1 2013-08-19 00:02:00 segy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2 2013-08-19 00:04:02 <warren> grr, how to generate lots of entropy in a VM ...
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11 2013-08-19 00:20:24 <phantomcircuit> warren, does it have to be high quality?
12 2013-08-19 00:21:15 <gmaxwell> I wish the code for this weren't so large: http://www.issihosts.com/haveged/
13 2013-08-19 00:21:31 <gmaxwell> otherwise I'd say that perhaps bitcoin software should just merge it as a supplimental entropy source.
14 2013-08-19 00:22:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, havege is slightly dangerous in a vm
15 2013-08-19 00:22:29 <phantomcircuit> since a number of the things it's relying on being random are actually not
16 2013-08-19 00:22:41 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: a supplimental entropy source doesn't make things worse (well, unless your alternative is noticing you're out of entropy and refusing to run)
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29 2013-08-19 00:47:56 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: it could be a compile-time option whether to use it
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31 2013-08-19 00:50:13 <CodeShark> or it could be built into a separate process which bitcoind can optionally ask for entropy
32 2013-08-19 00:50:20 <CodeShark> perhaps even better
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34 2013-08-19 00:51:30 <CodeShark> or nvm :p
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43 2013-08-19 01:06:17 <Vinnie_win> Where in the Ubuntu filesystem do I put boost_1_54_0 ?
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45 2013-08-19 01:09:13 <SomeoneWeird> /dev/null
46 2013-08-19 01:09:14 * SomeoneWeird runs
47 2013-08-19 01:17:44 <warren> sipa: btw, how is headers-first coming?
48 2013-08-19 01:17:53 <sipa> haven't had enough time
49 2013-08-19 01:18:05 <sipa> need a few things to fix, plus rebase with the fork detection stuff
50 2013-08-19 01:18:11 <sipa> which probably means rewriting that
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120 2013-08-19 03:38:28 <jgarzik> hrm
121 2013-08-19 03:38:37 <jgarzik> this javascript block parsing is shockingly slow
122 2013-08-19 03:38:48 <Diablo-D3> >javascript
123 2013-08-19 03:38:49 <Diablo-D3> >slow
124 2013-08-19 03:38:51 <jgarzik> several minutes, just to get to block header 72000
125 2013-08-19 03:38:53 <Diablo-D3> GEE I WONDER
126 2013-08-19 03:39:13 <Diablo-D3> what browser
127 2013-08-19 03:39:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: Yeah, I'm still trying to get to block 100 on my babbage machine.
128 2013-08-19 03:39:24 <Diablo-D3> because chrome has shit js performance
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134 2013-08-19 03:46:42 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, This is not chrome, nor any browser
135 2013-08-19 03:47:02 <Diablo-D3> er, node.js?
136 2013-08-19 03:47:17 <Diablo-D3> might as well be chrome then, its v8
137 2013-08-19 03:47:25 <jgarzik> This is JIT'd node.js, which seems slower than non-JIT'd python.
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140 2013-08-19 03:51:27 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: I wouldnt doubt it
141 2013-08-19 03:52:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there are a bunch of things you can do to improve JS performance, mostly that involve being sensitive to where your code is triggering copying and garbage collection. But I'm mostly clueless to that stuff, so I can't give much advice.
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143 2013-08-19 03:53:59 <jgarzik> might be that I'm abusing it
144 2013-08-19 03:54:20 <jgarzik> my header database links each block object to the previous one
145 2013-08-19 03:54:39 <jgarzik> and there are secondary indices that add further references to block headers
146 2013-08-19 03:54:58 <jgarzik> simply storing in level db rather than memory might fix the problem
147 2013-08-19 03:55:14 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, that's pretty much the worst possible case for the gc
148 2013-08-19 03:55:22 <phantomcircuit> which tried to do cycle detection
149 2013-08-19 03:55:24 <jgarzik> though it pains me to put the header db in leveldb, rather than RAM
150 2013-08-19 03:55:25 <phantomcircuit> tries*
151 2013-08-19 03:59:02 Vinnie_win has joined
152 2013-08-19 03:59:08 dkog has joined
153 2013-08-19 03:59:35 <Vinnie_win> so what's all this about the controversy over my pull request regarding the subtree?
154 2013-08-19 04:01:34 Diapolis has joined
155 2013-08-19 04:01:36 <jgarzik> I also wonder how well node's hash tables can handle a table of size 250,000
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158 2013-08-19 04:05:20 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i would guess pretty well actually
159 2013-08-19 04:05:33 <phantomcircuit> i bet a bunch of the internal language stuff is actually based on hash tables
160 2013-08-19 04:05:40 <jgarzik> one hopes
161 2013-08-19 04:06:09 * jgarzik could probably rewrite to have an in-ram hash table of block headers, then store the hashes in various other data structures, rather than a direct reference
162 2013-08-19 04:06:36 <jgarzik> keeps everything happily refcount==1
163 2013-08-19 04:06:50 <jgarzik> no circular references
164 2013-08-19 04:07:01 <sipa> Vinnie_win: we rewrote history in the bitcoin/leveldb repo, to clearly build on the official leveldb repo, and then got-subtree merged it into bitcoin
165 2013-08-19 04:07:14 <sipa> Vinnie_win: worked surprisingly well
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179 2013-08-19 04:25:08 <hardfalcon> Luke-Jr / sipa: seems that the openssl folks have fixed padlock support in the meantime, everything works as it should on my machine (this wasn't the case a few months ago, I'm now using 1.0.1e), and openssl does even use the hardware accelerated montgomery multiplicator for RSA and DSA
180 2013-08-19 04:26:09 <hardfalcon> given the fact that the bitcoin sources include <openssl/sha.h> and a few other openssl headers, I assume that bitcoin-qt uses those optimizations already
181 2013-08-19 04:26:59 <phantomcircuit> hardfalcon, maybe maybe not
182 2013-08-19 04:27:12 <phantomcircuit> iirc openssl needs you to pass an engine parameter to use padlock
183 2013-08-19 04:27:17 <hardfalcon> nope
184 2013-08-19 04:27:20 <phantomcircuit> which bitcoin certainly doesn't provide
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186 2013-08-19 04:27:28 <phantomcircuit> hardfalcon, you can set a default engine?
187 2013-08-19 04:27:29 <hardfalcon> you can enable it in /etc/ssl/openssl.cnf
188 2013-08-19 04:27:37 <hardfalcon> and on my machine it is enabled by default
189 2013-08-19 04:27:51 <phantomcircuit> then maybe
190 2013-08-19 04:27:52 <hardfalcon> as I've set the padlock engine as default in that config file, of course
191 2013-08-19 04:28:08 <phantomcircuit> iirc openssl is used for ecdsa SHA256 RIPEMD160
192 2013-08-19 04:28:10 <phantomcircuit> and nothing else
193 2013-08-19 04:28:29 <hardfalcon> well, sha256 is hw accelerated then
194 2013-08-19 04:28:33 <phantomcircuit> im not sure any of those would see a significant improvement from padlock
195 2013-08-19 04:28:41 <hardfalcon> for ecdsa I don't know
196 2013-08-19 04:28:45 <phantomcircuit> hardfalcon, yeah except they're short hashes
197 2013-08-19 04:28:52 <phantomcircuit> so it might actually be slower
198 2013-08-19 04:29:23 <phantomcircuit> hw acceleration of hash functions tends to be focused on hashing large amounts of data
199 2013-08-19 04:29:26 <phantomcircuit> like ssl connections
200 2013-08-19 04:29:32 <phantomcircuit> not 80 byte block headers
201 2013-08-19 04:30:27 <hardfalcon> yes, Luke-Jr showed me a great paper about montgomery multiplication with the padlock engine and how efficiency scales there with different keysizes
202 2013-08-19 04:30:45 <hardfalcon> no the hash function is extremely performant
203 2013-08-19 04:31:12 <phantomcircuit> shrug
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205 2013-08-19 04:31:25 <phantomcircuit> even so sha256 on a modern cpu is only like 2 microseconds
206 2013-08-19 04:31:42 <hardfalcon> well not on a via nano cpu ;)
207 2013-08-19 04:32:15 <hardfalcon> we're talking of a 1.2ghz dualcore CPU with a computational power in the range of an intel atom cpu
208 2013-08-19 04:34:15 <hardfalcon> openssl speed -evp sha256
209 2013-08-19 04:34:15 <hardfalcon> type 16 bytes 64 bytes 256 bytes 1024 bytes 8192 bytes
210 2013-08-19 04:34:15 <hardfalcon> sha256 8821.02k 20872.01k 37887.05k 47520.11k 51252.23k
211 2013-08-19 04:34:22 <hardfalcon> (with the padlock engine)
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214 2013-08-19 04:39:14 <phantomcircuit> hardfalcon,
215 2013-08-19 04:39:15 <phantomcircuit> type 16 bytes 64 bytes 256 bytes 1024 bytes 8192 bytes
216 2013-08-19 04:39:15 <phantomcircuit> sha256 31017.82k 72729.71k 131471.93k 163056.64k 175551.83k
217 2013-08-19 04:39:18 <phantomcircuit> i3-2100
218 2013-08-19 04:39:26 <phantomcircuit> not even the fastest cpu i have on this desk
219 2013-08-19 04:39:37 <hardfalcon> argh sry
220 2013-08-19 04:39:44 <hardfalcon> got something confused
221 2013-08-19 04:40:32 <hardfalcon> the padlock engine doesn't work with the archlinux stock package of openss, it only works with a package that I compiled by mysef some time ago
222 2013-08-19 04:41:04 <hardfalcon> had forgotten that and reinstaled openssl from the normal repositories this afternoon because I had fucked up a config file
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225 2013-08-19 04:45:21 <hardfalcon> but strange enough there is no difference on whether I use the padlock engine or not, the benchmark results stay the same
226 2013-08-19 04:45:52 <hardfalcon> even when I delete /usr/lib/engines/libpadlock.so
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228 2013-08-19 04:48:46 <hardfalcon> anyhow, I've just checked with gnutls-cli --benchmark-ciphers and gnutls-cli --benchmark-soft-ciphers
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230 2013-08-19 04:49:56 <hardfalcon> --benchmark-ciphers (this one uses the padlock engine) gives 0.31 GB/sec for SHA256, whilst --benchmark-soft-ciphers only gives 47.21 MB/sec (both with a payload size of 16384, though)
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260 2013-08-19 06:04:32 <warren> Luke-Jr: sorry I keep losing this, what git command adds the origin-pull thing again?
