1 2013-08-15 00:00:38 reneg_ has joined
   2 2013-08-15 00:01:46 <michagogo> After I ordered the laptop I'm on now, but before I actually got it (I live in Israel, ordered in the US and had a relative bring it over) my previous laptop (which was about 5 years old and was painfully slow with a sub-2ghz core 2 duo and 3gb ram, but I didn't realize quite how slow it was until I got this one) decided to stop lighting up the display
   3 2013-08-15 00:02:03 <MC1984> yes, what looks like drop forged aluminium liteally spalled or something
   4 2013-08-15 00:02:21 <MC1984> well maybe just normal forged
   5 2013-08-15 00:02:31 troj has quit (Quit: :()
   6 2013-08-15 00:02:45 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
   7 2013-08-15 00:03:05 <MC1984> that sounds like it could be the inverter. fixable
   8 2013-08-15 00:03:24 <michagogo> Not sure exactly what failed, but if I looked at the right angle I could see faint shadows of what was supposed to be there, helped by shining a flashlight at the display which gave me good visibility but only in 1 spot
   9 2013-08-15 00:03:28 <MC1984> take it out into sunlight and you should be able to see the display still
  10 2013-08-15 00:03:36 <MC1984> yes
  11 2013-08-15 00:04:04 <MC1984> inverter or the cathode exploded or something.
  12 2013-08-15 00:04:18 <michagogo> MC1984: Yeah, but at that point I had either already ordered this one or was already seriously considering getting a new computer, don't remember which
  13 2013-08-15 00:04:32 <MC1984> its a good excuse
  14 2013-08-15 00:04:51 <michagogo> Either way, not worth putting I don't even know how much money into getting the other one repaired
  15 2013-08-15 00:04:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: iirc i first used 128/1024 as limits, and this reaulted in really bad stalls
  16 2013-08-15 00:05:18 <MC1984> you can find spares like that on ebay. Inverters are not hugely expensive
  17 2013-08-15 00:05:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: interesting. Still seems to be going okay here.. though I'm only up to about 200k.
  18 2013-08-15 00:05:45 <MC1984> old laptops make good nas boxes or something. This one will
  19 2013-08-15 00:05:55 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  20 2013-08-15 00:06:06 <michagogo> MC1984: Yeah, I still have it around in case I think of a use for it
  21 2013-08-15 00:06:27 razorfishsl has joined
  22 2013-08-15 00:06:32 <gmaxwell> amusing seeing it pull from my inbounds, which are all 0.0.0.0:0
  23 2013-08-15 00:07:26 <michagogo> At one point I was thinking about putting Ubuntu on it and using it for gitian builds, when I was trying to figure out a way I could help while keeping my laptop HD intact
  24 2013-08-15 00:07:53 <michagogo> ...and then I realized that it was old enough that it didn't have hardware virtualization
  25 2013-08-15 00:08:46 super3 has joined
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  28 2013-08-15 00:11:45 <super3> can someone pass along my pull request? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2898
  29 2013-08-15 00:12:06 <super3> fairly uncontroversial just a few duplicates files in the /doc folder
  30 2013-08-15 00:12:21 Bwild has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  31 2013-08-15 00:12:32 joesmoe has joined
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  33 2013-08-15 00:13:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: might be good to have some diagnostic logging for stalls.
  34 2013-08-15 00:13:46 Hunger- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  35 2013-08-15 00:16:22 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  36 2013-08-15 00:17:06 <michagogo> super3: You just passed it along :-P
  37 2013-08-15 00:17:29 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
  38 2013-08-15 00:17:44 [Author] has joined
  39 2013-08-15 00:17:46 yubrew_ has joined
  40 2013-08-15 00:18:34 <super3> ha ha. my work here is done.
  41 2013-08-15 00:18:36 * super3 fiies away
  42 2013-08-15 00:20:06 * super3 flies away
  43 2013-08-15 00:20:06 <super3> eh
  44 2013-08-15 00:20:06 <super3> english
  45 2013-08-15 00:20:06 agnostic98 has joined
  46 2013-08-15 00:20:06 btcbtc has joined
  47 2013-08-15 00:20:06 <super3> has there been any buzz about 2-factor auth or payment requests lately?
  48 2013-08-15 00:23:46 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  49 2013-08-15 00:25:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: it says something like "peer X is stalling everything; disconnecting" in the log
  50 2013-08-15 00:26:23 testnode9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  51 2013-08-15 00:27:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: none so far here.
  52 2013-08-15 00:27:47 Hunger- has joined
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  54 2013-08-15 00:31:40 <sipa> well on tor, i expect you to be pretty bandwidth limited in any case
  55 2013-08-15 00:32:00 <sipa> so there would likely be much less speed variation between the peers
  56 2013-08-15 00:32:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: nah, tor is high latency but I've easily pulled >10mbit over tor before.
  57 2013-08-15 00:33:16 <Vinnie_win> http://codepad.org/44iKSWWR Can any genius types help me with line 28?
  58 2013-08-15 00:33:26 <Vinnie_win> ...pretty please with a cherry on top
  59 2013-08-15 00:35:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, 150 KiB/s seems to be a pretty typical limit
  60 2013-08-15 00:35:49 <phantomcircuit> i consistently pull that over hidden services
  61 2013-08-15 00:38:10 <michagogo> Hmm, a question just occured to me. The other day I installed tor, turned on a hidden service, and added it as an externalip in bitcoin.conf (and also discover=1 and tor=127.0.0.1:9050). What exactly allows other tor nodes to connect to me?
  62 2013-08-15 00:38:39 <sipa> michagogo: you're now broadcasting your onion address on the P2P network
  63 2013-08-15 00:38:48 <michagogo> Ahhh
  64 2013-08-15 00:38:54 <sipa> when other tor-capable nodes see it, they may connect to you directly
  65 2013-08-15 00:39:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: right, but you need large bandwidth variations mostly
  66 2013-08-15 00:39:21 <sipa> like a factor 10, for a long time
  67 2013-08-15 00:39:25 <michagogo> (broadcasting in what messages, btw?)
  68 2013-08-15 00:39:29 <sipa> addr
  69 2013-08-15 00:39:40 <sipa> and in version too, iirc
  70 2013-08-15 00:39:51 <sipa> Vinnie_win: no experience with that type of code
  71 2013-08-15 00:40:09 <phantomcircuit> sipa, version is 0.0.0.0
  72 2013-08-15 00:40:20 <sipa> right
  73 2013-08-15 00:40:33 <sipa> it will only announce it in version if the peer is on a compatible network
  74 2013-08-15 00:40:45 <sipa> so if you're already connecting to a hidden service peer
  75 2013-08-15 00:40:47 <phantomcircuit> which actullay makes detecting nodes that are listening on * but think they're behind tor pretty easy
  76 2013-08-15 00:40:49 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
  77 2013-08-15 00:41:23 <Vinnie_win> sipa: well, thanks for having a look-see
  78 2013-08-15 00:41:58 <michagogo> sipa: Versions would only be if I'm connecting over tor, wouldn't it
  79 2013-08-15 00:41:58 <michagogo> ?
  80 2013-08-15 00:42:01 abadr has joined
  81 2013-08-15 00:50:25 <sipa> does anyone have any opinion about #2829? gmaxwell, jgarzik, gavinandresen?
  82 2013-08-15 00:51:21 agnostic98 has joined
  83 2013-08-15 00:55:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm in favor of including it, but I haven't acked because I think the acks should be from people who've also implemented BIP32!
  84 2013-08-15 00:57:13 tekkentux has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
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  87 2013-08-15 00:59:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, did you notice mikes comment?
  88 2013-08-15 01:00:08 <sipa> yes
  89 2013-08-15 01:00:26 <sipa> it seems trivial to me
  90 2013-08-15 01:00:46 <sipa> it's an implementation of a standard algorithm
  91 2013-08-15 01:00:51 <sipa> i didn't invent it
  92 2013-08-15 01:01:51 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  93 2013-08-15 01:03:15 <phantomcircuit> sipa, iirc it's a FIPS standard right?
  94 2013-08-15 01:10:04 Hunger- has joined
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  97 2013-08-15 01:15:41 <dikidera> sipa:many things could seem trivial to you
  98 2013-08-15 01:15:50 <dikidera> ...when you know how to code
  99 2013-08-15 01:16:34 <turboroot> Are there any active projects I missed out and are not on this list? https://gist.github.com/turboroot/6144238
 100 2013-08-15 01:17:02 <turboroot> s/active projects/active Bitcoin projects
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 103 2013-08-15 01:21:13 <lianj> turboroot: bitcoin-ruby
 104 2013-08-15 01:22:12 <sipa> dikidera: it's like you're implementing a calculator, and someone asks you why you use integer addition when the user clicks '+'
 105 2013-08-15 01:22:18 <turboroot> lianj: thanks
 106 2013-08-15 01:24:05 <michagogo> If you're using Ruby, you just call .to_f on the inputs :P
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 114 2013-08-15 01:28:43 <jgarzik> diff 271 on testnet?  grump.
 115 2013-08-15 01:28:54 * jgarzik turns on setgenerate, and goes to put a kid to sleep
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 121 2013-08-15 01:35:53 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I know it's not a major thing, but it'd be nice to see longpolling merged so people can easily solo mine again. It has a test plan since a month ago. I'll see if I can find some more people to run through it, and solo mine on testnet..
 122 2013-08-15 01:36:55 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 124 2013-08-15 01:37:04 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: great. I don't know nuthin about longpolling / getblocktemplate / getwork / etc etc
 125 2013-08-15 01:37:18 Hunger- has joined
 126 2013-08-15 01:39:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'll test, I hadn't seen your testplan sorry.. I know I'd asked you about testing it.
 127 2013-08-15 01:39:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: thanks
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 133 2013-08-15 01:43:56 <warren> Luke-Jr: please have folks test gbt longpolling on p2pool testnet to be sure.
 134 2013-08-15 01:44:28 one_zero has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 135 2013-08-15 01:44:36 <Luke-Jr> warren: p2pool doesn't use longpolling, but I did ask in #p2pool if they can confirm it still works (no reason to think it wouldn't)
 136 2013-08-15 01:44:47 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 137 2013-08-15 01:45:35 <warren> yes, I see no reason why it shouldn't work
 138 2013-08-15 01:46:01 <warren> Luke-Jr: didn't very old p2pool use gbt to submit blocks, but a different block submit method was added later?
 139 2013-08-15 01:46:41 <Luke-Jr> warren: old p2pool used getmemorypool, which was renamed to make GBT
 140 2013-08-15 01:49:41 Hunger- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 141 2013-08-15 01:49:58 <Luke-Jr> other minor pullreqs that I think may have sufficient testing/ACK already: 1583 (prioritisetransaction RPC) and 2241 (sys leveldb)
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 156 2013-08-15 02:09:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: I seem to have managed to get it stuck, switched it to the public network.
 157 2013-08-15 02:10:03 <gmaxwell> oh. hm. not stuck, just really slow.
