1 2013-09-08 00:05:22 <warren> Luke-Jr: I have more additions on top of your db4 detection patch
   2 2013-09-08 00:05:33 <warren> Luke-Jr: should I wait until your commit is added then do my own PR?
   3 2013-09-08 00:06:56 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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   5 2013-09-08 00:15:17 <warren> Luke-Jr: sent pull request to your autoconf branch
   6 2013-09-08 00:20:36 <Luke-Jr> warren: huh? Fedora puts headers in /usr/include/libdb4 ?
   7 2013-09-08 00:21:07 <warren> Luke-Jr: yes
   8 2013-09-08 00:21:14 <warren> Luke-Jr: for years now
   9 2013-09-08 00:21:32 <Luke-Jr> ugly. maybe I should generate that list in a for loop or two :/
  10 2013-09-08 00:21:52 <warren> I found more errors
  11 2013-09-08 00:23:12 <warren> older versions of Fedora put it into /usr/include/db4
  12 2013-09-08 00:23:51 <warren> checking if qt should be enabled... configure: error: "qt support requested but lrelease was not found. use --without-qt"
  13 2013-09-08 00:24:22 <warren> Fedora calls it lrelease-qt4
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  20 2013-09-08 00:38:38 <Luke-Jr> warren: k, will check for that too..
  21 2013-09-08 00:39:09 <warren> Luke-Jr: is qt5 becoming standard?
  22 2013-09-08 00:39:42 <Luke-Jr> warren: meaning?
  23 2013-09-08 00:40:32 <warren> Luke-Jr: is gitian moving from qt4 to qt5?
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  27 2013-09-08 00:45:56 <warren> /usr/include/features.h:330:4: warning: #warning _FORTIFY_SOURCE requires compiling with optimization (-O) [-Wcpp]
  28 2013-09-08 00:45:56 <warren>  #  warning _FORTIFY_SOURCE requires compiling with optimization (-O)
  29 2013-09-08 00:46:02 <warren> cfields: hmm, it doesn't build with any -O anymore?
  30 2013-09-08 00:52:13 Nesetalis has joined
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  33 2013-09-08 00:54:11 <warren> /usr/bin/ld: leveldb/libleveldb.a(db_impl.o): relocation R_X86_64_32S against `_ZTVN7leveldb6DBImplE' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
  34 2013-09-08 00:54:30 malaimo has joined
  35 2013-09-08 00:54:31 <warren> Luke-Jr: please add lrelease-qt5 too
  36 2013-09-08 00:55:13 <warren> cfields: <warren> /usr/bin/ld: leveldb/libleveldb.a(db_impl.o): relocation R_X86_64_32S against `_ZTVN7leveldb6DBImplE' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
  37 2013-09-08 00:55:16 <warren> cfields: on fedora
  38 2013-09-08 00:56:53 <jgarzik> warren, I don't get that
  39 2013-09-08 00:57:09 <jgarzik> warren, well  more correctly, I saw that then fixed it on F19
  40 2013-09-08 00:57:17 <jgarzik> fixed without changing source code.
  41 2013-09-08 00:57:22 * jgarzik scratches his head for the solution
  42 2013-09-08 00:58:00 <jgarzik> warren, does it build for you with 'make distclean" + ./configure --without-qt ?
  43 2013-09-08 00:58:16 * warren tries
  44 2013-09-08 00:59:07 <warren> jgarzik: what about the FORTIFY_SOURCE warning?  it seems to build without any -O
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  47 2013-09-08 00:59:58 <warren> lots of this warning, worthwhile to clean up?  json/json_spirit_writer_template.h:31:50: warning: typedef ‘Char_type’ locally defined but not used [-Wunused-local-typedefs]
  48 2013-09-08 01:00:11 <jgarzik> warren, yeah I see that last warning too
  49 2013-09-08 01:00:29 Unsound_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  50 2013-09-08 01:00:32 <jgarzik> warren, RE fortify…  I build with "CXXFLAGS=-O2 -Wall -g ./configure"
  51 2013-09-08 01:00:36 <jgarzik> don't see that warning
  52 2013-09-08 01:00:45 <warren> /usr/include/features.h:330:4: warning: #warning _FORTIFY_SOURCE requires compiling with optimization (-O) [-Wcpp]
  53 2013-09-08 01:00:45 <warren>  #  warning _FORTIFY_SOURCE requires compiling with optimization (-O)
  54 2013-09-08 01:01:02 <warren> jgarzik: shouldn't default ./configure have sane defaults?  it has no hardening and no optimization by default
  55 2013-09-08 01:01:03 <warren> ?
