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50 2013-08-12 01:56:57 <jgarzik> yword
51 2013-08-12 01:57:31 <Luke-Jr> ?
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54 2013-08-12 02:01:02 <rethaw> keyword
55 2013-08-12 02:03:13 <gmaxwell> keyscore?
56 2013-08-12 02:03:39 <Cusipzzz> XKeyscore?
57 2013-08-12 02:04:44 <jgarzik> whoops
58 2013-08-12 02:04:50 <jgarzik> That should have been "word"
59 2013-08-12 02:05:00 <jgarzik> A prototypical American greeting from the 1990s
60 2013-08-12 02:05:31 <gmaxwell> yo daug. I put a 1990s greeting in your 1990s communications medium.
61 2013-08-12 02:05:33 <jgarzik> So Electrum gets stuck on block 251526, eh?
62 2013-08-12 02:05:40 <gavinandresen> howdy!
63 2013-08-12 02:05:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: IRC was released in 1989 =P
64 2013-08-12 02:06:14 <gavinandresen> Anybody figured out which transaction in block 251526 is the offender?
65 2013-08-12 02:06:18 <gmaxwell> (citation for jgarzik's comment: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=271761.new )
66 2013-08-12 02:07:10 <gmaxwell> the smoking gun is that exception, I guess.
67 2013-08-12 02:07:38 <gmaxwell> someone asked me earlier about an odd transaction that I could have seen triggering that, lemme see if it's in my shell history.
68 2013-08-12 02:08:45 <gmaxwell> hm, no. that was 5a5d8c82a9d32ad2bd8674a20b25d06cd9ab7f206115fc7d55cddd5747feccc0 which was the wrong block.
69 2013-08-12 02:10:27 <gavinandresen> Looking at the patch that fixes it: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum-server/commit/c1d96aba96296bda1e6b792cb3762754613fa3d0 ⦠I'm guessing the Electrum server deserializes unspent scriptPubKeys ?
70 2013-08-12 02:11:15 <gavinandresen> ⦠and there is an unspendable scriptPubKey in the blockâ¦.
71 2013-08-12 02:11:23 <gavinandresen> (but I haven't taken the time to look)
72 2013-08-12 02:11:52 imsaguy has quit ()
73 2013-08-12 02:12:31 <jgarzik> and as a kernel programmer, this SecureRandom thing makes me want to yell at somebody
74 2013-08-12 02:12:47 <gmaxwell> (for tx in ` bd getblock 00000000000000123fdfd8cc207b3364d2dbdf183a730a8850b25856dea8d255 | grep ' "' |cut -d'"' -f2` ; do bd getrawtransaction $tx 1 ; done | grep asm) | sed -re 's/[0-9a-f]{8,}//g'| sort -n
75 2013-08-12 02:12:52 <jgarzik> SecureRandom is... not secure. One possible fix... use the damn kernel facility that has always been there.
76 2013-08-12 02:12:56 <jgarzik> *facepalm*
77 2013-08-12 02:13:05 <gmaxwell> "asm" : "OP_INVALIDOPCODE",
78 2013-08-12 02:13:06 <gmaxwell> "asm" : "OP_RETURN ",
79 2013-08-12 02:13:17 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: SecureRandom uses the kernel facility, but craps on it.
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81 2013-08-12 02:13:30 <gmaxwell> (*maybe)
82 2013-08-12 02:13:35 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: mmm, I woulda done something like that myself but I'm in the middle of trying to debug chainstate leveldb corruption on this machine....
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84 2013-08-12 02:14:11 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea, 8a68c461a2473653fe0add786f0ca6ebb99b257286166dfb00707be24716af3a
85 2013-08-12 02:14:46 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, you too ? BitPay is all-OSX, and a couple colleagues also reported Bitcoin-Qt-on-OSX corruption.
86 2013-08-12 02:15:08 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yup, me too. There is definitely a bug⦠somewhere....
87 2013-08-12 02:15:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, as TD(?) guessed, it seems to coincide with sleep/resume while Bitcoin-QT is running.
88 2013-08-12 02:15:28 <gmaxwell> lots and lots of reports on OSX.
89 2013-08-12 02:15:29 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, if not a cause, sleep/resume exacerbates the problem
90 2013-08-12 02:15:44 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: hmm. Not sure this machine ever sleeps, it's an 8-core desktop
91 2013-08-12 02:15:53 <gmaxwell> the OP_RETURN output in that block is bc00cc28c9be4f15cf5fa4b93c79c36aefd5bcc54f54e689017d528333b6fd7b
92 2013-08-12 02:16:36 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, have rotational storage media? are the platters ever spun down?
93 2013-08-12 02:16:54 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: nope, blockchain is stored on an SSD
94 2013-08-12 02:17:14 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, we are all-SSD shop here, and we see it.
95 2013-08-12 02:17:25 <gavinandresen> I did have another corruption (that I've saved) where I was running on a USB-attached spinning disk
96 2013-08-12 02:17:49 <jgarzik> it's worth a tech note or something, IMO, to let people know this is going on
97 2013-08-12 02:18:09 <gavinandresen> agreed. Today would be a bad day to get any attention, though
98 2013-08-12 02:18:13 <jgarzik> thoughts: fiddle with mmap/sync ifdefs and options
99 2013-08-12 02:18:16 <jgarzik> agreed
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101 2013-08-12 02:18:48 <gmaxwell> It's gone on so long and been reported so much, I'm not sure that delaying another week to actually get some idea of the cause would be bad. It's good to hear that someone has actual captures of the bad state.
102 2013-08-12 02:19:25 <jgarzik> gut feeling: leveldb and not bitcoin
103 2013-08-12 02:19:29 <gavinandresen> The particular error I'm seeing in this case is: "Corruption: missing start of fragmented record(2)"
104 2013-08-12 02:19:49 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: gavinandresen: have you ever seen the uncorruption behavior that we've had a couple reports of? e.g. after a reboot it just worked?
105 2013-08-12 02:20:11 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'd put money on that (or at least leveldb or OS and not bitcoin), but â still our problem. :)
106 2013-08-12 02:20:14 <runeks> jgarzik: Would you happen to know why python-bitcoinrpc would leave its connections in a TIME_WAIT state? I'm querying bitcoind for basically all the transactions in the block chain, rapidly, one after another. After a while it chokes with a 'Cannot assign requested address' error and subsequently CannotSendRequest() errors. netstat tells me there are 22812 connections to 127.0.0.1 in the TIME_WAIT state.
107 2013-08-12 02:20:19 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, do you use the OSX disk encryption feature? we do.
108 2013-08-12 02:20:25 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I haven't seen it fix itself, but I haven't rebooted yet....
109 2013-08-12 02:20:31 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: no
110 2013-08-12 02:20:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, certainly
111 2013-08-12 02:22:43 <jgarzik> (RE still our problem)
112 2013-08-12 02:23:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, haven't seen any uncorruption behavior @ BitPay. Only heard of it via #bitcoin-dev discussion
113 2013-08-12 02:23:08 <gavinandresen> ⦠lunch time. I'll copy the corrupt chainstate, then reboot after eating and see if the problem magically fixes itself.
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117 2013-08-12 02:35:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc leveldb handles partial records in it's log quite poorly
118 2013-08-12 02:35:27 <phantomcircuit> i would say the journal format is pretty dangerous actually
119 2013-08-12 02:36:05 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, jgarzik ^
120 2013-08-12 02:37:32 <toffoo> gavinandresen jgarzik this is the first concrete sign I've seen that the OSX corruption issues may be addressed sometime soon, thanks for your attention!
121 2013-08-12 02:38:05 <toffoo> I've made a bit of noise about it myself, please let me know if there's anything I can do to help find/squash whatever bug it is
122 2013-08-12 02:38:08 <phantomcircuit> toffoo, so far everybody who has reported a problem had already done a -reindex
123 2013-08-12 02:38:12 <phantomcircuit> at least that im aware of
124 2013-08-12 02:38:19 <phantomcircuit> which makes it pretty hard to fix
125 2013-08-12 02:38:22 <toffoo> I downgraded to v0.7.2 long ago
126 2013-08-12 02:38:45 <toffoo> no v0.8.x release worked for more than a few hours for me,
127 2013-08-12 02:38:58 <jgarzik> oh, random disclosure, bought some ASICMINER shares
128 2013-08-12 02:39:06 <toffoo> and I have too much dinero tied up in BTC these days to have my client die on me several times a day
129 2013-08-12 02:39:20 <jgarzik> ridiculously overpriced, but whatever
130 2013-08-12 02:40:07 <toffoo> jgarzik doesn't sound like a bad idea. a -PT or direct? I hope you got some below 3.75 or so!
131 2013-08-12 02:40:27 <jgarzik> direct
132 2013-08-12 02:40:31 <jgarzik> no, ~4, alas
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134 2013-08-12 02:41:18 <toffoo> I have plenty (too many) but was thinking of dipping into more when I saw it dip below 4 again
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139 2013-08-12 02:52:07 <runeks> I sold my ASICMiner shares and bought some PUT options on btct.co. I think they need to go down in price. Especially with Bitfury coming soon.
140 2013-08-12 02:53:00 <runeks> jgarzik: By the way, would you happen to know why bitcoinrpc doesn't reuse its connections? I can see with Wireshark that it creates a new connection for every request, eventually running out of ports.
141 2013-08-12 02:56:18 <jgarzik> runeks, not offhand, no
142 2013-08-12 02:56:37 <runeks> OK. I'll try to investigate further.
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157 2013-08-12 03:19:25 <runeks> jgarzik: I have fixed the problem, but for some strange reason it actually makes it slower... 26 seconds for all the transactions in 10 blocks when reusing the connection vs 10 seconds when not reusing it :\
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193 2013-08-12 05:47:10 <Luke-Jr> hmm, wonderful: BW4A fails to send my coins
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195 2013-08-12 05:51:14 <gmaxwell> BW4A?
196 2013-08-12 05:54:18 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_'s client
197 2013-08-12 05:54:30 <Luke-Jr> which also needs a real name
198 2013-08-12 05:54:32 <Luke-Jr> -.-
199 2013-08-12 05:55:25 <warren> Luke-Jr: you just did name it
200 2013-08-12 05:55:51 <gmaxwell> ah, you confused me, BW4A sounded like a pretty random string ... so obviously you couldn't be referring to the bitcoin wallet for android.
201 2013-08-12 05:55:54 <gmaxwell> :P
202 2013-08-12 05:56:45 <gmaxwell> hm. contemplates disabling leveldb mmap on osx.
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210 2013-08-12 06:06:47 <runeks> ;;later tell jgarzik I don't know why, but your python-bitcoinrpc is almost 3 times slower than standard jsonrpc. Here's the test code: http://pastebin.com/TYTdmKfA
211 2013-08-12 06:06:48 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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215 2013-08-12 06:08:02 <gmaxwell> runeks: I'd WAG decimal vs float numbers.
216 2013-08-12 06:08:21 <runeks> gmaxwell: What's the point of Decimal() anyway?
217 2013-08-12 06:08:26 <Luke-Jr> runeks: it's not float
218 2013-08-12 06:08:36 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Ok...
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220 2013-08-12 06:09:42 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Is that good?
221 2013-08-12 06:10:03 <Luke-Jr> runeks: float is imprecise
222 2013-08-12 06:10:07 <Luke-Jr> you don't want that with money
223 2013-08-12 06:10:59 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Right. Fair point. That's why we use 64 bit integers for money in bitcoin qt along with COIN. Why not use the same with the RPC interface?
224 2013-08-12 06:11:04 <gavinandresen> Bah: https://code.google.com/p/leveldb/issues/detail?id=197
225 2013-08-12 06:11:29 <Luke-Jr> runeks: because nobody considers it a priority to fix RPC nits like that
226 2013-08-12 06:11:39 <runeks> Fair enough.
227 2013-08-12 06:12:38 <runeks> I don't really use it for anything important either. So I'm just gonna use the standard json library. I can always multiply by 1e8 and convert to int.
228 2013-08-12 06:12:45 <gmaxwell> runeks: the rpc is, for all intents and purposes 64 bit integers with some funny formatting.
229 2013-08-12 06:13:33 <runeks> gmaxwell: So it's just a 64 bit int with a decimal point at the 8th position (from the right)?
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231 2013-08-12 06:13:58 <gmaxwell> runeks: so long as you're sure it always stays in doubles and never passes through a Float, and don't do any non-trivial manipulations, you won't lose precision.
232 2013-08-12 06:14:07 <gmaxwell> runeks: yes, right, it's even formatted that way (Extra zeros)
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234 2013-08-12 06:15:13 <runeks> gmaxwell: I see. Good to know. What about the difficulty? Should I treat that as an integer as well?
235 2013-08-12 06:15:31 <runeks> Looks like it's the same format (8 numbers after the decimal place).
236 2013-08-12 06:15:44 <Luke-Jr> runeks: no, difficulty is inherently floating
237 2013-08-12 06:17:34 <gmaxwell> runeks: difficulty isn't the high preceision representation, it's just a display target, I doubt you can reliably round trip that value.
238 2013-08-12 06:17:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we store it as a 24-bit floating point number <.<
239 2013-08-12 06:18:01 <Luke-Jr> I'd think you can
240 2013-08-12 06:18:40 <runeks> Luke-Jr, gmaxwell: I guess the protocol doesn't even check for that floating point number? It just looks at the target and the difficulty is just a more humanly readable figure?
241 2013-08-12 06:19:40 <Luke-Jr> runeks: correct
242 2013-08-12 06:19:54 <gmaxwell> runeks: Whats in the protocol is the bits field, which gets expanded to a target value. There is no floating point in the protocol whatsoever.
243 2013-08-12 06:20:10 <runeks> Right. That explains it.
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246 2013-08-12 06:21:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: bits *is* floating point O.o
247 2013-08-12 06:22:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: this is conflating multiple uses of the word.
248 2013-08-12 06:22:56 <Luke-Jr> 1-bit sign, 23-bit significand, and 8-bit exponent
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250 2013-08-12 06:23:55 <gmaxwell> Yes, and you might as well say that the whole block hash is a 'floating point number'.
251 2013-08-12 06:24:22 <gmaxwell> It's not a system machine float. It's a binary value that gets handled in precise ways according to the protocol..
252 2013-08-12 06:25:02 <gmaxwell> If you go around calling it a float you'll get people thinking its (float) and then making broken implementations.
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255 2013-08-12 06:27:44 <Luke-Jr> I'm not sure someone expecting a specific float format just because someone says 'float' should be writing a node
256 2013-08-12 06:29:21 <gmaxwell> maybe, but you don't add anything to bits when you call it float, if calling it float doesn't let people use the code they'd normally use for 'floats' on it. :P
257 2013-08-12 06:30:43 <gmaxwell> Thats why we give names to thinks, you knowâ so people know which library code to apply. :)
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277 2013-08-12 07:31:10 <fanquake> nice to see some progress on the osx corruption issues :)
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285 2013-08-12 07:44:16 <sipa> gavinandresen: great that you found that issue
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291 2013-08-12 07:57:41 <sipa> iirc we are also running in paranoid mode
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298 2013-08-12 08:04:57 <gavinandresen> sipa: I don't see paranoid_checks being used anywhere...
299 2013-08-12 08:07:50 Application has joined
300 2013-08-12 08:08:39 <sipa> oh, only verify_checksums
301 2013-08-12 08:08:50 <sipa> maybe we should enable paranoid?
302 2013-08-12 08:09:13 <gavinandresen> yes, I'm going to enable paranoid and then reindex (and then run with paranoid)
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304 2013-08-12 08:10:00 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
305 2013-08-12 08:10:49 <sipa> also, the linked issue talks about a race
306 2013-08-12 08:11:10 <sipa> afaik, we only write to chainstate while holding cs_main
307 2013-08-12 08:11:13 AtashiCon has joined
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309 2013-08-12 08:11:43 <sipa> hmm, but leveldb has its own background write thread
310 2013-08-12 08:12:12 <sipa> also, it talks about corruption in log files... for us, or at least what you observed, was in the manifest file?
311 2013-08-12 08:12:26 <gavinandresen> MANIFEST_nnnn is a log-format-file
312 2013-08-12 08:12:35 <sipa> ok
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323 2013-08-12 08:28:17 <Happzz> updating from 0.8.0-beta to 0.8.3, can i just replace the .exe or something?
324 2013-08-12 08:28:39 <Happzz> or there's more to it?
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336 2013-08-12 08:36:28 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: why not just upgrade normally?
337 2013-08-12 08:36:29 Subo1977 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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339 2013-08-12 08:38:34 <Happzz> Luke-Jr i use unusual locations
340 2013-08-12 08:38:42 <Happzz> and i normally don't like using installers
341 2013-08-12 08:38:49 <Happzz> they tend to add crap
342 2013-08-12 08:39:39 <Happzz> i just replaced the bitcoin-qt.exe and bitcoind.exe. seems to work.
343 2013-08-12 08:40:41 _dr has left ()
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346 2013-08-12 08:42:42 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: on Windows, installers are how things get installed. Bitcoin-Qt's won't add crap.
347 2013-08-12 08:43:01 <Luke-Jr> if you really don't like installers, you should probably consider a different OS o.O
348 2013-08-12 08:43:31 TD has joined
349 2013-08-12 08:43:43 <Happzz> ... i just replaced the bitcoin-qt.exe and bitcoind.exe. seems to work.
350 2013-08-12 08:43:45 <TD> good morning
351 2013-08-12 08:44:10 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: "seems to work" and probably does in this case - but what if one of the other files had a security fix, and then you got your coins stolen?
352 2013-08-12 08:44:14 <Happzz> and really, if not the games i play, which usually demand winblows, i'd move to unix a long time ago
353 2013-08-12 08:44:54 <Happzz> Luke-Jr these are the only 2 files....
354 2013-08-12 08:45:20 <sipa> pretty sure that on windows, you really only need those files
355 2013-08-12 08:45:31 <Luke-Jr> oh
356 2013-08-12 08:45:38 <sipa> though that advice won't hold for other programs
357 2013-08-12 08:46:03 <Luke-Jr> *ideally* there would be DLLs too
358 2013-08-12 08:46:12 <Happzz> sipa i have a few bitcoin-qt suggestions that i'm sure aren't that hard to implement:
359 2013-08-12 08:46:14 <Happzz> 1) show the balance of each address in the receive tab
360 2013-08-12 08:46:25 <sipa> ADDRESSES DO NOT HAVE A BALANCE
361 2013-08-12 08:46:29 <Luke-Jr> ^
362 2013-08-12 08:46:36 <Luke-Jr> also, there is no shortage of suggestions
363 2013-08-12 08:46:40 <sipa> there's coin control
364 2013-08-12 08:46:49 <sipa> which will likely allow what you want
365 2013-08-12 08:47:02 macboz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
366 2013-08-12 08:47:10 <Luke-Jr> if he's talking about address balances, he probably doesn't know what he wants <.<
367 2013-08-12 08:47:20 <sipa> but showing "address balances" without breakig the wallet abstraction entirely, will only confuse people
368 2013-08-12 08:47:37 <Happzz> how so?
369 2013-08-12 08:47:48 <sipa> the wallet functions as a black box
370 2013-08-12 08:47:51 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: because addresses are single-use and don't have balances
371 2013-08-12 08:47:57 <sipa> addresses are entry points into it
372 2013-08-12 08:48:10 <sipa> and coins are managed internally further
373 2013-08-12 08:48:24 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: likely when wumpus gets around to it, the list of receive addresses will go away entirely
374 2013-08-12 08:48:41 _dr has left ()
375 2013-08-12 08:48:46 <Happzz> so if you send 1 btc to 1whateveraddress, what keys are used to send that coin elsewhere?
376 2013-08-12 08:48:53 <Happzz> not that address'?
377 2013-08-12 08:48:55 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: the wallet.dat file
378 2013-08-12 08:49:21 <sipa> whatever key necessary to prove ownership of the address the input coin previously belonged to
379 2013-08-12 08:49:33 <sipa> but the word address here is confusing
380 2013-08-12 08:49:34 <Happzz> i.e. that address has the coin, no?
381 2013-08-12 08:49:34 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: the meaning of 1whateveraddress disappears as soon as it's sent
382 2013-08-12 08:49:45 digin4 has joined
383 2013-08-12 08:49:52 <sipa> Happzz: yes, it is not wrong, just not the abstraction the wallet uses
384 2013-08-12 08:49:54 <Happzz> Luke-Jr the meaning is kept as long as the coin is "kept" there
385 2013-08-12 08:49:54 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: the wallet has the coin. the address just told the sender what wallet it goes to.
386 2013-08-12 08:50:09 <Happzz> well, the wallet is a pack of many addresses, right?
387 2013-08-12 08:50:11 <sipa> Happzz: but the wallet moves coins around on its own
388 2013-08-12 08:50:21 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: internally, but that's not something users are exposed to
389 2013-08-12 08:50:26 <Happzz> how can it move coins around without telling the network about it?
390 2013-08-12 08:50:32 <sipa> it does
391 2013-08-12 08:50:46 <sipa> if you send a transaction, change is sent to a new address
392 2013-08-12 08:51:04 <sipa> if tou do not break the abstraction entirely, people will shoot themself in the foot
393 2013-08-12 08:51:07 <Happzz> oh. why won't the change be sent to the same address?
