1 2013-08-14 00:00:03 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: I think you're being a bit harsh in the paper thread, and also pushing a pretty unrealistic undergrad school-marm defintion of plagerism.
   2 2013-08-14 00:00:14 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, on eligius I would have to mine for month to find a valid block and test lol
   3 2013-08-14 00:00:34 Neozonz has joined
   4 2013-08-14 00:00:48 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: the word loses meaning when you start defining outright ripping people off as the same as taking from your own prior work and those the same as just sucking at research.
   5 2013-08-14 00:00:52 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr,  or is the a testnet or whatever with low difficulty as well?
   6 2013-08-14 00:01:23 <tekkentux> I think I'll try to apply your patch to my bitcoind to get reject reason
   7 2013-08-14 00:02:07 <tekkentux> but It might take some time I'm new to git and that patch stuff
   8 2013-08-14 00:02:15 <razorfishsl> sorry GM... IF you use your OWN previous material and do not corerctly cite then it is considered plagarism
   9 2013-08-14 00:02:53 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: Yes, undergrads get yelled at for turning in their old work— but this has little to do with actual standards for academic honesty and everything to do with educators being lazy and not wanting students to skip out on work by resubmitting.
  10 2013-08-14 00:04:01 <razorfishsl> the IEE is the defacto standard in papers... as such people submitting work should understand that....
  11 2013-08-14 00:04:02 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: you don't have to find a block, Eligius work has a target below bitcoin difficulty 1 by default
  12 2013-08-14 00:04:26 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  13 2013-08-14 00:04:36 <razorfishsl> If it was like some sort of Chinese Univercity... then Who...GAF
  14 2013-08-14 00:04:53 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, cool
  15 2013-08-14 00:05:29 <razorfishsl> anyway I pulld my post... even though I stand 100% behind it....
  16 2013-08-14 00:06:04 <gavinandresen> who did they not cite correctly?  I kinda think that if you go to all the work and pain of actually getting an idea formally written-up and peer-reviewed, then you deserve the credit.  Not the lazy slobs who "only" actually implemented it
  17 2013-08-14 00:06:20 <razorfishsl> sorry does not work like that....
  18 2013-08-14 00:06:26 <gavinandresen> okey dokey
  19 2013-08-14 00:06:47 AndChat-122100 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  20 2013-08-14 00:06:49 <razorfishsl> mainly to stop University profs ripping off ther students
  21 2013-08-14 00:07:44 <gavinandresen> My wife is a university prof, so I've seen all the nastiness that can happen...
  22 2013-08-14 00:08:17 <razorfishsl> I did some 'research' for  cryptograpy and forensics that was later used for court work, by the prof. and I got credit even though it was not formal
  23 2013-08-14 00:08:48 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I don't think anyone is claiming they shouldn't get credit for the paper at all; just that they should have cited some past things
  24 2013-08-14 00:08:58 <rethaw> link please
  25 2013-08-14 00:09:43 <razorfishsl> they put in *most of the work , so getting credit for it is not why I have an issue....
  26 2013-08-14 00:09:54 <Luke-Jr> http://bitcointroll.org/?topic=272709.0
  27 2013-08-14 00:10:46 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: In any case, I think you need to think about what your goal is in complaining? is it to improve behavior or just crap on some people who were working hard to research bitcoin?  ... I thought the approach I took was adequate (if a bit too harsh still), but I do think you're flaming, and it even weakens the argument I made (makes people more likely to ignore it)
  28 2013-08-14 00:11:11 <michagogo> Hey, testnet recently hit 6 digits
  29 2013-08-14 00:11:30 <gavinandresen> mmm.  I think people overestimate the impact of research papers, and underestimate the impact of working code -- at least, if you're a practitioner and not an academic.
  30 2013-08-14 00:11:51 <razorfishsl> Gm... a falling in line with expected stabndards for the IEEE
  31 2013-08-14 00:11:58 <michagogo> Well, ,,[calc 649*20/60] hours ago
  32 2013-08-14 00:11:58 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  33 2013-08-14 00:12:02 <michagogo> er
  34 2013-08-14 00:12:15 <michagogo> ;;calc 649 * 20 / 60
  35 2013-08-14 00:12:16 <gribble> 216.333333333
  36 2013-08-14 00:13:48 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
  37 2013-08-14 00:14:10 <razorfishsl> I read a lot of research papers on various subject, but it gets my back up when I see research in a subject that fails to cite information that is previously available
  38 2013-08-14 00:14:16 <rethaw> gavinandresen: if by people you mean funding organizations, then absolutely!
  39 2013-08-14 00:14:57 <razorfishsl> it is basically the ultimate FU......
  40 2013-08-14 00:15:20 <Luke-Jr> razorfishsl: assuming they knew about it..
  41 2013-08-14 00:16:08 <razorfishsl> Jez.... go read up on the requirment for publishing an academic paper... the bit about 'prior research'
  42 2013-08-14 00:16:27 <razorfishsl> it is a cornerstone requirment
  43 2013-08-14 00:16:35 <rethaw> razorfishsl: this is a conference record
  44 2013-08-14 00:17:01 <razorfishsl> no... no it is not.....
  45 2013-08-14 00:17:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I assume they did, to at least some extent, and they were just following the _norm_ of explictly ignoring all the industry work, just like the other things they cited. Not all bitcoin papers do this, but there is a clique of ones that do. It's a bad practice and it should change.
  46 2013-08-14 00:17:15 <razorfishsl> it is a paper that was published at a conference
  47 2013-08-14 00:18:15 <razorfishsl> gm..... you are highly active in bitcoin... how pissed would you be if everything you did were credited to some other person?
  48 2013-08-14 00:19:08 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, lol my code segfaults, when I connect to eligius, maybe something is different in the json output, I first have to fix that
  49 2013-08-14 00:19:42 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
  50 2013-08-14 00:20:35 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: It happens. (I should note, I've published in IEEE (speech and language processing journal) before, and seperately had other people take credit for my work. Stuff happens.) I'm more concerned with seeing things moving in the right direction than any particular injustice.
  51 2013-08-14 00:21:10 <gmaxwell> People working in industry are not doing that work for the sake of getting (academic) credit like the academics are, it doesn't make failing to credit it good— but it does mean that people care less.
  52 2013-08-14 00:22:02 CheckDavid has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  53 2013-08-14 00:22:28 <gmaxwell> Mostly I worry that people will read the papers and get a really incomplete picture of the discourse so far, and go off and continue publishing in a vacuum.
  54 2013-08-14 00:22:58 <razorfishsl> yep... becasue THEY tehn have to go and find the previous work......
  55 2013-08-14 00:23:06 <razorfishsl> and cite it.....
  56 2013-08-14 00:23:21 <gavinandresen> if only academic papers gave a way to give feedback to their authors….
  57 2013-08-14 00:23:30 <razorfishsl> they do....
  58 2013-08-14 00:23:38 bbbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  59 2013-08-14 00:23:41 <razorfishsl> look at the top of hte paper....
  60 2013-08-14 00:23:49 <gavinandresen> TROLL SUCCESSFUL!
  61 2013-08-14 00:23:52 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  62 2013-08-14 00:24:14 <gavinandresen> I'm cheating,though, it's morning here, you're probably tired at the end of along day...
  63 2013-08-14 00:24:21 <razorfishsl> sorry I thought you were just uneducated and incapable of reading a research paper....
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  65 2013-08-14 00:25:15 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: I suppose you got your IRC nick in reference to your bedside manner? :P
  66 2013-08-14 00:26:18 <razorfishsl> no... I have a certain outlook on life, 90% of hich is policing other people and systems....
  67 2013-08-14 00:28:16 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: well, if you'd like to make a difference here, instead of yelling at one set of authors, go through the other publications on bitcoin and at least yell at all of the ones who didn't cite the relevant industry activity. :P
  68 2013-08-14 00:28:18 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Nap time)
  69 2013-08-14 00:28:34 Lolcust has joined
  70 2013-08-14 00:28:58 <razorfishsl> you were my hero... so I thought I would stick around as a sidekick and become famous......
  71 2013-08-14 00:29:06 <gmaxwell> :P
  72 2013-08-14 00:29:09 <razorfishsl> lol
  73 2013-08-14 00:30:22 <gmaxwell> Even sidekicks get their own adventures. I would be super happy if there were someone who was not me going around nagging academics to cite "industry activity" in their work.
  74 2013-08-14 00:30:58 <gmaxwell> And it sounds like you are especially sensitive to this subject, which makes you a good candidate.
  75 2013-08-14 00:31:44 paybitcoin has joined
  76 2013-08-14 00:31:54 <gmaxwell> (and I think complaining is easier when you're not insisting that they cite your own work— I always hated in peer review getting comments back from reviwers which seemed hardly applicable, but they only wanted you to include something else so you'd cite their work)
  77 2013-08-14 00:32:35 <CodeShark> when all you've got is a hammer...
  78 2013-08-14 00:32:56 <razorfishsl> Really this should be the job of peer review ...
  79 2013-08-14 00:33:31 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  83 2013-08-14 00:35:12 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, found the problem: eligius does not support getmininginfo, which is called by my miner first
  84 2013-08-14 00:35:17 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: it should be, but this is a new area, no one knows anything, and it seems that a lot of the review is just an echo chamber of people who are just citing each other in isolation from industry.