261 2013-08-19 06:07:33 eoss has joined
262 2013-08-19 06:07:59 <warren> nevermind, https://gist.github.com/piscisaureus/3342247
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280 2013-08-19 06:48:08 <oleganza> lianj: hi there
281 2013-08-19 06:48:26 <oleganza> well, looks like nickserv let me in finally.
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300 2013-08-19 07:09:26 swulf-- has joined
301 2013-08-19 07:09:54 <swulf--> can someone confirm that there was two blocks at height 252481 generated?
302 2013-08-19 07:10:51 <swulf--> block 0000000000000049ffe667048ee8901f5609c48a9ff71319445d19bf7c1b09dc doesn't seem to be available on any block explorer, but I'm sitting here looking at it in my client
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307 2013-08-19 07:25:59 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-16 16:30:22 got inventory: block 0000000000000049ffe667048ee8901f5609c48a9ff71319445d19bf7c1b09dc new
308 2013-08-19 07:26:02 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-16 16:30:22 askfor block 0000000000000049ffe667048ee8901f5609c48a9ff71319445d19bf7c1b09dc 0 (00:00:00)
309 2013-08-19 07:26:05 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-16 16:30:22 sending getdata: block 0000000000000049ffe667048ee8901f5609c48a9ff71319445d19bf7c1b09dc
310 2013-08-19 07:26:08 <gmaxwell> 2013-08-16 16:30:23 received block 0000000000000049ffe667048ee8901f5609c48a9ff71319445d19bf7c1b09dc
311 2013-08-19 07:26:57 <gmaxwell> I never setbest it, so I assume it was already orphan when I fetched it.
312 2013-08-19 07:27:16 coeus has joined
313 2013-08-19 07:27:46 <swulf--> ahh
314 2013-08-19 07:27:53 <swulf--> so it does exist
315 2013-08-19 07:28:09 * swulf-- shakes a finger at blockchain.info for not letting me view orphaned blocks
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320 2013-08-19 07:32:57 <theymos> Did you guys see that Liraz Siri released the blockexplorer.com source? He's looking for help in improving it. https://github.com/lirazsiri/blockexplorer
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390 2013-08-19 09:11:44 <Luke-Jr> maaku: your signature on the 0.9 ML thread is invalid O.o
391 2013-08-19 09:12:17 <sipa> and you should feel invalid.
392 2013-08-19 09:13:10 <Luke-Jr> o.O
393 2013-08-19 09:13:32 <Luke-Jr> he should?
394 2013-08-19 09:13:34 awishformore has joined
395 2013-08-19 09:13:59 <sipa> (it's a meme, don't take it seriously)
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399 2013-08-19 09:18:14 <Luke-Jr> o
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454 2013-08-19 11:02:20 <drizztbsd> hi, do you know BDB is migrated to AGPL? will you always use it?
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456 2013-08-19 11:03:18 <sipa> we've been wanting to get rid of it for a long time
457 2013-08-19 11:03:26 <sipa> but it means incompatible wallets, etc
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459 2013-08-19 11:03:56 <drizztbsd> so? no way? :)
460 2013-08-19 11:04:14 <sipa> sure way
461 2013-08-19 11:04:25 <sipa> just needs some time
462 2013-08-19 11:04:31 <drizztbsd> oh ok
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464 2013-08-19 11:11:29 <CodeShark> for a time the bdb support could be retained in parallel with some other storage engine to allow people to easily convert their wallets
465 2013-08-19 11:11:48 <sipa> sure
466 2013-08-19 11:11:58 <sipa> and after that a separate conversion tool could be shipped
467 2013-08-19 11:12:09 <sipa> but first we need a different wallet format in the first place :)
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469 2013-08-19 11:15:06 <drizztbsd> xml?
470 2013-08-19 11:15:07 * drizztbsd hides
471 2013-08-19 11:15:11 <CodeShark> lol
472 2013-08-19 11:15:38 <sipa> how about ASN.1?
473 2013-08-19 11:15:51 <TD> a brilliant format for sure
474 2013-08-19 11:16:04 <sipa> with a EBCDIC for string characters
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518 2013-08-19 12:50:07 <theorbtwo> Don't forget to encrypt it, and then ascii-armor it... and then convert the ascii to utf16.
519 2013-08-19 12:50:44 <marcusw> b32 it, then b64 the b32 just to be sure
520 2013-08-19 12:51:21 <sipa> please add some error correction codes. kthxbye.
521 2013-08-19 12:52:54 <drizztbsd> and rot13
522 2013-08-19 12:53:03 <sipa> triple-rot13
523 2013-08-19 12:53:16 <drizztbsd> lol sounds like a triple-xor :P
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525 2013-08-19 12:53:41 <marcusw> crc32 it
526 2013-08-19 12:53:45 <tgs3> also add BOM in front
527 2013-08-19 12:53:52 <marcusw> I read that's a good thing to do on forbes
528 2013-08-19 12:53:58 <tgs3> so it's more notepad.exe compatible
529 2013-08-19 12:54:56 <marcusw> MS newlines obviously
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532 2013-08-19 12:57:52 <sipa> drizztbsd: yes but triple xor is just xor; triple-rot13 is obviously rot39
533 2013-08-19 12:58:36 <CodeShark> what group is generated by xor and rot13? :)
534 2013-08-19 12:59:02 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
535 2013-08-19 12:59:35 <CodeShark> and the vector of alternating bits
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537 2013-08-19 13:02:44 <CodeShark> the Klein four-group?
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671 2013-08-19 15:18:26 <TD> gmaxwell: how comes the OTR whitespace trick uses whitespaces that are so verbose and annoying? i just had to switch off OTR because my brother was complaining that every line i sent had tons of random whitespace after it
672 2013-08-19 15:19:39 <handle> lol yeah, I've noticed that as well
673 2013-08-19 15:20:04 <handle> maybe it's so that more information can be stored in the whitespace? though I think it's the same every time and is just used to identify OTR
674 2013-08-19 15:20:16 <handle> that said, isn't it just a combination of tabs and spaces?
675 2013-08-19 15:21:42 <TD> i assume it's so large it causes a lot of wrapping in small text boxes
676 2013-08-19 15:21:55 <TD> there must be a better way to do that. unicode provides a variety of non-printing control characters
677 2013-08-19 15:22:02 CodeShar_ has joined
678 2013-08-19 15:22:03 <TD> you could reverse text direction three times and i bet that'd be a unique signature
679 2013-08-19 15:22:12 <TD> or at least not append the whitespace to every single message!
