56 <jgarzik> And just filter out dups
461 2013-08-09 14:12:16 <jgarzik> Presumably the wallet already knows the script, a la bitcoind
462 2013-08-09 14:12:47 <jgarzik> hmmm.  I guess a good check might be that all wallets in a multi-party transaction agreement that the P2SH in the scriptSig is correct.
463 2013-08-09 14:12:56 <jgarzik> *agree
464 2013-08-09 14:13:22 <jgarzik> (my stuff involves multiple humans, passing around partially signed transactions, and signing them)
465 2013-08-09 14:16:56 <TD> jgarzik: btw what's the rationale for writing wally?
466 2013-08-09 14:18:25 <jgarzik> TD, BitPay wanted a node.js SPV wallet. Not much more complex than that.  BitPay can use it as a reference implementation for future wallet features.
467 2013-08-09 14:18:42 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
468 2013-08-09 14:18:42 <jgarzik> TD, Internally, bitcoind's wallet isn't scaling
469 2013-08-09 14:18:58 <sipa> indeed, it doesn't scale
470 2013-08-09 14:19:05 <sipa> at least not with the current design, or interface
471 2013-08-09 14:20:05 <TD> jgarzik: that's circular. why does bitpay want one? :)
472 2013-08-09 14:20:33 <TD> jgarzik: sure, i was wondering bitcoind scalability could be improved instead, or you could improve bitcoinj. is there some super strong reason it _has_ to be node.js ?
473 2013-08-09 14:20:43 <TD> and won't that potentially lead to scaling issues of its own, due to the lack of real threading?
474 2013-08-09 14:21:44 <jgarzik> TD, BitPay likes node.js, you know how it goes ;p   "the lingua franca of the Internet" and all that
475 2013-08-09 14:21:46 <Ry4an> TD: because that's what the people doing the paying asked for.
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478 2013-08-09 14:22:19 <jgarzik> TD, RE scaling… it can do multi-process quite easily, so easily address if CPU usage becomes an issue
479 2013-08-09 14:22:26 <jgarzik> *addressed
480 2013-08-09 14:22:39 <jgarzik> node.js stuff also uses C++ modules in some circumstances
481 2013-08-09 14:22:57 <jgarzik> so ECDSA is pure compiled code
482 2013-08-09 14:23:29 hnz has joined
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484 2013-08-09 14:23:57 <TD> yeah, as long as you can parallelise everything without shared state (or by keeping it in c++) i guess it can work
485 2013-08-09 14:24:04 <helo> i hate that most programming jobs around here want experience with multi-threaded
486 2013-08-09 14:24:26 <TD> oh well. i was hoping you'd be able to focus on big upgrades of bitcoind.  a full spv wallet in javascript is quite a lot of work. i guess it will keep you busy for the forseeable future
487 2013-08-09 14:24:53 <TD> helo: why? that doesn't seem unreasonable.
488 2013-08-09 14:25:29 <jgarzik> TD, There remains a focus on the "sipa vision" of bitcoind, as a public blockchain server / border router
489 2013-08-09 14:25:34 <jgarzik> TD, Just not on the wallet side
490 2013-08-09 14:25:39 <TD> ok
491 2013-08-09 14:26:00 <TD> btw what's bitpay's plan for the payment protocol? any roadmap yet?
492 2013-08-09 14:26:01 * sipa sometimes does feel he's the only one actually working on that...
493 2013-08-09 14:26:52 <jgarzik> BitPay vision seems to be "enterprise wallet platform" (node-libcoin) + "p2p blockchain" (bitcoind)
494 2013-08-09 14:27:01 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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496 2013-08-09 14:27:30 <jgarzik> sipa, one option might be to add #ifdefs to the wallet code, just to have an early method of experimenting with a wallet-free bitcoind
497 2013-08-09 14:27:37 <helo> TD: multi-threading has its uses, but i've seen it misused more often than not
498 2013-08-09 14:27:46 <TD> that's too bad.
499 2013-08-09 14:27:48 <sipa> jgarzik: just don't load/register one in init.cpp; done
500 2013-08-09 14:28:00 <sipa> i doubt there are other issues
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502 2013-08-09 14:28:16 <sipa> right, many rpcs point to pwalletMain directly
503 2013-08-09 14:28:23 <sipa> the multiwallet stuff fixed that
504 2013-08-09 14:28:25 <jgarzik> sipa, probably a few assumptions of pwalletMain scattered
505 2013-08-09 14:28:26 <sipa> but...
