1 2013-08-22 00:00:06 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2 2013-08-22 00:00:10 <gavinandresen> (or bluetooth_server_uuid or whatever)
3 2013-08-22 00:00:20 <Goonie> ok bluetooth is the more realistic example, since there is already a payment protocol via bluetooth that could make use of PaymentRequests
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5 2013-08-22 00:01:26 <gavinandresen> Would using an extension bluetooth_something field work?
6 2013-08-22 00:01:27 <Goonie> ok why not a list of urls? bluetooth uuids can be written as bluetooth:<uuid>
7 2013-08-22 00:01:57 <Goonie> yes I think it would work with dedicated fields as well
8 2013-08-22 00:02:25 <gavinandresen> seems cleaner to me to keep separate protocols separate, and not try to wedge them all into uri schemes.
9 2013-08-22 00:02:39 <sipa> well that is what uri's are for...
10 2013-08-22 00:02:58 <Goonie> ok but in this case I'd suggest renaming the payment_url field to make it clearer its only for web
11 2013-08-22 00:03:11 <sipa> though i wonder whether it would make sense to have a pseudo-uri like "return:"
12 2013-08-22 00:03:13 <gavinandresen> "url" implies web, yes?
13 2013-08-22 00:03:32 <gavinandresen> (it is not "payment_uri")
14 2013-08-22 00:03:37 <sipa> meaning return to where you got it from - for example for NFC, it's obvious what that means
15 2013-08-22 00:04:01 <Goonie> returning via NFC would be useless - nobody wants to pair their devices twice
16 2013-08-22 00:04:09 <Goonie> and then a third time for the ack?
17 2013-08-22 00:04:37 Coincidental has joined
18 2013-08-22 00:04:52 <sipa> i know too little about NFC, perhaps, and it's likely premature to design for it
19 2013-08-22 00:05:00 <sipa> but pairing is really fast, from what i've seen
20 2013-08-22 00:05:31 <sipa> hold phone against other device, show payment info, click ok, and hold it again
21 2013-08-22 00:05:34 <Goonie> depends on how good the users are at it. can easily take 1 minute if you're not skilled
22 2013-08-22 00:05:39 <edcba> return ?
23 2013-08-22 00:05:41 <sipa> oh really
24 2013-08-22 00:05:48 <Goonie> if you don't find the spot
25 2013-08-22 00:06:01 <sipa> nvm then
26 2013-08-22 00:06:01 <sipa> that probably not very usable whatsoever then
27 2013-08-22 00:06:08 <Goonie> if the other guy doesn't know he needs to press the animation
28 2013-08-22 00:06:20 <edcba> you always know where the money come from
29 2013-08-22 00:06:51 <Goonie> in any case you really only want to do that once and after pairing use bluetooth or tcp
30 2013-08-22 00:06:58 <sipa> right
31 2013-08-22 00:08:15 <Goonie> ok back to the bluetooth field
32 2013-08-22 00:08:24 one_zero has joined
33 2013-08-22 00:08:38 <Goonie> the most important value is actually the btmac, which is different for each device
34 2013-08-22 00:08:41 <gavinandresen> Goonie: I don't know nuthin about bluetooth/NFC/direct wifi. A whitepaper (that might turn into a BIP) on extending the payment protocol for those use cases would be awesome.
35 2013-08-22 00:09:04 <gavinandresen> ⦠and maybe setting aside some fields for those uses at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Payment_Request now makes sense.
36 2013-08-22 00:09:09 <Goonie> the UUID serves a bit like port numbers for ip. I currently hardcode it to a constant value.
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43 2013-08-22 00:16:33 <Goonie> gavinandresen: if we have a "payment_bluetooth" field that would be good for now.
44 2013-08-22 00:16:59 <Goonie> wifi-direct can come later. I mentioned it just because it is a possibility.
45 2013-08-22 00:19:27 PrimeStunna has joined
46 2013-08-22 00:20:48 <gavinandresen> Goonie: we have as many extension fields as we like; protocol buffers are very extensible. Bluetooth support would look like: -- discuss/design -- implement -- write up a BIP -- get "everybody" to support it
47 2013-08-22 00:23:23 Nesetalis has joined
48 2013-08-22 00:24:05 <dugo> i have about 2k surplus in testnet3 coins after testing .. feel free to msg if you know a good destination (yes, i donated to the faucet already)
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55 2013-08-22 00:47:30 <Luke-Jr> looks like we finally triggered the May15 hardfork!
56 2013-08-22 00:48:42 <Cusipzzz> whoa..what block # ? haven't checked on my .7 node in ages
57 2013-08-22 00:48:54 <Luke-Jr> 253451 http://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000028d6ae33b846dbbe9a3f6cd82819844a29630366e5cc984c43
58 2013-08-22 00:49:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it was triggered by a 112k block?
59 2013-08-22 00:50:38 <nsh> PARTAI
60 2013-08-22 00:50:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: apparently
61 2013-08-22 00:51:04 <Luke-Jr> now to see if the backport solves it
62 2013-08-22 00:51:07 <CobaltBlueD> Happy Big Fork Day!
63 2013-08-22 00:51:17 <c0rw1n> Yay!
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72 2013-08-22 00:57:20 <sipa> 112k? that shouldn't be possible
73 2013-08-22 00:57:29 <sipa> unless it's in a reorg with other blocks
74 2013-08-22 00:57:34 wiretapped has joined
75 2013-08-22 00:57:42 <Cusipzzz> can't find my .7 node..sigh
76 2013-08-22 00:58:04 <Luke-Jr> ERROR: ConnectBlock() : UpdateTxIndex failed
77 2013-08-22 00:58:06 <Luke-Jr> ERROR: Reorganize() : ConnectBlock 0000000000000024b58e failed
78 2013-08-22 00:58:07 <Luke-Jr> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=0000000000000033b63f height=252636 work=2841125657331301523337 date=17/08/13 12:01:34
79 2013-08-22 00:58:33 <Luke-Jr> earlier
80 2013-08-22 00:58:35 <Luke-Jr> Postponing 185 reconnects
81 2013-08-22 00:58:37 <Luke-Jr> REORGANIZE
82 2013-08-22 00:58:38 <Luke-Jr> REORGANIZE: Disconnect 0 blocks; 000000000000004bd037..000000000000004bd037
83 2013-08-22 00:58:40 <Luke-Jr> REORGANIZE: Connect 1 blocks; 000000000000004bd037..0000000000000024b58e
84 2013-08-22 00:59:17 <dugo> ?
85 2013-08-22 00:59:48 <Luke-Jr> sipa: do you want me to clone my 072 dir before I try 07x on it?
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90 2013-08-22 01:09:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: see that reddit thread again, he clarified that he doesn't want to run a full node.
91 2013-08-22 01:09:36 <sipa> ok
92 2013-08-22 01:10:12 <PRab> Anyone figure out how many BDB locks block 253451 (the "big fork") took?
93 2013-08-22 01:10:33 <PRab> I'm not concerned, just curious.
94 2013-08-22 01:11:06 <gmaxwell> PRab: have to seen other nodes tossed by it?
95 2013-08-22 01:11:47 <PRab> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278358.0 looks like it stalled there also.
96 2013-08-22 01:12:11 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
97 2013-08-22 01:13:16 <PRab> oh wait... Off by exactly 1000. It could be something different.
98 2013-08-22 01:13:41 msvb-lab has joined
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104 2013-08-22 01:22:11 <theboos> Are transaction ID's simply hashes of the transaction data or are there any check digits involved?
105 2013-08-22 01:22:40 <sipa> just hashes
106 2013-08-22 01:23:07 <theboos> ok, so always 256 bits/64 hex chars?
107 2013-08-22 01:23:11 <sipa> yes
108 2013-08-22 01:23:56 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
109 2013-08-22 01:24:06 <theboos> thanks
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124 2013-08-22 02:04:02 <Pucilowski> I connected to the mtgox websocket stream and I'm being fed trades/depth updates as soon as I connect without even subscribing to any channels. Is this normal?
125 2013-08-22 02:05:34 testnode9 has joined
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128 2013-08-22 02:08:02 <phantomcircuit> Pucilowski, yes those are the default channels
129 2013-08-22 02:08:08 <phantomcircuit> since 99% of people want that info
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137 2013-08-22 02:22:28 <warren> btw, does solo GBT mining still require an external block notify?
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185 2013-08-22 03:39:49 <gbg> Shameless self-promotion: http://bitcoinbriefcase.com
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199 2013-08-22 04:04:25 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2906 how do you folks feel about this patch?
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203 2013-08-22 04:07:37 <gmaxwell> warren: "meh". I told codeshark it needs a list at least!
204 2013-08-22 04:08:02 <CodeShark> can you elaborate on this "list"?
205 2013-08-22 04:08:05 <gmaxwell> I also "meh" at this still not having done anything useful for tor/hs peers.
206 2013-08-22 04:08:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: listbannedhosts
207 2013-08-22 04:08:21 <warren> ahhh
208 2013-08-22 04:08:29 <warren> that would be helpful
209 2013-08-22 04:08:34 <CodeShark> I could easily add that
210 2013-08-22 04:09:35 <gmaxwell> sorry, thought you saw that before.
211 2013-08-22 04:09:44 <CodeShark> no, must have been busy with something
212 2013-08-22 04:09:48 <CodeShark> sorry :)
213 2013-08-22 04:10:38 <gmaxwell> does anyone have any idea how banning can be made useful with HS peers? because right now just improving banning on IPv4 is not terribly useful. (not a reason to not take the patch, but it is a reason I don't care terribly much)
214 2013-08-22 04:11:00 <CodeShark> my main use is in testing and debugging other code
215 2013-08-22 04:12:04 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: oh if you're getting yourself banned you can just set the threshold impossibly high. :P
216 2013-08-22 04:12:12 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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218 2013-08-22 04:12:23 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I also want to test bitcoind's misbehavior detection and DoS prevention while I'm at it
219 2013-08-22 04:12:58 <CodeShark> to make this feature useful for banning/unbanning other people's nodes, we'd need to persist this data
220 2013-08-22 04:13:49 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
221 2013-08-22 04:15:07 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: also, I don't want to set the threshold high for untrusted nodes :)
222 2013-08-22 04:17:13 <CodeShark> I'll tell you what, I'll add listbannednodes right now since it won't take me very long - but not sure I really want to spend too much time extending this further...I'd rather work on improving the networking code at a more fundamental level
223 2013-08-22 04:19:37 <warren> Does anyone know where the leveldb git subtree now in bitcoin came from? It doesn't match 1.12 upstream.
224 2013-08-22 04:21:06 <gmaxwell> warren: it should match plus our patches now.
225 2013-08-22 04:23:16 <warren> https://code.google.com/p/leveldb/source/list 1.12 here doesn't match the leveldb in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/0.8.4
226 2013-08-22 04:23:52 oleganza has joined
227 2013-08-22 04:23:55 <warren> I have no idea where a02ddf9b14d145e88185ee209ab8b01d8826663a is coming from, no reference to it anywhere else
228 2013-08-22 04:23:55 Bwild has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
229 2013-08-22 04:23:58 <warren> oleganza: hey
230 2013-08-22 04:24:05 <oleganza> hey
231 2013-08-22 04:24:12 <warren> oleganza: are you the one that submitted the Norwegian translation fixes?
