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2 2013-08-29 00:00:25 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2943 Please support him with reviews, he did a huge amount of work to reach this point and it is now up to you bitcoin devs.
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141 2013-08-29 01:16:23 <petertodd> /kick gavinandresen
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144 2013-08-29 01:16:34 <petertodd> where's an @ when you need one?
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147 2013-08-29 01:16:59 <petertodd> /ignore gavinandresen
148 2013-08-29 01:17:02 <petertodd> close enough
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151 2013-08-29 01:18:03 <Cusipzzz> poor gavin
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171 2013-08-29 01:29:39 <petertodd> jgarzik: make-bootstrap.py didn't run to completion because I ran out of disk space, but at height 225,702 the average rate of data written to disk was 1914KB/s. Of course, I'm not doing any script verification, but that's not a bad speed.
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178 2013-08-29 01:33:05 <petertodd> jgarzik: Ah, so the data itself is going to be in a merkle tree?
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186 2013-08-29 01:37:38 <jgarzik> hum
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188 2013-08-29 01:37:51 <jgarzik> rfc1123Time() is not thread safe
189 2013-08-29 01:37:58 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, fix yer stuff poke poke
190 2013-08-29 01:38:24 <jgarzik> petertodd, Stephen @ BitPay really wanted public + private data
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193 2013-08-29 01:39:06 <petertodd> jgarzik: It's a good idea. I'd go as far as to extend the merkle tree so that the bottom level is H(H(key)|H(value))
194 2013-08-29 01:39:09 <jgarzik> petertodd, and convinced me, you might want to sign and publish various hashes along with your SIN whose contents you don't want to make public
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196 2013-08-29 01:39:28 <jgarzik> petertodd, hmm
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200 2013-08-29 01:40:12 <petertodd> jgarzik: You also should keep in mind that if you need to make it impossible to brute-force something, you'll need a dummy nonce in there somewhere.
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214 2013-08-29 01:46:28 <petertodd> Oh, and specifically, a very good way to do that is use your private key as data unknown to the attacker, then for each field that you want to make impossible to brute force, calculate nonce n=HMAC(privkey, field-data), then use H(n | field-data) in the merkle tree. Now you can prove field-data, yet doing so doesn't reveal the nonces for any other fields, and you don't have to store any extra secrets.
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228 2013-08-29 01:53:28 <jgarzik> petertodd, noted
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230 2013-08-29 01:54:08 <jgarzik> for code reuse and proving-it-works early, I'll probably reuse the bitcoin block header merkle stuff
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232 2013-08-29 01:54:30 <jgarzik> such that a generic bitcoin block generate-merkle-tree code should work with SINs
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234 2013-08-29 01:55:03 <jgarzik> petertodd, stephen and I also talked signing updates to this record
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236 2013-08-29 01:55:29 <jgarzik> petertodd, and you wind up with a chain of hashable SIN records, similar to git or bitcoin
237 2013-08-29 01:55:41 <jgarzik> the chain moving forward in time
238 2013-08-29 01:55:47 <ahmed_mobile1> hey jgarzik
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240 2013-08-29 01:56:24 <jgarzik> ahmed_mobile1, howdy. To answer your question, you'll need somebody who knows C to update it. I don't have time, and am rewriting pushpool into pushpool2.
241 2013-08-29 01:56:34 <helo> chains of hashes are so useful
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243 2013-08-29 01:56:57 <ahmed_mobile1> i see, ive rewritten it so that isnt a problem thanks to marcusw's help
244 2013-08-29 01:57:15 <ahmed_mobile1> jgarzik: do u know why hashrate would show about 100* lower?
245 2013-08-29 01:57:27 <ahmed_mobile1> e.g. 1mh shows up as 10Kh/s
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247 2013-08-29 01:57:52 <jgarzik> ahmed_mobile1, pushpool does not include hash speed measuring softwareÂ
that must be some other software package
248 2013-08-29 01:57:57 <jgarzik> ahmed_mobile1, pushpool just logs shares
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250 2013-08-29 01:58:34 <ahmed_mobile1> i see, how about skipping shares? i did notice the id of shares and my frontend were off,
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252 2013-08-29 01:58:55 <jgarzik> ahmed_mobile1, what are skipping shares?
253 2013-08-29 01:59:21 <ahmed_mobile1> pushpool possibly, i may have messed up somewhere but im not sure
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274 2013-08-29 02:09:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: signing updates is a good idea too - I've got a datastructure ideal for that called a merkle mountain range
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277 2013-08-29 02:12:19 <petertodd> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240861.0 <- Finally! An alt-coin with a pretty UI! I've been waiting for that.
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279 2013-08-29 02:12:57 <petertodd> Reminds me: killer feature for our one-click alt-coin generator will be skinz.
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281 2013-08-29 02:13:17 <petertodd> Should also put a themesong of your choice into the genesis block.
282 2013-08-29 02:13:30 <jgarzik> heh
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285 2013-08-29 02:14:25 <petertodd> Or maybe that should be the proof of work function? A memory hard one that requires calculating SHA256(SHA256(nonce + rickroll))
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310 2013-08-29 02:25:25 <petertodd> lol
311 2013-08-29 02:25:39 <gmaxwell> just long enough for him to get redirectedâ¦
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313 2013-08-29 02:31:39 <helo> would it be unwise for there to be an option to "quarantine subsequent payments to addresses"?
314 2013-08-29 02:31:54 <helo> so they won't be automatically used when doing a sendtoaddress/sendmany
315 2013-08-29 02:32:49 <helo> to prevent cookie crumbing from reducing anonymity
316 2013-08-29 02:32:58 <helo> *privacy
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318 2013-08-29 02:34:10 <gmaxwell> darnit!
319 2013-08-29 02:34:32 <Cusipzzz> he lives
320 2013-08-29 02:34:33 <gmaxwell> I guess his client doesn't stick to the new channel
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322 2013-08-29 02:34:53 <petertodd> zombie gavin
323 2013-08-29 02:34:59 <gmaxwell> cooooiiinnnsss
324 2013-08-29 02:35:10 <helo> heh
325 2013-08-29 02:35:13 <warren> good thing zombie gavin doesn't have any important private keys
326 2013-08-29 02:35:16 <warren> oh wait
327 2013-08-29 02:35:19 <petertodd> wonder if we can trick him with alt-coins?
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330 2013-08-29 02:36:40 <Cusipzzz> ...
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336 2013-08-29 02:40:15 <helo> given the recent publicity highlighting privacy issues
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366 2013-08-29 03:16:22 <coingenuity> http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~smeiklejohn/files/imc13.pdf interesting read
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380 2013-08-29 03:35:57 <jgarzik> OK, time to replace json_spirit. with a 100-line json-for-C++ that actually works, and does not require many megabytes per compiled object + ram.
381 2013-08-29 03:36:08 <jgarzik> (in my poolserver, not bitcoind)
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403 2013-08-29 04:17:35 <gmaxwell> coingenuity: interesting timing on that, enh?
404 2013-08-29 04:18:11 <coingenuity> very :)
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460 2013-08-29 06:30:37 <Ferroh> gmaxwell, are you /u/nullc ?
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463 2013-08-29 06:32:30 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: yes.
464 2013-08-29 06:33:48 ericmuyser has joined
465 2013-08-29 06:36:09 <Ferroh> ok excellent.
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476 2013-08-29 06:58:42 <warren> gmaxwell: ping
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478 2013-08-29 06:59:19 <gmaxwell> hm?
479 2013-08-29 06:59:32 wei_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
480 2013-08-29 06:59:59 <Diablo-D3> http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2013/08/29/how-to-make-the-inserthelp-key-emit-insert-in-iterm2
481 2013-08-29 07:00:35 reneg has joined
482 2013-08-29 07:00:56 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: that markov chainer bot is in #bitcoin-assets now
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486 2013-08-29 07:01:38 <gmaxwell> good.
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492 2013-08-29 07:02:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it doesnt seem to disturb anything
493 2013-08-29 07:02:54 <Diablo-D3> its not even a markov chainer
494 2013-08-29 07:02:56 <deego> Markov cahiner?
495 2013-08-29 07:02:59 <Diablo-D3> it just repeats random lines people have said
496 2013-08-29 07:03:10 <Diablo-D3> [02:45:36] <jorash> Quantum emulation is required to run quantum search algorithms such as Grover's (square root speedup) and GP (constant time).. versus classical linear time as SHA-2 is currently cracked. Class A shares indicate same rights as directors in the corp (including dividend from all revenue streams, not just miner which is a sideproject). 20-500x is the return based on the efficiency of the
497 2013-08-29 07:03:10 <Diablo-D3> [02:45:37] <jorash> miner.
498 2013-08-29 07:03:12 <Diablo-D3> for example
499 2013-08-29 07:04:04 <deego> ah
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501 2013-08-29 07:05:01 <gmaxwell> oh quantum emulation guy was in there too?
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506 2013-08-29 07:16:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: they're not the same guy?
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548 2013-08-29 08:18:24 <arioBarzan> If one chooses "OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUAL" as scriptPubKey, assuming he has not revealed his pubKey, the coins sent to that scriptPubKey wouldn't be spendable without that pubKey, right?
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550 2013-08-29 08:21:04 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: Perhaps you should ask what question you're really trying to answer?
551 2013-08-29 08:21:21 <maaku> arioBarzan: but anyone could rewrite the transaction claiming that script
552 2013-08-29 08:21:24 <gmaxwell> because I could say yes there, but it's meaningless. It's unspendable without the private key, and if you have the private key you have the public key.
553 2013-08-29 08:21:25 upb has joined
554 2013-08-29 08:21:43 <gmaxwell> oh you mean without a checksig! sorry I missed that!
555 2013-08-29 08:21:57 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: yea, that can be stolen by anyone when spent, esp miners.
556 2013-08-29 08:22:41 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: I know, but without pubKey I guess not possible to be stolen. Am I right?
557 2013-08-29 08:23:39 <gmaxwell> sure. or better "the preimage" it doesn't have to be any special value there. its just data.
558 2013-08-29 08:24:02 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: but when you consume that output you must reveal the preimage to the network, and then it can be stolen.
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562 2013-08-29 08:27:13 <arioBarzan> it is similar to example at bitcoin.it about tx a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b which was hash of the Genesis block.
563 2013-08-29 08:27:41 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: Thanks
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602 2013-08-29 09:39:01 <an3k> would be nice if the transaction history in bitcoin-qt would show fixed length for bitcoins instead of rounding the prices
603 2013-08-29 09:39:15 AusBitBank has joined
604 2013-08-29 09:39:24 <an3k> Sending 6.2229 BTC shows up as 6.223 BTC
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606 2013-08-29 09:40:12 <sipa> you can set the number of decimals somewhere
607 2013-08-29 09:40:19 <sipa> i think
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609 2013-08-29 09:42:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you can change it to mBTC but not the number of decimal places
610 2013-08-29 09:42:43 <phantomcircuit> and that's jut confusing as fuck
611 2013-08-29 09:43:12 <an3k> the mBTC stuff is also very confusing. Who ever used it?