506 2013-08-09 14:29:30 <jgarzik> sipa, I could add -nowallet, then
507 2013-08-09 14:29:45 <sipa> meh
508 2013-08-09 14:30:03 <jgarzik> true no-wallet operation would excise several RPCs altogether
509 2013-08-09 14:30:06 <sipa> multiwallet refactoring would lead to much cleaner code
510 2013-08-09 14:30:29 <sipa> even for the case where only 0 or 1 wallets are loaded
511 2013-08-09 14:30:35 <jgarzik> TheUni, (aside) how close to merging autotools?
512 2013-08-09 14:30:55 <jgarzik> sipa, what remains?  the internal multi-wallet stuff seems there
513 2013-08-09 14:31:09 <jgarzik> obviously no UI multi-wallet stuff exists (AFAIK)
514 2013-08-09 14:31:17 <sipa> CodeShark had a walletloader pull-request
515 2013-08-09 14:31:23 <sipa> that's pretty much what's needed i think
516 2013-08-09 14:31:46 <sipa> and you need some rpc redesign
517 2013-08-09 14:31:54 <sipa> as some rpcs implicitly assume a wallet
518 2013-08-09 14:32:02 <sipa> so those need to be moved to a wallet-specific addressing
519 2013-08-09 14:33:02 <sipa> reason i'm not immediately saying "just remove the wallet code altogether", is because i'd like to see at least bitcoin-qt (the released binary) move to an SPV wallet
520 2013-08-09 14:33:28 <sipa> once we have headers-first, i think SPV will be Really Easy(tm), as the actual wallet code doesn't rely on the blockchain being present
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523 2013-08-09 14:36:28 <jgarzik> headers-first will be nice for several reasons
524 2013-08-09 14:36:34 <sipa> yes
525 2013-08-09 14:36:52 <sipa> the sugar is faster downloads, but that's not actually why i want it :)
526 2013-08-09 14:37:07 <jgarzik> multi-peer downloads, even
527 2013-08-09 14:37:12 <sipa> read https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/527ac0aa599bca6d0c9ca19370e901ab61fabd08 :)
528 2013-08-09 14:38:59 <petertodd> jgarzik: by signatures do you actually mean pubkeys, or do you really mean the signatures themselves?
529 2013-08-09 14:39:12 <jgarzik> petertodd, the signatures themselves.  scriptSig
530 2013-08-09 14:39:27 <jgarzik> TD, BitPay wants to be first out of the gate supporting the payment protocol
531 2013-08-09 14:39:35 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, ordering them by pubkey order seems pretty logical to me, and canonical pubkey order sounds obvious
532 2013-08-09 14:39:35 <TD> super!
533 2013-08-09 14:39:44 <jgarzik> TD, definitely want to support it, in all its glory ;p
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535 2013-08-09 14:39:54 <sipa> \o/
536 2013-08-09 14:40:10 <TD> sipa: *competitive* SPV means using bloom filtering and possibly first-run checkpointing as well.
537 2013-08-09 14:40:23 <TD> jgarzik: spiffy. i guess you'll sign all requests as BitPay LLC?
538 2013-08-09 14:40:32 <jgarzik> petertodd, CombineMultisig() seems to have an order it prefers
539 2013-08-09 14:40:36 <sipa> TD: bloom filtering is already implemented :p
540 2013-08-09 14:40:37 <TD> it'd be cool if merchants were willing to share their SSL private keys, but i suspect many would balk at that
541 2013-08-09 14:40:55 <TD> sipa: you know what i mean :p
542 2013-08-09 14:40:57 <jgarzik> sipa, NIH ;p
543 2013-08-09 14:41:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: Oh, I just checked: EvalScript() mandates they be ordered by corresponding pubkey.
544 2013-08-09 14:41:30 <sipa> wut?