232 2013-08-22 04:24:16 erska has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
233 2013-08-22 04:24:19 <oleganza> nope
234 2013-08-22 04:24:22 qbasicer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
235 2013-08-22 04:24:22 <warren> oh ok
236 2013-08-22 04:24:32 Bwild has joined
237 2013-08-22 04:24:35 <gmaxwell> warren: oh, you're asking where _this_ is? https://github.com/bitcoin/leveldb
238 2013-08-22 04:24:37 kantlivelong has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
239 2013-08-22 04:24:42 <warren> oh!
240 2013-08-22 04:24:50 <warren> k
241 2013-08-22 04:24:58 <oleganza> i'm from st. petersburg, russia. It's close to Norway, but not that much :-)
242 2013-08-22 04:25:44 <gmaxwell> warren: if you're mimicking us in ltcland, I recommend you establish your own leveldb fork (it can just be a copy of ours if you like) and track that.
243 2013-08-22 04:25:54 kantlivelong has joined
244 2013-08-22 04:26:05 erska has joined
245 2013-08-22 04:26:14 <gmaxwell> (otherwise you depend on our leveldb repo, and thats kinda ugly)
246 2013-08-22 04:26:30 <warren> Litecoin is unoriginal anyway.
247 2013-08-22 04:28:16 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
248 2013-08-22 04:28:18 <gmaxwell> uhh.
249 2013-08-22 04:29:06 <gmaxwell> https://forum.filezilla-project.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30240
250 2013-08-22 04:29:55 <warren> "Haha, stupid Ask uses 16bit code."
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255 2013-08-22 04:36:44 <Arnavion> As much as botg is a dick to his users, his users don't seem to make his attitude seem misplaced...
256 2013-08-22 04:36:49 etotheipi_ has quit (Client Quit)
257 2013-08-22 04:39:22 <oleganza> hey guys, in script.cpp, does "valtype vchFalse(0)" mean that false value is an empty array, not a 1-byte array "0x00"?
258 2013-08-22 04:41:12 <gavinandresen> oleganza: yes
259 2013-08-22 04:41:33 <oleganza> thanks
260 2013-08-22 04:42:08 <oleganza> i'm working on this, btw: https://github.com/oleganza/CoreBitcoin/blob/master/CoreBitcoin/BTCScriptMachine.m
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263 2013-08-22 04:46:29 <CodeShark> it's unfortunate that so little of the script's capabilities are being used and that the current state of affairs is that all "standard" transaction types require code to deal with those specific cases
264 2013-08-22 04:47:14 <CodeShark> in much of what I've been working on I don't even bother with running a full scripting engine and just use simple pattern matching
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267 2013-08-22 04:48:00 <warren> Don't worry, Satoshi was infallible, and he will return one day in a beam of light and save us.
268 2013-08-22 04:48:06 <CodeShark> lol
269 2013-08-22 04:49:00 <gavinandresen> I've been saying for years: come up with a good use case, write code, test on testnet, and I'd be happy to enlarge the set of standard transactions.
270 2013-08-22 04:49:10 <CodeShark> it seems if the protocol supports a scripting language it should be up to recipients to decide whether or not they want to accept a particular type of transaction, not up to the verification/relay nodes
271 2013-08-22 04:49:27 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: sure, thats the end goal.
272 2013-08-22 04:49:27 <gavinandresen> okey dokey
273 2013-08-22 04:49:52 <CodeShark> the verification/relay nodes should faithfully run the script
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275 2013-08-22 04:50:03 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: they do, if its in a block.
276 2013-08-22 04:50:20 <jgarzik> well
277 2013-08-22 04:50:20 <CodeShark> right, but it is not relayed as an individual tx
278 2013-08-22 04:50:33 <jgarzik> Satoshi himself said that a full script engine was not need, for thin clients
279 2013-08-22 04:50:38 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I mean you can go ahead and happily ignore the MULTIPLE TIMES THE ENTIRE NETWORK HAS BROKEN AS A RESULT OF BUGS WITH CRAZY SCRIPTS if you like butâ¦
280 2013-08-22 04:50:40 <jgarzik> just pattern matching
281 2013-08-22 04:50:45 <CodeShark> jgarzik: yes, indeed
282 2013-08-22 04:50:54 <CodeShark> the scripting engine is only needed for verification
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284 2013-08-22 04:51:03 <gavinandresen> speaking of standard transactions⦠where are we at with OP_RETURN as standard transactions?
285 2013-08-22 04:51:18 <CodeShark> and general verification, at that - if a thin client only accepts a particular type of transaction simple pattern matching will do just fine
286 2013-08-22 04:51:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, I think it was waiting on sipa's pull req to prune such
287 2013-08-22 04:52:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, which in turn make gettxoutset change its results
288 2013-08-22 04:52:18 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I understand the risk in supporting a full scripting language. but the sane alternatives seem to either implement it correctly so that THE NETWORK DOES NOT BREAK - or stick to simple pattern matching and a few standard types
289 2013-08-22 04:52:19 <jgarzik> which in turn caused feathers to ruffle and murmur and harumph
290 2013-08-22 04:52:29 <gavinandresen> "okey dokey"
291 2013-08-22 04:52:48 <Eneerge> okie dookie
292 2013-08-22 04:52:49 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: sure, and we'll get there eventually, more types have been added over time, and more will be added in the future.
293 2013-08-22 04:52:55 <warren> harumph
294 2013-08-22 04:53:08 <CodeShark> but if each type requires a special case to handle it we haven't really benefitted at all from a scripting language
295 2013-08-22 04:53:10 <gavinandresen> OP_RETURN as standard transactions isn't high on my priority list, but lots of half-finished projects gets hard to keep track of
296 2013-08-22 04:53:14 etotheipi____ has joined
297 2013-08-22 04:53:54 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I do note that just in the last month non-standard txn have been used to break alternative implementations, I believe, three times.. as well as to demonstrate a serious XSS bug on blockchain.info...
298 2013-08-22 04:54:54 <CodeShark> the bitcoin network is inherently fragile in this respect
299 2013-08-22 04:55:06 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I did not know that. Alt chains that got rid of IsStandard ?
300 2013-08-22 04:55:10 <CodeShark> alternative implementations with even the subtlest of behavioral differences can produce a fork
301 2013-08-22 04:55:11 <oleganza> gavinandresen: what are these OP_RETURN txs?
302 2013-08-22 04:55:15 etotheipi__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
303 2013-08-22 04:55:22 <gavinandresen> oleganza: provably unspendable outputs
304 2013-08-22 04:55:39 <oleganza> who uses them?
305 2013-08-22 04:55:50 <warren> oleganza: p2pool-13
306 2013-08-22 04:56:49 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: alternative bitcoin implementations... Some non-IsStandard txn got mined, since some miners take some of them (well, mostly eligius). Bitcoin ruby got forked, electrum's server got forked twice, and blockchain.info got javascript popups. :P
307 2013-08-22 04:57:25 <jgarzik> and at a minimum, python bugs founds
308 2013-08-22 04:57:29 <gavinandresen> oh, so it was infrastructure that just didn'thandle non-standard transactions in blocks?
309 2013-08-22 04:57:29 <CodeShark> it could be argued that it would be preferable for these bugs to arise sooner rather than later
310 2013-08-22 04:57:33 <jgarzik> *found
311 2013-08-22 04:57:48 <oleganza> where can i read more on their usage of OP_RETURN?
312 2013-08-22 04:58:29 <oleganza> yep, i'd like OP_POPUPALERT
313 2013-08-22 04:58:33 <CodeShark> lol
314 2013-08-22 04:58:36 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yes. Just incorrect rules validation.
315 2013-08-22 04:58:40 <gavinandresen> oleganza: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738 which points to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1809 which has further links...
316 2013-08-22 04:59:03 <gmaxwell> (well and the last what bc.i displayed transaction data as ascii with no escaping of html in it...)
317 2013-08-22 04:59:10 zer0def has joined
318 2013-08-22 04:59:17 <oleganza> oookay. Thanks again
319 2013-08-22 04:59:24 <CodeShark> anyhow, it sort of sucks that nonstandard transactions are currently only a miner's game and that I as a recipient can't choose what types of transactions to support
320 2013-08-22 05:00:14 <gmaxwell> so fix it, go write up example usages and tests and such and work through opcodes getting them reallowed.
321 2013-08-22 05:00:27 <gavinandresen> yeah, what gmaxwell said....
322 2013-08-22 05:00:30 <CodeShark> and so much of the current codebase depends on a few special cases that moving to the fully general case doesn't seem like something that will happen anytime soon
323 2013-08-22 05:00:57 <oleganza> I had this funny idea recently about hash-equilibrium mutually-locked deposit tx. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=273539.msg2935099#msg2935099
324 2013-08-22 05:01:03 <justusranvier> That blockchain.info attack is nasty because you can't use their wallet and noscript at the same time.
325 2013-08-22 05:01:12 <gavinandresen> moving to a better "fully general" case in a year or three is more likely.
326 2013-08-22 05:01:49 <CodeShark> we might as well just support a few specific transaction types and screw the script - take the time to develop a better script
327 2013-08-22 05:01:53 etotheipi_ has joined
328 2013-08-22 05:02:07 <oleganza> tldr: two strangers want to trade $100-worth of stuff, they lock up $300 each in the blockchain. Then they trade how they want.
329 2013-08-22 05:02:21 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: what are you talking about?
330 2013-08-22 05:02:29 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: turning off isstandard works just fine right now.
331 2013-08-22 05:02:34 <gmaxwell> testnet runs that way.
332 2013-08-22 05:02:43 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: but most nodes won't relay nonstandard unless it's in a block
333 2013-08-22 05:02:47 <oleganza> The funds can only be unlocked by consent of both parties. Or destroyed by anyone if someone is misbehaving.
334 2013-08-22 05:02:47 <CodeShark> so it's next to useless
335 2013-08-22 05:02:55 <CodeShark> unless you're a miner
336 2013-08-22 05:03:01 rdymac has joined
337 2013-08-22 05:03:13 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: What you're saying is not consistent with yourself.
338 2013-08-22 05:03:20 <oleganza> CodeShark: testnet relays everything if understand right
339 2013-08-22 05:03:25 <CodeShark> yes, testnet does
340 2013-08-22 05:03:40 <gmaxwell> "< CodeShark> and so much of the current codebase depends on a few special cases" != "< CodeShark> gmaxwell: but most nodes won't relay"
341 2013-08-22 05:03:47 sserrano44 has joined
342 2013-08-22 05:04:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: if you have a new transaction type you want used you can have it usable by connecting to a specific node within hours. This is not an enormous barrier.
343 2013-08-22 05:05:45 <CodeShark> I think you guys are missing my point - I'm saying that if in practice (as in in actual commerce) only a handful of transactions are used and each type requires special handling, it would probably be smarter to not even support a general scripting language in the initial versions and take the time to develop a better one
344 2013-08-22 05:05:59 <CodeShark> and add it in a later version
345 2013-08-22 05:06:11 <oleganza> CodeShark: unfortunately, it's too late :-(
346 2013-08-22 05:06:16 <oleganza> i meant, :-)
347 2013-08-22 05:07:01 <CodeShark> by develop, I don't just mean hack together a few pieces of code - I'm talking about rigorous testing as well
348 2013-08-22 05:07:07 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: well, too late because we already have one.
