1 2013-08-31 00:00:10 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
   2 2013-08-31 00:00:53 <gmaxwell> I think we should add /Mozilla/  to the subver, since it seems that everyone thinks they need to copy "Satoshi"
   3 2013-08-31 00:03:45 <warren> I'll change it to Coblee
   4 2013-08-31 00:06:52 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
   5 2013-08-31 00:07:10 <mrkent> How do wallets prioritize which address to send coins from?
   6 2013-08-31 00:07:23 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
   7 2013-08-31 00:07:33 <mrkent> and why is it that no wallet displays the balance of individual addresses?
   8 2013-08-31 00:08:09 Application has joined
   9 2013-08-31 00:08:49 <gmaxwell> mrkent: because thats not how the system is supposted to be used.
  10 2013-08-31 00:09:08 <Diapolo> sweeeet I can use my HS to connect via Schildbachs Wallet App where I added my node as trusted node
  11 2013-08-31 00:09:11 <gmaxwell> thinking of address == account is a really bad model which will screw you up and confuse you.
  12 2013-08-31 00:09:11 <warren> mrkent: search for "Coin Control"
  13 2013-08-31 00:09:26 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: oh, does the android wallet support tor now?!
  14 2013-08-31 00:09:36 <warren> HS?
  15 2013-08-31 00:09:51 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I use orbot on my phone, which does transparent proxying
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  17 2013-08-31 00:10:28 <mrkent> gmaxwell, how so? Each address indeed has its own balance, and is more or less independent
  18 2013-08-31 00:10:30 <gmaxwell> ah. well, cool that onion works.
  19 2013-08-31 00:10:48 <gmaxwell> mrkent: it does not, in fact. each _payment_ is independant in the bitcoin system.
  20 2013-08-31 00:11:00 <gmaxwell> The blockchain really has no clue at all about addresses, it just tracks coins.
  21 2013-08-31 00:11:11 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: yeah pretty cool for a "phone"
  22 2013-08-31 00:11:22 <gmaxwell> The by address view you see on blockchain.info is a construct that the site generates by building a special database which is unlike the blockchain.
  23 2013-08-31 00:11:43 Transisto has joined
  24 2013-08-31 00:11:58 <mrkent> gmaxwell, what do you mean by "it just tracks coins"
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  27 2013-08-31 00:13:05 <gmaxwell> mrkent: a bitcoin transactions selects a number of previously unspent outputs, and then creates a number of new outputs. It's a good mental model to think of these outputs as metallic coins. They have a specific value, and they're created and spent atomically.
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  30 2013-08-31 00:15:40 <mrkent> and the outputs are addresses?
  31 2013-08-31 00:15:48 <Diapolo> What needs to be included for BOOST_FOREACH?
  32 2013-08-31 00:15:52 <mrkent> also not sure what you mean by atomically
  33 2013-08-31 00:17:51 <gmaxwell> mrkent: no, the outputs are scriptpubkeys (a small program that tells the network how to authenticate the payee when he redeems the coin) and coin values.
  34 2013-08-31 00:18:09 macboz has joined
  35 2013-08-31 00:18:24 <gmaxwell> mrkent: an output is creates as a single atomic unit and consumed as an atomic unit. There is no way to partially consume an input.
  36 2013-08-31 00:19:18 <gmaxwell> mrkent: say you have an empty wallet. I pay you 10 BTC in a single transaction. You now have a single 10 BTC coin.  To spend 1 BTC you must author a transaction consuming the 10 BTC coin and creating a 9 BTC output and a 1 BTC output.
  37 2013-08-31 00:19:31 <gmaxwell> (the 9 BTC output being paid back to yourself, usually at some other address)
  38 2013-08-31 00:19:46 <mrkent> ah, i see where you're getting at
  39 2013-08-31 00:20:20 <mrkent> but the change can be paid to the original address right?
  40 2013-08-31 00:20:23 Applicat_ has joined
  41 2013-08-31 00:20:47 <gmaxwell> mrkent: sites that explore the block and display addresses basically reverse engineer scriptpubkeys to figure out what addresses they use, though this only works for very boring scriptpubkeys.
  42 2013-08-31 00:21:25 <mrkent> or are you saying a proper implementation will always have new change addresses, such that as soon as an address is used to send out coins, it will be empty
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  44 2013-08-31 00:21:39 <gmaxwell> mrkent: it can be, thats not a good practice— becuase it announces to the whole world which of the two values was which, and also it puts funds into an address which is associated with that transaction and which has had its pubkey revealed.
  45 2013-08-31 00:22:11 <gmaxwell> mrkent: A proper implementation always uses a new address for change, yes. Though "empty"! there is nothing to be empty!
  46 2013-08-31 00:22:32 <gmaxwell> There just is no coin with that particular scriptpubkey written on it anymore. An address is not an account!
  47 2013-08-31 00:22:47 <gmaxwell> When bob leaves your office your office is not empty of bob.
  48 2013-08-31 00:23:34 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  49 2013-08-31 00:23:46 <mrkent> so here's the scenario I'm thinking of
  50 2013-08-31 00:26:05 <mrkent> suppose two services/trading-partners you use are compromised.  There's no way to link the two accounts as the same person (you)
  51 2013-08-31 00:26:36 <mrkent> unless you see the two address simultaneously used as inputs
  52 2013-08-31 00:26:51 <mrkent> is what i said correct?
  53 2013-08-31 00:27:44 <gmaxwell> What do you mean by compromised?   You mean you've been paying to Alice at 1AAAA and bob at 1BBBB  and alice has turned evil and knows your name and intends to use it against you?
  54 2013-08-31 00:27:49 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  55 2013-08-31 00:28:06 <mrkent> no like maybe by a police state
  56 2013-08-31 00:28:26 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  57 2013-08-31 00:29:28 <gmaxwell> in any case, I can guess at some things you're asking.  Yes, today, using inputs on a transaction tends to link them, this is why its useful to never reuse addresses, since that minimizes the linkages. If you constantly reuse an address you'll get an expanding web of linkages as you combine inputs.
  58 2013-08-31 00:29:42 <gmaxwell> But note that I said "today" and "tends", there is actually no proof here.
  59 2013-08-31 00:29:49 Diapolo has left ()
  60 2013-08-31 00:29:57 <gmaxwell> please take a couple minutes to read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0  (your timing is fortunate)
  61 2013-08-31 00:32:13 <mrkent> ok
  62 2013-08-31 00:32:35 i2pRelay has joined
  63 2013-08-31 00:33:01 <mrkent> although, i'm not sure that using new address every time actually solves the problem
  64 2013-08-31 00:34:04 daktak has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  65 2013-08-31 00:34:19 <gmaxwell> mrkent: No, it doesn't but it minimizes the information leakage compared to not doing that. Compartmentalizing these one use addresses would help further, but with reuse leakage grows rapidly with continued use.
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  69 2013-08-31 00:37:34 <mrkent> whats the dis-advantage of using only 1 input in each transaction?
  70 2013-08-31 00:38:33 <gmaxwell> say I pay you 1 BTC, and Bob pays you 3 BTC.  You now want to send 3.5 BTC to alice.  What do you do?
  71 2013-08-31 00:39:14 lk828128 has quit ()
  72 2013-08-31 00:39:30 <gmaxwell> The reference node software will try try to use a single input, but thats not always possible (or would result in change where it could be avoided).
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  75 2013-08-31 00:41:28 <mrkent> I think best thing to do is to send 3 and then 0.5
  76 2013-08-31 00:41:55 <mrkent> as to not link them
  77 2013-08-31 00:42:01 <mrkent> it's one extra transaction
  78 2013-08-31 00:43:14 <mrkent> but seems like it would protect privacy much more
  79 2013-08-31 00:43:21 <gmaxwell> Indeed, thats possible, but its non-atomic... and if everyone did that coins would get split and never merged and the required traffic would grow exponentially.
  80 2013-08-31 00:43:24 Heimdall has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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  82 2013-08-31 00:43:49 <mrkent> that is true...
  83 2013-08-31 00:43:58 <gmaxwell> (non-atomic meaning one transaction could be successful while the other is delayed... and if you really want to protect your privacy they must be sent at different times to different addresses)
  84 2013-08-31 00:44:15 Transisto has joined
  85 2013-08-31 00:44:18 <mrkent> Well, i guess maybe I'm refering to default behavior
  86 2013-08-31 00:44:48 <mrkent> I have been using electrum and I like the fact it allows you to freeze/prioritize certain addresses
  87 2013-08-31 00:45:23 <mrkent> I think the user should have some degree of control over this
  88 2013-08-31 00:45:35 <gmaxwell> The user can control it completely if they want.
  89 2013-08-31 00:45:42 <gmaxwell> I manually select all my coins.
  90 2013-08-31 00:46:18 <mrkent> i mean with some degree of user friendliness
  91 2013-08-31 00:46:49 <gmaxwell> Sure, and?
  92 2013-08-31 00:46:59 <mrkent> so the average user can at least know of this
  93 2013-08-31 00:47:39 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  94 2013-08-31 00:47:46 <gmaxwell> it takes a long time to get users to grok the 'coin' concept once they've seen the websites that present 'accounts', and without a firm understanding of the coin concept you can't really understand the system.
  95 2013-08-31 00:48:12 <gmaxwell> In any case, I'm not sure what you're getting at. There is a gui for manually controlling which coins you're spending.
  96 2013-08-31 00:48:23 CodeShark has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
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  98 2013-08-31 00:48:37 <mrkent> in -qt?
  99 2013-08-31 00:49:46 <gmaxwell> Yea, hopefully will be in the next release (you can get early builds with it now if you want)
 100 2013-08-31 00:50:56 <mrkent> ya I'll look into that
 101 2013-08-31 00:51:33 <gmaxwell> it could use some more testers.
 102 2013-08-31 00:52:59 <mrkent> uh, how do i test?
 103 2013-08-31 00:53:15 <gmaxwell> download a pulltester build use it on testnet.
 104 2013-08-31 00:53:39 <mrkent> btw, the concept of coin is the input/output creating this unit called coin
 105 2013-08-31 00:53:46 <mrkent> which is the value that is transfered in that transaction
 106 2013-08-31 00:53:47 <mrkent> correct?
 107 2013-08-31 00:53:52 <gmaxwell> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/1eec031951c2128dcb4e327e7907f6d623ecaef3/bitcoin/
 108 2013-08-31 00:54:04 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 109 2013-08-31 00:54:06 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: fuck I've failed to explain this to you.
 110 2013-08-31 00:54:29 <gmaxwell> No the concept is that every transaction consumes these atomic virtual coins, and creates atomic virtual coins.
 111 2013-08-31 00:54:55 <gmaxwell> the coins have variable values, whatever they've been assingned.
 112 2013-08-31 00:55:14 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/tx.flow.png  the 'out' and 'in' are the coins.
 113 2013-08-31 00:55:31 <gmaxwell> transaction 1 creates a 0.5 btc coin and a 49.5 btc coin.
 114 2013-08-31 00:55:40 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: i actually think calling them "bitcoins" was a mistake
 115 2013-08-31 00:56:02 <gmaxwell> Transaction 2 consumes a .5 btc coin a 0.8 btc coin and a 0.3 btc coin and creates two distinct 0.8 btc coins.
 116 2013-08-31 00:56:48 <gmaxwell> there can be 1 or more input, and 1 or more output. E.g. a single transaction can pay a dozen people.
 117 2013-08-31 00:57:01 <mrkent> okay, i get it
 118 2013-08-31 00:57:06 <gmaxwell> hurrah.
