1 2013-08-28 00:00:02 <hydromet> the issue has to do with changes made to bitcoin-qt.pro
   2 2013-08-28 00:00:13 <hydromet> Qt Creator complains as follows:
   3 2013-08-28 00:00:20 <hydromet> share/genbuild.sh:-1: error: line 33: build/build.h: No such file or directory
   4 2013-08-28 00:00:25 <hydromet> share/genbuild.sh:-1: error: line 34: build/build.h: No such file or directory
   5 2013-08-28 00:00:39 <hydromet> I believe I've narrowed this down
   6 2013-08-28 00:00:43 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: are you trying to build on Windows? :/
   7 2013-08-28 00:00:56 <hydromet> nope
   8 2013-08-28 00:00:59 <hydromet> Mac OS X
   9 2013-08-28 00:01:33 <hydromet> the changes to bitcoin-qt.pro that appear to be causing this issue is in the section
  10 2013-08-28 00:01:38 <hydromet> # regenerate build.h
  11 2013-08-28 00:01:48 <hydromet>     genbuild.commands = cd $$PWD; /bin/sh share/genbuild.sh $$OBJECTS_DIR/build.h
  12 2013-08-28 00:01:55 <hydromet>     genbuild.target = $$OBJECTS_DIR/build.h
  13 2013-08-28 00:01:57 <sipa> that hasn't changed in a long time
  14 2013-08-28 00:02:06 <hydromet> ahhh are you sure about that?
  15 2013-08-28 00:02:08 <sipa> yes
  16 2013-08-28 00:02:28 <hydromet> hmm ... looks different on my machine (one moment, I'll get the previous version and paste a few lines)
  17 2013-08-28 00:03:12 <hydromet> here's an excerpt from the previous version I aforementioned
  18 2013-08-28 00:03:17 <hydromet> which built fine
  19 2013-08-28 00:03:18 <hydromet> # regenerate src/build.h
  20 2013-08-28 00:03:25 <hydromet>     genbuild.commands = cd $$PWD; /bin/sh share/genbuild.sh $$OUT_PWD/build/build.h
  21 2013-08-28 00:03:31 <hydromet>     genbuild.target = $$OUT_PWD/build/build.h
  22 2013-08-28 00:03:36 <hydromet>     PRE_TARGETDEPS += $$OUT_PWD/build/build.h
  23 2013-08-28 00:03:53 <hydromet> so there's a difference right there ($$OBJECTS_DIR v.s. $$OUT_PWD)
  24 2013-08-28 00:04:00 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  25 2013-08-28 00:04:16 yubrew_ has joined
  26 2013-08-28 00:04:17 <sipa> oh yes, there's a change
  27 2013-08-28 00:04:27 <hydromet> I'm unfamiliar with Qt Creator and I tried to tweak the new version but no success
  28 2013-08-28 00:04:29 <sipa> sorry, i missed that
  29 2013-08-28 00:04:40 <sipa> i've never used qt creator, so i can't help you i'm afraid
  30 2013-08-28 00:05:00 <hydromet> me too, I'm not familiar with Qt Creator
  31 2013-08-28 00:05:19 <hydromet> I've searched around on the web to see what might need to be done but no luck yet
  32 2013-08-28 00:06:04 <hydromet> was there a reason why bitcoin-qt.pro was changed recently as noted above?
  33 2013-08-28 00:06:11 sacredchao has joined
  34 2013-08-28 00:06:32 owowo has joined
  35 2013-08-28 00:07:07 <hydromet> this is going to be a problem that eventually needs to be fixed since eventually the code will be used to build a binary for those who want to download the pre-built app etc
  36 2013-08-28 00:08:27 stephantual has joined
  37 2013-08-28 00:11:06 <gavinandresen> yes, the reason it was changed was to support building the Qt unit tests without having to 'make clean' first
  38 2013-08-28 00:11:39 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  39 2013-08-28 00:12:08 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  40 2013-08-28 00:12:57 <gavinandresen> RE: eventually be a problem for building binaries:  Qt Creator isn't used to create binaries, they're done with qmake/make command-line tools
  41 2013-08-28 00:12:58 <sipa> hydromet: well building from the command line works fine
  42 2013-08-28 00:13:26 <Diablo-D3> isnt qt creator the ui builder tool?
  43 2013-08-28 00:13:31 reneg__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  44 2013-08-28 00:15:22 <gavinandresen> hydromet: try telling Qt Creator to use the main Bitcon directory as the build directory, and ignore it complaining about "Qt doesn't support a build directory underneat the .pro directory"
  45 2013-08-28 00:15:50 <hydromet> gavinandresen: I was just about to email you (as I was just looking at my git tree info and noticed you're a regular contributor)
  46 2013-08-28 00:16:13 <sipa> well he's the lead dev :p
  47 2013-08-28 00:16:15 <gavinandresen> I'm not a Qt Creator expert, I've run it about three times.
  48 2013-08-28 00:16:40 reneg has joined
  49 2013-08-28 00:16:49 <sipa> yeah, you want to talk to wumpus or Diapolo about qt creator
  50 2013-08-28 00:16:52 <hydromet> sipa: and gavinandresen: I'm a total newbie
  51 2013-08-28 00:17:24 <hydromet> sipa: how do you build Bitcoin-Qt from the command line? You're also using OS X?
  52 2013-08-28 00:17:32 <sipa> hell no
  53 2013-08-28 00:17:35 <sipa> qmake && make
  54 2013-08-28 00:18:46 <sipa> but read doc/readme-qt.md
  55 2013-08-28 00:18:47 <hydromet> I'll try gavin's suggestion first (using Qt Creator), then try sipa's suggestion (command line)
  56 2013-08-28 00:19:28 <sipa> if you don't intend to use qt-creator (for development), i'd suggest nothing bothering with it
  57 2013-08-28 00:19:47 <sipa> and the readme has all instructions, including for osx
  58 2013-08-28 00:19:57 <hydromet> sipa: great suggestion, I would much prefer to minimize the dev tools I need to learn, so command line sounds better to me
  59 2013-08-28 00:20:46 macboz has joined
  60 2013-08-28 00:21:11 <hydromet> sipa: you also wrote "hell no" (regarding using OS X?) ... is that just a personal preference or are there "issues" or "risks" of using OS X with bitcoin?
  61 2013-08-28 00:21:26 <CodeShark> qmake && make works fine for me in OS X and in linux
  62 2013-08-28 00:21:38 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: there are always risks using proprietary software
  63 2013-08-28 00:21:41 <sipa> hydromet: mostly the first
  64 2013-08-28 00:22:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  65 2013-08-28 00:22:04 <hydromet> Luke-Jr: thanks for confirming qmake && make works fine for you on OS X and Linux
  66 2013-08-28 00:22:06 <Luke-Jr> IIRC Mac is now (percentage-wise) the most compromised OS too
  67 2013-08-28 00:22:16 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: I didn't confirm that.
  68 2013-08-28 00:22:23 <sipa> it works on linux for me
  69 2013-08-28 00:22:25 i2pRelay has joined
  70 2013-08-28 00:22:48 <gavinandresen> My main development machine is OSX; if you want to minimize dependencies and be able to debug, qmake USE_UPNP=- CONFIG+=debug
  71 2013-08-28 00:22:54 <hydromet> ok, I'll try now and see if I can confirm
  72 2013-08-28 00:24:17 patcon_ has joined
  73 2013-08-28 00:24:56 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  74 2013-08-28 00:25:05 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: where did you see that statistic?
  75 2013-08-28 00:25:26 <CodeShark> or did you just make it up? :p
  76 2013-08-28 00:25:35 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: I forget, it was a few months ago.
  77 2013-08-28 00:26:56 PrimeStunna has joined
  78 2013-08-28 00:28:09 sserrano44 has joined
  79 2013-08-28 00:35:25 sserrano44 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  80 2013-08-28 00:41:34 reneg_ has joined
  81 2013-08-28 00:42:04 <hydromet> gavinandresen: on your Mac do you use qmake installed with Qt Creator (installed via the Qt Creator installer DMG) or did you install qmake such as via homebrew?
  82 2013-08-28 00:42:49 <gavinandresen> hydromet: I was using macports qt4-mac package, but needed Qt5 so compiled that myself.
  83 2013-08-28 00:43:21 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  84 2013-08-28 00:44:31 <hydromet> gavinandresen: ah! very cool, I wasn't aware Qt5 could be easily compiled on one's own. I also prefer MacPorts over brew and also noticed the portfile is old (qt4-mac) as you stated
  85 2013-08-28 00:45:14 <hydromet> gavinandresen: I think I should do the same as you did, compile Qt5 on my own. Is it fairly easy to do? Might you have any notes you could share for doing so?
  86 2013-08-28 00:45:33 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, OSX is notoriously insecure among security researchers
  87 2013-08-28 00:45:44 <phantomcircuit> which makes their advertising hilarious
  88 2013-08-28 00:45:50 <gavinandresen> hydromet: let me peek at how I ran the config…  I've got a little bit of a weird setup, because I use clang as the compiler
  89 2013-08-28 00:46:17 <phantomcircuit> example, swap was world readable until 2005 and login didn't use mlock (ie you could read everybodies passwords from the swap file randomly)
  90 2013-08-28 00:46:22 <gavinandresen> (clang-3.3 from macports)
  91 2013-08-28 00:47:24 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  92 2013-08-28 00:48:12 <hydromet> gavinandresen: thanks! I could easily install the clang-3.3 port (I'm currently using Apple's -> /usr/bin/clang )
  93 2013-08-28 00:49:08 <CodeShark> phantomcircuit: a potential exploit does not mean it is often done - for example, OS X is largely used for single-user desktop and laptop computers...far less so for servers or multiuser terminals
  94 2013-08-28 00:50:21 <hydromet> phantomcircuit: good point - and also Apple has a "server" variant of OS X simply "OS X Server" that probably doesn't get beat up on enough
  95 2013-08-28 00:50:47 <gavinandresen> hydromet: bah… can't remember what I done did,and I didn't take notes
  96 2013-08-28 00:51:01 viperhr has joined
  97 2013-08-28 00:52:11 <hydromet> gavinandresen: ok no problem ... is there a reason why I wouldn't be able to use /usr/bin/clang hence why I should or might need the clang-3.3 port in order to make Qt5?
  98 2013-08-28 00:52:16 <gavinandresen> hydromet: ah, didn't build myself, downloaded:  qt-mac-opensource-5.0.2-clang-offline.dmg
  99 2013-08-28 00:53:02 <CodeShark> I think I installed clang on my system via an XCode installation
 100 2013-08-28 00:53:07 patcon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 101 2013-08-28 00:53:15 <hydromet> gavinandresen: Apple's clang is -> Apple LLVM version 4.2 (clang-425.0.28) (based on LLVM 3.2svn)
 102 2013-08-28 00:53:26 <hydromet> CodeShark: yes, same here
 103 2013-08-28 00:53:55 <hydromet> I was just curious if gavin had a reason for using clang 3.3 that might be pertinent to Qt5 / bitcoin
 104 2013-08-28 00:54:21 <CodeShark> I see no reason why newer clang versions wouldn't be backwards compatible
 105 2013-08-28 00:54:23 <gavinandresen> No particular reason, I don't think
 106 2013-08-28 00:55:48 <gavinandresen> hydromet: if it helps, my complete qmake command line is:  /Users/gavin/Qt5.0.2/5.0.2/clang_64/bin/qmake INCLUDEPATH+=/Users/gavin/Qt/5.0.2/clang_64/include CONFIG+=debug USE_UPNP=1 USE_SSL=1 QMAKE_CXX=/opt/local/bin/clang++-mp-3.3 -o Makefile bitcoin-qt.pro
 107 2013-08-28 00:57:03 <hydromet> gavinandresen: I just check my environment and it turns out I essentially did the same thing as you, I installed Qt Creator from qt-mac-opensource-5.1.0-clang-offline.dmg
 108 2013-08-28 00:57:18 nsillik_ has joined
 109 2013-08-28 00:57:48 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, that particular exploit was very widely used
 110 2013-08-28 00:58:01 patcon has joined
 111 2013-08-28 00:58:56 <phantomcircuit> hydromet, apple discontinued 99% of their servers and only sells os x server through mac minis
 112 2013-08-28 00:59:15 <phantomcircuit> hydromet, i suspect specifically because security is a joke and they didn't want a lot of bad pr around it
 113 2013-08-28 00:59:22 <hydromet> gavinandresen, that's awesome, thank you! I will parallel you and install clang 3.3 from MacPorts - that way I can also help contribute to the source in the future and it will be helpful to have similar development setups
 114 2013-08-28 00:59:48 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 115 2013-08-28 00:59:49 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 116 2013-08-28 00:59:49 kuzetsa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 117 2013-08-28 00:59:49 nsillik_ is now known as nsillik
 118 2013-08-28 00:59:57 <hydromet> phantomcircuit: you can also buy a Mac Pro with OS X Server if I'm not mistake
 119 2013-08-28 01:00:07 <hydromet> phantomcircuit: they discontinued the Xserve
 120 2013-08-28 01:00:15 troj has joined
 121 2013-08-28 01:00:31 <hydromet> phantomcircuit: you can also run OS X Server on an iMac or MacBook
 122 2013-08-28 01:00:33 <CodeShark> hydromet: I've been using clang v4.1 and haven't had any problems with building bitcoin-qt
 123 2013-08-28 01:00:37 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 124 2013-08-28 01:01:03 <phantomcircuit> hydromet, either way it's clear that they dont intend for OS X Server to be directly serving content on the public internet
 125 2013-08-28 01:01:24 <hydromet> phantomcircuit: agreed!
 126 2013-08-28 01:01:42 <hydromet> phantomcircuit: it appears they are providing OS X Server for schools and SoHos
 127 2013-08-28 01:01:55 kuzetsa has joined
 128 2013-08-28 01:01:59 reneg has joined
 129 2013-08-28 01:02:06 sserrano44 has joined
 130 2013-08-28 01:02:16 <phantomcircuit> hydromet, there is some amount of group configuration that you can do with Server that cant be done otherwise
 131 2013-08-28 01:02:30 <hydromet> CodeShark: great to know about clang 4.1 working for you, thanks ... I'm also quite familiar with MacPorts so for now I'll parallel gavinandresen
 132 2013-08-28 01:02:35 <phantomcircuit> when they discontinued XServe people bitched and moaned about it
 133 2013-08-28 01:04:37 <CodeShark> oh wait, ouch - I hadn't tried building on OS X in a while...apparently I am running into a few issues
 134 2013-08-28 01:04:59 MoALTz_ has joined
 135 2013-08-28 01:06:02 sebicas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 136 2013-08-28 01:06:10 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 137 2013-08-28 01:07:22 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 138 2013-08-28 01:07:37 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 139 2013-08-28 01:08:32 bizoro has joined
 140 2013-08-28 01:09:27 <hydromet> CodeShark: sorry to hear you're running into some problems ... let's work together to try and figure out what they are
 141 2013-08-28 01:09:44 <hydromet> I'm about to install the clang 3.3 port from MacPorts
 142 2013-08-28 01:09:52 reneg_ has joined
 143 2013-08-28 01:12:28 <CodeShark> hydromet: I did "qmake QMAKE_CXX=clang++ QMAKE_CC=clang" and it gets all the way to the end but then tries using g++, which doesn't recognize the option -Xarch_X86_64
 144 2013-08-28 01:13:08 Z_ has joined
 145 2013-08-28 01:13:11 btcbtc has joined
 146 2013-08-28 01:13:32 Z_ is now known as Guest79384
 147 2013-08-28 01:13:55 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 148 2013-08-28 01:13:56 <CodeShark> looking through the Makefile to see why
 149 2013-08-28 01:14:13 Guest79384 has quit (Client Quit)
 150 2013-08-28 01:15:10 <CodeShark> oh, LINK = g++
 151 2013-08-28 01:15:11 <CodeShark> hmmm
 152 2013-08-28 01:16:03 <CodeShark> yeah, that was the problem
 153 2013-08-28 01:18:39 <CodeShark> hydromet: "qmake QMAKE_CXX=clang++ QMAKE_CC=clang QMAKE_LINK=clang++" seems to work for me
 154 2013-08-28 01:22:37 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 155 2013-08-28 01:23:35 reneg has joined
 156 2013-08-28 01:25:01 <hydromet> CodeShark: thanks for the updates and glad you got it to work (sorry I had stepped away from my machine for a few minutes) ... am now going to try out the clang 3.3 MacPorts option per Gavin's suggestion
 157 2013-08-28 01:25:57 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 158 2013-08-28 01:26:22 melvster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 159 2013-08-28 01:28:40 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 160 2013-08-28 01:29:13 i2pRelay has joined
 161 2013-08-28 01:36:36 <bizoro> I have a noob question, please forgive me if that's not the right channel to post it, how does a bitcoin peer finds another?
 162 2013-08-28 01:37:17 <Diablo-D3> it bootstraps itself using known nodes
 163 2013-08-28 01:37:46 <bizoro> so those nodes are hardcoded in the bitcoin client?
 164 2013-08-28 01:38:20 <Diablo-D3> yes
 165 2013-08-28 01:39:44 <CodeShark> first it tries DNS
 166 2013-08-28 01:39:55 <CodeShark> if dns lookup fails (or is disabled) it uses a hardcoded list
 167 2013-08-28 01:40:08 <gmaxwell> bizoro: this is not the right place for noob questions.
 168 2013-08-28 01:40:14 <gmaxwell> CodeShark's answer isn't great.
 169 2013-08-28 01:40:17 <gmaxwell> :P
 170 2013-08-28 01:40:31 <CodeShark> no, it's super great :p
 171 2013-08-28 01:40:34 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 172 2013-08-28 01:41:30 <gmaxwell> The primary mechnism of finding peers in bitcoin is the address rumoring, you learn about peers from other peers and save a collection on disk.  Though for fast startup and initial bootstrapping it can get peers from dns from a couple names run by technical people.  There is, as mentioned, a static list.. it also uses any peers manually configured with addnode, connect, or an addr.txt.
 173 2013-08-28 01:42:11 wamatt has quit (Quit: wamatt)
 174 2013-08-28 01:43:08 <bizoro> gmaxwell: Thanks =]
 175 2013-08-28 01:46:55 reneg has joined
 176 2013-08-28 01:53:33 stevedekorte has joined
 177 2013-08-28 01:56:57 <Cusipzzz> i find my peers on craigslist >.>
 178 2013-08-28 01:57:08 stevedekorte has quit (Client Quit)
 179 2013-08-28 01:58:43 <warren> gmaxwell: could that be improved with future metrics of "these peers were actually useful to me in the past month" to guard against rumor flooding?
 180 2013-08-28 01:58:46 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 181 2013-08-28 01:59:25 <gmaxwell> warren: it's already substantially more sophicated than what you're thinking about, I suggest reading the comment in the code.
 182 2013-08-28 01:59:51 <warren> gmaxwell: ok thanks.
 183 2013-08-28 01:59:52 <gmaxwell> (also, LTC was attacked with addr flooding, and deployed our code for this in advance of us merging it in order to cure the attack.. but this was before your time)
 184 2013-08-28 02:00:27 <warren> yeah, I'm a youngin
 185 2013-08-28 02:01:28 stephantua has joined
 186 2013-08-28 02:01:33 patcon_ has joined
 187 2013-08-28 02:01:47 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 188 2013-08-28 02:02:24 <gmaxwell> :P
 189 2013-08-28 02:03:54 Subo1977_ has joined
 190 2013-08-28 02:04:23 banghouse has joined
 191 2013-08-28 02:05:06 AusBitBank_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 192 2013-08-28 02:05:34 stephantual has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 193 2013-08-28 02:05:37 AusBitBank_ has joined
 194 2013-08-28 02:05:50 hotsocks has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 195 2013-08-28 02:06:04 banghouse is now known as afk!~banghouse@rrcs-184-75-105-24.nyc.biz.rr.com|banghouse
 196 2013-08-28 02:06:40 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 197 2013-08-28 02:07:44 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 198 2013-08-28 02:08:29 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 199 2013-08-28 02:08:43 hotsocks has joined
 200 2013-08-28 02:14:01 cads has joined
 201 2013-08-28 02:15:38 <TheLordOfTime> ;;op
 202 2013-08-28 02:15:55 cads has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 203 2013-08-28 02:17:47 cads has joined
 204 2013-08-28 02:17:59 PrimeStunna_ has joined
 205 2013-08-28 02:18:01 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 206 2013-08-28 02:19:15 PrimeStunna has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 207 2013-08-28 02:19:15 PrimeStunna_ is now known as PrimeStunna
 208 2013-08-28 02:19:29 Belkaar has joined
 209 2013-08-28 02:21:25 jcorgan has joined
 210 2013-08-28 02:27:00 PrimeStunna has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 211 2013-08-28 02:28:00 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 212 2013-08-28 02:28:53 PrimeStunna has joined
 213 2013-08-28 02:34:31 mattco has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 214 2013-08-28 02:37:12 MobiusL has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 215 2013-08-28 02:39:57 cads has joined
 216 2013-08-28 02:40:26 deego` is now known as deego
 217 2013-08-28 02:40:59 Goonie_ has joined
 218 2013-08-28 02:42:28 Goonie has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 219 2013-08-28 02:47:03 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 220 2013-08-28 02:47:33 agricocb has joined
 221 2013-08-28 02:51:31 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 222 2013-08-28 02:58:20 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
 223 2013-08-28 02:59:34 jcorgan has joined
 224 2013-08-28 03:08:54 <hydromet> gavinandresen: I have clang 3.3 via macports installed just fine, and I attempted to use qmake the way you suggested (my paths are somewhat different) ... so I didn't get any errors but it did not appear to build, for example:
 225 2013-08-28 03:09:15 <hydromet> Project MESSAGE: Building with UPNP support
 226 2013-08-28 03:09:24 <hydromet> Removed plural forms as the target language has less forms.
 227 2013-08-28 03:09:30 <hydromet> If this sounds wrong, possibly the target language is not set or recognized.
 228 2013-08-28 03:09:39 <hydromet> the last two lines are merely:
 229 2013-08-28 03:09:44 <hydromet> Project WARNING: No .qmake.cache is present. This significantly slows down qmake with this makespec.
 230 2013-08-28 03:09:51 <hydromet> Project WARNING: Call 'cache()' in the top-level project file to rectify this problem.
 231 2013-08-28 03:10:16 <hydromet> maybe I need to start fresh and clone again from GitHub?
 232 2013-08-28 03:10:31 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 233 2013-08-28 03:12:31 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 234 2013-08-28 03:12:40 TheSeven has joined
 235 2013-08-28 03:13:28 <hydromet> gavinandresen: oops, I forgot to tack on "&& make"
 236 2013-08-28 03:13:39 <hydromet> once  added && make, then I got this error at the end:
 237 2013-08-28 03:13:55 <hydromet> protoc --cpp_out=build --proto_path=src/qt --proto_path=src/qt src/qt/paymentrequest.proto
 238 2013-08-28 03:14:01 <hydromet> make: protoc: No such file or directory
 239 2013-08-28 03:14:08 <hydromet> make: *** [build/paymentrequest.pb.h] Error 1
 240 2013-08-28 03:14:10 <hydromet> sigh
 241 2013-08-28 03:16:11 aa has joined
 242 2013-08-28 03:16:33 aa is now known as Guest48537
 243 2013-08-28 03:17:58 cads has joined
 244 2013-08-28 03:19:44 <CodeShark> you need the protocol buffer compiler?