349 2013-08-22 05:07:23 <gavinandresen> I'm having trouble imagining a fully general scripting system where each script form does NOT require special handling
350 2013-08-22 05:07:46 <gmaxwell> reciever side always would.
351 2013-08-22 05:08:08 <CodeShark> receiving transactions is a wholely separate application from full verification/relay
352 2013-08-22 05:08:15 <CodeShark> I'm talking about verification/relay
353 2013-08-22 05:08:17 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: ah you can't talk. http://www.wikihow.com/Register-a-User-Name-on-Freenode
354 2013-08-22 05:08:44 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: there isn't any special casing in verification / relay.
355 2013-08-22 05:09:07 <gmaxwell> (except for the IsStandard thing preventing people from sneaking up nasty bloating crappy things on us.)
356 2013-08-22 05:09:09 <CodeShark> well, there is because nonstandard transactions don't get relayed by the vast majority of full nodes
357 2013-08-22 05:09:59 etotheipi_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
358 2013-08-22 05:10:10 <CodeShark> unfortuntately, these special cases do pervade significant portions of the codebase of bitcoind
359 2013-08-22 05:10:21 <CodeShark> Solve() for instance
360 2013-08-22 05:10:30 <CodeShark> which is used by the bloom filters
361 2013-08-22 05:10:42 <oleganza> CodeShark: i have some plans for non-standard txs. I'll build my app using them. If they work fine and turn out to be useful, maybe more miners will accept them
362 2013-08-22 05:11:05 <oleganza> meanwhile they'll take an hour or two to confirm, but for my purposes it's fine
363 2013-08-22 05:11:21 <CodeShark> the wallet deals with special cases, but as we said earlier, it's fine for wallet apps to do so
364 2013-08-22 05:11:26 AusBitBank has joined
365 2013-08-22 05:11:55 <oleganza> btw, I don't like the way bitcoind mixes protocol-specific functions and data with non-protocol-specific stuff.
366 2013-08-22 05:12:05 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I don't have a freeking clue what you're talking about. The validation and relay code handles all valid transactions. The IsStandard stuff is just an initial test, and the node works just file if you comment it out.
367 2013-08-22 05:12:07 <CodeShark> oleganza: I look forward to checking it out
368 2013-08-22 05:12:09 <oleganza> makes it harder to distinguish what's in the protocol.
369 2013-08-22 05:12:46 <CodeShark> I meant Solver()
370 2013-08-22 05:12:51 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
371 2013-08-22 05:13:07 <oleganza> but to me this C++ codebase is like a minefield, i'm not a c++ guru. I'd love to contribute some refactoring, it'd just take too much time for me to check if every little thing is not broken in some obscure way
372 2013-08-22 05:13:24 patcon has joined
373 2013-08-22 05:13:55 <gmaxwell> oleganza: I think we'd be disinterested in taking refactoring commits from a new contributor in any case.
374 2013-08-22 05:14:11 <gmaxwell> oleganza: More contributions would be great, but it would be best to focus on a small area at first.
375 2013-08-22 05:14:13 <CodeShark> there have been several refactoring efforts made - unfortunately, it's not the same thing to refactor code as it is to convince everyone that it works as reliably as the codebase that has already been field tested (even if it's not very clean)
376 2013-08-22 05:14:56 <oleganza> gmaxwell: yeah, it'd just take too much time from me. I'm better doing clearer ObjC impl (CoreBitcoin), learn how it works and maybe then I can contribute something to c++ source.
377 2013-08-22 05:15:24 <oleganza> (I'd personally prefer to have a C library version)
378 2013-08-22 05:15:29 <gmaxwell> Thats probably the last thing the world needsâ yet another bound to be incorrect implementation of the node software.
379 2013-08-22 05:15:53 <gmaxwell> Esp in a niche language thats only used heavily on one (and a half) platform.
380 2013-08-22 05:15:59 <gavinandresen> you're too cynical, gmaxwell.
381 2013-08-22 05:16:09 <oleganza> well, i myself simply cannot work with bitcoind codebase. I need C or ObjC one.
382 2013-08-22 05:16:22 <gavinandresen> If there are twenty-six of them, chances of one of them being correct might be greater
383 2013-08-22 05:16:38 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: probably, but so far I have not seen an alternative implementation which isn't a danger to it users.
384 2013-08-22 05:16:42 <jgarzik> oleganza, git://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin.git
385 2013-08-22 05:16:44 <gmaxwell> er, its.
386 2013-08-22 05:16:47 <jgarzik> oleganza, C
387 2013-08-22 05:16:52 <gavinandresen> (might also be less, if 26 reimplementations means fewer people looking at each one...)
388 2013-08-22 05:17:06 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Indeed. :(
389 2013-08-22 05:17:11 paracyst has quit ()
390 2013-08-22 05:17:13 <jgarzik> oleganza, that is the URL for "libccoin", a C bitcoin implementation, whose basics do work on big endian and little endian
391 2013-08-22 05:17:36 <gmaxwell> I was hoping that jeff's work would gather a bigger community around it hacking on it. Having a few big alternatives would be fantastic.
392 2013-08-22 05:17:54 <oleganza> jgarzik: thanks for picocoin, will check it out
393 2013-08-22 05:17:57 <gmaxwell> Having a large number of one person "learn bitcoin" projects is disappointing.
394 2013-08-22 05:18:03 <oleganza> libccoin afaik is very incomplete
395 2013-08-22 05:18:36 <oleganza> gmaxwell: well, what you'd recommend me doing if I want a neat wallet app with specific new features?
396 2013-08-22 05:18:41 <jgarzik> oleganza, it can fully verify a block chain
397 2013-08-22 05:18:50 <CodeShark> I think having a large number of one person "learn bitcoin" projects is wonderful
398 2013-08-22 05:18:51 <jgarzik> oleganza, that's not what I would call "incomplete"
399 2013-08-22 05:19:04 <oleganza> jgarzik: wow, i guess i looked in the wrong place then
400 2013-08-22 05:19:14 <gmaxwell> oleganza: use GCJ to compile bitcoinj or work from jgarzik's codebase.
401 2013-08-22 05:19:30 <CodeShark> or write your own and learn something profound :)
402 2013-08-22 05:19:45 <jgarzik> oleganza, libccoin also passes most of the bitcoind test vector data
403 2013-08-22 05:19:49 <CodeShark> the knowledge you'll derive from writing your own implementation will make you a much better engineer regardless of what you apply yourself to later on
404 2013-08-22 05:20:02 <gavinandresen> ⦠or be a complete lunatic and work on your own implementation and your own alt-chainâ¦.
405 2013-08-22 05:20:03 <jgarzik> far beyond any other project besides bitcoind or bitsofproof or bitcoinj
406 2013-08-22 05:20:03 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I should clarify. If they're labled as "learn bitcoin" thats great. I've yet to see one that does that. They advertise themselves mostly as the next coming of bitcoin.
407 2013-08-22 05:20:03 <oleganza> CodeShark: i noticed that already :-)
408 2013-08-22 05:20:30 stingsay` is now known as stingray`
409 2013-08-22 05:20:35 <oleganza> bitcoin-ruby is one that does things quite differently from bitcoind
410 2013-08-22 05:20:35 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: (presumably if they're really just learning projects I never see them)
411 2013-08-22 05:20:52 <oleganza> and yet it works for guys very well (with occasional small, but fixable bugs)
412 2013-08-22 05:20:55 iddo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
413 2013-08-22 05:21:08 <oleganza> CoreBitcoin does things much closer to how bitcoind works
414 2013-08-22 05:21:13 <gmaxwell> oleganza: yes, and got forked a couple weeks ago, disrupting its big commercial users service.
415 2013-08-22 05:21:16 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
416 2013-08-22 05:21:18 <oleganza> e.g. stack contains the same bits for bignums
417 2013-08-22 05:21:34 <oleganza> bitcoin-ruby has ruby native data types on stack
418 2013-08-22 05:21:43 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2922 umm....
419 2013-08-22 05:22:01 <warren> he wants this committed to 0.8.4, but he's confused.
420 2013-08-22 05:22:11 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: the entire state of affairs in bitcoin app development is rather amateurish generally at present, I'm sorry to say
421 2013-08-22 05:22:26 <CodeShark> the vast majority of services implemented are written rather poorly
422 2013-08-22 05:22:59 freewil has joined
423 2013-08-22 05:23:23 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no worries, I'll just go implement a bitcoin node in spark-ada and everything will be great!
424 2013-08-22 05:23:58 <CodeShark> if your objective is to become a better engineer or learn ada or something like that, it might be just the vehicle to accomplishing your objective
425 2013-08-22 05:24:07 <CodeShark> if your objective is to run a secure business, it might not be
426 2013-08-22 05:24:23 <oleganza> imagine if the web was still running on mosaic and original NeXTStep WWW browser.
427 2013-08-22 05:24:47 <oleganza> Bitcoin requires bug-to-bug compatibility, but i don't see if it's impossible to have in several implementations
428 2013-08-22 05:25:00 <CodeShark> in any field related to computer security there's a LOT to be said for using implementations that have been tried and tested in the field
429 2013-08-22 05:25:01 <gmaxwell> oleganza: This is not a good comparison. The web is not a signal gigantic bit exact distributed algorithim.
430 2013-08-22 05:25:05 <oleganza> we just need to accurately decipher the spec from bitcoind code.
431 2013-08-22 05:25:12 <oleganza> which i have to do in objc impl.
432 2013-08-22 05:25:35 <gmaxwell> oh sure, it's possible to have multiple implementations. No 'decipher the spec' is not sufficient (or, I suppose necessary)
433 2013-08-22 05:25:39 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
434 2013-08-22 05:25:52 reneg has joined
435 2013-08-22 05:25:52 <CodeShark> but just because you are extremely conservative in adopting new approaches in your actual business deployments doesn't mean you need to be that conservative in your internal R&D
436 2013-08-22 05:26:00 <gmaxwell> oleganza: you can have all the spec you want, but it's just dead paper sitting on a desk. If nodes do something different then thats what you have to deal with.
437 2013-08-22 05:26:14 <oleganza> gmaxwell: that's why i said "decipher"
438 2013-08-22 05:26:33 <oleganza> i'm not implying having a scripture that everyone is checking with
439 2013-08-22 05:27:19 patcon has joined
440 2013-08-22 05:27:29 wei_ has joined
441 2013-08-22 05:27:35 <oleganza> doing own impl makes a tradeoff: you have your own, easy to modify and use code (in your platform/app), but you may have occasional incompatibilities.
442 2013-08-22 05:28:00 <oleganza> if you deal with those quickly and not make yourself lose big bucks during downtime, then what's the problem?
443 2013-08-22 05:28:23 <gmaxwell> assuming it doesn't get you robbed and its just you using it... no biggie, indeed.
444 2013-08-22 05:28:41 <gmaxwell> though simple consensus failures can lead to theft too.
