1 2013-08-21 00:00:05 <petertodd> beats me
2 2013-08-21 00:01:27 <gmaxwell> okay, looking at the code I think 'full' is perhaps misleading ther.
3 2013-08-21 00:02:06 <sipa> i figure it means full (filtered) blocks, rather than just headers
4 2013-08-21 00:02:16 <sipa> having passed the birthday of the wallet
5 2013-08-21 00:02:20 <petertodd> seems to definitely be a 0.8.4 issue - just compiled 0.8.3 and it immediately works
6 2013-08-21 00:02:24 <petertodd> same machine
7 2013-08-21 00:03:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: yep.
8 2013-08-21 00:03:10 <sipa> bah
9 2013-08-21 00:03:22 <gmaxwell> this is why we test.
10 2013-08-21 00:04:46 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: you mean software doesn't usually just work perfectly the first time you build it?
11 2013-08-21 00:05:00 <petertodd> CodeShark: that only happens with haskell, and solder
12 2013-08-21 00:05:03 <gmaxwell> petertodd: good thing you seem to have a reliable repro... I suppose you can just start backing out patches?
13 2013-08-21 00:05:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: just about to try it minus your bloom one
14 2013-08-21 00:07:56 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: not familiar with solder - are you talking about PCBs?
15 2013-08-21 00:07:57 <petertodd> ok, so the issue is the bloom patch
16 2013-08-21 00:08:02 <petertodd> CodeShark: yup :)
17 2013-08-21 00:08:47 <CodeShark> soldering is more analogous to compiling/linking than to writing code
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19 2013-08-21 00:09:45 <gmaxwell> petertodd: do at least give it another try too.
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21 2013-08-21 00:10:01 <CodeShark> before soldering presumably you have built working prototypes on breadboards
22 2013-08-21 00:10:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: working on it
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24 2013-08-21 00:12:02 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: solder works the first time because you just define the product as working. :P
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26 2013-08-21 00:13:37 <gmaxwell> hm.
27 2013-08-21 00:13:49 <gmaxwell> great.
28 2013-08-21 00:15:00 <petertodd> oh, I see it, I think filterclear ends up with the filter in the full state...
29 2013-08-21 00:15:16 <petertodd> due to: CBloomFilter() : isFull(true) {}
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32 2013-08-21 00:16:08 <petertodd> well, specifically pfrom->pfilter = new CBloomFilter();, which winds up setting isFull
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34 2013-08-21 00:19:46 <gmaxwell> petertodd: does it call filterclear and then start using the filter again?
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37 2013-08-21 00:27:00 <jgarzik> hrm. As expected, pubkey order in a P2SH-bound script is set in stone at addmultisig time
38 2013-08-21 00:27:24 hsmiths has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
39 2013-08-21 00:27:26 <jgarzik> (meaning all parties must addmultisig the pubkeys in same order, to get same scripthash)
40 2013-08-21 00:28:07 * jgarzik had hoped there was a sort() or something, to make that a bit less sensitive to ordering input variance
41 2013-08-21 00:29:51 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: there is not on the principle that there might be a use-case for needing a particular order
42 2013-08-21 00:29:56 hsmiths has joined
43 2013-08-21 00:30:18 <CodeShark> the ordering makes the check of keys linear rather than O(n^2)
44 2013-08-21 00:30:25 <gavinandresen> ⦠if you want it sorted, you can sort yourself...
45 2013-08-21 00:30:46 <jgarzik> indeed
46 2013-08-21 00:30:59 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: ? the low level signature checking is O(N), because signatures must match order of the keys
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48 2013-08-21 00:31:21 <CodeShark> isn't that what I just said?
49 2013-08-21 00:31:30 * jgarzik must add multisig and P2SH support to node-libcoin (i.e. a modern version of bitcoinjs-server)
50 2013-08-21 00:31:34 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: sorry, thought you were saying opposite
51 2013-08-21 00:31:50 <jgarzik> in order to support such in txtool (a tool that helps you pass around multi-party transactions for signing)
52 2013-08-21 00:32:35 <jgarzik> bitcoinjs-server (the node.js version of bitcoinjs-lib. confused yet?) was quite creaky and ancient. Nothing put pubkeyhash transactions, basically.
53 2013-08-21 00:32:37 <CodeShark> adding a cannonical sorting to all pubkeys might have been a good idea if for no other reason than ruling out permutations
54 2013-08-21 00:33:10 <CodeShark> that's to say, rejecting any transaction where the order isn't correct
55 2013-08-21 00:34:11 <CodeShark> a 4 pubkey multisig can have up to 24 different p2sh addresses
56 2013-08-21 00:34:45 <jgarzik> I am thinking that sorting is needed in my tools, at least, to reduce human error.
57 2013-08-21 00:35:34 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: meh. With one key you get ⦠three? ⦠addresses (regular, P2SH, and 1-of-1 multisig P2SH)
58 2013-08-21 00:35:57 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: don't forget pay-to-pubkey :)
59 2013-08-21 00:36:11 <gavinandresen> mmm. Can't express that as an address, though
60 2013-08-21 00:36:50 <gavinandresen> oh-- yeah, 4 (p2sh pay to pubkey and p2sh pay-to-hash)
61 2013-08-21 00:37:12 <sipa> pay to compressed pubkey and to uncompressed pubkey!
62 2013-08-21 00:37:15 <CodeShark> the script is ugly - but that's for another day :p
63 2013-08-21 00:37:17 <gavinandresen> sigh
64 2013-08-21 00:37:34 <sipa> oh and hybrid pubkey while we're at it
65 2013-08-21 00:37:39 <gavinandresen> shudder
66 2013-08-21 00:37:51 <jgarzik> My main issue is that txtool will be used "around the office" by people to approve multisig transactions, and occasionally figure out where to send multisig payments (generating a p2sh address). Need to make it hard for bitcoin-ignorant CPA to screw up, IOW. :)
67 2013-08-21 00:37:58 <gavinandresen> haven't we banned hybrid pubkeys yet?
68 2013-08-21 00:38:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: they're not relayed
69 2013-08-21 00:38:29 <sipa> same as non-DER signatures
70 2013-08-21 00:38:35 <CodeShark> jgarzik: I've actually been working on a protocol for sharing partially constructed and partially signed transactions and negotiating signatures
71 2013-08-21 00:38:53 <CodeShark> sounds very similar to what you're doing :)
72 2013-08-21 00:40:18 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell petertodd : let me know when you figure out if the bloom patch is broken or not.
73 2013-08-21 00:40:28 <petertodd> gavinandresen: broken, but we've since fixed it
74 2013-08-21 00:40:34 greyyy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
75 2013-08-21 00:40:46 <gmaxwell> Sorry about the rc1 misfire, it was my mistake.
76 2013-08-21 00:41:23 <gavinandresen> no worries, we all screw up
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78 2013-08-21 00:41:37 <jgarzik> CodeShark, heh, outside of BIP 10, we've just been thinking in terms of human networking ("hey, sign this bitcoin transaction <pgp signature>")
79 2013-08-21 00:41:47 <gavinandresen> ⦠trick is to not all screw up at the same time....
80 2013-08-21 00:42:02 <jgarzik> the trick is to not break mainnet
81 2013-08-21 00:42:27 <sipa> while driving 88 mph
82 2013-08-21 00:42:32 <gavinandresen> on two wheels
83 2013-08-21 00:42:47 * jgarzik -> baby bedtime
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85 2013-08-21 00:42:53 <petertodd> sipa: mind slowing down a fraction? oil's leaking out of the engine I'm working on again
86 2013-08-21 00:43:13 <petertodd> gavinandresen: oh, and shift to the other two wheels in a minute so I can change them
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89 2013-08-21 00:44:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: this match what you're testing? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2919
90 2013-08-21 00:44:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: did you try compiling that?
91 2013-08-21 00:45:18 <gmaxwell> why would I do that? :P
92 2013-08-21 00:45:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, I guess technically it would break gitian...
93 2013-08-21 00:45:38 <gmaxwell> I'd break my run of awesome screwups.
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95 2013-08-21 00:46:29 <petertodd> Hang on, one more issue...
96 2013-08-21 00:46:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I have no clue what you're talking about.
97 2013-08-21 00:46:51 * gmaxwell whistles.
98 2013-08-21 00:47:08 <petertodd> oh, wait, no my screw up
99 2013-08-21 00:47:16 <sipa> now it's my turn
100 2013-08-21 00:47:28 * gmaxwell guesses he should try compiling it sooner or later.
101 2013-08-21 00:48:36 <sipa> ever read http://r6.ca/blog/20120708T122219Z.html?
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104 2013-08-21 00:51:13 <gmaxwell> I've certantly written code which I just pattern matched and didn't really understand. It's surprisingly easy to do that when you use induction to write a recursive function for something.
105 2013-08-21 00:51:38 <gmaxwell> "here are the trivial edge cases it can be in" "oh. program runs"
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108 2013-08-21 00:52:21 <gmaxwell> thats even more powerful in haskell, I guess.
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118 2013-08-21 01:06:22 <petertodd> ok, my android wallet finished syncing, and everything looks ok
119 2013-08-21 01:07:38 <gmaxwell> I'm syncing a multibit wallet here, though with bitcoin in valgrind it only goes at about 20 blocks/sec.
120 2013-08-21 01:07:48 <petertodd> lol
121 2013-08-21 01:09:57 <gavinandresen> how do you tell multibit to sync from your local bitcoind?
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130 2013-08-21 01:22:54 <gmaxwell> add peers=127.0.0.1
131 2013-08-21 01:22:59 <gmaxwell> to multibit.properties
132 2013-08-21 01:23:07 <gmaxwell> (thats like a connect=)
133 2013-08-21 01:24:09 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: cool. (now I just have to figure out where multibit.properties lives on OSX...)
134 2013-08-21 01:25:18 <sipa> all you need is a cisco router and port forward for 8333 :p
135 2013-08-21 01:25:35 <gmaxwell> hahaha
136 2013-08-21 01:25:56 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: did you see that the other day? someone's upnp router routed all his outbound :8333 back to his node. :)
137 2013-08-21 01:26:14 <sipa> so he'd see his connection count go suddenly to 2, and back to 0
138 2013-08-21 01:26:45 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: try ~/Library/Application Support/MultiBit
139 2013-08-21 01:26:56 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: wtf?