 245 2013-08-28 03:19:46 <CodeShark> https://code.google.com/p/protobuf/downloads/list
 246 2013-08-28 03:20:35 <CodeShark> there's a macports package
 247 2013-08-28 03:20:48 <CodeShark> protobuf-cpp or something like that
 248 2013-08-28 03:22:36 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 249 2013-08-28 03:22:59 <hydromet> CodeShark: thanks - the weird thing is that an earlier version of bitcoin didn't seem to need this (I had previously easily built Bitcoin-Qt using Qt Creator per the ReadMe docs)
 250 2013-08-28 03:23:03 <hydromet> so something has changed?
 251 2013-08-28 03:25:14 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 252 2013-08-28 03:26:07 <hydromet> CodeShark: indeed there is a MacPorts port named "protobuf-cpp"
 253 2013-08-28 03:26:08 <hydromet> https://trac.macports.org/browser/trunk/dports/devel/protobuf-cpp/Portfile
 254 2013-08-28 03:26:17 <bizoro> hydromet: they now use protobuf... so you can export your wallet to another client if you want
 255 2013-08-28 03:26:18 <hydromet> I wonder if Gavin has this installed on his Mac
 256 2013-08-28 03:26:34 <CodeShark> which branch are you trying to build?
 257 2013-08-28 03:26:48 <hydromet> bizoro: that's great to know! This makes sense then.
 258 2013-08-28 03:27:01 <hydromet> CodeShark: master
 259 2013-08-28 03:27:04 reneg has joined
 260 2013-08-28 03:27:06 <bizoro> hydromet: I mean... I don't know, probably x.x
 261 2013-08-28 03:27:52 <hydromet> bizoro: well, probabilistically this is a change that may have been made since I last built bitcoin qt over 1 month ago
 262 2013-08-28 03:27:58 themsay has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 263 2013-08-28 03:27:59 <hydromet> a lot can probably change in 1 month
 264 2013-08-28 03:28:05 <hydromet> with a fast moving project like bitcoin
 265 2013-08-28 03:28:37 <CodeShark> it's for the payment protocol, not for wallet exports
 266 2013-08-28 03:32:27 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
 267 2013-08-28 03:39:44 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
 268 2013-08-28 03:40:43 <CodeShark> hydromet: specifically, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0070
 269 2013-08-28 03:42:13 <hydromet> CodeShark: excellent, thank!
 270 2013-08-28 03:42:33 <Diablo-D3> [11:25:36] <hydromet> CodeShark: indeed there is a MacPorts port named "protobuf-cpp"
 271 2013-08-28 03:42:39 <Diablo-D3> people dont use macports anymore though
 272 2013-08-28 03:42:48 <Diablo-D3> so Im not sure why you care
 273 2013-08-28 03:43:01 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 274 2013-08-28 03:43:06 <CodeShark> Diablo-D3: hydromet was specifically talking about using macports earlier
 275 2013-08-28 03:43:08 <hydromet> Diablo-D3: I humbly disagree ... gavinandresen: uses MacPorts
 276 2013-08-28 03:43:22 <Diablo-D3> gavin needs to switch to homebrew like everyone else then
 277 2013-08-28 03:43:29 <Diablo-D3> macports and that other one are basically dead now
 278 2013-08-28 03:43:30 <rethaw> can you troll a snark?
 279 2013-08-28 03:43:35 <CodeShark> lol
 280 2013-08-28 03:43:41 <CodeShark> anyhow, enough bikeshedding
 281 2013-08-28 03:43:42 <hydromet> Diablo-D3: I have looked at homebrew
 282 2013-08-28 03:43:45 <rethaw> ya fink
 283 2013-08-28 03:43:50 <rethaw> it's homebrew or bust...
 284 2013-08-28 03:44:11 <hydromet> fink is ancient as well
 285 2013-08-28 03:44:12 <Diablo-D3> homebrew is the only reason I didnt install linux on my new mac
 286 2013-08-28 03:44:27 <Diablo-D3> last time I tried osx full time, osx was a slow pile of shit that needed to die
 287 2013-08-28 03:44:33 <Diablo-D3> and macports and fink didnt help it any
 288 2013-08-28 03:44:38 <rethaw> osx is a great host for linux vm
 289 2013-08-28 03:44:41 <Diablo-D3> seriously, all the software I wnated to use wernt in either
 290 2013-08-28 03:44:43 <hydromet> Diablo-D3: glad homebrew worked out for you
 291 2013-08-28 03:45:02 <Diablo-D3> rethaw: I wanted osx to test software on
 292 2013-08-28 03:45:10 <Diablo-D3> but now Im not targeting languages that need that anymore
 293 2013-08-28 03:45:12 <Diablo-D3> so w/e
 294 2013-08-28 03:45:24 <rethaw> by the way, thanks Diablo-D3 I found a block on an imac using your miner
 295 2013-08-28 03:45:41 <CodeShark> anyhow, I don't particularly care which package manager you use or if you use a package manager - build protoc from source for all I care. point is protoc is necessary because of BIP0070
 296 2013-08-28 03:45:41 <Diablo-D3> if I switch, Im going to wait until one of the wayland desktop environments get hidpi mode
 297 2013-08-28 03:45:54 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: /me shrugs
 298 2013-08-28 03:45:54 <hydromet> but we should be careful - there are plenty of "mere mortals" who run Windows and OS X - if you want more adoption of Bitcoin, you can't thumb noses at them
 299 2013-08-28 03:46:05 <Diablo-D3> yes I can thumb my noses at them
 300 2013-08-28 03:46:07 <Diablo-D3> I do it all the time
 301 2013-08-28 03:46:45 <hydromet> Diablo-D3: well then the "mere mortals" will thumb their noses back and not use Bitcoin and it will remain a niche that never gets enough uptake
 302 2013-08-28 03:46:58 <Diablo-D3> yes, and then they will never be as awesome as I am
 303 2013-08-28 03:47:05 <hydromet> ok whatever
 304 2013-08-28 03:49:12 Application has joined
 305 2013-08-28 03:49:33 <rethaw> bitcoind and bitcoin-qt are more about perfecting the protocol and less about adoption
 306 2013-08-28 03:49:59 <CodeShark> more like proof-of-concept than perfecting :p
 307 2013-08-28 03:49:59 Applicat_ has joined
 308 2013-08-28 03:50:08 <rethaw> although a lot of hard work has gone into the qt client
 309 2013-08-28 03:50:31 <rethaw> adoption is about electrum, blockchain.info, mobile apps, payment processors
 310 2013-08-28 03:50:47 wamatt has joined
 311 2013-08-28 03:51:00 <gavinandresen> yes, mere mortals might use OSX and Windows, but the Unwashed Masses all use cell phones and tablets.
 312 2013-08-28 03:51:45 <rethaw> if that
 313 2013-08-28 03:53:15 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 314 2013-08-28 03:53:47 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 315 2013-08-28 03:54:01 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 316 2013-08-28 03:55:14 wamatt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 317 2013-08-28 03:56:59 patcon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 318 2013-08-28 03:57:34 patcon has joined
 319 2013-08-28 04:01:17 Guest48537 is now known as MobiusL
 320 2013-08-28 04:01:48 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 321 2013-08-28 04:03:14 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
 322 2013-08-28 04:05:25 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 323 2013-08-28 04:05:31 egis has joined
 324 2013-08-28 04:08:16 <hydromet> gavinandresen: its safe to assume you have protocol buffers (dare I ask, as a macport) installed on your Mac as part of your dev environment?
 325 2013-08-28 04:08:25 wei_ has joined
 326 2013-08-28 04:09:21 AtashiCon has joined
 327 2013-08-28 04:09:24 <CodeShark> hydromet: given that BIP0070 uses protobuf and is gavin's baby, I think it's more than a safe assumption :p
 328 2013-08-28 04:09:35 yubrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 329 2013-08-28 04:09:49 <hydromet> CodeShark: ah!
 330 2013-08-28 04:10:25 <gavinandresen> hydromet: yes, see doc/readme-qt.md  I use the protobuf-cpp macports port
 331 2013-08-28 04:10:55 JStoker has quit (Quit: JStoker is gone :()
 332 2013-08-28 04:11:00 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
 333 2013-08-28 04:14:22 Arnavion has joined
 334 2013-08-28 04:19:18 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 335 2013-08-28 04:19:24 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 336 2013-08-28 04:19:38 reneg_ has joined
 337 2013-08-28 04:22:26 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 338 2013-08-28 04:23:52 viperhr has joined
 339 2013-08-28 04:26:14 JStoker has joined
 340 2013-08-28 04:26:16 macboz has joined
 341 2013-08-28 04:27:28 reneg has joined
 342 2013-08-28 04:28:48 Application has joined
 343 2013-08-28 04:29:25 reneg__ has joined
 344 2013-08-28 04:29:49 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 345 2013-08-28 04:30:19 <hydromet> CodeShark: and gavinandresen: a huge thank you for pointing out the protocol buffers dependency ... I diffed the doc/readme-qt.md from my current clone of master v.s. from over a month ago (18 July 2013) and protobuf-cpp is definitely a new addition
 346 2013-08-28 04:30:54 <gavinandresen> yes, I pulled it just a few days ago.
 347 2013-08-28 04:31:09 <hydromet> which make sense since BIP0070 draft published was end of July 2013
 348 2013-08-28 04:31:16 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 349 2013-08-28 04:31:21 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 350 2013-08-28 04:31:34 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 351 2013-08-28 04:31:37 <hydromet> these are exciting times learning about bitcoin!
 352 2013-08-28 04:33:00 Applicat_ has joined
 353 2013-08-28 04:34:00 paracyst has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 354 2013-08-28 04:35:56 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 355 2013-08-28 04:38:40 Ahimoth has joined
 356 2013-08-28 04:39:27 Ahimoth has left ()
 357 2013-08-28 04:39:48 robocoin_ has joined
 358 2013-08-28 04:40:01 paracyst has joined
 359 2013-08-28 04:41:12 reneg__ has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
 360 2013-08-28 04:42:37 reneg has joined
 361 2013-08-28 04:46:30 reneg_ has joined
 362 2013-08-28 04:46:54 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 363 2013-08-28 04:52:53 bizoro has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 364 2013-08-28 04:53:07 ThomasV has joined
 365 2013-08-28 04:54:20 lle has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 366 2013-08-28 04:55:09 Subo1977 has joined
 367 2013-08-28 04:55:21 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 368 2013-08-28 04:55:21 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 369 2013-08-28 05:02:57 sacredchao has joined
 370 2013-08-28 05:03:25 cyphase has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 371 2013-08-28 05:04:41 andkore has joined
 372 2013-08-28 05:05:08 <andkore> man, #bitcoin-tech really needs to get more active
 373 2013-08-28 05:05:34 <andkore> I'd love to have a place to talk about bitcoin development. that is, not development OF bitcoin, but development involving/using bitcoin
 374 2013-08-28 05:06:38 banghouse has joined
 375 2013-08-28 05:07:56 cyphase has joined
 376 2013-08-28 05:11:50 a5m0 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 377 2013-08-28 05:12:17 a5m0 has joined
 378 2013-08-28 05:17:05 msvb-lab has joined
 379 2013-08-28 05:18:37 PrimeStunna has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 380 2013-08-28 05:28:50 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
 381 2013-08-28 05:29:14 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 382 2013-08-28 05:30:27 winbtc_moarrr has joined
 383 2013-08-28 05:31:03 PrimeStunna has joined
 384 2013-08-28 05:31:35 ericmuyser has joined
 385 2013-08-28 05:34:22 malaimo has joined
 386 2013-08-28 05:38:39 altamic has joined
 387 2013-08-28 05:38:59 altamic has left ()
 388 2013-08-28 05:41:55 melvster has joined
 389 2013-08-28 05:43:01 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 390 2013-08-28 05:46:26 Luke-Jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 391 2013-08-28 05:47:10 Application has joined
 392 2013-08-28 05:49:43 darknyan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 393 2013-08-28 05:49:54 Anduck has joined
 394 2013-08-28 05:49:55 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
 395 2013-08-28 05:49:55 Anduck has joined
 396 2013-08-28 05:53:34 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 397 2013-08-28 05:59:33 darknyan has joined
 398 2013-08-28 05:59:52 dust-otc has joined
 399 2013-08-28 06:00:40 Luke-Jr has joined
 400 2013-08-28 06:03:23 abrkn has joined
 401 2013-08-28 06:04:49 magicpig has quit (Quit: leaving)
 402 2013-08-28 06:05:59 nx201 has joined
 403 2013-08-28 06:12:46 random_cat has joined
 404 2013-08-28 06:14:29 gcX46 has quit (Quit: just got NSA'd)
 405 2013-08-28 06:15:32 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 406 2013-08-28 06:20:40 andkore has left ("Leaving")
 407 2013-08-28 06:22:32 Anduckkk has joined
 408 2013-08-28 06:22:45 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 409 2013-08-28 06:25:40 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 410 2013-08-28 06:27:22 btcbtc has joined
 411 2013-08-28 06:28:05 ielo has joined
 412 2013-08-28 06:28:56 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
 413 2013-08-28 06:32:59 paracyst has quit ()
 414 2013-08-28 06:33:58 oleganza has joined
 415 2013-08-28 06:35:27 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 416 2013-08-28 06:36:00 awishformore has joined
 417 2013-08-28 06:37:59 Application has joined
 418 2013-08-28 06:40:03 Krellan_ has joined
 419 2013-08-28 06:53:58 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
 420 2013-08-28 07:04:03 <toffoo> so far so good with 0.8.4rc2 on my troublesome MacBookPro  … more tomorrow, goodnight!
 421 2013-08-28 07:04:52 <hydromet> toffoo: sorry I was away for a while, I didn't realize you are having problems with your MacBook Pro (I have one too, maybe I can help you)
 422 2013-08-28 07:05:49 <toffoo> hydromet what version of bitcoin-qt are you running on yours?
 423 2013-08-28 07:05:52 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 424 2013-08-28 07:07:27 toffoo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 425 2013-08-28 07:08:26 Gues_____ has joined
 426 2013-08-28 07:09:50 <hydromet> toffoo: Bitcoin version v0.8.2-313-gbb7d0fc-beta
 427 2013-08-28 07:11:22 PrimeStunna has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 428 2013-08-28 07:14:01 Gues_____ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
 429 2013-08-28 07:15:30 leakybuckit has joined
 430 2013-08-28 07:17:16 PrimeStunna has joined
 431 2013-08-28 07:19:28 <sipa> wow, we have 313 changes since 0.8.2 already
 432 2013-08-28 07:23:24 Anduck has joined
 433 2013-08-28 07:23:24 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
 434 2013-08-28 07:23:24 Anduck has joined
 435 2013-08-28 07:25:39 Anduckkk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 436 2013-08-28 07:33:01 reneg has joined
 437 2013-08-28 07:34:02 longcat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 438 2013-08-28 07:34:43 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 439 2013-08-28 07:38:04 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 440 2013-08-28 07:38:29 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 441 2013-08-28 07:41:23 Namworld has quit ()
 442 2013-08-28 07:41:53 longcat has joined
 443 2013-08-28 07:46:28 <Krellan> sipa: thanks for your comments on my ping patch.  I further refined it, getting rid of debug/printf bloat.  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2937
 444 2013-08-28 07:47:37 <sipa> you use Yoda conditions!
 445 2013-08-28 07:47:40 <hydromet> sipa: CodeShark: gavinandresen: thank you collectively for your help! I have successfully made and am now running Bitcoin-Qt on my MacBook
 446 2013-08-28 07:48:40 <hydromet> protocol buffers cpp was very key to this, as was the workaround Gavin suggested with regard to using the command line with qmake and make (instead of using Qt Creator)
 447 2013-08-28 07:49:01 <CodeShark> glad to know it's working for you, hydromet
 448 2013-08-28 07:49:22 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
 449 2013-08-28 07:51:22 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 450 2013-08-28 07:54:02 Thepok has joined
 451 2013-08-28 07:56:24 graingert has joined
 452 2013-08-28 07:56:36 <Krellan> yes, 0 == n, avoids chance of typo nasty bug 0 = n
 453 2013-08-28 07:56:48 graingert is now known as Guest31024
 454 2013-08-28 07:57:57 <sipa> yes, i had heard about that style and the reasoning for it, but never saw anyone actually use iy
 455 2013-08-28 07:58:28 <gmaxwell> = vs == bugs is something I've basically never run into.
 456 2013-08-28 07:58:49 <gmaxwell> it helps that modern compilers warn on a number of places where this might happen.
 457 2013-08-28 07:59:24 <CodeShark> I think C/C++ developers tend to be particularly aware of this type of issue and are generally pretty vigilant about it
 458 2013-08-28 07:59:40 <gmaxwell> Makes sense.
 459 2013-08-28 08:00:23 <CodeShark> it's somewhat unfortunate that a bunch of other programming languages had to inherit this
 460 2013-08-28 08:00:26 t7 has joined
 461 2013-08-28 08:01:40 <CodeShark> on the other hand, languages like pascal tried really hard to make it nearly impossible to make this mistake - and it didn't catch on as much
 462 2013-08-28 08:04:24 <CodeShark> for better or worse, C syntax still reigns supreme amongst imperative languages
 463 2013-08-28 08:08:25 agnostic98 has joined
 464 2013-08-28 08:08:41 Applicat_ has joined
 465 2013-08-28 08:08:50 <sipa> Krellan: what is nPingNonceQueued for?
 466 2013-08-28 08:08:54 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 467 2013-08-28 08:08:56 reneg_ has joined
 468 2013-08-28 08:08:57 <sipa> it seems unused
 469 2013-08-28 08:09:53 <sipa> ah, it's sort of a cached nonce
 470 2013-08-28 08:12:09 <sipa> Krellan: would it make sense to report max(lastpingtime, now-lastpingsent) in the getpeerinfo rpc?
 471 2013-08-28 08:12:42 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 472 2013-08-28 08:13:11 <sipa> so max(dPingTime,dPingWait)
 473 2013-08-28 08:13:47 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 474 2013-08-28 08:14:07 c0rw1n has joined
 475 2013-08-28 08:14:40 <sipa> what widely-deployed alt implementation is that, which doesn't reply with the right nonce?
 476 2013-08-28 08:15:34 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 477 2013-08-28 08:16:36 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 478 2013-08-28 08:17:45 Guest31024 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 479 2013-08-28 08:18:04 graingert_ has joined
 480 2013-08-28 08:18:05 graingert_ has quit (Changing host)
 481 2013-08-28 08:18:05 graingert_ has joined
 482 2013-08-28 08:18:15 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 483 2013-08-28 08:20:03 <Krellan> sipa: I'm trying to figure that out myself.
 484 2013-08-28 08:20:25 <Krellan> was hoping someone else would know.
 485 2013-08-28 08:20:38 fanquake has joined
 486 2013-08-28 08:20:48 <Krellan> As for syntax, I wish they would use := for assignment and == for comparison, that seems to be the best.
 487 2013-08-28 08:21:21 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 488 2013-08-28 08:21:44 <Krellan> sipa: nPingNonceQueued is the nonce that will be sent out next.  It's precomputed so that I only need to take 8 random bytes no matter how many nodes there are.
 489 2013-08-28 08:21:54 <Krellan> Avoid draining the random entropy that way.
 490 2013-08-28 08:22:16 <sipa> you could just use the non-crypto RNG
 491 2013-08-28 08:22:20 <Krellan> sipa: Funny you mention that, I actually had it coded up just like that, in a draft.
 492 2013-08-28 08:23:45 wiretapped has joined
 493 2013-08-28 08:23:47 <Krellan> reporting max(pingtime,pingwait) = caller can't tell if there is still a ping outstanding or not.
 494 2013-08-28 08:24:30 reneg has joined
 495 2013-08-28 08:25:03 <Krellan> plus, starting a new ping would suddenly make the ping times go down, if pingwait had become larger than pingtime.
 496 2013-08-28 08:27:13 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 497 2013-08-28 08:28:05 <CodeShark> going over this list of languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages_by_category#Imperative_languages), it seems from that list only algol, pascal/object pascal, ada, and modula adopted the := assignment operator. BASIC, C, C++, COBOL, FORTRAN, Java, Lua, MATLAB, Perl, PHP, Python, Ruby, and Rust all use =
 498 2013-08-28 08:28:09 Goonie_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 499 2013-08-28 08:29:01 <CodeShark> Mathematica uses both. := is delayed evaluation
 500 2013-08-28 08:29:02 Anduck has joined
 501 2013-08-28 08:29:24 <CodeShark> anyhow, this isn't the comparative language channel :p
 502 2013-08-28 08:30:30 <warren> CodeShark: hi, regarding ""RPC method for explicitly banning nodes or removing a ban.", will you have an opportunity to fix what sipa asked for?
 503 2013-08-28 08:30:40 <warren> CodeShark: I can ask one of our devs to help if you're busy.
 504 2013-08-28 08:30:49 <CodeShark> let me take a look
 505 2013-08-28 08:31:08 hydromet has left ()
 506 2013-08-28 08:31:51 <sipa> Krellan: i think over time it may be useful to do more pings, like every few minutes or even less
 507 2013-08-28 08:31:59 <Krellan> agreed
 508 2013-08-28 08:32:05 <sipa> Krellan: and then reporting an average ping time and a last ping time
 509 2013-08-28 08:32:34 <sipa> the last ping time could take an ongoing one into account
 510 2013-08-28 08:32:39 <sipa> while the average wouldn't
 511 2013-08-28 08:32:59 <sipa> so i wonder if we can do something for now to remain rpc-conpatible with that
 512 2013-08-28 08:33:10 <Krellan> an interesting idea
 513 2013-08-28 08:33:27 <sipa> (i'm not suggesting you do all that now)
 514 2013-08-28 08:34:11 <Krellan> with "pingwait" i'm already dangerously close to overengineering it as it is.
 515 2013-08-28 08:34:16 <sipa> hehe
 516 2013-08-28 08:34:40 <sipa> no worries, i'm not afraid of overengineering
 517 2013-08-28 08:34:47 <sipa> (ever saw addrman.h?)
 518 2013-08-28 08:34:51 <Krellan> interesting how we both had thought of the max(pingtime,pingwait) idea, i had that running for a while, it gave me confusing results.
 519 2013-08-28 08:35:43 <Krellan> peeked at addrman.h, makes sense to me
 520 2013-08-28 08:36:37 <Krellan> I thought about keeping all outstanding nonces in a map and then looking them up whenever a pong came in.  That would solve the problem of overlapping nonces more cleanly.
 521 2013-08-28 08:36:49 <sipa> meh :)
 522 2013-08-28 08:37:19 <Krellan> and i'm still intrigued about why a client woudl send a pong of zero.  maybe it's only sending a 32-bit number (there was a similar bug in ping a while ago)?
