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12 2013-09-04 00:17:38 <cfields> gmaxwell: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/78caa022f352fd9dc830c2482038d82024dbfc59 better?
13 2013-09-04 00:19:54 <gmaxwell> sounds good. At some point I think we should just serialize the tests and include a simple in-tree replay tool. But since I'm not volunteering to do it right now...
14 2013-09-04 00:21:04 <cfields> yea, this all seems a bit strange to me. but for now, i'm just trying to do a 1:1 port of what currently exists
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31 2013-09-04 00:46:47 <Xenonucleicacid> Hey, im trying to get bitcoind to output getbalance as an intiger as opposed to a float.
32 2013-09-04 00:46:55 <Xenonucleicacid> is this a configarable option with the standard client?
33 2013-09-04 00:47:39 <gmaxwell> Xenonucleicacid: no, though the formating is such that you can drop the dot and you have an integer.
34 2013-09-04 00:48:05 <Xenonucleicacid> That would require i reqrite the entire code i think
35 2013-09-04 00:48:25 <gmaxwell> Rewrite what entire code?
36 2013-09-04 00:48:44 <Xenonucleicacid> php script connecting to it, right?
37 2013-09-04 00:49:00 <Xenonucleicacid> Im running the intersang source, albeit heavily modified
38 2013-09-04 00:49:43 malaimo has joined
39 2013-09-04 00:50:54 <Xenonucleicacid> I tried to compile the bitcoind they reccomended I use that does this by default,
40 2013-09-04 00:51:00 <Xenonucleicacid> however, it wont compile at all.
41 2013-09-04 00:51:09 sserrano44 has joined
42 2013-09-04 00:51:20 <Xenonucleicacid> And i can't figure out why. Anyways, gmaxwell, how would i edit the code to drop the dot?
43 2013-09-04 00:51:54 <gmaxwell> Xenonucleicacid: I wasn't suggesting editing the bitcoind code. I was suggesting changing your application, but it sounds like you have some large codebase there, and then I have no suggestion
44 2013-09-04 00:52:09 <Xenonucleicacid> Alright, then
45 2013-09-04 00:52:22 reneg has joined
46 2013-09-04 00:52:32 <gmaxwell> ... though I would also point out that if you're not able or willing to take full ownership of even minor details like this, maybe you're getting in over your head running software that would handle other people's money! :)
47 2013-09-04 00:52:52 <Xenonucleicacid> My issue is with not being able to compile the ollowing: http://gitorious.org/intersango/bitcoind/source/00c0126dd92cec4ad8428d4317467a1588d8763e:
48 2013-09-04 00:53:01 <Xenonucleicacid> the read file includes some dependanices that dont exist.
49 2013-09-04 00:53:38 <Xenonucleicacid> I just thought i'd approach it from a different way, perhaps first ask how to do it the aforementioned way
50 2013-09-04 00:53:48 <gavinandresen> customised bitcoind? How ancient is that? REALLY bad idea to run ancient versions of bitcoind.....
51 2013-09-04 00:54:11 <gavinandresen> Xenonucleicacid: also, see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proper_Money_Handling_(JSON-RPC)
52 2013-09-04 00:54:20 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds)
53 2013-09-04 00:54:31 <gmaxwell> wow, thats like 0.3.x code!
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57 2013-09-04 00:55:47 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: osx binaries are compiled with gcc on a laptop running OSX 10.6. I'm all for deterministic mac buildsâ¦.
58 2013-09-04 00:55:48 Krellan__ has joined
59 2013-09-04 00:55:53 <Xenonucleicacid> Well then I guess i'll just have to modify an existing version to output an intiger then..
60 2013-09-04 00:55:55 <Xenonucleicacid> Fuck
61 2013-09-04 00:55:58 <Xenonucleicacid> thanks for the help guys
62 2013-09-04 00:57:18 <gavinandresen> Four sets of matching gitian signatures, so I've uploaded the 0.8.4 release to: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.4/?
63 2013-09-04 00:58:06 <gavinandresen> Can y'all proofread the release notes? The big change from 0.8.4rc2 is full disclosure of the critical DoS issue.
64 2013-09-04 00:59:02 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: should we alert now that it's more explicit or just let crashing nodes be the alert if an attack does happen?
65 2013-09-04 00:59:16 <cfields> gavinandresen: my main concern is that would mean osx releases come from linux, which will be very different binaries than the ones run/tested from osx during development
66 2013-09-04 00:59:30 <gavinandresen> I think just crashing is the right answer. There's no danger of remote exploit
67 2013-09-04 00:59:54 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: ::nods:: makes sense to me.
68 2013-09-04 00:59:59 <phantomcircuit> Xenonucleicacid, there is a fairly trivial patch to switch various rpc calls to use integers
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70 2013-09-04 01:00:10 <phantomcircuit> speaking as the person who actually wrote a good amount of that code
71 2013-09-04 01:00:13 <phantomcircuit> dont do it
72 2013-09-04 01:00:54 <phantomcircuit> also as gavinandresen said that fork is ancient
73 2013-09-04 01:01:15 <cfields> gavinandresen: if it's non-trivial, s/theuni/Cory Fields/ :)
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75 2013-09-04 01:01:39 <gavinandresen> it is trivial. So I won't do it.
76 2013-09-04 01:01:43 <gavinandresen> :)
77 2013-09-04 01:01:48 <phantomcircuit> Xenonucleicacid, literally that's 2 years old Wednesday August 31 2011
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79 2013-09-04 01:02:38 <cfields> heh
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83 2013-09-04 01:09:18 <cfields> gavinandresen: when you get a spare min, would you mind explaining to me the significance of applying the patch (contrib/test-patches/temp-revert-2.patch) during the compare test?
84 2013-09-04 01:09:54 <gavinandresen> cfields: that is probably cruft from before we had -regtest mode
85 2013-09-04 01:10:25 <cfields> gavinandresen: so.. drop it?
86 2013-09-04 01:10:38 <gavinandresen> yes
87 2013-09-04 01:11:08 <cfields> roger. thanks.
88 2013-09-04 01:11:34 <cfields> in fact, i had not added it yet as i didn't know what it did, so i'll just not bother with it :)
89 2013-09-04 01:12:49 <gavinandresen> Default sourceforge downloads set to 0.8.4, I'm going to announce to bitcoin-development and will post to bitcointalk
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91 2013-09-04 01:13:17 <gavinandresen> Speaking of bitcointalk⦠better to put the release announcements in the "important announcements" forum or bitcoin-discussion ?
92 2013-09-04 01:13:43 <gmaxwell> Put it in important announcements.
93 2013-09-04 01:13:48 <jgarzik> +1
94 2013-09-04 01:13:53 * jgarzik disappears for baby bedtime
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100 2013-09-04 01:19:33 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'm not a bitcointalk moderator any more, so don't have permission to post in Important Announcements. Can you post the announcement?
101 2013-09-04 01:20:48 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I'm not a moderator in that subforum, however if you post the announcement in the development/technology subforum I can make magic things happen.
102 2013-09-04 01:20:57 <TheLordOfTime> hehe
103 2013-09-04 01:21:00 <Xenonucleicacid> bitcoindtalk is a ;ile of shit
104 2013-09-04 01:21:15 <gmaxwell> (I can't post there either but I can move posts there!)
105 2013-09-04 01:21:49 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: In the past, I've done release candidates --> dev/tech, final releases bitcoin-discussion
106 2013-09-04 01:22:26 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: sure, I'm saying post in dev/tech and then in seconds after you do that I'll move the post to Important Announcements.
107 2013-09-04 01:22:43 <gavinandresen> ok, posting now...
108 2013-09-04 01:23:55 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287351
109 2013-09-04 01:24:07 <gmaxwell> @#$#@ Darnit, theymos fixed the bug!
110 2013-09-04 01:24:25 <Luke-Jr> Xenonucleicacid: intersango's crazy code expects a String last I checked :/
111 2013-09-04 01:26:08 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, that it does (actually did but that's not important)
112 2013-09-04 01:26:50 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: K. I moved it to bitcoin-discussion, and prodded the staff forum to get someone to move it. The link is stable regardless of where its placed.
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117 2013-09-04 01:29:40 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: spiffy. I'm updating the links on the bitcoin wiki homepage
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126 2013-09-04 02:02:10 <jgarzik> hurrah 0.8.4 :)
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128 2013-09-04 02:04:03 saivann has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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130 2013-09-04 02:04:25 <saivann> bitcoin.org is updated and I sent a email to the maintainer of weusecoins.com ( the site is actually not updated since a while )
131 2013-09-04 02:05:35 <jgarzik> saivann, thanks
132 2013-09-04 02:07:31 reneg_ has joined
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134 2013-09-04 02:08:31 <gmaxwell> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1loqvi/bitcoinqt_d_version_084_released/ reddited too
135 2013-09-04 02:08:50 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
136 2013-09-04 02:09:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, gavinandresen: one problem with the 'move' on bitcointalk.org is that normal users cannot reply to the thread at all
137 2013-09-04 02:09:17 <jgarzik> it would be better to copy
138 2013-09-04 02:09:36 <jgarzik> (and it seems there are now two copies of the thread in Important Announcements, neither of which may be replied-to :))
139 2013-09-04 02:10:44 <gmaxwell> Seem theymos copied and someone else moved. :P
140 2013-09-04 02:11:12 <gmaxwell> Can you hear the benny hill music?
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148 2013-09-04 02:19:26 <jgarzik> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1loojy/bitcoinqt_bitcoind_version_084_released_fixes/ for the upvote. (somebody beat me to it :))
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157 2013-09-04 02:25:46 <jgarzik> Man, what a dick move.
158 2013-09-04 02:25:59 <jgarzik> My comment on 0.8.4 got downvoted to -1: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1loojy/bitcoinqt_bitcoind_version_084_released_fixes/cc1acwf
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161 2013-09-04 02:26:36 <theymos> gavinandresen: IMO your 0.8.4 topic should be unlocked so that it can be bumped in everyone's Unread Topics constantly. Shall I do this?
162 2013-09-04 02:27:01 ticean has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
163 2013-09-04 02:27:19 <gavinandresen> theymos: yes, thanks
164 2013-09-04 02:27:25 <theymos> ok
165 2013-09-04 02:27:39 <jgarzik> it started out as unlocked, even. The move to Important Announcements wound up locking it, I think.
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167 2013-09-04 02:27:57 <theymos> I fixed all that.
168 2013-09-04 02:28:02 <jgarzik> great, thanks
169 2013-09-04 02:28:12 <cfields> gavinandresen: did you try 'make deploy' on autotools branch?
170 2013-09-04 02:28:52 <gavinandresen> cfields: no, didn't try that.
171 2013-09-04 02:29:24 <cfields> gavinandresen: mind giving it a shot? I'm trying to determine where the big snags are going to be post-master
172 2013-09-04 02:29:34 <cfields> it worked fine for me on 10.6, but it was hit-or-miss on 10.8
173 2013-09-04 02:30:14 <cfields> (when you're not knee-deep in release-mode, of course)
174 2013-09-04 02:31:31 <gavinandresen> cfields: getting pull-tester happy is higher priority
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177 2013-09-04 02:36:36 <cfields> gavinandresen: pull-tester is ready on my side after a rebase afaik
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185 2013-09-04 02:44:59 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: some guy is saying you just had "no" in your comment. Is he a dirty liar who needs a downvote for lying dirtily? I've seen worse.. :(
186 2013-09-04 02:45:54 <E1ven> I'm trying to figure out the right way to script a weird multi-party exchange. Is this an appropriate place to ask, or would something like StackExchange or Reddit be more appropriate? I certainly don't want to be intrusive on dev. :/
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189 2013-09-04 02:48:13 <Xenonucleicacid> this is ridiculous.
190 2013-09-04 02:48:25 <Xenonucleicacid> i cant figure out how to modify bitcoind to use an intiger as opposed to a float
191 2013-09-04 02:49:23 reneg_ has joined
192 2013-09-04 02:49:25 <Luke-Jr> Xenonucleicacid: bitcoinrpc.cpp
193 2013-09-04 02:49:31 <Luke-Jr> AmountFromValue and ValueFromAmount
194 2013-09-04 02:49:38 <Luke-Jr> remove the COIN multiply/divide
195 2013-09-04 02:50:03 <Luke-Jr> pretty simple really
196 2013-09-04 02:50:14 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
197 2013-09-04 02:51:59 <Xenonucleicacid> Will this modifucation allow a cuirrecnt bitcoind to work with intersango's code?