445 2013-08-22 05:28:47 <oleganza> e.g. if you have a shop that does need to react in seconds to a confirmed payment, then you can take time to have 1-2 hours fixing stuff
446 2013-08-22 05:29:19 <oleganza> once a year
447 2013-08-22 05:30:01 saivann has quit ()
448 2013-08-22 05:30:07 <oleganza> or even if someone doublespends you - software bugs happen all the time in other places and ppl lose some time/money on them too. It's all accounted for
449 2013-08-22 05:30:41 <gmaxwell> e.g. find a bug in bitcoin ruby, hack a single large pool to get 20% mining power. fork bitcoin ruby, mine 6 blocks blocks... depositing 1000 conflicted btc to the big entity using it, then withdraw. 1000 BTC profit, assuming they don't notice they're on a fork for 6 hours.
450 2013-08-22 05:31:13 <oleganza> same could be said about bitcoind
451 2013-08-22 05:31:25 <oleganza> find a bug in bitcoind, profit.
452 2013-08-22 05:31:40 <oleganza> well, no. I see your point
453 2013-08-22 05:32:03 <gmaxwell> Right. Certantly, software that deals with irreversable money is risky in general.
454 2013-08-22 05:32:06 <oleganza> anyway, you'd have to hack a pool
455 2013-08-22 05:32:11 <gmaxwell> But as a consensus system bitcoin has special risks.
456 2013-08-22 05:32:12 <oleganza> or buy yourself some a sic factory
457 2013-08-22 05:32:38 <gmaxwell> oleganza: well, you'd need to do that if you need six confirmations in a small amount of time. Though you can also buy hashpower directly.
458 2013-08-22 05:32:40 <CodeShark> anytime you deploy a new piece of code that has not been throughly field tested upon which large sums of money depend you're taking a potential risk
459 2013-08-22 05:32:57 <gmaxwell> Though I think you can only buy about 10TH at the drop of a hat right now.
460 2013-08-22 05:33:04 <CodeShark> so it comes down to risk/benefit analysis - I think you're too pessimistic in thinking that there don't exist actually competent people out there gmaxwell and that everyone is a noob
461 2013-08-22 05:33:19 <oleganza> here's an idea: monitor for network-wide forks by not throwing away blocks with good PoW, but invalid contents.
462 2013-08-22 05:33:29 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I think we have an existance proof that many people are noobs.
463 2013-08-22 05:33:36 <oleganza> so each node can check if there is something going on which it does not accept
464 2013-08-22 05:33:39 <oleganza> and warns the user
465 2013-08-22 05:33:40 <CodeShark> many people ARE noobs - that doesn't mean they all are
466 2013-08-22 05:33:59 <oleganza> so e.g. hacked pool can notice there is a lot of POW going on around them
467 2013-08-22 05:34:21 <oleganza> or like with march fork. people didn't notice this for 2 or 3 hours.
468 2013-08-22 05:34:24 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
469 2013-08-22 05:34:37 <gmaxwell> oleganza: it was noticed instantly, what are you talking about?
470 2013-08-22 05:34:55 ericmuyser has joined
471 2013-08-22 05:34:59 <oleganza> my fault, I though it was accidentally noticed a bit later.
472 2013-08-22 05:35:12 <oleganza> ok, never mind. Then we are fine.
473 2013-08-22 05:35:29 <oleganza> so when some 20% of hash power get forked, everyone will notice, right?
474 2013-08-22 05:35:36 <gmaxwell> oleganza: doesn't actually help, since you don't publish them to the whole network.
475 2013-08-22 05:36:00 <gmaxwell> oleganza: no, they could just be on an unlucky run or have some other boring glitch.
476 2013-08-22 05:36:13 malaimo has joined
477 2013-08-22 05:36:34 <gmaxwell> the victim might notice if they have code to detect the forks and do something about them... but that code ends up inevitably untested since it's not testable on the mainnet.
478 2013-08-22 05:36:46 <gmaxwell> (go count the number of services that have a testnet versionâ¦)
479 2013-08-22 05:37:24 <oleganza> well, your plan does not *only* include a need for a bug in alt implementation. It also requires hacking a pool (which would be profitable already without any alt impl. hacks)
480 2013-08-22 05:38:10 <oleganza> of course, a business X can use alt impl, but all pools using some other impl or bitcoind
481 2013-08-22 05:38:25 <gmaxwell> oleganza: I gave that as an example, as I mentioned you can just buy hashpower on demand too. Though perhaps not enough if the victim would notice within 6 hours.
482 2013-08-22 05:38:38 atweiden has joined
483 2013-08-22 05:38:58 <gmaxwell> and, if a pool is using the alt impl too then you don't need the hacking, you just fork a pool too.
484 2013-08-22 05:39:36 <gmaxwell> you also don't need to outright hack the pool, getting control of its network connectivity would be sufficient to get it to mine a fork for you.
485 2013-08-22 05:39:54 <oleganza> i mean to say, there is no good estimate why alt impl should totally suck and be totally unprofitable
486 2013-08-22 05:40:01 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: btw, refactored and added listbannednodes: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2906
487 2013-08-22 05:40:28 <oleganza> you'd have to have multi-factor attacks. Attack a network connectivity, or invest in hashpower, or hack a pool
488 2013-08-22 05:41:06 <gmaxwell> oleganza: yes, most high value attacks are multistep, just like most major industrial accidents.
489 2013-08-22 05:41:07 <oleganza> all of this moves risk well under 1% where it can be insured against.
490 2013-08-22 05:41:17 <oleganza> like bank robberies
491 2013-08-22 05:42:14 <oleganza> e.g. if an alt impl works 99,9% of the time, you simply make sure you don't lose >$N during downtime or disparity + extra sanity checks like watching other blocks around
492 2013-08-22 05:42:28 <oleganza> and insure against else for a premium.
493 2013-08-22 05:42:30 <oleganza> done
494 2013-08-22 05:42:35 <gmaxwell> bank robberies aren't just insured against, there is a littany of practices and accomidations that insurers require. I wouldn't be surprised to see an insurer require that a service not use a minority node implementation unless at least firewalled by popular ones from the network.
495 2013-08-22 05:42:51 <oleganza> why not
496 2013-08-22 05:43:06 <CodeShark> the weakest link in most bitcoin business practices is probably not the bitcoin software :p
497 2013-08-22 05:43:17 paybitcoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
498 2013-08-22 05:43:29 <CodeShark> it's other policies that are far more general
499 2013-08-22 05:43:36 <gmaxwell> oleganza: Attacks are not randomly distributed either, A button that loses you 1 btc every time someone presses it but only gets pressed one in a million times, will rapidly find itself pressed a million times a second.
500 2013-08-22 05:43:38 <Krellan> gmaxwell: I finally got around to adding another field to getpeerinfo that contains the string from CNode::addrLocal
501 2013-08-22 05:43:45 <oleganza> but it does not reject the practicality of having more studied bitcoin "spec" and/or more platform-friendly API/implementation
502 2013-08-22 05:44:07 <gmaxwell> Krellan: woot.
503 2013-08-22 05:44:46 <gmaxwell> Krellan: wheres the pull request? :)
504 2013-08-22 05:44:47 <Krellan> Interestingly, addrLocal is not populated immediately, it seems to take a while to get filled in. CAddress of it just gives "[::]:0".
505 2013-08-22 05:45:08 <Krellan> a few seconds go by, and then it gets filled in. It seems filled in only under certain conditions in the exchange of the version message.
506 2013-08-22 05:45:22 paybitcoin has joined
507 2013-08-22 05:45:24 <oleganza> anyway, if an alt implementation gives my business idea a place for efficient growth and there are people accepting the possible risk, we all increase net wealth.
508 2013-08-22 05:45:55 <CodeShark> I'm all for it, oleganza
509 2013-08-22 05:46:00 <oleganza> if it was easy and nice to build on bitcoind, i'd do it.
510 2013-08-22 05:46:03 <CodeShark> I'd be glad to help you out in any way I can :)
511 2013-08-22 05:46:07 <oleganza> but it's not, at least, not for me.
512 2013-08-22 05:46:40 <Krellan> and I don't think the implementation that fills in CNode::addrLocal is right: among other things, I have a node right now connected to my bitcoind that has an IPv6 addr but an IPv4 addrLocal!
513 2013-08-22 05:46:45 <oleganza> but you are making fair warnings, gmaxwell.
514 2013-08-22 05:47:03 <gmaxwell> oleganza: everything you've talked about doesn't need a node implementation, it just needs a wallet/client implementation, as far as I can tell.
515 2013-08-22 05:47:09 <oleganza> e.g. miner would lose a lot of money on a small fork if they use alt impl.
516 2013-08-22 05:47:18 <gmaxwell> oleganza: so perhaps you should do that instead if thats all you actually need.
517 2013-08-22 05:47:26 <oleganza> i myself need only wallet for now
518 2013-08-22 05:47:40 <oleganza> but i want to be able to read everything
519 2013-08-22 05:48:08 <Krellan> At least now it's revealed, which is an improvement. Will make pull request now. I named the field "peerlocal" to avoid breaking scripts that grep for addr.
520 2013-08-22 05:48:17 <oleganza> i don't think i should censor myself by not exposing "dangerous" full-node capabilities.
521 2013-08-22 05:48:27 <oleganza> to the poor little world
522 2013-08-22 05:48:50 <CodeShark> yeah, seriously - if someone stabs themselves with a knife do you blame the knife manufacturer?
523 2013-08-22 05:49:36 <CodeShark> we know we're dealing with potentially dangerous stuff - especially if we're handling large amounts of money
524 2013-08-22 05:50:07 <gmaxwell> You need a letter opener, but instead you build an industrial paper cutter, which is a harder task to get right and has more risk of injury if you get it wrongâ¦
525 2013-08-22 05:50:37 <CodeShark> on the flipside, you might become a truly great industrial paper cutter manufactorer
526 2013-08-22 05:50:45 <CodeShark> *manufacturer
527 2013-08-22 05:50:49 <gmaxwell> and because you only really needed the letter opener, perhaps you don't put in the effort to make a really good industrail paper cutter. In any case, I'm not your boss. So you don't have to satisify me.
528 2013-08-22 05:51:41 <CodeShark> the only way to truly understand at the deepest level how bitcoin works is to write your own implementation, IMHO - or to at least have had sufficient experience developing similar systems so you know how you would do it if you had to
529 2013-08-22 05:51:48 <CodeShark> and this in itself is a worthy goal, IMHO
530 2013-08-22 05:52:08 <oleganza> CodeShark: learning is always good
531 2013-08-22 05:52:19 <CodeShark> if you can also make some bucks doing it, even better :)
532 2013-08-22 05:53:23 <CodeShark> I think aspiring developers should be encouraged to write their own implementations - that does NOT mean I would recommend businesses use them without having thoroughly reviewed and tested them
533 2013-08-22 05:53:43 <CodeShark> and most of them will surely be crap
534 2013-08-22 05:54:09 <gmaxwell> I have no opinion on what people do to learn, sounds fine to me.
535 2013-08-22 05:54:30 <gmaxwell> All my concerns arise when the software has effects on third parties. (using it for a major business or suggesting other people use it)
536 2013-08-22 05:55:22 <CodeShark> if you run a business and you decide to use some untested noobware and you lose money it's your damn fault
537 2013-08-22 05:55:34 <CodeShark> not the developer'
538 2013-08-22 05:55:46 <CodeShark> unless the developer missold it
539 2013-08-22 05:55:49 <gmaxwell> Depends on how the developer promoted it.