394 2013-08-12 08:51:19 <sipa> because addresses are supposed to be sigle use
395 2013-08-12 08:51:21 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: addresses can only be used a single time
396 2013-08-12 08:51:28 <Happzz> Luke-Jr CAN or SHOULD?
397 2013-08-12 08:51:30 <sipa> for privacy
398 2013-08-12 08:51:30 <sipa> of the entire system
399 2013-08-12 08:51:36 <Happzz> i see.
400 2013-08-12 08:51:40 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: things break subtley if you use an address more than once
401 2013-08-12 08:51:50 <sipa> meh
402 2013-08-12 08:51:50 <Luke-Jr> one person just had 55 BTC stolen because he reused his address
403 2013-08-12 08:51:59 <Happzz> how did that happen
404 2013-08-12 08:52:04 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
405 2013-08-12 08:52:04 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: a bug in Android
406 2013-08-12 08:52:10 <sipa> that was because of another issue
407 2013-08-12 08:52:13 <Happzz> oh. not a bitcoin issue
408 2013-08-12 08:52:19 <Luke-Jr> but had he been using Bitcoin addresses correctly, he wouldn't have been vulnerable in the same way
409 2013-08-12 08:52:20 <sipa> but indeed, sigle use would have prevented it
410 2013-08-12 08:52:36 <Happzz> so my wallet actually "has" a bunch of addresses that my client won't even show to me?
411 2013-08-12 08:52:44 <Luke-Jr> yes
412 2013-08-12 08:53:09 <Luke-Jr> wallets are opaque. you're not supposed to think about what they do internally unless you're debugging. :p
413 2013-08-12 08:53:17 Neil has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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415 2013-08-12 08:53:54 <Happzz> makes much more sense now.
416 2013-08-12 08:54:23 <Happzz> what about a feature to send all of the coins from all of the internal addresses to 1 single address, so it could be backed up more easily?
417 2013-08-12 08:54:28 Coincidental has joined
418 2013-08-12 08:55:35 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: there is a backup wallet function for backups
419 2013-08-12 08:55:48 <Happzz> i mean to a paper or something
420 2013-08-12 08:55:55 <Luke-Jr> resending all your coins to a single address only serves to incur transaction fees and slowness
421 2013-08-12 08:56:09 <Happzz> why is that?
422 2013-08-12 08:56:11 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: 0.9 will hopefully have HD wallets, which can do paper backups easier
423 2013-08-12 08:56:27 <Luke-Jr> although even then, those backups won't be complete
424 2013-08-12 08:56:28 <Happzz> "hd wallet"?
425 2013-08-12 08:56:34 <Luke-Jr> eg, you'd lose your labels/comments
426 2013-08-12 08:56:42 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: HD wallets are what Armory uses
427 2013-08-12 08:56:42 <Happzz> that won't be critical
428 2013-08-12 08:56:51 <Happzz> i see
429 2013-08-12 08:57:10 <Luke-Jr> Hierarchial Deterministic wallets
430 2013-08-12 08:57:32 <Luke-Jr> they essentially pregenerate infinite addresses from a single seed key
431 2013-08-12 08:57:33 <Happzz> i guess you could tell the client to send all change of every coin sends to a specific address, and that way move it all to a single address
432 2013-08-12 08:57:43 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: that would be reusing an address
433 2013-08-12 08:57:47 <TD> paper wallets i think will come to be seen more as a "last chance" backup rather than an actual way to store money
434 2013-08-12 08:57:54 <TD> because with time wallet metadata will become more and more important
435 2013-08-12 08:58:09 <Luke-Jr> TD: of course, or savings
436 2013-08-12 08:58:14 <TD> sure
437 2013-08-12 08:58:23 <Happzz> i don't trust my harddisk that much, really
438 2013-08-12 08:58:34 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: so make a wallet.dat backup
439 2013-08-12 08:58:40 <Luke-Jr> encrypted on some server
440 2013-08-12 08:58:43 <Happzz> i had the thoughts of saving a backup of my wallet in an encrypted truecrypt container on dropbox or something
441 2013-08-12 08:58:50 <Happzz> think that's safe enough?
442 2013-08-12 08:58:56 <Luke-Jr> just be sure to use a good encryption key
443 2013-08-12 08:59:02 <Luke-Jr> which means, something you can't memorize
444 2013-08-12 08:59:09 <Luke-Jr> and was generated by a computer
445 2013-08-12 08:59:17 agnostic98 has joined
446 2013-08-12 08:59:54 <Luke-Jr> as a rule, humans are incapable of generating (or usually memorizing) reasonable passphrases
447 2013-08-12 09:00:42 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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452 2013-08-12 09:05:44 <Luke-Jr> TD: btw, any idea how to debug BW for Android?
453 2013-08-12 09:05:52 <Luke-Jr> TD: it refuses to send my coins :/
454 2013-08-12 09:06:05 <Luke-Jr> and there's no upgrade available either
455 2013-08-12 09:06:17 <TD> refuses to send your coins?
456 2013-08-12 09:06:23 <TD> no, Goonie_ is about to start the play store rollout now
457 2013-08-12 09:06:43 <TD> there is a bug reported built into the app that sends detailed logs to Goonie_. you can also use "adb logcat" to see what's being logged
458 2013-08-12 09:06:53 <TD> but if this is key rotation related, wait and you'll get upgraded and rotated automatically
459 2013-08-12 09:07:34 nomailing has joined
460 2013-08-12 09:07:52 <Luke-Jr> TD: someone is probably building a database of all possible Android privkeys as we speak, no?
461 2013-08-12 09:08:13 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
462 2013-08-12 09:08:42 <TD> hard to say. the currently public details aren't enough to do a fast brute force. you'd still have to scan 2^64 keys. however non-public information would allow you to brute force a subset of the private keys faster. that's why we're in a hurry
463 2013-08-12 09:08:58 <Luke-Jr> isn't all the code in question public?
464 2013-08-12 09:09:04 <TD> if you could ensure eligius has removed the soft block size limit that'd help. i guess we're going to dump as much traffic onto the system as possible
465 2013-08-12 09:09:19 <TD> yes but the exact nature of some of the RNG failures are very subtle and not easily seen by code inspection
466 2013-08-12 09:09:49 <Luke-Jr> blockmaxsize=900000
467 2013-08-12 09:10:00 <TD> thanks
468 2013-08-12 09:10:04 <Luke-Jr> (already)
469 2013-08-12 09:10:19 <Luke-Jr> will there be fees on these?
470 2013-08-12 09:10:38 <Luke-Jr> or should I consider hacking Eligius to look for vulnerable keys somehow and let them past?
471 2013-08-12 09:10:51 <TD> min fee is included
472 2013-08-12 09:10:55 <Luke-Jr> ok
473 2013-08-12 09:11:00 <TD> we don't currently have any code that enumerates all vulnerable keys
474 2013-08-12 09:11:33 * Luke-Jr wonders if the autoupgrade migration will work, if he can't even send his coins now
475 2013-08-12 09:11:36 jtimon has joined
476 2013-08-12 09:11:41 <TD> how are your coins stuck?
477 2013-08-12 09:11:44 Goonie_ has left ()
478 2013-08-12 09:11:51 <Luke-Jr> dunno, the client just fails to send them
479 2013-08-12 09:11:56 <TD> huh
480 2013-08-12 09:11:57 <Luke-Jr> I'll give the adb a try
481 2013-08-12 09:12:01 <TD> do you see an error message or anything?
482 2013-08-12 09:12:02 Goonie has joined
483 2013-08-12 09:12:04 <TD> the tx just doesn't propagate?
484 2013-08-12 09:12:07 <TD> Goonie: welcome back
485 2013-08-12 09:12:15 <Luke-Jr> TD: no, it fails to create a tx
486 2013-08-12 09:12:20 <TD> huh
487 2013-08-12 09:12:24 <TD> do you have a giant wallet?
488 2013-08-12 09:12:30 <Luke-Jr> nope, 1 coin
489 2013-08-12 09:12:30 <Goonie> just noticed I could not talk
490 2013-08-12 09:12:31 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
491 2013-08-12 09:12:32 <TD> if it can't build a tx that's under the max std size it'll fail.
492 2013-08-12 09:12:35 <TD> ok
493 2013-08-12 09:12:53 <TD> that's not something i've heard of before. yes logs would help. Goonie how do you trigger the bug reporter?
494 2013-08-12 09:12:55 <Luke-Jr> btw, I hope by "rotation" you don't mean you're going to try to preserve mappings to addresses - this should be just sending all to 1 new address :x
495 2013-08-12 09:13:03 <TD> it sends to 1 checkpubkey output
496 2013-08-12 09:13:07 <TD> many->one
497 2013-08-12 09:13:18 <Luke-Jr> phew good
498 2013-08-12 09:13:20 <TD> it's all optimised to generate as few bytes as possible
499 2013-08-12 09:13:33 <Luke-Jr> 0.16727216
500 2013-08-12 09:14:15 <Luke-Jr> "Problem sending coins!" is what it displays
501 2013-08-12 09:14:43 <Luke-Jr> W/Wallet ( 3974): [backgroundThread] Insufficient value in wallet for send: needed 0.16737216
502 2013-08-12 09:14:57 <TD> oh
503 2013-08-12 09:15:01 <TD> you're trying to empty your wallet out entirely?
504 2013-08-12 09:15:03 <Luke-Jr> bah, it's demanding a fee when there shouldn't be one, and not telling me why it failed
505 2013-08-12 09:15:05 <Luke-Jr> yes
506 2013-08-12 09:15:09 <TD> that's fixed in the version we're about to deply
507 2013-08-12 09:15:18 <Goonie> can you repeat what's the problem? I must have missed it because I needed to close and reopen irc.
508 2013-08-12 09:15:20 <TD> there's an "empty wallet" menu item that auto calculates the right amount - fee and builds the correct tx
509 2013-08-12 09:15:23 BurtyBB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
510 2013-08-12 09:15:26 <TD> Goonie: he needs the empty wallet feature in 0.10
511 2013-08-12 09:15:27 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: apparently already fixed
512 2013-08-12 09:15:39 <Luke-Jr> TD: is the fee calc fixed too? :p
513 2013-08-12 09:15:57 <Luke-Jr> 0.16+ BTC from before the Conference should IMO be feeless by now
514 2013-08-12 09:15:59 <TD> Luke-Jr: pressing "empty wallet" sends your current balance - correct fee for the size of that tx (min fee*kb)
515 2013-08-12 09:16:23 <TD> yeah unfortunately bitcoinj always attaches a fee, because fee-less transactions tend to sit for a long time. due to the weird 27kb limit on free txns per block
516 2013-08-12 09:16:41 <TD> fee handling is all kinds of broke in bitcoin. gavinandresen is on the case, i think. at least he is post-payment-protocol
517 2013-08-12 09:18:08 <Goonie> ok just a aware that if your wallet is corrupt due to earlier bugs (since the last replay), the "empty wallet" will probably never confirm.
518 2013-08-12 09:18:11 <Luke-Jr> there we go, sent to my -Qt
519 2013-08-12 09:18:19 <TD> great
520 2013-08-12 09:19:04 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
521 2013-08-12 09:19:04 GordonG3kko has joined
522 2013-08-12 09:19:10 <Luke-Jr> TD: btw, is there any way to get a proper SSH or VNC server on Android? :/
523 2013-08-12 09:19:18 <Luke-Jr> I wasted hours trying to get one, but failed
524 2013-08-12 09:19:36 <TD> you can use adb to get a shell. on modern androids it's RSA protected and can be routed over TCP. For VNC, not sure, I think you might need a rooted phone for that.
525 2013-08-12 09:19:36 <Luke-Jr> proper as in, not a chroot/virtual SSH
526 2013-08-12 09:19:54 <Luke-Jr> mine is rooted, but all the VNC server apps don't work
527 2013-08-12 09:20:05 <Luke-Jr> (what's with 90% of Google Play being broken anyhow?)
528 2013-08-12 09:20:06 <Goonie> Luke-Jr: if there was, I'm sure it would use SecureRandom (-:
529 2013-08-12 09:20:22 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: OpenSSH isn't Java
530 2013-08-12 09:20:28 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
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532 2013-08-12 09:20:41 <t7> im sick of android/google now and am going to get a jolla phone or something similar next
533 2013-08-12 09:20:48 <Luke-Jr> t7: Jolla?
534 2013-08-12 09:20:54 <TD> the ex nokia thing
535 2013-08-12 09:20:58 * Luke-Jr would google, but that'd be ironic
536 2013-08-12 09:21:03 <Luke-Jr> ah
537 2013-08-12 09:21:09 <t7> real linux phone
538 2013-08-12 09:21:21 <Goonie> ndk native apps must use the java api as well, except some whitelisted apis like opengl
539 2013-08-12 09:21:27 <Luke-Jr> I hate phones. I'm holding out for someone to make a device that runs Gentoo and has a keyboard again.
540 2013-08-12 09:21:30 <Luke-Jr> stuck with N900 for now
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542 2013-08-12 09:22:02 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: in other words, I won't find what I'm looking for in Google Play because of some stupid restrictions <.<
543 2013-08-12 09:22:23 <Luke-Jr> s/runs/can run/
544 2013-08-12 09:22:29 <Goonie> Luke-Jr: to be honest I don't know
545 2013-08-12 09:23:06 <Luke-Jr> oh well
546 2013-08-12 09:23:20 <TD> actually you can write entirely native android apps now
547 2013-08-12 09:23:28 <TD> but they don't get access to the full api of course. it's intended for games.
548 2013-08-12 09:23:37 <TD> you can bring up an opengl context and stuff without any java code at all, iirc
549 2013-08-12 09:23:40 <Luke-Jr> I just want to install stock OpenSSH
550 2013-08-12 09:23:53 <TD> Luke-Jr: probably the cyanogen guys have what you want.
551 2013-08-12 09:24:42 <Luke-Jr> TD: it's too bad you're not on the Android team, or I'd beg you for a keyboarded handheld :P
552 2013-08-12 09:25:11 <TD> yeah i miss the G1 keyboard too. that said the modern soft keyboards with swiping on them are really good
553 2013-08-12 09:25:14 <TD> you can go very fast
554 2013-08-12 09:25:20 <TD> so i don't miss it too much these days
555 2013-08-12 09:25:42 <warren> Goonie: hey, still here?
556 2013-08-12 09:25:48 <Luke-Jr> swiping sounds like a disaster while driving :p
557 2013-08-12 09:26:05 BurtyB has joined
558 2013-08-12 09:26:28 <warren> Luke-Jr: dude!
559 2013-08-12 09:26:33 <Luke-Jr> lol
560 2013-08-12 09:26:40 <warren> Luke-Jr: there's a perfect phone with keyboard
561 2013-08-12 09:26:45 <Luke-Jr> there is?
562 2013-08-12 09:26:54 <warren> well, I wish it had a bigger screen, but it's quite nice
563 2013-08-12 09:27:46 <warren> Luke-Jr: apextmo a.k.a. T-Mobile Galaxy S Relay 4G. 1.5GH dual core, 4 inch screen, slideout 5 row qwerty keyboard, same guts as "d2" (SGS3 generation)... and it has a Cyanogenmod port.
564 2013-08-12 09:28:23 <Luke-Jr> 1.5 GH? it does mining too? :P
565 2013-08-12 09:28:33 <warren> heh... GHz
566 2013-08-12 09:28:52 <Luke-Jr> warren: any idea how the mainline (or at least free software) Linux support is for it?
567 2013-08-12 09:29:07 <warren> many distros will run in a chroot
568 2013-08-12 09:29:22 <Luke-Jr> hmm, just 8 GB flash :x
569 2013-08-12 09:29:29 <Luke-Jr> warren: don't want a chroot.. :p
570 2013-08-12 09:29:35 <Luke-Jr> want full X.org + KDE
571 2013-08-12 09:29:40 <warren> what you want doesn't exist
572 2013-08-12 09:29:47 <petertodd> interesting, coinbae choked on block 000000000000001fbc5a74fb56b1cf8949bcfad8e3ae06f2af638b94f7633fbc, this tx in that block is interesting: 77822fd6663c665104119cb7635352756dfc50da76a92d417ec1a12c518fad69
573 2013-08-12 09:29:49 <Luke-Jr> ideally with a resistive touchscreen! :P
574 2013-08-12 09:30:02 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: http://www.motorola.com/us/consumers/MOTOROLA-PHOTON-Q/m-PHOTON-Q-4G-LTE,en_US,pd.html
575 2013-08-12 09:30:04 <Luke-Jr> warren: N900 can do it
576 2013-08-12 09:30:12 agnostic98 has joined
577 2013-08-12 09:30:15 <warren> then stick to N900...
578 2013-08-12 09:30:18 freefox has joined
579 2013-08-12 09:30:21 <Luke-Jr> it's so RAM-limited..
580 2013-08-12 09:30:43 <warren> Luke-Jr: SGS3 or SGS4 with 2GB RAM and 32GB onboard flash + microSD slot is quite nice, but no slideout keyboard.
581 2013-08-12 09:31:03 <warren> Luke-Jr: the apextmo has only 1GB RAM, 8GB flash + microSD, so not ideal.
582 2013-08-12 09:31:23 <Luke-Jr> warren: N900 is 256 MB RAM :p
583 2013-08-12 09:31:28 <Luke-Jr> but 16 GB flash
584 2013-08-12 09:31:34 <warren> Luke-Jr: OTOH, I used to run openssh and rsync in a fedora chroot on my epicmtd, 512MB RAM, 1GB flash + microSD.
585 2013-08-12 09:31:51 mrkent has joined
586 2013-08-12 09:32:05 <warren> I used ssh + rsync to backup my phone when on home wifi.
587 2013-08-12 09:32:06 <petertodd> Rather strange what coinbase has done too, it says "opcode-65285", so I suspect they've somehow been confused parsing an opcode as two bytes rather than one, weird.
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590 2013-08-12 09:32:38 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: O.o
591 2013-08-12 09:32:38 <warren> petertodd: you know, they'd probably pay you a lot in bug bounties if you explained them stuff rather than ridicule them.
592 2013-08-12 09:32:48 <petertodd> warren: huh/
593 2013-08-12 09:32:51 <petertodd> ?
594 2013-08-12 09:32:52 <Luke-Jr> warren: didn't they hire coblee for that? :p
595 2013-08-12 09:33:01 <petertodd> warren: I didn't make that tx
596 2013-08-12 09:33:02 <warren> Luke-Jr: I have no idea why they hired coblee.
597 2013-08-12 09:33:37 <warren> petertodd: I'm guessing they want analysis/fixes/vulnerabilities
598 2013-08-12 09:33:37 <TD> this is the bug that killed off electrum servers?
599 2013-08-12 09:33:43 <TD> anyone figure out what the issue with that script is yet?
600 2013-08-12 09:33:53 <sipa> an unparseable scriptPubKey, i read?
601 2013-08-12 09:33:56 <petertodd> TD: what bug is that?
602 2013-08-12 09:34:12 <petertodd> TD: oh crazy, someone embedded a patch in the tx...
603 2013-08-12 09:34:23 <TD> lolwut
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605 2013-08-12 09:34:31 <warren> Luke-Jr: plain Cyanogenmod on pretty much any supported phone with openssh or dropbear sshd + rsync is quite nice. Doesn't require much RAM at all.
606 2013-08-12 09:34:34 <TD> petertodd: electrum servers all stopped following the chain at exactly the same height
607 2013-08-12 09:34:39 <TD> due to some script parsing exception
608 2013-08-12 09:34:44 <warren> Luke-Jr: I used to dev there a lot.
609 2013-08-12 09:34:56 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=271761.0
610 2013-08-12 09:35:09 <petertodd> http://pastebin.com/8mjzE6yY <- said patch
611 2013-08-12 09:35:17 <Goonie> Ok the fun begins. 3.15 is released to Google Play. I increated versionCode again, so everyone will upgrade including the beta testers. Don't worry, anyone who's already been rotated won't be rotated again.
612 2013-08-12 09:35:30 <Luke-Jr> cute
613 2013-08-12 09:36:14 <TD> my node is catching up so i don't know how big the mempool is currently
614 2013-08-12 09:36:23 <petertodd> huh... I mentioned this in the forums a few weeks ago actually, way back when Satoshi briefly added some code that would have done double-width 16-bit opcodes, and sounds like some people didn't realize the code was removed years ago...
615 2013-08-12 09:36:29 <Luke-Jr> how do I tell android to upgrade?
616 2013-08-12 09:36:42 <Goonie> TD: I'll have a look at it. But don't worry, usually it takes hours before Google starts the rollout.
617 2013-08-12 09:36:53 <TD> oh, really? interesting. i wonder what the source of delay is
618 2013-08-12 09:36:59 <TD> presumably anti-malware scanning takes a bit of time, but hours?
619 2013-08-12 09:37:25 <Goonie> TD: It's been that long since I do Android development. Back then, there was no word of malware at all.
