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   6 2013-09-05 00:05:58 <numismatics> jgarzik: tyvm for the torrent bootstrap.dat torrent
   7 2013-09-05 00:06:30 <Belxjander> numismatics: that bootstrap.dat torrent was not working for me
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   9 2013-09-05 00:06:48 <jgarzik> Belxjander, what was the problem you saw?
  10 2013-09-05 00:06:50 <numismatics> I started it from the magnet link
  11 2013-09-05 00:07:47 <numismatics> once its done I'll check the signature?
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  13 2013-09-05 00:08:03 <Belxjander> jgarzik: lack of connectivity from my torrent client to any peers
  14 2013-09-05 00:08:29 <Belxjander> jgarzik: so nothing to do with your torrent... more likely some TTL distance issue with my network connection
  15 2013-09-05 00:09:02 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: using rtorrent?
  16 2013-09-05 00:09:14 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: ctorrent on AmigaOS
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  18 2013-09-05 00:09:33 <Belxjander> I'm willing to try again since I deleted the original and the large empty file it made
  19 2013-09-05 00:09:52 <numismatics> why caution against --rescan?
  20 2013-09-05 00:09:56 <gmaxwell> probably the same boat... librtorrent at least cannot bootstrap and can only use the DHT if you already have a torrent on a working tracker and do peer exchange or something daft like that.
  21 2013-09-05 00:10:24 <gmaxwell> numismatics: I don't know what you're referring to, but rescan should never be needed.
  22 2013-09-05 00:10:44 <gmaxwell> (unless you've gone and hexedited your wallet or done imports with rescan=false)
  23 2013-09-05 00:10:54 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: so basically the client I have is "shot in the head" stupid with regards some updated bittorrent protocol semantics?
  24 2013-09-05 00:11:03 <numismatics> i thought jgarzik's instructions were that the bootstrap.dat should only be used for fresh installs, and that while --rescan should work fine
  25 2013-09-05 00:11:07 <numismatics> cautioned against it
  26 2013-09-05 00:11:46 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: in general the bittorrent world is supprisingly uh.. lossy for small torrents.
  27 2013-09-05 00:12:40 <gmaxwell> numismatics: the torrent does no good on an existing install. Can you quote what you're talking about though?
  28 2013-09-05 00:12:43 <Belxjander> its a "small" torrent for the bootstrap.dat ?
  29 2013-09-05 00:12:46 <gmaxwell> Someone is probably confusing rescan with reindex.
  30 2013-09-05 00:12:51 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: small number of users.
  31 2013-09-05 00:13:01 <Belxjander> ahhh
  32 2013-09-05 00:13:29 <numismatics> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/blockchain/
  33 2013-09-05 00:13:59 <numismatics> somehow my blockchain got corrupted; i thought downloading the torrent would be a faster way of reindexing the entire chain
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  57 2013-09-05 00:58:31 <maaku> numismatics: even if you downloaded the torrent you'd still have to reindex...
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  59 2013-09-05 00:58:54 <numismatics> bot not have to d/l the whole blockchain?
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  63 2013-09-05 01:05:48 <maaku> reindexing and downloading are completely unrelated
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  70 2013-09-05 01:10:03 <maaku> numismatics: reindexing is when you've already downloaded the block chain, and want to regenerate the index structures built from it
  71 2013-09-05 01:10:22 <maaku> it's like 'downloading' the chain from your own hard disk
  72 2013-09-05 01:10:42 <maaku> do you have the chain already, somewhere?
  73 2013-09-05 01:10:46 <maaku> then run with -reindex
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  76 2013-09-05 01:11:31 <TheLordOfTime> and reindexing can take just as much time as it took to index as you download, depending on the circumstances/system specs
  77 2013-09-05 01:11:39 <TheLordOfTime> (i tested that on the same system before because curious :P)
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  84 2013-09-05 01:14:40 <Belxjander> anyone else got the bootstrap.dat and doesn't mind my trying a "-S CTCS" option on my BT client?
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 100 2013-09-05 01:47:12 * Luke-Jr updates http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/security.html
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 113 2013-09-05 02:09:55 <freewil> nice
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 117 2013-09-05 02:12:24 <freewil> what would be a broken node
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 121 2013-09-05 02:28:24 <Luke-Jr> freewil: one that can't sync past the last hardfork
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 123 2013-09-05 02:28:39 <freewil> ah
 124 2013-09-05 02:28:42 <Luke-Jr> freewil: so pre-0.8 that aren't on the latest backport branch
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 150 2013-09-05 03:37:19 <cfields> Luke-Jr: ping
 151 2013-09-05 03:37:48 <Luke-Jr> cfields: pong
 152 2013-09-05 03:38:56 <cfields> Luke-Jr: warren mentioned that you knew someone working on osx cross/deterministic builds. Do you have any more info on that?
 153 2013-09-05 03:39:12 <cfields> I'm considering tackling at, but won't bother if someone's already working on it
 154 2013-09-05 03:39:15 <Luke-Jr> besides warren's friend, just myself, and that was a while ago and obsolete
 155 2013-09-05 03:39:30 <Luke-Jr> you can find my work on the Gitorious cross-osx project
 156 2013-09-05 03:41:41 <cfields> ok. Is there a bounty put up for it somewhere?
 157 2013-09-05 03:42:32 <Luke-Jr> I have some donations in my personal wallet I can forward on when something works
 158 2013-09-05 03:42:43 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Quit!)
 159 2013-09-05 03:44:06 <cfields> well I have it working (hacked in POC ofcourse) and I'd like to get it in officially, I just figured i'd try to meet any bounty requirements while I'm at it, if they're out there
 160 2013-09-05 03:44:09 <cfields> got any specifics?
 161 2013-09-05 03:45:28 <Luke-Jr> cfields: PM me your email and I'll send you some
 162 2013-09-05 03:46:24 <Luke-Jr> sent
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 167 2013-09-05 03:49:33 <cfields> Luke-Jr: only possible issue i forsee is the "free-software-only" requirement + dmg creation
 168 2013-09-05 03:49:40 FlyingLeap has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 169 2013-09-05 03:50:04 <Luke-Jr> cfields: I can't imagine DMG is that hard to create
 170 2013-09-05 03:50:19 <cfields> i'm able to create bitcoind/bitcoin-qt without issue, but info is pretty sparse on the dmg
 171 2013-09-05 03:50:43 <cfields> creating a dmg? no, doable. creating one worty of official release may be a different story
 172 2013-09-05 03:50:50 <cfields> *worthy
 173 2013-09-05 03:50:57 <Belxjander> DMG files?
 174 2013-09-05 03:51:04 <Belxjander> Mac OS X Disk Image files?
 175 2013-09-05 03:51:12 <cfields> meaning: deterministic, compressed, pretty
 176 2013-09-05 03:51:13 <cfields> yea
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 180 2013-09-05 03:55:39 <BCB> anyone see this http://blockchain.info/blocks/88.208.1.24
 181 2013-09-05 03:55:48 * BlueMatt can now claim two p2p-triggered crashes in bitcoind introduced that lasted several versions before anyone noticed...
 182 2013-09-05 03:56:04 <BlueMatt> maybe someone should review my code before merging next time
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 184 2013-09-05 03:57:01 <lianj> :D
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 186 2013-09-05 03:57:52 <cfields> Luke-Jr: could you expand upon "some donations?" trying to decide what to prioritize
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 195 2013-09-05 04:09:55 <gavinandresen> cfields: working on the pull-tester for autotools… can you make a couple changes to pull-tester.sh ?
 196 2013-09-05 04:10:05 reneg has joined
 197 2013-09-05 04:10:51 <cfields> sure
 198 2013-09-05 04:11:35 <gavinandresen> great.  Change 1:  I'd like to put all the pull-tester stuff in a qa/pull-tester folder, instead of contrib/test-scripts
 199 2013-09-05 04:12:03 <cfields> ok
 200 2013-09-05 04:12:13 <gavinandresen> And Change 2: I'd like to pass the path-to-root-directory as the first argument to pull-tester.sh
 201 2013-09-05 04:12:39 <gavinandresen> (run it as  pull-tester.sh /mnt/bitcoin /mnt/mingw-deps /path/to/.jar 6 )
 202 2013-09-05 04:14:39 <cfields> ok. i had it that way originally, but ended up changing my mind since the only way the pull-tester and the scripts dir (qa/pull-tester) can be guaranteed in-sync is with the assumption that they're run from the same repo
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 204 2013-09-05 04:15:32 <cfields> i'd rather not give that up, but will do if that's your preference
 205 2013-09-05 04:15:45 <gavinandresen> cfields: if you have some way I can ' cd /mnt/bitcoin && pull-tester.sh …etc'  I'm happy not to change
 206 2013-09-05 04:15:56 <gavinandresen> The master pull-tester script runs:
 207 2013-09-05 04:16:01 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 208 2013-09-05 04:16:04 <gavinandresen> chroot /mnt/chroot-tmp sudo -u matt -H timeout 3600 /mnt/bitcoin/contrib/test-scripts/pull-tester.sh /mnt/mingw /mnt/test-scripts/BitcoinjBitcoindComparisonTool.jar 6
 209 2013-09-05 04:16:23 <gavinandresen> … which fails because chroot sets CWD to /
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 213 2013-09-05 04:16:57 <gavinandresen> The chroot / sudo / timeout is kind of crazy, but we want all three.
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 215 2013-09-05 04:18:19 <cfields> cd /mnt/bitcoin && contrib/test-scripts/pull-tester.sh ...
 216 2013-09-05 04:18:34 <cfields> does that not do what you want? i suspect i'm missing something
 217 2013-09-05 04:18:59 <gavinandresen> chroot and sudo and timeout all take a single command to run
 218 2013-09-05 04:19:07 <gavinandresen> … not a "do this && that"
 219 2013-09-05 04:19:25 <cfields> heh, that is indeed the thing i was missing :)
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 221 2013-09-05 04:20:35 <cfields> i'll change it as you described for now and think on it further
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 223 2013-09-05 04:21:42 <cfields> new folder at srcroot called qa, right?
