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 107 2013-08-18 03:31:00 <rubino123> I am having trouble using the python-jsonrpc to work with bitcoind
 108 2013-08-18 03:31:24 <rubino123> I am getting a connection refused error
 109 2013-08-18 03:32:18 <rubino123> I checked bitcoin.conf and it looks ok:  just dummy settings for rpcuser and rpcpassword
 110 2013-08-18 03:32:22 <rubino123> defualt ip
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 413 2013-08-18 16:00:08 <hardfalcon> hi everyone :)
 414 2013-08-18 16:04:34 michagogo has joined
 415 2013-08-18 16:04:45 <hardfalcon> I'd be willing to write a patch for bitcoin-qt to make it use the hardware accelerated padlock engine of my via nano CPU so I'm not sitting here with 10-15 hours of 100% CPU load just for resyncing with the hive when I haven't started bitcoin-qt for a few weeks. But TBH I'm not exactly sure where to start - would it be enough to make sure that openssl uses the hardware acceleration and then simply recompile the vanilla bitcoin-qt sou
 416 2013-08-18 16:05:14 <Luke-Jr> I don't think padlock will accelerate things much
 417 2013-08-18 16:05:27 <nanotube> hardfalcon: fwiw, your msg got cut off at 'bitcoin-qt sou'
 418 2013-08-18 16:05:40 <hardfalcon> oh, thx
 419 2013-08-18 16:05:40 <Luke-Jr> but you could look at BFGMiner's VIA padlock CPU miner code
 420 2013-08-18 16:05:46 <hardfalcon> * bitcoin-qt source code, or do I have to patch the bitcoin-qt source code by itself?
 421 2013-08-18 16:05:55 <sipa> i'm not sure any of the CPU intensive parts of chain validation can be accelerated
 422 2013-08-18 16:06:11 <sipa> well, an OpenCL full ECDSA implementation would
 423 2013-08-18 16:06:18 <Luke-Jr> the only chance padlock will help significantly, is if it does ECDSA yeah
 424 2013-08-18 16:06:41 <sipa> chain validation is not the same thing as mining
 425 2013-08-18 16:06:44 <Luke-Jr> sipa: padlock is VIA's x86 extensions for SHA256 and some other things (not sure what it includes)
 426 2013-08-18 16:06:46 <hardfalcon> Luke-Jr: I'm pretty sure that CPU speed is the limiting factor on my machine because the CPU is dead slow by itself, I have a 50mbit/s VDSL2 line and the harddisk definitely provides the data faster than the CPU can hash it
 427 2013-08-18 16:06:47 <sipa> it's a very different and much more complex thing
 428 2013-08-18 16:07:03 <Luke-Jr> hardfalcon: verification isn't hashing.
 429 2013-08-18 16:07:23 <Luke-Jr> there's some TINY subset of verification that involves checking the hashes
 430 2013-08-18 16:07:25 <sipa> it needs to verify ECDSA signatures, which is relatively slow
 431 2013-08-18 16:07:32 <sipa> and very slow compared to SHA256
 432 2013-08-18 16:07:35 <hardfalcon> oh ok
 433 2013-08-18 16:07:47 <hardfalcon> well the via CPU has some capability to speed that up as well IIRC
 434 2013-08-18 16:07:51 Namworld has joined
 435 2013-08-18 16:08:00 <hardfalcon> the padlock engine does also feature a HW accelerated montgomery multiplicator
 436 2013-08-18 16:08:00 <sipa> yes and no
 437 2013-08-18 16:08:06 <sipa> hmmm
 438 2013-08-18 16:08:24 <hardfalcon> (something like "square and multiply" in silicon if I understand correctly)
 439 2013-08-18 16:09:16 <sipa> i haven't seen any references to that in the openssl source code
 440 2013-08-18 16:09:28 <hardfalcon> but ECC is tricky, gotta admit I don't have any experience with *that* :/
 441 2013-08-18 16:09:38 <Luke-Jr> http://referaat.cs.utwente.nl/conference/14/paper/7244/speeding-up-ec-cryptography-on-embedded-hardware.pdf
 442 2013-08-18 16:10:25 <sipa> hardfalcon: in any case, there is certainly potential for speeding that up
 443 2013-08-18 16:10:48 BTC_Bear has joined
 444 2013-08-18 16:10:56 <hardfalcon> Luke-Jr: thx for the link, that's an interesting paper :)
 445 2013-08-18 16:11:05 <sipa> hardfalcon: i wrote a (software) implementation of ECDSA specifically for secp256k1, and on 64-bit CPU's it results in a ~6 fold speedup over OpenSSL
 446 2013-08-18 16:11:24 <hardfalcon> sipa: what version of openssl?
 447 2013-08-18 16:11:49 <hardfalcon> AFAIK their padlock support is broken on x86_64
 448 2013-08-18 16:11:58 <shesek> does anyone know what's the status of bitcoinjs-lib? is it abandon?
 449 2013-08-18 16:12:10 <Luke-Jr> …
 450 2013-08-18 16:12:11 <sipa> hardfalcon: oh sure, it's purely x86_64
 451 2013-08-18 16:12:21 <sipa> hardfalcon: both openssl and my code
 452 2013-08-18 16:12:22 <Luke-Jr> does a padlock x86_64 CPU exist?
 453 2013-08-18 16:12:29 <hardfalcon> yes
 454 2013-08-18 16:12:42 <hardfalcon> I've got one and I'm using it as I'm chatting with you ;)
 455 2013-08-18 16:12:48 <hardfalcon> even a dualcore
 456 2013-08-18 16:12:56 <hardfalcon> via nano x2, 1.2 ghz
 457 2013-08-18 16:13:10 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 458 2013-08-18 16:13:14 <sipa> i do an ECDSA validation in 300k CPU cycles or so (on a i7-2670QM)
 459 2013-08-18 16:13:24 <hardfalcon> comes even with VMX (they licensed the vanderpool technology from intel)
 460 2013-08-18 16:13:43 <hardfalcon> but of course that is dead slow as well, it's just 1.2ghz
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 462 2013-08-18 16:18:04 <hardfalcon> sipa: I gotta admit I don't have any comparison figures for that
 463 2013-08-18 16:18:24 patcon has joined
 464 2013-08-18 16:19:37 <michagogo> So the other day, I was wondering if Wireshark understood Bitcoin
 465 2013-08-18 16:19:46 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 466 2013-08-18 16:19:59 <sipa> michagogo: someone once started writing a wireshark recognization script for it, or whatever it's called
 467 2013-08-18 16:20:04 <sipa> i can't remember whether he completed it
 468 2013-08-18 16:20:06 <michagogo> After a while of Googling (after opening it and seeing it apparently didn't)...
 469 2013-08-18 16:20:39 <michagogo> Turns out that a bitcoin dissector actually does come with it -- just not in the older version I had
 470 2013-08-18 16:21:14 agnostic98 has joined
 471 2013-08-18 16:21:16 <sipa> ha
 472 2013-08-18 16:22:17 <michagogo> And the googling didn't even turn that up -- I was looking for a plugin and it took me a while to check what the latest version was
 473 2013-08-18 16:22:28 <michagogo> or rather, took me a while to think of checking
 474 2013-08-18 16:23:26 patcon has joined
 475 2013-08-18 16:23:50 <Luke-Jr> neat, it does everything except disassemble scripts
 476 2013-08-18 16:24:14 <michagogo> Huh.
 477 2013-08-18 16:25:00 <michagogo> Should [bitcoin protocol -> inventory message -> inventory vector -> data hash] be the TXID of a transaction?
 478 2013-08-18 16:25:33 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 479 2013-08-18 16:25:45 <sipa> if it's a tx being announced
 480 2013-08-18 16:25:48 <sipa> it can also be a block hash
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 482 2013-08-18 16:25:53 <michagogo> Yeah, it's a tx
 483 2013-08-18 16:25:57 <sipa> it can be
 484 2013-08-18 16:26:11 <michagogo> (I set up wireshark to listen on port 18333 and sent myself some testcoins)
 485 2013-08-18 16:26:55 <michagogo> Hmm.
