1 2013-08-13 00:00:40 <tekkentux> hmm ok last modification was 2013-03-05
2 2013-08-13 00:00:45 <gavinandresen> that testnet-in-a-box should include the chain up past block 546â¦.
3 2013-08-13 00:00:52 <gavinandresen> (which is the only testnet checkpoint)
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5 2013-08-13 00:02:29 <gavinandresen> tekkentux: are you using Bitcoin-Qt or bitcoind ?
6 2013-08-13 00:02:46 <tekkentux> bitcoind
7 2013-08-13 00:03:01 <tekkentux> now it works. I added -nocheckpoints
8 2013-08-13 00:04:16 <gavinandresen> oh, I see the problem: it's the 16,341 in mapCheckpointsTestnet for estimating how many blocks there are
9 2013-08-13 00:04:41 <sipa> gavinandresen: any progress with the corruption bug?
10 2013-08-13 00:04:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: no, I just commented on the pull that I'm moving on
11 2013-08-13 00:05:11 <sipa> ok
12 2013-08-13 00:05:19 <gavinandresen> sipa: -reindex with paranoid turned on finished with no issues
13 2013-08-13 00:05:38 <gavinandresen> ⦠and given that I ran for several months with no problems, that was expected
14 2013-08-13 00:06:01 <sipa> yeah
15 2013-08-13 00:06:03 <tekkentux> gavinandresen, does it make a difference if I use bitcoin-qt instead of bitcoind?
16 2013-08-13 00:06:10 <sipa> it shouldn't
17 2013-08-13 00:06:19 <sipa> with -qt you need -server
18 2013-08-13 00:06:24 <sipa> but that's about it
19 2013-08-13 00:06:25 <gavinandresen> tekkentux: no, just bitcoin-qt has more GUI for telling users they are behind
20 2013-08-13 00:06:37 <tekkentux> ok
21 2013-08-13 00:07:02 <gavinandresen> I'll update testnet-in-a-box to set checkpoints=0 in the bitcoin.conf files
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28 2013-08-13 00:21:08 * sipa .sleep(25000);
29 2013-08-13 00:21:12 <gavinandresen> testnet3-box.zip updated, I added checkpoints=0 to the bitcoin.conf files, updated the README a bit, and updated to the 0.8 file structure
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33 2013-08-13 00:37:16 <tekkentux> so g2g thank you all for help
34 2013-08-13 00:37:16 <tekkentux> cu
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123 2013-08-13 03:24:24 <jgarzik> bitmessage uses xml-rpc? puke.
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132 2013-08-13 03:48:13 <jgarzik> the Tor protocol is such crap
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134 2013-08-13 03:53:50 <Cusipzzz> blasphemer! :)
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155 2013-08-13 04:32:46 <jgarzik> slow blocks
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157 2013-08-13 04:33:11 * jgarzik turns on setgenerate, and sure enough, a block appears
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164 2013-08-13 04:52:30 <Luke-Jr> lol
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166 2013-08-13 04:55:10 <jgarzik> It is disappointing that the bitcoind coin chooser likes to split big coins, rather than gather up small coins
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170 2013-08-13 04:58:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it's easy to reverse that but you very rapidly get txn which are too big to be free. We need to change the rules for free txn to not count up to 200 bytes of per input. I have a patch... kind of afraid of shed painting, there is no perfect solution.
171 2013-08-13 04:59:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: as far as selection, you could also easily make a post selection pass to add additional inputs from the same 'taint group' as the exsting ones, one at a time until the txn is as large as it cares to make it.
172 2013-08-13 05:00:06 <gmaxwell> limiting it to the same taint group makes it less powerful, but means that its basically no compromise.
173 2013-08-13 05:00:58 <gmaxwell> it would also be nice to have a button to 'donate' all your really tiny inputs by creating a ANYONE_CAN_PAY|NONE signature for each of them and broadcasting it or sending it someplace where it can be merged by miners into sweeping transactions if there is free space left in their blocks.
174 2013-08-13 05:01:09 <gmaxwell> should be able to get rid of a lot of the 1e-8 outputs that way.
175 2013-08-13 05:01:23 <gmaxwell> also a lot of the other really small ones people seem to be sending for deanonymization purposes.
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177 2013-08-13 05:04:17 <jgarzik> That would be nice. Spit out such a transaction, and give people an opportunity to clean that up.
178 2013-08-13 05:04:33 <jgarzik> Though even easier is "donate dust to miner", adding a couple dusts for each new transaction
179 2013-08-13 05:04:53 <jgarzik> "if tx < 5k, add dust up to 5k or donation limit"
180 2013-08-13 05:06:23 <jgarzik> or really even "if tx < 1k"
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185 2013-08-13 05:09:12 <gmaxwell> even just a one time "hey, your wallet has a lot of dustâ you have 3213 outputs amounting to 0.000001 BTC. This dust slows down bitcoin for you and everyone else. [Get rid of this dust!] [I suck] [Are you my mommy?]" that just sends off a bunch of ANYONE_CAN_PAY|NONE to some collector running on bitcoin.org or something.. would probably reduce the utxo set size a lot.
186 2013-08-13 05:10:24 <gmaxwell> The other idea I had was a dust cleaning constest. Put out some tools for helping people clean dust... and give away some big prizes... like 1, 1, 1, 1, 10, 10 btc to some randomly selected destroyers of dust that was created say, before aug 1st.
187 2013-08-13 05:10:41 <gmaxwell> maybe even with the odds weighed by the inverse-bitcoin days destroyed.
188 2013-08-13 05:11:06 <gmaxwell> would cause people to go dig up old unused wallets full of SD dust and get it off the network.
189 2013-08-13 05:11:26 <gmaxwell> I think we we don't get people to destroy their old SD dust soon, a lot of it will become unrecoverable.
190 2013-08-13 05:11:37 <gmaxwell> (because the keys will be lost)
191 2013-08-13 05:11:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hmm, so I should avoid cleaning dust until you have the contest? :P
192 2013-08-13 05:12:51 * gmaxwell swats Luke-Jr
193 2013-08-13 05:13:03 <gmaxwell> I'm willing to bet you've already cleaned up all your really small dust. :P
194 2013-08-13 05:13:53 <Luke-Jr> unfortunately before Aug 1 :<
195 2013-08-13 05:15:51 <gmaxwell> I certantly don't have any.
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199 2013-08-13 05:17:43 * jgarzik still thinks pools should not create all-the-way-to-8-decimal-places payments
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201 2013-08-13 05:18:06 <Luke-Jr> that's silly, and entirely unrelated to dust
202 2013-08-13 05:18:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it makes people create dusty change though..
203 2013-08-13 05:18:23 <gmaxwell> and jagged change.
204 2013-08-13 05:18:24 <jgarzik> not entirely unrelated
205 2013-08-13 05:18:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not really
206 2013-08-13 05:18:33 <jgarzik> yes really
207 2013-08-13 05:18:49 <Luke-Jr> jagged maybe, but that's harmless
208 2013-08-13 05:18:53 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: alternatively, a send button that knows how to round up to avoid change would be handy... e.g. when you're paying yourself. Make mtgox deal with the sharp coins.
209 2013-08-13 05:20:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: e.g. you pay me 1.002345678 BTC then I spend 1. now I have a .002345678 output that I'm never going to use. If coin selection was smarter perhaps it would add inputs (from the same taint group) to try to get the change closer in size to the real output or something and it would be less of an issue.
210 2013-08-13 05:20:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: only if your wallet is empty
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212 2013-08-13 05:20:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it WILL add more inputs to make the change >.01 BTC
213 2013-08-13 05:20:55 <gmaxwell> The two polar behaviors that are good is no change at all, and change which reflects your future spending sizes. Jagged doesn't help either of those.
214 2013-08-13 05:21:09 <jgarzik> if mtgox was smart, they would only trade in 1 BTC increments
215 2013-08-13 05:21:11 <Luke-Jr> and if it *can't* get change >.01 BTC, it will demand you use it as a fee
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219 2013-08-13 05:21:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I know.
220 2013-08-13 05:21:39 <jgarzik> currently people play silly games with fractional amounts @ mtgox. that was one way to game the system, overwhelming it with tiny orders.
221 2013-08-13 05:21:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I thought they fixed that?
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225 2013-08-13 05:23:23 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, The new trade engine should fix that, purportedly. Unsure if that was just-deployed or almost-deployed.
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228 2013-08-13 05:26:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: also, "make my chage the size of my future transactions" is approximated by "make my change the size of the current transaction"â and better approximations (like using your txn history) have privacy risks.
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233 2013-08-13 05:33:13 <jgarzik> Windows people love defragging.
234 2013-08-13 05:33:20 <jgarzik> Have a "defragment wallet" button/dialog.
235 2013-08-13 05:33:31 <jgarzik> or "optimize"
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237 2013-08-13 05:35:14 <gmaxwell> needs a visualization "coin fragmentation"
238 2013-08-13 05:35:42 <gmaxwell> [###.//_XXX/x-.x-@@_x-x-#####......##x-@_$@@]
239 2013-08-13 05:35:55 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: a dust-cleaning contest is a great idea. Next deadline for foundation grants is 23-September if you're motivated enough to write a proposal
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241 2013-08-13 05:36:12 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: sounds like a plan.
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243 2013-08-13 05:37:26 <Graet> oooh! visualization :D
244 2013-08-13 05:37:28 <Graet> >.>
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255 2013-08-13 05:45:14 <warren> hmm, Mac OS X corruption issue?
256 2013-08-13 05:47:27 <gmaxwell> what about it?
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262 2013-08-13 05:53:27 <warren> gmaxwell: curious if discussion about it is in any issue or PR.
263 2013-08-13 05:54:00 <warren> oh, found it: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770
264 2013-08-13 05:54:13 <gmaxwell> warren: a bunch of people have reported it in a bunch of places, not just there.
265 2013-08-13 05:54:24 <gmaxwell> seems that one common trigger is suspending the system and waking it back up.
266 2013-08-13 05:54:57 <warren> ahhh
267 2013-08-13 05:55:25 <warren> thanks
268 2013-08-13 05:55:40 <gmaxwell> I'd take some WAG that OSX is corrupting mmaped files on suspend. More people looking at this would be good.
269 2013-08-13 05:56:11 <warren> I'll sic our OS X guy on it. He wanted more tasks assigned.
270 2013-08-13 05:56:31 <Diablo-D3> actually
271 2013-08-13 05:56:33 <Diablo-D3> WHICH suspend?
272 2013-08-13 05:56:38 <warren> good question
273 2013-08-13 05:56:52 <Diablo-D3> because osx with powernap is a completely different kind of suspend we probably could use
274 2013-08-13 05:57:33 <Diablo-D3> keep a bitcoind subprocess running that uploads and downloads chain shit
275 2013-08-13 05:57:39 <warren> gmaxwell: so the encrypted filesystem thing wasn't part of it, or not confirmed?
276 2013-08-13 05:57:45 <Diablo-D3> and osx does provide an API iirc to do events on power states
277 2013-08-13 05:57:56 <Diablo-D3> so even if it corrupts shit on suspend, we can just close all the files
278 2013-08-13 05:58:47 <gmaxwell> warren: don't think its relevant, but there could be multiple issues.
279 2013-08-13 05:59:32 <warren> after 0.8.0 was released we heard reports of Windows and btrfs index corruption on unclean shutdown, have those gone away?
280 2013-08-13 05:59:46 <warren> I haven't seen them in a long time now, personally.
281 2013-08-13 06:00:09 <gmaxwell> if not, they're pretty rare, there has been a couple instances of windows that really looked like they could have been hardware.
282 2013-08-13 06:00:26 <gmaxwell> we fixed some issues that could have been corrupting it on windows (running out of FDs)
283 2013-08-13 06:00:40 <warren> ah
284 2013-08-13 06:00:57 <gmaxwell> OSX is the big sore spot.
285 2013-08-13 06:01:34 <warren> Diablo-D3's idea of using OSX's suspend API to close things might be good, but it might also hide the real problem.
286 2013-08-13 06:02:05 <gmaxwell> yea, the real problem needs to get fixed in any case. unclean shutdowns are killing it too in OSX.
287 2013-08-13 06:02:22 <gmaxwell> or at least I've seen reports that suggested that to be the case.
288 2013-08-13 06:02:44 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm allocating part of our dev fund to a bug bounty for this. <amount> for a consistent reproduce procedure. <bigger amount> for a fix that passes bitcoin dev scrutiny and inclusion into master.
289 2013-08-13 06:03:08 <gmaxwell> warren: thank you!
290 2013-08-13 06:03:35 <warren> gavinandresen earlier mentioned that BF should create a bug bounty program, only they need a volunteer to coordinate it.
291 2013-08-13 06:03:41 <gmaxwell> I'd be appriciative if ltc could help with this, it's been an annoyance for a while and the overlap of good testers and OSX users isn't high.
292 2013-08-13 06:03:44 AusBitBank_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
293 2013-08-13 06:04:03 <gavinandresen> I did?
294 2013-08-13 06:04:06 AusBitBank_ has joined
295 2013-08-13 06:04:12 <warren> gavinandresen, yeah, it was a while back?
296 2013-08-13 06:04:44 <Diablo-D3> [02:01:31] <warren> Diablo-D3's idea of using OSX's suspend API to close things might be good, but it might also hide the real problem.
297 2013-08-13 06:04:46 <Diablo-D3> it hides it BUT
298 2013-08-13 06:04:56 <Diablo-D3> at least it stops it until its fixed
299 2013-08-13 06:04:56 <gavinandresen> okey dokey. A grant for some person or group to award bounties for security issues in the protocol or reference implementation makes sense. I think.
300 2013-08-13 06:04:57 <Diablo-D3> and since its osx
301 2013-08-13 06:05:00 <Diablo-D3> it wont ever be fixed
302 2013-08-13 06:05:10 <gavinandresen> general bugs⦠we've got plenty of those.
303 2013-08-13 06:05:14 * Diablo-D3 stares at apples opencl stack and glares
304 2013-08-13 06:05:36 saulimus has joined
305 2013-08-13 06:06:28 <warren> corruption is a big general bug
306 2013-08-13 06:07:18 <warren> gavinandresen: would it be a good idea for <some entity> to have a bucket for mac users to donate to to increase incentive to find and fix the issue?
307 2013-08-13 06:07:49 <Diablo-D3> actually, we should be using power event APIs on every platform
308 2013-08-13 06:07:49 <gavinandresen> cool. Good experiment, I'll be very interested to see if setting a bounty gets the job done. Hard bit will be to figure out if code fixes "a" corruption issue or "the" corruption issue.
309 2013-08-13 06:08:01 <Diablo-D3> correctly close all the files, correctly close all the sockets, etc
310 2013-08-13 06:09:08 <warren> gavinandresen: carefully defining the issue and bounty conditions would be important (I am not aware of the details myself, and I have no mac). Also the condition where "must be accepted by bitcoin devs into master and prove itself after subsequent testing to a release" may help.
311 2013-08-13 06:09:08 <gavinandresen> warren: dunno if it would be a good idea or not, never tried it. Have other projects had luck giving bounties for fixing bugs?
312 2013-08-13 06:09:09 <gmaxwell> the obvious thing to do with this bounty is go to the leveldb upstream devs. :P
313 2013-08-13 06:09:25 <gmaxwell> perhaps the novelty of recieving bitcoin will get their attention
314 2013-08-13 06:09:39 <gmaxwell> *coin.
315 2013-08-13 06:09:55 <warren> I'm willing to offer some of our dev funds to even a consistent reproduce procedure. Bored non-devs can abuse their systems and figure that out.
316 2013-08-13 06:11:04 <jgarzik> meh, leveldb is so simple, just rewrite it, to fix the corruption problem :)
317 2013-08-13 06:11:05 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
318 2013-08-13 06:11:27 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: ORLY
319 2013-08-13 06:11:37 <Diablo-D3> I tried to write something like leveldb once
320 2013-08-13 06:11:40 <Diablo-D3> because I hated bdb
321 2013-08-13 06:11:46 <Diablo-D3> its not as simple as you think
322 2013-08-13 06:11:47 <warren> bdb isn't dead yet
323 2013-08-13 06:12:21 Namworld has quit ()
324 2013-08-13 06:12:32 <toffoo> gmaxwell one data point for you here on your OSX corruption theory: in my case I literally NEVER shutdown or suspended my MacBook with bitcoin-qt running, so I am suspicious of that theory ⦠but I did ALWAYS run it on an SSD drive with FileVault full disk encryption
325 2013-08-13 06:12:33 <warren> Given that nobody knows for sure how to consistently cause the corruption, that's the first step.
326 2013-08-13 06:12:56 <Diablo-D3> I also use an encrypted ssd in osx on 10.8
327 2013-08-13 06:13:00 <Diablo-D3> Ive never seen corruption
328 2013-08-13 06:13:23 <toffoo> Diablo-D3 which exact bitcoin-qt version are you on?
329 2013-08-13 06:13:30 <Diablo-D3> the newest one
330 2013-08-13 06:13:46 <warren> 0.8.2 and 0.8.3 are pretty much the same
331 2013-08-13 06:14:00 <Diablo-D3> I hate using it because the UI is fucked up
332 2013-08-13 06:14:09 <Diablo-D3> if I close the bitcoin window I cant reopen it
333 2013-08-13 06:14:15 <toffoo> that was supposed to be fixed
334 2013-08-13 06:14:21 <toffoo> in the latest one
335 2013-08-13 06:14:35 <toffoo> and from what I remember it was
336 2013-08-13 06:14:37 <Diablo-D3> I havent tried it
337 2013-08-13 06:16:21 <gmaxwell> toffoo: it's not unlikely that there are multiple triggers and perhaps multiple root causes.
338 2013-08-13 06:17:00 <toffoo> that makes perfect sense
339 2013-08-13 06:21:31 macboz_ has joined
340 2013-08-13 06:23:36 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
341 2013-08-13 06:25:54 <toffoo> has there been any comment from the devs on that "satoshi patch in the blockchain" from earlier today?
342 2013-08-13 06:26:45 <jgarzik> yes
343 2013-08-13 06:28:22 <warren> whaaaa?
344 2013-08-13 06:28:42 <gavinandresen> warren: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1k7ol2/an_interesting_transaction/
345 2013-08-13 06:29:22 <gavinandresen> If it ain't gpg signed, it almost certainly ain't Satoshi.
346 2013-08-13 06:29:56 <gmaxwell> yea. almost certantly notâ although I wasn't aware of the 16 bit opcode stuff. So that was at least amusing!
347 2013-08-13 06:31:47 <gmaxwell> But hey, if whomever it is wants to keep sending useful patches, sounds fine to me. He can call himself whatever he wants.
