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   2 2013-08-20 11:36:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, and I'm disappointed Cython scared me off with a compiler bug :(
   3 2013-08-20 11:37:04 <jgarzik> or just do it in C/C++
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   6 2013-08-20 11:38:14 <petertodd> jgarzik: heh, well... pythonizing C/C++ libraries isn't anywhere near as painful as you'd expect
   7 2013-08-20 11:38:20 <petertodd> good excuse to make a library out of bitcoin
   8 2013-08-20 11:38:29 * sipa murmurs something about #2645
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  10 2013-08-20 11:38:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: for Python?
  11 2013-08-20 11:39:20 <sipa> you can copy the logic
  12 2013-08-20 11:39:36 <sipa> i don't mean this particular implementation, but the algorithm is tested at least
  13 2013-08-20 11:39:55 * Luke-Jr wonders if Python supports hashing a stream O.o
  14 2013-08-20 11:40:42 <petertodd> sipa: and the python library already has enough bugs that weren't not too worried if it doesn't work :/
  15 2013-08-20 11:41:15 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: the hashing libraries probably optimize that case...
  16 2013-08-20 11:41:34 <jgarzik> petertodd, if you could find time to import bitcoind unit tests and get those working, that would have community-wide benefit…
  17 2013-08-20 11:41:46 <jgarzik> [in python-bitcoinlib, I mean]
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  19 2013-08-20 11:43:00 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, the "get them working" is the hardest part
  20 2013-08-20 11:43:32 <petertodd> jgarzik: I've got code to run the scripting tests, but so much of that fails... I dunno, I think EvalScript() in libraries is dangerous
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  22 2013-08-20 11:44:18 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, The speed would be obtained from doing small encode+hash bits just like in sipa's recent C++ SignatureHash update…  Hashing to a stream is more a figure of speech, not a specific technical need.  python can do what this bitcoin problem requires.
  23 2013-08-20 11:44:51 <jgarzik> petertodd, it needs to be correct.  even SPV wallets doing transaction signing should be performing a quick script test before sending the TX out the door.
  24 2013-08-20 11:45:24 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, but that stuff can be special-cased / stripped down versions - no need to claim you've gotten CODESEPARATOR right for instance
  25 2013-08-20 11:46:17 <jgarzik> petertodd, on a practical level, it is fine to (say) import the script tests, and then comment out specific cases that aren't passing tests just yet
  26 2013-08-20 11:46:55 <jgarzik> petertodd, it then becomes an iteractive process, working on individual tests.  something that can be done by multiple programmers in paralle, once initial import is complete.
  27 2013-08-20 11:47:05 <petertodd> jgarzik: on a practical level, I'll have to change the script test case format so you even can comment out tests :P
  28 2013-08-20 11:47:32 <petertodd> jgarzik: parallelism is good though
  29 2013-08-20 11:48:03 <sipa> it is webscale
  30 2013-08-20 11:48:10 <petertodd> ...
  31 2013-08-20 11:48:22 <jgarzik> *iterative
  32 2013-08-20 11:48:26 <sipa> (sorry, couldn't resist)
  33 2013-08-20 11:48:31 * jgarzik -> too little sleep
  34 2013-08-20 11:48:38 <petertodd> clouds... ever noticed how there are lots of them? all, like, next to each other? in layers? that's webscale man
  35 2013-08-20 11:48:45 <sipa> needs virtual machines though
  36 2013-08-20 11:48:45 <sipa> and cloud computing
  37 2013-08-20 11:48:58 <jgarzik> nested virtual clouds
  38 2013-08-20 11:49:13 * petertodd wonders how fast python-bitcoinlib would run on a python interpreter implemented in python
  39 2013-08-20 11:49:24 <jgarzik> petertodd, JSON data format needs a way to comment out sections
  40 2013-08-20 11:49:25 <jgarzik> JSONpp
  41 2013-08-20 11:49:33 <jgarzik> petertodd, I run into this problem again and again
  42 2013-08-20 11:49:39 <petertodd> jgarzik: same
  43 2013-08-20 11:49:48 <petertodd> jgarzik: json also needs to not suck, but I digress
  44 2013-08-20 11:50:16 <jgarzik> petertodd, let's just declare a comment standard, e.g. ^\s*\/\/
  45 2013-08-20 11:50:26 <jgarzik> petertodd, and implement it into bitcoind and python-bitcoinlib
  46 2013-08-20 11:51:29 <jgarzik> petertodd, JSON also needs to permit trailing commas on the last element in an array or dictionary
  47 2013-08-20 11:51:40 <petertodd> jgarzik: easy enough to implement
  48 2013-08-20 11:51:53 <petertodd> jgarzik: YES! god I hate languages that don't do that
  49 2013-08-20 11:52:12 <jgarzik> makes patching a bitch; always must change a line that otherwise does not need changing
  50 2013-08-20 11:52:25 <petertodd> yup
  51 2013-08-20 11:52:26 <sipa> or insert at the start instead of at the end :)
  52 2013-08-20 11:52:48 <jgarzik> sipa, it's crappy if your data format dictates your array order ;p
  53 2013-08-20 11:53:15 <sipa> or have a dummy finalizer object in the array
  54 2013-08-20 11:53:23 <sipa> *terminator
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  56 2013-08-20 11:58:09 <petertodd> jgarzik: FWIW I'm pretty confident that https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinlib/pull/6 is safe
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  62 2013-08-20 12:18:16 <petertodd> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277595.msg2970668#msg2970668 <- blockchain.info is vulnerable to poor RNG generation
  63 2013-08-20 12:18:49 <petertodd> only in signing tx's apparently, key generation is supposedly not affected
  64 2013-08-20 12:19:27 <sipa> old news :)
  65 2013-08-20 12:19:40 <sipa> they published an update, i saw on twitter
  66 2013-08-20 12:19:56 <petertodd> er, perhaps I should make it clear: that's the link to piuk confirming it, and mentioning the fix
  67 2013-08-20 12:20:08 <petertodd> I know there's been suspicions for, what, at least a day or three?
  68 2013-08-20 12:21:16 <sipa> oh, ok :)
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  70 2013-08-20 12:22:50 <TD> "Users of the web interface should clear their browsers cache before next login."
  71 2013-08-20 12:22:50 <TD> ??
  72 2013-08-20 12:22:59 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  73 2013-08-20 12:23:02 <TD> what is the point of a web app if you are required to clear the cache to get a new version of the site
  74 2013-08-20 12:23:27 <sipa> i suppose a long cache TTL on javascript code?
  75 2013-08-20 12:23:28 <petertodd> TD: it's more 2.0
  76 2013-08-20 12:23:49 _jps has joined
  77 2013-08-20 12:23:50 <petertodd> sipa: likely, could in theory help against attacks too
  78 2013-08-20 12:24:27 debiantoruser has joined
  79 2013-08-20 12:24:59 <gmaxwell> you should say 'help with attacks', then it works better for "helps stop attacks" as well as "helps attacks be more potent" :P
  80 2013-08-20 12:25:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, very true
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  82 2013-08-20 12:27:32 <TD> so it seems html5 lets you either have secure random numbers, or concurrency, but not both?
  83 2013-08-20 12:28:26 <sipa> ....?
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 101 2013-08-20 12:48:21 <t7> use some non-standard html, render it in <canvas> get a hash of the the result. That is like 256bits of entropy right there
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 160 2013-08-20 13:53:17 <tcatm> Is there somebody who'd like to take over the transifex project for bitcoin-qt?
 161 2013-08-20 13:55:14 <Luke-Jr> tcatm: I'd ask Diapolo, he seems into it
 162 2013-08-20 13:55:25 <sipa> +1 for Diapolo
 163 2013-08-20 13:57:00 <gmaxwell> from #avalon:
 164 2013-08-20 13:57:00 <gmaxwell> 06:53 < r0sc0e> how can i solomine with avalons?
 165 2013-08-20 13:57:00 <gmaxwell> 06:55 < conman> set up ppool software
 166 2013-08-20 13:57:01 <gmaxwell> 06:55 < conman> or use ozcoin's solopool
 167 2013-08-20 13:57:10 <gmaxwell> ... to solo mine, use a centeralized pool.
 168 2013-08-20 13:57:23 <gmaxwell> Nice world we've ended up with here. :(
 169 2013-08-20 13:57:29 <tcatm> Luke-Jr: Got an contact address?
 170 2013-08-20 13:57:42 <Luke-Jr> tcatm: I'd check git log :P
 171 2013-08-20 13:57:48 <Graet> it is seperate from the ozcoin pool
 172 2013-08-20 13:58:20 <Graet> seem to be a lot of solo curious ppl, so we set something up for if they wanted to try
 173 2013-08-20 13:58:26 <gmaxwell> Graet: I'm not criticizing you.
 174 2013-08-20 13:58:52 <Graet> it's ok only 1 800mh miner has tried
 175 2013-08-20 13:58:55 leakybuckit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 176 2013-08-20 13:59:32 <kinlo> Graet: you have a "solopool" ? :)
 177 2013-08-20 13:59:54 <TD> how does that work?
 178 2013-08-20 14:00:23 <Cusipzzz> sounds like the worst of both worlds :)
 179 2013-08-20 14:00:26 <kinlo> anyway, people should know that we're like 1% blocks found by solo's....
 180 2013-08-20 14:00:29 <Luke-Jr> Graet: but it isn't solo
 181 2013-08-20 14:00:55 <gmaxwell> I'm saying we've screwed up when someone has .1% of the network hashpower, and wants to solo, and the only things we can offer are "use a pool" or "use this centeralized service"
 182 2013-08-20 14:01:03 <gmaxwell> Thats just busted.
 183 2013-08-20 14:01:05 <Graet> no
 184 2013-08-20 14:01:20 <kinlo> gmaxwell: well, what would you recommend?
 185 2013-08-20 14:01:27 sacrelege has joined
 186 2013-08-20 14:01:29 <kinlo> gmaxwell: besides p2pool
 187 2013-08-20 14:01:32 <Graet> there are options fort ppl to solo, i offer a solo like sevice where the miner gets 24.5btc+1/2txn fees
 188 2013-08-20 14:02:01 yubrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 189 2013-08-20 14:02:09 <kinlo> even with 500 GH you are just not enough to mine enough blcoks....
 190 2013-08-20 14:02:10 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: real solo
 191 2013-08-20 14:02:11 <jgarzik> for solo mining?  I use eloipool locally
 192 2013-08-20 14:02:13 <Graet> + stats etc they would normally need to setup themselves
 193 2013-08-20 14:02:14 <TD> gmaxwell: do you know what the cause of enormous amounts of whitespace after OTR messages can be? some people say they see it, and others don't
 194 2013-08-20 14:02:17 <gmaxwell> kinlo: There is no straight forward suggestion to make, installing elopool is a mild pain depending on the persons system and technical background.
 195 2013-08-20 14:02:34 <Graet> and technical background. << important point
 196 2013-08-20 14:02:37 <gmaxwell> TD: I've never seen anyone report that. :( I saw your message on the otr list.
 197 2013-08-20 14:02:38 <jgarzik> bfgminer -- I thought?? -- could solo mine straight to bitcoind
 198 2013-08-20 14:02:42 <Luke-Jr> ^
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 202 2013-08-20 14:02:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: bfgminer can, yes.
 203 2013-08-20 14:02:58 chorao has joined
 204 2013-08-20 14:03:01 <kinlo> gmaxwell: every avalon can directly mine to GBT in bitcoind, no need to install pool software
 205 2013-08-20 14:03:05 <TD> gmaxwell: how much whitespace is it supposed to add?