  85 2013-08-14 00:35:32 macboz has joined
  86 2013-08-14 00:36:13 <razorfishsl> I don't believe that is entirely true.. there are some very knowlagable people in bitcoin
  87 2013-08-14 00:36:21 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  88 2013-08-14 00:36:27 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  89 2013-08-14 00:36:34 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: few of which are participating in the peer review process.
  90 2013-08-14 00:36:46 <gmaxwell> If you go look at some of the things being published... some of it is really laughable.
  91 2013-08-14 00:37:01 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  93 2013-08-14 00:37:30 <gmaxwell> like "did someone who ever used bitcoin beyond blockchain.info even read this paper??"
  94 2013-08-14 00:37:33 <razorfishsl> yep... I saw something not yet published. where they confuse owning 51% of bitcoins with a 51% attack
  95 2013-08-14 00:37:46 <gmaxwell> right!
  96 2013-08-14 00:38:12 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: getmininginfo is not a standard
  97 2013-08-14 00:38:23 <Luke-Jr> just a bitcoind RPC
  98 2013-08-14 00:38:59 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: I saw one that I punted back to the authors where basically they believed that blocks were stored and transmitted as json, and were proposing a custom (and not very inspired) json compressor to reduce the size of the blockchain.
  99 2013-08-14 00:39:06 Coincide_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 100 2013-08-14 00:39:36 <CodeShark> lol
 101 2013-08-14 00:39:44 <razorfishsl> sounds workable....
 102 2013-08-14 00:40:21 <gmaxwell> it sounds like a great idea, if you know nothing.
 103 2013-08-14 00:40:37 <gmaxwell> I'm sure they could have gotten it published somewhere, had I not rained on their day.
 104 2013-08-14 00:40:46 <CodeShark> you should have let them :p
 105 2013-08-14 00:41:03 <gmaxwell> and then you'd end up with a growing mountain of bitcoin publications talking about the inefficient json format of the blockchain. :P
 106 2013-08-14 00:41:09 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, yes it's not a problem, I removed that call, now it works
 107 2013-08-14 00:41:37 <razorfishsl> I was looking at an exploit of hte messaging system........
 108 2013-08-14 00:41:41 one_zero has joined
 109 2013-08-14 00:41:42 <rethaw> I'm 100% less concerned with academic bitcoin papers than I am about legislative bitcoin papers
 110 2013-08-14 00:41:56 <rethaw> The problem comes in if the legislators are basing everything off of academia
 111 2013-08-14 00:42:07 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: 20 years from now academia would be researching a kind of twisted-manifold bitcoin which has no relationship to the real thing. :P  "Proposal for removing IP addresses from bitcoin transactions"
 112 2013-08-14 00:42:46 <rethaw> It seems to me that the most important things written on bitcoin have and always will be in gist and issue trackers
 113 2013-08-14 00:43:06 <razorfishsl> well lets jusat wait for IPV6.......
 114 2013-08-14 00:43:07 <gmaxwell> "It is well known that bitcoin transactions contain the ip address of their sender[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] in order to prevent double spending attacks[10][11][12][13] and insults against satoshi[14] ..."
 115 2013-08-14 00:43:48 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, thx to eligius I found the problem: "code":100,"message":"'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0xff in position 348: invalid start byte"
 116 2013-08-14 00:44:20 <CodeShark> when you're in the world of deliberate obfuscation, where using meaningless yet complex sounding language is a common tactic, this stuff seems almost normal :p
 117 2013-08-14 00:44:51 <CodeShark> the more meaningless your paper the more intimidating it is
 118 2013-08-14 00:44:56 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, It's even in my paste http://www.privatepaste.com/a43ffa287e/kflsalsk (just scroll far to the right) lol !
 119 2013-08-14 00:45:03 <CodeShark> at least to those who have even less of a clue than you do
 120 2013-08-14 00:45:23 <razorfishsl> thats why  Burnard lee came up with hypertext markup.... so even complexity has its uses
 121 2013-08-14 00:48:50 <CodeShark> Purposive utilization of convoluted, verbose communication mechanisms produces impressions upon the ignorant of profound sophistication. In other words, using big words can make you sound deep.
 122 2013-08-14 00:51:04 <rethaw> prolix pleonasms placate pontificators
 123 2013-08-14 00:51:09 <gmaxwell> passively.
 124 2013-08-14 00:51:35 <rethaw> gmaxwell on the level
 125 2013-08-14 00:52:05 sserrano44 has joined
 126 2013-08-14 00:52:11 <CodeShark> esoteric greek and latin do the trick as well
 127 2013-08-14 00:53:47 <CodeShark> anyhow, some people seem to publish just for the sake of sounding smart rather than to actually say anything substantife
 128 2013-08-14 00:53:52 <CodeShark> *substantive
 129 2013-08-14 00:54:41 <gmaxwell> there are plenty of ideas in our space which would be served well by a more structured and deeper evaluation than a forum / mailing list post though.
 130 2013-08-14 00:54:44 <razorfishsl> Ornithorhynchus anatinus ορνιθόρυγχος, sounds better than duck billed platypus
 131 2013-08-14 00:55:01 <iwilcox> Where's nsh when you need him?
 132 2013-08-14 00:56:07 <CodeShark> if it weren't for greek and latin, english would be restricted to topics like fox hunting
 133 2013-08-14 00:56:24 Neskia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 134 2013-08-14 00:57:59 <nsh> on fire
 135 2013-08-14 00:57:59 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: eh, don't see it in the paste :p
 136 2013-08-14 00:57:59 <razorfishsl> "Virus delivery via the bitcoin chain"  for a research paper?
 137 2013-08-14 00:57:59 Nesetalis has joined
 138 2013-08-14 00:58:27 <CodeShark> someone already published an injector script into the block chain
 139 2013-08-14 00:58:50 <razorfishsl>  I was thiknig something a bot more mischevious
 140 2013-08-14 00:58:58 <razorfishsl> *bit
 141 2013-08-14 00:59:40 <CodeShark> well, given that block chain data isn't normally allowed to execute as code (except for the very restricted script)...
 142 2013-08-14 00:59:56 Diapolis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 143 2013-08-14 00:59:59 <razorfishsl> yep, but this is an interesting side channel attack.....
 144 2013-08-14 01:00:30 Diapolis has joined
 145 2013-08-14 01:00:50 <razorfishsl> Actually a couple
 146 2013-08-14 01:02:05 <razorfishsl> you don't need to execute code to give someone a bad day.....
 147 2013-08-14 01:02:30 <CodeShark> not sure I follow
 148 2013-08-14 01:02:53 <CodeShark> are you talking about writing a BS article as a sidechannel attack on BS academics? :)
 149 2013-08-14 01:03:03 <razorfishsl> nope
 150 2013-08-14 01:03:12 <razorfishsl> a possible side channel attack
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 152 2013-08-14 01:03:29 <razorfishsl> but  thats an interesting idea
 153 2013-08-14 01:03:54 <CodeShark> a meme virus?
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 157 2013-08-14 01:04:26 <razorfishsl> no... most AV works by using a  hash to find a virus
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 159 2013-08-14 01:04:50 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: doesn't appear to work, I tried this years ago.
 160 2013-08-14 01:05:03 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: seems that all AV software ignores the blockchain, I dunno why.
 161 2013-08-14 01:05:06 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, fixed that. I just missed a nullterminater, so some crap got into the json. Now the utf-8 error is gone, but it's still not accepted and now error is null even at eligius :(
 162 2013-08-14 01:05:12 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: the testnet chain is stuffed full of fake virus trigger sequences.
 163 2013-08-14 01:05:37 <razorfishsl> and the AV does not corrupt the chain to try and remove them?
 164 2013-08-14 01:05:51 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: if it ever comes up we'll just start xoring the blockchain data with a per host random value, trivial fix... but it hasn't happened.
 165 2013-08-14 01:05:51 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: nope!
 166 2013-08-14 01:06:00 <gmaxwell> This surprised me too.
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 168 2013-08-14 01:06:43 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, do I have to activate more rejection reason output, or are there still cases without a useful message?
 169 2013-08-14 01:06:47 <razorfishsl> it will be becasue AV only searches in the places where execution can be leveraged....
 170 2013-08-14 01:06:48 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: what about if you write a program that loads data from the block chain and moves the stack pointer to it? :)
 171 2013-08-14 01:06:49 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: check the header
 172 2013-08-14 01:06:58 <razorfishsl> rather than a full file search....
 173 2013-08-14 01:07:00 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: getwork's rejection reason is in the X-Reject-Reason header
 174 2013-08-14 01:07:34 <razorfishsl> so.. that means for it to work.. you would have to targeet the blockhain head
 175 2013-08-14 01:07:39 <tekkentux> k
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 180 2013-08-14 01:09:06 <razorfishsl> most AV checks the start & end of a file, as that's how  viri usually attach
 181 2013-08-14 01:09:06 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: maybe then.
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 186 2013-08-14 01:10:04 <gmaxwell> razorfishsl: there may still be some way to trigger it, but I never found one.
 187 2013-08-14 01:10:52 <razorfishsl> I need to find out why my norton picked it up....
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 190 2013-08-14 01:12:15 <gmaxwell> Oh I missed that his AV had picked it up! thats interesting!