348 2013-08-13 06:32:11 <warren> although attribution of the commit is a big question mark
349 2013-08-13 06:32:52 <gmaxwell> warren: it's anonymous in any case. :P not exactly an attribution concern on pure code removal. :P
350 2013-08-13 06:32:58 yubrew has joined
351 2013-08-13 06:33:04 <warren> heh
352 2013-08-13 06:33:06 <gmaxwell> warren: its a patch to the electrum code.
353 2013-08-13 06:33:14 <warren> I know.
354 2013-08-13 06:34:35 <gmaxwell> one point about weird txn is that eligius is now taking more of them, so we'll probably se more get mined.
355 2013-08-13 06:35:40 HaltingState has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
356 2013-08-13 06:36:35 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
357 2013-08-13 06:37:08 <gmaxwell> warren: when the patch was first linked to I went and posted it on the bct thread with my own decode of it. People then went and looked at bc.i and satoshi's email address was gone because of lack of HTML escaping. This made several people contact me, thinking that I was satoshi and goofed up and leaked it on BCT, kindly pointing it out and suggesting I quickly delete the post. (very kind and flattering of people!)
358 2013-08-13 06:37:19 <Luke-Jr> I think petertodd is credit for dealing with the relay issues
359 2013-08-13 06:37:23 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
360 2013-08-13 06:37:34 augustl has left ()
361 2013-08-13 06:38:10 <Luke-Jr> is to credit*
362 2013-08-13 06:41:11 <toffoo> has anyone tried following the burned coins? they look too new to be satoshi's ;D
363 2013-08-13 06:41:11 <warren> <gavinandresen> okey dokey. A grant for some person or group to award bounties for security issues in the protocol or reference implementation makes sense. I think.
364 2013-08-13 06:41:14 abrkn has joined
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367 2013-08-13 06:42:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: "Wow Satoshi! You're coding skill have improved so much!"
368 2013-08-13 06:42:29 <warren> gavinandresen: I'd like to help coordinate this, although I'm severely oversubscribed now. This is also tough in that you need such person(s) to be privy to the responsible disclosure knowledge which could be a horribly tough burden.
369 2013-08-13 06:42:35 <warren> petertodd: heh
370 2013-08-13 06:43:55 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
371 2013-08-13 06:43:55 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: but not your English! :p
372 2013-08-13 06:44:08 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: lol
373 2013-08-13 06:45:57 grau has joined
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375 2013-08-13 06:50:20 <warren> I'll propose to the LTC team about making a bounty for a reproduce procedure and maybe fix too. I strongly suggest the BTC community make a similar bounty. If BF isn't setup to fund it, then <someone trusted> should make a collection.
376 2013-08-13 06:50:32 qbasicer has joined
377 2013-08-13 06:50:43 <warren> Perhaps it's helpful enough to just identify how to corrupt it.
378 2013-08-13 06:50:49 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: by "dealing" all I did was bug you repeatedly :) though speaking of, think there would be value to having a second non-std relay node on the wiki?
379 2013-08-13 06:50:52 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you'll likely find the figures in this interesting: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272709.msg2922718#msg2922718
380 2013-08-13 06:53:14 yubrew has joined
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382 2013-08-13 06:54:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in particular, they give an empirical delay vs blocksize for several points on the distribution.
383 2013-08-13 06:55:19 <gmaxwell> on the downside, all their data is pretty old.
384 2013-08-13 06:56:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: where is your old abandoned forward-block-before validation code?
385 2013-08-13 06:59:46 Eiii has quit ()
386 2013-08-13 07:02:25 * Luke-Jr wonders why 'git branch' takes 5 seconds to list his branches <.<
387 2013-08-13 07:02:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: fastblockrelay
388 2013-08-13 07:02:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: note it never actually worked due to socket stuff
389 2013-08-13 07:02:57 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: possibly
390 2013-08-13 07:03:50 OPrime has joined
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392 2013-08-13 07:04:58 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
393 2013-08-13 07:08:14 <petertodd> Luke-Jr:gmaxwell: ironic that my internet connection died just as I was opening that...
394 2013-08-13 07:08:43 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: will do then
395 2013-08-13 07:10:32 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
396 2013-08-13 07:15:17 <petertodd> "By extracting the timestamps from the blocks at height
397 2013-08-13 07:15:17 <petertodd> 180â000 through 190â000 we get the distribution shown in
398 2013-08-13 07:15:18 <petertodd> Figure 6."
399 2013-08-13 07:15:23 BTCOxygen has joined
400 2013-08-13 07:15:36 <petertodd> <- when was nTime rolling implemented?
401 2013-08-13 07:16:40 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
402 2013-08-13 07:17:22 <gmaxwell> oh timestamps. :-/
403 2013-08-13 07:17:27 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
404 2013-08-13 07:18:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: pools make it even harder to get the data they want - propagation within the general p2p network may have little to do with propagation to majority hashing power
405 2013-08-13 07:20:18 <petertodd> I do like how they used a 4000 peer node to manipulate the width of the network
406 2013-08-13 07:20:29 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: to make things more fun, ntime rolling is to date not implemented consistently!
407 2013-08-13 07:20:41 cut has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
408 2013-08-13 07:20:49 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: so different windows?
409 2013-08-13 07:20:55 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ?
410 2013-08-13 07:21:16 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea that was that python block forwarder thing that also forwarded totally invalid stuff, weird that they didn't mention it getting DOSed from the network.
411 2013-08-13 07:21:42 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: IE my implementation rolls up to x seconds, yours y seconds
412 2013-08-13 07:22:01 <Luke-Jr> cgminer only rolls ntime for getwork, and not related to real time at all. BFGMiner does the same for getwork, but rolls time correctly for GBT and stratum. not sure where poclbm is on this now
413 2013-08-13 07:22:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah! Those guys.... So they didn't check anything at all?
414 2013-08-13 07:23:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: diff1 was enough to make it through.
415 2013-08-13 07:23:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ...
416 2013-08-13 07:23:16 <gmaxwell> at least at one point.
417 2013-08-13 07:23:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: heh
418 2013-08-13 07:24:05 gvdm has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
419 2013-08-13 07:24:06 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: right, what do you mean by "not related to real time at all" ?
420 2013-08-13 07:24:24 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: incremented just to produce new work
421 2013-08-13 07:24:42 <Luke-Jr> as opposed to incremented once a second
422 2013-08-13 07:25:00 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ha!
423 2013-08-13 07:25:51 <gmaxwell> http://pastebin.com/Vz1V9H8d < is this too harsh?
424 2013-08-13 07:26:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: no, that's a very good point to make
425 2013-08-13 07:27:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: for Bitcoin the leading peer-reviewed journal is the email list and wizards
426 2013-08-13 07:27:33 <gmaxwell> I'm currently reviewing another paper, fwiw, which has 3/4 of its citations as logs here, and BCT and such.
427 2013-08-13 07:27:41 <petertodd> nice!
428 2013-08-13 07:28:32 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:Hardfork_Wishlist#.27Permanent_Forwarding.27 <-- might need input from a third party
429 2013-08-13 07:29:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: there is still development that takes place on bitcointroll? O.o
430 2013-08-13 07:30:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: sure, just filter out everyone who doesn't have the "bitcoin expert" icon...
431 2013-08-13 07:30:24 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
432 2013-08-13 07:30:25 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: is there an option for that? :oi
433 2013-08-13 07:30:46 Odyessus has joined
434 2013-08-13 07:31:08 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: too bad bitcoin wasn't designed such that address reuse was actually impossible, like lamport sigs do
435 2013-08-13 07:32:19 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: could still be done, sortof - just modify clients to reject sending to addresses they've seen
436 2013-08-13 07:32:27 gvdm has joined
437 2013-08-13 07:32:43 <Luke-Jr> it wouldn't work 100% for non-full nodes, but would likely make it useless enough..
438 2013-08-13 07:32:49 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: sure, but that's not the same as actually making such stuff insecure
439 2013-08-13 07:33:15 <Luke-Jr> can we spec out a K selection that does this maybe?
440 2013-08-13 07:33:25 <petertodd> lol, good idea!
441 2013-08-13 07:33:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I do think some priority logic that did that would be an interesting start. (priortize unseen addresses)
442 2013-08-13 07:33:37 <petertodd> K=Hash(scriptPubKey) would work
443 2013-08-13 07:33:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: no, if K is known the game is over.
444 2013-08-13 07:34:03 <gmaxwell> (seems that I'm correcting everyone on that today)
445 2013-08-13 07:34:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, so what, it's R I'm talking about?
446 2013-08-13 07:34:17 RoboTeddy has joined
447 2013-08-13 07:34:34 <gmaxwell> petertodd: R is just K*g. when K gets reused the result is that you can recover K, knowing K you can recover the private key.
448 2013-08-13 07:34:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, back to lamport then
449 2013-08-13 07:35:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yeah, that's been on my todo list for a while.. kinda waiting for the child-pays-for-parent to get merged in some way or another
450 2013-08-13 07:35:25 <Luke-Jr> K = SHA256d(private key)
451 2013-08-13 07:35:29 <Luke-Jr> :>
452 2013-08-13 07:35:30 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: even just rate limiting reuse inside a block would be an improvement, and an extra reason to advise against reuse.
453 2013-08-13 07:35:45 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yeah, sipa's doing changes that make my cpfp not worth working on for now given how much I'll need to modify
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456 2013-08-13 07:36:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think you and petertodd are going too far here. To some extentâ anonymous tip jars, at least... reuse is a mostly harmless asset (though those things can be super down prioritized)
457 2013-08-13 07:36:12 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: accompanied by a zero-knowledge proof that K is actually sha256d...
458 2013-08-13 07:36:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it's no longer an anonymous tip jar ;)
459 2013-08-13 07:36:52 <gmaxwell> yea I mean a different meaning of anonymous.
460 2013-08-13 07:36:58 <Luke-Jr> ah, ok I get that
461 2013-08-13 07:37:00 <gmaxwell> Where the transacting parties are arms-length.
462 2013-08-13 07:37:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: HD pubkeys could replace that need
463 2013-08-13 07:37:20 <Luke-Jr> made into an address form
464 2013-08-13 07:37:22 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
465 2013-08-13 07:37:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, but you can agree that if we had a reason to do something that made address re-use impossible, it wouldn't be a big deal
466 2013-08-13 07:37:45 <gmaxwell> It could certantly reduce that, yes. And I think thats a good step forward. Though even thatâ what happens when two people read the address at once and send at once?
467 2013-08-13 07:37:58 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: problematic for SPV clients... which is why they wind up reusing addresses so much already :(
468 2013-08-13 07:38:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if we had a reason, and keeping that option open is one of the reasons to discourag reuse. (though dwarfed by fungibility risk)
469 2013-08-13 07:38:27 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
470 2013-08-13 07:38:37 <Luke-Jr> hmm
471 2013-08-13 07:39:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if the child number is based on the sender rather than incrementally..
472 2013-08-13 07:39:04 <gmaxwell> Though keep in mind, even lamport doesn't totally preclude reuse, you can make your lamport key really a hash tree of 1024 lamport keys. Now you can safely reuse 1024 times.
473 2013-08-13 07:39:13 <Luke-Jr> but then we need a way to identify them
474 2013-08-13 07:39:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sure, but then it's a merkle signature scheme
475 2013-08-13 07:39:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, you should go see some of bytecoins pay-to-ECDH proposals. (where is bytecoin these days?)
476 2013-08-13 07:39:53 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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478 2013-08-13 07:40:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell
479 2013-08-13 07:40:37 <gmaxwell> In any case, I'm convinced that we can adequately discourage reuse through carrots more than sticks, and sticks are just not viable when the public can't understand the benefits (and if they do, you don't need the sticks)
480 2013-08-13 07:40:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: gah, read the whole paper and I can't see how to use their data to work out profitability of large vs. small blocks
481 2013-08-13 07:40:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: amazed they don't seem to think of that
482 2013-08-13 07:41:32 <gmaxwell> petertodd: they give a delay per byte for large blocks "to a majority" (whatever that means). You can combined that with the PDF and compute the race odds.
483 2013-08-13 07:41:57 <gmaxwell> the bummer is that these are pre-ultraprune numbers.
484 2013-08-13 07:42:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh right, although still not something I can just eyeball
485 2013-08-13 07:42:30 <gmaxwell> though I think post-signature cache.
486 2013-08-13 07:44:02 <gmaxwell> Things like good BIP32 addresses to allow addresses that don't get reused (much), payment protocol (uh and something like it that doesn't require a webserver :( ), priortizing non-reuse even if it's just recent non-reuse, changes to UI to not constantly direct people to old addresses (armory gets this right).... determinstic wallets for better backups..
487 2013-08-13 07:44:22 <gmaxwell> with that stuff I think we're well on the way to taming the worst of the reuse.
488 2013-08-13 07:44:50 <petertodd> oh, actually, maybe this is enough for the rough estimate: 80ms per additional 1KB to get to majority, so that's 80ms/600s = 0.00013 * 25BTC = 0.0033BTC/KB breakeven
489 2013-08-13 07:45:27 <petertodd> 0.001BTC/KB is probably roughly right with ultraprune improvements
490 2013-08-13 07:45:55 <gmaxwell> worse because the exponential distribution's median is less than the mean... there are more fast blocks.
491 2013-08-13 07:46:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, median is 8 minutes?
492 2013-08-13 07:46:53 RoboTeddy has joined
493 2013-08-13 07:47:04 <gmaxwell> .69 * expectation, I think. though it is late.
494 2013-08-13 07:47:52 rawdr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
495 2013-08-13 07:48:39 <petertodd> ok, so that works out to ~0.005BTC/KB break even, given that tx cost - inflation / txs - is 0.1BTC/tx that feels very roughly right
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499 2013-08-13 07:49:41 <petertodd> so if anything, my p2pool node setting of 0.005BTC/KB are about right
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508 2013-08-13 07:56:01 * Luke-Jr ponders if sipa's address index can easily be used to blacklist any previously used address
509 2013-08-13 07:56:32 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: just do a big bloom filter with per-node keys
510 2013-08-13 07:56:36 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think it can, but I think thats too expensive and too harsh.
511 2013-08-13 07:56:36 macboz has joined
512 2013-08-13 07:56:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: just keep one of those limited capacity maps around and test transactions against addresses you've already seen.
513 2013-08-13 07:56:54 PrimeStunna has joined
514 2013-08-13 07:56:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: meh, Eligius is only 5%
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516 2013-08-13 07:57:17 <Luke-Jr> I suppose merely filtering the mempool would work
517 2013-08-13 07:57:40 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'd like to encourage other people to run such a patch, maybe even make it a system default... though we could only do a minimally harsh version of it for that.
518 2013-08-13 07:59:17 <Luke-Jr> if we index the mempool by first output address, that'd save memory
519 2013-08-13 07:59:24 <Luke-Jr> (instead of by txid)
520 2013-08-13 07:59:28 <Luke-Jr> otoh, might not be practical
521 2013-08-13 08:00:38 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: mempool needs txid indexes for a few things
522 2013-08-13 08:02:09 <Luke-Jr> too bad inputs don't refer to coins by a hash of the output
523 2013-08-13 08:02:11 <petertodd> Oh, that reminds me: I was thinking it would have made more sense if signatures refered to txin's by H(scriptPubKey) rather than H(tx)
524 2013-08-13 08:02:17 <petertodd> er, exactly
525 2013-08-13 08:02:20 <Luke-Jr> that'd fix so many things..
526 2013-08-13 08:02:35 <petertodd> Yup, and it prohibits address reuse because you'd be able to reuse signatures.
527 2013-08-13 08:02:51 <petertodd> We can add ths with a new CHECKSIG...
528 2013-08-13 08:03:05 <Luke-Jr> we can?
529 2013-08-13 08:03:32 <Luke-Jr> I don't think it would work..
530 2013-08-13 08:03:39 <petertodd> Yes, make the has be of the scriptPubKeys, and leave the txid's in the tx itself as just a way to quickly find the scriptPubKeys in question.
531 2013-08-13 08:03:40 <Luke-Jr> short of a hardfork
532 2013-08-13 08:03:53 <petertodd> Nope, you can add any new opcode with a soft-fork.
533 2013-08-13 08:04:36 <Luke-Jr> hmm
534 2013-08-13 08:05:14 <petertodd> Specifically redefine OP_NOPn as OP_MAST and make OP_MAST fail the script if the inner script evaluation returns false, otherwise do nothing.
535 2013-08-13 08:05:22 <petertodd> s/MAST/EVAL/
536 2013-08-13 08:06:34 t7 has joined
537 2013-08-13 08:06:58 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: were you here for OP_EVAL? :p
538 2013-08-13 08:07:23 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: sort of... I was a bit distracted by second year calculus/analysis :)
539 2013-08-13 08:07:28 <petertodd> looked ugly...
540 2013-08-13 08:08:07 <gmaxwell> H(scriptpubkey) isn't unique.
541 2013-08-13 08:08:14 agnostic98 has joined
542 2013-08-13 08:08:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It is if you don't re-use addresses...
543 2013-08-13 08:08:55 <petertodd> (obviously I'm handwaving a bit, you want to sign lists of scriptPubKeys like txids can be signed in various ways)
544 2013-08-13 08:09:12 <petertodd> (well, minimal is probably sets...)
545 2013-08-13 08:09:55 <gmaxwell> Yea, you're handwavingâ but sure this is what etotheipi really wants with his utxo stuff... otherwise it means >100% overhead on every mining node just to enable lazy wallets.
546 2013-08-13 08:09:56 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
547 2013-08-13 08:10:34 <petertodd> Oh, how does this fit in with UTXO exactly? By removing the need to have txid's?
548 2013-08-13 08:10:35 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
549 2013-08-13 08:11:00 <gmaxwell> I don't know if any kind of index on scriptpubkey is fundimentally sound, it instantly creates big benefits for reuse. I suppose, unless you preclude it.. and precluding it is darn tricky due to payment races on public addresses.
550 2013-08-13 08:11:14 BTCOxygen has joined
551 2013-08-13 08:11:31 Eagle[TM] has joined
552 2013-08-13 08:11:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Well worse comes to worst you can always bodge in a nonce...
553 2013-08-13 08:11:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well, what he really wants is a utxo on scriptpubkeys so that lite wallets can just fetch all their transactions (hello huge reuse payoff!), so most of his writing is about commiting _that_ tree, which you can't use for validation, so oh yea on the side you need this extra one.
554 2013-08-13 08:12:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, and if you unique via a nonce then thats a huge benefits for reuse and all the fungiblity hazards that arise
555 2013-08-13 08:12:24 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
556 2013-08-13 08:12:37 <petertodd> Yeah, and there is no soft-fork upgrade path that doesn't involve maintaining two tx indexes at some point.