620 2013-08-12 09:37:32 <TD> ok
621 2013-08-12 09:37:41 <Luke-Jr> automated antimalware at this level is impossible..? O.o
622 2013-08-12 09:37:43 <TD> i guess it has to replicate out to serving datacenters, devices have to check in to learn there's an update, etc
623 2013-08-12 09:38:04 <Goonie> I'm off to brush my teeth (-:
624 2013-08-12 09:38:13 <petertodd> ah, here's why coinbase died: https://github.com/lian/bitcoin-ruby/commit/29c2c01b09db165b2a746a2409e0c1ed3b67d7e6 looks like they didn't update production, same issue as electrum
625 2013-08-12 09:39:07 <warren> Luke-Jr: Cyanogenmod has a built-in updater now, you can choose stable, maintenance or nightly build stream.
626 2013-08-12 09:39:42 <TD> i wish there was a working testnet block explorer
627 2013-08-12 09:40:22 <petertodd> someone just spent an odd tx in eligius last block too: 61a078472543e9de9247446076320499c108b52307d8d0fafbe53b5c4e32acc4
628 2013-08-12 09:40:35 <petertodd> TD: blockchain.info really should have a public testnet version iMO
629 2013-08-12 09:40:48 <TD> it would be nice
630 2013-08-12 09:41:02 <petertodd> TD: it's a good way of publicly showing you do testing too
631 2013-08-12 09:41:24 <Luke-Jr> I wish there was a block explorer builtin to Bitcoin-Qt <.<
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633 2013-08-12 09:43:07 <sipa> Luke-Jr: tried overblock?
634 2013-08-12 09:43:09 <TD> it's unfortunate that b.i nosedived just when we need it most
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638 2013-08-12 09:50:30 <petertodd> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=271486.msg2916349#msg2916349 <- wow, apache harmony screwed up so badly the worst case is 9 bits of entropy
639 2013-08-12 09:51:16 <TD> yeah but that will never happen on android
640 2013-08-12 09:51:34 <petertodd> i know, says so right in the post, still remarkable
641 2013-08-12 09:51:39 <TD> indeed
642 2013-08-12 09:52:20 <TD> i would love to know what was going through their head when they added % 128
643 2013-08-12 09:52:23 <Goonie> What would be a high/an alerting number of tx in the mempool? I assume everything below 3000 is nothing to worry about, because that's roughly the number of tx that fit in a block?
644 2013-08-12 09:52:49 <petertodd> Goonie: what do you mean by 'alerting'?
645 2013-08-12 09:53:02 <Goonie> petertodd: before nodes will go down due to oom
646 2013-08-12 09:53:12 <TD> nobody knows, unfortunately.
647 2013-08-12 09:53:15 <TD> it varies by node
648 2013-08-12 09:53:23 <TD> 3000 is probably nowhere near enough to cause issues though
649 2013-08-12 09:53:41 <petertodd> Goonie: oh, not likely, just do the math for how many btc it costs per mb and you'll see how unlikely it is for a fast OOM situation to happen
650 2013-08-12 09:54:00 <warren> Goonie: PM ... although if you're busy now I can send it via e-mail
651 2013-08-12 09:54:09 <TD> that said there's not much point putting txns into the mempool faster than they can drain out
652 2013-08-12 09:54:19 <TD> petertodd: txns use up more space in RAM than on the wire though
653 2013-08-12 09:54:34 <TD> we shouldn't worry too much but it's still worth being careful
654 2013-08-12 09:55:54 <petertodd> TD: oh, granted, now that the fee is 0.1mBTC/KB that's only $10k USD per GB... and as you say, maybe $5K including overhead
655 2013-08-12 09:56:16 random_cat has joined
656 2013-08-12 09:56:48 <Luke-Jr> sipa: nhoi?
657 2013-08-12 09:57:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ?
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659 2013-08-12 09:57:27 <sipa> https://github.com/realazthat/overblock
660 2013-08-12 09:57:43 <sipa> it's an RPC-based block explorer
661 2013-08-12 09:58:03 <Goonie> petertodd: the cost of a tx is not a factor for me, since in the current case I am rotating my users bitcoins and not mine.
662 2013-08-12 09:58:22 <petertodd> Goonie: i'm talking about attacks
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809 2013-08-12 13:27:35 <handle> 17:43 < Luke-Jr> I wish there was a block explorer builtin to Bitcoin-Qt <.<
810 2013-08-12 13:28:01 <handle> on one hand, that would be incredible - on the other hand, it makes it less friendly to new users
811 2013-08-12 13:28:06 <jgarzik> NY regulator memo, on virtual currencies and bitcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272269.0
812 2013-08-12 13:28:14 <handle> but if someone wants to build a block explorer into bitcoin-qt, screw the new users :P
813 2013-08-12 13:28:29 <sipa> handle: why would it be less friendly...?
814 2013-08-12 13:28:52 <sipa> it can't be enabled by default in any case
815 2013-08-12 13:29:06 <sipa> (it requires some indexes that are optional in normal operation)
816 2013-08-12 13:29:37 agricocb has joined
817 2013-08-12 13:31:04 <t7> 'national security' so long yanks
818 2013-08-12 13:31:18 <handle> hmm, I guess it wouldn't be that bad in terms of friendliness - it would at least (hopefully) dispel the "untrackable" myth
819 2013-08-12 13:31:45 <handle> also, would it not be better to build the indexes as the blockchain is gathered?
820 2013-08-12 13:32:00 <handle> why couldn't it be enabled by default?
821 2013-08-12 13:32:27 <gmaxwell> handle: because it increases the burden of running a node for no purpose (if that functionality isn't used)
822 2013-08-12 13:33:09 <gmaxwell> Our supply of public full nodes wouldn't be enhanced by needing another 2 gigs (and growing) and additional IO to maintain them.
823 2013-08-12 13:33:19 <lianj> aw, missed all the fun from last night
824 2013-08-12 13:33:30 <gmaxwell> lianj: more fun today, no doubt.
825 2013-08-12 13:33:34 <helo> jgarzik: "Taking steps to ensure that transactions are processed virmly is vital..." ??
826 2013-08-12 13:33:43 <lianj> is http://paste.mhanne.net/raw/fd2164218635b1ad62bf513f6d3030129a0b2307 really from him or just peter
827 2013-08-12 13:33:50 <helo> ack, bad brain
828 2013-08-12 13:34:02 <helo> *promptly
829 2013-08-12 13:34:39 <gmaxwell> lianj: so, when doing the ruby stuff... did you model your parsing code after abe? I'm wondering how you got 16 bit opcode support code.... :)
830 2013-08-12 13:34:41 <jgarzik> helo, yeah, WTF
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832 2013-08-12 13:35:03 <lianj> gmaxwell: i think from bitcoinj back then
833 2013-08-12 13:35:04 <helo> i guess they are referring to mtgox withdrawal delays?
834 2013-08-12 13:35:13 <handle> gmaxwell: but do you think more people would use full nodes if the block explorer were built in, even despite the 2GB overhead?
835 2013-08-12 13:35:13 <gmaxwell> lianj: ah! interesting.
836 2013-08-12 13:35:25 <lianj> gmaxwell: but at least i catched it on the testnet3 tx 7 days ago :|
837 2013-08-12 13:35:25 <sipa> handle: also, if indexes are enabled for everyone, it will probably encourage people to build infrastructure that relies on it
838 2013-08-12 13:35:35 <handle> I suppose at that point, having it optional would be best
839 2013-08-12 13:35:41 <sipa> handle: instead of more scalable solutions (decent wallets that track only what is necessary)
840 2013-08-12 13:35:51 <gmaxwell> handle: generally the kind of high uptime publically reachable nodes we need most aren't running on systems with users sitting at them. Hard to say. But you don't need a _default_ to get that outcome.
841 2013-08-12 13:36:04 <gmaxwell> handle: if you want an explorer, you'll know it, and can check the box. :)
842 2013-08-12 13:36:07 <sipa> handle: as we hope to get block pruning at some point in the future, it's preferable that people don't rely on always having all blocks available
843 2013-08-12 13:36:07 <handle> gmaxwell: I'll agree with that
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845 2013-08-12 13:36:47 <handle> ah yes, that's true
846 2013-08-12 13:37:17 <handle> however doesn't block pruning require the knowledge of all unspent outputs anyways?
847 2013-08-12 13:37:26 <sipa> it does
848 2013-08-12 13:37:36 <sipa> that's why we keep unspent outputs in a completely separate database
849 2013-08-12 13:37:42 <sipa> the blocks are hardly necessary at all
850 2013-08-12 13:37:47 <handle> ah
851 2013-08-12 13:37:50 <sipa> (only for serving to other nodes, and rescanning)
852 2013-08-12 13:38:05 <sipa> and for reorganizations you need the last few ones
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856 2013-08-12 13:39:18 <gmaxwell> Right now the indexes are about 2gb overhead, over pruning they're more like 11gb overhead.
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858 2013-08-12 13:39:49 <jgarzik> speaking of
859 2013-08-12 13:39:55 <jgarzik> what's the status of the pruning pull req?
860 2013-08-12 13:40:03 <sipa> i have never seen a pruning pull req
861 2013-08-12 13:40:04 <jgarzik> gettxoutset needed a flag?
862 2013-08-12 13:40:11 <sipa> ah, the OP_RETURN thing
863 2013-08-12 13:40:15 <jgarzik> sipa, your prune-unspendable
864 2013-08-12 13:40:17 <sipa> sorry, haven't had time
865 2013-08-12 13:41:00 <sipa> i hoped to complete headers-first this weekend, but there were these damned social activities :)
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868 2013-08-12 13:43:28 <handle> gmaxwell: so pruning could potentially take 11GB out of the blockchain storage? (or am I understanding that wrong)
869 2013-08-12 13:44:10 <sipa> handle: count the size of your blk* and rev* files
870 2013-08-12 13:44:16 <sipa> a bit less than that can be pruned
871 2013-08-12 13:44:26 <sipa> in ~/.bitcoin/blocks
872 2013-08-12 13:45:02 <gmaxwell> handle: a pruned node would only need a couple hundred megs right now plus however many of the most recent blocks you keep, plus whatever amount of the fractional history you keep.
873 2013-08-12 13:45:14 viperhr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
874 2013-08-12 13:45:46 <petertodd> interesting tx on blockchain.info: http://blockchain.info/tx/59bd7b2cff5da929581fc9fef31a2fba14508f1477e366befb1eb42a8810a000
875 2013-08-12 13:48:05 <jgarzik> petertodd, what makes it interesting? apart from gmaxwell ref of course
876 2013-08-12 13:48:19 <petertodd> jgarzik: it has a javascript popup
877 2013-08-12 13:48:34 <petertodd> jgarzik: bc.i doesn't escape the binary payload
878 2013-08-12 13:49:04 <lianj> lol
879 2013-08-12 13:49:21 <sipa> outch!
880 2013-08-12 13:49:31 <petertodd> I just messaged piuk about it on bitcointalk - is there a faster way to get ahold of him?
881 2013-08-12 13:49:40 <sipa> petertodd: yes, start exploiting it :D
882 2013-08-12 13:49:49 <petertodd> sipa: heh, well...
883 2013-08-12 13:49:56 <gmaxwell> Check.
884 2013-08-12 13:50:11 <sipa> like "what's the fastest way to the hospital? just jump down this building"
885 2013-08-12 13:50:20 <jgarzik> heh
886 2013-08-12 13:51:19 <gmaxwell> apparently we have no phone number for him.
887 2013-08-12 13:52:38 <handle> gmaxwell: nice to hear - does only that portion need to be downloaded from peers? (ignoring any fractional history)
888 2013-08-12 13:52:39 <gmaxwell> petertodd: this link would have worked better: http://blockchain.info/tx/59bd7b2cff5da929581fc9fef31a2fba14508f1477e366befb1eb42a8810a000?show_adv=true
889 2013-08-12 13:52:46 <gmaxwell> handle: no.
890 2013-08-12 13:52:59 <gmaxwell> handle: it doesn't change the bandwidth/computation, just storiage.
891 2013-08-12 13:53:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, good point
892 2013-08-12 13:53:16 * petertodd always uses advanced
893 2013-08-12 13:53:47 <handle> I see
894 2013-08-12 13:53:51 <petertodd> tx bc00cc28c9be4f15cf5fa4b93c79c36aefd5bcc54f54e689017d528333b6fd7b is the same, but more subtle...
895 2013-08-12 13:54:06 <sipa> handle: the fact that peers still need to be able to download it, is why pruning hasn't been implemented
896 2013-08-12 13:54:58 <gmaxwell> petertodd: can you also please tell piuk to move the mywallet stuff to something which isn't the same domain (or a subdomain) of something that displays untrusted input?
897 2013-08-12 13:55:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: good idea
898 2013-08-12 13:55:15 <gmaxwell> blocks.blockchain.info / wallet.blockchain.info would be fine.
899 2013-08-12 13:55:28 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
900 2013-08-12 13:55:36 <handle> blockwallet.info
901 2013-08-12 13:56:35 <iddo> sipa: gmaxwell: about "self-descriptive strengthened keying" (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102349.0), have you compared it to this HKDF scheme: http://robotics.stanford.edu/~xb/security07/index.html ?
902 2013-08-12 13:56:51 <iddo> i think that the advantage of HKDF is that it makes life even harder for an attacker who tries to a dictionary attack
903 2013-08-12 13:57:26 <iddo> and the disadvantage is that the user has to save a public string, i.e. not jt remember a passphrase
904 2013-08-12 13:57:48 <iddo> s/jt/just
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907 2013-08-12 14:00:04 <gmaxwell> sort of interesting that none of the normal transaction visualization tools show you that a signature is SINGLE|ANYONECANPAY.
908 2013-08-12 14:01:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, it should be some kind of nice visual showing how the signature encloses various things and not other things
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916 2013-08-12 14:02:19 <gmaxwell> that XSS exploit on blockchain.info was signed blind to the actual attack in itâ¦
917 2013-08-12 14:02:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: what does that mean?
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921 2013-08-12 14:04:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it's a sighash single, and the signature on the input spending one of my coins doesn't cover the OP_RETURN.
922 2013-08-12 14:04:52 <lianj> at least there is no tweets about "omg xss in bc.i. everything is doomed" already. lets hope it stays that way until fixed
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927 2013-08-12 14:05:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh right
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939 2013-08-12 14:09:08 <petertodd> ...and it's fixed
940 2013-08-12 14:09:20 <petertodd> also piuk says the wallet is moving to another domain soon
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981 2013-08-12 14:23:11 <Vinnie_win> Hey guys
982 2013-08-12 14:23:15 <Vinnie_win> http://codepad.org/QVE7P3A5 What do I put on line 14?
983 2013-08-12 14:25:02 <sipa> (true) ?
984 2013-08-12 14:25:22 <jgarzik> sipa, http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/assert.h.html ?
985 2013-08-12 14:25:27 <jgarzik> er
986 2013-08-12 14:25:30 <jgarzik> Vinnie_win, http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/assert.h.html ?
987 2013-08-12 14:25:31 <sipa> ah
988 2013-08-12 14:25:39 <sipa> do {} while(true)
989 2013-08-12 14:25:46 <Vinnie_win> jgarzik: Thanks!
990 2013-08-12 14:25:58 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Yes but that makes visual studio produce idiotic warnings, which I dont like to turn off.
991 2013-08-12 14:26:22 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: you can disable VS warnings on a line by line basis or with pragams around the offending stupidity.
992 2013-08-12 14:26:38 <Vinnie_win> gmaxwell: I'm well are but its laborious
993 2013-08-12 14:29:32 Neozonz is now known as Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Neozonz
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1002 2013-08-12 14:50:46 <Vinnie_win> *I'm well aware but its laborious.
1003 2013-08-12 14:50:49 <Vinnie_win> How go things on the bitcoin front?
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1007 2013-08-12 14:58:31 <CodeShark> quiet, apparently :p
1008 2013-08-12 15:00:30 <Luke-Jr> we're all busy building private key tables for all the possible Android addresses
1009 2013-08-12 15:00:31 <Luke-Jr> :P
1010 2013-08-12 15:01:18 <CodeShark> lol
1011 2013-08-12 15:01:22 agricocb has joined
1012 2013-08-12 15:01:42 <Cusipzzz> for research, of course
1013 2013-08-12 15:01:46 <CodeShark> while you're at it you might want to take a crack at some other types of applications besides bitcoin :)
1014 2013-08-12 15:02:36 <Ry4an> Yeah, I'm wondering if my android ssh's client's private keys were well generated. I'm guessing no.
1015 2013-08-12 15:04:02 <CodeShark> is there an in-depth article published on this vulnerability yet?
1016 2013-08-12 15:04:07 cypher has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1019 2013-08-12 15:05:08 <CodeShark> is it just the SecureRandom class?
1020 2013-08-12 15:05:31 <TD> "it's complicated"
1021 2013-08-12 15:06:03 KillYourTV has joined
1022 2013-08-12 15:06:19 <CodeShark> do you understand the vulnerability well, TD?
1023 2013-08-12 15:07:03 <TD> yes
1024 2013-08-12 15:07:11 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1025 2013-08-12 15:07:22 <gmaxwell> TD: is it bigger than a breadbox?
1026 2013-08-12 15:07:34 <TD> blink
1027 2013-08-12 15:07:44 <TD> depends how much you like bread, i guess
1028 2013-08-12 15:07:58 <gmaxwell> hm. /me consults the side-channel table for "blink"
1029 2013-08-12 15:08:01 <CodeShark> can you give a three sentence summary?
1030 2013-08-12 15:08:15 <TD> no
1031 2013-08-12 15:08:36 <TD> unfortunately my understanding is based on non-public information from the android internal bug tracker. because i'm not on the android team or security-pr team, i can't really discuss things in detail. also, knowing exactly what the bugs are would allow much faster and worse exploitation than we've seen so far
1032 2013-08-12 15:09:08 <TD> however you can be assured that right now people are beating down press@google.com with a battering ram, so i guess there will be some public statements tonight or tomorrow after california has woken up and had a chance to put something together
1033 2013-08-12 15:09:34 <gmaxwell> there have been some people going around saying that it's _just_ earlier android. I'd advised that I was relatively sure that was a seperate issue and not the case here.
1034 2013-08-12 15:09:46 <TD> i think that is good advice
1035 2013-08-12 15:10:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, petertodd, TD: Has anyone mapped out a model for a zero-trust, or low-trust, decentralized auction? That's one problem I would love to solve without a centralized website.
1036 2013-08-12 15:10:23 <TD> i haven't. i was interested in auctions a while ago but got distracted with other things.
1037 2013-08-12 15:10:29 * TD discovered that jgarzik wrote rngd yesterday
1038 2013-08-12 15:10:34 <jgarzik> heh
1039 2013-08-12 15:10:35 <TD> funny how the same names crop up repeatedly in the open source world :)
1040 2013-08-12 15:11:04 <TD> i wish we had tools that gave insight into how tx are chosen for blocks. it's not really clear to me why the mempool is growing and blocks that are being mined aren't full.
1041 2013-08-12 15:11:09 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1042 2013-08-12 15:11:10 <TD> it'd be nice if i could see a breakdown graphically
1043 2013-08-12 15:11:21 <jgarzik> I wrote original hardware RNG drivers for AMD, VIA and Intel RNGs (such hardware, except perhaps VIA, are long disappeared from the scene)
1044 2013-08-12 15:11:29 <jgarzik> then it began to make sense to put some of that in userspace
1045 2013-08-12 15:11:39 <jgarzik> people complained about FIPS testing code in the kernel and whatnot
1046 2013-08-12 15:11:46 <TD> why use a daemon though? why doesn't /dev/random just pull from the hardware RNG directly?
1047 2013-08-12 15:12:06 <TD> btw also - why do you bother testing for randomness of the output? if it's not random mixing into the entropy pool can't hurt, and you can't do anything about it beyond log an alert anyway
1048 2013-08-12 15:12:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the transaction part for an auction wouldn't be hard. You'd announce the auction along with a anyone can pay signed input. And people propose their bids by giving you transactions which they pay into.. only one can be valid.
1049 2013-08-12 15:12:38 <jgarzik> TD, in some situations like CPU RNGs, it is nice to schedule that operation, so you cannot trigger the kernel pounding the RNG hardware from userland
1050 2013-08-12 15:13:03 <Diablo-D3> [11:11:44] <TD> why use a daemon though? why doesn't /dev/random just pull from the hardware RNG directly?
1051 2013-08-12 15:13:09 <Diablo-D3> only if you have a driver for it
1052 2013-08-12 15:13:14 Darwerft has joined
1053 2013-08-12 15:13:28 <Diablo-D3> and not all hardware RNGs constantly stream random data as fast as you can read it
1054 2013-08-12 15:13:30 <gmaxwell> TD: logging an alert wouldn't be totally useless... though the fact that rngd throws the data away when the fips test fails is unfortunate, though not a material weakness.
1055 2013-08-12 15:13:34 bmcgee has joined
1056 2013-08-12 15:13:38 <jgarzik> the kernel does have an internal get-hardware-rng-bytes call. /dev/random does a long of mixing. rngd does FIPS testing and is a scheduled process. a lot of parts and details flying around in the air. :)
1057 2013-08-12 15:13:51 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: /dev/random DOES do a lot of mixing
1058 2013-08-12 15:13:52 <jgarzik> notably, if the hardware RNG goes south and returns all zero or all-fffff
1059 2013-08-12 15:14:00 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: but its not an infinite source
1060 2013-08-12 15:14:01 <jgarzik> you want to notice those simple cases
1061 2013-08-12 15:14:09 <Diablo-D3> thats what urandom is for
1062 2013-08-12 15:14:10 <gmaxwell> (or all 0101...)
