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 20 2013-08-10 00:24:04 <phantomcircuit> oh boy
 21 2013-08-10 00:24:20 <phantomcircuit> someone sent tons of tiny transfers to the intersango hotwallet
 22 2013-08-10 00:24:21 <phantomcircuit> fun
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 25 2013-08-10 00:30:05 <phantomcircuit> i should not have tried to open this wallet in bitcoin-qt
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 66 2013-08-10 01:14:35 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, apparently this wallet is large enough that new blocks are causing a bdb crash
 67 2013-08-10 01:14:36 <phantomcircuit> fun
 68 2013-08-10 01:14:51 <phantomcircuit> *** System error: CDB() : can't open database file wallet.dat, error -30974
 69 2013-08-10 01:17:56 <gmaxwell> /usr/include/libdb/db.h:#define DB_REP_WOULDROLLBACK    (-30974)/* UNDOC: rollback inhibited by app. */
 70 2013-08-10 01:18:54 <gmaxwell> I ... am vaguely guessing thats saying that the undo data and the database itself are inconsistent?
 71 2013-08-10 01:19:00 <phantomcircuit> #define DB_RUNRECOVERY          (-30974)/* Panic return. */
 72 2013-08-10 01:19:16 <phantomcircuit> i guess the error numbers are version dependent
 73 2013-08-10 01:19:21 <phantomcircuit> this is using db4.8
 74 2013-08-10 01:19:25 <gmaxwell> yea, crazy I see that.
 75 2013-08-10 01:19:55 <phantomcircuit> anyways opening the wallet again everything is fine
 76 2013-08-10 01:20:08 <phantomcircuit> so im thinking it's dying trying to change too many things or something
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 79 2013-08-10 01:20:25 <phantomcircuit> i guess it's time to export all the keys and start over
 80 2013-08-10 01:21:25 <phantomcircuit> how does someone not see the correlation???
 81 2013-08-10 01:21:40 <phantomcircuit> er
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 92 2013-08-10 01:39:27 <alexwaters> the first time I call generate_btc_address(0x552219f09e1b3537df689113be859f6bd0e57c403bb7ac10fd4ec7c07b378f01) it generates the expected addr_58, but any additional calls return a different addr_58. I'm assuming because it is not resetting the curve on additional calls. Can anyone confirm that that's the reason? http://pastie.org/8223335
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 96 2013-08-10 01:46:02 <gmaxwell> resetting the curve?!
 97 2013-08-10 01:46:46 <alexwaters> gmaxwell: i have no idea what i'm doing, lol. I'm assuming it's doing something with a stored value instead of reinitializing every time the function is run
 98 2013-08-10 01:47:21 <alexwaters> gmaxwell: i don't want that function to have a state, but it seems to and I don't know why
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101 2013-08-10 01:50:28 <alexwaters> ah never mind, the ripehash had to be localized. got it :)
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668 2013-08-10 22:31:23 <nsh> gmaxwell, is this relevant to bitcoin: http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2013-08-10-the-factoring-cryptopocalypse.html
669 2013-08-10 22:31:33 <nsh> --
670 2013-08-10 22:31:35 <nsh> When should we worry? If there's any hint of this work being extended to apply to prime fields. The discrete logarithm problem over prime fields is very closely related to the problem of integer factorization — there's a long history of improvements in one translating directly to improvements in the other. (In fact, I'd say DLP over prime fields is more closely related to factoring than it is to DLP over small-characteristic fields.) In the mean time, I se
671 2013-08-10 22:31:35 <nsh> e no reason to panic. If you want to switch over to using Elliptic curves, go ahead; but my earlier remarks still apply there: Because ECC is more complex than RSA, it's easier to make implementation errors and/or introduce side channels. I would add one extra caveat however: If you do decide to use ECC, do it over a prime field. While I've never been fond of ECC over small-characterstic (aka. binary) fields, this latest attack provides all the more reason t
672 2013-08-10 22:31:35 <nsh> o be cautious about them: It's the inherent "structure" which makes them scary, and the work of Joux et al. just reinforces that such structure can be exploited.
673 2013-08-10 22:31:36 <nsh> -- ibid.
674 2013-08-10 22:31:46 <gmaxwell> We do not use a characteristic two field.
675 2013-08-10 22:31:51 <gmaxwell> We use a prime field.
676 2013-08-10 22:31:53 <nsh> right
677 2013-08-10 22:31:54 <nsh> thanks
678 2013-08-10 22:32:02 <gmaxwell> This is also what saves us from most ECC patents too.