557 2013-08-13 08:13:03 <gmaxwell> right, thats why I said what you were suggesting was what he really wanted, not what he can actually have. :P
558 2013-08-13 08:13:14 <petertodd> Yup... stupid Satoshi
559 2013-08-13 08:13:21 <gmaxwell> Smart smart satoshi.
560 2013-08-13 08:13:51 <gmaxwell> All these index by scripthash things superbly reward reuse, they're hazards to the system unless you've somehow perfected recovering fungiblity.
561 2013-08-13 08:13:54 <petertodd> Not smart enough! You can't even beat a half dozen experts with years of experience who spend hours every week.
562 2013-08-13 08:14:20 * gmaxwell runs sloccount ... still beating you and I
563 2013-08-13 08:14:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Unless you make CHECKSIG work on scriptPubKeys so address reuse can't work...
564 2013-08-13 08:14:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Is there anyone who doesn't beat me? :P
565 2013-08-13 08:15:31 <warren> I guess we'll offer 133.7 LTC for a reproduce procedure, just to be lame.
566 2013-08-13 08:15:39 <gmaxwell> I mean, you can't have it both waysâ you either have the payment race or you have no reuse at all. A nonce can't help you, since it creates functional reuse.
567 2013-08-13 08:15:43 <petertodd> warren: lol
568 2013-08-13 08:15:58 <petertodd> warren: oh, make it a P2SH addr for donations, so you can advertise the same addr on LTC and BTC
569 2013-08-13 08:16:20 <warren> petertodd: I will not manage the Bitcoin donation bucket for the bug
570 2013-08-13 08:16:24 <gmaxwell> ... can you not distinguish a p2pool p2sh from a bitcoin one???
571 2013-08-13 08:16:36 <warren> petertodd: someone trusted in the bitcoin community should do that
572 2013-08-13 08:17:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, the only real solution is payment protocols, like... oh wait, send to ip! :P
573 2013-08-13 08:17:06 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
574 2013-08-13 08:17:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: someone didn't read my audit report in full :)
575 2013-08-13 08:17:23 * warren facepalm.
576 2013-08-13 08:17:28 <gmaxwell> :P
577 2013-08-13 08:17:51 <petertodd> warren: feel free to use me on that actually - I don't have a Mac... :)
578 2013-08-13 08:18:01 <warren> I should have included a verbosity penalty clause in the contract.
579 2013-08-13 08:18:05 <gmaxwell> I read part and told 10 other people to read it. :P
580 2013-08-13 08:18:27 <gmaxwell> reading the rest is in my queue, but its like eight things back.
581 2013-08-13 08:18:39 <warren> LIFO queue?
582 2013-08-13 08:19:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Pff, I only had 114 source code comments - spread amongst 2.3MB of diffs...
583 2013-08-13 08:19:45 <warren> petertodd: I don't want to be responsible for a LTC donation bucket for that either. Tax reasons.
584 2013-08-13 08:20:07 <petertodd> warren: as I said, your complaints were noted and filed in triplicate
585 2013-08-13 08:20:24 <petertodd> warren: huh, what's the tax implication?
586 2013-08-13 08:20:26 nomailing has joined
587 2013-08-13 08:20:44 <warren> petertodd: the unknown from lack of guidance makes it a headache that I rather avoid entirely
588 2013-08-13 08:21:12 <petertodd> warren: If it's P2SH multisig from a few different parties hopefully they can all claim arms-length
589 2013-08-13 08:21:33 <gmaxwell> ouch: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272709.msg2923046#msg2923046
590 2013-08-13 08:21:41 <gmaxwell> that was the comment I was trying _not_ to leave.
591 2013-08-13 08:21:47 <petertodd> warren: and we need to push people to actually support p2sh...
592 2013-08-13 08:21:58 <warren> petertodd: people who care about the issue will run away if you make it hard
593 2013-08-13 08:22:03 <gmaxwell> (I've PMed him and asked if he could please try to tone it down a little)
594 2013-08-13 08:22:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: agreed, it's very non-obvious if you are an academic that the thing to do is start citing IRC logs...
595 2013-08-13 08:22:53 <petertodd> warren: Heh, LTC is lucky because there are fewer wallets...
596 2013-08-13 08:23:15 <petertodd> warren: Though really, just provide both, and have the most trusted person move funds to the P2SH one as they come in.
597 2013-08-13 08:23:18 <gmaxwell> well, CDecker is active on the forum, and has been in here too
598 2013-08-13 08:23:25 <gmaxwell> actually, he's here right now.
599 2013-08-13 08:23:38 <gmaxwell> But don't confuse stupitiy with malice, etc.
600 2013-08-13 08:23:52 <petertodd> yup
601 2013-08-13 08:23:53 <warren> (I'd like to know the Bluebook citation format for "some guy on IRC" myself ...)
602 2013-08-13 08:24:16 <gmaxwell> warren: I can show you examples from other papers, I'm reviewing one now that cites this channel.
603 2013-08-13 08:24:33 <warren> hahaha
604 2013-08-13 08:24:41 <gmaxwell> (they cite the public logs of it as a webpageâ pretty reasonable)
605 2013-08-13 08:24:50 <warren> I search Google for "Bluebook citation IRC" and it finds "Internal revenue Code".
606 2013-08-13 08:24:52 <petertodd> That's a big part of why I use my full name here...
607 2013-08-13 08:25:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: is it really plagerism if nobody took the time to do formal research?
608 2013-08-13 08:26:19 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
609 2013-08-13 08:27:54 <Luke-Jr> (although I agree they should have done proper research to see the solutions were already thought of, it's something different than plagerism IMO)
610 2013-08-13 08:28:00 BTCOxygen has joined
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612 2013-08-13 08:28:00 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
613 2013-08-13 08:28:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: It's a bad pratice to have failed to do the research, at least. I don't think you or I should care about the details beyond "hey, you didn't do the research, and failed to cite the people actually implementing this". Academic notions of plagerism can be odd and probably are beyond the conception of people outside of those deep professional ratholes.
614 2013-08-13 08:29:11 qbasicer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
615 2013-08-13 08:29:14 <petertodd> Besides, no sense scaring them off...
616 2013-08-13 08:29:34 jorick has joined
617 2013-08-13 08:29:47 <warren> gmaxwell: I'd appreciation citation examples in any format.
618 2013-08-13 08:29:50 <warren> errr
619 2013-08-13 08:29:58 <warren> grammar fail means I need sleep
620 2013-08-13 08:30:14 gvdm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
621 2013-08-13 08:30:17 joesmoe- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
622 2013-08-13 08:30:37 <Luke-Jr> for me, grammar fail means I've rephrased what I was going to say :p
623 2013-08-13 08:31:38 cut has joined
624 2013-08-13 08:31:42 <Luke-Jr> except when I intentionally the verb.
625 2013-08-13 08:31:57 coeus has joined
626 2013-08-13 08:32:39 joesmoe has joined
627 2013-08-13 08:34:02 <warren> petertodd: I have more important things to do right now, but if we go public with an offer of "reproduce procedure bounty" you want to manage the donation buckets?
628 2013-08-13 08:34:30 <petertodd> heh, funny, the "satoshi patch" timestamp has timezone -0200, which is used by the Grytviken, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands and Fernando de Noronha, Brazil - population 3000 for Fernando and some scientists and a postmaster for the other... highly likely to be faked :)
629 2013-08-13 08:34:47 <petertodd> warren: Only if I'm in a 2-of-3 or something
630 2013-08-13 08:34:54 <warren> (Please no P2SH and complications in it. Just be a trusted entity to send money to.)
631 2013-08-13 08:34:59 <warren> ugh
632 2013-08-13 08:35:31 <Luke-Jr> lol
633 2013-08-13 08:35:34 <petertodd> I have zero desire to take full responsibility, not to mention the bus problem...
634 2013-08-13 08:35:39 <warren> bus?
635 2013-08-13 08:35:47 <petertodd> getting hit by one :)
636 2013-08-13 08:35:52 <warren> oh
637 2013-08-13 08:37:06 <warren> I suppose the bounty is also an experiment if this kind of incentive works at all.
638 2013-08-13 08:38:24 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: too bad though, it's not obviously wrong either, say by the tx block timestamp - maybe satoshi took his millions and bought an island?
639 2013-08-13 08:38:38 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: with promised bitcoins...
640 2013-08-13 08:38:59 <petertodd> warren: Yeah, I mean, if it was *purely* an experiment, I might consider being responsible, but these things have a way of growing.
641 2013-08-13 08:39:32 idstam has joined
642 2013-08-13 08:39:54 <Luke-Jr> it's more fun as a multisig experiment/proof-of-concept IMO :P
643 2013-08-13 08:40:17 <Luke-Jr> do we have enough people for a 12-of-20 or something?
644 2013-08-13 08:40:22 <petertodd> heh, get jgarzik in on it and it can be a demo for bitpay!
645 2013-08-13 08:40:42 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: speaking of, did you know that P2SH multisig *isn't* bound by the n-of-3 rule?
646 2013-08-13 08:40:59 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: IsStandard() only enforces up to 3 on bare checkmultisig
647 2013-08-13 08:41:20 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: though scriptSig size is a problem if you go crazy...
648 2013-08-13 08:41:34 <t7> i was gonna say, thats gonna be a huge script
649 2013-08-13 08:41:47 KIDC has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
650 2013-08-13 08:42:21 <warren> petertodd: this is a pretty narrow experiment
651 2013-08-13 08:42:44 <petertodd> warren: my desire to hold on to other's money is also narrow :)
652 2013-08-13 08:43:25 KIDC has joined
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654 2013-08-13 08:43:25 KIDC has joined
655 2013-08-13 08:43:32 <petertodd> warren: anyway, I can always be the trusted guy with the privkey to the regular donation addr, and send the funds to a p2sh between me and two others, or soemthing
656 2013-08-13 08:44:35 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: really? :o
657 2013-08-13 08:45:05 yubrew has joined
658 2013-08-13 08:45:41 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: you tell people the regulat donation addr is what you should use if you absolutely can't send to the p2sh addr because your wallet sucks
659 2013-08-13 08:45:47 thestringpuller has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
660 2013-08-13 08:46:12 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
661 2013-08-13 08:46:57 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
662 2013-08-13 08:49:34 <shesek> does blockchain.info handle p2sh addresses incorrectly?
663 2013-08-13 08:49:39 <shesek> http://blockchain.info/tx/b1801e3cff2fe001ba26453224beef2c26ede8a29b828346c893dd8c905d6098
664 2013-08-13 08:50:19 <petertodd> shesek: last I remembered their wallet still didn't, although hilariously send-shared will send to P2SH
665 2013-08-13 08:50:23 <shesek> it says the transaction is paid to 3JNaZ9A1yMpRTGyoG9Vq9MvvjKcECYbSoo, while my bitcoind says its 3FB2DitED3VT1rWjnMkd6LFpdYS36oCWcH
666 2013-08-13 08:50:43 <shesek> bitcoind decoderawtransaction `bitcoind getrawtransaction b1801e3cff2fe001ba26453224beef2c26ede8a29b828346c893dd8c905d6098` yields 3FB2DitED3VT1rWjnMkd6LFpdYS36oCWcH
667 2013-08-13 08:51:08 <petertodd> oh! someone screwed up...
668 2013-08-13 08:51:09 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I was responding to [08:40:36] <petertodd> Luke-Jr: speaking of, did you know that P2SH multisig *isn't* bound by the n-of-3 rule?
669 2013-08-13 08:51:09 <shesek> not their wallet, I want to use their API
670 2013-08-13 08:51:40 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ah, yeah, look in IsStandard() for how the n-of-3 rule is applied
671 2013-08-13 08:51:55 thestringpuller has joined
672 2013-08-13 08:52:03 <petertodd> shesek: pretty sure something is broken there...
673 2013-08-13 08:52:18 thestringpuller is now known as Guest86263
674 2013-08-13 08:52:25 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
675 2013-08-13 08:52:36 <shesek> petertodd, hmm... that sucks. I was kinda counting on their API for this project I'm working on :O
676 2013-08-13 08:54:01 <Luke-Jr> shesek: I wouldn't advise using bc.i for anything :/
677 2013-08-13 08:54:34 <shesek> Luke-Jr, is there an alternative you would recommend?
678 2013-08-13 08:54:57 <shesek> I looked into webbtc, but they don't support multisig and don't have SSL
679 2013-08-13 08:55:03 <petertodd> looks like sometimes it does work: https://blockchain.info/address/3CXBefgyf8PytgJbu1o6Vrgme2LRtAxi1e
680 2013-08-13 08:55:07 Thepok has joined
681 2013-08-13 08:55:12 <petertodd> although the firstbits is wrong
682 2013-08-13 08:55:42 <shesek> I need an api for: a. loading unspent inputs of an p2sh address and b. broadcasting raw transactions
683 2013-08-13 08:55:59 <Luke-Jr> shesek: alternative for what?
684 2013-08-13 08:56:01 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
685 2013-08-13 08:56:08 <shesek> Luke-Jr, bc.i
686 2013-08-13 08:56:20 <Luke-Jr> "loading unspent inputs of an p2sh address" ?
687 2013-08-13 08:56:29 <petertodd> shesek: BTW, please report the issue you are seeing to piuk
688 2013-08-13 08:56:39 <petertodd> shesek: that's a really serious problem
689 2013-08-13 08:56:46 <shesek> how do I contact piuk?
690 2013-08-13 08:56:58 <Luke-Jr> email
691 2013-08-13 08:57:13 <shesek> Luke-Jr, well... load a list of all the inputs the p2sh address has, that are unspent
692 2013-08-13 08:57:17 <Luke-Jr> shesek: if you are putting all the private keys of a P2SH on one system, you are Doing It Wrongâ¢
693 2013-08-13 08:57:18 yubrew has joined
694 2013-08-13 08:57:30 <shesek> Luke-Jr, who said I'm doing that?
695 2013-08-13 08:57:31 <Luke-Jr> shesek: that sounds like something for a library..
696 2013-08-13 08:58:10 <shesek> I prefer to avoid running my own bitcoin server for now and rely on 3rd party apis
697 2013-08-13 08:59:52 <shesek> petertodd, I can't seem to find an email on the website
698 2013-08-13 09:00:23 <shesek> their support page says to open an issue on github for website bugs, but I'm not quite sure on which repository
699 2013-08-13 09:00:31 <petertodd> there's a support form thing right? I've used that before and it is answered
700 2013-08-13 09:00:36 <petertodd> or just msg piuk on bitcointalk.org
701 2013-08-13 09:00:53 <petertodd> oh, actualy in this case, post to the public blockchain.info thread so others see it
702 2013-08-13 09:01:29 roconnor__ has joined
703 2013-08-13 09:01:32 <shesek> will he notice it there?
704 2013-08-13 09:01:42 <petertodd> yes
705 2013-08-13 09:02:23 agnostic98 has joined
706 2013-08-13 09:03:49 <shesek> "After registering, you will be unable to post in any section except "newbies" until you have spent some time on the forum and have published a few posts."
707 2013-08-13 09:04:10 <shesek> :-\
708 2013-08-13 09:04:18 <petertodd> msg him then
709 2013-08-13 09:04:27 roconnor_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
710 2013-08-13 09:04:44 <petertodd> you can also just post in the "whitelist requests" thread saying you need to post in that thread - explain why so you don't look like a newbie :)
711 2013-08-13 09:06:59 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
712 2013-08-13 09:07:17 <shesek> "You are not allowed to send personal messages"
713 2013-08-13 09:07:23 <shesek> I'll try to request a whitelist
714 2013-08-13 09:07:26 <petertodd> yeah
715 2013-08-13 09:07:44 <kinlo> there are some mods here that can help you :)
716 2013-08-13 09:07:50 <kinlo> gmaxwell: ping? :)
717 2013-08-13 09:08:09 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
718 2013-08-13 09:09:10 <gmaxwell> shesek: what account?
719 2013-08-13 09:09:20 <shesek> gmaxwell, shesek
720 2013-08-13 09:09:30 <gmaxwell> whitelisted.
721 2013-08-13 09:09:36 <shesek> thanks :)
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734 2013-08-13 09:25:04 <Happzz> if i import a private key to bitcoin-qt, and leave it like that for a while, will bitcoin-qt eventually move money to that address (as a change or whatever), or will it only do that for "internal" addresses
735 2013-08-13 09:25:21 <sipa> bitcoin-qt on its own never reuses an address
736 2013-08-13 09:25:32 <sipa> it will only move change to new addresses, fetched from the key pool
737 2013-08-13 09:27:24 marijnfs has joined
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743 2013-08-13 09:41:35 joesmoe has joined
744 2013-08-13 09:41:46 TD has joined
745 2013-08-13 09:41:49 <TD> good morning
746 2013-08-13 09:42:59 BTCOxygen has joined
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754 2013-08-13 10:02:08 Raccoon is now known as crystalm
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761 2013-08-13 10:19:20 <Happzz> sipa is bitcoin-qt's algorithm of what to spend when sending money documented anywhere? like, if i have 10 addresses with different sums from different times - what will bitcoin-qt spend first?
762 2013-08-13 10:22:34 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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765 2013-08-13 10:28:21 <phantomcircuit> Happzz, sure... in the code
766 2013-08-13 10:28:27 <phantomcircuit> it's partially random though so
767 2013-08-13 10:29:52 Ninsei__ has joined
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773 2013-08-13 10:33:02 <sipa> Happzz: there is no such thing as "addresses with sums"
774 2013-08-13 10:33:13 <sipa> Happzz: it's just coins; what address those are assigned to, is irrelevant
775 2013-08-13 10:33:21 <sipa> and it will first consider coins that have >6 confirmations
776 2013-08-13 10:33:25 altgribble` has joined
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779 2013-08-13 10:33:34 digitalmagus2 has joined
780 2013-08-13 10:33:36 <sipa> and if that doesn't result in a solution, it tries using newer ones
781 2013-08-13 10:33:53 davedave has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
782 2013-08-13 10:33:57 danda has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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788 2013-08-13 10:36:34 <grau> sipa: BTW should coin selection not prefer aggregation to reduce UTXO
789 2013-08-13 10:36:38 <grau> ?
790 2013-08-13 10:37:10 <gmaxwell> there are a bunch of tradeoffs here, and the code in question has not been changed in a long time.
791 2013-08-13 10:37:24 <gmaxwell> other behavior would be much better. _which_ other behavior is a complicated question.
792 2013-08-13 10:38:01 <gmaxwell> Overly agressive aggregation could destroy user privacy (uh, though if addresses are reused, the current behavior also destroys privacy)
793 2013-08-13 10:38:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: more-than-overly aggressive aggregation restores it :p
794 2013-08-13 10:38:57 <gmaxwell> aggregating a lot will result in big transactions that pay high fees, etc. so there are some tradeoffs.