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 182 2013-08-15 02:47:56 <petertodd> https://www.proofofexistence.com/developers <- they added a developer api... :-/
 183 2013-08-15 02:48:40 <petertodd> so the API gives you a pay address, which you pay some btc too, and then it creates a *second* transaction with their shitty SHA256 spread over two outputs crap
 184 2013-08-15 02:50:48 Application has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 186 2013-08-15 02:54:33 <petertodd> heh, and the service is also broken right now; their file uploader spits out 67dd4d3c5de2007c594536eff42bd3bf7ee16a7d3f950bb43832d6b1353c1863 for every file
 187 2013-08-15 02:55:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: gah, I want to go to a bitcoin monestary where I can pretend awful stuff like that doesn't exist.
 188 2013-08-15 02:56:39 yubrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 189 2013-08-15 02:56:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, you do live in california, I'm sure there's a suitable place local to you
 190 2013-08-15 02:57:07 macboz has joined
 191 2013-08-15 02:57:09 <gmaxwell> also, coinbase is apparently funding some "hosted mining" company, proposing to sell 5TH/s boxes that they run for you.
 192 2013-08-15 02:57:19 <petertodd> lol
 193 2013-08-15 02:57:32 <Cusipzzz> thought that was coinlab
 194 2013-08-15 02:57:45 <gmaxwell> oh indeed.
 195 2013-08-15 02:57:48 <gmaxwell> sorry!
 196 2013-08-15 02:57:51 <gmaxwell> stupid names.
 197 2013-08-15 02:57:51 <petertodd> oh, I talked to peter yesterday about that venture...
 198 2013-08-15 02:58:12 <gmaxwell> fwiw, it was right in my head.
 199 2013-08-15 02:58:17 <gmaxwell> few things are.
 200 2013-08-15 02:58:24 <petertodd> heh
 201 2013-08-15 02:58:53 <petertodd> I'm far from convinced the industrial-scale mining really makes sense in the long run from the perspective of heat dissippation
 202 2013-08-15 02:59:39 <gmaxwell> yea, thats been an argument I've proposed. Waste heat hotspots are no good.
 203 2013-08-15 02:59:53 <gmaxwell> ... is there really no way to encode a sendmany in a bitcoin uri?
 204 2013-08-15 02:59:58 <petertodd> yup, and scaling laws kill you too
 205 2013-08-15 03:04:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: doesn't seem to overlap validation and recieving well.
 206 2013-08-15 03:04:08 Hunger- has joined
 207 2013-08-15 03:09:20 <rethaw> what better way to heat your arcology then a .5 PH/s farm?
 208 2013-08-15 03:16:27 <jgarzik> I want an arcology
 209 2013-08-15 03:16:50 <rethaw> you're well on your way!
 210 2013-08-15 03:17:14 MKCoin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 211 2013-08-15 03:19:48 <rethaw> new hashpower metric: number of swimming pools heated
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 220 2013-08-15 03:27:22 <gmaxwell> rethaw: mining heated my home quite nicely for several winters (summer was another problem…)
 221 2013-08-15 03:27:49 <gmaxwell> maybe mining will inspire some interesting work with high temp electronics.. miners working at 400 deg C would be fantastic.
 222 2013-08-15 03:27:52 Hunger- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 223 2013-08-15 03:27:52 <gmaxwell> :P
 224 2013-08-15 03:30:16 <nsh> heh
 225 2013-08-15 03:30:34 <nsh> i don't think electronics at 400 deg C could ever be particularly fantastic
 226 2013-08-15 03:30:37 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 227 2013-08-15 03:31:34 * nsh wonders about reversible-computing asics
 228 2013-08-15 03:32:07 <nsh> gmaxwell, what would be a main difficulty with making a hashing machine that uses reversible manipulations?
 229 2013-08-15 03:33:16 <nsh> it strikes me that hashing would be especially difficult to do on a reversible substrate
 230 2013-08-15 03:33:29 <nsh> but i'm not sure i can  justify that with like sciencemathswords
 231 2013-08-15 03:33:58 <gmaxwell> nsh: Toffoli is universal. you can happily wire up a sha256 miner out of them. actually getting the power savings is another matter.
 232 2013-08-15 03:34:18 <nsh> hmm
 233 2013-08-15 03:35:39 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
 234 2013-08-15 03:35:56 <petertodd> nsh: actually high-temp capable electronics would revolutionize the industry: cooling something is much easier if your deltaT is bigger
 235 2013-08-15 03:36:13 <nsh> oh, yes that does make sense
 236 2013-08-15 03:36:42 <gmaxwell> plus the waste heat is just more useful, with existing hardware the only real uses for the waste heat is slow enviromental heating for people/plants/animals in cold enviroments.
 237 2013-08-15 03:36:59 <petertodd> nsh: There's been a huge amount of money poured into trying to up the temp limits on electronics; the only reason it hasn't happened is the fundemental physics makes it really hard.
 238 2013-08-15 03:37:30 * nsh thinks
 239 2013-08-15 03:38:01 <petertodd> There's some niche stuff mainly used for downhole applications that IIRC can do up to 200degC, but the lifetime is awful and the cost horrendous. Other than that underhood automotive is the main driver.
 240 2013-08-15 03:38:44 btcbtc has joined
 241 2013-08-15 03:38:47 <nsh> what is it that starts breaking, physically, inside silicons information systems as the temperature rises?
 242 2013-08-15 03:39:28 <nsh> thermal noise?
 243 2013-08-15 03:39:40 <nsh> dopant motility
 244 2013-08-15 03:39:57 <nsh> bandgap jumping
 245 2013-08-15 03:40:09 <gmaxwell> nsh: well that happens, but at high temps semiconductors stop being semi.
 246 2013-08-15 03:40:14 <nsh> hmm
 247 2013-08-15 03:40:35 grau has joined
 248 2013-08-15 03:41:19 <petertodd> Yup. Also even if you manage to keep them being semiconductors, you get issues with thermal stress leading to fatigue failure and similar "engineering" level issues.
 249 2013-08-15 03:42:46 _jps has joined
 250 2013-08-15 03:42:49 * nsh reads http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/13873/why-exactly-do-chips-start-malfunctioning-once-they-overheat
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 285 2013-08-15 05:15:14 <jgarzik> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/08/google-confirms-critical-android-crypto-flaw-used-in-5700-bitcoin-heist/
 286 2013-08-15 05:17:21 <weex> Google didn't even have to pay that bounty.
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 289 2013-08-15 05:18:07 * Graet questions sanity of someone putting that many btc on a phone
 290 2013-08-15 05:21:59 <jgarzik> Linked blog post with more tech details, for the lazy: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2013/08/some-securerandom-thoughts.html
 291 2013-08-15 05:22:16 <Cusipzzz> no thanks to the detectives in here? :/
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 293 2013-08-15 05:22:35 <jgarzik> In a perfect world, Google would reimburse the stolen bitcoins ;p
 294 2013-08-15 05:23:01 <Cusipzzz> to...whom? :)
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 298 2013-08-15 05:29:36 <gmaxwell> Cusipzzz: just sign message with the address they were taken from!!!!
 299 2013-08-15 05:29:39 <gmaxwell> :P
 300 2013-08-15 05:30:42 <Cusipzzz> no, i'm spartacus!
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 358 2013-08-15 06:56:23 <random_cat> i saw som recent noise about improvements in heat recapture via thermionc/semiconductor tech, but i've lost the thread; the upshot was 18% overall efficiancy in recapture
 359 2013-08-15 06:57:11 <random_cat> (dT @ 200C)
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 363 2013-08-15 07:05:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, you need a larger receive buffer for that
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 508 2013-08-15 11:03:18 <rdymac> "bip32 wallet structure for electrum…  it is now necessary to adopt a convention concerning address allocation" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=274182.0
 509 2013-08-15 11:03:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I think the only lack of progress on multiwallet is that CodeShark is waiting for each individual step to get merged before he moves on to the next one :/
 510 2013-08-15 11:06:23 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that, and that he's mostly working on other things :)
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 537 2013-08-15 11:42:14 <ThomasV> bitcoin.it is down :(
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 541 2013-08-15 11:47:39 <Happzz> is there a way to make bitcoin-qt not take like 10 minutes to load every time?
 542 2013-08-15 11:47:54 <sipa> that's really slow
 543 2013-08-15 11:47:57 <sipa> what hardware?
 544 2013-08-15 11:48:07 <Happzz> moo: os: Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate - Service Pack 1 (6.1.7601) up: 7mins 3secs cpu: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 870 @ 2.93GHz (x64) at 2931MHz gfx: NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT 256MB res: x bit Hz ram: 2602/4087.5MB (63.65%) [||||||----] hdd: C:\ 25.23GB/111.69GB D:\ 225.78GB/465.76GB E:\ 148.63GB/931.51GB G:\ 71.54MB/100MB K:\ 687.28GB/1.82TB net:
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 551 2013-08-15 12:01:37 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: why so low specs?
 552 2013-08-15 12:02:17 <Diablo-D3> http://android-developers.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/some-securerandom-thoughts.html
 553 2013-08-15 12:02:25 <Happzz> "so low specs"?
 554 2013-08-15 12:02:27 <Happzz> you serious?
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 562 2013-08-15 12:23:00 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: Windows, nvidia, mere 4 GB RAM
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 564 2013-08-15 12:23:30 <Happzz> Luke-Jr arrogance won't get you anywhere. that's what i could afford.
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 566 2013-08-15 12:23:56 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, don't be mean Luke-Jr
 567 2013-08-15 12:23:59 <SomeoneWeird> >.<
 568 2013-08-15 12:24:31 <sipa> and nonetheless, 10 minutes for statup is ridiculous
 569 2013-08-15 12:24:39 <sipa> do you have a huge wallet?
 570 2013-08-15 12:24:47 <sipa> encrypted hard drive?
 571 2013-08-15 12:24:52 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: cheaper to get better <.<
 572 2013-08-15 12:24:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: even for Windows with low RAM? O.o
 573 2013-08-15 12:25:26 <sipa> it should just read through the block index, which is a few megabytes on disk, and sha256 it
 574 2013-08-15 12:25:36 <sipa> oh, and the rollback check of course
 575 2013-08-15 12:25:37 <sipa> hmm
 576 2013-08-15 12:25:39 <Luke-Jr> and verify the most recent blocks
 577 2013-08-15 12:26:09 <sipa> Happzz: mind running with -logtimestamps, and then sending me the part of debug.log about startup?
 578 2013-08-15 12:26:15 <sipa> i'd like to know what is taking so long
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 580 2013-08-15 12:28:19 <Happzz> of course.
 581 2013-08-15 12:29:50 <Happzz> logtimestamps should be a default btw
 582 2013-08-15 12:30:04 <jgarzik> Satoshi disagrees, for privacy reasons
 583 2013-08-15 12:30:12 <Happzz> sipa regarding huge wallet and encrypted hdd: no and no
 584 2013-08-15 12:30:23 <Happzz> i have like 20 "receive" addresses.