198 2013-09-04 02:52:05 <gavinandresen> must⦠resist⦠getting sucked into double-precision and JSON Numbers argumentâ¦â¦
199 2013-09-04 02:52:15 <Xenonucleicacid> i'm using the modified vrsion that was made for exchanging AUD
200 2013-09-04 02:52:36 <Xenonucleicacid> I jsut want to get something working before I make any further changes so that i know it works
201 2013-09-04 02:52:48 <Luke-Jr> Xenonucleicacid: as I mentioned earlier, intersango expects *Strings*, not Numbers, so no.
202 2013-09-04 02:52:56 btcbtc has joined
203 2013-09-04 02:52:56 <Xenonucleicacid> Wait
204 2013-09-04 02:53:05 <Xenonucleicacid> so then how do I get intersango running proepryl?
205 2013-09-04 02:53:07 <Xenonucleicacid> *properly
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207 2013-09-04 02:53:16 <Xenonucleicacid> Can i modify it to pit out a string?
208 2013-09-04 02:53:25 <Luke-Jr> Xenonucleicacid: sure, but it's a bit more complex
209 2013-09-04 02:53:34 <Xenonucleicacid> im not a programmer.
210 2013-09-04 02:53:41 <Xenonucleicacid> is there an already modified version that can be downloaded?
211 2013-09-04 02:53:43 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: there's no argument? :P
212 2013-09-04 02:53:53 <Luke-Jr> Xenonucleicacid: no, it's not something that's ever been supported basically
213 2013-09-04 02:54:10 <Xenonucleicacid> Well then im screwed.
214 2013-09-04 02:54:17 <Luke-Jr> :/
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216 2013-09-04 02:54:44 <Xenonucleicacid> I dont see how i can fix this problem then
217 2013-09-04 02:55:07 <Xenonucleicacid> is the ruby bitcoin-central code any better?
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220 2013-09-04 02:56:22 <Luke-Jr> Xenonucleicacid: I have doubts that there is any exchange software that works without a programmer involved.
221 2013-09-04 02:57:00 <Xenonucleicacid> Oh no, i can use php and ruby
222 2013-09-04 02:57:03 <Xenonucleicacid> just not c++
223 2013-09-04 02:57:21 <Xenonucleicacid> i have the intersango thing set up just fine, except for the fact that i cant get the damn bitcoind to compile
224 2013-09-04 02:57:28 <Xenonucleicacid> (It's an old 0.3 version of botcoind)
225 2013-09-04 02:57:31 <Luke-Jr> then maybe it'd be easier to modify the PHP/Ruby to handle BTC Numbers?
226 2013-09-04 02:57:34 <Xenonucleicacid> which is why i dont want to use it
227 2013-09-04 02:57:41 <Xenonucleicacid> The codebase is huge dude :(
228 2013-09-04 02:57:47 <Luke-Jr> 0.3 bitcoinds will simply NOT work, even if you compile it
229 2013-09-04 02:58:05 <Xenonucleicacid> Then how do half the exchanges that use the intersango code run?
230 2013-09-04 02:58:21 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit mentioned the public code you linked was obsolete
231 2013-09-04 02:58:29 <Xenonucleicacid> Yes
232 2013-09-04 02:58:33 <Luke-Jr> I'm not sure if the newer code is also public or not
233 2013-09-04 02:58:38 <Xenonucleicacid> It is not.
234 2013-09-04 02:58:46 <Xenonucleicacid> But the old code still works, nonetheless.
235 2013-09-04 02:58:46 <Luke-Jr> well, that's your answer then :/
236 2013-09-04 02:58:53 <Xenonucleicacid> The bitcoind that comes with it does not though.
237 2013-09-04 02:58:53 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't sound like it!
238 2013-09-04 02:59:16 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
239 2013-09-04 03:00:42 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, he is correct
240 2013-09-04 03:01:01 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, while my "No" was factually accurate, it was admittedly not as informative as it could have been
241 2013-09-04 03:01:24 ticean has joined
242 2013-09-04 03:04:14 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ETA on PPA update? :x
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248 2013-09-04 03:14:11 <warren> Was there any confirmation that the MacOS X leveldb fix worked?
249 2013-09-04 03:14:21 <warren> folks seemed uncertain about that 2 weeks ago
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267 2013-09-04 03:35:24 <SomeoneWeird> http://cryptome.org/2013/09/computer-forensics-2013.pdf
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269 2013-09-04 03:38:01 <SomeoneWeird> bottom of page 15
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271 2013-09-04 03:38:46 <gmaxwell> âFruit of the poisonous treeâ can be circumvented
272 2013-09-04 03:38:47 <gmaxwell> â¢
273 2013-09-04 03:38:47 <gmaxwell> The use of backdoors cannot be detected or proven
274 2013-09-04 03:38:47 <gmaxwell> â¢
275 2013-09-04 03:38:47 <gmaxwell> Vendors are legally and commercially prevented from
276 2013-09-04 03:38:49 <gmaxwell> acknowledging their backdoors. Defense will not be
277 2013-09-04 03:38:51 <gmaxwell> able to prove their existence
278 2013-09-04 03:38:53 justusranvier has joined
279 2013-09-04 03:38:54 <gmaxwell> â¢
280 2013-09-04 03:38:56 <gmaxwell> The files can be described as âforensically obtainedâ
281 2013-09-04 03:39:32 <gmaxwell> yea.. thats pretty fantastic.
282 2013-09-04 03:40:27 <SomeoneWeird> seems everything is backdoored
283 2013-09-04 03:40:30 <k9quaint> I just go in the front door
284 2013-09-04 03:40:49 <k9quaint> huge ass line of NSA nerds out back
285 2013-09-04 03:41:12 <gmaxwell> SomeoneWeird: don't use binary closed source security tools.. note that linux/dmcrypt is not listed there. :P
286 2013-09-04 03:41:34 <SomeoneWeird> truecrypt is foss is it not?
287 2013-09-04 03:41:37 <k9quaint> binary closed source security tools <-- jumbo shrimp
288 2013-09-04 03:41:59 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird, I don't think so
289 2013-09-04 03:42:10 DBordello has joined
290 2013-09-04 03:42:11 <SomeoneWeird> http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/source-code
291 2013-09-04 03:42:20 <SomeoneWeird> "TrueCrypt is open-source and free software. The complete source code of TrueCrypt (written in C, C++, and assembly) is freely available for peer review at:
292 2013-09-04 03:42:21 <SomeoneWeird> "
293 2013-09-04 03:42:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, yeah, that Legality slide... wow
294 2013-09-04 03:42:27 <gmaxwell> truecrypt has source available, but it's under a screwed up license, and very few users compile from source... and the binaries are not reproducable.
295 2013-09-04 03:42:35 <SomeoneWeird> gmaxwell, i see
296 2013-09-04 03:42:39 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird, ah, I stand corrected
297 2013-09-04 03:42:53 <SomeoneWeird> :)
298 2013-09-04 03:43:06 <gmaxwell> would be pretty exciting to show that there was a backdoor in the binary not in the source though.
299 2013-09-04 03:43:35 <gmaxwell> it also may be the case that the presenter there is simply mistaken about truecrypt. (or, e.g. is mistaking a brutforcing tool for a backdoor in that case)
300 2013-09-04 03:43:51 <SomeoneWeird> possible
301 2013-09-04 03:44:43 qbasicer_ has joined
302 2013-09-04 03:44:46 <k9quaint> believe powerpoint presentations at your own peril
303 2013-09-04 03:44:53 qbasicer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
304 2013-09-04 03:45:08 <SomeoneWeird> i support you could compile it yourself and compare it to the binaries
305 2013-09-04 03:45:13 <SomeoneWeird> k9quaint, of course
306 2013-09-04 03:45:24 sserrano44 has joined
307 2013-09-04 03:45:33 <gmaxwell> SomeoneWeird: could also be counter intel to list secure tools along with backdoored ones.
308 2013-09-04 03:45:50 <SomeoneWeird> that's quite possible too
309 2013-09-04 03:45:54 <gmaxwell> As a way to make people just give up on security: "it's all backdoored!"
310 2013-09-04 03:45:55 <SomeoneWeird> i wonder if this was classified or not
311 2013-09-04 03:45:58 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
312 2013-09-04 03:46:09 <SomeoneWeird> hm probably not
313 2013-09-04 03:46:24 <k9quaint> or there could be mitigating circumstances that allow them to bypass some tools
314 2013-09-04 03:46:26 <gmaxwell> I do note that there has been some interesting discussion about how the uk was able to get into a truecrypt volume on greewald's partner's system.
315 2013-09-04 03:46:37 <SomeoneWeird> oh?
316 2013-09-04 03:46:41 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: keylogger ;P
317 2013-09-04 03:46:41 <SomeoneWeird> source?
318 2013-09-04 03:46:44 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: e.g. windows ignoring mlock and swapping out keys.
319 2013-09-04 03:47:02 <SomeoneWeird> ... purposely >.>
320 2013-09-04 03:47:03 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: I stopped reading after you typed "windows"
321 2013-09-04 03:47:07 <SomeoneWeird> lol
322 2013-09-04 03:47:17 Application has joined
323 2013-09-04 03:47:18 <gmaxwell> SomeoneWeird: e.g. http://news.yahoo.com/uk-asked-n-y-times-destroy-snowden-material-175418363--finance.html
324 2013-09-04 03:47:27 <SomeoneWeird> ah, right
325 2013-09-04 03:47:30 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: well you wouldn't be using truecrypt in Linux.
326 2013-09-04 03:47:42 <SomeoneWeird> some people do
327 2013-09-04 03:47:48 <SomeoneWeird> i used to
328 2013-09-04 03:47:52 <SomeoneWeird> (then i got smart)
329 2013-09-04 03:47:53 <gmaxwell> someone should point out that cryptome deck here: http://forums.truecrypt.org/viewforum.php?f=2
330 2013-09-04 03:48:28 <k9quaint> truecrypt is windows only?
331 2013-09-04 03:48:42 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: it's not windows only but linux has native encryption.
332 2013-09-04 03:48:55 <k9quaint> ah, true that
333 2013-09-04 03:49:08 <gmaxwell> And truecrypt is kludgy and slow in comparison, the only reason you should use it in linux is if you don't know better or if you need to move media beyween OSes.
334 2013-09-04 03:49:25 <k9quaint> I leave everything unencrypted, its easier than torrenting my midget porn to the NSA
335 2013-09-04 03:49:40 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
336 2013-09-04 03:50:34 <k9quaint> it turns out that compressing video streams has nothing to do with the size of the people depicted :(
337 2013-09-04 03:50:34 cypher has joined
338 2013-09-04 03:50:59 <gmaxwell> I like where it points out that mobile operators are scanning stuff and reporting it automatically.
339 2013-09-04 03:51:15 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
340 2013-09-04 03:51:34 guruvan has joined
341 2013-09-04 03:52:11 <midnightmagic> i was sending files to a friend via my server; watching my nginx logs I saw that the private URLs I gave him were auto-grabbed by places in taiwan, usa, and japan.
342 2013-09-04 03:52:42 <midnightmagic> not cool. we surmised it was some kind of antivirus, but not a clue proper.
343 2013-09-04 03:53:23 <midnightmagic> unfortunately the native encryption in linux is mostly linux-only. :-(
344 2013-09-04 03:53:57 <midnightmagic> (as much as a cgd volume on NetBSD appears to be *BSD-only)
345 2013-09-04 03:54:38 <SomeoneWeird> midnightmagic, yep, apparently skype does that too
346 2013-09-04 03:55:18 <k9quaint> midnightmagic: were the URLs spiderable?
347 2013-09-04 03:55:20 <midnightmagic> SomeoneWeird: very f'ing evil
348 2013-09-04 03:55:32 <gmaxwell> it would be fun to use one of these MD5 attacks to start making files that have the same md5 as known child porn.
349 2013-09-04 03:55:39 <k9quaint> and how did you communicate the file URLs?
350 2013-09-04 03:55:43 <midnightmagic> k9quaint: Absolutely not. I am 99.99% certain.
351 2013-09-04 03:56:11 <k9quaint> if you used gmail, the googlebot may have spidered them to calculate ads to show next to your plans for nuclear bombs
352 2013-09-04 03:56:21 <gmaxwell> too bad afaik none of the existing md5 attacks are agreeable to matching a particular hash. :(
353 2013-09-04 03:56:27 <k9quaint> (and now the NSA is reading these logs)
354 2013-09-04 03:56:38 <midnightmagic> k9quaint: Via ichat initially, and then via voice for a secind test.