 206 2013-08-20 14:03:12 <gmaxwell> kinlo: no, thats not true.
 207 2013-08-20 14:03:13 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: only if they install bFGMiner
 208 2013-08-20 14:03:18 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: cgminer doesn't support GBT
 209 2013-08-20 14:03:25 <kinlo> gmaxwell: it's not a technical problem - it's a problem that solo mining with 500GH is just not enough...
 210 2013-08-20 14:03:31 <TD> odd
 211 2013-08-20 14:03:37 <TD> i can't see the whitespace in the gmail logs.
 212 2013-08-20 14:03:44 <gmaxwell> kinlo: It's fine enough.
 213 2013-08-20 14:03:46 <kinlo> it doesn't?   I've been mining with cgminer with GBT in the past...
 214 2013-08-20 14:03:57 <jgarzik> OH GOD PYTHON IS SO SLOW
 215 2013-08-20 14:03:58 <gmaxwell> kinlo: not against bitcoind you haven't.
 216 2013-08-20 14:04:02 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: it's broken in various subtle ways - I'm surprised you didn't see the errors on your pool
 217 2013-08-20 14:04:03 <kinlo> gmaxwell: true...
 218 2013-08-20 14:04:19 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: I've changed some eloi settings to avoid them....
 219 2013-08-20 14:04:32 <kinlo> basicly, if d is an int, it seems to be working fine
 220 2013-08-20 14:04:41 <jgarzik> Processing one block every 3-6 seconds, here.  Go, pynode, go.
 221 2013-08-20 14:04:55 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: d?
 222 2013-08-20 14:05:00 <kinlo> difficulty
 223 2013-08-20 14:05:02 <gmaxwell> kinlo: To be frank, your response was also dishonest, saying that someone could not make a profit with 500 GH solo mining.  But thats another issue.
 224 2013-08-20 14:05:05 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: lthat doesn't make sense
 225 2013-08-20 14:05:08 <sipa> jgarzik: try this: http://abstrusegoose.com/219
 226 2013-08-20 14:05:40 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: GBT doesn't have "difficulty", just "target", which is always an int
 227 2013-08-20 14:06:26 <sipa> ;;genrate 500000
 228 2013-08-20 14:06:27 <kinlo> gmaxwell: I understand your position, but I don't want to recommend someone that has spent thousands of dollars on mining hardware to go gamble with such high variance....
 229 2013-08-20 14:06:27 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 500000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 4.94886007307 BTC per day and 0.206202503045 BTC per hour.
 230 2013-08-20 14:06:41 <sipa> it's one block every 5 days?
 231 2013-08-20 14:06:46 <gmaxwell> yea.
 232 2013-08-20 14:06:51 <sipa> i guess that's on the border of acceptable variance
 233 2013-08-20 14:06:53 <kinlo> gmaxwell: but perhaps I should have made that point more clear to the guy
 234 2013-08-20 14:06:59 <jgarzik> ;;gentime 300000
 235 2013-08-20 14:07:00 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 1 week, 1 day, 10 hours, 4 minutes, and 0 seconds
 236 2013-08-20 14:07:04 <jgarzik> that's me
 237 2013-08-20 14:07:05 <kinlo> sipa: the border :)
 238 2013-08-20 14:07:07 <kinlo> imho
 239 2013-08-20 14:07:07 <gmaxwell> kinlo: Then say that you consider it risky. Do not tell an outright lie and say it is unprofitable.
 240 2013-08-20 14:07:36 <jgarzik> ;;gentime 500000
 241 2013-08-20 14:07:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 500000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 5 days, 1 hour, 14 minutes, and 24 seconds
 242 2013-08-20 14:07:45 <gmaxwell> Sorry for being harsh, I get that you were trying to speak simply. At the same time, as a pool operator I think you have biases that influence your simplficiations there. :)
 243 2013-08-20 14:07:56 <sipa> ;;gentime 10500
 244 2013-08-20 14:07:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10500.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 34 weeks, 2 days, 13 hours, 20 minutes, and 7 seconds
 245 2013-08-20 14:08:04 <sipa> ^ /me will not solo mine
 246 2013-08-20 14:08:17 CheckDavid has joined
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 248 2013-08-20 14:08:42 <kinlo> gmaxwell: I didn't say it was unprofitable, I said one needed many avalons to be profitable... if he only had one it did make sense...
 249 2013-08-20 14:08:59 winbtc_moarrr has joined
 250 2013-08-20 14:09:27 <gmaxwell> kinlo: the number of devices you have doesn't influence the profitablity on average.. just the variance.
 251 2013-08-20 14:10:04 <jgarzik> ;;gentime 333
 252 2013-08-20 14:10:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 333.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 20 years, 40 weeks, 5 days, 2 hours, 6 minutes, and 14 seconds
 253 2013-08-20 14:10:14 <jgarzik> good ole block erupter
 254 2013-08-20 14:10:16 <gmaxwell> hehe.
 255 2013-08-20 14:10:23 <kinlo> gmaxwell: dunno, the variance is relevant....  especially with the predicted difficulties...
 256 2013-08-20 14:10:55 <winbtc_moarrr> Can I ask, why is the bitcoin community so anti-litecoin?
 257 2013-08-20 14:11:00 <gmaxwell> Man, I think Bitcoin is doing more to set back math understanding in this world than all the octal you could throw at a textbook.
 258 2013-08-20 14:11:03 <petertodd> kinlo: only if you have a family to feed, or in general don't live on love
 259 2013-08-20 14:11:30 <gmaxwell> kinlo: expectations are timeless. You can figure out your expected returns even if this were the last block to ever get mined being worked on right now.
 260 2013-08-20 14:11:31 <sipa> jgarzik: mine is still somewhere in the US, according to the tracking page :(
 261 2013-08-20 14:11:47 <sipa> winbtc_moarrr: not sure what you mean - i'm not anti litecoin, though i don't really care about it much
 262 2013-08-20 14:11:48 <Luke-Jr> winbtc_moarrr: individual reasons vary, but for me it's because it's a scam, makes bitcoin look bad, and leeches off bitcoin resources
 263 2013-08-20 14:11:53 freewil has joined
 264 2013-08-20 14:12:11 <jgarzik> I haven't had time to set mine up :(  It's such a low hash rate, it's almost too much effort to plug in and set up a separate bfgminer process :)
 265 2013-08-20 14:12:26 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: why separate? :p
 266 2013-08-20 14:12:31 <jgarzik> my variance with 5x 60GH is above 333 Mhps
 267 2013-08-20 14:12:31 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 268 2013-08-20 14:12:34 <jgarzik> :)
 269 2013-08-20 14:12:38 <sipa> why a separate bfgminer?
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 272 2013-08-20 14:13:05 <jgarzik> paranoia, I suppose.  Don't want block erupters to kill my much more valuable BFL mining
 273 2013-08-20 14:13:07 <petertodd> winbtc_moarrr: don't assume that everyone agrees with luke either
 274 2013-08-20 14:13:07 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: that won't change by using a separate instance <.<
 275 2013-08-20 14:13:13 <gmaxwell> kinlo: the common calculating of time-till-block fixates a non-memoryless system in people's minds "I'm not fast enough to get a block before the difficulty goes up".. and yet we all know mining is memoryless.
 276 2013-08-20 14:13:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that doesn't inspire confidence!
 277 2013-08-20 14:13:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I meant in response to [14:12:14] <jgarzik> my variance with 5x 60GH is above 333 Mhps
 278 2013-08-20 14:14:01 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: while true; do ./bfgminer . . . ; done
 279 2013-08-20 14:14:03 <Luke-Jr> ☺
 280 2013-08-20 14:14:23 <Luke-Jr> otoh
 281 2013-08-20 14:14:39 <Luke-Jr> I have to admit, plugging erupters into my colo machine screws up the minirig hardware somehow
 282 2013-08-20 14:14:46 <gmaxwell> hahah
 283 2013-08-20 14:14:46 <Luke-Jr> I have to power cycle the minirig when I add an erupter :<
 284 2013-08-20 14:15:02 * gmaxwell hands the trophy to jeff for this round
 285 2013-08-20 14:15:03 <Luke-Jr> not even sharing a USB hub either
 286 2013-08-20 14:15:18 <Luke-Jr> :p
 287 2013-08-20 14:15:33 <Luke-Jr> I've not had that kind of problem with my singles though
 288 2013-08-20 14:15:39 <Luke-Jr> on my desktop PC
 289 2013-08-20 14:15:58 <sipa> my erupters a still in the US, according tot eh tracker page
 290 2013-08-20 14:15:59 <jgarzik> monetarily speaking, it is worth it to simply set up an ancient laptop for the erupters
 291 2013-08-20 14:16:01 <sipa> to the
 292 2013-08-20 14:16:29 <jgarzik> but then, considering the time cost of all this, the erupters are even more net unprofitable :)
 293 2013-08-20 14:16:32 <kinlo> gmaxwell: I know but that's not how people think
 294 2013-08-20 14:16:57 <kinlo> jgarzik: it remains a hobby, so in a way it's entertainment therefore not to be calculated :)
 295 2013-08-20 14:17:03 <kinlo> (at least for me)
 296 2013-08-20 14:17:49 <winbtc_moarrr> Luke-Jr: cant there be enough resources for both litecoin and bitcoin?
 297 2013-08-20 14:18:45 <Luke-Jr> winbtc_moarrr: people who are helping voluntarily because they believe in bitcoin, can be offended if they find out they're helping with a scam instead
 298 2013-08-20 14:18:56 <Luke-Jr> and litecoin leeches tend to hide that
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 300 2013-08-20 14:19:25 <gmaxwell> <--offtopic--
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 306 2013-08-20 14:22:04 <winbtc_moarrr> Luke-Jr: why is litecoin a scam yet bitcoin isnt?
 307 2013-08-20 14:22:13 <winbtc_moarrr> Luke-Jr: are they not virtually identical?
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 309 2013-08-20 14:22:24 <Luke-Jr> winbtc_moarrr: now it's getting very off topic, but no, they're not
 310 2013-08-20 14:22:33 <winbtc_moarrr> oh ok
 311 2013-08-20 14:22:37 * winbtc_moarrr will shut up
 312 2013-08-20 14:22:49 <Luke-Jr> winbtc_moarrr: I also have to leave; if you want perhaps we can discuss it later in #eligius or something
 313 2013-08-20 14:23:01 <winbtc_moarrr> sure :)
 314 2013-08-20 14:23:18 <winbtc_moarrr> Supa is doing very well too, hes already paid off some of his debt :)
 315 2013-08-20 14:23:47 hnz has joined
 316 2013-08-20 14:23:53 <Luke-Jr> that is even more off-topic here
 317 2013-08-20 14:23:59 <winbtc_moarrr> oh sorry
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 337 2013-08-20 14:45:55 <sipa> ;;genrate 330
 338 2013-08-20 14:45:56 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 330.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 0.00326624764823 BTC per day and 0.00013609365201 BTC per hour.
 339 2013-08-20 14:46:45 <gmaxwell> Better off solo mining with that.  It's not an income source, it's a digital lottery ticket.