795 2013-08-13 10:39:07 wemee1789 has joined
796 2013-08-13 10:39:57 <warren> petertodd: I'll find someone else to make it simple.
797 2013-08-13 10:39:59 <grau> the fees will be there sooner or later if wallet is fragmented
798 2013-08-13 10:40:29 random_cat is now known as YouWorkForARetar
799 2013-08-13 10:40:39 sserrano_ is now known as sserrano44
800 2013-08-13 10:40:40 <grau> it might even be economical to aggregate in big tx
801 2013-08-13 10:41:00 NightmareMoon is now known as Luna
802 2013-08-13 10:41:00 <Luke-Jr> grau: on the other end, if the wallet isn't fragmented enough, you also end up with fees
803 2013-08-13 10:41:21 <gmaxwell> grau: yes, you want to aggregate towards output sizes which will be useful to you in the future.
804 2013-08-13 10:41:29 YouWorkForARetar is now known as random_cat
805 2013-08-13 10:41:39 <grau> so have a logarithmic target fragmentation
806 2013-08-13 10:41:58 <grau> just like change in real coins
807 2013-08-13 10:42:31 <gmaxwell> optimal coin size selection is actually a really fun area of math, and not quite applicable to us with highly fractional coins. :P
808 2013-08-13 10:42:35 <gmaxwell> but yea.
809 2013-08-13 10:43:00 <sipa> the are just many concerns... privacy, price, network load, blockchain load, UTXO load
810 2013-08-13 10:43:14 <sipa> several of which are shared among all users of the system
811 2013-08-13 10:43:17 <gmaxwell> So now you want to agregate as much as you can, subject to not hurting privacy too much, and not producing txn that are totally too big, but only so much that you get change that follows some octave distribution.....
812 2013-08-13 10:43:44 <gmaxwell> (^ that isn't sounding much like a specification, alas)
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821 2013-08-13 10:48:48 <grau> The maximum aggregation is well defined and is optimal for the network. The no aggregation is well defined and is optimal for privacy. What about randomly choosing between the two.
822 2013-08-13 10:49:35 <gmaxwell> random sounds kind of pessimal. :P
823 2013-08-13 10:49:45 <gmaxwell> sometimes privacy is perhaps worse than never. :P
824 2013-08-13 10:50:34 <gmaxwell> some privacy properties are well defined: coins paid to the same address or which have ever been commonly used in a single transaction are not considered private relative to each other, you can aggregate all those with no great privacy consequence.
825 2013-08-13 10:50:42 <grau> then lets give the random choice a parameter, so user can tilt between privacy and cost (since no aggregation will incure high cost over time)
826 2013-08-13 10:51:29 <gmaxwell> is it the case that maximum aggregation is network optimal? thats not clear to me. one transactio which produces change which is spent exactly with a single input later is better than constantly rolling foward.
827 2013-08-13 10:51:45 <gmaxwell> oh also another point, privacy is actually very important for the network not just the user.
828 2013-08-13 10:52:42 <grau> maximum aggregation means minimum UTXO, I do not see how that would not be technically optimal for the network.
829 2013-08-13 10:52:44 <gmaxwell> If users lose their privacy: (1) their idenfiability hurts the privacy of other users, (2) incentives are created to ask businesses or miners to block certian parties (the fungibility of bitcoin is degraded). This is kind of an aside, but I wanted to point out that its not just user vs network tension here.
830 2013-08-13 10:52:58 michagogo has joined
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832 2013-08-13 10:53:58 <gmaxwell> So it actually important to provide _more_ privacy than an indifferent user may want, in order to respect the privacy of their trading partners and the fungibility of the coin overall.
833 2013-08-13 10:54:33 <grau> well we could limit the tilt between privacy and aggregation, so people do not make extreme choices.
834 2013-08-13 10:54:37 coingenuity has joined
835 2013-08-13 10:55:27 <gmaxwell> or, as I said, achieve the maximum aggregation permitted by some privacy (and transaction size) constraints.
836 2013-08-13 10:56:02 <grau> it could be simply transaction cost constraint, that people would also better understand
837 2013-08-13 10:56:11 reneg has joined
838 2013-08-13 10:56:15 <grau> aggregate until certain cost of tx not exceeded
839 2013-08-13 10:56:16 <gmaxwell> eventually spends that are larger than any privacy isolated group will have no choice but to merge them, at that point they can aggregate.
840 2013-08-13 10:56:32 <gmaxwell> well, you can't relay txn over 100kb. But sure, a lower fee constraint could work as well.
841 2013-08-13 10:57:16 <gmaxwell> grau: one problem w/ privacy is that people currently attack bitcoin user's privacy by sending them very tiny payments to old addresses in order to see how addresses link up.
842 2013-08-13 10:57:36 daybyter has joined
843 2013-08-13 10:58:25 <TD> i was talking about this with sipa at lunch the other day
844 2013-08-13 10:58:25 <grau> now I understend those gifts.
845 2013-08-13 10:58:35 <TD> ideally you want to treat outputs as if they were almost like metal coins, in various sized denominations
846 2013-08-13 10:58:39 cc_8 has joined
847 2013-08-13 10:58:54 <gmaxwell> oh, another point, making very very high value utxo is probably not a great idea. It increases the risk that a cosmic ray will make you lose a ton of coin, and it attracts journalists and theieves. :)
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849 2013-08-13 10:59:30 <TD> it's bad for a more prosaic reason - it leaks a part of your balance to whoever you spend it to
850 2013-08-13 10:59:46 <grau> So what about having target denominations, that is actually the logarithmic model
851 2013-08-13 10:59:53 <gmaxwell> TD: http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~shallit/Papers/change2.pdf I've never seen a paper on exactly our denomination problem.
852 2013-08-13 11:00:02 <gmaxwell> everything else is on integer value currencies. :P
853 2013-08-13 11:00:31 niko has joined
854 2013-08-13 11:01:05 <gmaxwell> grau: it's probably fine, .. hm. making the same mix (rather than customizing the denominations extensively) for all users might have good privacy properties.
855 2013-08-13 11:01:26 <TD> yeah
856 2013-08-13 11:01:39 <TD> i was thinking of trying to make bitcoinj aim for 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 etc sized outputs
857 2013-08-13 11:01:43 <TD> (with fractions of that as well)
858 2013-08-13 11:01:51 <TD> but it's hard.
859 2013-08-13 11:01:56 <TD> you also want to request payments in those denominations
860 2013-08-13 11:02:01 <gmaxwell> i'd previously thought that what it should do is just make change similar in size to outputs, with the rational that it hides the output value the most, and it produces outputs of the size you spend.
861 2013-08-13 11:02:15 <TD> that way you can avoid transactions ever being linked, as long as your recipient is OK with receiving a single logical payment through several independent txns
862 2013-08-13 11:02:26 <grau> With BIP32 one could even have sub-accounts for the different denominations, so also use the hierarchy to protect higher coins
863 2013-08-13 11:03:10 <grau> a subset of the wallet with small coins could be on the mobile e.g.
864 2013-08-13 11:03:10 <gmaxwell> grau: complicates enumeration, also the UI model for seperated security is hard.
865 2013-08-13 11:03:16 Sabey has joined
866 2013-08-13 11:03:24 <gmaxwell> perhaps.
867 2013-08-13 11:03:28 <michagogo> [13:59:58] <gmaxwell> everything else is on integer value currencies. :P
868 2013-08-13 11:03:28 <michagogo> Well, so are we :-P
869 2013-08-13 11:03:48 <sipa> my idea was this: look at how many digits precision the actual output has, and create change outputs with the same number of digits, but scaled differently
870 2013-08-13 11:03:52 <gmaxwell> michagogo: yea so we'll have 1 satoshi outputs, and 5, and 10, and 18, and 20...
871 2013-08-13 11:04:18 <sipa> so if your change output is 0.13, maybe aim for a 2.4 and a 0.057 change
872 2013-08-13 11:04:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: pools contantly pay with alll the digits. :(
873 2013-08-13 11:04:49 <gmaxwell> (well even generations are pretty jagged these days too)
874 2013-08-13 11:04:59 <sipa> yeah
875 2013-08-13 11:05:23 <sipa> it only really works when an entire economy runs on bitcoin i guess, and people like easy numbers
876 2013-08-13 11:05:41 <sipa> and aren't tonal
877 2013-08-13 11:06:08 <gmaxwell> personally I'd like the ability to (1) round up payments to some destinations to get whole coins without change, (2) send small amounts of change jaggies to fees, if under some threshold (like 1 cent per txn)
878 2013-08-13 11:06:39 <gmaxwell> but I think thats mostly orthorgonal, though it also addresses some of the same issues.
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882 2013-08-13 11:12:12 <TD> ye gods
883 2013-08-13 11:12:18 <TD> some users are receiving micropayments from enormous transactions
884 2013-08-13 11:12:31 <TD> i need to implement partial tx storage soon
885 2013-08-13 11:13:28 <gmaxwell> TD: thats what most of those deanonymizing dust things are.. stupid transactions with ten kazillion 0.000001 outputs or whatever
886 2013-08-13 11:13:54 <michagogo> I thought those don't get relayed anymore
887 2013-08-13 11:13:55 <michagogo> ?
888 2013-08-13 11:14:30 <TD> https://blockchain.info/tx/093435cea5d4627c3e4a154fa13153938561f80f128f5cbf51b73db63a7091df
889 2013-08-13 11:14:31 macboz has joined
890 2013-08-13 11:14:32 <TD> that's ridiculous
891 2013-08-13 11:15:22 gjs278 has joined
892 2013-08-13 11:16:24 <gmaxwell> michagogo: they're high enough to get relayed.
893 2013-08-13 11:16:39 <gmaxwell> see the ones there are the absolute minimum value outputs we'll relay now.
894 2013-08-13 11:16:53 <gmaxwell> notice that a bunch are spent.
895 2013-08-13 11:16:54 <grau> One nice property of having a BIP32 wallet that I no longer accidentally mix funds of different sources as the are all separated in sub accounts.
896 2013-08-13 11:16:55 melvster has joined
897 2013-08-13 11:16:58 <gmaxwell> 1001 users deanonymized and counting!
898 2013-08-13 11:16:59 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
899 2013-08-13 11:17:21 <sturles> Is it possible to just donate a txout as a fee without creating an unspendable transaction? I have this 0.00000006 output which is just sitting there as an annoyance. Uneconomical to spend, but a miner may want to pick it up and add it as a fee.
900 2013-08-13 11:17:58 <TD> you can spend it entirely to fees
901 2013-08-13 11:18:03 <TD> with a prunable output, no less
902 2013-08-13 11:18:23 <sturles> How?
903 2013-08-13 11:18:25 <gmaxwell> sturles: if you create a transaction and sing with ANYONE_CAN_PAY|NONE then someone could merge it.
904 2013-08-13 11:18:27 <michagogo> sturles: Well, you *could* send it along with another transaction
905 2013-08-13 11:18:46 <gmaxwell> s/sing/sign/
906 2013-08-13 11:18:47 <michagogo> Like I did the other day with e9d64a4737fa2070649e240f7c26185b0907011a20f843ae16239c6353d8ec70-000
907 2013-08-13 11:18:47 <sturles> I wish the client would do that.
908 2013-08-13 11:19:01 cc_8 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
909 2013-08-13 11:19:01 <michagogo> Er, e9d64a4737fa2070649e240f7c26185b0907011a20f843ae16239c6353d8ec70
910 2013-08-13 11:19:08 EagleTM is now known as Guest37405
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913 2013-08-13 11:19:08 <sturles> It just sits there with 20k confirmations.
914 2013-08-13 11:19:14 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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916 2013-08-13 11:19:51 <gmaxwell> sturles: listunspent, find it, create raw transaction.. pay it to whatever you want. then signrawtransaction hex "null" "null" "NONE|ANYONECANPAY"
917 2013-08-13 11:19:56 <sturles> I would be very happy if the client picked it up and spent it with some other transaction. Adding it to a larger piece of change.
918 2013-08-13 11:20:09 <gmaxwell> and then give it to petertodd because he's probably the only person that would bother actually merging it with something. :P
919 2013-08-13 11:20:19 <sturles> Hehe
920 2013-08-13 11:20:44 <sturles> Probably won't get accepted by my own client due to the small output?
921 2013-08-13 11:20:44 <gmaxwell> sturles: well it can, it just hasn't. If you use the coincontrol patches you can force it to spend it.
922 2013-08-13 11:21:19 <gmaxwell> sturles: right. because its a NONE|ANYONECANPAY anyone else could take your signature and bind it into a transaction with totally different inputs and outputs.
923 2013-08-13 11:21:19 melvster has joined
924 2013-08-13 11:21:29 <gmaxwell> NONE|ANYONECANPAY = give away my input.
925 2013-08-13 11:21:40 <sturles> I wish it would just do that without me forcing it to. Just add it to some transaction which is small enough to not require a fee anyway.
926 2013-08-13 11:21:43 <knotwork_> I pulled latest github and it is sticking on block 251021 hour after hour, log keeps saying mapOrphan overflow, removed 1 tx does that mean it is overflowed with orphans and has no room to store more?
927 2013-08-13 11:22:04 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: that message is irrelevant.
928 2013-08-13 11:22:09 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
929 2013-08-13 11:22:09 <gribble> 251940
930 2013-08-13 11:22:17 <gmaxwell> ;;tslb
931 2013-08-13 11:22:19 <gribble> Time since last block: 2 minutes and 26 seconds
932 2013-08-13 11:22:21 <knotwork_> also it says "Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
933 2013-08-13 11:22:24 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: still stuck?
934 2013-08-13 11:22:35 <knotwork_> which is why I pulled in the first place as previous version already was saying that
935 2013-08-13 11:22:51 <gmaxwell> if you're getting that warning, I think thats suggesting you've rejected the chain.
936 2013-08-13 11:22:54 <gmaxwell> What OS?
937 2013-08-13 11:23:07 <gmaxwell> and can you look in your debug log for INVALID? it may be some ways back.
938 2013-08-13 11:23:11 <knotwork_> fedora core 17 linux
939 2013-08-13 11:23:14 <gmaxwell> "INVALID"
940 2013-08-13 11:23:42 <knotwork_> grep INVALID ~/.bitcoin/debug.log comes back empty
941 2013-08-13 11:24:38 <knotwork_> -rescan is part of my startup script too so it has always done rescan any time i start it
942 2013-08-13 11:25:05 <michagogo> ...why?
943 2013-08-13 11:25:13 <sipa> -rescan is a wallet option, it has nothing to do with chain validation
944 2013-08-13 11:25:19 <knotwork_> I never know for sure why it needs starting at all
945 2013-08-13 11:25:32 <knotwork_> usually it means power corp rebooted machine by fluctuating our power
946 2013-08-13 11:25:45 <michagogo> knotwork_: Why rescan on every startup?
947 2013-08-13 11:25:47 <knotwork_> so I assume if it needs startring it likely didnt die cleanly
948 2013-08-13 11:25:48 <sipa> you shouldn't ever need -rescan really, unless you're manually messing with your wallet
949 2013-08-13 11:25:58 <sipa> -rescan doesn't help with unclean shutdown
950 2013-08-13 11:26:02 <michagogo> Should only need to do that if you're doing wallet stuff or importing a privkey
951 2013-08-13 11:26:03 <knotwork_> oh?
952 2013-08-13 11:26:23 <sipa> and that warning you get most likely means your chain database is corrupted
953 2013-08-13 11:26:28 <knotwork_> I saw too many people on forum have mysterious problems that went away once someone convinced them to rescan
954 2013-08-13 11:26:39 <sipa> people have been claiming you need rescan for ages
955 2013-08-13 11:26:44 <knotwork_> so I just put it in srtart script so i would never have to worry about it
956 2013-08-13 11:27:01 <knotwork_> is there a database fixer of some kind?
957 2013-08-13 11:27:13 <michagogo> knotwork_: For the chain database?
958 2013-08-13 11:27:15 <michagogo> -reindex
959 2013-08-13 11:27:17 <sipa> yes -reindex
960 2013-08-13 11:27:22 <sipa> but that takes a very long time
961 2013-08-13 11:27:32 <sipa> (not as much as starting over, of course)
962 2013-08-13 11:27:33 <knotwork_> so would downloading whole chain again
963 2013-08-13 11:27:42 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: sorry, I'm stupid about the case, can you grep for "Invalid"
964 2013-08-13 11:27:44 <gmaxwell> ?
965 2013-08-13 11:27:51 <sipa> grep -i
966 2013-08-13 11:27:56 <knotwork_> ok I will restart it with reindex go to sleep and see how it looks when I wake up
967 2013-08-13 11:28:08 <sipa> first do what gmaxwell asks :)
968 2013-08-13 11:28:12 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: can you please grep for Invalid first?
969 2013-08-13 11:28:22 <knotwork_> oh tons of invalid with -i
970 2013-08-13 11:28:23 <knotwork_> InvalidChainFound: current best=000000000000002102ae028653e8a6898ab0b825965f3a937b1bfce81198b1ee height=251021 log2_work=71.108179 date=2013-08-09 00:44:27
971 2013-08-13 11:28:23 <knotwork_> InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
972 2013-08-13 11:28:27 <knotwork_> is the last of many
973 2013-08-13 11:28:46 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: can you start it in less: less ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
974 2013-08-13 11:28:52 <gmaxwell> and type /Invalid
975 2013-08-13 11:29:02 <gmaxwell> and paste us the messages right before the first InvalidChainFound: ?
976 2013-08-13 11:29:36 <knotwork_> it might date back several runs of the daemon as debug.log doesnt get cleaned out
977 2013-08-13 11:29:41 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: was this node working okay before you updated git?
978 2013-08-13 11:29:51 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: thats fine, we want to see the first Invalid?
979 2013-08-13 11:29:58 <knotwork_> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=00000000000000253d9c0d5138e23c4c145cdcab8bf662f7488e56b9408f9536 height=251022 log2_work=71.10827 date=2013-08-09 00:46:30
980 2013-08-13 11:29:58 <knotwork_> InvalidChainFound: current best=000000000000002102ae028653e8a6898ab0b825965f3a937b1bfce81198b1ee height=251021 log2_work=71.108179 date=2013-08-09 00:44:27
981 2013-08-13 11:29:59 <gmaxwell> er s/\?/\./
982 2013-08-13 11:30:12 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: okay, and right _before_ that?
983 2013-08-13 11:30:32 <knotwork_> that is first one less found
984 2013-08-13 11:30:46 <gmaxwell> I know, I want to know the log messages right before the InvalidChainFound
985 2013-08-13 11:30:55 <gmaxwell> they will tell us what it thought was invalid about it.