 224 2013-09-05 04:21:51 <gavinandresen> yes
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 233 2013-09-05 04:39:47 <cfields> gavinandresen: pushed
 234 2013-09-05 04:40:03 <gavinandresen> cfields: awesome, I'll give it a whirl right now
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 236 2013-09-05 04:42:56 <gavinandresen> ./autogen.sh: 1: autoreconf: not found
 237 2013-09-05 04:43:02 <gavinandresen> which package is that again?
 238 2013-09-05 04:43:28 <cfields> grabbing automake/autoconf/libtool/pkgconfig should cover everything i think
 239 2013-09-05 04:44:28 <cfields> gavinandresen: i've got to head out, will try to make it back in an hour or so
 240 2013-09-05 04:44:33 <cfields> fingers crossed
 241 2013-09-05 04:44:44 <gavinandresen> cfields: cool
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 243 2013-09-05 04:46:32 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, heh
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 253 2013-09-05 05:03:14 <gavinandresen> cfields: when you're back:  configure is failing to find OpenSSL (Ubuntu 10.04, openssl package is installed, I see /usr/include/openssl and /usr/lib/libssl* )
 254 2013-09-05 05:05:24 <gavinandresen> … wait, might be missing pkg-config ....
 255 2013-09-05 05:09:26 <gavinandresen> cfields: never mind, chroot environment was missing pkg-config
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 258 2013-09-05 05:15:21 <cfields> gavinandresen: back. i'll add a pkg-config check where needed. will hold off on pushing til you're ready for a test-push
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 267 2013-09-05 05:39:49 <gavinandresen> cfields: Getting an error running check-local in linux-build:  usage: timeout [-signal] time command...
 268 2013-09-05 05:40:45 <cfields> hmm, maybe params for timeout changed. checking
 269 2013-09-05 05:43:26 <cfields> gavinandresen: can you do timeout --version or timeout --help? looks like it could be 1 of 2 progs actually called timeout
 270 2013-09-05 05:44:08 <gavinandresen> timeout --version or --help just gives me usage
 271 2013-09-05 05:44:39 <gavinandresen> cfields: it is the ubuntu 10.04 timeout from the timeout package
 272 2013-09-05 05:49:46 <cfields> gavinandresen: mm.. the docs are a bit funny for lucid. is it somehow possible that you don't have coreutils installed in the chroot?
 273 2013-09-05 05:50:20 <cfields> (i'll come up with a fix that does away with timeout to avoid the headache, just thinking of a quick fix for now)
 274 2013-09-05 05:51:14 <gavinandresen> "coreutils is already the newest version." in the chroot
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 276 2013-09-05 05:54:19 <cfields> gavinandresen: ok, let's just find the param that makes it barf and i'll drop it for now...
 277 2013-09-05 05:55:33 <cfields> gavinandresen: can you try: "timeout 5s ls" ?
 278 2013-09-05 05:57:55 <gavinandresen> cfields: timeout 5s ls   :  works
 279 2013-09-05 05:58:09 <gavinandresen> (do you need the "s" ?)
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 281 2013-09-05 05:58:43 <cfields> yea, that's 5 seconds as opposed to 5m
 282 2013-09-05 05:59:23 <cfields> newer timeout has '-k 5s' which means "if SIGTERM didn't work, really kill it with a kill -9 after 5 more sec"
 283 2013-09-05 05:59:29 <gavinandresen> mmm.  man timeout on the jenkins machine says:   time   The elapsed time limit in seconds after which the command is terminated.
 284 2013-09-05 06:00:11 <cfields> does the man page say what package it comes from?
 285 2013-09-05 06:00:36 <gavinandresen> cfields: pretty sure I did an apt-get install timeout
 286 2013-09-05 06:01:02 <gavinandresen> … because I needed it for the kill-the-test-after-an-hour functionality (some pulls were hanging pull-tester)
 287 2013-09-05 06:01:29 <gavinandresen> man page doesn't say what package it is from
 288 2013-09-05 06:02:02 <cfields> gavinandresen: ah, i see
 289 2013-09-05 06:02:05 <cfields> http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/timeout
 290 2013-09-05 06:02:15 <cfields> Please note that recent coreutils (>= 7.5-1) provide a timeout binary as well so you probably won't need this package anymore nowadays.
 291 2013-09-05 06:02:28 <cfields> fails to mention, though, that lucid coreutils is 7.4.x
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 294 2013-09-05 06:04:13 <cfields> gavinandresen: "timeout 3s ls -R /"
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 296 2013-09-05 06:04:25 <cfields> if that's killed after 3 sec, that's good enough for us and i'll make the change
 297 2013-09-05 06:04:56 <gavinandresen> Timeout: aborting command ``ls'' with signal 9
 298 2013-09-05 06:05:13 <gavinandresen> works.  I'm guessing atoi just ignores the "s" in "3s"
 299 2013-09-05 06:06:40 <cfields> ok, that's fine, should be universal that way then
 300 2013-09-05 06:06:58 <cfields> actually one more: "timeout 10s ls ."
 301 2013-09-05 06:07:12 * jgarzik lurks
 302 2013-09-05 06:07:12 <cfields> then "echo $?" to be sure the exit code is 0
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 305 2013-09-05 06:12:40 <gavinandresen> cfields: yup
 306 2013-09-05 06:12:57 <cfields> ok. want me to push the fix?
 307 2013-09-05 06:13:09 <gavinandresen> yes
 308 2013-09-05 06:13:43 <gavinandresen> $? after a killed ls is 137, by the way...
 309 2013-09-05 06:14:10 <cfields> ok. i suppose i should ask: i've been operating under the assumption that the git dir is pristine for each run. is that a reasonable assumption, i hope?
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 312 2013-09-05 06:15:27 <cfields> the git workdir, that is
 313 2013-09-05 06:16:02 <gavinandresen> yes, the pull-tester reinitializes the chroot environment then does a fresh git clone / merge
 314 2013-09-05 06:16:38 <cfields> ok
 315 2013-09-05 06:16:53 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 316 2013-09-05 06:18:29 <cfields> pushed
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 318 2013-09-05 06:23:18 <gavinandresen> different error this time!
 319 2013-09-05 06:25:25 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 320 2013-09-05 06:25:47 <cfields> ergh
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 324 2013-09-05 06:31:14 <Vinnie_win> I'm building a template based peer to peer network simulator for aiding unit testing
 325 2013-09-05 06:31:56 <gmaxwell> ... how about buildint actual system tests instead of template wank that will be difficulty to maintain and not actually representative of anything? :P
 326 2013-09-05 06:32:44 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 327 2013-09-05 06:34:28 <Vinnie_win> heh
 328 2013-09-05 06:34:32 <Vinnie_win> its for ripple, foolio
 329 2013-09-05 06:34:51 <Vinnie_win> you provide the necessary adapters to make it work with whatever
 330 2013-09-05 06:34:59 <jgarzik> does Ripple have a real scripting system yet?  :)
 331 2013-09-05 06:35:04 <Vinnie_win> not sure
 332 2013-09-05 06:35:07 <Vinnie_win> don think so
 333 2013-09-05 06:35:50 <gmaxwell> oh well, I suppose the maintainability for some centeralized non-OSS thing isn't much of concern for anyone but its authors. Be my guest.
 334 2013-09-05 06:36:09 JoeMattie has joined
 335 2013-09-05 06:36:29 <Vinnie_win> you forget i do most of my develop in an external library and publish those changes regularly as open source
 336 2013-09-05 06:36:50 <Vinnie_win> like all the asio multi-protocol handshaking is all in there and its ISC licensed
 337 2013-09-05 06:38:45 <cfields> gavinandresen: any specific error? :)
 338 2013-09-05 06:39:13 <gavinandresen> cfields: pull-tester should have sent you email with a link to the log
 339 2013-09-05 06:39:28 <cfields> ah, didn't realize the new stuff was active
 340 2013-09-05 06:39:29 <cfields> checking
 341 2013-09-05 06:39:51 <gavinandresen> cfields: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/877bffddb4be4d236e5963f5506cb18b10ad969e/
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 344 2013-09-05 06:41:17 <cfields> gavinandresen: i suppose nothing's changed wrt dependencies on the build machine?
 345 2013-09-05 06:41:49 <gavinandresen> cfields: nope.  I'm successfully re-running an old pull-request now to make sure
 346 2013-09-05 06:41:50 melvster has joined
 347 2013-09-05 06:42:01 <cfields> ok, thanks. looking
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 352 2013-09-05 06:42:44 <cfields> it uses system qt, right? as opposed to a manual install
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 354 2013-09-05 06:43:19 <gavinandresen> pretty sure, yes
 355 2013-09-05 06:43:36 <cfields> ok
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 360 2013-09-05 07:04:00 <gavinandresen> cfields: if it helps, successful pull-test of an old pull:  http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/8dc206a1e2715be83912e039465a049b708b94c1/test.log
 361 2013-09-05 07:06:21 <gavinandresen> New pull-tester is running in a while true; test-pulls; sleep 1800; done  loop
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 394 2013-09-05 08:09:58 <warren> The bug is not reproducible, so it is likely a hardware or OS problem.
 395 2013-09-05 08:09:59 <warren> make: *** [obj/rpcrawtransaction.o] Error 1
 396 2013-09-05 08:10:07 <warren> what?...
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 430 2013-09-05 09:20:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: so... two bits of news... with some fixes phantomcircuit has been working on, headers first first 100k blocks is down to <3 minutes.
 431 2013-09-05 09:20:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: second is that I aborted a headers first node midsync and changed back to non-headers first code and it just sits there not attempting to pull blocks.
 432 2013-09-05 09:21:30 <gmaxwell> nuking the blocks/chainstate fixes it.
 433 2013-09-05 09:22:26 <warren> how many minutes was it with headers first only?
 434 2013-09-05 09:23:11 <gmaxwell> warren: slow. ten minutes? dunno a long time.
 435 2013-09-05 09:24:01 <gmaxwell> Headers first reduces the maximum batching size way down because it needs to to achieve loadbalancing.. but if you're pulling only from a single peer at least for the initial blocks at the front the message processing delays dominate.