612 2013-08-29 09:44:04 <sipa> i certainly prefer 1.2 mBTC over 0.0012 BTC
613 2013-08-29 09:44:40 <an3k> I don't because I never heard of it except for bitcoin-qt
614 2013-08-29 09:45:01 <sipa> it's a standard SI prefix :)
615 2013-08-29 09:45:16 <an3k> Si prefix are annoyng as hell and nobody uses them
616 2013-08-29 09:45:22 <an3k> MibiByte and crap like that
617 2013-08-29 09:45:33 <sipa> heh, that's not SI
618 2013-08-29 09:46:11 <sipa> m just means milli
619 2013-08-29 09:47:05 <an3k> it also could mean mega ... yes, there are developers using m for mega instead of M
620 2013-08-29 09:47:19 <sipa> then they're wrong :)
621 2013-08-29 09:47:53 <sipa> anyway, i think people will end up using mBTC and perhaps uBTC at some point in the future
622 2013-08-29 09:48:16 <sipa> as too many zeroes is very hard to interpret fro humans
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624 2013-08-29 09:50:31 <an3k> that's right but bitcoins have to rise by factor 10 till ppl will use mBTC
625 2013-08-29 09:51:01 <sipa> perhaps, yes
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627 2013-08-29 09:54:23 <an3k> Btw. is there an iPhone app in development?
628 2013-08-29 09:55:58 <sipa> for/from?
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631 2013-08-29 09:57:02 <an3k> well, for bitcoins. just like bitcoin-qt but for iphone
632 2013-08-29 09:57:06 <Scrat> an3k: no, because apple will kill it
633 2013-08-29 09:57:19 <Scrat> we also dont like walled gardens here
634 2013-08-29 09:57:21 <an3k> Scrat: you don't have to offer it through Apple Store ;)
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636 2013-08-29 09:57:54 <sipa> an3k: i'm sure there are several bitcoin-related iphone apps, but not a full client
637 2013-08-29 09:57:55 <an3k> get the iphone configuration tool and with that you can install any app, even those not allowed on appstore :)
638 2013-08-29 09:58:17 <sipa> a full node on mobile also doesn't really make sense, resource-wise
639 2013-08-29 09:58:41 <graingert> sipa, this is why a protocol to trust the desktops I operate is needed
640 2013-08-29 09:58:42 <an3k> sipa: no wallet for iPhone :( http://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet
641 2013-08-29 09:58:54 <graingert> (relative I)
642 2013-08-29 09:59:02 <graingert> not just trust graingert
643 2013-08-29 09:59:05 <sipa> graingert: SPV + trusted peer
644 2013-08-29 09:59:14 <graingert> s/peer/peers/
645 2013-08-29 09:59:17 <sipa> yes
646 2013-08-29 09:59:25 <graingert> yes that
647 2013-08-29 09:59:26 <graingert> is there one?
648 2013-08-29 09:59:33 <sipa> for android, sure
649 2013-08-29 09:59:49 <graingert> tbh trusted peer group would be useful so only one of my desktops bother checking
650 2013-08-29 09:59:49 <Scrat> the android wallet is the only mobile SPV client, correct?
651 2013-08-29 09:59:51 <sipa> an SPV node would certainly work - there exists one for Android - but i don't know if anyone would bother doing the effort of writing one with such a high chance of being rejected (and thus not commercially useful)
652 2013-08-29 09:59:59 <Scrat> does it use bitcoinj code?
653 2013-08-29 10:00:02 <sipa> yes
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657 2013-08-29 10:04:27 <phantomcircuit> sipa, also you'd have to implement the entire thing in objective c
658 2013-08-29 10:04:29 <phantomcircuit> which is
659 2013-08-29 10:04:31 <phantomcircuit> lol nothx
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671 2013-08-29 10:31:57 <_dr> does anyone know a tool to dump the current utxo other than the blockparser? (blockparser is way too slow)
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711 2013-08-29 11:58:07 <Luke-Jr> well this is a surprise. I accidentally xz'd some bz2 files. They're smaller than either bz2 or xz alone
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721 2013-08-29 12:12:04 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, MAGIC
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723 2013-08-29 12:17:05 <warren> Luke-Jr: conman's magic compression tool that is slow as heck can often do better.
724 2013-08-29 12:17:21 <Luke-Jr> warren: as you say, it's slow as heck :/
725 2013-08-29 12:17:26 <Luke-Jr> warren: especially on 32-bit
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728 2013-08-29 12:20:23 <sturles> I have a compression tool which _always_ make the file at least two characters shorter. Unfortunately it makes the file name two or three characters longer as well, so it isn't very useful on large files...
729 2013-08-29 12:21:19 <phantomcircuit> sturles, lol
730 2013-08-29 12:21:21 <phantomcircuit> that one guy
731 2013-08-29 12:21:24 <phantomcircuit> i love that guy
732 2013-08-29 12:21:31 <wumpus> sturles: maybe you could use the extended attributes instead, it's less bothersome than the filename :)
733 2013-08-29 12:21:37 <phantomcircuit> poorly thought out compression challenges
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738 2013-08-29 12:24:18 <sturles> wumpus: Extended attributes are often poorly handled when files are copied or moved.
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743 2013-08-29 12:25:58 <wumpus> well yeah, that's too bad isn't it, just add to the disclaimer that the compressed file is fragile and should not be copied or moved
744 2013-08-29 12:30:34 <SomeoneWeird> lol
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746 2013-08-29 12:36:51 * michagogo wonders if jgarzik's here
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757 2013-08-29 12:38:37 <ahmedbodi> me too michagogo
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811 2013-08-29 14:22:03 <dustjn> What's the standard way of referring to the real bitcoin blockchain+network in contrast to testnet? I've seen libraries that call it "prod", other people say it should be "Bitcoin" with a capital B... how do the core devs refer to it?
812 2013-08-29 14:22:26 patcon has joined
813 2013-08-29 14:22:49 <sipa> i call it mainnet usually
814 2013-08-29 14:22:57 <aspect__> livenet/mainnet?
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816 2013-08-29 14:24:10 <sipa> the current source code has CMainParams and CTestNetParams
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831 2013-08-29 14:45:46 <UukGoblin> dustjn, where-you-shouldn't-pay-200btc-fee-net ;-)
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837 2013-08-29 14:51:56 <Luke-Jr> dustjn: mainnet seems common for devs
838 2013-08-29 14:52:40 <dustjn> sipa, aspect__, Luke-Jr, thank you.
839 2013-08-29 14:52:57 <dustjn> UukGoblin: I have surplus laughs.
840 2013-08-29 14:58:59 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: you're aware pullreq submitters *can't* reopen ones you close? "Closing. Feel free to reopen, if feedback is addressed."
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916 2013-08-29 16:37:17 <Diapolo> Can someone try to reach 2l2u6mrojvm6zypx.onion?
917 2013-08-29 16:37:54 <Diapolo> And z2pq5jlss2cnxtm2.onion (testnet).
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939 2013-08-29 17:05:15 <Diapolo> Pretty cool, freenode IRC via Tor connected to their hs
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978 2013-08-29 17:48:55 jgarzik is now known as Austin_Powers
979 2013-08-29 17:49:00 <Austin_Powers> Rock n roll, baby
980 2013-08-29 17:49:04 Austin_Powers is now known as jgarzik
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982 2013-08-29 17:49:18 * jgarzik just wrote JSON lexer and parser, in flex/bison++
983 2013-08-29 17:49:27 <jgarzik> the generated code is pretty big...
984 2013-08-29 17:49:34 <jgarzik> Â
and yet it is 10% of json_spirit
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987 2013-08-29 17:50:24 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, tryign to replace that monstrosity? :)
988 2013-08-29 17:51:05 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, writing a c++ pool server, and couldn't take it anymore
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990 2013-08-29 17:51:23 <jgarzik> tried using json_spirit, but now the writer crapped out on me, for stupid reasons
991 2013-08-29 17:51:39 <phantomcircuit> heh
992 2013-08-29 17:51:45 <jgarzik> I could fix it, but replacing the shite with something 10% of json_spirit's size was fun
993 2013-08-29 17:51:48 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, im busy improving wallet performance
994 2013-08-29 17:51:52 <phantomcircuit> so much low hanging fruit...
995 2013-08-29 17:51:55 <jgarzik> haven't lexed and yacced in a while
996 2013-08-29 17:52:50 <phantomcircuit> my wallet with nothing but regtest coinbase transactions
997 2013-08-29 17:52:50 <phantomcircuit> "balance" : 606.25000000,
998 2013-08-29 17:52:51 <phantomcircuit> wat
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1001 2013-08-29 17:53:16 <phantomcircuit> oh i see the block reward halfs much faster in regtest
1002 2013-08-29 17:53:22 <phantomcircuit> interesting
1003 2013-08-29 17:53:35 <jgarzik> https://code.google.com/p/vjson/ would probably achieve another multiple of compactness, but that requires manual linked list traversal. no useful APIs.
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1015 2013-08-29 18:00:11 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2736
1016 2013-08-29 18:00:15 <phantomcircuit> this is seriously annoying
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1019 2013-08-29 18:00:34 <phantomcircuit> CheckTransaction fails when loading if the dependent transactions haven't been confirmed
1020 2013-08-29 18:00:55 <phantomcircuit> since they're loaded after the tx with dependencies
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1022 2013-08-29 18:01:15 <phantomcircuit> i guess nobody noticed because the mempool is fine until you restart
1023 2013-08-29 18:01:26 <phantomcircuit> and by then most peoples transactions have been broadcast
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1031 2013-08-29 18:03:11 <phantomcircuit> actually that doesn't make sense
1032 2013-08-29 18:03:30 <phantomcircuit> IsFromMe dependent transactions would necessarily be loaded first
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1069 2013-08-29 18:34:29 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, are you aware of the reason vtxPrev is used instead of walking the dependency tree and looking them up with pwallet->mapWallet?
1070 2013-08-29 18:34:33 <phantomcircuit> i assume there is one
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1072 2013-08-29 18:34:56 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, was mapWallet in 0.1.x?
1073 2013-08-29 18:35:03 <phantomcircuit> i have no idea
1074 2013-08-29 18:35:26 * jgarzik isn't much of an expert on the wallet side of bitcoind
1075 2013-08-29 18:35:43 <jgarzik> still learning a few details here and there, while making the JS signing tool
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1077 2013-08-29 18:36:16 <jgarzik> like: the format and order of signatures in scriptSig, in a partially signed TX
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1079 2013-08-29 18:36:26 <phantomcircuit> 223b6f1b src/main.cpp (Wladimir J. van der Laan 2011-05-15 09:11:04 +0200 1124) BOOST_FOREACH(CMerkleTx& tx, vtxPrev)
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1082 2013-08-29 18:38:46 <sipa> phantomcircuit: dependencies are not necessarily in mapWallet
1083 2013-08-29 18:39:37 <sipa> i think
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1085 2013-08-29 18:40:07 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i believe everything in vtxPrev should be in mapWallet
1086 2013-08-29 18:40:15 <sipa> is, or should be?
