1 2013-08-26 00:05:28 junkstable has left ()
   2 2013-08-26 00:08:53 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
   3 2013-08-26 00:11:02 Application has joined
   4 2013-08-26 00:11:51 one_zero has joined
   5 2013-08-26 00:12:59 <gavinandresen> ok, will move to OBSOLETE directory with a big warning
   6 2013-08-26 00:13:30 paracyst has joined
   7 2013-08-26 00:14:31 <gmaxwell> if you want you could also rename the files.
   8 2013-08-26 00:14:38 <gmaxwell> obsolete_bitcoin_0.3.2.etc.
   9 2013-08-26 00:15:15 <Krellan> Luke-Jr: There, I moved that bfgminer unit test into a function, added command line option --unittest for it.
  10 2013-08-26 00:15:21 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
  11 2013-08-26 00:15:28 <Krellan> The unit test fails, as it should, there's another pull request to fix the bug it finds :)
  12 2013-08-26 00:20:18 darkee_ has joined
  13 2013-08-26 00:20:39 btcbtc has joined
  14 2013-08-26 00:21:54 wamatt has joined
  15 2013-08-26 00:23:16 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  16 2013-08-26 00:23:19 macboz has joined
  17 2013-08-26 00:33:13 melvster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
  18 2013-08-26 00:38:11 sserrano44 has joined
  19 2013-08-26 00:38:19 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
  20 2013-08-26 00:38:59 ericmuyser has joined
  21 2013-08-26 00:40:19 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  22 2013-08-26 00:42:42 freewil has joined
  23 2013-08-26 00:43:27 <BlueMatt> sipa/Luke-Jr rarely
  24 2013-08-26 00:44:10 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  25 2013-08-26 00:45:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: if you mean to tell me my dnsseed hasn't updated in like a week+, Im well aware...waiting on a new nic to arrive
  26 2013-08-26 00:47:15 Sunwicked has quit ()
  27 2013-08-26 00:47:25 Sunwicked has joined
  28 2013-08-26 00:48:59 yubrew has joined
  29 2013-08-26 00:49:09 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  30 2013-08-26 00:50:52 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  31 2013-08-26 00:54:38 Sunwicked has quit ()
  32 2013-08-26 00:57:53 wamatt has quit (Quit: wamatt)
  33 2013-08-26 01:00:03 Luna has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  34 2013-08-26 01:00:19 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  35 2013-08-26 01:01:18 Luna has joined
  36 2013-08-26 01:02:47 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen TD
  37 2013-08-26 01:02:47 <gribble> TD was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 days, 9 hours, and 49 seconds ago: <TD> from a portability perspective it loses .... apparently building pond on a mac is a nightmare
  38 2013-08-26 01:02:53 <phantomcircuit> hmm
  39 2013-08-26 01:02:55 Luke-Jr has joined
  40 2013-08-26 01:03:20 <phantomcircuit> multibit expects nexus.bitcoinj.org to be alive
  41 2013-08-26 01:03:22 <phantomcircuit> but it's not
  42 2013-08-26 01:04:44 * BlueMatt doesnt remember it being alive any time recently...
  43 2013-08-26 01:05:53 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
  44 2013-08-26 01:05:57 <phantomcircuit> so i guess the multibit maven build process is broken?
  45 2013-08-26 01:07:05 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  46 2013-08-26 01:07:36 <phantomcircuit> :/
  47 2013-08-26 01:08:07 <BlueMatt> probably works if you install bitcoinj manually
  48 2013-08-26 01:09:59 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  49 2013-08-26 01:10:04 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  50 2013-08-26 01:10:15 CryptoBuck has joined
  51 2013-08-26 01:10:52 btcbtc has joined
  52 2013-08-26 01:11:29 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  53 2013-08-26 01:11:33 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  54 2013-08-26 01:13:22 <TheLordOfTime> anyone know why the testnet's difficulty jumped almost by 100 in 24 hours?
  55 2013-08-26 01:14:17 JZavala has joined
  56 2013-08-26 01:16:17 peetaur2 has joined
  57 2013-08-26 01:18:14 Apexseals has joined
  58 2013-08-26 01:18:47 wamatt has joined
  59 2013-08-26 01:21:17 _jps has joined
  60 2013-08-26 01:22:10 <phantomcircuit> interesting
  61 2013-08-26 01:22:18 <phantomcircuit> 0.6.3 is stuck at SetBestChain: new best=000000000000004bd037  height=252450  work=2800534491480214425207
  62 2013-08-26 01:22:42 <phantomcircuit> while others are stuck at different places
  63 2013-08-26 01:26:21 eian has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  64 2013-08-26 01:26:44 eian has joined
  65 2013-08-26 01:27:58 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: Are they InvalidChainFounding or just stuck?
  66 2013-08-26 01:29:28 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  67 2013-08-26 01:30:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, just stuck
  68 2013-08-26 01:30:05 <phantomcircuit> it's weird
  69 2013-08-26 01:30:11 <phantomcircuit> shrug
  70 2013-08-26 01:30:16 <phantomcircuit> almost nobody runs 0.5.3
  71 2013-08-26 01:30:17 <phantomcircuit> so
  72 2013-08-26 01:30:18 <phantomcircuit> whatever
  73 2013-08-26 01:30:41 <phantomcircuit> i have one entry in my database but i'm pretty sure it's fake
  74 2013-08-26 01:31:23 <warren> phantomcircuit: litecoin's network has hundreds of nodes with version numbers we didn't release
  75 2013-08-26 01:31:55 <phantomcircuit> yeah but why would someone claim to be 0.5.3
  76 2013-08-26 01:31:57 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: there are old sync bugs in versions before 0.6.something that could cause that.
  77 2013-08-26 01:32:02 <phantomcircuit> (0.5.3 didn't use the subversion field)
  78 2013-08-26 01:32:06 <gmaxwell> the block pulling state machine has been kinda fragile.
  79 2013-08-26 01:36:56 CobaltBlueD has joined
  80 2013-08-26 01:37:27 <phantomcircuit> lol
  81 2013-08-26 01:37:30 <phantomcircuit> moment of panic
  82 2013-08-26 01:37:45 <phantomcircuit> why is there 1MB/s of upload happening
  83 2013-08-26 01:37:49 <phantomcircuit> derp upnp
  84 2013-08-26 01:38:38 <gmaxwell> you compile with that?!
  85 2013-08-26 01:40:44 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no it's upnp for it's original intended purpose
  86 2013-08-26 01:40:46 <phantomcircuit> media streaming
  87 2013-08-26 01:42:38 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  88 2013-08-26 01:50:53 dust-otc has joined
  89 2013-08-26 01:52:05 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
  90 2013-08-26 01:52:15 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
  91 2013-08-26 01:53:38 CobaltBlueD has left ("Just leaving….")
  92 2013-08-26 01:58:50 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
  93 2013-08-26 02:01:00 peetaur2 has joined
  94 2013-08-26 02:01:46 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
  95 2013-08-26 02:02:04 gritball has quit (Read error: No route to host)
  96 2013-08-26 02:03:56 _jps has joined
  97 2013-08-26 02:08:04 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
  98 2013-08-26 02:09:56 peetaur2 has joined
  99 2013-08-26 02:10:56 ericmuyser has joined
 100 2013-08-26 02:11:58 mrkent has joined
 101 2013-08-26 02:13:00 agnostic98 has joined
 102 2013-08-26 02:13:15 paybitcoin1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 103 2013-08-26 02:13:54 paybitcoin has joined
 104 2013-08-26 02:14:33 gritball has joined
 105 2013-08-26 02:15:04 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 106 2013-08-26 02:15:29 btcbtc has joined
 107 2013-08-26 02:17:50 Subo1977_ has joined
 108 2013-08-26 02:18:04 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 109 2013-08-26 02:19:46 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 110 2013-08-26 02:20:57 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 111 2013-08-26 02:21:09 rdymac has joined
 112 2013-08-26 02:21:42 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 113 2013-08-26 02:23:04 cads has joined
 114 2013-08-26 02:26:26 sacrelege has joined
 115 2013-08-26 02:29:54 agnostic98 has joined
 116 2013-08-26 02:30:23 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 117 2013-08-26 02:32:09 ltcbtc has joined
 118 2013-08-26 02:32:21 wamatt has quit (Quit: wamatt)
 119 2013-08-26 02:43:07 ltcbtc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 120 2013-08-26 02:46:12 blaeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 121 2013-08-26 02:48:23 <jgarzik> heh, cute.  Under 10 lines of code.
 122 2013-08-26 02:48:31 <jgarzik>  /rest/block/template.(dat}txt)
 123 2013-08-26 02:48:39 <jgarzik>  /rest/block/template.(dat|txt)
 124 2013-08-26 02:48:47 <jgarzik> obtains a miner block template via HTTP REST
 125 2013-08-26 02:48:59 <Luke-Jr> should txt be json?
 126 2013-08-26 02:49:21 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, no, that would be /rest/block/template.json
 127 2013-08-26 02:49:29 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, .txt is hex-encoded binary
 128 2013-08-26 02:49:57 <Luke-Jr> bleh, what happened to using HTTP standards? :P
 129 2013-08-26 02:50:42 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, it does use http standards -- in a way that is more compatible with http-download tools
 130 2013-08-26 02:51:03 richcollins has joined
 131 2013-08-26 02:51:50 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, current implementation does not include /rest/block/template.json, because I was undecided how to mesh that with BIP 22
 132 2013-08-26 02:52:03 <lianj> what just happened, 30 minutes no blocks and then 3 in 4 minutes with the newst an older timestamp than the one before
 133 2013-08-26 02:52:15 <lianj> seems like they were all pushed at the same time
 134 2013-08-26 02:52:45 <lianj> ah nevermind about the timestamp…
 135 2013-08-26 02:52:49 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, regardless, I am /not/ pushing this into the HTTP REST pull req
 136 2013-08-26 02:52:59 <jgarzik> it would be a separate pull req, if it ever makes it that far
 137 2013-08-26 02:53:10 btcbtc has joined
 138 2013-08-26 02:53:14 <jgarzik> I'm thinking the binary format will be nice for my C++ poolserver
 139 2013-08-26 02:57:27 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 140 2013-08-26 02:59:30 eian has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 141 2013-08-26 03:07:53 mappum has joined
 142 2013-08-26 03:08:23 lle has joined
 143 2013-08-26 03:10:27 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 144 2013-08-26 03:11:52 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 145 2013-08-26 03:14:27 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 146 2013-08-26 03:14:36 TheSeven has joined
 147 2013-08-26 03:18:14 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 148 2013-08-26 03:21:15 asa1024 has joined
 149 2013-08-26 03:22:13 CobaltBlueD has joined
 150 2013-08-26 03:24:01 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
 151 2013-08-26 03:41:30 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 152 2013-08-26 03:44:34 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
 153 2013-08-26 03:52:38 wamatt has joined
 154 2013-08-26 03:53:53 rodarmor has joined
 155 2013-08-26 03:55:36 wamatt has quit (Client Quit)
 156 2013-08-26 03:59:55 CobaltBlueD has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 157 2013-08-26 04:01:00 b4tt3r135 has joined
 158 2013-08-26 04:03:20 Birnie has joined
 159 2013-08-26 04:07:37 Birnie has left ()
 160 2013-08-26 04:10:04 rodarmor has quit (Quit: rodarmor)
 161 2013-08-26 04:10:45 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 162 2013-08-26 04:15:38 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 163 2013-08-26 04:21:09 mappum has joined
 164 2013-08-26 04:25:27 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 165 2013-08-26 04:29:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2905#issuecomment-23243152
 166 2013-08-26 04:29:39 <gmaxwell> Are you on this poolowner's mailing list?
 167 2013-08-26 04:30:00 <gmaxwell> And is that just someone who is totally blinking clueless and thinks that bitcoind not using getwork prevents them from serving getwork miners?
 168 2013-08-26 04:32:49 <k9quaint> has someone made a haskell implementation of the bitcoin client yet?
 169 2013-08-26 04:33:17 <doublec> gmaxwell: I'm that clueless pool owner
 170 2013-08-26 04:33:35 <gmaxwell> sweet.
 171 2013-08-26 04:33:50 <doublec> gmaxwell: my comment was answering if anyone used getwork
 172 2013-08-26 04:33:58 <gmaxwell> doublec: is there an actual issue here for you? Does not going getwork to bitcoin prevent you from serving getwork to users?
 173 2013-08-26 04:34:03 <doublec> gmaxwell: I have no problem with getwork being removed
 174 2013-08-26 04:34:06 <gmaxwell> Ah!
 175 2013-08-26 04:34:17 <doublec> gmaxwell: but until I make the code changes I need to stick to an older bitcoind obviously
 176 2013-08-26 04:34:39 <doublec> gmaxwell: and I was askiing if security patches would be provided/backported to a getwork supporting bitcoind
 177 2013-08-26 04:35:27 <doublec> gmaxwell: I asked this because 0.8.2+ seem to have deadlocks with high usage of getwork
 178 2013-08-26 04:35:32 <gmaxwell> doublec: oh, you don't support getwork based miners by generating getwork responses from GBT?
 179 2013-08-26 04:35:34 <doublec> gmaxwell: and I hadn't upgraded from 0.8.1 as a result
 180 2013-08-26 04:35:48 <doublec> gmaxwell: no, my code predates that and I've not invested time in getwork since then
 181 2013-08-26 04:36:22 <gmaxwell> Fair enough. (this, in fact, means you're not clueless. :P)
 182 2013-08-26 04:37:02 <doublec> I also acknowledged that this might be problematic due to lack of development resources and desire not to reveal the security issue
 183 2013-08-26 04:37:28 <doublec> I'm fine with doing the extra work - just need to bump it up to my "need to do now" queue.
 184 2013-08-26 04:37:33 <doublec> or drop all getwork miners
 185 2013-08-26 04:37:37 <doublec> which is tempting
 186 2013-08-26 04:39:32 <doublec> k9quaint: roconnor worked on one but I don't know if development is continuing
 187 2013-08-26 04:39:36 <gmaxwell> If you're running 0.8.1 you're already exposed to easily exploited issues. I suggest not exposing that node to the public network and you're fine.
 188 2013-08-26 04:39:43 <gmaxwell> Also... you really should report your deadlocks. :(
 189 2013-08-26 04:39:56 <doublec> k9quaint: here's a github import of it https://github.com/laanwj/Purecoin
 190 2013-08-26 04:40:10 <doublec> gmaxwell: I discussed it here a while back and got "probably shouldn't use getwork" as a response
 191 2013-08-26 04:40:29 <doublec> gmaxwell: I've been backporting the issues I know of to my 0.8.1
 192 2013-08-26 04:40:38 Applicat_ has joined
 193 2013-08-26 04:40:42 msvb-lab has joined
 194 2013-08-26 04:40:56 <gmaxwell> well, thats true too. And I admit, now I'd rather remove it then investigate the issue. Though its a little surprising the same issue doesn't exist for gbt.
 195 2013-08-26 04:41:14 <doublec> I don't think gbt gets the workout that getwork does
 196 2013-08-26 04:41:22 <gmaxwell> fair point.
 197 2013-08-26 04:41:24 msvb-lab has left ()
 198 2013-08-26 04:41:31 <gmaxwell> doublec: for all I know something that was a fix is the cause of that deadlock. :(
 199 2013-08-26 04:41:33 <doublec> my getwork server is a dumb proxy that just forwards direct to getwork on bitcoind after some bsaic cheks
 200 2013-08-26 04:41:46 <gmaxwell> oh wow.
 201 2013-08-26 04:41:47 <doublec> and does the accounting for the pool of course
 202 2013-08-26 04:41:53 <doublec> I wrote it a long time ago :)
 203 2013-08-26 04:42:07 msvb-lab has joined
 204 2013-08-26 04:42:07 <gmaxwell> I'm surprised you don't get dos attacked to death. Hurray for having a low profile.