1063 2013-08-12 15:14:32 <TD> yea
1064 2013-08-12 15:14:46 <gmaxwell> (which is the failure mode of most hardware that does simple unbiasing)
1065 2013-08-12 15:15:11 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah but
1066 2013-08-12 15:15:22 <Diablo-D3> that has to come up occasionally normally
1067 2013-08-12 15:15:50 <gmaxwell> yes, the fips tests run on a rather big block of data, the rate of false positives is fairly low.
1068 2013-08-12 15:15:50 <jgarzik> TD, if you use an ATA device or any ethernet (not wireless) NIC, you are running kernel code I wrote
1069 2013-08-12 15:16:16 <Diablo-D3> yeah jgarzik is a real dev =P
1070 2013-08-12 15:18:25 <TD> yeah
1071 2013-08-12 15:18:26 <TD> well
1072 2013-08-12 15:18:31 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1073 2013-08-12 15:18:34 <TD> if you load an adsense ad into your browser, you're running code i wrote ;)
1074 2013-08-12 15:18:42 * TD waves his dick around like a boss
1075 2013-08-12 15:19:00 <Diablo-D3> well thats simple
1076 2013-08-12 15:19:03 <Diablo-D3> I use adp.
1077 2013-08-12 15:19:12 <TD> but yeah it was funny to see your name in rngd. too bad android doesn't use it ...
1078 2013-08-12 15:19:22 <Diablo-D3> er abp
1079 2013-08-12 15:19:41 <TD> heh
1080 2013-08-12 15:19:46 Subo1977_ has joined
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1082 2013-08-12 15:19:57 <Diablo-D3> seriously, google ads suck
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1084 2013-08-12 15:20:14 <jgarzik> FWIW, I tend to like multi-level RNG solutions
1085 2013-08-12 15:20:30 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: well, its a good idea either way, more random input is always better
1086 2013-08-12 15:20:33 <jgarzik> get entropy from the kernel, process counters and other locations, and mix it yourself in an app-internal RNG
1087 2013-08-12 15:20:37 <TD> i've stopped trusting them
1088 2013-08-12 15:20:44 <TD> i've seen too many userspace RNGs that just break things instead of making them better
1089 2013-08-12 15:20:49 <TD> reading /dev/urandom is fast. one syscall. big deal.
1090 2013-08-12 15:20:56 <jgarzik> nod
1091 2013-08-12 15:20:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thats a ducky plan, except a lot of app writers don't have the time or the background to do that safely.
1092 2013-08-12 15:21:07 darkee has joined
1093 2013-08-12 15:21:10 <jgarzik> and a fair point
1094 2013-08-12 15:21:12 <TD> i really wonder why openssl even has its own entropy pool on linux. AFAICT it just opens up the potential for errors.
1095 2013-08-12 15:21:20 <gmaxwell> and you get things like %128 on bytes fed through libc's random(). :P
1096 2013-08-12 15:21:33 <jgarzik> I'm just overly paranoid about single-source
1097 2013-08-12 15:21:46 <TD> looks like btcguild is maxing out its blocks
1098 2013-08-12 15:21:51 <gmaxwell> TD: portablity, and performance.
1099 2013-08-12 15:21:55 <Diablo-D3> TD: honestly, I dont know why openssl is even still around
1100 2013-08-12 15:22:08 <Diablo-D3> I mean, there arent "better" ssl frameworks out there
1101 2013-08-12 15:22:14 <TD> gmaxwell: i wonder if it's really so much faster ..... syscalls are so fast these days on good hardware.
1102 2013-08-12 15:22:21 <Diablo-D3> but other frameworks are better licensed and have saner code
1103 2013-08-12 15:22:24 <gmaxwell> TD: see also the fun last year with embedded linux devices where /dev/random was determinstic. :(
1104 2013-08-12 15:22:26 <Diablo-D3> even if they cant do everything openssl does
1105 2013-08-12 15:22:56 <TD> for embedded devices, i can well believe it. hardware RNG is essential there.
1106 2013-08-12 15:23:44 <handle> I'm actually quite surprised most devices don't have a hardware RNG
1107 2013-08-12 15:24:03 <Diablo-D3> handle: intel is trying to change that
1108 2013-08-12 15:24:11 <CodeShark> they've been trying for quite some time
1109 2013-08-12 15:24:13 <Diablo-D3> sandy bridge and up? ivy bridge? have hw rngs
1110 2013-08-12 15:24:18 <handle> that said, there are many potential sources of entropy on a phone, considering how many sensors there are
1111 2013-08-12 15:24:22 <CodeShark> finally they are putting it into the CPU
1112 2013-08-12 15:24:23 <TD> hmmm. is there a way via RPC to see the priority and such of every tx in the mempool?
1113 2013-08-12 15:24:30 <handle> Diablo-D3: yeah, I use the RNG on my box and it's really nice
1114 2013-08-12 15:24:35 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: putting it into the cpu fixes shit
1115 2013-08-12 15:24:41 <Diablo-D3> like putting all the VRMs into haswell
1116 2013-08-12 15:25:03 <Diablo-D3> means about 90% less shit a mobo can fuck up that involves the part of the board near the cpu
1117 2013-08-12 15:26:29 <gmaxwell> handle: estimating their entropy is harder. Linux kernel rng lost a lot of its randomness sources due to concern that the sources weren't all that random.
1118 2013-08-12 15:26:30 <jgarzik> TD, where "maxing out their blocks" == 500k?
1119 2013-08-12 15:26:35 <TD> jgarzik: it'd be nice if there was a way to change command line parameters at runtime
1120 2013-08-12 15:26:36 <TD> jgarzik: yeah
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1122 2013-08-12 15:26:59 <handle> gmaxwell: yeah
1123 2013-08-12 15:27:00 <jgarzik> TD, (re cmd line) you talking about rngd or bitcoind?
1124 2013-08-12 15:27:14 <TD> bitcoind
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1127 2013-08-12 15:27:42 <gmaxwell> TD: IIRC there is some code to log the priorities but it's hidden behind a switch or commeted out or something.
1128 2013-08-12 15:27:47 <TD> yeah -printpriorities
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1130 2013-08-12 15:27:59 <gmaxwell> Luke has a patch to let you rpc set priorities which is pretty nice (as a miner, at least)
1131 2013-08-12 15:28:24 <gmaxwell> also, wizkid057/luke do generally take requests to bump up specific transactions.
1132 2013-08-12 15:28:38 <gmaxwell> though thats only a few percent of hashrate.
1133 2013-08-12 15:29:02 <TD> i'm more interested in improving my understanding at the moment
1134 2013-08-12 15:29:22 <gmaxwell> Though, uh, if this android wallet sweeping stuff is not doing size proportional fees, then thats not going to get processed too quickly I expect. Miners priortize fee bearing transactions in order of fee per kb.
1135 2013-08-12 15:29:27 <TD> e.g. there are 2000 txns in my mempool, a block gets 200 put in. so what happened to the other 90%. if i set the block size to X, how many would get in, etc.
1136 2013-08-12 15:29:29 * CodeShark considers writing a tool to display mempool transactions and dependencies
1137 2013-08-12 15:29:36 <TD> it pays the min fee * kilobytes
1138 2013-08-12 15:29:39 <TD> so it's size proportional
1139 2013-08-12 15:29:41 <gmaxwell> cool.
1140 2013-08-12 15:29:43 <TD> CodeShark: pleeeeeeeeeease :)
1141 2013-08-12 15:29:55 <TD> did anyone else get a rather phishy-looking mail that claims to be from theymos just now?
1142 2013-08-12 15:30:27 <gmaxwell> Nope.
1143 2013-08-12 15:31:04 <TD> it's begging for donations and has a static address in it. god, payment protocol can't come soon enough
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1146 2013-08-12 15:32:23 <gmaxwell> he's about the last person I'd expect to see with beg emails.
1147 2013-08-12 15:32:48 <TD> exactly
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1150 2013-08-12 15:34:11 <TD> besides, i know theymos is sitting on a massive pile of funds for the forum. it has no need for any further funding
1151 2013-08-12 15:34:40 <gmaxwell> Yea thats what I mean mostly.
1152 2013-08-12 15:35:17 <gmaxwell> hopefully all forum members will get passes to the forum owned space station after bitcoin really takes off. :P
1153 2013-08-12 15:36:08 <Cusipzzz> lol
1154 2013-08-12 15:37:03 <gmaxwell> wait. I don't think I'd want to be locked in a flying can with these people. Nevermind!
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1166 2013-08-12 15:50:43 <petertodd> TD
1167 2013-08-12 15:50:53 <TD> petertodd
1168 2013-08-12 15:50:53 <petertodd> TD: my mempool patch actually does pretty close to that, shows fee/kb
1169 2013-08-12 15:50:57 <TD> nice
1170 2013-08-12 15:51:09 <petertodd> TD: had to include that for debugging after all...
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1174 2013-08-12 15:52:50 <petertodd> the bitcointalk donations fund is damn near big enough to hire a developer to make a distributed bitcointalk from the sounds of it
1175 2013-08-12 15:53:48 <Cusipzzz> big enough * 3, it's huge.
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1179 2013-08-12 16:00:45 <maaku> anyone know if there are homomorphic encryption schemes for elliptic curve?
1180 2013-08-12 16:00:56 <maaku> i'm trying to figure out a way to do something like this : http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~shieber/Biblio/Papers/icec06.pdf
1181 2013-08-12 16:01:07 <sipa> for linear transformations :)
1182 2013-08-12 16:01:35 <gmaxwell> sure. pretty easy to do some homomorphic encryption things with ecc.
1183 2013-08-12 16:01:49 <gmaxwell> like if you want to encrypt points and then decrypt them in any order you like.
1184 2013-08-12 16:01:58 <gmaxwell> and ... um. thats about it.
1185 2013-08-12 16:02:00 <gmaxwell> :P
1186 2013-08-12 16:02:20 <maaku> so no, then :P
1187 2013-08-12 16:02:27 <gmaxwell> maaku: but why care about ECC? a secure auction thing doesn't have to use bitcoin's curve.
1188 2013-08-12 16:02:39 <maaku> speed
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1190 2013-08-12 16:02:48 <TD> FHE is slow
1191 2013-08-12 16:02:52 <TD> no way around that currently
1192 2013-08-12 16:02:55 <TD> paillier is faster
1193 2013-08-12 16:03:42 <maaku> i'm trying to find a minimal way to extend the bitcoin scripting language to support these auctions
1194 2013-08-12 16:03:47 <maaku> TD: the paper uses paillier
1195 2013-08-12 16:04:03 <gmaxwell> maaku: Thats probably not a grand idea.
1196 2013-08-12 16:04:11 <maaku> not for bitcoin, but for a side-chain
1197 2013-08-12 16:04:23 <gmaxwell> Usually you can do things external to the transactions, but then have a simple binding.
1198 2013-08-12 16:04:30 t7 has joined
1199 2013-08-12 16:04:33 <gmaxwell> And chains are seldom the right way to express a distributed system. :P
1200 2013-08-12 16:04:34 <maaku> side-chain and/or bitmessage like system, for transmitting bids and reporting results
1201 2013-08-12 16:05:16 <maaku> yeah maybe not, this is still exploratory...
1202 2013-08-12 16:05:59 <gmaxwell> probably the most important thing to do is try something out and publish some code. If you do that maybe you'll change the norms and other people working on these things will publish code too.
1203 2013-08-12 16:06:16 oru has joined
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1206 2013-08-12 16:07:06 <gmaxwell> It's seriously screwed up, in my opinion, that I can't just go grab some code off freshmeat, say â and conduct a secure secret ballot election with my friends on IRC. ... lots of great protocols for things have been described, but implementations â even unfriendly onesâ are nonexistant.
1207 2013-08-12 16:07:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: As barbie says, math is hard.
1208 2013-08-12 16:08:00 <jgarzik> Whoops. Popped a breaker. Gotta turn off the least efficient miner for now (avalon #1).
1209 2013-08-12 16:08:06 <gmaxwell> hahah
1210 2013-08-12 16:08:17 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You see the same thing with CAD software, both mechanical and electrical.
1211 2013-08-12 16:08:21 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, "rebalancing the circuts dance" time.
1212 2013-08-12 16:08:31 <jgarzik> Was accompanied by a *foomp* sound, suspiciously like a flame-related sound perhaps.
1213 2013-08-12 16:08:43 <jgarzik> Nothing /smells/ burnt...
1214 2013-08-12 16:08:46 * petertodd wishes he had to rebalance circuits for his mining rig...
1215 2013-08-12 16:08:58 <petertodd> jgarzik: circuit breakers do that when they pop under load, no big deal
1216 2013-08-12 16:09:00 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it's normal for the breakers to make a foomp.
1217 2013-08-12 16:09:19 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, it's a persistant crackle that you should be worried about...
1218 2013-08-12 16:09:28 <jgarzik> and associated smoke ;p
1219 2013-08-12 16:09:37 <Cusipzzz> if no ball of flame came down the hallway, you should be ok
1220 2013-08-12 16:09:47 <gmaxwell> this is how you end up with miners in three rooms of your house.
1221 2013-08-12 16:10:00 <petertodd> Cusipzzz: I'm sure jgarzik cares more about the miners...
1222 2013-08-12 16:10:54 <petertodd> TD: you know, getblocktemplate does what you want re: tx's actually...
1223 2013-08-12 16:11:15 <jgarzik> Although this would be quite inefficient, mining is still profitable enough to rent a crappy out-of-town apartment for each 1-2 miners
1224 2013-08-12 16:11:21 <jgarzik> distributed data center
1225 2013-08-12 16:12:26 <gmaxwell> ::knock:: ::knock:: "Free heater installation crew, reporting for your install!" "Uh, but I didn't order a heater!" "It's free!"
1226 2013-08-12 16:12:44 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/philipl/pifs
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1228 2013-08-12 16:12:45 <maaku> gmaxwell: agreed. i was hesitant to work on something
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1230 2013-08-12 16:13:00 <maaku> something where there wasn't already good crypto
1231 2013-08-12 16:13:28 <jgarzik> need a good mining-over-unreliable connections (3G/4G) protocol, something less connection-oriented than stratum
1232 2013-08-12 16:13:37 <maaku> but maybe I should just publish something with warnings not to use it, and let people rip it apart to make it better
1233 2013-08-12 16:13:39 <jgarzik> to avoid having to run wires
1234 2013-08-12 16:13:48 <TD> petertodd: well yeah, not exactly easy to work with though :)
1235 2013-08-12 16:13:54 <gmaxwell> maaku: a lot of papers have been written on all sorts of neat things in this space (elections and auctions are closely related problems), so no shortage of things to try.
1236 2013-08-12 16:14:19 <gmaxwell> maaku: a lot of people aren't even aware of what is possible, more could probably get done if people's eyes were opened to the possibilities.
1237 2013-08-12 16:14:31 <jgarzik> maaku, auctions would be a great problem to solve
1238 2013-08-12 16:14:38 <TD> hmm, odd
1239 2013-08-12 16:14:49 <TD> i set my blockmaxsize to 1mb and the biggest block it'll make is 423kb
1240 2013-08-12 16:15:10 <jgarzik> essentially the bidder needs to escrow some funds, and a notary must timestamp/verify highest bids, and end of auction.
1241 2013-08-12 16:15:19 <maaku> jgarzik: http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~shieber/Biblio/Papers/icec06.pdf
1242 2013-08-12 16:15:24 <maaku> jgarzik: http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/econcs/pubs/fc_ccpa.pdf
1243 2013-08-12 16:15:24 <jgarzik> and the latter must stand up to end-of-auction assault.
1244 2013-08-12 16:15:41 <maaku> as far as I can tell, those both pretty well solve auctions for practical applications
1245 2013-08-12 16:15:44 <jgarzik> you can always make a centralized auction robot, but how to decentralize?
1246 2013-08-12 16:16:12 <maaku> jgarzik: hence my interest in adding the homomorphic encryption necessary to support these in bitcoin scripts
1247 2013-08-12 16:16:39 <maaku> jtimon and I already have a proposal that adds english, dutch and double auctions
1248 2013-08-12 16:16:41 * jgarzik is far from convinced that is the direction to go
1249 2013-08-12 16:16:48 <nsh> gmaxwell, you want a secure decentralized multiparty computation framework?
1250 2013-08-12 16:17:11 <nsh> i'll see what i can knock up over the weekend lol
1251 2013-08-12 16:17:15 <maaku> this would add vickrey auctions
1252 2013-08-12 16:17:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, (RE opened to possibilities) that's why I think demos are now important. People just don't know what's possible, or don't understand how to accomplish these things discussed in academic papers or wiki.
1253 2013-08-12 16:17:55 <jgarzik> a simple 100-line demo of a concept can go a long way, IMO
1254 2013-08-12 16:18:10 <jgarzik> (though certainly auctions are far more than 100 lines)
1255 2013-08-12 16:19:00 <maaku> jgarzik: it's more of a zerocoin-like addition. way too big to ever become part of bitcoin core
1256 2013-08-12 16:19:18 <maaku> but you could have an auction side-chain and use cross-chain trade to settle
1257 2013-08-12 16:19:42 <gmaxwell> gah with the "chain"s.
1258 2013-08-12 16:19:52 <gmaxwell> There isn't a need to invoke chains for everything. :P
1259 2013-08-12 16:20:42 <gmaxwell> and the best evidence available (altcoins) suggests that blockchain consensus sidechains are unlikely to provide (much?) security.
1260 2013-08-12 16:20:57 <maaku> gmaxwell: agreed in principle, but how do you get people to commit their bids before the auction closes?
1261 2013-08-12 16:21:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, nonetheless it is a useful decentralized, replicated database system :)
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1263 2013-08-12 16:21:27 <gmaxwell> maaku: the person with the goods under auction timestamps blinded bids.
1264 2013-08-12 16:21:27 <jgarzik> massively replicated, eventual consistency, with built-in numeric tokens
1265 2013-08-12 16:21:57 <gmaxwell> maaku: the bids are unsealed after the deadline.
1266 2013-08-12 16:22:07 <Cusipzzz> ...until NY state shuts it down :)
1267 2013-08-12 16:23:38 <jgarzik> need RPC ProveIControlABalance($amount), that spits out a signed message covering sufficient txouts/keys for $amount
1268 2013-08-12 16:23:45 <gmaxwell> maaku: another form (that also works for elections) is you agree on bidders in advance, and restart the auction if a bidder drops out. Not quite the same thing as an open ended auction that runs for days, but also a potential model.
1269 2013-08-12 16:23:51 <jgarzik> maybe associated with lockunspent use
1270 2013-08-12 16:23:53 <maaku> jgarzik: working on that ;)
1271 2013-08-12 16:24:29 <jgarzik> also, lockunspent needs wallet support for persistance
1272 2013-08-12 16:25:08 <gmaxwell> yea, non-persistance of that is a bit lameo. also it needs labels on the locks if its persistant.
1273 2013-08-12 16:25:26 <maaku> gmaxwell: yes but I think we're saying the same thing, except that I would prefer a solution with bid privacy (hence the homomorphic encryption)
1274 2013-08-12 16:25:31 <gmaxwell> but we don't even have coin control merged yet. :(
1275 2013-08-12 16:25:40 <gmaxwell> Did we lose all our GUI contributors? :(
1276 2013-08-12 16:25:50 <jgarzik> ok maybe RPC "reservebalance" which locks coins, and spits out signed proofs
1277 2013-08-12 16:26:00 <jgarzik> unlock at any time
1278 2013-08-12 16:26:01 <maaku> but the issue is how do you get the bidders to pre-sign the transaction sending funds to the seller, but only have the highest bid's signature be valid after the auction?
1279 2013-08-12 16:26:07 <helo> TIL lockunspent
1280 2013-08-12 16:26:22 <jgarzik> maaku, indeed
1281 2013-08-12 16:26:28 <jgarzik> maaku, that is a core problem
1282 2013-08-12 16:26:39 <gmaxwell> maaku: I answered this above.
1283 2013-08-12 16:27:00 paracyst has joined
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1285 2013-08-12 16:27:40 <maaku> gmaxwell: in the system you outlined they still have to settle though, right?
1286 2013-08-12 16:27:41 <gmaxwell> hm. I can't find it in my log. In any case, you have all of the transactions including a single txout.
1287 2013-08-12 16:27:51 <gmaxwell> so only one can be valid.
1288 2013-08-12 16:28:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I can't find it in log either
1289 2013-08-12 16:28:22 <maaku> ah, ok
1290 2013-08-12 16:28:31 <gmaxwell> I don't even see where jeff was asking about auctions. Oh well.
1291 2013-08-12 16:28:47 <gmaxwell> maaku: really easy to get transaction mutual exclusion. :)
1292 2013-08-12 16:28:56 <maaku> yes :)
1293 2013-08-12 16:28:56 <TD> yeah. so to get 1mb blocks i have to set both blockmaxsize and blockminsize
1294 2013-08-12 16:28:58 <maaku> simple ;)
1295 2013-08-12 16:29:01 ThomasV has joined
1296 2013-08-12 16:29:10 <maaku> TD: accepting enough free transactions?