 523 2013-08-28 08:37:41 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 524 2013-08-28 08:37:43 <sipa> yes, but that was discovered shortly after merging
 525 2013-08-28 08:37:57 <sipa> i don't think there was actually a release with that problem
 526 2013-08-28 08:38:10 Anduckkk has joined
 527 2013-08-28 08:38:10 Anduckkk has quit (Changing host)
 528 2013-08-28 08:38:10 Anduckkk has joined
 529 2013-08-28 08:38:49 Subo1977 has joined
 530 2013-08-28 08:38:51 <sipa> you can print pbode->strSubVer or what it's called
 531 2013-08-28 08:39:05 <sipa> should tell you what codebase is sending it
 532 2013-08-28 08:40:51 MobiusL has joined
 533 2013-08-28 08:40:58 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 534 2013-08-28 08:41:38 <Krellan> I just added that, actually
 535 2013-08-28 08:41:47 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 536 2013-08-28 08:41:56 <Krellan> printf("This jerk just sent me a pong nonce of zero: %s\n", pfrom->strSubVer.c_str());
 537 2013-08-28 08:42:22 <Krellan> :)
 538 2013-08-28 08:42:57 <gmaxwell> I'd like to solicit some shed-painting of this approach: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/encourage_sweeping.patch
 539 2013-08-28 08:43:34 <gmaxwell> (one issue with the patch as it is now is that it lowers both the wallet behavior and the relay behavior at the same time, so it might result in some stuck txn if not deployed with rapid uptake... but that could be fixed)
 540 2013-08-28 08:43:43 <Krellan> To my surprise it's Satoshi:0.8.99 and it's fairly common.  7 of my 18 nodes (I just restarted bitcoind) do it.
 541 2013-08-28 08:44:57 <warren> ok great, I have my team helping to review jgarzik's nowallet patch
 542 2013-08-28 08:45:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: So I changed my thinking from an earlier idea for encouraging sweeping to one that strictly makes the additional (cheap) inputs free. The reason for this is that I think if there is any more incentive than that it will encourage people to make _extra_ txouts in order to gobble up their credit later.
 543 2013-08-28 08:45:53 <Krellan> You misspelled "disincentivizing" ):
 544 2013-08-28 08:46:18 <gmaxwell> e.g. under my prior patch if you had— say 10 inputs such that your 'size' would have been negative, it would be in your interest to add extra outputs 'for free' to balance that out which you could redeem later.
 545 2013-08-28 08:47:22 <sipa> Krellan: wut? :o
 546 2013-08-28 08:47:23 <gmaxwell> and the reason for the maximum of 109 bytes of credit for the signature here is so that it doesn't make weird data-storage transactions cheaper.
 547 2013-08-28 08:49:06 <sipa> Krellan: so some patch in git head broke ping responses?
 548 2013-08-28 08:49:42 <gmaxwell> Krellan: what?! ... or there is some busted node type claiming to be 0.8.99. :(
 549 2013-08-28 08:50:36 <Krellan> It's a 64-bit number (8 bytes).
 550 2013-08-28 08:50:46 <sipa> yes
 551 2013-08-28 08:51:03 <sipa> but your 0.8.99 peers answer with 0?
 552 2013-08-28 08:51:19 Anduckkk is now known as Anduck
 553 2013-08-28 08:51:21 <Krellan> all 00's.  Wireshark helpful.
 554 2013-08-28 08:51:53 <Krellan> although "pong" is unknown command, it still picks apart the command packet.  Payload checksum 7ef0ca62 is correct.
 555 2013-08-28 08:51:56 _dr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 556 2013-08-28 08:52:10 ielo has joined
 557 2013-08-28 08:52:52 <gmaxwell> I don't see how.. if your peers ping you do you also respond stupidly?
 558 2013-08-28 08:53:26 <Krellan> nope, ping nonce gets echoed in pong nonce (that is unchanged).
 559 2013-08-28 08:53:35 <sipa> weird weird
 560 2013-08-28 08:53:38 <Krellan> very.
 561 2013-08-28 08:53:45 <Krellan> it's not just one node, it's widespread.
 562 2013-08-28 08:54:01 <gmaxwell> sounds like an attack, to be honest.
 563 2013-08-28 08:54:17 <gmaxwell> not the pings themselves, but someone running software which isn't 0.8.99 claiming to be 0.8.99
 564 2013-08-28 08:54:25 <sipa> we need to figure that out before adding code that depends on thay broken behaviour...
 565 2013-08-28 08:54:41 <Krellan> yes, that scuttles my attempt to use version to distinguish who's sending the zero pong nonces.
 566 2013-08-28 08:55:02 viperhr has joined
 567 2013-08-28 08:55:24 <sipa> i'll add code to my node to track that as well
 568 2013-08-28 08:55:43 <Krellan> I was running code earlier that just dropped the pong if nonce was zero.  Got discouraged by a good chunk of my peers having unmeasurable ping times then.
 569 2013-08-28 08:55:55 <Krellan> sipa: thanks.
 570 2013-08-28 08:56:33 <sipa> discouraged as in human lack of motivation... not block discouragement i hope
 571 2013-08-28 08:56:50 <Krellan> :)
 572 2013-08-28 08:57:26 <sipa> i take that as a yes
 573 2013-08-28 08:57:58 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 574 2013-08-28 08:58:04 <Krellan> I still wonder where the broken behavior (pong nonce all 00's) comes from.  whatever it is, it's widely deployed.  I looked through history briefly and could only find a few changes to ping over time and none to pong.
 575 2013-08-28 08:58:19 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 576 2013-08-28 08:58:38 reneg has joined
 577 2013-08-28 08:58:55 btcbtc has joined
 578 2013-08-28 09:00:32 stephantua has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
 579 2013-08-28 09:02:36 <CodeShark> do you have any specific IP addresses of hosts exhibiting this behavior?
 580 2013-08-28 09:02:43 psychophoniac has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 581 2013-08-28 09:02:47 <Krellan> sipa: Curious to know what you find, if you also see it happening in your client: send good ping out, get ping nonce zero back.
 582 2013-08-28 09:03:01 <Krellan> hmm let me pull some addresses
 583 2013-08-28 09:03:03 agnostic98 has joined
 584 2013-08-28 09:05:26 <CodeShark> hmm, the protocol specification document https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#ping mentions a nonce in the ping message but doesn't talk about the ping message format other than suggesting there's a nonce field somewhere
 585 2013-08-28 09:05:59 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 586 2013-08-28 09:06:21 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: what crazy idea made you think that page was useful?
 587 2013-08-28 09:06:35 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: it was THE page I used to implement a bitcoin node
 588 2013-08-28 09:06:44 <CodeShark> it was the MOST useful page EVER that I found on bitcoin
 589 2013-08-28 09:06:45 <CodeShark> EVER
 590 2013-08-28 09:06:45 <gmaxwell> It's been full of lies historically. Your punishment for reading it is to fix them as you find them.
 591 2013-08-28 09:07:26 <gmaxwell> oh sorry, its the rules page thats full of lies.
 592 2013-08-28 09:07:53 <gmaxwell> that one might be okay as far as I know.
 593 2013-08-28 09:08:10 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 594 2013-08-28 09:08:19 <CodeShark> it's had a few minor warts here and there but has been by far the best reference on the bitcoin protocol I've found
 595 2013-08-28 09:09:50 <CodeShark> whenever any developer asks me where to look for information about bitcoin I point them to this and satoshi's paper first
 596 2013-08-28 09:10:32 Eiii has quit ()
 597 2013-08-28 09:11:11 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I was confusing it with the rules page, which is basically stuffed full of omitted rules.
 598 2013-08-28 09:11:21 <CodeShark> anyhow, what's the message format for a ping message? a header + a 64 bit nonce?
 599 2013-08-28 09:11:36 <CodeShark> I'll add it to the document
 600 2013-08-28 09:11:51 <Krellan> CodeShark: 91.121.58.230:60406 5.9.203.20:44514 5.9.30.207:52886 144.76.70.73:19492 46.4.64.21:21221 5.9.245.121:18615 = nodes that do that
 601 2013-08-28 09:11:58 <Krellan> cool
 602 2013-08-28 09:11:59 <CodeShark> Krellan: thanks
 603 2013-08-28 09:12:08 <Krellan> ping has 8-byte payload (nonce)
 604 2013-08-28 09:12:11 <gmaxwell> Krellan: interesting, they are all nodes connecting to you?
 605 2013-08-28 09:12:15 <Krellan> pong has 8-byte payload (nonce)
 606 2013-08-28 09:12:16 <Krellan> Yes.
 607 2013-08-28 09:12:37 <Krellan> and I already throw out unsolicited pongs so it's not that.
 608 2013-08-28 09:12:55 <Krellan> ping *had* buggy 4-byte payload of all zeroes once.
 609 2013-08-28 09:13:09 <gmaxwell> I notice that three are in the same russian data center.
 610 2013-08-28 09:13:23 <Krellan> Da.
 611 2013-08-28 09:13:58 <gmaxwell> and all of them but the first one are the same hosting company.
 612 2013-08-28 09:14:08 <Krellan> who maintains the Wireshark dissector for bitcoin? be good to fix that as well same time, to decode pong.
 613 2013-08-28 09:14:38 <gmaxwell> Krellan: sounds like you do.
 614 2013-08-28 09:15:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
 615 2013-08-28 09:16:22 dparrish has joined
 616 2013-08-28 09:17:43 <CodeShark> ok, document updated
 617 2013-08-28 09:22:49 BTCOxygen has joined
 618 2013-08-28 09:24:26 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: agreed on the rules page - the validation pseudo-flowcharts in particular
 619 2013-08-28 09:26:17 <Krellan> hehe
 620 2013-08-28 09:26:25 <Krellan> will be another fun project
 621 2013-08-28 09:26:38 <Krellan> figure out the guts of wireshark
 622 2013-08-28 09:29:35 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I think the rules document should be less bitcoind-centric (i.e. "Add to wallet if mine") and instead focus on what constitutes a valid block and what constitutes a valid transaction from a purely network rules perspective (ignoring implementation specific rules or optimizations)
 623 2013-08-28 09:30:30 <CodeShark> a separate document could mention implementation-specific rules or optimizations
 624 2013-08-28 09:31:12 <Krellan> Nite all, I'll let bitcoind run more overnight and see if it finds any other versions that send back pong nonce of all 00's.
 625 2013-08-28 09:31:14 <CodeShark> concepts like transaction pools and wallets are entirely separate from the p2p protocol rules themselves
 626 2013-08-28 09:31:38 <CodeShark> nite, Krellan
 627 2013-08-28 09:32:14 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I think the rules document is actually not a documentation of bitcoind' but actually of genjix's node code, and thats partially why its been wrong historically.
 628 2013-08-28 09:32:21 Odyessus has joined
 629 2013-08-28 09:32:26 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 630 2013-08-28 09:33:00 <Krellan> nite nite, i'll dream of finding a block
 631 2013-08-28 09:35:12 <gmaxwell> Find one for me too!
 632 2013-08-28 09:36:01 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: hmm, more the reason to draw this distinction :)
 633 2013-08-28 09:36:52 <CodeShark> rather than an algorithmic pseudocode definition, perhaps it would be better to present a more mathematical definition
 634 2013-08-28 09:37:50 redeeman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 635 2013-08-28 09:37:51 <CodeShark> and instead just use algorithmic pseudocode as a possible example, but not as the official "spec"
 636 2013-08-28 09:38:14 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I had an idea before to go through the code and instrument every protocol rule with macros that in the normal case complied exactly to the current code, but could also be used to assign IDs and enumerate all the rules and their conditional relationships.
 637 2013-08-28 09:38:44 <gmaxwell> You could then clean up that output and get a spec, and also be able to easily relate the spec to the code.
 638 2013-08-28 09:39:16 <gmaxwell> You could then spot check alternative implementations by simply grepping for all the IDs, assuming they noted in the code where each rule was implemented.
 639 2013-08-28 09:39:32 <gmaxwell> And you could test your tests by some instrumention to break indivigual rules.
 640 2013-08-28 09:39:45 <gmaxwell> e.g. a GTLT becomes at GT... do your tests fail?
 641 2013-08-28 09:39:47 redeeman has joined
 642 2013-08-28 09:40:02 <gmaxwell> but it's a lot of work and it would add a lot of noise to the codebase.
 643 2013-08-28 09:41:13 <gmaxwell> and might just be better done as part of an effort to extract all the rules into a standalone.c file sutiable for implementation in a cryptographic proof system.
 644 2013-08-28 09:41:18 edwincheese has joined
 645 2013-08-28 09:42:03 <CodeShark> yeah, it sounds a bit complicated - also, there should be different categories for the rules. for instance, proof-of-work block header validation belongs in a more fundamental category than, say, "nonstandard transactions" or fees
 646 2013-08-28 09:42:19 <gmaxwell> oh " "nonstandard transactions" or fees" are not protocol rules.
 647 2013-08-28 09:42:24 edwincheese has quit (Client Quit)
 648 2013-08-28 09:42:25 <gmaxwell> They're just implementation behaviors.
 649 2013-08-28 09:42:29 <CodeShark> right
 650 2013-08-28 09:42:38 <gmaxwell> By protocol rules I mean the stuff that all full nodes must implement the same or doomsday happens. :P
 651 2013-08-28 09:43:04 <CodeShark> well, block header proof-of-work validation also belongs in a more fundamental category than, say, MAX_BLOCK_SIZE
 652 2013-08-28 09:43:11 <gmaxwell> No it doesn't.
 653 2013-08-28 09:43:19 <CodeShark> the latter is subject to change
 654 2013-08-28 09:43:31 <gmaxwell> It's a hardforking rule that all nodes must agree on exactly.
 655 2013-08-28 09:43:46 <CodeShark> but it's still subject to change
 656 2013-08-28 09:43:57 <CodeShark> much moreso than pow validation rules
 657 2013-08-28 09:44:35 <gmaxwell> I don't think it is. I mean, sure, anything is subject to change if there is a necessity to do so. The hardforking rules are only mostly a suicide pact.
 658 2013-08-28 09:44:55 <gmaxwell> But changing them has exactly the same technical consequences and needs the same deployment strategy.
 659 2013-08-28 09:46:05 <CodeShark> also, headers-only and headers-first implementations might not even check MAX_BLOCK_SIZE upon initial sync
 660 2013-08-28 09:46:42 <gmaxwell> sure, they also don't check that scriptpubkeys are under 10kbytes...
 661 2013-08-28 09:47:18 <gmaxwell> or ecdsa signatures on transactions, or maximum checksig operations, or the that the coinbase isn't inflating the currency supply or...
 662 2013-08-28 09:47:23 <CodeShark> they could check that selectively for transactions they care about - point is, rules for accepting transactions might be different from rules for full validation and relay
 663 2013-08-28 09:47:30 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 664 2013-08-28 09:47:31 stephantual has joined
 665 2013-08-28 09:47:48 <CodeShark> and pow validation seems like the minimal check that any node should be making
 666 2013-08-28 09:48:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: sure, the rules have multiple entry points: the things you can validate with just a header, the things you can validate with just a utxo set and a mempool, and then the block validation which is the sum of these and some extra stuff.
 667 2013-08-28 09:48:31 <CodeShark> exactly
 668 2013-08-28 09:48:55 <gmaxwell> (actually two kinds of header checks, stateless ones and stateful ones)
 669 2013-08-28 09:49:13 <CodeShark> I'm not saying that these other things aren't also important - perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "fundamental"
 670 2013-08-28 09:49:35 ielo has joined
 671 2013-08-28 09:49:56 <CodeShark> from a practical standpoint, I think what you just said is the key - different rules require different contexts for validation and not all nodes necessarily will be performing all the checks all the time
 672 2013-08-28 09:50:57 _ingsoc has joined
 673 2013-08-28 09:51:35 <gmaxwell> Mostly I only give a shit about full nodes. If your SPV node or whatever implements a test wrong ... I cry for it— but it won't bugger the global consensus.  Obviously it's prudent to set things up to be easily reuable, and even a full node wants to do some tests early for anti-dos reasons... but I think the concerns of non-network nodes are an order of magnitude less.
 674 2013-08-28 09:52:11 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: even for a full node there are some interesting possibilities - like headers-first sync and gradual transitioning to full node
 675 2013-08-28 09:53:43 jtimon has joined
 676 2013-08-28 09:54:03 <CodeShark> then there are also ideas like what you brought up yesterday as far as relaying prior to full validation to reduce latency (or other such potential optimizations)
 677 2013-08-28 09:54:28 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 678 2013-08-28 09:54:55 ppcko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 679 2013-08-28 09:55:08 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: luke implemented it last year, it didn't help at the time, because of the blocking nature of bitcoin's networking. perhaps in the future.
 680 2013-08-28 09:55:46 lk828128 has joined
 681 2013-08-28 09:55:56 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I was just using it as an example - there could be other possibilities where not applying all the rules up front makes the most sense even for a full node
 682 2013-08-28 09:56:05 Odyessus has joined
 683 2013-08-28 09:56:07 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: in any case, those entry points are simple enough.  I'm actually becoming hopefully that we can eliminate the need to ever have the gradual transition model.
 684 2013-08-28 09:56:43 <CodeShark> sure, we just need a way to hash the utxo state into block headers :)
 685 2013-08-28 09:56:48 <gmaxwell> no.
 686 2013-08-28 09:56:52 <gmaxwell> gah wtf.
 687 2013-08-28 09:57:05 <gmaxwell> That would be a severe reduction in the security model to just trust that.
 688 2013-08-28 09:57:16 agnostic98 has joined
 689 2013-08-28 09:57:29 <gmaxwell> using SCIP to recieve proof-of-validation of a utxo, however, wouldn't be.
 690 2013-08-28 09:57:59 <CodeShark> ok, then that :)
 691 2013-08-28 09:58:05 <gmaxwell> :P
 692 2013-08-28 09:58:58 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 693 2013-08-28 09:59:49 <gmaxwell> in any case, doing that would imply some structural changes where you reorganize the code so that you have a validation part (well really, three of them), and a part that prepares inputs for them and gives them their input and they do no IO and return a pass/fail.
 694 2013-08-28 10:00:03 <CodeShark> in practice, we really only need a few full validation nodes that are well-connected that will raise a stink if anyone starts accepting blocks/txs that break the rules
 695 2013-08-28 10:00:06 <gmaxwell> and the idea is that everything outside of them is 'untrusted' and they enforce all the rules.
 696 2013-08-28 10:00:37 <CodeShark> a few full validation nodes that are well-connected and not in collusion with each other
 697 2013-08-28 10:00:55 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, that last part is lol impossibro
 698 2013-08-28 10:01:15 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I don't agree. Once the consensus has gone the wrong way it cannot be fixed without permitting the risk of double spends. Besides thats just really offensive to the security model in bitcoin.
 699 2013-08-28 10:01:17 ppcko has joined
 700 2013-08-28 10:01:35 normanrichards has joined
 701 2013-08-28 10:01:36 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 702 2013-08-28 10:01:44 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, you have offended the security model
 703 2013-08-28 10:01:54 <CodeShark> once consensus has gone the wrong way the network has broken
 704 2013-08-28 10:01:55 <gmaxwell> You cannot tell when parties are in collusion when they are anonymous and self selecting. And you cannot achieve satoshi's vision of correcting the problem with so much trust in money when you go making magical trusted nodes.
 705 2013-08-28 10:01:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, puzzling choice of words but i like it
 706 2013-08-28 10:02:38 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: and there were double spends, :( and next time people will be even more prepared to exploit a divergence.
 707 2013-08-28 10:02:46 <CodeShark> anyone can still run a full node in principle - and most entities dealing in large quantities of money will most likely want to run a few of their own
 708 2013-08-28 10:02:47 reneg has joined
 709 2013-08-28 10:03:23 <CodeShark> but for most users it's simply not practical to expect them all to be running full validation nodes - at least not without some significant breakthroughs in cryptography, hardware, and protocol improvements
 710 2013-08-28 10:03:23 <gmaxwell> moreover, actually applying the rules is not fundimentally expensive.
 711 2013-08-28 10:03:57 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I think you've mistaken bitcoin for visa my friend.
 712 2013-08-28 10:04:17 <CodeShark> it's already too expensive to validate the entire block chain for MOST typical users
 713 2013-08-28 10:04:30 <gmaxwell> Moreover, commercial operators would be the last parties you'd expect to be running full nodes. The protection they care about is not one that detecting errors other people do not detect can provide.
 714 2013-08-28 10:04:43 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 715 2013-08-28 10:04:48 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: What the heck are you talking about?
 716 2013-08-28 10:04:59 <CodeShark> if an error goes undetected, the network has broken and all coins are at risk of becoming worthless
 717 2013-08-28 10:05:12 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, sounds like a great problem for someone else to solve.
 718 2013-08-28 10:05:25 ppcko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 719 2013-08-28 10:05:27 <CodeShark> point is anyone who has sufficient stake in the network'
 720 2013-08-28 10:05:37 <CodeShark> has incentive to run a full validation node
 721 2013-08-28 10:05:52 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Yes, like all the users, who are the ones who actually care about preventing inflation— businesses demonstrably do not.
 722 2013-08-28 10:05:54 <CodeShark> most casual consumers do not
 723 2013-08-28 10:06:13 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: but lets wind back a bit here, you made a claim that I think is nuts "< CodeShark> it's already too expensive to validate the entire block chain for MOST typical users"
 724 2013-08-28 10:06:19 <gmaxwell> What are you talking about there?
 725 2013-08-28 10:06:25 ppcko has joined
 726 2013-08-28 10:06:36 <CodeShark> initial sync time on handheld devices is too long for most people to sit through
 727 2013-08-28 10:06:48 <CodeShark> and requires a significant amount of storage
 728 2013-08-28 10:07:00 <CodeShark> hard disks are cheap but flash media is still relatively expensive
 729 2013-08-28 10:07:05 <gmaxwell> It currently requires about 300 mbytes of storage to run a full validation node.
 730 2013-08-28 10:07:13 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 731 2013-08-28 10:07:21 <gmaxwell> And you can, if you want, move the sync into the background.
 732 2013-08-28 10:07:42 <CodeShark> the only people currently doing that are technogeeks
 733 2013-08-28 10:08:25 <gmaxwell> (and with a SCIP proof for a faithful utxo set, the sync could be eliminated entirely, but thats probably a couple years out)
 734 2013-08-28 10:08:36 <CodeShark> and I expect that to remain the case for the time being barring any significant breakthroughs in cryptography and/or hardware
 735 2013-08-28 10:09:10 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Please stop. You are lowering my opinion of you substantially. You do not have to be right all the time, and arguing a moronic point just makes you look like a moron.
 736 2013-08-28 10:09:26 <gmaxwell> It doesn't take a "breakthroughs in cryptography and/or hardware" to move a task into the background.
 737 2013-08-28 10:09:44 <gmaxwell> It doesn't take a "breakthroughs in cryptography and/or hardware" to have the process simply not save old blocks to disk.