355 2013-09-04 03:57:01 sacredchao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
356 2013-09-04 03:57:08 <gmaxwell> you got a URL fetched that you sent over voice?!
357 2013-09-04 03:57:16 <gmaxwell> that must be the person's machine.
358 2013-09-04 03:57:21 <k9quaint> midnightmagic: where was your friend located?
359 2013-09-04 03:57:38 DiabloD3 has joined
360 2013-09-04 03:57:51 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: he had to type it in. Yes we surmisdd it was some kind of AV either hiding in his machine or semi-automatically done on the fly by telus.
361 2013-09-04 03:57:59 <midnightmagic> it was g-d creepy at first.
362 2013-09-04 03:58:07 sacredchao has joined
363 2013-09-04 03:58:09 Xenonucleicacid1 has joined
364 2013-09-04 03:58:09 <midnightmagic> k9quaint: canada.
365 2013-09-04 03:58:18 <gavinandresen> FYI: mac metadata files ended up in the bitcoin-0.8.4-linux.tar.gz file; I'm uploading a clean version and updated SHASUMS files to sourceforge now.
366 2013-09-04 03:58:32 <k9quaint> why were you talking with filth from canada?
367 2013-09-04 03:58:48 Clown has joined
368 2013-09-04 03:59:12 Clown is now known as Guest5846
369 2013-09-04 03:59:13 <k9quaint> that rules out a proxy somewhere caching it
370 2013-09-04 03:59:42 <midnightmagic> k9quaint: because it's my kind of scum.
371 2013-09-04 03:59:46 <SomeoneWeird> lol
372 2013-09-04 04:00:01 <k9quaint> midnightmagic: was kind of HTTP method were the requests?
373 2013-09-04 04:00:10 avantgeek has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
374 2013-09-04 04:00:14 <pigeons> PROPFIND
375 2013-09-04 04:00:26 Xenonucleicacid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
376 2013-09-04 04:00:26 dansmithbtc2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
377 2013-09-04 04:00:26 ivan\ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
378 2013-09-04 04:00:27 licnep has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
379 2013-09-04 04:00:27 stingray` has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
380 2013-09-04 04:00:27 has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
381 2013-09-04 04:00:27 hopey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
382 2013-09-04 04:00:28 hopey has joined
383 2013-09-04 04:00:28 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
384 2013-09-04 04:01:03 ivan\ has joined
385 2013-09-04 04:02:03 <k9quaint> /s/was/what
386 2013-09-04 04:03:16 <SomeoneWeird> HTTP/NSAPROBE
387 2013-09-04 04:03:26 stingsay` has joined
388 2013-09-04 04:04:38 avantgeek has joined
389 2013-09-04 04:11:09 avantgeek has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
390 2013-09-04 04:14:10 qbasicer_ has quit (Read error: No route to host)
391 2013-09-04 04:14:15 avantgeek_ has joined
392 2013-09-04 04:14:32 <midnightmagic> k9quaint: a fetch of a limited neader of information
393 2013-09-04 04:14:36 qbasicer has joined
394 2013-09-04 04:14:47 <midnightmagic> header even
395 2013-09-04 04:15:01 ansant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
396 2013-09-04 04:15:29 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
397 2013-09-04 04:16:15 <k9quaint> so it was a HEAD request?
398 2013-09-04 04:17:09 <midnightmagic> no, head won't retrieve as much data as they retrieved.
399 2013-09-04 04:17:16 <midnightmagic> one sec lemme see if i can find it again
400 2013-09-04 04:17:47 <jgarzik> Computer Forensics for Prosecutors 2012 http://cryptome.org/2013/09/computer-forensics-2012.pdf
401 2013-09-04 04:17:55 <jgarzik> (last year's version; not yet read it)
402 2013-09-04 04:18:46 <jgarzik> SilentSense Behavioral Spying on Smartphones http://cryptome.org/2013/09/silent-sense-spy.pdf
403 2013-09-04 04:19:36 avantgeek_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
404 2013-09-04 04:20:26 avantgeek has joined
405 2013-09-04 04:20:47 <k9quaint> "Working around Encryption: âKnownâ backdoors " on page 52
406 2013-09-04 04:24:17 <jgarzik> cryptome: the real wikileaks
407 2013-09-04 04:25:54 <jgarzik> I wonder if the sudden increase in Tor usage was the government spinning up a bunch of nodes, and try and own most of the network </tin foil>
408 2013-09-04 04:26:04 <SomeoneWeird> hah
409 2013-09-04 04:26:38 <Eneerge> page 52
410 2013-09-04 04:26:39 <Eneerge> ?
411 2013-09-04 04:27:35 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, the 2012 version says "known" (with the quotes) backdoors
412 2013-09-04 04:27:43 <phantomcircuit> but does not specifically list anything
413 2013-09-04 04:28:00 christopherkohle has joined
414 2013-09-04 04:28:08 <phantomcircuit> it's also much more careful in handling of exculpatory evidence
415 2013-09-04 04:28:14 sserrano44 has joined
416 2013-09-04 04:28:30 <phantomcircuit> a lot less un-constitutionalish
417 2013-09-04 04:28:35 <gmaxwell> yea, the 2012 version isn't ... scummy. also lots of neat hands on stuff.
418 2013-09-04 04:29:10 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: nah, actual usage has gone up in disproportion to the number of new nodes.
419 2013-09-04 04:30:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's not to say the government hasn't (already) owned most of the network
420 2013-09-04 04:31:14 fant has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
421 2013-09-04 04:31:57 <gmaxwell> sure sure, I hope to never be someone who's primary threat model is that not only a major-nation state but one that wouldn't care about giving away that they had such control.. you're really screwed at that point regardless of the specifics.
422 2013-09-04 04:32:23 <midnightmagic> 208.50.101.153 - - [01/Aug/2013:08:34:36 +0000] "GET /for_justice.rar HTTP/1.1" 200 227519 "http://temp.com" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)"
423 2013-09-04 04:32:29 <midnightmagic> ^^ example
424 2013-09-04 04:33:59 <midnightmagic> the file is many gigs of data
425 2013-09-04 04:34:48 <k9quaint> could you pastebin the redacted logs?
426 2013-09-04 04:35:10 <midnightmagic> huh? that is 100% full line
427 2013-09-04 04:35:31 <midnightmagic> unmodified
428 2013-09-04 04:35:34 <k9quaint> ah
429 2013-09-04 04:35:56 <midnightmagic> yes the file was called "for_justice.rar"
430 2013-09-04 04:35:58 <midnightmagic> lol
431 2013-09-04 04:36:24 <k9quaint> at least it wasn't furries+midgets.rar
432 2013-09-04 04:36:55 <gmaxwell> http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/forum/ie8-windows_other/how-to-stop-the-smartscreen-filter-from-accessing/fc74131c-35fc-4a26-adf6-864d22367de6?page=2&msgId=b99a2e0d-f476-49fb-85ad-c81c2b68b06a
433 2013-09-04 04:37:02 <gmaxwell> (google that ip)
434 2013-09-04 04:37:15 johnsoft has joined
435 2013-09-04 04:37:41 <k9quaint> the only thing nonnefarious that I can think of is if it was some sort of malware sniffing proxy
436 2013-09-04 04:38:47 <k9quaint> looks like that IP lands somewhere in MSN.net
437 2013-09-04 04:39:23 <k9quaint> you will need to hose down your nginx instance after interacting with that villainous scum of redmond
438 2013-09-04 04:40:58 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, check for that ip address
439 2013-09-04 04:41:06 <phantomcircuit> return gzip'd null file
440 2013-09-04 04:41:15 <gmaxwell> See the microsoft faq.
441 2013-09-04 04:41:16 <phantomcircuit> laugh as smartscreen filter stops working world wide
442 2013-09-04 04:41:43 <phantomcircuit> goto jail for violation of computer unauthorized access
443 2013-09-04 04:41:52 <phantomcircuit> stop laughing
444 2013-09-04 04:44:05 <cfields> sounds to me like the url was entered (send or receive side) into some application that uses an IE control to render part of its interface, and that control obeys IEs settings wrt smartscreen's pre-filtering
445 2013-09-04 04:44:29 <cfields> might not be nice, but that doesn't sound all that spooky to me
446 2013-09-04 04:45:07 freewil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
447 2013-09-04 04:45:49 E1ven has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
448 2013-09-04 04:49:06 <pigeons> yay windows!
449 2013-09-04 04:49:53 E1ven has joined
450 2013-09-04 04:56:41 clav8 has joined
451 2013-09-04 04:57:38 <jgarzik> hasn't reactos replaced that yet?
452 2013-09-04 04:58:26 E1ven has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
453 2013-09-04 04:58:39 <jgarzik> or at least some rogue "dirty white hat" produces a gitian build of leaked Windows XP source code, and works on closing all the security holes </dreaming on>
454 2013-09-04 04:59:00 <jgarzik> between WINE and ReactOS, surely Windows is 110% rewritten at this point
455 2013-09-04 04:59:06 mintyFresh has joined
456 2013-09-04 04:59:26 E1ven has joined
457 2013-09-04 05:00:32 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
458 2013-09-04 05:02:25 AndyOfiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
459 2013-09-04 05:02:35 mintmoney has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
460 2013-09-04 05:04:10 idstam has joined
461 2013-09-04 05:06:36 freewil has joined
462 2013-09-04 05:14:12 mrkent has joined
463 2013-09-04 05:14:13 clav8 has quit (Quit: clav8)
464 2013-09-04 05:16:10 E1ven has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
465 2013-09-04 05:19:30 E1ven has joined
466 2013-09-04 05:19:31 MinerMan has joined
467 2013-09-04 05:21:35 ansant has joined
468 2013-09-04 05:21:39 macboz has joined
469 2013-09-04 05:26:37 <gmaxwell> tehehe: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287136.msg3076181#msg3076181
470 2013-09-04 05:29:37 ansant has left ()
471 2013-09-04 05:30:34 <k9quaint> hahaha
472 2013-09-04 05:32:03 ThomasV has joined
473 2013-09-04 05:34:41 meLon has quit (Quit: leaving)
474 2013-09-04 05:36:38 meLon has joined
475 2013-09-04 05:37:41 Applicat_ has joined
476 2013-09-04 05:37:52 hotsocks has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
477 2013-09-04 05:38:54 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
478 2013-09-04 05:39:21 rdponticelli has joined
479 2013-09-04 05:39:25 <freewil> looks like the consensus is litecoin is better
480 2013-09-04 05:39:33 <freewil> thats what i read today
481 2013-09-04 05:40:33 <jgarzik> freewil, take it to #bitcoin or #litecoin please
482 2013-09-04 05:40:52 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
483 2013-09-04 05:42:31 <freewil> i didnt start the convo
484 2013-09-04 05:43:43 <jgarzik> irrelevant
485 2013-09-04 05:44:10 normanrichards has quit ()
486 2013-09-04 05:44:18 <freewil> alright im sorry
487 2013-09-04 05:45:50 * gmaxwell tanks altcoin prices, watch this:
488 2013-09-04 05:46:16 <gmaxwell> Maybe we should consider adopting new licensing terms that prevent the altcoins from just exploiting the new code and fixes we write.
489 2013-09-04 05:46:22 <gmaxwell> :P
490 2013-09-04 05:46:31 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm starting some work on the pull-tester; I'm going to clean up the fetch-from-github-and-test code (pull-tester.py), move the authentication token stuff to environment variables, and check it into the Bitcoin tree as qa/pulltester/
491 2013-09-04 05:47:37 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: my immediate goal will be to be able to run the pull-tester locally on my development machine, so I don't have to login to jenkins to work onit
492 2013-09-04 05:55:09 Transisto has quit ()
493 2013-09-04 05:56:21 licnep has joined
494 2013-09-04 05:57:21 Transisto has joined
495 2013-09-04 05:58:28 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
496 2013-09-04 06:00:14 <aceat64> I finally got around to making a pull request for that "copy transaction ID" thing that was bugging me
497 2013-09-04 06:01:30 gjs278 has joined
498 2013-09-04 06:08:42 JyZyXEL has joined
499 2013-09-04 06:13:38 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: can you make sure that in 0.8.4 on OSX that the wallet unlock in the GUI actually works: this guy is saying it didn't work after the upgrade but worked if he downgraded: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287434.0
500 2013-09-04 06:14:46 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
501 2013-09-04 06:14:48 stretchw_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
502 2013-09-04 06:15:57 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
503 2013-09-04 06:16:18 christopherkohle has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
504 2013-09-04 06:16:29 BTCOxygen has joined
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507 2013-09-04 06:18:15 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
508 2013-09-04 06:18:25 Aexoden has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
509 2013-09-04 06:18:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: "works for me" (I just successfully unlocked to sign a test message)
510 2013-09-04 06:18:43 Aexoden has joined
511 2013-09-04 06:19:13 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
512 2013-09-04 06:20:03 <gavinandresen> sending works for me, too.