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1088 2013-08-29 18:40:48 <phantomcircuit> sipa, im not sure about older wallets but current ones for sure
1089 2013-08-29 18:40:53 <sipa> a second-level dependency is not necessarily a transaction that qualifies as IsMine or IsFromMe
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1091 2013-08-29 18:41:06 <phantomcircuit> unless there's someweirdness where vtxPrev is serialized into the "tx" record with the actual tx
1092 2013-08-29 18:41:15 <sipa> yes, it is
1093 2013-08-29 18:41:20 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1094 2013-08-29 18:41:23 <sipa> that's the point
1095 2013-08-29 18:41:25 <phantomcircuit> ok then i have to rethink this
1096 2013-08-29 18:41:32 <sipa> so unconfirmed dependencies can get rebroadcast
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1098 2013-08-29 18:42:04 <phantomcircuit> sipa, as it stands the logic would do that for any "tx" record even if it wasn't IsFromMe
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1100 2013-08-29 18:42:12 <phantomcircuit> but i can see how that might be confusing
1101 2013-08-29 18:42:23 <sipa> ?
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1103 2013-08-29 18:42:31 <sipa> you should rebroadcast any dependency
1104 2013-08-29 18:42:37 <sipa> even if it doesn't apply to you
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1108 2013-08-29 18:43:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa, right i was asking if the vtxPrev is serialized into the same "tx" record as the IsMine transaction
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1112 2013-08-29 18:43:21 <sipa> it's just part of the CWalletTx
1113 2013-08-29 18:43:34 <sipa> and remains there
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1115 2013-08-29 18:43:38 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1116 2013-08-29 18:43:49 <phantomcircuit> ok so the logic needs to be more complicated than i initially thought
1117 2013-08-29 18:43:51 <phantomcircuit> that's unfortunate
1118 2013-08-29 18:44:08 <sipa> i suppose it makes sense to store the dependencies directly in the wallet
1119 2013-08-29 18:44:21 <sipa> flagged as neither-from-or-to-me-yet-still-important
1120 2013-08-29 18:44:26 <phantomcircuit> it probably makes sense for the dependencies to have their own record
1121 2013-08-29 18:44:29 * michagogo checks the forum thread to see if jgarzik put up the thing
1122 2013-08-29 18:44:40 <phantomcircuit> but doing that would require extensive checking to make sure IsMine() is called everywhere it should be
1123 2013-08-29 18:44:47 <phantomcircuit> and im not sure i want to do that
1124 2013-08-29 18:45:02 <phantomcircuit> it should be easy enough to work around that limitation though
1125 2013-08-29 18:45:24 * michagogo complys with jgarzik's request to nag him
1126 2013-08-29 18:45:34 * michagogo complies* with jgarzik's request to nag him
1127 2013-08-29 18:45:43 <phantomcircuit> basically walk vtxPrev and then talk anything in mapWallet that's also dependent and unconfirmed
1128 2013-08-29 18:46:03 <phantomcircuit> which will only work is there's a ridiculous chain of your own tx's but that's ok
1129 2013-08-29 18:46:44 <maaku> does signmessage base64-encode prior to signing?
1130 2013-08-29 18:46:54 <sipa> prior? no
1131 2013-08-29 18:47:02 <phantomcircuit> possibly vtxPrev should store dependent transactions which are not IsFromMe() and then rely on mapWallet for those that are IsFromMe()
1132 2013-08-29 18:47:03 <sipa> the result is base64 encoded
1133 2013-08-29 18:47:05 <michagogo> ;;later tell jgarzik nag
1134 2013-08-29 18:47:06 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1135 2013-08-29 18:47:10 <phantomcircuit> which would probably end up being optimal behavior
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1137 2013-08-29 18:47:31 <phantomcircuit> but would require changes everywhere vtxPrev is used
1138 2013-08-29 18:47:33 <maaku> there's no processing on the input, however?
1139 2013-08-29 18:47:56 <CodeShark> are you guys talking about double-spend detection for the wallet?
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1141 2013-08-29 18:48:21 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, no im talking about an extremely rare edge case that i would guess literally nobody has ever hit
1142 2013-08-29 18:48:37 <phantomcircuit> which just makes the mempool reject IsFromMe() transactions since it cant find the inputs
1143 2013-08-29 18:49:09 <phantomcircuit> indeed hitting this would probably be computationally infeasible due to a performance issue
1144 2013-08-29 18:49:16 <phantomcircuit> which once i fixed made this obvious
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1146 2013-08-29 18:49:22 <phantomcircuit> but it's not a real problem so whatever
1147 2013-08-29 18:50:21 <CodeShark> hmm, are you talking about spending unconfirmed coins?
1148 2013-08-29 18:50:29 <phantomcircuit> yup
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1152 2013-08-29 18:51:00 <phantomcircuit> i improved the performance of IsConfirmed for that specific use case by a lot (actually i did it wrong but i can fix that)
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1166 2013-08-29 18:59:26 <phantomcircuit> sipa, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2952
1167 2013-08-29 19:00:10 <phantomcircuit> switches the search to an explicit breadth first using tx hash as identifier
1168 2013-08-29 19:00:24 <phantomcircuit> searches both mapWallet and vtxPrev
1169 2013-08-29 19:00:37 <phantomcircuit> and is also much faster
1170 2013-08-29 19:00:58 <phantomcircuit> there's still one optimization available but it's marginal
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1172 2013-08-29 19:01:06 <phantomcircuit> eh i'll add it why not...
1173 2013-08-29 19:02:09 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: INCLUDE SOME BENCHMARK NUMBERS. :P To someone who doesn't already know how laughably slow it is, it's not clear why taking your patch is important. (I know, but, e.g. gavin may not)
1174 2013-08-29 19:02:25 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i honestly have no idea what the complexity even is
1175 2013-08-29 19:02:35 <phantomcircuit> fractal or something insane
1176 2013-08-29 19:02:52 <phantomcircuit> er
1177 2013-08-29 19:02:54 <phantomcircuit> words
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1181 2013-08-29 19:03:22 <gmaxwell> yea, I know. I gave up naming the complexity before, it's worse than quadratic. But you know, test it on some big testnet wallet and give a figure. :P
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1184 2013-08-29 19:04:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i think it's actually factorial time since it ends up walking the same branches many times
1185 2013-08-29 19:04:39 <phantomcircuit> O(n!)
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1187 2013-08-29 19:05:18 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's about right
1188 2013-08-29 19:05:27 <phantomcircuit> it fails completely with only like 10 unconfirmed inputs
1189 2013-08-29 19:05:49 <sipa> so, give some real numbers
1190 2013-08-29 19:05:54 <phantomcircuit> yeah i will
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1192 2013-08-29 19:06:15 <phantomcircuit> im switching from setAlreadyDone to setAlreadyQueued
1193 2013-08-29 19:06:25 <phantomcircuit> which will further reduce runtime
1194 2013-08-29 19:06:30 <phantomcircuit> to pretty much optimal
1195 2013-08-29 19:06:35 <gmaxwell> Yea, I don't care about the asymptotic complexity much, just give a "8 unconfirmed tx is 30 seconds vs <1 second"
1196 2013-08-29 19:06:56 <phantomcircuit> 30 seconds?
1197 2013-08-29 19:07:00 <phantomcircuit> more liek 5 minutes
1198 2013-08-29 19:07:07 <sipa> ehh... wut?
1199 2013-08-29 19:07:09 <gmaxwell> for 8? I didn't think it was that bad.
1200 2013-08-29 19:07:17 <gmaxwell> I thought it took like 20 to get it up to minutes.
1201 2013-08-29 19:07:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it depends on if they're chained together
1202 2013-08-29 19:07:49 <phantomcircuit> if they are you end up walking the same tree of unconfirmed tx's many times
1203 2013-08-29 19:08:06 <phantomcircuit> if you just have 8 unconfirmed that depend on only confirmed it's fast
1204 2013-08-29 19:08:13 <phantomcircuit> which is why most people dont notice it's slow
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1206 2013-08-29 19:08:20 <gmaxwell> regardless, yea, I know there are cases where just a few (like 20) unconfirmed tx can get it up to several minutes.
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1208 2013-08-29 19:08:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, someone tried to double spend against a wallet i control
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1210 2013-08-29 19:09:22 <phantomcircuit> i had to remove a tiny tx since the runtime trying to resolve it's dependencies was getting into 30 minutes
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1212 2013-08-29 19:09:32 <sipa> wow
1213 2013-08-29 19:09:33 <phantomcircuit> so relaytx was just running in a loop
1214 2013-08-29 19:09:40 <sipa> i had no clue it was that bad
1215 2013-08-29 19:09:44 <gmaxwell> at times I've regarded it as a feature, since stops some morons from DOS attacking the network with a shell script. So maybe we also need to add a sending rate limiter at the same time we fix this.
1216 2013-08-29 19:09:52 <sipa> see: real numbers are useful :p
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1218 2013-08-29 19:11:42 <CodeShark> the RPC latency is already a rate limiter :p
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1220 2013-08-29 19:12:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the main defense there is that most people wouldn't want to spend the tx fees to get stuff like that relayed
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1222 2013-08-29 19:12:28 <phantomcircuit> actually im not sure the relay rules even allow for chained unconfirmed txs
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1224 2013-08-29 19:12:44 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea thats the _real_ defense. Though a rate limiter might still be prudent.
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1226 2013-08-29 19:12:47 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: they do.
1227 2013-08-29 19:13:28 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's not exactly fast even after this is fixed to do that sort of flooding
1228 2013-08-29 19:13:28 <CodeShark> they most certainly do - I've used them numerous times
1229 2013-08-29 19:13:36 <phantomcircuit> since the coinselection process is still really slow
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1233 2013-08-29 19:14:03 <phantomcircuit> im upto 360 tx's and it's now the bottleneck
1234 2013-08-29 19:14:05 <phantomcircuit> which is reasonable
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1237 2013-08-29 19:14:21 <gmaxwell> Ultimately we can only stop such attacks with economics, since truly malicious parties will just remove limiters... but making economic antispam agressive has costs for non-attackers, esp since the network can't really tell "these 50 txn came from one person" and so the controls can only have linear costs.
1238 2013-08-29 19:14:28 <owowo> any bitcointalk mod in here that could unban me?
1239 2013-08-29 19:14:34 <phantomcircuit> so it's now fast enough that a real business with a burst of tx's wouldn't be screwed
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1241 2013-08-29 19:14:42 <phantomcircuit> but an attacker wouldn't find this particularly useful
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1243 2013-08-29 19:14:53 <gmaxwell> owowo: only global mods and theymos can unban people. What were you banned for?