 486 2013-08-18 16:27:26 <michagogo> I wonder what's going wrong here? http://i.imgur.com/q2pFevO.png
 487 2013-08-18 16:28:04 <michagogo> Also, apparently my transaction's change of a block hash was exactly what a testnet miner needed to solve a block -- it confirmed in under 2 seconds
 488 2013-08-18 16:28:17 <sipa> is something wrong?
 489 2013-08-18 16:28:18 <michagogo> The txid is f8f98e476e313e9ac0830de0da14e95bbc3985052396f445a75abf991856eda4
 490 2013-08-18 16:28:25 <michagogo> I'm not seeing that there
 491 2013-08-18 16:28:26 <sipa> ah, byteswapped
 492 2013-08-18 16:28:30 <michagogo> ...what
 493 2013-08-18 16:28:33 <michagogo> Oh.
 494 2013-08-18 16:28:36 maaku has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 495 2013-08-18 16:28:37 <michagogo> Gahhhhh.
 496 2013-08-18 16:29:03 <michagogo> Bitcoin-qt byteswaps its data?
 497 2013-08-18 16:29:13 <sipa> yes and no
 498 2013-08-18 16:29:31 <sipa> its interprets byte arrays as little-endian encoded integers
 499 2013-08-18 16:30:09 <sipa> and if you print that number for human consumption, you put the most significant digits first
 500 2013-08-18 16:30:09 <michagogo> That's right-to-left?
 501 2013-08-18 16:30:14 <sipa> but internally, nothing is swapped
 502 2013-08-18 16:30:22 <michagogo> I see.
 503 2013-08-18 16:30:49 <michagogo> So it gets transmitted backwards, but when the software displays it it puts it back in the right order?
 504 2013-08-18 16:31:03 <michagogo> And WS is showing it the way it's being transmitted...
 505 2013-08-18 16:31:04 <michagogo> :-/
 506 2013-08-18 16:31:35 <sipa> i'd rather say it's displayed backwards
 507 2013-08-18 16:31:37 <sipa> :)
 508 2013-08-18 16:31:47 <sipa> but that's s philosophical discussion
 509 2013-08-18 16:31:52 * michagogo still doesn't understand why little vs big endian is a thing
 510 2013-08-18 16:32:17 <sipa> well humans use big endian
 511 2013-08-18 16:32:22 <sipa> and some computers use little endian
 512 2013-08-18 16:32:28 <sipa> it's got to cause problems somewhere :)
 513 2013-08-18 16:32:56 <michagogo> [19:32:09] <sipa> and some computers use little endian
 514 2013-08-18 16:33:03 <michagogo> Right, that's the part I don't understand
 515 2013-08-18 16:33:03 <hardfalcon> well you could use ARM to solve that problem ^^
 516 2013-08-18 16:33:21 maaku has joined
 517 2013-08-18 16:33:37 <sipa> michagogo: it's very convenient that you can use a pointer to 32-bit int as a pointer to 64-bit int and vice verse
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 519 2013-08-18 16:33:49 <sipa> on big-endian, you need to add/subtract an offset
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 533 2013-08-18 16:53:00 <hardfalcon> Luke-Jr: the conclusion of that paper is very interesting as well, because apparently they also had problems with the padlock engine on 64 bit, just like the openssl people
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 547 2013-08-18 17:08:27 <michagogo> Just to make sure I'm not making a stupid mistake here... A txid is always 64 hex digits, right?
 548 2013-08-18 17:09:01 <lianj> yes
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 550 2013-08-18 17:10:00 <michagogo> k
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 559 2013-08-18 17:25:34 <michagogo> ...okay, that didn't go as well as I'd hoped
 560 2013-08-18 17:25:52 <michagogo> I guess I shouldn't have expected it to.
 561 2013-08-18 17:26:12 jeewee has joined
 562 2013-08-18 17:26:33 <michagogo> I think I've found (one of) blockchain.info's node(s), based on their site listing how long they've been connected to me
 563 2013-08-18 17:27:11 <michagogo> I tried creating a raw transaction (just spending bitcoins back to myself) and using bc.i's pushtx to confirm that it's them
 564 2013-08-18 17:28:10 <michagogo> I guess, in hindsight, I shouldn't have expected bc.i to be the first to send a pushtx'd transaction to every one of the ~875 nodes they're connected to
 565 2013-08-18 17:29:33 <sipa> why not?
 566 2013-08-18 17:29:36 [\\\] has joined
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 568 2013-08-18 17:32:20 <michagogo> sipa: Because they can't do it simultaneously
 569 2013-08-18 17:33:06 Tom_Soft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 570 2013-08-18 17:33:09 <michagogo> It probably didn't take more than a second or two to send to the 875 nodes, but in that time it's been spreading from those nodes as well
 571 2013-08-18 17:33:35 <sipa> right
 572 2013-08-18 17:34:00 <michagogo> (was that some kind of test?)
 573 2013-08-18 17:34:09 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 574 2013-08-18 17:34:35 <sipa> no
 575 2013-08-18 17:34:48 <sipa> though there's way to make it propagate more evenly, i guess
 576 2013-08-18 17:35:53 * michagogo guesses
 577 2013-08-18 17:35:53 <michagogo> Send invs to everyone, then get the getdatas from everyone, and then send tx to everyone?
 578 2013-08-18 17:36:04 <sipa> i mean having several outgoing nodes
 579 2013-08-18 17:36:20 <sipa> and send the pushtx simultaneously to all
 580 2013-08-18 17:39:13 <michagogo> Ah
 581 2013-08-18 17:39:27 <michagogo> I mean, for all I know that's what they do
 582 2013-08-18 17:43:32 btcbtc has joined
 583 2013-08-18 17:45:57 <i2pRelay> <toran> hello
 584 2013-08-18 17:46:39 <i2pRelay> <toran> ?nicks
 585 2013-08-18 17:48:11 <i2pRelay> <toran> let's say your neighborhood wants to repave its roads
 586 2013-08-18 17:48:28 <i2pRelay> <toran> it sets up a bitcoin address, and neighbors donate to it
 587 2013-08-18 17:48:50 <i2pRelay> <toran> finally, someone comes along to pave the road and would now like to claim the money
 588 2013-08-18 17:49:25 <i2pRelay> <toran> five or so neighbors are randomly selected to verify the road was in fact paved well
 589 2013-08-18 17:49:45 <i2pRelay> <toran> then the construction company is given the money
 590 2013-08-18 17:50:20 <i2pRelay> <toran> without using trusted parties and only rpc calls, what is the best way to handle the donation address in bitcoin?
 591 2013-08-18 17:51:10 <i2pRelay> <toran> i was thinking about multisigaddresses, but it is not clear who would own the private keys
 592 2013-08-18 17:51:20 <Luke-Jr> you need trusted parties..
 593 2013-08-18 17:51:21 <sipa> private keys are private
 594 2013-08-18 17:51:32 <i2pRelay> <toran> i mean, why make five random people the road paving kings of the whole world?
 595 2013-08-18 17:51:49 <sipa> they're only the road paving kings of one street
 596 2013-08-18 17:52:03 <i2pRelay> <toran> why do you need trusted parties?
 597 2013-08-18 17:52:18 <sipa> scalability
 598 2013-08-18 17:52:47 <i2pRelay> <toran> can you say more?
 599 2013-08-18 17:53:24 <sipa> how will you tell the protocol who was selected to be the five neighbors who are even allowed to do the validation?
 600 2013-08-18 17:53:35 <sipa> how will you even decide that
 601 2013-08-18 17:53:39 <sipa> and how will you agree on it?