1297 2013-08-12 16:29:31 <gmaxwell> TD: are there just not enough non 'zero' fee transactions to get you over 490k or whatever?
1298 2013-08-12 16:29:46 <helo> gmaxwell: where does the txout come from? and what keeps the txout from being spent out from under everyone, invalidating all of the transactions?
1299 2013-08-12 16:30:02 <gmaxwell> helo: created by the party auctioning the thing.
1300 2013-08-12 16:30:25 <TD> not sure
1301 2013-08-12 16:30:28 <maaku> helo's 2nd problem still applies...
1302 2013-08-12 16:30:30 <TD> could be the case
1303 2013-08-12 16:30:36 <gmaxwell> helo: and the bid txouts are multisign with the auctioning party, if you like.
1304 2013-08-12 16:30:38 <helo> so if the party didn't get a satisfactorily high bid, they could invalidate the auction and keep the goods?
1305 2013-08-12 16:30:54 <petertodd> TD: I can give you my code to rick-roll the blockchain if you can't fill your block up
1306 2013-08-12 16:30:54 <gmaxwell> helo: they could always do that. you can't make them not keep the goods.
1307 2013-08-12 16:30:55 <maaku> or at least a notary/escrow service
1308 2013-08-12 16:30:59 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> gmaxwell, petertodd, TD: Has anyone mapped out a model for a zero-trust, or low-trust, decentralized auction? That's one problem I would love to solve without a centralized website.
1309 2013-08-12 16:31:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: depends: what is being sold?
1310 2013-08-12 16:31:29 <maaku> well unless the goods themselves are on-chain (colored coins)
1311 2013-08-12 16:31:45 <nsh> petertodd, illegal drugs and your stuff that was stolen the other week
1312 2013-08-12 16:31:55 <nsh> (it doesn't matter)
1313 2013-08-12 16:32:06 <nsh> if someone solves the problem there's no way of restricting what people use it for
1314 2013-08-12 16:32:17 <helo> escrow seems to just be too much of a hassle for most uses... and colored coin isn't popular because intellgent property isn't yet a thing
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1316 2013-08-12 16:32:35 <petertodd> right, which indicates it's not going to be zero trust, because you have to trust that the seller will ship
1317 2013-08-12 16:32:46 * nsh nods
1318 2013-08-12 16:32:57 <jgarzik> OK, I guess I was thinking of half-trust: seller must be trusted to deliver X, but wants to be /guaranteed/ payment at end of auction.
1319 2013-08-12 16:33:00 <nsh> zero trust in the integrity of the auction, not its bindingness on the seller
1320 2013-08-12 16:33:02 <gmaxwell> maaku: alternatively you just do the entire auction under secure group computation, and the result is the single atomic signed transaction to the highest bidder. I dunno what the state of that is beyond proved to be possible to do. :P
1321 2013-08-12 16:33:10 <maaku> helo: it could be an automatic thing if there's a crypto auction protocol
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1323 2013-08-12 16:33:20 <helo> the WoT needs to get all distributed-like already...
1324 2013-08-12 16:33:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell's thing sounds fine: one tx is guaranteed to finish, modulo double-spends, and it's compatible with scorched earth replace-by-fee so that's not a big deal
1325 2013-08-12 16:33:30 <nsh> s/in/for/
1326 2013-08-12 16:33:59 <petertodd> seems to me the main security risk is someone with a lower bid trying to block someone with a higher bid
1327 2013-08-12 16:34:11 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you can prevent the doublespends by escrowing the candidate funds with a anti-doublespending agent that has a timeout.
1328 2013-08-12 16:34:29 <helo> without a decentralized reliable WoT identity system, distributed "anything requiring trust" seems unworkable.
1329 2013-08-12 16:34:40 <gmaxwell> WoT == LoL
1330 2013-08-12 16:34:42 <maaku> gmaxwell: the papers I linked to do secure computation to determine winning bids, and release a proof while keeping the bids encrypted
1331 2013-08-12 16:34:52 <petertodd> helo: we've kinda got one of those: fidelity bonds
1332 2013-08-12 16:35:01 <gmaxwell> maaku: I know, it's like secret ballot elections.
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1335 2013-08-12 16:35:17 <maaku> it avoids group computation because a bidder could be incentivised to refuse to take part in order to halt the process (maybe they think they won't win)
1336 2013-08-12 16:35:18 <petertodd> maaku: so they are solving transparency issues?
1337 2013-08-12 16:35:27 <maaku> petertodd: yes
1338 2013-08-12 16:35:53 <gmaxwell> maaku: what would their incentive be to halt if they've learned nothing new? (other than a dos attack)
1339 2013-08-12 16:36:10 <maaku> the idea is you run an auction, and only the auctioneer knows who bid and how much, but everyone can verify the winner
1340 2013-08-12 16:36:37 <petertodd> maaku: so transparency == I know that my bid was counted fairly, and the other bidders were fair as well? (IE they aren't fake bids?)
1341 2013-08-12 16:36:49 <maaku> petertodd: yes
1342 2013-08-12 16:36:54 <gmaxwell> helo: talk to me about wot when known thieves aren't highly rated on bitcoin-otc's WOT, e.g. http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=aethero
1343 2013-08-12 16:37:02 <maaku> and you assume they aren't fake bids because the auctioneer doesn't know the bids until after the last bid comes in
1344 2013-08-12 16:37:10 <maaku> so they don't have enough info to create shill bids
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1346 2013-08-12 16:37:35 <petertodd> maaku: heh, funny how time-lock encryption would make that so easy
1347 2013-08-12 16:37:56 <helo> gmaxwell: he's 0 level 1 trust, -2 level 2 trust for me
1348 2013-08-12 16:38:22 <helo> gmaxwell: the absolute value of ratings in WoT is pretty meaningless... gettrust ftw
1349 2013-08-12 16:38:45 <maaku> petertodd: that what it is
1350 2013-08-12 16:38:50 <maaku> (time lock encryption)
1351 2013-08-12 16:39:03 <gmaxwell> helo: yes, but he's only that after I made a pretty concerted effort to get that fixed. He's still + gettrust for lots of othe people.
1352 2013-08-12 16:39:13 <petertodd> maaku: oh, crazy, so how does that work?
1353 2013-08-12 16:39:35 agricocb has joined
1354 2013-08-12 16:39:55 <maaku> bids are serialized by the timestamper, encrypted to a target cutoff date
1355 2013-08-12 16:40:24 <maaku> well, encrypted twice : once to the auctioneer, once to the timestamper
1356 2013-08-12 16:40:31 <petertodd> maaku: right, so there is a trusted third party
1357 2013-08-12 16:40:49 <maaku> well, so long as the auctioneer != timestamper
1358 2013-08-12 16:41:04 <helo> gmaxwell: the basic premise of using reliable trust relationships to evaluate the trust of unknown parties seems workable enough
1359 2013-08-12 16:41:07 <petertodd> yeah, not exactly magical
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1361 2013-08-12 16:41:38 <gmaxwell> meh, well you can replace the timestamper with all of the bidders... it just creates a dos attack risk, but if the system prevents bidders from learning anything new after the start, it really is only a dos attack.
1362 2013-08-12 16:41:40 <petertodd> you could probably just fidelity bond participants to release their encryption keys at the end of the auction
1363 2013-08-12 16:41:53 <maaku> the 2nd part is slightly more magical, where the auctioneer builds a ZKP that the winning bidder is the winning bidder, without revealing any of the other bids
1364 2013-08-12 16:42:17 <gmaxwell> petertodd: right, exactly. But if the bidders learn about the auction as it goes, then they may selectively DOS which is bad, even if they're bonded.
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1367 2013-08-12 16:43:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: just release the encryption keys via the blockchain, easy enough
1368 2013-08-12 16:43:07 * petertodd ducks
1369 2013-08-12 16:43:27 <gmaxwell> maaku: yea, thats cool. I've wanted to do one of those for elections which tells you which decision is in the majority, but doesn't tell you the actual vote break down. (because in small elections the risk of disclosing all votes through a near unanimous decision is high)
1370 2013-08-12 16:43:32 * gmaxwell stabs
1371 2013-08-12 16:43:48 <maaku> petertodd: which is why i mentioned a side-chain in the first place
1372 2013-08-12 16:43:49 * maaku evades
1373 2013-08-12 16:44:24 <gmaxwell> you really don't need a chain there. they have some way to talk.. talk.. tada.
1374 2013-08-12 16:47:07 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1378 2013-08-12 16:53:47 <maaku> well in either case, elections or auctions, this sounds like something SCIP could provide...
1379 2013-08-12 16:54:24 <gmaxwell> well, group computation. SCIP doesn't generally work where you need secrecy from the computing (or all) parties. :P
1380 2013-08-12 16:54:50 <gmaxwell> though it does potentially give you a tool to tie whatever computation you're doing back to transactions. :P
1381 2013-08-12 16:54:51 <petertodd> Suppose we added a CREATEPUBKEY opcode that took <privkey> and produced <pubkey>. I could write "CREATEPUBKEY <pubkey> EQUAL" as a script - is it possible to create a pubkey for a standard field (say secp256k1) that is delibrately weakened in a way that is provable?
1382 2013-08-12 16:55:45 stalled has joined
1383 2013-08-12 16:56:03 <gmaxwell> if you're trying to timelock that way, even if you canâ you can't prove how fast your other people can solve your weakened keys.
1384 2013-08-12 16:56:17 <gmaxwell> (or at least not a lower bound on how much time it might take them)
1385 2013-08-12 16:56:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you can use SCIP of course, to make very expensive to prove proofs that a key is weak. :P
1386 2013-08-12 16:57:11 <petertodd> Of course not, but with tx's that are nLockTime'd (or similar) I can play with economic incentives. (assuming value of txout >> value of my specific application)
1387 2013-08-12 16:57:22 <gmaxwell> or you can use a interactive zero knoweldge proof to show that a key is probably weak.
1388 2013-08-12 16:57:49 <gmaxwell> (e.g. I commit to 100,000 keys, and you pick one for me not to reveal to you...)
1389 2013-08-12 16:57:53 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1390 2013-08-12 16:57:57 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1391 2013-08-12 16:58:18 <petertodd> oh.... and that would mean it could be done as just a hash of the privkey, which means it can be a standard script
1392 2013-08-12 16:58:37 tnkflx has joined
1393 2013-08-12 16:59:18 dermoth has quit (home!~thomas@dsl-216-221-57-55.mtl.aei.ca|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1394 2013-08-12 16:59:22 <gmaxwell> yea, as usual. :P
1395 2013-08-12 16:59:24 <petertodd> So I would create a whole bunch of privkeys using some weak method, commit to them, reveal n, and then create scripts that are spendable if you provide the privkeys that hash to some digest.
1396 2013-08-12 16:59:52 malaimo has joined
1397 2013-08-12 17:00:30 <maaku> gmaxwell: i was thinking SCIP for validating the auction/election results - bidders use an SCIP script that checks "am i the winner?" from the results
1398 2013-08-12 17:00:34 <petertodd> Basically I'm proving it's worth your while to work on the problems, although better is a weak pubkey generated via nothing-up-my-sleeve so no-one has the privkeys without doing the work.
1399 2013-08-12 17:02:22 Odyessus has joined
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1401 2013-08-12 17:05:33 normanrichards has joined
1402 2013-08-12 17:06:52 <gmaxwell> ah, good, problems of people trying to store their data in the blockchain solved: https://github.com/philipl/pifs
1403 2013-08-12 17:07:27 <TD> lol
1404 2013-08-12 17:07:42 <petertodd> nice! now I only have to store the indexes in the blockchain!
1405 2013-08-12 17:08:32 <gmaxwell> (I'd actually written up a good chunk of a joke submission to the NIST hash competition based on using pihex as a one way function. but got stuck on one of my security proofs and never finished it)
1406 2013-08-12 17:09:24 Applicat_ has joined
1407 2013-08-12 17:09:34 <gmaxwell> oh they're only using bytes, lame.
1408 2013-08-12 17:09:44 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1409 2013-08-12 17:09:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: so use your message as the index and your digest is the n-bits calculated via https://github.com/philipl/pifs
1410 2013-08-12 17:10:00 <petertodd> via BaileyâBorweinâPlouffe formula?
1411 2013-08-12 17:11:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea. basically (I'd actually embeded it in a fiestel structure, and was trying for a proof that you couldn't invert the one way function faster than enumeration unless pi had special structure.
1412 2013-08-12 17:11:14 dermoth has joined
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1414 2013-08-12 17:12:24 agricocb has joined
1415 2013-08-12 17:12:26 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1416 2013-08-12 17:13:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: good job
1417 2013-08-12 17:14:02 Namworld has joined
1418 2013-08-12 17:14:44 <petertodd> so... why the !@#$ does BaileyâBorweinâPlouffe work?
1419 2013-08-12 17:16:17 <gmaxwell> pretty crazy, enh? :P Pi is a CSPRNG. :P
1420 2013-08-12 17:16:44 <gmaxwell> (or, rather, the output of one!)
1421 2013-08-12 17:16:59 <TD> https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet-Android/commit/488aec5bd7e0f903a5f2f75a5ed40e1729a4c9e6#commitcomment-3840963
1422 2013-08-12 17:17:15 <TD> seems blockchain.info wallet is going to XOR /dev/urandom with data obtained by downloading a page on random.org
1423 2013-08-12 17:17:38 <jgarzik> bleh
1424 2013-08-12 17:17:42 <jgarzik> plenty of local entropy available
1425 2013-08-12 17:17:58 <TD> we hope :)
1426 2013-08-12 17:18:00 <petertodd> TD: ...
1427 2013-08-12 17:18:11 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, I'd commented on this before. though I think I missed that it was random.org
1428 2013-08-12 17:18:12 <petertodd> Heck, tell the user to take a photo...
1429 2013-08-12 17:18:13 <TD> that said, downloading random data from random.org is kind of ..... hmm
1430 2013-08-12 17:18:28 <gmaxwell> Seperately I'd commented before that buying random.org would be a good investment
1431 2013-08-12 17:18:42 <gmaxwell> (it seems a _lot_ of bitcoin gambling sites created by morons just use it directly)
1432 2013-08-12 17:18:45 <lianj> TD: indeed
1433 2013-08-12 17:18:48 <TD> ...
1434 2013-08-12 17:18:53 * TD has never heard of this site
1435 2013-08-12 17:19:16 <petertodd> lol
1436 2013-08-12 17:19:29 <gmaxwell> it uses super secret methods to make strong random numbers! you can tell by the domain name how good it is!
1437 2013-08-12 17:20:07 <gmaxwell> but seriously, I've encountered at least three bitcoin gambling sites using it. Bad ideas seem to have a kind of universality to them.
1438 2013-08-12 17:20:20 <petertodd> Madness...
1439 2013-08-12 17:20:22 <TD> hardware RNGs really aren't supposed to be that rare
1440 2013-08-12 17:20:32 <TD> do these sites run on VPS providers that don't provide access to good entropy or something?
1441 2013-08-12 17:20:43 <petertodd> We've got stacks of the god-damn things: they're called microphones, cameras, acellerometers...
1442 2013-08-12 17:20:47 <gmaxwell> I mean, for all this stuff you don't even need "real" randomness, you need cryptographically strong randomness.
1443 2013-08-12 17:21:14 <jgarzik> most modern VPS's should be using some variant of virtio-rng, a simple tunnel to the host
1444 2013-08-12 17:21:28 <handle> TD: oh my god I thought you were joking
1445 2013-08-12 17:21:29 <handle> @ the random.org
1446 2013-08-12 17:21:30 <jgarzik> but we all know Big VPS Providers and their ancient VMs
1447 2013-08-12 17:21:49 <petertodd> In all honesty for a VPS just doing cycle-accurate timing on incoming and outgoing network packets is actually a really good source - the attacker is probably not standing next to your server.
1448 2013-08-12 17:21:52 <maaku> TD: but still, you shouldn't trust the VPS's randomness if money (or the NSA) is on the line
1449 2013-08-12 17:21:54 <gmaxwell> TD: they're written by php coders. There actually _are_ problems with getting entropy in VPSes, but thats not their problem. Their problem is that they get far enough to find out that their library MT_rand() or LCG rand is not what they want... and ... random.org "I know how to get a url!"
1450 2013-08-12 17:21:55 <TD> http://www.irisa.fr/caps/projects/hipsor/
1451 2013-08-12 17:22:10 <maaku> but b.i has their own hosting...
1452 2013-08-12 17:22:23 <TD> maaku: this is being done on the phones
1453 2013-08-12 17:22:24 PrimeStunna has joined
1454 2013-08-12 17:22:37 <TD> it may be that ben doesn't trust /dev/random on android now either. can't say i blame him, really, though i am not aware of any issues with it
1455 2013-08-12 17:22:39 knotwork_ has joined
1456 2013-08-12 17:22:43 <petertodd> TD: heh, they could at least ask blockchain.info for the randomness...
1457 2013-08-12 17:22:54 <gmaxwell> if you google bitcon gambling "random.org" you'll find more (the places I'm referring to are other ones!)
1458 2013-08-12 17:22:56 <handle> but you lose the unpredictability
1459 2013-08-12 17:23:03 <TD> i guess any user can write to /dev/random
1460 2013-08-12 17:23:11 <maaku> well to be fair, it doesn't *hurt* to XOR random.org data
1461 2013-08-12 17:23:12 <TD> so the way i'd do it is have a thread that downloads from there and inserts into /dev/random
1462 2013-08-12 17:23:19 <TD> rather than try and mix it in after reading
1463 2013-08-12 17:23:30 <TD> yeah
1464 2013-08-12 17:23:33 <handle> maaku: it somewhat does, because then random.org controls a portion of your entropy
1465 2013-08-12 17:23:40 <gmaxwell> the problem with these stone soup methods is that they concel real flaws.
1466 2013-08-12 17:23:47 <TD> yeah
1467 2013-08-12 17:23:54 <TD> i've concluded treating PIDs as entropy is evil
1468 2013-08-12 17:24:04 <gmaxwell> if they were doing that before anyone at random.org could own up android wallets anytime they signed, but we'd have not seen the duplicate R values.
1469 2013-08-12 17:24:09 <jgarzik> TD, nod
1470 2013-08-12 17:24:11 <maaku> handle: i meant to imply that you don't count random.org towards your entropy
1471 2013-08-12 17:24:13 <gmaxwell> TD: yep. agreed.
1472 2013-08-12 17:24:36 <jgarzik> TD, any user may write, but it does not necessarily credit entropy bits inside the kernel
1473 2013-08-12 17:24:41 <gmaxwell> probably shouldn't add anything that has no hope of actually twarting an attacker.
1474 2013-08-12 17:24:49 <gmaxwell> you need a special sysctl to credit entropy.
1475 2013-08-12 17:24:57 <gmaxwell> and the stupid kernel pool is way too small.. oh well.
1476 2013-08-12 17:24:58 <jgarzik> ye
1477 2013-08-12 17:25:02 <jgarzik> s
1478 2013-08-12 17:25:03 <petertodd> TD: IMO the right was to do a PRNG is to use a language/toolkit where the actual data movement within the PRNG can be analyzed carefully - but PHP coders aren't going to do that
1479 2013-08-12 17:25:10 <TD> jgarzik: but it does get mixed in anyway?
1480 2013-08-12 17:25:21 <handle> gmaxwell: I think you can change the kernel entropy size
1481 2013-08-12 17:25:33 <gmaxwell> handle: no, you used to be able to.. but it was a local root exploit (doh)
1482 2013-08-12 17:25:36 <handle> pool size rather
1483 2013-08-12 17:25:38 <jgarzik> TD, there is a bit of stirring still, yes
1484 2013-08-12 17:25:42 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1485 2013-08-12 17:25:44 <handle> oh wow
1486 2013-08-12 17:25:46 <gmaxwell> handle: now you have to patch the kernel to change it.
1487 2013-08-12 17:25:56 <jgarzik> TD, you can stream 0's or f's as you like, that's a common test
1488 2013-08-12 17:26:01 <TD> how can that be a local root exploit?!
1489 2013-08-12 17:26:05 <handle> ^
1490 2013-08-12 17:26:11 <gmaxwell> TD: the code that resized it was broken.
1491 2013-08-12 17:26:21 <TD> so they just took out the code to resize it entirely?
1492 2013-08-12 17:26:24 <gmaxwell> this was like 5 years ago.
1493 2013-08-12 17:26:26 <gmaxwell> Yea.
1494 2013-08-12 17:26:29 <handle> set the max pool size to the sandman
1495 2013-08-12 17:26:40 <TD> great
1496 2013-08-12 17:26:44 <gmaxwell> "we're all doomed"
1497 2013-08-12 17:27:07 <handle> do you perchance remember the CVE?
1498 2013-08-12 17:27:31 <gmaxwell> and shortly after that there was a lot of action removing 'bad' entropy contributors.. so on headless systems you are _constantly_ starved of entropy. It actually creates frequent problems with slow ssh logins on systems using /dev/random for ssh.