513 2013-09-04 06:20:20 gjs278 has joined
514 2013-09-04 06:22:08 * jgarzik wants to update bitcoin.git to support the multibit-like ---BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE--- wrapping
515 2013-09-04 06:22:37 <jgarzik> make it a real format
516 2013-09-04 06:24:01 <warren> +1
517 2013-09-04 06:24:04 mrkent has joined
518 2013-09-04 06:24:37 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
519 2013-09-04 06:27:08 quijibo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
520 2013-09-04 06:29:53 avantgeek has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
521 2013-09-04 06:30:12 COGSMITH has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
522 2013-09-04 06:30:57 abrkn has joined
523 2013-09-04 06:31:20 <jgarzik> BitPay is starting to use SINs, so we'll want some equivalent variant for SIN as well
524 2013-09-04 06:31:28 Freebitcoinslist has joined
525 2013-09-04 06:31:51 <Freebitcoinslist> hello all
526 2013-09-04 06:31:55 <Freebitcoinslist> I have a question
527 2013-09-04 06:32:59 <Freebitcoinslist> I would like to know if there is a way to bulk convert Private Keys formatted like this " Private Key WIF (51 characters base58, starts with a '5') " and convert them all to this " Private Key WIF (compressed, 52 characters base58, starts with a 'K' or 'L')
528 2013-09-04 06:34:57 sbelmont has joined
529 2013-09-04 06:35:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: "meh" makes the data a lot larger esp in cases for challenges where the data being signed is known.
530 2013-09-04 06:35:51 <sipa> Freebitcoinslist: you cannot convert them really, the resulting address will be dofferent
531 2013-09-04 06:35:58 <gmaxwell> different too.
532 2013-09-04 06:36:45 <Freebitcoinslist> would they still be valid btc addresses?
533 2013-09-04 06:37:06 <gmaxwell> Yes but they would be different addresses.. so why bother converting them, just generate new ones.
534 2013-09-04 06:37:36 COGSMITH has joined
535 2013-09-04 06:38:16 viperhr1 has joined
536 2013-09-04 06:38:43 <Freebitcoinslist> Ok i dont mind if they are different I just need them converted
537 2013-09-04 06:39:14 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
538 2013-09-04 06:42:00 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
539 2013-09-04 06:42:09 gjs278 has joined
540 2013-09-04 06:43:38 <Freebitcoinslist> So how would i convert them
541 2013-09-04 06:43:56 <sipa> i don't see the point
542 2013-09-04 06:44:06 <sipa> there is no easy way to do it
543 2013-09-04 06:44:26 <Freebitcoinslist> I am trying to import them to multibit and multibit only uses the Compressed format not the uncompressed format
544 2013-09-04 06:45:09 <sipa> so just generate a bunch of new addresses in multibit
545 2013-09-04 06:45:57 <sipa> ;;genrate 330
546 2013-09-04 06:46:00 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 330.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 86933017.7712, is 0.00190904623671 BTC per day and 7.95435931964e-05 BTC per hour.
547 2013-09-04 06:46:20 <gmaxwell> Freebitcoinslist: WHAT?! multibit won't let you import a noncompressed private key? ... I don't believe you.
548 2013-09-04 06:46:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: that would be a surprise to me as well...
549 2013-09-04 06:46:41 <gmaxwell> or generate some compressed addresses outside of multibit.
550 2013-09-04 06:46:53 * gmaxwell tests
551 2013-09-04 06:47:55 paracyst has quit ()
552 2013-09-04 06:48:07 <gmaxwell> hm. I can't see any way to just import a WIF key into it.
553 2013-09-04 06:48:30 <gmaxwell> it seems to only want to read a multibit "key" file.
554 2013-09-04 06:49:34 <gmaxwell> Import private keys from the reference client
555 2013-09-04 06:49:34 <gmaxwell> This is not currently supported. The easiest way to achieve it is to simply perform a standard Bitcoin transaction to the address provided by MultiBit.
556 2013-09-04 06:49:42 <gmaxwell> :-/
557 2013-09-04 06:50:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: for better or for worse, it is probably safer to not let people import...
558 2013-09-04 06:50:48 quijibo has joined
559 2013-09-04 06:50:51 <gmaxwell> oh it can import, but only from bc.i and multibit wallet files.
560 2013-09-04 06:51:13 <gmaxwell> looks like the multibit key files are WIF format with a timestamp.
561 2013-09-04 06:51:24 <gmaxwell> (it also notes that an import of a bc.i wallet will rescan the whole blockchain)
562 2013-09-04 06:51:30 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
563 2013-09-04 06:51:36 * gmaxwell manually creates a multibit key file.
564 2013-09-04 06:52:34 <gmaxwell> Freebitcoinslist: I was just able to put a 5xxx private key in a multibit key file and import it.
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567 2013-09-04 06:52:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: dumpwallet RPC will create suxh a file, btw
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574 2013-09-04 07:02:46 <Freebitcoinslist> Gm may i pm you please
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580 2013-09-04 07:11:22 <phantomcircuit> Freebitcoinslist, try his full nick to highlight him
581 2013-09-04 07:11:36 <phantomcircuit> but also why do you want to pm him
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635 2013-09-04 08:53:30 <warren> You folks getting complaints from vendor and/or pools about the 4 RPC thread keep alive limit?
636 2013-09-04 08:54:00 <warren> Let's think about a real solution for that for bitcoin-0.9 ...
637 2013-09-04 08:54:45 <gmaxwell> No. The only person whos commented on it is doublec.
638 2013-09-04 08:54:54 <gmaxwell> (only pool at least)
639 2013-09-04 08:55:04 <gmaxwell> Most modern pools don't operate in a way where it matters.
640 2013-09-04 08:55:09 <warren> gmaxwell had a simple idea along the lines of refusing keep alive for the 4th and last connection. That would seem to work, as earlier versions of bitcoin lacked keepalive. But a limit of 4 seems arbitrary... although I do recognize there must be a limit.
641 2013-09-04 08:55:32 <gmaxwell> warren: we waste a bunch of ram (and a ton of VM) for per-thread stacks and heap.
642 2013-09-04 08:55:41 <warren> I know.
643 2013-09-04 08:56:24 <warren> would your earlier idea be good enough?
644 2013-09-04 08:57:16 <gmaxwell> probably. I haven't seen any cases where people really had to keep more than three keepalives up. I don't know that it would be trivial to implement though.
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660 2013-09-04 09:34:19 <warren> gmaxwell: thanks
661 2013-09-04 09:34:27 <michagogo> I don't know if this is a bug, and I don't know if this has been the case in past versions or anything, but the 0.8.4 installer seems kinda glitchy on the first page: http://i.imgur.com/jDtDeoU.png
662 2013-09-04 09:34:53 <michagogo> (this is the 0.8.4 win32 setup extracted from the 0.8.4 win32 gitian zip)
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664 2013-09-04 09:39:25 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, gotta love how completely unrelated changes can break things
665 2013-09-04 09:39:30 <phantomcircuit> <-- confused
666 2013-09-04 09:39:36 <michagogo> ikr
667 2013-09-04 09:39:54 <michagogo> Wait, what the hell
668 2013-09-04 09:39:59 <michagogo> I just reopened the same exe
669 2013-09-04 09:40:01 <michagogo> and it's fine
670 2013-09-04 09:40:16 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, magic
671 2013-09-04 09:40:20 <michagogo> Is that screen generated on the fly
672 2013-09-04 09:40:20 <michagogo> ?
673 2013-09-04 09:40:26 <phantomcircuit> i have no idea
674 2013-09-04 09:41:59 <michagogo> Anyone know what the bitcoin win32 installer consists of?
675 2013-09-04 09:42:40 poggy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
676 2013-09-04 09:43:21 <michagogo> Also: Is the only thing that changes between various people gitian-building and the release going up on sourceforge the binaries getting codesigned with the BTCF certificate?
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730 2013-09-04 12:05:01 <gavinandresen> michagogo: the win32 installer is a NSIS installer. Source is share/setup.nsi. And yes, the only thing that changes between gitian-building and release is signing the -setup.exe file with the BTCF certificate.
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802 2013-09-04 13:54:21 <dbitcoin> 0.8.2.4
803 2013-09-04 13:54:29 <jouke> BINGO
804 2013-09-04 13:54:59 <michagogo> dbitcoin: Hmm?
805 2013-09-04 13:55:06 <michagogo> The new release is 0.8.4
806 2013-09-04 13:55:18 <michagogo> no 2 in there
807 2013-09-04 13:55:38 <Luke-Jr> and at least I haven't maintained any 0.8.2.x
808 2013-09-04 13:56:45 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
809 2013-09-04 13:57:35 <Luke-Jr> can anyone confirm that trying to open "bitcoin:m" as a URI results in the message "Invalid payment address 3QJmnh" indicating possible uninitialised deref?
810 2013-09-04 13:58:37 <michagogo> Er, I get "Cannot obtain a lock on data directory"
811 2013-09-04 13:58:56 <michagogo> (I have 2 bitcoin-qt running, one each main and testnet
812 2013-09-04 13:59:06 <michagogo> )
813 2013-09-04 13:59:18 <jouke> Luke-Jr: I confirm that message
814 2013-09-04 14:00:18 * Luke-Jr hopes this isn't important, considering we just released 0.8.4 <.<
815 2013-09-04 14:01:43 <michagogo> Why am I getting the "cannot obtain lock on data directory"
816 2013-09-04 14:01:58 <michagogo> error message?
817 2013-09-04 14:02:24 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: not 0.8.4?
818 2013-09-04 14:02:28 <michagogo> Yes 0.8.4
819 2013-09-04 14:02:36 <michagogo> (the 0.8.4 installer I got out of gitian)
820 2013-09-04 14:02:58 <michagogo> I'll try rebooting my node
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824 2013-09-04 14:10:40 <jgarzik> michagogo, confirmed only one bitcoin process running?
825 2013-09-04 14:11:03 <michagogo> jgarzik: Shouldn't it be 2 bitcoin processes?
826 2013-09-04 14:11:19 <jgarzik> michagogo, no
827 2013-09-04 14:11:31 <michagogo> mainnet and testnet merge their processes? o_O
828 2013-09-04 14:12:17 <dbitcoin> something wrong with 0.8.4? run with existed wallet: Error reading wallet database: CPrivKey pubkey inconsistency
829 2013-09-04 14:12:48 <kinlo> sounds like a corrupt wallet, do you still have backups?
830 2013-09-04 14:13:40 <jgarzik> michagogo, you must manually run multiple process, to access multiple networks. bitcoin won't do that for you.
831 2013-09-04 14:13:52 <michagogo> Uh, yes, I know
832 2013-09-04 14:14:14 <michagogo> So why are you saying there should be only one bitcoin process when I have both mainnet and testnet running?
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835 2013-09-04 14:15:44 <jgarzik> michagogo, for 99% of users, the answer to you "shouldn't it be 2 bitcoin processes?" is no
836 2013-09-04 14:15:50 <jgarzik> *your question
837 2013-09-04 14:15:58 <jgarzik> michagogo, there are always exceptions :)
838 2013-09-04 14:16:08 <michagogo> jgarzik: But I'd just said I was running both main and test...
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840 2013-09-04 14:16:39 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: When I click on <a href="bitcoin:m">test</a> I get this: http://i.imgur.com/QtaV7lh.png
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843 2013-09-04 14:20:00 <dbitcoin> kinlo: previous several versions runs fine without any problem
844 2013-09-04 14:20:03 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
845 2013-09-04 14:20:21 <jouke> Where can I find information on how to buld with gitian?
846 2013-09-04 14:20:35 <michagogo> jouke: release-process.m
847 2013-09-04 14:20:36 <michagogo> d
848 2013-09-04 14:20:58 <michagogo> (not the whole thing is relevant to you specifically)
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850 2013-09-04 14:21:48 <michagogo> (some of the parts are for the actual packaging for release to the public)
851 2013-09-04 14:22:36 <jouke> Thanks
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866 2013-09-04 15:03:35 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: Should refunds really not be displayed in Bitcoin-Qt's transaction list? O.o
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870 2013-09-04 15:14:33 <jgarzik> ??