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683 2013-08-19 15:24:15 <sipa_> TD: i bet you'll get complains about people seeing tons of weird characters if you use unicode :D
684 2013-08-19 15:25:30 <marcusw> your broken unicode, your problem
685 2013-08-19 15:26:05 <sipa_> hahaha
686 2013-08-19 15:26:08 <sipa_> right :D
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689 2013-08-19 15:26:58 <sipa> good luck with that
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691 2013-08-19 15:28:54 <Luke-Jr> yeah
692 2013-08-19 15:29:05 <Luke-Jr> I added unicode to BFGMiner. Now I had to make it opt-in :/
693 2013-08-19 15:30:20 <sipa> works fine for me :)
694 2013-08-19 15:31:28 <marcusw> meanwhile on nameless irc, unicode allowed everywhere
695 2013-08-19 15:31:34 <marcusw> even in nicks and chan names
696 2013-08-19 15:32:26 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you don't use Chinese Windows :/
697 2013-08-19 15:32:34 <sipa> Luke-Jr: thank god.
698 2013-08-19 15:32:52 * Luke-Jr would have thought Chinese OS had *better* Unicode support, but .. wtf
699 2013-08-19 15:33:46 eoss has joined
700 2013-08-19 15:34:12 <_ingsoc> Who the hell uses a Chinese OS?
701 2013-08-19 15:34:18 <_ingsoc> Except for the Chinese, etc.
702 2013-08-19 15:34:26 <Graet> mainly chinese people
703 2013-08-19 15:34:48 <sipa> maybe there are more of those than people using an English OS :)
704 2013-08-19 15:35:16 <_ingsoc> You're right, sipa. I'll be honest and say my world isn't very big. :(
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707 2013-08-19 15:37:18 <marcusw> sometimes, I feel like it's a good thing they have their own LAN
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710 2013-08-19 15:40:35 <Graet> anyone with ops in #bitcoin ?
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728 2013-08-19 16:06:06 <arioBarzan> is it possible to mine on local network?
729 2013-08-19 16:06:25 <arioBarzan> without connecting to any other node
730 2013-08-19 16:06:38 <Scrat> I have a local blockchain :)
731 2013-08-19 16:06:47 <Scrat> problem is that noone else is accepting it
732 2013-08-19 16:07:20 <arioBarzan> that is not a problem for me. I need it just for learning some stuff
733 2013-08-19 16:07:39 <arioBarzan> how could I have a local blockchain
734 2013-08-19 16:07:42 <arioBarzan> ?
735 2013-08-19 16:08:00 <drizztbsd> arioBarzan: testnet
736 2013-08-19 16:08:36 <arioBarzan> isn't it possible on main net?
737 2013-08-19 16:09:01 <drizztbsd> without connection to any node?
738 2013-08-19 16:09:07 <arioBarzan> yes
739 2013-08-19 16:09:15 <arioBarzan> When satoshi started mining, I suspect there were no other node. So it should work. But I don't know how.
740 2013-08-19 16:10:44 <arioBarzan> Scrat: how did you run your bitcoind for a local blockchain?
741 2013-08-19 16:10:58 <TheLordOfTime> arioBarzan, probably as testnetinabox or something
742 2013-08-19 16:11:12 <TheLordOfTime> at least for testing
743 2013-08-19 16:11:21 <Scrat> what TLOT said
744 2013-08-19 16:12:24 <arioBarzan> TheLordOfTime: how Satoshi could mine on main net so?
745 2013-08-19 16:12:43 <TheLordOfTime> arioBarzan, you might reread what Scrat said
746 2013-08-19 16:12:47 <TheLordOfTime> <Scrat> I have a local blockchain :)
747 2013-08-19 16:12:47 <TheLordOfTime> <Scrat> problem is that noone else is accepting it
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749 2013-08-19 16:13:45 <TheLordOfTime> if you create your own local chain, it'll always be your own network and only your own network, so how Satoshi started mining is irrelevant if you want to actually mine and get usable worth-something coins
750 2013-08-19 16:14:07 <TheLordOfTime> 'course i mine testnet as part of generating testnet coin for me to test my RPC call programs, but I'm not a full-blown miner ;P
751 2013-08-19 16:14:17 <TheLordOfTime> (testnet in a box helps with that xD)
752 2013-08-19 16:14:36 <drizztbsd> arioBarzan: testnet or main net is the same
753 2013-08-19 16:14:45 <drizztbsd> (protocol & co)
754 2013-08-19 16:16:01 <arioBarzan> I don't care about others accepting those worthless coins that I would make on a local network.
755 2013-08-19 16:17:06 <arioBarzan> I need to mine a block ( which of course would be worthless for others ) just for testing some transactions on a local node.
756 2013-08-19 16:17:27 <drizztbsd> I hope not on real current difficult :P
757 2013-08-19 16:17:33 <jgarzik> mornin'
758 2013-08-19 16:17:37 <handle> that sounds like something that might be best done via unit tests
759 2013-08-19 16:18:19 <arioBarzan> current difficulty is 1 on my local node
760 2013-08-19 16:19:37 <helo> something about needing two nodes...
761 2013-08-19 16:20:18 <arioBarzan> do I need to have at least running two nodes?
762 2013-08-19 16:21:16 <helo> i think i recall someone saying that a while back regarding running an isolated test network...
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764 2013-08-19 16:21:39 <arioBarzan> helo: thansk, I will try that.
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767 2013-08-19 16:23:25 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: this is what testnet is for.
768 2013-08-19 16:23:43 sserrano44 has joined
769 2013-08-19 16:24:19 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: I know. But my question is how satoshi could mine on his node at the first place?
770 2013-08-19 16:24:40 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: Satoshi did not start Bitcoin alone.
771 2013-08-19 16:25:03 gjs278 has joined
772 2013-08-19 16:25:13 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: So what is the minimum number of nodes for a isolated network?
773 2013-08-19 16:25:29 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: 2
774 2013-08-19 16:25:38 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: this is by definition testnet-in-a-box
775 2013-08-19 16:25:38 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: thanks a lot.
776 2013-08-19 16:26:34 <Luke-Jr> np
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778 2013-08-19 16:27:26 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: is there any special trick for that , or it should work if I run the daemons on two nodes on the same local network listening on 8333?
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780 2013-08-19 16:27:58 <helo> -addnode=other_node_ip
781 2013-08-19 16:28:40 <arioBarzan> helo: thanks
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828 2013-08-19 17:37:35 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: it occurs to me that as long as I'm storing my email in a git repo, I should probably timestamp the HEAD commit hash.. you have something setup for that already so I don't bloat the blockchain?
829 2013-08-19 17:38:06 <kinlo> wouldn't it make more sense to put something like that into namecoin?
830 2013-08-19 17:38:16 <kinlo> you can assign a clear name and assign a clear value
831 2013-08-19 17:38:36 <kinlo> instead of hiding the data in a chain not intended for that purpose
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834 2013-08-19 17:39:05 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: well, it really should just be its own timestamp data merged-mined separately from any blockchain
835 2013-08-19 17:39:17 <Luke-Jr> but petertodd I believe has something already timestamping data en masse
836 2013-08-19 17:39:24 CheckDavid has joined
837 2013-08-19 17:39:50 <kinlo> still :)
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874 2013-08-19 18:26:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: jgarzik: luke-jr: RE pull 2910 do try to be somewhat gentle with the new contributor, (though I think I did already warn them that depending on checkpoints was not a good way to go about that)
875 2013-08-19 18:26:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yeah, I just misread it the first time, sorry
876 2013-08-19 18:27:13 <Luke-Jr> I thought they were trying to eliminate the blockchain before the last checkpoint entirely
877 2013-08-19 18:28:18 dust-otc has joined
878 2013-08-19 18:28:23 <gmaxwell> yea, I actually read the title of the pull the same way.
879 2013-08-19 18:28:38 ThomasV has joined
880 2013-08-19 18:29:04 FabianB_ has joined
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882 2013-08-19 18:29:21 <sipa> oh, i wasn't aware i was being unfriendly - i certainly didn't intend to be :(
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885 2013-08-19 18:30:47 <sipa> i agree with the idea in general, just said that the not storing part won't be needed
886 2013-08-19 18:31:07 <an3k> my bitcoin-qt 0.8.3-beta client cannot connect to other nodes anymore, thus I get no data
887 2013-08-19 18:31:12 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: no biggie, it was just a bit of a pile on. :)
888 2013-08-19 18:31:22 <gmaxwell> an3k: how do you know it can't connect?
