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  59 2013-08-27 01:25:44 <maaku> is it possible to get (and mark used) a reserve key from the API?
  60 2013-08-27 01:26:17 <maaku> or, alternatively, call getnextaddress then remove the address from the address book?
  61 2013-08-27 01:26:26 <maaku> how would I remove it?
  62 2013-08-27 01:27:30 <gmaxwell> submit patch to remove the addrbook and make it work like armory. :P
  63 2013-08-27 01:27:56 <maaku> heh
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  92 2013-08-27 02:05:29 <Diablo-D3> http://intercaloninterstates.org/
  93 2013-08-27 02:07:39 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, wat
  94 2013-08-27 02:07:50 <phantomcircuit> please tell me someone actually implemented that
  95 2013-08-27 02:07:51 <phantomcircuit> lol
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 148 2013-08-27 03:59:15 <sipa> maaku: getnewaddress will get an address from the pool and mark it used
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 190 2013-08-27 05:32:14 <maaku> sipa: when i call getnewaddress, the new address shows up in the address book, which is annoying
 191 2013-08-27 05:32:18 <maaku> is there a way around that?
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 193 2013-08-27 05:32:44 <warren> Is the 0.8.2+ getwork problem filed or described anywhere?  I think doublec and a few others have mentioned parts of it.
 194 2013-08-27 05:33:34 <maaku> i want the address to act like a change address - marked as used, part of the wallet, but otherwise ignored
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 257 2013-08-27 07:36:37 <sipa> maaku: there is no wqy to remove addresses in any case
 258 2013-08-27 07:37:16 <sipa> maaku: removing them fdrom just the address book shouldn't hurt, but i don't think anyone bothered
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 286 2013-08-27 08:32:31 <Freebitcoinslist> is anyone here awake?
 287 2013-08-27 08:32:56 whuzit has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
 288 2013-08-27 08:33:36 <Freebitcoinslist> I need some help with the BTC source
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 290 2013-08-27 08:36:28 <Freebitcoinslist> anyone here
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 293 2013-08-27 08:41:27 <fanquake> Freebitcoinslist Just ask your question
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 295 2013-08-27 08:44:02 <Freebitcoinslist> I am looking into releasing a new coin and would like a lil help into where in the source code where to change the Algo used for the Coin as I am wanting to try this coin with a total different algo one that is not used on any coin and i am looking for any papers or sites that might help me reprogram the source to release this coin on the testnet
 296 2013-08-27 08:48:43 <gavinandresen> …. maybe we should change the channel topic to "No altcoin support"
 297 2013-08-27 08:50:41 <Freebitcoinslist> Sorry I am wanting to do this on a private test net just to better understand BTC and have some fun
 298 2013-08-27 08:51:18 <Freebitcoinslist> and Nice to meet you Gavin I have read alot of articles about you and some of the comments you have made about BTC
 299 2013-08-27 08:52:19 <gavinandresen> Freebitcoinslist: the bits of the source code that are if (TestNet()) … are a good place to start.
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 302 2013-08-27 08:52:56 <gavinandresen> I believe the bitcoinj source code is easier to follow, too. The reference code wasn't written to be easy to modify.
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 305 2013-08-27 08:54:22 <Freebitcoinslist> so there it will let me change the algo used instead of Sha-256?
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 307 2013-08-27 08:54:29 <gavinandresen> nope
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 310 2013-08-27 08:56:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: opinion about leveldb 1.13 in 0.8.4?
 311 2013-08-27 08:56:53 <gavinandresen> sipa: no opinion yet-- what do you think?
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 313 2013-08-27 08:57:45 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'd wait on more reports of corruption on osx, but if there is no clear "problem is gone!", i think we should try whatever can help to reduce the problem
 314 2013-08-27 08:57:52 <sipa> (1.13 has some extra sync() calls)
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 316 2013-08-27 08:58:29 <gavinandresen> I should run a stress-test overnight; something like kill -9 bitcoind, then restart, then sleep 600…..
 317 2013-08-27 08:58:31 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what change was made to fix that?
 318 2013-08-27 08:58:53 <sipa> it obviously cannot fix the mid-runtime corruptions that we sometimes see
 319 2013-08-27 08:59:10 <sipa> but perhaps the ones from a system going in standby or unclean shutdown
 320 2013-08-27 08:59:40 <gavinandresen> mmm.  I'd really like to get an even-somewhat-reproduceable test case
 321 2013-08-27 08:59:45 <sipa> yes, me too
 322 2013-08-27 09:00:59 <gavinandresen> ok, I'll run stress tests on 0.8.3 and git HEAD tonight, see if I can get one or both to corrupt
 323 2013-08-27 09:01:11 <sipa> 0.8.4 or git head?
 324 2013-08-27 09:01:26 <gavinandresen> shouldn't be much difference, yes?
 325 2013-08-27 09:01:27 <phantomcircuit> what filesystems has that corruption been seen on?
 326 2013-08-27 09:01:37 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: OSX
 327 2013-08-27 09:01:37 <Diablo-D3> which corruption?
 328 2013-08-27 09:01:40 <Diablo-D3> the sleep corruption?
 329 2013-08-27 09:01:40 <Diablo-D3> osx
 330 2013-08-27 09:01:52 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i don't think there is a "that corruption" - i've heard it reported on debian, windows and OSX
 331 2013-08-27 09:01:53 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, right but are we 100% sure they were all UDF?
 332 2013-08-27 09:02:01 <sipa> but there may be several issues here
 333 2013-08-27 09:02:10 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 334 2013-08-27 09:02:17 <sipa> ... UDF?
 335 2013-08-27 09:02:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, well the cursory review of leveldb consistency schema scared me quite a bit
 336 2013-08-27 09:02:21 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: you mean hfs+ I think
 337 2013-08-27 09:02:23 <gavinandresen> UDF… unidentified different files?
 338 2013-08-27 09:02:32 <sipa> UDF is the filesystem used on DVD's
 339 2013-08-27 09:02:38 <phantomcircuit> universal disk format it's dvd/cds and stuff
 340 2013-08-27 09:02:40 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: UDF is the new file system that replaced iso9660
 341 2013-08-27 09:02:45 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i know
 342 2013-08-27 09:02:48 <phantomcircuit> also
 343 2013-08-27 09:02:50 <phantomcircuit> i meant HFS
 344 2013-08-27 09:02:52 <Diablo-D3> hfs+ is what osx uses
 345 2013-08-27 09:03:04 <Diablo-D3> did you know hsf+ supports volume sizes up to 8 exabytes?
 346 2013-08-27 09:03:12 <gavinandresen> there are almost certainly multiple bug/problems/hardware issues here
 347 2013-08-27 09:03:13 <phantomcircuit> i did not
 348 2013-08-27 09:03:22 <Diablo-D3> I dont get the point, its sure as hell no zfs
 349 2013-08-27 09:03:23 <phantomcircuit> example of things leveldb doesn't protect against
 350 2013-08-27 09:03:36 <gavinandresen> … but we've seen lots of reports of leveldb corruption on OSX, and I've seen it twice on otherwise reliable machines
 351 2013-08-27 09:03:40 <phantomcircuit> phantom writes, shorn writes, relocated writes, serializable write failures
 352 2013-08-27 09:03:47 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: btw, I said this the other day but you wernt here
 353 2013-08-27 09:03:54 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: osx has apis to deal with power management
 354 2013-08-27 09:04:06 <sipa> phantomcircuit: its writes are synchronized
 355 2013-08-27 09:04:06 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: for the short term, the fix is to close the files and then reopen them on wake
 356 2013-08-27 09:04:08 <phantomcircuit> most of which could be solved by adding a sequentially incrementing id to journal entries
 357 2013-08-27 09:04:15 <Diablo-D3> sipa: that may not be true
 358 2013-08-27 09:04:21 <Diablo-D3> sipa: its REQUESTING sync writes
 359 2013-08-27 09:04:22 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah except actual disks are stupid and make mistakes all the time
 360 2013-08-27 09:04:25 <Diablo-D3> doesnt mean osx doesnt lie
 361 2013-08-27 09:04:27 <sipa> Diablo-D3: that's not what i mean
 362 2013-08-27 09:04:37 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i mean it never writes data that depends on yet unwritten data
 363 2013-08-27 09:04:41 <Diablo-D3> ahh
 364 2013-08-27 09:04:45 <Diablo-D3> sipa: but it cant tell
 365 2013-08-27 09:04:56 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i know i went through the journal schema a while ago
 366 2013-08-27 09:04:58 <Diablo-D3> since there is no hardware atomic transactional layer the whole way into the drive
 367 2013-08-27 09:05:13 <sipa> still
 368 2013-08-27 09:05:13 <phantomcircuit> the problem is relying 100% on writes to happen in the correct order is a bad idea
 369 2013-08-27 09:05:23 <Diablo-D3> which I dont know why we dont have that yet
 370 2013-08-27 09:05:26 <Diablo-D3> thats just asking for trouble
 371 2013-08-27 09:05:30 <sipa> all that cannot explain why databases corrupt right in the middle of execution
 372 2013-08-27 09:05:33 <sipa> during a reindex
 373 2013-08-27 09:05:41 <sipa> unless hardware error
 374 2013-08-27 09:05:46 <Diablo-D3> sipa: maybe a legitimate software bug?
 375 2013-08-27 09:05:53 <sipa> Diablo-D3: that's what i want to know
 376 2013-08-27 09:06:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i was going to say that actually it could explain a lot of things
 377 2013-08-27 09:06:04 <Diablo-D3> I mean, if osx really had this corrupt on sleep bug
 378 2013-08-27 09:06:10 <Diablo-D3> other people with other software would have noticed it
 379 2013-08-27 09:06:27 <sipa> well bitcoin does put some unusual load on desktop systems
 380 2013-08-27 09:06:29 <Diablo-D3> and I know a few osx devs, they've never mentioned such an oddity
 381 2013-08-27 09:06:38 <Diablo-D3> and Ive heard some pretty scary stories from them on other osx aspects
 382 2013-08-27 09:07:15 <phantomcircuit> sipa, adding a sequential id to journal entries would be a fairly simple way to identify if this is being caused by some bizarre error outside bitcoin or if it's an internal logic issue
 383 2013-08-27 09:07:25 darknyan has joined
 384 2013-08-27 09:07:41 <sipa> phantomcircuit: agree, that's something i don't understand
 385 2013-08-27 09:07:47 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, that fdatasync exists but does nothing says pretty much all i need to know about how os x actually works :/
 386 2013-08-27 09:07:50 * Diablo-D3 honestly has no clue how osx _exists_ sometimes from the stories hes heard
 387 2013-08-27 09:08:05 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: it does nothing on linux too
 388 2013-08-27 09:08:08 <sipa> phantomcircuit: also, the fact that it tries to continue reading after seeing a corrupted sub-record is weird to me
 389 2013-08-27 09:08:21 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: and, as a side note, you cannot use fdatasync on /dev/null.
 390 2013-08-27 09:08:33 <sipa> define "cannot"
 391 2013-08-27 09:08:38 <sipa> toffoo: present?
 392 2013-08-27 09:08:49 <Diablo-D3> sipa: on linux it bitches that you cant, but otherwise works
 393 2013-08-27 09:08:57 <Diablo-D3> sipa: btw, you know what this almost sounds like?
 394 2013-08-27 09:09:01 <sipa> define "bitches"
 395 2013-08-27 09:09:02 <Diablo-D3> somebody isnt trapping an error
 396 2013-08-27 09:09:18 <Diablo-D3> like, previous op errored, error is ignored, leveldb keeps going
 397 2013-08-27 09:09:28 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, you sure about that, im pretty sure fdatasync does exactly what fsync does except doesn't update the metadata unless the filesize has grown larger
 398 2013-08-27 09:09:49 <phantomcircuit> unless you're talking about the disk write cache
 399 2013-08-27 09:09:54 <phantomcircuit> in which case all bets are off
 400 2013-08-27 09:10:37 <phantomcircuit> sipa, leveldb doesn't really seem all that complicated... i wonder if it would be easier to just write something new with the same basic design but a ton more consistency checks
 401 2013-08-27 09:11:28 <Diablo-D3> sipa: do something like dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=16k count=256k conv=fdatasync
 402 2013-08-27 09:11:42 <Diablo-D3> says its an invalid argument for /dev/null
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 404 2013-08-27 09:12:24 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, which sort of makes sense
 405 2013-08-27 09:12:31 <phantomcircuit> since you cant flush /dev/null
 406 2013-08-27 09:12:33 <Diablo-D3> yeah /dev/null is beyond magic
 407 2013-08-27 09:12:47 <Diablo-D3> where /dev/zero is a file of infinite zeros
 408 2013-08-27 09:12:55 <Diablo-D3> /dev/null is a file of a single EOF.