 738 2013-08-28 10:09:58 saulimus has joined
 739 2013-08-28 10:10:02 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: from a purely theoretical/technical standpoint I agree with you - from a real-world deployment standpoint, there are some significant hurdles
 740 2013-08-28 10:10:47 Anduck has joined
 741 2013-08-28 10:10:55 <gmaxwell> the existing node software works fine if you just type ~/.bitcoin/blocks/*000??.dat ... (until a peer tries to pull the old chain from you, since we don't yet have service bits to indicate that you don't have the blocks)
 742 2013-08-28 10:11:50 <CodeShark> again you're talking about something which only a small percentage of the actual population even understands
 743 2013-08-28 10:11:54 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Your commentary was on "too expensive" not "unfashionable"  ... not that I'm advocating FVNs on phones (bandwidth is the concern), but it's not fundimentally expensive, and on a desktop its trivial.
 744 2013-08-28 10:12:13 <CodeShark> I'm talking about practical real-world deployment and mass adoption
 745 2013-08-28 10:12:20 <CodeShark> not just a hobby project of a few technogeeks
 746 2013-08-28 10:12:27 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: what does that have to do with anything? I'm not expecting the actual population to ever know or care about it.
 747 2013-08-28 10:13:07 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: don't say "too expensive" when you really mean "because someone hasn't yet written the 10 line patch to bitcoind to make it easier for storage limited devices"
 748 2013-08-28 10:14:32 Anduckkk has joined
 749 2013-08-28 10:14:32 Anduckkk has quit (Changing host)
 750 2013-08-28 10:14:32 Anduckkk has joined
 751 2013-08-28 10:14:41 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, and I'm talking about preserving something which is pratically worth having.  If you demove the users running verifiying nodes in favor of a few large trusted validators— for want of people to write 10 line patches!—  then you invalidate Satoshi's whole purpose for bulding bitcoin:
 752 2013-08-28 10:14:46 <gmaxwell> "
 753 2013-08-28 10:14:49 <gmaxwell> The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let ...
 754 2013-08-28 10:14:55 <gmaxwell> ... identity thieves drain our accounts."
 755 2013-08-28 10:15:12 <gmaxwell> Because we're back to trusting some big 'banks' but they're just with another name, and hyper subject to regulation by whatever random misguided power wants to dork with them.
 756 2013-08-28 10:15:15 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 757 2013-08-28 10:15:42 <CodeShark> the big bank analogy only really holds if there's a huge barrier to entry for anyone who wants to perform full validation
 758 2013-08-28 10:16:01 <CodeShark> and the barrier to entry is NOT huge - there can still be a significant number of people, organizations, and businesses running such nodes
 759 2013-08-28 10:16:03 <gmaxwell> And if it were fundimentally necessary, if it couldn't be made to work for people at all, even with thousands of lines of code— I might agree with you. But to risk the whole purpose of the system to grow deployment at the expense of writing a modest amount of code? I don't buy it.
 760 2013-08-28 10:16:41 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 761 2013-08-28 10:16:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you yourself are arguing that it was already prohibitively costly.   There is no _profit_ you get from doing it, already our full nodes dwindle.  If it isn't a default expirence what makes you think people will do it?
 762 2013-08-28 10:17:11 <CodeShark> it's mostly a matter of risk management for any sufficiently invested party
 763 2013-08-28 10:17:14 <CodeShark> not profit
 764 2013-08-28 10:17:22 <gmaxwell> I say they'll do it because it'll be made as cheap as possible, and made so you can contribute at multiple levels.
 765 2013-08-28 10:17:36 <CodeShark> point is it isn't necessary for every last smartphone and tablet user to be running a full validation node in order for bitcoin to function
 766 2013-08-28 10:17:38 <gmaxwell> But if few enough people do it it's _risky_ to do so (see for example coinbase keep forking themselves with their implementation)
 767 2013-08-28 10:18:04 random_cat has joined
 768 2013-08-28 10:18:10 <gmaxwell> The thing a business wants is not bitcoin,  they want bitcoin-bank to give them cryptographically signed blocks and an insurance policy that no txn in a signed block will be reversed no matter what.
 769 2013-08-28 10:18:48 <CodeShark> if a block chain is accepted that grossly breaks the rules, the entire network's credibility flies out the window
 770 2013-08-28 10:18:53 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: and sure, I'm not proposing that smartphones and tablets do— but they certantly could. And they also could do partial validation, and fraud proof generation and processing, and that probably makes a lot of sense.
 771 2013-08-28 10:19:13 reneg has joined
 772 2013-08-28 10:19:49 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: hah. No. I don't agree. Not once it's widely used. The USD's credibility didn't go out the window when the government removed metallic backing or made any of other countless economic changes that broke the prior rules.
 773 2013-08-28 10:20:00 <CodeShark> it is certainly in my interest to run a full validation node (in fact, I run several) just because I want to know about any potential fundamental problems with the network - I don't run full validation nodes on all my devices and probably never will
 774 2013-08-28 10:20:03 macboz has joined
 775 2013-08-28 10:20:17 <gmaxwell> it would remove the _point_ of bitcoin— making it just a really inefficient way to accomplish a fiat payment system— but it wouldn't stop people from using it.
 776 2013-08-28 10:20:30 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 777 2013-08-28 10:21:05 <gmaxwell> and I've repeadily said that I'm not proposing that every device do it (partial validation and fraud proofs, perhaps is another matter)
 778 2013-08-28 10:21:22 <CodeShark> so then where was it that we were disagreeing?
 779 2013-08-28 10:21:34 <CodeShark> perhaps it was on the connotation of "few"
 780 2013-08-28 10:21:49 <CodeShark> by "few" I didn't mean an oligopoly of full validators
 781 2013-08-28 10:22:17 <CodeShark> I meant a significant number but still a minority of the total number of devices that interface the bitcoin network
 782 2013-08-28 10:22:33 <gmaxwell> I don't follow how any model where there isn't a very large number doesn't rapidly reduce to an oligopoly of full validators. If it doesn't make sense for you to do it, why does it make sense for anyone else?
 783 2013-08-28 10:22:43 <gmaxwell> okay. That could still agree with me.
 784 2013-08-28 10:22:58 <CodeShark> it DOES make sense for me to run full nodes - I already said I run several
 785 2013-08-28 10:23:21 <CodeShark> but none on handheld devices
 786 2013-08-28 10:23:23 <gmaxwell> I think I believed you were saying that few or no individuals would, and that you also described it as very expensive, which it's not.
 787 2013-08-28 10:24:02 <CodeShark> running a full node on a dedicated server is cheap - running it on a tablet is considerably more expensive
 788 2013-08-28 10:24:18 <gmaxwell> and on a handheld device you can run a partial verifying node with ~no extra cost, once we make a few softforking protocol changes.  (A partial verifying node only checks a random subset of a block: but it can catch any rule violation that happens in that random subset)
 789 2013-08-28 10:24:54 <gmaxwell> (and if you couple partial verifying nodes with fraud proofs there don't really need to be any full verifying nodes, really— though it would make sense to still have some)
 790 2013-08-28 10:25:16 <Scrat> gmaxwell: but it will only work while the app is opened
 791 2013-08-28 10:25:25 <Scrat> due to battery constraints
 792 2013-08-28 10:25:28 <gmaxwell> Scrat: sure. Fortunately there is more than one user.
 793 2013-08-28 10:25:58 <gmaxwell> Scrat: for a handheld device you'd actually make use of the fact that the bloom filters select too much data, to perform your random selection for you.
 794 2013-08-28 10:27:21 <gmaxwell> Scrat: the idea is that each device checks a small fraction of the block, — while its online— and if  it finds something wrong it broadcasts a fraud proof that tells everyone else where to go look and find the badness.
 795 2013-08-28 10:27:44 <CodeShark> note: running it on a dedicated server is only cheap for me because I already have other uses for dedicated servers
 796 2013-08-28 10:28:04 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, cookie crisps
 797 2013-08-28 10:28:04 <CodeShark> so I already have the IT investments
 798 2013-08-28 10:28:15 <gmaxwell> So long as there are many devices doing this, the probablity of getting away with breaking the rules is negligible.
 799 2013-08-28 10:29:17 <CodeShark> for most people, running a full node is probably far more expensive than it is for me - I don't expect most of them to do so. I certainly believe there should be at least sufficient devices doing full validation so that it is extremely difficult to break the rules and get away with it.
 800 2013-08-28 10:29:22 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, that why I think things like PVN is important, I really don't think we can trust people to run full nodes in any great quantity if its too expensive.  And once few enough people to, it will start becoming safer to just use the biggest ones since they're least likely to lose the consensus, right or wrong.
 801 2013-08-28 10:29:35 stephantual has quit (Quit: Bye!)
 802 2013-08-28 10:30:24 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 803 2013-08-28 10:30:34 <gmaxwell> (we already see this to some extent: electrum is very likely _pratically_ safer than multibit, because electrum servers are run by known-through-you-can-choke, while multibit just connects to a couple public nodes and will believe all kinds of BS)
 804 2013-08-28 10:30:51 <gmaxwell> s/through/throat/
 805 2013-08-28 10:31:02 macboz has joined
 806 2013-08-28 10:31:10 <CodeShark> which brings up another important point - where is the actual weakest link in trust?
 807 2013-08-28 10:31:29 danda has joined
 808 2013-08-28 10:31:39 <gmaxwell> well trust against what?  preventing inflation long term is not the same threat as .. say, stealing your coins.
 809 2013-08-28 10:32:49 <gmaxwell> For the latter we'd probably all be best off -connect= a node run by google, since their capacity to pay out damages due to misconduct is basically unbounded. :P .. and if we all connect a single node we could all be immune to double spends. :P
 810 2013-08-28 10:33:09 <gmaxwell> But if we want to prevent censorship or inflation, thats not at all a good model.
 811 2013-08-28 10:33:19 <CodeShark> fiat currencies aren't going anywhere anytime soon - bitcoin will likely be used mainly for speculation and money transmission and not so much for pricing in the foreseeable future
 812 2013-08-28 10:33:49 PrimeStunna has quit (Quit: PrimeStunna)
 813 2013-08-28 10:34:04 <gmaxwell> Indeed, fiat currencies aren't going anywhere: which is why I think it's important to work to preserve bitcoin's unique value... it's a piss poor replacement for VISA+USD technically, politically, otoh....
 814 2013-08-28 10:34:45 danda__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 815 2013-08-28 10:35:22 psychophoniac has joined
 816 2013-08-28 10:35:28 <gmaxwell> omg huge fee in mempool
 817 2013-08-28 10:35:29 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 818 2013-08-28 10:35:33 <gmaxwell> please p2pool find this block!
 819 2013-08-28 10:35:53 <gmaxwell> Current block value: 225.0891 BTC Expected time to block: 12.6 hours
 820 2013-08-28 10:36:15 <gmaxwell> ... bet some crap pool that doesn't pay fees to miners gets it. :-/
 821 2013-08-28 10:36:16 <CodeShark> 12.6 hours?
 822 2013-08-28 10:36:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, for p2pool.
 823 2013-08-28 10:36:31 <CodeShark> oh, just p2pool
 824 2013-08-28 10:40:50 joepie92 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 825 2013-08-28 10:42:54 joepie92 has joined
 826 2013-08-28 10:43:24 <CodeShark> anyhow, calling it a night - later, gmaxwell
 827 2013-08-28 10:43:24 <Scrat> isnt it good if a pool finds it? then the poor guy fucking around with raw transactions might get his btc back :p
 828 2013-08-28 10:46:28 <gmaxwell> boo.
 829 2013-08-28 10:46:41 <Graet> asicminer
 830 2013-08-28 10:46:45 <gmaxwell> Scrat: only if that actually happens.
 831 2013-08-28 10:46:57 <gmaxwell> most of the time it hasn't.
 832 2013-08-28 10:47:17 <gmaxwell> asicminer got it.
 833 2013-08-28 10:47:25 wei_ has joined
 834 2013-08-28 10:48:12 <gmaxwell> it wasn't even a single big transaction
 835 2013-08-28 10:48:18 <gmaxwell> it's loads of txn with 1 btc fees it looks like.
 836 2013-08-28 10:48:35 <gmaxwell> oh I'm wrong.
 837 2013-08-28 10:49:12 <gmaxwell> http://blockchain.info/tx/4ed20e0768124bc67dc684d57941be1482ccdaa45dadb64be12afba8c8554537
 838 2013-08-28 10:49:12 yubrew_ has joined
 839 2013-08-28 10:49:12 <gmaxwell> oh fun, that looks like a coinjoin transaction.
 840 2013-08-28 10:49:25 <gmaxwell> I wonder if that was done with genjix's tool.
 841 2013-08-28 10:51:05 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 842 2013-08-28 10:55:49 OPrime has joined
 843 2013-08-28 10:56:21 <Diablo-D3> a what?
 844 2013-08-28 10:57:27 <CodeShark> an expensive test!
 845 2013-08-28 10:58:00 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 846 2013-08-28 11:00:14 <CodeShark> the fee calculation (change output) seems to be off by like 5 or 6 orders of magnitude :)
 847 2013-08-28 11:01:44 <sipa> 200 BTC fee? :o
 848 2013-08-28 11:02:13 <winbtc_moarrr> oh damn, why did i forget that stupid decimal point!
 849 2013-08-28 11:02:45 <gmaxwell> it looks like someone computed the fee as the last input minus the outputs rather than all the inputs minus all the outputs.
 850 2013-08-28 11:02:59 <gmaxwell> er computed the change.
 851 2013-08-28 11:03:29 <sipa> or it's a coinjoin tx, but the second party replaced the outputs rather than added
 852 2013-08-28 11:04:17 <CodeShark> I believe all the inputs come from the same source
 853 2013-08-28 11:04:34 <CodeShark> so most likely it's just a single person running a test
 854 2013-08-28 11:04:36 <gmaxwell> it does, might have been someone expirementing with a coinjoin tool... as it does look a lot like a coinjoin txn.
 855 2013-08-28 11:04:37 <sipa> ok
 856 2013-08-28 11:04:51 <gmaxwell> I don't see any change handling code in genjix's tool.
 857 2013-08-28 11:06:02 eian has joined
 858 2013-08-28 11:06:15 <CodeShark> I never run initial tests on mainnet with these amounts - but then again, whoever did this might have a LOT more coins than I do
 859 2013-08-28 11:06:42 <sipa> "I do not always test on mainnet, but when I do, I do it with huge amounts."
 860 2013-08-28 11:06:45 <gmaxwell> well, might not be CJ txn...
 861 2013-08-28 11:07:30 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: this was the worlds second public CJish transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/69d9d66aae4812b6cf156f32267b773fb2118db696bb847ebd3454a198b59fbd
 862 2013-08-28 11:07:52 <CodeShark> sipa, reference to this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jonathan_Goldsmith_2009.jpg
 863 2013-08-28 11:08:20 <sipa> i had no idea what his real name was, but yes
 864 2013-08-28 11:08:23 <CodeShark> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Jonathan_Goldsmith_2009.jpg
 865 2013-08-28 11:08:33 <gmaxwell> I had no idea what his name was either!
 866 2013-08-28 11:08:45 <CodeShark> yeah, he's a jewish guy from new york :)
 867 2013-08-28 11:09:00 <CodeShark> pretty funny he's been cast in that role
 868 2013-08-28 11:10:03 one_zero has quit ()
 869 2013-08-28 11:10:37 joepie92 has left ()
 870 2013-08-28 11:10:48 nsh is now known as entropy
 871 2013-08-28 11:10:55 entropy is now known as nsh
 872 2013-08-28 11:11:39 <CodeShark> I think the most I've ever lost in mainnet from a bug in my code is like 5 btc
 873 2013-08-28 11:12:02 <sipa> i have no idea how many BTC i jad on mybitcoin...
 874 2013-08-28 11:12:04 <sipa> maybe a few
 875 2013-08-28 11:12:04 <CodeShark> but this was back when bitcoin was < $10
 876 2013-08-28 11:12:26 BTCOxygen is now known as Guest79040
 877 2013-08-28 11:12:26 Guest79040 has quit (Killed (asimov.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
 878 2013-08-28 11:12:27 BTCOxygen has joined
 879 2013-08-28 11:12:38 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 880 2013-08-28 11:13:57 <gmaxwell> wow, I've never lost bitcoin.
 881 2013-08-28 11:14:14 <gmaxwell> I lost namecoin due to a SSD electronics failure.
 882 2013-08-28 11:14:18 <gmaxwell> like a few thousand.
 883 2013-08-28 11:14:27 <gmaxwell> (well maybe only a thousand don't recall now)
 884 2013-08-28 11:14:45 tailcalled has joined
 885 2013-08-28 11:15:37 <CodeShark> change miscalculations are at the top of my list of things to watch for because bitcoin is extremely unforgiving about that
 886 2013-08-28 11:16:30 <CodeShark> the 5 btc or whatever I lost were also due to a change miscalculation
 887 2013-08-28 11:18:52 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 888 2013-08-28 11:19:10 ielo has joined
 889 2013-08-28 11:24:08 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
 890 2013-08-28 11:28:26 <CodeShark> alright, this time for real - goodnight, guys
 891 2013-08-28 11:28:42 <sipa> nite
 892 2013-08-28 11:29:26 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 893 2013-08-28 11:30:00 Odyessus has joined
 894 2013-08-28 11:31:03 debiantoruser has joined
 895 2013-08-28 11:31:42 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
 896 2013-08-28 11:31:54 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 897 2013-08-28 11:34:34 volante has joined
 898 2013-08-28 11:34:41 CheckDavid has joined
 899 2013-08-28 11:35:51 <gmaxwell> I got ahold of friedcat and he said they'll refund if the sender can provide them signatures on all the inputs.
 900 2013-08-28 11:36:05 <warren> wow
 901 2013-08-28 11:36:26 <gmaxwell> Graet has refunded a jumbo fee before too.
 902 2013-08-28 11:36:30 <gmaxwell> (IIRC)
 903 2013-08-28 11:37:34 <warren> I lost Bitcoin due to not believing it would survive from early 2010.  I gave away my Bitcoins so as not to have an abandoned, deleted wallet pollute the UTXO set forever.
 904 2013-08-28 11:37:47 <warren> Shows how smart I was.
 905 2013-08-28 11:38:27 <gmaxwell> oh :( well now that you mention that.
 906 2013-08-28 11:38:39 <gmaxwell> I'm reasonably sure I lost an unknown amount of coin from 2009.
 907 2013-08-28 11:38:48 <gmaxwell> (I think at least 500, perhaps just that perhaps lots more0
 908 2013-08-28 11:38:55 <gmaxwell> but I wasn't counting that. :P
 909 2013-08-28 11:39:01 <warren> =)
 910 2013-08-28 11:39:35 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 911 2013-08-28 11:40:58 <Graet> gmaxwell, btcguild did - no-one ever came forward to claim lost coins on our one so we did a "bonus payout" to miners
 912 2013-08-28 11:41:07 jtimon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 913 2013-08-28 11:42:05 <gmaxwell> Graet: ah, I know eligius got one (40 btc?) and also had no one (but scammers!) come forward.
 914 2013-08-28 11:42:08 <sipa> it's tempting to say "damn, if only i had kept those 2000 BTC i mined in 2010"
 915 2013-08-28 11:42:08 <sipa> but imho, if you're mining and not immediately selling, you're just speculating
 916 2013-08-28 11:43:12 <Graet> good on friedcat if he does - his shareholders are getting excited already ;)
 917 2013-08-28 11:43:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's exactly the same as saying "damn, I wish I ate one less cheeseburger in 2010 and used the $5 to but 1000 BTC!"
 918 2013-08-28 11:43:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: yup
 919 2013-08-28 11:43:27 <gmaxwell> Graet: still requires the owner showing up.
 920 2013-08-28 11:43:35 <Graet> yep
 921 2013-08-28 11:43:54 <warren> Early 2010 I read the Satoshi paper, found it plausible, but I thought the government would make examples out of people rather than risk Snow Crash happening.
 922 2013-08-28 11:44:27 <gmaxwell> warren: weird, I saw bitcoin on some mailing list but never saw the paper.
 923 2013-08-28 11:44:47 <gmaxwell> I misunderstood how it worked and thought the consensus was just counting peers and that the pow was just for the lottery.
 924 2013-08-28 11:45:05 <gmaxwell> And since that was trivially insecure, I figured it would just be a novelity, and perhaps useful as some antispam stuff.
 925 2013-08-28 11:45:25 <warren> irony, antispam is the only thing Bitcoin doesn't do.
 926 2013-08-28 11:45:27 agnostic98 has joined
 927 2013-08-28 11:45:32 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 928 2013-08-28 11:45:34 <gmaxwell> I'd played with hal's RPOW stuff, so I mostly thought of it as RPOW with some weak p2p thing instead of the ibmcryptocard.
 929 2013-08-28 11:45:59 BTCOxygen has joined
 930 2013-08-28 11:46:16 <gmaxwell> I started it up, in wine in a vnc session and forgot about it.. didn't keep running it because I knew no one else using it and had nothing to use it for, and it was pita.
 931 2013-08-28 11:46:40 <warren> yeah, it caused my laptop to overheat and kill itself
 932 2013-08-28 11:47:05 <gmaxwell> Didn't notice bitcoin again until the end of 2010 when I had some gpus that were idle (a customer had bought them for me because I coded some gpgpu crypto stuff for them) and I was looking for fun computational tasks to use them on..
 933 2013-08-28 11:47:24 <warren> (it still does ... same laptop... I can't sync the bitcoin blockchain on this thing without underclocking and locking it to a single core.
 934 2013-08-28 11:47:42 <gmaxwell> "holy shit? this still exists <reads paper> Oh crap, this could actually work! <reads source code> <buys more gpus>"
 935 2013-08-28 11:48:23 <warren> I didn't look at Bitcoin again until February 2013 when I had to choose a topic to research and present for Internet Law & Policy class.
 936 2013-08-28 11:48:40 <warren> Needless to say, I found it uninteresting and I moved on quickly. =P
 937 2013-08-28 11:48:58 <gmaxwell> warren: we talked about a bunch in 2011 in an irc channel you were in, so no excuses.
 938 2013-08-28 11:49:12 <warren> I know, I just wasn't paying attention.
 939 2013-08-28 11:49:50 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 940 2013-08-28 11:50:51 cads has joined
 941 2013-08-28 11:51:01 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 942 2013-08-28 11:52:58 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
 943 2013-08-28 11:56:25 random_cat has joined
 944 2013-08-28 11:57:20 eian has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 945 2013-08-28 11:57:51 jtimon has joined
 946 2013-08-28 11:59:26 Belxjander has joined
 947 2013-08-28 12:03:20 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 948 2013-08-28 12:04:37 fanquake has quit (Quit: fanquake)
 949 2013-08-28 12:06:38 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 950 2013-08-28 12:13:54 Anduckkk is now known as Anduck
 951 2013-08-28 12:26:47 tailcalled has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 952 2013-08-28 12:33:15 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
 953 2013-08-28 12:39:34 agnostic98 has joined
 954 2013-08-28 12:43:11 peetaur2 has joined
 955 2013-08-28 12:44:22 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 956 2013-08-28 12:44:42 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 957 2013-08-28 12:45:01 jchp has joined
 958 2013-08-28 12:45:13 BTCOxygen has joined
 959 2013-08-28 12:46:45 <jouke> Would it be hard to disable the broadcasting-solution of a node? I would like to use the wallet-functions of bitcoind and I would like to keep it up to date with the blokchain, but I would not want it to broadcast transactions automatically.