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876 2013-09-04 15:19:56 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: dcd0b0775ef63ac9e067d9eb67012332f1a72bd7
877 2013-09-04 15:20:57 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
878 2013-09-04 15:20:58 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, IMO refunds are a bit different from change
879 2013-09-04 15:21:14 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I agree, I'd want to see them on my transaction list
880 2013-09-04 15:21:17 <jgarzik> change is a hidden because it's part of the bitcoin protocol
881 2013-09-04 15:21:22 <jgarzik> refunds are real transactions
882 2013-09-04 15:22:14 cads has joined
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887 2013-09-04 15:29:12 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
888 2013-09-04 15:30:00 phrog has joined
889 2013-09-04 15:30:09 <phrog> hello all.
890 2013-09-04 15:31:09 <gmaxwell> indeed, refunds shouldn't be change addresses. Arguably their a third kind, a parallel chain to the coins being spent. If we didn't ever reuse addresses I'd say that the change addresses should have the same index as the highest value coin being spend but on a parallel bip32 chain in the bip32 case... though it seems wasteful to have a chain so sparsely used.
891 2013-09-04 15:31:18 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812])
892 2013-09-04 15:31:37 <phrog> I was sent .1btc w/o fees from a blockchain.info wallet and it is stuck.. can I do anything to help recive it?
893 2013-09-04 15:31:59 <phrog> tx 2a478d017df2ed94497c4878b054269105b7e4f748eb0ea71a100c2a63fc3a40
894 2013-09-04 15:32:03 <gmaxwell> phrog: define stuck?
895 2013-09-04 15:32:42 <gmaxwell> phrog: just wait, it'll go through.
896 2013-09-04 15:32:52 <wumpus> luke-jr: not sure, I guess it's debatable, in any case a show all option should be there to show everything
897 2013-09-04 15:32:55 <phrog> ok I will then, thanks :)
898 2013-09-04 15:33:17 <wumpus> luke-jr: but we don't hide any transactions do we?
899 2013-09-04 15:33:28 <wumpus> just addresses in the address book
900 2013-09-04 15:33:44 johnsoft has joined
901 2013-09-04 15:34:38 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: oh, I didn't realise that was the address book >_<
902 2013-09-04 15:34:50 <wumpus> hehe, false alarm
903 2013-09-04 15:34:55 <gmaxwell> wumpus: if you get paid to a change address that gets hidden, at least in listtransactions, I think.
904 2013-09-04 15:36:50 <wumpus> gmaxwell: could be, if it's entirely flagged as isChange, but afaik that's not triggered for refunds
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908 2013-09-04 15:38:22 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Makes sense.
909 2013-09-04 15:39:11 <wumpus> it sounds pretty strange to be able to hide entire transactions that way tho, the balance will seem to have come from nowhere
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916 2013-09-04 15:50:24 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: perhaps we should show something when credit > debit? the code will probably be ugly and need a lot of tests :<
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920 2013-09-04 15:57:46 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we hide the payment to change and the resulting return from it, so there is no balance problem. Though I have no clue what happens if we get just an unsolicited bit of coin to a change address.
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923 2013-09-04 16:01:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sounds like we might manage to get Debian to use upstream unmodified after all :p
924 2013-09-04 16:02:51 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2974
925 2013-09-04 16:03:07 ssi has joined
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932 2013-09-04 16:06:06 <BlueMatt> what I like, is the number of patches debian applies to bitcoind that have never made it into upstream pull requests/issues
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936 2013-09-04 16:08:15 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: yeah, point of this interaction with them recently is to get rid of that crap
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941 2013-09-04 16:12:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: have you updated the ppa for 0.8.4 yet?
942 2013-09-04 16:12:25 <wumpus> they don't even try to get it merged upstream?
943 2013-09-04 16:12:40 <gmaxwell> wumpus: don't even tell us about it.
944 2013-09-04 16:12:46 <wumpus> I see
945 2013-09-04 16:13:19 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, this morning
946 2013-09-04 16:13:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Great!
947 2013-09-04 16:14:20 <wumpus> if they break the random number generator like their ssh patches did it may be just as well :-)
948 2013-09-04 16:14:22 bakingbread has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
949 2013-09-04 16:14:42 <gmaxwell> Hopefully we'd catch that.
950 2013-09-04 16:15:09 <BlueMatt> I love how maintainers can apply arbitrary patches without anywhere near the code-review requirements of the upstream projects
951 2013-09-04 16:15:34 Application has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
952 2013-09-04 16:15:41 <Luke-Jr> someday there will be a distro with strict rules against that <.<
953 2013-09-04 16:15:51 Application has joined
954 2013-09-04 16:15:56 <gmaxwell> It's mildly terrifying that they do this... Fedora doesn't do this, if a maintainer patches something beyond a obviously trivial build system setup thing they get ask if they've taken the patches upstream.
955 2013-09-04 16:16:16 <TD> many years ago, i worked on a hybrid installer/packaging framework for linux. it achieved some moderate popularity for a while and there were even people who wanted to make a distro that didn't have big package repos, but told upstreams to use that framework
956 2013-09-04 16:16:34 <TD> and it was partly prompted by such problems
957 2013-09-04 16:16:40 <TD> needless to say, distributors (including redhat/fedora) HATED it
958 2013-09-04 16:16:43 <gmaxwell> Fedora will sometimes patch things, but its officially discouraged, and totally patches which upstream is totally unaware of basically shouldn't happen.
959 2013-09-04 16:16:54 <TD> if there was a big push towards using upstream binaries, they lose power. it's ultimately a power play.
960 2013-09-04 16:17:00 <BlueMatt> some upstreams (like us!) provide debian package scripts for packagers....that are simply ignored
961 2013-09-04 16:17:11 <gmaxwell> This was partally a backlash to the old way of doing that which was more like that debian still seems to do.
962 2013-09-04 16:17:16 <TD> eventually i got sick of the power politics and bought a mac
963 2013-09-04 16:17:24 bmcgee has joined
964 2013-09-04 16:18:14 <TD> i'm just waiting for someone to make a decent desktop android, ideally one that can run a subset of sandboxed linux/desktop java apps .... i'd so be there
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966 2013-09-04 16:18:39 <gmaxwell> TD: there is value in providing a whole system that works, and sometimes that does require some integration changes.
967 2013-09-04 16:18:41 <BlueMatt> TD: or a version of chromeos that can do the same
968 2013-09-04 16:19:21 <Luke-Jr> and guarantee against trojans/viruses
969 2013-09-04 16:19:25 <TD> you can provide a whole system whilst still providing stable APIs and upstream binary distribution/packaging. from a users perspective, macos/win32/android works a whole lot better than your average linux distro
970 2013-09-04 16:19:26 <gmaxwell> TD: and there are plenty of dormant / dead upstreams.
971 2013-09-04 16:19:41 <TD> sure. so someone can fork the upstream project and become the new upstream.
972 2013-09-04 16:19:51 <Luke-Jr> TD: most developers don't want to do packaging for 2933 distros
973 2013-09-04 16:20:00 <TD> BlueMatt: well, unfortunately chromeos is rather defined by what it doesn't do :(
974 2013-09-04 16:20:39 <TD> Luke-Jr: in reality they don't need to. i had a bunch of magic toolchain wrappers for "autopackage" as it was called. building a single binary that worked on basically all distros was by no means impossible, despite the absolute lack of fucks given by distributors
975 2013-09-04 16:21:04 <BlueMatt> TD: well, my point was more that chromeos is designed to be a desktop distro that runs (one) app in a sandbox that is very tightly locked down, though I suppose android is semi-similar in intent there
976 2013-09-04 16:21:04 <gmaxwell> TD: windows dll hell is ... pretty hell. VS I think the expirence in fedora is pretty excellent, but then again, I don't have anything that I run in fedora which isn't packaged, except for the stuff where I'm developing it.
977 2013-09-04 16:21:09 sserrano44 has joined
978 2013-09-04 16:21:19 <TD> but effective operating systems don't shatter into a million tiny forks, which are different only for the sake of it.
979 2013-09-04 16:21:32 <Luke-Jr> TD: it's impossible without static linking, which is STUPID
980 2013-09-04 16:21:40 <TD> dll hell hasn't been an issue on windows for decades
981 2013-09-04 16:21:43 bakingbread has joined
982 2013-09-04 16:21:44 <TD> ok
983 2013-09-04 16:21:46 <TD> "over a decade"
984 2013-09-04 16:22:12 <gmaxwell> TD: "building a single binary" yes, because this is somewhat at odds with systems built around open source. Making a mandated stable binary interface makes advancing some things much harder, and the open source world is not stuck in only haiving to provide binary compatibility when we also have the choice of source compatibility.
985 2013-09-04 16:22:21 * Luke-Jr won't install something without a proper package for the OS
986 2013-09-04 16:22:59 <TD> binary vs source compatibility was always rather a red herring. the changes you can make that break binary but not source compatibility are invariably minor and not interesting to end users. but the proof is in the pudding. android is binary compatible back to v1.0 and has gone through massive upgrades in that time, far beyond anything the linux world has done
987 2013-09-04 16:24:07 <Luke-Jr> TD: perhaps you can help me with some advice on a bug I can't fix due to ABI concerns? :P
988 2013-09-04 16:24:10 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287296.new;boardseen#new
989 2013-09-04 16:24:12 <TD> ultimately, linux distros are notorious for dependency hell, the "solution" most distributions use being simply "don't let users upgrade software beyond minor backports we provide" which is no solution at all
990 2013-09-04 16:25:05 <TD> Luke-Jr: introduce a new API and fix it that way. somehow every other OS manages this.
991 2013-09-04 16:25:13 <gmaxwell> TD: weird, you've had a very different expirence than I have. (I won't argue that yours isn't more common than mine, I have no idea. I have no or pratically no issues with respect to any of this stuff)
992 2013-09-04 16:25:30 <Luke-Jr> TD: that won't fix things using the old function
993 2013-09-04 16:25:50 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: thanks
994 2013-09-04 16:25:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think the idea is that you're supposted to leave old things broken.
995 2013-09-04 16:25:55 <TD> Luke-Jr: if it requires an API change then you can't fix them anyway. the apps will have to upgrade.
996 2013-09-04 16:26:03 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: I confirm that I'm getting the same MD5 that the poster reports.
997 2013-09-04 16:26:27 <TD> Luke-Jr: distros aren't gonna upgrade your component for years anyway, most likely. so no big deal :p
998 2013-09-04 16:26:32 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I think it's been reported elsewhere a few days ago. Animazing updated the binary, iirc
999 2013-09-04 16:26:36 <ThomasV> I will check
1000 2013-09-04 16:26:42 <Luke-Jr> TD: I have an enum used as a bitfield; but the functions using it have the combination specified as the enum type instead of an int type. On x86, it makes no difference, but theoretically, it may break things on other platforms; changing it to an int type also theoretically breaks ABI
1001 2013-09-04 16:26:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but the nsa broke md5 and is feeding you a different binary!
1002 2013-09-04 16:26:49 <BlueMatt> (well, broke it more)
1003 2013-09-04 16:26:55 <Luke-Jr> TD: the API is fine with the change from enum to int type, but not the ABI
1004 2013-09-04 16:27:40 <Luke-Jr> or rather, not the theoretical ABI on potentially existing platforms <.<
1005 2013-09-04 16:28:14 <TD> hmm. given there are basically only 3 or 4 ISAs that matter in modern computing, that shouldn't be very hard to check.
1006 2013-09-04 16:28:15 stingsay` is now known as StingRay`
1007 2013-09-04 16:28:32 <TD> but that kind of extreme edge case isn't a very compelling reason to build an entire OS around lack of binary compatibility
1008 2013-09-04 16:28:33 <Luke-Jr> TD: ignoring platforms because they "don't matter" is bad IMO
1009 2013-09-04 16:28:38 <TD> er, why?
1010 2013-09-04 16:28:50 <TD> if I invent my own ISA will you immediately spend your weekends adding support for it?