889 2013-08-19 18:31:27 <gmaxwell> an3k: are you using a proxy?
890 2013-08-19 18:31:32 <an3k> In the debug window I see connections jumping from 0 to 2 back to 0, etc.
891 2013-08-19 18:31:35 <an3k> no proxy
892 2013-08-19 18:32:24 <an3k> the debug log says it tries to connect to a node, gets connected, sends version message and then disconnects.
893 2013-08-19 18:32:44 <gmaxwell> an3k: how long have you left it running? is this on a network which is known for censoring its users?
894 2013-08-19 18:33:18 <an3k> some hours but not a single block was processed. no censoring.
895 2013-08-19 18:33:55 <an3k> what I don't understand in the debug.log: "connected to self at 10.0.0.1:58663, disconnecting"
896 2013-08-19 18:34:06 <an3k> 10.0.0.1 is NOT the computer the bitcoin-qt client runs on
897 2013-08-19 18:34:25 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
898 2013-08-19 18:34:31 <gmaxwell> do you have any connect or addnode in your bitcoin.conf?
899 2013-08-19 18:34:51 <an3k> where is that file located?
900 2013-08-19 18:35:03 <gmaxwell> same place the debug.log exists, if you have one at all.
901 2013-08-19 18:35:15 <an3k> don't have one
902 2013-08-19 18:35:37 <an3k> .locl, db.log, debug.log, peers.dat and wallet.dat
903 2013-08-19 18:35:44 <an3k> i mean .lock
904 2013-08-19 18:36:54 <gmaxwell> can you email me your debug.log? It may contain your IP address and IDs of your transactions, but otherwise no secret data.
905 2013-08-19 18:37:06 <an3k> sure
906 2013-08-19 18:37:41 FabianB_ is now known as FabianB
907 2013-08-19 18:38:11 stephantual has joined
908 2013-08-19 18:38:46 <an3k> to what address should I send it?
909 2013-08-19 18:39:41 <gmaxwell> greg@xiph.org works.
910 2013-08-19 18:40:01 Anduckkk is now known as Anduck
911 2013-08-19 18:41:47 <an3k> wow, never knew you can have an image inside a public key :)
912 2013-08-19 18:42:25 <gmaxwell> Yea, almost no one uses that feature.
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916 2013-08-19 18:44:01 <Luke-Jr> lol
917 2013-08-19 18:44:05 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
918 2013-08-19 18:44:27 <Luke-Jr> tidbit: plaintext email supports a single image too
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920 2013-08-19 18:44:46 <an3k> mail sent
921 2013-08-19 18:44:49 <Luke-Jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Face
922 2013-08-19 18:45:28 * TD put a photo into his public key when he uploaded it
923 2013-08-19 18:45:32 <TD> that reminds me. i need to get you guys to sign it :)
924 2013-08-19 18:45:42 <Luke-Jr> TD: you should have reminded us in San Jose! :p
925 2013-08-19 18:45:45 * gmaxwell signs only TD's face.
926 2013-08-19 18:45:47 <an3k> ;p
927 2013-08-19 18:45:51 <TD> i didn't use PGP back then
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929 2013-08-19 18:46:11 * Luke-Jr facepalms
930 2013-08-19 18:46:13 <TD> i guess what gmaxwell said about how we should build upon our cryptographic heritage resonated, especially w.r.t. recent disclosures
931 2013-08-19 18:46:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: can you do that?
932 2013-08-19 18:46:48 <sipa> you sign individual identities, so i guess yes
933 2013-08-19 18:47:02 <TD> well, PGP has a lot of problems. i mostly care about signing and all my mail is signed automatically for a long time already, by DKIM. having a stronger system in place can't really hurt though, at least for occasional use. of course then the issue is, if you don't sign everything, a MITM can just drop the signature and nobody will know
934 2013-08-19 18:47:07 <sipa> you don't sign the key - you sign the connection between the key and the claimed identity
935 2013-08-19 18:47:15 <TD> it's not really ideal. i want to get time to compile and install Pond at some point.
936 2013-08-19 18:47:27 <an3k> I would prefer a new cryptography in case the current used I already "hacked" by NSA or whoever
937 2013-08-19 18:47:31 <TD> unfortunately it's written in Go and uses GTK3
938 2013-08-19 18:47:36 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: absolutely. Best practice (which it seems no one does in pgp) is to sign each identity seperately, and then email each signature to each address, thereby validating that they can recieve mail at those addresses. I'm not sure how you transmit a signature to a face though. :P
939 2013-08-19 18:47:42 <TD> so is pretty much a nightmare to compile on a Mac, and when I'm at work I have more important things to do :)
940 2013-08-19 18:48:06 <Luke-Jr> TD: KMail is most excellent if you get the 4.3 version before KDE rewrote it <.<
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943 2013-08-19 18:48:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: QR-Code hand delivery
944 2013-08-19 18:48:40 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: The only person I've ever seen do the split stuff is Bradley Kuhn, though supposidly there is some perl script out there that makes it easy if you have sendmail working on your local host.
945 2013-08-19 18:49:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: yup
946 2013-08-19 18:49:18 <sipa> i've used that script once after a key-signing party
947 2013-08-19 18:49:29 <sipa> (it involved 200 people; i wasn't manually going to send 200 mails...)
948 2013-08-19 18:49:33 <an3k> But the whole system is only secure as long as nobody has access to the private key and password and exactly there I see a problem.
949 2013-08-19 18:49:49 <Luke-Jr> an3k: â¦
950 2013-08-19 18:49:56 <an3k> Luke-Jr?
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953 2013-08-19 18:50:43 <an3k> Don't you think the NSA has some backdoors in newer operating systems or at least a "illegal" solution to hack into?
954 2013-08-19 18:51:02 <Luke-Jr> an3k: maybe for the few people who still run Mac/Windows
955 2013-08-19 18:51:06 ThomasV has joined
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957 2013-08-19 18:51:53 <an3k> well, on linux you're far more secure, you're absolutely right but sadly most people use windows on intel :(
958 2013-08-19 18:52:26 <gmaxwell> an3k: Security is a continuum, I'm sure the NSA (^wlockheed martin) has some awesome back doors, but they're not likely to go using on them on things which aren't the greatest threat they expect to have in the near future. So your goal is to not be the NSA's greatest threat and to be secure against everyone _except_ the NSA. :P
959 2013-08-19 18:52:53 <Luke-Jr> http://bitcoinmagazine.com/germany-sets-standard-for-bitcoin-regulation/
960 2013-08-19 18:53:07 <an3k> hehe
961 2013-08-19 18:53:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: or "I'm not trying to outrun the lion; I'm trying to outrun you." ?
962 2013-08-19 18:53:11 * Cusipzzz stays behind Luke-Jr o the NSA threat board..
963 2013-08-19 18:53:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: Yep. :)
964 2013-08-19 18:55:59 <an3k> you heard what the time reported said? or what happened to the husband of Glenn Greenwald? Or what the NZ gov wants to do? Or that the USA still have nearly full control over eg. germany?
965 2013-08-19 18:56:14 btsec has joined
966 2013-08-19 18:57:28 <sipa> #bitcoin please
967 2013-08-19 18:57:42 <handle> s/oin/h/
968 2013-08-19 18:57:42 <handle> sorry
969 2013-08-19 18:59:01 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
970 2013-08-19 19:01:50 <jrmithdobbs> lol
971 2013-08-19 19:02:06 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: really? 11:50 < Luke-Jr> an3k: maybe for the few people who still run Mac/Windows
972 2013-08-19 19:02:24 <sipa> in this channel, perhaps :)
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996 2013-08-19 19:22:14 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I did, although I turned the server off as the person who was using it stopped.
997 2013-08-19 19:22:21 justusranvier has left ()
998 2013-08-19 19:22:42 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I mean, I can turn it back on for you, which wouldn't be bloating the blockchain at all :/
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1003 2013-08-19 19:24:13 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: git is interesting re: timestamps - you can use a git commit hash to timestamp any individual file, but you have to reveal parts of the directory structure of your repo to do it!
1004 2013-08-19 19:24:59 justusranvier has joined
1005 2013-08-19 19:26:43 <an3k> gmaxwell: any idea what's going on with my client?