 119 2013-08-31 00:59:54 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 120 2013-08-31 01:00:16 <mrkent> Although, it doesn't seem like the coin model and the account model have that much difference when observed macroscopically
 121 2013-08-31 01:00:33 yubrew has joined
 122 2013-08-31 01:01:34 <gmaxwell> no, not in some cases at least, but it has some big impacts in others. Like, the account model suggests that its computationally easy to look up the "balance" of a random account.
 123 2013-08-31 01:01:55 <gmaxwell> This is not the case— not unless you carry around some gigabytes of additional indexes that are not otherwise needed.
 124 2013-08-31 01:02:13 Eiii has joined
 125 2013-08-31 01:02:55 <gmaxwell> it also suggests that spending from one "account" is more efficient than many, it's not.  Or that you can partial spend a payment to you directly.
 126 2013-08-31 01:03:23 <gmaxwell> it also suggests that you should persistantly use a single or a small number of addresses, which brutilizes the privacy model.
 127 2013-08-31 01:04:01 <mrkent> No, i mean you can always use change accounts
 128 2013-08-31 01:04:34 <mrkent> so what are the advantages of the coin model?
 129 2013-08-31 01:04:45 <gmaxwell> uh.. because its actually how the system works!
 130 2013-08-31 01:04:45 <mrkent> the first 2 you listed seems like disadvantages
 131 2013-08-31 01:05:18 <gmaxwell> if you try to construct something like bitcoin using accounts rather than coins you rapidly run into really gnarly problems with race conditions on conflicting transactions.
 132 2013-08-31 01:05:31 <gmaxwell> But thats irrelevant, because for better or worse this is how it works.
 133 2013-08-31 01:05:43 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
 134 2013-08-31 01:05:59 <gmaxwell> mrkent: wait, what two things are you calling disadvantages?
 135 2013-08-31 01:06:18 <mrkent> Like, the account model suggests that its computationally easy to look up the "balance" of a random account.
 136 2013-08-31 01:06:34 <mrkent> it also suggests that spending from one "account" is more efficient than many, it's not.  Or that you can partial spend a payment to you directly.
 137 2013-08-31 01:06:52 <gmaxwell> mrkent: but it's not and cannot be. (and the privacy model demands that it not be in any case— for both of those things)
 138 2013-08-31 01:08:31 <mrkent> how so? Like you said, the two are very similar
 139 2013-08-31 01:08:43 <gmaxwell> If you try to formulate the system with accounts instead you get a number of really hard problems. For example, You have 10.1 coin in an account. You pay alice 5 coins, then you pay bob 5 coins.  Then alice gets mad that the payment hasn't gone through yet because you didn't pay a fee and she demands that you reissue with a fee.
 140 2013-08-31 01:08:48 <mrkent> i'm not sure what you even mean by privacy model
 141 2013-08-31 01:09:23 <gmaxwell> So then you author a replacement transaction for 5.01 btc for alice with the .01 btc as fees.
 142 2013-08-31 01:09:45 <gmaxwell> But then, oops the two alice transactions go through and the one for bob doesn't because of an insufficient amount.
 143 2013-08-31 01:10:11 <gmaxwell> And for any of that to be of use it assumes you're reusing accounts, but the _only_ privacy at all in bitcoin comes from trying to not reuse anything.
 144 2013-08-31 01:10:25 <gmaxwell> See section 10 of the whitepaper.
 145 2013-08-31 01:11:01 <gmaxwell> and, finally, it's a moot discussion as it works this way and will not be changing.
 146 2013-08-31 01:11:53 <mrkent> maybe in the short term
 147 2013-08-31 01:12:14 <gmaxwell> No, not ever.
 148 2013-08-31 01:12:28 <mrkent> but that's like saying the existing financial system isn't changing, so moot to talk about bitcoin
 149 2013-08-31 01:12:58 <mrkent> there's always use in discussion of potentially better ways of doing things
 150 2013-08-31 01:13:22 <mrkent> I'm sure translating it will be a bitch
 151 2013-08-31 01:13:32 <gmaxwell> mrkent: so you think bitcoin is going to be rebooted with a fundimentally different design, which introduces race condition vulnerabilities, and which reduces privacy by incentivizing address reuse, .. okay.
 152 2013-08-31 01:13:40 <gmaxwell> have fun. ::ploink::
 153 2013-08-31 01:14:03 <mrkent> not sure what race condition vulnerabilities are
 154 2013-08-31 01:14:24 <mrkent> lol how does it incentivize address reuse?
 155 2013-08-31 01:14:30 <gmaxwell> mrkent: I explained it above, you've ignored it. and now I'm ignoring you.
 156 2013-08-31 01:14:38 <mrkent> lol what
 157 2013-08-31 01:14:52 <mrkent> and i said it doesn't have to do that
 158 2013-08-31 01:15:01 <mrkent> you can just always send to new accounts that you own
 159 2013-08-31 01:15:22 catcowllama is now known as catcow
 160 2013-08-31 01:15:24 <gmaxwell> Geesh, I explained the race condition vulnerabilities.
 161 2013-08-31 01:15:41 <mrkent> oh you mean the 10.1 thing?
 162 2013-08-31 01:15:51 <mrkent> that's basically a double spend
 163 2013-08-31 01:15:55 <gmaxwell> And wrt reuse, if you make transaction which reuse _smaller_ and you make it so that you can trivally query your "balance" but only if you reuse, ... what do you think thats encouraging?
 164 2013-08-31 01:16:29 <gmaxwell> mrkent: it is a total non-problem in the current system, and it appears to be insoluable in an account based one.
 165 2013-08-31 01:17:20 <mrkent> well, you can just sum up balance of all your addresses
 166 2013-08-31 01:17:59 <gmaxwell> mrkent: right, with N queries, which is exactly as expensive as it is now.
 167 2013-08-31 01:18:48 <gmaxwell> so the accounts change would provide benefits only to people who reuse (who screw up the privacy of those they trade with, indirectly),  and it adds the inability to control which transactions conflict with others.
 168 2013-08-31 01:19:17 <gmaxwell> (unless the transactions always empty their accounts, when then again looks like the current model)
 169 2013-08-31 01:19:38 <mrkent> I'm gonna need to get back on some of these more technical things
 170 2013-08-31 01:20:26 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 171 2013-08-31 01:20:32 <gmaxwell> You can just imagine the current model as being accounts with the following limitations: every seperate transaction output is a distinct account (though it might use the same 'key' to control it), and every spend from an "account" must spend the whole account.
 172 2013-08-31 01:21:01 <gmaxwell> and once you've added those limitations you've solved the privacy problems, the control problems, and made accounts and coins exactly the same.
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 176 2013-08-31 01:23:02 <mrkent> yes probably why i've been thinking of it as accounts
 177 2013-08-31 01:23:38 <gmaxwell> sure if you do that the unit of an account isn't an address though, it's a txid:vout.
 178 2013-08-31 01:23:39 <mrkent> but here's an idiological comment:
 179 2013-08-31 01:24:03 justusranvier has joined
 180 2013-08-31 01:24:04 <mrkent> it seems like you're insistant on privacy
 181 2013-08-31 01:24:53 <gmaxwell> mrkent: Bitcoin uses a global broadcast ledger. It is the least private financial system since rai stones.
 182 2013-08-31 01:24:58 <mrkent> but I think bitcoin shouldn't impose "privacy"
 183 2013-08-31 01:25:41 <mrkent> like if the guy wants to reuse his accounts and reduce privacy of his trading partners, he should have the freedom to do so
 184 2013-08-31 01:26:26 jcorgan has joined
 185 2013-08-31 01:26:36 <gmaxwell> mrkent: Then you should not be using Bitcoin. The goals of the system were set out since its inception. Moreover, a transaction system without any privacy at all in the world we live in is unethical. It causes harm to people, because it exposes them to misconduct by prejudiced or greedy people who would exploit them.
 186 2013-08-31 01:27:00 <Luke-Jr> mrkent: you can always be non-private by publishing your transaction log
 187 2013-08-31 01:27:02 <mrkent> i didn't say i don't like privacy
 188 2013-08-31 01:27:06 <gmaxwell> Most people are not used to systems which inherently have so little privacy, and aren't well prepared to deal with the consequences.
 189 2013-08-31 01:27:07 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 190 2013-08-31 01:27:09 <mrkent> Luke-Jr, exactly
 191 2013-08-31 01:27:23 <Luke-Jr> mrkent: also, addresses are NOT accounts.
 192 2013-08-31 01:27:42 <mrkent> Luke-Jr, yes that's what we've been talking about for past hour
 193 2013-08-31 01:27:43 <gmaxwell> mrkent: sure indeed. Nothing stops that, but the system should not agressively degrade the cases that want/need it by encouraging bad behavior by making it fundimentally cheaper.
 194 2013-08-31 01:28:09 <Luke-Jr> mrkent: I assure you gmaxwell is right, whatever the argument
 195 2013-08-31 01:28:09 <gmaxwell> mrkent: or by having dumb defaults that make people who are indifferent break privacy for those around them.
 196 2013-08-31 01:28:18 <mrkent> okay, i'm not really talking about privacy
 197 2013-08-31 01:28:48 <mrkent> i'm trying to get at that it should be more about freedom, rather than any particular opinion
 198 2013-08-31 01:28:55 toffoo has joined
 199 2013-08-31 01:29:25 <mrkent> like i'd say privacy is something most of us value
 200 2013-08-31 01:29:37 <mrkent> which is why it's considered one of the more important things
 201 2013-08-31 01:29:52 <gmaxwell> mrkent: "the freedom to swing your fist stops at the bridge of my nose"  You don't have a right to demand that a system which people share makes maintaining their thin bit of privacy more expensive just to make things easier for you.
 202 2013-08-31 01:30:21 <gmaxwell> mrkent: We have bitcoin, it works a particular way. If you don't like how it works feel free to start your own, we've given you the code.
 203 2013-08-31 01:30:25 <gmaxwell> Thats freedom.
 204 2013-08-31 01:30:38 <mrkent> lol indeed
 205 2013-08-31 01:30:54 <mrkent> no i'm fine with bitcoin
 206 2013-08-31 01:30:59 <gmaxwell> Aparently not! :P
 207 2013-08-31 01:32:00 <mrkent> i am just proding at issues i may or may not have
 208 2013-08-31 01:33:26 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 209 2013-08-31 01:33:29 <mrkent> it either finds problems or improves bitcoin's standing in my eye
 210 2013-08-31 01:33:49 <mrkent> both pluses
 211 2013-08-31 01:34:01 <gmaxwell> mrkent: the privacy stuff is deeper than you might be realizing, it's not just your personal privacy that matters… or even just the privacy of those you trade with that matters (though thats pretty important because your freedom to be non-private is in competition with other people's freedom to be private).
 212 2013-08-31 01:34:25 <gmaxwell> Without privacy bitcoin loses fungibility, and without that it's not really good as a money.
 213 2013-08-31 01:34:57 <mrkent> how so?
 214 2013-08-31 01:35:06 <mrkent> like those group buy threads on the forums
 215 2013-08-31 01:35:11 <mrkent> they have everyone send to 1 address
 216 2013-08-31 01:35:19 <mrkent> is that privacy invasive?
 217 2013-08-31 01:35:46 <gmaxwell> when everything is private one coin is pretty much as good as another coin. But if it's not private you get crap like blacklisted coins, and a risk that when you accept a coin from people that it was a blacklisted one that people won't accept from you, and so then you need to impose the blacklist yourself, and so on.
 218 2013-08-31 01:36:29 <mrkent> nah i never considered that to be a problem
 219 2013-08-31 01:37:07 <gmaxwell> mrkent: uh. I've never seen a groupbuy thread doing that except the scam ones.  If you have everyone send to the same address you can't tell who paid.
 220 2013-08-31 01:37:23 <mrkent> by signing
 221 2013-08-31 01:37:31 <mrkent> witht he payment address
 222 2013-08-31 01:37:44 <gmaxwell> many wallets won't let you do that. Interesting.