 409 2013-08-27 09:14:45 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I dunno, I really think Im right given the details
 410 2013-08-27 09:14:55 <Diablo-D3> sipa: a file op is erroring and not being trapped
 411 2013-08-27 09:15:14 <Diablo-D3> sipa: its the only way that I can think of to fit all the evidence
 412 2013-08-27 09:15:14 <phantomcircuit> hmm
 413 2013-08-27 09:15:23 Anduck has joined
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 415 2013-08-27 09:15:23 Anduck has joined
 416 2013-08-27 09:15:24 <Diablo-D3> especially the whole corrupts and keeps going part
 417 2013-08-27 09:15:36 <phantomcircuit> maybe we should just go through the leveldb tree and add as much additional error handling logic as possible
 418 2013-08-27 09:15:43 <phantomcircuit> and when i say handling i mean panic and close
 419 2013-08-27 09:15:51 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: this is why I refuse to do C and C++ anymore
 420 2013-08-27 09:16:05 <Diablo-D3> I mean, Ive always refused to do C++, but you know what I mean
 421 2013-08-27 09:16:08 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, well afaict leveldb wasn't intended to be a "serious" durable database
 422 2013-08-27 09:16:21 <phantomcircuit> the design just isn't right for that
 423 2013-08-27 09:16:26 <Diablo-D3> yes, and C wasnt intended to be a serious durable language
 424 2013-08-27 09:16:29 <phantomcircuit> it is however spot on for being ludicrous speed
 425 2013-08-27 09:16:32 <Diablo-D3> so why do we keep using it
 426 2013-08-27 09:16:36 <sipa> phantomcircuit: not sure
 427 2013-08-27 09:16:52 <sipa> phantomcircuit: the whole write-all-data-twice seems a clear design choice for consistency in favor of speed
 428 2013-08-27 09:16:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the lack of sequence id's is baffling
 429 2013-08-27 09:17:06 <sipa> it's in the details that things seem to be missing
 430 2013-08-27 09:17:12 <Diablo-D3> sipa: okay so wait
 431 2013-08-27 09:17:13 <Diablo-D3> rewind a bit
 432 2013-08-27 09:17:20 <Diablo-D3> who provides the journal
 433 2013-08-27 09:17:21 <Diablo-D3> us or them
 434 2013-08-27 09:17:22 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the basic overall design seems to be pretty solid
 435 2013-08-27 09:17:25 <sipa> Diablo-D3: them
 436 2013-08-27 09:17:32 <Diablo-D3> how many files does leveldb use?
 437 2013-08-27 09:17:38 <sipa> many
 438 2013-08-27 09:17:42 <phantomcircuit> but honestly i wrote a journaling class in java that is way more reliable in a much shorter amount of code
 439 2013-08-27 09:17:46 <Diablo-D3> when does it create a new file?
 440 2013-08-27 09:17:54 <sipa> on compactions
 441 2013-08-27 09:18:02 <Diablo-D3> when does reindexing happen?
 442 2013-08-27 09:18:09 <phantomcircuit> sequence_id/payload_length/checksum(s)/payload
 443 2013-08-27 09:18:15 <sipa> when you start bitcoin with -reindex
 444 2013-08-27 09:18:32 <phantomcircuit> there is effectively no way for corruption to occur there beyond the sequence id being corrupted such that two records are perfectly swapped
 445 2013-08-27 09:18:35 <Diablo-D3> so the corruption is only being detected during reindex?
 446 2013-08-27 09:18:39 <phantomcircuit> which is just ludicrously unlikely to happen
 447 2013-08-27 09:18:41 <Diablo-D3> or is it being caused there?
 448 2013-08-27 09:18:42 <sipa> Diablo-D3: ???
 449 2013-08-27 09:18:56 <Diablo-D3> did I misunderstand the question?
 450 2013-08-27 09:18:59 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, it's more likely to happen but isn't the only time it happens
 451 2013-08-27 09:19:05 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: k
 452 2013-08-27 09:19:08 <phantomcircuit> which is why he's ??? you
 453 2013-08-27 09:19:22 <phantomcircuit> which is why im thinking it's a journaling bug in leveldb
 454 2013-08-27 09:19:23 <Diablo-D3> I heard reindexing mentioned earlier
 455 2013-08-27 09:19:24 <sipa> i'm just saying that we have evidence of people doing a reindex (=wipe the database as start from scratch), and seeing a corruption later on... without any power cycling or standby or even exiting the program in between
 456 2013-08-27 09:19:35 <phantomcircuit> since reindexing is where there is the absolute highest turn over for the journal
 457 2013-08-27 09:19:36 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes which will be hard
 458 2013-08-27 09:19:46 <Diablo-D3> I think the entire file IO code needs to be ripped out
 459 2013-08-27 09:19:53 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 460 2013-08-27 09:20:02 <Diablo-D3> and then replaced with code that is bullet proof
 461 2013-08-27 09:20:06 <sipa> where?
 462 2013-08-27 09:20:07 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what's the format of the table files? (high level overview)
 463 2013-08-27 09:20:12 <Diablo-D3> all over leveldb
 464 2013-08-27 09:20:21 <Diablo-D3> everywhere it opens a file, closes a file, reads a file, writes a file
 465 2013-08-27 09:20:24 <sipa> all IO code in leveldb is abstracted into an environment class
 466 2013-08-27 09:20:30 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 467 2013-08-27 09:20:30 <sipa> you can write your own if you want
 468 2013-08-27 09:20:33 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so...
 469 2013-08-27 09:20:37 <Diablo-D3> how the hell is it not error checking?
 470 2013-08-27 09:20:43 <sipa> it is
 471 2013-08-27 09:20:45 <Diablo-D3> does that code have no error checking at all?
 472 2013-08-27 09:21:00 <Diablo-D3> because for me to be right, it has to have not trapped and error and then kept going
 473 2013-08-27 09:21:18 <sipa> it has error detection all over the place
 474 2013-08-27 09:21:27 <sipa> look at src/leveldb/util/env_posix.cc
 475 2013-08-27 09:21:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: then I dont think Im right
 476 2013-08-27 09:22:01 <sipa> phantomcircuit: sorted list of key-value pairs, with an index at the end
 477 2013-08-27 09:22:03 <Diablo-D3> either that, or an error is happening and not returning an error
 478 2013-08-27 09:22:06 <sipa> and a bloom filter
 479 2013-08-27 09:22:09 <Diablo-D3> which is highly unlikely
 480 2013-08-27 09:22:29 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, https://leveldb.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/helpers/memenv/memenv.cc + https://leveldb.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/util/env_posix.cc
 481 2013-08-27 09:22:34 <Diablo-D3> sipa: does leveldb mmap everything or not?
 482 2013-08-27 09:22:40 <sipa> some things
 483 2013-08-27 09:22:47 <sipa> on 64-bit systems
 484 2013-08-27 09:22:56 <sipa> maybe we should try disabling that on OSX
 485 2013-08-27 09:23:00 <Diablo-D3> does it ever mmap then not mmap a f ile later?
 486 2013-08-27 09:23:20 <sipa> Diablo-D3: IIRC yes, bu it closes and syncs in between
 487 2013-08-27 09:23:26 <Diablo-D3> sipa: thats still bad vooodoo
 488 2013-08-27 09:23:36 <sipa> phantomcircuit: sstable files are immutable, so if they are corrupted, it means they are corrupted at write time
 489 2013-08-27 09:23:55 <Diablo-D3> sipa: try disabling mmap on OSX and see if it goes away
 490 2013-08-27 09:24:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, so i figured out why it's skipping invalid log entries
 491 2013-08-27 09:24:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, check env_posix.cc class PosixMmapFile : public WritableFile {
 492 2013-08-27 09:24:43 <phantomcircuit> the comment right above it
 493 2013-08-27 09:25:07 moarrr has quit ()
 494 2013-08-27 09:25:15 <sipa> phantomcircuit: zero _suffixes_
 495 2013-08-27 09:25:29 <sipa> which means that if you encounter one, you can stop reading, afaik
 496 2013-08-27 09:25:31 <phantomcircuit> sipa, which are invalid records i believe
 497 2013-08-27 09:25:42 <phantomcircuit> so it's being lazy and just ignoring them
 498 2013-08-27 09:25:54 <sipa> so ok, skip zero records
 499 2013-08-27 09:25:54 <phantomcircuit> instead of verifying that the end of the journal is all 0
 500 2013-08-27 09:26:07 <sipa> still no point in skipping things with an invalid checksum (that are nonzero)
 501 2013-08-27 09:26:51 <Diablo-D3> I agree with phantomcircuit
 502 2013-08-27 09:26:59 <Diablo-D3> that code isnt robust enough
 503 2013-08-27 09:27:16 <sipa> still none of this explains mid-runtime corruptions
 504 2013-08-27 09:27:30 <Diablo-D3> without sleep being a component NOTHING explains it
 505 2013-08-27 09:27:31 <phantomcircuit> also it appears that when an PosixMmapFile object is destructed it calls munmap() without calling sync()
 506 2013-08-27 09:27:42 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: HUH
 507 2013-08-27 09:27:55 <Diablo-D3> [05:22:30] <Diablo-D3> does it ever mmap then not mmap a f ile later?
 508 2013-08-27 09:27:55 <Diablo-D3> [05:22:50] <sipa> Diablo-D3: IIRC yes, bu it closes and syncs in between
 509 2013-08-27 09:27:58 <Diablo-D3> the reason I asked that.