 205 2013-08-26 04:42:08 Applica__ has joined
 206 2013-08-26 04:42:42 <doublec> it handled 2 thash/s with that approacah so it wasn't too bad
 207 2013-08-26 04:43:38 <gmaxwell> I'm impressed, IIRC solo mining I had to have a stack of patches on bitcoind to get getwork up to handling just 40GH/s though that was a long time ago.
 208 2013-08-26 04:44:19 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 209 2013-08-26 04:44:21 <doublec> my proxy, written in ATS, does a bunch of queuing, etc to be nice to bitcoind
 210 2013-08-26 04:44:40 <doublec> it's definitly not the way to go now though
 211 2013-08-26 04:45:15 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 212 2013-08-26 04:45:45 <doublec> I'll clarify in that github issue that I'm not opposed to it being removed
 213 2013-08-26 04:49:35 <gmaxwell> so wrt backporting, you can be handled here easily enough— actually I suspect all of the 0.8.4 patches except the leveldb one would just apply mostly cleanly on your code. I can walk through whichever ones don't if you try.
 214 2013-08-26 04:49:55 <doublec> Yep, gavin suggested that so I'll try it.
 215 2013-08-26 04:50:10 <doublec> I'll try and do a test case for the getwork hang and see if I can reproduce it on gbt.
 216 2013-08-26 04:50:28 <gmaxwell> But a problem with staying back is that sometimes things get fixed as a side effect of hardening things generally and we may not be aware of all issues we've fixed. So I still would generally recommend isolating any backport nodes from the public network.
 217 2013-08-26 04:50:58 <doublec> I agree - I want to stay on a supported (ie. one that gets fixes) branch when possible.
 218 2013-08-26 04:51:15 dvide has quit ()
 219 2013-08-26 04:51:53 <gmaxwell> (and in generally I would strongly recommend isolating mining nodes from the public network, connecting only outbound to your own trusted nodes and other nodes you think are unlikely to dos attack you.)
 220 2013-08-26 04:54:02 <doublec> I was doing that a while back. I had my mining node behind another node, just connected to that.
 221 2013-08-26 04:54:17 <doublec> Unfortunately I had issues where the mining node wouldn't send blocks on to the connected node.
 222 2013-08-26 04:54:30 <doublec> about 1 in 50 times. And this would result in an orphan.
 223 2013-08-26 04:54:51 <doublec> I couldn't narrow down why the error was happening
 224 2013-08-26 04:54:54 <gmaxwell> erk.
 225 2013-08-26 04:54:57 <doublec> (whether it was my code or bitcoins)
 226 2013-08-26 04:55:15 <doublec> at that time I was paying orphans so I had to change back until I investigated further
 227 2013-08-26 04:55:30 ThomasV has joined
 228 2013-08-26 04:56:24 <gmaxwell> My own stuff, and what I've recommended to other people is to have run one or more public nodes and have your mining node -connect your public nodes, as well as several other stable well known nodes (e.g. ones run by pools, jgarzik's, etc).. should give a reasonable robustness to failure...
 229 2013-08-26 04:57:10 <doublec> right, that's what I had. Now I have a non-listening mining node with addnodes to a bunch of others.
 230 2013-08-26 04:57:14 <JyZyXEL> shouldn't "poolowning" be discouraged because it adds centralization?
 231 2013-08-26 04:57:30 <doublec> my stratum server also forwards to block to multiple bitcoinds that I run in different locations too - just to be paranoid.
 232 2013-08-26 04:58:31 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 233 2013-08-26 04:59:38 <doublec> JyZyXEL: poolowning is definitely problematic for some reasons, but advantageous for others (for example the recovery from the blockchain fork a while back)
 234 2013-08-26 05:00:01 <gmaxwell> JyZyXEL: I can't fathom what you're thinking there. Yes, pools are risky points of failure as they exist today (though centeralization has some benefits), they don't have to be quite so risky.. but that has nothing to do with them having operators or not.
 235 2013-08-26 05:01:36 <gmaxwell> doublec: Without disagreeing generally, I'm highly skeptical of that specific example. Had 0.8 nodes been an actual majority in the network then the fork would have mostly just taken care of itself... arguably part of the problem there was that most of the hashpower was consolidated in a few hands, and they were running something differnet from the network at large (only something like 20% of visiable nodes had upgraded)
 236 2013-08-26 05:02:14 <gmaxwell> (but >>50% of the hashpower had upgraded by virtue of just having three or four parties upgrade. :( )
 237 2013-08-26 05:02:17 <doublec> gmaxwell: true
 238 2013-08-26 05:02:45 <gmaxwell> doublec: have you seen the coinbase pooling proposal that I'm fond of?
 239 2013-08-26 05:03:00 <doublec> for me running a pool was an interesting programming problem to test scalability of the technologies I use. I've gone through about three different programming language rewrites.
 240 2013-08-26 05:03:09 <doublec> gmaxwell: no, I haven't seen that
 241 2013-08-26 05:03:34 <doublec> from Mozart/Oz -> Ur/Web -> ATS
 242 2013-08-26 05:03:35 <gmaxwell> Maybe petertodd or luke had written it up better someplace, as its something we came up with during the conference;  but I repeated it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279017.msg3008168#msg3008168
 243 2013-08-26 05:04:53 <doublec> gmaxwell: that is nice
 244 2013-08-26 05:04:57 <gmaxwell> basically I suggest we should have miner software that supports doing a GBT against a local bitcoind,  and then merging it with a coinbase from a pool.  Then the miner submits shares to the pool and the pool pays based on that. (plus perhaps some sanity checking of the shares). This pools the coinbase, but not the consensus decision. Obviously not a complete replacement for classical mining, but it does decenteralize it more.
 245 2013-08-26 05:05:45 <gmaxwell> it'll be a little easier to move forward with once we get the resources needed to run bitcoind trimmed down a bit more.
 246 2013-08-26 05:05:49 <doublec> there will always be miners who don't want to run a bitcoind but for those that do that's a good options.
 247 2013-08-26 05:06:01 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
 248 2013-08-26 05:06:33 <gmaxwell> Another point there is that, potentially miners could pull their GBT from some other bitcoin that isn't the party that pools their payments. No need to connect the two events.
 249 2013-08-26 05:06:57 <doublec> right. Pools could provide the GBT and the coinbase but users can pick either from different pools.
 250 2013-08-26 05:07:35 <k9quaint> I thought that whole fork issue with 0.8 turned out to be a good thing because it provided an example of the process for resolving such a disagreement in the clients
 251 2013-08-26 05:08:35 asuk has joined
 252 2013-08-26 05:09:02 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: I dunno about that. In theory, if mining was really diverse the "least common denominator" chain would naturally win, as the one that most of the hashpower would tolerate. Here we had to manually achieve that by getting a couple big miners to move manually.
 253 2013-08-26 05:10:03 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 254 2013-08-26 05:10:31 <k9quaint> it gives you a concrete example of conflict resolution, you can point at it and say "we can just do that again" or say "god, no, we would have to do that again!"
 255 2013-08-26 05:10:46 <k9quaint> its nice to have an example of what might happen
 256 2013-08-26 05:11:21 <k9quaint> and there was no harm done, which is a risk when stuff like that happens
 257 2013-08-26 05:11:26 <gmaxwell> k. well you could also look at the value overflow fork if you want that.
 258 2013-08-26 05:11:34 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 259 2013-08-26 05:11:50 cads has joined
 260 2013-08-26 05:11:57 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 261 2013-08-26 05:12:44 <k9quaint> also, my beer bottle is empty, I now go to resolve this conflict
 262 2013-08-26 05:16:14 winbtc_moarrr has joined
 263 2013-08-26 05:16:46 winbtc_moarrr is now known as moarrr
 264 2013-08-26 05:17:14 asuk has quit (Quit: asuk)
 265 2013-08-26 05:21:33 richcollins has joined
 266 2013-08-26 05:21:43 rodarmor has joined
 267 2013-08-26 05:24:50 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 268 2013-08-26 05:26:30 gst has joined
 269 2013-08-26 05:27:35 <Krellan> I think it's just a huge stroke of luck that the March 2013 bug/fork took place before the April 2013 public breakthrough of Bitcoin into the mainstream media.
 270 2013-08-26 05:27:41 <Krellan> Imagine if those two dates had been reversed...!
 271 2013-08-26 05:28:19 <gmaxwell> Krellan: uhh. Bitcoin was heavily covered by the mainstream media in 2011.
 272 2013-08-26 05:30:11 <gmaxwell> I admit, I didn't realize that there was so much more in april: http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=bitcoin#q=bitcoin&cmpt=q
 273 2013-08-26 05:30:33 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 274 2013-08-26 05:33:05 <Krellan> True, it was, but nothing like the April 2013 spike.  Embarrasingly I didn't get into Bitcoin when first hearing about it back in 2011, took me until 2013 to wake up.
 275 2013-08-26 05:33:32 <k9quaint> wow, that trend graph is compelling
 276 2013-08-26 05:35:33 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 277 2013-08-26 05:36:44 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 278 2013-08-26 05:37:04 malaimo has joined
 279 2013-08-26 05:45:48 saivann has quit ()
 280 2013-08-26 05:53:08 btcbtc has joined
 281 2013-08-26 05:53:28 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds)
 282 2013-08-26 06:05:30 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 283 2013-08-26 06:06:27 joepie91 has joined
 284 2013-08-26 06:08:46 _ingsoc has joined
 285 2013-08-26 06:09:05 bd__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 286 2013-08-26 06:09:50 bd_ has joined
 287 2013-08-26 06:12:28 <Diablo-D3> so
 288 2013-08-26 06:12:29 <Diablo-D3> I tried emacs
 289 2013-08-26 06:12:33 <Diablo-D3> not for me =/
 290 2013-08-26 06:12:51 altamic has joined
 291 2013-08-26 06:13:00 altamic has left ()
 292 2013-08-26 06:13:00 <Diablo-D3> btw, when did bitcoin hit >$200? in april?
 293 2013-08-26 06:15:58 Applica__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 294 2013-08-26 06:16:54 Application has joined
 295 2013-08-26 06:19:20 ThomasV has joined
 296 2013-08-26 06:20:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: from what I hear, there have been occasional reports of deadlocking RPC under high load, ever since the thread refactor... getwork is probable the easiest way to trigger it
 297 2013-08-26 06:23:49 oleganza has joined
 298 2013-08-26 06:25:18 hsmiths has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 299 2013-08-26 06:25:46 yubrew has joined
 300 2013-08-26 06:29:07 abrkn has joined
 301 2013-08-26 06:29:58 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
 302 2013-08-26 06:30:04 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 303 2013-08-26 06:31:48 fanquake has joined
 304 2013-08-26 06:32:22 ie6 has joined
 305 2013-08-26 06:34:02 <Krellan> gmaxwell: There, I found some time today to work on my ping patch a little more.  Updated the commit in the pull req.
 306 2013-08-26 06:35:23 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 307 2013-08-26 06:37:12 <Diablo-D3> sipa: honestly, this is why I hate threads
 308 2013-08-26 06:37:17 <Diablo-D3> sipa: they're just too problematic to ever use
 309 2013-08-26 06:46:28 PrimeStunna has quit (Quit: PrimeStunna)
 310 2013-08-26 06:47:01 <gmaxwell> doublec: does your getwork load that deadlocks bitcoin result in concurrent access to the RPC?
 311 2013-08-26 06:49:35 <doublec> gmaxwell: yes
 312 2013-08-26 06:51:51 <sipa> maybe http keeping connections open plays a role
 313 2013-08-26 06:53:10 <gmaxwell> I've seen a number of reports of making a whole bunch of connections then seeing some stalling, but I don't recall hearing about outright deadlocks?
 314 2013-08-26 06:55:29 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 315 2013-08-26 06:56:39 <doublec> sipa: If I use a client that uses keep-alive other clients would hang when all the available connections to bitcoind were busy
 316 2013-08-26 06:56:40 e0s__ has joined
 317 2013-08-26 06:57:00 <doublec> sipa: but even with keep alive disabled I'd get the occasional deadlock
 318 2013-08-26 06:57:11 <sipa> hmm
 319 2013-08-26 06:57:39 <doublec> so if I used a libcurl based client with keep-alive enabled, using one connection only but reusing it, other clients couldn't use bitcoind rpc
 320 2013-08-26 06:58:34 <doublec> this was with 0.8.2 - I since moved away from keep-alive based connections to avoid that but didn't retry on 0.8.3+
 321 2013-08-26 06:59:19 <doublec> so I pass CURLOPT_FORBID_REUSE, when using libcurl now
 322 2013-08-26 07:00:09 <gmaxwell> that sounds like an easily fixed bug..
 323 2013-08-26 07:00:13 Eiii has quit ()
 324 2013-08-26 07:00:16 <gmaxwell> or at least easily reproduced!
 325 2013-08-26 07:02:26 <doublec> let me see if I can do a quick test case with libcurl
 326 2013-08-26 07:16:34 OPrime has joined
 327 2013-08-26 07:20:07 <doublec> ok, got it
 328 2013-08-26 07:20:48 <doublec> gmaxwell: http://cd.pn/test.c
 329 2013-08-26 07:21:08 <doublec> run that with: test http://127.0.0.1;8332/ user:password
 330 2013-08-26 07:21:13 <doublec> I run four instances
 331 2013-08-26 07:21:21 <doublec> then do a 'bitcoind getinfo'
 332 2013-08-26 07:21:36 <doublec> the latter hangs
 333 2013-08-26 07:22:11 <doublec> I guess there's a limit to 4 concurrent connections
 334 2013-08-26 07:22:48 * doublec tries to duplicate deadlock without keep-alive
 335 2013-08-26 07:24:44 <gavinandresen> doublec: '4' is the -rpcthreads default.
 336 2013-08-26 07:26:02 <doublec> I wonder if it's worth keeping one thread non keep-alive so there's always a connection available
 337 2013-08-26 07:27:33 <doublec> if I use CURLOPT_FORBID_REUSE and run remove the sleep call then all four clients run for about 30 seconds
 338 2013-08-26 07:27:39 <sipa> didn't you say that even without keep-alive, you'd deadlock?
 339 2013-08-26 07:27:45 <doublec> then bitcoind stops responding to rpc requests
 340 2013-08-26 07:28:01 <doublec> sipa: yes. I'm trying to reproduce that.
 341 2013-08-26 07:28:09 <doublec> but it might be on getwork submission only.
 342 2013-08-26 07:28:29 <sipa> it's been untested for a really long time, so not sure it even compiles anymore, but can you build bitcoin with deadlock detection?
 343 2013-08-26 07:28:39 <doublec> sipa: what's the option for that?
 344 2013-08-26 07:28:51 <sipa> -DDEBUG_LOCKORDER
 345 2013-08-26 07:29:38 <doublec> I don't know if I'll be able to reproduce the deadlock. It'd happen on the pool intermittently - sometimes taking hours.
 346 2013-08-26 07:29:42 <doublec> I'll give it a go though.
 347 2013-08-26 07:29:45 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
 348 2013-08-26 07:32:40 <doublec> another change I noticed when switching to 0.8.x was the urls for the RPC had to have a trailing slash. Prior to that it didn't matter.
 349 2013-08-26 07:32:50 <doublec> I forget what 'x' brought that in
 350 2013-08-26 07:36:30 macboz_ has joined
 351 2013-08-26 07:38:21 <doublec> ok, I'll run a test for a few hours and see if it deadlocks
 352 2013-08-26 07:39:16 <sipa> i don't expect much of it; it seems interaction with the asio/boostthread stuff, which doesn't use bitcoin'd sync mechanism
 353 2013-08-26 07:39:35 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 354 2013-08-26 07:39:49 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 355 2013-08-26 07:40:39 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, it's more than that though, something about the way rpc calls work causes a deadlock if you make rpcthreads - 1 concurrent requests
 356 2013-08-26 07:40:52 <phantomcircuit> the issue isn't with locks explicitly acquired in bitcoin code
 357 2013-08-26 07:41:04 <phantomcircuit> it's something about the way boost asio is happening
 358 2013-08-26 07:41:20 Odyessus has joined
 359 2013-08-26 07:44:46 macboz_ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 360 2013-08-26 07:45:01 <doublec> isn't that because each thread is kept busy with the keep-alive connection and there are no more threads to service other requests?