1244 2013-08-29 19:15:04 <phantomcircuit> since it's still much slower than just doing rawtransactions stuff
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1246 2013-08-29 19:15:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well in this case the relay rules could impose increasing fees for transactions dependent on other unconfirmed transactions
1247 2013-08-29 19:15:57 <owowo> for making the mod banning me,... it was intentionally and over on year ago when I trolled the trolls in a BFL thread
1248 2013-08-29 19:16:07 <phantomcircuit> since that's what gets a performance boost here
1249 2013-08-29 19:16:47 <owowo> gmaxwell: http://i.imgur.com/xdgokaZ.png
1250 2013-08-29 19:17:18 <phantomcircuit> i doubt you got banned for that
1251 2013-08-29 19:17:27 <phantomcircuit> there's much worse on the forum than that
1252 2013-08-29 19:17:35 <owowo> you can doubt but that's the truth
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1257 2013-08-29 19:18:04 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: The relay rules basically stop spamming the network based on the idea that a transaction will be mined, thus the fee/priority will be spent, so yes increasing fees to relay for long unconfirmed chains makes a hell of a lot of sense.
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1259 2013-08-29 19:19:11 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: The other issue is it needs to be possible to tell a peer "Here's some high fee tx, and it's worth it to include parents a, b, c to mine the tx"
1260 2013-08-29 19:19:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I'd commented before that address reuse is one way someone can voluntarily signal that the txn all belong to the same party, and we should use that for anti-spam when they do.... likewise for unconfirmed chains, so I agree.
1261 2013-08-29 19:19:30 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, children*
1262 2013-08-29 19:19:53 <gmaxwell> Just because attackers can act in a way to make their attack transactions look mostly isolated, doesn't mean that we shouldn't do grouping QOS when they don't.
1263 2013-08-29 19:19:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ha, interesting way to talk about address re-use
1264 2013-08-29 19:19:55 <maaku> gmaxwell: i'm beginning to think that coinjoin should be a multi-party & blinding extensions to the payment protocol
1265 2013-08-29 19:20:25 <petertodd> maaku: Why? coinjoin is payment protocol compatible without anything else
1266 2013-08-29 19:20:31 <gmaxwell> maaku: payment protcol will have enough of an uphill battle without layering on more things.
1267 2013-08-29 19:20:32 <phantomcircuit> does anybody know the dev for multibit?
1268 2013-08-29 19:20:50 <phantomcircuit> i've been trying to get it to build for a while now with the idea of incorporating automated coinjoin
1269 2013-08-29 19:21:06 <maaku> i mean a separate, later extension; there's no reason to hold up development of the payment protocol
1270 2013-08-29 19:21:26 <maaku> but as i implement blinded coinjoin, i'm making request & response objects that look very similar to payment protocol
1271 2013-08-29 19:21:29 <petertodd> maaku: Anyway I'm skeptical that any of this blinding stuff is needed on day 1 - just make broadcasting the coinjoin-related messages expensive in terms of some limited resource and you're fine. Remember that all blinding does is optimize anit-dos efforts.
1272 2013-08-29 19:21:41 <maaku> well i've got the blinding stuff done
1273 2013-08-29 19:21:43 <petertodd> maaku: Even with blinding you still need that underlying limited resource.
1274 2013-08-29 19:21:57 <maaku> it's just all the other protocol and DoS issues that are trouble
1275 2013-08-29 19:22:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: blinding doesn't just optimize anti-dos, in at least some protocol cases its required in order to keep the players from knowing the mapping.
1276 2013-08-29 19:22:24 <petertodd> maaku: Exactly. Talking about blidning first is just plain getting ahead of yourself.
1277 2013-08-29 19:22:33 <maaku> petertodd: how is blinding related to DoS?
1278 2013-08-29 19:22:47 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, blinding allows for not using tor to submit input/output pairs independently
1279 2013-08-29 19:23:02 <phantomcircuit> which is important since tor is annoying and not as provably anonymous as blinding
1280 2013-08-29 19:23:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, in some protocols, but with anti-dos it's just as easy to separate the steps of asking for an output and advertising willingness to add an input.
1281 2013-08-29 19:23:12 <phantomcircuit> indeed im now extremely suspicious of tor
1282 2013-08-29 19:23:42 <phantomcircuit> given the information sharing between many foreign governments the idea that they're all sharing tor connection timing information and can act as a global observer seems fairly likely
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1286 2013-08-29 19:24:18 <phantomcircuit> (or at least something approaching a global observer)
1287 2013-08-29 19:24:33 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: The one case where fancy blinding helps is when you do collectively come up with the full set of txins, and then you reveal that full set in one go. But that makes the whole process take longer anyway, and IMO we're much better off getting solid 2-party coinjoin working first.
1288 2013-08-29 19:24:56 <phantomcircuit> shrug
1289 2013-08-29 19:25:10 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1290 2013-08-29 19:25:11 <phantomcircuit> the hardest part is clientside making sure the tx includes the input/output
1291 2013-08-29 19:25:17 <phantomcircuit> which is relatively easy
1292 2013-08-29 19:25:22 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: trivial...
1293 2013-08-29 19:25:32 <phantomcircuit> well it should be
1294 2013-08-29 19:25:35 <phantomcircuit> but people gonna stupid
1295 2013-08-29 19:25:45 <gmaxwell> maaku: what petertodd means is that if you just have people connected and provide outputs with no protection other than perhaps a pow that any attack is purely a DOS (since no one will sign if their output is left out)
1296 2013-08-29 19:26:01 <gmaxwell> maaku: but since you've already implemented the blinding, sweet.
1297 2013-08-29 19:26:07 jicksta has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1298 2013-08-29 19:26:22 <petertodd> maaku: What specific type of blinding have you implemented?
1299 2013-08-29 19:26:31 <gmaxwell> To correct phantomcircuit's tor fears you would also need a homorphic encryption mixer. ... yet more work.
1300 2013-08-29 19:26:47 <maaku> gmaxwell: i'm using bitmessage for communication, so there's at least some PoW anti-DoS built in
1301 2013-08-29 19:26:57 KillYourTV has joined
1302 2013-08-29 19:27:12 <gmaxwell> petertodd: he's implemented RSA blind signing of inputs.
1303 2013-08-29 19:27:13 <maaku> just regular RSA blinding
1304 2013-08-29 19:27:22 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1305 2013-08-29 19:27:55 <gmaxwell> maaku: Did it turn out to be reasonably easy to get working?
1306 2013-08-29 19:28:03 <petertodd> maaku: Right, so the participants who do sign tx's can prove that the tx they committed to sign was in the set of txs that actually got signed.
1307 2013-08-29 19:28:04 outkzt has joined
1308 2013-08-29 19:28:29 Coincidental has joined
1309 2013-08-29 19:28:33 <maaku> the blinding? yes. turning it into something usable is another problem
1310 2013-08-29 19:28:55 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1311 2013-08-29 19:29:14 Coincidental has joined
1312 2013-08-29 19:29:15 <petertodd> maaku: Yeah, usable still requires the PoW, which I guess you do have in bitmessage, but it's better for the PoW to be denominated in Bitcoins so dedicated attackers don't have an advantage over the defenders.
1313 2013-08-29 19:29:34 <gmaxwell> perfect is the enemy of good. :P
1314 2013-08-29 19:29:46 <maaku> petertodd: fidelity bonds would be better
1315 2013-08-29 19:29:51 <maaku> but bitmessage is there ;)
1316 2013-08-29 19:29:59 viperhr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1317 2013-08-29 19:30:14 <maaku> anyway, like I said I think this should eventually become an extension to the payment protocol
1318 2013-08-29 19:30:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: IMO it's maaku's stuff that's perfect being the enemy of good :P
1319 2013-08-29 19:30:24 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1320 2013-08-29 19:30:25 <maaku> so what i'm doing is really just a prototype to make sure the protocol is secure
1321 2013-08-29 19:30:33 <gmaxwell> I think you only need to do basic anti-dos until there are actual attackers. :P
1322 2013-08-29 19:30:41 <petertodd> maaku: payment protocol doesn't help if I want to pay... well, shitlaods of stuff
1323 2013-08-29 19:30:59 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, but he has code, complaints that you're doing too much design only apply when there is no code yet.
1324 2013-08-29 19:31:17 <petertodd> gmaxwell: heh, there is that
1325 2013-08-29 19:31:17 outkzt has quit (Client Quit)
1326 2013-08-29 19:31:35 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1327 2013-08-29 19:31:35 outkzt has joined
1328 2013-08-29 19:31:35 * petertodd wishes he wasn't going to be gone for a week hiking...
1329 2013-08-29 19:31:44 GordonG3kko has joined
1330 2013-08-29 19:32:12 <petertodd> Though I do worry about creating some complex system requiring crypto that'll have to get ported to a pile of platforms to really make this commonly used...
1331 2013-08-29 19:32:32 <maaku> petertodd: I think relying on RSA is pretty safe...
1332 2013-08-29 19:32:40 <petertodd> And requiring users to buy a fidelity bond first is ugly. :(
1333 2013-08-29 19:33:01 <petertodd> (IE bitmessage as you are doing is actually good)
1334 2013-08-29 19:33:24 <petertodd> maaku: So the blinding algorithm can be done with, say, openssl RSA primitives?
1335 2013-08-29 19:33:38 <maaku> petertodd: yes
1336 2013-08-29 19:33:45 <petertodd> maaku: good
1337 2013-08-29 19:34:00 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I'd presume it can just be done trivially with any bignum library in any case.
1338 2013-08-29 19:34:03 normanrichards has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1339 2013-08-29 19:34:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: so long as that's fast enough to be usuable it's not a big deal
1340 2013-08-29 19:34:28 <maaku> yeah, actually it's a pain in openssl because you have to get around all the padding that is done by default
1341 2013-08-29 19:34:36 <maaku> it's actually easier to just use bignums, albeit probably slower
1342 2013-08-29 19:34:50 altamic has joined
1343 2013-08-29 19:34:54 <phantomcircuit> maaku, what's the problem with padding?
1344 2013-08-29 19:35:04 <phantomcircuit> actually nvm
1345 2013-08-29 19:35:05 <phantomcircuit> i get it
1346 2013-08-29 19:35:09 asuk has joined
1347 2013-08-29 19:35:52 <petertodd> Anyway, enough complaining from me, I should just go off and implement my version of all this - the P2P flood-fill layer it requires is useful for other stuff anyway.
1348 2013-08-29 19:35:58 robocoin_afk has quit (Quit: .)
1349 2013-08-29 19:36:33 pierre` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1350 2013-08-29 19:37:48 robocoin1 has quit (Quit: leaving)
1351 2013-08-29 19:37:57 Anduckkk has joined
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1353 2013-08-29 19:37:57 Anduckkk has joined
1354 2013-08-29 19:38:24 robocoin has joined
1355 2013-08-29 19:38:55 <maaku> i'll post the code soon (hopefully today or tomorrow)
1356 2013-08-29 19:39:05 <maaku> minus the bitmessage stuff, which is in pieces and only half-working
1357 2013-08-29 19:39:17 <petertodd> cool
1358 2013-08-29 19:39:21 <petertodd> what language?
1359 2013-08-29 19:39:25 <maaku> python
1360 2013-08-29 19:39:31 <petertodd> what library?
1361 2013-08-29 19:39:31 <maaku> was easier to prototype
1362 2013-08-29 19:39:35 <maaku> python-bitcoin
1363 2013-08-29 19:39:46 <petertodd> jgarzik's one?