  56 2013-09-08 01:01:21 <jgarzik> warren, AFAIK the default is -O2 -g
  57 2013-09-08 01:01:25 <warren> not here
  58 2013-09-08 01:01:45 <warren> I just did "./configure" as that's what most people will do.
  59 2013-09-08 01:01:47 <jgarzik> warren, can you pastebin "./configure --without-qt && make V=1" ?
  60 2013-09-08 01:02:05 <warren> i'm doing a build without V=1 now
  61 2013-09-08 01:02:09 <warren> cancel it?
  62 2013-09-08 01:02:17 <jgarzik> warren, V=1 gives make output
  63 2013-09-08 01:02:23 <warren> canceling
  64 2013-09-08 01:02:24 <jgarzik> baby bedtime, bbi 60min
  65 2013-09-08 01:02:47 <warren> jgarzik: build success
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  67 2013-09-08 01:05:15 <warren> jgarzik: confirmed, plain "./configure" lacks -O or -Wall
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  71 2013-09-08 01:11:22 <warren> jgarzik: confirmed, plain "./configure" lacks -O or -g
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  73 2013-09-08 01:13:31 <Luke-Jr> warren: I'll hold off on lrelease-qt5, as I'm not sure Qt5 support is complete yet
  74 2013-09-08 01:13:54 <Luke-Jr> unless you know for sure it works
  75 2013-09-08 01:15:53 <warren> Luke-Jr: it works
  76 2013-09-08 01:16:05 <warren> Luke-Jr: although it should prefer qt4 if that's what gitian uses
  77 2013-09-08 01:16:19 <warren> Luke-Jr: if gitian switches to qt5 then prefer qt5
  78 2013-09-08 01:16:19 <Luke-Jr> warren: how's rcc?
  79 2013-09-08 01:16:25 <Luke-Jr> and moc etc?
  80 2013-09-08 01:16:25 <warren> rcc?
  81 2013-09-08 01:16:31 <Luke-Jr> the other Qt programs
  82 2013-09-08 01:16:33 <warren> I don't know how qt works.
  83 2013-09-08 01:16:41 <Luke-Jr> moc uic rcc lrelease
  84 2013-09-08 01:17:09 <Luke-Jr> warren: if you change configure.ac to only use the qt5 variants, does it build? :p
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  86 2013-09-08 01:17:45 <warren> Luke-Jr: dunno
  87 2013-09-08 01:17:49 <Luke-Jr> warren: try it?
  88 2013-09-08 01:17:50 <warren> trying
  89 2013-09-08 01:17:58 <warren> i'm doing the test build for jgarzik now
  90 2013-09-08 01:17:59 <Luke-Jr> Gentoo has no Qt 5 available yet, even in unstable :/
  91 2013-09-08 01:18:25 <warren> Luke-Jr: uic-qt4 uic-qt5 rcc rcc-qt5
  92 2013-09-08 01:18:39 <warren> qmake-qt4 qmake-qt5
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  97 2013-09-08 01:26:30 <Luke-Jr> Can anyone confirm gitian determinism? http://codepad.org/RvseDiyt
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  99 2013-09-08 01:28:10 <warren> Luke-Jr: can you confirm this is not working? <jgarzik> warren, AFAIK the default is -O2 -g
 100 2013-09-08 01:28:15 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'm testing qt5 build now
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 104 2013-09-08 01:32:33 <Luke-Jr> default is "-g -ggdb" with configure --enable-debug and "-O2" otherwise
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 106 2013-09-08 01:32:55 <warren> Luke-Jr: definitely not getting -O2 default here.
 107 2013-09-08 01:33:21 <Luke-Jr> --enable-debug is also default
 108 2013-09-08 01:33:49 <warren> oh
 109 2013-09-08 01:34:11 <warren> json/json_spirit_writer_template.h: In function ‘String_type json_spirit::non_printable_to_string(unsigned int)’:
 110 2013-09-08 01:34:11 <warren> json/json_spirit_writer_template.h:31:50: warning: typedef ‘Char_type’ locally defined but not used [-Wunused-local-typedefs]
 111 2013-09-08 01:34:11 <warren>          typedef typename String_type::value_type Char_type;
 112 2013-09-08 01:34:16 <warren> are we ever going to get rid of this warning?
 113 2013-09-08 01:34:33 Coincidental has joined
 114 2013-09-08 01:35:27 <gavinandresen> who is "we" ?