140 2013-08-21 01:27:01 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: mmm, just found https://github.com/jim618/multibit/issues/37
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143 2013-08-21 01:48:13 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'm importing a key with a small bitcoin balance into my multibit wallet, sync looks OK (my bitcoind is sending merkleblocks)...
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168 2013-08-21 02:30:00 <warren> crap. Multibit doesn't have coin control...
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171 2013-08-21 02:34:49 <gavinandresen> warren: it has multiple wallet support, which is better than coin control imho
172 2013-08-21 02:35:17 <gavinandresen> warren: I deleted the 0.8.4rc1 tag, will tag rc2 soon
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177 2013-08-21 02:40:43 <warren> gavinandresen: setting up live demos for the talk in 1.5 hours
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179 2013-08-21 02:40:57 <warren> I guess I'll use multibit because it's fast.
180 2013-08-21 02:41:13 <CodeShark> what are you demoing, warren?
181 2013-08-21 02:41:38 bk128 has joined
182 2013-08-21 02:41:40 <warren> CodeShark: explaining bitcoin, payment processors, risks and benefits, technology, regulatory environment to a bunch of local business and law people
183 2013-08-21 02:41:57 <CodeShark> ah, good luck :)
184 2013-08-21 02:42:08 <warren> someone willing to donate me like 0.1 BTC? I'll use it from a new wallet to donate to wikipedia during the demo.
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186 2013-08-21 02:44:17 <sipa> warren: sure
187 2013-08-21 02:44:25 <warren> sipa: 19YZ9wzsdjUwwF9aEM9cRh661G4VhVvGnc
188 2013-08-21 02:44:30 <warren> sipa: thanks!
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192 2013-08-21 02:45:56 <warren> I tried to sync the full blockchain using 0.8.x but my laptop overheats and kills itself each time =)
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194 2013-08-21 02:48:49 <warren> hmm, does multibit not see tx's until it hits a block?
195 2013-08-21 02:49:23 <warren> I see it on blockchain.info but not multibit.
196 2013-08-21 02:51:46 <warren> this is worrisome, multibit still doesn't see it.
197 2013-08-21 02:52:51 <warren> does multibit only see it after 6 confirmations?
198 2013-08-21 02:54:13 <CodeShark> that would not make sense
199 2013-08-21 02:54:29 <warren> yeah, first time i'm using this client, and it isn't seeing the tx that sipa just sent
200 2013-08-21 02:54:40 <warren> I rather not demo using blockchain.info (would encourage its use)
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202 2013-08-21 02:54:54 <CodeShark> why not just use Bitcoin-Qt?
203 2013-08-21 02:55:07 <warren> I have trouble syncing the blockchain without laptop overheating =)
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205 2013-08-21 02:55:19 <lianj> warren: youre on osx? don't show this ugly multibit ui i see on the screenshots
206 2013-08-21 02:55:29 <warren> lianj: linux
207 2013-08-21 02:55:51 <CodeShark> warren: sync it on another machine and then just copy over the datadir
208 2013-08-21 02:56:00 <warren> there's no time before the demo ...
209 2013-08-21 02:56:28 <warren> ok, I had to resync the chain with multibit and now it see's sipa's tx
210 2013-08-21 02:56:37 <warren> hopefully it works when I demo using a payment processor
211 2013-08-21 02:57:12 bitnumus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
212 2013-08-21 02:57:38 <warren> heading out
213 2013-08-21 02:57:50 <CodeShark> have fun :)
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228 2013-08-21 03:16:40 <gavinandresen> * [new tag] v0.8.4rc2 -> v0.8.4rc2 ⦠I'm firing up my gitian builds
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243 2013-08-21 03:41:08 <CobaltBlueD> ugh WHy would AMU Mh/s not directly correlate to U/m over an extended period of time?
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254 2013-08-21 04:07:16 <warren> well, I hope multibit works
255 2013-08-21 04:07:18 <warren> presenting soon
256 2013-08-21 04:08:43 <Cusipzzz> whatever you do, don't youtube 'presentation disasters' :)
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267 2013-08-21 04:24:38 <warren> Hey, someone know where is that explaination of how the repeated random number allows you to find k?
268 2013-08-21 04:24:40 <warren> need URL
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273 2013-08-21 04:27:11 <Cusipzzz> http://www.nilsschneider.net/2013/01/28/recovering-bitcoin-private-keys.html ?
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275 2013-08-21 04:29:00 <BlueMatt> Cusipzzz: "This transaction was generated by a hardware bitcoin wallet"
276 2013-08-21 04:29:37 <Cusipzzz> oh, looking for the android one?
277 2013-08-21 04:29:56 <BlueMatt> I was just saying that link wasnt about anything people are using in production
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279 2013-08-21 04:31:49 <Cusipzzz> that was the one that woke me up to the potential issue if your randomness sucks
280 2013-08-21 04:32:23 <BlueMatt> my randomness?
281 2013-08-21 04:32:33 <Cusipzzz> anyone's*
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283 2013-08-21 04:32:55 <BlueMatt> well, ok, yes
284 2013-08-21 04:33:03 <BlueMatt> and android's...
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305 2013-08-21 05:20:10 <phantomcircuit> lol
306 2013-08-21 05:20:30 <phantomcircuit> initial block download on windows 8 is slower than on debian in a vm on windows 8
307 2013-08-21 05:20:33 <phantomcircuit> how is that even possible
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309 2013-08-21 05:22:00 <weex> sounds like a rhetorical question
310 2013-08-21 05:24:21 <phantomcircuit> weex, im actually seriously interested in how that's possible
311 2013-08-21 05:24:26 <phantomcircuit> but i suspect i wont ever know
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318 2013-08-21 05:46:08 <CodeShark> thread contention issues/priorities?
319 2013-08-21 05:46:51 <CodeShark> less efficient context switching?
320 2013-08-21 05:47:39 <CodeShark> less efficient implementations of core libraries?
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366 2013-08-21 07:04:07 <dugo> debian downloaded from the bitcoind on host maybe?
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381 2013-08-21 07:28:37 <gavinandresen> Review of 0.8.4 release notes welcome: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.4/test/
382 2013-08-21 07:29:34 <gavinandresen> SHASUMS and announcement will happen after other gitian builders wake up and we make sure the builds match.
383 2013-08-21 07:31:34 <petertodd> looks good to me
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449 2013-08-21 08:52:19 <xeroc> since when does bitcoin use gitian?
450 2013-08-21 08:53:29 <moarrr> hasnt it always?
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452 2013-08-21 08:54:05 <phantomcircuit> xeroc, for a long time now a number of people have done gitian builds
453 2013-08-21 08:54:21 <phantomcircuit> it's important to be able to trust the binaries
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455 2013-08-21 08:54:29 <phantomcircuit> since most people dont build from source
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487 2013-08-21 09:26:15 <xeroc> i see .. good to see :-)
488 2013-08-21 09:26:22 <xeroc> yhea .. shure
489 2013-08-21 09:26:34 <warren> btw, used multibit during the live demo. GAH. I hate it.
490 2013-08-21 09:26:51 <warren> It works, just it makes me nervous.
491 2013-08-21 09:26:59 <xeroc> i remember a chat with some guy who claimed that btc does not use gitian .. some while ago .. maybe he was misinformed :-)
492 2013-08-21 09:27:13 <xeroc> ^.^
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525 2013-08-21 10:07:58 <sipa> ;;genrate 71
526 2013-08-21 10:08:00 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 71.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 0.000702738130377 BTC per day and 2.92807554324e-05 BTC per hour.
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585 2013-08-21 11:56:32 <Luke-Jr> xeroc: gitian was basically created for bitcoin
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588 2013-08-21 11:57:45 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: It was? o_O
589 2013-08-21 11:58:08 <michagogo> Or do you mean "for the kind of usage that bitcoin needs"?
590 2013-08-21 11:58:08 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: at least, until very recently nobody else had any interest in using it O.o
591 2013-08-21 11:58:32 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: I don't know if devrandom had some behind-closed-doors other use for it.
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593 2013-08-21 12:03:22 <gjs278> think it actually was created for bitcoin, nobody else I know uses it
594 2013-08-21 12:03:31 <gjs278> when I google gitian all I get back is bitcoin results
595 2013-08-21 12:04:03 <gjs278> when I first saw it mentioned here I thought it was something other projects were using but nope, just this
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597 2013-08-21 12:13:52 <c0rw1n> what's gitian?
598 2013-08-21 12:14:03 <c0rw1n> ive seen that word here before
599 2013-08-21 12:14:14 <c0rw1n> ;;google gitian
600 2013-08-21 12:14:14 <gribble> Gitian: a secure software distribution method: <http://gitian.org/>; devrandom/gitian-builder · GitHub: <https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder>; bitcoin/gitian.sigs · GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs>
601 2013-08-21 12:14:17 <Luke-Jr> c0rw1n: build framework that produces bit-for-bit identical binaries
602 2013-08-21 12:14:34 <c0rw1n> oh fuck yes
603 2013-08-21 12:14:45 <Luke-Jr> c0rw1n: thus, everyone can prove the downloads on bitcoin.org are accurate to the code, and not with some trojan added
604 2013-08-21 12:14:53 <c0rw1n> again : oh fuck yes
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606 2013-08-21 12:16:35 <c0rw1n> it waitwhat oh my fsm
607 2013-08-21 12:17:08 <c0rw1n> hm
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609 2013-08-21 12:18:00 <c0rw1n> does it check if the binary is correct? if yes, against what?
610 2013-08-21 12:18:14 <c0rw1n> i mean, where does the check come from?
611 2013-08-21 12:18:19 <Luke-Jr> against PGP signatures of everyone else who built it
612 2013-08-21 12:18:38 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
613 2013-08-21 12:18:59 <c0rw1n> wait
614 2013-08-21 12:19:14 <c0rw1n> just that i finish nerdgasming
615 2013-08-21 12:20:15 <kinlo> :p
616 2013-08-21 12:20:22 <c0rw1n> okay i'm calmed down
617 2013-08-21 12:20:24 <c0rw1n> somewhat
618 2013-08-21 12:21:24 <c0rw1n> i don't wanna get capslocked ascii all over the channel
619 2013-08-21 12:21:41 <c0rw1n> finally someone does it right
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622 2013-08-21 12:26:34 <c0rw1n> (well the publishing server is still raidable, and hosted -or at least DNSed- in the US, but then : one piece at a time. SOMEone WILL do the distributed browserver thing some day, and gitian exemplifies a method of distributed signage of binaries, which would be needed in that too, in some form, for trust-free operation of distributed web-apps.)