 602 2013-08-18 17:53:46 <sipa> that's not something the protocol can do for you
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 604 2013-08-18 17:54:14 <michagogo> toran: You want to ask the people who will be authorized to jointly release the funds for public keys
 605 2013-08-18 17:54:25 <michagogo> Use those public keys to create a multisig address
 606 2013-08-18 17:54:31 <michagogo> Everyone pays into that multisig address
 607 2013-08-18 17:54:45 <sipa> you can have 5 keys from those neighbors, build a multisig address from it, have everyone donate to that, and have them release it to the construction company
 608 2013-08-18 17:54:48 <sipa> that's all easy
 609 2013-08-18 17:55:03 <michagogo> And then m of the n privkeys you use need to sign
 610 2013-08-18 17:55:06 <sipa> but that only works when you have those verifiers identified and people trust them
 611 2013-08-18 17:55:13 <michagogo> (or was it the other way around)>
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 613 2013-08-18 17:56:19 <i2pRelay> <toran> sipa, i was asking about the addresses, not the random selection
 614 2013-08-18 17:56:32 btcbtc has joined
 615 2013-08-18 17:56:40 Darwerft has joined
 616 2013-08-18 17:56:45 <sipa> so what's the problem?
 617 2013-08-18 17:56:52 <sipa> everyone has his own private key
 618 2013-08-18 17:57:01 <sipa> you construct a multisig address from the selected verifiers
 619 2013-08-18 17:57:09 <sipa> and have people pay to that
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 623 2013-08-18 17:59:13 <michagogo> sipa: Found a way around the endianness problem
 624 2013-08-18 17:59:32 <nsh> did you superglue the ends together?
 625 2013-08-18 17:59:34 <michagogo> Using this line of ruby code: Clipboard.copy(Clipboard.paste.scan(/\h\h/).reverse.join(":"))
 626 2013-08-18 17:59:47 <michagogo> (using the 'clipboard' rubygem)
 627 2013-08-18 18:00:21 <sipa> what does the clipboard have to do with anything?
 628 2013-08-18 18:00:31 <sipa> i'd suggest changing the dissector to flip the bytes :)
 629 2013-08-18 18:01:29 <michagogo> sipa: I think the dissector is compiled into the software, though :-/
 630 2013-08-18 18:01:47 * michagogo doesn't want to get in to the source and trying to get it to compile
 631 2013-08-18 18:01:50 <sipa> and the source cannot be changed? :p
 632 2013-08-18 18:02:11 * michagogo doesn't want to get in to the source and trying to get it to compile
 633 2013-08-18 18:02:27 <sipa> ok
 634 2013-08-18 18:02:46 <michagogo> Anyway, it's an easy way to transform the txid into the format wireshark wants it
 635 2013-08-18 18:03:06 <michagogo> Both in the right order, and with : separators
 636 2013-08-18 18:06:19 <Luke-Jr> yay gentoo
 637 2013-08-18 18:07:41 <michagogo> Lol
 638 2013-08-18 18:07:48 <michagogo> Accidentally did rm wallet.dat
 639 2013-08-18 18:07:53 <michagogo> instead of rm debug.log
 640 2013-08-18 18:08:07 <sipa> testnet?
 641 2013-08-18 18:08:14 <michagogo> Fortunately it was on my patched testnet mining node
 642 2013-08-18 18:08:22 <michagogo> (the one with no wallet)
 643 2013-08-18 18:08:39 <michagogo> Well, not no wallet
 644 2013-08-18 18:08:44 <michagogo> But a 100-key wallet
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 651 2013-08-18 18:18:25 <CobaltBlueD> I'm reading through new check-ins. The 'Payment Protocol Work' (0070) looks good for customer service but won't improve time to validation correct?
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 653 2013-08-18 18:20:10 <sipa> validation is instant, and the customer can immediately know the merchant validated the transaction
 654 2013-08-18 18:20:39 <sipa> confirmation still isn't, but if you compare that to credit cards... confirmation takes months
 655 2013-08-18 18:20:45 <CobaltBlueD> but merchant can't validate against P2P any quicker
 656 2013-08-18 18:20:48 <sipa> (knowing it won't be reverted)
 657 2013-08-18 18:21:34 <sipa> right, indeed, but it could for examplr allow companies that provide insurance against reversal
 658 2013-08-18 18:22:00 <CobaltBlueD> blockchain maintains significant numbers of connections to other nodes.  Would large merchants accelerate the process w/that model? Sorry for the stupid questions.  Just catching up.
 659 2013-08-18 18:22:19 <sipa> i have no idea what you're asking
 660 2013-08-18 18:22:35 <CobaltBlueD> sorry. Let me try again.
 661 2013-08-18 18:22:59 <CobaltBlueD> I'm looking for # of confirmations correct?  More confirmation = less chance of issue.
 662 2013-08-18 18:23:07 <sipa> yes
 663 2013-08-18 18:23:23 <sipa> but if you want instant certainty, you need more
 664 2013-08-18 18:23:27 <CobaltBlueD> More connections within the network translates to quicker confirmations?
 665 2013-08-18 18:23:35 <sipa> no, not at all
 666 2013-08-18 18:23:39 <CobaltBlueD> ah
 667 2013-08-18 18:24:02 <sipa> it's really the first confirmation that counts
 668 2013-08-18 18:24:13 <sipa> as that is when the transaction gets into a block
 669 2013-08-18 18:24:27 <sipa> every block on top of that is an extra confirmation no matter what
 670 2013-08-18 18:24:39 <CobaltBlueD> got it.
 671 2013-08-18 18:25:05 <sipa> so what you care about is whether it gets into a block before your evil customer tries to double spend the transaction from under you
 672 2013-08-18 18:25:20 <CobaltBlueD> So faster block mining means faster confirmation.  Which of course is all throttled in the algorithm.
 673 2013-08-18 18:25:32 <sipa> and if you want insurance agaimst that, you can't rely on the protocol
 674 2013-08-18 18:25:54 <sipa> there are no guarantees except for confirmations, and they are inherently non-instant
 675 2013-08-18 18:26:13 <sipa> so you need someone to provide that protection for you
 676 2013-08-18 18:26:35 <sipa> there are some ways to assess the risk
 677 2013-08-18 18:26:40 <CobaltBlueD> I think you mean insurance, not protection
 678 2013-08-18 18:26:47 <sipa> right
 679 2013-08-18 18:26:51 <sipa> imdeed
 680 2013-08-18 18:27:42 <sipa> and i think the payment proto ol will simplify doing that, as you are directly submitting the transaction to the receiver
 681 2013-08-18 18:27:55 <sipa> instead of just broadcasting and hoping they get it sometime
 682 2013-08-18 18:29:02 <CobaltBlueD> makes sense.  merchant friendly is good.
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 686 2013-08-18 18:30:54 <CobaltBlueD> I'll apologize in advance for future questions that are probably blatantly obvious    ;)
 687 2013-08-18 18:31:22 <sipa> hardly anything is blatantly obvious to everyone :)
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 691 2013-08-18 18:38:37 <michagogo> Apparently Wolfram Alpha interprets "bitcoin" as a "US bit"
 692 2013-08-18 18:38:46 <michagogo> which it defines as 12.5 cents
 693 2013-08-18 18:38:48 <michagogo> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+bitcoin+in+dollars
 694 2013-08-18 18:39:11 <i2pRelay> <toran> suppose one of the verifiers doesn't want to validate roads anymore and wishes to transfer the duty to someone else?