679 2013-08-10 22:32:07 <nsh> gotcha
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681 2013-08-10 22:32:43 <gmaxwell> Though even that.. meh,  DLP on highly composite fields (e.g. ones with many 'prime') points has been insecure for a long time. I'm not even especially worried about characteristic 2 fields.
682 2013-08-10 22:33:06 <nsh> why's that?
683 2013-08-10 22:33:16 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
684 2013-08-10 22:33:21 * nsh prepares for whooshing noises above his head
685 2013-08-10 22:34:09 <gmaxwell> Becuase none of the fast techniques are especially fast unless you have _many_ factor bases. e.g. you only get the major sub exponential times as the number of prime points tends to infinity. But we'll see.
686 2013-08-10 22:34:45 <gmaxwell> I'm more annoyed by all the applications which are not space and computation constrained (e.g. things like GPG, not bitcoin) that don't belt-and-suspenders their ECC.
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688 2013-08-10 22:34:49 <gmaxwell> E.g. PGP
689 2013-08-10 22:35:25 <gmaxwell> 's ECC support is limited to, at most, using the NIST 521 bit field.
690 2013-08-10 22:36:14 <gmaxwell> Vs it could do everything using both the NIST 521 bit and a P1024 random field, and still have keys much smaller than 2048 bit RSA. I'd feel much safer with that.
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692 2013-08-10 22:36:50 <nsh> what would the overhead-factor be for doing that double security?
693 2013-08-10 22:36:51 <gmaxwell> When you know your crypto is almost certantly sub-exponential it makes sense to be double paranoid.
694 2013-08-10 22:37:01 <nsh> that makes sense
695 2013-08-10 22:37:36 * nsh muses
696 2013-08-10 22:37:41 <gmaxwell> nsh: just the time and size of the extra keys. If it used point compression adding an extra P1024 point would just add ~1024 bits to every key and encrypted message... and be perhaps 4x slower.
697 2013-08-10 22:38:01 <gmaxwell> but, for GPG, who gives a hoot? it could be 50x slower without the user noticing.
698 2013-08-10 22:38:17 <nsh> right, message composition is already orders longer than encryption
699 2013-08-10 22:38:22 <nsh> and email isn't expected to be instantaneous
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701 2013-08-10 22:39:14 <sipa> it would add 2048 to signatures
702 2013-08-10 22:39:18 <nsh> so just by adding a point to the existing curve that doesn't follow the same relationship, you increase the security by that degree?
703 2013-08-10 22:39:24 <sipa> and 1024 to keys
704 2013-08-10 22:39:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: indeed.
705 2013-08-10 22:39:58 <gmaxwell> We know this is viable in any case, since 4096 bit RSA is now considered a recommended practice.
706 2013-08-10 22:40:07 <sipa> nsh: i believe gmaxwell is talking about a completely unrelated field/curve/gemerator
707 2013-08-10 22:40:35 <sipa> let's do 4096 bit ECC :p
708 2013-08-10 22:40:46 <gmaxwell> Right, I'd make it an unrelated field. That would be part of the point. It's _possible_ for there to be field specific weaknesses and precomputation attacks.
709 2013-08-10 22:40:46 <nsh> hmm, ok
710 2013-08-10 22:41:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: at some point I'd rather have more curves than a bigger one. Once the curve is big enough that you're _well_ beyond even any speculative attack, having a seperate field to close of field specific attacks/optimizations is probably better.
711 2013-08-10 22:42:09 <sipa> right, agree
712 2013-08-10 22:42:39 <sipa> and 521 bit, if unbroken, provides the sa,me security as 256-bit symmtretic crypto
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714 2013-08-10 22:42:58 <sipa> so there shouldn't be any reason to go higher unless QC
715 2013-08-10 22:43:06 <gmaxwell> Or alternatively, for something like GPG I could instead suggest lattice based + ecc, except the key sizes...
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724 2013-08-10 23:24:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, theoretically keysize shouldn't matter with keyservers
725 2013-08-10 23:24:10 <phantomcircuit> except well people still use shortkey ids
726 2013-08-10 23:24:12 <phantomcircuit> :/
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728 2013-08-10 23:55:07 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: key sizes do matter, they may not matter _much_ but they still have some consequence. E.g. mailing someone needing to fetch a 4mb key (to carry its self and its signatures) would kinda suck.
729 2013-08-10 23:55:48 <gmaxwell> or if you needed 500mb of diskspace to store the keys of everyone you interacted with, or all the keys of the maintainers of your OS, etc.
730 2013-08-10 23:56:32 * Luke-Jr coughs at bitcoin
731 2013-08-10 23:57:03 <gmaxwell> well, this is why key sizes are very important in bitcoin... but less important in GPG, though still not unimportant.
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