1006 2013-08-19 19:27:02 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: true
1007 2013-08-19 19:27:11 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: how would turning it back on not bloat the blockchain?
1008 2013-08-19 19:28:38 bitbitbyte has joined
1009 2013-08-19 19:29:14 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I mean, it's O(1) bloat, but if there is one user, it's indistinguishable from that user just doing timestamping tx's
1010 2013-08-19 19:29:39 <Luke-Jr> rather not then
1011 2013-08-19 19:29:52 normanrichards has joined
1012 2013-08-19 19:30:55 <petertodd> heh, you could do worse: change eligius to add timestamp digests to people's scriptSigs...
1013 2013-08-19 19:31:10 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1014 2013-08-19 19:31:19 <petertodd> although you can already do that with multisig tx's even if you aren't a miner
1015 2013-08-19 19:31:37 <handle> what's the worst possible thing you could add to scriptsigs?
1016 2013-08-19 19:31:53 <petertodd> handle: child porn?
1017 2013-08-19 19:31:56 Applicat_ has joined
1018 2013-08-19 19:32:03 <handle> eh, I didn't mean like that
1019 2013-08-19 19:32:04 <Luke-Jr> handle: you had to ask
1020 2013-08-19 19:32:06 <handle> I meant computationally
1021 2013-08-19 19:32:13 <handle> lol
1022 2013-08-19 19:32:17 <Luke-Jr> handle: oh, that CVEâ¦
1023 2013-08-19 19:32:34 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs#CVE-2013-2292
1024 2013-08-19 19:32:46 <Luke-Jr> you'd lock up the whole network for a few minutes
1025 2013-08-19 19:35:09 dust-otc has joined
1026 2013-08-19 19:35:11 <handle> Luke-Jr: interesting idea
1027 2013-08-19 19:35:13 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1028 2013-08-19 19:35:15 <handle> I assume it's fixed now?
1029 2013-08-19 19:35:17 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1030 2013-08-19 19:35:17 <Luke-Jr> nope
1031 2013-08-19 19:35:22 <handle> o.O
1032 2013-08-19 19:35:28 <handle> brb making mining pool
1033 2013-08-19 19:35:31 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1034 2013-08-19 19:35:34 <handle> :P
1035 2013-08-19 19:35:46 <handle> I'm only kidding of course - still though, interesting that they could do that
1036 2013-08-19 19:36:25 <gmaxwell> an3k: I think when trying to forward the port you managed to remap your outbound connections back to yourself!
1037 2013-08-19 19:36:31 <Luke-Jr> LOL
1038 2013-08-19 19:36:38 <gmaxwell> an3k: did you setup a port forward manually, or is this some kind of really awesome UPNP bug.
1039 2013-08-19 19:36:53 <gmaxwell> an3k: sorry I took so long to get back to you, my email isn't always super fast.
1040 2013-08-19 19:37:00 <an3k> np
1041 2013-08-19 19:37:03 <an3k> its uPNP
1042 2013-08-19 19:37:22 <an3k> but only the bitcoin-qt has a problem
1043 2013-08-19 19:37:31 <gmaxwell> hm. I think your UPNP router may have some kind of crazy bug.
1044 2013-08-19 19:37:53 <gmaxwell> an3k: can you turn of UPNP in bitcoin-qt and .. uh. I'm not sure how to clear the UPNP state out of your router without waiting an hour.
1045 2013-08-19 19:38:07 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1046 2013-08-19 19:38:17 <an3k> np, the router is fully managable :)
1047 2013-08-19 19:38:29 <gmaxwell> In any case, what is happening is that DNS seed works normally, and then every single connection you make outbound ends up connecting back to you.
1048 2013-08-19 19:38:33 <gmaxwell> Also, what router is this?!
1049 2013-08-19 19:38:42 <an3k> Cisco RV082
1050 2013-08-19 19:39:06 <Luke-Jr> figures
1051 2013-08-19 19:39:08 theymos has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1052 2013-08-19 19:39:08 <Luke-Jr> Cisco crap
1053 2013-08-19 19:39:21 <handle> Cisco probably mines LTC
1054 2013-08-19 19:39:27 <Luke-Jr> lol
1055 2013-08-19 19:39:55 <an3k> turning upnp off in bitcoin removed the upnp entry in the router
1056 2013-08-19 19:40:16 <an3k> and now i'm getting blocks very fast
1057 2013-08-19 19:40:45 <an3k> 100% cpu usage :D
1058 2013-08-19 19:41:06 <gmaxwell> Victory. Crazy. Now I wonder if other people have expirenced this and if there is anything we can do about it.
1059 2013-08-19 19:41:08 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
1060 2013-08-19 19:41:24 <gmaxwell> Perhaps we're actually using UPNP wrong and every other device is smart enough to not believe our request?
1061 2013-08-19 19:41:41 <an3k> I heard from someone about the same problem but don't know if he was using upnp or if his problem is caused by something else
1062 2013-08-19 19:43:21 <an3k> well, the port getting mapped is 8333 and that is used to connect to nodes but when the connection to that node is established another connection to "itself" is created onto port 58663. But because of the fact that 10.0.0.1 is the router and not the computer the client runs on i think the client is doing something wrong
1063 2013-08-19 19:44:24 Diapolis has joined
1064 2013-08-19 19:44:35 <gmaxwell> It connects out from localhost:random to internet:8333 and then the router captures that and rewrites it to router:random -> localhost:8333
1065 2013-08-19 19:44:49 <gmaxwell> the operative call to our UPNP library is:
1066 2013-08-19 19:44:49 <gmaxwell> r = UPNP_AddPortMapping(urls.controlURL, data.first.servicetype,
1067 2013-08-19 19:44:53 <gmaxwell> port.c_str(), port.c_str(), lanaddr, strDesc.c_str(), "TCP", 0, "0");
1068 2013-08-19 19:44:54 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: could the router be redirecting DNS to its own IP?
1069 2013-08-19 19:45:00 Lyspooner has joined
1070 2013-08-19 19:45:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, we're actually trying to connect to a bunch of internet addresses, not the router.
1071 2013-08-19 19:45:19 <an3k> yes but it also connects from localhost:random to router:58663 thinking it would be localhost:58663
1072 2013-08-19 19:45:32 agath has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1073 2013-08-19 19:45:48 <an3k> trying connection 66.41.226.2:8333 lastseen=2.2hrs
1074 2013-08-19 19:45:48 <an3k> accepted connection 10.0.0.1:58663
1075 2013-08-19 19:45:55 <gmaxwell> e.g.
1076 2013-08-19 19:45:56 <gmaxwell> trying connection 72.179.167.123:8333 lastseen=505.1hrs
1077 2013-08-19 19:45:56 <gmaxwell> connected 72.179.167.123:8333
1078 2013-08-19 19:45:56 <gmaxwell> send version message: version 70001, blocks=249565, us=37.4.17.39:8333, them=72.179.167.123:8333, peer=72.179.167.123:8333
1079 2013-08-19 19:45:59 <gmaxwell> accepted connection 10.0.0.1:58683
1080 2013-08-19 19:46:02 <gmaxwell> connected to self at 10.0.0.1:58683, disconnecting
1081 2013-08-19 19:46:11 <an3k> exactly
1082 2013-08-19 19:46:11 BTC_Bear has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1083 2013-08-19 19:46:17 <gmaxwell> just some random example data I cooked up.
1084 2013-08-19 19:46:18 <an3k> connected to self at 10.0.0.1:58683, disconnecting
1085 2013-08-19 19:46:28 <an3k> 10.0.0.1 is NOT "self"
1086 2013-08-19 19:46:55 <Luke-Jr> it is, that's the point
1087 2013-08-19 19:46:58 <an3k> why does bitcoin-qt thinks 10.0.0.1 is itself? i think fixing this will solve the whole problem
1088 2013-08-19 19:47:08 <gmaxwell> an3k: because it is.
1089 2013-08-19 19:47:10 <an3k> Luke-Jr: it's not
1090 2013-08-19 19:47:10 <Luke-Jr> it's talking to itself
1091 2013-08-19 19:47:21 <an3k> nah, how can it talk to itself using ip 10.0.0.1?
1092 2013-08-19 19:47:22 Application has joined
1093 2013-08-19 19:47:28 <Luke-Jr> your router is taking the outgoing connection and forwarding it back to you
1094 2013-08-19 19:47:31 <gmaxwell> an3k: it knows its talking to itself. It sends an identification cookie and sees its own traffic.