 191 2013-08-14 01:12:38 <gmaxwell> If it was the blockchain vs just the bitcoin binary... av products have been triggering on bitcoin related software for a while. :(
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 198 2013-08-14 01:20:43 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, X-Reject-Reason: stale-prevblk
 199 2013-08-14 01:20:43 <tekkentux> are the reasons documented somewhere? the wiki says, "values are undefined"
 200 2013-08-14 01:21:04 <Luke-Jr> BIP 22 defined some
 201 2013-08-14 01:21:08 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0022#Appendix:_Example_Rejection_Reasons
 202 2013-08-14 01:21:19 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 203 2013-08-14 01:21:24 <Luke-Jr> stale-prevblk is basically just an expiration
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 209 2013-08-14 01:27:42 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, (and all others) thank you very much for help. and thank you for the rejection reason thing. that really helps!! I always seem to get these stale prevblk message. but I'll investigate on that tomorrow. I'm much too tired
 210 2013-08-14 01:28:15 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: how long does it take you to fidn the nonce?
 211 2013-08-14 01:28:15 <tekkentux> it's 3 o clock here
 212 2013-08-14 01:28:39 <tekkentux> nonce finding takes about 30 seconds
 213 2013-08-14 01:29:15 <tekkentux> and another 30 seconds to copy/paste the output resend it via curl and read the header in wireshark *g*
 214 2013-08-14 01:29:59 <tekkentux> tomorrow I'll add reading of the response headers into my code
 215 2013-08-14 01:30:00 <Luke-Jr> 60 seconds from when you request the getwork job?
 216 2013-08-14 01:30:12 <tekkentux> yes
 217 2013-08-14 01:32:16 <tekkentux> how long is it allowed to take?
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 220 2013-08-14 01:35:09 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, ?
 221 2013-08-14 01:35:35 <tekkentux> sorry g2g I'm too tired thank you very much for help so far
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 233 2013-08-14 01:58:02 <warren> gavinandresen: around?
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 235 2013-08-14 01:58:30 <gavinandresen> warren: yes, working on smarter transaction fee code
 236 2013-08-14 01:59:08 <warren> gavinandresen: oh?  (interesting, although that's not what I'm asking about)
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 250 2013-08-14 02:14:15 <Luke-Jr> anyone know how to decode Armory signatures?
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 252 2013-08-14 02:15:41 <warren> gavinandresen: is the design of smarter transaction fee written anywhere?
 253 2013-08-14 02:15:47 <warren> or the guist of it?
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 255 2013-08-14 02:17:24 <gavinandresen> warren: nope. I'm going in a slightly different direction than what I wrote about before.  No change to miners, this is just getting the client to make a better estimate about what fee or priority is required to get into one of the next few blocks.
 256 2013-08-14 02:18:16 <warren> gavinandresen: based upon averages or something from past blocks?
 257 2013-08-14 02:19:08 <warren> sounds like the beginnings of a market demand driven floating fee, perhaps as guidance to the user to choose their fee level based upon their appetite for delay?
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 259 2013-08-14 02:19:49 <gavinandresen> based on transactions in the last N blocks.  (and before somebody tells me I'm being an idiot and miners will collude to increase transaction fees… yes, I'm thinking about that)
 260 2013-08-14 02:20:28 <CodeShark> wouldn't you also need to take the mempool into account?
 261 2013-08-14 02:20:33 <warren> exactly
 262 2013-08-14 02:20:36 <gavinandresen> warren: yes, once I've got the low-level estimation done I plan on percolating it up into a better fee-choosing GUI
 263 2013-08-14 02:20:38 <warren> mempool can tell you something about current demand
 264 2013-08-14 02:22:15 <gavinandresen> mempool works great if you're constantly connected, and implementing a memory-limted mempool and then re-using this code to estimate priority/fee based on memory pool should be easy
 265 2013-08-14 02:22:29 <CodeShark> and even then, a mempool snapshot might not be sufficient for good heuristics - you might need to track the mempool over some time period
 266 2013-08-14 02:22:56 <gavinandresen> ANYTHING is better than the hard-coded constants we have now.
 267 2013-08-14 02:23:17 <CodeShark> well, hardcoded constants suck but at least they are easy to predict :)
 268 2013-08-14 02:23:29 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: well, you can fetch the mempool.
 269 2013-08-14 02:23:45 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: mmm.  If you trust who you're fetching from....
 270 2013-08-14 02:23:57 <gavinandresen> (yeah, yeah, can fetch from N peers....)
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 272 2013-08-14 02:24:07 <gmaxwell> ::nods::
 273 2013-08-14 02:24:09 <warren> as SPV clients aren't privy to the mempool state (and last-N blocks of transactions?), I had been thinking about various subscription services that users could opt-in to that follow recent fee behavior to serve as guidance on the appropriate fee level to choose depending on how long they want to wait.  External monitoring agencies can also examine blocks from pools to detect mining policy changes and collusion, allowing the public interesting fo
 274 2013-08-14 02:24:09 <warren> dder for comment.
 275 2013-08-14 02:24:41 <CodeShark> warren: SPV clients can grab the mempool off any full node
 276 2013-08-14 02:25:08 <warren> and they just trust it?
 277 2013-08-14 02:25:39 <CodeShark> in general they cannot ensure all the inputs connect - but there are ways around this limitation
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 279 2013-08-14 02:26:06 <gavinandresen> SPV clients don't know the fees associated with those transactions (unless I missed a nifty feature of the fetch-mempool functionality, which I admit I know nothing about)
 280 2013-08-14 02:26:39 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: indeed, in general they cannot know the fees (another reason why the input amount should be stored in the transaction inputs)
 281 2013-08-14 02:27:01 <CodeShark> but they can still construct a few transactions specifically to monitor fees
 282 2013-08-14 02:27:21 <gavinandresen> NACK, no reason to put them in the inputs.  Should be broadcast with the transaction, but that's a feature for another day
 283 2013-08-14 02:27:31 <warren> It would be cool to have a way for all clients to monitor fee behavior to give guidance based entirely on the chain + mempool, but I suspect competing external agencies may be better able to do it with a world-wide view and better analysis capabilities than any individual node.
 284 2013-08-14 02:28:06 <gavinandresen> here's where I say "okey dokey" and then go back to writing code....
 285 2013-08-14 02:28:10 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: you can get the average fees pretty easily from the coinbase.
 286 2013-08-14 02:29:01 <CodeShark> the original reason I wanted them in the inputs was so that a minimal signing agent can construct a redeem script from an output and sign it without the risk of being tricked into thinking that a 100btc output was actually only 1 btc
 287 2013-08-14 02:29:24 <CodeShark> the workaround being giving the signer the full transaction with that output
 288 2013-08-14 02:29:31 <CodeShark> but that's a separate discussion
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 379 2013-08-14 05:45:52 <petertodd> gavinandresen: You going to weight the fee information by Bitcoin days destroyed?
 380 2013-08-14 05:46:43 <petertodd> warren: IMO the #1 thing re: usability is to allow changing the fee after the fact - a slow transaction is a nuisance, but a stuck one really sucks.
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 406 2013-08-14 06:26:30 <turboroot> Can anybody expand upon this list? https://gist.github.com/turboroot/6144238
 407 2013-08-14 06:26:35 <turboroot> Seems a bit short at the moment
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 437 2013-08-14 07:05:20 <Hadaka> b
 438 2013-08-14 07:05:24 <Hadaka> whoops
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 475 2013-08-14 07:58:35 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: I'd suggest removing brainwallet, from the website at least <.<
 476 2013-08-14 07:58:57 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: also, Armory is Python 2
 477 2013-08-14 07:59:25 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: and P2Pool is twisted, which I'm not sure really counts as Python XD
 478 2013-08-14 08:00:30 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: and listing BFGMiner before cgminer ;p
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 481 2013-08-14 08:04:10 <Luke-Jr> turboroot: the current cgminer is actually a fork of BFGMiner, fwiw
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 495 2013-08-14 08:16:25 <gmaxwell> turboroot: careful to take luke's suggestions with a grain of salt. Luke is a smart guy, but some of his positions are controversial and he won't always warn you which ones will get you into trouble. :)
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 504 2013-08-14 08:24:36 <abrkn> for an electrum chain, what is the chain code and what is the root code?
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 517 2013-08-14 08:50:54 <ThomasV> abrkn: electrum < 1.9 does not use bip32
 518 2013-08-14 08:51:32 <ThomasV> check out the (unstable) 1.9 branch of electrum if you want bip32
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 529 2013-08-14 09:20:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hey :<
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 537 2013-08-14 09:33:27 <kuzetsa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2894 <-- fees are zero when I restarted just now... is that a hardcoded change from the older 0.005 or whatever it was?
 538 2013-08-14 09:33:35 agnostic98 has joined
 539 2013-08-14 09:34:02 <kuzetsa> (I re-tested by changing to a non-zero fee, clicking apply, then restarting... it was back to zero)
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 542 2013-08-14 09:37:02 <fanquake> kutzetsa osx?
 543 2013-08-14 09:37:31 <kuzetsa> fanquake: windows 7 x64
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 546 2013-08-14 09:42:48 <kuzetsa> why would you assume mac?
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 548 2013-08-14 09:43:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: btw, "large integer with a '.' inserted" parsing won't work :/
 549 2013-08-14 09:44:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I've seen bitcoind give values that break it I think :|
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 577 2013-08-14 10:47:58 <sipa> ;;genrate 330
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 579 2013-08-14 10:47:58 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 330.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 0.00326624764823 BTC per day and 0.00013609365201 BTC per hour.