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624 2013-08-21 12:39:50 <marcusw> I don't think it's possible for a trust-free webapp...
625 2013-08-21 12:40:00 <marcusw> unless you hosted it locally yourself
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628 2013-08-21 12:41:39 <c0rw1n> i mean a trust-free web-app that serves itself from the browser, and the swarm somehow signs it. With a sybim-resistant DHT maintained by invisible pink unicorns and all.
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631 2013-08-21 12:43:15 <marcusw> >sybim-resistant DHT
632 2013-08-21 12:43:23 <marcusw> >invisible pink unicorns
633 2013-08-21 12:43:43 <marcusw> those are of equal feasibility
634 2013-08-21 12:44:07 <c0rw1n> yup
635 2013-08-21 12:44:16 <c0rw1n> there are parts of ideas
636 2013-08-21 12:44:26 <c0rw1n> someone smarter than me will figure it out
637 2013-08-21 12:45:50 joesmoe has quit (Excess Flood)
638 2013-08-21 12:45:53 <c0rw1n> could get a double-recursive homomorphic thing. would be horrifically slow, but might get towards there
639 2013-08-21 12:46:17 shesek has joined
640 2013-08-21 12:46:24 joesmoe has joined
641 2013-08-21 12:46:38 <marcusw> I don't know any of these words
642 2013-08-21 12:48:12 ThomasV has joined
643 2013-08-21 12:48:47 <c0rw1n> http://crypto.stanford.edu/craig/craig-thesis.pdf
644 2013-08-21 12:49:21 <michagogo> ;;google gitian -bitcoin -litecoin
645 2013-08-21 12:49:21 <gribble> devrandom/gitian-builder · GitHub: <https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder>; Gitian: a source-control oriented distribution: <http://gitian.org/howto.html>; gitian | The Tor Blog: <https://blog.torproject.org/category/tags/gitian>
646 2013-08-21 12:49:38 <michagogo> ;;google gitian -bitcoin -litecoin -site:gitian.org -inurl:devrandom
647 2013-08-21 12:49:39 <gribble> gitian | The Tor Blog: <https://blog.torproject.org/category/tags/gitian>; android-secim in Gitian - Gitorious: <http://gitorious.org/gitian/android-secim>; GITian's Secret Confessions Expressions Crushes | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/klsgitconfess>
648 2013-08-21 12:49:56 <c0rw1n> yes i've gone and read what gitian is
649 2013-08-21 12:50:15 <c0rw1n> had no idea it was used by all these alreaday
650 2013-08-21 12:50:19 forgot has joined
651 2013-08-21 12:50:42 <michagogo> That was a response to gjs278's "think it actually...nope, just this"
652 2013-08-21 12:50:51 yubrew has joined
653 2013-08-21 12:50:55 <c0rw1n> ah ok
654 2013-08-21 12:51:00 <michagogo> Hah, that tor blod article was posted yesterday
655 2013-08-21 12:51:03 <michagogo> blog*
656 2013-08-21 12:51:22 <c0rw1n> didn't see it gjs's line
657 2013-08-21 12:51:34 <c0rw1n> (still don't, mebbe it was /msg)
658 2013-08-21 12:51:46 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
659 2013-08-21 12:52:58 <michagogo> [15:02:37] * Joins: c0rw1n
660 2013-08-21 12:52:58 <michagogo> [15:03:04] <gjs[no ping]278> think it actually was...
661 2013-08-21 12:53:08 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
662 2013-08-21 12:53:22 <michagogo> c0rw1n: It was the first thing you saw after joining
663 2013-08-21 12:53:27 <michagogo> (it's 3 lines)
664 2013-08-21 12:53:33 <c0rw1n> ah that one sry yes
665 2013-08-21 12:53:39 <michagogo> c0rw1n: Also, I know you say it because you reacted to it :-P
666 2013-08-21 12:53:43 <michagogo> s/say/saw/
667 2013-08-21 12:54:00 darsie has joined
668 2013-08-21 12:54:10 <darsie> hi
669 2013-08-21 12:54:39 <c0rw1n> i really need to stop doing caffeine in that kind of amounts ... if it's screwing with my memory and reading, it's clearly counter-roductive
670 2013-08-21 12:54:44 <c0rw1n> gah typos
671 2013-08-21 12:54:52 <darsie> Can you please implement an ETA/time to sync display
672 2013-08-21 12:55:07 <c0rw1n> darsie it can't really be done
673 2013-08-21 12:55:14 CheckDavid has joined
674 2013-08-21 12:55:14 <c0rw1n> thee's one, sort of, already
675 2013-08-21 12:55:31 <michagogo> darsie: The client can't know how big the blocks are, nor how fast the peer will send them
676 2013-08-21 12:56:17 <darsie> You can average over the last few blocks and estimate with that. Sure it will vary.
677 2013-08-21 12:56:25 <c0rw1n> technically, you could manage your own mining pool, and ensure you send your tx to that
678 2013-08-21 12:56:44 <c0rw1n> might be just a little expensive
679 2013-08-21 12:56:58 <michagogo> darsie: You can't really, though
680 2013-08-21 12:57:09 <michagogo> Since you might get several small blocks and then several big blocks
681 2013-08-21 12:57:23 <michagogo> Especially when doing IBD
682 2013-08-21 12:57:24 <darsie> I did it manually, just yesterday.
683 2013-08-21 12:57:37 <darsie> or average over the last few minutes.
684 2013-08-21 12:58:32 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
685 2013-08-21 12:59:08 <darsie> I did:
686 2013-08-21 12:59:11 <darsie> echo >>x `date +%s` 252531
687 2013-08-21 12:59:19 <darsie> cat x
688 2013-08-21 12:59:27 <c0rw1n> i think you'd want to average over the period of difficulty adjustment, so it follows the network : faster when a lot of hash is deployed, slower if large hashpower disappear
689 2013-08-21 12:59:28 <darsie> echo 'scale=3;(1481-0829)/(2531-2394)*(3269-2531)/60'|bc
690 2013-08-21 13:00:44 <darsie> What is IBD?
691 2013-08-21 13:01:18 BTCOxygen is now known as Guest69978
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694 2013-08-21 13:01:18 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
695 2013-08-21 13:02:19 BlackPrapor has joined
696 2013-08-21 13:02:59 <michagogo> Initial Block Download
697 2013-08-21 13:03:07 melvster has joined
698 2013-08-21 13:03:23 <darsie> You mean the first part of the block chain loads much faster?
699 2013-08-21 13:03:48 <michagogo> (BTW, does anyone know if that term also applies to the catching up when you start a node, or if it's only referring to the very first download for a new node?)
700 2013-08-21 13:04:26 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
701 2013-08-21 13:05:56 <Luke-Jr> darsie: it does
702 2013-08-21 13:06:02 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
703 2013-08-21 13:06:43 <darsie> Yes, it does. That would give a very off ETA, indeed.
704 2013-08-21 13:08:44 <darsie> The ETA display could be an option to activate in the preferences, off by default and with a note about its inaccuracy, especially for IBD.
705 2013-08-21 13:09:43 <darsie> But every ETA is just an *estimate*. When you d/l a torrent, the speed varies, too. Still they all show an ETA. Initially the ETA shows days, then goes down to hours.
706 2013-08-21 13:10:15 <darsie> It gives you a ballpark figure, which is useful.
707 2013-08-21 13:13:57 <darsie> And btw, your display of downloaded block count informs the user about the progress. They then estimate the TA in their head. Show computed ETA, too. It's what you intended by your display, just more useful.
708 2013-08-21 13:14:28 <michagogo> "It's what you intended by your display" <-- Why do you say that?
709 2013-08-21 13:14:50 <darsie> It appears conclusive to me.
710 2013-08-21 13:15:04 <michagogo> For example, telling the user how far behind they are can be good for the user to know what they should expect to see in terms of older transactions
711 2013-08-21 13:15:10 <marcusw> users will be much less mad about an ETA they come up with being wrong than one bitcoin gave them being wrong
712 2013-08-21 13:16:04 <marcusw> that being said, network transfer time estimation (especially on p2p networks) is expected to be a crappy estimate at best
713 2013-08-21 13:16:04 sacrelege has joined
714 2013-08-21 13:16:09 oru has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
715 2013-08-21 13:16:22 <marcusw> think of it like a torrent client...that's what the users expect
716 2013-08-21 13:18:26 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
717 2013-08-21 13:20:07 yubrew has joined
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731 2013-08-21 13:29:52 <runeks> darsie: The problem with comparing it to a torrent download is that the first 1000 blocks will take like 10 seconds while the last 1000 blocks might take 1000 seconds. So your estimate would be off by a factor of 100. That's not useful in any way. Quite the opposite.
732 2013-08-21 13:30:06 arioBarzan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
733 2013-08-21 13:30:12 agnostic98 has joined
734 2013-08-21 13:30:36 <marcusw> runeks: so turn that into an equation and scale it appropriately
735 2013-08-21 13:30:37 bmcgee has joined
736 2013-08-21 13:31:15 <darsie> runeks: That can be improved by computing the ETA based on the last few blocks/minutes. And printing a note about the inaccuracy of the ETA in the preferences where the ETA option is off by default.
737 2013-08-21 13:31:46 <runeks> marcusw: You mean benchmark an IBD and bake the constants into bitcoin-qt?
738 2013-08-21 13:32:17 <pigeons> cool darsie, make a pull request when you're done coding it
739 2013-08-21 13:32:20 bmcgee has quit (Client Quit)
740 2013-08-21 13:32:28 <marcusw> runeks: why not?
741 2013-08-21 13:34:29 mattco has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
742 2013-08-21 13:34:45 <runeks> marcusw: I guess I think it seems clumsy and unnecessary. At least we should wait until it's possible to do an IBD from multiple nodes. When only using a single node it becomes completely impossible to calculate an ETA. Torrents are fairly constant in speed when the node count is over 100. But with Bitcoin, you basically only have a single connection.
743 2013-08-21 13:34:48 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
744 2013-08-21 13:34:48 arioBarzan has joined
745 2013-08-21 13:35:06 CatWomman has joined
746 2013-08-21 13:35:26 <michagogo> Hopefully sipa's headers-first will be ready soon
747 2013-08-21 13:36:05 gfawkes has joined
748 2013-08-21 13:36:56 <runeks> michagogo: Does it get all headers from a single node and then tries to sync full blocks from multiple nodes?