 585 2013-08-15 12:30:27 <jgarzik> but I think that is perhaps irrelevant now, with so many nodes possibly sampling
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 587 2013-08-15 12:31:28 <Happzz> sipa i restarted bitcoin with the logtimestamps. i'll hit you up when it finishes loading.
 588 2013-08-15 12:31:37 <Happzz> i assume it'll take shorter than what it took it after the reboot th
 589 2013-08-15 12:31:41 <Happzz> though*
 590 2013-08-15 12:33:02 <Luke-Jr> then it's other programs slowing it down at reboot..
 591 2013-08-15 12:38:06 <Happzz> sipa you need the log up to the point it starts connecting to nodes, right?
 592 2013-08-15 12:41:37 <Happzz> sipa i pmed you with the log. it took 6 minutes this time.
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 594 2013-08-15 12:51:52 <Zoop_> i'm still waiting for the option to choose where to store the blockchain
 595 2013-08-15 12:52:20 <Zoop_> i won't load bitcoin-qt until then
 596 2013-08-15 12:53:04 <sipa> if storing 10GB of data is that much of a burden to you, you're likely better off running something else
 597 2013-08-15 12:53:50 <Diablo-D3> jesus
 598 2013-08-15 12:53:54 <Diablo-D3> my irc logs get that much every day
 599 2013-08-15 12:53:55 <Diablo-D3> =/
 600 2013-08-15 12:54:17 <Zoop_> storing 10gb in the OS drive is a pain
 601 2013-08-15 12:54:26 <Zoop_> i used to have junctions
 602 2013-08-15 12:54:28 <sipa> then store it elsewhere
 603 2013-08-15 12:54:33 <Zoop_> but they don't work anymore
 604 2013-08-15 12:54:37 <Diablo-D3> Zoop_: my OS drive is a pair of 2TB drives in raid 1.
 605 2013-08-15 12:54:46 <Zoop_> good for you Diablo-D3
 606 2013-08-15 12:54:49 <Diablo-D3> I dont think Ill have problems for a couple more years.
 607 2013-08-15 12:55:00 <Diablo-D3> and those are considered small nowadays, btw
 608 2013-08-15 12:55:11 <sipa> with -datadir (or datadir= in config file) you can change the storage location
 609 2013-08-15 12:55:19 <Zoop_> you do realise bitcoin has a great potential in africa?
 610 2013-08-15 12:55:21 <sipa> 0.9 will have a dialog to choose the location on first startup
 611 2013-08-15 12:55:29 <Zoop_> excellent
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 613 2013-08-15 12:56:24 <Diablo-D3> Zoop_: africa will need reliable communications before that can happen
 614 2013-08-15 12:56:36 <sipa> ...
 615 2013-08-15 12:57:20 <Diablo-D3> I didnt say high bandwidth reliable communications
 616 2013-08-15 12:57:24 <Diablo-D3> just reliable
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 618 2013-08-15 12:57:40 <Zoop_> where is this config file sipa?
 619 2013-08-15 12:57:53 <Diablo-D3> I mean, it could be something as simple as putting a sat in orbit that repeats the chain twice every day
 620 2013-08-15 12:57:57 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory
 621 2013-08-15 12:58:19 <Diablo-D3> and using some sort of bitcoin tx over SMS protocol
 622 2013-08-15 12:58:29 <Diablo-D3> that sends it to someone running a SMS to bitcoin gateway
 623 2013-08-15 12:58:45 <sipa> SMS is 140 7-bit characters or so
 624 2013-08-15 12:58:52 <sipa> not enough for even a standard tx
 625 2013-08-15 12:58:57 <Diablo-D3> sipa: =/
 626 2013-08-15 12:59:06 <Diablo-D3> maybe some sort of app that spams multiple SMS
 627 2013-08-15 12:59:13 <Diablo-D3> a multipart message
 628 2013-08-15 12:59:31 <Cryo> use it as ping data
 629 2013-08-15 12:59:47 <Cryo> for -s txsize :)
 630 2013-08-15 12:59:57 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I mean
 631 2013-08-15 12:59:58 <Diablo-D3> lets face it
 632 2013-08-15 13:00:01 <Diablo-D3> in most of africa
 633 2013-08-15 13:00:08 <Diablo-D3> they have "the internet"
 634 2013-08-15 13:00:16 <Diablo-D3> and by "the internet" I mean an entire nation shares a dialup line
 635 2013-08-15 13:00:33 <Diablo-D3> and the countries that DO have decent internet (ie, egypt) turn it off when theres political unrest
 636 2013-08-15 13:00:45 <Diablo-D3> so we need a communications method they cant turn off
 637 2013-08-15 13:01:18 <Diablo-D3> I mean, I almost like googles idea
 638 2013-08-15 13:01:35 <Diablo-D3> large scale wifi APs dangling from zepplins
 639 2013-08-15 13:01:45 <Diablo-D3> and builds a mesh in the clouds (hurrrrrr)
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 642 2013-08-15 13:02:46 <bmcgee> hey any of you guys using this: https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box
 643 2013-08-15 13:03:35 <bmcgee> I'm finding after the first block is mined the difficulty jumps to 121
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 649 2013-08-15 13:15:46 <marcusw> Diablo-D3: those are pretty easy to turn off with russian missiles, actually
 650 2013-08-15 13:16:05 <Diablo-D3> marcusw: funny you say that
 651 2013-08-15 13:16:15 <Diablo-D3> did you know UPS and Fedex aircraft use anti-missile defenses?
 652 2013-08-15 13:16:26 <marcusw> but russians
 653 2013-08-15 13:16:38 <Diablo-D3> american made anti-missile defenses.
 654 2013-08-15 13:18:39 <tgs3> ups... anti-missile.. whaat?
 655 2013-08-15 13:19:04 <Diablo-D3> tgs3: yup.
 656 2013-08-15 13:19:19 <tgs3> oh 'mericans
 657 2013-08-15 13:19:30 <tgs3> thought its not that stupid, like it doesn't hurt anyone
 658 2013-08-15 13:19:34 <Luke-Jr> tgs3: he still says BFL is a scam too
 659 2013-08-15 13:19:45 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: BFL has yet to deliver units en masse.
 660 2013-08-15 13:19:52 <Luke-Jr> ^ see
 661 2013-08-15 13:20:10 <Diablo-D3> dont forget luke, I know a lot of people who bought into BFL
 662 2013-08-15 13:20:11 <tgs3> Luke-Jr: did BFL delivered? over 10?
 663 2013-08-15 13:20:23 <Diablo-D3> they have yet to get their units, and they were early purchasers.
 664 2013-08-15 13:20:25 <Luke-Jr> tgs3: … far more than 100 by now
 665 2013-08-15 13:20:33 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: prove it.
 666 2013-08-15 13:20:38 <Luke-Jr> probably thousands
 667 2013-08-15 13:20:43 <Diablo-D3> "thousands"
 668 2013-08-15 13:20:43 <Diablo-D3> lol.
 669 2013-08-15 13:21:08 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: how much did they pay you to shill for them, it must have been a lot if you quit being a Christian over it
 670 2013-08-15 13:21:46 <tgs3> Luke-Jr: got any prove?
 671 2013-08-15 13:21:57 <tgs3> lol "being christian over it"
 672 2013-08-15 13:22:08 larrymo has joined
 673 2013-08-15 13:22:19 <Diablo-D3> tgs3: luke claims hes a devout catholic, yet a real devout christian would never lie for profit.
 674 2013-08-15 13:22:40 <bmcgee> this escalated quickly...
 675 2013-08-15 13:22:40 <Luke-Jr> tgs3: besides everyone and their dog receiving them?
 676 2013-08-15 13:23:23 goodbtc has joined
 677 2013-08-15 13:23:50 <Diablo-D3> I dunno man, my dog is still waiting for his.
 678 2013-08-15 13:24:07 * marcusw hasn't heard of anyone getting any...except for a few people that had problems
 679 2013-08-15 13:24:12 <tgs3> bmcgee: lol
 680 2013-08-15 13:24:30 <Diablo-D3> marcusw: a lot of shill accounts on the forum said they got one
 681 2013-08-15 13:24:38 <Diablo-D3> so maybe thats what luke is referring to
 682 2013-08-15 13:24:39 <tgs3> who in this channel has BFL delivered the miner?  who ordered one but didn't got it?
 683 2013-08-15 13:24:42 <Diablo-D3> sock puppetry is bad, mmkay
 684 2013-08-15 13:25:02 <marcusw> https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/
 685 2013-08-15 13:25:02 <Ry4an> tgs3: this sounds like a conversation for #bitcoin
 686 2013-08-15 13:25:11 <goodbtc> i have an order, but no hopes :P
 687 2013-08-15 13:25:14 <Diablo-D3> tgs3: yochdog ordered several early on, and has not gotten them yet
 688 2013-08-15 13:25:24 <tgs3> Ry4an: overall yes, but an testimony from a developer would be more trustworty to me
 689 2013-08-15 13:25:33 <Luke-Jr> tgs3: I've received most of mine.
 690 2013-08-15 13:25:44 <Luke-Jr> I believe jgarzik and gmaxwell have as well.
 691 2013-08-15 13:25:49 <Diablo-D3> tgs3: hes also paid for fpga->asic upgrades for units he owns, and has not gotten them yet either
 692 2013-08-15 13:25:52 <Ry4an> tgs3: the devs are in #bitcoin too, and that's where they prefer to talk about stuff that has nothing to do w/ development.
 693 2013-08-15 13:25:56 <Diablo-D3> so Im not sure why luke says its not a scam
 694 2013-08-15 13:26:17 <sipa> i have two BFL Jalapeno's
 695 2013-08-15 13:26:52 <Graet> the jalepeno i won in a raffle arrived 350days after it was ordered
 696 2013-08-15 13:27:00 <tgs3> Graet: lol
 697 2013-08-15 13:27:08 <Graet> :)
 698 2013-08-15 13:27:09 <sipa> for me it was only 10 months!
 699 2013-08-15 13:27:09 <tgs3> if not a scam then maybe a pyramid
 700 2013-08-15 13:27:20 <tgs3> sipa: why you waited so long with legal action
 701 2013-08-15 13:27:30 <tgs3> or illegal one, like russians
 702 2013-08-15 13:27:34 <sipa> tgs3: why would i take legal action over 300$?
 703 2013-08-15 13:27:42 <Luke-Jr> lol
 704 2013-08-15 13:27:49 TheUni has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 705 2013-08-15 13:28:01 <sipa> i knew they would overpromise when i pre-ordered
 706 2013-08-15 13:28:19 TheUni has joined
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 708 2013-08-15 13:28:38 <Graet> me too, thats why i never ordered, but figured throw a few 0.25btc at a raffle for a bit of fun :P
 709 2013-08-15 13:28:53 <bmcgee> Anyone want to talk about calculating the reward for a block……
 710 2013-08-15 13:29:07 <sipa> ;;genrate 5000
 711 2013-08-15 13:29:08 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 5000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 0.0494886007307 BTC per day and 0.00206202503045 BTC per hour.