986 2013-08-13 11:31:07 <knotwork_> not sure if it worked before i think not though as it alweays said not to use it for commerce or mining but I think today said it neded updating
987 2013-08-13 11:31:11 <knotwork_> so I updated it
988 2013-08-13 11:31:26 <knotwork_> also it did not show me a transaction I had sent to it just a day or so ago
989 2013-08-13 11:31:35 <knotwork_> so obviously wasnt getting up to date
990 2013-08-13 11:31:45 <sipa> yes yes, that's clear already :)
991 2013-08-13 11:31:57 <gmaxwell> please, the log entries before the first InvalidChainFound?
992 2013-08-13 11:31:57 <knotwork_> received block 00000000000000253d9c0d5138e23c4c145cdcab8bf662f7488e56b9408f9536
993 2013-08-13 11:31:57 <knotwork_> ERROR: ConnectBlock() : inputs missing/spent
994 2013-08-13 11:31:57 <knotwork_> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=00000000000000253d9c0d5138e23c4c145cdcab8bf662f7488e56b9408f9536 height=251022 log2_work=71.10827 date=2013-08-09 00:46:30
995 2013-08-13 11:31:57 <knotwork_> InvalidChainFound: current best=000000000000002102ae028653e8a6898ab0b825965f3a937b1bfce81198b1ee height=251021 log2_work=71.108179 date=2013-08-09 00:44:27
996 2013-08-13 11:31:58 <sipa> we want to know why it is considering the right chain invalid
997 2013-08-13 11:32:04 <sipa> eww
998 2013-08-13 11:32:32 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: can you email me and sipa this debug.log file? I'm not sure if we'll learn more from it, but it couldn't hurt to look.
999 2013-08-13 11:32:48 <knotwork_> those files never contain "sensitive" info?
1000 2013-08-13 11:33:03 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: your IP address most likely, perhaps the ID of some of your transactions.
1001 2013-08-13 11:33:16 <gmaxwell> no keys or passwords or anything like that.
1002 2013-08-13 11:33:59 <gmaxwell> if you're uncomfortable with that, I don't think its very important here, I doubt we'll learn more.
1003 2013-08-13 11:34:21 <gmaxwell> a reindex should fix it, but it may just fail again, since we don't know why it failed there.
1004 2013-08-13 11:35:58 <knotwork_> email to where
1005 2013-08-13 11:36:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: want a copy too?
1006 2013-08-13 11:36:47 <gmaxwell> greg@xiph.org
1007 2013-08-13 11:37:16 <sipa> i won't have time to investigate it in detail anyway
1008 2013-08-13 11:37:43 <gmaxwell> knotwork_: thanks for troubleshooting with us, enjoy your reindex.
1009 2013-08-13 11:37:51 <knotwork_> ok sent
1010 2013-08-13 11:38:16 <knotwork_> it should contain runs of the previous version, then one run of the latest from github
1011 2013-08-13 11:38:53 <knotwork_> previous was from github too at some random point when it was saying not to use for commerce or mining
1012 2013-08-13 11:39:39 <sipa> it always says that, except during rc/release
1013 2013-08-13 11:39:51 <knotwork_> ok
1014 2013-08-13 11:41:20 <knotwork_> ok off to sleep then hopefully it will be nicely reindexed when I wake up have fun with the debug.log.tgz
1015 2013-08-13 11:41:39 <gmaxwell> Thanks!
1016 2013-08-13 11:44:52 <ThomasV> !seen slush
1017 2013-08-13 11:44:52 <gribble> slush was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 19 weeks, 5 days, 2 hours, 46 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <slush> not really :(
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1144 2013-08-13 14:45:54 <handle> is there anyone here who has experience with building opencl kernels?
1145 2013-08-13 14:46:12 <handle> I believe Diablo-D3 built one, I'm not sure of any others
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1149 2013-08-13 14:48:00 <UukGoblin> handle, that's #bitcoin-mining, I believe
1150 2013-08-13 14:48:09 <handle> ah, thanks
1151 2013-08-13 14:48:50 <handle> that said, I'm not asking for help on how to use one, I'm asking for help on understanding the CL code, and also help for building one
1152 2013-08-13 14:49:14 <handle> the reason I don't just use an existing one is because I'm not building one for sha256
1153 2013-08-13 14:49:44 <UukGoblin> yeah, I understand, but AFAIK the core of bitcoin doesn't use any OpenCL. And some mining software devs used to hang out on #bitcoin-mining
1154 2013-08-13 14:50:05 <UukGoblin> so might have more luck there
1155 2013-08-13 14:50:08 <UukGoblin> but, I'm not an expert
1156 2013-08-13 14:50:08 <handle> no, the code does not use opencl
1157 2013-08-13 14:50:16 <sipa> it doesn't, no
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1160 2013-08-13 14:50:50 <sipa> but mining is moving away quickly from GPUs to FPGA/ASIC
1161 2013-08-13 14:51:04 <handle> I don't think there are any bitcoin devs (as in bitcoin in general, not bitcoin core) in #bitcoin-mining that wouldn't be in here
1162 2013-08-13 14:51:20 <handle> indeed, but I don't necessarily need a kernel for bitcoin or any altcoin
1163 2013-08-13 14:51:42 <UukGoblin> ask your question then ;-]
1164 2013-08-13 14:51:47 <handle> lol, I already did :P
1165 2013-08-13 14:52:08 <UukGoblin> 154550 < handle> is there anyone here who has experience with building opencl kernels?
1166 2013-08-13 14:52:09 <sipa> "does someone know about X" isn't a really useful question
1167 2013-08-13 14:52:15 <UukGoblin> I believe the answer to that is "yes"
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1169 2013-08-13 14:52:47 <sipa> i believe i've actually had an accepted pull request for poclbm, a long long time ago :)
1170 2013-08-13 14:53:05 <handle> that's basically all my question boils down to - some mentoring on opencl and help on understanding an optimized sha256 opencl kernel (will pay)
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1173 2013-08-13 14:55:21 <handle> I have a relatively basic understanding of both opencl and the workings of SHA2, so I'm not necessarily working from nothing - anyways, I'm done now and will stop spamming the channel :P
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1175 2013-08-13 14:57:02 <UukGoblin> there's probably #opencl too ;-)
1176 2013-08-13 14:57:18 <handle> ah, that's true - didn't even think of that
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1185 2013-08-13 15:11:24 <shesek> http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-block-time-halved-to-five-minutes-amid-exponential-network-growth/
1186 2013-08-13 15:11:40 <shesek> "Since network speed has increased both dramatically and persistently so far in 2013 ... the time between blocks has been reduced by 50% to the five-minute block time currently observed."
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1190 2013-08-13 15:12:09 <shesek> interesting... it seems like it doesn't adjust fast enough
1191 2013-08-13 15:12:12 <sipa> 5 minutes blocks means doubling every two weeks
1192 2013-08-13 15:12:39 <shesek> was it considered to lower the number of last blocks that it uses to calculate the average?
1193 2013-08-13 15:12:49 <sipa> actually, per week
1194 2013-08-13 15:12:57 <sipa> that would be a hard fork
1195 2013-08-13 15:13:06 <sipa> which means like planning a year ahead
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1197 2013-08-13 15:13:28 <Happzz> sipa thaks.
1198 2013-08-13 15:13:30 <Happzz> thanks even
1199 2013-08-13 15:13:40 <UukGoblin> nothing wrong with 5-minute blocks while network is growing
1200 2013-08-13 15:13:46 <sipa> indeed
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1202 2013-08-13 15:15:15 <UukGoblin> it'll calm down when asics get distributed
1203 2013-08-13 15:15:54 <shesek> ... until the next batch of asics
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1205 2013-08-13 15:17:05 <shesek> but yeah, I guess faster blocks while the network is growing isn't that bad
1206 2013-08-13 15:17:07 <petertodd> shesek: ASICs aren't going to have feature sizes less than a few atoms wide, and we're actually not that many steps away from that...
1207 2013-08-13 15:18:32 <sipa> they can scale up in die size :)
1208 2013-08-13 15:19:05 <handle> yeah, but that won't give any more power efficiency would it?
1209 2013-08-13 15:19:19 <sipa> no, but it would increase production efficiency
1210 2013-08-13 15:19:26 <handle> true
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1213 2013-08-13 15:19:57 <petertodd> sipa: Funny that you mention that. :) A lot of people don't realize that much of moore's law *has* been scaling up in die size, and the damn things are getting big enough to be a real problem.
1214 2013-08-13 15:20:18 <sipa> yes, and moore's law has nothing to do even with efficiency or performance
1215 2013-08-13 15:20:35 <sipa> it's just about the number of components on an integrated circuit for a given price
1216 2013-08-13 15:20:45 <petertodd> In theory it doesn't, in practice in does due to how ICs work.
1217 2013-08-13 15:21:27 <sipa> well, taking a single-core CPU die and turning it into a CPU die with such identical such cores is a perfect embodiment of moore's law
1218 2013-08-13 15:21:28 <handle> well yeah, it doesn't
1219 2013-08-13 15:21:47 <sipa> with _two_ such identical cores
1220 2013-08-13 15:21:49 <handle> I thought that was due to heat problems
1221 2013-08-13 15:22:09 <sipa> if done for a fixed price
1222 2013-08-13 15:22:18 <petertodd> Mainly it's been in the past few years where moore's law improvements aren't getting efficiency/performance improvements because the transistor power consumption is going up dramatically as they get smaller, mainly due to leakage. Also the fact that parallization doesn't get many gains. (but we're talking about bitcoin PoW here)
1223 2013-08-13 15:22:44 <petertodd> Used to be power consumption alwent went down when transistors were shrunk due to lower capacitive switching losses.
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1229 2013-08-13 15:28:37 <petertodd> http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-block-time-halved-to-five-minutes-amid-exponential-network-growth/ <- nice to see someone pointing out, even if only in passing, that 5min average block times from ASICs are increasing inflation. (roughly 20%/year right now w/ 5m blocks)
1230 2013-08-13 15:28:42 <petertodd> So much for deflation :P
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1232 2013-08-13 15:32:56 <TD> i've always been kind of surprised that inflation changes don't seem to have more impact on the price
1233 2013-08-13 15:33:14 <TD> though given that mt gox is limited to 10 SEPA wire transfers per day .... perhaps the fact that the price moves at all is the most surprising thing
1234 2013-08-13 15:34:55 <petertodd> Each transaction has a cost, by inflation, of at least $10 and probably a lot more in terms of coins actually in circulation. People are obviously speculating on Bitcoin, and I'll bet you a huge number of miners are effectively doing just that, absorbing all that inflation with no impact on price.
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1237 2013-08-13 15:38:39 <Anduck> gox limited to 10 sepa wires? wtf
1238 2013-08-13 15:40:09 <petertodd> Anduck: meh, they're just one exchange
1239 2013-08-13 15:40:25 <Anduck> yeah but limits like that...
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1241 2013-08-13 15:40:50 <TD> apparently when they were using the second largest bank in japan, they represented >50% of all that banks SWIFT traffic
1242 2013-08-13 15:40:55 <TD> wire tranfers, it turns out, are rare
1243 2013-08-13 15:41:14 <TD> i assume there's some story behind this, like SWIFT charging per wire or something stupid
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1245 2013-08-13 15:41:46 <petertodd> Mt. Gox, for the bitcoin ecosystem, is most important as a way of doing price discovery through day-traders - there's no reason to assume they actually have a significant amount of economically useful trade movement
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1249 2013-08-13 15:44:04 <petertodd> Heck, I know people even in just Toronto that are averaging four and five figures of person-to-person trades a month - over the whole world that adds up.
1250 2013-08-13 15:44:40 <TD> yeah, seems like there's a nice agent network in zurich now
1251 2013-08-13 15:44:43 <TD> it's not just me anymore
1252 2013-08-13 15:44:48 peetaur2 has joined
1253 2013-08-13 15:44:50 <TD> (which is good because i stopped local trading)
1254 2013-08-13 15:45:19 shesek has joined
1255 2013-08-13 15:45:36 <TD> wow. bitcoin is big in romania
1256 2013-08-13 15:45:48 <petertodd> ?
1257 2013-08-13 15:46:01 <TD> there are traders in lots of cities
1258 2013-08-13 15:46:08 <petertodd> ah, localbitcoins?
1259 2013-08-13 15:46:24 <TD> yeah
1260 2013-08-13 15:46:40 Subo1977_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1261 2013-08-13 15:46:54 <helo> oh yeah, they're really into crypto currencies over there
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1263 2013-08-13 15:47:19 <petertodd> see, what I find remarkable about that p2p trading, is of the people I know doing reasonably large volumes, only about 2/3 even use localbitcoins
1264 2013-08-13 15:48:30 <petertodd> the day any of them tell me they've been using inputs.io or some other off-chain thing is when I know our hope of easily getting good data on this stuff is gone :)
1265 2013-08-13 15:49:51 <Anduck> maybe mp got something to do with that romanian bitcoin conquering
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1267 2013-08-13 15:50:33 <michagogo> Hmm. From http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-block-time-halved-to-five-minutes-amid-exponential-network-growth/...
1268 2013-08-13 15:50:42 <michagogo> "Additionally, the confirmation time required for the same level of confidence that a transaction is not fraudulent has also been cut in half."
1269 2013-08-13 15:50:59 <michagogo> If I'm not mistaken that's not true, right?
1270 2013-08-13 15:51:14 <petertodd> depends on your attack model, often that's roughly true
1271 2013-08-13 15:51:17 <michagogo> Since it's actually the time that matters?
1272 2013-08-13 15:51:19 <michagogo> Oh?
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1274 2013-08-13 15:51:53 <petertodd> if your attacker is sized in terms of a % of total hashing power already contributing to the network, wall clock time has little to do with it
1275 2013-08-13 15:51:58 <petertodd> (IE an attacker hacking pools)
1276 2013-08-13 15:52:03 <michagogo> Ahh...
1277 2013-08-13 15:52:13 <petertodd> or just screwing with node-to-node propagation
1278 2013-08-13 15:53:08 <michagogo> So with the increase in (assuming) honest hashpower, it means that it's more likely for more blocks to be found if you're trying to come from behind?
1279 2013-08-13 15:54:09 <petertodd> pretty much, modulo inefficiencies because information propagates in non-zero time - IE orphans
1280 2013-08-13 15:54:20 <petertodd> but that's a second order effect not relevant at 5min blocks
1281 2013-08-13 15:54:25 <petertodd> (very relevatn)
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1285 2013-08-13 15:56:34 <petertodd> "Firstbits: Compromised. Thanks, Android!
1286 2013-08-13 15:56:45 <petertodd> " <- from someone who previously had a vanity addr...
1287 2013-08-13 15:56:50 <sipa> ?
1288 2013-08-13 15:57:07 <EagleTM> i assume he imported the vanity to android
1289 2013-08-13 15:57:08 <TD> well, vanity addresses ......
1290 2013-08-13 15:57:10 ticean has joined
1291 2013-08-13 15:57:15 <petertodd> just someone's tagline on troll talk - shows how little people understand of the issue
1292 2013-08-13 15:57:17 <michagogo> ;;calc [bc,blocks]/2016
1293 2013-08-13 15:57:18 <gribble> 124.987599206
1294 2013-08-13 15:57:35 jouke has quit (Changing host)
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1296 2013-08-13 15:57:38 <michagogo> ;;calc [bc,blocks]%2016
1297 2013-08-13 15:57:38 <gribble> 1991
1298 2013-08-13 15:57:48 <jouke> petertodd: why does that show how that?
1299 2013-08-13 15:57:54 <petertodd> ?
1300 2013-08-13 15:58:09 AusBitBank_ has quit (Quit: MAH EYES ARE TRYING TO ESCAPE AAARG)
1301 2013-08-13 15:58:20 <jouke> My firstbits may be comppromised as well
1302 2013-08-13 15:58:27 <michagogo> ;;bc,blocks
1303 2013-08-13 15:58:27 <gribble> 251975
1304 2013-08-13 15:58:37 <petertodd> did you generate the address on a phone?
1305 2013-08-13 15:58:43 <jouke> no
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1307 2013-08-13 15:58:55 <petertodd> then you are fine - only generation is affected
1308 2013-08-13 15:59:41 <jouke> ? I thought transaction-signing was as well?
1309 2013-08-13 15:59:56 <TD> it is, but if you had been hit, you'd have already lost the money
1310 2013-08-13 16:00:02 <michagogo> jouke: Are you using an Android-based wallet?
1311 2013-08-13 16:00:03 <petertodd> oh fuck, brain fart, disregard what I said...
1312 2013-08-13 16:00:13 <petertodd> TD is absolutely right
1313 2013-08-13 16:00:30 <jouke> TD: I haven't checked my transactions yet, so that is why I said "may be".
1314 2013-08-13 16:00:35 <TD> seems like we're reaching the tail end of the wallet rotations
1315 2013-08-13 16:00:48 <TD> jouke: most users were not affected by the tx issue
1316 2013-08-13 16:00:51 <michagogo> petertodd: Erm, what? You could be vulnerable but not yet have been discovered as such
1317 2013-08-13 16:01:11 <petertodd> michagogo: exactly, though it is something you can check for, mainly by your coins not being stolen :P
1318 2013-08-13 16:01:37 <jouke> I'd better check all my transactions just to be sure :P
1319 2013-08-13 16:01:42 <jouke> its not that hard to do
1320 2013-08-13 16:02:09 <michagogo> petertodd: You can check that your coins haven't been stolen
1321 2013-08-13 16:02:10 <petertodd> jouke: heck, any addr you want to keep, just send some coins to it and see if they get stolen
1322 2013-08-13 16:02:14 Steve132 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1323 2013-08-13 16:02:36 <michagogo> But if you generated your address with SecureRandom, it could still be possible to have your coins stolen even if they haven't been yet, no?
1324 2013-08-13 16:02:55 <jouke> michagogo: I guess so yes.
1325 2013-08-13 16:03:14 <petertodd> michagogo: Correct, because the privkey itself is guessable, which is what I was talking about when I made my first, not quite correct, statement.
1326 2013-08-13 16:03:23 <michagogo> jouke: What device and what software are you using for your wallet?
1327 2013-08-13 16:03:44 <petertodd> michagogo: As I was saying about "shows how little people understand of the issue" - includes me too :P
1328 2013-08-13 16:03:45 <jouke> But, the random number used or signing is 32 bits. How much is used for privkey generation?
1329 2013-08-13 16:03:49 <jouke> michagogo: several.
1330 2013-08-13 16:04:07 <michagogo> jouke: The same wallet copied onto multiple devices? Or multiple wallets?