 436 2013-09-05 09:24:08 <cfields> gavinandresen: if you're around, can you give the builder a kick? i think that last fix should do it, it'd be nice to see if it works before i go
 437 2013-09-05 09:24:13 <warren> I predict headers-first will be bottlenecked on our PoW.  not much we can do to improve it.
 438 2013-09-05 09:24:35 paraipan has joined
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 441 2013-09-05 09:27:00 <gmaxwell> warren: yea, I dunno why the single instance was made so cpu intensive. it's not even just the memory hard part.
 442 2013-09-05 09:27:01 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 443 2013-09-05 09:29:55 chax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 444 2013-09-05 09:29:56 <warren> gmaxwell: long before my time, and I'm neutral on this being good or bad.  I'm leaning towards bad and can't be changed.
 445 2013-09-05 09:30:29 chax has joined
 446 2013-09-05 09:30:47 <gmaxwell> warren: well, if you wanted to change it.. I'd suggest doing so now before any hardware is announced. :P
 447 2013-09-05 09:31:41 <gmaxwell> might be possible, if a bunch of your miners are ex-bitcoin gpu miner refugees who don't want to be pushed out again. :P
 448 2013-09-05 09:32:09 <warren> refugees
 449 2013-09-05 09:32:15 msvb-lab has joined
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 451 2013-09-05 09:33:14 <gmaxwell> "our new POW requires texture filtering"
 452 2013-09-05 09:33:32 <warren> The mysterious sponsor was ... AMD.
 453 2013-09-05 09:33:59 <gmaxwell> texture filtering and a bunch of integer bitops!
 454 2013-09-05 09:34:45 <gavinandresen> cfields: it kicked itself, is testing d829ed6f535c9cede5a74841832c7e114d0a94aa now
 455 2013-09-05 09:36:23 <cfields> thanks
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 457 2013-09-05 09:36:45 <warren> gmaxwell: wouldn't that make the PoW validation far worse?
 458 2013-09-05 09:36:52 <cfields> gavinandresen: side-note, builds will use ccache if it's available. so you might consider installing it in the chroot to speed things up
 459 2013-09-05 09:36:57 <warren> =)
 460 2013-09-05 09:38:52 <Eliel> is there a way in a script to push the block headers for the block that contains the txout onto the stack?
 461 2013-09-05 09:41:32 <Eliel> if there is, then it's possible to do a coinjoin transaction where it's left to chance which addresse's private keys are required to spend the transaction.
 462 2013-09-05 09:42:03 <gmaxwell> Eliel: no, the system seems to have been pretty carefully constructed to decouple the chain and transactions— a little too much perhaps. :)
 463 2013-09-05 09:42:20 <Eliel> (this might get people getting rid o their dust ;)
 464 2013-09-05 09:43:20 <gmaxwell> Eliel: you can actually do 'gamble transactions' but, uh, they don't come out small, which is kinda contrary to your goal.
 465 2013-09-05 09:43:57 <gmaxwell> Eliel: e.g. each party provides a hashed value, and to spend you provide both preimages, it hashes them and then uses that to select the pubkey.
 466 2013-09-05 09:45:06 <gmaxwell> Eliel: something that did what you wanted would be kinda ugly because the vailidity of a dependant transaction would be non-determinstic until the transaction was mined.. which totally blows away the idea of having an unconfirmed transaction mempool.
 467 2013-09-05 09:46:15 macboz_ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 468 2013-09-05 09:46:43 <Eliel> you could make the opcode that pushes the headers to stack to have the script fail unless the transaction has at least one confirmation.
 469 2013-09-05 09:49:13 <cfields> ffs
 470 2013-09-05 09:50:33 <Eliel> gmaxwell: basically, what I'm looking for is a random number generator that's usable in scripts. Provably fair deterministic random number generator, that is.
 471 2013-09-05 09:52:19 <gmaxwell> Eliel: well I just gave you one.
 472 2013-09-05 09:52:25 <cfields> gavinandresen: i'm not sure what the problem is, but the java test just timed out after 20min
 473 2013-09-05 09:52:40 <cfields> i'll have to investigate later
 474 2013-09-05 09:52:56 <gavinandresen> cfields: the blockchain tests might take longer than 20 minutes to run
 475 2013-09-05 09:53:12 <gavinandresen> (the big re-orgs tests take a lot of time)
 476 2013-09-05 09:53:50 <cfields> hmm, ok
 477 2013-09-05 09:54:07 <cfields> i wasn't seeing anywhere near that locally, but something must be different
 478 2013-09-05 09:54:23 <cfields> i'll bump it to 45 for now
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 480 2013-09-05 09:54:42 <gavinandresen> why set any timeout?
 481 2013-09-05 09:54:52 <gavinandresen> The top-level pull-tester has a timeout set....
 482 2013-09-05 09:54:56 <Eliel> gmaxwell: yes, you did. I'll see if I can modify that principle into something that works without bloat.
 483 2013-09-05 09:55:46 <gavinandresen> cfields: Also: I installed ccache in the chroot environment
 484 2013-09-05 09:56:15 <cfields> gavinandresen: i'd prefer not to make any assumptions (or as few as possible) about the environment, so that devs can be encouraged to run these tests locally and all get the same results
 485 2013-09-05 09:56:54 <gavinandresen> ok.  Devs will control-C if tests take too long....
 486 2013-09-05 09:58:24 <cfields> fair enough
 487 2013-09-05 09:59:55 <cfields> pushed. last one for me, time to head out
 488 2013-09-05 09:59:58 <cfields> thanks for the patience
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 493 2013-09-05 10:05:13 <gavinandresen> I need some shed-painting advice...
 494 2013-09-05 10:06:06 <gavinandresen> I'm working on smart client-side miner-fee-policy code, and an RPC method that returns the estimate
 495 2013-09-05 10:07:24 <gavinandresen> First cut at the API is:  https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/commit/2706e891c139b9d55a6ee1a5456c9736f9005925#L3R392
 496 2013-09-05 10:07:29 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 497 2013-09-05 10:08:05 <gavinandresen> Do y'all like the name 'estimateminerpolicy' ?
 498 2013-09-05 10:09:02 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 499 2013-09-05 10:10:20 <gmaxwell> how about  "estimatefeepolicy"  ?  (suggesting removing miner since relaying is also indirectly implicated there) or even just "estimatefees"
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 501 2013-09-05 10:15:13 <gavinandresen> It is a little weird, because it estimates both fee-needed-to-get-into-a-block and priority-needed-if-zero-fee
 502 2013-09-05 10:15:30 <gavinandresen> I'd be ok with estimatefees, though
 503 2013-09-05 10:15:58 <gmaxwell> I saw that. "Priority is just another kind of fee." :)
 504 2013-09-05 10:16:26 <warren> priority-needed-if-zero-fee is extra weird given it is unpredictable if your peers will relay your tx at all depending on what is already in their mempool.
 505 2013-09-05 10:16:58 <warren> I kind of consider that to be a bug, but I hear it is an anti-DoS measure...
 506 2013-09-05 10:16:59 <gavinandresen> relaying policy needs to change at the same time, I haven't tackled that yet
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 508 2013-09-05 10:18:26 blaeks has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 509 2013-09-05 10:18:39 <gavinandresen> (I've been looking at active queue management algorithms, and think something like CODEL could work nicely, with lowest fee and/or priority transactions dropped and not relayed)
 510 2013-09-05 10:19:23 blaeks has joined
 511 2013-09-05 10:19:32 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: wrt policy, I have a pull in that twiddles how the free transaction priority works to make transactions that consume many outputs no lower priority than a few.
 512 2013-09-05 10:19:52 <warren> and the threshold of what is dropped is dynamic?
 513 2013-09-05 10:19:56 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I saw that, seems reasonable
 514 2013-09-05 10:20:34 <gavinandresen> warren: sure, there would be a queue, and if the queue gets backed up (not enough bandwidth) then transactions are dropped
 515 2013-09-05 10:20:42 <sturles> Let me add a suggestion here: If priority >> estimated priority needed for no fee (e.g. 100 times larger), add smallest output < 0.05 BTC to inputs to swipe up some dust.
 516 2013-09-05 10:20:56 KillYourTV has joined
 517 2013-09-05 10:21:14 <gmaxwell> sturles: yes, on the todo list. I have some older local patches for that, but I want the priority scheme adjusted to not disincentivize that anymore.
 518 2013-09-05 10:21:48 <gmaxwell> sturles: mike hearn had suggested a pretty different strategy to coin selection in general that I think makes a lot of sense.
 519 2013-09-05 10:22:26 <gavinandresen> sturles: yes, good idea, but separate from what I'm trying to do with the smartfee work
 520 2013-09-05 10:22:40 <gmaxwell> (basically one which didn't shy at all away from gobbling up inputs if there is change: you're going to consume them eventually anyways)
 521 2013-09-05 10:22:43 <warren> Would that have any deanonymizing effect?
 522 2013-09-05 10:23:24 <gmaxwell> warren: it can be done in a way that doesn't.
 523 2013-09-05 10:24:06 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 524 2013-09-05 10:24:32 <gmaxwell> warren: select your inputs, then do sturles's refinement pass adding inputs but only considering ones which aren't privacy harming. Less effective than if you ignore privacy, but no tradeoff.
 525 2013-09-05 10:24:39 <gmaxwell> Strictly superior to not trying to sweep.
 526 2013-09-05 10:24:58 <warren> "ones which aren't privacy harming" means what?
 527 2013-09-05 10:25:43 <gmaxwell> warren: inputs paid to the same addresses, for example. Inputs paid to addresses that you've already cojoined with the current addresses (e.g. what listaddressgroupings computes)
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 531 2013-09-05 10:33:06 <warren> gavinandresen: hmm, i guess with the estimate available to every user, they shouldn't be surprised if their low fee/priority tx is dropped.  Currently they have no way to know that is likely to happen before they send it.
 532 2013-09-05 10:33:13 <warren> gavinandresen: (in the case of zero fee)
 533 2013-09-05 10:36:00 <gavinandresen> cfields: huzzah!  Automatic sanity-testing: PASSED
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 537 2013-09-05 10:46:13 <wumpus> woohoo
 538 2013-09-05 10:46:18 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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 542 2013-09-05 10:50:23 <warren> gavinandresen: interesting, estimate based only on mempool?  I would have thought an estimate would be based on average delays of certain fee levels to get into recent blocks.