 712 2013-08-15 13:29:11 <Luke-Jr> bmcgee: what about it?
 713 2013-08-15 13:29:39 <bmcgee> Luke-Jr: 2 secs, just double checking something
 714 2013-08-15 13:29:52 reneg has joined
 715 2013-08-15 13:31:21 <bmcgee> calculating the reward in satoshis is done like this: ((50 * 100000000) >> (height / 210000)) / 100000000
 716 2013-08-15 13:31:34 <sipa> no, in bitcoin :)
 717 2013-08-15 13:31:34 <bmcgee> think i got this from sipa
 718 2013-08-15 13:31:46 <sipa> in satoshi it's without the /100000000 at the end :p
 719 2013-08-15 13:32:01 <sipa> also, / is an integer division here (to be consistent with the use in height / 210000)
 720 2013-08-15 13:32:02 <bmcgee> ah lol that would explain what i'm seeing
 721 2013-08-15 13:32:43 <bmcgee> when specifying amounts in transactions it's always satoshis?
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 724 2013-08-15 13:33:17 <bmcgee> fees etc as well are all satoshis?
 725 2013-08-15 13:33:32 <sipa> internally, all amounts are always in satoshi's, yes
 726 2013-08-15 13:33:36 <sipa> and integersw
 727 2013-08-15 13:33:49 <sipa> so they're just 64-bit integers
 728 2013-08-15 13:33:51 <Luke-Jr> bmcgee: Bitcoin's low-level protocol only works in satoshis. RPC uses satoshis divided by 1e8
 729 2013-08-15 13:33:57 larrymo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 730 2013-08-15 13:34:06 <bmcgee> ok cool thx i'll give this a whirl and see what blocks it produces
 731 2013-08-15 13:34:29 <bmcgee> is there a util for viewing a local blockchain?
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 734 2013-08-15 13:35:48 <goodbtc> sipa, the protocol is created in such way that after 200 yars all software will be compatible with other zeros added?
 735 2013-08-15 13:35:53 <sipa> no
 736 2013-08-15 13:36:05 <sipa> if we want to add digits, all software has to be updated
 737 2013-08-15 13:36:13 <Luke-Jr> goodbtc: expanding precision requires breaking compatibility
 738 2013-08-15 13:36:34 <goodbtc> i hoped is an easy move
 739 2013-08-15 13:36:41 <sipa> it's not a philosophical change, so it's likely uncontroversial
 740 2013-08-15 13:36:47 <sipa> when it's necessary
 741 2013-08-15 13:36:52 <sipa> but it's not trivial
 742 2013-08-15 13:37:22 <goodbtc> Y2K for btc in 2300, the end of finance world
 743 2013-08-15 13:38:08 <goodbtc> we are able to take preemtive measures now?
 744 2013-08-15 13:38:12 <sipa> why?
 745 2013-08-15 13:38:23 <goodbtc> just because we love people from 2300 :)
 746 2013-08-15 13:38:40 <sipa> i'm sure they'll be much more capable in dealing with their problems than we are
 747 2013-08-15 13:38:48 <sipa> we have no clue what the bitcoin economy will look like
 748 2013-08-15 13:39:00 <sipa> whether it will still exist at all, or be succeeded by something better
 749 2013-08-15 13:39:08 <Luke-Jr> goodbtc: it's nothing like y2k
 750 2013-08-15 13:39:24 <sipa> also, why 2300 specifically?
 751 2013-08-15 13:39:30 <Luke-Jr> things won't just break one day. there will just not be better precision until someone plans it a few years in advance
 752 2013-08-15 13:39:40 <goodbtc> because human mind love round numbers
 753 2013-08-15 13:39:41 <sipa> if you're worried about the block payout being too low, that has nothing to do with the precision
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 756 2013-08-15 13:41:30 <TD> basically it means that some economic opportunities that would have happened, won't, because people won't be able to express prices small enough
 757 2013-08-15 13:41:44 <TD> however if that were to ever happen people would find temporary workarounds and then the process of upgrading everyone would begin
 758 2013-08-15 13:41:46 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 760 2013-08-15 13:41:53 <TD> because bitcoin is a global consensus that should be "easy" as flag days are actually enforceable.
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 763 2013-08-15 13:45:50 <goodbtc> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3F A bitcoin can be divided down to 8 decimal places. Therefore, 0.00000001 BTC is the smallest amount that can be handled in a transaction. If necessary, the protocol and related software can be modified to handle even smaller amounts.
 764 2013-08-15 13:46:16 <goodbtc> When I read this I supposed we are already prepared
 765 2013-08-15 13:46:30 <goodbtc> but not used yet, to not confuse users even further
 766 2013-08-15 13:46:34 rdponticelli has joined
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 768 2013-08-15 13:47:22 <sipa> i find that a stupid statement
 769 2013-08-15 13:47:31 <sipa> of course the software can be adapted to change that
 770 2013-08-15 13:47:37 <sipa> but you can change anything by changing the software
 771 2013-08-15 13:47:49 <sipa> if everyone agrees to upgrade, anything is possible
 772 2013-08-15 13:48:36 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 773 2013-08-15 13:51:03 <realazthat> http://www.scipr-lab.org/
 774 2013-08-15 13:51:08 <realazthat> SCIP website is up
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 784 2013-08-15 14:01:13 <renhei> are there plans to integrate zerocoin in bitcoin?
 785 2013-08-15 14:01:32 i2pRelay has joined
 786 2013-08-15 14:03:10 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
 787 2013-08-15 14:03:19 <sipa> no
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 789 2013-08-15 14:03:44 patcon has joined
 790 2013-08-15 14:03:44 <sipa> as is, zerocoin isn't very usable because of performance and bandwidth requirements, afaik
 791 2013-08-15 14:03:46 sserrano44 has joined
 792 2013-08-15 14:04:00 <renhei> sipa: ok i see
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 796 2013-08-15 14:05:03 <renhei> so devs are waiting for a better version?
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 801 2013-08-15 14:10:38 <c0rw1n> there was a better idea some months ago
 802 2013-08-15 14:11:10 <c0rw1n> can't really remember, maybe you'd find it if you seek through the zerocoin thread
 803 2013-08-15 14:11:35 <TD> it needs more research. also it's a very very complicated technique when there are much simpler techniques available which already aren't used
 804 2013-08-15 14:11:45 <TD> so it'd make more sense to do the simple improvements first and the more complicated ones later
 805 2013-08-15 14:12:03 <sipa> it's the only measure that provides true anonymity i've heard of
 806 2013-08-15 14:12:14 <sipa> but there are many ways to get better privacy without going that far
 807 2013-08-15 14:14:56 reneg has joined
 808 2013-08-15 14:15:33 <TD> depends what you mean by "true anonymity"
 809 2013-08-15 14:16:01 <jgarzik> breaking anonymity is usually about social engineering, side channels, ...
 810 2013-08-15 14:16:25 <c0rw1n> yeah well that can't be defended against, right? That's not what the automatic anon tools fdo
 811 2013-08-15 14:16:46 <c0rw1n> good privacy tools make it so that it's necessary to attack anonymity sideways
 812 2013-08-15 14:16:55 <c0rw1n> because you can't attack the tool
 813 2013-08-15 14:17:16 <sipa> well zerocoin provides (IIRC) grouping of transactions in such a way that it cannot be inferred who did which
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 815 2013-08-15 14:17:59 <c0rw1n> so that's a good tool
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 817 2013-08-15 14:18:20 <c0rw1n> or not, it's huge and unwieldy
 818 2013-08-15 14:18:25 <sipa> i guess chaumian e-banking is also anonymous, but requires a trusted central party (who however does not need to know its clients)
 819 2013-08-15 14:18:34 <c0rw1n> yeah then no
 820 2013-08-15 14:19:05 <c0rw1n> "needs a central point of failure by design" <- yeah then no
 821 2013-08-15 14:19:07 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 822 2013-08-15 14:20:03 <sipa> you can't have everything
 823 2013-08-15 14:20:16 <sipa> scalability, decentralization, anonimity, ...
 824 2013-08-15 14:20:16 <c0rw1n> you can make that central party distributed and participated in by every client
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 828 2013-08-15 14:24:02 <helo> sipa: is that "pick one", or "pick two"?
 829 2013-08-15 14:24:37 <helo> it appears to be the former, with bitcoin choosing decentralization
 830 2013-08-15 14:24:58 <helo> i guess bitcoin is scaleable in its own way
 831 2013-08-15 14:26:35 <c0rw1n> depends how you measure scaleability
 832 2013-08-15 14:28:45 grau has joined
 833 2013-08-15 14:29:02 <TD> i think you can have everything :)
 834 2013-08-15 14:29:04 <TD> it's just not easy
 835 2013-08-15 14:29:21 <c0rw1n> you can do "good enough" in all of them, oh yes
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 837 2013-08-15 14:30:23 <sipa> well you cannot have ultimate scalability (anyone can do as many transactions as they like)
 838 2013-08-15 14:30:35 <sipa> and you cannot have ultimate decentralization (everyone can be sure that nobody is cheating)
 839 2013-08-15 14:30:54 <sipa> i guess you could have ultimate anonimity if you give up the two other ones completely :)
 840 2013-08-15 14:30:55 <c0rw1n> 1. why not? and 2. why not?
 841 2013-08-15 14:31:06 <sipa> 1) requires infinite bandwidth
 842 2013-08-15 14:31:13 <c0rw1n> wait
 843 2013-08-15 14:31:14 <sipa> 2) requires zero-cost processing
 844 2013-08-15 14:31:41 <sipa> by ultimate i don't mean "limited to some reasonable amount"
 845 2013-08-15 14:31:53 <c0rw1n> you can't have infinity tx per second, but you can certtainly have infinity txes eventually
 846 2013-08-15 14:32:04 <c0rw1n> same for decentralization
 847 2013-08-15 14:32:17 <sipa> if you don't have infinite transactions per second, you'll never have an infinite number of transactions
 848 2013-08-15 14:32:25 <c0rw1n> stop wordplay
 849 2013-08-15 14:32:34 <sipa> this is not wordplay, this is math
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 851 2013-08-15 14:32:45 <sipa> the limit is infinity yes, sure, but that's irrelevant
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 853 2013-08-15 14:33:34 <c0rw1n> what's relevant is that the state propagates fast enough to be meaningful
 854 2013-08-15 14:34:09 <sipa> all i'm saying is that there is no way you can have an infinitely-scalable system; it will at some point break down - and that's fine
 855 2013-08-15 14:34:13 <c0rw1n> that's "good enough"
 856 2013-08-15 14:34:26 <marcusw> so make it scale globally
 857 2013-08-15 14:34:29 <sipa> and you can't have an infinitely-decentralized system; it will at some point break down - and that's fine
 858 2013-08-15 14:34:29 <marcusw> and leave it at that
 859 2013-08-15 14:34:43 <sipa> the question is which limits we consider reasonable
 860 2013-08-15 14:35:10 GordonG3kko has joined
 861 2013-08-15 14:35:11 <sipa> so the question is not "can we have 1 or 2 from that list"
 862 2013-08-15 14:35:19 <sipa> it's always about to which extent you want them
 863 2013-08-15 14:35:43 <sipa> they're not booleans
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 869 2013-08-15 14:44:56 <jgarzik> hrm
 870 2013-08-15 14:45:28 <jgarzik> does RPC provide any way to (a) input a raw transaction, and (b) output a determination if all inputs are unspent ?