545 2013-08-09 14:41:33 <sipa> oh yes
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547 2013-08-09 14:41:40 <sipa> the signatures have to be in the order of the pubkeys
548 2013-08-09 14:41:45 <sipa> but the pubkeys have no enforced order
549 2013-08-09 14:42:14 <petertodd> sipa: yup, so order pubkeys lexigraphically and we're all good
550 2013-08-09 14:42:33 <sipa> TD: what i mean is that bitcoin-qt is a well-tested and trusted wallet client, and it's currently mostly hurt by the fact that it unnecessarily depends on a local full block chain
551 2013-08-09 14:42:38 * jgarzik wrote https://github.com/gasteve/node-libcoin/blob/master/Bloom.js a little while ago.  Still untested, probably broken due to JavaScript's complete inability to do math (a basic function of computers...)
552 2013-08-09 14:42:51 <sipa> TD: and i don't think the work to remove that dependency is much
553 2013-08-09 14:43:12 <jgarzik> the pubkeys have an order, once locked in via P2SH
554 2013-08-09 14:43:21 <TD> yeah
555 2013-08-09 14:43:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: oh, reminds me, I have bloom for python-bitcoinlib half-done too
556 2013-08-09 14:43:25 <sipa> petertodd: or order them lexicographically by the BIP32 chain fingerprint they are from?
557 2013-08-09 14:43:34 <sipa> petertodd: imho, this is all up to wallet implementations
558 2013-08-09 14:43:37 <jgarzik> petertodd, send a pull req :)
559 2013-08-09 14:43:46 <sipa> and for compatibility, they shouldn't require a specific ordering
560 2013-08-09 14:43:59 <sipa> as multisig inherently means wallets will need to cooperate
561 2013-08-09 14:44:02 <petertodd> jgarzik: yup, I'm telling you so I'll feel embarassed if I don't finish this weekend :)
562 2013-08-09 14:44:02 <TD> fwiw the micropayment channel code fixes the ordering as part of the protocol spec
563 2013-08-09 14:44:17 <jgarzik> sipa, yes
564 2013-08-09 14:44:32 <petertodd> sipa: Hmm... is there any reason not to always order them within a given P2SH lexigraphically? Like, when wouldn't that be convenient?
565 2013-08-09 14:44:57 <sipa> petertodd: as long as we're limited to M-of-N things, that's probably fine
566 2013-08-09 14:45:04 <sipa> i just don't see it generalizing further
567 2013-08-09 14:45:17 <sipa> and ultimately, you just need everyone involved to know the script
568 2013-08-09 14:45:29 <petertodd> sipa: Ah, right, I mean checkmultisig M-of-N only - advanced stuff like OTP's and master keys is a whole 'nother issue...
569 2013-08-09 14:45:35 <jgarzik> if there was a well known order
570 2013-08-09 14:45:39 <jgarzik> that makes it easy to recreate the script
571 2013-08-09 14:45:41 <sipa> which may mean more metadata that can't be reconstructed just from the pubkeys
572 2013-08-09 14:45:52 <sipa> so if you make createmultisigaddress order pubkeys, sure
573 2013-08-09 14:46:07 <sipa> as long as the addmultisigaddress or whatever works with any order
574 2013-08-09 14:46:31 <sipa> and that may mean that createmultisigaddress needs to reorder the input and echo it back, so that other involved parties may import it
575 2013-08-09 14:47:17 <petertodd> sipa: IMO at the RPC layer make the "cooked" versions - create/add multisig (especially add) follow the strict order and provide addredeemscript for the rare case where you have to manually do something odd.
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578 2013-08-09 14:47:56 <sipa> right, just don't require every wallet implementation to agree with your default ordering
579 2013-08-09 14:48:18 <sipa> jgarzik: not sure what you meant by NIH above, btw?
580 2013-08-09 14:48:31 <petertodd> sipa: well... if we don't mandate it, at least in the context of stuff that needs compatibility, then a default ordering just isn't as useful
581 2013-08-09 14:48:39 <sipa> petertodd: that's my point
582 2013-08-09 14:48:43 <petertodd> sipa: I'm not saying we make this a protocol rule with a soft-fork :)
583 2013-08-09 14:50:00 <petertodd> sipa: example where it matters: if you are abusing checkmultisig for timestamps, you want the digest last so you can use SHA256 midstates, but that's a way non-std use-case that has nothing to do with wallets
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585 2013-08-09 14:55:32 <MC1984> high IOPS is good for chain building right
586 2013-08-09 14:56:22 <petertodd> yup
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588 2013-08-09 14:56:29 <sipa> or high dbcache
589 2013-08-09 14:56:30 <MC1984> 100,000 is pretty high IOPS isnt it
590 2013-08-09 14:56:50 <MC1984> oh yes dbcache is even better
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592 2013-08-09 14:57:02 <petertodd> pretty good for storage yes
593 2013-08-09 14:57:15 <MC1984> the chain is written out sequentially from dbcache then
594 2013-08-09 14:57:34 <sipa> with a few gigs of dbcache, you only need to write to disk once really
595 2013-08-09 14:58:14 <MC1984> god the thing im most excited about is seeing how fast a IDB runs #suchanerd
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598 2013-08-09 15:06:14 <petertodd> jgarzik: So, does javascript have, say, a reasonably fast multiprecision integer library?