 510 2013-08-27 09:28:01 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, it just sets _pending_sync = true;
 511 2013-08-27 09:28:07 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: thats bad
 512 2013-08-27 09:28:09 <phantomcircuit> https://leveldb.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/util/env_posix.cc
 513 2013-08-27 09:28:12 <Diablo-D3> it should always force sync
 514 2013-08-27 09:28:13 <phantomcircuit> UnmapCurrentRegion
 515 2013-08-27 09:28:55 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, lol look at PosixMmapFile::Flush()
 516 2013-08-27 09:29:01 <phantomcircuit> it's a NOP
 517 2013-08-27 09:29:03 Freebitcoinslist has left ()
 518 2013-08-27 09:29:09 * Diablo-D3 facepalms so fucking hard
 519 2013-08-27 09:29:48 paybitcoin1 has joined
 520 2013-08-27 09:29:57 <Diablo-D3> stating the fact that this merely isnt hardened software doesnt even come close to describing how I feel
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 523 2013-08-27 09:30:19 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 524 2013-08-27 09:30:48 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i wonder if the normal fd flush syscalls even work right for an mmap fd
 525 2013-08-27 09:30:55 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: I wouldnt
 526 2013-08-27 09:31:01 <Diablo-D3> I dont care what the posix spec says or any other spec
 527 2013-08-27 09:31:05 <phantomcircuit> my initial guess would be not
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 532 2013-08-27 09:31:37 <Diablo-D3> in fact, Im not evne sure I'd be using mmap for this
 533 2013-08-27 09:31:58 <Diablo-D3> like
 534 2013-08-27 09:32:12 <Diablo-D3> when I write code that mmaps and writes to the mmap
 535 2013-08-27 09:32:37 <Diablo-D3> Ive always copied the file, wrote to it, and then renamed it back to the original file
 536 2013-08-27 09:32:58 <Diablo-D3> because its the only way to force very stupid systems to work right
 537 2013-08-27 09:33:12 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, probably 99% of the use of mmap should be reads here
 538 2013-08-27 09:33:15 <Diablo-D3> msync cant be trusted
 539 2013-08-27 09:33:35 <phantomcircuit> since this is for the sstable's which as sipa said are immutable
 540 2013-08-27 09:33:50 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: mmapping read only files is fine
 541 2013-08-27 09:34:00 <phantomcircuit> yeah except what im saying is
 542 2013-08-27 09:34:02 <Diablo-D3> Ive never been comfortable with mmaping writable files
 543 2013-08-27 09:34:03 <phantomcircuit> they're 99% reads
 544 2013-08-27 09:34:08 <phantomcircuit> 1% something going wrong
 545 2013-08-27 09:34:08 <Diablo-D3> yes
 546 2013-08-27 09:34:09 <Diablo-D3> and that 1%
 547 2013-08-27 09:34:12 <Diablo-D3> exactly
 548 2013-08-27 09:37:21 <phantomcircuit> it should be good enough for bitcoins purposes to have the journal flush only before writing a new sstable
 549 2013-08-27 09:37:41 <phantomcircuit> since any lost records at the end can be fixed by going to the network
 550 2013-08-27 09:37:42 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 551 2013-08-27 09:38:06 <Diablo-D3> yeah thats another thing
 552 2013-08-27 09:38:09 <Diablo-D3> even if the db is corrupt
 553 2013-08-27 09:38:18 <Diablo-D3> why isnt bitcoin fetching the records again
 554 2013-08-27 09:38:24 <phantomcircuit> i dont see why it wouldn't be possibly to have the same ludicrous speed performance with a lot more safety with a much simpler format
 555 2013-08-27 09:38:33 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, because it's confused
 556 2013-08-27 09:38:44 <Diablo-D3> it shouldnt BE confused, to be honest
 557 2013-08-27 09:38:49 <phantomcircuit> the db gets corrupt and it panics or something equivalent
 558 2013-08-27 09:38:56 <phantomcircuit> which is reasonable behaviour for now
 559 2013-08-27 09:39:17 <phantomcircuit> silently trying to fix it might be dangerous for reasons i cant think of right now
 560 2013-08-27 09:39:22 * Diablo-D3 wishes bitcoin was written in erlang
 561 2013-08-27 09:39:37 <Diablo-D3> btw, if turning off mmmap on osx fixes this
 562 2013-08-27 09:39:38 <phantomcircuit> yes then all 0 of us who know erlang could help
 563 2013-08-27 09:39:39 <phantomcircuit> :)
 564 2013-08-27 09:39:42 <Diablo-D3> we know exactly where the bug is
 565 2013-08-27 09:39:47 * Diablo-D3 knows erlang :<
 566 2013-08-27 09:40:01 <phantomcircuit> heh
 567 2013-08-27 09:40:23 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, given that fdatasync is a NOP im thinking msync is probably just as bad
 568 2013-08-27 09:40:25 <sipa> you cannot 'fetch' UTXO records
 569 2013-08-27 09:40:34 <sipa> there is no way to authenticate them
 570 2013-08-27 09:40:50 <sipa> you must produce them yourself by processing the block chain
 571 2013-08-27 09:40:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, no but since we already have all the blocks we could rebuild the utxo silently
 572 2013-08-27 09:41:02 <sipa> phantomcircuit: which is what -reindex does
 573 2013-08-27 09:41:09 <Diablo-D3> yes, and then -reindex freaks
 574 2013-08-27 09:41:16 <phantomcircuit> lol...
 575 2013-08-27 09:41:26 <Diablo-D3> so maybe leveldb is not the right db for what we want
 576 2013-08-27 09:41:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i think Diablo-D3 was saying to detect corrupt utxo and automatically reindex
 577 2013-08-27 09:41:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: the GUI does ask you if you want to reindex, if it detects corruption at startup
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 579 2013-08-27 09:42:03 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes but not DURING
 580 2013-08-27 09:42:04 <phantomcircuit> oh it does?
 581 2013-08-27 09:42:07 <sipa> yes
 582 2013-08-27 09:42:07 <phantomcircuit> neat
 583 2013-08-27 09:42:14 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yeah its done that for awhile now
 584 2013-08-27 09:42:16 <Diablo-D3> 0.5? 0.6?
 585 2013-08-27 09:42:28 <phantomcircuit> yeah i wouldn't know my db nevers gets corrupt
 586 2013-08-27 09:42:28 GordonG3kko has joined
 587 2013-08-27 09:42:31 * phantomcircuit runs
 588 2013-08-27 09:42:34 <sipa> -reindex didn't exist until 0.7.something
 589 2013-08-27 09:42:35 <Diablo-D3> yeah Ive never had that problem either
 590 2013-08-27 09:42:41 <Diablo-D3> sipa: oh maybe
 591 2013-08-27 09:42:44 <sipa> and it hasn't been automatic since 0.8.1 or so
 592 2013-08-27 09:42:49 <sipa> *until
 593 2013-08-27 09:42:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, maybe i'll go hack around leveldb and try to add sequence id numbers
 594 2013-08-27 09:43:03 <phantomcircuit> iirc it shouldn't be too hard to do
 595 2013-08-27 09:43:08 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i've never _ever_ been able to reproduce a leveldb corruption myself
 596 2013-08-27 09:43:11 <phantomcircuit> that would at least give an indication of where the problem is
 597 2013-08-27 09:43:19 <sipa> except by actively writing random data into database file
 598 2013-08-27 09:43:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the leveldb src in git is using some magic right
 599 2013-08-27 09:43:41 <Diablo-D3> how long is a line in the index?
 600 2013-08-27 09:43:44 <phantomcircuit> subtree or something
 601 2013-08-27 09:43:55 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes
 602 2013-08-27 09:44:02 <phantomcircuit> would i need that to try and add sequence ids?
 603 2013-08-27 09:44:08 <Diablo-D3> are lines in the index fixed?
 604 2013-08-27 09:44:21 <Diablo-D3> er, fixed length I mean
 605 2013-08-27 09:44:24 <sipa> Diablo-D3: leveldb index or bitcoin's index?
 606 2013-08-27 09:44:32 <Diablo-D3> sipa: the index thats being corrupted
 607 2013-08-27 09:44:39 <Diablo-D3> which I assume is bitcoin's
 608 2013-08-27 09:44:41 <sipa> the index isn't being corrupted
 609 2013-08-27 09:44:47 <sipa> it's the chainstate database
 610 2013-08-27 09:44:54 <sipa> but that doesn't matter
 611 2013-08-27 09:45:04 <sipa> the corruption is almost always detected by leveldb
 612 2013-08-27 09:45:13 <sipa> so it isn't application-level corruption
 613 2013-08-27 09:45:28 <sipa> just checksum mismatches & co
 614 2013-08-27 09:45:30 <Diablo-D3> I was just thinking of ways that we wouldnt need leveldb for this
 615 2013-08-27 09:45:55 <sipa> right
 616 2013-08-27 09:46:43 <Diablo-D3> maybe I really should write my own coin =/
 617 2013-08-27 09:46:45 <Diablo-D3> I dont want to
 618 2013-08-27 09:46:58 <gjs278> but don't you want SNAPPY
 619 2013-08-27 09:47:08 <sipa> we disable snappy
 620 2013-08-27 09:47:23 <Diablo-D3> I wouldnt use snappy like that
 621 2013-08-27 09:47:56 <gjs278> anything created by google because it will just be abandoned and non maintained one day
 622 2013-08-27 09:48:02 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, snappy is ineffective when compressing the blockchain, even with gzip you only save 12%
 623 2013-08-27 09:48:13 <phantomcircuit> iirc with snappy it's much less
 624 2013-08-27 09:48:17 <phantomcircuit> liek 3-4%
 625 2013-08-27 09:48:20 <gjs278> yes snappy is terrible
 626 2013-08-27 09:48:23 <sipa> and that is irrelevant entirely, as we don't store the blockchain in a database
 627 2013-08-27 09:48:23 <Diablo-D3> snappy doesnt even need to exist
 628 2013-08-27 09:48:25 <Diablo-D3> we already have lz4
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 630 2013-08-27 09:48:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah x1000 for the utxo
 631 2013-08-27 09:48:41 <sipa> what we do store in the database is even much less compressible
 632 2013-08-27 09:48:49 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah exactly
 633 2013-08-27 09:48:50 <phantomcircuit> which is almost entirely unique uncompressible data
 634 2013-08-27 09:48:56 <gjs278> snappy must exist because it is "fast" less efficient and not compatible with anything else
 635 2013-08-27 09:49:00 <sipa> except for address reuse
 636 2013-08-27 09:49:00 <Diablo-D3> now network coding otoh, would be fucking awesome to send blocks out faster
 637 2013-08-27 09:49:10 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: exactly, its inferior to lz4
 638 2013-08-27 09:49:19 <sipa> meh, you may win a small constant factor
 639 2013-08-27 09:49:31 <sipa> use ssl on your links and get compression for free
 640 2013-08-27 09:49:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the basic design behind leveldb is obvious and simple, the implementation through seems much less so
 641 2013-08-27 09:51:29 ThomasV has joined
 642 2013-08-27 09:54:55 <sipa> ;;blocks
 643 2013-08-27 09:54:56 <gribble> 254466
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 645 2013-08-27 09:56:27 <gjs278> lz4 is ridiculous, I just tried it compared to my gzip backup and it used like 10% the cpu
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 647 2013-08-27 09:56:46 <gjs278> for the same speed
 648 2013-08-27 09:56:55 <gjs278> just not compression level, have to mess with that
 649 2013-08-27 09:58:30 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: lz4 is not meant to compress better
 650 2013-08-27 09:58:32 <Diablo-D3> just faster
 651 2013-08-27 09:58:42 <Diablo-D3> its better than snappy imo
 652 2013-08-27 09:59:20 <gjs278> doesn't seem like lz4c is using multiple cores
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 654 2013-08-27 10:00:43 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt
 655 2013-08-27 10:00:50 <Diablo-D3> it'd make no sense to either
 656 2013-08-27 10:02:13 <gjs278> I'm trying out lz4mt
 657 2013-08-27 10:03:36 macboz__ has joined
 658 2013-08-27 10:03:37 <gjs278> lz4mt using 6 cores was able to compress just as quickly as lz4c using 1 core on high compression mode, compressed 10gb to 3.3gb vs lz4c's 3.9gb
 659 2013-08-27 10:04:27 <Diablo-D3> dear god theres a lz4mt now? =/
 660 2013-08-27 10:04:36 * Diablo-D3 wishes people would learn how to use threads
 661 2013-08-27 10:04:56 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: and what does gzip -9 compress it to
 662 2013-08-27 10:05:17 <gjs278> gzip (whatever the default is) compresses to 2.9gb
 663 2013-08-27 10:06:26 <Diablo-D3> the default sucks, and iirc its 6
 664 2013-08-27 10:06:40 <gjs278> I'll check 9 now, it will just take awhile
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 667 2013-08-27 10:09:24 <gjs278> gzip -9 while taking way longer compresses to just 2.8 compared to the 2.9 of -6
 668 2013-08-27 10:09:35 <gjs278> it was a difference of 2 minutes 14 seconds vs 50 seconds
 669 2013-08-27 10:09:36 <Diablo-D3> heh
 670 2013-08-27 10:09:48 <Diablo-D3> and how long did lz4mt take?
 671 2013-08-27 10:09:54 <gjs278> lz4mt took 32 seconds
 672 2013-08-27 10:10:02 <gjs278> my hard drive was bottlenecking it though
 673 2013-08-27 10:10:14 <Diablo-D3> yeah see thats the problem with lz4 in a way
 674 2013-08-27 10:10:20 <Diablo-D3> its so fast, your hardware is too slow.
 675 2013-08-27 10:10:34 <Diablo-D3> lz4 is basically a replacement for lzo
 676 2013-08-27 10:10:47 <Diablo-D3> effectively the same cpu usage, better compression
 677 2013-08-27 10:10:51 <gjs278> jesus
 678 2013-08-27 10:10:59 <gjs278> 4135365418 bytes (4.1 GB) copied, 7.22657 s, 572 MB/s
 679 2013-08-27 10:11:09 <gjs278> sending to /dev/null and I get that
 680 2013-08-27 10:11:16 <Diablo-D3> lol.
 681 2013-08-27 10:11:46 <Diablo-D3> and you know whats really fun?