749 2013-08-21 13:37:06 <michagogo> runeks: Ask sipa
750 2013-08-21 13:37:12 <michagogo> (or look at his github fork)
751 2013-08-21 13:38:03 <arioBarzan> I am running bitcoind 0.2.0 on two locally connected nodes, but couldn't mine. In version 0.3.15 Satoshi made sure that generation doesn't start before block 74000 downloaded. Is there also any similar limitation on 0.2.0 ?
752 2013-08-21 13:38:09 <runeks> Looks like that's the plan: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/81899f54fd26505a60cb84f51b4ff40c045f4be6
753 2013-08-21 13:38:16 <michagogo> 0.2.0? o_O
754 2013-08-21 13:38:18 <michagogo> Why?
755 2013-08-21 13:38:21 <c0rw1n> what the fuck are you doing with those versions?
756 2013-08-21 13:38:32 normanrichards has joined
757 2013-08-21 13:38:34 <c0rw1n> forking from old code?
758 2013-08-21 13:38:48 <arioBarzan> I need just some fake coins for doing some tests, just for learning.
759 2013-08-21 13:38:58 <michagogo> arioBarzan: What's wrong with testnet?
760 2013-08-21 13:39:05 <c0rw1n> just get testnet-in-a-box
761 2013-08-21 13:39:10 <michagogo> Just start bitcoind or bitcoin-qt with -testnet
762 2013-08-21 13:39:15 <c0rw1n> easier and will probably work
763 2013-08-21 13:39:15 <michagogo> Or what c0rw1n said
764 2013-08-21 13:39:52 <c0rw1n> ;;google bitcoin "testnet in a box"
765 2013-08-21 13:39:53 <gribble> freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box · GitHub: <https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box>; Testnet - Bitcoin: <https://bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet>; Bitcoin - Browse /Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box at SourceForge.net: <http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/>
766 2013-08-21 13:39:57 swulf-- has joined
767 2013-08-21 13:40:09 <arioBarzan> could I compile new versions (e.g.) and strip them of their mining limitation rules ?
768 2013-08-21 13:40:51 <darsie> arioBarzan: I can give you some testnet coins. Which address?
769 2013-08-21 13:40:52 normanrichards has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
770 2013-08-21 13:40:54 <arioBarzan> I wonder how Satoshi could mine with 0.2.0 but I couldn't.
771 2013-08-21 13:41:44 <Zoop_> he mined more than most of us together
772 2013-08-21 13:41:51 <marcusw> plot twist: he was actually premining on unshipped BFL asics
773 2013-08-21 13:41:55 <runeks> arioBarzan: If you just want to test something then use testnet.
774 2013-08-21 13:41:56 <arioBarzan> I Have used testnet coins. They are good for learning. But I assume one should be able to fork his local blockchain
775 2013-08-21 13:42:13 <runeks> marcusw: At 100KH/s
776 2013-08-21 13:42:29 CatWomman has quit ()
777 2013-08-21 13:42:46 <marcusw> what a high roller
778 2013-08-21 13:43:08 <Zoop_> ahah
779 2013-08-21 13:43:52 <CobaltBlueD> I've been narrowing down the cause on an interesting symptom here. eruptors running @ 330Mh/s, cgminer reporting that. The reason I am seeing poor rates with this particular setup is long delays cause extended idle time betweeeeen the submissions.
780 2013-08-21 13:45:02 <CobaltBlueD> anyone have ideas on what would cause that? Hardware looks fine, voltage is good, same version of cgminer works fine with these chips on other machines.
781 2013-08-21 13:45:07 BTCOxygen has joined
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783 2013-08-21 13:45:07 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
784 2013-08-21 13:45:29 <runeks> Actually, scratch that. Looks like the average network speed for the first year was a whopping 4 MH/s. Not 100KH/s.
785 2013-08-21 13:45:29 <arioBarzan> could I disable IsInitialBlockDownload() in the code and compile bitcoind again to be able to mine some coins in a local network?
786 2013-08-21 13:45:58 <runeks> arioBarzan: What is it you want to do exactly?
787 2013-08-21 13:46:15 <c0rw1n> if he does that it's basically altcoin-in-a-box no?
788 2013-08-21 13:46:29 <arioBarzan> I want to mine a valid block at the height of for e.g. 200
789 2013-08-21 13:46:42 <arioBarzan> but on my pair of local nodes
790 2013-08-21 13:47:16 KLOdICK has joined
791 2013-08-21 13:47:34 <arioBarzan> I tried bitcoin 0.2.0 after one hour of mining bitcoin found NO new block.
792 2013-08-21 13:47:49 <c0rw1n> ooh you could feed it a known set of tx
793 2013-08-21 13:48:06 <c0rw1n> good luck with doing it, but might work
794 2013-08-21 13:48:18 <arioBarzan> unrotunately 0.2.0 did not have rpc
795 2013-08-21 13:48:28 <c0rw1n> it must get the tx from somewhere
796 2013-08-21 13:49:24 <c0rw1n> if you're willing to go that far, you can take apart the c++ code and call it from a kludged buttonpad GUI
797 2013-08-21 13:49:37 <arioBarzan> c0rw1n: could I disable IsInitialBlockDownload() in current version to be able to mine at the height of 200?
798 2013-08-21 13:49:43 <c0rw1n> no idea
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804 2013-08-21 13:50:19 <CobaltBlueD> so my question to any devs floating around, what has to run after a submission and before the new work is sent to the ASIC. it's using stratum of course.
805 2013-08-21 13:50:40 t1488t has joined
806 2013-08-21 13:51:36 <arioBarzan> Satoshi was mining in first 120 blocks, but he couldn't possibly spend them. so it wouldn't be necessary to have a tx to be able to mine at that height.
807 2013-08-21 13:52:29 <c0rw1n> why couldn't he spend them? he could have made addresses and sent the coinbases between those
808 2013-08-21 13:52:51 <arioBarzan> either 0.2.0 was a fake ( so only satoshi could mine possibly with another version) or I am doing something wrong that I couldn't mine by 0.2.0
809 2013-08-21 13:52:53 <c0rw1n> not that i've gone and traced the first block mind you
810 2013-08-21 13:52:59 KLOdICK has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
811 2013-08-21 13:53:17 KLOdICK has joined
812 2013-08-21 13:53:23 <arioBarzan> c0rw1n: he had to wait 120 blocks after generating new coin.
813 2013-08-21 13:53:35 <c0rw1n> ooh *click* i'm an idioty
814 2013-08-21 13:54:45 <c0rw1n> ah but then do you get the same blockchain every time? I mean the same hashes from the same "first 120, no-tx" blocks
815 2013-08-21 13:55:09 <c0rw1n> or is it time-sensitive? i really have no idea
816 2013-08-21 13:55:16 <c0rw1n> i mean date-sensitive
817 2013-08-21 13:56:45 <arioBarzan> it shouldn't be date-sensitive. The two-connected nodes have no more blocks after 175, and their mining difficulty is 1
818 2013-08-21 13:57:07 <CobaltBlueD> I have a bad feeling I'm going to be looking at code today
819 2013-08-21 13:58:06 bmcgee has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
820 2013-08-21 13:59:50 sacrelege has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
821 2013-08-21 14:00:22 <jgarzik> mornin'
822 2013-08-21 14:01:19 agnostic98 has joined
823 2013-08-21 14:01:30 <CobaltBlueD> morning. definitely time for coffee.
824 2013-08-21 14:02:12 <arioBarzan> I am running bitcoind 0.2.0 on two locally connected nodes, but couldn't mine. In version 0.3.15 Satoshi made sure that generation doesn't start before block 74000 downloaded (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Changelog#0.3.15.5B24.5D). Is there also any similar limitation on 0.2.0 ?
825 2013-08-21 14:06:22 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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827 2013-08-21 14:06:59 gdoteof has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
828 2013-08-21 14:08:38 <marcusw> man...add a bit about heaven and 2nd coming and satoshi = jesus
829 2013-08-21 14:09:13 <marcusw> japanese Jesus Chrypto
830 2013-08-21 14:09:17 <c0rw1n> Satoshi is the Cyberchrist
831 2013-08-21 14:09:22 <c0rw1n> or crypstomessiah
832 2013-08-21 14:09:31 CodeShark has joined
833 2013-08-21 14:09:33 <c0rw1n> (gah typos grr)
834 2013-08-21 14:10:07 <marcusw> >mfw satoshi was actually jesus
835 2013-08-21 14:14:09 CodeShark has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
836 2013-08-21 14:16:59 <michagogo> How long ago has there been a 0.8.4rc2?
837 2013-08-21 14:17:41 <c0rw1n> that's not listed right next to the release?
838 2013-08-21 14:18:34 <michagogo> c0rw1n: I just happened to notice "v0.8.4rc2" in github's tags list when looking for 0.2.0 to check for checkpoints
839 2013-08-21 14:18:45 <c0rw1n> ah ok
840 2013-08-21 14:18:52 <michagogo> Anyway, looks like it was tagged yesterday
841 2013-08-21 14:18:58 <michagogo> Ooh, with a new checkpoint
842 2013-08-21 14:19:04 hnz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
843 2013-08-21 14:19:09 <michagogo> ;;calc [blocks] - 250000
844 2013-08-21 14:19:10 <gribble> 3412
845 2013-08-21 14:19:15 <michagogo> 3412 blocks ago
846 2013-08-21 14:19:45 vrs has joined
847 2013-08-21 14:20:01 <vrs> has anybody in here successfully built bitcoin on freebsd with clang?
848 2013-08-21 14:20:14 <vrs> I'm getting gmake[1]: *** No rule to make target `clang'. Stop.
849 2013-08-21 14:20:27 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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851 2013-08-21 14:22:02 <Luke-Jr> CobaltBlueD: upgrade to BFGMiner
852 2013-08-21 14:22:36 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: 0.2.0 isn't compatible with the current Bitcoin protocol, note
853 2013-08-21 14:23:26 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: I am running my own set of nodes
854 2013-08-21 14:23:35 <Luke-Jr> vrs: BSD isn't really supported.