1095 2013-08-19 19:48:01 <gmaxwell> the router is acting as a loopback, likely because its UPNP is directing _all_ connections to 8333 back to your host. E.g. it's working "too well".
1096 2013-08-19 19:48:58 <an3k> ok but without upnp activated the log looks different. there is no second connection to 10.0.0.1
1097 2013-08-19 19:49:27 agath has joined
1098 2013-08-19 19:49:40 <an3k> and the second connection to itself is NOT working because there is no mapping for that port, perhaps because the client didn't created it
1099 2013-08-19 19:49:40 <Luke-Jr> never was
1100 2013-08-19 19:49:45 <Luke-Jr> it was a connection FROM 10.0.0.1
1101 2013-08-19 19:50:03 <sipa> indeed
1102 2013-08-19 19:50:14 <sipa> it's your own connection coming back
1103 2013-08-19 19:50:19 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1104 2013-08-19 19:50:56 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, from here upnp appears to work correctly
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1106 2013-08-19 19:51:13 <an3k> I checked the router logs. absolutely nothing about port 58663
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1108 2013-08-19 19:51:59 <an3k> but I can see successful mappings of port 8333
1109 2013-08-19 19:52:02 <sipa> i doubt it logs its own natted source port fir forwarded connections
1110 2013-08-19 19:52:06 <an3k> it does
1111 2013-08-19 19:52:22 <sipa> k
1112 2013-08-19 19:52:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, most modern routers log all connections forwarded from the outside
1113 2013-08-19 19:53:11 <sipa> well, there is no doubt that you connected to yourself
1114 2013-08-19 19:53:18 <sipa> however that happened
1115 2013-08-19 19:53:40 <gmaxwell> It's unambigious whats happening here, the only question is if your router's UPNP is bugged or ours is.
1116 2013-08-19 19:53:47 <phantomcircuit> there's a lot of buggy upnp implementations
1117 2013-08-19 19:54:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i can verify upnp works correctly with bitcoin-qt on windows and a netgear WNDR4500
1118 2013-08-19 19:54:20 <gmaxwell> I'd say that the fact that it works for lots of people suggests that its on your end, but since a lot of firewalls can't actually hairpin a connection like that at all, I'm not sure.
1119 2013-08-19 19:54:26 <an3k> gmaxwell: in reply to the code you posted above: Aug 19 19:33:11 2013 Kernel upnpd[415]: AddPortMap: DevUDN: uuid:75802409-bccb-40e7-8e6c-fa095ecce13e ServiceID: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:WANIPConn1 RemoteHost: (null) Prot: TCP ExtPort: 8333 Int: 10.0.0.31.8333
1120 2013-08-19 19:54:48 <sipa> and 10..31 is your internal ip?
1121 2013-08-19 19:54:54 <an3k> yes
1122 2013-08-19 19:55:00 <sipa> looka correct so far
1123 2013-08-19 19:55:13 <gmaxwell> the fact that RemoteHost: (null) is interesting perhaps.
1124 2013-08-19 19:55:27 <an3k> well, i never had any upnp problem. even sabnzbd uses it correctly
1125 2013-08-19 19:55:35 <sipa> i assume it means "any"
1126 2013-08-19 19:55:38 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, upnp allows for specifying a specific remote host
1127 2013-08-19 19:55:45 <phantomcircuit> i assume it's 0.0.0.0
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1129 2013-08-19 19:56:07 <sipa> an3k: could you post a log entry for sabnzbdb requesting a mapping?
1130 2013-08-19 19:56:20 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: right, but is there something special you need to do to distingush "from the internet" from "all connections, including my own"
1131 2013-08-19 19:56:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: good idea.
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1133 2013-08-19 19:56:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i suspect you'd have to connect to external_ip:8333 to end up with a loop back
1134 2013-08-19 19:56:51 <an3k> sipa: sure, one sec
1135 2013-08-19 19:57:17 <phantomcircuit> it's possible that's being incorrectly implemented as an iptables rule which doesn't specify the destination ip
1136 2013-08-19 19:57:38 <phantomcircuit> but then outgoing traffic to port 8333 should all be trapped
1137 2013-08-19 19:57:45 <phantomcircuit> an3k, what kind of router is this?
1138 2013-08-19 19:57:52 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, thats why I asked if he did it manually.
1139 2013-08-19 19:58:10 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1141 2013-08-19 19:58:19 <sipa> which would mean we beed an outgoing connection filtering rule that says "remote port != local listen port"
1142 2013-08-19 19:58:21 <gmaxwell> Although, I actually don't think IPtables dnat can actually do this. (a direct hairpin, as that requires rewriting the source IP address too)
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1145 2013-08-19 19:59:25 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc it can rewrite the source ip also
1146 2013-08-19 19:59:52 <phantomcircuit> interesting
1147 2013-08-19 20:00:00 <gmaxwell> (also, as an aside if it's always rewriting the source IP even for non-hairpin connections, that will totally bugger our DoS stuff)
1148 2013-08-19 20:00:01 <phantomcircuit> this client w/ upnp is now reporting 12 connections
1149 2013-08-19 20:00:08 whizter has joined
1150 2013-08-19 20:00:33 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: perhaps, but you don't get a rule that does that accidentally.
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1158 2013-08-19 20:09:36 <an3k> have to restart NAS to get it to use upnp ... brb
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1162 2013-08-19 20:15:01 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: upnp works on anything running miniupnpd which is like 95% of home routers at this point
1163 2013-08-19 20:15:16 <jrmithdobbs> but miniupnpd has problems, lots of them =/
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1168 2013-08-19 20:19:25 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1180 2013-08-19 20:31:27 <an3k> Aug 19 22:30:22 2013 Kernel upnpd[7504]: AddPortMap: DevUDN: uuid:75802409-bccb-40e7-8e6c-fa095ecce13e ServiceID: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:WANIPConn1 RemoteHost: (null) Prot: UDP ExtPort: 6881 Int: 10.0.0.21.6881
1181 2013-08-19 20:32:09 <gmaxwell> well, that one is UDP not TCP but otherwise looks identical. Alas.
1182 2013-08-19 20:32:39 <phantomcircuit> an3k, what kind of router is this?
1183 2013-08-19 20:32:47 <an3k> Cisco RV082
1184 2013-08-19 20:33:25 <sipa> it'd be interesting to see if a UDP packet to internet:6881 also comes back
1185 2013-08-19 20:33:56 <phantomcircuit> an3k, is it running vpn stuff?
1186 2013-08-19 20:34:16 <an3k> the router? no
1187 2013-08-19 20:34:22 <an3k> sipa: how? :)
1188 2013-08-19 20:34:37 <phantomcircuit> that router is a "Dual WAN VPN Router"
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1190 2013-08-19 20:34:46 <phantomcircuit> so im guessing it does weird stuff to make that work
1191 2013-08-19 20:34:54 <phantomcircuit> which probably doesn't interact well with upnp
1192 2013-08-19 20:35:02 <an3k> phantomcircuit exactly and it's configured to use dual wan, not wan1 as primary and wan2 as backup
1193 2013-08-19 20:35:19 <an3k> nah, it does work well with upnp. just bitcoin-qt has some problems
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1220 2013-08-19 21:06:47 <dansmithbtc2> Hi, are there any plans to mitigate the crippling of bitcoin network with a difficulty pumping and dumping attack? What will it take to make the difficulty change not every 2016 blocks but acc.to some other algorithm?
1221 2013-08-19 21:07:34 <sipa> realistically: an alt coin
1222 2013-08-19 21:09:05 <dansmithbtc2> How about a simple change in the protocol, like - if no blocks found within 2 hours, then readjust the difficulty?
1223 2013-08-19 21:09:27 <gmaxwell> dansmithbtc2: creates trivial vulnerabilties.
1224 2013-08-19 21:09:52 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1225 2013-08-19 21:10:04 <gmaxwell> And uneeded. If the network has failed due to that, it's probably no longer economically interesting as the same party could reverse and respend at will or DOS with empty/junk blocks.
1226 2013-08-19 21:10:29 <sipa> ;;tblb 7200
1227 2013-08-19 21:10:30 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 2 hours and 0 seconds to generate is 120 years, 42 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 12 minutes, and 18 seconds
1228 2013-08-19 21:10:56 <gmaxwell> (not only creates trivial vulnerabilities, but in fact altcoins have adopted exactly that and been exploited as a result!)