1331 2013-08-13 16:04:44 <jouke> multiple wallets on multiple devices, but I imported my firstbits-address in android wallet.
1332 2013-08-13 16:04:50 <petertodd> jouke: privkey generation on android used the broken SecureRandom() too
1333 2013-08-13 16:05:46 <michagogo> Wait, just signing a transaction from an Android device using SecureRandom() can expose the privkey?
1334 2013-08-13 16:05:52 <jouke> yes
1335 2013-08-13 16:06:03 <michagogo> Okay, didn't know that.
1336 2013-08-13 16:06:28 <michagogo> (and have you sent out a transaction from your Android device with that key?)
1337 2013-08-13 16:06:33 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1338 2013-08-13 16:06:38 <petertodd> Yup, because ECC requires a random number called K for every signature, and if you reuse K for two signatures made by the same privkey you can compute the privkey based on the signatures themselves.
1339 2013-08-13 16:06:57 <jouke> 18:01 < jouke> TD: I haven't checked my transactions yet, so that is why I said "may be".
1340 2013-08-13 16:07:24 <jouke> Oh. But Yes, I have signed transactions on my android device with that private key yes.
1341 2013-08-13 16:07:42 <michagogo> petertodd: Erm, but this isn't about reuse, is it?
1342 2013-08-13 16:07:54 <michagogo> Or will SecureRandom actually return the same thing for K twice?
1343 2013-08-13 16:08:01 <petertodd> But people have been scanning the blockchain for such re-use and stealing the coins at those addresses, so if your coins haven't been stolen yet you are probably ok *if* the privkeys themselves are ok, which is the case with vanity addresses generated by non-android systems.
1344 2013-08-13 16:08:31 <petertodd> michagogo: It will, because SecureRandom returns numbers with far less entropy than claimed.
1345 2013-08-13 16:09:39 <petertodd> michagogo: Suppose it returned numbers with 32 bits of entropy - by the birthday problem you would only have to make sqrt(2^32)=65536 signatures to have a 50:50 probability of any two having the same K value.
1346 2013-08-13 16:09:40 <michagogo> So does that mean that:
1347 2013-08-13 16:09:40 <michagogo> If you've sent at least 2 transactions using Android's SecureRandom for K, your privkey may be crackable?
1348 2013-08-13 16:09:46 <petertodd> Correct
1349 2013-08-13 16:10:20 shesek has joined
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1352 2013-08-13 16:12:20 <michagogo_> And because of what privkeys are, there's no way to know if that has happened until your coins go missing...
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1357 2013-08-13 16:13:07 <jouke> michagogo: you could check your previous transaction to see if the random number have been used before.
1358 2013-08-13 16:13:16 <michagogo> Ah, right.
1359 2013-08-13 16:15:09 <michagogo> jouke: So, you'd be safe if you were to somehow check all transactions signed by your firstbits address for a duplicate K and then stop using the address with your Android device until your app is updated?
1360 2013-08-13 16:15:47 <jouke> afaik, yes
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1395 2013-08-13 16:50:04 <runeks> michagogo: I have a script that can check for duplicate r values for an address (or several addresses). So if you want me to check let me know.
1396 2013-08-13 16:50:39 <runeks> But as has been said, your address would already be empty if this is the case.
1397 2013-08-13 16:51:51 <handle> lol
1398 2013-08-13 16:52:05 <handle> oops, ignore that - wrong channel
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1418 2013-08-13 17:13:44 <michagogo> runeks: It's not me, it's jouke
1419 2013-08-13 17:14:05 <michagogo> He may have already done it, or not, I don't know
1420 2013-08-13 17:14:28 <michagogo> Also: why the hell does my connection keep dropping?
1421 2013-08-13 17:14:37 vigilyn has joined
1422 2013-08-13 17:15:21 <michagogo> It's been happening every once in a while -- all my connections just drop, but only for a split second
1423 2013-08-13 17:15:30 <michagogo> IRC, bitcoin, bitmessage, etc.
1424 2013-08-13 17:15:40 * michagogo goes to check timestamps
1425 2013-08-13 17:15:48 <sipa> that's the echelon router switching to NSA modem
1426 2013-08-13 17:15:55 <sipa> *mode
1427 2013-08-13 17:16:08 <michagogo> Uh.
1428 2013-08-13 17:16:17 <michagogo> Looks like it's happening every 30 minutes and 1 second
1429 2013-08-13 17:17:23 <sipa> dhcp lease expire?
1430 2013-08-13 17:18:39 <michagogo> 15:41, 16:11, 16:41, 17:11, 17:41, 18:11, 18:41, 19:11, 19:41, 20:11
1431 2013-08-13 17:18:53 qbasicer has joined
1432 2013-08-13 17:19:40 <michagogo> Hmm.
1433 2013-08-13 17:20:10 <michagogo> Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:11:29 PM
1434 2013-08-13 17:20:10 <michagogo> Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Tuesday, August 13, 2013 9:11:29 PM
1435 2013-08-13 17:20:25 <michagogo> Huh, maybe it's trying to renew it every 30 mins?
1436 2013-08-13 17:20:36 <handle> that's an oddly short DHCP lease
1437 2013-08-13 17:20:42 <michagogo> Hmm. Now that I think about it...
1438 2013-08-13 17:20:49 <jouke> runeks, michagogo I already did it myself. I'm in the clear :)
1439 2013-08-13 17:21:31 <michagogo> Earlier today, perhaps around that time (15ish) I set up a DHCP reservation for myself and forwarded port 8333
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1448 2013-08-13 17:30:44 <JyZyXEL> http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-block-time-halved-to-five-minutes-amid-exponential-network-growth/ "A common misconception is that transactional confidence is based on time â this is only partly true. The probability of a double-spend is reduced with each subsequent block confirmation, regardless of time between blocks, so long as the time distance between those blocks is sufficiently greater than
1449 2013-08-13 17:30:46 <JyZyXEL> the time required to propagate newly discovered blocks to the network."
1450 2013-08-13 17:30:48 <JyZyXEL> so thats why the Gambler's Ruin problem probability values calculated in the Chapter 11 of the bitcoin whitepaper don't mention anything about blocktime is because it doesn't matter.
1451 2013-08-13 17:31:03 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1452 2013-08-13 17:31:48 <JyZyXEL> makes me wonder if this guy: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232297.msg2446759#msg2446759 has fallen to the commonly made misconception when he says: "A confirmation is not a guarantee of authenticity. Decreasing conf time proportionally decreases the "value" of the confirmation. Decreasing confirmation times would be accounted for in services requiring confirmations, where required confirmation
1453 2013-08-13 17:31:49 <JyZyXEL> times would be increased to completely negate the decreased conf times. (for example, Gox requires 6 confs -- reducing conf time to 5m would result in Gox requiring 12 confs)"
1454 2013-08-13 17:33:11 cc_8 has quit ()
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1457 2013-08-13 17:34:52 <sipa> JyZyXEL: it depends on the type of attack
1458 2013-08-13 17:35:18 <sipa> for some scenarios, the number of confirmations is more important than the amount of work corresponding to them
1459 2013-08-13 17:35:23 <sipa> for others it's the opposite
1460 2013-08-13 17:35:51 <sipa> mostly it depends on whether you assume the attacker has to build hashing infrastructure, or whether he can just pay to rent existing one for a short time
1461 2013-08-13 17:38:14 <petertodd> sipa: or steal hashing power, or knock out hashing power in operation through a DoS attack
1462 2013-08-13 17:38:34 Coincide_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1464 2013-08-13 17:39:06 <JyZyXEL> damn, there are so many attack vectors :p
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1467 2013-08-13 17:39:20 michagogo_ is now known as michagogo
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1469 2013-08-13 17:39:43 <JyZyXEL> most of them which made hard and expensive by the size of the network
1470 2013-08-13 17:40:14 <petertodd> but not all
1471 2013-08-13 17:41:05 <sipa> i'm still amazed by the fact that there are now devices on the market that are have a hash rate corresponding to like 1/3 of what the "mystery miner" in may 2011 was able to amass...
1472 2013-08-13 17:41:06 <petertodd> hashing power is dangerously consolidated in just a few hands; the size of the network means nothing in that case
1473 2013-08-13 17:41:39 <petertodd> sipa: you'll be even more amazed by my evidence that he was a time traveller
1474 2013-08-13 17:42:13 <sipa> eh
1475 2013-08-13 17:42:22 <petertodd> heh
1476 2013-08-13 17:42:30 <handle> what's the evidence?
1477 2013-08-13 17:42:52 <petertodd> it's a good example though of the capital cost vs. decentralization tradeoff between PoW's that are and are not ASIC hard
1478 2013-08-13 17:43:24 ltcbtc has quit (Quit: latez)
1479 2013-08-13 17:45:35 <michagogo> sipa: mystery miner in may 2011?
1480 2013-08-13 17:46:20 <michagogo> ;;google bitcoin may 2011 mystery miner
1481 2013-08-13 17:46:21 <gribble> Four years and $100 million later, Bitcoin's mysterious creator ...: <http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/6/4295028/report-satoshi-nakamoto>; Gold in them bits: Inside the world's most mysterious Bitcoin mining ...: <http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/06/gold-in-them-bits-inside-the-worlds-most-mysterious-bitcoin-mining-company/>; How to get started using your GPU to mine for Bitcoins (1 more message)
1482 2013-08-13 17:46:28 <michagogo> ;;more
1483 2013-08-13 17:46:28 <gribble> on Windows: <http://www.newslobster.com/random/how-to-get-started-using-your-gpu-to-mine-for-bitcoins-on-windows>
1484 2013-08-13 17:46:31 <michagogo> Okay, no.
1485 2013-08-13 17:46:41 <michagogo> ;;google bitcoin "may 2011" "mystery miner"
1486 2013-08-13 17:46:41 <gribble> Four years and $100 million later, Bitcoin's mysterious creator ...: <http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/6/4295028/report-satoshi-nakamoto>; Gold in them bits: Inside the world's most mysterious Bitcoin mining ...: <http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/06/gold-in-them-bits-inside-the-worlds-most-mysterious-bitcoin-mining-company/>; How to get started using your GPU to mine for Bitcoins (1 more message)
1487 2013-08-13 17:46:50 <michagogo> ...
1488 2013-08-13 17:47:03 <michagogo> Does gribble not pass punctuation on to google?
1489 2013-08-13 17:47:12 <handle> not quotes
1490 2013-08-13 17:47:24 <sipa> michagogo: around that time, there were a few hashrate spikes
1491 2013-08-13 17:47:26 <handle> ;;echo hello "hello" "hi"
1492 2013-08-13 17:47:26 <gribble> hello hello hi
1493 2013-08-13 17:47:33 <sipa> michagogo: iirc the hashrate doubled from one day to another
1494 2013-08-13 17:47:34 <handle> ;;echo hello "hello" \"hi\"
1495 2013-08-13 17:47:34 <gribble> hello hello \"hi\"
1496 2013-08-13 17:47:38 <handle> hmm
1497 2013-08-13 17:47:40 <sipa> and then dropped again a few days later
1498 2013-08-13 17:47:42 <handle> ;;echo hello "hello" '"hi"'
1499 2013-08-13 17:47:42 <gribble> hello hello '"hi"'
1500 2013-08-13 17:47:54 <handle> michagogo: lol, I guess you're on your own
1501 2013-08-13 17:48:03 <michagogo> ;;echo 'test'
1502 2013-08-13 17:48:03 <gribble> 'test'
1503 2013-08-13 17:48:13 <michagogo> ;;google bitcoin 'may 2011' 'mystery miner'
1504 2013-08-13 17:48:14 <gribble> Four years and $100 million later, Bitcoin's mysterious creator ...: <http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/6/4295028/report-satoshi-nakamoto>; Gold in them bits: Inside the world's most mysterious Bitcoin mining ...: <http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/06/gold-in-them-bits-inside-the-worlds-most-mysterious-bitcoin-mining-company/>; How to get started using your GPU to mine for Bitcoins (1 more message)
1505 2013-08-13 17:48:15 PrimeStunna has joined
1506 2013-08-13 17:48:15 <sipa> and all those blocks were apparently produced by a single miner, with a single IP, constructing blocks that had a weird coinbase
1507 2013-08-13 17:48:20 <michagogo> ...no.
1508 2013-08-13 17:48:27 <michagogo> ;;echo bitcoin 'may 2011' 'mystery miner'
1509 2013-08-13 17:48:27 <gribble> bitcoin 'may 2011' 'mystery miner'
1510 2013-08-13 17:48:29 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1511 2013-08-13 17:48:34 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-ever.png
1512 2013-08-13 17:48:49 <sipa> it was march 2011 aparently
1513 2013-08-13 17:48:56 Krellan_ has joined
1514 2013-08-13 17:49:05 <michagogo> Looks like a very small spi-
1515 2013-08-13 17:49:09 <michagogo> oh, it's exponential
1516 2013-08-13 17:49:14 <sipa> yes :D
1517 2013-08-13 17:49:16 * michagogo isn't good at reading those
1518 2013-08-13 17:49:33 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-ever.png
1519 2013-08-13 17:49:39 <sipa> ^- there you can't even see it anymore
1520 2013-08-13 17:49:56 <michagogo> lol
1521 2013-08-13 17:50:06 <michagogo> Wow, that's kinda crazy to look at
1522 2013-08-13 17:51:00 <petertodd> Jul 2010 was when GPU mining came into being right?
1523 2013-08-13 17:51:14 <petertodd> or was that slashdot?
1524 2013-08-13 17:51:23 Coincide_ has joined
1525 2013-08-13 17:51:30 <sipa> that was slashdot
1526 2013-08-13 17:51:48 <sipa> GPU mining was like october/november 2011
1527 2013-08-13 17:52:27 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1528 2013-08-13 17:52:44 <petertodd> you mean 2010? oct/nov 2011 was a hash rate slump post crash
1529 2013-08-13 17:53:23 <sipa> eh, 2010, yes
1530 2013-08-13 17:53:40 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1531 2013-08-13 17:54:02 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/History
1532 2013-08-13 17:54:06 <sipa> October 01 First public OpenCL miner released
1533 2013-08-13 17:54:31 <petertodd> huh, interesting, I first heard about bitcoin just prior to the first diff increase - I wonder what exactly triggered that early wave of people learning about it?
1534 2013-08-13 17:54:34 <petertodd> bbl
1535 2013-08-13 17:54:54 <sipa> petertodd: where did you hear about it?
1536 2013-08-13 17:56:09 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
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1542 2013-08-13 17:58:38 michagogo_ is now known as michagogo
1543 2013-08-13 17:58:47 <michagogo> ...and there it goes again
1544 2013-08-13 17:58:58 <michagogo> half an hour after I last connected
1545 2013-08-13 18:00:02 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1546 2013-08-13 18:00:18 reneg has joined
1547 2013-08-13 18:01:06 sserrano44 has joined
1548 2013-08-13 18:01:14 <michagogo> I removed the reservation and got a different address, I'll see if this happens again
1549 2013-08-13 18:02:17 marcusw has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1550 2013-08-13 18:06:46 Tom_Soft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1551 2013-08-13 18:07:27 swulf-- has joined
1552 2013-08-13 18:07:32 <swulf--> received block 000000000000002b22bc8f0022bddb63ce4fb7bd04ca4111447d56c13e99246c
1553 2013-08-13 18:07:32 <swulf--> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=000000000000002b22bc8f0022bddb63ce4fb7bd04ca4111447d56c13e99246c height=251993 log2_work=71.194063 date=2013-08-13 17:56:03
1554 2013-08-13 18:07:32 <swulf--> InvalidChainFound: current best=000000000000006286bedd0854867d34898e29629cfaeea4435fb9d89f3e4c11 height=251967 log2_work=71.191831 date=2013-08-13 14:22:00
1555 2013-08-13 18:07:32 <swulf--> InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
1556 2013-08-13 18:07:45 <swulf--> what's the deal?
1557 2013-08-13 18:08:21 Neozonz has joined
1558 2013-08-13 18:08:50 <michagogo> swulf--: What's your client showing as the current chain length?
1559 2013-08-13 18:09:10 <swulf--> "blocks" : 251967,
1560 2013-08-13 18:09:21 <michagogo> hmm
1561 2013-08-13 18:09:27 <michagogo> try restarting the client
1562 2013-08-13 18:09:33 <swulf--> it was just restarted
1563 2013-08-13 18:09:53 <michagogo> What version?
1564 2013-08-13 18:09:55 <michagogo> 0.8.3 release?
1565 2013-08-13 18:10:02 h2odysee has joined
1566 2013-08-13 18:10:03 <sipa> what OS/hardware?
1567 2013-08-13 18:10:03 <swulf--> "version" : 80300,
1568 2013-08-13 18:10:09 <sipa> looks like a corruption blockchain database
1569 2013-08-13 18:10:17 <swulf--> sipa: same as last time - the Atom + aes-loop disk
1570 2013-08-13 18:11:14 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1571 2013-08-13 18:11:40 <swulf--> looks like I have to reindex *again* ?
1572 2013-08-13 18:11:55 wamatt has joined
1573 2013-08-13 18:11:59 <michagogo> worth a try
1574 2013-08-13 18:12:03 <swulf--> arg
1575 2013-08-13 18:12:21 <sipa> :(
1576 2013-08-13 18:12:21 <swulf--> spending hours/days reindexing is unacceptable
1577 2013-08-13 18:12:21 <kjj> 50810339.04827648
1578 2013-08-13 18:12:28 <sipa> swulf--: it is
1579 2013-08-13 18:12:52 <sipa> but it's so strange that some people seem to have this problem all the time
1580 2013-08-13 18:12:59 <sipa> and others are completely unable to reproduce it
1581 2013-08-13 18:13:02 <swulf--> if LevelDB is incompatible with encrypted filesystems, either the filesystem or leveldb is to blame, either way, this is something that is harming bitcoin
1582 2013-08-13 18:13:12 <sipa> it shouldn't be
1583 2013-08-13 18:13:14 wamatt has quit (Client Quit)
1584 2013-08-13 18:13:27 <swulf--> i agree - it shoudl be completely transparent
1585 2013-08-13 18:13:29 <sipa> there shouldn't even be a way through which leveldb could detect it's on an encrypted filesystem
1586 2013-08-13 18:13:32 Darwerft has quit (Quit: Soon to be back)
1587 2013-08-13 18:14:09 wamatt has joined
1588 2013-08-13 18:14:10 <swulf--> exactly
1589 2013-08-13 18:14:37 bmcgee has joined
1590 2013-08-13 18:15:36 <sipa> i also don't think it is - i assume it's another problem with leveldb, which is perhaps exposed more easily on encrypted filesystems
1591 2013-08-13 18:15:53 <sipa> because how timing/writes/mmap/... work, maybe
1592 2013-08-13 18:16:27 <swulf--> it's just..