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 583 2013-08-14 10:57:46 <t7> not like back in the day, when my old ati could get .1 an hour
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 618 2013-08-14 12:22:29 <TD> good day
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 624 2013-08-14 12:29:08 <fanquake> kuzetsa Some of the settings are broken in the current osx release
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 727 2013-08-14 14:34:18 <jgarzik> http://bitcoinprbuzz.com/worlds-first-stolen-bitcoin-tracing-service-and-bitcoin-data-recovery-high-profile-digital-forensic-services-company-sytech-embraces-bitcoin/
 728 2013-08-14 14:34:32 <jgarzik> World’s First Stolen Bitcoin Tracing Service And Bitcoin Data Recovery – High Profile Digital Forensic Services Company SYTECH Embraces Bitcoin
 729 2013-08-14 14:34:44 michagogo_ is now known as michagogo
 730 2013-08-14 14:34:58 <petertodd> we really need to get trust free mixing widespread...
 731 2013-08-14 14:35:19 <TD> heh
 732 2013-08-14 14:35:25 <TD> this will always be a cat/mouse game
 733 2013-08-14 14:36:09 <TD> it doesn't say that they plan to be specifically blockchain based anyway. it's a general data forensics company. i'd expect them to use all kinds of things
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 735 2013-08-14 14:36:20 <TD> they also do data recovery
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 737 2013-08-14 14:36:45 <michagogo> petertodd: That's as easy as a group of people getting together, telling each other which inputs they want to use for which outputs, and then passing the transaction around to sign, right?
 738 2013-08-14 14:36:46 <petertodd> if you read the press release it sounds like they're grabbing a quick headline because they wrote a tool that looks for privkeys on harddrives - nothing fancy
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 740 2013-08-14 14:37:43 <petertodd> michagogo: yup, you can even do it in the face of adversaries delibrately trying to attack the process by using fidelity bonds or PoW to ensure there is an incentive to complete the mix, as well as making it expensive to be every participant in every mix (sybil attack)
 741 2013-08-14 14:38:05 <michagogo> fidelity bonds or PoW? Hmm?
 742 2013-08-14 14:38:18 <michagogo> I'm not sure I understand... what is there to attack
 743 2013-08-14 14:38:18 <michagogo> ?
 744 2013-08-14 14:38:24 <petertodd> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fidelity_bonds
 745 2013-08-14 14:39:00 <TD> i have a case of a person who has managed to get a wallet that serializes to over 11mb of transactions in protobuf form. impressive.
 746 2013-08-14 14:39:10 <petertodd> first of all you want to decouple the process of agreeing to put money in the mix, and asking for a specific output, or anyone can just track who put money in for what transaction outputs
 747 2013-08-14 14:39:11 <TD> and it all adds up to just ~0.8 coins
 748 2013-08-14 14:39:19 <TD> now blockchain won't let them spend their money
 749 2013-08-14 14:39:30 <michagogo> TD: blockchain?
 750 2013-08-14 14:39:35 <michagogo> do you mean bc.i?
 751 2013-08-14 14:39:39 <petertodd> of course, a trusted third party can co-ordinate the mix, but obviously the third party can deanonymize you
 752 2013-08-14 14:39:40 <TD> yeah
 753 2013-08-14 14:40:34 <TD> the error message it gives is quite confusing and poorly written i must say. i think it's trying to say that there are unconfirmed transactions in the wallet, though i can't actually find any myself
 754 2013-08-14 14:40:44 <petertodd> on the other hand, if there isn't a link between putting money in the mix, and specifying transaction outputs, someone can DoS attack the mixing process by simply not signing for the inputs they specified - hence a PoW or fidelity bond to make doing that expensive enough that people can't easily attack it
 755 2013-08-14 14:40:48 <TD> or possibly that trying to spend the money results in a transaction so gigantic that it consumes nearly all the money in fees
 756 2013-08-14 14:40:54 <TD> not sure which
 757 2013-08-14 14:40:56 <TD> will require some debugging
 758 2013-08-14 14:42:27 <michagogo> petertodd: Erm, but how can you ensure that the person putting the money in is the same person putting an output in?
 759 2013-08-14 14:42:36 <michagogo> Oh, wait, ignore that.
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 769 2013-08-14 14:58:14 <TD> petertodd: you will find this paper interesting
 770 2013-08-14 14:58:14 <TD> http://css.csail.mit.edu/6.858/2013/readings/intel-sgx.pdf
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 819 2013-08-14 16:01:51 <nsh> comment? http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/08/12/every-important-person-in-bitcoin-just-got-subpoenaed-by-new-yorks-financial-regulator/
 820 2013-08-14 16:03:21 <Graet> yeah most agree "some US based bitcoin businesses" would have been a more accurate title
 821 2013-08-14 16:05:06 * gmaxwell is happy to be unimportant
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 823 2013-08-14 16:06:46 <handle> lol
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 853 2013-08-14 16:45:19 <helo> did any devs get subpoenaed?
 854 2013-08-14 16:47:10 <handle> nope
 855 2013-08-14 16:47:14 <handle> just companies
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 903 2013-08-14 18:01:47 <jgarzik> ProcessMessages(getblocks, 902 bytes) : Exception 'CDataStream::read() : end of data' caught, normally caused by a message being shorter than its stated length
 904 2013-08-14 18:01:47 <jgarzik> ProcessMessage(getblocks, 902 bytes) FAILED
 905 2013-08-14 18:01:54 * jgarzik wonders what software generated that
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 940 2013-08-14 18:49:13 <diki> so slow
 941 2013-08-14 18:49:19 <diki> the syncing these days is so slow
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 946 2013-08-14 19:02:41 <Zoop_> download the blockchain from a torrent
 947 2013-08-14 19:02:41 <Zoop_> diki ^
 948 2013-08-14 19:02:41 <diki> oh it was just 3 days
 949 2013-08-14 19:02:41 <diki> but it took forevef
 950 2013-08-14 19:02:41 <diki> forever*
 951 2013-08-14 19:02:41 <diki> Glad to say I just paid to the humble bundle via Bitcoin
 952 2013-08-14 19:02:41 <diki> I am thankful it has expanded to accept it
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1087 2013-08-14 21:43:02 <tekkentux> Hi, I'm getting h-not-zero erros when submitting a block with getwork. I think that means the hash does not have 32 leading zeros. But actually it does. And I think I hashed the correct data, because the debug output of my full sha256 algorithm shows the correct midstate.
1088 2013-08-14 21:44:07 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: did you reverse the data format for submission?
1089 2013-08-14 21:45:03 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, I send the exact data to the server as I received them before (just changed the nonce)
1090 2013-08-14 21:46:11 btcbtc has joined
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1092 2013-08-14 21:47:29 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: but did you flip the nonce order to match it?
1093 2013-08-14 21:48:19 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
1094 2013-08-14 21:49:38 <tekkentux> I flipped the endianness to little endian
1095 2013-08-14 21:49:42 <tekkentux> of the nonce
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1101 2013-08-14 21:53:15 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, http://www.privatepaste.com/780af14f0f/lsdkfjdskj this is the output. is the nonce not set to zero when getting work from eligius?
1102 2013-08-14 21:54:54 <tekkentux> my successful nonce is 11011785, but in the requested data there was a diffent nonce (non zero) in that place already. is that normal?
1103 2013-08-14 21:54:54 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: Successful nonce: [2232877329] <-- is that little or big endian?
1104 2013-08-14 21:55:50 <tekkentux> 2232877329  <-- that is bigendian, and in hex 85170111
1105 2013-08-14 21:56:21 <tekkentux> it put it into the response data reversed
1106 2013-08-14 21:56:32 <tekkentux> but also hashed it reversed
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1108 2013-08-14 21:57:06 <tekkentux> btw the hash should not care about endianess of the nonce because it is nonce ....
1109 2013-08-14 21:57:12 <MC1984> could anyone answer a few questions about bitcoin multihtreading and stuff?
1110 2013-08-14 21:57:18 <MC1984> like what is the latest checkpoint
1111 2013-08-14 21:57:28 <tekkentux> I send it exacly the way it was in the data, when I hashed them
1112 2013-08-14 21:57:42 <MC1984> and what should i be seeing on an i7
1113 2013-08-14 21:58:44 <sipa> MC1984: last checkpoint is 225430
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1115 2013-08-14 22:00:36 <MC1984> oh right
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1117 2013-08-14 22:01:04 <MC1984> dbcache=4096 doesnt seem to be working either, judging by the disk load
1118 2013-08-14 22:01:14 <MC1984> unless that also mainly kicks in ater the checkpoint
1119 2013-08-14 22:01:36 <EasyAt> sipa: Do you know why bootstrap hasn't been updated to the newest checkpint?
1120 2013-08-14 22:01:43 <EasyAt> checkpoint*
1121 2013-08-14 22:01:55 <MC1984> wait why dont i just do nocheckpoints
1122 2013-08-14 22:02:00 <MC1984> herp derp
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1124 2013-08-14 22:02:27 <sipa> MC1984: what platform?
1125 2013-08-14 22:02:31 <super3> hello
1126 2013-08-14 22:02:33 <sipa> EasyAt: it hasn't?