 543 2013-09-05 10:54:14 d34th has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 544 2013-09-05 10:54:36 <gmaxwell> "I don't have to outrun the bear, I have to outrun you."
 545 2013-09-05 10:55:43 <gmaxwell> Whats actually in blocks is a so/so metric because a lot of weirdness goes into how miners actually pick (e.g. IIRC btcguild, and eligius both have side deals with big services to process selected transactions for them)
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 548 2013-09-05 10:56:17 <warren> hmm
 549 2013-09-05 10:56:32 <warren> I guess my way would encourage collusion too.
 550 2013-09-05 10:57:20 <sturles> gmaxwell: Perhaps the level of privacy, or agressiveness, when collecting dust could be a configurable option?
 551 2013-09-05 10:58:55 <gmaxwell> sturles: "more stuff to test" personally I'd be happy with just getting something in that was privacy preserving (the conservative option) an enhancing it later.
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 554 2013-09-05 11:03:26 <sturles> Yes, it's clearly better than status quo.
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 560 2013-09-05 11:39:39 <cfields> gavinandresen: huzzah indeed. Proposed next steps?
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 568 2013-09-05 12:00:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, downgrading to pre-headersfirst... no idea how that would work
 569 2013-09-05 12:00:32 <sipa> in fully synced state it should be fine
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 605 2013-09-05 13:25:18 <sturles> Another coin selection related suggestion: When someone has e.g. 3.8451003 BTC and try to send 3.8451, it fails.  They will usually end up sending 3.844 BTC, leaving 0.0010003 BTC in their wallet and 0.0001 BTC as fee, while sending the whole balance (3.8451003) BTC would have worked.  This increases dust.  (I have examples which I can dig up if you want to see it for yourselves.)
 606 2013-09-05 13:26:05 <sturles> Instead of refusing to send 3.8451 BTC in this case, it should just do it taking the entire 3.8451003 BTC as input, producing one output of 3.8451, and leave the rest as fees.
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 608 2013-09-05 13:26:52 <sturles> Worthless to a miner, but even more worthless to the owner.
 609 2013-09-05 13:28:56 <sturles> Here is an example: https://blockchain.info/tx/f0b6a539331d1b6764625d4e3c3d5fad4c735df1d0c4fc9525ca948b21658262
 610 2013-09-05 13:29:59 <sturles> I know he tried to send 1.957 BTC, which failed because it would leave a 0.00003 dust output.  The resulting 0.00103 output will probably stay forever as uncollected dust.
 611 2013-09-05 13:30:21 <sturles> s/1.957/1.958/
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 629 2013-09-05 14:01:23 <jouke> How many confirmations does a coinbase transaction normally need before it becomes spendable?
 630 2013-09-05 14:01:40 <jouke> Mtgox just gave us a transaction that is based on a recent coinbase transaction.
 631 2013-09-05 14:03:40 <_dr> 120
 632 2013-09-05 14:04:33 <sipa> jouke: yes, apparently they've been doing that for a while
 633 2013-09-05 14:04:35 <jouke> \o/
 634 2013-09-05 14:04:56 <jouke> always something :,(
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 638 2013-09-05 14:09:22 <Subo1977_> kinlo: Hi, why i'm banned from #bitcoin?
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 640 2013-09-05 14:09:58 <jgarzik> sipa, MagicalTux is aware of the issue?
 641 2013-09-05 14:10:11 <sipa> no clue
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 646 2013-09-05 14:12:46 <Subo1977_> some #bitcoin channel-OP here?
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 648 2013-09-05 14:13:51 <DiabloD3> http://www.mailpile.is/blog/2013-09-05_PayPal_Freezes_Campaign_Funds.html
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 674 2013-09-05 14:53:37 <plaprade> In HDW (Bip32), are account (depth=1) generated through public or private derivation?
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 678 2013-09-05 14:56:41 <sipa> plaprade: private
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 680 2013-09-05 14:56:53 <sipa> it's in the bip
 681 2013-09-05 14:57:41 <plaprade> sipa, thanks. I was confused because the graphical image in the BIP seems to suggest public derivation
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 684 2013-09-05 15:06:50 <plaprade> In the "Use Case" section of bip32, the "Audits" case using M only can not really be implemented if the first layer of accounts is derived through private derivation. The extended key M can not compute M/i' as far as I understand. It could compute M/i however
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 705 2013-09-05 15:44:02 <Luke-Jr> CVE-2013-5700 assigned for remote bloom filter crash
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 713 2013-09-05 15:58:42 <maaku> sturles: the coin selection algorithm does exactly what you suggest
 714 2013-09-05 15:58:42 <maaku> or rather, the transaction creation (it's not part of coin selection)
 715 2013-09-05 15:59:28 <maaku> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L1268
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 717 2013-09-05 15:59:51 <TD> good day
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 787 2013-09-05 18:17:01 <phrog> anyone know if multibit has a way to addnode?
 788 2013-09-05 18:17:43 <midnightmagic> out of curiosity, where are the release notes versioned?
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 790 2013-09-05 18:19:26 <TD> phrog: not in the gui
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 792 2013-09-05 18:19:38 <TD> (not as far as i know, anyway)
 793 2013-09-05 18:19:43 <TD> phrog: there's a config file i think that supports it
 794 2013-09-05 18:20:02 <phrog> oh, i will look into it
 795 2013-09-05 18:20:03 <phrog> thanks
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 799 2013-09-05 18:27:45 <maaku> midnightmagic: contrib/debian/changelog
 800 2013-09-05 18:28:23 <maaku> n/m those aren't up to date
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 807 2013-09-05 18:32:49 <midnightmagic> maaku: thanks anyway :)
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 813 2013-09-05 18:42:48 <gmaxwell> 07:09 < jgarzik> sipa, MagicalTux is aware of the issue?
 814 2013-09-05 18:43:04 <gmaxwell> I attempted to report it, I'd only give the cances that he got it at 25%
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 817 2013-09-05 18:52:43 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, report what?
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 819 2013-09-05 18:55:35 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: that they are spending immature coins.
 820 2013-09-05 18:55:50 <gmaxwell> Resulting in customers complaining that its taking them enos to get confirmation.
 821 2013-09-05 18:56:01 <gmaxwell> (esp since the immature spends don't realy)
 822 2013-09-05 18:56:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, spending immature coins as in spending coinbase coins without 120 confirms?
 823 2013-09-05 18:56:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: Immature meaning freshly generated coins.
 824 2013-09-05 18:56:14 <gmaxwell> Yes.
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 826 2013-09-05 18:56:28 <phantomcircuit> lol
 827 2013-09-05 18:56:38 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the network rule is 100, not 120. But yep.
 828 2013-09-05 18:56:40 <phantomcircuit> i bet someones sending coinbase outputs directly to mtgox
 829 2013-09-05 18:56:53 <phantomcircuit> where they're probably being accepted after 6 confirms
 830 2013-09-05 18:56:55 <gmaxwell> sure lots of eligius miners do.
 831 2013-09-05 18:58:37 <phantomcircuit> hmm so that's a nuisance but probably not a security issue
 832 2013-09-05 18:58:48 <phantomcircuit> i'll make sure he gets the message though
 833 2013-09-05 18:59:04 <gmaxwell> They've probably lost a small amount of coin that way, e.g. during the big fork.
 834 2013-09-05 18:59:21 <gmaxwell> But yea, not generally a security issue.
 835 2013-09-05 18:59:48 <phantomcircuit> it might be worth it to get all those miners business
 836 2013-09-05 18:59:54 <gmaxwell> But certantly a usability issue... also, he's been blaming the network for the slow confirmations.. :(
 837 2013-09-05 19:00:13 <phantomcircuit> at somepoint someone tried to do that with intersango and it correctly bared and told them to go away
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 839 2013-09-05 19:00:39 <phantomcircuit> barfed*
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 853 2013-09-05 19:26:03 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: if you look back in the #mtgox logs you can see me give an example txid.
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 858 2013-09-05 19:41:18 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im sure he has it in his logs
 859 2013-09-05 19:41:53 <phantomcircuit> bleh
 860 2013-09-05 19:42:03 <phantomcircuit> using djanog is such a pain for anything complex
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 862 2013-09-05 19:44:35 <jgarzik> NY Times: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/us/nsa-foils-much-internet-encryption.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&_r=0
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 864 2013-09-05 19:49:24 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, :/
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 866 2013-09-05 19:52:01 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, that seems to be largely saying the same thing we've prety much known all along
 867 2013-09-05 19:52:20 <phantomcircuit> that if your communications are in cleartext in the hands of anybody else they should be considered compromised
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 869 2013-09-05 19:54:08 <phantomcircuit> i wonder what it would take to build a javascript openpgp client
 870 2013-09-05 19:54:14 <phantomcircuit> im guessing something horrendous
 871 2013-09-05 19:56:01 <jgarzik> I would love to know the standard "adopted in 2006 by NIST" that was weaked by the NSA
 872 2013-09-05 19:56:37 * jgarzik recalls a couple somewhat-last-minute changes to magic numbers, in some standard algorithms, by NSA
 873 2013-09-05 19:56:44 <jgarzik> including SHA256?
 874 2013-09-05 19:56:46 * jgarzik tries to recall
 875 2013-09-05 19:57:04 <warren> didn't someone prove that one of those last minute changes made something stronger?
 876 2013-09-05 19:58:30 <warren> although it was decades ago
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 879 2013-09-05 20:00:01 <Cusipzzz> that was DES
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 883 2013-09-05 20:01:55 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, the SHA-2 competition wasn't even announced until 2007
 884 2013-09-05 20:02:09 <phantomcircuit> a more likely candidate is AES
 885 2013-09-05 20:02:20 <DiabloD3> phantomcircuit: er you mean 3?