 340 2013-08-20 14:46:49 <gmaxwell> :P
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 347 2013-08-20 15:15:19 <jgarzik> man
 348 2013-08-20 15:15:27 <jgarzik> sipa's PGP signature list is long and impressive
 349 2013-08-20 15:16:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: mike on the other hand is a zen master
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 352 2013-08-20 15:17:37 <jgarzik> sipa > gmaxwell > petertodd, according to the view here ;p
 353 2013-08-20 15:17:41 <jgarzik> > jgarzik
 354 2013-08-20 15:17:47 <jgarzik> I need TD's fingerprint
 355 2013-08-20 15:17:49 <petertodd> lol
 356 2013-08-20 15:18:22 <TD> i only have my pgp key at home.
 357 2013-08-20 15:18:45 <petertodd> I keep mine in my wallet - the card reader on the other hand...
 358 2013-08-20 15:18:46 <TD> i need to make sure i have it in the various places i might want to use it
 359 2013-08-20 15:19:38 <petertodd> TD: you should use a subkey for that, or just do a "low security key" like I do
 360 2013-08-20 15:20:03 <petertodd> TD: might as well be able to learn what was compromised - shitty usability though :(
 361 2013-08-20 15:20:13 <sipa> jgarzik: i once participated in a FOSDEM keysigning party, with 200 people or so
 362 2013-08-20 15:20:15 <TD> i guess i should investigate that feature. i'm not sure how i'd revoke such a key if it were present or whether people would understand how to use it.
 363 2013-08-20 15:20:17 <TD> yeah
 364 2013-08-20 15:20:35 <TD> sipa: the interesting question is - how do you know the people whose keys you signed were really the people they claimed to be?
 365 2013-08-20 15:20:41 <jgarzik> Yeah, back in my Linux days there were many keysigning parties
 366 2013-08-20 15:20:51 <sipa> TD: i checked their ID
 367 2013-08-20 15:20:58 <petertodd> TD: there is a revsubkey or similar thing in GPG - it's all thought out in the standards fairly well, just not so much the UI's
 368 2013-08-20 15:21:06 <TD> i have a PKIX key issued for my email address
 369 2013-08-20 15:21:16 ThomasV has joined
 370 2013-08-20 15:21:20 <TD> so i guess S/MIME could be used to encrypt mails too. but then i suspect even fewer people know how to handle them
 371 2013-08-20 15:21:29 <sipa> TD: which is a relatively weak check, given that it had to happen quickly, but i did not sign any key for which i did *some* check
 372 2013-08-20 15:21:33 <TD> sipa: oh, you did? ok
 373 2013-08-20 15:21:38 <TD> that's cool
 374 2013-08-20 15:21:49 <TD> makes me want to implement my epassport-fu even more though :)
 375 2013-08-20 15:21:51 <petertodd> TD: yeah, mutt checks them, but who knows how good that check actually is - IE do the revoke bad CA's? dunno
 376 2013-08-20 15:21:52 <sipa> TD: you get a paper with all keys and identities in advance
 377 2013-08-20 15:22:02 <jgarzik> TD, BitPay is gonna deploy SINs
 378 2013-08-20 15:22:07 <TD> SINs?
 379 2013-08-20 15:22:15 vigilyn has joined
 380 2013-08-20 15:22:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: oh crazy, so it's not just a hobby side project
 381 2013-08-20 15:22:21 <sipa> TD: and then walk around, marking each one that matches
 382 2013-08-20 15:22:30 <TD> i see
 383 2013-08-20 15:22:32 <jgarzik> TD, anonymous passports if you will: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1
 384 2013-08-20 15:22:41 <TD> ah. nice. what's the first integration target?
 385 2013-08-20 15:22:47 <jgarzik> petertodd, yep, definitely found several uses
 386 2013-08-20 15:22:49 <petertodd> sipa: speaking of, you still haven't signed my key if you still have that card
 387 2013-08-20 15:22:57 <TD> if i was doing it i'd probably pick wordpress or something. allow you to post blog comments anonymously but with a passport
 388 2013-08-20 15:23:35 <petertodd> jgarzik: the fidelity bonded version too?
 389 2013-08-20 15:23:59 <jgarzik> TD / petertodd: internal, for now.  Assign people a SIN related to invoices or somesuch.  A totally separate use case just arose, too:  a local doctor wants to use SINs for AIDS-style anonymous test identities.
 390 2013-08-20 15:24:22 <jgarzik> petertodd, Type 2, non-sacrifice :/
 391 2013-08-20 15:24:52 <TD> what does SIN stand for?
 392 2013-08-20 15:24:56 <TD> something identity number?
 393 2013-08-20 15:25:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: well it's a start, although I'd be careful not to accidentally reimplement PGP if it goes in that direction...
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 398 2013-08-20 15:26:33 <TD> sipa: the thing is, if the people in keysigning parties are just checking government ID, you might as well short circuit that whole process and use zk-SNARKs to digest the ePassport certificate and combine it with a private key that way.
 399 2013-08-20 15:26:36 <jgarzik> TD, system identification number.  SIN comes from years-ago science fiction.
 400 2013-08-20 15:26:39 <TD> sipa: the tech doesn't exist yet but i feel sure it'sc lose
 401 2013-08-20 15:27:16 <sipa> TD: there's no problem with that, IMHO
 402 2013-08-20 15:27:17 <TD> jgarzik: what's the point of a type 2 SIN?
 403 2013-08-20 15:27:38 <sipa> TD: IMHO, the identity itself should specify what sort of verification it claims to pass
 404 2013-08-20 15:28:04 <sipa> TD: so if the identity is an e-mail address, i'm fine with signing if i have proof the owner of that key has access to that e-mail address
 405 2013-08-20 15:28:07 <petertodd> TD: heck, don't bother with fancy crypto, just use the ePassport cert to sign your key and timestamp it so later compromise isn't an issue
 406 2013-08-20 15:28:14 <sipa> if the identity is a picture, i'll sign when he looks like it
 407 2013-08-20 15:28:30 <sipa> if the identity is a government e-passport something, well
 408 2013-08-20 15:28:37 <TD> petertodd: i wouldn't be talking about the fancy crypto if it were optional. unfortunately not all passports can sign things. some of them are just literally bearer tokens
 409 2013-08-20 15:28:55 <TD> petertodd: there isn't even a list that i can find of which countries passports can sign challenges
 410 2013-08-20 15:29:02 <TD> but UK passports definitely can't. i think US passports can't either.
 411 2013-08-20 15:29:17 <gmaxwell> man, some passports can sign challenges? wild!
 412 2013-08-20 15:29:25 <TD> yeah. it's an anti-cloning feature.
 413 2013-08-20 15:29:33 <petertodd> TD: right, but my understanding was the pure bearer tokens don't help there - anyone can copy the token after all
 414 2013-08-20 15:29:45 <TD> i suspect quite a few governments decided to go with the cheaper chips that just store data because the physical anti-cloning features work well enough already
 415 2013-08-20 15:30:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, and lots of national ID cards too, and military id cards (like the US military ones)
 416 2013-08-20 15:30:16 ielo has joined
 417 2013-08-20 15:30:26 <TD> petertodd: hence the crypto magic. the idea is you convert your cert (signed copy of what's already on the paper passport) into a cert+public key where you retain the private key on your computer
 418 2013-08-20 15:30:30 nsillik has joined
 419 2013-08-20 15:30:30 <TD> then you can sign things with it
 420 2013-08-20 15:30:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: though my understanding is the US military ones do two way authentication, so you can't use at least one of the keys to sign unless the computer authenticates to the card as well
 421 2013-08-20 15:30:54 <TD> basically you run a provable program that takes in:      ePassport cert chain, your new ecdsa public key
 422 2013-08-20 15:31:14 <TD> + whatever public data you wish to include in the output "cert", like name/photo hash/date of birth/country of citizenship
 423 2013-08-20 15:31:23 <TD> the ePassport data is a private input. the rest are public.
 424 2013-08-20 15:31:24 <sipa> i'm sure in 10 years we'll have SCIP signatures proving the signer's DNA or something!
 425 2013-08-20 15:31:33 <petertodd> TD: right, but my point is because it's a token, you are risking compromise the second anyone gets physical access to your passport - quite worrying
 426 2013-08-20 15:31:36 <TD> the program accepts if the cert chain is valid. now you can present the public inputs and the acceptance proof as a cert.
 427 2013-08-20 15:32:05 <TD> well, someone who compromises your passport (thief or government) could generate a second keypair that is linked to the legal identity.
 428 2013-08-20 15:32:21 <TD> if they're uploaded to a keyserver, you wouldn't know which to use
 429 2013-08-20 15:32:24 <petertodd> TD: exactly
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 431 2013-08-20 15:32:30 <TD> but if you see two certificates linked to the same passport -> halt
 432 2013-08-20 15:32:37 <TD> (of course then rotation/revocation becomes an issue)
 433 2013-08-20 15:32:48 <petertodd> TD: granted, that's fair enough, although it gets ugly if participation isn't 100%
 434 2013-08-20 15:33:07 <TD> yeah
 435 2013-08-20 15:33:20 <petertodd> TD: if you assume 100% participation, just timestamping UID's associated with an emial addr is pretty good
 436 2013-08-20 15:33:22 i2pRelay has joined
 437 2013-08-20 15:33:41 <TD> with a GPG keysigning party, the "binding" is checking the face of the person in front of you vs the face in the ID dodcument
 438 2013-08-20 15:34:10 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 439 2013-08-20 15:34:17 <TD> with an entirely online system you need something else - like  if you see a presentation by someone or a photo, and want to contact them, you trust that the photo/presentation is "legitimate" and can do the face match yourself
 440 2013-08-20 15:34:19 vigilyn has joined
 441 2013-08-20 15:34:37 <TD> i think it's sufficient most of the time for someone to say "You can contact me using FooSystem"
 442 2013-08-20 15:34:53 <TD> then a user of FooSystem can just search their name facebook style, and verify the face that pops up is the one that is expected.
 443 2013-08-20 15:35:21 <petertodd> TD: incidentally, that's exactly how warren verified my key fingerprint - I just recorded a short video (wearing the same shirt!) which he compared to the video of my talk, along with other verifications (like the zillions of PGP signed emails...)
 444 2013-08-20 15:35:37 <petertodd> TD: indeed...
 445 2013-08-20 15:35:54 <petertodd> TD: what's google's name disambiguation policy for employees anyway?
 446 2013-08-20 15:36:02 <TD> for it to be practical i think ben-sassons SNARK system would need to be extended to have an efficient way to do RSA. not sure.
 447 2013-08-20 15:36:07 <TD> name disambiguation policy?
 448 2013-08-20 15:36:21 <petertodd> TD: IE I'm also named Mike Hearn, what @google.com email do I get?
 449 2013-08-20 15:36:35 <handle> Mike.Hearn.Jr@google.com
 450 2013-08-20 15:36:35 <handle> :D
 451 2013-08-20 15:36:38 <TD> you get to choose your own username when you are hired
 452 2013-08-20 15:36:40 <handle> ok maybe not
 453 2013-08-20 15:36:45 <TD> you get three choices.
 454 2013-08-20 15:37:01 <TD> so you get to choose. unless you're stupid like i was, of course, and choose "mike" "mikeh" or "mh"
 455 2013-08-20 15:37:01 <TD> lol
 456 2013-08-20 15:37:06 <TD> that's how i got stuck with hearn
 457 2013-08-20 15:37:07 <petertodd> TD: right, which does limit the "I'm mike hearn at google, find me", although not by much
 458 2013-08-20 15:37:28 <TD> sure, there was a name conflict at one point and lots of internal (postal) mail got accidentally routed to me after he left
 459 2013-08-20 15:38:01 <petertodd> heh, nice
 460 2013-08-20 15:38:09 <TD> name is a bit ambiguous by itself, but name+photo seems to work well enough to disambiguate everyone. at least it works fine for facebook and it's natural and intuitive.