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1128 2013-08-14 22:02:50 <EasyAt> Height 193,000 is the height of the current checkpoint
1129 2013-08-14 22:02:59 <MC1984> i7 with 8gb memory
1130 2013-08-14 22:03:00 <EasyAt> that's what it says on the bootstrap.dat page
1131 2013-08-14 22:03:20 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: try filliping it just to check
1132 2013-08-14 22:03:48 <gmaxwell> updating the bootstrap.dat means blowing away the current torrent swarm. There is a tradeoff there...
1133 2013-08-14 22:03:56 <sipa> EasyAt: what "bootstrap.dat page" ?
1134 2013-08-14 22:04:01 <EasyAt> http://eu2.bitcoincharts.com/blockchain/
1135 2013-08-14 22:04:22 <sipa> EasyAt: that's ancient; i think the website has even been sold
1136 2013-08-14 22:04:38 <EasyAt> sipa: ah, ty
1137 2013-08-14 22:04:39 <sipa> afaik the only "official" page about bootstrap.dat is the forum announcement
1138 2013-08-14 22:04:46 <sipa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
1139 2013-08-14 22:04:56 <EasyAt> Thank you for that :)
1140 2013-08-14 22:05:10 <sipa> it has blocks up to 238000
1141 2013-08-14 22:06:06 <MC1984> the bootstrap torrent swarm seems to recover quite nicely when its updated, as ive seen
1142 2013-08-14 22:06:15 <sipa> MC1984: what OS?
1143 2013-08-14 22:06:23 <MC1984> especially if people just recheck the old data as recommended
1144 2013-08-14 22:06:34 <MC1984> sipa windows 8 (it came with it)
1145 2013-08-14 22:06:45 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, I'll try that and also add some more debug output.
1146 2013-08-14 22:06:51 <sipa> MC1984: unless you compiled bitcoin yourself in 64-bit mode, there is no way you can use that much memory
1147 2013-08-14 22:06:54 <sipa> MC1984: at all
1148 2013-08-14 22:07:04 <sipa> iirc 32-bit windows processes are limited to 3.something GB
1149 2013-08-14 22:07:14 <MC1984> oh you are right, its a 32bit app
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1151 2013-08-14 22:07:22 <MC1984> ill do 2048 then
1152 2013-08-14 22:07:41 <sipa> but i don't think that should be observable until you actually reach that much memory usage
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1154 2013-08-14 22:11:32 <maaku> for the repeat-hash transactiosn, which one is spendable, the first or the last?
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1159 2013-08-14 22:12:51 <gmaxwell> maaku: they're identical. if a tree falls in a blockchain and there isn't anyone there to hear it...
1160 2013-08-14 22:13:26 <maaku> gmaxwell: different CCoins, different utxo hash
1161 2013-08-14 22:13:27 <super3> gmaxwell, heh
1162 2013-08-14 22:13:28 <gmaxwell> maaku: there harmfulness comes from the question of restoring them around reorgs.
1163 2013-08-14 22:13:41 <maaku> so i guess i get to choose then
1164 2013-08-14 22:14:01 <gmaxwell> maaku: uhhhhh are they in the utxo?
1165 2013-08-14 22:14:10 <sipa> maaku: you mean pre BIP30?
1166 2013-08-14 22:14:21 <maaku> sipa: yes
1167 2013-08-14 22:14:27 <sipa> don't bother
1168 2013-08-14 22:14:31 <sipa> it's ancient history
1169 2013-08-14 22:14:34 <maaku> gmaxwell: CCoins has the height of the transaction
1170 2013-08-14 22:14:51 <sipa> maaku: the semantics were that the new transaction overwrites the old UTXO entry for that txid
1171 2013-08-14 22:15:00 <wizkid057> tekkentux: was the different nonce "Eloi"?
1172 2013-08-14 22:15:03 <maaku> sipa: ok. thanks
1173 2013-08-14 22:15:09 <gmaxwell> maaku: there should only ever be one utxo for a duplicated transaction. If we're ending up with multiple ones left, then thats a hard-fork creating bug.
1174 2013-08-14 22:15:20 <gmaxwell> but I'm pretty sure I checked that we didn't.
1175 2013-08-14 22:15:23 <sipa> indeed
1176 2013-08-14 22:15:27 <sipa> they are indexed by txid
1177 2013-08-14 22:15:30 <sipa> so it's overwritten
1178 2013-08-14 22:16:08 <sipa> as the txid is identical
1179 2013-08-14 22:16:08 <gmaxwell> "whew"
1180 2013-08-14 22:16:08 <wizkid057> tekkentux: IIRC, eloipool fills the initial nonce value with "Eloi"
1181 2013-08-14 22:16:08 <MC1984> ive got an SSD drive on the way too the fastest overall one on the market according to the charts
1182 2013-08-14 22:16:08 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: ^
1183 2013-08-14 22:16:08 <MC1984> so that should be interesting to try with
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1185 2013-08-14 22:16:35 <maaku> gmaxwell: there is only one utxo entry for the duplicated transaction, but the utxo representation stores the height, so if you hash the utxo structure it matters which one
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1187 2013-08-14 22:17:02 <sipa> btw: first seemingly stable headers-first + parallel block download version: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/headersfirst
1188 2013-08-14 22:19:19 <sipa> feel free to hammer :p
1189 2013-08-14 22:19:19 <sipa> i get up to 3 MB/s with it, from random peers
1190 2013-08-14 22:19:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: merge it. :P
1191 2013-08-14 22:19:19 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1192 2013-08-14 22:19:44 <sipa> (the only non-stable part was reindexing, which seems to work fine now, but i want to clean that code up a bit still)
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1195 2013-08-14 22:20:15 <sipa> probably the most elaborate commit message ever :p
1196 2013-08-14 22:20:21 <MC1984> sipa you actually did a headers first bitcoind?
1197 2013-08-14 22:20:29 <sipa> MC1984: yes
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1199 2013-08-14 22:20:40 <sipa> (not SPV)
1200 2013-08-14 22:20:49 <sipa> just headers-first block syncing
1201 2013-08-14 22:20:52 <MC1984> dude thats amazing
1202 2013-08-14 22:21:05 <MC1984> SPV mode cant be far behind though right?
1203 2013-08-14 22:21:15 <maaku> MC1984: totally different
1204 2013-08-14 22:21:19 <sipa> not really
1205 2013-08-14 22:21:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's a single commit? :|
1206 2013-08-14 22:21:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: there's several commits, but the important one is a single yes
1207 2013-08-14 22:21:52 <gmaxwell> maaku: in the reference codebase, the headers first is really most of the support needed for spv.
1208 2013-08-14 22:21:53 <MC1984> so not quite use-it-while-it-syncs yet
1209 2013-08-14 22:22:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: your last git commit looks differnet to github
1210 2013-08-14 22:22:17 <sipa> ?
1211 2013-08-14 22:22:22 <Luke-Jr> diff email or something
1212 2013-08-14 22:22:33 <sipa> ah, yes
1213 2013-08-14 22:22:44 <tekkentux> wizkid057, yes it is 456c6f69 = Eloi
1214 2013-08-14 22:22:45 <gmaxwell> sipas been hacked!
1215 2013-08-14 22:23:09 <tekkentux> Wild0wnes, so that seems to be normal
1216 2013-08-14 22:23:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: fixed :)
1217 2013-08-14 22:23:35 <Luke-Jr> woohoo, found a new way to kill bugs
1218 2013-08-14 22:23:41 <jouke> sipa: cool! Thanks! I'll check it out tomorrow
1219 2013-08-14 22:23:43 <Luke-Jr> valgrind wine
1220 2013-08-14 22:23:45 <Luke-Jr> :D
1221 2013-08-14 22:23:48 <Wild0wnes> say wha?
1222 2013-08-14 22:23:58 <Luke-Jr> Wild0wnes: he was talking to wizkid057
1223 2013-08-14 22:23:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea...
1224 2013-08-14 22:24:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that sounds... masochistic
1225 2013-08-14 22:24:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: better than trying to do the same on Windows
1226 2013-08-14 22:24:22 <Luke-Jr> it's even "supported": http://wiki.winehq.org/Wine_and_Valgrind
1227 2013-08-14 22:24:28 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1228 2013-08-14 22:25:00 <sipa> maaku: going from headers-first to SPV is really just 1) use wallet-directed filtered block fetch instead of everything, 2) use pindexBestHeader instead of pindexBest in wallet code
1229 2013-08-14 22:25:20 <Wild0wnes> thank you Luke-Jr i'm just poking in here
1230 2013-08-14 22:25:26 <sipa> well, probably the wallet just wants its private "sync point"
1231 2013-08-14 22:26:35 <MC1984> i dont think anyone can dispute the amount of raw engineering work youve done on the core client sipa
1232 2013-08-14 22:26:40 <MC1984> well done :)
1233 2013-08-14 22:26:40 <maaku> sipa: thank you, i didn't know it'd be that easy
1234 2013-08-14 22:27:00 <sipa> maaku: in practice, i'm sure it won't be :)
1235 2013-08-14 22:27:07 <sipa> but at least in theory it is!