 886 2013-09-05 20:02:20 <phantomcircuit> actually no that was 2001
 887 2013-09-05 20:02:24 <phantomcircuit> wow that was ages ago
 888 2013-09-05 20:02:35 <jgarzik> well regardless of date, I am curious about all algorithms with magic numbers sourced from the NSA :)
 889 2013-09-05 20:02:39 <DiabloD3> sha2 existed before 9/11 bro
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 891 2013-09-05 20:02:46 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, oh you're right
 892 2013-09-05 20:02:52 <jgarzik> some algos specifically source magic numbers from a printed, dead tree book of magic numbers for this reason
 893 2013-09-05 20:02:57 <jgarzik> *well known
 894 2013-09-05 20:03:06 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, confusingly they dont number the competitions...
 895 2013-09-05 20:03:09 <DiabloD3> hell, I remember asking people to use it when I was still in high school
 896 2013-09-05 20:03:30 <DiabloD3> because md5 was unsafe and sha1 was becoming unsafe
 897 2013-09-05 20:03:44 <jgarzik> it sounds like NSA has not broken strong crypto, when used correctly
 898 2013-09-05 20:04:04 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yeah SHA-2 was 2001
 899 2013-09-05 20:04:16 <jgarzik> however, it seems wise to mix algorithms, not just use multiple rounds of the same algo
 900 2013-09-05 20:04:26 <DiabloD3> jgarzik: yes
 901 2013-09-05 20:04:26 <jgarzik> i.e. ripemd160 + sha256, for example :)
 902 2013-09-05 20:05:05 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/PubsFIPS.html
 903 2013-09-05 20:05:11 <phantomcircuit> Personal Identity Verification (PIV) of Federal Employees and Contractors
 904 2013-09-05 20:05:14 <phantomcircuit> Minimum Security Requirements for Federal Information and Information Systems
 905 2013-09-05 20:05:43 <phantomcircuit> possibly there's a backdoor in the PIV system so the NSA can search federal records without a warrant?
 906 2013-09-05 20:06:09 <phantomcircuit> which would explain how snowden has all this info and they cant figure out what it is he has or how he got it...
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 912 2013-09-05 20:09:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thanks for that memory hard kdf paper, I believe I like theirs better than scrypt.
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 922 2013-09-05 20:24:46 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, it looked useful, though thank reddit/r/bitcoin not me
 923 2013-09-05 20:24:50 <jgarzik> man
 924 2013-09-05 20:25:02 <jgarzik> I really do think the NSA had some last-minute changes to SHA-2
 925 2013-09-05 20:25:09 <jgarzik> but my google-fu is weak
 926 2013-09-05 20:25:54 <gmaxwell> To SHA-2? hm? no, IIRC sha-2 appeared from mysterous sources fully formed.  To DES, yes.
 927 2013-09-05 20:26:40 <gmaxwell> (well not that mysterious, sha-2 is from the NSA.. it wasn't the result of a public design effort like sha3)
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 929 2013-09-05 20:27:03 <gmaxwell> (NSA also created SHA-1)
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 931 2013-09-05 20:30:30 <kjj> if the NSA knows a break in SHA, it isn't one that we can imagine.  h and k are derived from primes (the cryptographic version of rolling up your sleeves)
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 933 2013-09-05 20:31:23 <gmaxwell> kjj: when you pick your own nothing up your sleeve numbers they're not really accomplishing that purpose.
 934 2013-09-05 20:32:12 <gmaxwell> kjj: e.g. say the weakness worked for many constants but not all.. says 1 in 10.. so then have your mathematicians invent 20 different plausable nothing up my sleeve parameters and then pick the one that your technique works best on.
 935 2013-09-05 20:32:59 <kjj> h comes from the square roots of the first 8 primes, and k comes from the cube roots of the first 64 primes
 936 2013-09-05 20:33:38 <kjj> you could make the argument about picking the square and cube root operations, but it seems like a reach
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 952 2013-09-05 20:55:59 <maaku> jgarzik: i think you're thinking of SHA-1, which had a last minute NSA tweak
 953 2013-09-05 20:56:22 <maaku> although it was later shown to increase resistance to an attack that wasn't public yet
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 955 2013-09-05 20:58:35 <gmaxwell> maaku: are you sure about that? what you're describing is also correct for DES  (sbox construction replaced to increase resistance to differential cryptanalysis)
 956 2013-09-05 21:00:34 <jgarzik> what SSL and other crypto standards need is… the ability to specify chains of algorithms, and round counts for each
 957 2013-09-05 21:00:39 <maaku> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-1#SHA-0
 958 2013-09-05 21:00:43 <jgarzik> in the negotiation strings and such
 959 2013-09-05 21:01:10 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: its surprisingly easy to create vulnerabilities through compositions though. :(
 960 2013-09-05 21:02:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I assume you've seen the latest schneier writeups? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying
 961 2013-09-05 21:02:15 <jgarzik> on G+, having some good discussions about deterministic builds
 962 2013-09-05 21:02:22 <jgarzik> with the Linux/FOSS kernel hacker crowd
 963 2013-09-05 21:02:39 <jgarzik> a "how bitcoin does it" blog post or whitepaper would be very timely
 964 2013-09-05 21:02:46 <gmaxwell> esp the talk about weaknesses introduced through "bugs" rather than weak cryptographic objects.
 965 2013-09-05 21:03:05 <jgarzik> in fact, I think this is so important to software, I shall do so
 966 2013-09-05 21:03:18 <jgarzik> Linux distros need deterministic builds, pronto
 967 2013-09-05 21:03:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: great, if you write I'll be available to review.
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 970 2013-09-05 21:04:22 <gmaxwell> There are weaknesses in what we do— e.g. it rests on trusting a non-determinstic distro. :( really the whole thing should be built up from nothing but a VM, a kernel, and tinyc ... but thats a lot of computation which you'd prefer to not do just for one package.
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 975 2013-09-05 21:06:10 <maaku> gmaxwell: but making scripts for building a 'GitianOS' might be a good FOSS project, if this is something everyone is going to start doing
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 979 2013-09-05 21:07:38 <gmaxwell> maaku: luke apparently has some plan to make gentoo's build process deterministic (since gentoo is already pretty close to 'GitianOS')
 980 2013-09-05 21:08:05 <cfields> gmaxwell: for osx cross, i'm working on a system that is deterministic down to the toolchain level
 981 2013-09-05 21:08:19 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: if people start fearmongering about backdoored gcc, link them to diverse double compilation.
 982 2013-09-05 21:08:20 <cfields> which is essentially the same as gitian, except without the reliance on a distro, the toolchain can be plugged in
 983 2013-09-05 21:08:37 <cfields> that can be taken further if desired by bootstrapping/building the toolchain itself
 984 2013-09-05 21:08:49 <maaku> cfields: assuming the apple xcode binaries as input?
 985 2013-09-05 21:09:02 <cfields> maaku: no, built on linux
 986 2013-09-05 21:09:14 <cfields> well.. assuming the xcode sdk
 987 2013-09-05 21:09:17 <gmaxwell> cfields: a determinstic build is not determinstic without a determinstic toolchain. The use of a distro in gitian is just one way (one of the few ways) to get a deterministic toolchain.
 988 2013-09-05 21:09:48 <cfields> gmaxwell: understood and agreed. my point is that gitian is tied to a distro rather than a toolchain, which i consider to be a significant caveat
 989 2013-09-05 21:10:43 <gmaxwell> cfields: but there aren't other easy ways on foss systems to get a deterministic toolchain. For example, that toolchain must include libc and libstdc++ ... there are a _few_ people who do cross compiles who setup different libcs to compile against but its fairly uncommon.
 990 2013-09-05 21:11:05 <jgarzik> my kernel colleague and professional root hole finder (man, that sounds dirty)   Al Viro talked about backdoor'd gcc and turning remotely obtained C code into local exploits over 10 years ago :)
 991 2013-09-05 21:11:40 <tgs3> jgarzik: talked, as in... joked?
 992 2013-09-05 21:11:41 <cfields> gmaxwell: ok, i suppose i misspoke. I'm working on a system that is deterministic, given any X toolchain
 993 2013-09-05 21:11:55 <jgarzik> he will tell wonderful stories about how all our Linux file utilities suck, and are full of exploitable races
 994 2013-09-05 21:12:08 <cfields> from there, the next step would be to come up with an X toolchain that is deterministic for use
 995 2013-09-05 21:12:44 <jgarzik> non-root users may therefore interfere with a root user's file tree walking, and trigger the root priv'd process to do unexpected things
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 997 2013-09-05 21:12:49 <jgarzik> race fun
 998 2013-09-05 21:12:57 <gmaxwell> cfields: right. I understand what you're doing.
 999 2013-09-05 21:13:28 <cfields> gmaxwell: and i understand your point as well. baby steps :)
1000 2013-09-05 21:14:25 <jgarzik> hah!  another fun theory:  SecureRandom and other RNG fun was known/placed/encouraged/not reported by the NSA.  And bitcoin thefts then helpfully exposed this weakness.
1001 2013-09-05 21:14:31 <jgarzik> "helpfully"
1002 2013-09-05 21:15:36 <tgs3> jgarzik: I know a software project that fixes this problems
1003 2013-09-05 21:15:50 <tgs3> well, at least that is inside of their goals ;)
1004 2013-09-05 21:16:25 <jgarzik> the kernel hacker that maintains the /dev/random subsystem is noting with self-satisfaction how he resisted the call to make cpu instruction RDRAND push directly into the entropy pool without any other mixing
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1006 2013-09-05 21:18:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think one useful thing we can do is spend some time thinking about how to create backdoors. .. it's fun anyways, and maybe we'll reinvent one that already exists.
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1008 2013-09-05 21:19:00 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: E.g. I've implemented two different "evil quill" — ecdsa signers that are maximally malicious and leak your private keys in somewhat subtle ways.
1009 2013-09-05 21:19:35 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure that I could pass off the code of one of them to at least shallow public inspection too.
1010 2013-09-05 21:19:37 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Mental model comment:  just like Google builds a reliable datasystem atop unreliable hardware, can we build reliable distributed cryptosystems atop untrusted hardware?  :)
1011 2013-09-05 21:20:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Thats what we're already doing! (and the whole nodes verify everything model really helps that) But yea, how do we do more of that?