 361 2013-08-26 07:46:17 <gmaxwell> running boost asio inside gdb made me want to commit suicide.
 362 2013-08-26 07:46:41 <gmaxwell> Rubegoldburg would be proud of the execution flow there.
 363 2013-08-26 07:48:03 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 364 2013-08-26 07:50:17 melvster has joined
 365 2013-08-26 07:51:41 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 366 2013-08-26 07:52:46 MobiusL has joined
 367 2013-08-26 07:53:54 <phantomcircuit> doublec, that doesn't explain why it's rpcthreads  -1
 368 2013-08-26 07:57:40 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 369 2013-08-26 07:58:19 c0rw1n has joined
 370 2013-08-26 08:07:37 catcowllama has joined
 371 2013-08-26 08:07:37 catcowllama has quit (Changing host)
 372 2013-08-26 08:07:37 catcowllama has joined
 373 2013-08-26 08:08:37 mrkent has joined
 374 2013-08-26 08:10:28 catcow has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 375 2013-08-26 08:15:41 wboy has joined
 376 2013-08-26 08:18:25 agnostic98 has joined
 377 2013-08-26 08:18:37 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 378 2013-08-26 08:18:37 e0s_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 379 2013-08-26 08:18:37 e0s__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 380 2013-08-26 08:22:34 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 381 2013-08-26 08:25:33 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 382 2013-08-26 08:27:28 random_cat has joined
 383 2013-08-26 08:27:58 cdecker1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 384 2013-08-26 08:28:15 _ingsoc has joined
 385 2013-08-26 08:29:35 tgs3 has quit (Changing host)
 386 2013-08-26 08:29:36 tgs3 has joined
 387 2013-08-26 08:30:03 Anduck has joined
 388 2013-08-26 08:30:03 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
 389 2013-08-26 08:30:03 Anduck has joined
 390 2013-08-26 08:30:42 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 391 2013-08-26 08:32:59 debiantoruser has joined
 392 2013-08-26 08:33:11 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 393 2013-08-26 08:33:17 debiantoruser has quit (Client Quit)
 394 2013-08-26 08:33:38 ericmuyser has joined
 395 2013-08-26 08:34:05 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 396 2013-08-26 08:35:18 debiantoruser has joined
 397 2013-08-26 08:37:45 toffoo has quit ()
 398 2013-08-26 08:41:39 cdecker1 has joined
 399 2013-08-26 08:44:27 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 400 2013-08-26 08:45:11 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 401 2013-08-26 08:45:21 iddo has joined
 402 2013-08-26 08:48:22 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
 403 2013-08-26 08:55:44 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 404 2013-08-26 08:59:30 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
 405 2013-08-26 09:01:18 Thepok has joined
 406 2013-08-26 09:02:09 awishformore has joined
 407 2013-08-26 09:04:00 jtimon has joined
 408 2013-08-26 09:05:37 roconnor has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 409 2013-08-26 09:12:09 Applicat_ has joined
 410 2013-08-26 09:12:41 agnostic98 has joined
 411 2013-08-26 09:13:00 c0rw1n has joined
 412 2013-08-26 09:13:37 Applica__ has joined
 413 2013-08-26 09:15:25 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 414 2013-08-26 09:16:35 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 415 2013-08-26 09:16:43 paybitcoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 416 2013-08-26 09:17:56 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 417 2013-08-26 09:17:58 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 418 2013-08-26 09:19:00 paybitcoin has joined
 419 2013-08-26 09:20:39 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 420 2013-08-26 09:21:49 ericmuyser has joined
 421 2013-08-26 09:23:23 wboy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 422 2013-08-26 09:23:44 wboy has joined
 423 2013-08-26 09:35:18 c0rw1n has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 424 2013-08-26 09:35:32 c0rw1n has joined
 425 2013-08-26 09:38:19 awishformore has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 426 2013-08-26 09:38:52 awishformore has joined
 427 2013-08-26 09:39:18 freewil has joined
 428 2013-08-26 09:43:34 agnostic98 has joined
 429 2013-08-26 09:47:35 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 430 2013-08-26 09:48:31 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 431 2013-08-26 09:50:25 owowo has joined
 432 2013-08-26 09:55:18 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 433 2013-08-26 09:59:01 Sunwicked has joined
 434 2013-08-26 10:04:35 Sunwicked has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 435 2013-08-26 10:05:15 Sunwicked has joined
 436 2013-08-26 10:08:11 awishformore has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 437 2013-08-26 10:08:29 awishformore has joined
 438 2013-08-26 10:14:39 agnostic98 has joined
 439 2013-08-26 10:18:49 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 440 2013-08-26 10:19:05 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 441 2013-08-26 10:21:31 handle_ has joined
 442 2013-08-26 10:21:49 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 443 2013-08-26 10:22:46 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 444 2013-08-26 10:23:04 AtashiCon has joined
 445 2013-08-26 10:23:42 iddo has joined
 446 2013-08-26 10:24:03 iddo has quit (Changing host)
 447 2013-08-26 10:24:03 iddo has joined
 448 2013-08-26 10:24:06 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 449 2013-08-26 10:26:22 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 450 2013-08-26 10:27:11 coingenuity has joined
 451 2013-08-26 10:31:38 danda_ has joined
 452 2013-08-26 10:34:21 danda has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 453 2013-08-26 10:38:19 c0rw1n has joined
 454 2013-08-26 10:39:16 awishformore has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 455 2013-08-26 10:39:35 awishformore has joined
 456 2013-08-26 10:42:09 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 457 2013-08-26 10:42:26 paybitcoin has joined
 458 2013-08-26 10:45:10 agnostic98 has joined
 459 2013-08-26 10:49:30 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 460 2013-08-26 10:51:41 iddo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 461 2013-08-26 10:51:48 iddo has joined
 462 2013-08-26 10:53:35 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 463 2013-08-26 10:54:39 moarrr has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
 464 2013-08-26 10:58:17 Subo1977_ is now known as Subo1977
 465 2013-08-26 10:58:33 sacrelege has joined
 466 2013-08-26 11:04:10 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 467 2013-08-26 11:05:27 GordonG3kko has joined
 468 2013-08-26 11:13:00 one_zero has quit ()
 469 2013-08-26 11:15:42 agnostic98 has joined
 470 2013-08-26 11:18:39 awishformore has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 471 2013-08-26 11:18:49 awishformore has joined
 472 2013-08-26 11:20:09 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 473 2013-08-26 11:20:30 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 474 2013-08-26 11:21:19 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 475 2013-08-26 11:25:29 taha has joined
 476 2013-08-26 11:27:30 stalled has joined
 477 2013-08-26 11:27:59 wboy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 478 2013-08-26 11:28:15 wboy has joined
 479 2013-08-26 11:28:18 GordonG3kko has joined
 480 2013-08-26 11:31:17 daybyter has joined
 481 2013-08-26 11:31:46 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 482 2013-08-26 11:36:13 yubrew has joined
 483 2013-08-26 11:37:08 CheckDavid has joined
 484 2013-08-26 11:42:17 eian has joined
 485 2013-08-26 11:46:12 agnostic98 has joined
 486 2013-08-26 11:48:21 tcatm_ has left ()
 487 2013-08-26 11:48:28 tcatm has joined
 488 2013-08-26 11:48:44 tcatm has quit (Changing host)
 489 2013-08-26 11:48:44 tcatm has joined
 490 2013-08-26 11:50:58 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 491 2013-08-26 11:53:48 AusBitBank_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 492 2013-08-26 11:53:52 OPrime has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 493 2013-08-26 11:54:02 moarrr has joined
 494 2013-08-26 11:54:04 OPrime has joined
 495 2013-08-26 11:56:33 Anduck has joined
 496 2013-08-26 12:12:08 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 497 2013-08-26 12:12:46 handle has joined
 498 2013-08-26 12:15:57 handle_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 499 2013-08-26 12:17:06 agnostic98 has joined
 500 2013-08-26 12:18:52 Prattler has joined
 501 2013-08-26 12:23:09 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 502 2013-08-26 12:25:30 Namworld has quit ()
 503 2013-08-26 12:29:58 eian has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 504 2013-08-26 12:31:20 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
 505 2013-08-26 12:35:09 c0rw1n has joined
 506 2013-08-26 12:35:53 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 507 2013-08-26 12:37:43 themsay has joined
 508 2013-08-26 12:41:29 moarrr has quit ()
 509 2013-08-26 12:44:39 wboy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 510 2013-08-26 12:49:42 agnostic98 has joined
 511 2013-08-26 12:50:12 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
 512 2013-08-26 12:54:14 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 513 2013-08-26 13:00:11 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 514 2013-08-26 13:02:06 mrkent has joined
 515 2013-08-26 13:03:56 yubrew__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 516 2013-08-26 13:04:12 yubrew has joined
 517 2013-08-26 13:09:26 <mrkent> What's the standard/prefered method of listening for when (if ever) customer has paid to a given address?
 518 2013-08-26 13:11:07 roconnor has joined
 519 2013-08-26 13:20:37 agnostic98 has joined
 520 2013-08-26 13:24:47 _jps has joined
 521 2013-08-26 13:24:56 pierre` has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 522 2013-08-26 13:25:01 agricocb has joined
 523 2013-08-26 13:25:13 normanrichards has joined
 524 2013-08-26 13:25:16 <Luke-Jr> mrkent: scan new blocks every block, with 6 block delay
 525 2013-08-26 13:25:25 <Luke-Jr> so when block 7 is found, you scan block 1
 526 2013-08-26 13:25:35 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 527 2013-08-26 13:26:22 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 528 2013-08-26 13:28:46 mintmoney has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 529 2013-08-26 13:34:34 tsst has joined
 530 2013-08-26 13:35:07 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 531 2013-08-26 13:35:21 handle_ has joined
 532 2013-08-26 13:36:14 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 533 2013-08-26 13:36:52 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 534 2013-08-26 13:36:57 chorao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 535 2013-08-26 13:37:24 <helo> when block 7 is orphaned, and the transaction moves to block 6, you put on your tacticool gear and take some rage out on the local squirrel population
 536 2013-08-26 13:37:40 chorao has joined
 537 2013-08-26 13:37:40 chorao has quit (Changing host)
 538 2013-08-26 13:37:40 chorao has joined
 539 2013-08-26 13:37:45 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
 540 2013-08-26 13:41:25 MiningBuddy- has left ()
 541 2013-08-26 13:41:42 MiningBuddy has joined
 542 2013-08-26 13:43:40 mintmoney has joined
 543 2013-08-26 13:49:45 jtimon has joined
 544 2013-08-26 13:49:53 roconnor has joined
 545 2013-08-26 13:50:18 rdponticelli has joined
 546 2013-08-26 13:51:13 agnostic98 has joined
 547 2013-08-26 13:53:06 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 548 2013-08-26 13:53:09 <Luke-Jr> helo: that never happens
 549 2013-08-26 13:53:30 <Luke-Jr> helo: block 7 being "orphaned" means there is a new block 7 and 8 ;)
 550 2013-08-26 13:53:37 agnostic98 has joined
 551 2013-08-26 14:04:01 <helo> err yeah, i meant "when 1 is orphaned, and the transaction moves to block 2"
 552 2013-08-26 14:04:32 <helo> but that "never" happens too ofc :)
 553 2013-08-26 14:09:21 hsmiths has joined
 554 2013-08-26 14:14:33 Subo1977 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 555 2013-08-26 14:14:50 Subo1977 has joined
 556 2013-08-26 14:14:56 <jgarzik> mornin'
 557 2013-08-26 14:17:33 wboy has joined
 558 2013-08-26 14:19:19 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 559 2013-08-26 14:21:32 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 560 2013-08-26 14:24:25 hnz has joined
 561 2013-08-26 14:27:49 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
 562 2013-08-26 14:34:07 userioao has joined
 563 2013-08-26 14:35:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 564 2013-08-26 14:35:56 richcollins has joined
 565 2013-08-26 14:36:00 patcon has joined
 566 2013-08-26 14:36:04 i2pRelay has joined
 567 2013-08-26 14:37:48 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 568 2013-08-26 14:38:45 hsmiths has joined
 569 2013-08-26 14:39:36 saivann has joined
 570 2013-08-26 14:41:44 normanrichards has joined
 571 2013-08-26 14:50:48 _ingsoc has joined
 572 2013-08-26 14:52:11 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 573 2013-08-26 14:56:14 <runeks> mornin' Jeff
 574 2013-08-26 14:56:49 <gmaxwell> dunno if people noticed, but seems someone finally caught on to the rest of the android rng issue: http://emboss.github.io/blog/2013/08/21/openssl-prng-is-not-really-fork-safe/
 575 2013-08-26 14:57:53 nanotube has joined
 576 2013-08-26 14:59:11 stalled has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 577 2013-08-26 15:02:18 Subo1977_ has joined
 578 2013-08-26 15:02:30 rdponticelli_ has joined
 579 2013-08-26 15:02:38 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 580 2013-08-26 15:02:58 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 581 2013-08-26 15:02:58 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 582 2013-08-26 15:03:38 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 583 2013-08-26 15:03:46 Subo1977 has joined
 584 2013-08-26 15:04:18 darkee_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 585 2013-08-26 15:05:38 <lianj> gmaxwell: yea, that was a nice post
 586 2013-08-26 15:06:52 Sunwicked has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 587 2013-08-26 15:06:58 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 588 2013-08-26 15:07:10 Sunwicked has joined
 589 2013-08-26 15:07:14 darkee_ has joined
 590 2013-08-26 15:07:18 Belxjander has joined
 591 2013-08-26 15:09:31 stalled has joined
 592 2013-08-26 15:10:23 GordonG3kko has joined
 593 2013-08-26 15:18:29 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, makes sense, but is a good reminder
 594 2013-08-26 15:18:42 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, particularly since I'm building a forking pool server ;p
 595 2013-08-26 15:18:55 <jgarzik> (not that pool servers need much randomness, I think)
 596 2013-08-26 15:27:26 BTCOxygen has joined
 597 2013-08-26 15:28:22 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 598 2013-08-26 15:28:38 cads has joined
 599 2013-08-26 15:29:16 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
 600 2013-08-26 15:30:17 handle_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 601 2013-08-26 15:30:46 nsillik has joined
 602 2013-08-26 15:31:42 userioao has left ()
 603 2013-08-26 15:31:51 handle has joined
 604 2013-08-26 15:32:59 Anduck has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 605 2013-08-26 15:33:23 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 606 2013-08-26 15:34:38 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 607 2013-08-26 15:36:37 Anduck has joined
 608 2013-08-26 15:36:37 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
 609 2013-08-26 15:36:37 Anduck has joined
 610 2013-08-26 15:37:01 stevei has joined
 611 2013-08-26 15:39:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, had a random idea while reading CoinJoin
 612 2013-08-26 15:39:23 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, "bitcoin swap meet"
 613 2013-08-26 15:40:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, until automated p2p mixing and other fun exists, run a weekly forum thread where people contribute to building transactions with fixed-amount outputs, e.g. 10 people collaborate on a transaction that outputs 10x 1.0 BTC outputs
 614 2013-08-26 15:41:40 btcbtc has joined
 615 2013-08-26 15:41:54 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, <vendor hat: on>  BitPay definitely thinks fungibility is important, as is party-party privacy.  You don't want your business competitors snooping transactions you wish to keep private.