1236 2013-08-14 22:28:30 <sipa> so i guess the ideal steps are 1) headers-first  2) SPV  3) 1+2 simultaneously
1237 2013-08-14 22:28:53 <Luke-Jr> 4) buy pizza for 0.001 BTC
1238 2013-08-14 22:29:06 <gmaxwell> 4) sell pizza for 0.001
1239 2013-08-14 22:29:21 <gmaxwell> 5) find out you were on a bogus chain due to a network attacker and lose your 0.001.
1240 2013-08-14 22:29:35 <sipa> 6) ???
1241 2013-08-14 22:29:38 <sipa> 7) Loss!
1242 2013-08-14 22:30:30 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1243 2013-08-14 22:31:43 fishfish has joined
1244 2013-08-14 22:32:21 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
1245 2013-08-14 22:33:11 <sipa> MC1984: yw!
1246 2013-08-14 22:33:23 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1247 2013-08-14 22:34:52 dikidera has joined
1248 2013-08-14 22:34:54 <MC1984> hey, is the command NOCHECKPOINT or NOCHECKPOINTS
1249 2013-08-14 22:35:07 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1250 2013-08-14 22:35:27 <Cusipzzz> sipa: nice work, thanks!
1251 2013-08-14 22:35:33 btcbtc has joined
1252 2013-08-14 22:35:36 <nsh> it's nocaps (the latter)
1253 2013-08-14 22:35:39 <nsh> ( MC1984 )
1254 2013-08-14 22:36:31 <MC1984> righto
1255 2013-08-14 22:36:42 <sipa> -nocheckpoints
1256 2013-08-14 22:36:55 <MC1984> i usually have con/ini files in caps, seems easier to read
1257 2013-08-14 22:37:12 <nsh> that's an example of stockholm syndrome
1258 2013-08-14 22:37:14 <nsh> :)
1259 2013-08-14 22:37:16 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, flipping did not help. could you have a look at this new debug output: http://www.privatepaste.com/5f2190b2ad/ladskhj maybe you see some thing thats wrong
1260 2013-08-14 22:38:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm. the req size is a bit small early on.
1261 2013-08-14 22:38:37 <MC1984> i got nocheckpints=1 in the conf and dbcache=2048 now
1262 2013-08-14 22:40:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: it is
1263 2013-08-14 22:40:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: but the first 100k blocks only account for a few % of the total time anyway, so i haven't bothered tweaking it
1264 2013-08-14 22:40:47 <MC1984> benchmarking is fun
1265 2013-08-14 22:40:48 <MC1984> i can already tell this machine is......rather faster than my old one. Especially when sunspider finished in less than 100ms
1266 2013-08-14 22:40:48 <nsh> what's sunspider? javascript performance test?
1267 2013-08-14 22:41:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's more obvious on high latency networks— fetching over tor.. obviously slower than the old behavior for at least the first blocks.
1268 2013-08-14 22:42:03 <MC1984> sunspider is a javascript test thing yes
1269 2013-08-14 22:42:42 <MC1984> my old centrino comes out to 1200ms or so on it, so this i7 seems over 10 times faster
1270 2013-08-14 22:42:48 <MC1984> and thats just one thread
1271 2013-08-14 22:43:02 <phantomcircuit> lol centrino
1272 2013-08-14 22:43:11 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, why would you do that to yourself
1273 2013-08-14 22:43:16 <MC1984> dont laugh
1274 2013-08-14 22:43:34 <MC1984> my girlriend stole it from work for me, it has significant sentimental value
1275 2013-08-14 22:43:43 <phantomcircuit> lololol
1276 2013-08-14 22:43:50 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1277 2013-08-14 22:43:51 <phantomcircuit> that is hilarious
1278 2013-08-14 22:43:51 <MC1984> also she is not a scrote, trust me her employer REALLY deserved it
1279 2013-08-14 22:43:55 gfinn has joined
1280 2013-08-14 22:44:51 <MC1984> the screen hinge fucking shattered the day i got the new one after 6 years of service, can you beleive that shit
1281 2013-08-14 22:45:06 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1282 2013-08-14 22:45:13 <MC1984> so now it has a small wooden dowel rod serving as a hinge on one side lol
1283 2013-08-14 22:45:16 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, perfect timing
1284 2013-08-14 22:45:21 <phantomcircuit> im currently waiting for a replacement
1285 2013-08-14 22:45:37 <phantomcircuit> the power cord on my current laptop is broken to the point of duct tape
1286 2013-08-14 22:45:41 <phantomcircuit> and the 'e' key doesn't work
1287 2013-08-14 22:45:44 <phantomcircuit> which is just
1288 2013-08-14 22:45:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: makes sense
1289 2013-08-14 22:45:45 <phantomcircuit> >.>
1290 2013-08-14 22:45:46 <phantomcircuit> <.<
1291 2013-08-14 22:46:07 <MC1984> e is the most frequent letter in english too
1292 2013-08-14 22:46:10 <MC1984> unlucky
1293 2013-08-14 22:46:22 <phantomcircuit> if it was q or something i could maybe live with it
1294 2013-08-14 22:46:25 <MC1984> i suppose that might be why its broke then
1295 2013-08-14 22:46:34 <phantomcircuit> probably
1296 2013-08-14 22:46:49 <MC1984> you could probably ut the dome open and clean the carbom out mind
1297 2013-08-14 22:47:00 <MC1984> if you half cut it or something
1298 2013-08-14 22:47:15 agnostic98 has joined
1299 2013-08-14 22:47:17 <MC1984> probably just a dirty pad
1300 2013-08-14 22:47:22 <maaku> phantomcircuit: you just have to be creative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsby_%28novel%29
1301 2013-08-14 22:47:34 <MC1984> lol
1302 2013-08-14 22:47:58 <phantomcircuit> maaku, :/
1303 2013-08-14 22:48:01 <MC1984> what a prime example of some shit you do just becuase you can
1304 2013-08-14 22:48:12 <phantomcircuit> speaking of which
1305 2013-08-14 22:48:19 * phantomcircuit goes back to low latency trading platform
1306 2013-08-14 22:48:28 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: the nonce byte order in your submission is backward in your paste.
1307 2013-08-14 22:48:35 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: that is the only problem I see
1308 2013-08-14 22:48:40 <phantomcircuit> explain this, django is faster with a bunch of random 'apps' installed
1309 2013-08-14 22:48:45 <phantomcircuit> how is that even possible
1310 2013-08-14 22:49:10 <maaku> phantomcircuit: django is a slow beast. the apps probably speed it up
1311 2013-08-14 22:49:12 <maaku> what are they
1312 2013-08-14 22:49:32 <phantomcircuit> auth/contenttypes/sessions/sites/messages/staticfiles
1313 2013-08-14 22:49:39 troj has joined
1314 2013-08-14 22:50:04 <maaku> ok n/m those won't speed it up - you got other problems
1315 2013-08-14 22:50:16 <phantomcircuit> 1.8 ms vs 1.6 ms to response time
1316 2013-08-14 22:50:18 <phantomcircuit> so confuse
1317 2013-08-14 22:50:58 upb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1318 2013-08-14 22:51:05 PrimeStunna has joined
1319 2013-08-14 22:51:15 <MC1984> ok i started a no checkpoints run about 10 minutes ago and its up to 188k
1320 2013-08-14 22:51:20 <MC1984> is this real life?
1321 2013-08-14 22:51:24 <MC1984> is this just fantasy?
1322 2013-08-14 22:51:32 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1323 2013-08-14 22:51:53 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, real life bro
1324 2013-08-14 22:52:35 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1325 2013-08-14 22:52:36 <sipa> no
1326 2013-08-14 22:52:38 <sipa> this is the futur
1327 2013-08-14 22:52:44 <phantomcircuit> maybe i should just do this with servelets
1328 2013-08-14 22:52:48 <phantomcircuit> servlets*
1329 2013-08-14 22:53:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: I increased request sizes to see if it would be a bit faster, one thing I'm noticing is that the window distributions are pretty unequal.
1330 2013-08-14 22:53:01 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, that was the test you suggested ;) but it didn't help
1331 2013-08-14 22:53:17 <gmaxwell>         "bytesrecv" : 20386574,
1332 2013-08-14 22:53:17 <gmaxwell>         "bytesrecv" : 5886968,
1333 2013-08-14 22:53:17 <gmaxwell>         "bytesrecv" : 5979867,
1334 2013-08-14 22:53:17 <gmaxwell>         "bytesrecv" : 7222169,
1335 2013-08-14 22:53:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, is that over tor?
1336 2013-08-14 22:53:35 <gmaxwell> sure.
1337 2013-08-14 22:53:36 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-14 22:51:24 Requesting 126 blocks from kjy2eqzk4zwi5zd3.onion:8333
1338 2013-08-14 22:53:36 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-14 22:51:24 Requesting 32 blocks from 3lxko7l4245bxhex.onion:8333
1339 2013-08-14 22:53:36 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-14 22:51:24 Requesting 41 blocks from jrxxuashddpplvod.onion:8333
1340 2013-08-14 22:53:36 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-14 22:51:24 Requesting 36 blocks from szsm43ou7otwwyfv.onion:8333
1341 2013-08-14 22:53:39 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-14 22:51:24 Requesting 107 blocks from kjy2eqzk4zwi5zd3.onion:8333
1342 2013-08-14 22:53:42 <MC1984> actually im not convinced this bitcoin.conf is getting loaded, the dbcache switch didnt do anything
1343 2013-08-14 22:54:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: not all peers are the same speed...