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629 2013-08-09 15:52:03 <helo> got a blockchain corruption error when i rebooted last night :(
630 2013-08-09 15:53:11 <helo> not sure exactly what git commit it's on though
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637 2013-08-09 16:09:02 <alexwaters> does anyone mind pointing out what Im doing wrong here: http://pastie.org/8221074 - I'm not getting the expected step 7 of private key to WIF
638 2013-08-09 16:09:16 handle_ is now known as handle
639 2013-08-09 16:09:29 <alexwaters> it's slightly different
640 2013-08-09 16:10:25 <jgarzik> petertodd, yes
641 2013-08-09 16:10:42 <jgarzik> petertodd, It's pretty easy to write C++ modules for node.js
642 2013-08-09 16:11:14 <jgarzik> sipa, NIH == not invented here == joking that I reimplemented bloom filter code all over again
643 2013-08-09 16:12:12 <lianj> alexwaters: bitcoin base58 uses/prepend leading zeros
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649 2013-08-09 16:22:00 <alexwaters> lianj: ahhh sweet, got it. sorry I didn't realize it was needed for WIF priv keys. thank you
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651 2013-08-09 16:25:49 <lianj> hm actually, maybe it doesn't
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681 2013-08-09 17:38:38 <jgarzik> hmmm
682 2013-08-09 17:39:11 <jgarzik> so signature order is dictated by pubkey order, for multisig?
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685 2013-08-09 17:40:16 <jgarzik> It would seem to make it difficult to know an insertion point for your signature, if you do not know all pubkeys -and- which signatures were provided by which pubkeys
686 2013-08-09 17:40:30 tSSt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
687 2013-08-09 17:41:23 <jgarzik> i.e. txtool is given a 5-of-7 multisig TX to sign.  it has 3 signatures.  Our pubkey is the 2nd in line.  where to insert the signature?
688 2013-08-09 17:42:16 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, gmaxwell ?
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694 2013-08-09 17:45:58 <sipa> jgarzik: the dummy you create has 7 ""-signatures from the start, you replace the ones corresponding with the pubkeys you know with the correct signature
695 2013-08-09 17:46:07 <sipa> jgarzik: and then before final broadcast, drop the remaining zeros
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698 2013-08-09 17:54:29 <jgarzik> sipa, ah!
699 2013-08-09 17:54:47 <jgarzik> sipa, tnx
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732 2013-08-09 19:18:46 <alexwaters> lianj: alright to PM?