1364 2013-08-29 19:39:56 <maaku> no, my fork from the pynode days
1365 2013-08-29 19:40:09 <maaku> https://github.com/monetizeio/python-bitcoin
1366 2013-08-29 19:40:17 <maaku> it's a more pythonic version of jgarzik's
1367 2013-08-29 19:41:00 <petertodd> You realize I'm working on a pythonic version of jgarzik's too 'eh?
1368 2013-08-29 19:41:29 <maaku> well feel free to steal, it's the same license
1369 2013-08-29 19:41:38 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1370 2013-08-29 19:41:43 Anduckkk is now known as Anduck
1371 2013-08-29 19:42:29 danda_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1372 2013-08-29 19:42:29 <maaku> you might be interested in the ultraprune stuff in ledger.py
1373 2013-08-29 19:42:47 <petertodd> Cool - yours is taking the 'pythonic' approach a good dea farther than mine from what I can see. I've got making it eventually compiled with Cython in mind.
1374 2013-08-29 19:43:02 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
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1377 2013-08-29 19:43:46 altamic has left ()
1378 2013-08-29 19:46:21 <petertodd> Oh, related to CoinJoin stuff, etotheipi and I was talking about making SIGHASH cover the txin value - I'm thinking that a good system would be to let a signature cover a specific set of txins/outs by index, and then build a merkle tree of that and sign that hash.
1379 2013-08-29 19:46:24 nsh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1380 2013-08-29 19:46:36 <petertodd> Thus to merge tx's you would just change the indexes as needed, and the signature still passes.
1381 2013-08-29 19:47:09 <petertodd> Would make coinjoin stuff much better because you could add additional participates later, without absolutely requriing everyone to sign everything.
1382 2013-08-29 19:47:52 normanrichards has joined
1383 2013-08-29 19:47:59 <petertodd> Similarly, do a SIGHASH_SUM so I can say I want to *add* funds to a given txout for the "merge multiple payments" use-case.
1384 2013-08-29 19:48:37 <petertodd> And finally, for a txin, it should be possible to sign for a given CTxOut, rather than COutPoint, which makes tx mutability matter a whole lot less...
1385 2013-08-29 19:49:21 mrkent has joined
1386 2013-08-29 19:49:21 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
1387 2013-08-29 19:49:21 mrkent has joined
1388 2013-08-29 19:49:22 Anduck has quit ()
1389 2013-08-29 19:50:23 <ThomasV> maaku: you implemented bitmessage in python?
1390 2013-08-29 19:50:33 <maaku> ThomasV: no
1391 2013-08-29 19:50:43 <maaku> the coinjoin blinded signature protocol
1392 2013-08-29 19:50:49 <ThomasV> oh :)
1393 2013-08-29 19:51:37 <maaku> bit i thought bitmessage was python
1394 2013-08-29 19:51:42 <maaku> or is that just the gui?
1395 2013-08-29 19:51:54 <ThomasV> idk
1396 2013-08-29 19:52:00 Anduck has joined
1397 2013-08-29 19:52:12 <ThomasV> I just tried it for the first time last week
1398 2013-08-29 19:52:19 <maaku> https://github.com/Bitmessage/PyBitmessage
1399 2013-08-29 19:52:25 <ThomasV> I wonder if it scales
1400 2013-08-29 19:52:29 <ThomasV> ok
1401 2013-08-29 19:52:38 <petertodd> ThomasV: it scales as well as bitcoin...
1402 2013-08-29 19:53:06 peetaur2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1403 2013-08-29 19:53:17 <ThomasV> that does not sound good
1404 2013-08-29 19:53:43 <ThomasV> well, it has this node specialization thing
1405 2013-08-29 19:53:52 <petertodd> ThomasV: they've got some ideas to be able to split the whole network into parts though, so you only have to keep up with a given part, but that has problems the moment you have a few identities, especially if you are just trying to follow a broadcast
1406 2013-08-29 19:53:56 stevei has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1407 2013-08-29 19:54:21 <ThomasV> oh this idea is not implemented yet?
1408 2013-08-29 19:54:32 <petertodd> ThomasV: dunno
1409 2013-08-29 19:54:55 <ThomasV> that's what I was trying to see in my client :P
1410 2013-08-29 19:55:00 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1411 2013-08-29 19:55:16 <gmaxwell> It appears kinda implemented, in that you can pick which stream your address is on, but none of the logic for handling this automatically is there.
1412 2013-08-29 19:55:16 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1413 2013-08-29 19:55:32 patcon has joined
1414 2013-08-29 19:55:39 <petertodd> ThomasV: be warned that bitmessage has a serious privacy hole right now, because even if you are receive only you'll give out your pubkey on demand, so that can be used to track you down
1415 2013-08-29 19:55:46 stevei has joined
1416 2013-08-29 19:56:03 <petertodd> ThomasV: see http://secupost.net/
1417 2013-08-29 19:56:10 <ThomasV> I see. I'll stick to gmail then :D
1418 2013-08-29 19:56:16 <gmaxwell> petertodd: they at least added random delays in the responses to those messages. It still allows a network attacker who has surrounded you to identify you.
1419 2013-08-29 19:56:41 <gmaxwell> petertodd: that guy identified people with a address-culling and phishing attack.
1420 2013-08-29 19:56:47 patcon_ has joined
1421 2013-08-29 19:56:55 <gmaxwell> didn't even use the pubkey request deanon.
1422 2013-08-29 19:57:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, not good given the likely small size of the network
1423 2013-08-29 19:57:05 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1424 2013-08-29 19:57:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, I'll admit I hadn't actually read that thing in detail
1425 2013-08-29 19:58:17 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the same design problem that makes that pubkey attack possible means you can sniff the network for pubkey requests and make a list of all active bitmessage addresses (enumeration attack).
1426 2013-08-29 19:58:28 <michagogo> o_O
1427 2013-08-29 19:58:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: bad...
1428 2013-08-29 19:58:39 <michagogo> Have you guys seen the thing about the سÙ
ÙÙÙÙÙÙÙÙØØ® Ì·Ì´ÌØ® Ì·Ì´ÌØ® Ì·Ì´ÌØ® اÙ
ارتÙØ® Ì·Ì´ÌØ® crash?
1429 2013-08-29 19:58:41 nsillik has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1430 2013-08-29 19:58:49 <petertodd> michagogo: ?
1431 2013-08-29 19:59:02 <gmaxwell> And then you can send a message to all of them, "Critical security alert: go to this URL http://?hmac(dest addr)"
1432 2013-08-29 19:59:12 <michagogo> Apparently viewing a webpage with that string on an iOS or OS X device will cause the app to crash
1433 2013-08-29 19:59:22 <gmaxwell> michagogo: I saw someone spamming #bitcoin earlier with some of those gliphs.
1434 2013-08-29 19:59:22 <petertodd> michagogo: oh, dunno about that
1435 2013-08-29 19:59:34 <michagogo> gmaxwell: That string?
1436 2013-08-29 19:59:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: So, if you were to implement bitmessage, how would you have done it?
1437 2013-08-29 19:59:43 <michagogo> Or something else in Arabic?
1438 2013-08-29 19:59:50 UukGoblin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1439 2013-08-29 19:59:54 <ThomasV> does the string mean something?
1440 2013-08-29 19:59:55 <gmaxwell> 12:17 < Tiraspol> Ø® Ì·Ì´ÌØ®
1441 2013-08-29 19:59:55 <gmaxwell> 12:17 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-72-130-129-115.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
1442 2013-08-29 19:59:58 <gmaxwell> 12:17 -!- scryb3 [~scrybe@63-252-196-250.ip.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
1443 2013-08-29 20:00:01 <gmaxwell> 12:17 -!- meba [~meba@CPE-72-135-209-115.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
1444 2013-08-29 20:00:04 <gmaxwell> 12:17 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@64-142-68-61.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
1445 2013-08-29 20:00:13 <michagogo> ThomasV: No idea
1446 2013-08-29 20:00:41 <michagogo> Google Translate translates it to "Smoouhkh Ì·Ì´Ì x Ì·Ì´Ì x x Ì·Ì´Ì Amartykh Ì·Ì´Ì x"
1447 2013-08-29 20:02:07 <ThomasV> maaku: are you still working on the utxo hashtree?
1448 2013-08-29 20:02:16 <michagogo> Uh-oh
1449 2013-08-29 20:02:31 <michagogo> It looks like saying that string in IRC can cause crashes as well...
1450 2013-08-29 20:03:27 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1451 2013-08-29 20:04:03 <gmaxwell> OT in any case
1452 2013-08-29 20:04:56 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1453 2013-08-29 20:06:23 nitrous_ has joined
1454 2013-08-29 20:06:40 <ThomasV> the Monty Python's IRC client: it crashes when it sees the string "OT"
1455 2013-08-29 20:06:40 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1456 2013-08-29 20:07:20 asuk has quit (Quit: asuk)
1457 2013-08-29 20:08:37 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2952
1458 2013-08-29 20:08:39 <phantomcircuit> how you like me now
1459 2013-08-29 20:09:54 asuk has joined
1460 2013-08-29 20:10:24 reneg has joined
1461 2013-08-29 20:10:24 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: cool. How did you deal with the fact that cached results change when a new block comes in and confirms some of the transactions?
1462 2013-08-29 20:11:05 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the cache is only valid in the IsConfirmed call
1463 2013-08-29 20:11:17 <phantomcircuit> which is only called from things holding cs_main
1464 2013-08-29 20:11:36 <gmaxwell> gotcha, so you're only memoizing within one execution of the overall algorithim, not across them. Makes sense.
1465 2013-08-29 20:12:11 <phantomcircuit> yeah the cache is just so that this operates breadth first instead of breadth first and then everything against a few million times
1466 2013-08-29 20:12:38 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1467 2013-08-29 20:14:11 <jgarzik> random: so far, Avalon > BFL, in terms of reliability
1468 2013-08-29 20:14:15 namnatulco has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1469 2013-08-29 20:14:51 asuk has quit ()
1470 2013-08-29 20:15:36 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1471 2013-08-29 20:16:03 asuk has joined
1472 2013-08-29 20:16:17 nsh has joined
1473 2013-08-29 20:17:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, 1.25 * e ^ (0.107 * x)
1474 2013-08-29 20:17:19 reneg_ has joined
1475 2013-08-29 20:17:25 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1476 2013-08-29 20:17:26 <sipa> jgarzik: and the erupters?
1477 2013-08-29 20:17:36 <phantomcircuit> the time to calculate one transaction is growing exponentially
1478 2013-08-29 20:18:24 <phantomcircuit> which means overall complexity is like cubic time?