1344 2013-08-14 22:54:09 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, pass it as a command line
1345 2013-08-14 22:54:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: and indeed, adjusting the window sizes made it much faster.
1346 2013-08-14 22:54:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: larger window sizes also increase stalls in case of one slow peer too
1347 2013-08-14 22:54:53 <gmaxwell> (I set it to 256 / 4096)
1348 2013-08-14 22:54:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, blocks?
1349 2013-08-14 22:54:53 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1350 2013-08-14 22:54:55 <MC1984> ill try that. i usually use con files i dont know why its not working. Maybe its windows 8 or something
1351 2013-08-14 22:54:57 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: 256 blocks outstanding per peer, total reorder buffer of 4096.
1352 2013-08-14 22:54:57 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: it would
1353 2013-08-14 22:55:19 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, maybe the actually hashed data is wrong. but it could only be the last 16 byte. the first sha block is correct, as it outputs the midstate. Or it might be a difference in the algorithm bitcoind uses, maybe not double sha or a diffrent I.V. for the second sha?
1354 2013-08-14 22:55:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that could very easily result in going over the receive buffer
1355 2013-08-14 22:55:35 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: it's correct with that nonce reversed
1356 2013-08-14 22:55:38 <phantomcircuit> in which case you'll end up flapping with peers
1357 2013-08-14 22:55:39 <phantomcircuit> not fun
1358 2013-08-14 22:56:25 <phantomcircuit> the receive buffer is only 5MB iirc
1359 2013-08-14 22:56:40 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, sure? did you try that?
1360 2013-08-14 22:56:48 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1361 2013-08-14 22:56:49 <sipa> phantomcircuit: receive buffer has nothing to do with it
1362 2013-08-14 22:56:58 <Luke-Jr> tekkentux: yes
1363 2013-08-14 22:57:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that's actually requested blocks right?
1364 2013-08-14 22:57:08 <tekkentux> strange
1365 2013-08-14 22:57:08 <sipa> yes
1366 2013-08-14 22:57:11 K1773R has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1367 2013-08-14 22:57:15 <tekkentux> but nice! :D
1368 2013-08-14 22:57:27 upb has joined
1369 2013-08-14 22:57:39 <sipa> phantomcircuit: but new ones are requested as soon as some are received
1370 2013-08-14 22:57:51 <sipa> phantomcircuit: and the send buffer / receive buffer is never exceeded
1371 2013-08-14 22:58:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: time to 41580 is 9:40 minutes with your tree, 1:20  with my changes.
1372 2013-08-14 22:58:21 <gmaxwell> tried twice and got similar numbers.
1373 2013-08-14 22:58:41 <sipa> cool
1374 2013-08-14 22:58:53 <sipa> we can probably make them dynamic at some point
1375 2013-08-14 22:58:59 <gmaxwell> obviously tor is kind of an extreme case.
1376 2013-08-14 22:59:16 <gmaxwell> but it's also a case where connections get hung sometimes, so its a place where I expect a lot of improvement.
1377 2013-08-14 22:59:25 <phantomcircuit> sipa, which works well as long as the rate blocks are received is below the rate at which they are removed from the receive buffer
1378 2013-08-14 22:59:35 <phantomcircuit> but since you have multiple peers and are requesting 4096 blocks
1379 2013-08-14 22:59:41 <phantomcircuit> that might not happen
1380 2013-08-14 22:59:58 <sipa> this is really just for the very beginning of the chain
1381 2013-08-14 23:00:01 <phantomcircuit> of course you'd need a slow machine receiving and fast peers sending
1382 2013-08-14 23:00:03 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: its not requesting 4096 blocks at omce from a single peer.
1383 2013-08-14 23:00:05 iwilcox has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1384 2013-08-14 23:00:10 troj has joined
1385 2013-08-14 23:00:16 <gmaxwell> and yea, the big windows are only really interesting at the start.
1386 2013-08-14 23:00:18 <sipa> phantomcircuit: and a fast netowrk
1387 2013-08-14 23:00:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, which is to say a low end vps
1388 2013-08-14 23:00:41 <CodeShark> I still think it would be very nice to be able to do a getheaders in increments larger than 1 :)
1389 2013-08-14 23:00:43 <gmaxwell> esp a fast high delay netowrk.
1390 2013-08-14 23:00:57 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: the getheader part goes super fast.
1391 2013-08-14 23:01:05 <CodeShark> yeah, I guess that part doesn't really matter too much
1392 2013-08-14 23:01:13 iwilcox has joined
1393 2013-08-14 23:01:15 <CodeShark> it's at most a difference of a minute or two
1394 2013-08-14 23:01:33 <CodeShark> seconds if you have a fast connection
1395 2013-08-14 23:01:36 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: nah even over tor its fast.
1396 2013-08-14 23:01:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: it looks like it adapts down to smaller fetching fine later in the chain, fwiw.
1397 2013-08-14 23:03:26 K1773R has joined
1398 2013-08-14 23:04:42 <phantomcircuit> opinions on moving policy things into specific objects, RelayPolicy::CheckTransaction for exmaple
1399 2013-08-14 23:04:45 <phantomcircuit> example*
1400 2013-08-14 23:05:23 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1401 2013-08-14 23:05:23 <sipa> perhaps a namespace for now
1402 2013-08-14 23:05:26 <sipa> less code change required
1403 2013-08-14 23:06:00 <phantomcircuit> well just separating policy/static rules/dynamic rules is going to be hard enough
1404 2013-08-14 23:06:20 <phantomcircuit> most of the DoS code is intertwined with rule rules
1405 2013-08-14 23:06:33 <CodeShark> I still propose pulling out a new module validation.h/validation.cpp
1406 2013-08-14 23:06:34 <CodeShark> :)
1407 2013-08-14 23:06:40 <CodeShark> get that code out of main.cpp
1408 2013-08-14 23:06:46 <phantomcircuit> and a lot of the static sanity checks are mixed in with things that rely on blockchain state
1409 2013-08-14 23:07:08 <CodeShark> perhaps allow for template policies
1410 2013-08-14 23:07:26 <CodeShark> although I suppose we might want to allow runtime switches
1411 2013-08-14 23:07:32 tekkentux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1412 2013-08-14 23:08:10 super3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1413 2013-08-14 23:08:13 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: none of the anti-DoS code is policy…
1414 2013-08-14 23:08:22 niko has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1415 2013-08-14 23:09:50 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ok then DoS/relay policy/static rules/state dependent rules
1416 2013-08-14 23:09:50 tekkentux has joined
1417 2013-08-14 23:09:50 <CodeShark> anti-DoS is a bit of a mix between socket-level operations and higher level operations
1418 2013-08-14 23:09:50 upb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1419 2013-08-14 23:09:57 <CodeShark> the rest is strictly the latter
1420 2013-08-14 23:10:56 <gmaxwell> anti-dos is static rules that trigger host blacklisting.
1421 2013-08-14 23:11:19 <gmaxwell> the state dependant rules and policy can't be used for DoS.
1422 2013-08-14 23:11:27 <CodeShark> but anti-dos can include malformed messages
1423 2013-08-14 23:11:36 niko has joined
1424 2013-08-14 23:11:41 <CodeShark> not just syntactically valid but contextually invalid messages
1425 2013-08-14 23:12:19 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: only if the context is that specific peer, rather than the network.
1426 2013-08-14 23:13:08 <CodeShark> point is errors like bad checksums and invalid message lengths should be caught before ProcessMessages
1427 2013-08-14 23:13:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well no a bunch of the state dependent rules and policy could be used to inform the DoS policy
1428 2013-08-14 23:13:11 troj has joined
1429 2013-08-14 23:13:31 <phantomcircuit> such as a peer constantly sending you transactions which contain already spent outputs
1430 2013-08-14 23:13:37 <sipa> i think the validation logic should just return something from a list of error codes
1431 2013-08-14 23:13:47 <sipa> which by the network code can be mapped to dos logic
1432 2013-08-14 23:13:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah pretty much
1433 2013-08-14 23:14:04 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1816
1434 2013-08-14 23:14:12 <phantomcircuit> that's better than what i was thinking which would have run the logic twice
1435 2013-08-14 23:14:20 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no, sending you already spents cannot trigger dos or an attacker could easily partition the network.
1436 2013-08-14 23:14:55 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, how? peers will not relay spend transactions
1437 2013-08-14 23:16:08 <sipa> ideally the blocks-per-peer and reorg-window size are specified in bytes, i think
1438 2013-08-14 23:16:16 <tekkentux> Luke-Jr, how did you try it? when I send that data (using curl) it now says "stale prev-blk" instead of "h-not-zero" no matter if the nonce is correct or not. How could you verify that the data where correct?
1439 2013-08-14 23:16:18 <sipa> with a decaying average measure block size
1440 2013-08-14 23:17:45 agnostic98 has joined
1441 2013-08-14 23:17:58 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: if you have the block yet. For example, a new block happens, I instantly make mutants of all the transactions in it, and then blast them out to all the nodes in the network. Some won't have the block yet, and they'll flood their peers with already-spents and get severed.
1442 2013-08-14 23:18:03 reneg has joined
1443 2013-08-14 23:18:19 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: any logic for dos needs to be truly per-peer or stateless.
1444 2013-08-14 23:18:53 <gmaxwell> and never should a malicious peer be able to get your other peers to DoS you.