 682 2013-08-27 10:11:53 <Diablo-D3> serializing to json and then lz4ing it
 683 2013-08-27 10:11:56 <Diablo-D3> will beat
 684 2013-08-27 10:12:02 <Diablo-D3> every portable serializing format ever
 685 2013-08-27 10:12:04 <Diablo-D3> _all of them_
 686 2013-08-27 10:12:33 * sipa wonders when we'll see hardware-accelerated JSON serialization
 687 2013-08-27 10:12:49 <Diablo-D3> it will serialize fastest, deserialize fastest, be portable across many languages, and be about the same size
 688 2013-08-27 10:12:55 <Diablo-D3> no more protobus, no more thrift
 689 2013-08-27 10:13:12 <Diablo-D3> *bufs
 690 2013-08-27 10:13:31 <gjs278> I can't get xfsdump to keep up with lz4mt on a fusion-io card when the data isn't in page cache
 691 2013-08-27 10:13:43 <Diablo-D3> >fusion-io
 692 2013-08-27 10:13:48 <Diablo-D3> #goddamnitsomuch
 693 2013-08-27 10:14:12 <gjs278> their drivers are still broken for kernel 3.10
 694 2013-08-27 10:14:43 toffoo has quit ()
 695 2013-08-27 10:14:57 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: my problem is this
 696 2013-08-27 10:15:00 <Diablo-D3> still cant boot from them
 697 2013-08-27 10:15:18 <gjs278> oh yeah, I have to have some really stupid initramfs trickery to boot mine from /boot on another drive
 698 2013-08-27 10:15:27 <Diablo-D3> yeah thats just lame
 699 2013-08-27 10:15:54 <Diablo-D3> Im more interested in that new ACHI replacement
 700 2013-08-27 10:16:21 <phantomcircuit> who boots from one of those nyways?
 701 2013-08-27 10:16:38 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: sometimes you just want one drive
 702 2013-08-27 10:16:54 <phantomcircuit> ehhh
 703 2013-08-27 10:17:17 <Diablo-D3> dont eh me
 704 2013-08-27 10:17:24 <Diablo-D3> fusion io has a 8TB card
 705 2013-08-27 10:17:30 <Diablo-D3> why the hell do I need ANYTHING else
 706 2013-08-27 10:18:52 sacrelege has joined
 707 2013-08-27 10:20:01 <Diablo-D3> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NVM_Express
 708 2013-08-27 10:20:02 <gjs278> the next thing I boot is just going to be a ramdisk block device against a degraded raid1 ssd with --write-mostly
 709 2013-08-27 10:20:06 <Diablo-D3> thats the protocol I was talking about
 710 2013-08-27 10:20:16 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: I thought about that but
 711 2013-08-27 10:20:20 <Diablo-D3> I dont have enough memory for that
 712 2013-08-27 10:20:45 <Diablo-D3> and honestly its pointless
 713 2013-08-27 10:20:49 <gjs278> I have enough but my page cache would be going insane
 714 2013-08-27 10:20:55 <Diablo-D3> its slower than the page cache
 715 2013-08-27 10:21:06 <Diablo-D3> its stupid enough to cache pages twice, for example
 716 2013-08-27 10:21:12 <gjs278> indeed
 717 2013-08-27 10:21:27 <Diablo-D3> just have an on boot script that reads the entire drive
 718 2013-08-27 10:21:47 <Diablo-D3> or just never reboot
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 783 2013-08-27 12:29:44 <Goonie> BlueMatt: ping
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 806 2013-08-27 13:17:50 <jgarzik_> morning'
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 819 2013-08-27 13:30:16 <porquilho> does anyone know a site where i can plot 2 diferent exchange prices, like mtgox and bitstamp
 820 2013-08-27 13:31:28 sacredchao has joined
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 822 2013-08-27 13:34:04 * gmaxwell yawns
 823 2013-08-27 13:34:34 zagaberoo has joined
 824 2013-08-27 13:34:49 * sipa donates gmaxwell a caffeine inhalator
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 833 2013-08-27 13:48:32 <Goonie> Does anyone know when BlueMatt is typically online, now that he's back to the states?
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 837 2013-08-27 13:56:38 <helo> seen 36 hours ago in here
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 842 2013-08-27 14:00:18 t7 is now known as m7
 843 2013-08-27 14:00:26 m7 is now known as t7
 844 2013-08-27 14:01:40 <gmaxwell> so... apparently android wallet can't even pay to p2sh?
 845 2013-08-27 14:02:33 _jps has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 846 2013-08-27 14:02:45 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
 847 2013-08-27 14:02:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: does that surprise you, given that bitcoinj doesn't support p2sh?
 848 2013-08-27 14:03:37 <gmaxwell> It certantly surprises me, because it's a change which has a magnitude of approximately two lines of code.
 849 2013-08-27 14:04:15 <petertodd> It, easywallet, and blockchain.info are the current non-supporters.
 850 2013-08-27 14:04:26 <petertodd> I can't think of anything else that doesn't right now.
 851 2013-08-27 14:04:28 <gmaxwell> I don't think we should be listing any client on bitcoin.org that doesn't. It did not occur to me previously to test this because it blows my mind that anyone wouldn't bother to implement the sending side.
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 857 2013-08-27 14:09:09 <jgarzik_> gmaxwell, as mentioned last night, Bitcoin Wallet's lack of P2SH is  BitPay hurdle
 858 2013-08-27 14:09:12 random_cat has joined
 859 2013-08-27 14:09:18 <jgarzik_> we really want to use P2SH multisig
 860 2013-08-27 14:10:07 jgarzik_ has left ("Leaving")
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 862 2013-08-27 14:10:19 * jgarzik_ kicks xchat
 863 2013-08-27 14:10:20 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
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 865 2013-08-27 14:11:15 <gmaxwell> I'd say we should probably work up a list of mandatory features we expect any wallet to have... but I don't think I would have though to put p2sh on it because it's so simple to support. This is very concerning to me.
 866 2013-08-27 14:11:38 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: what does mandatory mean in this context
 867 2013-08-27 14:11:39 <gmaxwell> But before I say more, I'll check that there have at least been patches submitted.
 868 2013-08-27 14:11:59 <petertodd> jgarzik: I suggested to gmaxwell that it would be amusing to make a P2SH bounty that's a hash-preimage oracle txout spendable by the android wallet donation address. We release the unlock code only when P2SH is implemented.
 869 2013-08-27 14:12:07 <petertodd> Good example of *why* P2SH matters.
 870 2013-08-27 14:12:28 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 871 2013-08-27 14:12:42 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I think thats overkill for something which is little more than updating a comparison.
 872 2013-08-27 14:12:53 <Goonie> petertodd: It would go to the wrong people (me). It needs to be implemented in bitcoinj.
 873 2013-08-27 14:13:03 <petertodd> Ah, there you are...
 874 2013-08-27 14:13:10 <petertodd> All bincoinj needs to do is add 2 lines of code...
 875 2013-08-27 14:13:21 <petertodd> (unless bitcoinj is implemented in a stupid way)
 876 2013-08-27 14:13:27 <Goonie> And by the way, if bitcoinj doesn't support P2SH then MultiBit doesn't, either.
 877 2013-08-27 14:13:39 <petertodd> alp's been writing P2SH-using oracle contract code with bitcoinj
 878 2013-08-27 14:13:55 <jgarzik> as I recall from this channel…  TD was a bit hostile towards P2SH and did not even /want/ to implement it :(
 879 2013-08-27 14:14:13 * jgarzik would provide a google link, if googling chat logs were easier
 880 2013-08-27 14:14:13 <petertodd> jgarzik: Correct
 881 2013-08-27 14:14:29 <Goonie> can remember something like this, too.
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 883 2013-08-27 14:15:03 <petertodd> Goonie: See, I have nothing against you getting a BTC for this, mainly because then it forces you to get bitcoinj fixed, and otherwise the android wallet's pretty nice - I noticed your donation addr has only gotten 0.25BTC, which I just sent you.
 884 2013-08-27 14:15:29 <Goonie> petertodd: thanks
 885 2013-08-27 14:16:01 <Goonie> Of course I needed to rotate that address because of the RNG issue.
 886 2013-08-27 14:16:09 <gmaxwell> haha
 887 2013-08-27 14:16:09 <petertodd> Goonie: lol
 888 2013-08-27 14:16:19 <gmaxwell> "donations to RNG hacker"
 889 2013-08-27 14:16:19 hnz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 890 2013-08-27 14:16:54 <petertodd> Cool hack and all, but I think he's gotten enough donations...
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 892 2013-08-27 14:18:23 <Goonie> About that p2sh thing, how would the workflow of a standard payment change and how would the UI need to adapt to this?
 893 2013-08-27 14:18:43 <Goonie> For example, does it still work with standard QR codes?
 894 2013-08-27 14:18:51 <petertodd> Goonie: Nothing changes. Addresses now can have a 3 in front of them.
 895 2013-08-27 14:18:58 <gmaxwell> Goonie: it doesn't change at all. It's an address that begins with 3. There is no ui change except not rejecting 3.* in the ui layer.
 896 2013-08-27 14:19:09 <petertodd> The QR code standard encodes a textual address I think?
 897 2013-08-27 14:19:14 <gmaxwell> yes.
 898 2013-08-27 14:19:57 <gmaxwell> Sending to a p2sh address is a nearly trivial change... using them on the rx side is another matter.
 899 2013-08-27 14:20:11 <petertodd> Yeah, android wallet on 3M8XGFBKwkf7miBzpkU3x2DoWwAVrD1mhk puts that address in the "Pay to" field.
 900 2013-08-27 14:20:25 mattco has joined
 901 2013-08-27 14:20:42 <Goonie> Addresses currently need to match [123456789ABCDEFGHJKLMNPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijkmnopqrstuvwxyz]{20,40}
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 903 2013-08-27 14:21:48 <petertodd> Right. What actually does the address validation bit? IE turns the address into a scriptSig?
 904 2013-08-27 14:22:20 <petertodd> s/scriptSig/scriptPubKey/
 905 2013-08-27 14:22:34 <Goonie> Address validation happens in bitcoinj. In the case of URIs, there's a BitcoinURI class.
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 908 2013-08-27 14:25:09 <jgarzik> petertodd, speaking of P2SH, is that working in python-bitcoinlib?  :)
 909 2013-08-27 14:25:15 <jgarzik> I don't recall it is
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 911 2013-08-27 14:26:28 <petertodd> jgarzik: Lol, I dunno there even is code to really handle addresses at all?
 912 2013-08-27 14:26:43 <petertodd> jgarzik: I added P2SH validation in my 'pythonize' branch to make the script unittests pass.
 913 2013-08-27 14:27:25 <petertodd> Goonie: Ah, BitcoinURI ends up creating an Address, but Address only supports pay-to-pubkey-hash from what I can see. :(
 914 2013-08-27 14:27:27 <jgarzik> petertodd, I don't recall…  I thought there was a little bit of something.  But maybe address stuff is still missing.
 915 2013-08-27 14:27:44 <petertodd> jgarzik: Well base58 was only added recently, so that's probably true.
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 919 2013-08-27 14:32:30 <petertodd> jgarzik: Oh, and reminds me, I'm going to add RPC to my pythonize branch soon to make the RPC calls return the appropriate objects.
 920 2013-08-27 14:35:27 <tgs3> who runs bitcoin.it ?
 921 2013-08-27 14:35:39 <tgs3> can we take bitcoin.it off the idiotic protection that blocks TOR users?
 922 2013-08-27 14:36:03 <tgs3> it requests captcha and wants cookies enabled
 923 2013-08-27 14:36:24 <tgs3> or tune cloudflare to allow tor with much higher limits
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 930 2013-08-27 14:44:08 <jgarzik> petertodd, cool
 931 2013-08-27 14:44:16 <jgarzik> petertodd, see python-bitcoinrpc for a base
 932 2013-08-27 14:44:30 <jgarzik> petertodd, I've been meaning to merge that into python-bitcoinlib
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 947 2013-08-27 15:04:52 <jgarzik> huh, neat
 948 2013-08-27 15:05:01 <jgarzik> one of the alt-coins is taking up my UDP extensions
 949 2013-08-27 15:05:17 <jgarzik> "fastcoin", which is apparently litecoin but faster <rolls eyes>
 950 2013-08-27 15:06:59 <jgarzik> another coin, quarkcoin, does 30 seconds per blocks *facepalm*
 951 2013-08-27 15:07:59 <kinlo> it's interesting to see how the network will handle the stress of receiving so many updates which it cannot process in time
 952 2013-08-27 15:08:02 <jgarzik> quarkcoin diff retargets every 20 blocks (max 10% up, 50% down)
 953 2013-08-27 15:08:27 <kinlo> that might be a good test to see what bitcoin would do if the blocks are that huge in size that it takes a long time to verify, therefore a long time to propagate
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 956 2013-08-27 15:11:08 <gmaxwell> oh it's asymetric too.. fantastic.