 223 2013-08-31 01:37:46 <mrkent> or like they would be the mining contracts
 224 2013-08-31 01:37:56 <gmaxwell> mrkent: In any case, yes thats somewhat privacy invasive but what that should be using is a BIP32 extended public key, but the software isn't available for mortals to make use of that.
 225 2013-08-31 01:37:59 <mrkent> so they just send the dividends to the paying addresses
 226 2013-08-31 01:38:22 <gmaxwell> mrkent: yea, lol thats had some funny results with people recieving dividends for shares they didn't buy. :P
 227 2013-08-31 01:38:37 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: in 25 words or less, summarize the state of implementation of bip32
 228 2013-08-31 01:38:55 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: I can't answer anything in 25 words or less.
 229 2013-08-31 01:39:04 PrimeStunna_ has joined
 230 2013-08-31 01:39:19 <jcorgan> ok, 26
 231 2013-08-31 01:39:39 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: (from forum) escrow? you wouldn't ask him for an outright retainer? :p
 232 2013-08-31 01:39:49 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 233 2013-08-31 01:39:50 <mrkent> ya i have no clue what bip32 is either
 234 2013-08-31 01:39:57 <mrkent> people say good things though
 235 2013-08-31 01:40:40 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: Implementation where? A lot of people have rushed forward with implementations, I don't know where it is in other software. In the reference client sipa has a freestanding reference implementation of the operations and test vectors. Actually using it needs a wallet database rewrite that hasn't started yet as far as I know.
 236 2013-08-31 01:40:59 <jcorgan> ah ok
 237 2013-08-31 01:41:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: link?
 238 2013-08-31 01:41:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: http://bitcointroll.org/?topic=284178.msg3046813#msg3046813
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 240 2013-08-31 01:41:20 PrimeStunna_ is now known as PrimeStunna
 241 2013-08-31 01:41:27 <jcorgan> i'm used to the armory deterministic wallet features and want to see that standardized
 242 2013-08-31 01:41:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: my response here was kinda tongue-in-cheek, not totally serious
 243 2013-08-31 01:41:38 ansant has joined
 244 2013-08-31 01:41:44 <gmaxwell> mrkent: in any case that would just let each person pay to a new address, and only the participants in the group buy would know the addresses were related.
 245 2013-08-31 01:42:18 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: lol, hey, I'm an honest man!
 246 2013-08-31 01:42:31 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: exactly, no need for an escrow ;)
 247 2013-08-31 01:42:58 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: What people don't really appreciate is that BIP32 is basically novel cryptography. It's taken a lot of time and review to be really confident that it would be safe to use.
 248 2013-08-31 01:43:05 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I'm honest about my own mortality and fallibility too :P
 249 2013-08-31 01:44:01 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: I've been a little unhappy about various wallets running off with early versions of the idea before I considered it safe to deploy. :-/ though fortunately its panned out okay, though the final version is more cryptographically conservative than what some other things have implemented.
 250 2013-08-31 01:44:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: A previous version had a way to get a master privkey or something IIRC?
 251 2013-08-31 01:44:37 banghouse has joined
 252 2013-08-31 01:44:54 <jcorgan> safe to use from an algorithm point of view, or safe to use because implementation gotchas have been figure out?
 253 2013-08-31 01:45:13 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 254 2013-08-31 01:45:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'll warn you, I suggested ECC multiplication to alp for oracle-using scriptPubKeys...
 255 2013-08-31 01:45:58 <gmaxwell> petertodd: even BIP32 has a private key reversal weakness when used in the type-2 'public derivation' mode.
 256 2013-08-31 01:46:11 <gmaxwell> Thats why we added the private derivation mode.
 257 2013-08-31 01:46:44 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: There is a vulnerablity in the algorithim which isn't a problem if you use it the "intended" way but is really surprising.
 258 2013-08-31 01:47:10 <jcorgan> sort of like duplicate 'k' values with ECDSA?
 259 2013-08-31 01:48:12 <gmaxwell> kinda. Basically BIP32 has two modes 'public derivation' and 'private derivation'.. all of the pre-bip32 determinstic wallet stuff (e.g. just anything based on my type1/type2 post) uses the 'public derivation'
 260 2013-08-31 01:48:42 <gmaxwell> The public derivation has a property that given a bip32 public key and a chaining code you can generate more addresses that the author of that public key has access to.
 261 2013-08-31 01:48:49 AusBitBank has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 262 2013-08-31 01:48:51 <jcorgan> right
 263 2013-08-31 01:49:02 <gmaxwell> it lets you put an extended public key on your webserver and your webserver can generate more keys for you. pretty awesome.
 264 2013-08-31 01:49:10 <jcorgan> agree
 265 2013-08-31 01:49:29 <gmaxwell> well if I have one of those, and I give you the extended public key.. AND the private key... you can run it backwards and determine that whole chain.
 266 2013-08-31 01:50:06 <gmaxwell> e.g. so I give my webserver a public chain .. and then I export a single private key from that chain to give to one of my staff members.. and wham he has all the private keys for that chain.
 267 2013-08-31 01:50:18 wrabbit has joined
 268 2013-08-31 01:50:21 <jcorgan> oh, a compromise of a single private key compromises all the rest then
 269 2013-08-31 01:50:47 <gmaxwell> yea.. and thats not so bad if you know about it... but it's really really surprising to people, so I think we can expect to see people burned by it.
 270 2013-08-31 01:51:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ok, so for alp's oracle stuff, that doesn't matter: basically I told him oracle-users should take oracle pubkey A and multiply it by user pubkey B, oracle makes A' public, and now user can calculate (A*B)' and spend the transaction. They still are the only person who knows B', so (A*B)' is still secret.
 271 2013-08-31 01:51:26 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea thats fine.
 272 2013-08-31 01:52:30 <jcorgan> so you basically need to treat a whole chain with the same level of security that you do a single address now
 273 2013-08-31 01:52:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i dont get why people have so much trouble just using a giant list of pregenerated keys
 274 2013-08-31 01:52:36 <phantomcircuit> it's really not computationally expensive
 275 2013-08-31 01:52:44 <phantomcircuit> and hey look wallets can now support millions of keys
 276 2013-08-31 01:52:53 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: so what we did in bip32 is add a private mode that doesn't use the ecc homorphism and can't do the pretty public/private thing.  And at least in the reference client every address it generates will be using the private mode. But you'll be able to export a single one of those private generated keys and use it to generate children using the public mode.
 277 2013-08-31 01:53:09 <phantomcircuit> novel crypto for something solvable in a non-novel way seems like bad engineering
 278 2013-08-31 01:53:32 <jcorgan> wow, need to go back an read bip32 in detail now
 279 2013-08-31 01:53:33 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: so then the "SURPRISE!" limited to cases where you really were using that case and not your whole wallet.
 280 2013-08-31 01:54:39 <gmaxwell> plus, even though we got quite a few people to review the BIP32 public derrivation structure (and now tor is planning on using it for hidden services)... I do feel a little more confident in the cryptographic security of the private mode.
 281 2013-08-31 01:54:44 <jcorgan> heh, i just...localbitcoined again.  gotta stop this, it's an addiction
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 285 2013-08-31 01:57:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ok, so I came up with a one-time-password protected wallet using the same kind of mechanism, and I think it's still secure too: Generate root keypairs (K, K') and (J, J'), now put K and K' on your insecure webserver or whatever, and in addition put J on that webserver. Create n txouts paying some fixed amount to Ki*Ji. Now when you want to unlock one of those txouts, so the insecure server can spend it, transfer Ji' to the server, which allows
 286 2013-08-31 01:58:25 <petertodd> */I think it's insecure too/
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 288 2013-08-31 01:59:38 <petertodd> I mean, you can use private derivation, but then you have to give the server J_0...J_n in advance.
 289 2013-08-31 02:00:09 <gmaxwell> you got truncated at which allows. If it uses anything like the BIP32 public chain stuff where a single value gives you a whole chain of public keys its vulnerable to one private key leaks all private keys.
 290 2013-08-31 02:00:25 <gmaxwell> If we could have found a scheme that prevented that we would have switched BIP32 to it.
 291 2013-08-31 02:00:38 <petertodd> which allows them to compute (Ki'*Ji') and thus spend the txout. But if I understand it correctly, that's insecure because knowledge of any Ji' and J reveals J' right?
 292 2013-08-31 02:01:15 <petertodd> Yeah, sounds like the idea doesn't work, and it's a good example of how someone who didn't know could have made something very insecure...
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 295 2013-08-31 02:20:18 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130830-ReceiveMockup.png <-- mockup thoughts?
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 301 2013-08-31 02:42:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I like that, but if it hides the "get me an address to pay to" too much that might confuse people.
 302 2013-08-31 02:43:12 <Luke-Jr> maybe a button for the double-clicked details?
 303 2013-08-31 02:44:40 <gmaxwell> maybe the recieve pane should be split into "Make a payment request"  and "just give me an address to recieve funds at"?
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 308 2013-08-31 02:56:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't see a use case for the latter.
 309 2013-08-31 02:57:48 peetaur2 has joined
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 311 2013-08-31 02:58:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: "legacy"
 312 2013-08-31 02:58:42 <gmaxwell> It's how people are used to using it, it would be good to provide a bridge. perhaps even with a preference checkbox to turn off displaying it... and some magic so the preference is off for new wallets.
 313 2013-08-31 02:58:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we don't support it in Bitcoin-Qt today
 314 2013-08-31 02:58:48 magbo has joined
 315 2013-08-31 02:59:02 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: to create an address in Bitcoin-Qt, you are prompted for a label
 316 2013-08-31 02:59:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we have a "create new address" thing that gives you an addres, prompting you only for a label.
 317 2013-08-31 02:59:14 Transisto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 318 2013-08-31 02:59:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: same thing?
 319 2013-08-31 02:59:36 <gmaxwell> from the picture it wasn't clear to me that I could just get an address from that.
 320 2013-08-31 02:59:48 <Luke-Jr> you create the request, then rightclick, Copy Address
 321 2013-08-31 02:59:52 Transisto has joined
 322 2013-08-31 02:59:53 <gmaxwell> e.g. without providing a value
 323 2013-08-31 03:00:02 <Luke-Jr> oh
 324 2013-08-31 03:00:10 <Luke-Jr> maybe some indicator all fields are optional then
 325 2013-08-31 03:00:12 <gmaxwell> Like, I need an address for a mining pool to pay me. What do I press and how do I know to press it?
 326 2013-08-31 03:00:37 <gmaxwell> and if the procedure involves "right click" I think it fails the user compatiblity test.
 327 2013-08-31 03:01:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if it's too easy, pools might not update to use HD pubkey chains
 328 2013-08-31 03:01:44 <gmaxwell> but I think if after you do it you get a popup with the data (an address you can copy, a QR code, and a URI) which also tells you that you can right click and also tells you that you can turn off the popup.. that would be fine.
 329 2013-08-31 03:02:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: maybe. I dunno, perhaps we've written off the common user in any case and we can go ahead and use the reference wallet for full on advocacy.
 330 2013-08-31 03:03:30 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 331 2013-08-31 03:03:44 <gmaxwell> But thats a non-trivial decision, unless we decide that we're willing to piss off users of the wallet ui we do need to have some consideration of existing behaviors, even if we know they're bad.
 332 2013-08-31 03:04:41 <Luke-Jr> isn't the point of this change to discourage bad behaviours in the first place?
 333 2013-08-31 03:04:46 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 334 2013-08-31 03:04:52 <Luke-Jr> if we're not going to do that, might as well not change it
 335 2013-08-31 03:04:57 i2pRelay has joined
 336 2013-08-31 03:05:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Sometimes you must raise the temp slowly when you want to boil a frog, or he will jump out. :)
 337 2013-08-31 03:06:14 <gmaxwell> we can give people a better way to do it, and promote that way.. but if we make the old way too hard the users may switch to multibit.