1499 2013-08-12 17:27:37 <TD> i suppose the next round of interesting bugs can be of the form, "device vendor X wrote their kernel patches in such a way that there's hardly any hw entropy being collected" or something like that. possibly mixing in random.org isn't such a bad idea after all
1500 2013-08-12 17:27:38 <handle> I can't find it anywhere
1501 2013-08-12 17:27:52 <gmaxwell> I'll find it when I get back in a bit.
1502 2013-08-12 17:28:04 <handle> fair enough
1503 2013-08-12 17:28:13 <maaku> if anyone could contribute to /dev/random than it'd be trivial to compromise apps by 'yes | /dev/random'
1504 2013-08-12 17:28:13 <jgarzik> lacking virtio-rng or similar, finding entropy sources on VMs is tough
1505 2013-08-12 17:28:18 <gmaxwell> but yea, it's a mess.. the host I IRC from suffers from 1 second lags to ssh in unless a entropy gathering daemon is constantly running.
1506 2013-08-12 17:28:28 <lianj> TD: altgough maybe don't mix in random.org bytes directly
1507 2013-08-12 17:28:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: That people are using blocking /dev/random is maddening enough... And at a hardware level a *lot* of stuff is actually quite random due to the nuances of real physical circuits, so things you wouldn't expect to be decent random sources actually are.
1508 2013-08-12 17:28:59 <handle> ssh needs a constant source of entropy? I thought that was just for initialization
1509 2013-08-12 17:29:02 <TD> maaku: why? you can't reduce entropy that way
1510 2013-08-12 17:29:15 <TD> gmaxwell: you don't control the host? seems easy to repoint it at /dev/urandom
1511 2013-08-12 17:29:28 <handle> I think less security oriented hear the word "pseudorandom" and automatically assume "pseudosecurity" or something
1512 2013-08-12 17:29:38 <petertodd> handle: indeed
1513 2013-08-12 17:30:19 <petertodd> handle: Anyway, if your PRNG uses the same hash primitives you are using elsewhere, if it's broken everything is broken.
1514 2013-08-12 17:30:39 <handle> yeah pretty much
1515 2013-08-12 17:30:56 <petertodd> handle: You can quibble for really important long-term key generation and stuff, but for 99.9% of applications that statement is correct.
1516 2013-08-12 17:31:10 <handle> which on one hand is good (you can be fairly certain is secure) but on the other hand is bad (if someone breaks it, then the internet implodes)
1517 2013-08-12 17:31:55 <grau> TD: are details of the PRNG flaw disclosed? Is it vendor specific of general Android code?
1518 2013-08-12 17:31:56 <nsh> handle, https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/community/forums/html/topic?id=c52e31ff-247d-4e71-9748-ba87b6b1dd68
1519 2013-08-12 17:31:59 <handle> has anyone tested the randomness on the intel hardware RNGs?
1520 2013-08-12 17:32:12 * jgarzik kicks xchat
1521 2013-08-12 17:32:14 <nsh> (the workaround there will lower the security of your ssh sessions)
1522 2013-08-12 17:32:18 <TD> no
1523 2013-08-12 17:32:23 <TD> general android code
1524 2013-08-12 17:32:33 <grau> we are doomed
1525 2013-08-12 17:32:39 <handle> nsh: interesting
1526 2013-08-12 17:32:40 <petertodd> handle: they are designed in such a way that you can't - for all we know they are a PRNG with a counter
1527 2013-08-12 17:32:41 <jgarzik> Can someone please paste gmaxwell's only-one-tx-is-valid description from scrollback, RE auctions?
1528 2013-08-12 17:32:48 <jgarzik> stupid Apple
1529 2013-08-12 17:33:07 <handle> petertodd: that is true
1530 2013-08-12 17:33:24 <handle> still, I suppose running an rngd on my server cannot hurt
1531 2013-08-12 17:33:55 <grau> TD: the damage then is hardly limited to Bitcoin. It is just the system that created incentives to exploit it.
1532 2013-08-12 17:34:09 <TD> indeed
1533 2013-08-12 17:34:12 <petertodd> handle: yup, just don't rely on the intel hrng only... which the kernel used to it
1534 2013-08-12 17:34:26 * nsh installs and init-scripts rngd
1535 2013-08-12 17:34:39 <nsh> (had 137 from entropy_avail)
1536 2013-08-12 17:34:42 <handle> I prefer to ln -s /dev/random /dev/zero
1537 2013-08-12 17:34:45 <handle> for the best entropy
1538 2013-08-12 17:34:45 <petertodd> grau: guardian-dev people are talking about it on their mailing list for instance
1539 2013-08-12 17:35:08 <lianj> nsh: 137 can be totally fine
1540 2013-08-12 17:35:23 WhoKnew has joined
1541 2013-08-12 17:35:24 <handle> I assume that's measured in bytes?
1542 2013-08-12 17:35:28 <lianj> bits
1543 2013-08-12 17:35:28 <TD> bits!
1544 2013-08-12 17:35:35 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1545 2013-08-12 17:35:36 WhoKnew has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1546 2013-08-12 17:35:36 <handle> really? an odd number of bits?
1547 2013-08-12 17:35:45 <handle> interesting, but cool though
1548 2013-08-12 17:35:47 <TD> it's a wild guess, basically. that level seems to be normal-ish unfortunately. though some people have reported seeing more like 2kbits
1549 2013-08-12 17:35:57 <nsh> lianj, i'd prefer to err on the side of more entropy
1550 2013-08-12 17:36:03 <TD> from what i've read it's an estimate
1551 2013-08-12 17:37:09 <lianj> on small wifi routers i run haveged to get the last bytes out of wifi performance
1552 2013-08-12 17:37:12 <nsh> "I had normally between 100 and 200 - way way too low for many SSL processes to work efficiently." http://www.chrissearle.org/2008/10/13/Increase_entropy_on_a_2_6_kernel_linux_box/
1553 2013-08-12 17:37:29 <nsh> (i should note that i'm running almost all of my network use through tor on this box)
1554 2013-08-12 17:37:38 <nsh> (so that might be eating a lot of the entropy)
1555 2013-08-12 17:37:39 <TD> AFAICT there's a lot of heresay and urban legend going around about randomness on linux
1556 2013-08-12 17:37:50 <lianj> ack
1557 2013-08-12 17:37:51 <nsh> (often get SSL chunking problems when making a lot of requests)
1558 2013-08-12 17:38:16 Darwerft has quit (Quit: Soon to be back)
1559 2013-08-12 17:38:19 <nsh> i might attach a USB mouse to female clitoral stimulation device
1560 2013-08-12 17:38:38 Application has joined
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1562 2013-08-12 17:39:04 <petertodd> IIRC one of the OpenBSD doesn't even provide a blocking /dev/random, says a lot abotu which approach is right.
1563 2013-08-12 17:39:10 <Cusipzzz> just when you think you've seen everything in -dev
1564 2013-08-12 17:39:21 <TD> apparently only linux has a blocking /dev/random actually
1565 2013-08-12 17:39:22 * nsh reads http://hackaday.com/2010/02/06/hardware-based-randomness-for-linux/
1566 2013-08-12 17:39:24 <iwilcox> nsh: For kicks, or for entropy?
1567 2013-08-12 17:39:34 <TD> http://lwn.net/Articles/489734/
1568 2013-08-12 17:39:43 <nsh> iwilcox, you don't get sexual kicks from entropy? man, i thought we had an understand...
1569 2013-08-12 17:40:03 <TD> "mmm, wild and unpredictable, just what i love"
1570 2013-08-12 17:40:03 <iwilcox> Two very different kinds of kicks
1571 2013-08-12 17:40:07 <lianj> i found this development hack funny to get faster jvm bootup: java '-Djava.security.egd=file:/dev/./urandom' ^^
1572 2013-08-12 17:40:27 <Cusipzzz> new application for teledildonics
1573 2013-08-12 17:40:46 <sturles> This will make your SSL server go much faster under Linux!: rm /dev/urandom; mknod /dev/urandom c 1 5
1574 2013-08-12 17:41:02 <jgarzik> It is annoying that the wiki contracts page is where the SIGHASH_* documentation is found
1575 2013-08-12 17:41:03 <petertodd> nsh: That artical is maddening: all PC's have exactly that built-in too, it's called the real-time-clock and almost always free-runs against the orders of magnitude faster CPU clock.
1576 2013-08-12 17:41:26 <handle> mv /dev/zero /dev/urandom
1577 2013-08-12 17:41:33 <nsh> petertodd, which article? the hackaday one?
1578 2013-08-12 17:41:40 <petertodd> nsh: yeah
1579 2013-08-12 17:42:09 <nsh> the real-time-clock may not have the same nonlinear temperature dependence as this whirlygig thing
1580 2013-08-12 17:42:20 <nsh> it does say "set of oscillators"
1581 2013-08-12 17:42:31 <nsh> unfortunately the link is dead ( http://warmcat.com/_wp/whirlygig-rng/ )
1582 2013-08-12 17:42:35 <petertodd> nsh: Who cares? It does have jitter - every pair of clock domains does.
1583 2013-08-12 17:42:47 * nsh nods
1584 2013-08-12 17:43:13 <petertodd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metastability_in_electronics <- worth reading for anyone who things digital electronics is always deterministic
1585 2013-08-12 17:43:40 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1586 2013-08-12 17:43:41 <petertodd> The neat thing is if you've ever done FPGA programming you run into metastability really quickly.
1587 2013-08-12 17:43:54 * nsh made a metastable multivibrator from an electronics science-fair style kit when 12
1588 2013-08-12 17:44:01 <nsh> i should get another one of those. very education
1589 2013-08-12 17:44:04 <iwilcox> Dude, 12?
1590 2013-08-12 17:44:12 <nsh> i was precocious/bored
1591 2013-08-12 17:44:26 <nsh> http://www.amazon.co.uk/200-1-Electronic-Project-Lab/dp/B000LRCD6Q
1592 2013-08-12 17:44:28 <nsh> something like that
1593 2013-08-12 17:44:43 debiantoruser has joined
1594 2013-08-12 17:44:45 <nsh> great gift for a kid
1595 2013-08-12 17:44:47 <nsh> bbl
1596 2013-08-12 17:45:08 _ingsoc has joined
1597 2013-08-12 17:45:11 <petertodd> nsh: ha! yeah I had the 300-in-1 version myself
1598 2013-08-12 17:45:39 Coincide_ has joined
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1604 2013-08-12 17:51:09 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: since when are patches submitted through strange transactions?
1605 2013-08-12 17:51:14 <iwilcox> Actually I think I had that too, probably after siblings had removed all the interesting components. Probably about 10-in-1 by the time I got it.
1606 2013-08-12 17:52:30 Cory has joined
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1608 2013-08-12 17:53:29 <MoALTz> petertodd, nsh: http://www.designinganalogchips.com/
1609 2013-08-12 17:54:29 Eagle[TM] has joined
1610 2013-08-12 17:55:43 <Anduck> is it real patch
1611 2013-08-12 17:55:54 <Anduck> obviously not by SN but is it valid info otherwise?
1612 2013-08-12 17:56:30 t1488t has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1613 2013-08-12 17:58:15 <petertodd> MoALTz: I work as an analog electronics designer mostly :)
1614 2013-08-12 17:58:16 <runeks> jgarzik: Here's some scrollback for you: http://pastebin.com/GwS82V2y
1615 2013-08-12 17:58:34 <petertodd> ThomasV: yeah, the patch looked correct to me too
1616 2013-08-12 17:58:54 deego` is now known as deego
1617 2013-08-12 17:59:10 <MoALTz> petertodd: hah neat. it looks a very hard area to get into
1618 2013-08-12 17:59:19 <ThomasV> it sures looks correct (I cannot test now)
1619 2013-08-12 17:59:33 <jgarzik> auctions make me want replace-by-fee :)
1620 2013-08-12 18:00:12 <ThomasV> but I'd like to know where it comes from
1621 2013-08-12 18:00:12 <Eagle[TM]> I'll test
1622 2013-08-12 18:00:36 <sturles> petertodd: Interresting -- off topic, but the problem of finding and staying at maximum power point when pulling power from a solar panel, does that have an analog solution? Or is it work for a MCU?
1623 2013-08-12 18:00:37 <ThomasV> a strange tx.. needs a miner who accepts it
1624 2013-08-12 18:00:43 <petertodd> MoALTz: yeah, it has the problem that actual applications for it and jobs are tricky to come by - hard to get experience when there's no incentive to do anything
1625 2013-08-12 18:00:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: replace-by-fee is the one true replacement method
1626 2013-08-12 18:01:02 <ThomasV> Eagle[TM]: thanks :)
1627 2013-08-12 18:01:11 <petertodd> sturles: Probably, but a MCU will be more flexible.
1628 2013-08-12 18:01:28 <Eagle[TM]> ThomasV: I'm not at all surprised who included the block :)
1629 2013-08-12 18:01:31 saivann__ has quit ()
1630 2013-08-12 18:01:40 saivann has joined
1631 2013-08-12 18:01:48 <ThomasV> who?
1632 2013-08-12 18:01:48 <petertodd> sturles: Basically the issue is you want a derivative measurement circuit, and analog solutions are much less flexible than digital.
1633 2013-08-12 18:01:54 <petertodd> ThomasV: eligius
1634 2013-08-12 18:02:15 <sturles> Right. So less power range or voltag range?
1635 2013-08-12 18:02:28 <ThomasV> ok, so it's luke inpersonating satoshi
1636 2013-08-12 18:02:59 <petertodd> ThomasV: luke accepts non-std tx's from anyone
1637 2013-08-12 18:03:23 <petertodd> sturles: yeah, or instability in odd circumstances or a whole bunch of stuff
1638 2013-08-12 18:03:26 <ThomasV> right..
1639 2013-08-12 18:03:48 <sturles> petertodd: OK, thanks.
1640 2013-08-12 18:03:57 <petertodd> ThomasV: note too that p2pool forwards non-standard tx's in shares, so p2pool miners who mine non-std see them too
1641 2013-08-12 18:04:45 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1642 2013-08-12 18:05:31 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1643 2013-08-12 18:06:07 <handle> I assume TD = Mike Hearn?
1644 2013-08-12 18:06:26 <sipa> correct
1645 2013-08-12 18:06:28 <runeks> handle: I assume too
1646 2013-08-12 18:06:37 <handle> I see, got it
1647 2013-08-12 18:07:04 <runeks> So why would we want to design an auction where the auctioners can't see each other's bids? The auctioneer has an incentive to notify auctioneers of competing bids so they will bid higher.
1648 2013-08-12 18:08:24 <maaku> runeks: not under a vickrey auction
1649 2013-08-12 18:08:36 <runeks> Gotta look that up...
1650 2013-08-12 18:08:49 <maaku> it's non-ideal to have auctions structured that way, everyone loses out
1651 2013-08-12 18:09:17 <maaku> vickrey is almost what ebay uses - you bid your max amount, but only pay the 2nd highest bid
1652 2013-08-12 18:09:21 <runeks> maaku: Not the auctioneer.
1653 2013-08-12 18:09:29 <maaku> shill bids
1654 2013-08-12 18:09:39 <runeks> maaku: The bid is a signed transaction.
1655 2013-08-12 18:09:45 <runeks> Or could be.
1656 2013-08-12 18:10:03 <maaku> not sure how that relates to your question
1657 2013-08-12 18:10:21 <runeks> maaku: Oh, I get it. Bids from the auctioneer himself.
1658 2013-08-12 18:10:35 <maaku> the ideal auction has the item go to the person that values it the most, with that person paying only what they have to to outbid everyone else
1659 2013-08-12 18:10:43 <maaku> yes
1660 2013-08-12 18:11:02 <runeks> maaku: Not if you ask the auctioneer :)
1661 2013-08-12 18:11:18 <maaku> no, it's true for the auctioneer too
1662 2013-08-12 18:11:24 <handle> are you talking about building an auction within the bitcoin protocol?
1663 2013-08-12 18:11:26 <maaku> that's why vickrey got the nobel prize
1664 2013-08-12 18:11:35 <maaku> handle: sortof
1665 2013-08-12 18:11:44 <runeks> maaku: Why? Surely the auctioneer wants the most he can get.
1666 2013-08-12 18:11:50 <maaku> and that is the most he can get
1667 2013-08-12 18:12:21 <maaku> if you organize it differently (say, bidder pays what they bid) then bidders will be incentivised to lie about their valuations (lower bids)
1668 2013-08-12 18:12:49 <runeks> maaku: Why?
1669 2013-08-12 18:12:57 <gmaxwell> careful to not wax too fondly, the good behaviors of auctions only hold up under spherical bidders.
1670 2013-08-12 18:12:57 <handle> now, the only problem with this is that you're now throwing a bunch of transactions (bids) into the blockchain that are useless
1671 2013-08-12 18:13:19 btcbtc_ has quit (Quit: btcbtc_)
1672 2013-08-12 18:13:19 <handle> assuming you want this to work the way I think you want this to work
1673 2013-08-12 18:13:26 <runeks> handle: Only the winning bid (transaction) would go into the blockchain.
1674 2013-08-12 18:13:37 <runeks> (In my scheme)
1675 2013-08-12 18:13:47 <runeks> The biggest problem I imagine is DoS.
1676 2013-08-12 18:14:00 <gmaxwell> (with real bidders you get effects like the winner is the most irrational guy, which doesn't distribute good optimally :P)
1677 2013-08-12 18:14:03 K1773R has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1678 2013-08-12 18:14:11 <handle> would that not cause the potential to double spend?
1679 2013-08-12 18:14:17 <maaku> yes, this is all predicated on bidders being rational
1680 2013-08-12 18:14:35 <maaku> which is more true of EM spectrum and mineral rights auctions, less true of ebay junk
1681 2013-08-12 18:14:57 <maaku> handle: that's not the way i'm designing this
1682 2013-08-12 18:15:11 <maaku> only the winning bid would go on the chain
1683 2013-08-12 18:15:13 <runeks> handle: If we implement in bitcoind that miners prioritize transactions with the highest fees (and parent-pays-for-child) we can effectively make double spending unprofitable.
1684 2013-08-12 18:15:45 <runeks> maaku: Why would the auctioneer care if bidders are rational? he just wants to sell his item for the most he can get.
1685 2013-08-12 18:15:50 <handle> would that not make double spending even easier?
1686 2013-08-12 18:16:03 <handle> you send a transaction with a small fee, then double spend by sending a transaction with a larger fee
1687 2013-08-12 18:16:11 <runeks> handle: If you try to double spend me I create a transaction that spends your transaction and sends it all to fees.
1688 2013-08-12 18:16:39 <maaku> runeks: and the most he can get in a single-item auction is the 2nd highest bid of a 2nd bid auction
1689 2013-08-12 18:16:42 <handle> I see
1690 2013-08-12 18:16:51 <runeks> handle: So 100% become fees. Miners will prioritize this transactions. Ideally the bidders would enter into an agreement that allows this so they are clear on the risks of double spending.
1691 2013-08-12 18:16:58 <maaku> this is a standard game theoretic result, for which vickrey got the nobel economics prize
1692 2013-08-12 18:17:40 <runeks> maaku: I don't understand. I didn't even know eBay worked like this.
1693 2013-08-12 18:17:44 <maaku> because in winner pays max bid auctions, all participants depress their maximum bids
1694 2013-08-12 18:18:12 <runeks> maaku: Right. That makes sense.
1695 2013-08-12 18:18:16 <handle> maaku: that is actually an interesting point
1696 2013-08-12 18:18:29 <maaku> so the winner pays their max bid, but that max bid is less than the 2nd highest would have been in a vickrey auction
1697 2013-08-12 18:18:34 K1773R has joined
1698 2013-08-12 18:18:40 <handle> so if I understand this correctly, nobody knows who bid what?
1699 2013-08-12 18:18:40 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1700 2013-08-12 18:18:57 <handle> i.e. I'm just saying "I'd pay $nn for this" and hope I'm the highest?
1701 2013-08-12 18:19:34 <maaku> in the system I linked to, everyone encrypts their bids, and only the auctioneer knows who bid what
1702 2013-08-12 18:19:47 <jgarzik> dislike :)
1703 2013-08-12 18:19:57 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1704 2013-08-12 18:19:59 debiantoruser has joined
1705 2013-08-12 18:20:01 <handle> how can the network verify it then?
1706 2013-08-12 18:20:01 <maaku> he then generates a zero-knowledge proof that the winning bidder is the winner, then destroys the decryption key
1707 2013-08-12 18:20:12 <maaku> anyone can verify the winner, but not reconstruct the bids
1708 2013-08-12 18:20:30 <runeks> maaku: Why must the bids remain secret after the auction is over?
1709 2013-08-12 18:20:39 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1710 2013-08-12 18:20:42 <handle> ^
1711 2013-08-12 18:21:06 <maaku> (1) privacy reasons (why not?), (2) it reveals information in multiple serial auctions
1712 2013-08-12 18:21:08 <handle> you could probably eliminate a fair amount of bloat by not embedding a ZKP
1713 2013-08-12 18:21:27 <maaku> say you're auctioning EM spectra one at a time, if you knew the players and bids of the last round...
1714 2013-08-12 18:21:36 <runeks> maaku: Because revealing the bids would make it a whole lot simpler :)
1715 2013-08-12 18:21:54 peetaur2 has joined
1716 2013-08-12 18:21:56 <runeks> maaku: Well that's price formation.