 957 2013-08-27 15:11:48 <jgarzik> lots of alt-coin silliness
 958 2013-08-27 15:11:54 <jgarzik> but still, it's nice to see UDP used
 959 2013-08-27 15:12:04 <jgarzik> I think it would be great for distributing block headers
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 976 2013-08-27 15:34:02 <petertodd> jgarzik: Yup, I'm just going to merge python-bitcoinrpc history to bitcoinlib, and then move files into the right places and so on. I'll do it so the API returns "cooked" objects if it knows how, raw json otherwise.
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 978 2013-08-27 15:34:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: (with a 100% raw json version of course under the hood)
 979 2013-08-27 15:34:44 <petertodd> I should make "featherfastcoin"...
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 981 2013-08-27 15:35:03 <petertodd> Which is fast coin, but, um... oh I know, pre-mined!
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1020 2013-08-27 16:16:18 <helo> distribute all of the coin evenly among addresses created from the public keys that have sent coin in the last month
1021 2013-08-27 16:16:47 <helo> the *bitcoin public keys, ofc
1022 2013-08-27 16:17:41 Sebo has joined
1023 2013-08-27 16:18:14 <Sebo> Hi, can you tell me the difference in between possible `sighashtype=` values of `bitcoind signrawtransaction` command?
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1027 2013-08-27 16:21:52 <Sebo> Anyone could tell me the difference in between possible `sighashtype=` values of `bitcoind signrawtransaction` command?
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1030 2013-08-27 16:22:59 <maaku> Sebo: google sighash on the bitcoin wiki
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1036 2013-08-27 16:28:34 <Sebo> maaku: Thx.. I was searching for "sighashtype" ...before and that resulted just in some discussions from this channel ;]
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1054 2013-08-27 16:42:17 <dooglus> is there an efficient way to find the txid of an unconfirmed tx in my wallet that pays a specific address?
1055 2013-08-27 16:42:49 <dooglus> this is slow: bitcoind getrawmempool | grep '"' | cut -d'"' -f2 | while read x; do bitcoind decoderawtransaction $(bitcoind getrawtransaction $x) | grep 1EPsBvaV8QW7muNpyZVfqYzHd9bEkHVq2A && echo $x; done
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1062 2013-08-27 16:58:09 <Luke-Jr> dooglus: listtransactions and search output for address?
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1066 2013-08-27 17:01:50 <maaku> gmaxwell: in the blind signature version of coinjoin, what are the participants signing in the blindsign phase?
1067 2013-08-27 17:03:25 <gmaxwell> maaku: You provide your output address blinded. Everyone blind signs it.  Then you unblind and (anonymously) show everyone the result.
1068 2013-08-27 17:03:44 <gmaxwell> So then everyone is convinced that this output should be included, but they don't know who authored it.
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1070 2013-08-27 17:04:09 <maaku> and then there's an additional phase where everyone signs the bitcoin transaction itself?
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1075 2013-08-27 17:05:49 <gmaxwell> maaku: yea, everyone provides a blinded output and signmessages it for some input they want to use.   Then everyone blindsigns those token. Then everyone reveals their tokens. Then everyone signs.
1076 2013-08-27 17:06:23 <maaku> ok
1077 2013-08-27 17:06:36 <maaku> actually seems rather straightforward to implement
1078 2013-08-27 17:06:46 <gmaxwell> If someone doesn't sign then they're a malicious jammer (or they went offline..) and you blacklist their input (and perhaps their ID or fidelity bond or whater) from further rounds with you.
1079 2013-08-27 17:07:04 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: i'm starting to think the blindsign version of coinjoin may be easier than the ZC one, inspite of the O(n^2) complexity
1080 2013-08-27 17:07:11 <gmaxwell> maaku: distributed systems suck, all the difficulty here is in the details like deciding which people to include when there are too many.
1081 2013-08-27 17:07:39 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: I think it is, I mention the possibility of doing the ZC one mostly as a nod to ZC. :P
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1083 2013-08-27 17:09:09 <jcorgan> well, if I wanted a 256 txin/out join, it would require 64K signing ops
1084 2013-08-27 17:09:26 <jcorgan> if i understand correctly
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1086 2013-08-27 17:09:50 <maaku> i'm not sure you'd want that many inputs though
1087 2013-08-27 17:10:01 <jcorgan> just thinking of corner cases
1088 2013-08-27 17:10:09 <maaku> as N increases, so does you chance of someone dropping out
1089 2013-08-27 17:10:18 <jcorgan> (i've been working on a ZC version of coinjoin for the last few days)
1090 2013-08-27 17:10:27 <maaku> I'm thinking more 16 or 32
1091 2013-08-27 17:10:30 <gmaxwell> yea, I think 32 is a more realistic number.
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1093 2013-08-27 17:10:54 <gmaxwell> plus, as I pointed out, you can do cascades of multiple steps to grow it.
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1095 2013-08-27 17:12:23 <jcorgan> if it takes a proof-of-work and proof-of-control to add your input to a coin join, that would discourage later (intentional) drop outs before signing
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1097 2013-08-27 17:13:06 <maaku> gmaxwell: what's a safe blind signature scheme?
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1099 2013-08-27 17:14:27 <gmaxwell> maaku: the common stuff everyone knows about is just RSA signing. There are undoutably better schemes out there (faster, less data), but RSA is the obvious no brainer.
1100 2013-08-27 17:14:40 <gmaxwell> esp here where all the involved keys are ephemerial.
1101 2013-08-27 17:14:53 <gmaxwell> so the security of it is mostly irrelevant.
1102 2013-08-27 17:14:59 <maaku> ok
1103 2013-08-27 17:15:23 <maaku> i was researching blinded signatures for some other protocol, but couldn't find any ec stuff accepted as secure :\
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1105 2013-08-27 17:15:34 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: (showing my ignorance here) is there an EC equivalent to RSA
1106 2013-08-27 17:15:40 <gmaxwell> (also, if you care: rsa blind signing was patented, and the patents are long expired)
1107 2013-08-27 17:15:41 <jcorgan> for blind signing
1108 2013-08-27 17:15:54 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: there are EC blind signing schemes but I don't know much about them.
1109 2013-08-27 17:16:22 <jcorgan> ah, more research
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1111 2013-08-27 17:18:07 <gmaxwell> for this I'd just use 1024 bit RSA... gah, maybe even 512 bit.
1112 2013-08-27 17:20:01 <sipa> please be XKCD 538 compliant
1113 2013-08-27 17:21:52 <gmaxwell> AFAICT breaking the RSA key in this blind signing would just let someone create fake outputs, and then the real output that got left out would refuse to sign.. and the joint transaction would fail. "whoptiedo"
1114 2013-08-27 17:23:24 <jcorgan> if someone were recording the "ephemeral" broadcast traffic, *and* broke the RSA key, they could establish the input/output pair identities, correct?
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1117 2013-08-27 17:23:47 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: no, I don't believe they could.
1118 2013-08-27 17:24:18 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: you have a secret blinding value, and depending on the choice of that value your output could really be anything.
1119 2013-08-27 17:24:35 <jcorgan> ok
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1121 2013-08-27 17:24:51 <jcorgan> haven't look at blind signing in detail since the 90s cypherpunk days :)
1122 2013-08-27 17:25:07 <gmaxwell> I'd want to verify that before deploying something that depended on it being true, but thats my recollection and understanding.
1123 2013-08-27 17:25:41 <jcorgan> i still like the ZC option that is only O(n)
1124 2013-08-27 17:26:29 <jcorgan> anyway, gotta go back to some paying gigs
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1143 2013-08-27 17:45:43 <maaku> gmaxwell: you really have to sign each of the blind hashes separately, and not all at once (list of blinded hashes)?
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1148 2013-08-27 17:48:26 <gmaxwell> maaku: yea, the unblinding only works N fold because every user has their own blinding secret.
1149 2013-08-27 17:48:40 <maaku> i see
1150 2013-08-27 17:49:37 <gmaxwell> but whatever, it's like 32*32 RSA operations for 32 users (well, *4, blind, sign, unblind, verify). it's really no biggie.
1151 2013-08-27 17:50:11 <maaku> yeah i'mnot worried about performance, just trying to understand why
1152 2013-08-27 17:50:23 <maaku> blind signatures are still not yet intuitive to me
1153 2013-08-27 17:50:30 <maaku> the math at least
1154 2013-08-27 17:50:36 <gmaxwell> you can look at rsa blind signing as homomorphic encryption.
1155 2013-08-27 17:51:02 <gmaxwell> e.g. you have your data and encrypt it.  Then someone else encrypts it. Then you decrypt it... then they decrypt it.
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1159 2013-08-27 17:51:52 <an3k> I want to send 3.2 BTC WITHOUT a fee but Bitcoin-qt keeps saying "The total exceeds your balance when the 0.0001 BTC transaction fee is included."
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1161 2013-08-27 17:52:14 <an3k> In the settings I set the fee to 0.00000000 BTC
1162 2013-08-27 17:52:15 <maaku> an3k: your transaction is probably too large. accept the fee
1163 2013-08-27 17:52:23 <an3k> 3.2 BTC is too large?
1164 2013-08-27 17:52:28 <sipa> large as in bytes
1165 2013-08-27 17:52:42 <gmaxwell> an3k: That would be because the resulting transaction has gigantic data (due to dust in your wallet) and thus can't qualify as a free txn, and your peers wouldn't relay it.
1166 2013-08-27 17:52:45 <sipa> if it needs many small input coins to construct the transaction, it becomes larger
1167 2013-08-27 17:54:24 <an3k> gmaxwell: thanks! dust means the coins I want to send are not "stored" on one address but on some?
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1169 2013-08-27 17:55:19 <gmaxwell> an3k: addresses have nothing to do with it, the bitcoin blockchain has no concept of addresses... it means it comes from multiple payments, instead of a few.
1170 2013-08-27 17:55:51 <gmaxwell> I think 10kbytes (free transaction limit) takes something like 50 inputs to meet.
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1172 2013-08-27 17:56:37 <an3k> hmm, so I can't check how dusty my wallet is? How to clean it up?
1173 2013-08-27 17:56:49 <sipa> you can create a transaction to yourself
1174 2013-08-27 17:56:57 <sipa> but that will require a fee just as well
1175 2013-08-27 17:57:08 <maaku> an3k: send the transaction, accepting the fee
1176 2013-08-27 17:57:10 <maaku> that will clean it up
1177 2013-08-27 17:57:24 <an3k> well, that is exactly what I have done before.
1178 2013-08-27 17:59:02 <gmaxwell> an3k: You should probably change your transaction practices to not generate so much dust.
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1180 2013-08-27 17:59:43 <an3k> gmaxwell: change to what? not sending bitcoins at all? Looks more like either the client or the protocoll sucks a bit.
1181 2013-08-27 17:59:45 <an3k> I can'
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1183 2013-08-27 18:00:26 <sipa> 50 inputs for 3.2 BTC means on average 0.064 BTC prevouts
1184 2013-08-27 18:00:32 <sipa> that's not particularly dusty
1185 2013-08-27 18:00:53 * gmaxwell puts a bet that the the distribution is power-law :P 
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1188 2013-08-27 18:02:08 <michagogo> an3k: If you issue `listunspent`, what are the amounts of the smallest outputs there?
1189 2013-08-27 18:02:08 <an3k> so how does someone creates dust? by using plenty of in-between addresses instead of making one straight origin -> target transaction?
1190 2013-08-27 18:02:22 <michagogo> an3k: Dust is small outputs.
1191 2013-08-27 18:02:23 <sipa> addresses have nothing to do with it
1192 2013-08-27 18:02:37 <gmaxwell> Again, the blockchain has no concept of addresses.
1193 2013-08-27 18:03:40 Belxjander has joined
1194 2013-08-27 18:03:47 <an3k> So sending 0.005 BTC 1000 times (5 BTC) creates more dust than one transaction of 5 BTC?