 616 2013-08-26 15:42:20 <gmaxwell> Sounds great! I'm not sure how much interest there is in manual participation as it is a bit of a PITA.  I'd kind of hoped for the taint-rich thread to do some of that before, but perhaps another effort would be good.
 617 2013-08-26 15:42:29 <jgarzik> especially in today's world of <cough ahem> well known countries engaging in industrial espionage
 618 2013-08-26 15:43:30 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, would it be possible to create a simple set of human, English instructions for people to collaborate together on transactions?  I don't know how well our system currently handles cat'ing together and signing things
 619 2013-08-26 15:43:35 johnsoft has joined
 620 2013-08-26 15:43:59 <jgarzik> instructions are free speech, and enable anyone to run a swap meet
 621 2013-08-26 15:44:12 <jgarzik> you could even have bitcoin swap meets in these Satoshi Squares, where people meet to trade
 622 2013-08-26 15:44:20 <jgarzik> just need Push Here Dummy instructions
 623 2013-08-26 15:44:57 <gmaxwell> We do not currently have a tool for merging independantly signed transactions. Well, petertodd may actually.  But otherwise we have the required tools, if not the desired userfriendlyness.
 624 2013-08-26 15:45:00 <jgarzik> could become another geek activity like pgp keysigning parties
 625 2013-08-26 15:45:11 <jgarzik> bitcoin mixing
 626 2013-08-26 15:45:31 <jgarzik> or, heh, have a "bitcoin mixer" -- come drink beer and mix bitcoins
 627 2013-08-26 15:46:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I hope that txtool will be able to do this, soon.  All this wonderful JS toolitude is blocked on my finishing P2SH support, which justmoon's bitcoinjs-server never had.  I really should be working on that, not a pool server ;p
 628 2013-08-26 15:47:30 <jgarzik> txtool, with bitcoind's help, already does multi-party transaction signing, where multiple parties pass around hex-encoded binary transactions, partially signed, for signing.
 629 2013-08-26 15:47:44 <jgarzik> soon, it will not be bound to bitcoind's wallet
 630 2013-08-26 15:47:48 <gmaxwell> I was pretty surprised by the couple "there is nothing that needs improving" responses in the thread.
 631 2013-08-26 15:47:51 <gmaxwell> speaking of that
 632 2013-08-26 15:48:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, few seem to be jumping on P2SH :/
 633 2013-08-26 15:49:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, even TD is unenthused and not motivated to add it to bitcoinj
 634 2013-08-26 15:50:07 <Belxjander> P2SH?
 635 2013-08-26 15:50:14 <gmaxwell> It's also quite old at this point, and there are still many things that won't send to it, it makes me wonder about how successful we can be at advancing the art...
 636 2013-08-26 15:51:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I don't yet, but I will soon
 637 2013-08-26 15:51:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, You know how it works… :)  Nobody updates anhything until a big site starts testing/using the feature.  Then it breaks everybody, and everybody upgrades in 24 hours.
 638 2013-08-26 15:51:38 <jgarzik> *anything
 639 2013-08-26 15:52:17 <gmaxwell> I wonder if when the reference software gets a BIP32 determinstic wallet mode if it shouldn't just always emit p2sh addresses.
 640 2013-08-26 15:52:17 <jgarzik> hopefully BitPay wanting to use P2SH will push Bitcoin Wallet (bitcoinj-based) to support them
 641 2013-08-26 15:52:36 <jgarzik> (conversely, we cannot put them into general use without that!)
 642 2013-08-26 15:52:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: +1
 643 2013-08-26 15:52:42 <jgarzik> :(
 644 2013-08-26 15:53:32 <jgarzik> Belxjander, pay to script hash.  pay to hash, and provide script + signature as input to the later spend.
 645 2013-08-26 15:53:33 <Belxjander> speaking of "BitCoin Wallet"s...
 646 2013-08-26 15:54:34 <Belxjander> jgarzik: so this allows for external encryption options as well for the keys?
 647 2013-08-26 15:54:37 <Belxjander> and to sign them using scripting?
 648 2013-08-26 15:54:44 <Belxjander> or am I mis-understanding something?
 649 2013-08-26 15:55:24 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: it moves control of the redemption rules to the reciever rather than the sender. It doesn't have anything to do with encryption.
 650 2013-08-26 15:55:45 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: that kinda makes sense
 651 2013-08-26 15:55:53 <gmaxwell> This makes things like the reciever of the funds able to choose to use multisignature accounts.
 652 2013-08-26 15:56:00 <Belxjander> since the person who received the "money" is the one who will eventually "redeem" it
 653 2013-08-26 15:56:17 <Belxjander> by using it for a purchase
 654 2013-08-26 15:56:25 <jgarzik> Belxjander, Normal transactions provide redemption rules.  Redemption TX provides a signature.  P2SH transactions provide hash(redemption rules).  P2SH redemption TX provides signature + redemption rules.
 655 2013-08-26 16:01:50 richcollins has joined
 656 2013-08-26 16:02:29 <sturles> Strange..  I use walletnotify for notification of new transactions to my wallet.  I just got a transaction where I got a notify at 0 confirmations (first spotted) and then at 2 confirmations!  No notify for first confirmation.  How can this happen?
 657 2013-08-26 16:02:55 <Luke-Jr> sturles: reorg
 658 2013-08-26 16:04:41 <gmaxwell> "Quantum tunneling"
 659 2013-08-26 16:05:43 Sunwicked has quit ()
 660 2013-08-26 16:06:11 <sturles> Ah, right.  So it wasn't confirmed on my side of the chain.  Then the other side grew one block longer, my client fetched both blocks and notify runs after all known blocks are downloaded?
 661 2013-08-26 16:08:36 <jgarzik> Comments of the day:   1.  I hate boost.     2. I'm too old for this shit.
 662 2013-08-26 16:09:26 <jgarzik> This pool server uses pipes, i.e. not sockets, so I need to either (a) get boost to listen to non-socket file descriptor using boost.asio's io_service, or (b) write an entire network engine, like I've done several times before.
 663 2013-08-26 16:09:52 <sturles> I think you should invent quantum multicast for the task.
 664 2013-08-26 16:09:53 <jgarzik> boost.asio is such crap.  things are much harder, require far more LOC than they should.
 665 2013-08-26 16:10:43 <gmaxwell> But in exchange for all those lines of code, you get binaries which are bloated and take a long time to execute!
 666 2013-08-26 16:10:50 <jgarzik> it's wonderfully async and data type neutral thanks to templates and very powerful…  and yet even the most simple TCP echo server requires 100-200 lines
 667 2013-08-26 16:11:08 <jgarzik> and requires nutty buffer schemes
 668 2013-08-26 16:11:21 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: could port Eloipool's networkserver
 669 2013-08-26 16:11:28 <gmaxwell> "and demands 12 mbytes of L2 cache for good performance."
 670 2013-08-26 16:12:17 <jgarzik> I'm leaning towards writing my own network engine.  Already did so several times in C, and in C++ it does make a few things easier.  but bleh.
 671 2013-08-26 16:14:27 Applica__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 672 2013-08-26 16:14:36 Application has joined
 673 2013-08-26 16:16:46 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 674 2013-08-26 16:19:10 <jgarzik> why must the world of software sucketh so?
 675 2013-08-26 16:19:21 Applicat_ has joined
 676 2013-08-26 16:19:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: to achieve full employment for programmers.
 677 2013-08-26 16:19:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: because most programmers suck?
 678 2013-08-26 16:20:39 <jgarzik> I'll rant tomorrow about runaway framework-itis, and iterating within one's sandbox to a myopically ridiculous degree
 679 2013-08-26 16:20:40 egis has joined
 680 2013-08-26 16:21:02 agath_pd has joined
 681 2013-08-26 16:21:23 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 682 2013-08-26 16:22:56 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 683 2013-08-26 16:23:41 <petertodd> jgarzik: if it makes you feel any better in electronics design the software sucks too
 684 2013-08-26 16:24:49 Odyessus has joined
 685 2013-08-26 16:25:30 dust-otc has joined
 686 2013-08-26 16:28:26 <k9quaint> jgarzik: what is the difference between software and hardware?
 687 2013-08-26 16:29:06 <k9quaint> If you run hardware enough times, it eventually breaks. If you run software enough times, it eventually works
 688 2013-08-26 16:29:31 <maaku> k9quaint: software is supposed to abstract hardware, making it simpler not more complex
 689 2013-08-26 16:29:40 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: or you lose your mind and decide that all behavior qualifies as "works"
 690 2013-08-26 16:29:49 <gmaxwell> maaku: HAHAHAHAH
 691 2013-08-26 16:30:46 <k9quaint> there are no bugs, only unscheduled features
 692 2013-08-26 16:31:30 jicksta has joined
 693 2013-08-26 16:31:45 <gmaxwell> We have much more powerful development and debugging tools and software is cheaper and easier to deploy and upgrade, as a result we produce software which has complexity far beyond anything else mankind produces. "Oh that? yea. That thing has 40 million active components."
 694 2013-08-26 16:31:58 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 695 2013-08-26 16:32:19 <k9quaint> more complex even than women?
 696 2013-08-26 16:33:00 <gmaxwell> Well, industrial goods at least. I wasn't counting ourselves.
 697 2013-08-26 16:33:12 <k9quaint> men aren't complex :P
 698 2013-08-26 16:34:06 <k9quaint> and fix the custom hardware forum, don't make me file a bug
 699 2013-08-26 16:34:19 <gmaxwell> "Man is the lowest cost, 150 pound, nonlinear, all-purpose
 700 2013-08-26 16:34:20 <gmaxwell> computer system which can be mass produced by unskilled labor."
 701 2013-08-26 16:34:41 <k9quaint> lowest cost? babies are freaking expensive :(
 702 2013-08-26 16:34:49 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 703 2013-08-26 16:35:14 <gmaxwell> well, it was true in the 1950s or so when that quote comes from. :P
 704 2013-08-26 16:35:29 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
 705 2013-08-26 16:35:53 <k9quaint> touche
 706 2013-08-26 16:36:05 <k9quaint> tis still a good quote
 707 2013-08-26 16:37:02 _jps has joined
 708 2013-08-26 16:41:14 moarrr has joined
 709 2013-08-26 16:41:53 digitalmagus2 has joined
 710 2013-08-26 16:45:25 justusranvier has joined
 711 2013-08-26 16:48:43 darkee_ has quit (Quit: darkee_)
 712 2013-08-26 16:49:22 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 713 2013-08-26 16:49:38 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
 714 2013-08-26 16:49:46 etotheipi_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 715 2013-08-26 16:51:02 lle has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 716 2013-08-26 16:53:31 _jps has joined
 717 2013-08-26 16:53:58 tsst has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 718 2013-08-26 16:54:56 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 719 2013-08-26 16:58:43 stevei has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 720 2013-08-26 16:59:56 <petertodd> k9quaint: heh, although something a lot of people don't appreciate is we can build hardware that has no wear mechanisms. For instance when a piston in a modern car engine does a cycle, there really isn't any wear: the tolerances are so good now that if there were any atoms getting dislodged or moved every cycle, pistons would wear out much faster than they actually do.
 721 2013-08-26 17:00:37 <k9quaint> particulate matter getting into the engine is what ruins them AFAIK
 722 2013-08-26 17:00:40 <petertodd> k9quaint: There are second order effects of course with quantum tunneling weirdness, but at the more basic level under controlled conditions we really can make mechanical things that last forever to a first approximation.
 723 2013-08-26 17:00:46 <petertodd> k9quaint: Exactly!
 724 2013-08-26 17:01:00 <petertodd> k9quaint: Hence why maintenance, oil changes, filters etc. is so important.
 725 2013-08-26 17:02:18 <petertodd> k9quaint: Another simple example is quartz oscillators: they really do have a little bit of quartz crystal, that's actually moving, yet the lifespan of that mechanical process is infinite to a first approximation.
 726 2013-08-26 17:03:20 <k9quaint> sure, but corrosion can take place etc
 727 2013-08-26 17:03:46 stevei has joined
 728 2013-08-26 17:03:46 <k9quaint> we actually have very little data on how modern materials function past 100 years
 729 2013-08-26 17:03:50 <petertodd> k9quaint: Well, again, we have materials these days where to a first approximation corrosion doesn't take place.
 730 2013-08-26 17:04:18 sserrano44 has joined
 731 2013-08-26 17:04:24 <k9quaint> can you make semi-conductors out of them?
 732 2013-08-26 17:04:37 <petertodd> k9quaint: That's actually not really true because we can analyze things to see if they have changed at all at the atomic level - if they don't change at all after 10 years, they aren't 0*10 still == 0
 733 2013-08-26 17:05:05 <petertodd> k9quaint: Semi-conductors are another example where you can have materials that don't wear out at all... although usually we push them hard enough that they do.
 734 2013-08-26 17:05:43 <k9quaint> the question becomes, how do you keep the oxidizers out
 735 2013-08-26 17:06:15 * k9quaint gets his dioxygen difluoride
 736 2013-08-26 17:06:28 <sturles> And temperature and radiation.  Not much will survive for long in space.
 737 2013-08-26 17:06:30 <petertodd> k9quaint: Seal things with materials that are already oxidized for instance.
 738 2013-08-26 17:06:41 <petertodd> sturles: Counter-example: Voyager probe
 739 2013-08-26 17:07:00 easy-iPad has joined
 740 2013-08-26 17:07:02 <sturles> Voyager was very analog and deigned specially for space.
 741 2013-08-26 17:07:11 <sturles> Not much consumer electronics there.
 742 2013-08-26 17:07:21 <petertodd> sturles: Anyway the effects of radiation are discrete - if the radiation can't overcome the minimum energy required to damage the material, nothing happens.
 743 2013-08-26 17:07:26 <k9quaint> well, out in space you don't worry so much about oxidizers and more about cosmic radiation
 744 2013-08-26 17:08:10 <theorbtwo> In space, no-one can hear your free electrons scream?
 745 2013-08-26 17:08:14 lle has joined
 746 2013-08-26 17:08:29 <sturles> A well placed nautron will make the atom into something it was not intended to be.
 747 2013-08-26 17:08:32 <petertodd> sturles: It's quite possible to design with consumer electronics and wind up with space-rated stuff, you just need to pick your electronics more carefully. Oddly too consumer stuff tends to be more reliable than "mil-spec" and "space-rated" parts because the inspection process does more damage than it finds. :(
 748 2013-08-26 17:09:12 <petertodd> sturles: Sure, which is why I keep on saying "to a first approximation" - quantum tunneling eventually makes everything melt, but the timescales are crazy.
 749 2013-08-26 17:10:47 <k9quaint> petertodd: if only you made my washing machine ;)
 750 2013-08-26 17:11:08 <petertodd> k9quaint: how much money ya got? :P
 751 2013-08-26 17:11:47 <k9quaint> all the money on earth, geologically speaking
 752 2013-08-26 17:12:44 <petertodd> well... in that case I can make you a pretty good washing machine. But it'll only be able to wash one bikini at a time and will weigh 10 tonnes. It will however last forever.
 753 2013-08-26 17:13:19 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 754 2013-08-26 17:13:25 <sturles> Will it work in space? :-)
 755 2013-08-26 17:13:28 <petertodd> *forever defined by my own lifespan
 756 2013-08-26 17:13:32 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 757 2013-08-26 17:13:45 patcon has joined
 758 2013-08-26 17:13:54 <petertodd> sturles: Not guaranteed to actually clean clothes if the boiling point of water is below ambient.
 759 2013-08-26 17:14:09 stevei has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 760 2013-08-26 17:14:27 <k9quaint> do I get to pick the person who will wear the bikini?
 761 2013-08-26 17:14:56 <theorbtwo> I actually was wondering the other day, vaugely relatedly -- they say that exposing clothes to vaccuum does a great job cleaning them, which is how they do it on the ISS.  Would it be useful/reasonable to do that on Earth, or does it need "zero g", too?