 695 2013-08-18 18:39:42 <michagogo> toran: Well, they can give them the private key
 696 2013-08-18 18:39:49 <i2pRelay> <toran> or another task has way too many completers, and it's too much work
 697 2013-08-18 18:39:52 <michagogo> But then they still retain the ability to validate
 698 2013-08-18 18:40:05 <i2pRelay> <toran> so we'd like to balance it with other tasks that aren't completed that much
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 700 2013-08-18 18:40:23 <michagogo> toran: What can be done is, for example, to make the multisig address 5-of-7
 701 2013-08-18 18:41:07 <michagogo> Which means that there are 7 public keys incorporated in the multisig address, and for a transaction to be valid it needs a signature from 5 out of the 7 jeys
 702 2013-08-18 18:41:10 <michagogo> keys*
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 704 2013-08-18 18:44:42 <i2pRelay> <toran> how does that help?
 705 2013-08-18 18:45:15 <sipa> you really want some higher level voting protocol
 706 2013-08-18 18:45:29 <sipa> if you want to cryptographically settle things at that scale
 707 2013-08-18 18:45:30 <michagogo> toran: Because you have a pool of 7 people, where you only need 5 -- meaning that if one were to be hit by a bus, the funds wouldn't be trapped
 708 2013-08-18 18:45:47 <sipa> you only really need bitcoin-level validation if nobody trusts anyone
 709 2013-08-18 18:46:03 <sipa> but what you can do in the scripting language is intentionally limited
 710 2013-08-18 18:46:15 <sipa> as you're essentially require the entire world to validate it for you
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 714 2013-08-18 18:47:49 <i2pRelay> <toran> i'm not familiar with scripting
 715 2013-08-18 18:48:31 <i2pRelay> <toran> this is going to sound bad, but i really think it'd be better in this application if there was some kind of market of tasks to be verified
 716 2013-08-18 18:48:39 <i2pRelay> <toran> and it wasn't a permanent group of 5 out of 7 people
 717 2013-08-18 18:48:48 <i2pRelay> <toran> to handle the balancing of popular tasks
 718 2013-08-18 18:49:52 <i2pRelay> <toran> suppose instead of paving a road, the task was something like having an omegle conversation about cryptocurrencies?
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 721 2013-08-18 18:51:19 <i2pRelay> <toran> i imagine that could be very popular, and you wouldn't want to leave that to 5 out of 7 people
 722 2013-08-18 18:52:15 <michagogo> ...task?
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 729 2013-08-18 18:58:40 <i2pRelay> <toran> sorry, the last i got was <michagogo> ...task?
 730 2013-08-18 18:58:54 <i2pRelay> <toran> and i said yes, the road-paving was an example of a task (but probably a bad one)
 731 2013-08-18 18:59:30 <michagogo> toran: An omegle chat is very, very different from paving a road
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 734 2013-08-18 19:00:30 <i2pRelay> <toran> in what way that is revelant to this question?
 735 2013-08-18 19:01:09 <michagogo> [21:49:39] <i2pRelay> <toran> suppose instead of paving a road, the task was something like having an omegle conversation about cryptocurrencies?
 736 2013-08-18 19:01:13 <michagogo> In that way.
 737 2013-08-18 19:01:45 <i2pRelay> <toran> i'm sorry, i don't understand
 738 2013-08-18 19:02:22 <sipa> what is an omegle chat?
 739 2013-08-18 19:02:47 <i2pRelay> <toran> it's a website that hooks you up with a stranger
 740 2013-08-18 19:02:48 <i2pRelay> <toran> omegle.com
 741 2013-08-18 19:03:07 <sipa> i don't see how this applies to that
 742 2013-08-18 19:03:53 <i2pRelay> <toran> suppose someone posts a task where they will pay you .006 bitcoin to chat with a stranger about cryptocurrencies
 743 2013-08-18 19:04:08 <i2pRelay> <toran> so people who like bitcoin donate to some address (my question) and let's say it is now 100 btc
 744 2013-08-18 19:04:23 <i2pRelay> <toran> then another person goes to omegle and tells them about the magic of bitcoin
 745 2013-08-18 19:04:31 <i2pRelay> <toran> they upload a screenshot of their chat to the network
 746 2013-08-18 19:04:49 <i2pRelay> <toran> five or so people verify this chat did in fact happen and was reasonably long, and so on
 747 2013-08-18 19:05:02 <i2pRelay> <toran> and somehow the person gets .006 btc from the donation address for completing the task
 748 2013-08-18 19:05:33 <i2pRelay> <toran> and i am asking if there is a way to create such an address to do this sort of thing
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 750 2013-08-18 19:07:38 <sipa> i don't think so
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 752 2013-08-18 19:07:55 <sipa> you cannot encode "N random people verify" in the cryptocurrency system
 753 2013-08-18 19:07:58 <sipa> as there are no identities
 754 2013-08-18 19:08:12 <sipa> everyone has as many identities as they like
 755 2013-08-18 19:08:37 <sipa> you can get around this problem by establishing the involved identities in advance
 756 2013-08-18 19:09:23 <sipa> but if you want to do that in a scalable way, you really need some trusted party to manage things for you
 757 2013-08-18 19:09:36 <sipa> directly encoding potentially thousands of keys is very expensive
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 759 2013-08-18 19:10:03 <sipa> there are some ideas which would allow making this scale better i think
 760 2013-08-18 19:10:20 <sipa> in particular merkleized script AST's, but that's a long way off
 761 2013-08-18 19:10:49 <i2pRelay> <toran> :-(
 762 2013-08-18 19:11:07 <i2pRelay> <toran> well is there some other thing i can write that sort of "extends" off of bitcoin to do this?
 763 2013-08-18 19:11:09 <i2pRelay> <toran> are you saying there's no way to verify the verifiers are different people?
 764 2013-08-18 19:11:18 <sipa> of course not
 765 2013-08-18 19:11:30 <sipa> unless you establish their identities in advance
 766 2013-08-18 19:11:39 <sipa> how will you prevent me from pretending i'm two persons?
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 768 2013-08-18 19:13:06 <i2pRelay> * toran is thinking, there are some other systems here i'm not talking about, and i'm not sure if they help this different-people question, which i hadn't thought about...
 769 2013-08-18 19:13:31 <sipa> well that's unsolvable
 770 2013-08-18 19:13:38 <sipa> unless you establish identities in advance
 771 2013-08-18 19:13:43 <sipa> but once you have done that
 772 2013-08-18 19:13:48 <sipa> then it becomes interesting
 773 2013-08-18 19:15:26 <i2pRelay> <toran> oh!
 774 2013-08-18 19:15:48 <i2pRelay> <toran> i think i might have it: my idea was that pending verifications would be posted to some centralized place
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 776 2013-08-18 19:15:59 <i2pRelay> <toran> and verifiers would pick verifications from that
 777 2013-08-18 19:16:12 <i2pRelay> <toran> in other words, verifiers are randomly selected by the network
 778 2013-08-18 19:16:25 <sipa> wait what?
 779 2013-08-18 19:16:35 <i2pRelay> <toran> so there's no way to guarantee the same person would get to verify himself
 780 2013-08-18 19:16:56 <sipa> how would you guarantee the choice is random?
 781 2013-08-18 19:17:03 <sipa> remember that the network consists of people...
 782 2013-08-18 19:17:16 <michagogo> toran: If the same person can establish enough identities, they can have a good chance of getting several of thoe
 783 2013-08-18 19:17:22 <i2pRelay> <toran> are you familiar with freenet?
 784 2013-08-18 19:17:25 <michagogo> those. Also, what sipa said
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 795 2013-08-18 19:19:54 <i2pRelay> <toran> i guess you're right. you got me.
 796 2013-08-18 19:20:49 <i2pRelay> <toran> sipa, why do you think it's unsolvable?
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 798 2013-08-18 19:21:06 <sipa> i can't explain, it seems trivial to me
 799 2013-08-18 19:21:16 <sipa> if you have no identities, you can't talk about random identities
 800 2013-08-18 19:21:41 <i2pRelay> <toran> why no identites?