1195 2013-08-27 18:03:54 <sipa> yes
1196 2013-08-27 18:04:00 <gmaxwell> Yes. 1000 times more.
1197 2013-08-27 18:04:07 <sipa> the basic concept on the blockchain is coins
1198 2013-08-27 18:04:19 <sipa> a transaction is something that consumes coins, and produces new coins
1199 2013-08-27 18:04:36 <sipa> the fee is the different between the value of the consumed and the produced ones
1200 2013-08-27 18:04:49 <sipa> produced coins are assigned to addresses, but that's not relevant
1201 2013-08-27 18:05:00 <sipa> every output of a transaction is a separate coin
1202 2013-08-27 18:05:33 <sipa> read this as well: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
1203 2013-08-27 18:05:42 * gmaxwell contemplates picking back up the priority/free change patch and making it subtract up to 180 bytes for each txin form the data size to incentivize sweeping.
1204 2013-08-27 18:05:54 <sipa> sgtm
1205 2013-08-27 18:06:01 <an3k> michagogo: I only get ONE amount and that's 3.2
1206 2013-08-27 18:06:24 <sipa> the wallet hides the coins
1207 2013-08-27 18:06:30 <sipa> it only shows the total balance
1208 2013-08-27 18:06:35 <sipa> oh
1209 2013-08-27 18:06:37 <sipa> from listunspent?
1210 2013-08-27 18:06:43 <an3k> yes
1211 2013-08-27 18:06:51 <sipa> that's very strange
1212 2013-08-27 18:06:55 <michagogo> Only one {} in the []?
1213 2013-08-27 18:07:01 <an3k> yes
1214 2013-08-27 18:07:09 <sipa> if it was very recent, it would still require a fee
1215 2013-08-27 18:07:13 <sipa> but i would expect a lower one
1216 2013-08-27 18:07:37 <gmaxwell> an3k: how many confirmations does it have, roughly?
1217 2013-08-27 18:07:42 <an3k> 37
1218 2013-08-27 18:08:03 <sipa> if you wait a few hours it may become free
1219 2013-08-27 18:08:57 <gmaxwell> yea, that should be free after about 45 blocks or so.
1220 2013-08-27 18:09:07 Belxjander has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1221 2013-08-27 18:10:25 <saivann> I plan to merge the "Protect your privacy" page on bitcoin.org tomorrow: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/220
1222 2013-08-27 18:10:28 <saivann> More proofreading / reviews are welcome. If someone would like to ask for a bit more time to review, please leave a comment.
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1227 2013-08-27 18:11:54 <michagogo> saivann: Is there a rendered HTML version of that available?
1228 2013-08-27 18:12:00 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1230 2013-08-27 18:12:07 <saivann> mignagogo: Yes http://bitcoinprivacy.zapto.org/en/protect-your-privacy
1231 2013-08-27 18:12:09 <michagogo> (or even just linewrapped)
1232 2013-08-27 18:12:13 <michagogo> Okay, thanks
1233 2013-08-27 18:12:20 <michagogo> Oh, wait
1234 2013-08-27 18:12:24 <michagogo> That was in the message
1235 2013-08-27 18:12:27 <michagogo> sorry
1236 2013-08-27 18:12:40 <saivann> michagogo: Thanks, your review is appreciated
1237 2013-08-27 18:13:38 <michagogo> "or a different wallet"? o_O
1238 2013-08-27 18:14:30 <gmaxwell> saivann: I don't think zerocoin should be mentioned— I'm relatively confident that it's not something the bitcoin system would ever include.
1239 2013-08-27 18:14:53 wiretapped has joined
1240 2013-08-27 18:14:55 <gmaxwell> (or really the coinjoin stuff either, it's not yet stuff random users can use yet)
1241 2013-08-27 18:15:25 <michagogo> Also, while the IP address thing *is* something to keep in mind, I think the page makes it seem a little too serious of a concern than it is
1242 2013-08-27 18:15:27 <saivann> michagogo: Multibit offers multi-wallet, I remember Gavin saying that this was better than coin control when it comes to privacy. Actually, this even prevents multiple inputs to be tainted when spending.
1243 2013-08-27 18:15:41 <gmaxwell> I'd also not use the word "laundries" and instead say "centeralized mixing service"
1244 2013-08-27 18:15:53 <saivann> Very useful feedback
1245 2013-08-27 18:15:53 <michagogo> Because of the whole flood-fill thing, an attacker would need to be monitoring a large number of different nodes
1246 2013-08-27 18:16:07 <sipa> saivann: I agree that multiple wallets is more useful than coin control for privacy protection
1247 2013-08-27 18:16:17 <sipa> coin control works, but requires micromanagent
1248 2013-08-27 18:17:14 <michagogo> I agree about leaving out zerocoin, but I think the trustless-mixing part (a.k.a. CoinJoin) may be worth mentioning
1249 2013-08-27 18:17:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: There are some tradeoffs though, multiwallet can't spend more than the value of any particular wallet.
1250 2013-08-27 18:17:49 <saivann> michagogo: Any suggestion to make "IP address monitoring" looks less of an important concern?
1251 2013-08-27 18:18:32 <michagogo> Not sure.
1252 2013-08-27 18:18:56 Belxjander has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1253 2013-08-27 18:19:04 <michagogo> Maybe something relating to the fact that to actually get useful information you'd need access to a significant number of nodes?
1254 2013-08-27 18:19:13 * michagogo isn't good at copywriteing-type stuff
1255 2013-08-27 18:19:31 <gmaxwell> saivann: I don't know why you say thats its not important, since we've seen complaints about it multiple times.
1256 2013-08-27 18:19:32 <saivann> michagogo: Thanks, that's fine, I'll try something
1257 2013-08-27 18:20:40 <gmaxwell> saivann: the webwallets advice is odd, since it doesn't apply to the most popular webwallet.
1258 2013-08-27 18:21:00 <gmaxwell> And, in fact, elsewhere we've avoided listing some things where its true.
1259 2013-08-27 18:21:06 <gmaxwell> (for security reasons)
1260 2013-08-27 18:21:06 <saivann> gmaxwell : Complaints about IP address monitoring
1261 2013-08-27 18:21:08 <saivann> ?
1262 2013-08-27 18:21:29 <gmaxwell> saivann: e.g. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2653
1263 2013-08-27 18:22:02 <gmaxwell> which seems to be something of an outlier, but certantly there have been people showing up in irc asking how to avoid putting their IP in their transactions because they found them listed on bc.i.
1264 2013-08-27 18:22:52 <maaku> gmaxwell: Ok sorry for being dense, but I think I now understand. Owner provides blinded hash of output. Organizer of the mix signs this and others, generating a randomly shuffled list of the signed, blinded hash of outputs. The owner then removes the blind from the signature and anonymously posts the resulting signed hash of output with the hash preimage. Is this correct?
1265 2013-08-27 18:23:28 santoscork has joined
1266 2013-08-27 18:24:02 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Wow, I didn't know people had actually been burned by that. o_O
1267 2013-08-27 18:24:06 <gmaxwell> maaku: Yes. Correct.  I wasn't presupposing an "owner", e.g. the users themselves could reconnect (e.g. say this is all happening in IRC) over tor and posts their values.
1268 2013-08-27 18:24:28 <saivann> gmaxwell : Perhaps this part should be rewritten to actually reflect that IP address is generally a poor way to identify your own transaction, but it can be used to suspect you to be the issuer of someone else transaction?
1269 2013-08-27 18:24:45 <gmaxwell> saivann: and that IP address issue is especially a concern for SPV wallets since they only relay their own transactions. :(
1270 2013-08-27 18:24:51 <michagogo> saivann: Er, what?
1271 2013-08-27 18:25:02 <michagogo> "it can be used to suspect you to be the issuer of someone else transaction?"?
1272 2013-08-27 18:25:21 <saivann> michagogo : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2653
1273 2013-08-27 18:25:30 <michagogo> I read that, yeah
1274 2013-08-27 18:26:12 <maaku> By owner I just meant the person who controls the inputs.
1275 2013-08-27 18:26:15 <michagogo> But I don't necessarily think this should be on that page -- if anything it just demonstrates that the IP address thing is less of an issue
1276 2013-08-27 18:26:24 <michagogo> (in this particular context, that is)
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1278 2013-08-27 18:26:25 <gmaxwell> saivann: can you give me 24 hours to propose some text for you? :)
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1282 2013-08-27 18:27:18 <saivann> gmaxwell: or a week, of course
1283 2013-08-27 18:27:22 <maaku> gmaxwell: My last bit of uncertainty then is why you need N^2 signatures. Can't one person do the shuffle and sign, then the others just reveal their token, thereby agreeing to it?
1284 2013-08-27 18:27:45 <gmaxwell> michagogo: if BC.i is connected to you it has a 3/4 chance of correctly displaying your IP on any txn you originate.
1285 2013-08-27 18:27:57 <gmaxwell> saivann: imagining a deadline is helpful to my time management. :P
1286 2013-08-27 18:28:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: you have 42 seconds.
1287 2013-08-27 18:28:10 <saivann> Dropped zerocoin mention and text about web wallets
1288 2013-08-27 18:28:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: and counting.
1289 2013-08-27 18:28:14 <maaku> lol
1290 2013-08-27 18:28:23 joepie92 has joined
1291 2013-08-27 18:28:24 <gmaxwell> maaku: because that person could sign additional fake tokens.
1292 2013-08-27 18:28:48 <maaku> gmaxwell: hrm.. i'll go offline and think about that instead of taking up more of your time
1293 2013-08-27 18:29:19 cads has joined
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1295 2013-08-27 18:30:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: only works when its a realistic target. :P
1296 2013-08-27 18:30:59 <sipa> You have 42 minutes.
1297 2013-08-27 18:31:26 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1298 2013-08-27 18:31:41 <gmaxwell> hah. Careful, we're going to put you in management.
1299 2013-08-27 18:31:54 <michagogo> gmaxwell: You now have 41 minutes.
1300 2013-08-27 18:32:03 <saivann> :)
1301 2013-08-27 18:32:04 <michagogo> (as of 5 seconds after I said that)
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1352 2013-08-27 19:32:42 <an3k> After one hour how many confirmations a transaction (no fee) should have?
1353 2013-08-27 19:33:21 <michagogo> an3k: The fee only affects the time to first confirmation
1354 2013-08-27 19:33:37 <michagogo> Once a transaction as one confirmation, each further block is another confirmation.
1355 2013-08-27 19:34:16 <an3k> thx! So should it have already the 1st conf?
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1357 2013-08-27 19:34:47 <michagogo> Not necessarily
1358 2013-08-27 19:35:14 <michagogo> It depends on transaction size, amount, input age, among other things
1359 2013-08-27 19:35:43 <an3k> ok, thanks for the infos :)
1360 2013-08-27 19:36:50 <sipa> an3k: 6 confirmations per hour, after the first confirmation
1361 2013-08-27 19:37:19 <michagogo> (although they'll be a bit faster as long as hashrate keeps rising)
1362 2013-08-27 19:37:39 <sipa> for a 3.2 BTC (typical) transaction, you need around 45 confirmations to allow it to go for free
1363 2013-08-27 19:37:53 <Luke-Jr> an3k: if you don't pay enough fee, it might NEVER confirm
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1365 2013-08-27 19:39:28 <helo> woah, that's like, forever!
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1368 2013-08-27 19:40:51 <longcat_> are bitcoin wallet clients supposed to also join irc servers???
1369 2013-08-27 19:40:56 patcon has joined
1370 2013-08-27 19:41:50 <sipa> not anymore since v0.6 or so
1371 2013-08-27 19:42:22 <longcat_> I see...  thanks
1372 2013-08-27 19:43:43 <sipa> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3541/how-secure-are-the-dns-servers-for-bitcoin
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1379 2013-08-27 19:47:15 <longcat_> thank you very kindly.  I don't like anything that connects to irc servers without my explicit knowledge...  haha
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1387 2013-08-27 19:53:50 <koentje> gmaxwell: I have been told in #debian you know gpg quite well... If I've created a gpg subkey and I give that pubkey to others to import, will they have to re-import/re-sign that key if I will start using another subkey generated from the same master key (for example because the first one expired)?
1388 2013-08-27 19:54:13 <koentje> I've notived that if I generate a new subkey for signing under my master key, it has a different ID than the original one, is this expected? Or do only encryption keys keep the same ID? (and myencryption pub key is the one I give others right?)