1445 2013-08-14 23:19:00 <gmaxwell> Even if you're a fairly braindead node.
1446 2013-08-14 23:19:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, fair enough
1447 2013-08-14 23:19:53 <sipa> that also means we have specific cases to deal with things that used to be allowed, but because illegal in later versions
1448 2013-08-14 23:20:03 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1449 2013-08-14 23:20:13 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
1450 2013-08-14 23:20:26 <sipa> for example, non-canonical sigs don't trigger dos afaik
1451 2013-08-14 23:21:34 Odyessus has joined
1452 2013-08-14 23:21:43 <MC1984> 225818
1453 2013-08-14 23:21:51 <MC1984> is that how many blocks are int he torrent
1454 2013-08-14 23:22:10 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1455 2013-08-14 23:22:36 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1456 2013-08-14 23:23:01 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1457 2013-08-14 23:25:28 Hunger- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1458 2013-08-14 23:25:53 darknyan has quit (Quit: Felt like it.)
1459 2013-08-14 23:27:18 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/utxo_spring_cleaning  < of idle interest, I just scribbled down some of the things that had been talked about.
1460 2013-08-14 23:27:58 btcbtc has joined
1461 2013-08-14 23:28:26 tekkentux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1462 2013-08-14 23:29:09  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1463 2013-08-14 23:30:00  has joined
1464 2013-08-14 23:30:32 darknyan has joined
1465 2013-08-14 23:30:59 <MC1984> if im doing nocheckpoints, shouldnt the multithreading work from block 1?
1466 2013-08-14 23:31:12 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1467 2013-08-14 23:31:14 mrkent has joined
1468 2013-08-14 23:32:03 <sipa> yes
1469 2013-08-14 23:33:40 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it doesn't multhread very much in the early blocks because it still only checks one block at a time.
1470 2013-08-14 23:34:13 <MC1984> oh thats how it does it
1471 2013-08-14 23:34:29 <sipa> yeah, it shards the txins within one block
1472 2013-08-14 23:34:48 roconnor has joined
1473 2013-08-14 23:35:05 grau has joined
1474 2013-08-14 23:35:14 <MC1984> i saw it kick in after 225 on the last run, 8 loaded threads
1475 2013-08-14 23:35:16 <MC1984> pretty cool
1476 2013-08-14 23:35:19 <phantomcircuit> another advantage of more self contained policy stuff
1477 2013-08-14 23:35:30 <phantomcircuit> static checks on blocks could be done in parallel
1478 2013-08-14 23:35:37 <MC1984> im trying to work out if this bitcoind is actually taking any args at all
1479 2013-08-14 23:35:51 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, throw in a connect=127.0.0.1
1480 2013-08-14 23:35:53 <phantomcircuit> see if it works
1481 2013-08-14 23:36:03 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1482 2013-08-14 23:36:04 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'm not sure why that matters
1483 2013-08-14 23:36:24 <sipa> it's just a matter of code organization
1484 2013-08-14 23:36:36 <gmaxwell> the static checks are all super fast in any case.
1485 2013-08-14 23:36:54 tekkentux has joined
1486 2013-08-14 23:37:06 <sipa> indeed
1487 2013-08-14 23:37:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, trivial improvement in parallelism
1488 2013-08-14 23:37:24 <phantomcircuit> just ya know... because
1489 2013-08-14 23:37:32 <MC1984> im pretty sure i can see loading on all cores now around blk 100k or so
1490 2013-08-14 23:37:32 <sipa> the only thing worth parallellizing is signature checks
1491 2013-08-14 23:37:33 <sipa> really
1492 2013-08-14 23:37:48 <sipa> the second-worst thing is fetching stuff from the UTXO set
1493 2013-08-14 23:38:00 <sipa> and that's pretty hard to parallellize
1494 2013-08-14 23:38:02 <MC1984> it seems like bitcoin qt wont take args rom a bitcoin.conf on windows 8 or something
1495 2013-08-14 23:38:06 <MC1984> maybe bug
1496 2013-08-14 23:38:37 <sipa> and the third is likely writing blocks to disk, which should not be done synchronous
1497 2013-08-14 23:38:57 <MC1984> wait do you have to have the rpc user and pwd stuff in there before it will load args
1498 2013-08-14 23:39:09 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1499 2013-08-14 23:39:11 one_zero has joined
1500 2013-08-14 23:39:11 <sipa> no
1501 2013-08-14 23:39:43 <MC1984> dunno then. wouldnt load the conf file but cmd switchs are working
1502 2013-08-14 23:40:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, im not sure the way blocks are currently written to file is even safe
1503 2013-08-14 23:40:26 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it's not
1504 2013-08-14 23:40:34 <sipa> but only during IBD
1505 2013-08-14 23:40:38 <phantomcircuit> there's definitely zero support for shorn writes
1506 2013-08-14 23:41:20 <sipa> so *usually*, the block file is written first, then the block index, which is synced, and then the UTXO set, which is synced
1507 2013-08-14 23:41:26 <sipa> in that order
1508 2013-08-14 23:41:43 <sipa> so that no written data ever depends on unwritten data
1509 2013-08-14 23:41:45 <sipa> however, the first sync is not done during IBD
1510 2013-08-14 23:42:03 <sipa> as it kills performance
1511 2013-08-14 23:42:26 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1512 2013-08-14 23:42:27 <sipa> so you can get a block index entry for which the block data isn't on disk
1513 2013-08-14 23:42:46 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1514 2013-08-14 23:42:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is the header hash checked when block data is read from disk?
1515 2013-08-14 23:42:57 <phantomcircuit> im guessing no
1516 2013-08-14 23:43:39 <sipa> iirc it is
1517 2013-08-14 23:44:19 <sipa> it's cheap in any case, compared to reading it
1518 2013-08-14 23:44:46 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1519 2013-08-14 23:44:54 one_zero has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1520 2013-08-14 23:44:56 <phantomcircuit> iirc sha256*2 ends up taking ~4usec
1521 2013-08-14 23:45:00 <MC1984> gmaxwell i like the utxo lottery :)
1522 2013-08-14 23:45:46 <CodeShark> could we write out the file to a swap file?
1523 2013-08-14 23:46:00 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it only makes sense in the context of the other improvements, because we can really only do the lottery once.
1524 2013-08-14 23:46:26 <sipa> CodeShark: which file?
1525 2013-08-14 23:46:35 <gmaxwell> it we do it multiple times people will intentionally create crap in order to get into the next lottery.
1526 2013-08-14 23:46:35 <MC1984> thats why its at the botom i guess
1527 2013-08-14 23:47:48 macboz has joined
1528 2013-08-14 23:48:18 <MC1984> wow 4 loade cores and its still at 3.2ghz, nearly a ghz over the sticker speed
1529 2013-08-14 23:48:24 <MC1984> turbo boost is cool
1530 2013-08-14 23:48:43 agnostic98 has joined
1531 2013-08-14 23:49:23 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, lol cool
1532 2013-08-14 23:49:26 <phantomcircuit> inb480C
1533 2013-08-14 23:49:57 CodeShark has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1534 2013-08-14 23:50:20 <MC1984> im running a gfx benchmark now too
1535 2013-08-14 23:50:21 CodeShark has joined
1536 2013-08-14 23:50:32 <MC1984> i hope it doesnt catch fire
1537 2013-08-14 23:51:15 <MC1984> this is what happens when someone becomes aware of the bathtub curve
1538 2013-08-14 23:51:27 normanrichards has joined
1539 2013-08-14 23:53:05 Hunger- has joined
1540 2013-08-14 23:53:33 <MC1984> id like to see a no checkpoints run on one of those 12 core xeons or something
1541 2013-08-14 23:53:34 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1542 2013-08-14 23:54:10 <MC1984> i bet someone on the forums will have one of the new mac pros and could oblige
1543 2013-08-14 23:54:53 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, how about an 8 core Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1245 V2 @ 3.40GHz
1544 2013-08-14 23:54:53 <MC1984> 8 actual cores?
1545 2013-08-14 23:55:00 <phantomcircuit> no 4 actual
1546 2013-08-14 23:55:03 <phantomcircuit> 8 threads
1547 2013-08-14 23:55:32 <MC1984> 2011 chip
1548 2013-08-14 23:55:36 <MC1984> mite b cool
1549 2013-08-14 23:55:53 <phantomcircuit> actually
1550 2013-08-14 23:55:57 * phantomcircuit goes back to real work
1551 2013-08-14 23:55:57 <phantomcircuit> :)
1552 2013-08-14 23:56:53 btcbtc has joined
1553 2013-08-14 23:56:54 <MC1984> lol
1554 2013-08-14 23:56:58 <MC1984> lets just say its fast
1555 2013-08-14 23:57:55 <MC1984> now that ive got the benckmark switch working, its getting about 0.25ms/txin contrasted with my previous 13ms or so
1556 2013-08-14 23:58:59 <MC1984> i am chuffin like a muffin as the brits are wont to say. And i have even less sympathy for chain download whiners now, dont most people have hardware from like atleast the last 3 years
1557 2013-08-14 23:59:40 <michagogo> [01:44:40] <MC1984> the screen hinge fucking shattered the day i got the new one after 6 years of service, can you beleive that shit
1558 2013-08-14 23:59:47 <michagogo> I had a similar experience