 801 2013-08-18 19:21:49 <i2pRelay> <toran> i was planning on using the Web of Trust
 802 2013-08-18 19:22:02 <sipa> then you don't have a trust-free solution anymore
 803 2013-08-18 19:22:07 <sipa> which is what bitcoin is about
 804 2013-08-18 19:22:13 <sipa> if you don't need that, there are tons of ways
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 806 2013-08-18 19:22:55 <i2pRelay> <toran> i'm sory, "trust-free solution"? what do you mean by that?
 807 2013-08-18 19:22:58 <michagogo> Who runs the wiki?
 808 2013-08-18 19:23:04 <sipa> a solution where people don't need to trust others
 809 2013-08-18 19:23:08 <sipa> that's what bitcoin is about
 810 2013-08-18 19:23:16 <sipa> if you're going to use a web of trust, sure
 811 2013-08-18 19:23:16 <i2pRelay> <toran> wiki?
 812 2013-08-18 19:23:23 <sipa> michagogo: MagicalTux
 813 2013-08-18 19:23:28 <michagogo> ;;seen MagicalTux
 814 2013-08-18 19:23:29 <gribble> MagicalTux was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 13 weeks, 3 days, 1 hour, 8 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <MagicalTux> TheLordOfTime: I don't know all the services available out there but surely there is something
 815 2013-08-18 19:23:32 <michagogo> :-/
 816 2013-08-18 19:23:56 <michagogo> I'm seeing this line in the header of the wiki: <b>Warning</b>: mcrypt_create_iv() [<a href='function.mcrypt-create-iv'>function.mcrypt-create-iv</a>]: Cannot open source device in <b>/www/b/bi/bitcoin.it/www/phase3/includes/CryptRand.php</b> on line <b>313</b><br/>
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 818 2013-08-18 19:24:05 <i2pRelay> <toran> how does the Web of Trust ensure they are different people?
 819 2013-08-18 19:24:15 <michagogo> That happens the first time in each while that I load a wiki page
 820 2013-08-18 19:24:16 <sipa> i2pRelay: by trusting people to judge whether those they trust are
 821 2013-08-18 19:24:26 <michagogo> If I refresh or load another page it's not there
 822 2013-08-18 19:24:54 <i2pRelay> <toran> but what about the address?
 823 2013-08-18 19:25:01 <sipa> what address?
 824 2013-08-18 19:25:09 <sipa> you're talking about bitcoin again
 825 2013-08-18 19:25:17 <i2pRelay> <toran> where do you donate to?
 826 2013-08-18 19:25:28 <i2pRelay> <toran> yes, now i'm talking about bitcoin
 827 2013-08-18 19:25:35 <sipa> well bitcoin is not a web of trust :)
 828 2013-08-18 19:25:49 <i2pRelay> <toran> yes, i know that
 829 2013-08-18 19:25:56 <sipa> you're confused
 830 2013-08-18 19:26:15 <i2pRelay> <toran> i probably am :-((
 831 2013-08-18 19:27:08 <sipa> identity validation is something bitcoin does not do
 832 2013-08-18 19:27:19 <i2pRelay> <toran> can you help me out?: the web of trust will help me make sure the verifiers are different people, but there still needs to be some address to donate to
 833 2013-08-18 19:27:19 <sipa> come up with whatever solution you like for that, including a web of trust
 834 2013-08-18 19:27:39 <sipa> and once you have decided through that means who will be validating, ask their pubkeys, and build a multisig address from it
 835 2013-08-18 19:27:42 <sipa> problem solved
 836 2013-08-18 19:28:15 <i2pRelay> <toran> wait, create the address after deciding the verifiers?
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 838 2013-08-18 19:28:24 <sipa> yes
 839 2013-08-18 19:29:00 <i2pRelay> <toran> but the verifiers are selected after the task is completed
 840 2013-08-18 19:29:12 <i2pRelay> <toran> and the address needs to be there before the task is completed so there is money for the person to get paid
 841 2013-08-18 19:29:18 <sipa> how will the verifiers prove that they were the ones selected?
 842 2013-08-18 19:29:21 <i2pRelay> <toran> they won't do it if there's no money there waiting for them
 843 2013-08-18 19:30:01 <i2pRelay> <toran> :-( i don't know
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 845 2013-08-18 19:30:05 <i2pRelay> <toran> i'm trying to get help on that
 846 2013-08-18 19:30:06 <sipa> what distinguishes them from others?
 847 2013-08-18 19:30:15 <sipa> the fact that they got some type of vote?
 848 2013-08-18 19:30:21 <sipa> a vote from whom?
 849 2013-08-18 19:30:30 <sipa> you again have the identity establishing problem
 850 2013-08-18 19:30:39 <i2pRelay> <toran> nothing besides that they would like to verify this particular task
 851 2013-08-18 19:30:58 <sipa> they choose themself to be a verifier?
 852 2013-08-18 19:31:10 <i2pRelay> <toran> yes
 853 2013-08-18 19:31:16 <sipa> hell, i'd voluteer to be a verifier anything that's in my own best interest :D
 854 2013-08-18 19:31:18 <i2pRelay> <toran> they see a list of tasks that need verifying
 855 2013-08-18 19:31:21 <i2pRelay> <toran> and they choose ones
 856 2013-08-18 19:31:44 <i2pRelay> <toran> :-?
 857 2013-08-18 19:31:53 <sipa> how will you prevent me from verifying myself?
 858 2013-08-18 19:32:03 <michagogo> Hmm, Omegle can't find anyone interested in bitcoins :-(
 859 2013-08-18 19:32:07 <sipa> haha
 860 2013-08-18 19:32:11 * sipa off
 861 2013-08-18 19:32:12 <sipa> cya
 862 2013-08-18 19:32:20 <i2pRelay> <toran> still working on it...
 863 2013-08-18 19:33:04 <i2pRelay> <toran> but if there is a public place for posting tasks that need verifying, i think that might be more difficult
 864 2013-08-18 19:33:27 jcorgan has joined
 865 2013-08-18 19:35:35 <i2pRelay> <toran> does anyone else have ideas on what i should do for the donation address?
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 871 2013-08-18 19:44:42 <michagogo> toran: If you want to do this using the bitcoin multisig system, you need to define who must sign to spend at the time that you create the address.
 872 2013-08-18 19:45:05 <i2pRelay> <toran> yes, i understand that
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 877 2013-08-18 19:48:19 <i2pRelay> <toran> is there a way to create a bitcoin address so that money in it can only be spent when certain conditions are met?
 878 2013-08-18 19:48:41 <i2pRelay> <toran> sort of as alternative to whoever has the private key (doesn't make any sense)
 879 2013-08-18 19:48:48 <michagogo> toran: Not with the bitcoin system.
 880 2013-08-18 19:49:03 <michagogo> You would need an external system for handling that
 881 2013-08-18 19:49:19 <i2pRelay> <toran> :-(
 882 2013-08-18 19:49:26 <michagogo> That system could give you an address, and send the coins somewhere when the condition is met
 883 2013-08-18 19:50:06 <i2pRelay> <toran> suppose it's public address anyone can send money to?
 884 2013-08-18 19:50:35 <i2pRelay> <toran> you'd have to trust the person on who's computer the system was running
 885 2013-08-18 19:52:18 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: that's not true
 886 2013-08-18 19:52:36 <Luke-Jr> toran: as long as "certain conditions" can be proved from the blockchain, probably
 887 2013-08-18 19:52:57 <Luke-Jr> toran: usually this means things like "at least 12 of 20 people listed approve it"
 888 2013-08-18 19:53:29 <i2pRelay> <toran> would that list of people have to be defined beforehand?
 889 2013-08-18 19:53:32 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: What kind of "conditions" can be proved without an oracle, besides n-of-m (or is it m-of-n?) signatures?
 890 2013-08-18 19:53:45 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: puzzles? :p
 891 2013-08-18 19:53:45 <michagogo> s/proved/used to make a transaction valid/
 892 2013-08-18 19:53:51 <Luke-Jr> toran: yes
 893 2013-08-18 19:53:57 <michagogo> That's not exactly a condition...