 762 2013-08-26 17:15:23 <petertodd> theorbtwo: they expose clothes to vaccuum on the ISS? link?
 763 2013-08-26 17:15:41 <petertodd> At best I'd expect that to just make them smell less by letting volitiles evaporate away.
 764 2013-08-26 17:17:46 easy-iPad has quit (Quit: Outta here?)
 765 2013-08-26 17:17:58 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 766 2013-08-26 17:18:51 <gmaxwell> petertodd: maybe the volitiles boiling off lubricate the dirt enough to release it too.
 767 2013-08-26 17:19:51 <theorbtwo> Or, perhaps, getting rid of the volitiles is the best they can do.
 768 2013-08-26 17:20:00 sserrano44 has joined
 769 2013-08-26 17:20:04 <theorbtwo> A little bit of googling, however, suggests that I'm just crazy.
 770 2013-08-26 17:20:18 <gmaxwell> maybe you dreamed it. I do that sometimes.
 771 2013-08-26 17:20:30 <petertodd> http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-11/nasa-commissions-laundry-machine-international-space-station
 772 2013-08-26 17:20:53 <petertodd> also, as a Canadian I have to link to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wcl6ZXrbj4
 773 2013-08-26 17:21:00 <theorbtwo> They just keep wearing them for several days at a stretch -- and then literally throw it away, mostly, on a Progress rocket that will burn up on reentry.
 774 2013-08-26 17:22:18 <petertodd> Sounds about right - I mean I've worn clothing for way longer than I should admit to on hikes.
 775 2013-08-26 17:32:28 agath_pd is now known as agath
 776 2013-08-26 17:32:30 shesek has joined
 777 2013-08-26 17:35:02 PrimeStunna has joined
 778 2013-08-26 17:40:52 <sytse> 'grime-encrusted nauts will wear underwear for 3-4 days and other items of clothing for months, before disposing of the dirty laundry by hurling it into the atmosphere to burn up in old Progress cargo capsules, attempting to wash it in a plastic bag or even - yuck - using it to grow plants in.'
 779 2013-08-26 17:40:57 <sytse> hmm
 780 2013-08-26 17:41:00 normanrichards has joined
 781 2013-08-26 17:44:25 <gmaxwell> CoinJoin bounty address is up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.msg2983911#msg2983911
 782 2013-08-26 17:46:24 * Luke-Jr notes BC signature is useless for sipa's :P
 783 2013-08-26 17:46:50 <Luke-Jr> and could give people the wrong impression that it can be validly used like that
 784 2013-08-26 17:47:15 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 785 2013-08-26 17:47:38 mempo has joined
 786 2013-08-26 17:47:48 toffoo has joined
 787 2013-08-26 17:49:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, sipa will give a pgp signature when he can.
 788 2013-08-26 17:51:01 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
 789 2013-08-26 17:51:36 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: any idea why BC.i thinks your transaction is "strange" ?
 790 2013-08-26 17:51:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ?
 791 2013-08-26 17:52:00 _jps has joined
 792 2013-08-26 17:52:33 PrimeStunna has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 793 2013-08-26 17:52:49 <gmaxwell> weird, its not saying it on reload.
 794 2013-08-26 17:53:24 <gmaxwell> the transaction to the coinjoin bounty that I could tell came from you because of the spending bfgminer donations
 795 2013-08-26 17:53:29 PrimeStunna has joined
 796 2013-08-26 17:53:54 arioBarzan has joined
 797 2013-08-26 17:54:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, I intentionally picked those coins :p
 798 2013-08-26 17:54:51 <BTCOxygen> lol
 799 2013-08-26 17:55:08 <Cusipzzz> i also picked 'grimey', mixed coins to send :)
 800 2013-08-26 17:55:20 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 801 2013-08-26 17:55:52 <Ry4an> Does anyone track really old coin-moves?  I've got something that hasn't moved since the $0.24 days that I'm going to consolidate and if it causes a ripple I wanted to watch. :)
 802 2013-08-26 17:56:30 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: someone might notice someone moving a bunch of old unmoved blocks... otherwise I doubt it.
 803 2013-08-26 17:57:03 <Cusipzzz> Ry4an: i monitor unspent block rewards from < 70k
 804 2013-08-26 17:58:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: gah, P2SH multisig with non-sorted pubkeys! other than that though, cool!
 805 2013-08-26 17:58:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: huh? i sorted them.
 806 2013-08-26 17:58:51 <gmaxwell> do you not like my lexical sorting?
 807 2013-08-26 17:58:58 <Ry4an> cool, I't about 0.5 BTC worth, so it's nothing that would show up on blockreward scale.  Just finally firing up an old archive drive.
 808 2013-08-26 17:59:42 daktak_ has joined
 809 2013-08-26 17:59:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, yeah I guess it's sorted, lexically rather than numerically...
 810 2013-08-26 18:00:25 Thepok2 has joined
 811 2013-08-26 18:00:49 jedunnigan has joined
 812 2013-08-26 18:01:06 Plinker has joined
 813 2013-08-26 18:01:42 Blxjander has joined
 814 2013-08-26 18:02:05 helo_ has joined
 815 2013-08-26 18:02:27 mrkent has joined
 816 2013-08-26 18:04:38 [\\\]_m has joined
 817 2013-08-26 18:04:38 Pasha has joined
 818 2013-08-26 18:04:55 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
 819 2013-08-26 18:05:09 pierre` has joined
 820 2013-08-26 18:05:17 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 821 2013-08-26 18:05:17 daktak has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 822 2013-08-26 18:05:18 Belxjander has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 823 2013-08-26 18:05:18 Plinker__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 824 2013-08-26 18:05:18 helo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 825 2013-08-26 18:05:18 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 826 2013-08-26 18:05:19 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 827 2013-08-26 18:05:19 Cory has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 828 2013-08-26 18:07:03 shesek has joined
 829 2013-08-26 18:07:12 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 830 2013-08-26 18:08:19 avyd has joined
 831 2013-08-26 18:08:19 avyd has quit (Client Quit)
 832 2013-08-26 18:09:33 Pasha is now known as Cory
 833 2013-08-26 18:09:52 helo_ is now known as helo
 834 2013-08-26 18:10:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: indeed, no access to my GPG key now
 835 2013-08-26 18:10:45 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i realized myself that the signature is useless, apart from proving that *someone* does have the private key for that pubkey
 836 2013-08-26 18:10:52 Phoebus_ has joined
 837 2013-08-26 18:11:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: I did a signmessage myself with my own key before building it... but then figured the best way to test was with a transaction.
 838 2013-08-26 18:11:38 <gmaxwell> I didn't put up the address until I successfully made a redeem txn (with Theymos).
 839 2013-08-26 18:11:48 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 840 2013-08-26 18:11:49 Phoebus_ is now known as Phoebus
 841 2013-08-26 18:11:49 Phoebus has quit (Changing host)
 842 2013-08-26 18:11:49 Phoebus has joined
 843 2013-08-26 18:11:56 Graet has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 844 2013-08-26 18:11:56 Graet has joined
 845 2013-08-26 18:12:07 michagogo has joined
 846 2013-08-26 18:12:27 mempo has quit (Quit: leaving)
 847 2013-08-26 18:12:36 mempo has joined
 848 2013-08-26 18:12:42 CheckDavid has joined
 849 2013-08-26 18:13:36 patcon has joined
 850 2013-08-26 18:15:00 CheckDavid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 851 2013-08-26 18:21:29 <arioBarzan> Currently bitcoin chooses the longer Block Chain. Could we have an optional feature that force miners (specially pools) to notify new blocks only with a kind of pre-specified unique identifier for that miner so that in future majority of users have the option to willfully block one specific miner ?
 852 2013-08-26 18:22:20 <lianj> what sense does that make?
 853 2013-08-26 18:22:34 CheckDavid has joined
 854 2013-08-26 18:23:32 <arioBarzan> It would help in cases like a powerful attacker tries to gain total control of network or in future tries to force arbitrary rules (for e.g. tx fee=0.5BTC)
 855 2013-08-26 18:23:55 <sturles> I just thought of a new scaling problem.  In 2100, there ought to be colonies on Mars.  One of the first things they will do is obviously to mine.  Bitcoins.  The maximum distance between Earth and Mars is 21 light minutes.  There is bound to be a lot of chain forking then, and the forks can become quite long before a consensus is reached.
 856 2013-08-26 18:24:36 <Ry4an> sturles: new to you maybe.  People have written speculative articles about interstellar block chain behavior.  You can probably track them down.
 857 2013-08-26 18:24:37 Subo1977_ has joined
 858 2013-08-26 18:24:45 <gmaxwell> Your message advocates a
 859 2013-08-26 18:24:45 <gmaxwell> (x) technical ( ) legislative ( ) market-based (x) vigilante
 860 2013-08-26 18:24:45 <gmaxwell> approach to fighting majority hashpower attack. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work.
 861 2013-08-26 18:24:48 <gmaxwell> (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea)
 862 2013-08-26 18:24:51 <gmaxwell> (x) attackers can't be made to cooperate with your scheme.
 863 2013-08-26 18:24:58 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 864 2013-08-26 18:25:10 <Cusipzzz> +kb gmaxwell spam :)
 865 2013-08-26 18:25:15 <Ry4an> gmaxwell: Ha!  You have a form based on the spam .... yeah that.
 866 2013-08-26 18:25:15 mempo has quit (Quit: leaving)
 867 2013-08-26 18:25:25 <sturles> Ry4an: Cool!  Otherwise this would be an interesting problem for some altcoin to solve.
 868 2013-08-26 18:25:44 mempo has joined
 869 2013-08-26 18:26:03 mempo has quit (Client Quit)
 870 2013-08-26 18:26:13 <Ry4an> sturles: how come everyone goes "idea" -> "altcoin implementation"?  The world needs more people who go "idea" -> "document / BIP"
 871 2013-08-26 18:26:42 mempo has joined
 872 2013-08-26 18:27:00 <sturles> Ry4an: I guess because it is easier to try out new concepts in an altcoin first.
 873 2013-08-26 18:27:02 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: if attacker with majority hashpower would not cooperate, then majority of nodes (obviously with less hashpower) will ignore node of attacker willfully
 874 2013-08-26 18:27:29 <gmaxwell> ... arioBarzan How do you identify the attacker?
 875 2013-08-26 18:28:03 <Cusipzzz> majority hashpower wins. it's not just a good idea, it's the law.
 876 2013-08-26 18:29:08 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: As I said by adding a new feature that forces all miners to first acquire a unique mining identity (maybe from majority of other nodes or something else) to be able to announce valid new blocks
 877 2013-08-26 18:29:52 <gmaxwell> oh, so step one you centeralize the system. Why not dispense with mining entirely then and just allow unique id holders to each produce one block in sequence round robbin style?
 878 2013-08-26 18:29:57 FabianB has joined
 879 2013-08-26 18:30:24 <Cusipzzz> maybe the bitcoin foundation<tm> could assign miner IDs<r>!
 880 2013-08-26 18:30:48 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 881 2013-08-26 18:30:59 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 882 2013-08-26 18:31:08 <arioBarzan> I am more worried about the transaction fees rather than 51% attack. A consortium of pools could put arbitrary transaction fees that could essentially block users from spending their coins with a reasonable fee.
 883 2013-08-26 18:31:28 <sipa> And how is that not a 51% attack?
 884 2013-08-26 18:31:42 <sipa> If they're not colluding, they cannot prevent the 49% from allowing lower fees.
 885 2013-08-26 18:31:43 c0rw1n has joined
 886 2013-08-26 18:31:55 <arioBarzan> in 51% attack I would be worried for double-spending.
 887 2013-08-26 18:31:58 <sipa> If they are, it is an attack and they are exploiting their majority hashrate.
 888 2013-08-26 18:32:10 <arioBarzan> but now my question is about the fees
 889 2013-08-26 18:32:43 <Luke-Jr> Ry4an: not everyone
 890 2013-08-26 18:32:58 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: okay, sure, thats bothered me in the past too... less now. But regardless, a concern doesn't imply that there is a solution. Anything where you assign IDs could itself be a replacement for mining as a consensus system.
 891 2013-08-26 18:33:22 <Ry4an> arioBarzan: if that's what the people who are actually processing transactions think that's what they want to be paid to processes transactions then the people who want to get transactions through need to either (1) pay it or (2) run their own processing systems that charge less.  In the later case any barrier you put in place to make it harder to become a miner (need to get a unique id from the current cartel) makes things worse not better.
 892 2013-08-26 18:33:30 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: that's by design (miners being able to set fees)
 893 2013-08-26 18:34:34 <gmaxwell> so, I think bc.i calls all payments to p2sh addresses "strange" when they show up on the realtime view.
 894 2013-08-26 18:34:41 toffoo has quit ()
 895 2013-08-26 18:34:54 <michagogo> gmaxwell: bc.i calls a *lot* of things "strange".
 896 2013-08-26 18:35:06 <jgarzik> gah
 897 2013-08-26 18:35:07 <michagogo> Pretty much anything but "pay to this address"
 898 2013-08-26 18:35:09 <jgarzik> json_spirit sucks too
 899 2013-08-26 18:35:18 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you already knew this.
 900 2013-08-26 18:35:31 <jgarzik> objects -- fundamentally key/value -- are internally represented as vector<Pair>
 901 2013-08-26 18:35:34 digitalmagus3 has joined
 902 2013-08-26 18:35:35 <michagogo> Hmm, how often are addr packets sent?
 903 2013-08-26 18:36:05 <jgarzik> one must perform an iteration, just to look up a value inside a json_spirit::Object
 904 2013-08-26 18:36:29 <jgarzik> surely "value = obj[key]" would be a form worth supporting, but no.
 905 2013-08-26 18:36:33 paracyst has joined
 906 2013-08-26 18:36:45 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 907 2013-08-26 18:38:03 <sipa> jgarzik: depends what container the object uses
 908 2013-08-26 18:38:09 <sipa> you can customize that, afaik
 909 2013-08-26 18:38:18 <sipa> but if it's a list, sure
 910 2013-08-26 18:38:35 <sipa> (not saying this is a good design choice, but it's at least an understandable result of it)
 911 2013-08-26 18:39:20 <jgarzik> sipa, even with a list, value=obj[key] is an API worth supporting
 912 2013-08-26 18:40:34 <sipa> jgarzik: that doesn't make sense
 913 2013-08-26 18:40:47 <sipa> if you want value=obj[key[, then use a type that supports it
 914 2013-08-26 18:41:03 <sipa> afaik the default is using vector, and json-spirit cannot change the definition of vector
 915 2013-08-26 18:43:05 da2ce7 has joined
 916 2013-08-26 18:43:30 sacrelege has joined
 917 2013-08-26 18:43:36 CobaltBlueD has joined
 918 2013-08-26 18:44:03 <jgarzik> sipa, a JSON Object is a fundamentally a key/value container.  What doesn't make sense is json_spirit::Object not supporting a key/value lookup in the API.
 919 2013-08-26 18:44:15 wboy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 920 2013-08-26 18:44:44 <sipa> jgarzik: json_spirit::Object is whatever you say it is
 921 2013-08-26 18:44:48 <sipa> and by default it's a vector
 922 2013-08-26 18:44:49 <jgarzik> one may change json_spirit's internal implementation to std::map, but that doesn't change the brokenness:  one must still dive into the guts of json_spirit::Value's implementation to perform a lookup
 923 2013-08-26 18:44:59 <sipa> there is no 'internal' implementation
 924 2013-08-26 18:45:05 <sipa> you chooise the container yourself
 925 2013-08-26 18:45:34 <sipa> (again, not saying this degree of flexibility is a good design, but it explains your observation)
 926 2013-08-26 18:46:07 digitalmagus3 is now known as digitalmagus2
 927 2013-08-26 18:46:10 <jgarzik> sure it is, Pair_impl etc.  that is the internal implementation.