855 2013-08-21 14:23:39 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: but I can not generate blocks
856 2013-08-21 14:23:40 peter_ has joined
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859 2013-08-21 14:23:55 hnz has joined
860 2013-08-21 14:24:08 <vrs> Luke-Jr: ...aw
861 2013-08-21 14:24:30 <Luke-Jr> vrs: would you like to be the BSD team? :P
862 2013-08-21 14:24:37 <vrs> uh
863 2013-08-21 14:24:45 <vrs> let me gain a few levels in C and then perhaps
864 2013-08-21 14:24:49 <Luke-Jr> :p
865 2013-08-21 14:24:54 <vrs> err C/C++
866 2013-08-21 14:25:07 <Luke-Jr> vrs: the error suggests you ran 'make clang' or something
867 2013-08-21 14:25:11 <Luke-Jr> which is wrong in any case
868 2013-08-21 14:25:18 <vrs> yes, and that's confusing me
869 2013-08-21 14:25:33 <vrs> because it was a simple portmaster invocation and nowhere was making clang involved
870 2013-08-21 14:25:34 <Luke-Jr> try the documented build steps for Linux
871 2013-08-21 14:25:40 <vrs> might just be a problem of the port
872 2013-08-21 14:25:43 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
873 2013-08-21 14:26:49 teste has joined
874 2013-08-21 14:28:13 saivann has joined
875 2013-08-21 14:28:13 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: If I disable IsInitialBlockDownload() could I generate coins on locally-connected-nodes at height for e.g. 200 ?
876 2013-08-21 14:28:22 <michagogo> Is 0.8.4 mostly a bugfix release?
877 2013-08-21 14:28:44 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: perhaps
878 2013-08-21 14:28:52 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: note that 0.2.0 was likely long after block 200
879 2013-08-21 14:29:01 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: yeah, just trivial things
880 2013-08-21 14:29:20 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
881 2013-08-21 14:30:42 arioBarzan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
882 2013-08-21 14:30:58 <michagogo> Brb, going to find my external hard drive with Ubuntu on it so I can gitian-build
883 2013-08-21 14:31:25 <vrs> btw regarding the bootstrap.dat torrent, I seeded 371690.7MB of it
884 2013-08-21 14:31:47 <michagogo> I've seeded 34.6 GB
885 2013-08-21 14:31:52 <vrs> which is a ratio of roughly 46
886 2013-08-21 14:32:17 <michagogo> (is jgarzik going to update bootstrap for 250k?)
887 2013-08-21 14:32:21 agnostic98 has joined
888 2013-08-21 14:33:22 <michagogo> Also: How come gitian.sigs has sigs for 0.8.4rc1, but that tag doesn't seem to exist?
889 2013-08-21 14:33:53 <Luke-Jr> was it deleted? :o
890 2013-08-21 14:35:17 <petertodd> it was, rc1 has a show-stopper bug
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894 2013-08-21 14:37:19 <michagogo> What bug?
895 2013-08-21 14:37:49 <petertodd> just a thinko related to the bloom patch that made android wallets not sync up
896 2013-08-21 14:38:24 <petertodd> problem was multibit synced, and that's all greg had available to test with, where as myself all I had was an android wallet...
897 2013-08-21 14:38:44 <petertodd> next time I'll screw up and it'll be gmaxwell finding that I broke multibit :/
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944 2013-08-21 15:33:14 <michagogo> Gitian build done.
945 2013-08-21 15:33:17 <michagogo> PR'd.
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953 2013-08-21 15:39:19 <Ry4an> I hope that's a homestarrunner reference :)
954 2013-08-21 15:39:37 spitballshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
955 2013-08-21 15:41:40 <michagogo> Hmm?
956 2013-08-21 15:41:48 <Ry4an> I guess not. :)
957 2013-08-21 15:42:12 <Ry4an> http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/Arrow'd_Guy
958 2013-08-21 15:42:33 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
959 2013-08-21 15:42:36 * michagogo has never heard of Homestar Runner
960 2013-08-21 15:43:07 <Luke-Jr> it's .com
961 2013-08-21 15:43:22 <michagogo> (wouldn't http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/%27d be better?)
962 2013-08-21 15:43:50 <Ry4an> ah, it was an early 2000s online funny thing. There was a recurring character that VERB'd people to death for various types of verb. Was popular amongst geeks at the time, so I thought you were invoking it. Not a big deal.
963 2013-08-21 15:44:00 <michagogo> Yeah, nope :-P
964 2013-08-21 15:44:25 <michagogo> Anyone have any idea on release estimate for 0.8.4? (assuming no show-stoppers)
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984 2013-08-21 16:20:59 <runeks> For anyone interested: I've updated my text-only version of historic Bitcoin difficulties to include an estimate of the next difficulty adjustment (estimations are marked with an asterisk): http://runeks.dk/bitcoin/diff.txt
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986 2013-08-21 16:24:01 <darsie> Does the bitcoin address include the public key?
987 2013-08-21 16:24:11 Application has joined
988 2013-08-21 16:24:25 <edcba> hash of it
989 2013-08-21 16:24:29 <edcba> iirc :)
990 2013-08-21 16:24:44 eoss has joined
991 2013-08-21 16:25:16 <vrs> darsie: it does not and I think it's a ripemd-160 hash
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993 2013-08-21 16:26:20 <vrs> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Addresses
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1003 2013-08-21 16:35:54 <handle> darsie: no
1004 2013-08-21 16:36:01 <handle> it is a hash of the public key
1005 2013-08-21 16:36:06 <darsie> thx
1006 2013-08-21 16:36:25 <handle> so if you have the address, you can verify the correct public key, however you cannot get the actual public key from it
1007 2013-08-21 16:36:43 <gmaxwell> kinda sad that darsie is getting worse advice in here than they got in #bitcoin ...
1008 2013-08-21 16:37:16 <darsie> well, I didn't pursue the purpose here, since I already got it.
1009 2013-08-21 16:38:51 <handle> gmaxwell: is my advice bad?
1010 2013-08-21 16:39:01 <gmaxwell> Yea, kinda.
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1012 2013-08-21 16:39:26 <handle> 00:25 < darsie> Does the bitcoin address include the public key?
1013 2013-08-21 16:39:35 <arioBarzan> handle: no
1014 2013-08-21 16:39:37 <handle> I think my answer accurately answers that question - it doesn't include the public key
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1016 2013-08-21 16:39:47 <gmaxwell> It's not pedantically correct, depending on whats meant by public key, and it didn't solve darsie's actual problem (actually it would have given the opposite from correct behavior.
1017 2013-08-21 16:39:53 <gmaxwell> 09:25 < gmaxwell> darsie: You should probably ask more of your actual question.
1018 2013-08-21 16:39:56 <gmaxwell> 09:26 < gmaxwell> darsie: Because I can't actually give you a good answer with what you gave.
1019 2013-08-21 16:39:59 <gmaxwell> 09:27 < gmaxwell> (A typical 1 style address is a hash160 of a ecdsa public key. But the hash160 itself is effectively a public key for signing validation)
1020 2013-08-21 16:40:02 <gmaxwell> 09:27 < darsie> Well, I want to make a backup of my wallet on paper, but the wallet is too big. So I wondered if printing address + private key suffices.
1021 2013-08-21 16:40:05 <gmaxwell> 09:27 < gmaxwell> darsie: saving the private keys suffice, all the rest can be derrived from that.
1022 2013-08-21 16:40:21 <handle> ah
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1027 2013-08-21 16:43:16 <arioBarzan> I'm running bitcoin 0.2.0 on two locally connected nodes, siolated from internet. I couldn't generate any new block. Satoshi blocked generating blocks before 74000 in version 0.3.15 (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Changelog#0.3.15.5B24.5D) is there any similar checkpoint on 0.2.0 ?
1028 2013-08-21 16:43:27 <gmaxwell> handle: The address itself _is_ a public key. It's not an ecc public key, but it's public data which you can use to verify knoweldge of private data. One completely valid way (and the way the blockchain works for 1 type addresses) is that the address is the public key (thing you identify payees with), and the ecdsa-public key is just part of the signature (data the payee provides to prove their identity)
1029 2013-08-21 16:45:09 <edcba> darsie about backup remember each time a transaction is issued new key is issued
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1032 2013-08-21 16:45:47 <darsie> edcba: I doubt that.
1033 2013-08-21 16:45:52 <edcba> i mean backuping bitcoin keys suck
1034 2013-08-21 16:46:22 <handle> actualy, there's a pool of 100 keys when you first start up bitcoin, IIRC
1035 2013-08-21 16:46:27 <runeks> Armory works really well for backing up a wallet on paper IMO.
1036 2013-08-21 16:46:31 <handle> and when you exhaust those 100 keys, it generates nore
1037 2013-08-21 16:46:33 <handle> more*
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1039 2013-08-21 16:47:08 <arioBarzan> From where could I download bitcoin 0.1.0 ?
1040 2013-08-21 16:47:24 <edcba> (internet)
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1042 2013-08-21 16:51:15 <edcba> didn't find the forum link about the guy having lost all his bitcoins still having a backup of his "old style" wallet :)
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1048 2013-08-21 16:54:31 <runeks> arioBarzan: http://www.zorinaq.com/pub/bitcoin-0.1.0.tgz
1049 2013-08-21 16:54:47 <arioBarzan> runeks: tnx
1050 2013-08-21 16:55:07 <edcba> why that version btw ?
1051 2013-08-21 16:55:30 <runeks> arioBarzan: Bear in mind that it won't communicate with other nodes on the network. And it's Windows-only.
1052 2013-08-21 16:55:45 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1053 2013-08-21 16:55:53 <runeks> I mean, it will communicate with instances of itself, but not with the general Bitcoin network.
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1059 2013-08-21 16:56:29 <runeks> Because: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2788/what-are-the-february-20-changes-to-the-bitcoin-protocol
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1062 2013-08-21 16:56:37 <arioBarzan> runeks: Hopefully it would generate a block at difficulty 1 which is the main thing I am looking for
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1064 2013-08-21 16:57:03 <arioBarzan> I will run it on isolated nodes
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1067 2013-08-21 16:58:18 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: I'm not aware of any explicit inhibition, though the oldest mining code is really slow.
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1069 2013-08-21 17:00:07 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: is there any not-so-difficult way that I could disable checkpoints for generating blocks at height for e.g. 200 at the current bitcoin version and then compile it again?
1070 2013-08-21 17:01:26 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: what exactly are you trying to do?
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1072 2013-08-21 17:02:20 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: I want to generate a new block on two isolated nodes, locally-connected to each other
1073 2013-08-21 17:02:52 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: I tried 0.2.0 and after several hours I was unsuccessful
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1075 2013-08-21 17:03:16 <arioBarzan> although the difficulty was just 1
1076 2013-08-21 17:04:28 <edcba> arioBarzan: i think you can use any client and 2 instances of them in an isolated network
1077 2013-08-21 17:04:43 <edcba> or hmm maybe not because of some hardcoded checks...