1229 2013-08-19 21:11:32 paracyst has quit ()
1230 2013-08-19 21:11:44 <gmaxwell> dansmithbtc2: an example vulnerability, â bitcoin is intended to be fairly robust against a network attacker. I partition your node for more than two hours (connecting it only to my sybil nodes), and now I can feed you low diffiuclty blocks and you think you're getting real confirmations.
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1239 2013-08-19 21:20:12 <Luke-Jr> maybe we should display confirmation in total work with some exponential unit?
1240 2013-08-19 21:20:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heh, I nearly read that as "in tonal work"...
1241 2013-08-19 21:20:53 <gmaxwell> Anyone have a semi-recent signature R value dump handy? it takes forever to run, TD suggests it might be interesting here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277595.0
1242 2013-08-19 21:21:23 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sipa suggested displaying time-at-current-hashrate (or, perhaps, peak hashrate)
1243 2013-08-19 21:21:24 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Sounds reasonable, though probably sub-exponential is fine from a UI point of view - like first a tiny sliver of the circle, then a bigger chunk, and an even bigger chunk etc.
1244 2013-08-19 21:21:56 <gmaxwell> sadly the entirely history of bitcoin is only a couple months at the current difficulty!
1245 2013-08-19 21:22:09 <k9quaint> not sad
1246 2013-08-19 21:22:11 ielo has joined
1247 2013-08-19 21:22:21 <gmaxwell> well good news for the future!
1248 2013-08-19 21:22:22 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: vessenes was talking about doing a report on confirmations with regard to cost to an attacker and stuff like that FWIW
1249 2013-08-19 21:22:35 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: well, I mean so users don't see 293284914234242 after a block because difficulty is high :p
1250 2013-08-19 21:22:39 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I ran numbers on that, and didn't like the results.
1251 2013-08-19 21:22:41 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1252 2013-08-19 21:23:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm not surprised - has he talked to you yet?
1253 2013-08-19 21:23:28 jevin has joined
1254 2013-08-19 21:23:45 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. the conservative thing to do would be to assume 100% of the transaction in the block with your txn are double spends, and ask how many confirms you need before the attacker with a given hashrate has a negative expectency.
1255 2013-08-19 21:24:12 <gmaxwell> (and take the hasrate of the largest pool you know about)
1256 2013-08-19 21:24:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I know - a really sophisticated hacker can get a heck of a lot of value out of a malicious block - in part you are relying on the good security of others in your own security assumptions.
1257 2013-08-19 21:24:44 <sipa> the genesis block has 93 days worth of confirmations...
1258 2013-08-19 21:25:05 <gmaxwell> and the result (when I checked it) came out to be like 20 blocks or something, of course more when there is more transaction value.
1259 2013-08-19 21:25:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: and assume any other largeish pool is DDoS'd
1260 2013-08-19 21:25:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I wasn't assuming that, but thats a point too... :(
1261 2013-08-19 21:25:50 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yeah, might as well assume they all are then :(
1262 2013-08-19 21:25:56 <gmaxwell> if you assume that, then uh.. I think nothing is safe except waiting for long enough that you'd hear of the DOS.
1263 2013-08-19 21:26:16 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1264 2013-08-19 21:26:25 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, for most things where high certainty of transactions is necessary the difference between a single high value tx and lots of low value tx's is irrelevant
1265 2013-08-19 21:26:31 <petertodd> Well, you can look at the rate of new blocks, and make assumptions about how much hashing power the attacker might have, but that's ugly fast...
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1267 2013-08-19 21:27:08 <Luke-Jr> once upon a time I had a pullrequest working toward disabling confirmations if the network hashrate drops significantly..
1268 2013-08-19 21:27:22 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the point there is that if you are conservative the value of your txn doesn't matter for the attacker's profit. Because an attacker can fill a block with attack transactions, and attack many parties at once.
1269 2013-08-19 21:27:50 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, right
1270 2013-08-19 21:28:04 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: IMO a good thing - merchants should be doing stuff like that for sure even at the cost of occasional outages due to bad mining luck
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1272 2013-08-19 21:28:17 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: but that's all business logic really...
1273 2013-08-19 21:28:17 <gmaxwell> realistically they likely kind find enough victims, but I was trying to a conservative figure... hoping it would produce a number like ... 6. :)
1274 2013-08-19 21:28:41 <gmaxwell> MTGOX deposits are pretty clever in a what that causes occasional delays.
1275 2013-08-19 21:28:49 <gmaxwell> They look for six confirms _longer_ than any chain they've seen.
1276 2013-08-19 21:28:58 <gmaxwell> so if there is a short fork, they need more confirms.
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1278 2013-08-19 21:29:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: meh, if someone were doing that kind of attack, they wouldn't publish it until it was done
1279 2013-08-19 21:29:43 <gmaxwell> though really the number six is pure cargo cult. With single pools kissing 40% hashrate, there is no rational basis for the number six anymore.
1280 2013-08-19 21:29:49 <CodeShark> gmaxwell, that's how I measured confirmation counts in one implementation I did
1281 2013-08-19 21:30:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it increases their security slightly against doublespends that happen in the case of things like bug induced major forks.
1282 2013-08-19 21:30:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: That's exactly the kind of stuff that I think vessenes wants written up, ideally made into libraries for people to attack to their business logic. But that's lots of gruntwork...
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1289 2013-08-19 21:37:21 <CodeShark> the thing is that these types of differences in confirmation metrics don't really matter the vast majority of the time - but when they do make a difference, it can be a big difference
1290 2013-08-19 21:39:11 <gmaxwell> the mtgox metric is snazzy but causes randomly increased delays and confirmation non-determinism on a regular basis though. :(
1291 2013-08-19 21:39:24 <gmaxwell> e.g. many times a day your required confirm count is increased by 1.
1292 2013-08-19 21:40:15 <petertodd> sounds like the rest of mt. gox re: payment non-determinism...
1293 2013-08-19 21:40:36 <CodeShark> if it's any consolation, their dollar deposit/withdrawal is even less deterministic and presents far, far,
1294 2013-08-19 21:40:43 <CodeShark> FAAAR longer delays
1295 2013-08-19 21:41:05 <CodeShark> I've been waiting a month for a withdrawal
1296 2013-08-19 21:41:27 <CodeShark> reminded me never to use Gox for that again
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1311 2013-08-19 21:50:25 <helo> yeah, gox is on its way out if it doesn't fix that soon
1312 2013-08-19 21:51:04 <phantomcircuit> helo, it's plausible that there isn't a plausible fix
1313 2013-08-19 21:51:16 <phantomcircuit> iirc they're literally filling out paper forms for wires
1314 2013-08-19 21:51:33 <phantomcircuit> short of becoming a bank im not sure how to get around that
1315 2013-08-19 21:51:42 <helo> 15% depreciation of mtgoxusd is pretty serious
1316 2013-08-19 21:51:57 <phantomcircuit> sure but for now it's allowing be to make a killing
1317 2013-08-19 21:51:59 <phantomcircuit> woot woot
1318 2013-08-19 21:52:30 <helo> hopefully all exchanges don't go this way after they get popular
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1320 2013-08-19 21:53:06 <phantomcircuit> helo, afaict the problem is without dwolla the wire volume on gox exploded with people trying to transfer like $500 around
1321 2013-08-19 21:53:15 <phantomcircuit> which caused their bank problems
1322 2013-08-19 21:53:22 <phantomcircuit> which means their bank makes it their problem
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1324 2013-08-19 21:55:38 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: they should have required the full id nonsense for wires
1325 2013-08-19 21:56:01 <Luke-Jr> now they're not only pissing off/losing Dwolla customers, but also annoying those of us who had been using wires without problems for a long time
1326 2013-08-19 21:56:10 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
1327 2013-08-19 21:57:05 <Luke-Jr> or at least prioritised larger amounts
1328 2013-08-19 21:57:34 <Luke-Jr> otoh, I don't know if my $10k is on the high or low end for MtGox..
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1332 2013-08-19 22:03:22 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, that's not even enough for the us though
1333 2013-08-19 22:03:35 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: ?