 928 2013-08-26 18:46:24 <sipa> you're talking about Value, not Object
 929 2013-08-26 18:46:48 <sipa> the default implementation for Object is std::vector<Value>
 930 2013-08-26 18:48:19 Namworld has joined
 931 2013-08-26 18:48:25 <jgarzik> one may change json_spirit's internal implementation from std::vector<Value> to std::map, but that doesn't change the brokenness
 932 2013-08-26 18:48:43 <jgarzik> you still don't have an easy object[key]=value nor value=object[key].
 933 2013-08-26 18:48:44 <sipa> well, it's a choice for extreme flexibility at the cost of features
 934 2013-08-26 18:49:11 <jgarzik> Object is key/value, yet json_spirit does not provide a key/value API
 935 2013-08-26 18:49:22 <sipa> and i think the reason is so you can immediately parse into your own container type
 936 2013-08-26 18:49:23 <jgarzik> it's a pretty standard feature
 937 2013-08-26 18:49:46 <sipa> instead of parsing into some standard library types, and then converting (what we're doing)
 938 2013-08-26 18:50:49 <sipa> but perhaps they could provide a more feature-rich container type that does support that
 939 2013-08-26 18:50:59 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 940 2013-08-26 18:51:19 <sipa> hey, they do!
 941 2013-08-26 18:51:45 <sipa> Config_map
 942 2013-08-26 18:51:52 CobaltBlueD has left ("Just leaving….")
 943 2013-08-26 18:52:25 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 944 2013-08-26 18:52:44 digitalmagus2 has joined
 945 2013-08-26 18:52:44 <sipa> ... with the downside that it doesn't preserver order of key-value pairs in objects
 946 2013-08-26 18:53:48 <sipa> mConfig
 947 2013-08-26 18:54:12 <sipa> so, use mValue, mObject and mArray
 948 2013-08-26 18:54:14 <sipa> done!
 949 2013-08-26 18:55:04 CheckDavid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 950 2013-08-26 18:55:07 * jgarzik goes to see if Debian enabled those...
 951 2013-08-26 18:55:14 <sipa> 'enabled' ?
 952 2013-08-26 18:55:45 <sipa> it's just template magic
 953 2013-08-26 18:55:49 <arioBarzan> follow-up question regarding possible mandatory ID for miners. Could it be like miners would have to introduce a new block with a special coinbase message (which is currently any arbitrary data) which should hash to a digest smaller than a predefined number? It would make hard for a mining attacker to constantly introduce new mined blocks with different identities to prevent other nodes from block
 954 2013-08-26 18:55:49 <arioBarzan> ing him
 955 2013-08-26 18:56:11 <sipa> why do you want miners to have identities?
 956 2013-08-26 18:56:29 <sipa> and how would your solution prevent them from creating as many identities as they want?
 957 2013-08-26 18:56:49 <arioBarzan> because users have ability to block a hostile miner.
 958 2013-08-26 18:57:14 <sipa> no they don't
 959 2013-08-26 18:57:15 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 960 2013-08-26 18:57:28 <arioBarzan> at least it make expensive to calculate new IDs
 961 2013-08-26 18:57:58 ielo has joined
 962 2013-08-26 18:58:02 <petertodd> arioBarzan: yeah, maybe some kind of proof-of-work function, like a sha256^2 hash
 963 2013-08-26 18:58:09 <sipa> LOL
 964 2013-08-26 19:00:21 paracyst has joined
 965 2013-08-26 19:00:36 <arioBarzan> Currently the technology used by miners is dominated by western countries and if you guys want to mandate any transaction fee, then rest of countries have to accept that.
 966 2013-08-26 19:00:49 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: lolwut
 967 2013-08-26 19:01:12 <petertodd> THE RENT IS TOO DAMN HIGH!
 968 2013-08-26 19:01:14 <sipa> unless miners collude to block other miners, they cannot force any fee
 969 2013-08-26 19:01:40 <gmaxwell>      ^ a majority, in fact
 970 2013-08-26 19:02:01 <sipa> and making it harder to start as a new miner will only worsen that situation
 971 2013-08-26 19:02:08 <sipa> (which is what you're proposing)
 972 2013-08-26 19:03:10 <gmaxwell> and then if you decide you want to get rid of one, how do you get all users to do that atomically (if you don't the chain forks...).  You'd need a consensus mechenism.. I know, you could use a POW blockchain...
 973 2013-08-26 19:03:36 <gmaxwell> Yo Dawg, we used a POW Blockchain to build consensus for participation in your POW blockchain.
 974 2013-08-26 19:04:20 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: I hoped with such an ID people kick that hostile miner to his personal fork of blockchain even if his chain is longer.
 975 2013-08-26 19:04:33 <Luke-Jr> …
 976 2013-08-26 19:06:05 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Yo Dawg, I heard you liked POW Blockchains so I used a POW blockchain for consensus for your POW blockchain so you can use a POW blockchain to use a POW blockchain.
 977 2013-08-26 19:06:12 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: so we should ID miners by requiring someone to validate their government issued photo id?
 978 2013-08-26 19:07:19 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: no, they would need to choose a unique coinbase which its hash should have a pre-defined feature
 979 2013-08-26 19:07:26 <Luke-Jr> …
 980 2013-08-26 19:07:31 <arioBarzan> A POW coinbase
 981 2013-08-26 19:07:36 t7 has joined
 982 2013-08-26 19:07:43 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 983 2013-08-26 19:07:56 <arioBarzan> in contrast with current coinbase which is any arbitrary data
 984 2013-08-26 19:08:33 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: awesome. So now I start adding your token. Sweet.
 985 2013-08-26 19:08:34 <arioBarzan> for example BTCGuild now writes "This is mined by BTCGuild" in its coinbase tx
 986 2013-08-26 19:08:54 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, it could be a hash of a key and require a signature
 987 2013-08-26 19:08:56 temptestnick has joined
 988 2013-08-26 19:09:09 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: so do I. (Or do I?)
 989 2013-08-26 19:11:07 mappum has joined
 990 2013-08-26 19:12:07 temptest1ick has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 991 2013-08-26 19:12:43 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 992 2013-08-26 19:13:50 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: in any case, what you're proposing (ignoring specific miners) *is* a 51% attack
 993 2013-08-26 19:15:42 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: I did not thought about 51% before, since I was specifically concerned about tx fees.
 994 2013-08-26 19:15:45 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 995 2013-08-26 19:16:04 digitalmagus has joined
 996 2013-08-26 19:16:12 digitalmagus has quit (Changing host)
 997 2013-08-26 19:16:12 digitalmagus has joined
 998 2013-08-26 19:16:23 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: but your "concern" is what Bitcoin was designed to do
 999 2013-08-26 19:17:23 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1000 2013-08-26 19:18:30 <arioBarzan> I think if such a rule is put in place, it would not be necessarily a 51% attack. Because it it would only make expensive for a miner to find a new POW-valid ID if his current ID is blocked by other nodes.
1001 2013-08-26 19:18:57 <sipa> You would also make it harder for new miners to enter the mining market.
1002 2013-08-26 19:18:58 oleganza has joined
1003 2013-08-26 19:19:33 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1004 2013-08-26 19:19:59 <sipa> And since you're concerned about a politically-centralized cartel overtaking the mining business, it seems to me that you should make sure entering that market is as easy as possible.
1005 2013-08-26 19:20:46 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1006 2013-08-26 19:20:51 <arioBarzan> A reasonable level of difficulty would be rational. In recent two days at difficulty 1 I could mine 300 blocks (I forked my chain) on my laptop. So I should be able to also make a valid ID without so much difficulty
1007 2013-08-26 19:21:21 paracyst has joined
1008 2013-08-26 19:21:29 <sipa> ... you suggest that creating a new ID is a million times easier than creating a block?
1009 2013-08-26 19:21:33 <arioBarzan> however a hostile miner would need to repeat that POW effort over and over, and that would make it hard for him
1010 2013-08-26 19:21:48 <gmaxwell> fortune cookie I just got "only tears can bring a dreamer back to earth"
1011 2013-08-26 19:22:42 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: and what if I am a good miner, but I don't want to participate in your collusion?
1012 2013-08-26 19:22:50 digitalmagus2 has joined
1013 2013-08-26 19:24:05 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: It would be a feature like P2SH, if others accept it, then you (as a good miner who disagrees) also would be forced to accept
1014 2013-08-26 19:25:52 <gmaxwell> man, and you think the centeralization of pools is bad today.
1015 2013-08-26 19:26:09 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: I am not suggesting that the ID checkpoint be verified always, but the nodes themselves would have the option to willfully separate themselves with their own fork from an unwanted chain, even if that chain is longer
1016 2013-08-26 19:26:17 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: in any case you've continually ignored that even once you have your identifers, acting on them safely requires a consensus mechenism.
1017 2013-08-26 19:26:25 <sipa> ^
1018 2013-08-26 19:26:30 <sipa> you can't just ignore a block
1019 2013-08-26 19:26:38 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: such separation infers a centralized decision
1020 2013-08-26 19:26:40 <sipa> unless you find 51% of hashing power to do so along with you
1021 2013-08-26 19:26:53 <sipa> which would mean it requires a collusion attack on the network
1022 2013-08-26 19:27:08 <sipa> so all you're doing is (assuming it were possible) making it harder to mine anonymously
1023 2013-08-26 19:27:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: 51% hashpower, or rather "~100% of users"
1024 2013-08-26 19:29:06 blaeks has joined
1025 2013-08-26 19:29:12 ThomasV has joined
1026 2013-08-26 19:29:26 ielo has joined
1027 2013-08-26 19:29:27 <arioBarzan> Let's say there are 2 million users in poland and then BFL & Avalon provide US miners with a powerful mining tech. So Users in poland would have to willfuly separater their fork from US miners and avoid an unfair transaction fee which could be like 1BTC per transaction
1028 2013-08-26 19:29:47 <sipa> how is that 'unfair' ?
1029 2013-08-26 19:29:50 wboy has joined
1030 2013-08-26 19:30:07 <sipa> it may be expensive, and it may be unwanted
1031 2013-08-26 19:30:10 altamic has joined
1032 2013-08-26 19:30:16 <arioBarzan> it dould be polish nodes' decision
1033 2013-08-26 19:30:22 altamic has left ()
1034 2013-08-26 19:30:27 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: they are deciding to not use Bitcoin
1035 2013-08-26 19:30:29 <gmaxwell> I am giggling at avalon being your example of consolidation in the "west"
1036 2013-08-26 19:30:34 <Cusipzzz> sounds like they want PolandCoin
1037 2013-08-26 19:30:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I know, right? :p
1038 2013-08-26 19:30:50 <sipa> ^ PolandCoin is what you want
1039 2013-08-26 19:30:57 <michagogo> Odd... I've had wireshark running with a capture filter of "port 8333 or port 18333" since before starting my nodes, and in 310k packets I haven't had anything matching "bitcoin.addr"
1040 2013-08-26 19:31:16 johnsoft1 has joined
1041 2013-08-26 19:31:38 <arioBarzan> who cares if they decide to go their way. The polish mining pools might only charge a 0.01BTC tx fee so they may prefer to move to that chain as a cheaper market.
1042 2013-08-26 19:31:55 melvster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1043 2013-08-26 19:32:07 <sipa> so, they can
1044 2013-08-26 19:32:18 <Luke-Jr> they can do that without miner id
1045 2013-08-26 19:32:24 <Luke-Jr> just use a new genesis block and magic
1046 2013-08-26 19:32:34 <sipa> bitcoin offers a global consensus, which means a global marker
1047 2013-08-26 19:32:47 <sipa> that means globalization, but probably also a more useful payment system
1048 2013-08-26 19:32:56 <sipa> if you want a more localized one, feel free to do so
1049 2013-08-26 19:33:21 <Luke-Jr> you can even back your local-coin with Bitcoin
1050 2013-08-26 19:33:25 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1051 2013-08-26 19:33:39 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1052 2013-08-26 19:34:10 HM has left ()
1053 2013-08-26 19:34:20 <Cusipzzz> or gold /cue tinfoil hatters
1054 2013-08-26 19:34:22 HM2 has joined
1055 2013-08-26 19:34:33 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1056 2013-08-26 19:36:36 robocoin has joined
1057 2013-08-26 19:36:47 <arioBarzan> A more localized one wouldn't be desired obviously. I'm sorry if I mis-spoke with wrong examples. My idea was about ignoring just one miner which other nodes globally might agree that the hostile node should be blacklisted. it could be for 24hours or 1 week
1058 2013-08-26 19:37:23 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: how do you decide globally that he should be blacklisted?
1059 2013-08-26 19:38:05 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1060 2013-08-26 19:38:14 <sipa> and how do you make everyone agree on it?
1061 2013-08-26 19:38:16 <arioBarzan> If all miners have unique ID, then since the blockchain is public all people could see who is doing nasty stuff
1062 2013-08-26 19:38:21 johnsoft1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1063 2013-08-26 19:38:29 <sipa> you're not answering Luke-Jr's question
1064 2013-08-26 19:38:35 <Luke-Jr> I'm going to make 100000 ids just to vote every other miner out
1065 2013-08-26 19:38:58 johnsoft has joined
1066 2013-08-26 19:39:05 digitalmagus2 has joined
1067 2013-08-26 19:39:20 <arioBarzan> Gavin could send an alert to nodes, and ask them to not accept blocks from that ID for let say 1 week
1068 2013-08-26 19:39:20 <Cusipzzz> Luke-Jr: well, there would be a PoW, and...
1069 2013-08-26 19:39:34 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: ah, so King Gavin is the new Fed
1070 2013-08-26 19:39:56 <sipa> i think you fail to understand that bitcoin is a consensus system
1071 2013-08-26 19:39:56 <sipa> _every_ node has to agree, eventually, about the block history
1072 2013-08-26 19:39:56 <sipa> arioBarzan: and you don't like centralization??
1073 2013-08-26 19:40:32 <arioBarzan> King Gavin could ask, then we would evaluate his suggestion and agree if we like
1074 2013-08-26 19:40:41 CodeShark has joined
1075 2013-08-26 19:40:42 <Cusipzzz> "damn these guys are getting too many blocks, they need a 24hr timeout"
1076 2013-08-26 19:40:46 <sipa> how do you know everyone agree?
1077 2013-08-26 19:40:54 <sipa> in particular, how does the attacker agree?
1078 2013-08-26 19:40:58 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: and if you are wrong, then you lose all your own blocks
1079 2013-08-26 19:41:13 chorao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1080 2013-08-26 19:41:24 chorao has joined
1081 2013-08-26 19:41:24 chorao has quit (Changing host)
1082 2013-08-26 19:41:24 chorao has joined
1083 2013-08-26 19:42:24 <arioBarzan> the attacker will maybe get scared of poeple rising and stop charging us crazy fees like 1BTC per tx
1084 2013-08-26 19:42:37 <arioBarzan> :)
1085 2013-08-26 19:43:25 <sipa> if people are able to amass a 51% vote to ignore him
1086 2013-08-26 19:43:34 <Luke-Jr> I'm going to take my gun, go to King Gavin's house where I know he's defenseless because Australia prohibits self defense, and force him to issue an alert saying "we've basically already decided to ban gigavps, so agree or you lose out"
1087 2013-08-26 19:43:34 <sipa> why can't they just mine themself with that power?
1088 2013-08-26 19:44:12 <Luke-Jr> (hypothetically!)
1089 2013-08-26 19:44:42 <sipa> and accept reasonable fees
1090 2013-08-26 19:44:46 <Cusipzzz> Luke-Jr: he has pretty good aim with a boomerang I hear
1091 2013-08-26 19:44:51 <Luke-Jr> Cusipzzz: lol
1092 2013-08-26 19:45:18 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1093 2013-08-26 19:45:18 <gmaxwell> yea, they don't need guns in .au, the wildlife will kill you.