1011 2013-09-04 16:28:50 <Luke-Jr> because it reenforces their "not matter"ing
1012 2013-09-04 16:29:20 <Luke-Jr> TD: that's not the same thing; standards-compatible code shouldn't need special support for new stuff
1013 2013-09-04 16:29:33 <Luke-Jr> this is a problem for me because I've done something outside of standard well-definedness
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1015 2013-09-04 16:30:28 <TD> in reality, end users aren't going to be downloading binaries outside of x86, amd64 and ARM, none of which should have any issues with that change. so this seems like an angels-pinhead kind of thing
1016 2013-09-04 16:30:47 <TD> yes it might break things on some platform where people would compile everything from source anyway, because there are no upstream binaries
1017 2013-09-04 16:31:35 <Luke-Jr> it's not especially bothering me - I've just left it unchanged for now and am comfortable doing so until some other ABI break
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1045 2013-09-04 17:19:50 <jgarzik> hrm
1046 2013-09-04 17:20:00 <jgarzik> surely there is a function that will load all inputs of a transaction
1047 2013-09-04 17:20:03 <jgarzik> in bitcoind
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1057 2013-09-04 17:35:56 <jgarzik> RPC: createrawtransactions gains 'fee' pseudo-address for fee safety - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2975
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1059 2013-09-04 17:36:30 * gmaxwell testing
1060 2013-09-04 17:36:57 <runeks> So, guys, what equation would best be able approximate the rise in difficulty?
1061 2013-09-04 17:37:39 <gmaxwell> runeks: difficulty = log(runeks_annoyance)
1062 2013-09-04 17:37:46 <runeks> gmaxwell: hey you!
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1064 2013-09-04 17:38:12 <gmaxwell> runeks: you can't model it that way. The proper "model" for difficulty absent the outside world is difficulty = whatever_difficulty_it_already_is. :P
1065 2013-09-04 17:38:12 <runeks> I'm trying to see if I can predict the next difficulty using curve fitting.
1066 2013-09-04 17:38:22 <gmaxwell> runeks: Try chicken bones.
1067 2013-09-04 17:38:44 <gmaxwell> runeks: think for a moment what you're really predicting: you're predicting bitfury and BFL device shippments. :P
1068 2013-09-04 17:39:13 <runeks> gmaxwell: Yeah I know the best equation now wouldn't always be the best. But right now it looks exponential.
1069 2013-09-04 17:39:27 <runeks> But that will stop once enough ASICs are shipped.
1070 2013-09-04 17:40:24 <gmaxwell> runeks: from a process perspective "exponential" doesn't make a lot of sense. Hashrate isn't bunnies. Two hashes do not begat four hashes. :P
1071 2013-09-04 17:40:37 <runeks> gmaxwell: I will try exponential, and if my guess is right you owe me a millibitcoin! :)
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1075 2013-09-04 17:41:51 <gmaxwell> runeks: What does right even mean? you're obviously not going to get it exactly right. :)
1076 2013-09-04 17:43:07 <runeks> gmaxwell: +/- 1%?
1077 2013-09-04 17:43:13 <_dr> I heard the BFL monarch will reproduce exponentially
1078 2013-09-04 17:43:23 <_dr> every two weeks
1079 2013-09-04 17:43:47 <runeks> _dr: I think it will be stillborn.
1080 2013-09-04 17:44:23 <_dr> what on earth makes you think that? obviously bfl has delivered before!!
1081 2013-09-04 17:44:31 bmcgee has joined
1082 2013-09-04 17:44:43 <runeks> _dr: I know, crazy thought.
1083 2013-09-04 17:45:14 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: I have successfully bred hashes
1084 2013-09-04 17:45:19 <runeks> Hmm. I just realized I need to consider difficulty adjustments when looking at measured block times. It may be a bigger task than first thought.
1085 2013-09-04 17:45:44 <_dr> nothing a line of matlab won't solve
1086 2013-09-04 17:46:03 <runeks> _dr: Give me one line of matlab that solves that :)
1087 2013-09-04 17:46:23 <_dr> I'm more of a ideas guy, no details ;)
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1089 2013-09-04 17:46:49 <gmaxwell> runeks: I'd make a bet with you that a short term linear model fits better than an exponential one... but in fact they're close enough we couldn't call it over measurement noise.
1090 2013-09-04 17:46:58 <runeks> _dr: You have the revelations, I make them into code.
1091 2013-09-04 17:47:51 <runeks> I'm doing an average of 2016 blocks. That should cancel out *some* measurement noise at least.
1092 2013-09-04 17:47:59 <_dr> I agree with gmaxwell. ASIC manufacturer output is hardly exponential. More like linear with increasing constant
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1095 2013-09-04 17:48:58 <_dr> but then again you can approximate an exponential curve with linear functions, given the small time intervals between the difficulty
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1100 2013-09-04 17:52:34 <runeks> I'm going to try again with measured block times adjustment for difficulty adjustments, and see which r-value is best and go with that.
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1104 2013-09-04 17:56:04 <Krellan> Question about "listtransactions" API
1105 2013-09-04 17:56:13 <Krellan> Is there a way to query by address and not by "account"?
1106 2013-09-04 17:56:23 <Krellan> Also, is there a way to include coinbase (immature) in the output?
1107 2013-09-04 17:58:04 <Krellan> I noticed it doesn't include immature coins, unfortunately. Wanted to use it to monitor mining profit.
1108 2013-09-04 17:59:00 <Krellan> Also, I'm using listtransactions <accountname> 99999999 0, to get as complete list as possible. Is there a cleaner way to say "all" than 99999999?
1109 2013-09-04 17:59:39 <gmaxwell> Krellan: listtransactions returns immature coins.
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1111 2013-09-04 18:00:28 <gmaxwell> bitcoind listtransactions "*" 999999999 | grep immature | wc -l
1112 2013-09-04 18:00:28 <gmaxwell> 3
1113 2013-09-04 18:01:07 <gmaxwell> Krellan: no wrt address/account, but you can just assign whatever addresses to whatever accounts you want.
1114 2013-09-04 18:02:13 <Krellan> Thanks, my bad. As for immature, I meant "listunspent". It doesn't include coinbase, I believe.
1115 2013-09-04 18:02:49 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1116 2013-09-04 18:02:55 <Krellan> Cool, so I can give a star as a wildcard.
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1121 2013-09-04 18:08:29 <gmaxwell> Krellan: you can tell listunspent to show unconfirmed and I think it will show immature? not sure.
1122 2013-09-04 18:08:32 * gmaxwell checks
1123 2013-09-04 18:09:10 <Krellan> Thanks. I was checking too. Sadly I've been so inept mining recently that I have no immature coins at all!
1124 2013-09-04 18:09:18 <Krellan> Will have to check again next time a block hits.
1125 2013-09-04 18:09:45 <gmaxwell> Krellan: seems it doesn't.
1126 2013-09-04 18:10:54 <Krellan> That's what I remember as well. Think it should be added?
1127 2013-09-04 18:11:48 <Krellan> Reason is, I have a script "bitcron". Naturally, it runs as a cron job every minute, and queries Bitcoin. I use it to tell me when I've found a share or pool has found a block.
1128 2013-09-04 18:12:28 <Krellan> First draft of script used "listunspent". It was missing immature. Then, I changed it to use "listtransactions" and filter/total the balance up myself.
1129 2013-09-04 18:14:51 <Krellan> Interesting how listtransactions takes an address but listunspent takes an account.
1130 2013-09-04 18:15:05 <gmaxwell> Krellan: immature is odd since it has to be special cased and no one handles it well
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1133 2013-09-04 18:16:01 <Krellan> That's kind of what I thought.
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1153 2013-09-04 18:38:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, it is mildly tempted to /require/ the "fee" pseudo-address for all createrawtransaction
1154 2013-09-04 18:38:47 <jgarzik> *tempting
1155 2013-09-04 18:39:17 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: but fee can't work when you don't know the inputs. And it's important that createraw work on unknown inputs.
1156 2013-09-04 18:39:31 <jgarzik> mmm, true
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1158 2013-09-04 18:39:38 <gmaxwell> (signing an unknown to you input is needed for some contract forms, also offline signing)
1159 2013-09-04 18:40:27 <jgarzik> scrypt competitor Catena: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/525
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1161 2013-09-04 18:47:56 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I can't seem to get anything but inputs+fee != outputs with your fee psedo patch btw.. I'm tied up elsewhere and have only spend about 60 seconds on it though. :P
1162 2013-09-04 18:48:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, will look into it
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1184 2013-09-04 19:09:01 <_dr> anyone know which heuristic blockchain.info is using for estimated transaction volume/block?
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1228 2013-09-04 20:14:28 <davec_> hey guys - curious if the behavior in "getheaders" where it pushes an empty headers message if the block locator doesn't find anything, but it doesn't if the block locator is empty and the hash stop doesn't match anything is expected? (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L3673-L3707)
1229 2013-09-04 20:14:34 <davec_> seems like both cases should send an empty "getheaders" so the caller knows the request was processed but just didn't find anything
1230 2013-09-04 20:14:43 <davec_> errr "headers" message
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1250 2013-09-04 20:47:08 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, petertodd, amiller: has anyone ever done a design for "SPV p2pool" -- p2pool sans full block chain, that is.
1251 2013-09-04 20:47:55 <jgarzik> it would be nice to give miners simple instructions for running software that was decentralized mining, yet did not require full bitcoind
1252 2013-09-04 20:48:03 <jgarzik> luke-jr: ^
1253 2013-09-04 20:48:09 <gmaxwell> Yes, it's called pooled mining.
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1255 2013-09-04 20:48:20 <jgarzik> that's not decentralized enough :)
1256 2013-09-04 20:48:40 <gmaxwell> It can't be worse than doing no validation at all. :P
1257 2013-09-04 20:49:09 <jgarzik> surely you could manage a share chain, and come up with an SPV design that could produce useful-to-the-network blocks
1258 2013-09-04 20:49:42 MobiusL has joined
1259 2013-09-04 20:49:58 <gmaxwell> If we had a comitted UTXO set something would be possible, but it is not currently possible to produce compact (low storage) proofs of a block's validity.
1260 2013-09-04 20:50:41 <jgarzik> yeah, like mempool sampling + UTXO proof
1261 2013-09-04 20:50:49 <gmaxwell> If you just want to save disk space you can delete the old blocks already. Excepting for the crashes when someone tries to fetch historical blocks from you that already works. But without a committed UTXO set you need to build your own chainstate and store it.
1262 2013-09-04 20:51:37 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, "SPV design" soÂ
picking arbitrary goalÂ
assume <= 50MB local storage
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1264 2013-09-04 20:51:55 <jgarzik> i.e. enough to store headers and some additional data
1265 2013-09-04 20:52:13 <gmaxwell> if there are UTXO proofs local storage can be zero.. though bandwidth would be quite high.
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1267 2013-09-04 20:54:08 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, we don't have any way to directly query UTXO set via P2P, alas
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1269 2013-09-04 20:54:48 * jgarzik ponders "gettxouts, input: vector<hash>, output vector<transaction>"
1270 2013-09-04 20:55:10 <gmaxwell> every txin (e.g. several per transaction) would need roughly log2(utxo_count) = 28 (currently) * 32 bytes + 35 bytes = about 930 kb of proof. hm. not quite as bad as I thought.
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1272 2013-09-04 20:55:52 <gmaxwell> The amount of proof for each txout (to prove the update is correct) is similar.
1273 2013-09-04 20:57:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, why would bandwidth usage be high?
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1277 2013-09-04 20:57:15 <jgarzik> doesn't seem /necessarily/ a given
1278 2013-09-04 20:57:25 <maaku> an efficiently updatable structure is likely to waste more space in the worst case, but the order of magnitude is correct
1279 2013-09-04 20:57:43 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: because if you have no storage (just headers) every transaction you mine must have data to prove to you that the inputs are valid.
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1281 2013-09-04 20:57:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: because you can't just tell from local data.
1282 2013-09-04 20:58:05 <gmaxwell> It's less bandwidth than I was guessing before I ran the numbers though.
1283 2013-09-04 20:58:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, no way to merkle-ize unspent outputs?
1284 2013-09-04 20:58:18 <maaku> gmaxwell: that case is interesting for hardware wallets, which could sync their wallet over a high-bandwidth usb connection
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1286 2013-09-04 20:58:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the numbers I was giving there were assuming a merkleized utxo set. Thats where the log2() comes from.