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1014 2013-09-05 21:24:33 <Cusipzzz> would really like to know what "specific facts" were removed from the articles
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1021 2013-09-05 21:31:28 <jgarzik> anyone see this bit?
1022 2013-09-05 21:31:30 <jgarzik> from one of the articles: "Prefer conventional discrete-log-based systems over elliptic-curve systems; the latter have constants that the NSA influences when they can."
1023 2013-09-05 21:31:48 <jgarzik> what's the source of our curve?  :)
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1028 2013-09-05 21:32:44 <warren> jgarzik: Satoshi was NSA?
1029 2013-09-05 21:32:50 <Cusipzzz> O_o
1030 2013-09-05 21:34:05 <edcba> don't devaluate my btc with your crazy theories ! :)
1031 2013-09-05 21:34:50 <helo> prematurely overvalue by assuming soundness?
1032 2013-09-05 21:36:08 <Cusipzzz> tanking/forums drama imminent
1033 2013-09-05 21:36:20 <edcba> jgarzik: we use some "well known" curves now we just have to see if NSA does know more than us about them :p
1034 2013-09-05 21:36:52 <edcba> maybe there is a paper on how they got chosen
1035 2013-09-05 21:38:30 <edcba> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=151120.0 old topic about choice of curves
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1039 2013-09-05 21:43:13 <gmaxwell> Our curve is not one of the ones the NSA normally pushes, but that doesn't mean it's not one that they influenced. OTOH, if NSA's parameter influence in things like P224 weakens them this means that the NSA has some powerful math not known to the public.
1040 2013-09-05 21:44:13 <edcba> i still didn't find how those koblitz curves have been chosen
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1042 2013-09-05 21:45:16 <maaku> edcba: who choose the specific koblitz curve that was standardized?
1043 2013-09-05 21:45:18 <maaku> that's the argument
1044 2013-09-05 21:45:30 <edcba> nist it seems
1045 2013-09-05 21:45:38 <edcba> it's not nsa we're safe ! :)
1046 2013-09-05 21:45:39 <maaku> nist == nsa
1047 2013-09-05 21:45:42 <maaku> for cryptography
1048 2013-09-05 21:45:44 <Cusipzzz> seems legit
1049 2013-09-05 21:46:24 <edcba> found a question about it : http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/9668/how-were-secpk1-elliptic-curve-generators-chosen
1050 2013-09-05 21:46:58 <edcba> haha love the first sentence of answer
1051 2013-09-05 21:47:18 <maaku> imho concern over this is tin foil paranoia, but yes, these nist crypto standards were written by the nsa, and yes they contain arbitrarily chosen values
1052 2013-09-05 21:48:10 <gmaxwell> It's not especially interesting in the context of bitcoin, I agree. Though at some point we should probably add support for an alternative public key scheme, lamport being the obvious choice.
1053 2013-09-05 21:49:08 <edcba> i missed some obvious step
1054 2013-09-05 21:49:20 <gmaxwell> (because the security proof is very simple and intutive, and its strong against quantum computers— so we get a pat answer to any fearmongering over that)
1055 2013-09-05 21:50:03 <jgarzik> rofl  "3d6.  it may not be elliptic, but it's a curve."
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1057 2013-09-05 21:50:30 <edcba> so the security will remain in the secure prng and our OS guarantees a secure prng far away from the influence of NSA ! :)
1058 2013-09-05 21:51:08 <Cusipzzz> *your OS may vary, void where prohibited
1059 2013-09-05 21:51:17 <gmaxwell> edcba: what are you talking about there?
1060 2013-09-05 21:51:41 <gmaxwell> There is no need to build cryptosystems that depend on the OS providing a secure PRNG.
1061 2013-09-05 21:51:45 <edcba> just kidding the prng part is same for every crypto stuff
1062 2013-09-05 21:52:33 <edcba> gmaxwell: nsa have "introduced" some secure prng in windows with dubious parameters
1063 2013-09-05 21:52:46 <edcba> now it's normally not used by default
1064 2013-09-05 21:53:05 <gmaxwell> edcba: yea sure, no one used EC_DUAL, I'm not sure why anyone would.
1065 2013-09-05 21:53:28 <edcba> i guess nsa does it so it can watches what their staff is doing
1066 2013-09-05 21:53:35 <edcba> or maybe they don't :)
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1069 2013-09-05 21:57:36 <wiretapped> in secp256k1 we trust
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1071 2013-09-05 21:58:30 <edcba> gmaxwell: it seems lamport stuff is heavier than ecc ?
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1073 2013-09-05 21:59:47 <Luke-Jr> much
1074 2013-09-05 22:00:39 <gmaxwell> edcba: what do you mean by heavier?
1075 2013-09-05 22:00:44 <gmaxwell> It's enormously faster to validate.
1076 2013-09-05 22:00:49 <edcba> more bytes
1077 2013-09-05 22:00:55 <gmaxwell> The signatures are indeed longer.
1078 2013-09-05 22:01:06 <edcba> nasty heavy bytes
1079 2013-09-05 22:01:57 <gmaxwell> With the best compression scheme I've come up with you're still taking about about 12kbyte signature+pubkey for 256 bit security.
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1081 2013-09-05 22:02:48 <gmaxwell> but it's all in the scriptsig, and could be structured so that the signature was prunable in the deep history... so I don't think it's non-viable, you might not want it for daily use.
1082 2013-09-05 22:03:28 <edcba> i don't like pruning :/
1083 2013-09-05 22:03:45 <gmaxwell> edcba: you're probably confused then.
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1085 2013-09-05 22:04:23 <gmaxwell> At least in the case of the existing bitcoin system pruning doesn't represent even the sightest reduction in the security model.
1086 2013-09-05 22:04:33 <gmaxwell> (though what I described there would be)
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1088 2013-09-05 22:05:15 <edcba> yes it's just some maintanibility problem
1089 2013-09-05 22:05:32 <gmaxwell> maintanibility problem?
1090 2013-09-05 22:06:12 <edcba> if the network has not the data to validate you need to add it to codez
1091 2013-09-05 22:06:15 <edcba> -z
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1095 2013-09-05 22:08:23 <gmaxwell> edcba: huh no! that would violate the security model. That isn't what pruning does.
1096 2013-09-05 22:08:56 <gmaxwell> If you add the data to the code you remove transparency and then have to trust the developers of your software without being able to vaidate their work.
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1098 2013-09-05 22:09:26 <gmaxwell> edcba: with pruing the was satsoshi described it in his paper you still validate everything, you just don't need to store it.
1099 2013-09-05 22:09:28 <maaku> edcba: if you prune, you keep *ALL* the data you need to validate future transactions. you *only* remove data that can be proven not to be required to validate new transactions
1100 2013-09-05 22:10:03 <edcba> for your node only, no ?
1101 2013-09-05 22:10:19 <maaku> what do you mean?
1102 2013-09-05 22:10:29 <maaku> you have all the information necessary to validate any transaction
1103 2013-09-05 22:10:32 <edcba> ie you know you validated some old tx so you discard the data you used to validate it
1104 2013-09-05 22:10:52 <maaku> yes, but why do you need to validate a transaction you've already validated?
1105 2013-09-05 22:11:08 <maaku> you put it aside in a box you label 'already validated transactions'
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1107 2013-09-05 22:11:22 <edcba> you don't but if every node does that a new comer won't be able to validate those old tx no ?
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1110 2013-09-05 22:11:39 <edcba> since nobody has the data anymore
1111 2013-09-05 22:11:43 <maaku> ... which is why there will be plenty of people running full nodes
1112 2013-09-05 22:12:07 <maaku> nobody is suggesting that every node prune
1113 2013-09-05 22:12:08 <gmaxwell> maaku: please don't use the word full node there.
1114 2013-09-05 22:12:14 <edcba> haha
1115 2013-09-05 22:12:20 <gmaxwell> edcba: they'll just get it from a node that has the data.
1116 2013-09-05 22:12:23 <maaku> gmaxwell: ?
1117 2013-09-05 22:12:36 <gmaxwell> maaku: a pruned node is a full node.
1118 2013-09-05 22:12:42 <maaku> i didn't claim that
1119 2013-09-05 22:12:49 <maaku> i was talking about full nodes
1120 2013-09-05 22:12:51 <edcba> ok i see i have it right i don't like pruning :)
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1124 2013-09-05 22:12:57 <gmaxwell> maaku: No, I'm stating a fact. A pruned node is a full node.
1125 2013-09-05 22:13:06 <gmaxwell> maaku: You perhaps meant "archive node"
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1127 2013-09-05 22:13:33 <edcba> a more central node than the others :p
1128 2013-09-05 22:13:35 <maaku> ok archive node
1129 2013-09-05 22:13:45 <gmaxwell> edcba: in any case, any new node is _required_ to go get the data from a node that has it— either an archive node that has all of it, or some pruned node that has a fraction of it.
1130 2013-09-05 22:14:07 <edcba> yes but i prefer when all nodes have the data than 0 :)
1131 2013-09-05 22:14:11 <gmaxwell> edcba: and every pruned node can just keep some fraction of the history.
1132 2013-09-05 22:14:33 <gmaxwell> edcba: pruned DOES NOT MEAN 0. If there is 0 then it becomes impossible to start a new node.
1133 2013-09-05 22:14:34 <edcba> random fractional pruning is better indeed
1134 2013-09-05 22:14:34 <maaku> edcba: i also want a unicorn and a 2-day work week
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1136 2013-09-05 22:15:18 <edcba> gmaxwell: not impossible if you give a "starter pack" with the client
1137 2013-09-05 22:15:39 <edcba> that's the maintenance thing i wouldn't like
1138 2013-09-05 22:15:53 <gmaxwell> edcba: that would be insecure. You could also run a client that sends its private keys to me. Many things are possible.
1139 2013-09-05 22:16:06 <gmaxwell> That doesn't make them wise or likely.
1140 2013-09-05 22:16:19 <edcba> not really insecure since you already trust the client code
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1142 2013-09-05 22:16:34 <gmaxwell> edcba: and I realize thats the "maintenance" thing you dislike, and I'm pointing out that you are misunderstanding pruning in that you think it even remotely implies that.