1479 2013-08-29 20:18:28 <phantomcircuit> eh something like that
1480 2013-08-29 20:18:35 <phantomcircuit> no it's uh
1481 2013-08-29 20:18:40 <gmaxwell> if it's growing exponential, then it's exponential time. :P
1482 2013-08-29 20:18:46 <phantomcircuit> yeah that
1483 2013-08-29 20:18:57 chorao has joined
1484 2013-08-29 20:19:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well the time per n is growing exponentially
1485 2013-08-29 20:19:11 <phantomcircuit> 1.25 * e ^ (0.107 * x) * x
1486 2013-08-29 20:19:14 <phantomcircuit> overall
1487 2013-08-29 20:19:22 <phantomcircuit> whatever
1488 2013-08-29 20:19:31 <phantomcircuit> terribly horribly slow
1489 2013-08-29 20:19:40 * jgarzik hides his head in shame, from sipa
1490 2013-08-29 20:19:51 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: if only someone had told you this before. :P
1491 2013-08-29 20:19:51 <gmaxwell> 15:24 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: if you have a bunch of unconfimed change txn in you wallet (e.g. from breaking up single big inputs, like mtgox does due to offline wallet usage) then the cpu cost of selecting inputs grows exponentially with the number of unconfirmed txn in your wallet.
1492 2013-08-29 20:19:59 <jgarzik> sipa, too slack to set them up. A BitPay officemate bought one from me, and his works great with bfgminer.
1493 2013-08-29 20:20:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
1494 2013-08-29 20:20:27 <sipa> jgarzik: i'm mining with them on p2pool... nothing after 2 days :(
1495 2013-08-29 20:20:29 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: though I never bothered working out that exact algorithimic complexity, it did appear to be exponential.
1496 2013-08-29 20:20:42 <sipa> poisson processes are a bitch
1497 2013-08-29 20:20:50 <jgarzik> sipa, yeah, they are such little hashpower these days
1498 2013-08-29 20:20:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i believe that's almost entirely IsConfirmed
1499 2013-08-29 20:20:58 UukGoblin has joined
1500 2013-08-29 20:21:01 <phantomcircuit> that the actual coinselection is much better than that
1501 2013-08-29 20:21:04 <sipa> jgarzik: expected time to a share is 1 day...
1502 2013-08-29 20:21:06 <jgarzik> sipa, my 60GH Avalons will be obsolete and annoyingly slow in another 6 months
1503 2013-08-29 20:21:28 <sipa> jgarzik: dude
1504 2013-08-29 20:21:29 <phantomcircuit> and this is why i dont mine
1505 2013-08-29 20:21:36 <sipa> i have 12 GH/s total
1506 2013-08-29 20:21:37 <phantomcircuit> ROI is too random
1507 2013-08-29 20:21:51 <jgarzik> "we have petahashes on order" from multiple parties
1508 2013-08-29 20:21:55 <jgarzik> sigh
1509 2013-08-29 20:22:04 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, from who?
1510 2013-08-29 20:22:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I dunno about that. 6 months from now will be interesting.
1511 2013-08-29 20:22:14 * sipa wonders when the apparently-exponential growth will stop
1512 2013-08-29 20:22:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: when mining becomes not-insanely-profitable again.
1513 2013-08-29 20:22:31 <sipa> once the market gets saturated with asics, the growth pattern should change
1514 2013-08-29 20:22:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: when difficulty catches up to preorders :/
1515 2013-08-29 20:22:44 * Luke-Jr stabs preorders
1516 2013-08-29 20:22:56 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i'd be pretty surprised if most people with preorders end up with an ROI > 1
1517 2013-08-29 20:23:08 <Luke-Jr> next year, I'll be picking up ASICs for cost of shipping
1518 2013-08-29 20:23:10 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1519 2013-08-29 20:23:13 <jgarzik> Avalon and BFL have both publicly sworn off preorders twice now, each
1520 2013-08-29 20:23:24 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, and then not done it
1521 2013-08-29 20:23:25 <phantomcircuit> lol
1522 2013-08-29 20:23:27 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: yet they still do it!
1523 2013-08-29 20:23:31 <jgarzik> yet, demand continues to exceed supply
1524 2013-08-29 20:24:33 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ok so im not going to keep calculating this since 1.25 * e ^ (0.107 * 300) = 109084458998830
1525 2013-08-29 20:24:58 <jgarzik> this is why I remain tempted to sell Avalon #1Â
in some months, when all these 500GH machines are shipping in volume, nobody but the Smithsonian will want it
1526 2013-08-29 20:25:02 reneg_ has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1527 2013-08-29 20:25:12 <gmaxwell> it takes a difficulty of 388,555,153 in order to make my avalon on insane 0.35/kwh power only make $2 in bitcoin for every $1 in power spent to power it.
1528 2013-08-29 20:25:16 patcon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1529 2013-08-29 20:25:32 <sipa> ;;diff
1530 2013-08-29 20:25:33 <gribble> 6.5750060149084814E7
1531 2013-08-29 20:25:33 <gmaxwell> s/only/_only_/
1532 2013-08-29 20:25:46 patcon has joined
1533 2013-08-29 20:25:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: move to switzerland!
1534 2013-08-29 20:26:00 <jgarzik> paid-for GPU hardware continues to remain very marginally profitable at > $100/bitcoin, according to some
1535 2013-08-29 20:26:01 reneg has joined
1536 2013-08-29 20:26:19 <gmaxwell> avalon breakeven difficulty on $0.35 power for $118/btc is 777,110,307
1537 2013-08-29 20:26:39 bmcgee has joined
1538 2013-08-29 20:26:43 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, there's a lot of places with very cheap power
1539 2013-08-29 20:27:13 namnatulco has joined
1540 2013-08-29 20:27:16 asuk is now known as asuk|afk
1541 2013-08-29 20:27:20 * michagogo nags jgarzik again
1542 2013-08-29 20:27:22 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, where such valuable machines may be locatedÂ
with trust they won't be stolen, if the owner is remote?
1543 2013-08-29 20:27:34 minty has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1544 2013-08-29 20:27:41 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, most places with cheap power are actually fairly law abiding
1545 2013-08-29 20:28:02 <phantomcircuit> since it's usually cheap due to subsidies
1546 2013-08-29 20:28:09 <gmaxwell> avalon breakeven diff formula for $118 is 271988607.636 / ($kwh)
1547 2013-08-29 20:28:10 <phantomcircuit> power in remote weird places isn't cheap :)
1548 2013-08-29 20:28:11 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, sure. but you still gotta keep your mining farm secret, and find trustworthy operators
1549 2013-08-29 20:28:35 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, eh...
1550 2013-08-29 20:28:36 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, even in US and other civilized, we-only-bomb-the-middle-east-a-little-bit countries
1551 2013-08-29 20:28:49 <gmaxwell> so 0.06 power, like I paid in VA requires a difficulty of 4,533,143,460 before the avalon just becomes a more anonymous way to buy bitcoin.
1552 2013-08-29 20:28:57 <phantomcircuit> i'd setup a mining farm in kuwait except im not sure what i'd do with the heat
1553 2013-08-29 20:29:07 <phantomcircuit> next on the list is russia
1554 2013-08-29 20:29:07 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1555 2013-08-29 20:29:18 <jgarzik> Canada/BC
1556 2013-08-29 20:29:41 <phantomcircuit> iirc canada is only cheap for specific types of usage
1557 2013-08-29 20:29:44 <gmaxwell> so I am perhaps a little skeptical of claims of the avalon becoming worthless in six monthsâ even with "500gh/s" devices coming online, but we'll see.
1558 2013-08-29 20:29:45 <phantomcircuit> maybe im wrong though
1559 2013-08-29 20:30:07 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, who is supposedly selling these 500 gh/s devices
1560 2013-08-29 20:30:08 <phantomcircuit> ?
1561 2013-08-29 20:30:31 <gmaxwell> hashfash, KNC
1562 2013-08-29 20:30:44 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1567 2013-08-29 20:31:53 <gmaxwell> Their power efficiency claims are really ambitious though, even on 28nm. I expect we're going to see yet another wave of newbie vendors who think standard power analysis tools give correct results for miners (they don't) producing failware.
1568 2013-08-29 20:32:42 <helo> would it be interesting to start an altcoin that would distribute its full currency allotment to (alternately constructed) altcoin addresses generated from bitcoin public keys that have been active in the last <some number> months, with mining being funded entirely by transaction fees from the start?
1569 2013-08-29 20:32:45 asuk is now known as afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|asuk
1570 2013-08-29 20:32:54 <gmaxwell> most power analysis tools assume a logic toggle rate of only a few percent... vs miners have almost all their logic with a 50% toggle rate. The power estimates are usually way off...
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1572 2013-08-29 20:33:09 <deego> helo: No :)
1573 2013-08-29 20:33:14 <gmaxwell> helo: tumbleweed coin
1574 2013-08-29 20:33:45 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
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1576 2013-08-29 20:35:28 <helo> "some people" seem to be afraid that the some evil entity could have designed bitcoin, and due to early mining will become massively rich as bitcoin continues to grow
1577 2013-08-29 20:36:29 <gmaxwell> helo: some people will randomly make up stuff no matter what you do. ::shrugs::
1578 2013-08-29 20:36:38 <helo> but some evil entity could design this altcoin, and have done the necessary dance to ensure they'd be the rich ones upon adoption
1579 2013-08-29 20:36:40 <deego> I never understand: If that's their concern, there's nothing holding these people from being early adopters /right now./
1580 2013-08-29 20:36:53 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
1581 2013-08-29 20:37:15 <nitrous_> But people could see it in the blockchain
1582 2013-08-29 20:37:23 <nitrous_> and would avoid it
1583 2013-08-29 20:37:37 <nitrous_> Premining and such
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1586 2013-08-29 20:40:00 <helo> it would be kind of nice to have a system that was shown to be useful and secure while being entirely funded by transaction fees
1587 2013-08-29 20:40:35 <nitrous_> Isn't bitcoin supposed to be funded by transaction fees alone once all the btc have been mined?
1588 2013-08-29 20:40:54 <helo> there's a bit of trepidation over how things will be security- and fee-wise once transactions have to start coughing up the goods
1589 2013-08-29 20:41:07 <helo> nitrous_: yes
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1595 2013-08-29 20:48:24 <Krellan> Luke-Jr: I have those 2 pull requests ready for bfgminer, for floating-point printf rounding.
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1601 2013-08-29 20:54:23 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: great, thanks; I'll probably merge and release within 24 h
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1603 2013-08-29 20:57:40 <Krellan> Cool thanks - Check them first, of course :)
1604 2013-08-29 20:58:14 <Krellan> Lots of exciting bfgminer changes in the latest upstream, I have noticed, lots of Erupter driver tweaks.
1605 2013-08-29 21:02:38 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1606 2013-08-29 21:02:52 <Luke-Jr> âº
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1608 2013-08-29 21:06:41 <phantomcircuit> the correct way to check that a transaction is in the blockchain is tx.GetDepthInMainChain() > 0
1609 2013-08-29 21:06:43 <phantomcircuit> correct?
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1611 2013-08-29 21:07:27 michagogo has quit (Quit: Goodnight, and if you're on a Mac or iOS device, beware of people sending you the string of Arabic text shown in http://pastebin.com/tyJ6RraZ, which translates to "Smoouhkh Ì·Ì´Ì x Ì·Ì´Ì x x Ì·Ì´Ì Amartykh Ì·Ì´Ì x")
1612 2013-08-29 21:07:27 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, you know the answer to the above question?