1078 2013-08-21 17:05:22 <arioBarzan> edcba: exactly, not possible because of checkpoints https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Changelog#0.3.15.5B24.5D
1079 2013-08-21 17:05:38 <edcba> thanks gavinandresen...
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1082 2013-08-21 17:06:05 <edcba> just adds complexity for nothing imo
1083 2013-08-21 17:06:19 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: just use regular testnet and isolate the nodes.
1084 2013-08-21 17:06:37 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: you'll get a block after 20 minutes plus whatever it takes you to mine a diff 1 block.
1085 2013-08-21 17:09:43 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: everybody today just said the sam that I use testnet. I wonder how Satoshi mined those blocks.
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1088 2013-08-21 17:10:38 <edcba> using his cpu ?
1089 2013-08-21 17:11:21 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: huh? _lots_ of people were using bitcoin by 0.2.
1090 2013-08-21 17:12:39 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: did 0.2 have checkpoints to prevent one from generating blocks at low height?
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1092 2013-08-21 17:14:48 <gmaxwell> 09:57 < gmaxwell> arioBarzan: I'm not aware of any explicit inhibition, though the oldest mining code is really slow.
1093 2013-08-21 17:15:15 <gmaxwell> I'm also not about to go digging through the 0.2 code to find out, especially because what you're trying to do has nothing to do with 0.2.
1094 2013-08-21 17:15:24 <gmaxwell> If you mine on testnet, I know that that works.
1095 2013-08-21 17:16:17 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: thanks
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1118 2013-08-21 17:45:12 <jgarzik> michagogo, yes
1119 2013-08-21 17:48:25 * michagogo goes to find what he asked jgarzik
1120 2013-08-21 17:48:33 <michagogo> Ah, right.
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1123 2013-08-21 17:49:06 <gaantr2> Anyone here know anything about bitcoin-j?
1124 2013-08-21 17:51:25 <sipa> gaantr2: talk to TD or BlueMatt i guess
1125 2013-08-21 17:51:27 <sipa> or Goonie
1126 2013-08-21 17:51:57 <Goonie> heard my name
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1130 2013-08-21 17:59:12 <gaantr2> sipa: thanks
1131 2013-08-21 17:59:28 <gaantr2> Goonie: do you know how to recover 0.7 BTC from a bitcoin-j wallet?
1132 2013-08-21 17:59:51 <sipa> gaantr2: android wallet, multibit, or something else?
1133 2013-08-21 18:00:00 <Goonie> gaantr2: load it into wallet-tool, create a spend
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1137 2013-08-21 18:00:19 <Goonie> gaantr2: you can probably use multibit as well
1138 2013-08-21 18:00:25 <gaantr2> okay I will try multibit
1139 2013-08-21 18:00:59 <Goonie> gaantr2: how did you create the wallet?
1140 2013-08-21 18:01:46 <gaantr2> I created it with bitcoinj
1141 2013-08-21 18:02:23 <gaantr2> I had someone send 0.7 BTC to an address on the wallet, but for whatever reason it never seemed to confirm in the wallet
1142 2013-08-21 18:02:45 <gaantr2> the transaction is confirmed: https://blockchain.info/address/1Ee9KBg1VtC8yHds8F8YLcxJDktppHUvnt
1143 2013-08-21 18:03:31 <Goonie> gaantr2: then you have a good incentive to fix your app (-:
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1146 2013-08-21 18:08:21 <michagogo> How long does it usually take from a new release version being tagged until it goes live for end-user download?
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1158 2013-08-21 18:22:19 <gaantr2> Goonie: Yep. The issue is difficult to pin point. Seems like after it has been running for a while it "freezes" and no longer processes coin transactions sent to the program. It is based on the ping app
1159 2013-08-21 18:22:35 <gaantr2> I have not been able to fix this particular bug yet.
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1162 2013-08-21 18:25:03 <michagogo> Question: I found a utility that allows me to close (a) TCP connection(s). Wireshark tells me that this is done with a RST,ACK packet.
1163 2013-08-21 18:25:46 <michagogo> If IBD is stuck, will using getpeerinfo to locate the syncnode and closing that connection unstick it?
1164 2013-08-21 18:26:57 <marcusw> should just be RST, not RSTACK, but yeah
1165 2013-08-21 18:28:53 <gaantr2> yay! I got my coins back lol
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1167 2013-08-21 18:29:17 <gaantr2> Goonie++ (bitcoin-dev++)
1168 2013-08-21 18:29:53 <gaantr2> I guess I should also give a multibit++
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1170 2013-08-21 18:30:10 <michagogo> It would be cool if there were somewhere where hex dumps of blocks were easily accessible to be pasted into the console following "submitblock "
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1173 2013-08-21 18:31:57 <helo> michagogo: ./bitcoind getblock <block hash> false
1174 2013-08-21 18:32:53 <michagogo> helo: Is there an always-on bitcoind node with its RPC port open somewhere that I could pull that from? :P
1175 2013-08-21 18:33:09 <helo> prawlie not
1176 2013-08-21 18:33:13 <michagogo> (I was kidding)
1177 2013-08-21 18:34:41 owowo has joined
1178 2013-08-21 18:35:36 PrimeStunna has joined
1179 2013-08-21 18:36:09 <marcusw> why doesn't anyone run one of those?
1180 2013-08-21 18:36:26 <helo> they want people to run their own to halp the network
1181 2013-08-21 18:36:35 <michagogo> marcusw: Actually, I think it could be done now that there's a nowallet patch
1182 2013-08-21 18:37:05 <marcusw> empty wallet would be fine anyway
1183 2013-08-21 18:38:27 <michagogo> Really looking forward to sipa's headers-first, so that one peer won't stall IBD
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1204 2013-08-21 19:05:35 <arioBarzan> is there any way to circumvent mining checkpoints ? I want to mine a new block after genesis block in a network of locally connected nodes, isolated from internet.
1205 2013-08-21 19:06:03 <Krellan> Luke-Jr: I glanced at bfgminer and somehow it printed (.100%) in the "R" column, thus throwing it off of alignment. Looked through percentf2() and don't see how that would be possible, it's correct. Maybe weird floating-point rounding up?
1206 2013-08-21 19:07:29 <Krellan> Really nice column alignment btw, the page looks rather elegant in a large terminal window.
1207 2013-08-21 19:08:03 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: Checkpoints aren't whats stopping you in any case.
1208 2013-08-21 19:08:28 Coincide_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1209 2013-08-21 19:08:56 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: though as an aside, you can turn them off with the @#$@# commandline parameter which is right there for it. And I advised you above to use testnet.
1210 2013-08-21 19:09:41 robocoin_ has joined
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1212 2013-08-21 19:10:58 <runeks> helo: Does that command work for you? All I get is an error. I'm guessing you're running master and not a stable release?
1213 2013-08-21 19:11:41 <michagogo> runeks: I think you mean HEAD?
1214 2013-08-21 19:11:44 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1215 2013-08-21 19:12:15 <michagogo> runeks: And yeah, it doesn
1216 2013-08-21 19:12:23 <runeks> michagogo: Not sure. Doesn't the master branch contain the newest patches?
1217 2013-08-21 19:12:24 <michagogo> runeks: And yeah, it doesn't seem to be working for me on 0.8.4rc2
1218 2013-08-21 19:12:26 guruvan has joined
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1220 2013-08-21 19:12:42 <michagogo> runeks: In general, more or less (though only those that have been merged)
1221 2013-08-21 19:13:02 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1222 2013-08-21 19:13:17 <helo> yeah, i'm on 8fa9b5cc45c1826b...
1223 2013-08-21 19:13:44 HaltingState2 has joined
1224 2013-08-21 19:14:02 <michagogo> But the current state of the master branch (actually, I think it's whatever you happen to have checked out at the moment, but it usually is used in this context to refer to the master branch's most recent commit) is known as HEAD
1225 2013-08-21 19:14:14 catcowllama is now known as catcow
1226 2013-08-21 19:14:36 <runeks> I see. So 'master' is a branch and HEAD is a certain point (commit) in that branch?
1227 2013-08-21 19:16:33 Application has joined
1228 2013-08-21 19:16:37 <michagogo> runeks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_control
1229 2013-08-21 19:16:54 <michagogo> Head
1230 2013-08-21 19:16:55 <michagogo> Also sometimes called tip, this refers to the most recent commit, either to the trunk or to a branch. The trunk and each branch have their own head, though HEAD is sometimes loosely used to refer to the trunk.[7]
1231 2013-08-21 19:17:16 <runeks> Well thank you. TIL.
1232 2013-08-21 19:17:21 <warren> The talk went extremely well. ~36 people who never used Bitcoin before learned a lot.
1233 2013-08-21 19:17:32 <gmaxwell> warren: was it recorded?
1234 2013-08-21 19:17:34 <warren> Someone else brought a Bitcoin ATM to demo.
1235 2013-08-21 19:17:37 <michagogo> [7] == http://garygregory.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/trunk-vs-head-in-version-control-systems/
1236 2013-08-21 19:17:43 <warren> gmaxwell: only photos I think
1237 2013-08-21 19:17:48 <michagogo> warren: Which talk?
1238 2013-08-21 19:18:08 <warren> michagogo: small local talk in the middle of nowhere
1239 2013-08-21 19:18:18 CheckDavid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1240 2013-08-21 19:18:20 <michagogo> I see.
1241 2013-08-21 19:18:26 <michagogo> What was the content of the talk?
1242 2013-08-21 19:18:39 <warren> I donated sipa's money to Wikipedia during the demo to demonstrate payment processors.
1243 2013-08-21 19:18:48 <gmaxwell> warren: as an asideâ I almost always record myself (just using my laptop) when I give a talk. I think doing so helped me improve my speaking style quite a bit.
1244 2013-08-21 19:18:50 <michagogo> Lol
1245 2013-08-21 19:18:54 <michagogo> (with sipa
1246 2013-08-21 19:18:59 <michagogo> (with sipa's consent, I assume?)