1389 2013-08-27 19:54:57 <koentje> (hmm, my new encryption subkey also has a different ID from the original one)
1390 2013-08-27 19:55:25 <gmaxwell> koentje: the subkey ids are of the subkeys. But normally no one uses the subkey IDs for anything.
1391 2013-08-27 19:57:24 <koentje> not even if I would give my subkey to others? Isn't that the key they will import? I thought the idea behind subkeys was that you didn't have to make your never expiring 'master' keypair public?
1392 2013-08-27 19:59:58 <sipa> you always import the entire key, main + subkeys; afaik
1393 2013-08-27 20:00:23 <koentje> hmm, then what's the point of having subkeys?
1394 2013-08-27 20:00:23 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1395 2013-08-27 20:00:44 <sipa> different keys for different purposes, with different expiration times
1396 2013-08-27 20:01:11 <gmaxwell> koentje: so that you can rotate your encryption keys (e.g. make them expire, or change their security)
1397 2013-08-27 20:01:15 <koentje> according to https://wiki.debian.org/subkeys it is the subkeys you can distribute, and if they ever get compromised you can create new subkeys and distribute them, without having to build up a new reputation
1398 2013-08-27 20:01:43 <gmaxwell> koentje: e.g. you keep your master _private_ key offline
1399 2013-08-27 20:01:48 <koentje> gmaxwell: that makes sense, but mostly if others don't have to re-import/re-sign your new subkey... That's whats confusing me
1400 2013-08-27 20:01:51 <gmaxwell> and then you give everyone your master _public_ key
1401 2013-08-27 20:02:03 <gmaxwell> and you have a subkey _private_ key online
1402 2013-08-27 20:02:27 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
1403 2013-08-27 20:02:40 <gmaxwell> and if that online subkey is compromised
1404 2013-08-27 20:02:51 <gmaxwell> then you can replace it. and resign with your offline master.
1405 2013-08-27 20:02:59 <gmaxwell> and then people don't need to resign anything.
1406 2013-08-27 20:03:23 <koentje> hmm, but the keys come in pairs right? so if someone encrypts something with my master public key, I will need my master private key to decrypt it right?
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1408 2013-08-27 20:03:43 <sipa> you can choose which purposes which keys can be used for
1409 2013-08-27 20:03:52 <gmaxwell> koentje: no one ever ever encrypts with that, keys have roles. The master key is only used to sign the other stuff.
1410 2013-08-27 20:03:56 <sipa> for the most extreme case, the master key is only for protecting your identity
1411 2013-08-27 20:04:10 <sipa> and you have separate subkeys for signing and encrypting
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1413 2013-08-27 20:04:23 <sipa> so others can only use that particular subkey
1414 2013-08-27 20:04:32 <sipa> which typically has limited lifetime
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1416 2013-08-27 20:05:14 <koentje> gmaxwell, sipa: right, ok
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1418 2013-08-27 20:05:59 <koentje> so if I give someone a public encryption subkey, and it expires, I will have to distribute my new subkey, and they will have to re-import it right?
1419 2013-08-27 20:06:15 <koentje> but will it be automatically trusted since they can see it has been signed by the same master key?
1420 2013-08-27 20:06:23 <koentje> (since my master public is online as well?)
1421 2013-08-27 20:06:40 <sipa> yes
1422 2013-08-27 20:06:41 <koentje> and can you tell if to subkeys have been created from the same master pair?
1423 2013-08-27 20:06:48 <gmaxwell> Correct. If it expires it'll yell at them and tell them to get an updated key.
1424 2013-08-27 20:06:54 <sipa> they're not created from the master key
1425 2013-08-27 20:06:58 <sipa> but the master key signs them
1426 2013-08-27 20:07:00 <gmaxwell> koentje: they're signed by the masterkey.
1427 2013-08-27 20:07:03 <koentje> right....
1428 2013-08-27 20:07:24 <koentje> so I should publish both my master signing public key, and and encryption public (sub) key?
1429 2013-08-27 20:08:28 <sipa> you just export the entire public key
1430 2013-08-27 20:08:55 <koentje> and that would be a signed public sub key?
1431 2013-08-27 20:09:55 <koentje> and you can tell that a particular subkey is signed by the same master signing key as another subkey? (that would make sense if people don't have to re-trust it, but it wouldn't make sense if you would use them for different identities that you would like to keep separate)
1432 2013-08-27 20:10:17 <koentje> (I really appreciate that you two are taking the time to help me btw:))
1433 2013-08-27 20:10:24 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1434 2013-08-27 20:12:00 <gmaxwell> You wouldn't use subkeys for different identities that you would like to keep separate
1435 2013-08-27 20:12:08 <gmaxwell> you'd just use seperate keys.
1436 2013-08-27 20:12:27 <gmaxwell> you might use subkeys for different devices, e.g. your laptop vs your home.. to contain compromise.
1437 2013-08-27 20:13:48 <koentje> right, ok... And people would automatically trust the keys both from my laptop and from my home, since they're signed by the same master key?
1438 2013-08-27 20:14:03 <gmaxwell> yes.
1439 2013-08-27 20:14:16 <gmaxwell> unless/until you revoke them.
1440 2013-08-27 20:14:23 <gmaxwell> (and they hear about the revocation)
1441 2013-08-27 20:14:32 <gmaxwell> and expiration exists to make sure people hear about the revocation.
1442 2013-08-27 20:14:41 <koentje> yeah, ok
1443 2013-08-27 20:14:51 <koentje> and with both I could decrypt messages encrypted with my master public key?
1444 2013-08-27 20:14:59 <koentje> (which is the one I will publish)
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1446 2013-08-27 20:15:19 <sipa> you publish all
1447 2013-08-27 20:15:40 <sipa> and you can decrypt messages encrypted to any key, assumed the key (or subkey) was marked for encryption
1448 2013-08-27 20:16:01 <koentje> alright, even with another key?
1449 2013-08-27 20:16:19 <sipa> no
1450 2013-08-27 20:16:28 <sipa> but you just mark one key for encryption
1451 2013-08-27 20:16:38 <sipa> and people will encrypt to that one
1452 2013-08-27 20:16:44 <koentje> so if somebody sends me an messsage, they will have to choose weither I can read it on my laptop or at home?
1453 2013-08-27 20:16:56 <sipa> ah, you're talking about actual separate keys, not subkeys?
1454 2013-08-27 20:16:59 <sipa> yes
1455 2013-08-27 20:17:11 <koentje> no, I'm talking about subkeys
1456 2013-08-27 20:17:23 <sipa> all subkeys are published together
1457 2013-08-27 20:17:30 <koentje> ah, ok
1458 2013-08-27 20:17:43 <sipa> in theory perhaps you could have two subkeys for encryption
1459 2013-08-27 20:18:01 <sipa> split over separate devices, and then people would indeed have to choose which you can read it on (or both)
1460 2013-08-27 20:18:03 <koentje> so I should decide on how many subkeys I want to use before I publish my key then...
1461 2013-08-27 20:18:13 <sipa> but i don't know how much software would actually give you that choice
1462 2013-08-27 20:18:17 <koentje> ok
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1464 2013-08-27 20:18:35 <sipa> don't micromanage :)
1465 2013-08-27 20:19:05 <koentje> but if I do gpg --export when I have multiple encryption subkeys, it will kind of merge them and create a public key that creates messages I can decrypt with any of the private subkeys?
1466 2013-08-27 20:19:08 <koentje> no, true...
1467 2013-08-27 20:19:47 <sipa> you always need the corresponding private key to the one messages where encrypted to
1468 2013-08-27 20:19:48 <koentje> what I want, is to be able to set an expire date, without having to tell people to use the other key (or at least without having to re-verify the new key) at the time it's expired
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1470 2013-08-27 20:19:59 <sipa> that's exactly what subkeys are for
1471 2013-08-27 20:20:06 <sipa> make a master key without any roles
1472 2013-08-27 20:20:15 <sipa> and add a sign/encrypt subkey with limited lifetime
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1474 2013-08-27 20:20:31 <koentje> and then I would export just the subkey?
1475 2013-08-27 20:20:40 <sipa> no you always export all keys
1476 2013-08-27 20:20:47 <koentje> right, right ok
1477 2013-08-27 20:20:53 <sipa> without the master, people have no idea whom it belongs to
1478 2013-08-27 20:21:05 <sipa> but only the subkey has the 'you can use this for encryption!' flag set
1479 2013-08-27 20:21:13 <koentje> right.
1480 2013-08-27 20:21:33 <koentje> so by 'all keys', you mean subkey + master key? Not neccesairily all subkeys + master key?
1481 2013-08-27 20:21:41 <sipa> all subkeys + master key
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1483 2013-08-27 20:21:50 <koentje> ok...
1484 2013-08-27 20:22:00 <sipa> well, not necessarily, but i see no reason for not exporting all
1485 2013-08-27 20:22:09 <sipa> don't micromanage
1486 2013-08-27 20:22:14 <koentje> and an message encrypted with that 'super key' could be decrypted with any of the private subkeys?
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1488 2013-08-27 20:22:23 <sipa> aaargh
1489 2013-08-27 20:22:34 <sipa> the message is encrypted to the encryption subkey
1490 2013-08-27 20:22:37 <koentje> true... the thing is, I would also like to be able to seperately revoke the private key used on my phone if I lose it
1491 2013-08-27 20:22:55 <koentje> but there might be multiple encryption subkeys right?
1492 2013-08-27 20:22:58 <sipa> the master key is there to provide an identity
1493 2013-08-27 20:23:15 <sipa> the subkeys are there for signing/encrypting messages
1494 2013-08-27 20:23:24 <koentje> (sorry if I'm frusterating you... its just a bit hard for me)
1495 2013-08-27 20:23:46 <sipa> a message is encrypted to a specific subkey
1496 2013-08-27 20:23:56 <koentje> ok, I get that. That's why it suprised me that you would export all keys together (even if that includes multiple encryption sub keys)
1497 2013-08-27 20:23:58 <koentje> ok
1498 2013-08-27 20:23:59 <sipa> you need the private key corresponding to that subkey to decrypt it
1499 2013-08-27 20:24:03 <koentje> ok
1500 2013-08-27 20:24:13 <sipa> well there would only be several subkeys if some have expired
1501 2013-08-27 20:24:16 <sipa> and you needed a new one
1502 2013-08-27 20:24:19 <sipa> or was revoked
1503 2013-08-27 20:24:30 <sipa> or if you want separate subkeys for signing and for encryption
1504 2013-08-27 20:24:46 <sipa> initially, you'll have one master key and one subkey
1505 2013-08-27 20:24:57 <koentje> yeah... I was hoping to have different keys for different devices though. But if messages need to be encrypted to either one that's not cool
1506 2013-08-27 20:25:04 <koentje> yeah, ok
1507 2013-08-27 20:25:53 <koentje> damn this is hard
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1510 2013-08-27 20:26:38 <koentje> if I sign stuff with a signing subkey, people will validate that with the public part of that subkey. But could they also validate it with the public part of the master signing key?
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1512 2013-08-27 20:27:01 <sipa> they validate the message's integrity with the public subkey
1513 2013-08-27 20:27:12 <koentje> ok
1514 2013-08-27 20:27:19 <sipa> the public master key is only there so they know that public subkey is yours
1515 2013-08-27 20:27:35 <koentje> right, ok
1516 2013-08-27 20:27:37 <sipa> so they need to have both
1517 2013-08-27 20:28:14 <koentje> I think I now know how I should use subkeys... One for each 'identity' (email address) (that I don't mind being associated with each other), with an expiration date
1518 2013-08-27 20:28:25 <sipa> NO
1519 2013-08-27 20:28:33 <sipa> you have one master key for each identity
1520 2013-08-27 20:28:43 <koentje> ohw, ok
1521 2013-08-27 20:28:53 <sipa> well, or even one master key for multiple identities
1522 2013-08-27 20:29:01 <sipa> if you don't mind them being linked
1523 2013-08-27 20:29:16 <sipa> the subkeys are purely for helping you protect the private keys
1524 2013-08-27 20:29:26 <sipa> and are shared among all identities
1525 2013-08-27 20:30:00 <koentje> yeah, ok, that's what I meant. You should only use the same master key pair for identities if you don't mind those identities being associated with each other
1526 2013-08-27 20:30:09 <koentje> but I guess you might as well just create another keypair...