 871 2013-08-15 14:45:35 <petertodd> no
 872 2013-08-15 14:45:46 <jgarzik> I suppose I could iterate through 'gettxout', but that's annoying
 873 2013-08-15 14:45:55 <petertodd> we should have something like "validatetx" that skips actualy adding a tx to the mempool
 874 2013-08-15 14:46:14 <michagogo> jgarzik: You could also patch bitcoind and remove the "send" code from sendrawtransaction
 875 2013-08-15 14:46:16 <jgarzik> well signrawtransaction does some validation
 876 2013-08-15 14:46:24 <jgarzik> just not spent-ness
 877 2013-08-15 14:46:25 <petertodd> should come in versions that use the mempool logic, as well as the logic that would determine if a transaction were valid if it were in a block
 878 2013-08-15 14:46:39 <jgarzik> petertodd, you can pass a fully signed tx to signrawtransaction, for validation purposes
 879 2013-08-15 14:47:04 <jgarzik> I agree that's a bit esoteric, which validatetx would be more clean
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 881 2013-08-15 14:48:22 <sipa> jgarzik: gettxout can tell you whether an input is available
 882 2013-08-15 14:48:27 <petertodd> yeah, the functionality needs to be separated, and it really should go through the same code as is used for tx validation, not by something we've duplicated
 883 2013-08-15 14:48:35 <sipa> ah
 884 2013-08-15 14:49:03 <michagogo> I think at one point I wanted a way to mine a given transaction into a testnet block without the rest of testnet seeing it
 885 2013-08-15 14:49:18 <petertodd> one issue is that signrawtransaction can't tell you if a transaction is invalid as-is - it'll sign it first after all!
 886 2013-08-15 14:49:25 <michagogo> I just cut out a bit of the code
 887 2013-08-15 14:49:34 <michagogo> petertodd: You can run it on a wallet with no privkeys
 888 2013-08-15 14:49:45 <michagogo> Then it won't sign unless you also specify a key in the command
 889 2013-08-15 14:50:06 <petertodd> michagogo: right, good point, you can tell give it an empty privkey list
 890 2013-08-15 14:50:17 <michagogo> Oh, right
 891 2013-08-15 14:50:20 <michagogo> Forgot about that part
 892 2013-08-15 14:50:55 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 893 2013-08-15 14:51:05 <petertodd> Of course, in any other project you'd just refactor some code to create ValidateTransaction()... here that could result in a consensus bug. :(
 894 2013-08-15 14:51:18 <michagogo> Consensus bug?
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 900 2013-08-15 14:52:28 <petertodd> michagogo: read up on consensus on the wiki or something if you don't know what I mean, important topic
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 902 2013-08-15 14:53:24 <michagogo> "There is currently no text in this page."
 903 2013-08-15 14:53:36 <petertodd> sheesh...
 904 2013-08-15 14:53:59 ThomasV has joined
 905 2013-08-15 14:54:05 <petertodd> it's the most important thing about bitcoin :/
 906 2013-08-15 14:54:28 <michagogo> Well, write https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Consensus then :-P
 907 2013-08-15 14:54:42 cris has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 908 2013-08-15 14:55:09 <petertodd> michagogo: busy :) anyway, gotta go, you write it! worst that can happen is you'll just force one of us to fix it :)
 909 2013-08-15 14:55:26 <michagogo> petertodd: But what's the problem with adding a command that runs the same checks as sendrawtransaction?
 910 2013-08-15 14:55:47 <michagogo> But just doesn't actually send?
 911 2013-08-15 14:56:00 Diapolis has joined
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 913 2013-08-15 14:56:05 <petertodd> try doing that yourself, you'll see
 914 2013-08-15 14:56:06 <petertodd> later
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 916 2013-08-15 14:56:09 <michagogo> ...
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 918 2013-08-15 14:58:25 <graingert> :3
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 951 2013-08-15 15:48:04 <jgarzik> sipa, any chance for a user-visible no-wallet mode in 0.9?  The coding is easy, but never could settle on how it should behave.  You seemed meh over -nowallet and ifdefs.
 952 2013-08-15 15:50:12 <michagogo> no-wallet mode?
 953 2013-08-15 15:50:18 <michagogo> So just a verify/relay node?
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 957 2013-08-15 15:58:38 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Why bother?
 958 2013-08-15 16:02:49 <Cusipzzz> no wallet = no risk of theft. the secure bitcoin platform!
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 962 2013-08-15 16:04:34 <jouke> Cusipzzz: no bitcoins in wallet = no risk of theft as well?
 963 2013-08-15 16:04:59 <gmaxwell> (I'm actually curious, not just being snarky)
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 987 2013-08-15 16:50:49 <bmcgee> hey is there a simple way of viewing a block locally, say if you're running a private testnet?
 988 2013-08-15 16:51:07 <gmaxwell> getblock <blockhash>
 989 2013-08-15 16:51:29 <bmcgee> i feel really stupid right now...
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 994 2013-08-15 16:56:34 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, to start hammering out what a no-wallet-code, public blockchain-only bitcoind would look like
 995 2013-08-15 16:56:46 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, figure out which RPCs to keep, which to ditch.
 996 2013-08-15 16:57:48 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, looking forward to the day when wallet/GUI/account system are separate from public blockchain/P2P engine
 997 2013-08-15 16:57:53 <gmaxwell> Okay, fair enough.
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 999 2013-08-15 16:59:56 <jgarzik> Call it "router mode"
1000 2013-08-15 17:00:12 <jgarzik> or router build, if ifdefs are employed
1001 2013-08-15 17:00:55 <jouke> But would it really give a performance boost?
1002 2013-08-15 17:01:45 reneg has joined
1003 2013-08-15 17:01:54 <jgarzik> no
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1008 2013-08-15 17:03:41 <jgarzik> jouke, One possible, months-away goal is to separate wallet/GUI and blockchain engines into completely separate processes.
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1012 2013-08-15 17:04:02 <jgarzik> jouke, the wallet could become an SPV client quite easily, once sipa's headers-first work is complete
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1026 2013-08-15 17:28:06 <jgarzik> It works!
1027 2013-08-15 17:28:39 <jgarzik> pwalletMain==NULL works; bitcoind continues to process the blockchain and relays blocks and TXs as normal
1028 2013-08-15 17:30:00 <sipa> what happens if you turn on mining? :p
1029 2013-08-15 17:30:31 <nsh> BIG BADDABOOM!
1030 2013-08-15 17:30:49 <michagogo> or call validateaddress?
1031 2013-08-15 17:30:53 <jgarzik> sipa, mining is disabled
1032 2013-08-15 17:31:03 <michagogo> Or call any of the wallet-like functions?
1033 2013-08-15 17:31:09 <jgarzik> michagogo, those are disabled
1034 2013-08-15 17:31:09 <goodbtc> multipass
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1036 2013-08-15 17:31:36 <michagogo> Will it still signrawtransaction if you give it the keys?
1037 2013-08-15 17:31:49 <jgarzik> michagogo, yes
1038 2013-08-15 17:32:22 <Cusipzzz> pretty cool
1039 2013-08-15 17:32:44 <michagogo> I don't know if I've ever had this many connections
1040 2013-08-15 17:32:49 <michagogo> bitcoin-qt
1041 2013-08-15 17:32:55 <michagogo> bitcoin-qt's corner icon says I have 34
1042 2013-08-15 17:33:10 <michagogo> BTW, is there any value to running a testnet node with tor?
1043 2013-08-15 17:33:49 <michagogo> (I mean, it's just a matter of adding one HiddenServicePort line in torrc, but I suspect there may not be any reason to)
1044 2013-08-15 17:34:18 <jgarzik> Pull req with working no-wallet code: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2901
1045 2013-08-15 17:34:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no reason mining would care about wallet
1046 2013-08-15 17:34:36 <jgarzik> It's surprisingly little code -- though admittedly some RPCs still need going-over with a fine-toothed comb
1047 2013-08-15 17:34:56 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, current implementation wants an address for coinbase
1048 2013-08-15 17:35:05 <jgarzik> even for GBT
1049 2013-08-15 17:35:08 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1050 2013-08-15 17:35:21 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: then I'll propose we remove getwork and fix that :p
1051 2013-08-15 17:35:25 <petertodd> jgarzik: obviously the thing to do is put a anyone-can-spend output by default to show your love for bitcoin :P
1052 2013-08-15 17:35:26 <jgarzik> getwork clearly needs it
1053 2013-08-15 17:35:35 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, my pull req disables getwork completely
1054 2013-08-15 17:35:42 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, and GBT would need minor changes
1055 2013-08-15 17:35:54 <jgarzik> petertodd, hah
1056 2013-08-15 17:36:57 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it fetches an address :)
1057 2013-08-15 17:37:08 Someguy123 has joined
1058 2013-08-15 17:37:35 <jgarzik> our multi-wallet dispatch functions make pwalletMain==NULL easier
1059 2013-08-15 17:38:16 fishfish has joined
1060 2013-08-15 17:39:04 <michagogo> "NOT FOR MERGING."
1061 2013-08-15 17:39:04 <michagogo> Isn't that, by definition, what a pull request is?
1062 2013-08-15 17:39:51 <sipa> it's also a convenient way to give a patch exposure :)
1063 2013-08-15 17:39:57 <jgarzik> sometimes github is just a useful patch viewing tool
1064 2013-08-15 17:40:02 <jgarzik> exactly
1065 2013-08-15 17:40:09 <sipa> if only it had side-by-side diff view :(
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1068 2013-08-15 17:41:41 <michagogo> What does the software do behind the scenes when gen=1?
1069 2013-08-15 17:41:59 <michagogo> Does it generate and try to solve a getwork, or what?
1070 2013-08-15 17:42:21 <sipa> no, it doesn't use getwork
1071 2013-08-15 17:42:28 <sipa> it's more low level
1072 2013-08-15 17:42:38 <michagogo> I see
1073 2013-08-15 17:42:52 <jgarzik> BTW, I was reminded of HTTP REST + GBT:  it would be nice if a block template were returned simply get "GET /block/next"  HTTP returns a binary serialized block, template header + all transactions.  That works just fine in no-wallet situations.
1074 2013-08-15 17:42:54 phillsphinest has quit (Quit: Bye)
1075 2013-08-15 17:42:56 <handle> getwork is used to transfer a "work" object from bitcoind (or -qt) to a miner
1076 2013-08-15 17:42:58 <jgarzik> Miner modifies to suit.