 461 2013-08-20 15:38:28 <TD> that's why i like the ePassport idea. basically everyone who travels has one and the setup process can be just a two-step thing with a modern android phone.
 462 2013-08-20 15:38:42 <TD> just scan+hold, wait a bit, and now people can find you and send you end to end encrypted data
 463 2013-08-20 15:38:50 <TD> no key signing parties or key imports needed.
 464 2013-08-20 15:39:52 <petertodd> Well, it's not perfect, but just having better usability is probably worth it...
 465 2013-08-20 15:40:19 <TD> yeah. the most obvious angle of attack is governments cloning your passport and then doing a DoS by uploading a conflicting certificate
 466 2013-08-20 15:40:20 <petertodd> IMO just having a long history of PGP signed emails etc. is very convincing in of itself.
 467 2013-08-20 15:40:25 <petertodd> yup
 468 2013-08-20 15:40:27 <TD> yes
 469 2013-08-20 15:40:33 <petertodd> and it's nice to force them to go that far...
 470 2013-08-20 15:40:41 <TD> *if* you post to a lot of public mailing lists. which most people don't.
 471 2013-08-20 15:40:53 <TD> i was thinking about this in the context of how one might establish contact with a journalist like snowden did
 472 2013-08-20 15:40:55 Guest12825 has joined
 473 2013-08-20 15:41:11 <TD> that was obviously a very painful process, and unfortunately greenwald et al *still* don't seem to have any easily locatable pgp key
 474 2013-08-20 15:41:12 <petertodd> well obviously the journalist should be PGP signing their articles.. :/
 475 2013-08-20 15:41:45 <TD> end to end crypto for articles themselves? hah
 476 2013-08-20 15:42:16 <petertodd> it's bad enough forum software - like bitcointalk - just can't do it
 477 2013-08-20 15:42:46 <TD> once the payment protocol is further along, i'd like to write a tutorial on how to set up custom CAs. like, theymos should be able to issue certs for each forum user that they can use to sign payment requests
 478 2013-08-20 15:43:01 <TD> it's not all that hard really. MacOS even has a gui wizard for it!
 479 2013-08-20 15:43:07 <TD> it's buggy as hell but ... it's there.
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 481 2013-08-20 15:44:04 <jgarzik> journalists are tech-sad
 482 2013-08-20 15:44:24 <TD> s/journalists/all normal people including many computer science PhDs/
 483 2013-08-20 15:44:29 <TD> or did you never read "why jonny can't encrypt"?
 484 2013-08-20 15:44:38 <TD> wtf seriously? https://blockchain.info/address/1HackerRpwYH7F6uGu8422dScNxaHAtWYz
 485 2013-08-20 15:44:39 <TD> ugh
 486 2013-08-20 15:44:40 <jgarzik> During this NSA thing, a lot of reporters were "surprised to learn" that email going across the Internet was not encrypted / not private
 487 2013-08-20 15:45:12 <jgarzik> *facepalm*
 488 2013-08-20 15:45:17 * TD shrugs
 489 2013-08-20 15:45:18 <TD> it's not that obvious
 490 2013-08-20 15:45:26 <jgarzik> These are the people who are in charge of reporting this stuff to the general public
 491 2013-08-20 15:45:28 <TD> i mean, passwords and credit card data on the web was encrypted for years
 492 2013-08-20 15:45:43 <TD> it's not entirely unreasonable to assume email would be as well. especially as when you use webmail these days you see the little padlock
 493 2013-08-20 15:45:54 <TD> the fact that SMTP-TLS is sort of a joke, is not at all obvious. unless you're an internet engineer.
 494 2013-08-20 15:46:10 BGL has joined
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 496 2013-08-20 15:46:19 <TD> and the whole "all major providers are badly compromised" angle is kind of what's new and interesting. so i can't blame them for that.
 497 2013-08-20 15:46:51 <TD> now ..... when they still don't bother using crypto even afterwards. that is harder to forgive. it appears the Guardian has decided "all electronic communication is suspect, thus, we will deliver all important messages and documents by hand and suck up the cost of flying"
 498 2013-08-20 15:46:54 <TD> FAIL
 499 2013-08-20 15:47:00 kanyl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 501 2013-08-20 15:47:42 <petertodd> TD: I wouldn't call that fail at all *if* they encrypted the data on the harddrives - just good precautionary two-factor protection given who they are up against
 502 2013-08-20 15:48:06 <TD> that's great for handling their existing set of leaks
 503 2013-08-20 15:48:12 <TD> what about the next set? how do they expect to receive them, exactly?
 504 2013-08-20 15:48:14 <petertodd> TD: SMTP-TLS by default allows non-authenticated right?
 505 2013-08-20 15:48:30 <petertodd> TD: fair enough, they should have a PGP key right on their front page among other things...
 506 2013-08-20 15:48:31 <TD> AFAIK all major implementations fall back to non-TLS if they can't validate, yes, and many don't validate at all
 507 2013-08-20 15:48:35 <TD> right
 508 2013-08-20 15:49:31 <petertodd> I think it's funny how the only journalist I've seen doing that is Adrian Jeffries, who's roughly my age
 509 2013-08-20 15:49:36 <jgarzik> smtp includes starttls
 510 2013-08-20 15:49:44 <jgarzik> but huge providers fail to use it
 511 2013-08-20 15:49:50 <jgarzik> including google outgoing :/
 512 2013-08-20 15:50:06 <jgarzik> yahoo, [now dead?] hotmail, ...
 513 2013-08-20 15:50:17 <TD> no
 514 2013-08-20 15:50:21 <TD> google does use smtp-tls
 515 2013-08-20 15:50:36 <TD> the problem is most other providers don't support it. also, it's one of those "fall back to cleartext if tls is broken" setups
 516 2013-08-20 15:50:46 <jgarzik> TD, not always.  My exim installation, which is fully tls-safe, receives non-TLS from google.
 517 2013-08-20 15:50:49 agnostic_ has joined
 518 2013-08-20 15:51:00 <jgarzik> TD, have not nailed down the conditions, because it is not 100% either/or
 519 2013-08-20 15:51:11 <TD> i think it may have to be enabled manually per-provider or something. i know it is getting looked at more closely these days :)
 520 2013-08-20 15:51:34 <jgarzik> TD, of course, I am a statistical weirdo, running my own smtpd, unlike 99.9% of the planet
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 522 2013-08-20 15:52:04 <jgarzik> anyway, bbiaw
 523 2013-08-20 15:52:08 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you arent the only one :)
 524 2013-08-20 15:52:09 jgarzik has quit (Quit: apple apple apple)
 525 2013-08-20 15:52:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: hi five!
 526 2013-08-20 15:52:24 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 527 2013-08-20 15:52:33 * marcusw feels like part of the club
 528 2013-08-20 15:52:44 chorao has joined
 529 2013-08-20 15:53:19 <petertodd> Of course, given I have that email server on amazon EC2, it's not like it's secure or anything.
 530 2013-08-20 15:54:26 <TD> pond!
 531 2013-08-20 15:54:52 * BlueMatt votes for security review of pond
 532 2013-08-20 15:55:00 <BlueMatt> s/review/audit/
 533 2013-08-20 15:55:17 <TD> unfortunately the code uses lots of advanced crypto, and is written in Go
 534 2013-08-20 15:55:28 <BlueMatt> Go....yuck
 535 2013-08-20 15:56:21 <sipa> link?
 536 2013-08-20 15:56:28 <BlueMatt> pond.imperialviolet.org
 537 2013-08-20 15:56:38 t1488t has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 538 2013-08-20 15:56:49 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
 539 2013-08-20 15:56:53 <TD> agl really likes it for some reason. i can't really see what's so great about Go myself.
 540 2013-08-20 15:56:54 <sipa> ah, agl's page
 541 2013-08-20 15:57:09 <TD> but whatever. it's probably better than C :)
 542 2013-08-20 15:57:25 <BlueMatt> TD: I cant say Im a huge fan, but I havent done anything large with it, maybe Id fall in love if I spent tons of time on it
 543 2013-08-20 15:57:36 <sipa> i have way to little experience with it too judge it
 544 2013-08-20 15:57:41 <sipa> which is to say: none
 545 2013-08-20 15:59:32 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 546 2013-08-20 16:01:47 <TD> from a portability perspective it loses .... apparently building pond on a mac is a nightmare
 547 2013-08-20 16:02:08 <BlueMatt> building pond isnt easy to begin with...given it doesnt have a build system released
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 590 2013-08-20 17:22:46 swulf-- has joined
 591 2013-08-20 17:23:51 <swulf--> ERROR: CScriptCheck() : 7a79975c2e1db07afa5f9208b8d18266598ae962bda7f6ecd69920fa4be94c0f VerifySignature failed  -- blockchain.info says this txn is fine.. any idea what's wrong with it?
 592 2013-08-20 17:24:15 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 593 2013-08-20 17:24:16 gdoteof has joined
 594 2013-08-20 17:24:30 <gdoteof> i have a backed up wallet from the bitcoin-android app
 595 2013-08-20 17:24:34 <gdoteof> but don't have an android
 596 2013-08-20 17:24:47 <gdoteof> is it easier to just get an android or can i unlock it somehow from my ubuntu
 597 2013-08-20 17:25:00 <gmaxwell> swulf--: read the surrounding lines.
 598 2013-08-20 17:25:25 <swulf--> ERROR: Non-canonical signature: wrong length marker
 599 2013-08-20 17:25:25 <swulf--> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : ConnectInputs failed 7a79975c2e1db07afa5f9208b8d18266598ae962bda7f6ecd69920fa4be94c0f
 600 2013-08-20 17:25:44 <gmaxwell> Yup.
 601 2013-08-20 17:25:47 <gmaxwell> There you go.
 602 2013-08-20 17:25:48 joepie91 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 603 2013-08-20 17:25:59 <sipa> wrong length marker
 604 2013-08-20 17:26:02 <gmaxwell> The signature's DER encoding is malformed. Do you know what software created it?
 605 2013-08-20 17:26:02 <sipa> that's an original one
 606 2013-08-20 17:26:05 joepie91 has joined
 607 2013-08-20 17:26:11 Coincidental has joined
 608 2013-08-20 17:27:27 <Ry4an> gdoteof: probably "easier" to just download google's android emulator and import it, but certainly possible to do w/o.
 609 2013-08-20 17:27:57 <swulf--> wrong length marker?
 610 2013-08-20 17:27:57 <swulf--> hmm
 611 2013-08-20 17:28:23 <swulf--> part of the program, i presume?
 612 2013-08-20 17:29:12 <gmaxwell> swulf--: any idea what software authored this transaction?
 613 2013-08-20 17:29:36 <swulf--> i authored it by hand :)
 614 2013-08-20 17:29:42 <lianj> ^^
 615 2013-08-20 17:31:25 <swulf--> is this going to be a problem if some miner out there accepts the txn?
 616 2013-08-20 17:32:14 <gmaxwell> swulf--: your hand authoring needs work. :P
 617 2013-08-20 17:32:30 <gmaxwell> No, it has fairly low odds of getting mined anytime soon though.