 338 2013-08-31 03:06:35 <Luke-Jr> ;)
 339 2013-08-31 03:06:38 <gmaxwell> Then we lose a network node, and we get someone using a wallet that has pessimal behavior: no p2sh, constant address reuse, etc.
 340 2013-08-31 03:07:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: for example you could make your form more clear by having a checkbox to activate the optional fields, off by default.
 341 2013-08-31 03:07:28 <AlexNagy> gmaxwell: see any number of save vs. export discussions on the gimp-user mailing list.
 342 2013-08-31 03:07:46 <gmaxwell> E.g. [ ] Request a specific payment amount [ 0] BTC.
 343 2013-08-31 03:07:57 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 344 2013-08-31 03:08:02 <AlexNagy> for changing something too quickly with out first advocating such a change.
 345 2013-08-31 03:08:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we could introduce it first with the checkboxes ... making it clear that its optional.. and later take them out once someone complaints that they're pointless. :P
 346 2013-08-31 03:08:47 <Luke-Jr> heh
 347 2013-08-31 03:08:56 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 348 2013-08-31 03:09:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you could also have a couple more optional fields like "invoice number" "email address" "refund bitcoin address"
 349 2013-08-31 03:09:26 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 351 2013-08-31 03:09:54 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I figured the Email button would open the default mail client with an attachment
 352 2013-08-31 03:10:31 <gmaxwell> unfortunately the payment protocol doesn't fit well in that usecase. :(
 353 2013-08-31 03:13:50 <gmaxwell> Also UI wise. I wonder how bad it would be to add a  yellow ⚠   or ♻  to transactions which are paid to an address that you've recieved coins on before that when you clock on gives you a very kind little lecture on address reuse and recommends you give them an extended public key.
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 357 2013-08-31 03:22:26 <gmaxwell> I think that kind of education will be more effective than the fences of making it hard.
 358 2013-08-31 03:22:37 <gmaxwell> Lets put users' OCD to work for us, rather than against us.
 359 2013-08-31 03:23:09 <gmaxwell> "omg you moved my cheese and made my thing hard to do!"  vs  "omg foopool is making the naughty bang light up!!!"
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 377 2013-08-31 04:01:22 <weex> jgarzik: in pynode, any idea what i need to install to fix this error?
 378 2013-08-31 04:01:25 <weex> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-3: ordinal not in range(128)
 379 2013-08-31 04:01:26 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 380 2013-08-31 04:01:41 <weex> this is in regards to NetMagic in coredefs.py in bitcoinlib
 381 2013-08-31 04:01:45 <weex> i think
 382 2013-08-31 04:02:38 <Krellan> Weird bitcoind network failure I saw at around 7 AM Pacific (1400 UTC) this morning
 383 2013-08-31 04:02:54 <Krellan> At first I thought it was my network/internet but p2pool was still working just fine.
 384 2013-08-31 04:03:14 <petertodd> weex: what exact version of bitcoinlib are you using?
 385 2013-08-31 04:03:31 <weex> i just cloned master
 386 2013-08-31 04:03:35 <Krellan> It was accepting connections, and making outbound connections, but no data would flow.  I got the "socket no message in first 60 seconds" error repeatedly.
 387 2013-08-31 04:03:45 <Krellan> Ever happen to anybody else?
 388 2013-08-31 04:03:48 <petertodd> weex: could be my fault; line number?
 389 2013-08-31 04:04:23 <weex> petertodd: 111 in ChainDB.py
 390 2013-08-31 04:05:29 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 391 2013-08-31 04:06:32 <petertodd> weex: Go to coredefs.py in python-bitcoinlib, and where it says NetMagic("\xf9\xbe\xb4\xd9", change it to NetMagic(b"\xf9\xbe\xb4\xd9",
 392 2013-08-31 04:06:51 <petertodd> weex: Do this for both instances of NetMagic - that makes Python interpret the string as bytes rather than unicode.
 393 2013-08-31 04:07:30 joepie91 has joined
 394 2013-08-31 04:07:57 <weex> looks like that worked
 395 2013-08-31 04:08:04 <weex> thanks!
 396 2013-08-31 04:08:19 <petertodd> weex: Cool, I'll submit a pull-req to fix that, so it should be fixed upstream soon.
 397 2013-08-31 04:08:26 joepie91 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 398 2013-08-31 04:08:45 <petertodd> weex: Out of curiosity, what do you use pynode for?
 399 2013-08-31 04:08:45 joepie91 has joined
 400 2013-08-31 04:09:01 <skeltoac> Anybody remember a proposal for adding sendmany support to bitcoin: URIs?
 401 2013-08-31 04:09:07 <weex> petertodd: i'm trying it out, actually getting a can't find blk0001.dat error now
 402 2013-08-31 04:09:16 <weex> it'd be for ltc though
 403 2013-08-31 04:09:36 <petertodd> weex: can't find error? huh, could be my fault too :P
 404 2013-08-31 04:09:49 <weex> heh, i looked for a tag to pull
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 406 2013-08-31 04:11:09 <gmaxwell> Krellan: no instances of that on my outbound only nodes.
 407 2013-08-31 04:11:22 <weex> it creates its own blk0001.dat right? i shouldn't point it at the blocks dir right?
 408 2013-08-31 04:11:25 <gmaxwell> I do have intances of that on my tor node.
 409 2013-08-31 04:11:36 <petertodd> weex: not sure to be honest - what does the source do?
 410 2013-08-31 04:11:40 <gmaxwell> Krellan: but I suspect its normal.
 411 2013-08-31 04:12:15 <weex> petertodd: i'll look deeper and come back once i know something
 412 2013-08-31 04:13:09 <petertodd> weex: mind telling me the line number where that error came from?
 413 2013-08-31 04:13:19 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 414 2013-08-31 04:13:32 <weex> petertodd: 636 in chaindb
 415 2013-08-31 04:14:10 <skeltoac> a sendmany URI proposal appeared on bitcoin-development in May: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30882263
 416 2013-08-31 04:14:24 <petertodd> weex: ah, probably not my fault then. (I made a bunch of changes to bitcoinlib recently)
 417 2013-08-31 04:14:56 <skeltoac> tl;dr: allow a single URL to specify several recipients+amounts
 418 2013-08-31 04:16:06 <gmaxwell> skeltoac: +1 for the idea of sendmany uris.. I had a use for them just a week ago.
 419 2013-08-31 04:16:26 <skeltoac> well here's a patch: https://github.com/skeltoac/bitcoin/commit/8fb5f4b40e95bff6e01154d586e4068db43c7ab8
 420 2013-08-31 04:17:01 yubrew_ has joined
 421 2013-08-31 04:17:29 <gmaxwell> (I don't have any opinions on the encoding— I'll let someone who generally knows/cares about uris bikeshed that)
 422 2013-08-31 04:17:40 <skeltoac> it would be nicer if I'd broken it down into at least 2 patches: one to prepare the plumbing, one to add the URI changes
 423 2013-08-31 04:18:13 <skeltoac> that way the bikeshed would be already half painted while people decide on colors :)
 424 2013-08-31 04:19:19 <petertodd> skeltoac: I dunno man, you gotta make sure you have the right primer for the application...
 425 2013-08-31 04:19:23 phpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 426 2013-08-31 04:19:59 <skeltoac> much of that patch is "primer"
 427 2013-08-31 04:20:07 <skeltoac> what I was calling plumbing
 428 2013-08-31 04:20:13 <petertodd> skeltoac: heh
 429 2013-08-31 04:20:22 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 430 2013-08-31 04:20:50 <skeltoac> anyway, now I can click on one of my newfangled URLs and it populates multiple recipients in qt
 431 2013-08-31 04:21:18 <skeltoac> uh oh, there's a failed test I didn't notice.
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 435 2013-08-31 04:25:29 <skeltoac> it's cool, just a broken test in paymentservertests.
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 444 2013-08-31 04:38:18 <skeltoac> fixed in next commit… though I'm sure I've overlooked the whole request signing thing
 445 2013-08-31 04:38:42 <petertodd> jgarzik: Just noticed my make-bootstrap.py script also got d066814010e2f9717f36cbf8dcf9be70c372ef3956ea51fe4094e480048fa914 up to height 250000 inclusive
 446 2013-08-31 04:38:44 <bizoro> there should be an usb device with bitcoin's downloaded chains and a good interface to use it, then it could be a kickstarter project of something
 447 2013-08-31 04:39:08 Guest___ has joined
 448 2013-08-31 04:39:10 <petertodd> bizoro: http://www.bitcointrezor.com/
 449 2013-08-31 04:39:15 <gmaxwell> bizoro: or we could just, you know, fix the sync process and remove 90% of the interest in something like that.
 450 2013-08-31 04:39:16 <bizoro> I mean, no need for interface, just bitcoin-qt
 451 2013-08-31 04:39:40 <bizoro> gmaxwell, how to fix the sync?!
 452 2013-08-31 04:40:29 <gmaxwell> by merging https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/headersfirst (After fixing some bugs in it)
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 454 2013-08-31 04:41:25 <bizoro> I mean, regular users don't trust their own computers, if you can make an external software that can secure stuff in it it will be great, like using simcards' key.... don't know
 455 2013-08-31 04:42:13 <gmaxwell> bizoro: oh for that you want 21:38 < petertodd> bizoro: http://www.bitcointrezor.com/
 456 2013-08-31 04:42:47 <gmaxwell> or whatever fpgaminer is working on— his recent post on determinstic DSA fills me with hope
 457 2013-08-31 04:43:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: can you please talk to fpgaminer and help him make his hardware wallet awesomesauce?
 458 2013-08-31 04:43:28 <weex> petertodd: my problem is i was trying all the options rather than starting minimal, and yes that load block thing is supposed to be pointed at a pre-existing blk00000X.dat fie
 459 2013-08-31 04:43:31 <weex> file*
 460 2013-08-31 04:43:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, sure, link?
 461 2013-08-31 04:43:54 <petertodd> weex: ah cool
 462 2013-08-31 04:44:10 <gmaxwell> petertodd: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=285142.0
 463 2013-08-31 04:44:21 <bizoro> that's sweet, gonna read about it, in fact I trust my system, I mean for regular windows users xP
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 467 2013-08-31 04:46:59 <jgarzik> petertodd, cool
 468 2013-08-31 04:47:37 <jgarzik> petertodd, See, pynode has users we don't need to break ;p
 469 2013-08-31 04:47:52 zacm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 470 2013-08-31 04:48:19 <jgarzik> petertodd, PS. Got a report that pynode gets stuck on a transaction you created… one that exercises the SignatureHash-returns-error-value detail.
 471 2013-08-31 04:48:32 <jgarzik> petertodd, python-bitcoinlib might need to return 0, rather than 1.
 472 2013-08-31 04:48:37 <jgarzik> in its SignatureHash
 473 2013-08-31 04:48:40 <petertodd> jgarzik: oh! strange
 474 2013-08-31 04:48:52 <petertodd> got the exact txid handy?
 475 2013-08-31 04:50:23 zacm has joined
 476 2013-08-31 04:50:50 <bizoro> Ok.. Trezor got my attention, nice thing
 477 2013-08-31 04:51:36 GordonG3kko has joined
 478 2013-08-31 04:51:57 <bizoro> software and hardware opensource... gonna buy and test that, thanks gmaxwell
 479 2013-08-31 04:53:14 <jgarzik> petertodd, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=260595.0
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 488 2013-08-31 05:00:59 <petertodd> jgarzik: No, it's the other way around: python-bitcoinlib needs to return 1 rather than zero.