1247 2013-08-21 19:19:03 <warren> yes
1248 2013-08-21 19:19:07 patcon has joined
1249 2013-08-21 19:19:13 <michagogo> Also: didn't know they take bitcoins
1250 2013-08-21 19:19:17 <gmaxwell> haha "and now I demostrate wallet hacking"
1251 2013-08-21 19:19:23 <warren> hehehe
1252 2013-08-21 19:19:34 <warren> "Here's a flaw in secp256k1 ..."
1253 2013-08-21 19:19:36 <gmaxwell> michagogo: they don't, but bitpay will accept bitcoins and pay to wikipedia.
1254 2013-08-21 19:19:37 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1255 2013-08-21 19:19:45 CheckDavid has joined
1256 2013-08-21 19:19:46 <michagogo> Interesting.
1257 2013-08-21 19:20:21 <tgs3> how is land of the free progressing on making some legal trouble @ NY bitcoiners?
1258 2013-08-21 19:20:29 <michagogo> Is that in collaboration with wikipedia, or just you giving it to them to give to wikipedia?
1259 2013-08-21 19:20:30 <warren> I had no time to prep a slide deck, so it was a conversation that went mostly smoothly
1260 2013-08-21 19:20:33 <gmaxwell> warren: alas, if only I'd been giving a talk on any of the days when I triggered amusing bc.i behavior. "And nowâ I have all the bitcoins."
1261 2013-08-21 19:20:49 <michagogo> gmaxwell: LOL. What behavior was that?
1262 2013-08-21 19:21:16 <warren> Maybe 4 people in the audience had GPG keys but never tried Bitcoin.
1263 2013-08-21 19:21:16 <gmaxwell> michagogo: there have been a couple ones, e.g. https://people.xiph.org/~greg/21mbtc.png (a screenshot someone else took, I didn't think to take one)
1264 2013-08-21 19:21:25 <michagogo> And how do bitpay compare to other sites, like coinbase?
1265 2013-08-21 19:22:03 <gmaxwell> michagogo: or the XSS in a transaction one, https://blockchain.info/tx/59bd7b2cff5da929581fc9fef31a2fba14508f1477e366befb1eb42a8810a000?show_adv=true
1266 2013-08-21 19:22:39 <michagogo> jL_<script>window.alert("If this were an actual exploit, your mywallet would be empty.")</script>
1267 2013-08-21 19:22:40 <michagogo> lol
1268 2013-08-21 19:22:43 <gmaxwell> (which I don't have a screenshot of, alas)
1269 2013-08-21 19:22:48 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1270 2013-08-21 19:22:57 <michagogo> It's simple enough to figure out what it does :-P
1271 2013-08-21 19:23:28 sensorii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1272 2013-08-21 19:23:35 <michagogo> gmaxwell: How come https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=11425 lists two different addresses for you?
1273 2013-08-21 19:23:48 cypher has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1276 2013-08-21 19:24:14 Subo1977 has joined
1277 2013-08-21 19:24:17 <gmaxwell> michagogo: because I rotate the profile one ~every time it gets a payment.
1278 2013-08-21 19:24:24 FabianB_ is now known as FabianB
1279 2013-08-21 19:24:24 <michagogo> Interesting.
1280 2013-08-21 19:24:28 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1282 2013-08-21 19:24:28 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1283 2013-08-21 19:24:29 <michagogo> But not the signature one?
1284 2013-08-21 19:24:35 <warren> I showed this video in response to the scary parts of Bitcoin: video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000163361&play=1
1285 2013-08-21 19:24:43 <gmaxwell> michagogo: you really shouldn't be reusing addresses at all...
1286 2013-08-21 19:24:52 <warren> the first few minutes up until Jared Cohen's answer about Bitcoin is decent
1287 2013-08-21 19:25:01 CheckDavid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1288 2013-08-21 19:25:02 <michagogo> gmaxwell: So why do you? :-P
1289 2013-08-21 19:25:19 moarrr has quit ()
1290 2013-08-21 19:25:20 <gmaxwell> michagogo: I generally don't, the 1GMaxwell one is hardly ever used.
1291 2013-08-21 19:25:46 <gmaxwell> I've just used it for those few things that should be conspiciously involving me mostly.
1292 2013-08-21 19:25:46 <warren> multibit was ever affected by the PRNG problem?
1293 2013-08-21 19:27:04 wiretapped has joined
1294 2013-08-21 19:27:24 <gmaxwell> michagogo: the profile one mostly only gets used because thats where forum moderation payments go.
1295 2013-08-21 19:27:32 <michagogo> Ah.
1296 2013-08-21 19:27:37 <michagogo> Forum moderation payments?
1297 2013-08-21 19:28:32 <gmaxwell> michagogo: yea, the forum pays moderators, not a ton, but enough to make it feel like a little extra time checking it is well spent.
1298 2013-08-21 19:28:43 <michagogo> Cool. How much is it?
1299 2013-08-21 19:28:55 <michagogo> (on what order of magnitude?)
1300 2013-08-21 19:29:03 <warren> greater than 1 satoshi
1301 2013-08-21 19:30:02 <gmaxwell> depends on activity level and some known only to theymos magic, last month I got 3 BTC which is by far the most I've gotten from it.
1302 2013-08-21 19:30:33 <gmaxwell> it's mostly been about 1 BTC a month or so, for me. Some of the global moderators get quite a bit more, but they're also spending a whole lot of time on it.
1303 2013-08-21 19:31:00 <michagogo> Wow, nice
1304 2013-08-21 19:31:41 Applicat_ has joined
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1306 2013-08-21 19:31:59 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: probably, thanks for the report
1307 2013-08-21 19:32:15 <marcusw> gmaxwell: and that's all from donations?
1308 2013-08-21 19:32:46 <gmaxwell> marcusw: the forum has non-trivial income from the advertising on it.
1309 2013-08-21 19:33:49 <marcusw> the fun question is, how much does theymos make?
1310 2013-08-21 19:34:44 <gmaxwell> marcusw: a kazillion. No doubt. But ... like .. running the bitcoin forum, you have to be some kind of madman to run that place anyways.
1311 2013-08-21 19:34:54 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1313 2013-08-21 19:35:53 <marcusw> lol
1314 2013-08-21 19:36:05 <marcusw> it's nice that he pays in BTC
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1327 2013-08-21 19:53:26 <gmaxwell> OMG
1328 2013-08-21 19:53:35 <gmaxwell> I think I just invented something mildly awesome.
1329 2013-08-21 19:53:49 <gmaxwell> I have a way to _provably_ timelock bitcoins.
1330 2013-08-21 19:53:53 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Ooh?
1331 2013-08-21 19:54:01 <michagogo> How?
1332 2013-08-21 19:54:18 <gmaxwell> You have 10 BTC you want to be unspendable until 2014
1333 2013-08-21 19:54:56 <gmaxwell> You write a transaction with no inputs which pays 10 BTC to a new destination. The nlocktime is set to 2014.
1334 2013-08-21 19:55:28 <michagogo> Erm...
1335 2013-08-21 19:55:37 <gmaxwell> In the scriptsig for its input you set the sighash type to ANYONECANPAY. You set the signature to some random data.
1336 2013-08-21 19:55:43 <gmaxwell> Then you solve for the public key.
1337 2013-08-21 19:56:02 <gmaxwell> You have now computed your redemption transaction without the payment transaction existing.
1338 2013-08-21 19:56:14 <gmaxwell> then you pay your coins you want to lock to that address.
1339 2013-08-21 19:56:24 CheckDavid has joined
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1341 2013-08-21 19:56:44 Coincidental has joined
1342 2013-08-21 19:57:31 <marcusw> you can solve for pubkey with sig+hash? 0.o
1343 2013-08-21 19:57:37 <gmaxwell> marcusw: yes.
1344 2013-08-21 19:58:22 <marcusw> what crypto is that?
1345 2013-08-21 19:58:48 <gmaxwell> Works fine for ECDSA.
1346 2013-08-21 19:59:25 * michagogo doesn't understand gmaxwell's plan because he doesn't know all the very-base-level details, like what a sighash is
1347 2013-08-21 20:00:40 <gmaxwell> oh darn, it won't work because of course ANYONECANPAY still binds the single input.
1348 2013-08-21 20:00:40 PrimeStunna has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1349 2013-08-21 20:00:40 <marcusw> lol ECDSA
1350 2013-08-21 20:00:40 <Scrat> it's a salute of the dev army
1351 2013-08-21 20:00:40 * Scrat sig hashes michagogo
1352 2013-08-21 20:00:47 <marcusw> fuck one thing up and you can solve algebraically for the privkey
1353 2013-08-21 20:02:14 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1354 2013-08-21 20:02:14 <gmaxwell> marcusw: A lot of signature systems have that property, in fact depending on how you define "one thing" they all do.
1355 2013-08-21 20:02:52 <marcusw> gmaxwell: but dupe IVs causing privkey leaks with trivial effort?
1356 2013-08-21 20:03:26 Application has joined
1357 2013-08-21 20:03:27 <gmaxwell> marcusw: sure, any DSA has that property.
1358 2013-08-21 20:03:35 <gmaxwell> marcusw: though it's trivially solved.
1359 2013-08-21 20:03:59 <marcusw> kinda seems a little risky, hmm?
1360 2013-08-21 20:04:04 Applicat_ has joined
1361 2013-08-21 20:04:32 <michagogo> Also that's not a problem if have a good source of entropy OR you don't reuse addresses (though the second one's not entirely up to you, of course)
1362 2013-08-21 20:04:46 <michagogo> BTW, how large can the R value be>
1363 2013-08-21 20:04:48 <michagogo> be?*
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1368 2013-08-21 20:11:36 <gmaxwell> michagogo: R is a point on our curve.
1369 2013-08-21 20:11:44 <gmaxwell> marcusw: whats risky?
1370 2013-08-21 20:12:07 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1371 2013-08-21 20:12:21 <gmaxwell> michagogo: 'good source of entropy' just has certificaiton problems. Someone gives you a black box signing tool. How can you tell if its evil?
1372 2013-08-21 20:12:42 <michagogo> [23:11:17] <gmaxwell> michagogo: R is a point on our curve.
1373 2013-08-21 20:12:42 <michagogo> Hmm?
1374 2013-08-21 20:12:54 <gmaxwell> michagogo: in any case, derandomized dsa solves this, and I'd like the bitcoin ecosystem to switch to derandomized dsa (and have been whining about that for a long time)
1375 2013-08-21 20:12:59 digitalmagus2 has joined
1376 2013-08-21 20:13:22 <michagogo> Does a switch to derandomized dsa allow for backwards compatibility, or is it a hardfork?