1094 2013-08-26 19:45:27 <sipa> and the dropbears
1095 2013-08-26 19:45:29 <sipa> and hoop snakes
1096 2013-08-26 19:45:51 <Luke-Jr> ok, I'm the US governemnt.
1097 2013-08-26 19:45:52 viperhr has joined
1098 2013-08-26 19:45:55 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1099 2013-08-26 19:45:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: why not be the chinese one?
1100 2013-08-26 19:46:00 chorao has joined
1101 2013-08-26 19:46:01 <Luke-Jr> I threaten Gavin to "accidentally" his house if he doesn't comply.
1102 2013-08-26 19:46:08 <Luke-Jr> …
1103 2013-08-26 19:46:12 chorao has quit (Client Quit)
1104 2013-08-26 19:46:15 <Luke-Jr> this is all BESIDES THE POINT <.<
1105 2013-08-26 19:46:29 chorao has joined
1106 2013-08-26 19:46:30 <gmaxwell> yea, this stopped being productive like hours ago.
1107 2013-08-26 19:46:56 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan wants to fight centeralization with arioBarzan /and slight of hand!/
1108 2013-08-26 19:47:00 pauld has joined
1109 2013-08-26 19:47:10 <gmaxwell> er with centeralization... stupid paste!
1110 2013-08-26 19:47:17 <Cusipzzz> he almost had me until Miner IDs :)
1111 2013-08-26 19:47:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: now I'm curious what you were pasting from! :P
1112 2013-08-26 19:47:53 <gmaxwell> there is all sorts of awesome problem solving you can do if you only add centeralization.
1113 2013-08-26 19:48:17 <sipa> like not needing miners
1114 2013-08-26 19:48:33 <gmaxwell> but if you're willing to do that you can just squint a little harder and eliminate mining. exactly.
1115 2013-08-26 19:48:33 <arioBarzan> A POW coinbase wouldn't kill anybody. It could be only be optional feature for those who want to be in a whitelist. Then nodes who as majority of users do not have hash power could make a consensus based on their evaluation, not only on a rule of longer chain.
1116 2013-08-26 19:49:01 <Luke-Jr> …
1117 2013-08-26 19:49:01 <Cusipzzz> O_o
1118 2013-08-26 19:49:08 <gmaxwell> you've still failed to state a consensus mechenism.
1119 2013-08-26 19:49:11 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: do you know what 'consensus' means?
1120 2013-08-26 19:49:38 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1121 2013-08-26 19:49:52 <arioBarzan> consensus mechanism would be = longer chain - (blocks of hostile miner)
1122 2013-08-26 19:50:11 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: you need a consensus to DEFINE "hostile miner"
1123 2013-08-26 19:51:01 <sipa> you need at least 51% of the hash power to agree that the miner is hostile
1124 2013-08-26 19:51:02 <sipa> and collude against him
1125 2013-08-26 19:51:11 <sipa> and if you don't know whether you have that 51% (hint: you never do), you risk losing your own blocks against him
1126 2013-08-26 19:51:13 chorao2 has joined
1127 2013-08-26 19:51:18 <Luke-Jr> you need 100%, if you don't want to hurt other unrelated innocent parties
1128 2013-08-26 19:51:20 <sipa> please stop this
1129 2013-08-26 19:52:49 <Luke-Jr> finally, how do you even know the miner's fee policy?
1130 2013-08-26 19:52:57 <Luke-Jr> you going to trust him to tell you the truth?
1131 2013-08-26 19:54:21 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1132 2013-08-26 19:55:02 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: for example BTCGuild doesn't accept transactions with less fee than 0.0001 but Eligius last time I checked had loser conditions on fees
1133 2013-08-26 19:55:09 <arioBarzan> looser*
1134 2013-08-26 19:55:22 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: you know that because we publish them
1135 2013-08-26 19:55:27 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: we could just as easily lie
1136 2013-08-26 19:55:45 <sipa> or worse, specifially block your transactions
1137 2013-08-26 19:55:54 <jgarzik> Is eligius the only pool [with any amount of hashpower] that accepts non-standard transactions?
1138 2013-08-26 19:56:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, that's a miner's right too :p
1139 2013-08-26 19:56:14 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I think midnightmagic might on his p2pool node too
1140 2013-08-26 19:56:17 <Luke-Jr> and petertodd
1141 2013-08-26 19:56:20 <sipa> Luke-Jr: agree, but it does mean you're unlikely to want to support them
1142 2013-08-26 19:56:25 <sipa> (which is also your right)
1143 2013-08-26 19:56:42 paracyst has joined
1144 2013-08-26 19:57:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm pretty sure that mm, pt, and I combined are now <1% hashpower.
1145 2013-08-26 19:57:15 <Luke-Jr> :/
1146 2013-08-26 19:57:26 <gmaxwell> so not meeting jgarzik's "with any amount"
1147 2013-08-26 19:57:59 <Luke-Jr> BTCGuild recently refused to prioritise someone's transaction for a bounty, because they "run pure"
1148 2013-08-26 19:58:00 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1149 2013-08-26 19:58:31 melvster has joined
1150 2013-08-26 19:58:50 abrkn has joined
1151 2013-08-26 19:58:52 <arioBarzan> for now the miners have 25 BTC reward. later they will charge much more, then bitcoin will become centralized and instead of federal reserve we would probably have mining pool consortium that would charge any fee that they like
1152 2013-08-26 19:58:55 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1153 2013-08-26 19:58:57 wboy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1154 2013-08-26 19:59:15 wboy has joined
1155 2013-08-26 19:59:17 idstam has joined
1156 2013-08-26 19:59:37 <sipa> if miners charge exuberant fees, then others have all reason to start up their own mining operations to avoid those
1157 2013-08-26 20:00:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: getting in the txn priority rpc stuff might be a good halfstep... e.g. even if a pool doesn't take non-standards if they could just RPC to poke a txn into their mempool, some would.
1158 2013-08-26 20:00:04 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1159 2013-08-26 20:00:04 <sipa> now please take this discussion elsewhere
1160 2013-08-26 20:00:14 <jgarzik> indeed.  -> #bitcoin
1161 2013-08-26 20:00:16 coeus has joined
1162 2013-08-26 20:00:40 coeus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1163 2013-08-26 20:00:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: priority stuff doesn't make you accept transactions you won't otherwise :/
1164 2013-08-26 20:00:44 <arioBarzan> but if we add ID feature we could separate ourself even if we don't have as big hash power as that consortium would have.
1165 2013-08-26 20:00:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I wonder if the code to do that were standard if they'd have been more willing.
1166 2013-08-26 20:00:46 <Luke-Jr> maybe it should
1167 2013-08-26 20:00:48 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1168 2013-08-26 20:00:50 coeus_ has joined
1169 2013-08-26 20:00:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I know, it could though.
1170 2013-08-26 20:01:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I suppose you'd want that to be a flag. :-/
1171 2013-08-26 20:01:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't think so?
1172 2013-08-26 20:01:53 <Luke-Jr> if you're prioritising it, you presumably want it to confirm
1173 2013-08-26 20:01:53 CheckDavid has joined
1174 2013-08-26 20:02:16 <gmaxwell> consider the case where you setup a webpage where people can solve captchas to get priority.. you really don't want that picking crazy ass transactions, and you also don't want to reproduce the sanity checking logic.
1175 2013-08-26 20:02:30 <Luke-Jr> hm
1176 2013-08-26 20:03:18 <gmaxwell> so I think "take this no matter what" and "up priortize this if I would have already taken it" are distinct cases.
1177 2013-08-26 20:06:21 PrimeStunna has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1178 2013-08-26 20:07:23 <petertodd> Hmm... so how non-standard are we talking about?
1179 2013-08-26 20:09:14 digitalmagus2 has joined
1180 2013-08-26 20:10:20 <gmaxwell> even luke doesn't take arbritary transactions.
1181 2013-08-26 20:10:49 ThomasV has joined
1182 2013-08-26 20:10:55 pauld has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1183 2013-08-26 20:11:18 <petertodd> Exactly, his accept-non-standard patch still filters out a lot of stuff - for instance nLocktime > 2*31-1, or nVersion!=1
1184 2013-08-26 20:12:18 pauld has joined
1185 2013-08-26 20:13:45 NightmareMoon has joined
1186 2013-08-26 20:14:08 Krellan_ has joined
1187 2013-08-26 20:14:11 Luna has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1188 2013-08-26 20:14:11 NightmareMoon is now known as Luna
1189 2013-08-26 20:14:21 mortikia has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
1190 2013-08-26 20:14:27 mortikia has joined
1191 2013-08-26 20:16:04 mapppum has joined
1192 2013-08-26 20:16:31 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1193 2013-08-26 20:17:01 arioBarzan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1194 2013-08-26 20:18:14 PrimeStunna has joined
1195 2013-08-26 20:19:58 btcbtc has joined
1196 2013-08-26 20:20:01 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1197 2013-08-26 20:21:08 jicksta has joined
1198 2013-08-26 20:21:12 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1199 2013-08-26 20:22:22 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1200 2013-08-26 20:22:49 pauld has left ()
1201 2013-08-26 20:23:13 <petertodd> reddit coinjoin link: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1l4t2l/coinjoin_bounty_fund_launched_to_make_bitcoin/
1202 2013-08-26 20:23:46 zer0def has joined
1203 2013-08-26 20:25:01 MobiusL has joined
1204 2013-08-26 20:29:05 wboy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1205 2013-08-26 20:29:19 wboy has joined
1206 2013-08-26 20:31:43 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
1207 2013-08-26 20:34:58 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1208 2013-08-26 20:35:59 jedunnigan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1209 2013-08-26 20:36:29 jedunnigan has joined
1210 2013-08-26 20:36:40 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1211 2013-08-26 20:36:47 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1212 2013-08-26 20:37:00 jedunnigan has joined
1213 2013-08-26 20:37:17 patcon has joined
1214 2013-08-26 20:37:56 jedunnig_ has joined
1215 2013-08-26 20:37:56 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1216 2013-08-26 20:38:36 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1217 2013-08-26 20:38:51 jedunnigan has joined
1218 2013-08-26 20:39:42 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1219 2013-08-26 20:39:42 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1220 2013-08-26 20:39:44 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1221 2013-08-26 20:39:47 jedunnig_ has joined
1222 2013-08-26 20:40:42 jedunnigan has joined
1223 2013-08-26 20:40:42 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1224 2013-08-26 20:41:33 sserrano44 has joined
1225 2013-08-26 20:41:36 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1226 2013-08-26 20:41:41 jedunnig_ has joined
1227 2013-08-26 20:41:45 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1228 2013-08-26 20:41:48 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1229 2013-08-26 20:42:13 jedunnigan has joined
1230 2013-08-26 20:42:32 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1231 2013-08-26 20:42:50 sserrano44 has quit (Client Quit)
1232 2013-08-26 20:42:50 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1233 2013-08-26 20:43:00 cut has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1234 2013-08-26 20:43:09 jedunnigan has joined
1235 2013-08-26 20:44:05 jedunnig_ has joined
1236 2013-08-26 20:44:06 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1237 2013-08-26 20:45:03 jedunnigan has joined
1238 2013-08-26 20:45:03 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1239 2013-08-26 20:45:18 wamatt has joined
1240 2013-08-26 20:46:10 jedunnig_ has joined
1241 2013-08-26 20:46:10 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1242 2013-08-26 20:47:05 jedunnigan has joined
1243 2013-08-26 20:47:05 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1244 2013-08-26 20:47:45 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
1245 2013-08-26 20:47:45 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1246 2013-08-26 20:48:00 jedunnigan has joined
1247 2013-08-26 20:48:03 ericmuyser has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
1248 2013-08-26 20:48:26 ericmuyser has joined
1249 2013-08-26 20:48:33 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1250 2013-08-26 20:48:54 Application has joined
1251 2013-08-26 20:48:59 jedunnigan has joined
1252 2013-08-26 20:50:05 jedunnig_ has joined
1253 2013-08-26 20:50:05 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1254 2013-08-26 20:51:00 jedunnigan has joined
1255 2013-08-26 20:51:00 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1256 2013-08-26 20:51:50 <helo> cue debate on using the bitcoin p2p network to arrange coinjoin transactions
1257 2013-08-26 20:51:50 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1258 2013-08-26 20:51:56 jedunnig_ has joined
1259 2013-08-26 20:52:43 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
1260 2013-08-26 20:52:44 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1261 2013-08-26 20:52:47 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1262 2013-08-26 20:52:55 jedunnigan has joined
1263 2013-08-26 20:53:03 <gmaxwell> helo: It's been suggested, but I think using a parallel topology makes more sense. ... simply because the nodes with wallets and the nodes generally serving the network don't have big overlap.
1264 2013-08-26 20:53:58 <gmaxwell> also, "in the bitcoin network" implies that we first pick just one way to do it, and I think that creates an unnecessary consensus bottleneck.
1265 2013-08-26 20:53:59 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1266 2013-08-26 20:54:01 jedunnig_ has joined
1267 2013-08-26 20:54:28 sserrano44 has joined
1268 2013-08-26 20:54:33 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1269 2013-08-26 20:54:55 paracyst has joined
1270 2013-08-26 20:54:56 jedunnigan has joined
1271 2013-08-26 20:55:52 jedunnig_ has joined
1272 2013-08-26 20:55:52 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1273 2013-08-26 20:57:12 jedunnigan has joined
1274 2013-08-26 20:57:12 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1275 2013-08-26 20:57:16 <helo> the frequency of transactions per person is probably so low that you have to have quite a big group of people participating in a coinjoin collective for anyone to be able to readily send joint transactions
1276 2013-08-26 20:58:07 jedunnig_ has joined
1277 2013-08-26 20:58:07 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1278 2013-08-26 20:58:11 darkee has joined
1279 2013-08-26 20:59:05 wboy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1280 2013-08-26 20:59:05 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1281 2013-08-26 20:59:12 jedunnigan has joined
1282 2013-08-26 20:59:20 wboy has joined
1283 2013-08-26 20:59:23 <helo> addressing the DOS part seems to dovetail nicely with the need for a widely used trust system
1284 2013-08-26 21:00:22 jedunnig_ has joined
1285 2013-08-26 21:00:22 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1286 2013-08-26 21:00:37 digitalmagus2 has joined
1287 2013-08-26 21:00:43 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1288 2013-08-26 21:00:57 <helo> but that kind of thing seems to be going nowhere
1289 2013-08-26 21:01:09 <helo> particularly a decentralized one
1290 2013-08-26 21:01:17 jedunnigan has joined
1291 2013-08-26 21:02:12 jedunnig_ has joined
1292 2013-08-26 21:02:12 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1293 2013-08-26 21:03:07 jedunnigan has joined
1294 2013-08-26 21:03:07 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1295 2013-08-26 21:03:26 <gmaxwell> I don't think that the dos stuff is that interesting. It's only a hardish problem in a fully decenteralized CoinJoin.  As much as I love cryptowank I feel that decenteralized CoinJoin is unlikely to materalize soon, but I'll happily eat crow if someone shows up with one.
1296 2013-08-26 21:03:32 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1297 2013-08-26 21:03:58 jedunnigan has joined
1298 2013-08-26 21:05:03 jedunnig_ has joined
1299 2013-08-26 21:05:03 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1300 2013-08-26 21:05:05 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
1301 2013-08-26 21:05:59 jedunnigan has joined
1302 2013-08-26 21:05:59 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1303 2013-08-26 21:06:38 Neozonz has joined
1304 2013-08-26 21:06:38 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1305 2013-08-26 21:06:54 jedunnigan has joined
1306 2013-08-26 21:07:50 jedunnig_ has joined
1307 2013-08-26 21:07:50 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1308 2013-08-26 21:08:24 <helo> ruling out decentralized coinjoin, the need to readily find others that want to send a transaction in a similar timeframe means completely centralized will happen.