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 491 2013-08-31 05:03:07 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Thanks. Problem is, this continued for something like 3 hours until I noticed my miners were down, then I restarted bitcoind and everything popped right back up to normal.  Points to a possible bug in bitcoind, but I can't see where?
 492 2013-08-31 05:03:08 eoss has joined
 493 2013-08-31 05:03:58 <gmaxwell> Krellan: have a debug log covering this you can send me?
 494 2013-08-31 05:04:33 Transisto has joined
 495 2013-08-31 05:05:14 <jgarzik> petertodd, whichever
 496 2013-08-31 05:05:21 <jgarzik> petertodd, we are sync'd on the problem :)
 497 2013-08-31 05:06:10 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Sorry, no, it was full of just those "60 seconds" messages, had been going on for hours, the interesting part (when it first happened) scrolled off.
 498 2013-08-31 05:06:19 <gmaxwell> Krellan: :-/
 499 2013-08-31 05:06:33 <gmaxwell> Krellan: you may have been getting attacked, or it may just be a locking bug in bitcoin.
 500 2013-08-31 05:07:03 <Krellan> It smells like a locking bug.  Wasn't being attacked, it happened on all peers, not just a few.  Traffic wasn't high enough to be a DoS.
 501 2013-08-31 05:07:27 <Krellan> Any debug settings to set, to catch it next time?
 502 2013-08-31 05:07:44 <gmaxwell> well, debug=1 would have kept the log, and if we could see where it started that might have been informative.
 503 2013-08-31 05:07:57 <Krellan> My args: ./bitcoind -server -debug -printtoconsole -logtimestamps -externalip=70.
 504 2013-08-31 05:07:59 <gmaxwell> there is also some compile time locking debugging but it may be bitrotted. :(
 505 2013-08-31 05:08:17 Eiii has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 506 2013-08-31 05:08:20 <gmaxwell> Krellan: why are you -printtoconsole? if you'd had that going to a debug.log we'd have the data...
 507 2013-08-31 05:08:28 zacm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 508 2013-08-31 05:08:30 <Krellan> To avoid filling disk with spam I had it set to print to console, into a very large screen scrollback.
 509 2013-08-31 05:08:35 <Krellan> Eviedntly not large enough.
 510 2013-08-31 05:08:58 Eiii has joined
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 513 2013-08-31 05:10:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: Didn't actually test that pull-req, but it should work...
 514 2013-08-31 05:11:05 zacm has joined
 515 2013-08-31 05:11:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: Can we rename -tor to -onion  just had a forth person confused about what it does. (just make -tor a hidden alias)
 516 2013-08-31 05:12:15 <Krellan> OK, restarted bitcoind, no more -printtoconsole, we'll see if it happens ever again.  Hope it does, will be interesting.
 517 2013-08-31 05:13:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, who uses forth+bitcoin?
 518 2013-08-31 05:13:28 <petertodd> jgarzik: um... everyone? though not to forth's full potential...
 519 2013-08-31 05:13:34 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, More seriously, what was the manner of confusion, and how would that solve it?    Why is -tor confusing?
 520 2013-08-31 05:14:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: do you know what -tor does? I bet if you guess you'll guess wrong. :P
 521 2013-08-31 05:14:10 Eiii has joined
 522 2013-08-31 05:15:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: -tor tells it where a tor daemon is so it can reach .onion hidden service peers. It still makes and accepts ipv4 connections over the public internet.
 523 2013-08-31 05:15:12 Eiii has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 524 2013-08-31 05:15:14 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: if you want to actually anonymize yourself you use -proxy.
 525 2013-08-31 05:15:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and you can do things like -proxy <random v4 proxy used to reach the internet>  -tor <tor node to reach hidden services>  if you really want.
 526 2013-08-31 05:16:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, huh, didn't know about the latter (still makes and accepts ipv4 connections)
 527 2013-08-31 05:16:46 * jgarzik always assumed it was an alias for -proxy.  When I play w/ Tor+bitcoin, it is always with -proxy
 528 2013-08-31 05:16:51 <gmaxwell> It's all explained in detail in doc/tor.md  but ... like that has words. :P
 529 2013-08-31 05:16:53 <jgarzik> guess not...
 530 2013-08-31 05:18:13 <gmaxwell> thus the suggestion to rename -tor to -onion  (or maybe -hiddenserviceproxy) ... as there have been a couple people lately mistaking it, one opened an issue and it even confused diapolo.
 531 2013-08-31 05:19:17 MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 533 2013-08-31 05:21:42 * jgarzik wonders if p2pool works over Tor
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 536 2013-08-31 05:23:45 <gmaxwell> it does... or did? I'm not currently using it that way but I have in the past.
 537 2013-08-31 05:23:56 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/magnumripper/JohnTheRipper/blob/bleeding-jumbo/src/blockchain_fmt_plug.c  < so, someone just pointed me to this.
 538 2013-08-31 05:24:20 <jgarzik> I also worry about p2pool and eligius coinbase-payout approach… wonder what if any upper limit there is on number of payees
 539 2013-08-31 05:24:27 <gmaxwell> Blockchain.info wallet cracker, does 10 million attempts per second on an apparently "low end" card, I am told.
 540 2013-08-31 05:24:33 <jgarzik> it wouldbe nice to have p2pool-like capability in bitcoind itself
 541 2013-08-31 05:24:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: both things are designed to limit it. Basically the p2pool share difficulty goes up, so there are just so many shares that can be paid.
 542 2013-08-31 05:25:26 <gmaxwell> Eligius limits it by just setting a maximum and accruing balance for people (potentially paying into a temporary wallet)
 543 2013-08-31 05:25:45 moarrr has joined
 544 2013-08-31 05:25:55 <gmaxwell> there is a @#$@ bug in cgminer on avalon that if the coinbase is too large it basically stops mining. Though con's very latest firmware may have fixed it.
 545 2013-08-31 05:27:42 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 546 2013-08-31 05:28:40 <gmaxwell> that same repo has a cracker for bitcoin-qt wallets... 8 attempts per second.
 547 2013-08-31 05:30:29 <jgarzik> hah
 548 2013-08-31 05:30:57 <jgarzik> I need to find somebody to review my JS wallet's AES file format
 549 2013-08-31 05:31:26 * jgarzik recently added encrypt-then-HMAC
 550 2013-08-31 05:31:39 <jgarzik> which is all the rage now
 551 2013-08-31 05:32:52 Transisto has joined
 552 2013-08-31 05:33:29 <Krellan> gmaxwell: for ping, maybe use RAND_pseudo_bytes() for each peer, instead of my current implementation which uses RAND_bytes() once then increments?
 553 2013-08-31 05:35:33 <gmaxwell> Krellan: just rand_bytes them, we shouldn't be initiating pings that fast, and peers guessing our nonce lets them fake low latency to us.
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 558 2013-08-31 05:45:02 <Krellan> gmaxwell: at 8 bytes per outbound ping per peer, I don't want to burn the entropy pool that fast.
 559 2013-08-31 05:45:19 <gmaxwell> Krellan: its infinite don't worry.
 560 2013-08-31 05:45:31 <gmaxwell> if you create a guessable ping nonce I will have to kill you.
 561 2013-08-31 05:45:35 <Krellan> 0
 562 2013-08-31 05:45:36 <Krellan> :)
 563 2013-08-31 05:45:55 <gmaxwell> I'd like to use peer latency as a secure heuristic for deciding what peers to keep when we're connection-full.
 564 2013-08-31 05:46:00 <Krellan> Me too.
 565 2013-08-31 05:46:23 <Krellan> I noticed that ping time can suddenly spike up, so I added "pingwait" to show the RPC caller when we're still waiting for a ping to be replied to.
 566 2013-08-31 05:46:24 <gmaxwell> (latency is something a far away attacker cannot fake... so reserve some connections for low latency peers... uh. unless he can guess the sequences)
 567 2013-08-31 05:47:01 <Krellan> i've seen great low ping times, until *something happens*, like a big newly solved block, then ping goes to heck until the network calms down once again.
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 570 2013-08-31 05:48:48 <gmaxwell> hm.. might want to track a minimum then too, since its the minimum thats super hard to fake.
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 576 2013-08-31 06:05:16 <Krellan> I tried reporting MAX(last ping time, how long we've been waiting for this ping time) but that had problems and was ambiguous upon interpretation.
 577 2013-08-31 06:05:41 <Krellan> so I added two fields, "pingtime" and "pingwait" (pingwait is only visible when there's a ping actually outstanding).
 578 2013-08-31 06:06:17 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
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 580 2013-08-31 06:14:25 <Krellan> another bitcoind question: in the protocol handlers, I noticed none of them check for length before doing vRecv >> whatever.
 581 2013-08-31 06:14:47 <Krellan> Intentional?  I've seen pong come in with zero bytes of payload, surprisingly, which pops the exception in my pong handler, which tries to vRecv >> nonce.
 582 2013-08-31 06:16:58 <jgarzik> hum
 583 2013-08-31 06:18:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell / sipa: -proxy= -listen will only listen locally, I presume?  (as no -externalip= is given)
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 590 2013-08-31 06:29:53 <Krellan> My pull request is getting a little long in the tooth.  Should I make a new pull request and close what I have, or attempt to merge the latest bitcoind master into my branch?
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 633 2013-08-31 08:12:17 <Krellan> serialize.h question: in_avail(), why does it return int instead of size_t which it wraps?
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 637 2013-08-31 08:18:47 <jgarzik> Krellan, silliness
 638 2013-08-31 08:19:58 <jgarzik> Krellan, I went through a while ago and converted several code locations s/int/unsigned int/ where it was obvious a negative number was impossible
 639 2013-08-31 08:20:09 <jgarzik> Krellan, I think it's just Satoshi habit
 640 2013-08-31 08:21:56 <Krellan> jgarzik: Thanks, was curious, I noticed it's not used anywhere I could find, was adding it to diagnose my weird pong messages I received with totally empty payload.
 641 2013-08-31 08:22:27 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 643 2013-08-31 08:26:15 <Krellan> who is that guy Satoshi anyway? we could ask him why he coded it that way. :)
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 649 2013-08-31 08:39:33 <Ulmo> I'm trying to take a snapshot of ~/.bitcoin from one computer and put it verbatim on another computer, except for wallet.dat.  I did that in the middle of a -reindex of the target computer, because it was so damn slow.  Now, the log is staying for a while in "Rescanning last 55332 blocks (from block 199869)...".  I see this is to catch the old wallet up with the new files, so that's OK.  I just want to know how long 55332 of the mos
 650 2013-08-31 08:40:07 <Ulmo> No blocks/blk*dat or blocks/rev*dat files are being touched or opened or read or anything, so that's good I guess since that's what I was trying to skip
 651 2013-08-31 08:41:12 hydromet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 652 2013-08-31 08:41:41 <Ulmo> #bitcoin channel is talking about money, not programs, so I came here
 653 2013-08-31 08:43:12 random_cat has joined
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 655 2013-08-31 08:46:47 <Krellan> gmaxwell: There, instrumented pong handler, merged with latest upstream, leaving bitcoind running. Will see if any more strangely behaving peers appear.
 656 2013-08-31 08:49:27 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 657 2013-08-31 08:50:19 <Ulmo> 2013-08-31 08:38:28  rescan               510255ms <<<<< that's the answer.  55332 recent blocks rescanned took 510.255 seconds.
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 706 2013-08-31 11:17:01 <abrkn> should a service that accepts bitcoin payments restrict the nodes it connects to and noirc=1?
 707 2013-08-31 11:17:20 <abrkn> or atleast addnode?
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 709 2013-08-31 11:22:11 <jouke> Has there allready been an update on the blockchain.info IOS-app to fix the DER encoding issues?