 960 2013-08-28 12:47:14 <Luke-Jr> leech
 961 2013-08-28 12:47:39 <jouke> Luke-Jr: I would let it connect to only a few nodes of my own.
 962 2013-08-28 12:47:40 <sipa> you mean just broadcasting, not relaying?
 963 2013-08-28 12:47:56 <jouke> sipa: if that distinction could be made, yes.
 964 2013-08-28 12:48:03 <sipa> jouke: yes, they are separate
 965 2013-08-28 12:48:27 <sipa> jouke: it should be easy to disable, i think
 966 2013-08-28 12:52:57 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
 967 2013-08-28 13:01:08 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
 968 2013-08-28 13:02:33 Loggan has joined
 969 2013-08-28 13:03:54 Loggan has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 970 2013-08-28 13:06:40 tsst has joined
 971 2013-08-28 13:07:15 Subo1977 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 972 2013-08-28 13:09:02 yubrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 973 2013-08-28 13:09:21 winbtc_moarrr has quit ()
 974 2013-08-28 13:11:34 reneg_ has joined
 975 2013-08-28 13:11:51 Subo1977 has joined
 976 2013-08-28 13:12:11 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 977 2013-08-28 13:16:11 dotconf has joined
 978 2013-08-28 13:17:34 _dr has joined
 979 2013-08-28 13:17:47 Clown- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 980 2013-08-28 13:18:10  has joined
 981 2013-08-28 13:18:11 <_dr> good job on improving initial sync; seems to be a bit faster than a few months ago
 982 2013-08-28 13:18:58 <_dr> still annoying as f. though :)
 983 2013-08-28 13:19:18 reneg_ has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
 984 2013-08-28 13:19:35 reneg has joined
 985 2013-08-28 13:20:10 <sipa> more improvements to come
 986 2013-08-28 13:22:31 normanrichards has joined
 987 2013-08-28 13:25:34 dotconf has quit (Quit: leaving)
 988 2013-08-28 13:26:28 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 989 2013-08-28 13:28:28 mintmoney has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 990 2013-08-28 13:28:41 ielo has joined
 991 2013-08-28 13:28:59 minty has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 992 2013-08-28 13:29:49 <runeks> Thinking about that 200 BTC fee transaction... it could actually be a way to mix coins.
 993 2013-08-28 13:30:31 <runeks> Step 1: Pre-mine a block. Step 2: Include your transaction in that block (don't publish it). Result: you now have transferred 200 BTC as fees to another address, and no one will suspect anything.
 994 2013-08-28 13:30:47 <Luke-Jr> runeks: except everyone will suspect it
 995 2013-08-28 13:30:58 <Luke-Jr> runeks: and an ambitious miner can try to take it
 996 2013-08-28 13:30:58 <sipa> also, step 2 goes before step 1 :)
 997 2013-08-28 13:31:00 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Did you suspect it?
 998 2013-08-28 13:31:06 <Luke-Jr> runeks: if I knew about it
 999 2013-08-28 13:31:13 <Cusipzzz> cut a deal with the pool in advance, easy game
1000 2013-08-28 13:31:22 <Luke-Jr> not so easy, no
1001 2013-08-28 13:31:27 <runeks> sipa: Oh yeah, good point :)
1002 2013-08-28 13:31:37 <Luke-Jr> you've just incentivized btcguild grabbing the fee by orphaning the block
1003 2013-08-28 13:32:00 <runeks> Luke-Jr: How would you take it? There's no reason to publish the transaction.
1004 2013-08-28 13:32:09 <Luke-Jr> runeks: you have to publish it with your block
1005 2013-08-28 13:32:13 * jgarzik decides RPC raw needs a 'getchangeaddress'
1006 2013-08-28 13:32:23 <Luke-Jr> so I see it, put it in my own block, and try to orphan you
1007 2013-08-28 13:32:27 <jgarzik> change seems to be one issue poorly handled by RPC
1008 2013-08-28 13:32:28 <jgarzik> right now
1009 2013-08-28 13:32:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: isn't a change address defined as one not in the address book, but used?
1010 2013-08-28 13:32:59 <sipa> yup
1011 2013-08-28 13:33:00 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Right. That makes sense. Doesn't make sense for ~1 BTC in fees as they usually are. But mining for 200 BTC creates a different incentive.
1012 2013-08-28 13:33:04 <jgarzik> "mine but not in address book"
1013 2013-08-28 13:33:05 <jgarzik> yes
1014 2013-08-28 13:34:23 <runeks> Actually, without doing the math, I think it would be profitable for most miners to try to include the transaction in their own block and orphan the existing block.
1015 2013-08-28 13:34:52 <runeks> The chance of succeeding isn't great, but your reward is 8x what you would normally get (200 BTC vs 25 BTC)
1016 2013-08-28 13:35:01 <runeks> Actually 225 BTC vs 25 BTC
1017 2013-08-28 13:37:57 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1018 2013-08-28 13:40:23 <Luke-Jr> 225 can be split among 8 different miners collaborating on it
1019 2013-08-28 13:40:29 <Luke-Jr> that's easily 51%
1020 2013-08-28 13:40:49 _jps has joined
1021 2013-08-28 13:43:50 daybyter has joined
1022 2013-08-28 13:43:55 minty has joined
1023 2013-08-28 13:43:56 mintmoney has joined
1024 2013-08-28 13:47:10 viperhr has joined
1025 2013-08-28 13:47:57 joepie91 has joined
1026 2013-08-28 13:48:35 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1027 2013-08-28 13:50:20 patcon has joined
1028 2013-08-28 13:52:12 AusBitBank_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1029 2013-08-28 13:55:04 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1030 2013-08-28 13:55:52 BTCOxygen has joined
1031 2013-08-28 14:02:40 ie6 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1032 2013-08-28 14:06:17 <runeks> Luke-Jr: But if the chance of that block being ignored is 50% then it's not profitable (on average). 50% chance you'll not earn anything, 50% chance you'll earn 28.5 BTC (225 BTC divided by 8)
1033 2013-08-28 14:06:41 <Luke-Jr> runeks: with 8 people, the chance of it being ignores is near 0
1034 2013-08-28 14:06:52 <Luke-Jr> assuming the 8 people are the biggest pools
1035 2013-08-28 14:07:00 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1036 2013-08-28 14:07:16 <runeks> Luke-Jr: It depends on what their network share is. They need to find two blocks in a row so that their chain becomes the longest.
1037 2013-08-28 14:07:19 <kinlo> there are less then 20 pools....
1038 2013-08-28 14:07:57 <kinlo> the top 3 pools already have > 51%
1039 2013-08-28 14:08:12 <runeks> If someone publishes a block, and you publish a block that conflicts with it, the odds are against you. You need to extend your own chain, because everyone else will work on the block they received first (or will they work on the block with the highest POW?).
1040 2013-08-28 14:08:43 <kinlo> you are correct, they mine on the block they received first
1041 2013-08-28 14:09:35 <kinlo> the POW is only used to see if it matches D or not.  Nowhere in the code is the POW used for anything else, either it matches or not, how high or low the POW is doesn't matter
1042 2013-08-28 14:09:45 <runeks> But with a potential 225 BTC reward, this disadvantage can be outweighed by having a substantial share of the network.
1043 2013-08-28 14:09:51 <runeks> kinlo: Are you sure?
1044 2013-08-28 14:09:56 <kinlo> runeks: yes.
1045 2013-08-28 14:10:27 <sipa> kinlo: POW != hash
1046 2013-08-28 14:10:40 <kinlo> eh, right, change POW to hash
1047 2013-08-28 14:10:45 <sipa> the PoW of a block is the inverse of its target
1048 2013-08-28 14:10:52 <runeks> kinlo: Then why does debug.log mention "log2_work"? As far as I know this is the cumulative work done on  a chain. And the one with the most work done wins.
1049 2013-08-28 14:10:54 <runeks> 2013-08-26 23:46:06 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000000124e24e8031f20d322a2df0c9e57988e7a4a770853c45fb48c  height=254397  log2_work=71.460905  tx=22780611  date=2013-08-26 23:45:45 progress=0.999997
1050 2013-08-28 14:10:56 <sipa> and the block is valid or not
1051 2013-08-28 14:11:08 <sipa> one of the requirements for which is that the hash is belong the target
1052 2013-08-28 14:11:16 <sipa> *below
1053 2013-08-28 14:11:34 <kinlo> POW = you prooved you did work.  The hash value is irrelevant,e ither it matches D and the POW is confirmed, or it does not match and you didn't proove your work.
1054 2013-08-28 14:12:01 <sipa> the important part is that the amount of work you're doing is determined before you start working
1055 2013-08-28 14:12:03 <kinlo> matches -> that your hash value is below the difficulty
1056 2013-08-28 14:12:35 yubrew has joined
1057 2013-08-28 14:12:40 <runeks> kinlo: That makes sense. So then the log2_work would just be determined by the difficulty; not by whatever hash you happen to find that is below the target.
1058 2013-08-28 14:13:05 <runeks> sipa: How is the log2_work figure calculated? Is it calculated from the actualy block hashes, or just from the target of the valid blocks?
1059 2013-08-28 14:13:10 <kinlo> runeks: the longest chain is indeed measured byt the total sum of all D's of those blocks, not by the hashes that were found
1060 2013-08-28 14:13:13 <sipa> runeks: kinlo is right
1061 2013-08-28 14:13:20 <sipa> runeks: only the difficulty matters, not the hash
1062 2013-08-28 14:13:23 <runeks> Cool. Good to know.
1063 2013-08-28 14:13:47 <sipa> you would have extreme variance if you used the actual hash, and difficulties wouldn't be linear
1064 2013-08-28 14:14:00 <sipa> it's not technically wrong though, just much less useful
1065 2013-08-28 14:14:20 <kinlo> runeks: which makes sense.  Imagine I'm so lucky to find a block with an incredible POW, the hash is really really low.  Then my block will yield a "longer" chain, while it might not be
1066 2013-08-28 14:14:41 <kinlo> if you'd measure chain lenght in actual hashes instead of D's
1067 2013-08-28 14:14:45 <runeks> kinlo: Yeah that's a good point. A shorter chain could actually be chosen rather than a longer one.
1068 2013-08-28 14:15:03 <sipa> the difficulty requirements just selects a particular subset of blocks to be valid
1069 2013-08-28 14:15:17 <sipa> the amount of work you have to do is how small that set is
1070 2013-08-28 14:15:41 ie6 has joined
1071 2013-08-28 14:15:44 <runeks> sipa: Yeah, and it doesn't make sense to judge by the actual hash, as we know everyone publish blocks that are less than target.
1072 2013-08-28 14:16:11 <sipa> well, you could build a system that used actual hash values
1073 2013-08-28 14:16:21 <sipa> but it would end up being much much more of a lottery
1074 2013-08-28 14:16:28 <sipa> and the difficulty/work calculations would be harder
1075 2013-08-28 14:16:47 <kinlo> sipa: I dont think it would work...  it would be too easy to split the chain
1076 2013-08-28 14:16:55 <runeks> sipa: I was just contemplating that. Could we envision a system without a target? The chain with most work just wins. And miners decide for themeselves which chain they like. This would also entail no fixed block time.
1077 2013-08-28 14:17:04 <sipa> runeks: log2_work is log2(sum(for each block: 2^256 / block.target))
1078 2013-08-28 14:17:22 <sipa> runeks: you need to define work
1079 2013-08-28 14:17:38 <sipa> runeks: you can do that without a fixed target, or you could use the actual hash
1080 2013-08-28 14:17:43 <runeks> sipa: Work is 1/block.hash
1081 2013-08-28 14:17:43 <sipa> the latter would be a really bad idea
1082 2013-08-28 14:18:02 <sipa> no, work should be 1/target, but there's no problem in letting miners choose their own target
1083 2013-08-28 14:18:07 <helo> the goal is to come to distributed consensus routinely and predictably
1084 2013-08-28 14:18:14 <sipa> you need to set the amount of work before doing the work
1085 2013-08-28 14:18:51 <runeks> sipa: It's not obvious to me why that would be the case.
1086 2013-08-28 14:19:00 <sipa> it would be a lottery
1087 2013-08-28 14:19:17 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1088 2013-08-28 14:19:24 <sipa> if you find a hash that happens to be 1000 times smaller than others (which would happen every week), you can reorg hundreds of blocks
1089 2013-08-28 14:19:26 <runeks> I mean, we could set a minimum difficulty of 1 like Bitcoin already has.
1090 2013-08-28 14:19:55 <sipa> but before you reason further about this: why does bitcoin have a predetermined difficulty?
1091 2013-08-28 14:20:11 <runeks> sipa: Do you have proof of that? Can you point a block out whose hash is 1000 times less than the target?
1092 2013-08-28 14:20:25 <runeks> sipa: To rate-limit new blocks founds.
1093 2013-08-28 14:20:30 <runeks> *found
1094 2013-08-28 14:20:34 <sipa> runeks: i'm sure about it, without looking
1095 2013-08-28 14:21:16 <runeks> sipa: But the question is how many blocks that would revert. After all, the factor 1000 would compete against the *sum* work of the previous blocks.
1096 2013-08-28 14:21:17 ie6 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1097 2013-08-28 14:21:22 <runeks> I guess I could write a script that figures that out.
1098 2013-08-28 14:21:41 uinogota has joined
1099 2013-08-28 14:22:19 uinogota has quit (Client Quit)
1100 2013-08-28 14:22:35 uinogota has joined
1101 2013-08-28 14:22:53 <_dr> is there a good way to list the utxo using the reference client? or maybe a tool that does that using my local copy of the blockchain?
1102 2013-08-28 14:23:03 <runeks> sipa: But let's say you do find a hash that is 1000 times smaller. You would have to, beforehand, start from an early block, thus giving yourself a disadvantage from the beginning.
1103 2013-08-28 14:23:26 <sipa> runeks: sure, it's not necessarily an attack
1104 2013-08-28 14:23:26 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1105 2013-08-28 14:23:29 <runeks> So you're at a disadvantage compared to everyone else who starts with the latest block
1106 2013-08-28 14:23:42 <sipa> runeks: i'm just saying that you can get lucky and get a block that is unfair to compete against
1107 2013-08-28 14:23:49 <sipa> resulting in worse convergence behaviour
1108 2013-08-28 14:24:02 <sipa> though i'm sure it would mean that some attacks become easier to
1109 2013-08-28 14:24:29 hnz has joined
1110 2013-08-28 14:24:39 <runeks> sipa: What do you mean "unfair to compete against"? Rational miners wouldn't compete against, they would work with, ie. extend that chain.
1111 2013-08-28 14:25:05 <runeks> Sounds like a fun experiment to me.
1112 2013-08-28 14:25:31 <sipa> write a network simulator with miners and random latencies between them, using such a PoW valuation function
1113 2013-08-28 14:25:36 <sipa> and see what happens :)
1114 2013-08-28 14:25:46 twobitcoins has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1115 2013-08-28 14:26:07 <runeks> I should do that.
1116 2013-08-28 14:26:12 twobitcoins has joined
1117 2013-08-28 14:27:05 uinogota has quit (Client Quit)
1118 2013-08-28 14:27:20 uinogota has joined
1119 2013-08-28 14:27:34 agnostic98 has joined
1120 2013-08-28 14:28:14 <runeks> It would be fun to see which blocks would make sense to publish. Would be interested to see if there's an incentive to spam the network with low difficulty blocks. Just thinking about it now I don't see why you wouldn't publish a block as long as it's more than the minimum difficulty.
1121 2013-08-28 14:28:22 <runeks> Might require some modifications.
1122 2013-08-28 14:30:31 btcbtc has joined
1123 2013-08-28 14:31:48 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1124 2013-08-28 14:34:24 leakybuckit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1125 2013-08-28 14:34:40 ielo has joined
1126 2013-08-28 14:37:27 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1127 2013-08-28 14:39:10 chorao2 has joined
1128 2013-08-28 14:41:58 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1129 2013-08-28 14:43:03 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1130 2013-08-28 14:43:35 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1131 2013-08-28 14:43:48 GordonG3kko has joined
1132 2013-08-28 14:44:50 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1133 2013-08-28 14:45:39 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1134 2013-08-28 14:46:33 yubrew has joined
1135 2013-08-28 14:46:35 jevin has joined
1136 2013-08-28 14:50:11 joepie91 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1137 2013-08-28 14:51:40 joepie91 has joined
1138 2013-08-28 14:51:41 Subo1977 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1139 2013-08-28 14:51:50 btcbtc has joined
1140 2013-08-28 14:53:36 Subo1977 has joined
1141 2013-08-28 14:57:17 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1142 2013-08-28 14:57:55 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1143 2013-08-28 14:58:20 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
1144 2013-08-28 14:58:42 BTCOxygen is now known as Guest11213
1145 2013-08-28 14:58:42 BTCOxygen has joined
1146 2013-08-28 14:58:42 Guest11213 has quit (Killed (sendak.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
1147 2013-08-28 14:58:42 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
1148 2013-08-28 14:59:25 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1149 2013-08-28 14:59:47 reneg has joined
1150 2013-08-28 15:00:21 jcorgan has joined
1151 2013-08-28 15:01:52 sserrano44 has joined
1152 2013-08-28 15:07:19 epscy has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0)
1153 2013-08-28 15:07:31 _jps has joined
1154 2013-08-28 15:08:15 agnostic98 has joined
1155 2013-08-28 15:13:05 eps has joined
1156 2013-08-28 15:14:03 normanrichards has joined
1157 2013-08-28 15:16:29 CryptoBuck has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1158 2013-08-28 15:16:38 CryptoBuck has joined
1159 2013-08-28 15:16:46 GingerGeek has quit (Quit: Right, well my BNC has quit. It was on a Raspberry Pi, what do you expect!)
1160 2013-08-28 15:17:47 GingerGeek has joined
1161 2013-08-28 15:18:47 Anduckkk has joined
1162 2013-08-28 15:18:47 Anduckkk has quit (Changing host)
1163 2013-08-28 15:18:47 Anduckkk has joined
1164 2013-08-28 15:20:32 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1165 2013-08-28 15:21:43 rdymac has joined
1166 2013-08-28 15:23:42 Anduck has joined
1167 2013-08-28 15:23:42 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
1168 2013-08-28 15:23:42 Anduck has joined
1169 2013-08-28 15:25:59 Anduckkk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1170 2013-08-28 15:27:55 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1171 2013-08-28 15:28:59 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1172 2013-08-28 15:30:35 nomailing has joined
1173 2013-08-28 15:30:43 nsillik has joined
1174 2013-08-28 15:31:34 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1175 2013-08-28 15:31:46 reneg has joined
1176 2013-08-28 15:32:23 yubrew has joined
1177 2013-08-28 15:32:59 ThomasV has joined
1178 2013-08-28 15:33:08 t7 has quit (Quit: hometime)
1179 2013-08-28 15:33:52 ThomasV has quit (Client Quit)
1180 2013-08-28 15:35:55 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
1181 2013-08-28 15:36:01 volante has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1182 2013-08-28 15:36:40 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1183 2013-08-28 15:38:22 melvster has joined
1184 2013-08-28 15:38:59 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1185 2013-08-28 15:40:36 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1186 2013-08-28 15:40:55 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1187 2013-08-28 15:43:25 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1188 2013-08-28 15:44:17 Application has joined
1189 2013-08-28 15:44:39 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
1190 2013-08-28 15:44:50 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1191 2013-08-28 15:45:21 santoscork has joined
1192 2013-08-28 15:45:25 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1193 2013-08-28 15:46:02 Application has joined
1194 2013-08-28 15:46:04 [Author] has joined
1195 2013-08-28 15:47:46 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1196 2013-08-28 15:49:20 Jere_Jones has quit ()
1197 2013-08-28 15:50:32 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1198 2013-08-28 15:50:43 Goonie has joined
1199 2013-08-28 15:52:17 freewil has joined
1200 2013-08-28 15:57:29 sserrano44 has joined
1201 2013-08-28 16:00:38 [\\\] has joined
1202 2013-08-28 16:10:52 <petertodd> Smallest block ever, 95 bytes: 00000000000000189ad9b20ed103ac14ca5c08ecfb0f5a0f538e4678f4535c46
1203 2013-08-28 16:11:21 Vinnie_win has joined
1204 2013-08-28 16:11:24 _jps has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1205 2013-08-28 16:11:31 <petertodd> Largest block, 998,053 bytes: 000000000000023d9a3ee2714f4365b2d312700ba113af23084104319133c6c0
1206 2013-08-28 16:11:37 _jps has joined
1207 2013-08-28 16:11:46 <sipa> 95??
1208 2013-08-28 16:11:56 <sipa> that's not possible
1209 2013-08-28 16:12:08 <sipa> oh, or is it excluding the header?
1210 2013-08-28 16:12:15 <petertodd> Yeah
1211 2013-08-28 16:12:23 jtimon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1212 2013-08-28 16:12:29 <petertodd> 95 bytes of transactions
1213 2013-08-28 16:12:40 <sipa> so 176 in total, i guess
1214 2013-08-28 16:12:50 <petertodd> Yeah
1215 2013-08-28 16:13:10 <petertodd> Having said that, 95 bytes total would be possible too you know if you left the scriptPubKey empty.
1216 2013-08-28 16:13:35 <sipa> no
1217 2013-08-28 16:13:41 <petertodd> Only restriction is the block height in coinbase, and how you need extraNonce in practice.
1218 2013-08-28 16:14:21 <sipa> the txin already requires 36 bytes + script
1219 2013-08-28 16:14:22 <petertodd> Er, right, not 95 bytes, um... 153 bytes?
1220 2013-08-28 16:16:13 <petertodd> Anyway, the other interesting thing is that the largest block ever included what may be the largest transaction ever too, 465,554 bytes: 659135664894e50040830edb516a76f704fd2be409ecd8d1ea9916c002ab28a2
1221 2013-08-28 16:18:57 <petertodd> And, code to produce this with the new python-bitcoinlib RPC support:
1222 2013-08-28 16:19:03 <petertodd> import bitcoin.rpc
1223 2013-08-28 16:19:18 <petertodd> proxy = bitcoin.rpc.Proxy() # grabs user.pass from ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf automatically
1224 2013-08-28 16:19:29 <petertodd> sizes = [(proxy.getblock(proxy.getblockhash(i))['size'],i) for i in range(proxy.getblockcount())]
1225 2013-08-28 16:19:38 Transisto has joined
1226 2013-08-28 16:19:44 <petertodd> sorted(sizes,key=lambda x: x[0])
1227 2013-08-28 16:20:02 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1228 2013-08-28 16:20:29 CryptoBuck has joined
1229 2013-08-28 16:20:36 <petertodd> Still working on making bitcoin.rpc.Proxy() automatically serialize/deserialize JSON to bitcoin.core instances in my 'pythonize' branch.
1230 2013-08-28 16:23:43 rdponticelli has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1231 2013-08-28 16:25:39 _ingsoc has joined
1232 2013-08-28 16:25:47 rdponticelli has joined
1233 2013-08-28 16:27:26 michagogo has joined
1234 2013-08-28 16:28:49 <Luke-Jr> crap
1235 2013-08-28 16:28:52 digitalmagus2 has joined
1236 2013-08-28 16:28:56 <Luke-Jr> made a CNAME for dns seed instead of NS
1237 2013-08-28 16:29:14 * Luke-Jr fixed
1238 2013-08-28 16:29:15 <petertodd> lol, I made that mistake too :/
1239 2013-08-28 16:29:39 <michagogo> Lol?