540 2013-08-22 05:55:51 <gmaxwell> Right.
541 2013-08-22 05:56:24 <oleganza> well, it's fraud if you claim your software is perfect and it turns out not to be so
542 2013-08-22 05:57:17 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Here you go https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2923
543 2013-08-22 05:57:44 <phantomcircuit> oleganza, every EULA i have ever seen contains a generic disclaimer that the software is not fit for purpose
544 2013-08-22 05:57:46 <phantomcircuit> any purpose
545 2013-08-22 06:02:08 <CodeShark> I sure as hell put that on top of every piece of code I publish :)
546 2013-08-22 06:02:35 swulf-- has joined
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548 2013-08-22 06:03:28 <Krellan> One nice thing about adding the readout for addrLocal is that it now shows whether a client has completed their version exchange yet or not. Eventually all get filled in.
549 2013-08-22 06:04:08 ivan\ has joined
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561 2013-08-22 06:16:18 <atweiden> gmaxwell: about coinjoin
562 2013-08-22 06:16:31 <atweiden> thoughts on nightweb? https://nightweb.net/
563 2013-08-22 06:16:47 <atweiden> basically i2p + bittorrent
564 2013-08-22 06:17:18 Cory has joined
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574 2013-08-22 06:51:38 <oleganza> i think we should establish a committee that decides which software is safe to use and where. Then, we'll tell people to consult with that committee before using the software. Otherwise there's no way to ensure quality. Since the whole society will benefit from having such a quality check, we should force those who object to comply. For everyone's good.
575 2013-08-22 06:54:27 wizkid057 has joined
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582 2013-08-22 07:00:20 <tgs3> oleganza: sounds like job for EU beurocrafascists
583 2013-08-22 07:00:26 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
584 2013-08-22 07:00:27 <tgs3> oleganza: and USA police could enforce it
585 2013-08-22 07:00:28 <oleganza> exactly
586 2013-08-22 07:00:37 <oleganza> i think they should meet together.
587 2013-08-22 07:00:40 <oleganza> oh, wait...
588 2013-08-22 07:01:02 <tgs3> didn't they meet at the ACTA-SOPA and Snowden-disk-smashing case
589 2013-08-22 07:01:39 <oleganza> my irony is spread to thin i guess.
590 2013-08-22 07:01:45 <oleganza> *too
591 2013-08-22 07:02:07 paybitcoin has joined
592 2013-08-22 07:02:45 <oleganza> i think the argument "the world does not need yet another implementation" is not consistent with suggestion to "work from jgarzik's codebase."
593 2013-08-22 07:02:50 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
594 2013-08-22 07:03:05 <k9quaint> I think we should establish a committee determine which people should be on the committee to decide which software is safe
595 2013-08-22 07:03:40 <oleganza> either we should all throw resources into The One Kosher Implementation, or there is no reason to discourage more folks throwing in their impls
596 2013-08-22 07:04:06 <oleganza> k9quaint: exactly
597 2013-08-22 07:04:54 <k9quaint> one question
598 2013-08-22 07:05:11 <k9quaint> can alternate personalities also sit on the committee?
599 2013-08-22 07:05:25 <oleganza> NO
600 2013-08-22 07:05:28 <oleganza> only kosher ones
601 2013-08-22 07:05:31 <gmaxwell> oleganza: No need to be whiny, â you said you needed a C callable implementation, I suggested one. Fewer, better tested, implementations are less risky than more less tested onesâ which is just the case.
602 2013-08-22 07:05:53 <oleganza> your suggestion is good
603 2013-08-22 07:05:57 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: do you want to be on the committee to form the committee?
604 2013-08-22 07:06:04 <oleganza> i just mean, it does not work well with your previous argument
605 2013-08-22 07:06:51 <oleganza> (sorry, I'm not being whiny, it's just irony to find some "world needs X" arguments on bitcoin forum)
606 2013-08-22 07:06:55 <gmaxwell> oleganza: if you think that, the I don't believe you understood my argument.
607 2013-08-22 07:07:19 <gmaxwell> But I see no need to argue.
608 2013-08-22 07:07:22 patcon_ has joined
609 2013-08-22 07:07:57 <oleganza> if your argument is picocoin is better tested than my code - i agree; and if it's safer to use for businesses - agree too
610 2013-08-22 07:08:33 <oleganza> i just want to build my stuff too because it's convenient for me and some people using objc.
611 2013-08-22 07:08:33 <gmaxwell> oleganza: I don't think picocoin is good yet, in fact. But with you also working with it then perhaps someday it will be good.
612 2013-08-22 07:08:43 leakybuckit has joined
613 2013-08-22 07:09:09 <gmaxwell> And thats less likly for something written in objc, due to not being trivially C callable.
614 2013-08-22 07:09:11 <k9quaint> I wish someone would come up with a coin that didn't end in coin
615 2013-08-22 07:09:13 <oleganza> what I'm doing right now is actually a thorogh code review of bitcoind, bitcoin-ruby and bitcoinjs
616 2013-08-22 07:09:21 <oleganza> and i find some interesting differences in them.
617 2013-08-22 07:09:26 <oleganza> some of them are disturbing
618 2013-08-22 07:09:38 <k9quaint> everything written in javascript is disturbing
619 2013-08-22 07:09:48 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
620 2013-08-22 07:10:18 <oleganza> basically, before writing a feature in objc, I check all its edge cases in these implementations.
621 2013-08-22 07:10:49 <oleganza> e.g. bitcoinjs still has this bug with "return 1;" from SignatureHash function
622 2013-08-22 07:11:12 <oleganza> it was recently discovered and fixed in bitcoin-ruby
623 2013-08-22 07:11:24 <gmaxwell> I would drop bitcoinjs from your comparison point and replace it with bitcoinj unless your goal is to also report bugs in bitcoinjs.
624 2013-08-22 07:12:10 <oleganza> yeah, bitcoinj i haven't checked much
625 2013-08-22 07:12:25 <gmaxwell> oleganza: it's not a newly known behavior and it's even one tested by the bitcoinblock tester. Any implemention that fails that ... shouldn't be used by anyone.
626 2013-08-22 07:12:47 <gmaxwell> :(
627 2013-08-22 07:13:18 robocoin_ has quit (Quit: .)
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635 2013-08-22 07:16:38 <oleganza> gmaxwell: my suggestion is that implementations simply can by fixed. Not condemned.
636 2013-08-22 07:16:39 coeus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
637 2013-08-22 07:16:50 <oleganza> bitcoin-ruby was forked, then fixed. Life goes on, no one lost a cent.
638 2013-08-22 07:17:00 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
639 2013-08-22 07:17:02 OPrime has joined
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641 2013-08-22 07:17:07 <oleganza> if it was unprofitable for coinbase to use bitcoin-ruby, they'd switch to bitcoind already
642 2013-08-22 07:17:20 robocoin has joined
643 2013-08-22 07:17:32 <oleganza> but it actually provides them some production value. For them it's easier to parse/navigate transactions using bitcoin-ruby.
644 2013-08-22 07:17:48 <oleganza> they take their risks and it works for them
645 2013-08-22 07:18:04 <oleganza> just like no one has to use bitcoin at all. You can stick to paypal if it's good for you.
646 2013-08-22 07:18:05 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty comfortorable condemning software being used to handle millions of dollars in value when it hasn't even been tested with the conformance tests.
647 2013-08-22 07:18:27 <gmaxwell> I think thats professional negligence, but maybe I'm old fashioned.
648 2013-08-22 07:18:38 Subo1977_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
649 2013-08-22 07:18:49 <oleganza> do you condemn software or people using/writing software? I cannot see how one can condemn bits
650 2013-08-22 07:18:58 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
651 2013-08-22 07:19:08 <oleganza> ah, ok.
652 2013-08-22 07:19:30 Eiii has quit ()
653 2013-08-22 07:19:51 <warren> github is dead
654 2013-08-22 07:19:54 <oleganza> "professional negligence" means I'm not acting responsibly towards society if I do another implementation and promote it without enough testing.
655 2013-08-22 07:19:58 <oleganza> ?
656 2013-08-22 07:20:01 <jgarzik> warren, wfm
657 2013-08-22 07:20:09 <gmaxwell> it's all unicorns for me.
658 2013-08-22 07:20:16 * jgarzik just pushed his latest NIH project out to github, even!
659 2013-08-22 07:20:28 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2906 you don't see an amusing 500 error here?
660 2013-08-22 07:20:33 <oleganza> what do you mean by professional negligence then?
661 2013-08-22 07:20:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: your project is now unicorns.
662 2013-08-22 07:20:47 <k9quaint> github is 500 for me too
663 2013-08-22 07:20:54 <warren> gmaxwell: what's up with the sudden unicorn explosion
664 2013-08-22 07:21:25 <gmaxwell> warren: I don't know but I'm trying to come up with a synonym of 'fail' that rhymes with unicorn but nothing rhymes with unicorn.
665 2013-08-22 07:21:31 <jgarzik> hum
666 2013-08-22 07:21:42 <jgarzik> in the span of a few seconds, it died
667 2013-08-22 07:21:42 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
668 2013-08-22 07:21:53 Lolcust has joined
669 2013-08-22 07:21:58 <gmaxwell> now I am getting unhappy squid cat things.
670 2013-08-22 07:21:58 <jgarzik> right when my glorious key/value database appeared
671 2013-08-22 07:22:05 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: capricorn
672 2013-08-22 07:22:09 <warren> gmaxwell: we failed to make the "DP" moniker stick. try again with unicorn?
673 2013-08-22 07:22:13 <justusranvier> If you're worried about negligent software, why is there a Windows port for Bitcoin?
674 2013-08-22 07:22:17 <petertodd> Strange, oh the frontpage of github I notice even gravity died. Normally that stuff is pretty reliable.
675 2013-08-22 07:22:33 <jgarzik> petertodd, the git:// protocol died too
676 2013-08-22 07:22:38 <jgarzik> not just web
677 2013-08-22 07:22:57 <k9quaint> I am beginning to think there may be something wrong with Git
678 2013-08-22 07:22:59 <jgarzik> I've been meaning to make a remote mirror of all my stuff
679 2013-08-22 07:23:03 <gmaxwell> Good thing we use a DVCS so we don't have to worry about single points of failure
680 2013-08-22 07:23:12 <jgarzik> Linus pushes to 2-3 dfferent remote sites, for each push
681 2013-08-22 07:23:21 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: you know you want to condemn github :P
682 2013-08-22 07:23:28 <CodeShark> I always keep at least 2-3 mirrors of EVERYTHING
683 2013-08-22 07:23:28 <petertodd> I'll write you guys a tool that does git-over-blockchain.
684 2013-08-22 07:23:33 Subo1977 has joined
685 2013-08-22 07:23:33 * gmaxwell stabs
686 2013-08-22 07:23:51 coeus has joined
687 2013-08-22 07:23:52 * jgarzik wonders if anybody mirrors github
688 2013-08-22 07:23:58 <jgarzik> or if mirrors are passe
689 2013-08-22 07:24:00 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: do you enunciate your condemnations by slamming your mouse onto your desk?
690 2013-08-22 07:24:10 <CodeShark> I mirror everything I put on github on at least two of my own servers
691 2013-08-22 07:24:10 <warren> I think I don't have the pull requests that I was looking at fetched yet.