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 716 2013-08-31 11:30:03 <phantomcircuit> jouke, ?
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 727 2013-08-31 11:52:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: dure, if you think more aliasses will result in less confusion...
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 729 2013-08-31 11:54:14 <sipa> jgarzik: unsure, look at the code :)
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 731 2013-08-31 11:55:12 <sipa> abrkn: irc has been gone since ages
 732 2013-08-31 11:55:36 <sipa> abrkn: and if you have actually trusted peers, feel free to addnode them
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 737 2013-08-31 12:03:03 <abrkn> sipa: i wouldnt know who to add
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 741 2013-08-31 12:07:29 <sipa> abrkn: theb don't :)
 742 2013-08-31 12:07:33 <sipa> *then
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 786 2013-08-31 14:06:14 <ahmedbodi> hey guys i need some advice
 787 2013-08-31 14:06:25 <ahmedbodi> how do i specify params on GBT
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 790 2013-08-31 14:07:02 <ahmedbodi> and also is it possible to just obtain specific value's
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 792 2013-08-31 14:07:35 <sipa> what kind of parameters?
 793 2013-08-31 14:09:13 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: BIP 22; but note bitcoind ignores them
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 796 2013-08-31 14:10:18 <ahmedbodi> in BIP22 it talks about specifying params
 797 2013-08-31 14:10:34 <ahmedbodi> and id like to just fetch things like coinbasevalue if possible
 798 2013-08-31 14:10:44 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: not possible
 799 2013-08-31 14:10:51 <Luke-Jr> you can ignore the other data of course
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 801 2013-08-31 14:11:00 <ahmedbodi> agreed
 802 2013-08-31 14:11:16 <ahmedbodi> how do i specify the params since some other coins require it for some unknown reason
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 804 2013-08-31 14:13:14 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: that's a fundamental JSON-RPC thing
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 806 2013-08-31 14:13:24 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: and "other coins" are off topic in #bitcoin channels
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 848 2013-08-31 15:23:03 <porquilho> sa
 849 2013-08-31 15:23:05 <porquilho> is bitcoinity working alright?
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 984 2013-08-31 20:12:26 <ahmedbodi> Luke-Jr: how is the target bit's in eloipool calculated, is it like pushpool or stratum?
 985 2013-08-31 20:12:28 sensorii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 986 2013-08-31 20:12:40 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: huh?
 987 2013-08-31 20:13:47 <ahmedbodi> # Automatically adjust targets per username
 988 2013-08-31 20:13:49 <ahmedbodi> # 0 = disabled
 989 2013-08-31 20:13:50 <ahmedbodi> # 1 = arbitrary targets
 990 2013-08-31 20:13:52 <ahmedbodi> # 2 = power of two difficulties (zero bit counts)
 991 2013-08-31 20:13:53 <ahmedbodi> DynamicTargetting = 3
 992 2013-08-31 20:13:56 sensorii has joined
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 994 2013-08-31 20:15:09 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: I still don't understand your question.
 995 2013-08-31 20:15:47 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 996 2013-08-31 20:16:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: he wants to know how to configure the share target/difficulty in eloipool
 997 2013-08-31 20:16:04 ticean has joined
 998 2013-08-31 20:16:25 <Luke-Jr> sipa: however he wants? I don't see how pushpool or stratum are related to it.
 999 2013-08-31 20:16:31 <ahmedbodi>   "rpc.target.bits" : 20,
1000 2013-08-31 20:16:46 <ahmedbodi> that is how its defined in pushpool
1001 2013-08-31 20:16:53 <ahmedbodi> how is that defined in eloipool?
1002 2013-08-31 20:17:05 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: that is not a pushpool option
1003 2013-08-31 20:17:20 <ahmedbodi> yes it is, i've taken it from my own server.json
1004 2013-08-31 20:17:37 <Luke-Jr> it's not part of pushpool
1005 2013-08-31 20:18:04 <sipa> does that matter, his question is about eloipool...
1006 2013-08-31 20:18:15 <ahmedbodi> perhaps its a part of artforz's fork and not jgarzik?
1007 2013-08-31 20:18:16 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, I'm going to have to guess what it means
1008 2013-08-31 20:18:27 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: maybe, do you have a link?
1009 2013-08-31 20:18:30 <ahmedbodi> basically the difficulty of each share
1010 2013-08-31 20:18:33 <ahmedbodi> https://github.com/TheSerapher/php-mmcfe-ng/wiki/Quick-Start-Guide
1011 2013-08-31 20:18:39 <ahmedbodi> scroll down to the pushpool config
1012 2013-08-31 20:18:46 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1013 2013-08-31 20:19:45 <Luke-Jr> just a min
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1015 2013-08-31 20:21:04 <Luke-Jr> looks tenebrix-specific - you're not asking for a scamcoinm are you?
1016 2013-08-31 20:21:08 <Luke-Jr> scamcoin,*
1017 2013-08-31 20:21:25 <ahmedbodi> nope for bitcoin
1018 2013-08-31 20:21:35 <ahmedbodi> running a private bitcoin MM pool
1019 2013-08-31 20:22:09 <Luke-Jr> ShareTarget = 0x0000000000ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
1020 2013-08-31 20:22:11 <Luke-Jr> that should be 40
1021 2013-08-31 20:22:16 <Luke-Jr> but you want 20..
1022 2013-08-31 20:22:21 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin won't do under 32
1023 2013-08-31 20:22:32 <Luke-Jr> ShareTarget = 0x00000000ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff <-- pdiff 1 aka 32 bits
1024 2013-08-31 20:23:22 <ahmedbodi> share 40 should be fine, for an asic right?
1025 2013-08-31 20:23:32 <Luke-Jr> 40 bits is pdiff 256
1026 2013-08-31 20:23:41 <sipa> ahmedbodi: what hashrate?
1027 2013-08-31 20:23:42 <Luke-Jr> my (partial) minirig usually runs at pdiff 128
1028 2013-08-31 20:23:54 <sipa> "an asic" may be anything between 300 MH and 80 GH
1029 2013-08-31 20:24:07 <Luke-Jr> usually you want to use the DynamicTargetting you pasted above, to let Eloipool pick a difficulty itself
1030 2013-08-31 20:24:09 <ahmedbodi> well 80GH it should support
1031 2013-08-31 20:24:23 <ahmedbodi> theres going to be around 20 or so miners on it
1032 2013-08-31 20:24:41 <sipa> ;;calc 80*10**30 * 600 / 2**32
1033 2013-08-31 20:24:42 <gribble> 11175870895385741579255808
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1036 2013-08-31 20:25:06 <sipa> ;;calc log(80*10**30 * 600)/log(2)
1037 2013-08-31 20:25:06 <gribble> 115.208589632
1038 2013-08-31 20:25:12 <sipa> ug
1039 2013-08-31 20:25:19 <sipa> ;;calc log(80*10**9 * 600)/log(2)
1040 2013-08-31 20:25:19 <gribble> 45.4480996394
1041 2013-08-31 20:25:27 <sipa> ;;calc log(80*10**9)/log(2)
1042 2013-08-31 20:25:27 <gribble> 36.2192809489
1043 2013-08-31 20:26:07 <ahmedbodi> right okay thanks Luke-Jr
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1056 2013-08-31 20:40:16 <Mqrius> Can you re-send a bitcoin-qt transaction? It seems mine didn't make it onto the network because it was still syncing when I sent it
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1058 2013-08-31 20:44:17 <jouke> Mqrius: getrawtransaction sendrawtransaction
1059 2013-08-31 20:44:50 <jouke> Hmmm, no that probably won't work on the same node.
1060 2013-08-31 20:45:01 <jouke> You could use Arbition to send the raw transaction ;)
1061 2013-08-31 20:45:18 <Mqrius> Heh, does arbitron take PMs?
1062 2013-08-31 20:46:02 <Mqrius> Also, what's the most convenient way to send a rpc to bitcoin-qt
1063 2013-08-31 20:46:45 <jouke> you could use the debug window
1064 2013-08-31 20:46:51 <Mqrius> Oh right
1065 2013-08-31 20:48:35 <sipa> Mqrius: it's resent automatically
1066 2013-08-31 20:48:38 <sipa> but infrequently
1067 2013-08-31 20:48:47 <sipa> ~ every 20 minutes, afaik
1068 2013-08-31 20:49:05 <jouke> Mqrius: yes, Arbition takes PM's, but I don't know if freenode lets you sent the whole raw transaction to Abitron
1069 2013-08-31 20:53:40 <Mqrius> Jouke: nope, it gets cut off.
1070 2013-08-31 20:53:56 <jouke> aw
1071 2013-08-31 20:54:20 <Mqrius> Using debug window doesn't work either, presumably because my local node already has those outputs as spent
1072 2013-08-31 20:54:44 <sipa> just wait :)
1073 2013-08-31 20:55:03 <Mqrius> Meh, I just want to turn my secure PC off when I'm done with it
1074 2013-08-31 20:56:48 <Mqrius> Anyway, it's sent by now. It's a silly problem though.
1075 2013-08-31 20:58:03 <Mqrius> What I actually don't get is why it didn't send out the transaction in the first place. Too busy downloading new blocks when I turned the PC off?
1076 2013-08-31 20:59:21 <sipa> sending out a transaction is just submitting it to the local validation engine
1077 2013-08-31 20:59:33 <sipa> if that doesn't consider it valid, it's ignored
1078 2013-08-31 21:00:04 <Mqrius> Well it was valid, it was generated on qt itself.
1079 2013-08-31 21:00:08 sensorii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1080 2013-08-31 21:00:17 <Mqrius> It was simply 40 blocks away from sync
1081 2013-08-31 21:00:22 <sipa> the validation engine can't know that before syncing up :)
1082 2013-08-31 21:00:31 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1083 2013-08-31 21:01:26 <Mqrius> That distinction is odd...
1084 2013-08-31 21:02:07 <sipa> distinction?
1085 2013-08-31 21:02:07 <Mqrius> I feel the validation engine should whitelist transactions coming from the local wallet
1086 2013-08-31 21:02:25 <Mqrius> The divide between the wallet and the validation engine
1087 2013-08-31 21:02:37 <sipa> it's absolutely essential
1088 2013-08-31 21:02:46 <Mqrius> When?
1089 2013-08-31 21:02:47 <sipa> we've been talking about even separating them into separate programs
1090 2013-08-31 21:03:04 <sipa> they have no dependency on eachother, at least in theory
1091 2013-08-31 21:03:32 <sipa> a wallet can work without validation engine (see SPV clients), and a validation engine is useful without a wallet
1092 2013-08-31 21:04:30 <Mqrius> The problem I have with that is, as a regular user, I already know that the transaction is valid. A regular user in fact won't ever make invalid transactions. But there is no way for me to use that, so now I can't send any money until I'm fully synced, even though I know the transaction is valid
1093 2013-08-31 21:04:37 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1094 2013-08-31 21:05:32 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
1095 2013-08-31 21:05:46 <Mqrius> A regular user won't install his wallet in 2 places, so doublespends won't happen. Even if they do, the next node over will just ignore it.
1096 2013-08-31 21:06:10 wrabbit has joined
1097 2013-08-31 21:06:13 <Mqrius> Why not capitalize on that inherent knowledge and improve the user experience?