1717 2013-08-12 18:22:00 <handle> hell, just doing a regular ebay-style auction would make it easy
1718 2013-08-12 18:22:07 <runeks> Why wouldn't I want to know what the others bid?
1719 2013-08-12 18:22:13 <maaku> runeks: no, it's collusion
1720 2013-08-12 18:22:28 <runeks> maaku: How so?
1721 2013-08-12 18:22:30 <maaku> you can use bids to signal intent in later rounds to other bidders
1722 2013-08-12 18:23:03 <maaku> this happened when germany auctioned off its wireless spectra
1723 2013-08-12 18:23:20 <runeks> maaku: You can't prevent the bidders from communicating anyway can you?
1724 2013-08-12 18:23:53 <maaku> runeks: you can prevent them from knowing all the players and their strategies
1725 2013-08-12 18:24:02 <maaku> in other words, make the communication optional
1726 2013-08-12 18:24:27 <maaku> handle: ebay-style auctions are not easy to do in bitcoin
1727 2013-08-12 18:24:34 <runeks> maaku: Can you actually do that using cryptography?
1728 2013-08-12 18:24:36 <maaku> on ebay you pay the 2nd highest bid
1729 2013-08-12 18:24:39 <maaku> runeks: yes
1730 2013-08-12 18:24:42 <handle> well, I didn't mean exactly ebay-style
1731 2013-08-12 18:24:46 <runeks> Cool.
1732 2013-08-12 18:24:48 <maaku> http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~shieber/Biblio/Papers/icec06.pdf
1733 2013-08-12 18:24:48 <handle> I just meant one where bids are publick
1734 2013-08-12 18:24:50 <handle> public
1735 2013-08-12 18:25:09 <maaku> bids aren't public on ebay
1736 2013-08-12 18:25:27 <handle> yes they are
1737 2013-08-12 18:25:31 <handle> well
1738 2013-08-12 18:25:37 <handle> they're half-public
1739 2013-08-12 18:25:38 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1740 2013-08-12 18:26:03 <handle> 02:26 < maaku> on ebay you pay the 2nd highest bid <- oh, I understand now
1741 2013-08-12 18:26:39 <maaku> yeah the straightforward way of doing auctions in bitcoin is bidder pays max bid
1742 2013-08-12 18:26:56 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1743 2013-08-12 18:27:09 <maaku> which seems like a trivial difference, but as I said earlier leads to an entirely different result due to game theory
1744 2013-08-12 18:27:26 <jgarzik> I wonder if anybody has ever done a modified dutch auction: price ticks down, but if someone hits a price, permit the price to tick back up (until a no-bid timeout is reached)
1745 2013-08-12 18:28:00 <runeks> jgarzik: "price ticks down"?
1746 2013-08-12 18:28:41 <jgarzik> runeks, as in a normal dutch auction: the price starts at a very high price, then is successively reduced until somebody agrees to pay that price
1747 2013-08-12 18:29:08 <runeks> jgarzik: Oh, right.
1748 2013-08-12 18:29:49 <jgarzik> my "modified dutch" would, when someone finally agrees to pay, switch into a second mode where others may bid up the price, if they do so before a timeout is reached
1749 2013-08-12 18:31:34 <Zoop_> https://blockchain.info/tx/77822fd6663c665104119cb7635352756dfc50da76a92d417ec1a12c518fad69
1750 2013-08-12 18:31:37 <Zoop_> wut is this?
1751 2013-08-12 18:32:06 <Zoop_> From: Satoshi Nakamoto <satoshin@gmx.com> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 02:28:02 -0200
1752 2013-08-12 18:33:09 <Anduck> probably not from satoshi
1753 2013-08-12 18:33:14 <Anduck> (most likely not)
1754 2013-08-12 18:33:18 <jgarzik> a failed troll attempt?
1755 2013-08-12 18:33:28 <Anduck> but was the message itself valid?
1756 2013-08-12 18:33:38 imsaguy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1757 2013-08-12 18:33:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it's a correct patch for the second electrum hang bug at least. :P
1758 2013-08-12 18:33:51 imsaguy has joined
1759 2013-08-12 18:33:55 <runeks> gmaxwell: Do we know who sent it?
1760 2013-08-12 18:33:59 <gmaxwell> nope.
1761 2013-08-12 18:34:11 <gmaxwell> I'd just assumed petertodd, but I assume he won't say. :P
1762 2013-08-12 18:34:28 <gmaxwell> also includes some surprising root-cause analysis for that issue which was surprising to me.
1763 2013-08-12 18:34:33 CheckDavid has joined
1764 2013-08-12 18:34:47 <gmaxwell> Since I wasn't aware of the 16 bit opcode, and I dunno who else would have been except TD.
1765 2013-08-12 18:34:57 <Cusipzzz> To the forums!! (it's probably there already w/10 pages)
1766 2013-08-12 18:35:21 <Anduck> yup
1767 2013-08-12 18:35:25 <Anduck> it's already at reddit!
1768 2013-08-12 18:35:25 <runeks> Why would Satoshi know anything about electrum?
1769 2013-08-12 18:35:40 <Anduck> it wasn't satoshi? satoshi might be watching us... even right now.. :)
1770 2013-08-12 18:35:56 datagutt has joined
1771 2013-08-12 18:35:57 <handle> hi
1772 2013-08-12 18:36:28 <gmaxwell> runeks: the knoweldge wasn't about electrum it was about bitcoin.
1773 2013-08-12 18:36:33 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1774 2013-08-12 18:36:51 <Anduck> if it was an actual email, who received it?
1775 2013-08-12 18:36:59 <Anduck> no clues?
1776 2013-08-12 18:37:01 <k9quaint> I did
1777 2013-08-12 18:37:05 <k9quaint> moved it to spam
1778 2013-08-12 18:38:20 <gmaxwell> Anduck: it's not email, it's a git formatted patch.
1779 2013-08-12 18:38:25 <Anduck> ahh
1780 2013-08-12 18:38:30 <gmaxwell> I copied it into a post on bct.
1781 2013-08-12 18:38:51 <Anduck> well, first patch received from blockchain! yay
1782 2013-08-12 18:38:55 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=271761.msg2916592#msg2916592
1783 2013-08-12 18:39:17 <maaku> jgarzik: so basically that's a dutch auction to figure out the starting bid of an english auction?
1784 2013-08-12 18:40:02 <maaku> jtimon and I are working on a system that does both of those individually, and you could probably find a way to stack them
1785 2013-08-12 18:40:07 ericmuyser has joined
1786 2013-08-12 18:40:09 <jgarzik> maaku, enables multiple forms of price discovery. I think it dovetails well with human psychology.
1787 2013-08-12 18:40:19 <jgarzik> maaku, First one person commits, then that drives other bidders.
1788 2013-08-12 18:40:24 <jgarzik> maaku, Makes more money for the seller, perhaps.
1789 2013-08-12 18:40:44 tekkentux has joined
1790 2013-08-12 18:40:46 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Why is that dated Aug 2013?
1791 2013-08-12 18:40:58 <Anduck> it was sent today
1792 2013-08-12 18:41:31 <midnightmagic> From: Satoshi Nakamoto <satoshin@gmx.com> <-- am I missing something?
1793 2013-08-12 18:41:38 <Anduck> midnightmagic: it's just text
1794 2013-08-12 18:41:42 WhoKnew has joined
1795 2013-08-12 18:41:45 <Anduck> can be actually from satoshi, can be not
1796 2013-08-12 18:41:49 * maaku wishes he'd thought of impersonating satoshi with a blockchain message
1797 2013-08-12 18:41:55 WhoKnew has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1798 2013-08-12 18:42:12 <Anduck> but midnightmagic: it actually was a working patch
1799 2013-08-12 18:42:16 <Anduck> or is*
1800 2013-08-12 18:42:23 <midnightmagic> Anduck: Where was it sent to?
1801 2013-08-12 18:42:26 <Anduck> blockchain
1802 2013-08-12 18:42:33 <Anduck> without output
1803 2013-08-12 18:42:39 sserrano44 has joined
1804 2013-08-12 18:42:46 digitalmagus2 has joined
1805 2013-08-12 18:42:46 digitalmagus2 has quit (Changing host)
1806 2013-08-12 18:42:46 digitalmagus2 has joined
1807 2013-08-12 18:42:49 <gmaxwell> maaku: anyone have an solutions to the research-cost race to the bottom when bidding under uncertanty? e.g. in iterated auctions when some of the bidders are morons, your research time is wasted. The rational thing to do is research less, and lower your price to offset your decline in rationality. ... I think we've seen this with mining hardware on BCT.
1808 2013-08-12 18:42:51 <Anduck> probably via tor, too
1809 2013-08-12 18:42:55 <jgarzik> without Satoshi's PGP signature, it's just random text
1810 2013-08-12 18:43:22 <gmaxwell> s/random text/a useful patch/
1811 2013-08-12 18:43:31 <runeks> jgarzik: Or most likely a troll. Satoshi has so many ways he could identify himself. Although it's not really necessary in this case.
1812 2013-08-12 18:43:47 <runeks> gmaxwell: What's the odds of random text being a useful patch?
1813 2013-08-12 18:43:54 <gmaxwell> safest to just asseum someone is being silly but also submitting useful patches.
1814 2013-08-12 18:43:55 <Anduck> most likely not a troll because he apparently knew a lot about that thing he patched
1815 2013-08-12 18:44:12 <runeks> Anduck: Knowledgeable trolls exist. I presume.
1816 2013-08-12 18:44:13 <gmaxwell> runeks: astronomically low, so it's not random text. It's just a useful patch. Other people than satoshi can write those.
1817 2013-08-12 18:44:23 <runeks> Thankfully.
1818 2013-08-12 18:45:07 <midnightmagic> Ah, I see. It's text within an actual transaction.
1819 2013-08-12 18:45:14 <midnightmagic> lol that's pretty funny.
1820 2013-08-12 18:45:24 <gmaxwell> It got me accused of being satoshi earlier today.
1821 2013-08-12 18:45:36 <Cusipzzz> O.o
1822 2013-08-12 18:45:44 <sipa> let's just all start claiming we're satoshi
1823 2013-08-12 18:46:01 <Cusipzzz> now if it spent block 2, i would be impressed.
1824 2013-08-12 18:46:14 <gmaxwell> When I posted it on BCT as properly formated text people went and looked at bc.i at the txn it came from. And before BC.I fixed the XSS bug satoshi's email wasn't showing up on the webpage due to the brackets.
1825 2013-08-12 18:46:30 <midnightmagic> http://pbfcomics.com/45/
1826 2013-08-12 18:46:34 <gmaxwell> So it looked like my post to BCT had the satoshi name in it while the txn did not.
1827 2013-08-12 18:46:54 <gmaxwell> so I had several people contact me and suggest I quickly delete the post before anyone else noticed. :P
1828 2013-08-12 18:47:03 <Anduck> maybe one of you devs is satoshi
1829 2013-08-12 18:47:06 <Anduck> bwahahah
1830 2013-08-12 18:47:08 <jgarzik> Everybody claim they are SatoshiÂ
except Wladmir. That will really make them paranoid.
1831 2013-08-12 18:47:10 <Diablo-D3> dude, I am not satoshi
1832 2013-08-12 18:47:12 <Diablo-D3> stop asking
1833 2013-08-12 18:47:43 <sipa> we need a consistent and clear message
1834 2013-08-12 18:47:43 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: are you not satoshi?
1835 2013-08-12 18:47:58 <sipa> anyone claiming not to be satoshi is suspicious
1836 2013-08-12 18:48:03 <Cusipzzz> i know who it is, but the margin of this irc window is not large enough for me to reveal it.
1837 2013-08-12 18:48:04 <midnightmagic> lol I'm totally Satoshi but my two buddies stopped writing code so I had to step back.
1838 2013-08-12 18:48:06 <lianj> whoever mode it should update their git at some point
1839 2013-08-12 18:48:07 <k9quaint> sipa: wabbit season!
1840 2013-08-12 18:48:09 <Diablo-D3> I mean, why would I use c++ and boost
1841 2013-08-12 18:48:13 <sipa> Cusipzzz: you read too much fermat dude
1842 2013-08-12 18:48:15 <Diablo-D3> I dont hate anything more than those
1843 2013-08-12 18:48:21 <sipa> Diablo-D3: your hate is obviously a cover
1844 2013-08-12 18:48:25 <sipa> Diablo-D3: or the code is
1845 2013-08-12 18:48:34 <Diablo-D3> sipa: and why is the code so horrible
1846 2013-08-12 18:48:37 <Diablo-D3> and not written in erlang
1847 2013-08-12 18:48:48 <gmaxwell> Satoshi is really a guy in my office. He hates C++, boost, and wxwindows and just used it to cover up his normal coding style.
1848 2013-08-12 18:48:48 <midnightmagic> Plus I showed up at exactly the same time that Satoshi disappeared
1849 2013-08-12 18:49:08 <k9quaint> sipa: well, the severe brain trauma that caused Diablo to bow out of bitcoin development could be responsible
1850 2013-08-12 18:49:13 <midnightmagic> ಠ_à²
1851 2013-08-12 18:49:23 <sipa> midnightmagic: so did i :p
1852 2013-08-12 18:49:29 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: dude, all I did was quit caffiene
1853 2013-08-12 18:49:33 <Diablo-D3> its not like I died or something
1854 2013-08-12 18:49:35 FabianB has joined
1855 2013-08-12 18:49:35 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: as did i :p
1856 2013-08-12 18:49:45 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: like I said, SEVERE brain trauma :P
1857 2013-08-12 18:49:49 <midnightmagic> sipa: Jim? Is that you? Well you could've just said you didn't want me taking credit for your work anymore, jesus.
1858 2013-08-12 18:50:10 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: :P http://pbfcomics.com/45/
1859 2013-08-12 18:50:17 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1860 2013-08-12 18:50:18 <sipa> haha
1861 2013-08-12 18:50:40 normanrichards has joined
1862 2013-08-12 18:50:48 <gmaxwell> Least interesting questions in the bitcoin ecosystem.
1863 2013-08-12 18:50:59 <gmaxwell> ^ good subject for a conference paper.
1864 2013-08-12 18:51:04 <sipa> the fact that i've been gradually rewriting all satoshi stuff clearly means i dislike my former identity
1865 2013-08-12 18:51:07 <sipa> i mean HIS former identity
1866 2013-08-12 18:51:50 <midnightmagic> *OR* you got sick of listening to people tell you your code sucked
1867 2013-08-12 18:52:04 <runeks> sipa: You slipped!
1868 2013-08-12 18:52:14 <midnightmagic> jim
1869 2013-08-12 18:52:21 <sipa> haha
1870 2013-08-12 18:52:26 <jgarzik> Judging by the sales of UK and US tabloids, TMZ's, and other entertainment rags, Satoshi's identity is the most important thing in the world. That, and whether or not he secretly married Kim Kardashian recently.
1871 2013-08-12 18:52:43 <runeks> I would do that if I were Satoshi.
1872 2013-08-12 18:52:49 <sipa> Also whether he is pregnant.
1873 2013-08-12 18:52:57 <sipa> Or royal.
1874 2013-08-12 18:53:01 <handle> I've never understood why people care so much about tabloids
1875 2013-08-12 18:53:10 <handle> probably the trainwreck effect
1876 2013-08-12 18:53:17 <runeks> Me neither. Unless it's about Satoshi.
1877 2013-08-12 18:53:18 <jgarzik> We primates are social creatures. It's primal.
1878 2013-08-12 18:53:20 <k9quaint> I want to see the 'before' and 'after' pictures of satoshi on the tabloid front pages
1879 2013-08-12 18:53:25 <midnightmagic> handle: Everyone is waiting for a train wreck, and everyone else wants to worship a hero.
1880 2013-08-12 18:53:32 <handle> true
1881 2013-08-12 18:53:36 <jgarzik> Gossip about the tribe is inevitable. Keeps the human race going. Or something.
1882 2013-08-12 18:53:40 <handle> lol k9quaint
1883 2013-08-12 18:53:42 <gmaxwell> Obviously we need to personify the blockchain itself more.
1884 2013-08-12 18:54:01 <jgarzik> Refer to the blockchain as "she" and "her", like capital ships on the high seas.
1885 2013-08-12 18:54:09 <handle> the "after" photo will most likely be the "bitcoin user not affected" guy
1886 2013-08-12 18:54:17 <gmaxwell> "GLOBAL NEWS EXCLUSIVE: The BLOCKCHAIN IS GETTING FAT! <diet exclusive on page #3>"
1887 2013-08-12 18:54:22 <runeks> Or just insists on capitalizing it.
1888 2013-08-12 18:54:23 <handle> lol
1889 2013-08-12 18:54:25 <midnightmagic> A giant spinning tornado-like column spewing out dead puppy detritus at incredible speed
1890 2013-08-12 18:54:26 <k9quaint> jgarzik: don't russians call ships "him"?
1891 2013-08-12 18:54:26 <runeks> The Blockchain
1892 2013-08-12 18:54:40 Meizirkki has joined
1893 2013-08-12 18:54:42 <sipa> "The 'ultraprune' diet: TRY IT NOW!"
1894 2013-08-12 18:54:46 <gmaxwell> hahahah
1895 2013-08-12 18:54:57 <midnightmagic> mm.. prunes..
1896 2013-08-12 18:55:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: I took the ultraprune diet and hardly lost any weight at all!
1897 2013-08-12 18:55:08 <jgarzik> hah
1898 2013-08-12 18:55:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: i was about to make that joke :p
1899 2013-08-12 18:55:17 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1900 2013-08-12 18:55:18 <k9quaint> its all that dust
1901 2013-08-12 18:55:25 <handle> gmaxwell: I lost 11 gigabytes of weight - you must not be doing it right
1902 2013-08-12 18:55:27 marcusw has joined
1903 2013-08-12 18:55:37 <jgarzik> that's the SPiV diet
1904 2013-08-12 18:55:41 <gmaxwell> handle: I don't know what diet you took, but it sure wasn't the ultraprune one!
1905 2013-08-12 18:55:42 t7 has joined
1906 2013-08-12 18:55:45 <k9quaint> handle: gmaxwell has yotabytes to lose
1907 2013-08-12 18:55:46 <handle> lol
1908 2013-08-12 18:55:56 <handle> k9quaint: that's a terrible thing to say :p
1909 2013-08-12 18:56:11 <k9quaint> handle: terribly accurate maybe
1910 2013-08-12 18:56:34 <handle> heh
1911 2013-08-12 18:56:40 <gmaxwell> handle: ultraprune is the name of the database structure change deployed in bitcoin 0.8 that made things enormously faster... and made actual pruning _possible_ from a database design perspective... but it didn't actually prune anything but a bit of the index.
1912 2013-08-12 18:56:54 <handle> shit you're right
1913 2013-08-12 18:57:01 <handle> I've been off my game all day
1914 2013-08-12 18:57:04 <gmaxwell> (and some of the index pruning it did was offset by duplicating unspent transactions)
1915 2013-08-12 18:57:30 <sipa> unspent *output*
1916 2013-08-12 18:57:35 <sipa> + *s*
1917 2013-08-12 18:57:42 <handle> = *output**s*
1918 2013-08-12 18:57:57 <handle> actually that's wrong too...
1919 2013-08-12 18:57:59 <k9quaint> sipa has just invented irregular expressions
1920 2013-08-12 18:58:03 <sipa> ** means 'read this as if it were bold'
1921 2013-08-12 18:58:10 <handle> *yawn* I need to get off the internet nows
1922 2013-08-12 18:58:16 <handle> but I won't
1923 2013-08-12 18:58:17 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1924 2013-08-12 18:58:22 <runeks> Me too.
1925 2013-08-12 18:58:37 bmcgee has joined
1926 2013-08-12 18:59:05 paracyst has joined
1927 2013-08-12 18:59:38 <Zoop_> i wonder how many trolls will this spawn
1928 2013-08-12 19:00:09 gfinn has joined
1929 2013-08-12 19:00:11 <Zoop_> From: Satoshi Nakamoto <satoshin@gmx.com> Leave gox!
1930 2013-08-12 19:00:18 <Zoop_> From: Satoshi Nakamoto <satoshin@gmx.com> LTC is a scam!
1931 2013-08-12 19:00:22 <Zoop_> sigh
1932 2013-08-12 19:00:45 <sipa> especially since LTC's primary author now works for a bitcoin company!
1933 2013-08-12 19:00:50 bmcgee has quit (Client Quit)
1934 2013-08-12 19:00:56 <runeks> Plot twist
1935 2013-08-12 19:01:44 <k9quaint> is there anyone still working on LTC?
1936 2013-08-12 19:02:09 <gmaxwell> Zoop_: most people can't figure out how to make those transactions in any case.
1937 2013-08-12 19:02:22 <Zoop_> 'most'
1938 2013-08-12 19:02:49 <runeks> Gox isn't accepting withdrawals right now.
1939 2013-08-12 19:03:00 int0x27h has quit (Changing host)
1940 2013-08-12 19:03:00 int0x27h has joined
1941 2013-08-12 19:03:02 <Zoop_> i wonder if someone will code a blockchain message embeber
1942 2013-08-12 19:03:14 <runeks> People (including me) are getting a 'Invalid bitcoin address, please confirm your input' error (using a valid address).