1077 2013-08-15 17:43:07 <handle> when gen=1, it's bitcoind that's "generating"
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1079 2013-08-15 17:44:13 <jgarzik> michagogo, gen=1 uses the wallet + internal CPU miner
1080 2013-08-15 17:45:07 <michagogo> Ah, I see -- so this patch adds a new parameter to the definitions for the RPC commands, "reqWallet"
1081 2013-08-15 17:45:54 <michagogo> I guess validate address always returns false for ismine?
1082 2013-08-15 17:46:13 <jgarzik> it's a bit sloppy -- some of the RPCs need to test !pwalletMain and alter behavior accordingly
1083 2013-08-15 17:46:30 <michagogo> Why does verifymessage need a wallet?
1084 2013-08-15 17:46:39 <jgarzik> this first test just proves that pwalletMain==NULL actually functions as a node on the network
1085 2013-08-15 17:46:59 <jgarzik> michagogo, dude, I set true/false by holding down a macro key on my keyboard, don't read too much into it ;p
1086 2013-08-15 17:47:08 <michagogo> A macro key?
1087 2013-08-15 17:47:30 phillsphinest has joined
1088 2013-08-15 17:47:30 <jgarzik> My vi binds <Alt-1> to whatever macro is recorded into buffer 'a'
1089 2013-08-15 17:47:37 Someguy123 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1090 2013-08-15 17:47:46 <jgarzik> easy way to modify a lot of similar lines at once
1091 2013-08-15 17:47:57 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1092 2013-08-15 17:48:06 <michagogo> Looking over the list, it mostly seems fine
1093 2013-08-15 17:48:16 <michagogo> except for +    { "verifymessage",          &verifymessage,          false,     false,      true },
1094 2013-08-15 17:48:47 <jgarzik> other examples:  getmininginfo and getinfo report some things are that OK for no-wallet, but others must be excised
1095 2013-08-15 17:48:49 c0rw1n has joined
1096 2013-08-15 17:48:56 <jgarzik> GBT needs minor tweaking
1097 2013-08-15 17:49:13 <jgarzik> signrawtransaction obviously wants updating
1098 2013-08-15 17:49:47 <michagogo> Yeah, there's plenty to tweak
1099 2013-08-15 17:49:54 <jgarzik> but overall...  minimal changes in the grand scheme of things
1100 2013-08-15 17:50:23 <michagogo> It's just that this one line is just wrong, unless for some reason I don't understand verifying a signature actually does require a wallet.
1101 2013-08-15 17:50:32 <michagogo> Brb
1102 2013-08-15 17:50:38 <jgarzik> let me look
1103 2013-08-15 17:51:59 <jgarzik> michagogo, yes, verifymessage works just fine without a wallet
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1107 2013-08-15 17:57:45 <jgarzik> luke-jr:
1108 2013-08-15 17:57:49 <jgarzik> pblocktemplate = CreateNewBlock(*pMiningKey);
1109 2013-08-15 17:58:01 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, GBT does that.  pMiningKey is from local wallet.
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1112 2013-08-15 18:03:40 <michagogo> jgarzik: that's what I thought. So that PR should be amended to allow it to work without one.
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1115 2013-08-15 18:07:38 <jgarzik> michagogo, pushed out :)
1116 2013-08-15 18:07:53 <michagogo> Where in the code is the `help` RPC command handled?
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1118 2013-08-15 18:08:05 <michagogo> There's something I'm interested in checking
1119 2013-08-15 18:12:17 <jgarzik> michagogo, bitcoinrpc.cpp
1120 2013-08-15 18:14:44 MobPhone has joined
1121 2013-08-15 18:15:36 <michagogo> Hmm, is github down?
1122 2013-08-15 18:15:40 <michagogo> It's timing out for me
1123 2013-08-15 18:15:56 <marcusw> more or less, yes
1124 2013-08-15 18:20:31 <petertodd> github is ok for me
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1135 2013-08-15 18:36:06 <turboroot> michagogo: github was being ddosed
1136 2013-08-15 18:36:52 <petertodd> turboroot: anyone know what the motive is? seems to be happening a lot
1137 2013-08-15 18:37:35 <Ry4an> usually it's extortion, but github seems to savvy to pay
1138 2013-08-15 18:37:41 <Ry4an> +o
1139 2013-08-15 18:38:16 <turboroot> extortion in bitcoins, maybe
1140 2013-08-15 18:38:49 <turboroot> petertodd: i don't know, but I like to think botnet owners do it for the "lulz"
1141 2013-08-15 18:38:55 mappum has joined
1142 2013-08-15 18:41:09 <petertodd> turboroot: could very well be a sales tactic: "My botnet strong! Look! github go down! You rent botnet? 1 million"
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1145 2013-08-15 18:41:49 <super3> lol. probably best to use that botnet for cpu mining
1146 2013-08-15 18:41:51 <marcusw> *meeryung
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1148 2013-08-15 18:42:25 <super3> finally about to submit my pull request: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2902
1149 2013-08-15 18:42:33 reneg has joined
1150 2013-08-15 18:42:46 <turboroot> today is attack {freenode/github} day!
1151 2013-08-15 18:43:00 <petertodd> super3: about to? I think you just did :)
1152 2013-08-15 18:43:24 <petertodd> turboroot: "Please attack Bitcoin! We're important too!"
1153 2013-08-15 18:43:28 <super3> able*
1154 2013-08-15 18:43:46 <marcusw> "bitcoin ddos'd, nothing happens"
1155 2013-08-15 18:44:01 <super3> ha ha. network it too big now. espically with asics
1156 2013-08-15 18:44:07 <super3> is*
1157 2013-08-15 18:44:11 <gmaxwell> super3: if only that were true.
1158 2013-08-15 18:44:23 <super3> meanwhile on the other hand terracoin is getting its ass handed to it big time
1159 2013-08-15 18:44:34 <gmaxwell> In actuality bitcoin itself would be rather easy to DOS, lots of it would stay up, but lots could easily be taken down.
1160 2013-08-15 18:44:48 <c0rw1n> what are the points of failure?
1161 2013-08-15 18:44:58 <super3> i mean you really would just have to ddos the major exchanges
1162 2013-08-15 18:45:16 <super3> as well as the places where people usally spend their coins
1163 2013-08-15 18:46:00 <c0rw1n> that's still a lot of places to simultaneously ddos and keep ddosed
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1165 2013-08-15 18:46:37 <super3> true. which is why a rolling ddos would work better
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1167 2013-08-15 18:47:19 <marcusw> no no, forget those, what about the network?
1168 2013-08-15 18:47:27 <marcusw> one could simply kill the irc net, right?
1169 2013-08-15 18:47:29 <petertodd> c0rw1n: It's really easy: there are ~5000 nodes on the network, and all you have to do is fill up their maximum incoming connections slots.
1170 2013-08-15 18:47:45 <petertodd> marcusw: bitcoin doesn't use IRC anymore
1171 2013-08-15 18:47:48 <c0rw1n> what 5k nodes that's all?
1172 2013-08-15 18:47:58 <marcusw> haha, blockchain.info already takes up one of them
1173 2013-08-15 18:48:15 <petertodd> c0rw1n: yup, 5k nodes that listen to incoming connections and are reasonably stable
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1179 2013-08-15 18:50:31 <c0rw1n> is there a way to do something about the probably orders of magnitude more nodes that are behind NATs and bullshit connections?
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1181 2013-08-15 18:51:19 <petertodd> c0rw1n: we already support UPNP to punch holes in NAT firewalls, not that much you can do beyond that
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1183 2013-08-15 18:51:44 <marcusw> everyone just wait for ipv6
1184 2013-08-15 18:51:50 <marcusw> come back in 10 years and everything will work
1185 2013-08-15 18:52:08 Krellan_ has joined
1186 2013-08-15 18:52:19 patcon_ has joined
1187 2013-08-15 18:52:21 <petertodd> heh, good luck... I predict IPv6 will result in ISP's implementing stateful firewalls for incoming connections for the "safety" of their customers...
1188 2013-08-15 18:52:30 patcon has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1189 2013-08-15 18:52:39 <petertodd> though I agree it will help
1190 2013-08-15 18:53:03 <marcusw> For Your Protection
1191 2013-08-15 18:53:32 JZavala has quit ()
1192 2013-08-15 18:53:39 <petertodd> note how even Google Fiber forbids running servers in the EULA
1193 2013-08-15 18:53:48 <marcusw> every ISP does that
1194 2013-08-15 18:54:03 <petertodd> nope, mine doesn't (teksavvy canada)
1195 2013-08-15 18:54:20 <marcusw> blocking port 25 is reverse mafia protection money
1196 2013-08-15 18:54:20 sserrano44 has joined
1197 2013-08-15 18:54:26 FabianB_ is now known as FabianB
1198 2013-08-15 18:54:33 <marcusw> "we'll protect you from spam unless you pay us to upgrade to business class"
1199 2013-08-15 18:54:52 <petertodd> marcusw: Some ISP's are actually nice enough to only block outgoing port 25, incoming still works
1200 2013-08-15 18:54:55 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1202 2013-08-15 18:56:08 <marcusw> petertodd: not mine
1203 2013-08-15 18:56:10 <marcusw> :(
1204 2013-08-15 18:56:16 <marcusw> they block incoming port 80 actually
1205 2013-08-15 18:56:20 <marcusw> "to protect from spam"
1206 2013-08-15 18:56:25 <marcusw> lol idiots
1207 2013-08-15 18:56:38 <Diapolo> e-mail providers should encourage use of secure smtp anyway so 587 is the one to block ^^
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1217 2013-08-15 19:04:30 <michagogo> super3: I made a few line comments in your PR
1218 2013-08-15 19:04:47 <super3> michagogo, thanks! i replied.
1219 2013-08-15 19:05:00 <super3> haven't got feedback this fast ever
1220 2013-08-15 19:05:55 <michagogo> Hmm, I guess a few examples on usage for some of the more-used flags could be good
1221 2013-08-15 19:06:15 <michagogo> It's just another piece of text that may eventually be outdated, is all
1222 2013-08-15 19:06:22 <petertodd> super3: You familiar with the term bikeshedding? :P
1223 2013-08-15 19:06:42 <michagogo> super3: And, see the 4 specific lines I commented on in the commit
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1226 2013-08-15 19:08:51 <super3> petertodd, wikipedia brought be up to speed
1227 2013-08-15 19:08:58 <super3> me*
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1229 2013-08-15 19:16:01 <petertodd> FWIW killerstorm of inputs.io just told me the past 1.5 months have seen 44k BTC were transferred on the blockchain and 38k BTC transfereed off-chain, that's a lot of off-chain transactions
1230 2013-08-15 19:18:13 cads has joined
1231 2013-08-15 19:20:01 <Ry4an> petertodd: how do they count off blockchain transactions?
1232 2013-08-15 19:20:17 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1233 2013-08-15 19:20:47 <petertodd> Ry4an: probably just by adding them up in their system?
1234 2013-08-15 19:21:19 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1235 2013-08-15 19:21:51 <marcusw> petertodd: so that's 38k on just their site, not including SR or other account-based sites?