1098 2013-08-31 21:06:38 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: one thing to note, however, is that with dynamic targetting you will need to log the share difficulty
1099 2013-08-31 21:06:51 bmcgee has joined
1100 2013-08-31 21:07:13 <ahmedbodi> i see, the current frontend doesnt support VARDIFF
1101 2013-08-31 21:07:25 sensorii has joined
1102 2013-08-31 21:07:57 <ahmedbodi> working on addint it tho so i guess ill have to stick with a static target
1103 2013-08-31 21:09:17 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1104 2013-08-31 21:09:56 <sipa> Mqrius: it's useful to have a consistent state (if the wallet has transactions the mempool doesn't know about, transactions that depend on it would be valid to the wallet, but invalid to the validation engine)
1105 2013-08-31 21:10:06 <sipa> Mqrius: it's also a situation that recovers automatically
1106 2013-08-31 21:10:29 <sipa> Mqrius: and if your inputs to a transactions are already confirmed, they will be sent out fine
1107 2013-08-31 21:10:33 Gnaf has joined
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1110 2013-08-31 21:11:43 <Mqrius> Sipa: you'll retain the consistent state: the wallet will send out the TX to the validation engine, that one will check it up to as many blocks as he has. If it's fine, then it's sent out.
1111 2013-08-31 21:11:59 <sipa> Mqrius: that's exactly what happes
1112 2013-08-31 21:12:15 <sipa> the validation engine doesn't even know whether it's up to date or not
1113 2013-08-31 21:12:22 <Mqrius> You said the validation engine waits until it's synced..?
1114 2013-08-31 21:12:28 <sipa> i simplified
1115 2013-08-31 21:12:38 <sipa> if your inputs are confirmed, it will validate just fine
1116 2013-08-31 21:12:42 <sipa> or in the mempool
1117 2013-08-31 21:12:54 <sipa> sorry if i confused you
1118 2013-08-31 21:12:58 <Mqrius> So why, when I sent out my TX, and turned off my PC, did it not get onto the network?
1119 2013-08-31 21:13:18 <sipa> maybe it depended on some transactions your peers didn't know about yet
1120 2013-08-31 21:13:27 <sipa> or it was dropped because of some throttling rule
1121 2013-08-31 21:13:40 <sipa> there can be many reasons
1122 2013-08-31 21:13:49 <sipa> the p2p network is a very unreliable communication mechanism
1123 2013-08-31 21:13:53 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: with ASICs, there really isn't any single diff that works unless miners are all in the same range of hashrate
1124 2013-08-31 21:14:01 <sipa> that's why the payment protocol submits transactions to the receiver
1125 2013-08-31 21:14:03 Gnaf has quit (Client Quit)
1126 2013-08-31 21:14:05 <abrkn> at which point in bitcoind's startup is the rpc port opened?
1127 2013-08-31 21:14:19 <sipa> abrkn: after loading the blockchain db and wallet
1128 2013-08-31 21:14:39 ColinT has joined
1129 2013-08-31 21:14:47 <Mqrius> Sipa: Hm okay. Odd.
1130 2013-08-31 21:15:05 <ahmedbodi> Luke-Jr: i agree, it can be a pain to get it working well, my current eloipool worked well with an 80gh asic but we've not tested with BE's until i recieve mine
1131 2013-08-31 21:15:19 <sipa> Mqrius: the problem with using the p2p network as communication mechanism, is that you as a sender are responsible for rebroadcasting until it's in a block
1132 2013-08-31 21:15:28 <sipa> Mqrius: as you have no idea whether the receiver got it
1133 2013-08-31 21:15:46 <sipa> Mqrius: with the payment protocol, the transaction is sent directly to the receiver, so he can rebroadcast, and you can go offlien
1134 2013-08-31 21:15:56 PrimeStunna has joined
1135 2013-08-31 21:16:39 <Mqrius> Sipa: fair enough, I get what you're saying. Separately: I'm not up to date with the payment protocol, is that a bip? Or an analogy?
1136 2013-08-31 21:16:49 <sipa> BIP 70
1137 2013-08-31 21:18:59 <abrkn> i was listening to some backlog of letstalkbitcoin today. why are people so obsessed with confirmations? unless youre a casino or an exchange, why would you need any confirmations?
1138 2013-08-31 21:19:17 <Mqrius> Nice bip, looks good :)
1139 2013-08-31 21:20:29 <sipa> it's also implemented :p
1140 2013-08-31 21:20:53 <Mqrius> Oh haha :) are exchanges using it yet?
1141 2013-08-31 21:21:02 <sipa> no
1142 2013-08-31 21:21:11 <sipa> there is no released implementation
1143 2013-08-31 21:21:28 <Mqrius> Ah okay
1144 2013-08-31 21:21:38 <abrkn> sipa: should exchanges go ahead an implement payment protocol? i have a habit of trying to implement things early
1145 2013-08-31 21:21:45 <sipa> abrkn: yes please!
1146 2013-08-31 21:22:05 <abrkn> sipa: which version of bitcoind is required?
1147 2013-08-31 21:22:26 <sipa> the server side doesn't have anything to do with bitcoind
1148 2013-08-31 21:23:00 <sipa> you just need to be able to generate addresses to pay to, put them in payment requests when downloaded, and hook incoming payments to your database (if any)
1149 2013-08-31 21:23:40 <abrkn> sipa: i know absolutely nothing about payment protocol. do you have an url i can read up on?
1150 2013-08-31 21:23:45 <sipa> BIP 70
1151 2013-08-31 21:23:46 <abrkn> k
1152 2013-08-31 21:24:04 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0070
1153 2013-08-31 21:25:14 wrabbit has joined
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1158 2013-08-31 21:29:51 <abrkn> hmm, does having a bootstrap.dat(.old) in your data dir cause bitcoind to shut down after loading it?
1159 2013-08-31 21:30:31 <abrkn> https://gist.github.com/abrkn/be02148910282a2b5be4
1160 2013-08-31 21:30:45 <sipa> no
1161 2013-08-31 21:31:04 <sipa> shutdown requested
1162 2013-08-31 21:31:10 cads has joined
1163 2013-08-31 21:31:29 <abrkn> ok, cant seem to figure out what's requesting it. broken upstart or monit script, then, i guess
1164 2013-08-31 21:31:29 <sipa> you clicked exit, or sent sigint, or sent a stop RPC
1165 2013-08-31 21:35:01 fantabit has joined
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1167 2013-08-31 21:36:24 n0ttgr has joined
1168 2013-08-31 21:36:37 <n0ttgr> i had a few private keys to import
1169 2013-08-31 21:36:39 <n0ttgr> (12)
1170 2013-08-31 21:36:49 <n0ttgr> and ran importprivkey on them all separately in the debug
1171 2013-08-31 21:36:54 <n0ttgr> it does a rescan for every import
1172 2013-08-31 21:37:01 <n0ttgr> does that mean it's going to do 12 rescans or is it clever
1173 2013-08-31 21:37:18 <sipa> use importprivkey <key> false
1174 2013-08-31 21:37:22 <sipa> that disables rescanning
1175 2013-08-31 21:37:29 <sipa> only enable it for the last one
1176 2013-08-31 21:37:29 robocoin_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
1177 2013-08-31 21:37:36 <n0ttgr> i guess now i'll have to kill bitcoin and use -rescan right?
1178 2013-08-31 21:37:44 <n0ttgr> since it's frozen
1179 2013-08-31 21:37:55 <sipa> really?
1180 2013-08-31 21:38:00 <n0ttgr> yup
1181 2013-08-31 21:38:03 <sipa> it shouldn't freeze
1182 2013-08-31 21:38:05 robocoin has joined
1183 2013-08-31 21:38:20 <Luke-Jr> n0ttgr: also, you probably won't want to import them
1184 2013-08-31 21:38:29 <sipa> oh, maybe in bitcoin-qt the gui blocks until the rpc command completes
1185 2013-08-31 21:38:32 <sipa> no idea about that
1186 2013-08-31 21:38:42 <n0ttgr> Luke-Jr: why
1187 2013-08-31 21:38:44 <n0ttgr> oh that reminds me
1188 2013-08-31 21:38:47 <n0ttgr> the reason why i'm importing them
1189 2013-08-31 21:38:48 <Luke-Jr> n0ttgr: it's not safe usually
1190 2013-08-31 21:38:53 <n0ttgr> is multibit will not allow me to spend them
1191 2013-08-31 21:38:57 <n0ttgr> i'm getting a really dorky error
1192 2013-08-31 21:39:04 <n0ttgr> "could not spend bitcoins null"
1193 2013-08-31 21:39:14 <sipa> where do the keys come from?
1194 2013-08-31 21:39:15 <n0ttgr> but that's not for this channel so yeah
1195 2013-08-31 21:39:18 <n0ttgr> multibit
1196 2013-08-31 21:39:30 <sipa> ok
1197 2013-08-31 21:39:38 <Luke-Jr> Multibit development is on-topic here
1198 2013-08-31 21:39:43 <n0ttgr> oh nice
1199 2013-08-31 21:39:49 <Luke-Jr> although I don't know if anyone knowledgable is here
1200 2013-08-31 21:40:33 c0rw1n has joined
1201 2013-08-31 21:42:17 <jcorgan> does anyone have any good references to studies about broadcast-relay type networks, such as bitcoin?  propagation times, connectivity histograms, etc.?
1202 2013-08-31 21:42:42 <sipa> i think the name you want to search for is "gossip networks"
1203 2013-08-31 21:43:52 <jcorgan> thanks
1204 2013-08-31 21:44:28 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
1205 2013-08-31 21:45:45 <jcorgan> "gossip protocols" is a rich vein of information
1206 2013-08-31 21:47:30 Neskia has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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1214 2013-08-31 21:59:48 <n0ttgr> does lockunspent take addresses as parameters?
1215 2013-08-31 22:01:16 rdponticelli has joined
1216 2013-08-31 22:01:32 <Luke-Jr> n0ttgr: it shouldn't
1217 2013-08-31 22:02:01 <Luke-Jr> I think
1218 2013-08-31 22:02:08 <n0ttgr> doesn't seem like it does
1219 2013-08-31 22:02:18 <n0ttgr> i just need a way to lock an address (or an account if necessary)
1220 2013-08-31 22:02:37 <sipa> accounts have nothing to do with addresses
1221 2013-08-31 22:02:50 <sipa> and don't have separate coins
1222 2013-08-31 22:02:55 <sipa> so locking an account is meaningless
1223 2013-08-31 22:03:08 <sipa> use listunspent to find the coins you want to lock, and lock them using lockunspent
1224 2013-08-31 22:03:08 <n0ttgr> alright
1225 2013-08-31 22:03:44 graingert has joined
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1227 2013-08-31 22:03:44 graingert has joined
1228 2013-08-31 22:03:45 jcorgan_ has joined
1229 2013-08-31 22:03:55 <jcorgan_> think i just got nuked
1230 2013-08-31 22:04:00 handle has joined
1231 2013-08-31 22:05:04 <Luke-Jr> n0ttgr: it doesn't really make sense to lock an address either
1232 2013-08-31 22:05:13 <Luke-Jr> n0ttgr: addresses are just destinations that point at your wallet
1233 2013-08-31 22:05:30 <Luke-Jr> locking it would mean.. stopping people from sending to it. which is not possible
1234 2013-08-31 22:05:58 <Luke-Jr> and lockunspent is for coins,  not addresses
1235 2013-08-31 22:06:25 jcorgan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1236 2013-08-31 22:06:26 jcorgan_ is now known as jcorgan
1237 2013-08-31 22:06:36 <sipa> the only use case for that imho is if you want the prevent linkage between one (set of) addresses and another
1238 2013-08-31 22:06:44 <sipa> coin control will allow that, but it's micromanagement
1239 2013-08-31 22:07:05 <sipa> the real solution for that imho is just having separate wallets, but to make that convenient we really need multiwallet support
1240 2013-08-31 22:09:31 * Luke-Jr hopes multiwallet support will allow him using coin control to mix wallets anyway <.<
1241 2013-08-31 22:09:44 <maaku> sipa: there are use cases invoving using an output as a semaphore
1242 2013-08-31 22:09:44 <Luke-Jr> was CC merged yet? <.<
1243 2013-08-31 22:09:57 <maaku> but yes, a separate wallet could manage that as well
1244 2013-08-31 22:09:59 <Luke-Jr> maaku: outputs are outputs, not addresses
1245 2013-08-31 22:10:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i think maaku knows that :)
1246 2013-08-31 22:10:40 <maaku> oh i thought sipa was talking about lockunspent in general
1247 2013-08-31 22:10:47 <Luke-Jr> aha
1248 2013-08-31 22:11:43 <sipa> maaku: oh, lockunspent is more low-level and can be used for several purposes
1249 2013-08-31 22:11:55 <sipa> maaku: but locking an address sounds like a way to prevent linking
1250 2013-08-31 22:12:32 <maaku> it sounds like a way of emulating multi-wallet support
1251 2013-08-31 22:12:40 <maaku> better to just add multi-wallet support :)
1252 2013-08-31 22:12:42 <sipa> yeah
1253 2013-08-31 22:14:06 <maaku> is this the official testnetin a box : https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box ?