692 2013-08-22 07:24:14 <gmaxwell> mouse? who uses a mouse?
693 2013-08-22 07:24:19 <warren> CodeShark: you wrote the RPC ban thing?
694 2013-08-22 07:24:32 <k9quaint> jgarzik: I write code in palindrome, no mirrors necessary
695 2013-08-22 07:24:37 * CodeShark maybe...
696 2013-08-22 07:24:52 <Keefe> bitcointalk.org is having trouble too. related maybe?
697 2013-08-22 07:25:11 <gmaxwell> It was reported that the whole internet is currently on fire with ddos.
698 2013-08-22 07:25:15 <CodeShark> lol
699 2013-08-22 07:25:21 <k9quaint> gox is up, so it can't be serious
700 2013-08-22 07:25:25 <CodeShark> haha
701 2013-08-22 07:25:39 <SomeoneWeird> lol
702 2013-08-22 07:25:41 <Keefe> who cares about gox anymore :p
703 2013-08-22 07:25:44 <k9quaint> someone ping floods an iphone and gox is down
704 2013-08-22 07:26:04 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
705 2013-08-22 07:26:27 <SomeoneWeird> hah
706 2013-08-22 07:26:52 reneg has joined
707 2013-08-22 07:27:07 <jgarzik> if CloudFlare has a hiccup, bitcoin is down
708 2013-08-22 07:27:38 viperhr has joined
709 2013-08-22 07:28:16 BlackPrapor has joined
710 2013-08-22 07:28:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: which is very scarry... esp since all these sites turn over their ssl certs to cloudflare.
711 2013-08-22 07:28:27 <k9quaint> shit, bug tracking stuff still works *sigh*
712 2013-08-22 07:30:48 rawdr has joined
713 2013-08-22 07:33:18 <jgarzik> vaguely tempted to sell Avalon #1, The World's First ASIC Miner
714 2013-08-22 07:33:30 <jgarzik> would make a nice museum piece
715 2013-08-22 07:34:32 <petertodd> jgarzik: and would ship on time
716 2013-08-22 07:34:57 <jgarzik> that too
717 2013-08-22 07:35:24 <phantomcircuit> lollll
718 2013-08-22 07:36:06 <gmaxwell> "first asic miner to have shipped on time .. twice!"
719 2013-08-22 07:36:52 <petertodd> of course, being someone with a BFL pre-order, I'll have to go to the forums and complain loudly that everyone else should cancel theirs until my one gets bumped up and ships early
720 2013-08-22 07:37:13 <gmaxwell> I found out that avalon actually intentionally delayed my shippment because they thought I sold them. Dweebs.
721 2013-08-22 07:37:19 <k9quaint> did someone say BFL pre-order?
722 2013-08-22 07:37:25 * k9quaint stares at gmaxwell
723 2013-08-22 07:37:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: good job
724 2013-08-22 07:38:37 <gmaxwell> (they thought I sold them because I changed the delivery address and delivery name (to my girlfriends, a requirement of shipping them to her office... because I was moving and didn't know where I'd be living by the time they shipped))
725 2013-08-22 07:38:54 <petertodd> figures
726 2013-08-22 07:39:25 <petertodd> your mom can now remind you that you should have married the girl and she should have changed her name, obviously
727 2013-08-22 07:39:39 <k9quaint> did she dump you right after the rigs arrived?
728 2013-08-22 07:39:45 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: hahahaha No.
729 2013-08-22 07:40:08 <petertodd> k9quaint: better to do the long-con there - can't get alimony if you're just a gf
730 2013-08-22 07:40:25 <gmaxwell> god knows, in california you probably can.
731 2013-08-22 07:40:27 <jgarzik> Yifu has tons of stories about inboxes full of whining miners ;p
732 2013-08-22 07:40:40 <petertodd> k9quaint: although in Canada in BC the laws are now so nutty that it's probably possible for your samesex roommate to get alimony...
733 2013-08-22 07:40:41 <jgarzik> all of whom want to pay X more to get bumped up in the queue, and whatnot
734 2013-08-22 07:40:46 <k9quaint> petertodd: you mean to say someone could get alimony out of gmaxwell? in what form pray tell?
735 2013-08-22 07:40:58 <petertodd> k9quaint: if they were smart, ASICs
736 2013-08-22 07:41:45 <k9quaint> hehe, Yifu's inbox is probably one of the more interesting ones on the planet
737 2013-08-22 07:41:50 <gmaxwell> I've lived 1/3 of my life with this person, I don't expect anything to change anytime soon.
738 2013-08-22 07:41:59 BW^- has joined
739 2013-08-22 07:42:11 <k9quaint> wow, that would have been an awesome long con
740 2013-08-22 07:42:21 <petertodd> I've lived 3/3 or my life with this person, I don't expect anything to change anytime soon.
741 2013-08-22 07:42:24 * petertodd looks in mirror
742 2013-08-22 07:42:37 <petertodd> k9quaint: mine would be an even more awesome long con
743 2013-08-22 07:43:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you definitely cant get alimony as a gf... but you can probably get rent control
744 2013-08-22 07:43:18 * jgarzik thinks that the petertodd identity is a pseudonym.
745 2013-08-22 07:43:25 <jgarzik> nobody cares that much about PGP signatures
746 2013-08-22 07:43:28 <jgarzik> in real life
747 2013-08-22 07:43:43 jtimon has joined
748 2013-08-22 07:44:13 jdillon has joined
749 2013-08-22 07:44:19 <k9quaint> but which life is real?
750 2013-08-22 07:44:28 <k9quaint> this could all be just a simulation in some NSA listening post
751 2013-08-22 07:44:40 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: good thing that she pays the rent.
752 2013-08-22 07:44:44 <BW^-> sipa: around?
753 2013-08-22 07:44:52 jdillon has quit (Client Quit)
754 2013-08-22 07:45:05 <petertodd> Gah, stupid #bitcoin-dev rules ruining my joke.
755 2013-08-22 07:45:09 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, quick bump her and demand rent control
756 2013-08-22 07:45:21 <petertodd> "jdillon: you got me there, but that guy I hired for the conference sure was a good actor"
757 2013-08-22 07:45:42 <k9quaint> petertodd: you are a terrible sockpuppet
758 2013-08-22 07:46:16 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: if he is, he's got a fake ID too. But what do I know about canadian IDs.
759 2013-08-22 07:46:20 <petertodd> k9quaint: Yeah, I realized I was dressed all wrong at the conference when I saw luke.
760 2013-08-22 07:46:39 <gmaxwell> petertodd: hey, can canadian passports sign challenge strings?
761 2013-08-22 07:46:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Nope, and since when did I ever show you my ID
762 2013-08-22 07:46:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I thought you did! perhaps not!
763 2013-08-22 07:47:13 egis has joined
764 2013-08-22 07:47:26 <k9quaint> perhaps his doppelganger did
765 2013-08-22 07:47:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm sure I never did - made a point of it with Adam when we exchanged fingerprints that he should verify me by who I am, not my government ID.
766 2013-08-22 07:47:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Pretty sure they can't, but I may be wrong.
767 2013-08-22 07:48:02 <BW^-> guys, in https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/4790f3c823a33fae44b82ef7962372e38b1b0131 for sipa's addrindex, he says "Maintain a salt to perturbate the address index (protection against collisions)."
768 2013-08-22 07:48:08 <BW^-> why on earth would that be of interest to maintain??
769 2013-08-22 07:48:09 <gmaxwell> hm. I signed your pgp key. Did you really talk me into doing that?
770 2013-08-22 07:48:38 dust-otc has joined
771 2013-08-22 07:48:48 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
772 2013-08-22 07:48:49 <gmaxwell> BW^-: Can you phrase your question another way?
773 2013-08-22 07:48:50 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
774 2013-08-22 07:48:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, and Adam too. Maybe you got my ID on the former, but I'm 100% sure Adam didn't.
775 2013-08-22 07:49:14 <BW^-> gmaxwell: well, if you have an address index, then you want the addresses in the index raw, so why would there ever be a need to salt it as to perturbate the index??
776 2013-08-22 07:49:19 moarrr has quit ()
777 2013-08-22 07:49:26 <BW^-> maybe there's something about how the indexing is made that i don't understand
778 2013-08-22 07:49:41 <gmaxwell> BW^-: Because the index is indexed by compact keys. Did you read the code?
779 2013-08-22 07:49:51 <BW^-> gmaxwell: i'm doing in this moment.
780 2013-08-22 07:50:11 <BW^-> gmaxwell: absolutely only for ref now, what is the definition of compact key here?
781 2013-08-22 07:50:21 <gmaxwell> BW^-: doing so significantly reduces the size (IIRC like half). To avoid intentional collission attacks it's perturbed.
782 2013-08-22 07:50:47 <phantomcircuit> BW^-, im going to guess that the underlying data structure is a hash table
783 2013-08-22 07:50:50 <BW^-> gmaxwell: in which case could a collission otherwise happen?
784 2013-08-22 07:50:57 <phantomcircuit> in which case doing that is 100% necessary
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786 2013-08-22 07:51:17 <BW^-> phantomcircuit: aha, a hashtable over/of the compact key
787 2013-08-22 07:52:04 <BW^-> also Q, sipa goes on and describes that "It indexes the use of every >8-byte data push in output script or consumed script - or in case of no such push, the entire script." - i'm reading up on scripts now. just to ge the picture in an overview way, why did he apply this logic here?
788 2013-08-22 07:52:45 <phantomcircuit> he's making it as generic as possible
789 2013-08-22 07:52:46 <gmaxwell> So you can look up those objects too.
790 2013-08-22 07:52:51 <gmaxwell> BW^-: what are you working on?
791 2013-08-22 07:53:08 <phantomcircuit> lol the buttercoin people are hilarious
792 2013-08-22 07:53:13 <phantomcircuit> all talk no bank accounts
793 2013-08-22 07:54:50 <BW^-> gmaxwell: i just want to understand how this index works, as to be able to do lookups like the one in the "Transactions" section here http://blockchain.info/address/1MBHmaw38qGcuuSLGmkoMdTCy3ekBrfBTX
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797 2013-08-22 07:57:47 <Keefe> github and bitcointalk load fine for me now
798 2013-08-22 07:57:50 <gmaxwell> BW^-: It extracts one or more keys from a transaction hashes them into a 64 bit lookup key, and inserts the key and relevant disk position pointer into an index.
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802 2013-08-22 08:01:06 <BW^-> gmaxwell: so what the addrindex patch does, is that for every transaction registered in the blockchain, it extracts every btc address mentioned in it[s script] and makes an index for address -> disk position of the transaction lookups?
803 2013-08-22 08:01:45 <gmaxwell> not just addresses but also arbritary script data.
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805 2013-08-22 08:02:36 <gmaxwell> keep in mind that the underlying bitcoin system (the blockchain) has no concept of addresses at all.
806 2013-08-22 08:03:12 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
807 2013-08-22 08:05:19 <BW^-> gmaxwell: right - i will need to learn how this works out Now. the underlying bitcoin system only has the scripts with its primitives, right?; is there any like mechanistic introduction to how the scripts are made up and how they work out in the bigger picture, that i can read anywhere?