1377 2013-08-21 20:13:36 <gmaxwell> It's fully compatible.
1378 2013-08-21 20:13:46 <michagogo> How does it differ
1379 2013-08-21 20:13:47 <michagogo> ?
1380 2013-08-21 20:14:55 <gmaxwell> The details of any particular scheme are slightly more complicated, but effectively you set K = H(hashed-message || private key).
1381 2013-08-21 20:15:02 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1382 2013-08-21 20:16:42 jevin has joined
1383 2013-08-21 20:16:45 <marcusw> so why haven't we switched?
1384 2013-08-21 20:17:35 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1385 2013-08-21 20:19:25 arioBarzan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1386 2013-08-21 20:20:56 <gmaxwell> marcusw: because no one that needs to switch thinks they need to by definition. ... Also, until recently, there wasn't a published standard for doing derandomized DSA, so it was easy to be cryptoparanoid about any particular approach someone might have suggested.
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1397 2013-08-21 20:31:20 Scrat is now known as Scratbear
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1400 2013-08-21 20:35:09 <sipa> warren: are you saying i never did a gitian build?
1401 2013-08-21 20:35:36 Coincidental has joined
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1404 2013-08-21 20:36:54 <michagogo> ...what?
1405 2013-08-21 20:36:54 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1406 2013-08-21 20:37:01 * michagogo checks his email
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1408 2013-08-21 20:37:35 paracyst has joined
1409 2013-08-21 20:39:00 <michagogo> Ah
1410 2013-08-21 20:39:10 Diapolis has joined
1411 2013-08-21 20:40:20 <michagogo> sipa: Er, he didn't say "s"...
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1418 2013-08-21 20:43:18 * [7] slaps michagogo :P
1419 2013-08-21 20:43:19 * michagogo slaps [7] around a bit with a large trout
1420 2013-08-21 20:43:27 sacredchao has joined
1421 2013-08-21 20:43:28 <michagogo> .w [7]
1422 2013-08-21 20:43:29 <michagogo> bah
1423 2013-08-21 20:43:45 <michagogo> [7]: Why?
1424 2013-08-21 20:43:59 <[7]> because these stupid quotations keep highlighting me :P
1425 2013-08-21 20:44:19 <michagogo> erm
1426 2013-08-21 20:44:36 <michagogo> Wait, what?
1427 2013-08-21 20:44:43 <michagogo> You highlight on the numeral 7?
1428 2013-08-21 20:44:49 <[7]> I highlight [7]
1429 2013-08-21 20:45:01 CodeShark has joined
1430 2013-08-21 20:45:02 <michagogo> Oh, LOL
1431 2013-08-21 20:45:07 <michagogo> The wikipedia article?
1432 2013-08-21 20:45:33 <[7]> yep. keeps happening once a week or so
1433 2013-08-21 20:45:49 <[7]> the number 7 seems to be used fairly often in references :/
1434 2013-08-21 20:46:50 Diapolis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1442 2013-08-21 21:03:13 <sipa> why we need to split bitcoind from the wallet: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kt970/bitcoin_developers_need_api_to_analyze_the/cbse0k8
1443 2013-08-21 21:03:18 Anduckkk has joined
1444 2013-08-21 21:04:18 <warren> sipa: no
1445 2013-08-21 21:04:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't actually understand whats being said there. They're worried about people trying to get their private keys so they are using blockchain.info's api?
1446 2013-08-21 21:04:36 <gmaxwell> (not that I disagree with your conclusions in the slightest!!)
1447 2013-08-21 21:04:53 Anduck_ has joined
1448 2013-08-21 21:05:04 <warren> sipa: I'm saying that j, p and g, prominent devs have never contributed to gitian.sigs.
1449 2013-08-21 21:05:07 <SomeoneWeird> they don't want to use the API on a node that has keys
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1452 2013-08-21 21:05:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: you may miss some context in the post they're replying to
1453 2013-08-21 21:06:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: the reason for not using bitcoind as an API is because that bitcoind also manages their wallet, and they can't run because of hardware constraints
1454 2013-08-21 21:06:29 <sipa> can't run 2
1455 2013-08-21 21:06:52 <sipa> warren: i have no clue what 'p' you're referring to then :)
1456 2013-08-21 21:07:00 <warren> sipa: he knows who he is. =)
1457 2013-08-21 21:07:04 <sipa> ok
1458 2013-08-21 21:07:24 <sipa> Ah.
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1460 2013-08-21 21:09:23 <Krellan> Luke-Jr: Thanks. I experimented with this patch to perhaps work around floating-point rounding that would cause that percentage cosmetic display glitch: http://pastebin.com/YfaYwGDH
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1464 2013-08-21 21:09:27 <gmaxwell> warren: so, how many patches should I fail to review in exchange for spending that time getting a secure gitian setup working? 10, 20? Whats the fair tradeoff? Part of the notion of gitian is that anyone can run it. And in doing so they prove that the binaries match the source. You don't need to be a trusted person.
1465 2013-08-21 21:10:22 <warren> gmaxwell: yeah, I've been trying to convince random large numbers of community to join in gitian submission, largely it has been a failure.
1466 2013-08-21 21:11:12 <warren> gmaxwell: although, my port of the gitian stack continues to work great on fedora 19, just reinstalled a few days ago. You can be gitian building in minutes.
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1471 2013-08-21 21:12:32 <gmaxwell> warren: Thanks for the reminder on that. I now have enough free space to try on my laptop. (I'd been trucking along with just a small ssd and upgraded to a .5tb one recently) But really, you don't want to bug the committers to run it.
1472 2013-08-21 21:12:54 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1473 2013-08-21 21:13:07 <warren> gmaxwell: I've been trying with oversubscribed cycles to get others to join...
1474 2013-08-21 21:13:18 <warren> brb, need food
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1483 2013-08-21 21:23:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm still not sure on your read of that situation. I think he doesn't want to run bitcoind _at all_. But I've asked a question that should clarify it.
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1491 2013-08-21 21:31:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think instead "dual server solution" to him means running bitcoind on one server, the webserver on another. ... and what he actually wants is a watch only wallet.
1492 2013-08-21 21:31:54 <gmaxwell> (or addr index)
1493 2013-08-21 21:32:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, i think you're right
1494 2013-08-21 21:33:55 <gmaxwell> I would suggest the encrypted wallet "watching wallet thing, but I think its too safely to really recommend to people.
1495 2013-08-21 21:33:59 <gmaxwell> "
1496 2013-08-21 21:34:30 <stingsay`> can some body please donate me
1497 2013-08-21 21:35:08 <sipa> stingsay`: no begging please
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1500 2013-08-21 21:35:35 * gmaxwell donates stingsay` to sipa
1501 2013-08-21 21:35:53 <stingsay`> not begging . only testing i have first time install bitcion i am only testing
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1503 2013-08-21 21:36:19 <stingsay`> only one unit
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1505 2013-08-21 21:36:30 <sipa> stingsay`: use testnet
1506 2013-08-21 21:36:32 <stingsay`> i am asking only one unit
1507 2013-08-21 21:36:37 <stingsay`> testnet
1508 2013-08-21 21:36:47 <stingsay`> sipa what is a testnet
1509 2013-08-21 21:36:48 <stingsay`> ??
1510 2013-08-21 21:36:54 <sipa> it's an alternate network, with almost the same rules as the bitcoin main network
1511 2013-08-21 21:36:59 <sipa> except its coins are worthless
1512 2013-08-21 21:37:13 <sipa> start bitcoind or bitcoin-qt with the '-testnet' command-line flag
1513 2013-08-21 21:37:27 <stingsay`> wow
1514 2013-08-21 21:37:31 <stingsay`> sipa thainsk
1515 2013-08-21 21:37:33 <stingsay`> thanks
1516 2013-08-21 21:37:55 <sipa> i believe there's a site where you can get free testnet coins
1517 2013-08-21 21:38:54 <gmaxwell> Nextime we reboot testnet perhaps we should make it so there is a magical 000000 txout that always exists and allows some faucet an infinite supply of coins. :P
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1519 2013-08-21 21:40:39 <stingsay`> sipa you know Avalon ASIC alternative . or something similar with datasheet
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1524 2013-08-21 21:44:03 <michagogo> stingsay`: Once you have testnet running (a couple ways to tell: the bitcoin icons will be green, and addresses start not with 1, but with m or n) you can get free testnet coins from http://testnet.mojocoin.com/ (rate-limited) and from http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/ (captcha'd)
1525 2013-08-21 21:45:06 <stingsay`> michagogo yes it's green but sync again 132 weeks
1526 2013-08-21 21:45:25 <michagogo> stingsay`: Yes, it's a separate blockchain, so you'll need to sync again
1527 2013-08-21 21:45:34 <michagogo> It should take less time than it did for mainnet.
1528 2013-08-21 21:45:50 <sipa> far far less
1529 2013-08-21 21:45:52 <stingsay`> oh
1530 2013-08-21 21:46:05 <stingsay`> ok thanks friends
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1551 2013-08-21 22:05:27 <Krellan> Luke-Jr: If acceptable I made a pull request for it. https://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer/pull/267
1552 2013-08-21 22:09:35 <dugo> 10k dumped at tpfaucet, hth
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1559 2013-08-21 22:22:04 * dugo digresses and thinks the reCAPTCHA guys need to get some better lenses for their book scanners
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1639 2013-08-21 23:56:53 <Goonie> gavinandresen: ping
1640 2013-08-21 23:57:02 <gavinandresen> pong
1641 2013-08-21 23:57:12 <Goonie> re BIP70: I just thought that PaymentDetails/payment_url should be a list 0..x of urls. How should the merchant know the capabilities of the customer? He should provide all alternatives he can handle.
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1643 2013-08-21 23:57:42 <Goonie> with capabilities, I mean he could be able to handle TCP/IP, bluetooth or wifi direct
1644 2013-08-21 23:57:47 <Goonie> or just a subset of those
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1646 2013-08-21 23:58:17 <sipa> i think the best to deal with that, is always use the protocol through which the customer got it
1647 2013-08-21 23:58:30 <sipa> the payment request, that is
1648 2013-08-21 23:58:39 <Goonie> well that will likely be NFC or a QR code
1649 2013-08-21 23:58:56 <gavinandresen> Goonie: just add extension fields to the PaymentDetails-- e.g. wifi_uri ⦠with whatever wacky syntax for wifi direct....
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