1287 2013-09-04 20:59:07 <jgarzik> in general, I think "SPV mining" could be a /big/ win for decentralized mining, if such a design is possible and healthy for the network
1288 2013-09-04 20:59:09 <gmaxwell> Without that the "proof" for a spendable output is the whole blockchain. :P
1289 2013-09-04 20:59:35 <jgarzik> because a lot of people will otherwise turn to pools, if mining is not "run this program" easy and quick
1290 2013-09-04 21:00:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm certantly supportive of making it possible, but my cynicism prevents me from thinking it will work. I'm also concerned that promoting it that way may make it mysterously hard to get committed utxo deployed. :(
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1292 2013-09-04 21:01:39 <gmaxwell> being able to make compact block validtity proofs is very important regardless: the exact same things are needed in order to have "SPV" wallets that do randomized validity testing and fraud proofs.
1293 2013-09-04 21:02:05 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, definitely would like to see committed utxo out there. I'm radical enough to think we should just go ahead and stick UTXO hash_serialized or similar into our CreateNewBlock() code right now.
1294 2013-09-04 21:02:28 <jgarzik> the main thing restraining me are the implications of pruning rule agreement
1295 2013-09-04 21:02:35 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hash_seralized isn't sutiable because it's insanely slow and can't be updated. :P
1296 2013-09-04 21:02:51 <gmaxwell> a tree version of it, otoh, would be pretty simple.
1297 2013-09-04 21:03:46 <jgarzik> just insert <tag><tree hash> into coinbase. <tag> can be changed any time there is a binary compatibility or rules change, perhaps.
1298 2013-09-04 21:03:57 <gmaxwell> I'd privately suggested to petertodd that he go jump maaku's work with a four line patch that makes hash_serialized tree structured and also can emit small membership proofs. :P
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1300 2013-09-04 21:04:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: making it actually useful takes more than thatâ you need to make the correctness of such tags a block validity rule.
1301 2013-09-04 21:04:17 <jgarzik> pushdata("utxo1") pushdata(hash)
1302 2013-09-04 21:04:20 <gmaxwell> Simply adding the data isn't enough.
1303 2013-09-04 21:04:37 <gmaxwell> (certantly it can start with just adding it)
1304 2013-09-04 21:04:42 <jgarzik> agreed -- but it's an important and necessary first step, and it gives people things to work on
1305 2013-09-04 21:05:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, and it will help accomplish your goal of making it hard to get it deployed
1306 2013-09-04 21:05:26 <jgarzik> ER
1307 2013-09-04 21:05:35 <jgarzik> NOT making it hard
1308 2013-09-04 21:05:39 <gmaxwell> without tree-structuring the hash though, it's not very useful. Since you can't extract a compact proof out of it.
1309 2013-09-04 21:05:54 <amiller> where's maaku's work
1310 2013-09-04 21:05:58 <maaku> hash_serialized does not enable proof construction...
1311 2013-09-04 21:06:01 <amiller> does he have notes on github or something
1312 2013-09-04 21:06:03 <jgarzik> nod -- tree structure it
1313 2013-09-04 21:06:16 <amiller> hi maaku, i'd really like to follow along with whatever you're doing!
1314 2013-09-04 21:06:21 <maaku> amiller: here, mostly : https://github.com/monetizeio/python-bitcoin/blob/master/bitcoin/patricia.py
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1316 2013-09-04 21:07:53 <gmaxwell> thats a whole lot of code for something normative. :(
1317 2013-09-04 21:07:56 <maaku> jgarzik: what i meant was that a standard merkle list is not efficiently updatable
1318 2013-09-04 21:08:23 <jgarzik> en gross, what we need is a "merkle stream"
1319 2013-09-04 21:08:38 <jgarzik> *grosse
1320 2013-09-04 21:09:23 <maaku> care to expand on that?
1321 2013-09-04 21:09:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we actually do need a tree structure here, since we need to do random deletes and inserts. (if you want something that does efficient appends petertodd came up with the thing he calls a merkle mountain range, but thats not what we need here)
1322 2013-09-04 21:10:18 <gmaxwell> maaku: how big are your update proofs?
1323 2013-09-04 21:10:51 <maaku> gmaxwell: kilobytes, for the tests that i've done
1324 2013-09-04 21:12:16 <gmaxwell> Sounds a bit large to me. I mean, if you do a prefix trie which is strictly key structured with no level compression, you end up with constant size lookup and update proofs of 8192 bytes.
1325 2013-09-04 21:12:21 <maaku> it's level compressed and node compressed - so there's only as many levels as you need, and each level has only as many hashes as there are branches (up to 256)
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1328 2013-09-04 21:12:51 <gmaxwell> oh if you have more than two children of a node that will murder proof efficiency!
1329 2013-09-04 21:13:00 <maaku> yes, it will
1330 2013-09-04 21:13:06 <gmaxwell> since you end up having to transmit all the children if you touch a node at all.
1331 2013-09-04 21:13:24 <maaku> one of the next tests I'm doing to run is trying branching factors of 16 & 4
1332 2013-09-04 21:13:30 <maaku> but those have extra cpu burden
1333 2013-09-04 21:13:46 <gmaxwell> Proofs will such unless your branching factor is 2.
1334 2013-09-04 21:13:49 <gmaxwell> er suck. :)
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1336 2013-09-04 21:14:27 <jgarzik> sounds pretty far out, even if I code it ;p
1337 2013-09-04 21:14:33 <gmaxwell> You can always take a scheme with a high branching factor and replace its interior nodes with a binary tree, with just special values on non-existing children.
1338 2013-09-04 21:14:39 * jgarzik goes back to pondering bounties for p2pool instructions in Chinese
1339 2013-09-04 21:14:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I will match your p2pool bounties. :P
1340 2013-09-04 21:15:54 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: as far as decenteralizing mining, I think in the long term things like what you're talking about make sense... but in the short term, I'd like to at least get all the people who are willing to run a bitcoind node able to use one for mining without taking the variance bath.
1341 2013-09-04 21:16:10 <gmaxwell> Though, its less of an issue now that p2pool has grown some more.
1342 2013-09-04 21:16:36 <jgarzik> Yah -- any p2pool instructions would necessarily require bitcoind instructions, including an honest "resource requirements" preface
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1344 2013-09-04 21:16:40 <gmaxwell> p2pool is about 1.2% of the network hashrate now.
1345 2013-09-04 21:17:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, there are crazy people running p2pool+bitcoind on some under powerered hardware. I think being frank about the requirements is important though, because if you run it on your raspberry pi you will .. uh. not have a good expirence.
1346 2013-09-04 21:17:31 <maaku> gmaxwell: yeah, a merkle-list within the interior node is current strategy for the proofs
1347 2013-09-04 21:20:26 <gmaxwell> I'm not quite sure why thing can't be as simple as coding node = H(is left a leaf |H(left) | is right a leaf | H(right)) and just order by key (which is a hash)?
1348 2013-09-04 21:21:26 <gmaxwell> But I confess, I've not thought much about update proofs.
1349 2013-09-04 21:21:53 <maaku> that is basically it
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1351 2013-09-04 21:23:15 <gmaxwell> amiller is the worlds foremost expert on authenticated datastructures, as far as I can tell. :)
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1354 2013-09-04 21:26:38 <cfields> jgarzik: need instructions written up? or just translated?
1355 2013-09-04 21:27:38 <jgarzik> cfields, well, the thesis is "lotsa bitcoin use in China", and I want to encourage decentralization in mining as much as possible
1356 2013-09-04 21:28:00 <gmaxwell> The p2pool wiki page needs updating. Once updated it could be translated.
1357 2013-09-04 21:28:12 <jgarzik> cfields, many seem to just use popular defaults (btc guild, ozcoin and one CN pool)
1358 2013-09-04 21:28:44 <gmaxwell> it could also use some moron wizard pages "HOW TO USE P2P WITH AVALON" "HOW TO USE P2P WITH BFL" "HOW TO USE P2P WITH BITFURY"
1359 2013-09-04 21:28:47 <jgarzik> cfields, I sponsored a 1 BTC bounty for eligius instructions and made classic bounty mistakes (not specific enough). now thinking about a p2pool-instructions-in-Chinese doc of some sort
1360 2013-09-04 21:29:03 <jgarzik> *eligius docs in Chinese
1361 2013-09-04 21:29:15 <cfields> jgarzik: i only ask because my gf is a Chinese CPA who's done a bunch of translation work. But mention Bitcoin and her eyes glaze over
1362 2013-09-04 21:29:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, exactly
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1364 2013-09-04 21:29:37 <cfields> so if there's a 1:1 task, I'd be happy to ask. but original content isn't going to happen :)
1365 2013-09-04 21:29:47 <jgarzik> that's the problem
1366 2013-09-04 21:29:53 <jgarzik> docs are scattered here and there.
1367 2013-09-04 21:30:04 <jgarzik> need a good English doc, then point someone at that and say "translate X"
1368 2013-09-04 21:30:26 <jgarzik> another mistake I made with the eligius bounty was not having an English doc ready to go
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1372 2013-09-04 21:32:29 <gmaxwell> Probably the best approach would be to drum up people to fix the detailed docs first, then make simplified versions.. then transalate the simplified versions.
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1374 2013-09-04 21:38:41 <gmaxwell> maaku: one thing I think is important is that the update proofs be non-serial.
1375 2013-09-04 21:40:18 <gmaxwell> e.g. if I recieve two update proofs X and Y for root state A I should be able to combine them without knowing any additional information.
1376 2013-09-04 21:40:56 <gmaxwell> Something like a red-black tree would fail this. Because the composition of two updates may need to touch additional nodes for rebalancing that neither update alone touched.
1377 2013-09-04 21:41:29 <maaku> gmaxwell: yes, that's the justification for the prefix tree
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1379 2013-09-04 21:41:46 <maaku> any node with the same state has the same tree structure
1380 2013-09-04 21:41:53 <maaku> regardless of how it arrived there
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1382 2013-09-04 21:42:58 <maaku> although i'm curious what you mean specifically by 'update proof'
1383 2013-09-04 21:43:25 <gmaxwell> maaku: Say you are storageless but you know the last valid UTXO proof is DEADBEEF.
1384 2013-09-04 21:43:44 <gmaxwell> It give you a block with its UTXO proofs to prove the block is valid. You're happy the block is valid.
1385 2013-09-04 21:44:01 <gmaxwell> but you don't know what the new UTXO root is. So I tell you it is DEADDEAD
1386 2013-09-04 21:44:30 <gmaxwell> But how do you know thats valid? I can construct an update proof that shows the changes to the utxo tree from all the removals and insertions from that block.
1387 2013-09-04 21:45:02 <gmaxwell> But if _I_ am a storageless miner then I need to have composed those proofs from ones I recieved.
1388 2013-09-04 21:45:21 AndyOfiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1389 2013-09-04 21:45:43 <maaku> ok i understand
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1395 2013-09-04 21:58:53 <amiller> i don't see how the update proofs could be merged :/
1396 2013-09-04 21:58:56 <Krellan> gmaxwell: I found a bug in my little addrlocal patch (unneeded c_str()) and fixed it.
1397 2013-09-04 21:59:11 <amiller> i know why the redblack tree fails at that but it doesn't seem like a (merkleized) patricia trie solves it eihter
1398 2013-09-04 22:01:18 <maaku> a prefix tree doesn't have the balancing problem, so what's the issue you see with it?
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1402 2013-09-04 22:02:01 <amiller> maaku, suppose you have two updates committed concurrently, like A -> AB, and A -> AC
1403 2013-09-04 22:02:27 <amiller> then you'd like to take the two proofs for each of those (the merkle branches) and combine them into a proof for A -> ABC via either A -> AB -> ABC or A -> AC -> ABC
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1407 2013-09-04 22:07:02 <maaku> .. which is entirely doable
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1409 2013-09-04 22:09:46 <amiller> how so?
1410 2013-09-04 22:09:48 <amiller> i'm missing it
1411 2013-09-04 22:09:51 <amiller> maybe it is
1412 2013-09-04 22:10:21 <amiller> would definitely be cool if so.
1413 2013-09-04 22:10:46 <gmaxwell> It's only obvious to me that this property is non-obvious.
1414 2013-09-04 22:12:10 <gmaxwell> But its an important one if we want to have completely storageless (as opposed to storing utxo only) full validators.