1593 2013-08-13 18:16:29 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1594 2013-08-13 18:16:32 <swulf--> sad, really
1595 2013-08-13 18:16:48 wamatt has quit (Client Quit)
1596 2013-08-13 18:17:27 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1597 2013-08-13 18:17:55 teste has joined
1598 2013-08-13 18:18:24 <michagogo> I thought difficulty could only change up to 25% at once?
1599 2013-08-13 18:18:43 <michagogo> Unless I did the math wrong, it just went up by 35.88%
1600 2013-08-13 18:18:55 cads has joined
1601 2013-08-13 18:19:11 <sipa> up to 400%
1602 2013-08-13 18:19:19 <sipa> so it can go *4 or /4
1603 2013-08-13 18:19:20 <michagogo> If it had gone up 25% it should have been 46,740,957.6705932
1604 2013-08-13 18:19:22 <michagogo> Ohhhh
1605 2013-08-13 18:19:42 <michagogo> Okay, I completely misunderstood that
1606 2013-08-13 18:19:51 * sipa forces update of bitcoin.sipa.be
1607 2013-08-13 18:21:12 <michagogo> So tell me if I'm getting this right: now block times will be just a little bit under 10 minutes, since the hashpower spike didn't start right when difficulty adjusted last, and in a little under 2 weeks (if hashpower were to stay the same) the difficulty would adjust up a little bit more to hit the 10 minute mark?
1608 2013-08-13 18:21:17 <EagleTM> wow looks like the FED rate for printing USD
1609 2013-08-13 18:21:22 reneg has joined
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1611 2013-08-13 18:24:13 <sipa> so the hashrate looks close to 60M worth of difficulty, but the actual difficulty is only 50M
1612 2013-08-13 18:24:35 <sipa> so i expect average block times of around 50/60*10 = 8.3 minutes
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1614 2013-08-13 18:26:32 marcusw has joined
1615 2013-08-13 18:27:54 <marcusw> is there a script/web utility to check addrs for android transaction IV collisions?
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1625 2013-08-13 18:37:20 <phantomcircuit> marcusw, assume all tx generated on android are insecure
1626 2013-08-13 18:38:10 i2pRelay has quit (Quit: kytv)
1627 2013-08-13 18:38:13 shesek has joined
1628 2013-08-13 18:38:16 <marcusw> phantomcircuit: the transactions are fine
1629 2013-08-13 18:38:43 <marcusw> it's the wallets people should be worried about
1630 2013-08-13 18:38:57 <phantomcircuit> uh no
1631 2013-08-13 18:39:06 <phantomcircuit> well yes
1632 2013-08-13 18:39:08 <phantomcircuit> but also
1633 2013-08-13 18:39:10 <marcusw> but it looks like, if one were to make 2^16 transactions, one would have a 50% chance of an IV collision
1634 2013-08-13 18:39:17 <phantomcircuit> need new private keys
1635 2013-08-13 18:39:30 <marcusw> I'd be surprised if anyone actually hit those odds
1636 2013-08-13 18:39:32 i2pRelay has joined
1637 2013-08-13 18:39:39 <phantomcircuit> and assume all of the tx have weak signatures
1638 2013-08-13 18:40:20 <marcusw> what's the implication of that?
1639 2013-08-13 18:40:54 <phantomcircuit> well it seems like some people are thinking only direct collisions are a problem
1640 2013-08-13 18:40:56 owowo has joined
1641 2013-08-13 18:40:57 <phantomcircuit> which isn't right
1642 2013-08-13 18:41:27 <marcusw> oh, all right...how close does it have to be to worry about?
1643 2013-08-13 18:41:36 c0rw1n has joined
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1645 2013-08-13 18:41:50 <phantomcircuit> marcusw, assume that any signatures generated on android are weak
1646 2013-08-13 18:41:54 <phantomcircuit> (because they are)
1647 2013-08-13 18:42:07 <marcusw> also, it seems that as long as you've only done one transaction, your privkeys should be fine
1648 2013-08-13 18:42:08 <phantomcircuit> without a direct collision attacks are more expensive
1649 2013-08-13 18:42:11 <phantomcircuit> but still possible
1650 2013-08-13 18:42:34 <marcusw> are the privkeys also only 32-bit entropy?
1651 2013-08-13 18:42:44 <phantomcircuit> apparently the 256 bit value is reduces to 64 bits
1652 2013-08-13 18:42:50 <phantomcircuit> but possibly more so
1653 2013-08-13 18:42:50 c0rw1n has joined
1654 2013-08-13 18:43:08 <phantomcircuit> in which case i would assume the signatures provide <64 bits of security
1655 2013-08-13 18:43:28 <marcusw> someone said the securerandom numbers only had 32 bits entropy
1656 2013-08-13 18:43:44 <marcusw> or at least, the way they were used in sig generation
1657 2013-08-13 18:43:49 <phantomcircuit> iirc the last thing i saw said 64 but that wouldn't surprise me
1658 2013-08-13 18:45:42 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1662 2013-08-13 18:47:49 <knotwork_> reindex worked, thanks for the tip. :)
1663 2013-08-13 18:49:41 <helo> what's a typical utxo set size for blocks of late?
1664 2013-08-13 18:50:26 FabianB_ has joined
1665 2013-08-13 18:50:54 bmcgee has joined
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1670 2013-08-13 18:52:35 <sipa> helo: not sure what you mean; the UTXO set is global, not per block
1671 2013-08-13 18:53:36 <petertodd> sipa: I don't know where I heard of bitcoin actually, all I know is I have an email from dec 2009 telling a friend about satoshi's paper
1672 2013-08-13 18:53:39 <helo> right... just wondering how big the utxo set is
1673 2013-08-13 18:54:08 <sipa> $ ./bitcoind gettxoutsetinfo
1674 2013-08-13 18:54:21 <sipa> "bytes_serialized" : 236086878,
1675 2013-08-13 18:55:44 <phantomcircuit> helo, a bitcoin full node is essentially a streaming state machine
1676 2013-08-13 18:55:48 <phantomcircuit> the utxo is the state
1677 2013-08-13 18:55:53 <phantomcircuit> if that helps at all
1678 2013-08-13 18:56:44 bmcgee has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1679 2013-08-13 18:56:44 EagleTM has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1680 2013-08-13 18:57:06 <helo> thanks
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1694 2013-08-13 19:16:19 <runeks> bitcoind crashed on my Raspberry Pi with this error:
1695 2013-08-13 19:16:21 <runeks> bitcoind: table/table_builder.cc:97: void leveldb::TableBuilder::Add(const leveldb::Slice&, const leveldb::Slice&): Assertion `r->options.comparator->Compare(key, Slice(r->last_key)) > 0' failed.
1696 2013-08-13 19:16:29 <runeks> Now I get the same error every time I try to start it again.
1697 2013-08-13 19:16:40 <runeks> It had been running for about two months without problems before that.
1698 2013-08-13 19:17:18 GordonG3kko has joined
1699 2013-08-13 19:17:40 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1700 2013-08-13 19:18:10 ThomasV has joined
1701 2013-08-13 19:20:49 stalled has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1702 2013-08-13 19:21:17 <swulf--> is the production of addresses in 'getnewaddress' somewhat predictable?
1703 2013-08-13 19:21:29 <runeks> Nothing special appears in debug.log before the crash.
1704 2013-08-13 19:21:54 <swulf--> i.e., if i saved wallet.dat at time A, produced addresses until time B, then rolled back (and restarted the client) to A, would the same exact addresses be generated?
1705 2013-08-13 19:22:10 <runeks> swulf--: No it's random.
1706 2013-08-13 19:22:11 CheckDavid has joined
1707 2013-08-13 19:22:17 <swulf--> um
1708 2013-08-13 19:22:24 <swulf--> i think i have proof that it isn't
1709 2013-08-13 19:22:26 <sipa> they are pulled for the key pool
1710 2013-08-13 19:22:31 <kjj> keypool
1711 2013-08-13 19:22:33 <swulf--> oh
1712 2013-08-13 19:22:33 <sipa> which by default contains 100 addresses
1713 2013-08-13 19:22:35 <swulf--> keypool
1714 2013-08-13 19:22:45 <runeks> Oh, right. Only actually new addresses are random.
1715 2013-08-13 19:22:48 <swulf--> some index into the keypool exists. where is that?
1716 2013-08-13 19:22:57 <sipa> no index
1717 2013-08-13 19:23:03 <sipa> the keypool is just a list of 100 keys
1718 2013-08-13 19:23:09 <swulf--> if state A was 10 keys into the keypool...
1719 2013-08-13 19:23:13 <runeks> It seems the assertion fails after opening the chainstate
1720 2013-08-13 19:23:15 <runeks> 2013-08-13 19:12:02 Opening LevelDB in /home/pi/.bitcoin/chainstate
1721 2013-08-13 19:23:22 <runeks> is the last line in debug.log when it crashes
1722 2013-08-13 19:23:26 <runeks> or aborts
1723 2013-08-13 19:23:39 <sipa> database corruption... :S
1724 2013-08-13 19:23:47 <swulf--> yet again
1725 2013-08-13 19:27:21 robocoin has joined
1726 2013-08-13 19:28:23 <runeks> sipa: :( So would you say the most likely cause is a bug in bitcoin/leveldb or a hardware issue on my Raspberry Pi?
1727 2013-08-13 19:28:47 <runeks> I'm storing the datadir on a USB stick. I think I'll run badblocks on it.
1728 2013-08-13 19:28:50 <swulf--> its happening on platforms other than rpi
1729 2013-08-13 19:29:05 <runeks> swulf--: Interesting. Often or rarely?
1730 2013-08-13 19:29:11 <sipa> it's mostly happening on *machines* other than rpi
1731 2013-08-13 19:29:11 TomMIRC has joined
1732 2013-08-13 19:29:14 <swulf--> for me, often
1733 2013-08-13 19:29:16 stalled has joined
1734 2013-08-13 19:29:21 <runeks> I found one post on bct where the cause was RAM errors.
1735 2013-08-13 19:29:23 <swulf--> about once every 3-4 weeks
1736 2013-08-13 19:29:30 <sipa> i have never ever in my life been able to reproduce any leveldb error at all
1737 2013-08-13 19:29:33 <runeks> swulf--: What hardware do you run it on?
1738 2013-08-13 19:29:39 <swulf--> intel atom
1739 2013-08-13 19:29:39 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1740 2013-08-13 19:29:40 <sipa> except by randomly overwriting data in the database
1741 2013-08-13 19:29:45 <sipa> with random bytes
1742 2013-08-13 19:30:00 toffoo has quit ()
1743 2013-08-13 19:30:04 <swulf--> maybe i can do a daily checksum on each file in the chainstate
1744 2013-08-13 19:30:14 <sipa> no file will change
1745 2013-08-13 19:30:22 <swulf--> how does that make any sense?
1746 2013-08-13 19:30:24 <sipa> all leveldb files (except the log) are immutable
1747 2013-08-13 19:30:27 <Diablo-D3> http://research.swtch.com/macpprof
1748 2013-08-13 19:30:30 <Diablo-D3> this looks interesting
1749 2013-08-13 19:30:32 <sipa> they're written once
1750 2013-08-13 19:30:44 <marcusw> is there any way to get info on the state of the key pool?
1751 2013-08-13 19:30:49 <sipa> marcusw: getinfo
1752 2013-08-13 19:31:23 <marcusw> figures...
1753 2013-08-13 19:31:50 <runeks> swulf--: What storage medium for the datadir?
1754 2013-08-13 19:32:02 ThomasV_ has joined
1755 2013-08-13 19:32:06 <runeks> Looks like my USB stick is dead. Just starts blinking when I plug it in without registering.
1756 2013-08-13 19:32:20 <sipa> swulf--: most likely, any error occuring happens when writing a new file
1757 2013-08-13 19:33:08 agnostic98 has joined
1758 2013-08-13 19:33:36 <runeks> Thank god I made a backup like a month ago. Re-indexing takes like a week on a Pi.
1759 2013-08-13 19:33:56 bbrian has joined
1760 2013-08-13 19:34:07 <sipa> haha
1761 2013-08-13 19:34:26 * michagogo shudders
1762 2013-08-13 19:34:48 <swulf--> sipa: hmm. that sucks
1763 2013-08-13 19:34:59 RoboTeddy has joined
1764 2013-08-13 19:35:12 <runeks> I read it was slow before buying it, but now I realize it really IS slow. *Slow* slow.
1765 2013-08-13 19:36:26 <runeks> Yeah, looks like the USB stick is dead. Lesson learned.
1766 2013-08-13 19:36:27 <runeks> sde: unknown partition table
1767 2013-08-13 19:36:49 davedave has joined
1768 2013-08-13 19:37:01 digitalmagus has joined
1769 2013-08-13 19:37:21 <sipa> sucks
1770 2013-08-13 19:37:41 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1771 2013-08-13 19:37:54 <runeks> Yeah especially since it was the only external storage medium I could get to work with the Pi.
1772 2013-08-13 19:38:59 <marcusw> dd if=/dev/sde bs=512 count=1 | file -
1773 2013-08-13 19:39:43 <swulf--> runeks: are you using listtransactions api ?
1774 2013-08-13 19:40:15 <runeks> marcusw: /dev/stdin: ASCII text, with very long lines, with no line terminators
1775 2013-08-13 19:40:35 <runeks> swulf--: No I'm not.
1776 2013-08-13 19:40:46 <swulf--> are you using any bitcoind json/rpc api?
1777 2013-08-13 19:40:46 <sipa> swulf--: why is that relevant?
1778 2013-08-13 19:41:03 <runeks> marcusw: It's just a bunch of "f"'s
1779 2013-08-13 19:41:12 <swulf--> sipa: curious to know if there's a lock/race condition causing a problem?
1780 2013-08-13 19:41:22 <sipa> listtransactions is read only...
1781 2013-08-13 19:41:42 <swulf--> sipa: for past 3 weeks my server has been fine; today, I did a software update on some code that only ever executes bitcoind json calls, and then there's a problem
1782 2013-08-13 19:41:42 <sipa> could still lead to a deadlock, but not to corrupted data
1783 2013-08-13 19:41:56 <swulf--> it just seems like odd timing, so i'm just reaching..
1784 2013-08-13 19:42:00 <sipa> ok
1785 2013-08-13 19:42:05 <sipa> seems coincidence to me
1786 2013-08-13 19:42:09 <sipa> but who knows
1787 2013-08-13 19:42:12 <swulf--> most likely
1788 2013-08-13 19:42:22 <sipa> as long as we have no clue what causes these corruptions, it's just a guess
1789 2013-08-13 19:42:46 <swulf--> yeah
1790 2013-08-13 19:44:36 stevedekorte has joined
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1792 2013-08-13 19:47:15 bmcgee has joined
1793 2013-08-13 19:49:57 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1794 2013-08-13 19:51:09 bmcgee has quit (Client Quit)
1795 2013-08-13 19:52:37 <marcusw> runeks: lol, it's fried
1796 2013-08-13 19:52:44 <marcusw> check dmesg
1797 2013-08-13 19:53:08 <runeks> marcusw: The only thing dmesg says is "unknown partition table"
1798 2013-08-13 19:53:13 <runeks> I'm doing a badblocks scan on it now.
1799 2013-08-13 19:53:30 <marcusw> there should be a fuckton of io errors
1800 2013-08-13 19:53:39 <runeks> I opened the device file in wxHexEditor and the first thousands of sectors were just ASCII "f"'s (0x66 bytes)
1801 2013-08-13 19:53:48 <runeks> marcusw: That's what surprised me. There aren't.
1802 2013-08-13 19:54:42 AndChat has joined
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1806 2013-08-13 19:55:38 <runeks> There is this though:
1807 2013-08-13 19:55:39 <runeks> [31878.008953] sd 6:0:0:0: [sde] Asking for cache data failed
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1810 2013-08-13 19:56:39 <marcusw> devil possessed flash drive 66666666666666666666
1811 2013-08-13 19:57:27 <runeks> I know NAND flash can fail in strange ways. So maybe the wrong values are read but no errors are reported.
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1818 2013-08-13 20:01:06 <runeks> The controller basically just reads a voltage for the NAND cell, and interprets its value from that. If the controller isn't that advanced (which it probably isn't for a USB stick) it could just return invalid data. But badblocks should catch that.
1819 2013-08-13 20:04:03 agnostic98 has joined
1820 2013-08-13 20:04:29 <michagogo> What causes bitcoin-qt to get stuck a block behind when a new block is mined?
1821 2013-08-13 20:04:34 valparaiso_ has joined
1822 2013-08-13 20:04:38 btcbtc has joined
1823 2013-08-13 20:04:46 <michagogo> Trying to fetch it from a bad peer?
1824 2013-08-13 20:06:29 <sipa> it can get confused in a number of ways
1825 2013-08-13 20:06:39 <sipa> i'm working on rewriting that part
1826 2013-08-13 20:07:34 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1827 2013-08-13 20:07:34 valparaiso_ is now known as valparaiso
1828 2013-08-13 20:07:53 <michagogo> There isn't a way to tell it to reset the sync and try to get it from elsewhere, is there?
1829 2013-08-13 20:08:22 <sipa> exit and restart :)
1830 2013-08-13 20:08:46 <sipa> the problem is that it really has no concept of 'fetching from somewhere', it just asks whatever is announced by peers
1831 2013-08-13 20:08:52 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1832 2013-08-13 20:08:53 <sipa> it's not really tracked
1833 2013-08-13 20:08:53 teste has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1834 2013-08-13 20:08:54 <marcusw> >have you tried turning it off and then on again?
1835 2013-08-13 20:09:09 <sipa> 0118999881999119725 3
1836 2013-08-13 20:09:18 <marcusw> it's funny because usually, that DOESN'T fix bitcoind
1837 2013-08-13 20:09:29 <marcusw> and the solution is to let it run and sort itself out
1838 2013-08-13 20:09:30 <sipa> in case you have a stuck download, it does
1839 2013-08-13 20:09:31 santoscork has quit (Quit: Hibernation Time â¦)
1840 2013-08-13 20:09:39 <sipa> eventually it continues anyway
1841 2013-08-13 20:09:43 <sipa> but it may take a while
1842 2013-08-13 20:09:51 <michagogo> How long is "a while"?
1843 2013-08-13 20:09:57 <sipa> until a new block is announced
1844 2013-08-13 20:10:03 <sipa> but it can get stuck again
1845 2013-08-13 20:10:04 <michagogo> Hmm. Would asking someone else for the raw block and giving that to submitblock work?