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 895 2013-08-18 19:56:28 <i2pRelay> <toran> defined when the address is created?
 896 2013-08-18 19:57:36 <michagogo> toran: yes
 897 2013-08-18 19:57:47 <michagogo> Like I already said, when you create the address you
 898 2013-08-18 19:57:58 <i2pRelay> <toran> what other kinds of conditions are there?
 899 2013-08-18 19:58:33 <gmaxwell> gah
 900 2013-08-18 19:58:37 <gmaxwell> blind leading the blind
 901 2013-08-18 19:58:49 <gmaxwell> toran: The response michagogo gave you at 12:48 < michagogo> toran: Not with the bitcoin system.
 902 2013-08-18 19:58:52 <gmaxwell> is incorrect.
 903 2013-08-18 19:59:15 <michagogo> gmaxwell: What kind of "conditions" can be proved without an oracle, besides n-of-m (or is it m-of-n?) signatures?
 904 2013-08-18 19:59:23 <i2pRelay> <toran> how can you do it, gmaxwell?
 905 2013-08-18 19:59:55 <gmaxwell> toran: The bitcoin system itself has no concept of addresses, coins are assigned to scripts. Any party who can satisify the script can spend the coins.  So any conditions which you can express in terms of that language can be imposed.
 906 2013-08-18 20:00:32 <i2pRelay> <toran> can you give me some resources on where i can learn more about the scripting language?
 907 2013-08-18 20:00:34 <gmaxwell> toran: here is the script opcodes, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script  some of the operations have been disabled.
 908 2013-08-18 20:01:08 <michagogo> gmaxwell: ...what kinds of conditions can you express in terms of the script language and still pass IsStandard?
 909 2013-08-18 20:01:14 <sipa> in practice, to do what you want today, you'll need to have verifiers known at address creation time, and there can be at most 3
 910 2013-08-18 20:01:16 <gmaxwell> michagogo: here is a rather elaborate example of a conditional transaction, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/why_hash_locked
 911 2013-08-18 20:01:52 <gmaxwell> michagogo: you don't have to pass IsStandard, you just need to pass what a miner will accept. E.g. Eligius will accept all sorts of non isStandard txn.
 912 2013-08-18 20:02:25 <gmaxwell> michagogo: and transaction types can freely be added to IsStandard at any time, just demonstrate a usecase that won't break things.
 913 2013-08-18 20:03:13 PrimeStunna has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 914 2013-08-18 20:03:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't think nonstandard transactions help toran in any way, except by increasing the number of verifiers
 915 2013-08-18 20:03:56 <sipa> the rest of his problem is establishing identities
 916 2013-08-18 20:04:07 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Either way, though, unless you have an oracle the conditions to spend a coin are fixed as soon as coins are sent to the address, which sounds like what toran's trying to get around
 917 2013-08-18 20:04:35 <gmaxwell> I started reading the conversation at 12:48 < i2pRelay> <toran> is there a way to create a bitcoin address so that money in it can only be spent when certain conditions are met?
 918 2013-08-18 20:04:40 <sipa> merkleized ast scripts could be used to have a 3-of-10000 script where the signers need some proof that they have been voted for
 919 2013-08-18 20:04:47 <gmaxwell> so it sounds like you're both now talking about some contact that I do not have.
 920 2013-08-18 20:05:05 <gmaxwell> er. context*
 921 2013-08-18 20:05:41 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Read up?
 922 2013-08-18 20:05:56 <michagogo> Then you'd understand what we're talking about :-D
 923 2013-08-18 20:06:02 <gmaxwell> (and, you were still giving an incorrect answer to that particular question!)
 924 2013-08-18 20:07:05 <i2pRelay> <toran> sipa, where can i learn more about merkelized ast scripts?
 925 2013-08-18 20:07:23 <gmaxwell> toran: It doesn't exist so it doesn't help you.
 926 2013-08-18 20:07:52 <i2pRelay> <toran> :-? why would sipa suggest something that doesn't exist?
 927 2013-08-18 20:08:23 <sipa> toran: it's theory
 928 2013-08-18 20:08:30 <sipa> and it is interesting in this context
 929 2013-08-18 20:08:39 <sipa> but it's probably years away from being usable
 930 2013-08-18 20:08:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: now having read his initial question, yea. He's likely not even helped by a merkleized ast to compress the signature (randomly elect 5 signers) because an attack (a dishonest group of five voters) has a verifier oracle and can search for a nonce that makes it elect them.
 931 2013-08-18 20:09:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: it doesn't solve the identity establishing, as i told him
 932 2013-08-18 20:09:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: that too.
 933 2013-08-18 20:10:00 <sipa> if everyone knows all potential verifiers in advance, and trust them to be different identities (from those needed to be verified), there may be a solution
 934 2013-08-18 20:10:00 PrimeStunna has joined
 935 2013-08-18 20:10:10 <sipa> still doesn't solve bribing, though
 936 2013-08-18 20:10:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: unless say the AST stuff can read the hash of the blocks that mine its scriptpubkey, I guess, then the voters are selected when the vote transaction is created.
 937 2013-08-18 20:10:32 Skav has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 939 2013-08-18 20:10:47 <gmaxwell> Better to just use trusted oracles for this.
 940 2013-08-18 20:10:58 <i2pRelay> <toran> sipa, maybe i could do that, then update the list of potentials every week or so?
 941 2013-08-18 20:11:18 <sipa> yes, i don't think there's a solution inside bitcoin
 942 2013-08-18 20:11:27 <gmaxwell> toran: who would update it? if you trust them to do that, why not just have them be a party that holds a key for the funds?
 943 2013-08-18 20:11:35 <sipa> as that would only make sense if you require zero-trust
 944 2013-08-18 20:11:42 <sipa> which this solution isn't going to be anyway
 945 2013-08-18 20:12:04 <i2pRelay> <toran> gmaxwell, what is a trusted oracle?
 946 2013-08-18 20:12:22 <michagogo> A party that you trust
 947 2013-08-18 20:12:26 <michagogo> That will do x when y happens
 948 2013-08-18 20:12:27 <i2pRelay> <toran> because people may decide they don't want to be a verifier anymore, new users may discover the network, some people will get hit by buses, ...
 949 2013-08-18 20:12:31 <gmaxwell> toran: basically the nature of this problem is unsolvable under _zero_ trust, you must trust some parties (maybe a collection of them) to be honest in some ways.  If you have that trust then you can solve the problem more directly using it.
 950 2013-08-18 20:13:41 Applica__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 951 2013-08-18 20:13:46 <i2pRelay> <toran> i was planning on using Freenet's Web of Trust plugin, is that relevant to this "zero trust" question?
 952 2013-08-18 20:14:07 <gmaxwell> toran: In this context an oracle is a sealed up computer that runs a program you've specified, and according to that program can generate keys and sign transactions.  So if you figure out computer-implementable rules for your scheme, you tell them to an oracle, the oracle follows the rules and signs for you.
 953 2013-08-18 20:14:29 Application has joined
 954 2013-08-18 20:14:52 <i2pRelay> <toran> so this system couldn't be completely decentralized?
 955 2013-08-18 20:14:59 <gmaxwell> toran: the oracle's integrity can be protected by multiple mechenisms, and you can use a vote of 3 out of 4 oracles to control disposition of your funds.
 956 2013-08-18 20:15:20 <sipa> the whole notion of having "people" in your equation implies it can't be completely decentralized
 957 2013-08-18 20:15:27 <i2pRelay> <toran> why would you need a vote of multiple oracles?
 958 2013-08-18 20:15:30 <gmaxwell> toran: the question you're asking isn't even well defined in a decentralized context. You keep asking about "people" and updating rules and such.