 618 2013-08-20 17:32:35 <swulf--> gmaxwell: i've been doing it fine for a while, so this is a new one. It's why I'm here ;)
 619 2013-08-20 17:32:53 <swulf--> well, thats good :)
 620 2013-08-20 17:33:25 akl has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 621 2013-08-20 17:33:46 <gmaxwell> swulf--: by hand do you mean with some python code you found on the interwebs?
 622 2013-08-20 17:34:21 <swulf--> well, I pieced together my own code based on bitcoind src and the documentation on the web
 623 2013-08-20 17:34:52 <gmaxwell> well you dun goofed.
 624 2013-08-20 17:35:01 patcon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 625 2013-08-20 17:35:10 <swulf--> I dun did.
 626 2013-08-20 17:35:36 <swulf--> Is the length marker its referring to the byte length of a pushdata op in the script?
 627 2013-08-20 17:35:38 <gmaxwell> in any case, go look at the test that triggers "wrong length marker" and fix it.
 628 2013-08-20 17:35:43 <swulf--> ok
 629 2013-08-20 17:35:55 <gmaxwell> no. it's reffering to the lengths encoded in the der encoded signature, IIRC.
 630 2013-08-20 17:36:49 <swulf--> that's odd
 631 2013-08-20 17:38:13 digitalmagus2 has joined
 632 2013-08-20 17:39:21 paraipan has joined
 633 2013-08-20 17:39:50 <swulf--> gmaxwell: I'm guessing blockchain.info either uses the same stuff I did to generate the key, doesn't check it, or has a similar bug..
 634 2013-08-20 17:39:55 <swulf--> s/key/signature
 635 2013-08-20 17:39:56 Krellan__ has joined
 636 2013-08-20 17:40:30 <gmaxwell> swulf--: they're just not checking much, most likely.
 637 2013-08-20 17:40:33 xavier23 has joined
 638 2013-08-20 17:40:42 <swulf--> yeah.
 639 2013-08-20 17:40:43 <gmaxwell> swulf--: e.g., in the past: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/21mbtc.png
 640 2013-08-20 17:41:06 <swulf--> nice
 641 2013-08-20 17:44:28 <sipa> swulf--: can you paste the signature?
 642 2013-08-20 17:44:47 daybyter has joined
 643 2013-08-20 17:44:47 <swulf--> hrm
 644 2013-08-20 17:45:28 <Luke-Jr> so Canary has a Bitcoin-Qt on Windows, that is reporting LevelDB corruption even when started with -reindex
 645 2013-08-20 17:45:41 <swulf--> sipa: I'm not sure which input is the incorrect one
 646 2013-08-20 17:46:29 toffoo has joined
 647 2013-08-20 17:46:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: bleh :(
 648 2013-08-20 17:46:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: how can it be corrupt in the same initial session? :/
 649 2013-08-20 17:47:05 <sipa> Luke-Jr: there is always the possibility for bad ram, or os/disk problems
 650 2013-08-20 17:47:10 <Luke-Jr> LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
 651 2013-08-20 17:47:25 <swulf--> I got it once while doing -reindex as well
 652 2013-08-20 17:47:25 <sipa> but we see this way too often to just ascribe it to that
 653 2013-08-20 17:47:25 kanyl has joined
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 655 2013-08-20 17:47:25 kanyl has joined
 656 2013-08-20 17:50:15 <swulf--> sipa/gmaxwell: fwiw, this is the code that generates the signature: http://pastebin.com/wxhP6X6G
 657 2013-08-20 17:50:34 <swulf--> i'm probably doing something wrong here
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 662 2013-08-20 17:53:50 <jgarzik> what does a blank script look like?  varint indicating length zero, and that's it?
 663 2013-08-20 17:53:59 bitexchanger has joined
 664 2013-08-20 17:54:00 <jgarzik> txTmp.vin[i].scriptSig = CScript();
 665 2013-08-20 17:54:17 bitexchanger has left ()
 666 2013-08-20 17:54:18 <gmaxwell> swulf--: I'm python dumb, but you don't appear to be resizing the signature to the resulting siglen.
 667 2013-08-20 17:54:31 <swulf--> hmmm
 668 2013-08-20 17:55:02 <Diablo-D3> ;;ticker
 669 2013-08-20 17:55:02 <gribble> MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 119.60000, Best ask: 119.89998, Bid-ask spread: 0.29998, Last trade: 119.60000, 24 hour volume: 21739.00915439, 24 hour low: 116.67089, 24 hour high: 123.01111, 24 hour vwap: 120.34495
 670 2013-08-20 17:55:06 <Luke-Jr> CanaryInTheMine: so why do you assume the HD isn't bad?
 671 2013-08-20 17:55:07 <gmaxwell> swulf--: the signature is not a constant length, it returns the length.
 672 2013-08-20 17:55:11 <Luke-Jr> oh, the new SSD, right.
 673 2013-08-20 17:55:12 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 674 2013-08-20 17:55:15 <Luke-Jr> sipa: he tried another disk
 675 2013-08-20 17:55:17 <swulf--> gmaxwell: I'm double checking now
 676 2013-08-20 17:56:18 <swulf--> oh interesting, i see
 677 2013-08-20 17:56:24 <Luke-Jr> CanaryInTheMine: possible bad RAM?
 678 2013-08-20 17:58:27 <swulf--> gmaxwell: in the transaction, there are several zero bytes at the end of the signature in some of the scripts
 679 2013-08-20 17:58:39 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 680 2013-08-20 17:58:53 [Author] has joined
 681 2013-08-20 17:58:58 <swulf--> I think your find is correct
 682 2013-08-20 17:59:15 patcon has joined
 683 2013-08-20 17:59:36 Krellan__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 684 2013-08-20 17:59:56 <gmaxwell> Twenty years from now I will work as a consultant, and be paid to fly into places, where I will point at that spot in their python signing code and say "you forgot to resize the array" and collect my check. I can see it now.
 685 2013-08-20 18:00:04 Krellan_ has joined
 686 2013-08-20 18:00:07 BTCOxygen has joined
 687 2013-08-20 18:01:10 <Ry4an> :)
 688 2013-08-20 18:01:36 <swulf--> gmaxwell: what's your Bitcoin address? ;)
 689 2013-08-20 18:02:05 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 690 2013-08-20 18:02:43 <gmaxwell> swulf--: 1EzHALbEEYBjXjvE34cSWG5VEkUNrcMzfj
 691 2013-08-20 18:03:01 <swulf--> now I'm obligated ;)
 692 2013-08-20 18:03:06 CanaryInTheMine has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 693 2013-08-20 18:03:36 <gmaxwell> Nah, you never are. :P now if i sent a payment request, otoh...
 694 2013-08-20 18:03:43 CanaryInTheMine has joined
 695 2013-08-20 18:04:14 <swulf--> well, I'll draft a txn using this fix.
 696 2013-08-20 18:04:27 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 697 2013-08-20 18:04:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: CanaryInTheMine can't talk here?
 698 2013-08-20 18:05:41 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: channel +q non-registered with freenode.
 699 2013-08-20 18:07:27 <Luke-Jr> ah
 700 2013-08-20 18:07:32 <Luke-Jr> CanaryInTheMine: reg with freenode :P
 701 2013-08-20 18:09:13 CanaryInTheMine has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 702 2013-08-20 18:10:51 <ingsoc_> Lol.
 703 2013-08-20 18:11:49 CanaryInTheMine has joined
 704 2013-08-20 18:13:55 <gmaxwell> moment of truth?
 705 2013-08-20 18:14:10 <gmaxwell> I believe our canary is dead.
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 713 2013-08-20 18:22:27 <swulf--> gmaxwell: received?
 714 2013-08-20 18:22:56 gritball has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 715 2013-08-20 18:23:06 <gmaxwell> swulf--: thanks!
 716 2013-08-20 18:23:21 bitafterbit has joined
 717 2013-08-20 18:23:27 <swulf--> :)
 718 2013-08-20 18:25:30 <CanaryInTheMine> did it finally work?
 719 2013-08-20 18:25:37 <gmaxwell> IT WORKED.
 720 2013-08-20 18:25:42 <gmaxwell> WE GET SIGNAL.
 721 2013-08-20 18:25:54 * Cusipzzz waves at the canary
 722 2013-08-20 18:26:06 <CanaryInTheMine> fcuk!!!! make this simpler!!!! anyway back to issue
 723 2013-08-20 18:26:40 <CanaryInTheMine> so the smart info showed everything to be OK on th primary ssd drive.
 724 2013-08-20 18:26:51 <CanaryInTheMine> i bought a new ssd drive and set bitcoin to ruin from it
 725 2013-08-20 18:26:58 <CanaryInTheMine> same problem occurs
 726 2013-08-20 18:27:17 <CanaryInTheMine> i check memory with that mem check on windows boot, no issues reported
 727 2013-08-20 18:27:27 <gmaxwell> CanaryInTheMine: what issue happens?
 728 2013-08-20 18:27:32 <gmaxwell> (sorry, I missed the context)
 729 2013-08-20 18:27:44 <CanaryInTheMine> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263168.0
 730 2013-08-20 18:28:52 bitafterbit_ has joined
 731 2013-08-20 18:29:01 <gmaxwell> Does it get stuck at the same height every time?   Can you go into the debug.log and look for the first instance of INVALID and grab a few lines above and below.
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 737 2013-08-20 18:30:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: he doesn't get invalid
 738 2013-08-20 18:31:00 <Luke-Jr> LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
 739 2013-08-20 18:31:13 <Luke-Jr> (his old log had invalid, but -reindex one doesn't apparently)
 740 2013-08-20 18:31:21 <gmaxwell> hm. perhaps SATA bus corruption? interesting.
 741 2013-08-20 18:31:40 <swulf--> gmaxwell: so, thanks! that ecdsa_sign fix was indeed the issue
 742 2013-08-20 18:32:16 bitafterbit_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 743 2013-08-20 18:33:08 <gmaxwell> NEXT!
 744 2013-08-20 18:33:22 <gmaxwell> swulf--: you're welcome.
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 746 2013-08-20 18:33:40 <Cusipzzz> i want to be taller
 747 2013-08-20 18:33:55 <gmaxwell> swulf--: it helped that I'd seen exactly that mistake before: https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinlib/pull/6
 748 2013-08-20 18:33:55 <swulf--> gmaxwell: any reason why bitcoind didn't use MongoDB instead of LevelDB?  With all these leveldb problems....
 749 2013-08-20 18:34:15 <Scrat> swulf--: you best be trolling
 750 2013-08-20 18:34:20 <lianj> haha yea
 751 2013-08-20 18:34:21 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 752 2013-08-20 18:34:27 <swulf--> gmaxwell: wow!
 753 2013-08-20 18:34:42 <swulf--> scrat: er... is there something bad about MongoDB that I'm unaware of? :)
 754 2013-08-20 18:34:44 <gmaxwell> swulf--: thats why I was talking about that mental image of fixing the same bug over and over again 20 years from now.
 755 2013-08-20 18:34:49 <swulf--> quite the coincidence?
 756 2013-08-20 18:35:09 <gmaxwell> it's an impediance mismatch between C programmers and python ones, I think.