1613 2013-08-29 21:07:31 <phantomcircuit> it seems right...
1614 2013-08-29 21:07:47 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I think so
1615 2013-08-29 21:08:04 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes
1616 2013-08-29 21:08:28 <sipa> there's also an IsInMainChain()
1617 2013-08-29 21:08:45 <sipa> which just calls GetDepthInMainChain, really
1618 2013-08-29 21:09:02 <phantomcircuit> slightly cleaner though
1619 2013-08-29 21:09:32 <sipa> oh
1620 2013-08-29 21:10:05 <sipa> no it doesn't
1621 2013-08-29 21:10:42 <phantomcircuit> sipa, mapWalletPrev
1622 2013-08-29 21:10:54 <phantomcircuit> that doesn't appear to be initialized when the wallet is loaded
1623 2013-08-29 21:11:13 <phantomcircuit> but previous transactions are added to it when you create a transaction
1624 2013-08-29 21:11:30 <phantomcircuit> er
1625 2013-08-29 21:11:31 <phantomcircuit> nvm
1626 2013-08-29 21:11:33 <phantomcircuit> ignore me
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1628 2013-08-29 21:12:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, actually AddSupportingTransactions appears to be pulling the supporting transactions from pwallet->mapWallet
1629 2013-08-29 21:12:19 <phantomcircuit> which would imply that the transactions in vtxPrev are in mapWallet
1630 2013-08-29 21:12:28 <phantomcircuit> but possibly not saved to the wallet.dat file?
1631 2013-08-29 21:12:39 <sipa> if they're in mapWallet, they're saved
1632 2013-08-29 21:13:33 <phantomcircuit> anv vchPrev is also serialized with the transaction
1633 2013-08-29 21:13:48 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1634 2013-08-29 21:13:49 <phantomcircuit> that might start to explain why wallet.dat isn't smaller
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1660 2013-08-29 21:57:18 <mrkent> are there min requirements for bitcoind?
1661 2013-08-29 21:58:48 <Luke-Jr> 50 GB RAM, 430 TB disk, 16 cores 40 GHz
1662 2013-08-29 21:59:24 <warren> sipa: FYI, regarding your suggestion for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2888 pooler has now implemented it in https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/pull/69 although we aren't submitting it to the bitcoin PR yet as coblee wants to write tests first.
1663 2013-08-29 21:59:41 <phantomcircuit> mrkent, no but the more resources you throw at it the faster it gets
1664 2013-08-29 21:59:45 <sipa> warren: cool
1665 2013-08-29 21:59:50 <phantomcircuit> with exception of disk space (but not speed)
1666 2013-08-29 21:59:57 <sipa> mrkent: 512 MB RAM, 12 GB disk is probably a minimum now
1667 2013-08-29 21:59:59 ThomasV has joined
1668 2013-08-29 22:00:42 <mrkent> phantomcircuit, sipa: seems like 512 is not enough.
1669 2013-08-29 22:00:57 <mrkent> upgraded server to 1gb to see
1670 2013-08-29 22:01:03 <phantomcircuit> mrkent, that depends on the disk speed
1671 2013-08-29 22:01:10 <phantomcircuit> 256MB is enough if you have an ssd
1672 2013-08-29 22:01:32 <sipa> limiting network connections, db cache and network buffers helps
1673 2013-08-29 22:02:29 <mrkent> phantomcircuit, it's ssd in fact
1674 2013-08-29 22:03:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the main thing is that during verification any significant amount of utxo lookup will cause disk activity unless you're pretty close to 100% in cache
1675 2013-08-29 22:03:23 <sipa> sure
1676 2013-08-29 22:06:32 Elmf has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1677 2013-08-29 22:06:40 <phantomcircuit> mrkent, if it's a vps... are you sure?
1678 2013-08-29 22:06:58 <sipa> why would it be a vps?
1679 2013-08-29 22:07:06 <sipa> ah
1680 2013-08-29 22:07:13 <phantomcircuit> because what kind of server gets upgraded to 1GB
1681 2013-08-29 22:07:16 <Luke-Jr> because real systems have more memory
1682 2013-08-29 22:07:16 <sipa> right
1683 2013-08-29 22:07:17 <Luke-Jr> :P
1684 2013-08-29 22:07:35 <mrkent> phantomcircuit, using digitalocean
1685 2013-08-29 22:07:50 Elmf has joined
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1687 2013-08-29 22:09:12 <gmaxwell> RSS on my node on my laptop is 252 MB... 512 mb should be okay.
1688 2013-08-29 22:09:19 <gmaxwell> mrkent: why do you say 512 is not enough?
1689 2013-08-29 22:10:04 <CodeShark> nobody should ever need more than 640k
1690 2013-08-29 22:10:20 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1691 2013-08-29 22:11:52 <mrkent> gmaxwell, not sure, but blockchain isn't being processed
1692 2013-08-29 22:12:02 <sipa> that can have many reasons
1693 2013-08-29 22:12:05 <sipa> what happens?
1694 2013-08-29 22:12:08 <warren> sipa: network buffers is an option?
1695 2013-08-29 22:12:13 <sipa> warren: yes
1696 2013-08-29 22:12:18 <gmaxwell> none of which are having enough ram, unless there is some really novel bug I'm unaware of.
1697 2013-08-29 22:12:19 <warren> hm
1698 2013-08-29 22:12:26 <sipa> -maxsendbuffer and -maxreceivebuffer
1699 2013-08-29 22:12:34 <warren> gmaxwell: btw, have you noticed bitcoind uses a LOT more RAM on fedora/centos than ubuntu?
1700 2013-08-29 22:12:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not having*
1701 2013-08-29 22:12:51 <gmaxwell> warren: no. A lot more VIRT, perhaps, but thats irrelevant.
1702 2013-08-29 22:12:57 <warren> gmaxwell: RES
1703 2013-08-29 22:13:09 <warren> gmaxwell: we're seeing consistent 200MB difference between ubuntu and fedora
1704 2013-08-29 22:13:17 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1705 2013-08-29 22:13:18 <gmaxwell> warren: then you have something broken.
1706 2013-08-29 22:13:36 <gmaxwell> I'm on fedora and resident is 252mb.
1707 2013-08-29 22:13:52 <warren> i'll confirm this with bitcoind and litecoind in parallel... will report later
1708 2013-08-29 22:14:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: he means the Ubuntu-built static binaries
1709 2013-08-29 22:14:05 <mrkent> ya i don't know what i'm talking about
1710 2013-08-29 22:14:13 <mrkent> what's the recommended specs then?
1711 2013-08-29 22:14:27 <sipa> mrkent: well, first of all... the chain not processing is a problem
1712 2013-08-29 22:14:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the Ubuntu-built static binaries can't use 200 mb less than my 252 mb. :)
1713 2013-08-29 22:14:39 <sipa> mrkent: let's fix the problem first before we go optimize performance
1714 2013-08-29 22:14:47 <sipa> mrkent: how do you know it's not being processed?
1715 2013-08-29 22:14:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no, but they might use 200 MB more
1716 2013-08-29 22:15:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: perhaps Linux is doing memory de-dupe or something
1717 2013-08-29 22:15:21 <warren> but yes, I mean the gitian static binaries running on Fedora and Ubuntu, on fedora it uses 200MB more RES
1718 2013-08-29 22:15:46 Application has joined
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1720 2013-08-29 22:16:12 <gmaxwell> "the majority of the hashrate on the network is provided by Butterfly Labs equipment." [citation needed]
1721 2013-08-29 22:16:14 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, that wouldn't help at all with bitcoin
1722 2013-08-29 22:16:16 <mrkent> sipa, i actually have to go now, I'll get back to you. appreciate help though
1723 2013-08-29 22:16:29 maaku has joined
1724 2013-08-29 22:16:33 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I presume they know how much they've shipped
1725 2013-08-29 22:16:51 maaku is now known as Guest33759
1726 2013-08-29 22:17:26 <phantomcircuit> can someone spare some testnet coins
1727 2013-08-29 22:17:27 <phantomcircuit> mnLgsosptBdh9tLi8Cu8vAVfnRyQdubvMi
1728 2013-08-29 22:17:33 * phantomcircuit holds out hat
1729 2013-08-29 22:18:07 Guest33759 has left ()
1730 2013-08-29 22:18:09 <phantomcircuit> tried two faucets which said they sent them but nothing
1731 2013-08-29 22:18:17 <phantomcircuit> i should keep a strategic testnet coin reserve
1732 2013-08-29 22:20:01 <phantomcircuit> nvm
1733 2013-08-29 22:21:00 <CodeShark> can
1734 2013-08-29 22:21:07 <CodeShark> can't you still mine testnet on CPU?
1735 2013-08-29 22:21:13 <phantomcircuit> i realized one of them was a liar
1736 2013-08-29 22:21:22 <phantomcircuit> (their captcha code is broken)
1737 2013-08-29 22:21:40 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, sure but then you have to wait 120 confirms
1738 2013-08-29 22:21:58 <phantomcircuit> i have an nvidia gpu also
1739 2013-08-29 22:22:01 <phantomcircuit> but why break testnet
1740 2013-08-29 22:22:31 <jgarzik> one sec
1741 2013-08-29 22:22:40 bmcgee has joined
1742 2013-08-29 22:23:22 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, there ya go
1743 2013-08-29 22:23:31 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, oh i already had some
1744 2013-08-29 22:23:32 <phantomcircuit> lol
1745 2013-08-29 22:23:48 <phantomcircuit> i figured out the faucets success message was a lie
1746 2013-08-29 22:23:53 <phantomcircuit> so i did the captcha a few more times
1747 2013-08-29 22:24:00 <phantomcircuit> also i confirmed what i suspected
1748 2013-08-29 22:24:09 <phantomcircuit> so that's cool
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1754 2013-08-29 22:30:16 <maaku> stupid CoreText problem
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1771 2013-08-29 22:57:41 <gavinandresen> Sorry for accidentally spamming⦠I was running a "sleep / wake 300 times while reindexing the chain on 0.8.3" to try to reproduce the leveldb corruption, and forgot to shutdown my IRC client.
1772 2013-08-29 22:57:50 <gavinandresen> (no luck reproducing, by the way)
1773 2013-08-29 22:58:09 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: hah! good try!
1774 2013-08-29 22:58:11 <gmaxwell> darnit.
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1797 2013-08-29 23:18:00 <warren> gavinandresen: btw, we're getting reports from Windows 8 users of leveldb corruption after a failed hibernate/wake cycle on 0.8.3.x
1798 2013-08-29 23:18:02 <warren> sipa: ^
1799 2013-08-29 23:18:10 patcon has joined
1800 2013-08-29 23:18:16 <warren> we're asking him to test a build with leveldb 1.13
1801 2013-08-29 23:18:26 <sipa> that'd be interesting
1802 2013-08-29 23:18:42 <sipa> but is the corruption reproducible?