1943 2013-08-12 19:03:25 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: it's less dead than it was. Did you see that they're upgrading their codebase to bitcoin 0.8? and petertodd did a nice audit?
1944 2013-08-12 19:03:45 <k9quaint> no, I hadn't seen it
1945 2013-08-12 19:03:54 <Zoop_> runeks btc withdrawals?
1946 2013-08-12 19:04:01 <runeks> Zoop_: Yes
1947 2013-08-12 19:04:08 <jgarzik> runeks, link?
1948 2013-08-12 19:04:08 <Zoop_> aw shit
1949 2013-08-12 19:04:29 <runeks> jgarzik: I don't have a link. I'm just in #mtgox whining along with other people.
1950 2013-08-12 19:04:39 <runeks> Some say it's their hot wallet that is empty.
1951 2013-08-12 19:05:01 <runeks> Some say it's because their pool of outgoing transactions is filled up.
1952 2013-08-12 19:05:24 <runeks> Some say MagicalTux is on a plane right now headed for the Caribbeans.
1953 2013-08-12 19:06:40 Ninsei has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
1954 2013-08-12 19:06:43 <runeks> I'm optimistic though.
1955 2013-08-12 19:07:01 hnz_ has joined
1956 2013-08-12 19:07:40 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
1957 2013-08-12 19:07:52 <runeks> Happened back in 2011 too, so it's not completely new: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45229.100
1958 2013-08-12 19:08:09 Ninsei has joined
1959 2013-08-12 19:08:16 <k9quaint> if only I could attach an alternator to the mtgox rumormill, I could generate enough clean power to power the entire US
1960 2013-08-12 19:08:39 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1961 2013-08-12 19:08:52 <handle> who said it was clean? :P
1962 2013-08-12 19:09:24 <runeks> Shouldn't they be waking up in Japan about now?
1963 2013-08-12 19:09:26 <k9quaint> well, all that yapping does create a lot of carbon dioxide I suppose
1964 2013-08-12 19:09:47 <runeks> 04:00 AM. Maybe not.
1965 2013-08-12 19:10:02 <handle> CO2 is technically "clean" - it just causes the greenhouse effect
1966 2013-08-12 19:10:10 <handle> but yeah, I suppose you'd be right
1967 2013-08-12 19:14:40 Steve132 has joined
1968 2013-08-12 19:14:55 <runeks> Anyway. I'm outie. Later good men of #bitcoin-dev.
1969 2013-08-12 19:14:58 zer0def has joined
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1972 2013-08-12 19:15:19 <Steve132> Hey, a few weeks ago I was in here asking about script...and basically the response is that script is disabled by default
1973 2013-08-12 19:15:34 __tekkentux has joined
1974 2013-08-12 19:15:36 <Steve132> to prevent storing arbitrary data in the blockchain is one reason, security concerns is another
1975 2013-08-12 19:15:43 robocoin_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1976 2013-08-12 19:15:51 <Steve132> So how did https://blockchain.info/tx/77822fd6663c665104119cb7635352756dfc50da76a92d417ec1a12c518fad69 get mined?
1977 2013-08-12 19:15:57 jMyles has joined
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1982 2013-08-12 19:18:01 <jgarzik> Steve132, eligius?
1983 2013-08-12 19:19:06 <Steve132> What does that mean?
1984 2013-08-12 19:19:06 __tekkentux has left ()
1985 2013-08-12 19:19:09 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
1986 2013-08-12 19:19:21 <Steve132> Are they willing to include arbitrary script in a block?
1987 2013-08-12 19:19:47 <Eagle[TM]> yes
1988 2013-08-12 19:20:16 <Steve132> but they have to win the block for it to be included in the blockchain, right?
1989 2013-08-12 19:20:35 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: so I hear your ata code is in featured in the (apparently terrible) movie elysium.
1990 2013-08-12 19:21:12 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1991 2013-08-12 19:21:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, that's because it's nice, clean, beautiful code for a socialist utopia
1992 2013-08-12 19:22:04 <Cusipzzz> jgarzik: getting residuals?!
1993 2013-08-12 19:22:05 <jgarzik> (I hadn't heard)
1994 2013-08-12 19:22:14 <Cusipzzz> guess not....
1995 2013-08-12 19:22:15 yubrew has joined
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1998 2013-08-12 19:23:23 <Eagle[TM]> Steve132: yes, i think you can connect to a bitcoind at elegius and transmit your tx to be included
1999 2013-08-12 19:23:30 <Eagle[TM]> *eligius
2000 2013-08-12 19:23:56 <Steve132> thanks. Makes sense
2001 2013-08-12 19:25:10 <jgarzik> hum
2002 2013-08-12 19:25:17 <jgarzik> I wonder if anybody has ever done a stratum-to-stratum proxy
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2011 2013-08-12 19:30:50 <handle> 03:26 < jgarzik> I wonder if anybody has ever done a stratum-to-stratum proxy
2012 2013-08-12 19:31:19 <handle> do you mean stratum bot -> stratumproxy -> stratumproxy -> stratum server?
2013 2013-08-12 19:31:31 AtashiCon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2014 2013-08-12 19:31:38 <handle> or stratum miner -> stratum proxy -> stratum server?
2015 2013-08-12 19:32:08 <jgarzik> the latter. miner->proxy->server
2016 2013-08-12 19:32:34 <handle> ah
2017 2013-08-12 19:32:41 <handle> I've done it, seems to work fine
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2027 2013-08-12 19:56:32 Eagle[TM] is now known as EagleTM
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2038 2013-08-12 20:18:10 Delerium has joined
2039 2013-08-12 20:19:34 tekkentux has joined
2040 2013-08-12 20:19:44 <tekkentux> Hi I'm having some trouble building the current bitcoin master as well as the 0.8.3 branch. The linker sais "leveldb.cpp:(.text+0x2bf): undefined reference to `leveldb::Options::Options()'" (and many more leveldb related errors). Any idea?
2041 2013-08-12 20:20:03 normanrichards has joined
2042 2013-08-12 20:20:09 <Delerium> Hi Devs - I'm looking at helping out by rebroadcasting some transactions not yet picked up by the blockchain but when i'm passing the following parms to the client it returns "Error: couldn't connect to server". Any ideas? Cmd line im using in win (no lolling) is bitcoind.exe -sendrawtransaction <hex string>
2043 2013-08-12 20:21:32 davedave has joined
2044 2013-08-12 20:23:48 <tekkentux> I'm on debian testing, libleveldb1 and libleveldb-dev are installed
2045 2013-08-12 20:24:02 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2046 2013-08-12 20:24:32 <warren> tekkentux: bitcoin should be uses leveldb embedded within its own source code. It is discouraged to use an external leveldb.
2047 2013-08-12 20:25:07 <tekkentux> ah ok
2048 2013-08-12 20:25:09 <_ingsoc> What warren said. I had a problem with a leveldb version.
2049 2013-08-12 20:25:28 <tekkentux> I'll try to remove it
2050 2013-08-12 20:26:32 random_cat_ has joined
2051 2013-08-12 20:26:42 <tekkentux> still same errors it seems not to find the lib
2052 2013-08-12 20:26:51 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2053 2013-08-12 20:26:55 <tekkentux> do I have to build it somehow first?
2054 2013-08-12 20:29:51 <warren> no, you're doing something wrong
2055 2013-08-12 20:31:52 <tekkentux> warren I just did: git clone https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git qmake make as told in the readme for bitcoin-qt
2056 2013-08-12 20:31:52 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2057 2013-08-12 20:32:36 <tekkentux> what am I missing? it worked that way with an older checkout
2058 2013-08-12 20:32:37 <Zoop_> https://lamassu.is/
2059 2013-08-12 20:33:26 <Zoop_> i wonder what are its guts made of
2060 2013-08-12 20:33:35 Meizirkki has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2061 2013-08-12 20:33:54 <_ingsoc> Doesn't look very secure.
2062 2013-08-12 20:34:04 <_ingsoc> Although I haven't seen it in-person.
2063 2013-08-12 20:35:58 <Zoop_> $5K a piece
2064 2013-08-12 20:36:32 digitalmagus2 has joined
2065 2013-08-12 20:36:36 <Zoop_> says it is a steel vault bolted to wall/counter
2066 2013-08-12 20:36:46 <Zoop_> something to have in a shop
2067 2013-08-12 20:36:52 <Zoop_> not in the street
2068 2013-08-12 20:36:57 <Zoop_> would be my guess
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2076 2013-08-12 20:45:23 <tekkentux> Ohohoh lol damn I found my mistake
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2078 2013-08-12 20:49:13 teste has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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2082 2013-08-12 20:58:41 <tekkentux> lol this is fun:
2083 2013-08-12 20:58:49 <tekkentux> some time ago I installed Xilinx ISE to program fpgas.
2084 2013-08-12 20:59:12 <tekkentux> As ISE is buggy and only supports redhat, it does not recognize my systems architecture, because it uses uname for that and the uname output of debian differs from redhats.
2085 2013-08-12 20:59:31 <tekkentux> So I created a custom "uname"bash script, that fake outputs the redhat uname string to fix ISE
2086 2013-08-12 20:59:46 <tekkentux> Of course that fake script should only be loaded when PATH is explicitely set by ise start script.
2087 2013-08-12 20:59:52 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2088 2013-08-12 20:59:59 <tekkentux> Now I tried to build bitcoin in the same shell I launched ise before ....
2089 2013-08-12 21:00:22 btcbtc has joined
2090 2013-08-12 21:00:28 <tekkentux> leveldb also uses uname, failed to determine my systems arch, because of my hacked uname script and the lib was not built, resulting in the errors above :D
2091 2013-08-12 21:01:00 mappum has joined
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2093 2013-08-12 21:01:42 MiningBuddy has joined
2094 2013-08-12 21:02:07 TD has joined
2095 2013-08-12 21:02:13 <tekkentux> these dirty uname output string parsing is not very reliable lol
2096 2013-08-12 21:02:20 bbrian has joined
2097 2013-08-12 21:02:33 <tekkentux> now everything works
2098 2013-08-12 21:09:57 arioBarzan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2099 2013-08-12 21:20:19 <tekkentux> Another question:
2100 2013-08-12 21:21:24 <tekkentux> Is the -regtest option working already? When activated, it says "no block source available". That option would really be helpful to test miners!
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2108 2013-08-12 21:36:09 <TD> tekkentux: it works for me
2109 2013-08-12 21:36:19 <TD> i don't know what that message would be caused by
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2122 2013-08-12 21:54:38 <tekkentux> TD, to me it sounds like it cannot find peers, its still 131 weeks behind, and cannot catch up
2123 2013-08-12 21:55:01 <tekkentux> did you configure any port forwardings or whatever?
2124 2013-08-12 21:55:08 <TD> regtest mode does not have peers
2125 2013-08-12 21:55:13 <TD> it's intended for standalone usage
2126 2013-08-12 21:55:24 <tekkentux> a ok
2127 2013-08-12 21:55:27 <tekkentux> strange
2128 2013-08-12 21:55:47 <tekkentux> I thought it was like testnet with an alternative chain..
2129 2013-08-12 21:56:26 <gmaxwell> no, testnet is testnet.
2130 2013-08-12 21:56:26 <tekkentux> but it sais its 131 weeks behind. but behind what than? *g*
2131 2013-08-12 21:56:31 <gmaxwell> We don't really need more than one.
2132 2013-08-12 21:56:50 nomailing has joined
2133 2013-08-12 21:56:53 <gmaxwell> tekkentux: weeks behind stuff is just cosmetic, it doesn't mean anything useful.
2134 2013-08-12 21:57:23 <tekkentux> gmaxwell, k but as long it is behind, the rpc api does not work
2135 2013-08-12 21:57:29 freefox has quit (Quit: freefox)
2136 2013-08-12 21:57:55 <tekkentux> getwork: "Bitcoin is not connected! (code -9)"
2137 2013-08-12 21:57:55 <gmaxwell> tekkentux: what do you mean does not work.
2138 2013-08-12 21:58:01 <gmaxwell> yes, you can't mine on it.
2139 2013-08-12 21:58:08 <gmaxwell> thats not what its for.
2140 2013-08-12 21:58:17 <tekkentux> hmm ok
2141 2013-08-12 21:58:36 <tekkentux> I think I did not understand what it is for *g*
2142 2013-08-12 21:59:05 <gmaxwell> -regtest Enter regression test mode, which uses a special chain in which blocks can be solved instantly. This is intended for regression testing tools
2143 2013-08-12 21:59:25 <tekkentux> yes
2144 2013-08-12 21:59:42 Krellan_ has joined
2145 2013-08-12 21:59:45 <tekkentux> but how can I solve a block, when I cannot even get one via getwork?
2146 2013-08-12 21:59:51 <gmaxwell> it's used by the pull tester, it puts bitcoin in a special mode where basically difficulty isn't tested. The purpose is that a special testing tool feeds it specially formulated test blocks.
2147 2013-08-12 22:00:10 <gmaxwell> and a bunch of the other rules are slightly modified to make them easier to trigger.
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2149 2013-08-12 22:02:05 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2150 2013-08-12 22:02:46 <tekkentux> ah ok
2151 2013-08-12 22:03:12 <tekkentux> so this cannot be used to test miners?
2152 2013-08-12 22:03:21 <maaku> tekkentux: use testnet for that
2153 2013-08-12 22:03:27 <maaku> tekkentux: or testnet in a box
2154 2013-08-12 22:03:31 <tekkentux> testnet is too difficult
2155 2013-08-12 22:03:32 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2156 2013-08-12 22:03:34 <tekkentux> lol
2157 2013-08-12 22:03:43 <maaku> ^^ testnet in a box
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2159 2013-08-12 22:03:56 <gmaxwell> tekkentux: testnet isn't in any case, after 20 minutes the diff drops to 1.
2160 2013-08-12 22:03:57 <tekkentux> ok I'll look at that
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2162 2013-08-12 22:04:29 <maaku> or make your own box: start two peers connected to each other only
2163 2013-08-12 22:05:01 <tekkentux> is there a tutorial for that?
2164 2013-08-12 22:05:08 <maaku> look at -connect
2165 2013-08-12 22:05:15 <tekkentux> ok thx
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2182 2013-08-12 22:17:00 <Goonie> Did something happen in Spain? There is a sudden spike of Bitcoin Wallet installations from Spain.
2183 2013-08-12 22:20:22 <gmaxwell> someone translated the news into spanish?
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2190 2013-08-12 22:33:12 <Subo1977_> wich news ?
2191 2013-08-12 22:35:04 <c0rw1n> hypothetical news that would explain why lots of people download bitcoin from spain
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2193 2013-08-12 22:37:19 <tekkentux> maaku, I just started two peers binding to 2 virtual ip addresses and connecting to each other. each peer has its own data dir wich I just created. but still they seem to know something about the outside world,as both state "140weeks behind" an both say "no block source avaiable"
2194 2013-08-12 22:38:05 <maaku> that's probably due to a checkpoint, I would guess
2195 2013-08-12 22:38:08 <maaku> can you mine on them?
2196 2013-08-12 22:38:17 <tekkentux> 140 = 240 btw..
2197 2013-08-12 22:38:22 <tekkentux> I'll try
2198 2013-08-12 22:38:29 gvdm has joined
2199 2013-08-12 22:38:48 <sipa> use -nocheckpoints
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2204 2013-08-12 22:43:23 <tekkentux> maaku, no {"code":-9,"message":"Bitcoin is not connected!"}
2205 2013-08-12 22:43:55 <maaku> did you try sipa's suggestion? shutdown both and restart with -nocheckpoints
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2207 2013-08-12 22:44:49 <maaku> that should work, but if it doesn't you can always sync one, then restart with them only talking to each other again
2208 2013-08-12 22:45:03 <maaku> then within 20 minutes the difficulty will drop to 1
2209 2013-08-12 22:45:29 <sipa> they are started with -testnet, righy?
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2211 2013-08-12 22:48:26 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2212 2013-08-12 22:48:43 <TD> Goonie_: probably we won't ever find out
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2215 2013-08-12 22:49:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: he keeps trying to use the regression testing mode.
2216 2013-08-12 22:49:24 <sipa> ah
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2218 2013-08-12 22:50:15 tekkentux_ is now known as tekkentux
2219 2013-08-12 22:50:23 <tekkentux> sorry pc crashed
2220 2013-08-12 22:50:39 <tekkentux> I'll try -nocheckpoints
2221 2013-08-12 22:50:47 <gmaxwell> tekkentux: are you using testnet or regtest now?
2222 2013-08-12 22:50:54 ielo has joined
2223 2013-08-12 22:50:56 <sipa> regtest doesn't have checkpoints afaik
2224 2013-08-12 22:51:22 one_zero has joined
2225 2013-08-12 22:52:13 <tekkentux> neither nor
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2227 2013-08-12 22:52:53 <tekkentux> I'm now trying to make my own net of just 2 peers
2228 2013-08-12 22:53:06 <sipa> ok a testnet-in-a-box
2229 2013-08-12 22:53:10 <sipa> but then with realnet?
2230 2013-08-12 22:53:17 <tekkentux> yes
2231 2013-08-12 22:53:48 <tekkentux> would it make a difference to use testnet?
2232 2013-08-12 22:59:23 gvdm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2239 2013-08-12 23:13:53 <tekkentux> sipa, I deleted everything in both peers data dirs and restarted both with -nocheckpoints.they still say 240 weeks behind, but I don't know if that is a problem. a bigger problem is that they cannot connect to each other "connect: no route to target host"
2240 2013-08-12 23:14:17 <sipa> what is the exact command line?
2241 2013-08-12 23:14:50 <jgarzik> Full list of NY subpoenaed companies, http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/08/12/every-important-person-in-bitcoin-just-got-subpoenaed-by-new-yorks-financial-regulator/
2242 2013-08-12 23:15:18 <jgarzik> including Google Ventures, interestingly
2243 2013-08-12 23:17:07 <tekkentux> sipa, ./bitcoin-qt -bind=192.168.178.201 -port=2333 -nocheckpoints -connect=192.168.178.202 -datadir=/mnt/data2/bitcoin/home/tekkentux/data1 -server
2244 2013-08-12 23:17:21 <tekkentux> and ./bitcoin-qt -bind=192.16802 -port=2333 -nocheckpoints -connect=192.168.178.201 -datadir=/mnt/data2/bitcoin/home/tekkentux/data2
2245 2013-08-12 23:17:22 <sipa> looks right
2246 2013-08-12 23:17:34 <sipa> you may need to pass -listen explicitly
2247 2013-08-12 23:17:40 <sipa> as -connect disables listening
2248 2013-08-12 23:17:46 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: not ziggap?
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2251 2013-08-12 23:18:13 <tekkentux> ah ok
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2253 2013-08-12 23:19:23 <tekkentux> btw the ip of the second was broken when I copied from terminal at line break.
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2256 2013-08-12 23:21:30 <tekkentux> added -listen, netstat shows that they are actually listening, but still cannot connect to each other: connect: Keine Route zum Zielrechner (no route to target host)
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2262 2013-08-12 23:33:57 <midnightmagic> I think there's a misquote in that Forbes article.
2263 2013-08-12 23:34:41 <midnightmagic> It didn't look to me like the SEC was actually asserting that bitcoin was legal tender; only that shavers was offering investment securities that fell under its jurisdiction. Was there any reference to an SEC argument that bitcoin itself was actual money?
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2267 2013-08-12 23:37:40 <midnightmagic> ah, lame, and there's the thailand misquote too.
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2269 2013-08-12 23:38:59 <c0rw1n> not explicitly in the guideline, but a further page expanded that it might under conditions that are actually those that apply, or maybe not -with a further loophole that might or might not work. So, as usual, the gov' can do exactly whatever they want to anyone who can't afford a lawyer that good
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2274 2013-08-12 23:44:33 <sipa> midnightmagic: i'm pretty sure (but IANAL) that the SEC also has transactions using foreign currencies under its jurisdiction, which are most certainly not legal tender (in that area)
2275 2013-08-12 23:46:18 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2276 2013-08-12 23:46:31 <k9quaint> midnightmagic: a US federal judge declared BTC to be a currency
2277 2013-08-12 23:46:44 <midnightmagic> sipa: It didn't *look* as though they said anything except investment securities, iirc. The judge dugout the definitions and agreed with them they have jurisdiction..
2278 2013-08-12 23:46:57 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2279 2013-08-12 23:47:05 <k9quaint> that might make the ETF subject to currency futures exchange laws
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2291 2013-08-12 23:58:26 <tekkentux> sipa, I gave up on my own testnet in a box and tried https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/ instead ;) I seems to work so far, but I cannot mine (yet?) as it says "bitcoin is downloading blocks". Why does it say that? I should not download anything should it?
2292 2013-08-12 23:58:27 Cory has joined
2293 2013-08-12 23:58:44 <tekkentux> I = It
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2295 2013-08-12 23:59:09 <sipa> how recent is that testnet-in-a-box
2296 2013-08-12 23:59:15 <sipa> does it even have 0.8 database files?
2297 2013-08-12 23:59:25 <sipa> you'll likely need -nocheckpoints there too
2298 2013-08-12 23:59:32 <sipa> as testnet now has some checkpoints