 757 2013-08-20 18:35:23 <lianj> swulf--: its totally different
 758 2013-08-20 18:35:32 <Scrat> swulf--: well for starters its a full fledged database, daemon and everything (= not embedded)
 759 2013-08-20 18:36:26 <gmaxwell> swulf--: no evidence of leveldb problems in this particular case yet. The error being reported there is that the CRC failed, so its data protection is probably working.  (we have had some problems with it, almost entirely on OSX and they usually don't look like that)
 760 2013-08-20 18:36:30 joepie91 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 761 2013-08-20 18:36:33 <swulf--> Right, I can see the embedded-ness being a concern
 762 2013-08-20 18:36:40 <Scrat> what you want is a fast and reliable embedded KV store
 763 2013-08-20 18:36:51 <swulf--> right
 764 2013-08-20 18:37:39 <swulf--> gmaxwell: all right. I can take your word on this one, since I know very little about bitcoind's usage of leveldb
 765 2013-08-20 18:38:40 <swulf--> gmaxwell: hey that python code you showed me (python-bitcoinlib) has a bug in it
 766 2013-08-20 18:38:48 <swulf--> line 78: assert 1 == ssl.ECDSA_sign(0, hash, len(hash), mb_sig, ctypes.byref(sig_size0), self.k)
 767 2013-08-20 18:38:59 <swulf--> python with optimizations (-O) will optimize out the signing
 768 2013-08-20 18:39:20 <gmaxwell> details....
 769 2013-08-20 18:39:23 <gmaxwell> 0_o
 770 2013-08-20 18:39:44 <gmaxwell> swulf--: you might want to go open a pull request there to fix that. :P
 771 2013-08-20 18:40:12 <swulf--> i'd say that's a pretty glaring bug, and tbh it's really not surprising it hasn't been found. nobody runs python with optimizations ;)
 772 2013-08-20 18:40:22 <swulf--> except maybe .exe packagers
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 786 2013-08-20 18:52:48 <CanaryInTheMine> if you guys need me to do anything to help let me know... i'll be away for a bit, but PMing on forum works... is there an app for this channel btw?
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 793 2013-08-20 18:56:06 <Luke-Jr> CanaryInTheMine: IRC in general has lots of apps
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 801 2013-08-20 19:14:08 <helo> hah, blockchain.info did indeed have RNG problems as well
 802 2013-08-20 19:14:46 <Ry4an> their android app or the web interface?
 803 2013-08-20 19:14:56 gmaxwell has quit (Quit: Changing server)
 804 2013-08-20 19:15:04 <helo> (recall that strangely coincidental case of stolen coin on Bitcoin Wallet and blockchain.info last week)
 805 2013-08-20 19:15:07 <helo> web interface
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 809 2013-08-20 19:16:39 <Ry4an> ouch
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 814 2013-08-20 19:19:19 <helo> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277595.msg2970668#msg2970668 for those interested... /ot
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 823 2013-08-20 19:27:06 <swulf--> gmaxwell: pull request created for python-bitcoinlib
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 829 2013-08-20 19:35:45 <jgarzik> swulf--, does your code take into account gmaxwell's change?
 830 2013-08-20 19:35:51 <jgarzik> swulf--, that was just merged
 831 2013-08-20 19:37:56 <swulf--> er, the one that added the _secret stuff?
 832 2013-08-20 19:39:14 <swulf--> I can fix/merge it quickly
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 834 2013-08-20 19:40:19 <jgarzik> swulf--, it appears to be correct and merge cleanly
 835 2013-08-20 19:40:28 <swulf--> awesome
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 847 2013-08-20 19:58:01 <petertodd> swulf--, gmaxwell: damn, I've been using python for years and that's the first time I've even heard of -O optimizations...
 848 2013-08-20 19:58:48 <swulf--> I'm really not surprised... it's such a trivially useful feature of the interpreter
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 917 2013-08-20 21:45:45 <Luke-Jr> spammed with socket no message in first 60 seconds, 1 0
 918 2013-08-20 21:45:49 <Luke-Jr> because my I/O sucks
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 922 2013-08-20 21:49:29 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no rpc to _list_ the bans?
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 924 2013-08-20 21:50:04 <Luke-Jr> LOL, good point
 925 2013-08-20 21:50:14 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: has anyone come up with a way of making the ban stuff actually useful for tor peers (which will all come from localhost)
 926 2013-08-20 21:50:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well, not totally crazy, you can find out from the log.
 927 2013-08-20 21:50:42 <gmaxwell> but thats asymetric and a bit odd.
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 929 2013-08-20 21:53:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the log likes to stop logging for me sometimes ://
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 931 2013-08-20 21:54:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: do you run with debug=1?
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 933 2013-08-20 21:55:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes
 934 2013-08-20 21:56:28 <gmaxwell> okay, not intenal rotation breaking it.
 935 2013-08-20 21:59:16 <Luke-Jr> it might be fixed since that 64-bit fseek thing
 936 2013-08-20 21:59:20 <Luke-Jr> I haven't checked lately
 937 2013-08-20 21:59:29 <Luke-Jr> was just commenting on the "banned IPs in logs"
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 944 2013-08-20 22:05:59 <AlexNagy> hey, how do I compile the working example at this link? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12480776/how-do-i-obtain-the-public-key-from-an-ecdsa-private-key-in-openssl
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 946 2013-08-20 22:07:50 <helo> yeah, that was quite a flood of orphan and already-spent transactions
 947 2013-08-20 22:09:32 <AlexNagy> helo ??
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 951 2013-08-20 22:10:11 <helo> AlexNagy: i do not know the answer to your question, sorry
 952 2013-08-20 22:10:21 <lianj> Applicat_: add #include <openssl/obj_mac.h>\n#include <assert.h>
 953 2013-08-20 22:10:28 <lianj> AlexNagy: ^
 954 2013-08-20 22:10:30 <AlexNagy> no, the ?? was in response to what you said.
 955 2013-08-20 22:10:56 <AlexNagy> lianj: It's all geek to me. I'm used to Perl and shell scripts.
 956 2013-08-20 22:11:16 <helo> AlexNagy: oh, just happened to notice a bunch of transactions bombarding my node for a little while
 957 2013-08-20 22:11:27 <helo> "i got better"
 958 2013-08-20 22:12:18 <AlexNagy> helo: ah (:
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 960 2013-08-20 22:14:34 <CodeShark> AlexNagy: -l ssl -l crypto
 961 2013-08-20 22:15:45 <CodeShark> gcc -o my_program my_program.c -l ssl -l crypto
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 963 2013-08-20 22:16:42 <CodeShark> oh, and what lianj said
 964 2013-08-20 22:17:33 <lianj> gcc $(pkg-config openssl --cflags --libs) t.c -o t
 965 2013-08-20 22:18:27 * AlexNagy cringes, and wonders if he could do the program in perl...
 966 2013-08-20 22:19:50 <CodeShark> you can always do shell commands - but that's sort of ugly :)
 967 2013-08-20 22:20:17 <CodeShark> there must be perl bindings for openssl, no?
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 969 2013-08-20 22:22:02 <AlexNagy> I have no idea. I've not done anything really advanced with Perl. My greatest feat was using Perl to interface fortune with my webserver for 404 error messages.
 970 2013-08-20 22:22:14 <CodeShark> it wouldn't hurt you to learn a little C/C++, though :)
 971 2013-08-20 22:22:34 <Luke-Jr> Perl ftw
 972 2013-08-20 22:22:56 <CodeShark> depends what you're trying to accomplish
 973 2013-08-20 22:24:09 <AlexNagy> I couldn't make it past Hashes in Learning Perl, so I think I've already hit the wall in my road to programming glory :p
 974 2013-08-20 22:24:27 <AlexNagy> I'll figure something out, though. (:
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 979 2013-08-20 22:26:07 <CodeShark> http://perl-openssl.sourceforge.net/
 980 2013-08-20 22:26:25 <CodeShark> hmm, no ECDSA?
 981 2013-08-20 22:29:23 <AlexNagy> there is one for python in FreeBSD ports: http://www.freshports.org/security/py-ecdsa/
 982 2013-08-20 22:30:18 <CodeShark> there are several for python
 983 2013-08-20 22:30:26 <AlexNagy> dinner time, later, and thanks for the tips. perhaps I'll actually figure out how to get that working example compiled.
 984 2013-08-20 22:32:13 <Luke-Jr> AlexNagy: hashes = dictionaries
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 987 2013-08-20 22:35:26 <CodeShark> hash is a bad term for it since it refers to a low level implementation of the high level idea
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 989 2013-08-20 22:35:55 <CodeShark> I like the term map :)
 990 2013-08-20 22:36:47 <sipa> 'hash' is isn't even the implementation - it's an implementation detail
 991 2013-08-20 22:36:57 <sipa> the implementation would be 'hash map' :)
 992 2013-08-20 22:37:05 <CodeShark> right, sipa
 993 2013-08-20 22:37:06 <Luke-Jr> <.<
 994 2013-08-20 22:37:21 <Luke-Jr> well, I define "hash" as the high-level concept of mapping keys to values efficiently
 995 2013-08-20 22:37:54 <CodeShark> I define hash as a function which takes input of arbitrary size and maps it to an output of a fixed size
 996 2013-08-20 22:37:55 <sipa> i define it as a function to map arbitrary-length data elements to a fixed set :)
 997 2013-08-20 22:37:58 <CodeShark> :)
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1001 2013-08-20 22:39:50 <gavinandresen> sipa: what magic incantation is needed to get the leveldb sync fix into the 0.8.4 branch?
1002 2013-08-20 22:39:51 i2pRelay has joined
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1004 2013-08-20 22:40:00 <gavinandresen> … git subtree ??something??
1005 2013-08-20 22:40:54 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1006 2013-08-20 22:40:59 <CodeShark> git subtree kicks ass
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1008 2013-08-20 22:42:09 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: if so, it's not because it requires special handling to do a cherry-pick <.<
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1010 2013-08-20 22:42:54 <sipa> gavinandresen: i think just cherry-picking the commit may be enough, but i'll do a subtree merge
1011 2013-08-20 22:42:57 <sipa> sec
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1015 2013-08-20 22:44:06 <sipa> done
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1018 2013-08-20 22:48:08 * AlexNagy yawns
1019 2013-08-20 22:48:11 <gavinandresen> thanks!
1020 2013-08-20 22:52:00 <AlexNagy> I had learning Perl 3rd Edition and I couldn't even get the example code from the chapter on hashes to execute properly. ):
1021 2013-08-20 22:52:22 mappum has joined
1022 2013-08-20 22:52:38 * jgarzik was a Perl magician; now that's like calling yourself a garbage magician.
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1024 2013-08-20 22:53:08 <Luke-Jr> who here has used bitcoin.pl?
1025 2013-08-20 22:53:44 * Luke-Jr watches the tumbleweed
1026 2013-08-20 22:54:05 * starsoccer jumps and stamps the tumbleweed into dust
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1031 2013-08-20 22:56:35 <AlexNagy> didn't know there was a perl version. :p If it's anything like Pan, though, I'll pass. I loved Pan but it ate my resources.
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1033 2013-08-20 22:57:22 <gavinandresen> 0.8.4rc1 ready to be tagged, I think:  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/0.8.4
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1035 2013-08-20 22:57:37 <warren> gavinandresen: need gitian?
1036 2013-08-20 22:58:05 <gavinandresen> warren: yes, assuming there is consensus those commits look reasonable
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1039 2013-08-20 22:58:30 <warren> gavinandresen: I see the leveldb patch doesn't give credit to the author, are we ok with that?