1803 2013-08-29 23:19:22 reneg has joined
1804 2013-08-29 23:19:48 <warren> sipa: dunno, my mom has a windows 8 machine at home so I'll test it a bit later.
1805 2013-08-29 23:20:01 <warren> I'm kind of far from there though
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1808 2013-08-29 23:22:39 <gmaxwell> someone really needs to make a network block device 'server' daemon that stores transcript of write activity and can then let you mount FSs generated as if they'd been shutoff at requested points.
1809 2013-08-29 23:22:42 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1810 2013-08-29 23:22:54 <gmaxwell> Then you could just step throug a transacript and ask "is every failure point recoverable?"
1811 2013-08-29 23:23:03 Gue______ has joined
1812 2013-08-29 23:23:07 <gmaxwell> (and who cares if it take a month to run)
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1814 2013-08-29 23:23:26 <maaku> gmaxwell: i would be very suprised if such tools didn't exist for linux file system developers
1815 2013-08-29 23:23:38 <sipa> if only we had someone with experience with linux kernel development...
1816 2013-08-29 23:23:49 <maaku> e.g, mount over loopback with IO logging
1817 2013-08-29 23:23:49 <gmaxwell> maaku: I _REALLY_ though such a thing did exist, I would have sworn by it, but I can't find it and I asked some FS developers and they hadn't heard of it.
1818 2013-08-29 23:24:26 AusBitBank has joined
1819 2013-08-29 23:24:32 <gmaxwell> maaku: there is even a network block device protocol which is really simple, so the server for this could just be nice userspace code.. no kernel development required except for when you crash the kernel by breaking filesystems. :P
1820 2013-08-29 23:25:24 <Belxjander> userpace filesystem?
1821 2013-08-29 23:25:29 <gmaxwell> no.
1822 2013-08-29 23:25:33 <sipa> well NBD had the extra advantage that the userspace server is on a different machine
1823 2013-08-29 23:25:42 <Belxjander> hrmm
1824 2013-08-29 23:25:48 <sipa> so it wouldn't crash along with the filesystem running on it
1825 2013-08-29 23:26:21 <Belxjander> he kernel doesn't retain filesystems inside itself on AmigaOS... everything is userspace with a very limited kernel space defined
1826 2013-08-29 23:26:49 <gmaxwell> Could just be as simple as a regular NBD server the seralizes a write log.. and then a tool to reinitialize a disk image using the log. (though having to rewrite the image between tests would be kinda slow)
1827 2013-08-29 23:28:32 <gmaxwell> e.g. take a disk image of a working bitcoin node. Start it up under write loging.. give it two more blocks. shut it down... then restart N_writes times, recovering back to the start each time and playing forward one write, then starting up the client and adding one more block.
1828 2013-08-29 23:28:36 <sipa> well if you don't plan to do any server-side error recovery, it could just be something like a huge time+position indexed map, in an mmap() memory area
1829 2013-08-29 23:29:13 <sipa> or put it on ZFS/btrfs, and take snapshots of the logfile
1830 2013-08-29 23:29:20 Gue______ has joined
1831 2013-08-29 23:29:32 <gmaxwell> Something lower level might be easier to do, and would also catch FS bugs.
1832 2013-08-29 23:29:40 <sipa> hmm?
1833 2013-08-29 23:29:46 <sipa> i mean on the server side
1834 2013-08-29 23:29:54 <gmaxwell> ah okay. gotcha.
1835 2013-08-29 23:30:09 <gmaxwell> (I thought you meant mucking with the filesystem internal journaling)
1836 2013-08-29 23:30:47 <sipa> basically an image file you serve via NBD, stored on a checkpointable filesystem
1837 2013-08-29 23:31:02 <sipa> though you may need some hacking to make it have stable snapshot points
1838 2013-08-29 23:31:11 * warren has hundreds of machines with swap over NBD ...
1839 2013-08-29 23:31:56 <maaku> there has got to be a way to record each write to a file
1840 2013-08-29 23:32:13 <maaku> then mount loopback filesystem, record writes
1841 2013-08-29 23:32:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: might be hard to get that to give you every single write offset.. also, it would be useful to simulate the last write being corrupted.
1842 2013-08-29 23:32:23 <sipa> righ
1843 2013-08-29 23:32:24 <sipa> t
1844 2013-08-29 23:32:34 <sipa> yes, you'd only be able to do occassional checkpoints
1845 2013-08-29 23:33:00 <gmaxwell> though random ones might be enough to catch some bugs.
1846 2013-08-29 23:33:30 <sipa> at least it'd be easier to implement than a block device driver from scratch :)
1847 2013-08-29 23:33:38 tyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1848 2013-08-29 23:35:36 <gmaxwell> oh, well I wasn't suggesting from scratch: http://nbd.sourceforge.net/
1849 2013-08-29 23:36:07 <gmaxwell> I don't know how any filesystems work without this kind of tool already existing. :-/
1850 2013-08-29 23:36:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, use leveldb and snapshots to record sector values for the NBD server
1851 2013-08-29 23:36:26 <phantomcircuit> leveldb crashes
1852 2013-08-29 23:36:29 <phantomcircuit> infinite debug loop
1853 2013-08-29 23:36:34 <sipa> we must go deeper
1854 2013-08-29 23:37:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, im not sure ZFS would work very well if you checkpointed every single write
1855 2013-08-29 23:37:41 <phantomcircuit> :)
1856 2013-08-29 23:37:55 stephantual has joined
1857 2013-08-29 23:38:14 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: that idea wouldn't have you checkpoint every single write.. just random ones.
1858 2013-08-29 23:38:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i was joking
1859 2013-08-29 23:38:31 <gmaxwell> you could run nbd.. and just insert a random check after it does a write to the image and calls the snapshot command.
1860 2013-08-29 23:38:37 <jgarzik> sipa, you know people who have implemented block drivers from scratch before...
1861 2013-08-29 23:38:41 <phantomcircuit> it shouldn't be super hard to modify nbd to write a journal like that
1862 2013-08-29 23:38:50 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, REALLY WHO????
1863 2013-08-29 23:38:52 * phantomcircuit runs
1864 2013-08-29 23:39:12 <jgarzik> NBD is just a gloriously beautiful thing that works great until its mission critical :)
1865 2013-08-29 23:39:32 <jgarzik> I've used it quite often
1866 2013-08-29 23:39:42 <phantomcircuit> i like how we're discussing building an entire new class of debugging tool for the sole purpose of fixing a relatively uncommon and recoverable error in bitcoin
1867 2013-08-29 23:40:17 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1868 2013-08-29 23:40:54 <jgarzik> I want to implement block chain reorgs using filesystem (or even better, machine!) snapshots
1869 2013-08-29 23:41:04 <gmaxwell> at least it's a class of tool that I'm shocked doesn't exist already. :-/
1870 2013-08-29 23:41:09 <jgarzik> that way, the TX index is already in its proper state, no need for replaying ;p
1871 2013-08-29 23:41:14 <sipa> you leveldb does supports snapshots?
1872 2013-08-29 23:41:15 * sipa runs
1873 2013-08-29 23:41:23 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: O.o
1874 2013-08-29 23:41:29 <jgarzik> yep :)
1875 2013-08-29 23:41:38 PrimeStunna has quit (Quit: PrimeStunna)
1876 2013-08-29 23:41:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it does and i it scares me
1877 2013-08-29 23:41:41 <sipa> jgarzik: may make sense for the last few blocks
1878 2013-08-29 23:41:53 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I think you just want a kernel-mode bitcoind <.<
1879 2013-08-29 23:41:54 <jgarzik> noticed that when "cp include/leveldb/c.h pgdb.h" began my project for a leveldb replacement in C
1880 2013-08-29 23:42:01 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, I admit it!
1881 2013-08-29 23:42:03 <Luke-Jr> or heck, everything in a single kernel
1882 2013-08-29 23:42:09 mrkent has joined
1883 2013-08-29 23:42:09 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
1884 2013-08-29 23:42:09 mrkent has joined
1885 2013-08-29 23:42:10 <jgarzik> I want to write device drivers in Perl, too
1886 2013-08-29 23:42:14 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1887 2013-08-29 23:42:19 <phantomcircuit> lol
1888 2013-08-29 23:42:26 <sipa> jgarzik: i did write filesystems in perl :p
1889 2013-08-29 23:42:27 <sipa> (fuse)
1890 2013-08-29 23:42:35 one_zero has joined
1891 2013-08-29 23:42:41 Gue______ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1892 2013-08-29 23:44:18 * jgarzik tries to recall if he did the same
1893 2013-08-29 23:44:35 <jgarzik> I wrote several FUSE filesystems in CÂ
could have sworn I did one in a scripting language too
1894 2013-08-29 23:44:53 Gues_____ has joined
1895 2013-08-29 23:46:16 <bizoro> device drivers in perl... x.x
1896 2013-08-29 23:46:28 <jgarzik> text data bss dec hex filename
1897 2013-08-29 23:46:29 <jgarzik> 2335 8 1 2344 928 json_driver.o
1898 2013-08-29 23:46:29 <jgarzik> 10030 8 1 10039 2737 json.lex.o
1899 2013-08-29 23:46:29 <jgarzik> 33483 8 1 33492 82d4 json.tab.o
1900 2013-08-29 23:46:41 nomailing has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1901 2013-08-29 23:46:45 <jgarzik> Now that is just so much better than json_spirit
1902 2013-08-29 23:46:56 <bizoro> jgarzik: why would you do that?
1903 2013-08-29 23:47:33 <jgarzik> bizoro, because json_spirit drops multi-megabyte turds on unsuspected, innocent little programs
1904 2013-08-29 23:47:33 <phantomcircuit> he's trying to fix the shitty json parser bitcoin rpc is using
1905 2013-08-29 23:47:45 <jgarzik> *unsuspecting
1906 2013-08-29 23:48:06 <sipa> ... anyone heard of fastcoin?
1907 2013-08-29 23:48:13 <jgarzik> yes
1908 2013-08-29 23:48:27 <sipa> 12 second blocks, and 4 blocks for full confirmations
1909 2013-08-29 23:48:30 <sipa> :D
1910 2013-08-29 23:49:24 <jgarzik> yes
1911 2013-08-29 23:49:40 <jgarzik> sipa, They contacted me, expressing interest in my UDP extensions, presumably to lower block latency
1912 2013-08-29 23:50:15 <sipa> ha
1913 2013-08-29 23:50:44 <sipa> loading their initial commit on github crashes my browser...
1914 2013-08-29 23:51:19 twobitcoins has joined
1915 2013-08-29 23:51:28 <sipa> bah, 0.6.3
1916 2013-08-29 23:52:00 * sipa ignores
1917 2013-08-29 23:52:15 Belxjander has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1918 2013-08-29 23:52:50 * jgarzik also points out: the above size(1) numbers are for a C++ lexer, C++ parser and C++ driver (glue class). None of that is straight C.
1919 2013-08-29 23:53:18 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1920 2013-08-29 23:53:46 Neozonz has joined
1921 2013-08-29 23:54:15 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1922 2013-08-29 23:54:44 * sipa .sleep(25000);
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