1236 2013-08-15 19:21:57 <Ry4an> ah, I didn't understand they did transactions.  I was thinking they were a reporting site.
1237 2013-08-15 19:21:58 rdymac has joined
1238 2013-08-15 19:22:05 yubrew has joined
1239 2013-08-15 19:24:01 <marcusw> I don't know whether they do or not
1240 2013-08-15 19:24:14 <marcusw> but if they have numbers, I assume they do
1241 2013-08-15 19:25:34 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=274344.0
1242 2013-08-15 19:25:50 _ingsoc has joined
1243 2013-08-15 19:26:03 <jgarzik> I question that this is an "important announcement", especially when forum moderators did not consider the house/senate news important
1244 2013-08-15 19:26:04 <jgarzik> but whatever
1245 2013-08-15 19:26:24 <jgarzik> [ANN] Inputs.io transferred over 82,000 BTC
1246 2013-08-15 19:26:51 <petertodd> doesn't TradeFortress get to post there by virtue of being a VIP?
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1252 2013-08-15 19:34:56 <K1773R> why does bitcoind save txs into the mempool which are below the mintxfee setting?
1253 2013-08-15 19:37:16 cris has quit ()
1254 2013-08-15 19:37:26 <Goonie> saivann_: ping
1255 2013-08-15 19:38:57 nomailing has joined
1256 2013-08-15 19:41:35 <michagogo> K1773R: In some cases transactions can be made with no fee
1257 2013-08-15 19:41:58 <michagogo> Those cases are explained in the wiki's article about transaction fees
1258 2013-08-15 19:42:21 <michagogo> jgarzik: I'm thinking it may be good to mark disabled commands in the output of help somehow
1259 2013-08-15 19:43:09 <K1773R> michagogo: so mintxfee dosnt apply for all txs? sucks :S
1260 2013-08-15 19:45:17 <michagogo> K1773R: A transaction doesn't need a fee if: a) it's smaller than 10 kB, b) all outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger, and c) sum(input_value_in_base_units * input_age)/size_in_bytes is greatet than 57,600,000
1261 2013-08-15 19:45:42 <K1773R> michagogo: i know that rule, but i wonder why it bypasses the mintxfee option
1262 2013-08-15 19:45:56 <michagogo> ...because there *is* no required tx fee
1263 2013-08-15 19:46:13 <michagogo> mintxfee is for transactions that require fees
1264 2013-08-15 19:46:18 <K1773R> michagogo: ACK
1265 2013-08-15 19:46:30 <K1773R> i thougd it applys to all txs
1266 2013-08-15 19:46:42 <michagogo> If you don't like that, feel free to patch the source and build your own binary
1267 2013-08-15 19:46:56 <K1773R> sure, il have to ;)
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1270 2013-08-15 19:48:52 <K1773R> something funny about it, if you set mintxfee to 0.1 for example, GBT only spits out the tx of 0.1 or above, so saving the tx in the mempool is kinda a waste
1271 2013-08-15 19:48:56 Coincidental has joined
1272 2013-08-15 19:49:02 <K1773R> well, on a miners view "a waste"
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1277 2013-08-15 19:50:42 <saivann> Goonie: pong
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1280 2013-08-15 19:51:37 <Goonie> saivann: Hi, I wonder if we need a "trust required" warning for the clients page for apps that don't follow the zero-trust-model.
1281 2013-08-15 19:52:51 <Goonie> saivann: Some apps like blockchain.info, Bitcoin Spinner (I think) and Mycelium require trust in a propriety server (black box, no source availble)
1282 2013-08-15 19:53:24 <Goonie> saivann: So it's very similar to the web wallets.
1283 2013-08-15 19:53:42 <saivann> Goonie: What kind of attacks does a remote storage of the block-chain could allow and are they really a concern in your opinion?
1284 2013-08-15 19:54:19 bmcgee has quit (Client Quit)
1285 2013-08-15 19:54:53 <saivann> Blockchain.info (and hybrid web wallets) already have a warning
1286 2013-08-15 19:55:03 <Goonie> saivann: Faking receiving tx for example, or blocking transactions or they could simply go out of service.
1287 2013-08-15 19:55:47 <Goonie> saivann: Yes I know, but there are wallets that have the same trust model but are not webapps
1288 2013-08-15 19:56:10 wboy has joined
1289 2013-08-15 19:56:15 Diapolis has joined
1290 2013-08-15 19:56:41 <saivann> As long as the user can backup their private keys, that seemed reasonable to me. I was concerned however about the risk that the developer of an app on Android can issue updates very quickly and thus can be considered like a central point of failure
1291 2013-08-15 19:57:27 <saivann> Mmh, the biggest concern so far about web wallets is not that they can fake a transaction, but that they can easily steal or lose funds.
1292 2013-08-15 19:58:05 <saivann> That is a delicate subject of course
1293 2013-08-15 19:58:42 <marcusw> wasn't there a web wallet that actually did that a few months/years ago?
1294 2013-08-15 19:59:05 ahmedbodi has joined
1295 2013-08-15 19:59:28 <Goonie> saivann: Right, you always need to trust the developer of the app, be that webapp or native app. But that's very every wallet, including bitcoin-qt.
1296 2013-08-15 19:59:47 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1297 2013-08-15 19:59:51 <Goonie> saivann: The nice thing about Bitcoin is that beyond that, you don't need to trust anyone.
1298 2013-08-15 19:59:59 RazielZ has joined
1299 2013-08-15 20:00:05 <saivann> Bitcoin-Qt and software wallets in general don't have an efficient update mecanism for that reason
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1301 2013-08-15 20:00:49 <Goonie> saivann: Ok I see what you mean. Yes that's a concern. It can also be a plus like with the recent RNG issues.
1302 2013-08-15 20:00:58 <saivann> Absolutely
1303 2013-08-15 20:01:15 <saivann> I am uncertain about what is best, but that is a legitimate question
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1307 2013-08-15 20:01:32 <ahmedbodi> hey guys
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1309 2013-08-15 20:03:40 <Goonie> saivann: In an ideal world, everyone audits the source of the apps he likes to use (or trusts a friend to do that) and be safe. But only apps that follow the zero-trust model allow that.
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1312 2013-08-15 20:04:31 <Goonie> saivann: Because if your app depends on a remote server you inherit security from there. (Especially if the remote server is closed source.)
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1319 2013-08-15 20:06:57 <saivann> Goonie: I am actually trying to figure how a central server storing the block chain could succesfully cause anything that could be of any strong severity. In the event that they only block certain transactions or fake receiving transactions, the user can switch to a different app without loosing any funds. Unless I'm missing something, at a first glance that sounds like this doesn't need to be reported as a red bold warning.
1320 2013-08-15 20:08:15 <Goonie> saivann: Well for one, fake a tx so that you hand over the car you just sold. You'll find out later the tx was fake.
1321 2013-08-15 20:09:10 <Goonie> saivann: Also, if the server goes out of service and your app isn't updated, you effectively lose your private keys. Of course, a backup prevents that.
1322 2013-08-15 20:09:29 ahmedbodi has joined
1323 2013-08-15 20:10:00 <Goonie> saivann: If you can't reach the server you probably can't see your balance, send or receive coins (depends on the implementation, but still its an issue).
1324 2013-08-15 20:10:12 <saivann> The last case scenario applies to hybrid wallets that indeed have a warning. But to my knowledge, this doesn't apply to mycelium and electrum, right?
1325 2013-08-15 20:10:35 <Goonie> which scenario?
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1328 2013-08-15 20:10:51 <saivann> Losing private keys when the central server goes out of service
1329 2013-08-15 20:11:16 <jgarzik> OK, disable-wallet mode appears to be working
1330 2013-08-15 20:11:17 <Goonie> electrum allows you to set up your own server because that's open source, right.
1331 2013-08-15 20:11:20 <ahmedbodi> hey guys
1332 2013-08-15 20:11:22 <ahmedbodi> would this be the best place to ask about getting stratum for setting up a pool
1333 2013-08-15 20:11:28 <Goonie> Mycelium is closed source however (server side)
1334 2013-08-15 20:11:28 <jgarzik> reviewed all RPCs, go/no-go for launch
1335 2013-08-15 20:11:31 <michagogo> ahmedbodi: #bitcoin-mining
1336 2013-08-15 20:11:52 <ahmedbodi> for actual setting up a pool right^
1337 2013-08-15 20:12:29 <marcusw> ahmedbodi: in-ground or above-ground?
1338 2013-08-15 20:12:38 <saivann> Mmh
1339 2013-08-15 20:12:55 <ahmedbodi> aboce ground :P
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1341 2013-08-15 20:14:13 <saivann> Goonie: Perhaps that we should have a "orange" (middle severity) warning for closed source servers/wallets? The current "web wallet" warning clearly is not appropriate for this specific case.
1342 2013-08-15 20:14:52 <Goonie> saivann: Yes, that'll be appropriate I think.
1343 2013-08-15 20:15:01 <saivann> Goonie: Also concretely, I suppose that most people are using Electrum central server and not their own, even though it is a very good practice to allow users to build their own servers by disclosing the source code.
1344 2013-08-15 20:15:32 <Goonie> saivann: Yes, and at least they can switch if they want to, later.
1345 2013-08-15 20:16:08 anarchy5 has joined
1346 2013-08-15 20:17:10 <saivann> Goonie: I'll look to write something and make a pull request probably later today.
1347 2013-08-15 20:17:28 <Goonie> saivann: cool
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1362 2013-08-15 20:37:45 <gmaxwell> saivann: a centeral server giving you the blockchain can conduct theft against someone who will take an irreversable action based on payments bounded only by the actions they'll take.
1363 2013-08-15 20:38:06 <gmaxwell> saivann: e.g. you use my server, I buy a car from you, now I give you fake payments.
1364 2013-08-15 20:38:37 <gmaxwell> If the nodes don't do SPV validation of tx inputs, I could also lie to you about the value of real payments to you, causing you to convert all your coins to fees.
1365 2013-08-15 20:39:21 <gmaxwell> neither of these are just DOS attacks.
1366 2013-08-15 20:39:58 <gmaxwell> Existing webwallets have the same risks, plus potentially being able to replace the client software.
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1371 2013-08-15 20:47:32 <jgarzik> Alas, disable-wallet mode saves next to no memory (but then, that was not its goal).  It saves a little.
1372 2013-08-15 20:48:24 ie6 has joined
1373 2013-08-15 20:49:43 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hm. are you still loading BDB?
1374 2013-08-15 20:49:50 <gmaxwell> IIRC there is at least a few megabytes lost there.
1375 2013-08-15 20:54:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, probably yes; good point
1376 2013-08-15 20:54:46 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I think the BDB env init is done pre-main(), in C++ constructor land
1377 2013-08-15 20:54:55 * jgarzik goes to check
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1379 2013-08-15 20:56:31 <gmaxwell> other than loading the wallet itself (which is only a lot for bloated wallets) and bdb the wallet code uses very little memory.