1240 2013-08-28 16:29:42 * michagogo checks logs
1241 2013-08-28 16:29:48 <Luke-Jr> there we go, dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org back online
1242 2013-08-28 16:30:10 <michagogo> BTW, any #bitcoin ops around?
1243 2013-08-28 16:30:18 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: weird, it's only returning feathercoin nodes
1244 2013-08-28 16:30:31 <Luke-Jr> …
1245 2013-08-28 16:30:40 <petertodd> hehe
1246 2013-08-28 16:30:56 <michagogo> The logs link in #bitcoin is broken -- it sends you to the logs from May
1247 2013-08-28 16:31:11 <petertodd> didn't know there was #bitcoin logs
1248 2013-08-28 16:31:14 <michagogo> Yeah
1249 2013-08-28 16:31:37 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1250 2013-08-28 16:31:51 <michagogo> the topic here points to bitcoinstats.com, which redirects to http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/08
1251 2013-08-28 16:31:58 <michagogo> (with the month being the current one)
1252 2013-08-28 16:32:18 <michagogo> The topic there points to http://bit.ly/1082HNz, which redirects to http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin/logs/2013/05
1253 2013-08-28 16:32:48 <petertodd> weird, because there are more recent logs: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin/logs/2013/08
1254 2013-08-28 16:33:04 <michagogo> petertodd: I know, that's my point
1255 2013-08-28 16:33:07 graingert_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1256 2013-08-28 16:33:31 <michagogo> It should be a pointer to http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin/logs/
1257 2013-08-28 16:33:36 <petertodd> yeah
1258 2013-08-28 16:33:39 <michagogo> Which goes to the current month
1259 2013-08-28 16:34:18 reneg has joined
1260 2013-08-28 16:34:25 graingert has joined
1261 2013-08-28 16:37:27 <petertodd> Funny how right after gmaxwell launches the coinjoin bounty there's a rash of articles talking about how public and non-anonymous Bitcoin is... http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-08/28/bitcoin-anonymity http://www.pcworld.com/article/2047608/bitcoin-offers-privacy-as-long-as-you-dont-cash-out-or-spend-it.html
1262 2013-08-28 16:41:45 jicksta has joined
1263 2013-08-28 16:42:37 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1264 2013-08-28 16:43:16 nomailing has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1265 2013-08-28 16:43:48 Vinnie_win has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1266 2013-08-28 16:44:24 chorao2 has left ()
1267 2013-08-28 16:44:30 chorao has joined
1268 2013-08-28 16:45:25 btcquant has joined
1269 2013-08-28 16:47:29 Eiii has joined
1270 2013-08-28 16:47:29 Eiii has quit (Changing host)
1271 2013-08-28 16:47:29 Eiii has joined
1272 2013-08-28 16:48:25 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1273 2013-08-28 16:48:32 reneg has joined
1274 2013-08-28 16:48:54 nomailing has joined
1275 2013-08-28 16:49:00 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds)
1276 2013-08-28 16:49:58 BTCOxygen has joined
1277 2013-08-28 16:52:48 Zoop_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1278 2013-08-28 16:53:39 asuk has joined
1279 2013-08-28 16:56:30 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1280 2013-08-28 16:59:37 jicksta has joined
1281 2013-08-28 17:01:50 abrkn has joined
1282 2013-08-28 17:03:55 altamic has joined
1283 2013-08-28 17:04:10 altamic has left ()
1284 2013-08-28 17:05:54 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1285 2013-08-28 17:06:42 asuk has quit (Quit: asuk)
1286 2013-08-28 17:08:59 roconnor has joined
1287 2013-08-28 17:13:37 Zoop_ has joined
1288 2013-08-28 17:19:39 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1289 2013-08-28 17:19:46 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1290 2013-08-28 17:21:35 patcon_ has joined
1291 2013-08-28 17:22:00 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1292 2013-08-28 17:22:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: aaaaand it's on /.
1293 2013-08-28 17:22:58 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1294 2013-08-28 17:23:13 Ashaman has joined
1295 2013-08-28 17:24:06 <gmaxwell> "oh shit, publish the paper before they fix it!"
1296 2013-08-28 17:25:27 <_ingsoc> Haters make you famous, gmaxwell. :D
1297 2013-08-28 17:25:28 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1298 2013-08-28 17:26:59 rdponticelli has joined
1299 2013-08-28 17:28:19 Ashaman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1300 2013-08-28 17:31:17 jicksta has joined
1301 2013-08-28 17:32:21 MiningBuddy- has joined
1302 2013-08-28 17:32:47 eculver has quit (Quit: leaving)
1303 2013-08-28 17:32:56 eculver has joined
1304 2013-08-28 17:32:56 eculver has quit (Changing host)
1305 2013-08-28 17:32:56 eculver has joined
1306 2013-08-28 17:33:23 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1307 2013-08-28 17:33:56 CheckDavid has joined
1308 2013-08-28 17:36:49 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1309 2013-08-28 17:37:12 execut3 has joined
1310 2013-08-28 17:37:27 btcquant has left ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
1311 2013-08-28 17:38:33 banghouse has joined
1312 2013-08-28 17:39:18 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1313 2013-08-28 17:40:08 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: "As I write this people with unknown motivations are raining down tiny little payments on old addresses" is there a post about this?
1314 2013-08-28 17:40:33 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1315 2013-08-28 17:40:41 reneg has joined
1316 2013-08-28 17:41:24 btcbtc has joined
1317 2013-08-28 17:41:54 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
1318 2013-08-28 17:41:57 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: there have been a couple here and there.
1319 2013-08-28 17:42:53 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: okay, I'll search.  Is there a nice keyword that could help narrow it down
1320 2013-08-28 17:43:09 btcbtc has quit (Client Quit)
1321 2013-08-28 17:43:45 yubrew has joined
1322 2013-08-28 17:44:15 ielo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1323 2013-08-28 17:45:38 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1324 2013-08-28 17:46:56 PrimeStunna has joined
1325 2013-08-28 17:48:04 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1326 2013-08-28 17:49:05 _jps has joined
1327 2013-08-28 17:52:48 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1328 2013-08-28 17:53:48 <jgarzik> https://plus.google.com/105424721218711536033/posts/feNSPqJDC7r
1329 2013-08-28 17:54:16 <jgarzik> I am often reminded of this quote, when people ask me about the possibility of key collisions and cracking bit coins and such
1330 2013-08-28 17:54:38 <jgarzik> it's just… interesting… how a lot of people reason in the face of absurdly large numbers
1331 2013-08-28 17:55:02 <jgarzik> but hey, people waste money on the Powerball lottery every day, so what do I know?
1332 2013-08-28 17:57:11 bmcgee has joined
1333 2013-08-28 17:57:24 jicksta has joined
1334 2013-08-28 17:58:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: good quote!
1335 2013-08-28 17:58:46 <michagogo> jgarzik: Any ETA on the bootstrap.dat update?
1336 2013-08-28 18:00:24 <jgarzik> michagogo, um, keep nagging me about it ;p
1337 2013-08-28 18:00:33 * michagogo nags jgarzik
1338 2013-08-28 18:00:40 <jgarzik> pynode broke, so I need to redo it in C
1339 2013-08-28 18:00:41 execut3 has joined
1340 2013-08-28 18:00:49 Gues_____ has joined
1341 2013-08-28 18:00:51 <michagogo> Oh, on the march fork?
1342 2013-08-28 18:01:01 <michagogo> Or something else?
1343 2013-08-28 18:01:02 <jgarzik> no, more recently
1344 2013-08-28 18:01:08 <jgarzik> block #245xxx somewhere
1345 2013-08-28 18:01:16 <michagogo> Do you know what caused it?
1346 2013-08-28 18:01:29 <jgarzik> if I did, it would have already been fixed and torrent posted ;p
1347 2013-08-28 18:02:29 <michagogo> [21:00:07] <jgarzik> pynode broke, so I need to redo it in C
1348 2013-08-28 18:02:29 <michagogo> ...like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.msg1544885#msg1544885 ?
1349 2013-08-28 18:02:40 <sipa> jgarzik: just cat blk*.dat >bootstrap.dat ?
1350 2013-08-28 18:02:57 <sipa> (after a fresh load-from-network, so there are no reorgs in there)
1351 2013-08-28 18:03:14 <jgarzik> sipa, not easily reproducible by third parties, due to padding
1352 2013-08-28 18:03:42 <gmaxwell> trimming the padding would be pretty easy.
1353 2013-08-28 18:03:54 <jgarzik> sipa, and I want a "give me a linearized block chain, with no reorgs" tool for this and other purposes anyway
1354 2013-08-28 18:03:59 <sipa> if you exclude the last blk.dat file, there is no padding
1355 2013-08-28 18:04:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh do we trim the padding already?
1356 2013-08-28 18:04:13 <jgarzik> sipa, have to stop at a specific block
1357 2013-08-28 18:04:14 <sipa> yes
1358 2013-08-28 18:04:18 <sipa> jgarzik: i'll write you an RPC for that :p
1359 2013-08-28 18:04:21 <michagogo> ...or just use https://gist.github.com/dooglus/5002764
1360 2013-08-28 18:04:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes
1361 2013-08-28 18:04:33 <sipa> since 0.8.1 afaik
1362 2013-08-28 18:04:37 <gmaxwell> But yea, grabbing the linearized tool is good.
1363 2013-08-28 18:04:43 <jgarzik> meh, an RPC should not dump a 8GB file
1364 2013-08-28 18:04:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: my memory seems to stink these days.
1365 2013-08-28 18:04:49 <jgarzik> that is more for a tool
1366 2013-08-28 18:04:53 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: rpc would give you a byte offset to stop at.
1367 2013-08-28 18:05:09 <sipa> jgarzik: it can spawn a background thread to build the file
1368 2013-08-28 18:05:15 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, too hacky.  I still don't like to depend on a fresh download.
1369 2013-08-28 18:05:22 <jgarzik> that's annoying for… me
1370 2013-08-28 18:05:28 <jgarzik> and easy to write a smarter tool
1371 2013-08-28 18:05:41 <michagogo> (what's wrong with https://gist.github.com/dooglus/5002764 ?)
1372 2013-08-28 18:05:45 OrezLangis has joined
1373 2013-08-28 18:05:50 <jgarzik> sipa, I don't like RPCs that write to the local filesystem
1374 2013-08-28 18:05:53 <gmaxwell> hopefully headers first mostly obsoletes this. :P
1375 2013-08-28 18:06:17 <michagogo> jgarzik: That's any of several wallet RPCc...
1376 2013-08-28 18:06:20 <michagogo> RPCs*
1377 2013-08-28 18:06:31 <jgarzik> michagogo, I mean directly, like the wallet backup RPC
1378 2013-08-28 18:06:35 <jgarzik> michagogo, indirect is fine
1379 2013-08-28 18:06:35 abrkn\ has joined
1380 2013-08-28 18:06:59 <jgarzik> modifying the wallet through abstract RPC interface is the purpose of the wallet RPCs
1381 2013-08-28 18:07:21 <jgarzik> interacting directly with the local filesystem breaks the nice json-rpc api abstraction / illusion
1382 2013-08-28 18:07:47 <michagogo> (do people have some kind of script that drops messages that contain a string that's part of https://gist.github.com/dooglus/5002764 ?)
1383 2013-08-28 18:07:54 <jgarzik> OTOH, an http rest "GET /rest/block/all-through-25000" that returns an 8GB bytestream would be OK
1384 2013-08-28 18:07:57 <jgarzik> rather than a tool
1385 2013-08-28 18:08:16 <sipa> michagogo: didn't know about it, but i'm very unfamiliar with the armory codebase
1386 2013-08-28 18:08:34 * jgarzik switches topics
1387 2013-08-28 18:08:47 <michagogo> sipa: Well, if it works... :-P
1388 2013-08-28 18:08:56 <jgarzik> our signmessage/verifymessage stuff should handle the multibit "BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE" PGP-like wrapper
1389 2013-08-28 18:09:01 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1390 2013-08-28 18:09:13 <sipa> also, a 10-line python script could call getblock <hash> false repeatedly, convert the hex to binary, and prepend the 8-byte header to each
1391 2013-08-28 18:09:37 <jgarzik> sipa, that's a reasonable solution, if annoyingly slow
1392 2013-08-28 18:09:59 <michagogo> (also, getblock <hash> false gives an error)
1393 2013-08-28 18:09:59 <sipa> it'll be faster than doing a reload from network + cat blk*.dat :D
1394 2013-08-28 18:10:09 <jgarzik> sipa, would need to get an in-order list of block hashes somehow
1395 2013-08-28 18:10:22 <gmaxwell> getblockhash
1396 2013-08-28 18:10:22 <jgarzik> sipa, requires a reverse-traverse, I think
1397 2013-08-28 18:10:31 stevei has joined
1398 2013-08-28 18:10:38 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, sure?
1399 2013-08-28 18:10:48 <sipa> well, no
1400 2013-08-28 18:10:58 <jgarzik> no, gmaxwell is right
1401 2013-08-28 18:10:59 <sipa> just iterate 0 to N, getblock $(getblockhash N)
1402 2013-08-28 18:11:02 <jgarzik> yes
1403 2013-08-28 18:11:09 <sipa> anyway
1404 2013-08-28 18:11:18 <sipa> my memory fails me, as getblock X false doesn't seem to exist
1405 2013-08-28 18:11:32 <michagogo> Maybe it does in HEAD? Idk
1406 2013-08-28 18:11:43 <jgarzik> sipa, we had this discussion last week, where I thought get-hex-encoded-raw-block did not exist, and you showed that it did
1407 2013-08-28 18:11:47 <jgarzik> so it's there, somewhere ;p
1408 2013-08-28 18:12:13 <sipa> seems it was added in head, indeed
1409 2013-08-28 18:12:26 <sipa> apparently i had 0.8.something checked out
1410 2013-08-28 18:13:06 <michagogo> Have any gitian builders not built 0.8.4rc2 yet?
1411 2013-08-28 18:13:36 <sipa> yes yes me
1412 2013-08-28 18:13:44 <michagogo> If so, do they want to? (I set up an IFTTT recipe to email me when there's a new commit on gitian.sigs)
1413 2013-08-28 18:13:52 abrkn\ has quit ()
1414 2013-08-28 18:13:55 <michagogo> (since I couldn't find an RSS feed for bitcoin tags)
1415 2013-08-28 18:16:09 Gues_____ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1416 2013-08-28 18:16:28 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1417 2013-08-28 18:16:43 <michagogo> (and if a new release is tagged when my computer is off, I'd like to know in advance of booting because I need to boot into my Ubuntu external HD)
1418 2013-08-28 18:17:03 Guest___ has joined
1419 2013-08-28 18:17:30 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1420 2013-08-28 18:18:37 Guest___ has joined
1421 2013-08-28 18:18:41 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1422 2013-08-28 18:19:13 Guest___ has joined
1423 2013-08-28 18:19:15 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1424 2013-08-28 18:19:36 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1425 2013-08-28 18:19:47 Guest___ has joined
1426 2013-08-28 18:19:49 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1427 2013-08-28 18:20:20 Guest___ has joined
1428 2013-08-28 18:20:25 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1429 2013-08-28 18:20:48 jcorgan has joined
1430 2013-08-28 18:23:43 Guest___ has joined
1431 2013-08-28 18:23:47 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1432 2013-08-28 18:23:54 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1433 2013-08-28 18:24:19 Guest___ has joined
1434 2013-08-28 18:24:21 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1435 2013-08-28 18:25:29 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1436 2013-08-28 18:25:34 <jgarzik> wallet question,
1437 2013-08-28 18:25:39 <jgarzik> keypool reserve 94
1438 2013-08-28 18:25:42 <jgarzik> keypool return 94
1439 2013-08-28 18:25:53 <jgarzik> does that mean the reservekey was returned unused?
1440 2013-08-28 18:26:06 jicksta has joined
1441 2013-08-28 18:26:33 Guest___ has joined
1442 2013-08-28 18:26:35 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1443 2013-08-28 18:27:07 Guest___ has joined
1444 2013-08-28 18:27:09 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1445 2013-08-28 18:29:19 execut3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1446 2013-08-28 18:29:48 FabianB has joined
1447 2013-08-28 18:30:00 OrezLangis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1448 2013-08-28 18:30:31 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1449 2013-08-28 18:30:47 Guest___ has joined
1450 2013-08-28 18:30:51 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1451 2013-08-28 18:31:13 mrkent has joined
1452 2013-08-28 18:31:13 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
1453 2013-08-28 18:31:13 mrkent has joined
1454 2013-08-28 18:31:21 Guest___ has joined
1455 2013-08-28 18:31:26 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1456 2013-08-28 18:33:04 Guest___ has joined
1457 2013-08-28 18:33:05 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1458 2013-08-28 18:34:05 Guest___ has joined
1459 2013-08-28 18:34:20 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1460 2013-08-28 18:34:25 paracyst has joined
1461 2013-08-28 18:34:52 Guest___ has joined
1462 2013-08-28 18:34:56 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1463 2013-08-28 18:35:00 ThomasV has joined
1464 2013-08-28 18:35:22 owowo has joined
1465 2013-08-28 18:35:39 <sipa> jgarzik: yes
1466 2013-08-28 18:35:59 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1467 2013-08-28 18:40:06 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
1468 2013-08-28 18:40:57 normanrichards has joined
1469 2013-08-28 18:43:31 <sipa> jgarzik: you'll need to call Keep or something like that on the reservekey
1470 2013-08-28 18:43:37 <sipa> otherwise it's returned at destruct
1471 2013-08-28 18:43:50 execut3 has joined
1472 2013-08-28 18:45:13 chorao2 has joined
1473 2013-08-28 18:45:38 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1474 2013-08-28 18:46:09 viperhr has joined
1475 2013-08-28 18:46:31 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'll bet you you could do a quick bootstrap.dat creator with bitcoin-pythonlib now that I've added RPC support...
1476 2013-08-28 18:46:44 <petertodd> jarzik: Specifically my pythonize branch
1477 2013-08-28 18:48:33 <michagogo> Has anyone here *tried* https://gist.github.com/dooglus/5002764 ?
1478 2013-08-28 18:48:53 tsst has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1479 2013-08-28 18:48:58 <petertodd> jgarzik: If I'm not mistaken it'll be a one-line bit of code: for i in range(proxy.getblockcount()): blk = proxy.getblock(proxy.getblockhash(i)); write(sys.stdout, blk.serialize())
1480 2013-08-28 18:49:14 <jgarzik> petertodd, the rpc pull got merged
1481 2013-08-28 18:49:43 <petertodd> jgarzik: I noticed, though it's only in 'pythonize' that conversion to/from json is done automatically.
1482 2013-08-28 18:49:55 <sipa> petertodd: you need 8-byte headers (magic + length marker) in front of each block
1483 2013-08-28 18:49:57 asuk has joined
1484 2013-08-28 18:50:05 reneg_ has joined
1485 2013-08-28 18:50:11 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1486 2013-08-28 18:50:13 aa has joined
1487 2013-08-28 18:50:14 <petertodd> sipa: ok, one slightly longer line :P
1488 2013-08-28 18:50:36 aa is now known as Guest31372
1489 2013-08-28 18:50:54 <petertodd> sipa: length market is a varint right?
1490 2013-08-28 18:51:04 <sipa> nope, little-endian 32-bit int
1491 2013-08-28 18:51:12 <petertodd> oh! damn you satoshi
1492 2013-08-28 18:51:31 Guest31372 is now known as MobiusL
1493 2013-08-28 18:51:35 <sipa> Consistency was his middle name.
1494 2013-08-28 18:51:43 <sipa> He changed his name, though.
1495 2013-08-28 18:51:50 <petertodd> lol
1496 2013-08-28 18:52:12 <petertodd> Consistency was his middle name; problem was his name was a pseudonym.
1497 2013-08-28 18:55:14 * jgarzik was pondering sticking the linearize tool in bitcoin.git/contrib somewhere.
1498 2013-08-28 18:55:39 * petertodd is writing make-bootstrap.py
1499 2013-08-28 18:56:03 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
1500 2013-08-28 18:56:05 <petertodd> sipa: magic is the netmagic right?
1501 2013-08-28 18:56:20 shesek has joined
1502 2013-08-28 18:56:32 * michagogo greets shesek
1503 2013-08-28 18:56:39 <jgarzik> petertodd, yes
1504 2013-08-28 18:56:54 * michagogo offers shesek a loquat
1505 2013-08-28 18:56:58 <jgarzik> petertodd, for bitcoin.git/contrib, I would just re-use BitcoinRPC from pyminer/pyminer, eliminating any dependencies
1506 2013-08-28 18:57:02 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1507 2013-08-28 18:57:06 <shesek> hey michael
1508 2013-08-28 18:57:11 <michagogo> Micha*
1509 2013-08-28 18:57:12 <sipa> petertodd: yup
1510 2013-08-28 18:57:23 <michagogo> It's not short for Michael.
1511 2013-08-28 18:57:42 abrkn has joined
1512 2013-08-28 18:57:44 Gues_____ has joined
1513 2013-08-28 18:57:57 bmcgee has joined
1514 2013-08-28 18:58:08 <jgarzik> petertodd, PS. The answer to your question could have also been discovered by reading pynode.git/mkbootstrap.py
1515 2013-08-28 18:58:17 <jgarzik> petertodd, You're not recreating that from scratch are you?
1516 2013-08-28 18:58:30 * sipa guesses: he is
1517 2013-08-28 18:58:41 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'm recreating one using RPC calls because it's just a few lines of code.
1518 2013-08-28 18:58:49 <petertodd> jgarzik: Nice test to see that the API's make sense.
1519 2013-08-28 18:58:54 Application has joined
1520 2013-08-28 19:01:14 btcbtc has joined
1521 2013-08-28 19:01:24 Gues_____ has quit (Client Quit)
1522 2013-08-28 19:01:45 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1523 2013-08-28 19:02:05 <michagogo> ...once the blk*.dats finish copying (about 8 MB/sec) I can make the dat for you
1524 2013-08-28 19:06:02 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1525 2013-08-28 19:06:11 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1526 2013-08-28 19:07:26 Application has joined
1527 2013-08-28 19:09:29 robocoin1 has joined
1528 2013-08-28 19:09:58 robocoin_afk has joined
1529 2013-08-28 19:10:08 daybyter has joined
1530 2013-08-28 19:10:10 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1531 2013-08-28 19:11:52 Anduck has joined
1532 2013-08-28 19:12:12 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1533 2013-08-28 19:13:08 robocoin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1534 2013-08-28 19:16:21 <petertodd> jgarzik, sipa: Done. Added a KB/s measurement, and it's about ~200KB/s to get the block from RPC, deserialize, reserialize, and write to disk. Seems to get faster as per-block size increases; RPC latency is probably a big factor at small block sizes.
1535 2013-08-28 19:16:49 <sipa> makes sense
1536 2013-08-28 19:17:47 <petertodd> A good test would be to make it retrieve blocks over the P2P protocol when I get around to pythonizing those classes.