1040 2013-08-20 22:58:50 <gavinandresen> warren: leveldb folks explicitly did not want credit last time
1041 2013-08-20 22:58:58 <warren> ok, just checking
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1044 2013-08-20 22:59:09 <gavinandresen> (well, they didn't want to be mentioned in the bitcoin release notes)
1045 2013-08-20 23:00:06 <warren> I'm comparing this to my proposed tree
1046 2013-08-20 23:00:12 <warren> I tested only my proposed tree
1047 2013-08-20 23:00:39 <warren> gavinandresen: only difference is the nacked non-standard tx print thing?
1048 2013-08-20 23:01:09 <gavinandresen> warren: probably. I think we cherry-picked the same commits, might be a difference where there was a merge conflict
1049 2013-08-20 23:01:35 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: a few newer merges I haven't read over in there, but looks ok
1050 2013-08-20 23:03:10 <warren> gavinandresen: if folks are certain about the fsync and bloom patch being good, then I suggest we go ahead with 0.8.4 tagging and gitian.sigs, invite people to test it harder before it becomes official?  call it rc1 until official?
1051 2013-08-20 23:03:23 <jgarzik> petertodd, do you just run the python-bitcoinlib tests manually via "python $filename.py"?  Or is there some wonderful test framework that slurps up the current tests?
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1053 2013-08-20 23:04:27 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, ever tried python-bitcoinlib under python3?
1054 2013-08-20 23:04:30 <gavinandresen> warren: yes, leveldb "fix" needs rc1… final cycle -- I want to make sure it doesn't cause more problems on OSX that it solves
1055 2013-08-20 23:04:47 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: not yet
1056 2013-08-20 23:04:51 <sipa> branch looks ok
1057 2013-08-20 23:05:22 <warren> how about 0.8.4 is (rc1) until we call it otherwise, and if necessary make 0.8.5 if we have a "oops".
1058 2013-08-20 23:05:40 <sipa> wait
1059 2013-08-20 23:05:54 <jgarzik> we need at least an -rc1
1060 2013-08-20 23:05:56 <jgarzik> IMO
1061 2013-08-20 23:06:05 <gavinandresen> sipa: wait??? I just:   * [new tag]         v0.8.4rc1 -> v0.8.4rc1
1062 2013-08-20 23:06:18 <warren> oh, do we gitian.sigs rc's?
1063 2013-08-20 23:06:28 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: 0x100000000L is invalid syntax
1064 2013-08-20 23:06:50 <Luke-Jr> warren: usually
1065 2013-08-20 23:06:51 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, what is valid syntax that works on 2 + 3?
1066 2013-08-20 23:07:08 <gavinandresen> warren: yes, we gitian sig rc's.  Otherwise we'd find that gitian was broken on supposedly "final" releases
1067 2013-08-20 23:07:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: see README :)
1068 2013-08-20 23:07:25 <warren> gavinandresen: ok, I should proceed with gitian now?
1069 2013-08-20 23:07:31 <warren> gavinandresen: I'm calling in my team
1070 2013-08-20 23:07:40 <gavinandresen> sipa said wait...
1071 2013-08-20 23:07:44 <sipa> where's the mempool orphan fix?
1072 2013-08-20 23:07:46 <jgarzik> petertodd, heh, nice :)
1073 2013-08-20 23:08:02 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: 0x100000000 ?
1074 2013-08-20 23:08:07 <sipa> f0784ac470a5541343e7985ceb0cb3c28d9a964e
1075 2013-08-20 23:09:11 <AlexNagy> okay, so my address is a hash of the private key the protocol uses, generated with openssl?
1076 2013-08-20 23:09:27 <sipa> AlexNagy: of the _public_ key
1077 2013-08-20 23:09:38 <AlexNagy> sipa: oh. okay. of the public key.
1078 2013-08-20 23:09:50 <gavinandresen> sipa: good catch, I think I missed that one
1079 2013-08-20 23:10:24 <AlexNagy> and the public key is found after a private key is generated using ecdsa and if you have the private key it's easy(ish) to find the public key?
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1081 2013-08-20 23:10:34 <petertodd> Luke-Jr, jgarzik: lots of stuff needs to be fixed for py3 compat
1082 2013-08-20 23:10:50 <CodeShark> AlexNagy: yes
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1085 2013-08-20 23:11:39 <sipa> AlexNagy: finding the pubkey from the private key is about as hard as creating a signature (around 0.1ms on decent hardware)
1086 2013-08-20 23:11:50 <warren> https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/commits/btc084mark2  here's an earlier version of my proposed btc0.8.4 branch that we tested.
1087 2013-08-20 23:11:55 <CodeShark> it's essentially an elliptic curve multiplication
1088 2013-08-20 23:12:11 <jgarzik> petertodd, if it encourages further submissions, I would accept PEP 8 patches and such
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1090 2013-08-20 23:12:14 <AlexNagy> CodeShark: if it's not trig I have no clue what you're talking about. :p
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1092 2013-08-20 23:12:31 <sipa> AlexNagy: lol, no
1093 2013-08-20 23:12:33 <gavinandresen> sipa: cherry-picking f0784ac470a5541343e7985ceb0cb3c28d9a964e ....
1094 2013-08-20 23:12:37 <CodeShark> it's not too far from trig, though :)
1095 2013-08-20 23:12:43 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: script.py has some mixing of tabs and spaces that neither I nor Python3 can figure out how to interpret :x
1096 2013-08-20 23:12:53 <CodeShark> the concept can be explained with some elementary geometry and algebra
1097 2013-08-20 23:12:58 <petertodd> jgarzik: I want to actually write a client-ish app, especially one that does a lot of tx manipulation, to figure out what the API should look like
1098 2013-08-20 23:13:16 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: really? I thought I got rid of all the tabs
1099 2013-08-20 23:13:22 <AlexNagy> CodeShark: I suck at both. Like I said, its trig or nothing :p
1100 2013-08-20 23:13:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: ack
1101 2013-08-20 23:13:23 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: if you explain it over complex numbers it is completely non-obvious why its secure.
1102 2013-08-20 23:13:23 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: :<
1103 2013-08-20 23:13:46 <Luke-Jr> looks like 2to3 can't figure it out either
1104 2013-08-20 23:13:54 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, would love to support py3, as long as py2 is not broken
1105 2013-08-20 23:14:08 <jgarzik> +1 for any convergence changes
1106 2013-08-20 23:14:08 <CodeShark> why it's secure is another matter entirely, gmaxwell - in fact, whether or not it *is* secure is still an open problem :)
1107 2013-08-20 23:14:21 * Luke-Jr doesn't know why people still use obsolete py2 <.<
1108 2013-08-20 23:14:23 <jgarzik> +1 for any additional tests
1109 2013-08-20 23:14:36 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, widespread, like Windows XP :)
1110 2013-08-20 23:14:47 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I've almost purged it from my systems entirely.
1111 2013-08-20 23:14:51 <petertodd> jgarzik: may be doable, and with cython py2 and py3 would be automatic
1112 2013-08-20 23:14:53 <gavinandresen> sipa: pushed, with a merge conflict resolved
1113 2013-08-20 23:15:07 <jgarzik> the occasional 2/3 shim code is fine
1114 2013-08-20 23:15:10 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: google sitll hasn't released protocolbuf for py3 unfortunately
1115 2013-08-20 23:15:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you are many things, my friend, but representative of other people is not one of them.
1116 2013-08-20 23:15:23 <jgarzik> as long as the core bitcoin code is not laden with "if (2) else 3"
1117 2013-08-20 23:15:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, rofl
1118 2013-08-20 23:16:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: actually py3 is getting more traction than you'd realize if you weren't in the community, although py-tonal isn't. (that joke would be so much funnier if python was at version > 10...)
1119 2013-08-20 23:16:37 <jgarzik> py3 improvements are quite nice.  No technical obstacle.
1120 2013-08-20 23:16:54 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the summer intern here (an arch user) was fussing about having to install python 3. So I am are aware that it goes beyond luke.
1121 2013-08-20 23:16:56 <gavinandresen> … just legacy libraries....
1122 2013-08-20 23:17:39 AlexNagy has left ("Leaving")
1123 2013-08-20 23:17:49 <sipa> gavinandresen: looks good
1124 2013-08-20 23:18:31 <gavinandresen> Ok, re-tagging 0.8.4rc1...
1125 2013-08-20 23:19:02 sacrelege has joined
1126 2013-08-20 23:19:06 <petertodd> jgarzik: in any case something I'd really recommend is chaning digests - what would be uint160/uint256 on cbitcoin - to byte subclasses. It causes some ugly problems right now, and will make it harder to do cython or similar in the future.
1127 2013-08-20 23:19:14 <gavinandresen> * [new tag]         v0.8.4rc1 -> v0.8.4rc1
1128 2013-08-20 23:19:26 <gavinandresen> warren: NOW you can round up gitian builders...
1129 2013-08-20 23:19:36 <warren> gavinandresen: rounding
1130 2013-08-20 23:21:38 <Luke-Jr> why does Python have 3 or 4 pairs of functions that all do hex<->bin translation? -.-
1131 2013-08-20 23:21:40 darknyan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1132 2013-08-20 23:21:40 Eiii has joined
1133 2013-08-20 23:22:02 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, seems like JS has same annoyance
1134 2013-08-20 23:22:27 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: the really annoying thing about Python is that it insists hex isn't a string
1135 2013-08-20 23:22:50 <gavinandresen> I bet if we looked we'd find 3 or 4 in the bitcoin source (ours, openssl's, leveldb's….)
1136 2013-08-20 23:22:51 <Luke-Jr> so you have to encode it (ascii works) first
1137 2013-08-20 23:23:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: but we're not providing a hex<->bin library with them :p
1138 2013-08-20 23:23:51 <jgarzik> things I am sick of, after doing C, C++, python and JS bitcoin coding:  hex to bin, bin to hex, byte string reversing and swapping
1139 2013-08-20 23:23:53 <Luke-Jr> Python has binascii.[un]hexlify, binascii.{a2b,b2a}_hex, bytes.fromhex at least
1140 2013-08-20 23:24:23 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, … with all different performance profiles, no doubt
1141 2013-08-20 23:24:46 darknyan has joined
1142 2013-08-20 23:24:56 * Luke-Jr wonders what '…' is supposed to be :x
1143 2013-08-20 23:25:11 <sipa> ascii 5?
1144 2013-08-20 23:26:40 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
1145 2013-08-20 23:26:47 <CodeShark> I still remember when each C++ project had its own string class :p
1146 2013-08-20 23:26:55 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1147 2013-08-20 23:27:01 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: damn close to a UI security hole...
1148 2013-08-20 23:27:03 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: why is it that they didn't use std::string?
1149 2013-08-20 23:27:12 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ?
1150 2013-08-20 23:27:14 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: yes, this was before STL
1151 2013-08-20 23:27:30 <Luke-Jr> oh, STL wasn't part of C++ originally? :o
1152 2013-08-20 23:27:42 <gavinandresen> nope
1153 2013-08-20 23:27:43 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: might be able to fool a user into thinking the inverse text wasn't part of the document
1154 2013-08-20 23:27:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: at least on my machine it shows up as an inverse 'E'
1155 2013-08-20 23:28:15 <jgarzik> STL was SGI, IIRC
1156 2013-08-20 23:28:39 <gavinandresen> yep. I was working on the Inventor group, they recruited us to be guinea pigs
1157 2013-08-20 23:29:03 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: shows up as an 'a' with something on top of it for me
1158 2013-08-20 23:29:15 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: so what's that character supposed to be? :p
1159 2013-08-20 23:29:45 <sipa> jgarzik: the glibc stl header files still say copyright SGI iirc
1160 2013-08-20 23:30:00 <gavinandresen> Hey, while we're on the subject of languages….