 959 2013-08-18 20:15:40 <sipa> as you need some authority to determine they are people
 960 2013-08-18 20:15:52 <sipa> or trusting them to be
 961 2013-08-18 20:15:57 <sipa> (like a web of trust does)
 962 2013-08-18 20:16:06 <i2pRelay> <toran> the Web of Trust uses captchas, is that what you mean?
 963 2013-08-18 20:16:11 <sipa> ...
 964 2013-08-18 20:16:12 <gmaxwell> ...
 965 2013-08-18 20:16:18 <sipa> i don't think we can help you
 966 2013-08-18 20:16:30 <i2pRelay> <toran> :-(
 967 2013-08-18 20:16:38 <i2pRelay> <toran> what's wrong with captchas?
 968 2013-08-18 20:17:32 <gmaxwell> They can't be used as a non-interactive and (thus) decenteralized way to tell someone is a person (and certantly not a single person)
 969 2013-08-18 20:17:44 <gmaxwell> s/single/unique/ really
 970 2013-08-18 20:18:37 <i2pRelay> <toran> so you mean i would need trust and captchas to verify each identity is both human *and* a different person?
 971 2013-08-18 20:18:47 agnostic98 has joined
 972 2013-08-18 20:18:55 <sipa> if you have trust, you don't need captchas
 973 2013-08-18 20:19:56 <i2pRelay> <toran> i think i'm getting confused by your terminology; what, specifically, do you mean by trust?
 974 2013-08-18 20:20:10 <i2pRelay> <toran> just "hoping" they're a person? some kind of server they log into that assigns them an identity?
 975 2013-08-18 20:20:12 <gmaxwell> captchas do absolutely nothing for you here. You're deeply confused if you're mentioning them at all.
 976 2013-08-18 20:20:20 <i2pRelay> <toran> a proof of work that takes two weeks?
 977 2013-08-18 20:20:32 <i2pRelay> <toran> i am deeply confused!
 978 2013-08-18 20:20:56 <sipa> by trust i mean having some way outside of the system where the people involved know eachother to be different people
 979 2013-08-18 20:21:14 <i2pRelay> <toran> how do captchas not help? sipa said i need authority to determine they are people, and captchas determine if the user is a human
 980 2013-08-18 20:21:34 <sipa> who validates the captchas?
 981 2013-08-18 20:21:39 <phantomcircuit> you're trying to determine that they're a unique person
 982 2013-08-18 20:21:45 <gmaxwell> I need to go have lunch. have fun guys.
 983 2013-08-18 20:21:45 <phantomcircuit> which a captcha doesn't help with
 984 2013-08-18 20:22:06 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: they also don't even help in the non-unique case in a decenteralized and untrusted context.
 985 2013-08-18 20:22:45 <i2pRelay> <toran> i'm not familiar with the details of Freenet's Web of Trust plugin,
 986 2013-08-18 20:22:47 <gmaxwell> Captchas are an interactive proof. Interactive proofs don't generally help decenteralized systems, as they only convince a single party.
 987 2013-08-18 20:22:58 <i2pRelay> <toran> but i think other WoT identites verify the captcchas
 988 2013-08-18 20:23:00 robocoin_afk is now known as robocoin
 989 2013-08-18 20:23:01 <sipa> toran: just answer my question: who validates the captches?
 990 2013-08-18 20:23:15 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 991 2013-08-18 20:23:18 <i2pRelay> <toran> other identities
 992 2013-08-18 20:23:21 <sipa> ok you're again talking about a web of trust
 993 2013-08-18 20:23:26 <sipa> you don't have identities even yet
 994 2013-08-18 20:23:38 <i2pRelay> <toran> yes, Freenet's Web of Trust plugin
 995 2013-08-18 20:23:44 <sipa> yes, if the identities trust eachother through a web of trust, there is no problem
 996 2013-08-18 20:23:46 <i2pRelay> <toran> why not?
 997 2013-08-18 20:23:49 <sipa> but you don't need bitcoin in that case
 998 2013-08-18 20:23:58 <sipa> just find someone trustable enough to deal with it
 999 2013-08-18 20:24:02 <sipa> and send him the money
1000 2013-08-18 20:24:09 <i2pRelay> <toran> why not, where do people donate to for the task?
1001 2013-08-18 20:24:19 <sipa> to a trusted person
1002 2013-08-18 20:24:47 <i2pRelay> * toran is thinking
1003 2013-08-18 20:25:22 <i2pRelay> <toran> so there's no way to do it without trusting someone?
1004 2013-08-18 20:25:30 <sipa> ok
1005 2013-08-18 20:25:33 <i2pRelay> <toran> 'cause he could just leave with all the money
1006 2013-08-18 20:25:38 <sipa> read these 3 words aloud
1007 2013-08-18 20:25:41 <sipa> web
1008 2013-08-18 20:25:42 <sipa> of
1009 2013-08-18 20:25:43 <sipa> TRUST
1010 2013-08-18 20:26:11 <i2pRelay> <toran> i'm not familiar with what that is aside from the Freenet plugin
1011 2013-08-18 20:26:23 <sipa> (hint: it's about trusting people)
1012 2013-08-18 20:26:31 <sipa> please
1013 2013-08-18 20:26:34 <sipa> take this elsewhere
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1018 2013-08-18 20:32:08 <Diablo-D3> sipa: trusting people is overrated
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1022 2013-08-18 20:43:13 <Zoop_> trusting algorithms is underrated
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1054 2013-08-18 21:42:06 <Wild0wnes> wondering if a bunch of miners went offline look at transaction estimates
1055 2013-08-18 21:42:41 <Wild0wnes> 36 hours 19hrs... is that unusual?
1056 2013-08-18 21:42:46 iwilcox has joined
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1059 2013-08-18 21:45:59 <warren> hmm, if http://blockchain.info/ is correct, BTC has had no blocks in over an hour.
1060 2013-08-18 21:46:28 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
1061 2013-08-18 21:46:55 <Wild0wnes> the estimate is based on hashrate and difficulty ya?
1062 2013-08-18 21:47:15 <Wild0wnes> so would still say 15 minutes if all was well wouldn't it?
1063 2013-08-18 21:47:17 <warren> don't look at the estimate, look at the blocks themselves
1064 2013-08-18 21:47:51 <Wild0wnes> so just a tricky block?
1065 2013-08-18 21:48:04 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1066 2013-08-18 21:48:30 <sipa> ;;tblb 1h
1067 2013-08-18 21:48:31 <gribble> Error: '1h' is not a valid positive integer.
1068 2013-08-18 21:48:34 <sipa> ;;tblb 3600
1069 2013-08-18 21:48:35 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 2 weeks, 1 day, 10 hours, 32 minutes, and 3 seconds
1070 2013-08-18 21:48:43 <michagogo> warren: bc.i is wrong
1071 2013-08-18 21:48:51 <warren> ok
1072 2013-08-18 21:48:55 <sipa> ;;tslb
1073 2013-08-18 21:48:57 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 hour, 17 minutes, and 6 seconds
1074 2013-08-18 21:48:59 <michagogo> I have 252902 blocks on my node
1075 2013-08-18 21:49:16 <michagogo> Where does tslb come from?
1076 2013-08-18 21:49:18 <michagogo> ;;blocks
1077 2013-08-18 21:49:18 <gribble> 252894
1078 2013-08-18 21:49:39 * michagogo wouldn't be surprised to hear that gribble just pulls from bc.i
1079 2013-08-18 21:49:55 * michagogo wonders if ,,(seen nanotube) is around
1080 2013-08-18 21:49:55 <gribble> nanotube was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 hours, 44 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <nanotube> hardfalcon: fwiw, your msg got cut off at 'bitcoin-qt sou'
1081 2013-08-18 21:50:15 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
1082 2013-08-18 21:50:17 patcon has joined
1083 2013-08-18 21:50:21 <michagogo> Hmm, idle time <15 mins
1084 2013-08-18 21:50:25 * michagogo pings nanotube
1085 2013-08-18 21:50:59 <warren> I don't have any bitcoin nodes anymore.  I run only bitcoin testnet.