808 2013-08-22 08:06:56 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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810 2013-08-22 08:09:34 <sipa> BW^-: now i am
811 2013-08-22 08:12:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: morning.
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818 2013-08-22 08:26:34 <Krellan> I am thinking of adding support for ping time measurement, like p2pool does
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822 2013-08-22 08:28:16 <gmaxwell> Krellan: p2pool does? where?
823 2013-08-22 08:28:21 <gmaxwell> Krellan: and that would be spiffy.
824 2013-08-22 08:29:21 <gmaxwell> Krellan: we might want to keep a response time in the node objects for use in priortizing peers to keep.
825 2013-08-22 08:29:54 <gmaxwell> (low latency has the nice property of being not possible to fake, at least)
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832 2013-08-22 08:35:22 <Krellan> gmaxwell: http://localhost:9332/pings
833 2013-08-22 08:36:28 <Krellan> can I use a double in the structure returned by getpeerinfo? everything else there is ints/strings and wanted to be sure there wasn't a rule somewhere against it.
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835 2013-08-22 08:37:26 <Krellan> I'm filling in the nonce for ping, keeping start time, adding pong parser to compare nonce, if it matches then that's a good ping, save the time. Show ping time in getpeerinfo.
836 2013-08-22 08:38:11 <Krellan> Going to add RPC command "ping" to force a ping to go out to all peers, to avoid having to wait around for the keepalive to fire.
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838 2013-08-22 08:42:10 <gmaxwell> Krellan: cool, didn't realize that was there.
839 2013-08-22 08:42:56 <gmaxwell> Krellan: there isn't such a rule, but why? you're going to get the time data in the form of an int64, just difference it and keep the results as an integer.
840 2013-08-22 08:42:56 ThomasV has joined
841 2013-08-22 08:43:12 <Krellan> OK good point, shouldn't try to be fancy, it's RPC, not the place for user prettyprinting.
842 2013-08-22 08:44:22 <sipa> Krellan: we should revamp the keepalive/timeout/ping logic altogether, i think
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844 2013-08-22 08:44:46 <sipa> i made a pullreq for that once, though i believe there were some comments and i haven't updated it anymore afterwards
845 2013-08-22 08:44:46 <gmaxwell> yea, even if you print it fancy in the interface, my personal prefernce is to keep the stored data as an int, at least if it started out as one.
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850 2013-08-22 08:54:40 <Krellan> cosmetic thing: kind of looks weird to have conntime be in seconds but pingtime be in microseconds.
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854 2013-08-22 08:57:18 <warren> CodeShark: locking needed on the list banned?
855 2013-08-22 08:57:42 <gavinandresen> I just merged the payment protocol pull request. If your Qt builds break, apt-get install libprotobuf-dev protobuf-compiler
856 2013-08-22 08:58:19 * warren looks for the equivalent in fedora
857 2013-08-22 08:58:28 <warren> CodeShark: oh, I see you already realized it.
858 2013-08-22 08:59:02 <gavinandresen> OSX + MacPorts it is port install protobuf-cpp
859 2013-08-22 08:59:14 <gavinandresen> OSX + HomeBrew it is brew install protobuf
860 2013-08-22 09:00:47 <gmaxwell> Krellan: then make it ms on display.
861 2013-08-22 09:01:01 <gavinandresen> ⦠Windows⦠fetch http://protobuf.googlecode.com/files/protobuf-2.5.0.tar.bz2 ⦠and build it and do the Windows thing so protoc is in your path
862 2013-08-22 09:01:02 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
863 2013-08-22 09:02:29 <warren> gavinandresen: did you update the gitian descriptors for this?
864 2013-08-22 09:05:22 c0rw1n has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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866 2013-08-22 09:08:47 <Krellan> I could rename pingtime to pingms = also thinking of adding pingreq so users can see when a ping request is still outstanding (avoids ambiguously waiting)
867 2013-08-22 09:09:20 patcon has joined
868 2013-08-22 09:10:35 <BW^-> where can I read about the payment protocol and request features?
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873 2013-08-22 09:31:51 <BW^-> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script says "Note that there is a small number of standard script forms that are relayed from node to node; non-standard scripts are accepted if they are in a block, but nodes will not relay them. " .
874 2013-08-22 09:31:52 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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876 2013-08-22 09:32:29 <BW^-> does this mean that those 4-5 standard scripts are the only "templates" allowed, and that one *cannot* specify any script one wants to, because the system won't accept them and propagate them?
877 2013-08-22 09:35:14 <BW^-> what about the payment protocol and payment request features gavin just published, were they discussed anywhere?
878 2013-08-22 09:36:12 <fanquake> BW^- https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2539
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885 2013-08-22 09:44:25 <sipa> BW^-: and BIP 70
886 2013-08-22 09:44:32 <sipa> BW^-: and discussion on the mailinglist
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913 2013-08-22 10:42:26 <gavinandresen> warren: yes, gitian descriptors updated. There is new protobuf-win32.yml gitian descriptor that must be built for the win32 gitian build.
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920 2013-08-22 10:48:04 <Krellan> Actually I like ping time in whole seconds, gives small decimal numbers like 0.30094600, looks very Bitcoin-like :)
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923 2013-08-22 10:49:59 <warren> gavinandresen: ok cool
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933 2013-08-22 10:57:53 <sipa> Krellan: for RPC output, i have no problem with ping time in floating-point seconds
934 2013-08-22 10:58:05 <sipa> internally, i'd rather use milli or microseconds
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938 2013-08-22 11:02:56 <Krellan> sipa: good, that's what it is: internally it's microseconds (int64), output is decimal whole secs
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967 2013-08-22 11:41:38 <Krellan> There, I have ping time support basically working.
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969 2013-08-22 11:42:13 <Krellan> Not ready for pull request just yet, I have to disentangle it from another pull request, sigh. And it needs some error flags that it can show to user. https://github.com/Krellan/bitcoin/commit/fbc91c10d818432070ef8bac56b07707f43ef0b1
970 2013-08-22 11:43:05 <Krellan> Very interesting behavior noted: 1) many nodes simply reply with pong 0 no matter what nonce is sent, and 2) many nodes already send unique nonces, not 0, so there must be other patches floating around that people have applied, since upstream still sends hardcoded 0 for nonce.
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972 2013-08-22 11:43:54 <sipa> Krellan: bitcoinj sends unique nonces afaik
973 2013-08-22 11:44:08 <Krellan> sipa: thanks for the info, that must be it.
974 2013-08-22 11:44:52 <Krellan> Surprised that there would be "broken" nodes out there that send a hardcoded 0 for pong, even when given a nonzero nonce for ping.
975 2013-08-22 11:45:36 <Krellan> gmaxwell: There, got ping time support working, just need to refine it a little before making pull request.
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990 2013-08-22 12:06:03 <BW^-> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script : "Note that there is a small number of standard script forms that are relayed from node to node; non-standard scripts are accepted if they are ina block, but nodes will not relay them. " - what's the point with this?
991 2013-08-22 12:15:16 <BW^-> i mean, can't you use any arbitrary script in a transaction and it will be propagated like any transaction?
992 2013-08-22 12:16:51 enikanorov has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
993 2013-08-22 12:17:22 <sipa> no
994 2013-08-22 12:17:35 <sipa> but it is valid
995 2013-08-22 12:17:42 <sipa> so if you get a miner to accept it, there is no problem
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1000 2013-08-22 12:25:54 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: some non-standard scripts can be used to DoS the network, so nodes ignore them when possible
1001 2013-08-22 12:26:52 <BW^-> sipa: how get it to the miner in the first place?
1002 2013-08-22 12:27:23 <BW^-> luke-jr: aha. what is the definition of standard vs. non-standard script, i mean, is there like a fixed set of scripts in BitcoinD with only the variable/constant content parts replacable, definining what's allowed?
1003 2013-08-22 12:27:57 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: pretty much
1004 2013-08-22 12:28:18 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: Eligius (only?) will accept direct relaying of non-standard transactions it deems "safe"
1005 2013-08-22 12:28:47 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: also, the non-standard restrictions are entirely disabled on testnet, for development of new transaction types
1006 2013-08-22 12:28:57 <Luke-Jr> (which would then be added to bitcoind's whitelist)
1007 2013-08-22 12:31:08 <BW^-> ok
1008 2013-08-22 12:31:41 <BW^-> luke-jr: where in BitcoinD's source is the definition of standard transaction implemented, so i can check? also, is it documented anywhere - so https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script + BIP 11 defines all of them?
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1011 2013-08-22 12:36:08 <Luke-Jr> BW^-: script.cpp
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1017 2013-08-22 12:41:29 <BW^-> luke-jr: which method in script.cpp determines if a script is standard?
1018 2013-08-22 12:42:15 <Luke-Jr> it's named obviously. do your homework. -.-
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1020 2013-08-22 12:42:43 <BW^-> luke-jr: VerifyScript ???
1021 2013-08-22 12:42:45 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1022 2013-08-22 12:42:48 <runeks> Where in the source tree can I find the way the new target is calculated each 2016 blocks?
1023 2013-08-22 12:42:50 <Luke-Jr> IsStandard
1024 2013-08-22 12:43:03 <BW^-> *ah*. thanks.
1025 2013-08-22 12:44:07 <Luke-Jr> runeks: main.cpp, GetNextWorkRequired
1026 2013-08-22 12:45:18 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Thanks!
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1031 2013-08-22 12:52:08 <runeks> Looks like I have the right estimation in my code. As far as I can see new_diff is just (target_block_time / actual_block_time) * old_diff
1032 2013-08-22 12:52:17 <runeks> So that should work barring some floating point imprecisions.
1033 2013-08-22 12:54:17 <sipa> except "difficulty" does not exist at the protocol level
1034 2013-08-22 12:54:37 <sipa> the computation is done in terms of the target hash
1035 2013-08-22 12:54:43 <Luke-Jr> runeks: be careful about the last/first block of the new diff
1036 2013-08-22 12:55:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: meh, two ways to talk about the same number :P
1037 2013-08-22 12:55:13 <sipa> if you only need an approximate solution, multiplying the observed average time factor with the difficulty is perfectly fine
1038 2013-08-22 12:55:26 <runeks> Luke-Jr: First is if block_num % 2016 == 0 right?
1039 2013-08-22 12:55:33 <sipa> i just mean that if you need it exactly, difficulty will not help you; but i don't know the context of the question
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1041 2013-08-22 12:55:57 <Luke-Jr> runeks: I'm not sure enough to say without looking into it :<
1042 2013-08-22 12:56:24 <runeks> sipa: Yes I know that. But for my purposes it's just the estimation used for this: http://runeks.dk/bitcoin/diff.txt
1043 2013-08-22 12:56:36 <runeks> So I figure the precision I lose is acceptable since it's just an estimation anyway.
1044 2013-08-22 12:57:14 <sipa> sure
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1046 2013-08-22 12:57:38 <runeks> Although I'm not sure if Python's float type actually has enough precision for it to be irrelevant.
1047 2013-08-22 12:57:54 <runeks> It's possible. The target is only 32 bits afterall.
1048 2013-08-22 12:58:35 <runeks> But yeah, I guess it ahould en
1049 2013-08-22 12:59:04 <runeks> But yeah, I guess the full target should end in all zeros, so I can only calculate the compact target using the difficulty.