1143 2013-09-05 22:16:37 <edcba> just it has a bit more data than genesis
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1145 2013-09-05 22:16:55 <edcba> it theoritically implies that
1146 2013-09-05 22:16:56 <gmaxwell> edcba: no, you don't— you only trust the client code because it is transparent and you (and anyone else) can audit it completely.
1147 2013-09-05 22:17:06 <gmaxwell> No. It does not imply that.
1148 2013-09-05 22:17:12 <gmaxwell> Which is what I'm trying to tell you.
1149 2013-09-05 22:17:15 <edcba> if there is no archiving node
1150 2013-09-05 22:17:44 <maaku> edcba: come up with a reason why there wouldn't be an achive node, or you're just trolling
1151 2013-09-05 22:18:14 <edcba> i just don't like to add some external dependancy
1152 2013-09-05 22:18:20 <edcba> especially if it's not code
1153 2013-09-05 22:18:38 <edcba> i must trust someone running an archive node
1154 2013-09-05 22:18:41 <maaku> then you must hate bitcoin as is, because it is exactly the same
1155 2013-09-05 22:18:45 <edcba> no
1156 2013-09-05 22:18:49 <maaku> no, there is no trust in the archive node. zero
1157 2013-09-05 22:18:56 <gmaxwell> edcba: then you just get the data from other nodes, likewise if there is no bitcoin nodes today it doesn't work.
1158 2013-09-05 22:19:04 <edcba> ok 'trust' is not the work
1159 2013-09-05 22:19:06 <edcba> word
1160 2013-09-05 22:19:29 <edcba> i have to rely on someone providing a service that a normal bitcoin client doesn't
1161 2013-09-05 22:19:35 <edcba> that's SaaS model :)
1162 2013-09-05 22:19:53 <gmaxwell> maaku: I don't think we should _assume_ that there will be archive nodes— because, why would people run one if its very costly?—, but it can work without them.
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1165 2013-09-05 22:20:53 <maaku> gmaxwell: i'm saying that there are economic incentives for people who hold bitcoins or do business in bitcoins to make sure that an archiving apocolypse doesn't happen
1166 2013-09-05 22:21:24 <gmaxwell> maaku: perhaps, or they could tell people to use a webwallet... in any case, it doesn't matter because we don't even need to assume they exist (though they are helpful)
1167 2013-09-05 22:21:37 <edcba> ppl have economy incentives not to put all their data in cloud they still do it
1168 2013-09-05 22:22:01 <maaku> gmaxwell: the people running the webwallet (assuming they have a revenue stream) would have incentive to run an archive node
1169 2013-09-05 22:22:56 <edcba> ok see pruning may have some issues that's why i don't like it
1170 2013-09-05 22:23:04 <gmaxwell> maaku: I don't know about that, I think they have an incentive to making running your own node as costly as possible. But I think we're arguing an irrelevant point.
1171 2013-09-05 22:23:19 <gmaxwell> edcba: what are you talking about?
1172 2013-09-05 22:23:50 <edcba> i thought i made the point pruning may at least be a theoritical problem
1173 2013-09-05 22:23:59 <gmaxwell> edcba: no, you really didn't.
1174 2013-09-05 22:24:10 <edcba> ok i give up then :)
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1176 2013-09-05 22:24:20 <gmaxwell> maaku: there doesn't need to exist a single complete copy anywhere, so long is there is a distributed copy. E.g. each pruned node will keep some configurable fraction of the history... so you can go gather the distributed data you need.
1177 2013-09-05 22:24:53 <edcba> that just leads to more bandwidth used
1178 2013-09-05 22:25:02 <gmaxwell> edcba: uh. wtf?
1179 2013-09-05 22:25:13 <edcba> less memory = more bandwidth
1180 2013-09-05 22:25:22 <edcba> used by network
1181 2013-09-05 22:25:51 <gmaxwell> edcba: The bandwidth is the ~same. You need one copy of all the blocks to bootstrap, so you go fetch them. Upto some small overheads it doesn't matter if you fetch them from one peer or many.
1182 2013-09-05 22:25:55 <edcba> globally
1183 2013-09-05 22:26:00 <edcba> not for a given client
1184 2013-09-05 22:26:07 <gmaxwell> edcba: right, globally.
1185 2013-09-05 22:26:28 <edcba> you ought to think globally when you code a p2p client :/
1186 2013-09-05 22:26:32 <gmaxwell> edcba: to introduce a new node the global bandwidth used is whatever is required to give them the history
1187 2013-09-05 22:28:07 <gmaxwell> edcba: are you going to explain where your bandwidth argument is coming from?
1188 2013-09-05 22:30:05 <theymos> How possible is it that secp256k1's parameters were chosen to be particularly weak? It is a non-random curve. I always thought that choosing a Koblitz curve was a smart move, but some of this NSA hubbub is making me not so sure. Perhaps an OP_NOP should be used to add new algorithms.
1189 2013-09-05 22:30:47 <gmaxwell> theymos: the public doesn't know of a way in which these parameters could be weak.
1190 2013-09-05 22:31:15 <gmaxwell> I agree that it was a smart move.
1191 2013-09-05 22:31:51 <maaku> theymos: if you find a reason that the Koblitz curve could be weak, could I be co-author?
1192 2013-09-05 22:32:07 <theymos> I do find it hard to believe that a government agency could be competent enough to figure out something that all of academia doesn't know and then manage to keep it secret for years.
1193 2013-09-05 22:32:13 <gmaxwell> I also think— and have for a long time—  that we probably ought to add a secondary unrelated public key signature system, which would help remove any concerns.
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1195 2013-09-05 22:33:13 <gmaxwell> theymos: oh well, the "canonical" example is differential cryptanalysis in the DES sbox selection. ... but that was also a long time ago.  The NSA is one of the largest employers of mathmaticians in the world, so ... things are possible, hard to say how likely.
1196 2013-09-05 22:33:57 <maaku> gmaxwell: there's also the SHA-0 weakness, and "asymmetrical cryptography" (public-key) which we know the NSA had earlier
1197 2013-09-05 22:34:24 <maaku> actually it was GCHQ that came up with public key crypto
1198 2013-09-05 22:34:43 <gmaxwell> theymos: there are a couple of paths we could go for a CHECKSIG2 ... obviously we could fix a couple of silly nits and make the sighash flags more useful.
1199 2013-09-05 22:35:28 <edcba> theymos: differential analysis ?
1200 2013-09-05 22:35:46 <gmaxwell> theymos: one possibility would be implementing lamport signatures, which have the marking advantage of being strong against quantum computers. They're also insanely fast, and their security is simple and intutive. Downside is that they result is rather huge signatures.
1201 2013-09-05 22:36:06 <maaku> gmaxwell: any thoughts on SIGHASH modes beyond Alan's WITHINPUTVALUE ?
1202 2013-09-05 22:36:08 <theymos> Several very different algorithms could be supported by CHECKSIG2 so a need to fix a future weakness is less likely.
1203 2013-09-05 22:36:18 <theymos> gmaxwell: How big are the signatures?
1204 2013-09-05 22:36:50 <gmaxwell> theymos: with the best compression scheme I've been able to come up with— about 12kb for a 256 bit signature+pubkey.
1205 2013-09-05 22:36:57 <theymos> That's not so bad.
1206 2013-09-05 22:37:14 <gmaxwell> It's viable at least. Especially as a secondary "just in case/high security" option.
1207 2013-09-05 22:37:31 <gmaxwell> maaku: I have a more general vision.
1208 2013-09-05 22:38:03 <maaku> i'd love to hear it, or point to it if you've already written it up
1209 2013-09-05 22:38:09 <gmaxwell> maaku: I'd like to have a "signature stack" and then operations that push on the data you want covered under the signatures with tagged elements in the stack. So then you can just choose what is being added.
1210 2013-09-05 22:39:25 <gmaxwell> maaku: so if you want to, say, sign that there is an output to pubkey X, if and only if the output is >3 BTC you could do that. Achieving alan's with input value would be as simple as having the operation that pushes the inputs on able to also push their values.
1211 2013-09-05 22:39:50 <gmaxwell> maaku: and then you just sign the content of the signature stack.
1212 2013-09-05 22:40:22 <theymos> Perhaps the existing alt stack could be used for that? No one uses it for anything else.
1213 2013-09-05 22:40:25 <maaku> that makes sense, and then i assume you have a sighash opcode that pushes the signature hash on the stack
1214 2013-09-05 22:40:44 <maaku> theymos: i can think of one case specific to Freimarkets where we'd use them both side-by-side
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1216 2013-09-05 22:41:54 <gmaxwell> theymos: It could just be effectively internal to the signature scheme. All the the push operations could be part of the signature if you want.
1217 2013-09-05 22:43:48 <gmaxwell> In any case, having that would allow you to specify something like "I sign this 1BTC over to any transaction which pays at least 1 BTC to wikileaks".. or have things like SIGHASH_SINGLE that signe for N outputs (say a bounty and your change) instead of just one.
1218 2013-09-05 22:43:56 <gmaxwell> but thats an aside wrt cryptosystem.
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1220 2013-09-05 22:45:56 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ok he got the message
1221 2013-09-05 22:46:09 <theymos> Is Ed25519(?) mature enough to include in Bitcoin?
1222 2013-09-05 22:46:22 <gmaxwell> it is but I don't think its horribly desirable.
1223 2013-09-05 22:46:29 <theymos> Why?
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1226 2013-09-05 22:46:45 <gmaxwell> It's hardly faster than what we have now (with sipa's code) so the only protection it provides is parameter paranoia.
1227 2013-09-05 22:47:01 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc it doesn't require entropy for signing
1228 2013-09-05 22:47:08 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: nor does what we have now.
1229 2013-09-05 22:47:27 <gmaxwell> It doesn't require it the same way ECDSA can optional not require it.
1230 2013-09-05 22:47:29 <phantomcircuit> k doesn't have to be random?
1231 2013-09-05 22:47:42 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6979
1232 2013-09-05 22:47:53 GingerGeek[Away] has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1233 2013-09-05 22:47:54 <theymos> Ah, OK. Is there anything more conservative than ECDSA w/ secp256k1 but smaller than lamport signatures?