1086 2013-08-18 21:51:02 <michagogo> http://blockexplorer.com/ agrees with my node
1087 2013-08-18 21:52:22 <jcorgan> is gribble documented or do i just hang out long enough to see everyone use it :)
1088 2013-08-18 21:53:03 <michagogo> jcorgan: ,,help
1089 2013-08-18 21:53:03 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
1090 2013-08-18 21:54:07 <michagogo> jcorgan: Also, with the "list" command you can see a list of modules, or specify a module to get a list of its commands
1091 2013-08-18 21:54:08 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1092 2013-08-18 21:54:58 <jcorgan> ah, i see it's bitcoin specific command documented on the wiki
1093 2013-08-18 21:55:09 <jcorgan> it's -> its  grrr
1094 2013-08-18 21:55:22 santoscork has joined
1095 2013-08-18 21:55:50 <nanotube> michagogo: sup
1096 2013-08-18 21:55:56 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1097 2013-08-18 21:56:17 <michagogo> nanotube: What does gribble pull from for ,,tslb and ,,blocks ?
1098 2013-08-18 21:56:19 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 hour, 24 minutes, and 28 seconds
1099 2013-08-18 21:56:20 <gribble> 252894
1100 2013-08-18 21:56:30 <michagogo> Is it, by any chance, blockchain.info?
1101 2013-08-18 21:56:36 <nanotube> michagogo: yes it is,
1102 2013-08-18 21:56:39 chorao has joined
1103 2013-08-18 21:56:54 <Wild0wnes> check this out:
1104 2013-08-18 21:56:56 <Wild0wnes> http://blockexplorer.com/q/getdifficulty
1105 2013-08-18 21:57:00 <michagogo> Because bc.i's blocks seem to be frozen
1106 2013-08-18 21:57:00 <Wild0wnes> current difficulty
1107 2013-08-18 21:57:04 <sipa> last block was 12 minutes ago
1108 2013-08-18 21:57:09 <Wild0wnes> http://blockexplorer.com/q/estimate
1109 2013-08-18 21:57:11 <nanotube> michagogo: yea guess they need to fix something.
1110 2013-08-18 21:57:13 <michagogo> There are 252902 blocks
1111 2013-08-18 21:57:15 <Wild0wnes> extimated next
1112 2013-08-18 21:57:15 <michagogo> And what sipa said
1113 2013-08-18 21:57:22 CodeShark has joined
1114 2013-08-18 21:57:33 <michagogo> nanotube: How come you use bc.i, btw?
1115 2013-08-18 21:57:34 <Wild0wnes> going up quite a bit
1116 2013-08-18 21:57:44 <nanotube> michagogo: i use b.i and bbe as backup
1117 2013-08-18 21:57:56 <sipa> nanotube: what format do you need data in?
1118 2013-08-18 21:57:59 <michagogo> nanotube: How come it hasn't failed over?
1119 2013-08-18 21:58:11 <nanotube> michagogo: because it isn't failing. it just feeds bad data. :)
1120 2013-08-18 21:58:11 <jcorgan> bci seems to go down a lot, surprising for what otherwise appears as well written site
1121 2013-08-18 21:58:12 <michagogo> Or does it only try bbe if bc.i is completely down?
1122 2013-08-18 21:58:28 <nanotube> michagogo: righto
1123 2013-08-18 21:58:49 <michagogo> That should change. :P
1124 2013-08-18 21:58:51 <nanotube> sipa: well, same as b.i and bbe/q. and for some stuff i also pull the full block json.
1125 2013-08-18 21:59:23 <nanotube> michagogo: been planning to just run a local daemon and not deal with the third party services... but haven't got around to it.
1126 2013-08-18 22:00:20 <Wild0wnes> interesting to note:   i processed a transaction through blockchain.info and it cleared where i sent it... but they still show on blockchain.info as unconfirmed
1127 2013-08-18 22:00:22 <CodeShark> running a local daemon is a whole lot less trouble and less time consuming than hacking around third party services :)
1128 2013-08-18 22:01:29 <michagogo> Wild0wnes: If that happened in the past ,,tslb, it's confirmed, but bc.i hasn't processed that block so it's not showing as confirmed.
1129 2013-08-18 22:01:29 <gribble> Error: "tslb," is not a valid command.
1130 2013-08-18 22:01:40 <michagogo> Erm
1131 2013-08-18 22:01:47 <michagogo> The last ,,tslb *
1132 2013-08-18 22:01:49 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 hour, 29 minutes, and 58 seconds
1133 2013-08-18 22:02:02 <jcorgan> codeshark: i only leave a small amount of BTC in a blockchain.info wallet to use its iOS client for small spends
1134 2013-08-18 22:02:38 <michagogo> ;;bcauth
1135 2013-08-18 22:02:38 <gribble> (bcauth <nick>) -- Initiate authentication for user <nick>. You must have registered with the bot with a bitcoin address for this to work. You will be given a random passphrase to sign with your address, and submit to the bot with the 'bcverify' command. Your passphrase will expire within 10 minutes.
1136 2013-08-18 22:02:46 <michagogo> ;;bcauth michagogo
1137 2013-08-18 22:02:46 <gribble> Request successful for user michagogo, hostmask michagogo!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:5ba3fcb2666ee48a10742158adbe793f4a776fc604417fff6a8d565b
1138 2013-08-18 22:03:02 <michagogo>  ;;bcverify G+71MOHaZ0bVbo0pp9sdD31o5xTWXNAr4w4NAAvNHsExNLlwwByl5lA4sO6/JEtNOVcIrfc2EdUb4LwJsN/80Wc=
1139 2013-08-18 22:03:07 <michagogo> ;;bcverify G+71MOHaZ0bVbo0pp9sdD31o5xTWXNAr4w4NAAvNHsExNLlwwByl5lA4sO6/JEtNOVcIrfc2EdUb4LwJsN/80Wc=
1140 2013-08-18 22:03:09 <gribble> You are now authenticated for user 'michagogo' with address 18xRDaxdJudfk5U943GNTsWfvg1soouPbc
1141 2013-08-18 22:04:12 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1142 2013-08-18 22:04:41 <CodeShark> jcorgan: if you're talking about just a personal wallet you use to buy stuff for yourself and you don't really care if it isn't available 100% of the time that's fine
1143 2013-08-18 22:05:43 <CodeShark> jcorgan: I thought we were talking about running a site or building some other services atop these third parties
1144 2013-08-18 22:06:23 <michagogo> Ah, looks like bc.i is back up and running, and with it (presumably) ,,tslb and ,,blocks
1145 2013-08-18 22:06:27 <gribble> Time since last block: 21 minutes and 24 seconds
1146 2013-08-18 22:06:28 <gribble> 252902
1147 2013-08-18 22:06:36 <michagogo> Hmm
1148 2013-08-18 22:06:42 <michagogo> Not fully up to date...
1149 2013-08-18 22:06:54 <michagogo> that should be <1 minute and -904
1150 2013-08-18 22:06:59 <michagogo> Which bc.i *does* show
1151 2013-08-18 22:07:07 joepie91 has joined
1152 2013-08-18 22:07:07 <michagogo> :-/
1153 2013-08-18 22:07:24 <michagogo> Are ,,tslb and ,,blocks cached somewhere?
1154 2013-08-18 22:07:27 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 minute and 15 seconds
1155 2013-08-18 22:07:28 <gribble> 252904
1156 2013-08-18 22:07:35 JDuke128 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1157 2013-08-18 22:07:42 <michagogo> Ah
1158 2013-08-18 22:08:41 JDuke128 has joined
1159 2013-08-18 22:09:02 <jcorgan> codeshark: yeah, i jumped in without following the 10 minute rule
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