1050 2013-08-22 12:59:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: since target is only a 23-bit precise float anyway, you can get a certain block target from it if you really had to :p
1051 2013-08-22 12:59:57 <Luke-Jr> right, that
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1059 2013-08-22 13:19:07 <jgarzik> mornin'
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1071 2013-08-22 13:40:50 * sipa haz block eruptorz
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1074 2013-08-22 13:44:20 <sipa> ;;genrate 330
1075 2013-08-22 13:44:21 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 330.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 50810339.0483, is 0.00326624764823 BTC per day and 0.00013609365201 BTC per hour.
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1080 2013-08-22 13:58:52 <jeremias> was there a guide about how to copy the block chain data from trusted source?
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1085 2013-08-22 14:02:50 <t7> sipa: are they the little dongle things i heard about on the bitcoin podcast thing?
1086 2013-08-22 14:03:05 <sipa> yes
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1088 2013-08-22 14:05:18 <sipa> they're so useless
1089 2013-08-22 14:05:20 <sipa> and so cute
1090 2013-08-22 14:07:19 <jgarzik> sipa, did you get yours today?
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1099 2013-08-22 14:22:46 <sipa> jgarzik: yes
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1102 2013-08-22 14:23:56 <warren> I'm confused by hte various PR's
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1104 2013-08-22 14:24:15 <warren> involving removing internal miner, getwork, GBT
1105 2013-08-22 14:24:24 <warren> overlapping, one obsoletes another
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1124 2013-08-22 14:53:06 <jgarzik> warren, not overlapping, building upon, AFAICT
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1168 2013-08-22 16:14:10 <Matt_von_Mises> Hello. According to here -> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#getblocks the getblocks message contains a version field but I can't find where this is set anywhere in the bitcoin source code. I don't know what I'm missing but does anyone know where it is?
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1178 2013-08-22 16:44:08 <sipa> ;;diff
1179 2013-08-22 16:44:09 <gribble> 5.081033904827648E7
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1181 2013-08-22 16:46:06 <etotheipi_> sipa: is there a list of gribble commands?
1182 2013-08-22 16:47:22 <sipa> ;;help
1183 2013-08-22 16:47:22 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
1184 2013-08-22 16:48:08 <etotheipi_> !facts
1185 2013-08-22 16:48:12 <gribble> To see a nice sortable web view of all factoids, click here: http://gribble.dreamhosters.com/viewfactoids.php?db=%23bitcoin-dev || To see a list of the most popular factoids, run !rank || To search factoids, run !factoids search <yoursearchterm>
1186 2013-08-22 16:48:14 <TheLordOfTime> ;;list
1187 2013-08-22 16:48:14 <gribble> Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AutoMode, BadWords, BitcoinData, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Debug, Dict, Dunno, Factoids, Filter, Format, GPG, Games, Gatekeeper, Google, Internet, Later, Market, Math, MessageParser, Misc, Network, OTCOrderBook, Owner, Plugin, RSS, RatingSystem, Reply, Scheduler, Seen, Services, Status, String, Time, Topic, URL, Unix, User, (1 more message)
1188 2013-08-22 16:48:21 <TheLordOfTime> there's a lot of commands inside those plugins
1189 2013-08-22 16:48:33 <TheLordOfTime> etotheipi_, what exactly are you looking for in terms of the commands?
1190 2013-08-22 16:48:43 <TheLordOfTime> because nanotube knows the commands more than I do although I could easily find out
1191 2013-08-22 16:48:58 <TheLordOfTime> ;;help diff
1192 2013-08-22 16:48:58 <gribble> (diff takes no arguments) -- Get current difficulty.
1193 2013-08-22 16:49:01 <etotheipi_> TheLordOfTime: nothing in particular... I just realized I see people use it all the time, and have no idea how to use it myself
1194 2013-08-22 16:49:08 <TheLordOfTime> hmmmmm i forget which plugin that's in if any
1195 2013-08-22 16:49:17 <TheLordOfTime> ;;apropos diff
1196 2013-08-22 16:49:17 <gribble> Alias bc,p2pooldiff, Alias tn,diff, BitcoinData blockdiff, BitcoinData diff, BitcoinData diffchange, BitcoinData prevdiff, and BitcoinData prevdiffchange
1197 2013-08-22 16:49:21 <etotheipi_> just curious what wisdom it has for me
1198 2013-08-22 16:49:23 <etotheipi_> :)
1199 2013-08-22 16:49:23 <TheLordOfTime> ahhhhhhhhh THAT plugin
1200 2013-08-22 16:49:29 <sipa> ;;tblb 1200
1201 2013-08-22 16:49:30 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 20 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 2 hours, 2 minutes, and 50 seconds
1202 2013-08-22 16:49:36 <sipa> ^- cool one
1203 2013-08-22 16:49:39 <TheLordOfTime> etotheipi_, i think there's documentation on most used commands somewhere
1204 2013-08-22 16:49:43 <TheLordOfTime> i'll check...
1205 2013-08-22 16:50:00 <TheLordOfTime> etotheipi_, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Gribble
1206 2013-08-22 16:50:06 <TheLordOfTime> No clue what each command does though
1207 2013-08-22 16:50:11 <etotheipi_> man, you guys are too helpful! thanks
1208 2013-08-22 16:50:34 <etotheipi_> ;;halfreward
1209 2013-08-22 16:50:34 <gribble> Estimated time of bitcoin block reward halving: Thu Oct 20 23:50:06 2016 UTC | Time remaining: 3 years, 8 weeks, 4 days, 7 hours, and 0 seconds.
1210 2013-08-22 16:50:47 <etotheipi_> ;;bc,xau
1211 2013-08-22 16:50:48 <gribble> 1 XAU = 1373.100000000000 USD = 11.2549189553 BTC
1212 2013-08-22 16:51:13 <nanotube> y'all are also welcome to play with it in pm or in #gribble, to avoid junking up -dev. :)
1213 2013-08-22 16:51:25 <etotheipi_> heh, I was just about to apologize for spamming the dev list
1214 2013-08-22 16:51:39 <etotheipi_> err.. dev channel
1215 2013-08-22 16:51:43 <nanotube> heh
1216 2013-08-22 16:52:01 <TheLordOfTime> :P
1217 2013-08-22 16:52:14 <TheLordOfTime> nanotube, wait, you're actually awake at this hour? You never respond to my pings usually here xD
1218 2013-08-22 16:52:30 <TheLordOfTime> s/here/at this hour/
1219 2013-08-22 16:55:39 * nanotube hides :)
1220 2013-08-22 16:57:08 <TheLordOfTime> heh
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1222 2013-08-22 16:59:08 <Cusipzzz> nanotube gets so many pms he has gribble screen them and randomly pass on 1% for his review
1223 2013-08-22 16:59:50 <nanotube> Cusipzzz: randomly? gribble's been self-aware for years now. :P
1224 2013-08-22 17:01:04 <Cusipzzz> no wonder mine never get through :/
1225 2013-08-22 17:02:17 <nanotube> haha
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1234 2013-08-22 17:16:36 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Has gavinandresen tagged anything later than 0.8.4rc2? I can't find branches/tags in the github mobile interface.
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1380 2013-08-22 20:34:02 <Krellan_> gmaxwell: I wrote up my thoughts about my experiment with adding ping time measurement/readout to bitcoind last night. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279652.0
1381 2013-08-22 20:34:19 <Krellan_> It works, but needs some polishing before it's ready for prime time.
1382 2013-08-22 20:34:31 stalled has joined
1383 2013-08-22 20:35:06 <gmaxwell> the other nonces are bitcoinj most likely.
1384 2013-08-22 20:35:12 <Krellan_> Thanks
1385 2013-08-22 20:35:24 <gmaxwell> the mismatches are an older version of bitcoind I think.
1386 2013-08-22 20:35:32 <Krellan_> Any idea as to why I'd send a valid nonce with my ping but get back zero as a response?
1387 2013-08-22 20:35:55 <gmaxwell> the mismatches are an older version of bitcoind I think. < That
1388 2013-08-22 20:36:16 <gmaxwell> I think the first implementation had a stupid bug with the type of the response or something.
1389 2013-08-22 20:36:17 <Krellan_> If client is really old (before nonces and pong were added) I send just the bare ping and don't even try to time measure it.
1390 2013-08-22 20:36:57 <gmaxwell> As far as remembering nonces, I think you could just send a counter, or an encrypted counter.
1391 2013-08-22 20:37:31 <gmaxwell> Krellan_: see c971112dfaeab836d8b626c862ede0059f5325b8
1392 2013-08-22 20:37:58 <Krellan_> OK thanks. I'll treat zero as acceptable, and flag it in my "pingstat" field so it can be known that it won't work with overlapped pings.
1393 2013-08-22 20:38:04 paybitcoin1 has joined
1394 2013-08-22 20:38:34 <gmaxwell> "Any suggestions on what a reasonable ratelimit would be?" avoid pinging a host within one second of the last time you pinged it.
1395 2013-08-22 20:38:37 <Krellan_> Nice find!
1396 2013-08-22 20:38:41 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1397 2013-08-22 20:39:04 <gmaxwell> not a find, I remembered it. :P
1398 2013-08-22 20:39:35 <gmaxwell> as far as (6), ... I dunno. there are some old bitcoinj peers that send pings super fast.
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1400 2013-08-22 20:39:49 <Krellan_> was talking with sipa last night about that.
1401 2013-08-22 20:40:06 <Krellan_> good to know he found and fixed that bug.
1402 2013-08-22 20:40:19 <Krellan_> I could probably simply ignore peers that send me a ping faster than once per second.
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1404 2013-08-22 20:42:08 <Krellan_> thinking of adding more bitfields to "pingstat": ping requested, ping sent, peer too old, peer nonce mismatch, peer zero nonce bug, ping successfully received.
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1406 2013-08-22 20:45:14 <Krellan_> Will work on it more tonight.
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1447 2013-08-22 21:51:39 <helo> so... anyone still have large-ish amounts of bitcoin stored on android's Bitcoin Wallet?
1448 2013-08-22 21:54:51 <BCB> anyone have the link of jgarzik's site with the stats
1449 2013-08-22 21:55:11 <jgarzik> bitcoinwatch.com ?
1450 2013-08-22 21:55:29 Diapolis has joined
1451 2013-08-22 21:55:51 <BCB> thank you
1452 2013-08-22 21:56:11 <BCB> jgarzik: is it possible to get the total number of bitcoins in circulation from the clients
1453 2013-08-22 21:56:14 <BCB> client
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1455 2013-08-22 21:57:01 <jgarzik> bcb, yes with a bit of programming or spreadsheeting. not easily.
1456 2013-08-22 21:57:26 <BCB> I though it was going to be added to getinfo??
1457 2013-08-22 21:57:43 <jgarzik> hadn't heard that
1458 2013-08-22 21:57:58 <sipa> it's in gettxoutsetinfo
1459 2013-08-22 21:58:38 <sipa> 11591864.79581183
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1461 2013-08-22 22:00:15 <BCB> that was it. Thanks sipa
1462 2013-08-22 22:01:06 <BCB> jgarzik: I see bitpay made their btc pricing public
1463 2013-08-22 22:01:19 <BCB> jgarzik: is the formula also public
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