1537 2013-08-28 19:17:50 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1538 2013-08-28 19:21:39 <gmaxwell> ::facepalm:: http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4140561&cid=44698527
1539 2013-08-28 19:22:21 <Ry4an> gmaxwell: https://twitter.com/AvoidComments
1540 2013-08-28 19:23:21 <petertodd> Ry4an: in this case the comment got it right
1541 2013-08-28 19:23:49 <Ry4an> petertodd: the item itself was a comment,  I assume you're saying the comment on that comment got it right.
1542 2013-08-28 19:24:11 <Ry4an> I was advising never reading the comments in general, which would have saved him seeing the zerocoin reference at all :)
1543 2013-08-28 19:24:12 <petertodd> Ry4an: woah dude
1544 2013-08-28 19:24:29 * petertodd takes another hit
1545 2013-08-28 19:25:24 <gmaxwell> It's harmless in any case.
1546 2013-08-28 19:25:48 <gmaxwell> But the reliability in the internet making derpy comments is amusing.
1547 2013-08-28 19:27:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: What I want to know is how the media suddenly ran a bunch of similar stories right when you start the CoinJoin bounty.
1548 2013-08-28 19:27:58 <Cusipzzz> gmaxwell is deep throat :)
1549 2013-08-28 19:28:00 <maaku> message signing currently works only with version=1 addresses, correct?
1550 2013-08-28 19:28:52 <petertodd> maaku: Correct
1551 2013-08-28 19:29:01 <petertodd> maaku: ...and we should change that
1552 2013-08-28 19:29:24 <michagogo> ;;google bitcoin address versions
1553 2013-08-28 19:29:25 <gribble> Technical background of version 1 Bitcoin addresses - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses>; Address - Bitcoin: <https://bitcoin.it/wiki/Address>; List of address prefixes - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes>
1554 2013-08-28 19:30:59 <petertodd> michagogo: The interesting thing would be to have a more general message signing method, where you provide a scriptSig that signs a completely invalid transaction (for backwards compatibility) that commits to the hash of the message.
1555 2013-08-28 19:31:56 <maaku> 'invalid transaction'? why not just message + scriptPubKey
1556 2013-08-28 19:32:10 <petertodd> maaku: For compatibility with hardware wallets.
1557 2013-08-28 19:32:32 BTCOxygen has joined
1558 2013-08-28 19:32:37 <petertodd> maaku: Make it invalid by setting txin[0].outpoint.hash = 0 for instance
1559 2013-08-28 19:32:39 <maaku> meh, it'd need a firmware update anyway
1560 2013-08-28 19:33:09 <Ry4an> are you breaking my trezor before I even get it?!  :)
1561 2013-08-28 19:33:13 <petertodd> maaku: You'd be surprised... I'll bet you most of those wallets would be willing to sign such a txout.
1562 2013-08-28 19:33:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you put the message you're signing in the outpoint hash prefaced with 256 bits of zeros.
1563 2013-08-28 19:33:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: hm one problem is that they're checking values to prevent fee burning.
1564 2013-08-28 19:34:01 <gmaxwell> so actually the vins are likely problematic.
1565 2013-08-28 19:34:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Damn, good point.
1566 2013-08-28 19:34:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Might need firmware support after all. :(
1567 2013-08-28 19:34:31 <michagogo> What does "version 1 address" mean?
1568 2013-08-28 19:34:55 <maaku> michagogo: read up on address format
1569 2013-08-28 19:35:04 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: old addresses, the ones that start with a 1
1570 2013-08-28 19:35:07 <gmaxwell> Anyone know if you can use armory to sign multisig escrow transactions?
1571 2013-08-28 19:35:18 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: ...there are new addresses? o_O
1572 2013-08-28 19:35:22 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1573 2013-08-28 19:35:25 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: for months now
1574 2013-08-28 19:35:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Natively, no, but apparently most of the code is written under the hood.
1575 2013-08-28 19:35:36 <michagogo> What do they look like?
1576 2013-08-28 19:35:46 <maaku> michagogo: they start with a 3
1577 2013-08-28 19:35:57 <michagogo> Wait, I thought those are multisig addresses
1578 2013-08-28 19:36:03 <maaku> ...
1579 2013-08-28 19:36:13 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: no, they're generic
1580 2013-08-28 19:36:22 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: multisig is just one possibility
1581 2013-08-28 19:36:23 <petertodd> anyway, bbl
1582 2013-08-28 19:36:27 <michagogo> Ah, I see.
1583 2013-08-28 19:36:30 <michagogo> Didn't know that.
1584 2013-08-28 19:36:38 <Luke-Jr> it could just as well be a puzzle
1585 2013-08-28 19:36:52 <michagogo> What is it actually?
1586 2013-08-28 19:37:11 <maaku> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0016
1587 2013-08-28 19:37:28 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: a hash of a Script
1588 2013-08-28 19:37:32 <michagogo> Ah.
1589 2013-08-28 19:39:25 <michagogo> "Transactions that redeem these pay-to-script outpoints are only considered standard if the serialized script is, itself, one of the other standard transaction types."
1590 2013-08-28 19:39:40 <michagogo> So you can create a p2sh address that's standard to send to, but non-standard to spend from?
1591 2013-08-28 19:40:54 <gmaxwell> michagogo: yep.
1592 2013-08-28 19:40:58 <gmaxwell> "Don't do that!"
1593 2013-08-28 19:41:24 <gmaxwell> but it's not really so different from 1xx ... you can create an address you can spend to but is computationally impossible to spend from.
1594 2013-08-28 19:42:07 <michagogo> Interesting -- so you could create an address, give it out, and then challenge people to get the script
1595 2013-08-28 19:42:08 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1596 2013-08-28 19:42:28 <michagogo> So like the bitcoinriddle.com thing
1597 2013-08-28 19:42:56 <michagogo> Except that it would be "piece together this script" rather than "piece together this WIF privkey"
1598 2013-08-28 19:43:16 Coincidental has joined
1599 2013-08-28 19:43:24 sserrano44 has joined
1600 2013-08-28 19:44:41 stephantual has joined
1601 2013-08-28 19:45:31 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: err, you'd have to share the Script at least :p
1602 2013-08-28 19:45:52 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Hmm?
1603 2013-08-28 19:46:00 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: bruteforcing SHA256 isn't fun
1604 2013-08-28 19:46:12 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Have you seen bitcoinriddle.com?
1605 2013-08-28 19:46:16 <Luke-Jr> nope
1606 2013-08-28 19:46:24 <michagogo> (he hasn't done one in a while)
1607 2013-08-28 19:46:37 <michagogo> Basically, it's various riddle/puzzle things
1608 2013-08-28 19:46:41 <michagogo> Leading into one another
1609 2013-08-28 19:46:51 <gmaxwell> Script isn't zero knoweldge, so a miner can recover your riddles checked by sha256.
1610 2013-08-28 19:47:04 <michagogo> With each piece, you get some characters of a WIF privkey
1611 2013-08-28 19:47:06 winbtc_moarrr has joined
1612 2013-08-28 19:47:30 <michagogo> And then you put them together to get the privkey you can sweep
1613 2013-08-28 19:48:06 digitalmagus2 has joined
1614 2013-08-28 19:48:08 <michagogo> So unless I misunderstand, you could do something similar, but with pieces of script instead
1615 2013-08-28 19:48:11 <michagogo> Right?
1616 2013-08-28 19:48:37 <gmaxwell> yes, if you don't mind other nodes on the network stealing the prize.
1617 2013-08-28 19:48:40 winbtc_moarrr has quit ()
1618 2013-08-28 19:49:10 <michagogo> Oh.
1619 2013-08-28 19:49:11 <michagogo> Right.
1620 2013-08-28 19:49:45 <michagogo> (are there nodes on the network that watch for redirectable transactions?)
1621 2013-08-28 19:50:10 <gmaxwell> I think not currently.
1622 2013-08-28 19:50:11 <Luke-Jr> I should set one up.
1623 2013-08-28 19:50:15 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1624 2013-08-28 19:50:36 <gmaxwell> this is probably a case where having one going would be protective...
1625 2013-08-28 19:50:42 <michagogo> Hmm?
1626 2013-08-28 19:51:04 <michagogo> How do you mean?
1627 2013-08-28 19:51:08 <gmaxwell> Discourage people from depending on something so fragile for real value by making the best case the same as the worst case.
1628 2013-08-28 19:51:11 <Luke-Jr> some day, maybe I'll try to write a real solver for solvable scripts
1629 2013-08-28 19:51:46 <Luke-Jr> but this case is easier
1630 2013-08-28 19:51:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: a simple test of "are there any checksigs? oh .. no? replace the output with a single OP_RETURN value 0"
1631 2013-08-28 19:52:00 <gmaxwell> and you just leave the scriptsig alone.
1632 2013-08-28 19:52:04 <michagogo> the best case the same as the worst case?
1633 2013-08-28 19:52:13 <longcat> the "I only have luke-jr on ignore?"
1634 2013-08-28 19:52:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: or output to myself
1635 2013-08-28 19:52:30 <michagogo> The best case is that the transaction goes through and gets mined in its original form, isn't it?
1636 2013-08-28 19:52:37 <gmaxwell> michagogo: in the best case you do your little sha256 thing and no one steals it, the worst case is that nodes steal it.
1637 2013-08-28 19:52:54 <gmaxwell> michagogo: we can't make the worst case any better, but we can make the best case worse (by running a stealer bot)
1638 2013-08-28 19:53:05 <michagogo> Ah.
1639 2013-08-28 19:53:07 Namworld has joined
1640 2013-08-28 19:53:36 <michagogo> But wouldn't the bot need to be fast enough, and in the right place on the network, to get its version out before the transaction goes out to miners?
1641 2013-08-28 19:53:42 <gmaxwell> Under the theory that the discrepancy is what creates risk, if 99 out of 100 times it doesn't get stolen, perhaps you'll be tempted to use it for real value.. of course thats the time it gets stolen.
1642 2013-08-28 19:54:03 <michagogo> s/goes out to/reaches most of the/
1643 2013-08-28 19:54:06 <gmaxwell> michagogo: If the bot _is_ a miner there isn't a race. But racing isn't especially hard in any case.
1644 2013-08-28 19:54:18 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: I'll run a hub noe :P
1645 2013-08-28 19:54:19 <Luke-Jr> node
1646 2013-08-28 19:54:34 <jgarzik> petertodd, nifty
1647 2013-08-28 19:55:11 robocoin_afk has quit (Quit: .)
1648 2013-08-28 19:55:53 wamatt has joined
1649 2013-08-28 19:56:28 <Luke-Jr> wow, my client just had a hard time finding a peer
1650 2013-08-28 19:56:53 <gmaxwell> uh.
1651 2013-08-28 19:56:55 <Luke-Jr> and now it's flooding it with pings? O.o
1652 2013-08-28 19:57:17 <_ingsoc> !seen td
1653 2013-08-28 19:57:17 <gribble> td was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 1 day, 3 hours, 55 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <TD> from a portability perspective it loses .... apparently building pond on a mac is a nightmare
1654 2013-08-28 19:57:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the peer is flooding you or viceversa?
1655 2013-08-28 19:57:33 robocoin1 has quit (Quit: leaving)
1656 2013-08-28 19:57:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: [ot] Thoughts on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2945  ? would you run that?
1657 2013-08-28 19:58:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I was sending the pings apparently
1658 2013-08-28 19:59:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: unsure, but maybe you should skip the coinbase
1659 2013-08-28 19:59:46 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1660 2013-08-28 19:59:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'll have to think on that more.
1661 2013-08-28 20:01:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: skip the coinbase?
1662 2013-08-28 20:01:55 <gmaxwell> oh in the fee patch? I actually add a constant value for all the non scriptsig constant overhead.
1663 2013-08-28 20:02:22 <gmaxwell> (I .. think(?) I correctly computed all of it, though it should be double checked)
1664 2013-08-28 20:02:43 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1665 2013-08-28 20:03:41 handle has joined
1666 2013-08-28 20:04:26 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1667 2013-08-28 20:05:06 <michagogo> gmaxwell: "the limit of 109 is based on the size of a P2SH redemption with a compressed public key"
1668 2013-08-28 20:05:06 <michagogo> So it's basically the smallest possible size the input could be?
1669 2013-08-28 20:05:08 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1670 2013-08-28 20:05:33 <michagogo> (so in most cases, it won't actually completely negate, but rather only reduce?)
1671 2013-08-28 20:06:27 <gmaxwell> a scriptsig for a compressed 1-type spend is ~two bytes smaller IIRC.
1672 2013-08-28 20:06:55 <gmaxwell> if you use a non-compressed key then indeed it doesn't completly negate it. ... it does reduce a it ton though.
1673 2013-08-28 20:07:36 <sipa> if you search the sig ature space log enough, you can create smaller ones with exponentially more work :D
1674 2013-08-28 20:08:06 <sipa> you should be able to reduce by 2.5 byte in a second
1675 2013-08-28 20:08:07 <gmaxwell> yea, "one argument against insiting people use determinstic dsa" :P
1676 2013-08-28 20:08:32 <michagogo> "UTXO cleaning contest: Get money from BTC foundation (and perhaps other interested parties), every UTXO destroyed which was created before some date (perhaps Aug 1st 2013) gets entered into a lottery. Big BTC payouts in the lottery to encourage people to dig up old and inactive wallets with dust."
1677 2013-08-28 20:08:32 <michagogo> Darn, I had a bunch of dust that I cleaned up a bit ago (from when I was trying out faucets, after they were only giving out 3-digit satoshi counts, and before I knew it was worse than worthless)
1678 2013-08-28 20:09:12 <gmaxwell> michagogo: there is a reason that one is last. :P it's supposted to catch all the people who won't clean up any other way!
1679 2013-08-28 20:09:39 <Luke-Jr> too bad we can't put all the dust toward the reward
1680 2013-08-28 20:10:16 digitalmagus3 has joined
1681 2013-08-28 20:11:00 Application has joined
1682 2013-08-28 20:12:36 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1683 2013-08-28 20:13:40 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1684 2013-08-28 20:13:42 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1685 2013-08-28 20:14:27 jicksta has joined
1686 2013-08-28 20:16:58 robocoin has joined
1687 2013-08-28 20:17:24 shesek has joined
1688 2013-08-28 20:18:03 jtimon has joined
1689 2013-08-28 20:18:31 freewil has joined
1690 2013-08-28 20:19:34 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1691 2013-08-28 20:25:30 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1692 2013-08-28 20:27:02 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1693 2013-08-28 20:27:24 rdponticelli has joined
1694 2013-08-28 20:28:30 _jps has joined
1695 2013-08-28 20:30:07 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1696 2013-08-28 20:30:23 bmcgee has joined
1697 2013-08-28 20:35:00 mrkent has joined
1698 2013-08-28 20:35:00 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
1699 2013-08-28 20:35:00 mrkent has joined
1700 2013-08-28 20:35:58 danda has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1701 2013-08-28 20:37:18 <michagogo> Interesting. I built and an running https://gist.github.com/dooglus/5002764 in my Ubuntu VM
1702 2013-08-28 20:37:23 <michagogo> s/an/am/
1703 2013-08-28 20:37:44 aupiff has quit (Quit: leaving)
1704 2013-08-28 20:37:46 <michagogo> I guess it's very resource-intensive -- the VM's slowed to a crawl
1705 2013-08-28 20:38:52 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1706 2013-08-28 20:39:09 handle has joined
1707 2013-08-28 20:40:46 <TheLordOfTime> michagogo, you sure it's just that program?  Ubuntu in a VM doesn't handle very well, unless you use a lighter DE for it (like XFCE or LXDE)
1708 2013-08-28 20:41:24 <michagogo> It doesn't run as well as it does natively, but it's never this sluggish
1709 2013-08-28 20:41:47 danda has joined
1710 2013-08-28 20:42:06 Squidicuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1711 2013-08-28 20:42:33 Squidicuz has joined
1712 2013-08-28 20:43:31 asuk has quit (Quit: asuk)
1713 2013-08-28 20:45:01 cads has joined
1714 2013-08-28 20:46:22 mrkent has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1715 2013-08-28 20:46:37 <michagogo> my bootstrap.dat through 250000 is up to 7738173805 bytes and counting
1716 2013-08-28 20:46:44 ThomasV has joined
1717 2013-08-28 20:47:22 <longcat> what the hell is there is no form address?
1718 2013-08-28 20:47:27 <longcat> ...from
1719 2013-08-28 20:48:31 <michagogo> longcat: ...what?
1720 2013-08-28 20:49:12 <michagogo> 8423227213: officially into new blocks (compared to the last bootstrap)
1721 2013-08-28 20:49:23 santoscork has joined
1722 2013-08-28 20:49:27 asuk has joined
1723 2013-08-28 20:49:41 mrkent has joined
1724 2013-08-28 20:49:46 <michagogo> jgarzik: The 250k bootstrap.dat should be ready shortly.
1725 2013-08-28 20:51:16 talso has joined
1726 2013-08-28 20:52:36 <sipa> longcat: bitcoin transactions do not have a from address
1727 2013-08-28 20:52:45 <sipa> longcat: we put it there because way too many people ask about it
1728 2013-08-28 20:53:11 <longcat> how ironic
1729 2013-08-28 20:53:30 <sipa> ?
1730 2013-08-28 20:53:45 <longcat> trying to prevent people from asking it has brought the same question
1731 2013-08-28 20:53:51 <sipa> ah!
1732 2013-08-28 20:54:03 <sipa> nobody reads the topic anyway, usually :p
1733 2013-08-28 20:55:01 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1734 2013-08-28 20:57:01 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1735 2013-08-28 20:59:14 rdymac has joined
1736 2013-08-28 21:01:12 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1737 2013-08-28 21:02:13 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1738 2013-08-28 21:02:22 chorao2 has left ()
1739 2013-08-28 21:02:37 chorao has joined
1740 2013-08-28 21:03:03 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1741 2013-08-28 21:04:15 _jps has quit (Quit: _jps)
1742 2013-08-28 21:05:06 debiantoruser has joined
1743 2013-08-28 21:07:47 Application has joined
1744 2013-08-28 21:08:52 stevedekorte has joined
1745 2013-08-28 21:09:57 cap2002 has joined
1746 2013-08-28 21:13:00 yubrew has joined
1747 2013-08-28 21:16:51 bmcgee has joined
1748 2013-08-28 21:17:25 bmcgee has quit (Client Quit)
1749 2013-08-28 21:17:26 Goonie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1750 2013-08-28 21:17:59 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1751 2013-08-28 21:21:17 AusBitBank_ has joined
1752 2013-08-28 21:21:44 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1753 2013-08-28 21:21:49 handle_ has joined
1754 2013-08-28 21:22:27 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1755 2013-08-28 21:22:44 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1756 2013-08-28 21:22:51 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1757 2013-08-28 21:23:11 <michagogo> jgarzik: Still around?
1758 2013-08-28 21:23:21 <jgarzik> michagogo, da
1759 2013-08-28 21:23:26 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1760 2013-08-28 21:23:26 PrimeStunna_ has joined
1761 2013-08-28 21:23:47 <michagogo> jgarzik: I think I have a completed bootstrap.dat up through 250k, want to take a look?
1762 2013-08-28 21:24:17 <michagogo> It's 9826691453 bytes
1763 2013-08-28 21:24:30 jcorgan has joined
1764 2013-08-28 21:25:50 cads has joined
1765 2013-08-28 21:26:06 PrimeStunna has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1766 2013-08-28 21:26:06 PrimeStunna_ is now known as PrimeStunna
1767 2013-08-28 21:26:56 <michagogo> lol
1768 2013-08-28 21:27:18 <michagogo> "Performance alert: High Disk usage by: Oracle Virtualbox VM Manager"
1769 2013-08-28 21:27:33 <michagogo> No shit, it's copying a 9826691453 byte file.
1770 2013-08-28 21:27:53 <michagogo> ;;list
1771 2013-08-28 21:27:54 <gribble> Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AutoMode, BadWords, BitcoinData, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Debug, Dict, Dunno, Factoids, Filter, Format, GPG, Games, Gatekeeper, Google, Internet, Later, Market, Math, MessageParser, Misc, Network, OTCOrderBook, Owner, Plugin, RSS, RatingSystem, Reply, Scheduler, Seen, Services, Status, String, Time, Topic, URL, Unix, User, (1 more message)
1772 2013-08-28 21:27:58 Anduckkk has joined
1773 2013-08-28 21:28:03 <michagogo> ;;list math
1774 2013-08-28 21:28:03 <gribble> base, calc, convert, icalc, rpn, and units
1775 2013-08-28 21:28:09 <michagogo> ;;help math units
1776 2013-08-28 21:28:09 <gribble> (math units [<type>]) -- With no arguments, returns a list of measurement types, which can be passed as arguments. When called with a type as an argument, returns the units of that type.
1777 2013-08-28 21:28:16 <michagogo> ;;help math convert
1778 2013-08-28 21:28:17 <gribble> (math convert [<number>] <unit> to <other unit>) -- Converts from <unit> to <other unit>. If number isn't given, it defaults to 1. For unit information, see 'units' command.
1779 2013-08-28 21:28:28 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1780 2013-08-28 21:28:29 <michagogo> ;;math convert 9826691453 bytes to gigabytes
1781 2013-08-28 21:28:29 <gribble> 9.15181958396
1782 2013-08-28 21:28:45 <michagogo> ;;math convert 9826691453 bytes to kilobytes
1783 2013-08-28 21:28:45 <gribble> 9596378.37207
1784 2013-08-28 21:29:44 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1785 2013-08-28 21:32:01 jcorgan has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1786 2013-08-28 21:33:33 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1787 2013-08-28 21:34:43 AusBitBank_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1788 2013-08-28 21:35:01 <jgarzik> A basis for discussion: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1#SIN_record
1789 2013-08-28 21:36:27 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1790 2013-08-28 21:37:42 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1791 2013-08-28 21:37:55 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1792 2013-08-28 21:38:12 AusBitBank_ has joined
1793 2013-08-28 21:38:33 darkee has joined
1794 2013-08-28 21:38:41 jicksta has joined
1795 2013-08-28 21:39:33 OldEnK has joined
1796 2013-08-28 21:40:24 jicksta has quit (Client Quit)
1797 2013-08-28 21:41:03 jicksta has joined
1798 2013-08-28 21:42:35 <gmaxwell> so... with people getting burned with high fees on raw transactions, would there be any objection to making sendrawtransaction default to refuse to send if the fee is over some sanity check level, unless you give it an extra <true> for a force argument?
1799 2013-08-28 21:42:59 <michagogo> Maybe also make this behavior a .conf/command-line option?
1800 2013-08-28 21:43:05 <gmaxwell> bleh.
1801 2013-08-28 21:43:10 <gmaxwell> more code to test.
1802 2013-08-28 21:43:17 asuk has quit (Quit: asuk)
1803 2013-08-28 21:43:27 <gmaxwell> I'd just make it some large multiple of the configured relay fee.
1804 2013-08-28 21:43:49 jicksta has quit (Client Quit)
1805 2013-08-28 21:44:15 <michagogo> At least have it be disabled on testnet.
1806 2013-08-28 21:45:03 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1807 2013-08-28 21:45:30 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1808 2013-08-28 21:47:14 rdymac has joined
1809 2013-08-28 21:47:58 <helo> higher than the block reward?