1309 2013-08-26 21:08:24 jedunnig_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1310 2013-08-26 21:08:46 jedunnigan has joined
1311 2013-08-26 21:09:09 <helo> so i'm betting that bounty will go to the NSA when they build such a service :)
1312 2013-08-26 21:09:23 <c0rw1n> why? it's a ledger, like an exchange
1313 2013-08-26 21:09:24 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1314 2013-08-26 21:09:25 <gmaxwell> helo: what do you mean by completely centralized?  coinjoin is financial zero-trust inherently.
1315 2013-08-26 21:09:59 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1316 2013-08-26 21:10:03 <c0rw1n> with nlocktimed contracts you could announce them through bitcoin
1317 2013-08-26 21:10:04 jedunnigan has joined
1318 2013-08-26 21:10:31 <gmaxwell> c0rw1n: uh?
1319 2013-08-26 21:10:35 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1320 2013-08-26 21:10:37 moarrr has quit ()
1321 2013-08-26 21:10:58 jedunnigan has joined
1322 2013-08-26 21:11:16 <helo> completely centralized as in, someone releases a "tor coinjoin bundle" that connects to a hidden service that acts as a matchmaker for grouping transactions
1323 2013-08-26 21:11:45 <Luke-Jr> +b jedunnigan?
1324 2013-08-26 21:11:45 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1325 2013-08-26 21:11:49 <gmaxwell> helo: k sure, the only thing an evil server could do there is remember the input/output correspoance.
1326 2013-08-26 21:11:54 jedunnigan has joined
1327 2013-08-26 21:11:54 <c0rw1n> why would that service be centralized? it can be reading a blockchain, or a subset (colored coins)
1328 2013-08-26 21:12:06 <TheLordOfTime> ;;op
1329 2013-08-26 21:12:10 <gmaxwell> c0rw1n: I think you have no idea whats being talked about here.
1330 2013-08-26 21:12:15 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: all yours
1331 2013-08-26 21:12:18 <helo> where that hidden service is the centralized entity that keeps track of reputations to avoid dos
1332 2013-08-26 21:12:29 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1333 2013-08-26 21:12:42 <TheLordOfTime> gmaxwell, sorry for the random op, i don't normally op outside of -otc :P
1334 2013-08-26 21:12:52 jedunnigan has joined
1335 2013-08-26 21:12:54 <TheLordOfTime> but... broken IRC users?  I have no issue banforwarding :P
1336 2013-08-26 21:12:56 <TheLordOfTime> unless they evade
1337 2013-08-26 21:13:03 * TheLordOfTime bnroke the ban then.
1338 2013-08-26 21:13:31 <TheLordOfTime> ... stupid keyboard not working right...
1339 2013-08-26 21:13:35 jedunnigan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1340 2013-08-26 21:13:53 <TheLordOfTime> there we go.
1341 2013-08-26 21:15:03 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1342 2013-08-26 21:15:04 <Diablo-D3> lolwhat
1343 2013-08-26 21:15:44 sacrelege has joined
1344 2013-08-26 21:20:24 paracyst has joined
1345 2013-08-26 21:21:17 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1346 2013-08-26 21:21:18 Krellan__ has joined
1347 2013-08-26 21:22:42 <helo> pushed to the extreme, each block could be replaced by a single coinjoin transaction?
1348 2013-08-26 21:23:51 <helo> can you spend outputs in the same transaction that they are created?
1349 2013-08-26 21:24:45 <Luke-Jr> no
1350 2013-08-26 21:25:07 <Luke-Jr> you don't know the txid (for the input) until the transaction is made
1351 2013-08-26 21:25:16 <helo> hah good point
1352 2013-08-26 21:25:24 <Luke-Jr> so it's not so much a rule, as it is a "you just.. can't.. do it."
1353 2013-08-26 21:25:58 <gmaxwell> well, if you might have done that then you could just skip the inner transaction.
1354 2013-08-26 21:26:16 <Luke-Jr> true
1355 2013-08-26 21:26:17 <helo> right
1356 2013-08-26 21:26:27 <gmaxwell> might be need to have some "transaction reassignment" stuff go along with coinjoin.
1357 2013-08-26 21:26:54 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1358 2013-08-26 21:27:20 <gmaxwell> E.g. some convention where you pay someone and they're like 'oh, I'm spending it here right away, feel free to skip over me' and you compute a replacement transaction which just reaches the same ultimate state...
1359 2013-08-26 21:27:41 Krellan__ is now known as Krellan_
1360 2013-08-26 21:27:46 <helo> sounds ripplish
1361 2013-08-26 21:27:53 <Luke-Jr> helo: that's not bad
1362 2013-08-26 21:27:56 <gmaxwell> a really smart kind of child pay for parent could handle that replacement.
1363 2013-08-26 21:28:19 <gmaxwell> "oh this group of txn achieves the same final state as this other, and it pays more fee per byte"
1364 2013-08-26 21:30:58 Sunwicked has joined
1365 2013-08-26 21:33:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: and let me guess, it's NP-complete?
1366 2013-08-26 21:33:33 wboy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1367 2013-08-26 21:33:55 wboy has joined
1368 2013-08-26 21:34:11 <helo> are the motivations of miners in line with users regarding coinjoin?
1369 2013-08-26 21:34:25 <helo> miners want a small blockchain, but they presumably want a lot of tx fees
1370 2013-08-26 21:35:01 <helo> i guess above all they want widespread use of bitcoin
1371 2013-08-26 21:35:23 <gmaxwell> helo: the maximum reduction is not huge in any case, and besides: miners can't really do anything about this. The transactions look normal.
1372 2013-08-26 21:35:30 <helo> which something like coinjoin could aid
1373 2013-08-26 21:35:33 <Luke-Jr> helo: offer the same fee for the reduced size
1374 2013-08-26 21:35:45 <Luke-Jr> if it concerns you
1375 2013-08-26 21:35:49 <helo> gmaxwell: i was thinking more along the lines of miners taking a role in performing coinjoin services
1376 2013-08-26 21:35:54 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1377 2013-08-26 21:36:04 <gmaxwell> helo: I think it's generally in their interest.
1378 2013-08-26 21:37:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: approximate solutions are good enough.
1379 2013-08-26 21:38:30 paracyst has joined
1380 2013-08-26 21:38:57 <gmaxwell> I suppose that kind of makes another argument for using near time locked transactions... you could use the locking window to perform transaction cut-through.
1381 2013-08-26 21:40:13 <gmaxwell> e.g. if there is a transaction whos inputs are pending unconfirmed, and who has outputs which are pending unconfirmed.. and the inner transaction author consents, the original authors could just coinjoin a replacement for the inner transaction that cuts through it.
1382 2013-08-26 21:40:30 chorao2 has left ()
1383 2013-08-26 21:40:33 chorao has joined
1384 2013-08-26 21:42:30 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1385 2013-08-26 21:43:24 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1386 2013-08-26 21:44:27 nomailing has joined
1387 2013-08-26 21:46:00 <gmaxwell> would be interesting to parse through the chain and see how much compression you could get if you assume all txn in a block could have been cut-through.
1388 2013-08-26 21:46:18 banghouse has joined
1389 2013-08-26 21:46:23 <gmaxwell> Probably not much because sane wallets don't normally spend unconfirmed inputs.
1390 2013-08-26 21:47:10 Kent_ has joined
1391 2013-08-26 21:48:08 patcon has joined
1392 2013-08-26 21:50:26 <helo> s/in a block/ever/
1393 2013-08-26 21:50:50 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1394 2013-08-26 21:52:09 <gmaxwell> well.. ever would let you compress the whole blockchain to like 300mbytes. :P
1395 2013-08-26 21:52:17 ericmuyser has joined
1396 2013-08-26 21:52:45 awishformore has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1397 2013-08-26 21:52:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: significantly more, i think
1398 2013-08-26 21:52:55 <helo> "bytes_serialized" : 238056559 ?
1399 2013-08-26 21:53:10 <sipa> as the utxo format is much more space-efficient
1400 2013-08-26 21:53:12 <helo> plus coinbase transactions, i guess?
1401 2013-08-26 21:53:16 <sipa> and only contains outputs
1402 2013-08-26 21:54:21 <sipa> hmm, i guess the fully-cut-through version would be one transaction consuming all coinbase outputs, and sending everything to its utxo state outputs
1403 2013-08-26 21:54:35 <sipa> broken up to not exceed block limits
1404 2013-08-26 21:54:54 <gmaxwell> yea, I was ignoring block limits.
1405 2013-08-26 21:55:30 <gmaxwell> it would just be one transaction that consumes all the consumed blocks, and pays to all the outputs. :P and yea, it would be somewhat larger than ultraprune, but waaaay smaller than the blockchain.
1406 2013-08-26 21:58:27 <Scrat> why is the lereddit CoinJoin post getting downvotes? lol
1407 2013-08-26 21:58:36 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1408 2013-08-26 21:58:54 <gmaxwell> Scrat: yea, blows my mind.
1409 2013-08-26 21:59:21 <Cusipzzz> Scrat: people are morons
1410 2013-08-26 21:59:55 wamatt has quit (Quit: wamatt)
1411 2013-08-26 22:00:14 <gmaxwell> Scrat: some of the response on bitcointalk suggests to me that CoinJoin violates some people's preferred position that bitcoin is already uberanonymous.
1412 2013-08-26 22:00:29 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1413 2013-08-26 22:01:19 wboy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1414 2013-08-26 22:01:49 <sipa> people disliked the payment protocol because it violated that model as well
1415 2013-08-26 22:02:05 <sipa> even though if anything, it's a huge win for privacy
1416 2013-08-26 22:02:11 wboy has joined
1417 2013-08-26 22:03:00 mappum has joined
1418 2013-08-26 22:06:26 <Scrat> wrt privacy: cloudflare must have a really nice address-to-IP list by now
1419 2013-08-26 22:06:35 <Scrat> who doesn't check their address on b.i? :p
1420 2013-08-26 22:06:41 <Scrat> address(es)
1421 2013-08-26 22:08:14 <lianj> probably to incompetent to actually track them :P
1422 2013-08-26 22:08:14 <lianj> *too
1423 2013-08-26 22:10:11 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, well me for one
1424 2013-08-26 22:12:07 AusBitBank_ has joined
1425 2013-08-26 22:12:18 <nanotube> cloudflare doesn't need to track, when nsa does such a great job.
1426 2013-08-26 22:13:29 <lianj> don't they do it through services like that?
1427 2013-08-26 22:13:31 <devrandom> gmaxwell: sipa: Luke-Jr: possibly of interest http://compcert.inria.fr/compcert-C.html
1428 2013-08-26 22:14:05 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: C90 is obsolete and not C++ <.<
1429 2013-08-26 22:14:31 mempo has quit (Changing host)
1430 2013-08-26 22:14:31 mempo has joined
1431 2013-08-26 22:14:36 <Luke-Jr> and it's not really even C90 :/
1432 2013-08-26 22:16:19 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1433 2013-08-26 22:18:27 <gmaxwell> devrandom: yea, I've used compcert. lack of a useable long long is a real pita.
1434 2013-08-26 22:19:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: I posted the cutthrough idea, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281848.0  not that it matters much... kinda cute though.
1435 2013-08-26 22:20:51 <devrandom> I wonder how likely it is to add C
1436 2013-08-26 22:20:54 <devrandom> errr
1437 2013-08-26 22:20:56 <devrandom> C++ to it
1438 2013-08-26 22:21:21 <devrandom> since C++ is mostly syntactic sugar on top of C
1439 2013-08-26 22:21:24 <gmaxwell> devrandom: I'm sure they'd gladly do it with about 10 million in funding.
1440 2013-08-26 22:21:31 <devrandom> heh
1441 2013-08-26 22:21:39 <sipa> i'm not sure i would
1442 2013-08-26 22:21:40 normanrichards has joined
1443 2013-08-26 22:21:43 malmoe has joined
1444 2013-08-26 22:22:01 <sipa> just a formal specification of C++ must be horrible compared to C
1445 2013-08-26 22:22:15 <gmaxwell> Compcert was quite an accomplishment, C++ is a LOT more complicated. The spec is like 50x larger, and I suspect the complexity growth is not linear with the spec size..
1446 2013-08-26 22:22:27 <devrandom> multiple inheritance would be a pain
1447 2013-08-26 22:22:35 <devrandom> as well as exceptions
1448 2013-08-26 22:22:35 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1449 2013-08-26 22:24:17 <sipa> and templates...
1450 2013-08-26 22:25:21 <tgs3> and external templates :&
1451 2013-08-26 22:25:26 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1452 2013-08-26 22:25:30 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1453 2013-08-26 22:26:05 Application has joined
1454 2013-08-26 22:26:48 Applicat_ has joined
1455 2013-08-26 22:29:14 wboy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1456 2013-08-26 22:29:25 wboy has joined
1457 2013-08-26 22:29:34 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1458 2013-08-26 22:30:04 patcon has joined
1459 2013-08-26 22:30:20 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1460 2013-08-26 22:32:23 yubrew has joined
1461 2013-08-26 22:34:40 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1462 2013-08-26 22:40:36 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1463 2013-08-26 22:41:42 CodeShark has joined
1464 2013-08-26 22:43:58 btsec has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
1465 2013-08-26 22:47:12 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1466 2013-08-26 22:47:45 Guest__ has joined
1467 2013-08-26 22:53:59 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
1468 2013-08-26 22:55:29 Kent_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1469 2013-08-26 22:56:16 Blxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1470 2013-08-26 22:56:53 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
1471 2013-08-26 22:59:18 mrkent has joined
1472 2013-08-26 23:02:45 wboy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1473 2013-08-26 23:03:17 wboy has joined
1474 2013-08-26 23:05:21 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1475 2013-08-26 23:05:40 malmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1476 2013-08-26 23:06:30 one_zero has joined
1477 2013-08-26 23:07:27 toffoo has joined
1478 2013-08-26 23:08:52 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1479 2013-08-26 23:12:34 ericmuyser has joined
1480 2013-08-26 23:12:34 ericmuyser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1481 2013-08-26 23:12:34 temptestnick has quit (Quit: leaving)
1482 2013-08-26 23:12:34 Belxjander has joined
1483 2013-08-26 23:22:01 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1484 2013-08-26 23:22:32 btcbtc has joined
1485 2013-08-26 23:23:10 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen td
1486 2013-08-26 23:23:10 <gribble> td was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 6 days, 7 hours, 21 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <TD> from a portability perspective it loses .... apparently building pond on a mac is a nightmare
1487 2013-08-26 23:23:38 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1488 2013-08-26 23:26:10 mrkent has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1489 2013-08-26 23:28:40 GMP has joined
1490 2013-08-26 23:28:49 Sunwicked has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1491 2013-08-26 23:31:10 temptestnick has joined
1492 2013-08-26 23:31:41 mrkent has joined
1493 2013-08-26 23:32:25 ericmuyser has joined
1494 2013-08-26 23:33:26 coingenuity has joined
1495 2013-08-26 23:35:20 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1496 2013-08-26 23:40:32 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1497 2013-08-26 23:43:29 OldEnK has joined
1498 2013-08-26 23:45:16 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1499 2013-08-26 23:45:40 gst has joined
1500 2013-08-26 23:46:19 gdbz_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1501 2013-08-26 23:46:19 ralphtheninja has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1502 2013-08-26 23:46:27 ralphtheninja has joined
1503 2013-08-26 23:47:09 robocoin has quit (Quit: .)
1504 2013-08-26 23:50:11 gdbz has joined
1505 2013-08-26 23:50:26 tnkflx has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1506 2013-08-26 23:53:55 temptestnick has quit (Quit: leaving)
1507 2013-08-26 23:56:13 temptestnick has joined
1508 2013-08-26 23:56:41 temptestnick has quit (Client Quit)
1509 2013-08-26 23:58:24 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1510 2013-08-26 23:59:41 joepie91 has joined