1161 2013-08-20 23:30:12 <gavinandresen> … when do y'all think we should start using C++11 features?
1162 2013-08-20 23:30:12 awishformore has joined
1163 2013-08-20 23:30:16 <sipa> YES
1164 2013-08-20 23:30:24 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: I'm already using them in other projects
1165 2013-08-20 23:30:25 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: are you sure you trust Windows with those? :p
1166 2013-08-20 23:30:27 <CodeShark> extensively :)
1167 2013-08-20 23:30:33 <sipa> as soon as we can get rid of that ancient gitian
1168 2013-08-20 23:30:40 <gjs278> when there's a working makefile that you can just type "make" on it and it works
1169 2013-08-20 23:31:02 <Luke-Jr> gjs278: first you need to type ./configure
1170 2013-08-20 23:31:11 <sipa> ./autogen.sh :)
1171 2013-08-20 23:31:20 <gavinandresen> I think I'm ok getting rid of that ancient gitian, but I think that means not supporting ancient versions of Linux
1172 2013-08-20 23:31:25 <gavinandresen> (which I'm also OK with)
1173 2013-08-20 23:31:28 <gjs278> if you want to compile bitcoin from scratch, first you must create the universe
1174 2013-08-20 23:31:34 <CodeShark> I won't miss them, gavinandresen
1175 2013-08-20 23:31:36 <gavinandresen> (or, at least, not supporting binaries for ancient versions of Linux)
1176 2013-08-20 23:32:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: auto types, smart for loops... i guess you'd consider move semantics too obscure?
1177 2013-08-20 23:32:18 agnostic98 has joined
1178 2013-08-20 23:32:27 <Luke-Jr> ancient Ubuntu is losing official support any month now anyway
1179 2013-08-20 23:32:34 <Luke-Jr> probably before 0.9 is tagged at least
1180 2013-08-20 23:33:09 <gavinandresen> auto types and smart for loops, definitely.  Move semantics sounds like premature optimization to me
1181 2013-08-20 23:33:16 <Luke-Jr> probably safe to just make sure we can build with Debian, Fedora, and Gentoo stable
1182 2013-08-20 23:33:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: i've been using explicit swaps already
1183 2013-08-20 23:33:31 <sipa> gavinandresen: due to lack of it :)
1184 2013-08-20 23:33:44 <Luke-Jr> s/Fedora/RedHat?
1185 2013-08-20 23:33:46 <CodeShark> lambdas? variadic templates?
1186 2013-08-20 23:34:10 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1187 2013-08-20 23:34:20 <CodeShark> built-in thread support
1188 2013-08-20 23:34:25 <gavinandresen> I'm not a big fan of lots of lambdas, I think they make code hard to read
1189 2013-08-20 23:34:47 <CodeShark> the alternative is callbacks in other parts of code (for any type of async I/O at least)
1190 2013-08-20 23:34:52 <gavinandresen> … and as long as using a variadic template doesn't mean 11 pages of compiler errors if I make a typo....
1191 2013-08-20 23:34:53 sserrano44 has joined
1192 2013-08-20 23:34:56 <CodeShark> I think inlining a lambda often makes it easier to read
1193 2013-08-20 23:35:01 <sipa> Canonical provided support for the desktop version of Ubuntu 10.04 until 9 May 2013, but intends to support the server version until April 2015. The same dates apply to Kubuntu 10.04, which is built on KDE.
1194 2013-08-20 23:35:20 <gavinandresen> little lambdas are fine.
1195 2013-08-20 23:35:44 <gmaxwell> λ vs Λ  ?
1196 2013-08-20 23:35:59 <sipa> haha
1197 2013-08-20 23:36:06 <gavinandresen> mary had a little lambda...
1198 2013-08-20 23:36:41 btcbtc has joined
1199 2013-08-20 23:36:52 <sipa> ^- it's already unsupported on desktops at least, and we're not going to wait for the server one to expire i hope...
1200 2013-08-20 23:37:30 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, and now you know why i stopped updating thet nginx PPAs for Lucid, and only worked on Precise and later xD
1201 2013-08-20 23:37:45 <TheLordOfTime> but yeah, lucid (10.04) is old.
1202 2013-08-20 23:37:48 <Luke-Jr> looks like GCC 4.4.4 for RedHat
1203 2013-08-20 23:37:59 <sipa> oh, and -flto !!!
1204 2013-08-20 23:38:00 <Luke-Jr> 4.6.3 for Gentoo
1205 2013-08-20 23:38:04 <Luke-Jr> 4.7.2 for Debian
1206 2013-08-20 23:38:22 <sipa> and unordered_map !
1207 2013-08-20 23:38:53 <gavinandresen> I get the feeling sipa will be crushed if "we" decide we can't move towards full c++11.....
1208 2013-08-20 23:39:16 <sipa> then i'll fork bitcoin11 !!!
1209 2013-08-20 23:39:24 <sipa> you can't let that happen gavinandresen
1210 2013-08-20 23:39:24 <gavinandresen> ELEVEN!
1211 2013-08-20 23:39:33 <warren> gavinandresen: https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/pull/9
1212 2013-08-20 23:39:42 <Luke-Jr> is LTO even standard GCC yet?
1213 2013-08-20 23:39:54 <sipa> there is a "standard" GCC? :o
1214 2013-08-20 23:40:10 <Luke-Jr> auto vars was 4.4, so that's good for sure
1215 2013-08-20 23:40:46 <gmaxwell> F19: gcc version 4.8.1 20130603 (Red Hat 4.8.1-1) (GCC)
1216 2013-08-20 23:40:49 <Luke-Jr> lambdas are 4.5, so that kills RedHat
1217 2013-08-20 23:41:11 <Luke-Jr> variadic templates are 4.3, good
1218 2013-08-20 23:41:36 <Luke-Jr> TLS is 4.8, not stable anywhere
1219 2013-08-20 23:41:39 <gmaxwell> god knows we really don't want to to excercising all the bleeding edge compiler/language features in any case. :P
1220 2013-08-20 23:41:40 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds)
1221 2013-08-20 23:41:53 <gavinandresen> OSX 10.5 release (compiling 0.8.4 now) uses g++-4.2, we might need to drop support for 10.5 if we move too far forward
1222 2013-08-20 23:42:11 <sipa> 4.2?
1223 2013-08-20 23:42:17 <gavinandresen> (I think we SHOULD drop 10.5 support, too)
1224 2013-08-20 23:42:27 * sipa is relieved
1225 2013-08-20 23:42:32 <warren> gavinandresen: we have weird bug reports from a 10.5 user
1226 2013-08-20 23:42:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: reasonable idea to say the bleeding edge stuff isn't to be used in consensus critical...
1227 2013-08-20 23:42:36 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: IIRC Apple dropped 10.5 support
1228 2013-08-20 23:43:03 <sipa> how about we drop apple support?
1229 2013-08-20 23:43:08 <warren> +1
1230 2013-08-20 23:43:11 * sipa ducks
1231 2013-08-20 23:43:22 <gmaxwell> considering that we've been surviving with OSX hardly working at all, ... confining to newer versions makes sense.
1232 2013-08-20 23:43:35 <gmaxwell> Though I do hear that a lot of people are on 10.6 still for varrious reasons.
1233 2013-08-20 23:43:41 <warren> I like the word "confining"
1234 2013-08-20 23:43:50 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
1235 2013-08-20 23:44:10 <gmaxwell> petertodd: meh, then you get the cost of reasoning about the risk. And if the new feature breaks a cool static analysis tool you want to use, well.. it's broken.
1236 2013-08-20 23:44:36 <gmaxwell> not worth thinking about too much in any case.
1237 2013-08-20 23:44:46 * gmaxwell looks forward to using LTO
1238 2013-08-20 23:44:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I mean, if you are going to use it at all, don't start with script.cpp
1239 2013-08-20 23:44:52 <Luke-Jr> someone will complain "10.5 is the newest version for PPC!"
1240 2013-08-20 23:45:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: cause we work awesome on that. (I have a dual G5 10.5 host sitting under my feet right now, right next to another one with the same hardware and debian unstable)
1241 2013-08-20 23:46:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell:  :P
1242 2013-08-20 23:46:32 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1243 2013-08-20 23:46:34 <sipa> -flto is considered stable since gcc 4.6
1244 2013-08-20 23:46:43 <warren> 10.5 users are better off with multibit (assuming multibit is fixed to be less scary)
1245 2013-08-20 23:47:39 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1246 2013-08-20 23:48:01 one_zero has joined
1247 2013-08-20 23:48:18 ielo has joined
1248 2013-08-20 23:48:29 <petertodd> Someone has succesfully synced a Android bitcoin wallet with a 0.8.4 node right? Because I'm trying, and it doesn't seem to be working.
1249 2013-08-20 23:48:48 Darwerft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1250 2013-08-20 23:49:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I synced multibit. Whats happening for you?
1251 2013-08-20 23:49:41 <gmaxwell> (well not on 0.8.4, but with my change, lemme grab 0.8.4)
1252 2013-08-20 23:49:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: first five tx's of history showed up, and now it's just sitting there, although my debug.log shows lots of tx's being received
1253 2013-08-20 23:50:06 <petertodd> I just checked on 0.8.3, and it's fine
1254 2013-08-20 23:50:40 <petertodd> keep in mind this using only that node as a peer
1255 2013-08-20 23:50:57 <gmaxwell> can you try again? I think bitcoinj can get hung if a new block happens during the sync. but hm. a little troubling.
1256 2013-08-20 23:51:08 btcbtc has joined
1257 2013-08-20 23:51:14 Application has joined
1258 2013-08-20 23:51:18 <CodeShark> I had a similar bug in my implementation that I recently fixed, gmaxwell :)
1259 2013-08-20 23:51:23 <gmaxwell> (I believe I saw similar behavior to what you're describing on an unmodified git node)
1260 2013-08-20 23:51:46 <gmaxwell> petertodd: do you have a log? did it show an orphan block right when it stopped?
1261 2013-08-20 23:51:59 Applicat_ has joined
1262 2013-08-20 23:53:36 <warren> gavinandresen: this being only a rc, and I seriously need to nap before my bitcoin talk tonight, I'm not submitting gitian.sigs until later.  I asked my team to do it  but they are not available now.  Please consider the README.md PR, that equivalent helped my team to understand how to participate better.
1263 2013-08-20 23:53:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: nope
1264 2013-08-20 23:53:48 * warren zzz
1265 2013-08-20 23:55:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: no log or no orphan?
1266 2013-08-20 23:55:54 yubrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1267 2013-08-20 23:56:00 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1268 2013-08-20 23:56:08 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1269 2013-08-20 23:56:16 wei_ has joined
1270 2013-08-20 23:56:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: neither actually
1271 2013-08-20 23:57:00 <petertodd> starting a fresh log now
1272 2013-08-20 23:57:10 <gmaxwell> I mean on the bitcoinj device.
1273 2013-08-20 23:57:22 <petertodd> oh, no, it's a stock android phone, not rooted
1274 2013-08-20 23:57:27 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1275 2013-08-20 23:59:32 <gmaxwell> whats this mean?
1276 2013-08-20 23:59:33 <gmaxwell> 16:58:34.673 [New I/O worker #1] INFO  com.google.bitcoin.core.Peer - Passed the fast catchup time, discarding 294 headers and requesting full blocks