1234 2013-09-05 22:48:00 <gmaxwell> (which is what Ed25519 does)
1235 2013-09-05 22:48:20 <phantomcircuit> Deterministic DSA and ECDSA
1236 2013-09-05 22:48:23 <phantomcircuit> huh interesting
1237 2013-09-05 22:49:30 <gmaxwell> theymos: Conservative against what is the question.  E.g. larger ECDSA is more conservative than smaller... but if someone can break secp256k1 ... then perhaps they can break arbitrary EC-DLP? Or only smaller EC-DLP? if so how big?   ECC gets slow if your values become large too...
1238 2013-09-05 22:50:34 <gmaxwell> theymos: one possibility with lamport is that you could choose to construct the seralization so that the network could forget parts of the signature once the signature is burried in the chain. This would remove much of the storage costs... but it would be an interesting, if small, change to the security model.
1239 2013-09-05 22:51:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, so this is more or less k = HASH(message)
1240 2013-09-05 22:51:06 <phantomcircuit> interesting
1241 2013-09-05 22:51:29 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: H(message) would be insecure: K can't be known to the attacker, it's effectively H(secret key || message).
1242 2013-09-05 22:51:47 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1243 2013-09-05 22:52:02 <gmaxwell> theymos: lamport signatures can be fractionally verified. so.. e.g. you use the block hash of the block confirming a transaction to decide which part of the lamport signature you keep once the txn is— say 2016 blocks burried.
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1247 2013-09-05 22:52:20 <phantomcircuit> oh it's supplying the private key into the hash function also
1248 2013-09-05 22:52:22 <phantomcircuit> that's uh
1249 2013-09-05 22:52:24 <phantomcircuit> interesting
1250 2013-09-05 22:52:27 <edcba> http://www.johannes-bauer.com/compsci/ecc/ "But I don't trust NIST/SECG. What alternatives do I have?"
1251 2013-09-05 22:53:16 <gmaxwell> edcba: a problem with that thinking is that if they were even able to hide a back door then they have some powerful math that the public doesn't know about.
1252 2013-09-05 22:53:25 <gmaxwell> edcba: once you're assuming that... what can you trust?
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1254 2013-09-05 22:53:53 <gmaxwell> If we were going to have another signing system I don't think having another set of parameters for ecc of the same size is really all that useful.
1255 2013-09-05 22:54:54 <edcba> maybe that + another totally different cryptosystem then
1256 2013-09-05 22:54:58 <gmaxwell> (0) still weak against QC (no anti-fud factor) (1) still potentially weak against super duper math (2) might be even weaker against the same super duper math that attacks the existing secp256k1 (3) a bunch of extra security and performance critical code.
1257 2013-09-05 22:55:32 GingerGeek[Away] has joined
1258 2013-09-05 22:55:45 <gmaxwell> The reason I favor lamport is that it addresses all these concerns, the security risk of lamport is strictly less than a ECDSA system that uses the same hash function. .. and a fast implementation is trivial.
1259 2013-09-05 22:56:02 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
1260 2013-09-05 22:56:20 <gmaxwell> Arguments for other alternatives: other ECC systems can offer additional properties which would be useful to us. Such as:
1261 2013-09-05 22:56:41 <midnightmagic> That's Theodore T'So (the /dev/random guy) for those who might be curious, and this is the post where he's very happy about his past decisions re: /dev/random: https://plus.google.com/117091380454742934025/posts/SDcoemc9V3J  Theodore is also describing reproducible builds using rPath in that post. rPath appears to be dead though. :( SAS bought it and the site is gone.
1262 2013-09-05 22:57:38 <tgs3> midnightmagic: we are working on reproducible  (for new most secure linux distribution + computer with preinstalled tor bitcoin etc) in #mempo (just started)
1263 2013-09-05 22:57:54 <gmaxwell> Scalable multisignature: Want to have 501 of 1000 people sign something?  There are cryptosystems that can do this.  Lamport can scalable support 2 of 2 or 2 of 3 with some security reduction.. but not thousands.
1264 2013-09-05 22:58:03 <tgs3> for debian faketime + using same build path length helps
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1267 2013-09-05 22:58:50 <gmaxwell> Ring signatures:  Signed by one of {x,y,z}, but no one can tell who ... can be used for privacy improving constructions.. no way to do this with plain lamport.
1268 2013-09-05 22:59:33 <gmaxwell> Blinded signatures:  Signed by X but X can't later tell which signature of his is which.  Can be used for privacy improving constructions. and again no way to do this with plain lamport.
1269 2013-09-05 23:01:33 <theymos> I feel like fractional verification wouldn't be much better than relying on UTXO trees (which is pretty good, but not as good as a real full node). You still kind of have to trust miners for history that you didn't witness, even if subverting the signatures is very difficult.
1270 2013-09-05 23:03:06 <gmaxwell> theymos: All our public signature systems only have computational hardness: at best 'subverting the signatures is very difficult'... so there is perhaps some room to ask how secure is our target.
1271 2013-09-05 23:03:21 <gmaxwell> theymos: though I agree with you.. though there are questions about degree.
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1273 2013-09-05 23:04:16 <gmaxwell> theymos: I'm more than a little frustrated by the density of people in our community who don't think carefully about this stuff .. who think that we already depend on miners for verification, and even that doing so would be viable at all.  Makes it kind of hard to have a sophicated discussion about possible tradeoffs.
1274 2013-09-05 23:04:46 <theymos> I actually think that it's secure enough for pretty much everyone to use UTXO trees, perhaps with the "proof of rule-breaking" that you've mentioned before. So I'm not so worried about scriptsig size. It does suck that we wouldn't be able to do those cool crypto things with lamport signatures.
1275 2013-09-05 23:05:26 <gmaxwell> well, as far as we know we can't do them with our current signatures either— so no loss except perhaps the loss of a potential gain.
1276 2013-09-05 23:05:50 <gmaxwell> Esp the scalable multisigning would be pretty useful. :(
1277 2013-09-05 23:05:51 <gavinandresen> Good morning everybody!  Good morning NSA eavesdroppers!
1278 2013-09-05 23:06:13 <theymos> Yeah, Bitcoin is especially beautiful because it's *not* a majority rule of miners, but a consensus of individuals. It's a shame that so many people miss this.
1279 2013-09-05 23:06:40 <gmaxwell> "Good morning sun" "Good morning cat" "Good morning inhuman surveillance apparatus"
1280 2013-09-05 23:06:41 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, lol
1281 2013-09-05 23:10:11 <phantomcircuit> lol poor david johnston
1282 2013-09-05 23:10:28 <gmaxwell> theymos: regardless, I'd still prefer to structure the signatures to enable that kind of fractional storage, even if we never were to go that route.
1283 2013-09-05 23:10:28 <phantomcircuit> if there really isn't a backdoor he must be super pissed
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1285 2013-09-05 23:12:44 <phantomcircuit> huh
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1287 2013-09-05 23:13:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i wonder if a broadcast style network in which various peers where selected entirely at random (ie they're not running the software at all) could be used to hide the true destination of normal udp traffic
1288 2013-09-05 23:13:52 <phantomcircuit> (combined of course with a mixing network)
1289 2013-09-05 23:13:57 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit:  it could, but it would be very inefficient.
1290 2013-09-05 23:14:03 <gmaxwell> and would tend to piss people off. :P
1291 2013-09-05 23:14:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it would also be very hard to filter
1292 2013-09-05 23:14:16 <phantomcircuit> s/filter/analyze/
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1294 2013-09-05 23:14:29 <phantomcircuit> the sheer magnitude of possible conversations would be overwhelming
1295 2013-09-05 23:14:56 <edcba> interesting
1296 2013-09-05 23:15:18 <edcba> not overwhelming for a computer
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1299 2013-09-05 23:15:44 <edcba> but sending packets at random is still fun
1300 2013-09-05 23:15:49 <phantomcircuit> edcba, actually i meant that the algorithms to try and determine who you are really trying to talk to likely would be overwhelmed by the number of possible conversations
1301 2013-09-05 23:16:24 <edcba> only random packets sender will exchange
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1303 2013-09-05 23:16:39 <edcba> now you need another point to distribute
1304 2013-09-05 23:16:42 <edcba> like irc
1305 2013-09-05 23:16:43 <phantomcircuit> edcba, you could include a large swath of valid mixers
1306 2013-09-05 23:16:54 <phantomcircuit> they'll get the message and in all likelyhood simply drop it
1307 2013-09-05 23:16:57 <edcba> or tor
1308 2013-09-05 23:17:13 <edcba> but the real problem is timing
1309 2013-09-05 23:17:22 <phantomcircuit> but now you have a model where instead of needing timing data for 3 jurisdictions you need it for more or less all of them
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1312 2013-09-05 23:20:40 <theymos> GnuNet works kind of like that, though it doesn't talk to random IPs. Its security is built all on plausible deniability, with a lot of padding, dummy messages, etc. This is a nicely different strategy from Tor/I2P/Freenet. The software isn't great, though.
1313 2013-09-05 23:21:23 <phantomcircuit> theymos, "isn't great"
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1315 2013-09-05 23:21:25 <phantomcircuit> :)
1316 2013-09-05 23:22:26 <gmaxwell> bitcoin transaction transmission makes a great pratical argument for building a high latency private message relay network... except for the fact that there are so many privacy problems before you even get to that, using that to hide your transaction origin is currently somewhat pointless.
1317 2013-09-05 23:23:53 <edcba> yeah identity hiding is not really the main selling point of bitcoin
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1320 2013-09-05 23:24:20 <edcba> or i mean it should not lol
1321 2013-09-05 23:24:21 <upb> then what is, jews?
1322 2013-09-05 23:24:33 <edcba> haha
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1324 2013-09-05 23:24:50 <gmaxwell> but bitcoin is unusual in that it produces very small messages which are pretty valuable.
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1326 2013-09-05 23:26:07 <edcba> a bit like guano
1327 2013-09-05 23:26:46 <midnightmagic> private messaging network + sync'd simultaneous timed release into the main bitcoin network?
1328 2013-09-05 23:28:17 <edcba> yes but i guess it would be better in another software than bitcoin :)
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