1254 2013-08-31 22:14:40 <sipa> there is one on sf.net, but no idea how uptodate it is
1255 2013-08-31 22:14:43 Mqrius has left ("Leaving")
1256 2013-08-31 22:14:44 <Luke-Jr> maaku: there is no official! :P
1257 2013-08-31 22:14:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: gavin just updated it I think
1258 2013-08-31 22:15:04 <maaku> heh, true
1259 2013-08-31 22:15:13 <abrkn> if i run bitcoind with gen=1 on my macbook air, what is the probability that i'll find a block in my lifetime? say 50 years
1260 2013-08-31 22:15:32 <maaku> abrkn: zero
1261 2013-08-31 22:15:43 <maaku> (underflow)
1262 2013-08-31 22:15:46 <abrkn> hehe
1263 2013-08-31 22:15:51 <abrkn> it's just fascinating
1264 2013-08-31 22:16:44 <abrkn> is this more than tinfoil hat speculation? http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/the-well-deserved-fortune-of-satoshi-nakamoto/
1265 2013-08-31 22:16:51 <sipa> ;;genrate 4
1266 2013-08-31 22:16:52 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 4.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 65750060.1491, is 3.05950452541e-05 BTC per day and 1.27479355226e-06 BTC per hour.
1267 2013-08-31 22:17:25 ahmedbodi has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1268 2013-08-31 22:17:32 <sipa> abrkn: about 2%
1269 2013-08-31 22:17:46 <sipa> (assuming the difficulty stays constant, which is absolutely won't)
1270 2013-08-31 22:17:58 <maaku> sipa: ignoring the skyrocking rise in difficulty around the corner...
1271 2013-08-31 22:18:15 <abrkn> sipa: thanks. people ask me about mining all the time (i dont know or care about it) and its cool to quote that
1272 2013-08-31 22:18:16 <sipa> what do you mean "around the corner"? it's been going on for months...
1273 2013-08-31 22:18:17 <maaku> abrkn: there's a long thread on the forum about SDL's analysis
1274 2013-08-31 22:18:43 <maaku> sipa: tip of the iceberg...
1275 2013-08-31 22:18:46 <abrkn> maaku: in your opinion, how probable is the theory?
1276 2013-08-31 22:19:17 <maaku> i see no flaw, so very likely. but what does it matter?
1277 2013-08-31 22:19:46 <sipa> maaku: i don't think the growth *rate* will increase much anymore
1278 2013-08-31 22:20:03 <sipa> relative rate, in %/day, i mean
1279 2013-08-31 22:20:11 <abrkn> maaku: it doesnt matter. for all i know, whoever has those coins, has lost them, died or will die without spending them or giving them away. simply interesting
1280 2013-08-31 22:20:22 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1281 2013-08-31 22:20:35 <maaku> abrkn: bitcoin is still very much in its infancy
1282 2013-08-31 22:20:52 Andrevan has quit ()
1283 2013-08-31 22:20:59 <maaku> if i had that many coins, I'd be hanging on to them too
1284 2013-08-31 22:21:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: considering the cheap 1 Th miners in 2014?
1285 2013-08-31 22:21:41 <maaku> i'd be interested to see if those coins stay dormant if/when a quality coinjoin implementation is released...
1286 2013-08-31 22:21:43 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes
1287 2013-08-31 22:21:59 <abrkn> maaku: coinjoin?
1288 2013-08-31 22:22:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i didn't say it wouldn't increase anymore, just not much :)
1289 2013-08-31 22:22:16 <maaku> abrkn: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0
1290 2013-08-31 22:22:19 <abrkn> maaku: is that one of the mixers?
1291 2013-08-31 22:22:31 ahmedbodi has joined
1292 2013-08-31 22:22:36 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: compressing the transactions of multiple people into one
1293 2013-08-31 22:22:41 <abrkn> i see
1294 2013-08-31 22:23:02 zer0def has joined
1295 2013-08-31 22:23:09 <abrkn> when someone makes a working "no-trust" mass scale mixer, how much volume we'll see
1296 2013-08-31 22:23:13 <sipa> Luke-Jr: 2.5%/day growth is already insane, it means a factor 10 per 3 months...
1297 2013-08-31 22:23:25 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: coinjoin makes mixers unnecessary
1298 2013-08-31 22:23:38 <gmaxwell> I think I ought to set my client to kickban anyone that uses the word "mixer" or "laundry"
1299 2013-08-31 22:24:00 <sipa> brb, need to check my laundry
1300 2013-08-31 22:24:03 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: why?
1301 2013-08-31 22:24:08 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1302 2013-08-31 22:24:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: lol
1303 2013-08-31 22:24:38 <maaku> personally i wish people would focus more  on the other applications like colored coin exchange, matched donations
1304 2013-08-31 22:24:39 <abrkn> gmaxwell: dont get me wrong, i run an exchange with full kyc and whatnot and we'll instantly lifetime ban anyone mentioning sr, etc
1305 2013-08-31 22:24:51 awishformore has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1306 2013-08-31 22:25:08 <sipa> which exchange?
1307 2013-08-31 22:25:26 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: do you have Florida money transmission licenses?
1308 2013-08-31 22:25:28 <abrkn> sipa: justcoin.com ( https://github.com/justcoin/snow )
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1310 2013-08-31 22:25:33 <jcorgan> how does mentioning specific words on irc pose any danger to anyone?
1311 2013-08-31 22:25:38 <sipa> hmm, never heard of it
1312 2013-08-31 22:25:38 <abrkn> Luke-Jr: not american and we do not deal with usd
1313 2013-08-31 22:25:44 <maaku> blockexplorer.com doesn't support P2SH addresses...
1314 2013-08-31 22:25:47 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: aww
1315 2013-08-31 22:25:56 <abrkn> Luke-Jr: i'd love to, but... just so much trouble
1316 2013-08-31 22:26:05 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: it's annoying at least :p
1317 2013-08-31 22:26:15 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: yeah, I imagine
1318 2013-08-31 22:26:33 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: but find me another country that can compete with the USA on freedom and I'll consider moving :p
1319 2013-08-31 22:26:49 <Luke-Jr> or even just basic human rights
1320 2013-08-31 22:26:53 <abrkn> Luke-Jr: dont move here then (norway). we're communist by american standards
1321 2013-08-31 22:26:57 <maaku> Luke-Jr: iceland
1322 2013-08-31 22:26:58 <Luke-Jr> lol
1323 2013-08-31 22:27:12 <jcorgan> i love traveling to scandanavia
1324 2013-08-31 22:27:15 <sipa> whole europe is communist by USA standard, i'm sure
1325 2013-08-31 22:27:40 <abrkn> i guess
1326 2013-08-31 22:27:58 <Luke-Jr> maaku: you aren't trying, are you? :p
1327 2013-08-31 22:27:59 <abrkn> find me a country thats run by economists and i'm buying a plane ticket
1328 2013-08-31 22:28:05 <jcorgan> but never enough to not get back on that return flight
1329 2013-08-31 22:28:09 <Luke-Jr> maaku: Iceland seems to deny some of the most fundamental rights
1330 2013-08-31 22:28:21 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: because some words are loaded with political or legal meaning, thats all. (I didn't mean it seriously— but I'm personally made uncomfortable by the people jumping into irc yabbering about "I just bought the best chronic! and hey how do I launder money!!")
1331 2013-08-31 22:28:23 <abrkn> Luke-Jr: it's been a concern for me that if we ever open usd trading, i can never go to the us
1332 2013-08-31 22:28:36 <sipa> maaku: dude, in Iceland there are laws that prevent you from naming your child in a way that cannot be conjugated in their language!
1333 2013-08-31 22:29:05 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: yeah, i get it, i just have an allergic reaction to automated rules like that :)
1334 2013-08-31 22:29:25 <abrkn> gmaxwell: i think the days of worrying about sr are over. look at media coverage, nobody gives a shit about the stoners anymore. thank god
1335 2013-08-31 22:29:27 jgarzik has joined
1336 2013-08-31 22:30:37 <n0ttgr> is there a multibit developer i can ping about this (serious) bug privately, as i do not want to post on github's issue tracker about it
1337 2013-08-31 22:30:52 <sipa> n0ttgr: mail jim, i guess
1338 2013-08-31 22:30:53 <n0ttgr> looks like they go out of their way to avoid direct communication with users lol
1339 2013-08-31 22:30:59 <jcorgan> we're making progress, it's more acceptable to smoke cannabis or be gay than to be a US congressman
1340 2013-08-31 22:31:01 pooler_ has joined
1341 2013-08-31 22:31:30 <gmaxwell> n0ttgr: why would you bother concealing a bug that just makes sending funds hard?
1342 2013-08-31 22:32:11 <sipa> also, it's already in the log of a public IRC channel
1343 2013-08-31 22:32:19 <abrkn> ^ haha
1344 2013-08-31 22:32:44 <sipa> s/log of a public/public log of a/
1345 2013-08-31 22:34:34 <maaku> sipa: wonder if I can find a way to conjucate Aron');DROP TABLE Users;-- in Icelandic...
1346 2013-08-31 22:35:55 <abrkn> what?
1347 2013-08-31 22:36:02 <abrkn> did you just sqli me on irc...
1348 2013-08-31 22:36:19 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: you must not read xkcd
1349 2013-08-31 22:36:37 <abrkn> Luke-Jr: i catch up every few months. never found a decent rss reader
1350 2013-08-31 22:36:45 <Luke-Jr> it's an old one
1351 2013-08-31 22:36:53 <Luke-Jr> the child is named something with a SQL injection
1352 2013-08-31 22:36:59 <abrkn> oh haha
1353 2013-08-31 22:37:07 <abrkn> i see it now, thats great
1354 2013-08-31 22:37:17 <abrkn> trolling mastery
1355 2013-08-31 22:38:01 <sipa> little bobby tables
1356 2013-08-31 22:38:02 <Luke-Jr> btw, if I suddenly vanish in a few days, let it be a lesson to everyone not to let a cat in your house
1357 2013-08-31 22:38:03 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1358 2013-08-31 22:38:40 <abrkn> have you ever seen one of those github code searches that identify exploitable code? fascinating
1359 2013-08-31 22:38:44 <sipa> xkcd 327
1360 2013-08-31 22:39:26 <sipa> very old :)
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1364 2013-08-31 22:42:45 <Luke-Jr> http://bitcointroll.org/?topic=281043.0 <-- epic fail
1365 2013-08-31 22:43:36 <abrkn> uh
1366 2013-08-31 22:44:55 <abrkn> i have no idea how mining works. you just take last hash + hash of some new transactions + nonce and try to get a hash that meets some criteria?
1367 2013-08-31 22:45:43 <abrkn> well, adjust nonce until hash meets the criteria
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