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1389 2013-08-15 21:01:54 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, tested and pushed out that change to the branch
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1392 2013-08-15 21:03:52 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, heh, that shaved almost 40MB off my startup RSS
1393 2013-08-15 21:04:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: good, yea, not shocked there.
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1399 2013-08-15 21:08:20 <michagogo> Hmm
1400 2013-08-15 21:08:33 <michagogo> The help entry for listsinceblock is a bit unclear
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1407 2013-08-15 21:23:41 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2903 fixes it
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1416 2013-08-15 21:35:07 <aceat64> anyone else have bitcoin-qt adding "-000" to the end of the txid when you click on "Copy transaction id"?
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1418 2013-08-15 21:35:47 <michagogo> aceat64: I believe that's which vout it is
1419 2013-08-15 21:37:32 <aceat64> michagogo: why would we want to append that to the txid?
1420 2013-08-15 21:37:38 <michagogo> I have no idea
1421 2013-08-15 21:38:01 <michagogo> I find it very annoying :-/
1422 2013-08-15 21:38:23 <sipa> perhaps that's the vout index?
1423 2013-08-15 21:38:28 <sipa> oh
1424 2013-08-15 21:38:30 * sipa is late
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1427 2013-08-15 21:38:56 <sipa> if you want to identify the txout crediting you (which is useful in case you want to construct a raw transaction), you need that vout index
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1430 2013-08-15 21:40:20 <michagogo> sipa: The annoying part is that, with -### appended, the string as-is doesn't work for pasting into getrawtransaction, createrawtransaction, etc
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1432 2013-08-15 21:40:35 <TalkSoup> hey does anyone have any ideas as to where i can get a working stratum software for a pool?
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1434 2013-08-15 21:40:48 TalkSoup is now known as FaucetBot
1435 2013-08-15 21:40:51 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: I can't believe you deleted my linkspam :(
1436 2013-08-15 21:41:06 <warren> hmm, do you need approval to edit translations on transifex?
1437 2013-08-15 21:41:24 <sipa> never done so, but i don't think so
1438 2013-08-15 21:41:49 <warren> i don't see any edit optoin
1439 2013-08-15 21:42:56 <FaucetBot> meh im talking to myself here
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1441 2013-08-15 21:44:11 <aceat64> I still think it makes no sense to include the vout index (if that's what it is) in this context. Heck, it isn't included in the txn details window!
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1444 2013-08-15 21:45:02 <sipa> pull requests welcome, i guess
1445 2013-08-15 21:47:03 <aceat64> ya, now I just need to figure out how stuff works in qt... lol
1446 2013-08-15 21:48:23 <helo> aceat64: it's for creating raw transactions
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1460 2013-08-15 22:07:32 <michagogo> helo: That's when you need it, yes
1461 2013-08-15 22:07:58 <michagogo> helo: But appending it as -000 to the txid when you select "copy txid" doesn't really make sense
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1464 2013-08-15 22:11:58 <helo> troof
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1472 2013-08-15 22:29:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: I could have sworn I commented on the BIP32 test vectors.  Have we heard from a second implementation that they were able to use the vectors and get agreement?  If so, ACK.
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1474 2013-08-15 22:29:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, several
1475 2013-08-15 22:29:56 <michagogo> ;;later tell BlueMatt Feature request/suggestion for pulltester: Only bother testing on pull requests that, ya know, actually modify code...
1476 2013-08-15 22:29:56 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1478 2013-08-15 22:30:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: they caught a bug in bitsofproof's BIP32 implementation even
1479 2013-08-15 22:32:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: also, the test vectors were produced by an ad-hoc implementation, predating the pull request
1480 2013-08-15 22:32:05 ecoloco has joined
1481 2013-08-15 22:32:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: Right, mostly I was looking for "not implemented by you"
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1483 2013-08-15 22:34:09 <sipa> good point
1484 2013-08-15 22:34:20 <sipa> well, technically *this* implementation didn't catch any bugs
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1497 2013-08-15 22:51:29 <Diablo-D3> hey guys
1498 2013-08-15 22:51:32 <Diablo-D3> remember when I said SMS
1499 2013-08-15 22:51:33 <Diablo-D3> http://blog.coinbase.com/post/58354652059/you-can-now-perform-all-basic-actions-in-bitcoin
1500 2013-08-15 22:51:44 <Diablo-D3> requires to have your bitcoins at coinbase
1501 2013-08-15 22:51:57 <Diablo-D3> but this really does make bitcoin africa-able now
1502 2013-08-15 22:52:28 <c0rw1n> where is coinbase.com ?
1503 2013-08-15 22:52:58 <c0rw1n> geographically
1504 2013-08-15 22:53:01 <Diablo-D3> in the US
1505 2013-08-15 22:53:09 <c0rw1n> yeah it's dead
1506 2013-08-15 22:53:20 <Diablo-D3> but the argument was about how most of africa has spotty internet access and bitcoin just wont work there
1507 2013-08-15 22:53:30 <Diablo-D3> but SMS does tend to work in some areas that the internet doesnt
1508 2013-08-15 22:53:41 <c0rw1n> ok, that's good
1509 2013-08-15 22:53:47 <c0rw1n> the tech exists and works
1510 2013-08-15 22:54:09 <c0rw1n> now we need it opensource, and asap to run it outside the crazy police state
1511 2013-08-15 22:54:18 <Diablo-D3> oh shuddup c0rw1n
1512 2013-08-15 22:54:23 <Diablo-D3> dont believe the silly mass media
1513 2013-08-15 22:54:35 <Diablo-D3> the government simply doesnt give a fuck about bitcoin
1514 2013-08-15 22:54:45 <c0rw1n> yet
1515 2013-08-15 22:54:47 <Diablo-D3> ever
1516 2013-08-15 22:54:49 elgrecoFL has quit (Changing host)
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1518 2013-08-15 22:54:59 <Diablo-D3> its a fictional made up currency that some japanese kid on reddit made up
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1521 2013-08-15 22:55:20 <Cusipzzz> tell that to the judge in the pirate case
1522 2013-08-15 22:55:32 <Diablo-D3> Cusipzzz: I would, but honestly, that judge is a bit looney
1523 2013-08-15 22:55:37 <Diablo-D3> he believes pirates are real too
1524 2013-08-15 22:56:07 <Cusipzzz> lol..coinbase would be better served to move to canada asap. bitinstant already was killed, they will be next
1525 2013-08-15 22:57:08 <Diablo-D3> Cusipzzz: not you too
1526 2013-08-15 22:57:35 elgrecoFL has joined
1527 2013-08-15 22:58:11 <Diablo-D3> bitinstant failed because it was a shitty service that lied about the tx time
1528 2013-08-15 22:58:22 <Cusipzzz> bitcoins to fiat exchange in the us is essentially dead, or will be. it's impossible to satisfy fed and all the state regulators. even with vc lawyers
1529 2013-08-15 22:58:34 <c0rw1n> face it, every new technology that pops up in the U.S. is either totally enregimented, or destroyed. The only ones to resist that are the p2p networks, only because unenforceability because there's simply no way to prosecute millions of people at once.
1530 2013-08-15 22:58:50 <Cusipzzz> the sooner it dies the sooner real replacements in favorable jurisdictions such as canada and india can take over
1531 2013-08-15 22:58:57 JTF195 has joined
1532 2013-08-15 22:59:10 <Diablo-D3> Cusipzzz: yeah, but then I might as well just sell all my bitcoins and tank the market
1533 2013-08-15 22:59:10 wboy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1534 2013-08-15 22:59:21 <c0rw1n> you have enough bitcoin for that?
1535 2013-08-15 22:59:23 <Cusipzzz> why? it will thrive in those places
1536 2013-08-15 22:59:33 <Diablo-D3> Cusipzzz: I have no interest in doing business with canada or india
1537 2013-08-15 22:59:34 wboy has joined
1538 2013-08-15 22:59:41 <Diablo-D3> c0rw1n: you'd be surprised.
1539 2013-08-15 23:00:18 <Diablo-D3> the last time I sold a small part of my fortune, the market sank to almost $50 after everyone paniced
1540 2013-08-15 23:00:41 <Cusipzzz> well tough luck. just like 18 year olds going to canada to drink, or people goint here for perscription drugs that do not need a script.
1541 2013-08-15 23:01:02 JTF195 has quit (Client Quit)
1542 2013-08-15 23:01:19 <Diablo-D3> I dont think canadian banks allow americans to get bank accounts
1543 2013-08-15 23:01:22 JTF195 has joined
1544 2013-08-15 23:02:43 <Cusipzzz> fiat-usd will be underground localbitcoins style. just a matter of time. fortunately other jurisditions will not cave so easily. anyway, topic for another chanel
1545 2013-08-15 23:03:18 <c0rw1n> there's no #bitcoin-exchange-speculation, as such, no
1546 2013-08-15 23:03:34 <c0rw1n> ah right this is -dev
1547 2013-08-15 23:03:35 <c0rw1n> sry
1548 2013-08-15 23:03:40 <Diablo-D3> so I might as well just start selling my bitcoins then
1549 2013-08-15 23:03:42 <Diablo-D3> oh well
1550 2013-08-15 23:04:15 <c0rw1n> you can open a business in Canada
1551 2013-08-15 23:04:21 <c0rw1n> and a bank account for that
1552 2013-08-15 23:04:23 <Cusipzzz> if you are holding them in hopes of a certified usa-legal exchange to handle > 50btc at a time with full kyc/aml backing, then yes, you should probably sell.
1553 2013-08-15 23:04:44 <Diablo-D3> ;;ticker
1554 2013-08-15 23:04:44 <gribble> MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 110.13975, Best ask: 110.99988, Bid-ask spread: 0.86013, Last trade: 110.13474, 24 hour volume: 14462.96343997, 24 hour low: 108.78000, 24 hour high: 113.32100, 24 hour vwap: 111.15093
1555 2013-08-15 23:09:47 Ninsei_ has joined
1556 2013-08-15 23:11:12 <rethaw> Diablo-D3: what's up with your company?
1557 2013-08-15 23:11:27 <Diablo-D3> rethaw: why do you ask
1558 2013-08-15 23:11:49 <rethaw> curiosity mainly
1559 2013-08-15 23:12:07 <Diablo-D3> rethaw: waiting for asicminer to issue divdends faster, really
1560 2013-08-15 23:12:48 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1561 2013-08-15 23:13:48 <warren> I can't figure out how to edit a translation in transifex
1562 2013-08-15 23:14:34 <rethaw> why is that?
1563 2013-08-15 23:22:15 one_zero has joined
1564 2013-08-15 23:22:48 <michagogo> Interesting, I think I may have found (one of?) blockchain.info's node(s?)
1565 2013-08-15 23:23:12 freewil has joined
1566 2013-08-15 23:23:28 <michagogo> 95.154.230.107, sending "version":60000, "subver":""
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1581 2013-08-15 23:59:20 <jgarzik> hmmmmm
1582 2013-08-15 23:59:30 <jgarzik> zeromq might be a nice interface for miners