1527 2013-08-27 20:30:13 <sipa> you may want to move this to #gnupg
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1529 2013-08-27 20:30:51 <koentje> ah! I feel stupid, I did a /list -re but forget the '#'... I was suprised there was no gpg channel:P
1530 2013-08-27 20:31:00 <koentje> alright, I'll move there
1531 2013-08-27 20:31:11 <koentje> but you have helped me quite alot already!
1532 2013-08-27 20:31:24 <koentje> I understand subkeys a lot better than before I came here:)
1533 2013-08-27 20:31:26 <koentje> thanks:)
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1582 2013-08-27 21:23:18 <gavinandresen> sipa: no luck getting 0.8.3 leveldb corruption on my OSX machine, it did 240 unclean shutdowns last night (I also threw in 20 sleep/wake cycles using the OSX SleepX utility).
1583 2013-08-27 21:24:07 <sipa> gavinandresen: bah
1584 2013-08-27 21:24:14 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1585 2013-08-27 21:24:16 <sipa> i'm really puzzled at what causes it
1586 2013-08-27 21:24:24 sh_sh has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0/20130803192641])
1587 2013-08-27 21:24:29 <sipa> iirc toffoo reported that no 0.8 so far has been usable at all for him
1588 2013-08-27 21:25:58 <CodeShark> errors that are hard to reproduce are the most annoying
1589 2013-08-27 21:26:17 <gmaxwell> maybe it only fails when you have a hard disk drive that does write caching?
1590 2013-08-27 21:26:25 <sipa> or some particular filesystem
1591 2013-08-27 21:26:29 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1592 2013-08-27 21:26:34 <sipa> or a particular version of osx
1593 2013-08-27 21:26:41 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1594 2013-08-27 21:26:42 <toffoo> sipa hey there
1595 2013-08-27 21:26:50 <sipa> gavinandresen: did you reindex?
1596 2013-08-27 21:26:52 <gmaxwell> I know that many people have reportinged it _constantly_ failing, as in every time they turn the machine off uncleanly.
1597 2013-08-27 21:26:58 <gavinandresen> I'll run the stress test again tonight with the blockchain on a spinning drive (test last night was SSD where I DID see corruption in the past).
1598 2013-08-27 21:27:28 <gavinandresen> sipa: no, didn't reindex.
1599 2013-08-27 21:27:40 <sipa> that probably helps stressing it
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1601 2013-08-27 21:28:54 <gavinandresen> ok, I'll throw reindexing into the test
1602 2013-08-27 21:28:58 <sipa> thanks!
1603 2013-08-27 21:29:30 <sipa> btw, headers-first is very close to be usable, but it'll probably be until this weekend before i work on it again
1604 2013-08-27 21:30:24 <sipa> however, after that i'll be on vacation with little internet connection for two weeks
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1607 2013-08-27 21:35:33 <toffoo> hey guys, I wanted to try out this new 0.8.4test on this same machine that's given me so much trouble with the previous 0.8 releases,
1608 2013-08-27 21:35:44 <gmaxwell> toffoo: great!
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1610 2013-08-27 21:35:52 <toffoo> which way should I do it to be most scientific: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-23232783
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1613 2013-08-27 21:36:02 <sipa> toffoo: i'd reindex
1614 2013-08-27 21:36:12 <sipa> that's the most stressful usually
1615 2013-08-27 21:36:52 <toffoo> okie, I've give this a try tonight and report results tomorrow..thanks!
1616 2013-08-27 21:37:17 <sipa> great, thanks!
1617 2013-08-27 21:37:17 <sipa> loading bootstrap.dat is the same process as reindexing, except it only goes as far as the bootstrap goes
1618 2013-08-27 21:37:23 <sipa> + copying the data
1619 2013-08-27 21:40:44 <sipa> and: (a b . c d $ g e)    is the same as ((a b) . (c d)) $ (g e)
1620 2013-08-27 21:40:48 viperhr has joined
1621 2013-08-27 21:41:19 <sipa> eh, wrong window!
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1635 2013-08-27 22:04:04 <maaku> doing work in haskell?
1636 2013-08-27 22:04:20 <maaku> i've been wanting to do a haskell client for some time
1637 2013-08-27 22:04:58 <Luke-Jr> maaku: you ate with a guy who did :P
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1653 2013-08-27 22:29:59 <BlueMatt> Goonie: pong
1654 2013-08-27 22:30:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: "ate" :o
1655 2013-08-27 22:30:08 <sipa> maaku: you know purecoin by roconnor?
1656 2013-08-27 22:30:27 <sipa> he's alive!
1657 2013-08-27 22:30:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: weren't you there too?
1658 2013-08-27 22:30:36 <BlueMatt> Goonie: at very random times during the day I login and see what pings Ive got...usually just send me pm's and Ill read them when I get back and respond...
1659 2013-08-27 22:30:47 fant has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1660 2013-08-27 22:30:50 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt!
1661 2013-08-27 22:30:57 <BlueMatt> sipa: nope, actually coming to you from hell
1662 2013-08-27 22:31:02 <BlueMatt> well...ok, they rejected me too :(
1663 2013-08-27 22:31:22 <BlueMatt> anyway, whats up bitcoiners?
1664 2013-08-27 22:31:45 viperhr has joined
1665 2013-08-27 22:31:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: everything is broken, I've been getting nothing useful done, same old same old.
1666 2013-08-27 22:32:13 <BlueMatt> so...same as in the past 3 years?
1667 2013-08-27 22:32:25 <BlueMatt> I assume sipa is still getting some astoundingly scary inhuman amount of work done
1668 2013-08-27 22:32:43 <sipa> me? :o
1669 2013-08-27 22:32:46 <BlueMatt> (and probably never actually working for google...)
1670 2013-08-27 22:33:11 <Luke-Jr> lol
1671 2013-08-27 22:33:18 <sipa> hehe
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1673 2013-08-27 22:34:51 banghouse is now known as banghouse|afk
1674 2013-08-27 22:35:06 <sipa> i wish i had more time to get headersfirst sync working :(
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1676 2013-08-27 22:35:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: he's implemented heardersfirst sync.
1677 2013-08-27 22:35:22 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, that I did see
1678 2013-08-27 22:35:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I thought it was working?
1679 2013-08-27 22:35:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: WorksForMe.
1680 2013-08-27 22:35:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ship it!
1681 2013-08-27 22:36:07 * BlueMatt remembers something about 0.9 having it
1682 2013-08-27 22:36:47 <sipa> yeah, it works and has been working for quite a while
1683 2013-08-27 22:37:09 <sipa> but it had some todo's left
1684 2013-08-27 22:37:19 <sipa> like dealing with invalid blocks
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1687 2013-08-27 22:39:18 <sipa> "statistical analysis has shown that less than 0.043% of blocks encountered by network nodes are invalid. We can therefore safely ignore them."
1688 2013-08-27 22:39:45 Guest___ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1689 2013-08-27 22:40:04 <CodeShark> lol - I bet that number would go up if an exploit were found :)
1690 2013-08-27 22:40:19 <gmaxwell> ThatWasTheJoke
1691 2013-08-27 22:40:20 <BlueMatt> heh
1692 2013-08-27 22:40:20 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: noooooo
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1695 2013-08-27 22:41:01 <sipa> CodeShark: captain obvious to the rescue!
1696 2013-08-27 22:41:05 <CodeShark> :)
1697 2013-08-27 22:41:19 <Luke-Jr> lol
1698 2013-08-27 22:41:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: seen my CoinJoin thread?
1699 2013-08-27 22:41:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: which company was it that argued that?
1700 2013-08-27 22:41:52 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no clue
1701 2013-08-27 22:41:57 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: skimmed, looked cool
1702 2013-08-27 22:42:48 <gmaxwell> wait.. someone argued that? :P
1703 2013-08-27 22:43:03 <gmaxwell> I mean, I guess I've seen some alt implementors say things close to that. :P
1704 2013-08-27 22:43:07 <sipa> i just made that number up
1705 2013-08-27 22:43:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think I recall one, yes
1706 2013-08-27 22:43:15 <sipa> alonv with the reasoning
1707 2013-08-27 22:43:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: true, it was probably a company with an alt impl
1708 2013-08-27 22:43:28 <CodeShark> 96.34% of all statistics are made up on the spot
1709 2013-08-27 22:43:29 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
1710 2013-08-27 22:43:31 <Luke-Jr> liek bitcoin-ruby or such
1711 2013-08-27 22:43:39 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: 94.2% actually
1712 2013-08-27 22:43:50 <sipa> but i guess i wouldn't be surprised if someone actually considered it an interesting optimization :)
1713 2013-08-27 22:43:58 <Luke-Jr> oops, 94.3% now
1714 2013-08-27 22:44:07 <CodeShark> sipa: it is an optimization - for nonrelay nodes :)
1715 2013-08-27 22:44:26 <sipa> right
1716 2013-08-27 22:44:50 <gmaxwell> well certantly there are people who proposed relaying blocks before validating them to reduce the latency of the network.
1717 2013-08-27 22:45:08 <gmaxwell> which may well be safe if handled well.
1718 2013-08-27 22:45:21 <CodeShark> what about adding a "validated" flag?
1719 2013-08-27 22:45:36 <gmaxwell> ...
1720 2013-08-27 22:45:38 <sipa> or an evil bit
1721 2013-08-27 22:45:41 <CodeShark> lol
1722 2013-08-27 22:46:26 <CodeShark> wouldn't matter in a zero-trust situation - but might matter when dealing with semitrusted peers
1723 2013-08-27 22:46:33 <gmaxwell> sounds like a good april first CVE.  "OOB access vulnerability in evil bit processing"
1724 2013-08-27 22:46:56 <sipa> well why would an invalid block even be received from a trusted peer?
1725 2013-08-27 22:47:10 <sipa> the only reason to send one is to attack...
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1728 2013-08-27 22:47:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: e.g. a trusted peer might send you an invalid block that they haven't tested yet.
1729 2013-08-27 22:48:32 <sipa> right, in a setting with partial validation it may make sense
1730 2013-08-27 22:48:33 <CodeShark> at the very least it could help with some prioritization optimizations
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1733 2013-08-27 22:51:38 <CodeShark> not really sure the added complexity is worth it
1734 2013-08-27 22:52:08 <CodeShark> it would have to significantly reduce latency
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1755 2013-08-27 23:18:41 <maaku> why does listunspent return [] (on a non-empty wallet)?
1756 2013-08-27 23:19:15 <gmaxwell> maaku: do you have no confirmed spendable coins?
1757 2013-08-27 23:21:14 <maaku> i do... and it appears to work on testnet
1758 2013-08-27 23:21:20 * maaku is testing
1759 2013-08-27 23:21:45 <gmaxwell> It works on the main net too— at least for me, I use it every time I send a transaction, but perhaps you've found a bug.
1760 2013-08-27 23:22:57 <maaku> it may be my own bug, i'm running with modifications
1761 2013-08-27 23:23:56 * gmaxwell would tear up maaku's warranty but he realized the it never existed to begin with.
1762 2013-08-27 23:24:10 <gmaxwell> s/the it/that it/
1763 2013-08-27 23:24:37 <maaku> heh
1764 2013-08-27 23:26:20 <maaku> recompile .. and problem is gone
1765 2013-08-27 23:26:22 <maaku> weird
1766 2013-08-27 23:26:48 <jgarzik> It was expressly implied that no warranty is expressed nor implied.
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1779 2013-08-27 23:39:42 <k9quaint> jgarzik: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!
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1789 2013-08-27 23:57:18 <hydromet> hello
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1791 2013-08-27 23:58:02 <hydromet> I'm having a problem building Bitcoin-Qt from Bitcoin version v0.8.2-174-gc2aca50-beta (cloned from GitHub)
1792 2013-08-27 23:58:48 <hydromet> correction: the problem now is building Bitcoin version v0.8.2-313-gbb7d0fc-beta
1793 2013-08-27 23:59:28 <hydromet> about a month ago I had no problems building Bitcoin-Qt on the same machine from Bitcoin version v0.8.2-174-gc2aca50-beta
1794 2013-08-27 23:59:46 <sipa> ok, what's the problem?