1846 2013-08-13 20:10:16 <sipa> just download the torrent then
1847 2013-08-13 20:10:20 <sipa> and import it
1848 2013-08-13 20:10:25 <michagogo> (also, will bitcoin actually give you a raw block?)
1849 2013-08-13 20:10:33 <sipa> getblock <hash> false
1850 2013-08-13 20:10:34 <michagogo> torrent?
1851 2013-08-13 20:10:40 <sipa> bootstrap.dat torrent
1852 2013-08-13 20:10:47 <michagogo> ...that's old though
1853 2013-08-13 20:11:01 grau has joined
1854 2013-08-13 20:11:20 <michagogo> "getblock 000000000000002979a5ab5f18df3597873c52329a31bbe5c42665208886eb4e false" gives me error -1
1855 2013-08-13 20:11:28 <michagogo> (with a usage message)
1856 2013-08-13 20:11:45 <sipa> hmmm
1857 2013-08-13 20:12:02 <michagogo> Is that in something ahead of 0.8.3?
1858 2013-08-13 20:14:25 <michagogo> ;;calc [bc,blocks]-252013
1859 2013-08-13 20:14:25 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
1860 2013-08-13 20:14:35 <michagogo> ;;calc [bc,blocks] - 252010
1861 2013-08-13 20:14:35 <gribble> 3
1862 2013-08-13 20:15:12 <marcusw> IIRC you can get raw blocks from blockchain.info
1863 2013-08-13 20:16:01 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1864 2013-08-13 20:18:22 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1865 2013-08-13 20:18:51 TomMIRC has quit ()
1866 2013-08-13 20:19:23 <michagogo> marcusw: Looks like it's JSON, not hex: http://blockchain.info/rawblock/000000000000003e28c6e22968f1147afbea6d346011e5ccedbf1338582b5fac
1867 2013-08-13 20:21:06 <runeks> Strange. badblocks just finished without any errors...
1868 2013-08-13 20:21:27 <sipa> runeks: may actually be a temporary problem
1869 2013-08-13 20:21:36 <sipa> as sectors get relocated or aomething
1870 2013-08-13 20:21:51 <runeks> sipa: I hope so. I'll try restoring the backup and letting it run overnight.
1871 2013-08-13 20:22:04 <marcusw> michagogo: perhaps bitcoind can read that?
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1885 2013-08-13 20:40:26 <gfawkes> nice segment on cnbc just now
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2006 2013-08-13 23:07:45 <tekkentux> Hi, I have some questions about getwork:
2007 2013-08-13 23:07:58 <tekkentux> 1.) how much deprecated is it?
2008 2013-08-13 23:08:00 <jgarzik> avoid it
2009 2013-08-13 23:08:34 <tekkentux> 2.) what fields should be changed in the response? just the nonce? timestamp? even more?
2010 2013-08-13 23:09:36 agnostic98 has joined
2011 2013-08-13 23:09:58 <tekkentux> I'd like to implement both getwork and getblocktemplate for maximum compatibility, I started with getwork, because it seemt to be easier.
2012 2013-08-13 23:10:00 <michagogo> tekkentux: It's deprecated enough that you shouldn't use it
2013 2013-08-13 23:10:43 <tekkentux> michagogo, but it should still work, ya?
2014 2013-08-13 23:11:05 <tekkentux> or is it totally broken?
2015 2013-08-13 23:11:30 <michagogo> It's old enough to have been deprecated before I really got into bitcoin
2016 2013-08-13 23:11:36 <michagogo> So I don't really know
2017 2013-08-13 23:11:41 <tekkentux> k
2018 2013-08-13 23:11:51 <michagogo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork may help
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2020 2013-08-13 23:12:09 <tekkentux> I already read that
2021 2013-08-13 23:12:19 <tekkentux> but theres no full example
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2024 2013-08-13 23:12:47 <tekkentux> it just says send back the data (but not exactly what that data should look like...)
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2026 2013-08-13 23:13:05 <tekkentux> bitcoind always answers with "false"
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2028 2013-08-13 23:13:40 <michagogo> tekkentux: You need to send back the data exactly the way you got it, except with the nonce field changed to one that results in a valid block
2029 2013-08-13 23:14:47 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2030 2013-08-13 23:14:57 <michagogo> See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork#Pseudocode
2031 2013-08-13 23:15:33 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: what are you working on? it might make sense to just write a driver for BFGMiner
2032 2013-08-13 23:15:45 <Luke-Jr> then it takes care of GBT for you behind the scenes
2033 2013-08-13 23:16:49 <jgarzik> tekkentux, getwork does work
2034 2013-08-13 23:16:57 <jgarzik> tekkentux, but it's highly inefficient for today's bitcoin
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2036 2013-08-13 23:18:38 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, yes I also thought about extending one of the existing miners, but wanted to implement it myself
2037 2013-08-13 23:19:16 <tekkentux> michagogo, can you have a look at this: http://www.privatepaste.com/7222bc1586/kflsalsk ?
2038 2013-08-13 23:19:33 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: there's also libblkmaker which might be useful - it's a C and Python library that produces getwork-like data from GBT input
2039 2013-08-13 23:20:39 <sipa> tekkentux: reply with the unpadded block header
2040 2013-08-13 23:20:42 <sipa> i think
2041 2013-08-13 23:21:01 <sipa> so 160 hex characters
2042 2013-08-13 23:21:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: replies are supposed to be padded and pre-flipped
2043 2013-08-13 23:21:17 <Luke-Jr> for getwork
2044 2013-08-13 23:21:30 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, I think I'll use that when I implement getblocktemplate. but first I'd like to get getwork to work, to have something working fast
2045 2013-08-13 23:21:56 <michagogo> tekkentux: Maybe what sipa said, but also, I think the nonce is supposed to appear 32 bits later
2046 2013-08-13 23:21:58 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: makes sense. I think michagogo gave you enough info, but feel free to ask if there's anything else
2047 2013-08-13 23:22:12 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: 32 bits later? O.o
2048 2013-08-13 23:22:21 <michagogo> you have 6fd42aa7 in the last line where you had 00000000 in the same place a line above
2049 2013-08-13 23:22:31 <tekkentux> in my paste the last two lines are copy/paste from the json request, for easy comparison of the data I get and the data I send back. Only the nonce differs, but it is not accepted
2050 2013-08-13 23:22:39 <michagogo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork#Pseudocode says it starts 640 bits in
2051 2013-08-13 23:22:51 <michagogo> the start of 6fd42aa7 appears to be 608 bits in
2052 2013-08-13 23:23:02 <michagogo> (or, 8 characters)
2053 2013-08-13 23:23:46 <michagogo> I could be completely misunderstanding (I'm purely looking at the wiki here)
2054 2013-08-13 23:23:52 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: good catch, fixed wiki
2055 2013-08-13 23:24:08 <michagogo> Ah.
2056 2013-08-13 23:24:32 <michagogo> I see, so the wiki had the mistake...
2057 2013-08-13 23:24:36 <michagogo> :D
2058 2013-08-13 23:25:08 <tekkentux> yes I think it should be 640bits including the nonce
2059 2013-08-13 23:26:16 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: So in the monospace after "Then read the final 64 bits in big-endian" the last 32 bits are the nonce field?
2060 2013-08-13 23:27:06 <michagogo> tekkentux: Unless I
2061 2013-08-13 23:27:10 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: yes
2062 2013-08-13 23:27:52 <michagogo> tekkentux: Unless I'm wrong (which I very well might be), the data you send back to bitcoind shouldn't be the "00000002d77f4943..."
2063 2013-08-13 23:28:16 <michagogo> but rather, that byteswapped
2064 2013-08-13 23:28:24 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: it should be 00000002
2065 2013-08-13 23:28:31 <Luke-Jr> the same format it's received
2066 2013-08-13 23:28:32 <michagogo> ...okay
2067 2013-08-13 23:28:46 <michagogo> Oh, right
2068 2013-08-13 23:28:50 <Luke-Jr> ironically, note that 00000002 is actually big endian in this case
2069 2013-08-13 23:28:58 <Luke-Jr> err
2070 2013-08-13 23:29:00 <Luke-Jr> little endian*
2071 2013-08-13 23:29:07 <Luke-Jr> despite its appearance as big endian
2072 2013-08-13 23:29:33 <michagogo> (note that I don't fully understand the whole "endian" think)
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2074 2013-08-13 23:30:05 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: SHA256 works in 32-bit numbers
2075 2013-08-13 23:30:08 <tekkentux> 00000002 is big endian, as it really means 2, doesn't it?
2076 2013-08-13 23:30:13 <Luke-Jr> so every 8 hex digits is a single number
2077 2013-08-13 23:30:23 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: at this level, it means
2078 2013-08-13 23:30:29 <CodeShark> how did the term "endian" get coined in the first place? wouldn't most significant byte first (MSBF) and least significant byte first (LSBF) be better terms?
2079 2013-08-13 23:30:35 <Luke-Jr> 536,870,912
2080 2013-08-13 23:30:39 <michagogo> tekkentux: You could try to use that code to mine against something that supports reject-reason
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2082 2013-08-13 23:31:28 <michagogo> so, ecoinpool/eloipool/poolserverj/pushpool
2083 2013-08-13 23:31:41 <michagogo> oh, or p2pool
2084 2013-08-13 23:31:50 <michagogo> er, not p2pool
2085 2013-08-13 23:32:19 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, why should it mean 536,870,912?
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2087 2013-08-13 23:32:34 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: because that's what it is mathematically for SHA256
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2094 2013-08-13 23:33:19 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: Bitcoin's POW parses the little endian block headers as big endian, thus reversing the byte order
2095 2013-08-13 23:33:52 <CodeShark> same convention is used to display tx hashes - but not for computing the merkle tree
2096 2013-08-13 23:33:58 <Luke-Jr> it's totally braindead, but that's how it is
2097 2013-08-13 23:33:59 <iwilcox> CodeShark: Old joke based on Gulliver's Travels; I'm sure it's on wikipedia. I spent a while training myself to say "little-firstian"
2098 2013-08-13 23:34:07 <tekkentux> but sha is not interested in the meaning of these numbers. and sha works big endian, so 00000002 means 00000002
2099 2013-08-13 23:34:19 <sipa> CodeShark: the big-endians started cracking their eggs at the big end
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2101 2013-08-13 23:34:43 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: SHA256 works with 32-bit numbers.
2102 2013-08-13 23:34:59 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: if you use 00000002 (BE) as the first number, you will get the wrong result
2103 2013-08-13 23:35:08 <CodeShark> sha256 performs addition on 32 bit numbers
2104 2013-08-13 23:35:09 <sipa> Luke-Jr: sha256 is defined on a byte sequence
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2106 2013-08-13 23:35:15 <CodeShark> the bitwise operations don't care about endianness
2107 2013-08-13 23:35:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not internally
2108 2013-08-13 23:35:23 <sipa> irrelevant
2109 2013-08-13 23:35:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not to someone working with it on that level
2110 2013-08-13 23:35:53 <sipa> it's a transgormation from an arbitrary length sequence to a 32-byte sequence
2111 2013-08-13 23:35:57 <tekkentux> I think this discussion goes a little of topic *g*
2112 2013-08-13 23:35:57 <sipa> ok
2113 2013-08-13 23:36:03 <sipa> tekkentux: always
2114 2013-08-13 23:36:06 <CodeShark> it's the addition operations in the sha256 algorithm that makes endianness well-defined
2115 2013-08-13 23:36:18 <tekkentux> the question is why the bitcoind rejects that answer
2116 2013-08-13 23:36:40 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: use a getwork from Eligius, and it will tell you *why* it rejected it
2117 2013-08-13 23:36:56 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, ok I'll try that
2118 2013-08-13 23:36:56 <Luke-Jr> or patch in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1816
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2120 2013-08-13 23:37:05 <michagogo> Or use ecoinpool/eloipool/poolserverj/pushpool
2121 2013-08-13 23:37:20 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: ecp/psj won't even work anymore :p
2122 2013-08-13 23:37:28 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Ah.
2123 2013-08-13 23:37:36 <michagogo> (so why are they still on that page?)
2124 2013-08-13 23:37:41 <sipa> CodeShark: anyway, the big endians started on the big side, so it makes sense to call those that put the most significant digit first?
2125 2013-08-13 23:38:08 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: nobody removed them yet
2126 2013-08-13 23:38:16 <CodeShark> so big startians - or as iwilcox suggests, little firstian
2127 2013-08-13 23:38:23 <CodeShark> or big-firstian
2128 2013-08-13 23:38:51 <CodeShark> anyhow, most significant byte first is about as unambiguous as you can get
2129 2013-08-13 23:39:09 <iwilcox> And takes ages to say :(
2130 2013-08-13 23:39:12 <CodeShark> MSBF
2131 2013-08-13 23:39:21 <michagogo> So to convert a number in hex from big to little endian or vice versa you split it up into 2-digit chunks and reverse the order of those chunks?
2132 2013-08-13 23:39:23 <CodeShark> the beauty of acronyms :)
2133 2013-08-13 23:39:23 <sipa> CodeShark: the 'end' does not refer to "at the end", it refers to the fact that they first do the bigger end :)
2134 2013-08-13 23:39:40 <michagogo> And with getwork you do that for each 4 pairs of digits individually?
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2136 2013-08-13 23:39:43 <CodeShark> sipa: I understand the reasoning - it's still ambiguous :)
2137 2013-08-13 23:39:49 <sipa> sure
2138 2013-08-13 23:39:56 <CodeShark> a stream of bytes has two ends
2139 2013-08-13 23:39:59 <sipa> but historically, it makes sense
2140 2013-08-13 23:40:33 * gmaxwell makes CodeShark use a ones compliment machine.
2141 2013-08-13 23:40:46 <sipa> for eggs it is less ambiguous :p
2142 2013-08-13 23:41:11 <iwilcox> I used to work at Transitive writing dynamic binary translators between BE and LE platforms, so if little-firstian worked for me there, it should work for you :)
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2144 2013-08-13 23:41:46 <tekkentux> little endian and big endian are kinda confusing, because they are just funny names taken from gulliver's travels and not perfectly matimatically defined
2145 2013-08-13 23:41:57 <CodeShark> I guess if the stream is of indefinite length there's only one well-defined end from the beginning
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2148 2013-08-13 23:42:34 <CodeShark> in technical docs I prefer to use MSBF or LSBF
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2150 2013-08-13 23:43:01 <tekkentux> MSBF could mean bit or byte *g*
2151 2013-08-13 23:43:02 <petertodd> CodeShark: wait until you start designing hardware...
2152 2013-08-13 23:43:17 <iwilcox> tekkentux: Heh, stirrer
2153 2013-08-13 23:43:25 <petertodd> LE on an oscilloscope is especially confusing...
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2155 2013-08-13 23:43:36 <michagogo> So to convert a number in hex from big to little endian or vice versa you split it up into 2-digit chunks and reverse the order of those chunks, and with getwork you do that for each 4 pairs of digits individually?
2156 2013-08-13 23:44:05 <CodeShark> how do these concepts apply to analog electronics, petertodd?
2157 2013-08-13 23:44:09 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: yes
2158 2013-08-13 23:44:26 <michagogo> (I just did a line of that manually in notepad++, and that's what it looks like)
2159 2013-08-13 23:44:28 <michagogo> Okay, I see
2160 2013-08-13 23:45:59 <petertodd> CodeShark: If you are watching a serial port with an oscilloscope with LE you get 76543210FEDCBA98 for a 16 bit number (0-F = bit #)
2161 2013-08-13 23:46:23 <petertodd> CodeShark: bigendian FEDCBA9876543210
2162 2013-08-13 23:47:06 <petertodd> CodeShark: of course, occasionally you run into serial protocols using different endiannesses for the bits themselves... but that's pretty rare
2163 2013-08-13 23:47:18 Cory has joined
2164 2013-08-13 23:47:28 <tekkentux> could i be, that I got the target wrong?
2165 2013-08-13 23:47:43 <tekkentux> maybe its not a problem of the data
2166 2013-08-13 23:47:55 <CodeShark> are you talking about the carrier signal? because from what I know oscilloscopes map voltage over time
2167 2013-08-13 23:48:23 <CodeShark> I don't deal in that realm, usually :p
2168 2013-08-13 23:48:28 <CodeShark> I deal in the high-low realm
2169 2013-08-13 23:49:04 <petertodd> CodeShark: er, on an osilloscope the x axis is time, the y the signal (could be voltage, current, whatever)
2170 2013-08-13 23:49:06 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: that's mixed endian ;p
2171 2013-08-13 23:49:24 <petertodd> CodeShark: At time zero the trace is always at the left side of the screen, and as time progresses the trace moves to the right.
2172 2013-08-13 23:49:44 <Luke-Jr> blaming LE because your bits are BE isn't really fair (although I am a BE fan)
2173 2013-08-13 23:49:58 <CodeShark> I'm a consistency fan
2174 2013-08-13 23:50:06 <CodeShark> I don't really care which way you do it as long as you're consistent about it :p
2175 2013-08-13 23:50:21 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heh, well, you can just as easily say it's confusing for the big bit to be on the right, then complain that oscilloscopes are arbitrary for moving left to right :)
2176 2013-08-13 23:50:43 <gmaxwell> I'm a people who gripe about byte order really need to find some tougher problems to work on, because byteorder is the smallest possible inconvience, kinda guy.
2177 2013-08-13 23:51:13 <iwilcox> I'm a "who cares as long as it's not S/390" guy :)
2178 2013-08-13 23:51:30 <gmaxwell> iwilcox: you ever used S/390?
2179 2013-08-13 23:51:37 razorfishsl has joined
2180 2013-08-13 23:51:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: haven't you heard the news? Israel and Palestine signed a for real peace agreement and are holding hands singing as we speak
2181 2013-08-13 23:51:46 <iwilcox> gmaxwell: Yeah, it was one of our target architectures at Transitive.
2182 2013-08-13 23:51:56 <tekkentux> tekkentux, mm no the target looks correct for difficulty 1
2183 2013-08-13 23:52:14 <michagogo> petertodd: I wish :-/
2184 2013-08-13 23:53:09 <michagogo> tekkentux: I assume you're on testnet with your clock set 20 mins ahead?
2185 2013-08-13 23:53:53 AndChat-122100 has joined
2186 2013-08-13 23:54:08 grau has joined
2187 2013-08-13 23:55:09 <tekkentux> michagogo: I am on a testnet in a box. my clock is just normal
2188 2013-08-13 23:55:21 <michagogo> Ah
2189 2013-08-13 23:55:26 <Luke-Jr> iwilcox: time to make an architecture that changes endian on the fly! :P
2190 2013-08-13 23:56:33 <razorfishsl> they missed "selling bitcoin hardware" off the list of dangerous criminal activity
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