1334 2013-08-19 22:03:40 <phantomcircuit> the states require you be licensed regardless of whether you follow the other rules
1335 2013-08-19 22:03:55 <phantomcircuit> afaict they are currently in the process of registering
1336 2013-08-19 22:03:57 <phantomcircuit> but it takes years
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1339 2013-08-19 22:08:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
1340 2013-08-19 22:09:00 <phantomcircuit> the progress bar is depressingly accurate
1341 2013-08-19 22:09:09 <phantomcircuit> 19 weeks behind, maybe 30% full
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1362 2013-08-19 22:29:48 <phantomcircuit> 2013-08-19 22:28:52 ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty
1363 2013-08-19 22:29:48 <phantomcircuit> 2013-08-19 22:28:52 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : CheckTransaction failed
1364 2013-08-19 22:29:48 <phantomcircuit> 2013-08-19 22:28:52 Misbehaving: 65.207.52.66:64744 (30 -> 40)
1365 2013-08-19 22:29:49 <phantomcircuit> wat
1366 2013-08-19 22:29:57 <phantomcircuit> what are you doing 65.207.52.66
1367 2013-08-19 22:30:01 <phantomcircuit> go home you're drunk
1368 2013-08-19 22:30:33 <gmaxwell> it sent a transaction 00000000 nodes that do that appear to do it because they somehow end up with it in their wallet.
1369 2013-08-19 22:30:35 <gmaxwell> I don't think we know why.
1370 2013-08-19 22:30:46 denom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1371 2013-08-19 22:30:53 <gmaxwell> but its apparently happened with unmodified reference client nodes.
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1375 2013-08-19 22:31:47 AtashiCon has joined
1376 2013-08-19 22:32:11 <phantomcircuit> NORTH SHORE HOSPITALITY ASSOC LP
1377 2013-08-19 22:32:19 <phantomcircuit> someone on hotel wifi doing something weird?
1378 2013-08-19 22:32:45 joepie91 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1379 2013-08-19 22:33:04 <phantomcircuit> i literally think i could walk into that hotel if i was in pittsburgh
1380 2013-08-19 22:33:06 joepie91 has joined
1381 2013-08-19 22:33:20 <phantomcircuit> lol ip is lol
1382 2013-08-19 22:34:58 iwilcox has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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1384 2013-08-19 22:37:22 rubino123 has joined
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1386 2013-08-19 22:39:05 <rubino123> how many confirmations before the coins are useable?
1387 2013-08-19 22:39:05 <rubino123> *?
1388 2013-08-19 22:39:05 <rubino123> 8?
1389 2013-08-19 22:39:44 denom has joined
1390 2013-08-19 22:40:11 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: what coins?
1391 2013-08-19 22:40:21 footch__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1392 2013-08-19 22:40:22 <Luke-Jr> and usable from whose perspective?
1393 2013-08-19 22:40:55 <sipa> for the protocol, 0
1394 2013-08-19 22:40:56 <rubino123> useable so I can transfer them from one account on the wallet to another
1395 2013-08-19 22:41:03 <rubino123> account
1396 2013-08-19 22:41:06 <sipa> for most clients, 1
1397 2013-08-19 22:41:17 <sipa> for some merchant accounts, 6
1398 2013-08-19 22:41:21 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: 0
1399 2013-08-19 22:41:33 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: accounts are just beancounters, they don't interact with coins
1400 2013-08-19 22:41:45 <rubino123> Luke-Jr: is it possible to turn off the computer networkinterface and use the bitcoind daemon
1401 2013-08-19 22:41:54 <rubino123> to make internal shuffles
1402 2013-08-19 22:41:57 <sipa> yes
1403 2013-08-19 22:41:58 <Luke-Jr> sure
1404 2013-08-19 22:42:01 denom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1406 2013-08-19 22:42:30 <sipa> not anything that needs a tramsaction though
1407 2013-08-19 22:42:39 <sipa> so you can't move coins around
1408 2013-08-19 22:42:55 <Luke-Jr> unless you do a bunch of complex stuff with the raw transaction API
1409 2013-08-19 22:42:56 <sipa> but you can create new addresses, or do moves between accounts in a wallet
1410 2013-08-19 22:43:17 iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox
1411 2013-08-19 22:43:55 <rubino123> if I move x bitcoins from account A to account B and then the network gets brought back online will new coin that get sent to account A get reconciled into acocunt A?
1412 2013-08-19 22:44:10 <sipa> accounts _only_ exist locally
1413 2013-08-19 22:44:12 <rubino123> My guess is no but better to be safe ask and not get it wrong
1414 2013-08-19 22:44:21 <sipa> the have _nothing_ to do with coins or addresses
1415 2013-08-19 22:44:39 <sipa> they are really just numbers
1416 2013-08-19 22:44:49 <sipa> in a shared wallet
1417 2013-08-19 22:45:00 <sipa> all accounts share all coins in a wallet
1418 2013-08-19 22:45:13 footch__ has joined
1419 2013-08-19 22:45:18 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: coins received on an address, go into the account that address credits.
1420 2013-08-19 22:45:31 denom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1421 2013-08-19 22:45:41 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: moving balances between accounts has no effect on address->account associations
1422 2013-08-19 22:45:48 <sipa> s/go into/are assigned to/
1423 2013-08-19 22:46:05 <sipa> it's not that the received coins belong to that account
1424 2013-08-19 22:46:07 <Luke-Jr> right, the coins don't go into the account
1425 2013-08-19 22:46:13 <sipa> coins belong to the wallet as a whole
1426 2013-08-19 22:46:17 <Luke-Jr> it JUST credits the account
1427 2013-08-19 22:46:23 <sipa> indeed
1428 2013-08-19 22:46:24 <rubino123> so here is the use use case: the provider is running a service that requires payment by a certain time for the service to begin. At the predetermined time the provider turns off the network connection, moves all coins from the reception account into another account.
1429 2013-08-19 22:46:49 <Luke-Jr> you don't move coins, you move balances.
1430 2013-08-19 22:46:55 <sipa> coins do not belong to accounts
1431 2013-08-19 22:46:59 <rubino123> The provider then turns the connection back on and any coins being sent to the recpetion account at this time get sent back
1432 2013-08-19 22:47:15 <sipa> are you talking about accounts or addresses?
1433 2013-08-19 22:47:18 agnostic98 has joined
1434 2013-08-19 22:47:26 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: that would work, IFF you collect a "send back" address beforehand
1435 2013-08-19 22:47:46 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: you don't even need to turn the connection off
1436 2013-08-19 22:47:56 <rubino123> it would be aggreed that the sending addressis the send back address
1437 2013-08-19 22:48:03 <sipa> bah
1438 2013-08-19 22:48:04 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: there is no sending address
1439 2013-08-19 22:48:07 <sipa> don't do that
1440 2013-08-19 22:48:07 denom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1441 2013-08-19 22:48:09 <Luke-Jr> transactions only have a destination
1442 2013-08-19 22:48:11 <rubino123> I am trying to get away with not using a db for user account balances
1443 2013-08-19 22:48:24 <rubino123> for the provider
1444 2013-08-19 22:48:29 <sipa> if you need to send coins back, ask for a refund address
1445 2013-08-19 22:48:35 <sipa> please
1446 2013-08-19 22:48:35 <rubino123> ok
1447 2013-08-19 22:48:40 <rubino123> fair enough
1448 2013-08-19 22:48:56 <rubino123> can this all be done on the protocollevel?
1449 2013-08-19 22:49:11 <Luke-Jr> none of this has anything to do with the protocol <.<
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1451 2013-08-19 22:49:36 <sipa> accounts, addresses or balances do not exist at the protocol level
1452 2013-08-19 22:49:44 <sipa> only coins and transactions
1453 2013-08-19 22:49:48 <rubino123> like I said I am trying to get away with not using a db but instead query the local blockchain or wallet infoinstead
1454 2013-08-19 22:49:49 roconnor has joined
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1456 2013-08-19 22:49:56 <rubino123> ok
1457 2013-08-19 22:50:01 <Luke-Jr> rubino123: your wallet is a db
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1459 2013-08-19 22:50:35 loltu has joined
1460 2013-08-19 22:51:23 <sipa> not sure what you mean by not using a db
1461 2013-08-19 22:51:35 <sipa> you need to keep track of things somehow
1462 2013-08-19 22:51:50 <sipa> there are many implementations that do that for you
1463 2013-08-19 22:52:04 Tykling has joined
1464 2013-08-19 22:52:12 <sipa> the bitcoind wallet is one, but it's certainly not for every purpose
1465 2013-08-19 22:52:24 <sipa> the accounts layer was sort of hacked on top of it
1466 2013-08-19 22:52:25 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1467 2013-08-19 22:52:25 egis has quit (Client Quit)
1468 2013-08-19 22:52:32 <sipa> but for some use cases, it works
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