1810 2013-08-28 21:49:16 <helo> err yeah what gm said :)
1811 2013-08-28 21:49:20 <michagogo> jgarzik: ping
1812 2013-08-28 21:49:26 <gmaxwell> I was thinking of > 100 * basefee * max(1,size in kb)  e.g. higher than 1 BTC for a 100kb transaction.
1813 2013-08-28 21:49:41 <michagogo> jgarzik: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6FCD635F402E26A3F3259E3FBB3D6513EBCAAC6B&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3a80%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.publicbt.com%3a80%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.istole.it%3a80%2fannounce
1814 2013-08-28 21:49:58 <gmaxwell> helo: but maybe 1000 would be better than 100.
1815 2013-08-28 21:50:06 <jgarzik> michagogo, will take a look
1816 2013-08-28 21:50:21 <jgarzik> michagogo, usually we want to get multiple people confirming the sha256 hash of the bootstrap.dat generated
1817 2013-08-28 21:50:23 <michagogo> (if you prefer the .torrent, let me know)
1818 2013-08-28 21:50:56 <michagogo> Ah, okay
1819 2013-08-28 21:51:55 sserrano44 has joined
1820 2013-08-28 21:52:48 Nesetalis has joined
1821 2013-08-28 21:53:12 Neskia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1822 2013-08-28 21:53:15 <michagogo> jgarzik: (I don't see any peers yet...)
1823 2013-08-28 21:53:25 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1824 2013-08-28 21:53:30 <michagogo> I have 345701E7226D0AD1B75C1D1D43E89D00C867259F0C432B1CED3D37F767440E53.
1825 2013-08-28 21:54:30 jicksta has joined
1826 2013-08-28 21:56:36 nsillik has joined
1827 2013-08-28 21:56:54 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1828 2013-08-28 21:58:14 Coincidental has joined
1829 2013-08-28 21:58:19 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1830 2013-08-28 22:00:13 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1831 2013-08-28 22:00:18 ahmed_mobile1 has joined
1832 2013-08-28 22:00:44 AusBitBank__ has joined
1833 2013-08-28 22:00:44 <michagogo> If anyone wants to take a look at my bootstrap.dat@250000, the torrent is at https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9oasejq6wlu52z/bootstrap.dat.torrent or magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6FCD635F402E26A3F3259E3FBB3D6513EBCAAC6B&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3a80%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.publicbt.com%3a80%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.istole.it%3a80%2fannounce
1834 2013-08-28 22:00:50 AusBitBank_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1835 2013-08-28 22:00:56 <ahmed_mobile1> hey guys
1836 2013-08-28 22:01:14 <michagogo> I'll leave my computer on overnight so it can be gotten.
1837 2013-08-28 22:01:18 <ahmed_mobile1> is there anyone here who knows quite a bit about the internal workings of pushpool?
1838 2013-08-28 22:01:24 gavinandresen has joined
1839 2013-08-28 22:01:29 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
1840 2013-08-28 22:01:29 gavinandresen has joined
1841 2013-08-28 22:02:05 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1842 2013-08-28 22:02:51 reneg has joined
1843 2013-08-28 22:03:04 gavinandresen has joined
1844 2013-08-28 22:03:04 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
1845 2013-08-28 22:03:04 gavinandresen has joined
1846 2013-08-28 22:03:46 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1847 2013-08-28 22:04:20 Gues_____ has joined
1848 2013-08-28 22:04:39 gavinandresen has joined
1849 2013-08-28 22:05:20 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1850 2013-08-28 22:05:56 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1851 2013-08-28 22:06:09 gavinandresen has joined
1852 2013-08-28 22:06:52 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1853 2013-08-28 22:07:30 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1854 2013-08-28 22:08:02 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
1855 2013-08-28 22:08:04 gavinandresen has joined
1856 2013-08-28 22:08:20 bizoro has joined
1857 2013-08-28 22:08:44 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1858 2013-08-28 22:08:53 AusBitBank__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1859 2013-08-28 22:09:29 Gues_____ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1860 2013-08-28 22:09:39 gavinandresen has joined
1861 2013-08-28 22:10:16 Thepok has joined
1862 2013-08-28 22:10:21 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1863 2013-08-28 22:10:24 AusBitBank__ has joined
1864 2013-08-28 22:11:33 gavinandresen has joined
1865 2013-08-28 22:12:13 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1866 2013-08-28 22:13:03 gavinandresen has joined
1867 2013-08-28 22:13:46 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1868 2013-08-28 22:14:17 <michagogo> jgarzik: Hmm, wait, a second tool says it's d066814010e2f9717f36cbf8dcf9be70c372ef3956ea51fe4094e480048fa914
1869 2013-08-28 22:14:25 AusBitBank__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1870 2013-08-28 22:14:27 Guest___ has joined
1871 2013-08-28 22:14:39 <jgarzik> michagogo, this is why we verify :)
1872 2013-08-28 22:14:44 AusBitBank__ has joined
1873 2013-08-28 22:14:46 <michagogo> lol
1874 2013-08-28 22:14:52 <michagogo> One sec, checking with a 3rd
1875 2013-08-28 22:14:57 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
1876 2013-08-28 22:14:58 gavinandresen has joined
1877 2013-08-28 22:15:12 CodeShark has joined
1878 2013-08-28 22:15:15 <jgarzik> PS. I cannot look at this for another ~3-4 hours
1879 2013-08-28 22:15:16 Transisto has quit ()
1880 2013-08-28 22:15:38 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1881 2013-08-28 22:15:57 <michagogo> Are you able to at least start the download ~now?
1882 2013-08-28 22:16:19 <michagogo> I may need to take my computer offline in about 6-7 hours
1883 2013-08-28 22:16:24 execut3 has joined
1884 2013-08-28 22:16:36 Gues_____ has joined
1885 2013-08-28 22:16:40 <michagogo> (it's 1:15 am and I'll need to take it with me in the morning)
1886 2013-08-28 22:16:48 gavinandresen has joined
1887 2013-08-28 22:17:30 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1888 2013-08-28 22:17:34 Gues_____ has quit (Client Quit)
1889 2013-08-28 22:17:55 <jgarzik> michagogo, I'm going to generate my own version, independently, to verify
1890 2013-08-28 22:18:15 Gues_____ has joined
1891 2013-08-28 22:18:16 Gues_____ has quit (Client Quit)
1892 2013-08-28 22:18:23 gavinandresen has joined
1893 2013-08-28 22:18:29 <michagogo> And it does look like d066814010e2f9717f36cbf8dcf9be70c372ef3956ea51fe4094e480048fa914 is right
1894 2013-08-28 22:18:36 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1895 2013-08-28 22:18:42 <michagogo> (not sure where 345701E7226D0AD1B75C1D1D43E89D00C867259F0C432B1CED3D37F767440E53 came from)
1896 2013-08-28 22:18:51 K1773R has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1897 2013-08-28 22:19:02 Gues_____ has joined
1898 2013-08-28 22:19:04 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1899 2013-08-28 22:19:13 Gues_____ has quit (Client Quit)
1900 2013-08-28 22:19:53 gavinandresen has joined
1901 2013-08-28 22:20:07 Gues_____ has joined
1902 2013-08-28 22:20:36 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1903 2013-08-28 22:21:13 <jgarzik> petertodd, OK, rewrote https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1#SIN_record
1904 2013-08-28 22:21:17 <jgarzik> to be merkle-based
1905 2013-08-28 22:21:35 c0rw1n has joined
1906 2013-08-28 22:21:48 gavinandresen has joined
1907 2013-08-28 22:22:28 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1908 2013-08-28 22:22:34 mappum has joined
1909 2013-08-28 22:23:09 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1910 2013-08-28 22:23:33 nsillik has joined
1911 2013-08-28 22:23:38 gavinandresen has joined
1912 2013-08-28 22:24:20 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1913 2013-08-28 22:24:58 K1773R has joined
1914 2013-08-28 22:25:28 gavinandresen has joined
1915 2013-08-28 22:25:44 <michagogo> jgarzik: So is there any reason for me to leave my computer on?
1916 2013-08-28 22:26:12 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1917 2013-08-28 22:26:37 rumpler has joined
1918 2013-08-28 22:27:03 gavinandresen has joined
1919 2013-08-28 22:27:29 <jgarzik> michagogo, no
1920 2013-08-28 22:27:38 AusBitBank__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1921 2013-08-28 22:27:46 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1922 2013-08-28 22:27:50 <michagogo> Okay
1923 2013-08-28 22:28:25 <rumpler> Hey guys, have there been any plans (or external projects) to restrict/limit bitcoind API calls? ie, allow a API app to do things like read addresses and create new ones, but not allow it to send any coins without additional authorization
1924 2013-08-28 22:28:38 <jgarzik> rumpler, no
1925 2013-08-28 22:28:38 gavinandresen has joined
1926 2013-08-28 22:28:43 AusBitBank__ has joined
1927 2013-08-28 22:28:52 <CodeShark> actually, I had such a project
1928 2013-08-28 22:28:59 <michagogo> (btw, not 100% sure about how torrents work in terms of uniqueness -- will the torrent I just created connect to people using a torrent you create, assuming we're both using identical files?)
1929 2013-08-28 22:29:05 <CodeShark> it really amounted to little more than a custom proxy :)
1930 2013-08-28 22:29:18 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1931 2013-08-28 22:29:19 <michagogo> (in other words, will I need to replace that torrent with one you make?)
1932 2013-08-28 22:29:20 <jgarzik> michagogo, ideally yes
1933 2013-08-28 22:29:25 <rumpler> Yeah, a proxy sounds like the "easy" way to do something like it
1934 2013-08-28 22:29:36 <jgarzik> michagogo, the infohash of the torrent is the hash of all the file hashes
1935 2013-08-28 22:29:39 <michagogo> Ideally? What are the factors?
1936 2013-08-28 22:29:39 <jgarzik> IIRC
1937 2013-08-28 22:30:06 <jgarzik> michagogo, AFAIK, if the file bits are the same, the infohash is the same, the torrent is the same
1938 2013-08-28 22:30:16 <jgarzik> but I'm not an expert
1939 2013-08-28 22:30:28 gavinandresen has joined
1940 2013-08-28 22:30:30 <rumpler> I can see it not being a bit priority for the core devs, but I can see a pretty useful project coming out of it. I'm working on an app that replies on the API to operate, but it would be easier to build trust if my app was not permitted to spend coins in any way
1941 2013-08-28 22:30:54 <jgarzik> rumpler, the general answer is "write a proxy… it's easy"
1942 2013-08-28 22:31:10 execut3 has left ()
1943 2013-08-28 22:31:11 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1944 2013-08-28 22:31:18 shesek has joined
1945 2013-08-28 22:31:19 <jgarzik> rumpler, because the general advice is not to expose the RPC interface directly to the Internet
1946 2013-08-28 22:31:51 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1947 2013-08-28 22:32:06 gavinandresen has joined
1948 2013-08-28 22:32:47 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1949 2013-08-28 22:33:01 <rumpler> Ok, well that's foor for thought, thanks guys. (If I keep any parts of my app closed-source, I'll just pair it with an OCC proxy counterpart)
1950 2013-08-28 22:33:10 <ahmed_mobile1> hey guys could someone give me some advice on pushpool?
1951 2013-08-28 22:33:36 gavinandresen has joined
1952 2013-08-28 22:33:55 awishformore has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1953 2013-08-28 22:34:00 mhanne has quit (Ping timeout: 269 seconds)
1954 2013-08-28 22:34:02 awishformore_ has joined
1955 2013-08-28 22:34:12 mhanne has joined
1956 2013-08-28 22:34:12 mhanne has quit (Changing host)
1957 2013-08-28 22:34:12 mhanne has joined
1958 2013-08-28 22:34:15 Detritus has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
1959 2013-08-28 22:34:21 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1960 2013-08-28 22:34:23 <michagogo> jgarzik: Could you, when you make the 250k "official", let me know if I need to change from https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9oasejq6wlu52z/bootstrap.dat.torrent ?
1961 2013-08-28 22:34:25 normanrichards has quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds)
1962 2013-08-28 22:34:41 Someguy123 has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds)
1963 2013-08-28 22:34:46 <ahmed_mobile1> i have a python module for the Quark Algo's used by p2pool. where would i change pushpool to use that module?
1964 2013-08-28 22:35:03 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1965 2013-08-28 22:35:10 Someguy1234 has joined
1966 2013-08-28 22:35:11 gavinandresen has joined
1967 2013-08-28 22:35:19 Someguy1234 is now known as Someguy123
1968 2013-08-28 22:35:33 AusBitBank__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1969 2013-08-28 22:35:54 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1970 2013-08-28 22:36:00 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
1971 2013-08-28 22:36:06 EmLeX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1972 2013-08-28 22:36:46 gavinandresen has joined
1973 2013-08-28 22:37:00 jicksta has joined
1974 2013-08-28 22:37:00 jicksta has quit (Client Quit)
1975 2013-08-28 22:37:26 EmLeX has joined
1976 2013-08-28 22:37:27 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1977 2013-08-28 22:37:41 jicksta has joined
1978 2013-08-28 22:37:55 sserrano44 has joined
1979 2013-08-28 22:38:38 gavinandresen has joined
1980 2013-08-28 22:38:38 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
1981 2013-08-28 22:38:38 gavinandresen has joined
1982 2013-08-28 22:39:03 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1983 2013-08-28 22:39:14 sserrano44 has quit (Client Quit)
1984 2013-08-28 22:39:18 cap2002 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1985 2013-08-28 22:39:18 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1986 2013-08-28 22:40:30 gavinandresen has joined
1987 2013-08-28 22:41:10 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1988 2013-08-28 22:42:07 gavinandresen has joined
1989 2013-08-28 22:42:33 sserrano44 has joined
1990 2013-08-28 22:42:47 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1991 2013-08-28 22:43:28 Zoop_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1992 2013-08-28 22:43:47 gavinandresen has joined
1993 2013-08-28 22:43:47 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
1994 2013-08-28 22:43:47 gavinandresen has joined
1995 2013-08-28 22:44:30 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1996 2013-08-28 22:45:42 gavinandresen has joined
1997 2013-08-28 22:46:22 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
1998 2013-08-28 22:47:32 gavinandresen has joined
1999 2013-08-28 22:48:14 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2000 2013-08-28 22:49:01 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2001 2013-08-28 22:49:07 gavinandresen has joined
2002 2013-08-28 22:49:31 Zoop_ has joined
2003 2013-08-28 22:49:51 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2004 2013-08-28 22:50:20 EmLeX has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2005 2013-08-28 22:50:42 gavinandresen has joined
2006 2013-08-28 22:51:25 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2007 2013-08-28 22:52:32 gavinandresen has joined
2008 2013-08-28 22:53:16 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2009 2013-08-28 22:53:28 EmLeX has joined
2010 2013-08-28 22:54:26 shesek has joined
2011 2013-08-28 22:54:28 gavinandresen has joined
2012 2013-08-28 22:54:57 <ahmed_mobile1> anyone?
2013 2013-08-28 22:55:08 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2014 2013-08-28 22:55:33 mappum has joined
2015 2013-08-28 22:56:18 gavinandresen has joined
2016 2013-08-28 22:56:29 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
2017 2013-08-28 22:56:29 gavinandresen has joined
2018 2013-08-28 22:57:00 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2019 2013-08-28 22:57:15 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2020 2013-08-28 22:58:08 gavinandresen has joined
2021 2013-08-28 22:58:52 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2022 2013-08-28 22:59:38 <warren> amusing branch name "fewer_fee_footguns"
2023 2013-08-28 23:00:04 gavinandresen has joined
2024 2013-08-28 23:00:44 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2025 2013-08-28 23:01:02 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026 2013-08-28 23:01:54 gavinandresen has joined
2027 2013-08-28 23:01:54 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
2028 2013-08-28 23:01:54 gavinandresen has joined
2029 2013-08-28 23:02:36 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2030 2013-08-28 23:03:44 gavinandresen has joined
2031 2013-08-28 23:04:13 Coincidental has joined
2032 2013-08-28 23:04:28 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2033 2013-08-28 23:04:40 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2034 2013-08-28 23:05:34 gavinandresen has joined
2035 2013-08-28 23:06:18 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2036 2013-08-28 23:07:11 gavinandresen has joined
2037 2013-08-28 23:07:52 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2038 2013-08-28 23:08:38 patcon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2039 2013-08-28 23:09:03 gavinandresen has joined
2040 2013-08-28 23:09:03 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
2041 2013-08-28 23:09:03 gavinandresen has joined
2042 2013-08-28 23:09:13 patcon has joined
2043 2013-08-28 23:09:43 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2044 2013-08-28 23:10:33 rumpler has left ()
2045 2013-08-28 23:10:53 gavinandresen has joined
2046 2013-08-28 23:11:36 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2047 2013-08-28 23:12:28 gavinandresen has joined
2048 2013-08-28 23:12:45 EmLeX has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2049 2013-08-28 23:13:09 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2050 2013-08-28 23:13:20 <maaku> anyone know why key.unblind(key.blind(X, factor), factor) != X in PyCrypto?
2051 2013-08-28 23:13:28 <maaku> am I misunderstanding how blinding works?
2052 2013-08-28 23:13:37 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2053 2013-08-28 23:14:00 stevedekorte has quit (Quit: stevedekorte)
2054 2013-08-28 23:14:03 gavinandresen has joined
2055 2013-08-28 23:14:44 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2056 2013-08-28 23:15:44 awishformore_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2057 2013-08-28 23:15:53 gavinandresen has joined
2058 2013-08-28 23:16:30 EmLeX has joined
2059 2013-08-28 23:16:36 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2060 2013-08-28 23:17:33 gavinandresen has joined
2061 2013-08-28 23:17:52 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2062 2013-08-28 23:18:13 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2063 2013-08-28 23:18:29 stalled has joined
2064 2013-08-28 23:18:49 reneg has joined
2065 2013-08-28 23:19:23 gavinandresen has joined
2066 2013-08-28 23:20:06 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2067 2013-08-28 23:20:12 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2068 2013-08-28 23:20:25 CryptoBuck has joined
2069 2013-08-28 23:20:56 CheckDavid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2070 2013-08-28 23:21:13 gavinandresen has joined
2071 2013-08-28 23:21:58 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2072 2013-08-28 23:22:38 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2073 2013-08-28 23:22:53 gavinandresen has joined
2074 2013-08-28 23:23:09 yubrew has joined
2075 2013-08-28 23:23:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: you're spamming the channel :)
2076 2013-08-28 23:23:35 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2077 2013-08-28 23:24:04 eian has joined
2078 2013-08-28 23:24:31 <Cusipzzz> lol +kb
2079 2013-08-28 23:24:37 <Cusipzzz>  /forums drama
2080 2013-08-28 23:24:43 gavinandresen has joined
2081 2013-08-28 23:25:10 CheckDavid has joined
2082 2013-08-28 23:25:13 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2083 2013-08-28 23:25:26 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2084 2013-08-28 23:25:50 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2085 2013-08-28 23:26:02 AusBitBank__ has joined
2086 2013-08-28 23:26:13 EmLeX has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2087 2013-08-28 23:26:36 darkee has joined
2088 2013-08-28 23:26:38 gavinandresen has joined
2089 2013-08-28 23:27:19 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2090 2013-08-28 23:27:31 c0rw1n has joined
2091 2013-08-28 23:28:23 gavinandresen has joined
2092 2013-08-28 23:28:31 EmLeX has joined
2093 2013-08-28 23:28:52 cypher has joined
2094 2013-08-28 23:29:07 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2095 2013-08-28 23:30:18 gavinandresen has joined
2096 2013-08-28 23:30:59 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2097 2013-08-28 23:31:15 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2098 2013-08-28 23:31:33 <maaku> n/m maaku understands blinding now
2099 2013-08-28 23:32:08 gavinandresen has joined
2100 2013-08-28 23:32:49 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2101 2013-08-28 23:32:52 reneg has joined
2102 2013-08-28 23:33:19 _flow_ has joined
2103 2013-08-28 23:33:58 gavinandresen has joined
2104 2013-08-28 23:34:41 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2105 2013-08-28 23:34:43 AusBitBank__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2106 2013-08-28 23:35:24 nomailing has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2107 2013-08-28 23:35:48 gavinandresen has joined
2108 2013-08-28 23:35:48 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
2109 2013-08-28 23:35:48 gavinandresen has joined
2110 2013-08-28 23:36:31 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2111 2013-08-28 23:37:40 Anduckkk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2112 2013-08-28 23:37:43 gavinandresen has joined
2113 2013-08-28 23:37:53 AusBitBank__ has joined
2114 2013-08-28 23:38:24 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2115 2013-08-28 23:38:57 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2116 2013-08-28 23:39:33 gavinandresen has joined
2117 2013-08-28 23:40:13 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2118 2013-08-28 23:40:54 bizoro has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2119 2013-08-28 23:41:15 bizoro has joined
2120 2013-08-28 23:41:23 gavinandresen has joined
2121 2013-08-28 23:41:29 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
2122 2013-08-28 23:41:29 gavinandresen has joined
2123 2013-08-28 23:42:06 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2124 2013-08-28 23:43:13 gavinandresen has joined
2125 2013-08-28 23:43:55 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2126 2013-08-28 23:45:03 gavinandresen has joined
2127 2013-08-28 23:45:47 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2128 2013-08-28 23:46:16 agath has joined
2129 2013-08-28 23:46:33 stevedekorte has joined
2130 2013-08-28 23:46:53 gavinandresen has joined
2131 2013-08-28 23:47:32 Thepok has joined
2132 2013-08-28 23:47:37 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2133 2013-08-28 23:48:28 AusBitBank__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2134 2013-08-28 23:48:28 gavinandresen has joined
2135 2013-08-28 23:49:10 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2136 2013-08-28 23:49:58 gavinandresen has joined
2137 2013-08-28 23:50:03 twobitcoins_ has joined
2138 2013-08-28 23:50:42 AusBitBank__ has joined
2139 2013-08-28 23:50:43 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2140 2013-08-28 23:51:29 toffoo has joined
2141 2013-08-28 23:51:52 minty has quit (Disconnected by services)
2142 2013-08-28 23:51:53 gavinandresen has joined
2143 2013-08-28 23:52:09 minty has joined
2144 2013-08-28 23:52:34 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2145 2013-08-28 23:52:45 minty has quit (Disconnected by services)
2146 2013-08-28 23:53:03 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2147 2013-08-28 23:53:07 mintmoneyman has joined
2148 2013-08-28 23:53:43 gavinandresen has joined
2149 2013-08-28 23:54:26 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2150 2013-08-28 23:54:58 reneg_ has joined
2151 2013-08-28 23:55:38 gavinandresen has joined
2152 2013-08-28 23:56:18 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2153 2013-08-28 23:57:28 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2154 2013-08-28 23:57:30 gavinandresen has joined
2155 2013-08-28 23:58:10 gavinandresen has quit (Client Quit)
2156 2013-08-28 23:59:16 AusBitBank_ has joined
2157 2013-08-28 23:59:19 AusBitBank__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2158 2013-08-28 23:59:20 gavinandresen has joined