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748 2013-08-09 19:59:34 <CodeShark> jgarzik: the problem you were speaking of sounds a lot like what I did here: https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses/tree/master/examples/txbuilder
749 2013-08-09 20:00:46 <CodeShark> what sipa proposed is actually exactly what I did :)
750 2013-08-09 20:01:35 <CodeShark> I created an "edit" format for a transaction which uses NO_OP place holders for missing signatures
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754 2013-08-09 20:04:18 <CodeShark> I'm now working on a way to interface a transaction store with a key chain
755 2013-08-09 20:04:32 <CodeShark> and on a protocol for requesting signatures from other nodes
756 2013-08-09 20:05:57 <CodeShark> I want to improve that TransactionBuilder class, though - to make it more generic and work more directly with the script
757 2013-08-09 20:06:14 <CodeShark> rather than just hardcoding a couple standard transaction types
758 2013-08-09 20:09:04 <CodeShark> the idea is to be able to provide an arbitrary txout to a key chain and have the key chain supply the complete redeem script for the input - and to have a signer which can sign the transaction once it's fully assembled
759 2013-08-09 20:11:28 <CodeShark> for full security, it would be necessary to provide not only the txout but the complete transaction containing the txout (so that the output amount can be verified)
760 2013-08-09 20:12:14 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
761 2013-08-09 20:12:40 <CodeShark> so something like getRedeemScript(fulltx, outindex)
762 2013-08-09 20:12:57 <CodeShark> the redeemscript would just have NO_OPS for signature placeholders
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766 2013-08-09 20:14:23 <CodeShark> although ideally I'd like the missing signature placeholders directly incorporated into the scripting language itself
767 2013-08-09 20:14:57 <CodeShark> and the output amounts incorporated into the hash that ultimately gets signed
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770 2013-08-09 20:19:03 <CodeShark> actually, more correct would probably be getScriptSig
771 2013-08-09 20:19:42 <CodeShark> since redeemscript in the literature only refers to the part of scriptsig that gets popped off the stack per BIP0016
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779 2013-08-09 20:36:03 <devrandom> if anybody is interested, I have a pull request for electrum that integrates offline+multisig+HD
780 2013-08-09 20:36:06 <devrandom> https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/pull/266
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793 2013-08-09 20:55:40 <TD> devrandom: cool!
794 2013-08-09 20:56:30 * TD wishes that there was a decent block explorer tool out there
795 2013-08-09 20:59:57 <CodeShark> what features would you like it to have?
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797 2013-08-09 21:03:06 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: integrated into your own full node
798 2013-08-09 21:03:39 <Luke-Jr> other than that, it shouldn't misrepresent how Bitcoin works :p
799 2013-08-09 21:04:03 <CodeShark> the first step would probably be to abstract the storage engine from the validation/relay engine so that different storage engines can be plugged in with different index options
800 2013-08-09 21:04:41 <Luke-Jr> I don't see why that's necessary.
801 2013-08-09 21:04:57 <Luke-Jr> I think with sipa's address index, no more indexes are necessary.
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804 2013-08-09 21:05:37 <CodeShark> I've found use for other indices - for instance, tracking addresses that are known to be in the same wallet
805 2013-08-09 21:06:44 <CodeShark> and there could conceivably be other useful indices. I've had use for quick searches by script pattern matches, for instance
806 2013-08-09 21:07:02 <CodeShark> when trying to find particular types of transactions
807 2013-08-09 21:07:30 <CodeShark> or searches by transactions containing a minimum number of inputs or outputs
808 2013-08-09 21:07:56 <CodeShark> anyhow, bitcoind should be a lean and mean verification/relay engine
809 2013-08-09 21:08:02 <CodeShark> and should NOT focus on bloated storage
810 2013-08-09 21:08:50 <CodeShark> it should use a storage engine optimized for size and speed for only the queries necessary to perform full validation
811 2013-08-09 21:09:36 <CodeShark> by abstracting the storage engine it would be possible to hook up fatter backends for block explorer type apps
812 2013-08-09 21:10:11 <CodeShark> which could provide much fatter interfaces, like SQL or whatever
813 2013-08-09 21:10:16 <gmaxwell> sure, such as abe, which now needs like 200gb disk space and 16 gb ram to load its data in a month or so. block explorers for everyone!
814 2013-08-09 21:10:58 <CodeShark> apps like abe are far more optimized for searches than for insertions
815 2013-08-09 21:11:05 <CodeShark> insertions are SLOOOOOWWW
816 2013-08-09 21:12:01 <CodeShark> I also have an SQL block explorer I wrote - and yes, it takes forever to sync from scratch
817 2013-08-09 21:13:36 <CodeShark> but it's still possible in principle to have a more efficient storage engine that still provides an SQL interface
818 2013-08-09 21:13:40 <gmaxwell> "forever to sync from scratch" basically means "writing software for centeralized websites for free", if thats your thing, knock yourself out... but ecosystem wise I think we generally need less dependance on things like that.