1415 2013-09-04 22:12:47 <jgarzik> I suppose storing utxo + headers is another level
1416 2013-09-04 22:12:55 <jgarzik> plus, say, 100 blocks
1417 2013-09-04 22:13:34 <maaku> amiller: for a given set of keys, there is exactly one prefix tree structure
1418 2013-09-04 22:13:46 <maaku> going from AB -> ABC or AC -> ABC results in the same tree
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1420 2013-09-04 22:15:52 <amiller> maaku, yes, that part is clear, but that isn't enough to tell you that a verifier who doesn't have any of the full trees can confirm the root digest of ABC given only the two proofs A->AB and A->AC
1421 2013-09-04 22:16:25 <gmaxwell> maaku: sure, but is the nodes visited by an A->ABC proof equal to or a strict subset of the nodes visited in the A->AB A->AC proofs?
1422 2013-09-04 22:16:53 <gmaxwell> if you have to load a different side branch as part of an ABC proof then this criteria fails and you need the help of a party that has the whole UTXO set.
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1424 2013-09-04 22:17:19 <maaku> gmaxwell: the information of ABC is fully contained within {AB, AC}
1425 2013-09-04 22:18:57 <maaku> although once again, i'm not sure what the utility of an "update proof" is
1426 2013-09-04 22:19:15 <maaku> the key feature to support is moving hash1 to hash2 without having the full utxo set
1427 2013-09-04 22:19:20 <maaku> and you don't need intermediate proofs for that
1428 2013-09-04 22:19:41 <maaku> or rather, you don't need proofs of intermediate tree states
1429 2013-09-04 22:21:48 <amiller> i think it works actually, yeah.
1430 2013-09-04 22:21:51 <maaku> do a pre-traversal of hash2, stopping when you reach a node in hash1, or leaf nodes
1431 2013-09-04 22:22:10 <maaku> for leaf nodes, request proof-of-inclusion
1432 2013-09-04 22:22:17 <maaku> likewise for hash1, request proof-of-spend
1433 2013-09-04 22:22:49 <maaku> the traversal itself can be constant size state
1434 2013-09-04 22:22:50 <gmaxwell> maaku: you need to have that if you don't have a "server" you can just interact with.
1435 2013-09-04 22:22:50 <amiller> at least for the simplest prefix trie thiis works
1436 2013-09-04 22:23:09 <gmaxwell> amiller: yea, I worked it out on paper, and indeed, my examples never visited any extra nodes.
1437 2013-09-04 22:23:11 <amiller> i think patricia stuff may make it not work
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1439 2013-09-04 22:23:39 <maaku> amiller: for more complex tries, you'd need the intervening information for the proof, so it's there anyway
1440 2013-09-04 22:24:26 <gmaxwell> maaku: it's so trivial to contruct examples where it isn't true, so I'm not as comfortable as you saying it is.
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1443 2013-09-04 22:25:47 <amiller> it's a profoundly cool property though... being able to merge concurrently-constructed proofs...
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1445 2013-09-04 22:26:13 <amiller> that would totally motivate choosing a simple enough trie scheme that has it
1446 2013-09-04 22:27:22 <gmaxwell> maaku: for example, say we want to have a foocoin network where _all_ validators are stateless. Instead .. when someone wants to spend a coin do the work of consulting archives and producing the relvant proofs, both for the deletions and for the inserts.. and broacast them.. miners merge the proofs into block proofs. Doing this basically removes the externalized cost of state storage entirely.
1447 2013-09-04 22:27:45 <gmaxwell> If not for the fact that we're pretty bandwidth constrained and that this has a big bandwidth tradeoff, I'd say it was a great idea.
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1450 2013-09-04 22:31:38 <maaku> gmaxwell: yes, that should be doable as-is
1451 2013-09-04 22:31:51 <maaku> provided the proofs are constructed from a common parent tree
1452 2013-09-04 22:32:04 <maaku> they could also be collapsed into a single delta-proof
1453 2013-09-04 22:32:46 <maaku> which is basically just the new tree with any shared nodes from the previous tree pruned off
1454 2013-09-04 22:32:51 <gmaxwell> Right, even if they're not from a common parent tree though, you should be able to apply forward updates to the older one to get it to a common parent, and I think if the update property works than that works too.
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1456 2013-09-04 22:33:17 <amiller> i think this works for patricia compression too
1457 2013-09-04 22:33:24 <gmaxwell> (assuming you have the updates, and I think thats actually an okay assumption here)
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1460 2013-09-04 22:34:19 * amiller should have thought about it this way last year when we first started debating trees, tries, and order dependence
1461 2013-09-04 22:34:27 <amiller> so yeah that's really cool
1462 2013-09-04 22:34:38 <gmaxwell> it means you could consult a (distributed)archive, get a proof for your transaction .. give it to miners.. and as the chain moves along while you're in the memory pool the miners can keep updating your proof and composing them.
1463 2013-09-04 22:34:59 <gmaxwell> now, the interesting question isâ how big are these proofs and is the bandwidth tradeoff worth it. :P
1464 2013-09-04 22:35:17 <maaku> performance would be a bitch though
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1466 2013-09-04 22:35:29 <gmaxwell> maaku: I dunno about that!
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1468 2013-09-04 22:35:54 <gmaxwell> It's quasi-linear complexity.
1469 2013-09-04 22:36:06 <gmaxwell> there is a log2(utxo size) but effectively thats a constant.
1470 2013-09-04 22:36:55 <amiller> okay i don't think this works for deleting
1471 2013-09-04 22:36:59 <amiller> not with patricia encoding
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1473 2013-09-04 22:38:45 <amiller> maybe you can make the proofs slightly larger in a way that preserves this
1474 2013-09-04 22:38:58 <gmaxwell> amiller: does patricia encoding even matter when our keys are cryptographic hashes? Past the first few levels you wouldn't expect any compaction from it.
1475 2013-09-04 22:39:21 <gmaxwell> "here is the extra data you'll need if you do prune back up to here"
1476 2013-09-04 22:39:27 <amiller> yeah patricia encoding wouldn't help at all for random keys, but if you wanted to do like <txid>:<idx> for a utxo set then you'd benefit from patricia encoding
1477 2013-09-04 22:40:09 <gmaxwell> amiller: okay, thats true, but in that case you could just do patricia encoding at the end, and in that case you always send enough proof to cope with it.
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1479 2013-09-04 22:40:20 <gmaxwell> But I don't know if thats any more efficient than just not doing the encoding.
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1481 2013-09-04 22:40:55 <maaku> gmaxwell: it's useful for the scriptPubKey index, which can have arbitrary-length keys
1482 2013-09-04 22:41:26 <gmaxwell> maaku: yea, I don't care about your scriptPubKey index. It's not necessary for block validation.
1483 2013-09-04 22:41:29 <gmaxwell> :P
1484 2013-09-04 22:42:07 <amiller> bbl, good luck :] very glad you're working on this btw maaku
1485 2013-09-04 22:42:33 <gmaxwell> Jeff asked for storageless miners, so thats what I'm thinking about at the moment.
1486 2013-09-04 22:43:33 <maaku> amiller: how did you construct your example where it doesn't work?
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1488 2013-09-04 22:45:29 <amiller> {aaaa, abaa, acaa}, remove abaa, remove acaa
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1490 2013-09-04 22:46:33 <amiller> maaku, basically that would be stored as (a, ((b, aa), (c, aa), (aaa))
1491 2013-09-04 22:46:47 <amiller> when you remove abaa you leave the aaa in tact without looking at it
1492 2013-09-04 22:47:02 <amiller> similar with removing acaa
1493 2013-09-04 22:47:22 <amiller> but when you remove both, you need to traverse the (aaa) node and merge it with the root because you now have an opportunity for compression now
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1495 2013-09-04 22:49:57 <maaku> so if you merge those deletions you end up with the single-node {aaaa}, agreed
1496 2013-09-04 22:50:01 <maaku> where's the problem though?
1497 2013-09-04 22:50:25 <amiller> the proof for removing abaa only consists of the preimages for the nodes traversed
1498 2013-09-04 22:50:37 <amiller> that includes the root node, and the nodes along the path to abaa
1499 2013-09-04 22:50:50 <amiller> notably the preimage for the node (aaa) is not included in either proof
1500 2013-09-04 22:51:09 <amiller> i don't think you are thinking of this as a merkle trie
1501 2013-09-04 22:52:17 <maaku> no, i think i'm still not understanding what you're trying to do :\
1502 2013-09-04 22:52:36 <maaku> in my head you're combining updates to the original 3-entry tree
1503 2013-09-04 22:53:15 <maaku> you want to combine the update proofs *without* access to the old tree?
1504 2013-09-04 22:53:20 <gmaxwell> Yes!
1505 2013-09-04 22:53:42 <gmaxwell> Again: Jeff asked for storageless miners!
1506 2013-09-04 22:54:10 <gmaxwell> amiller: I have no idea what this property should be called. Proof-composability?
1507 2013-09-04 22:55:15 <maaku> proof-updates i think... you're talking about updating the inclusion proofs for the inputs of a transaction?
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1511 2013-09-04 22:58:08 <gmaxwell> maaku: say you have an existing blockchain utxo root you trust. I can author a proof for a new transaction which (1) proves the transaction to be valid, (2) tells you what utxo changes must be made to include that transaction. .. with that you could mine a block with that transaction. (ignoring the coinbase for a moment)
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1513 2013-09-04 22:58:59 <gmaxwell> maaku: if the utxo tree has the properties amiller and I have been talking about, then with no additional data you could take many such transaction+proofs and compose them and mine a block with all those transactions.
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1516 2013-09-04 23:05:54 <gmaxwell> (handling the coinbase for a storageless miner requires the miners going and consulting an archive to generate their insert proofs, which is a bit obnoxious, but at least it could be done in advance)
1517 2013-09-04 23:06:39 <gmaxwell> oh interesting. Committed utxo in the coinbase isn't actually possible. :(
1518 2013-09-04 23:06:50 <maaku> ?
1519 2013-09-04 23:07:17 <maaku> oh because of the recursion
1520 2013-09-04 23:07:18 <gmaxwell> How do you include the newly created coinbase transaction output in the utxo when you're committing to the utxo in the coinbase.
1521 2013-09-04 23:07:22 <gmaxwell> yea.
1522 2013-09-04 23:07:43 <gmaxwell> not the end of the world, coinbases could be output to another data sent and merged with a 100 block lag, since they're not spendable in any case.
1523 2013-09-04 23:07:59 <maaku> yea.
1524 2013-09-04 23:08:00 <gmaxwell> that actually solves my storageless mining problem mostly too. :P
1525 2013-09-04 23:08:07 <gmaxwell> s/sent/set/
1526 2013-09-04 23:08:16 <maaku> that measn you don't have to keep the coinbase flag around either
1527 2013-09-04 23:08:21 <maaku> which was rather ugly
1528 2013-09-04 23:08:51 <gmaxwell> when sipa was talking about ultraprunt I'd even suggested keeping coinbases in a seperate queue.
1529 2013-09-04 23:09:28 <gmaxwell> Also lets you take height out... though there may be advantages to keeping it. (e.g. I've been talking to ltc about making utxo expire)
1530 2013-09-04 23:09:38 <maaku> yeah i was thinking that too
1531 2013-09-04 23:09:58 <maaku> many advantages for the height
1532 2013-09-04 23:10:32 <maaku> well i wasn't thinking expiration, but knowing where to look to get the full transaction would be useful
1533 2013-09-04 23:10:43 <gmaxwell> hm. Other than expiration (which to me seems unlikely in bitcoin), and the hacks we use to use the utxo to query block history in the reference client?
1534 2013-09-04 23:10:53 <gmaxwell> yea, okay we use it for that in the reference client.
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1536 2013-09-04 23:11:13 <maaku> also, if you implement a demurrage minfee for utxo storage as I suggested earlier
1537 2013-09-04 23:11:31 <gmaxwell> Even less likely in bitcoin than expiration. :P
1538 2013-09-04 23:11:33 <gmaxwell> But yea.
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1541 2013-09-04 23:12:22 <gmaxwell> Yea, so .. immature coinbases need to get segregated.. no big deal. fairly small amount of state there.
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1543 2013-09-04 23:13:09 <maaku> not demurrage of value, just increase the relay fee for older inputs
1544 2013-09-04 23:14:02 <maaku> with, of course, considerations for decreasing the utxo size (credit for combining dust, to avoid the fee)
1545 2013-09-04 23:17:06 <gmaxwell> I have no idea what economic motivations you think would exist for that, but I think we've had this debate before and I don't care to repeat it.
1546 2013-09-04 23:17:28 <maaku> ok
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1575 2013-09-04 23:52:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: now with the signature from me your pgp key is the #666-th most connected key: http://pgp.cs.uu.nl/stats/1DAAC974.html :P
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