819 2013-08-09 21:14:11 <gmaxwell> yea, sure, indeed. And what will you do a decade from now after you're done reinventing RDBMSs? :P
820 2013-08-09 21:14:17 <CodeShark> lol
821 2013-08-09 21:14:28 <CodeShark> that type of app is not currently my focus anymore :p
822 2013-08-09 21:14:50 <CodeShark> I've actually gone the opposite direction - trying to identify the minimal amount of data required to process transactions securely
823 2013-08-09 21:15:29 <CodeShark> barebones SPV
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834 2013-08-09 21:40:22 <TD> Luke-Jr: a real-time view of pending transactions and their position inside the next block
835 2013-08-09 21:40:36 <TD> Luke-Jr: amongst other things. also ability to see all blocks in a timeline with their sizes
836 2013-08-09 21:40:39 <Luke-Jr> TD: bitcoind has that.. <.<
837 2013-08-09 21:40:52 <Luke-Jr> TD: but you can only know what position *you'd* give them
838 2013-08-09 21:40:56 <TD> sure
839 2013-08-09 21:40:57 <Luke-Jr> which is all that's possible anyway
840 2013-08-09 21:41:04 <Luke-Jr> so, not very useful to non-miners
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866 2013-08-09 22:31:41 <CodeShark> argh! anyone here ever have any success using websocketpp on OS X?
867 2013-08-09 22:34:35 <c0rw1n> was browserver using websocket? if so, yes
868 2013-08-09 22:34:54 <CodeShark> were you using C++11?
869 2013-08-09 22:35:06 <c0rw1n> no, that's all web
870 2013-08-09 22:35:14 <c0rw1n> not my code mind you
871 2013-08-09 22:35:38 <CodeShark> I'm talking specifically about the C++ websocketpp library: https://github.com/zaphoyd/websocketpp
872 2013-08-09 22:35:53 <c0rw1n> ah ok no i didn't try that i know
873 2013-08-09 22:36:34 <CodeShark> having problems with throw specifiers
874 2013-08-09 22:37:04 <CodeShark> also having problems with throw specifiers in boost
875 2013-08-09 22:37:52 <c0rw1n> i really can't help you. those kinda things are why i don't c++
876 2013-08-09 22:38:18 <c0rw1n> abstruse "errything is a type" weird academically-perfect language
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879 2013-08-09 22:40:17 <CodeShark> academically-perfect language would be more like LISP
880 2013-08-09 22:40:26 <CodeShark> C++ is hardly academically perfect :p
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882 2013-08-09 22:40:57 <CodeShark> it's full of special constructs added just to make specific engineering tasks simpler
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884 2013-08-09 22:42:15 <CodeShark> full of ad-hoc features, supporting a vast number of conflicting idioms
885 2013-08-09 22:42:25 <CodeShark> *mutually conflicting
886 2013-08-09 22:42:39 <CodeShark> and styles
887 2013-08-09 22:43:08 <CodeShark> an academically perfect language is minimal and regular
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909 2013-08-09 23:15:14 <HaltingState> Is anyone here going to burning man?
910 2013-08-09 23:17:46 <TheLordOfTime> HaltingState:  don't super crosspost
911 2013-08-09 23:27:13 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2658  any thoughts?  I hope I didn't unduly slow this down with the problem I saw earlier but now am unable to reproduce.  It seems that this patch is capable of reporting false positives and could scare users unnecessarily.
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916 2013-08-09 23:31:38 <sipa> warren: i'll comment on the pr still, but i'd like to delay that until after headers-first sync (i'm very close to a fully-featured implementation)
917 2013-08-09 23:32:20 <sipa> as it means you always have the correct view of the block chain, even without having the relevant blocks, this becomes a lot more robust
918 2013-08-09 23:33:42 <warren> sipa: nice!
919 2013-08-09 23:34:02 <gmaxwell> wrt headers first sync, I think that should be integrated sooner rather than later, as it will take some time pounding on it to hammer out any corner case issues.
920 2013-08-09 23:34:22 <sipa> well, right now, reindex segfaults :p
921 2013-08-09 23:34:32 <warren> pounding
922 2013-08-09 23:34:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: right, well, as soon as it stops reliably failing for you. :)
923 2013-08-09 23:35:07 <warren> I'm not sure *how* I saw scary fork warnings during -reindex twice in a row.  that's supposed to fix corrupt chain state right?
924 2013-08-09 23:35:44 <sipa> was that with that chain split detect code merged in?
925 2013-08-09 23:36:35 <warren> yes, we tested litecoin-0.8.x with those three patches added for about a 1 month, and pulled it after I saw it print scary things in debug.log during -reindex.  I didn't have time to investigate back then, and now I can't reproduce the problem.
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