 115 2013-09-08 01:35:41 <warren> the project
 116 2013-09-08 01:35:58 <gavinandresen> Ok, then no, "the project" will never spontaneously get rid of that warning.
 117 2013-09-08 01:36:13 <gavinandresen> if it bugs you, then fix it.
 118 2013-09-08 01:36:42 normanrichards has joined
 119 2013-09-08 01:36:56 <warren> /usr/bin/ccache g++ -I. -I./include -pthread -DOS_LINUX -DLEVELDB_PLATFORM_POSIX -g -ggdb -Wall -Wextra -Wformat -Wformat-security -Wno-unused-parameter  -Wstack-protector -fPIE -fno-stack-protector -fstack-protector-all -DBOOST_SPIRIT_THREADSAFE -DHAVE_BUILD_INFO  -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
 120 2013-09-08 01:37:16 <gavinandresen> (or, even better, send a patch upstream to json_spirit to fix it)
 121 2013-09-08 01:37:19 <warren> not sure why it has "-fno-stack-protector"
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 123 2013-09-08 01:39:57 <warren> Luke-Jr: build fails with qt5 during tests, it seems tests pulls in qt4 while everything else was qt5
 124 2013-09-08 01:40:16 <Luke-Jr> warren: hmm, better leave Qt5 support for another pullreq then
 125 2013-09-08 01:40:42 <warren> yeah
 126 2013-09-08 01:40:49 <warren> Luke-Jr: althoug please include the -qt4 variants
 127 2013-09-08 01:41:16 <warren> Luke-Jr: qt5 in the client is working fine though
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 131 2013-09-08 01:45:46 <warren> Luke-Jr: eh, just put the -qt4 variants before -qt5 and it works just fine for now.
 132 2013-09-08 01:45:50 lle has joined
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 134 2013-09-08 01:46:08 <warren> wooo ccache
 135 2013-09-08 01:47:16 <Luke-Jr> warren: that's because it's not using the -qt5 :p
 136 2013-09-08 01:47:39 <warren> Luke-Jr: that's fine for now, at least someone will notice the test build needs fixing this way.
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 141 2013-09-08 01:56:08 <warren> hmm
 142 2013-09-08 01:56:14 <warren> other problems with build
 143 2013-09-08 01:56:37 <warren> bitcoind is fine.  bitcoin-qt can't find libraries.
 144 2013-09-08 01:58:31 eoss has joined
 145 2013-09-08 01:58:50 <warren> cfields: Luke-Jr jgarzik: http://paste.mhanne.net/p/36131cca7fb9ba114a7e65a4ed15c51d52364158?hl=text
 146 2013-09-08 01:59:03 <warren> [warren@localhost bitcoin]$ ./bitcoin-qt -testnet
 147 2013-09-08 01:59:04 <warren> ./bitcoin-qt: error while loading shared libraries: libboost_system-mt.so.1.50.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
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 151 2013-09-08 02:06:10 <warren> Luke-Jr: https://togami.com/~warren/temp/fedora-qt4-qt5.patch
 152 2013-09-08 02:06:14 <warren> Luke-Jr: please squash this in too
 153 2013-09-08 02:06:18 <warren> Luke-Jr: no drawback
 154 2013-09-08 02:07:02 <warren> bbl
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 156 2013-09-08 02:10:02 <Luke-Jr> warren: didn't you just say it wouldn't build?
 157 2013-09-08 02:13:40 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 159 2013-09-08 02:14:40 <Luke-Jr> did cfields leave the Mac gitian stuff anywhere to play with?
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 163 2013-09-08 02:29:57 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I don't see a way to skip building bitcoind :/
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 165 2013-09-08 02:43:34 <warren> Luke-Jr: it builds
 166 2013-09-08 02:43:52 <warren> Luke-Jr: without that it won't build
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 168 2013-09-08 02:44:00 <Luke-Jr> warren: ?
 169 2013-09-08 02:44:07 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 170 2013-09-08 02:44:10 <warren> Luke-Jr: https://togami.com/~warren/temp/fedora-qt4-qt5.patch
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 172 2013-09-08 02:44:29 <Luke-Jr> warren: to do a valid test, you must list ONLY the *-qt5 variants
 173 2013-09-08 02:44:31 <warren> Luke-Jr: the remaining problems need to be solved elsewhere, this part is correct
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 175 2013-09-08 02:45:45 <Luke-Jr> it's not correct until Qt5 is complete
 176 2013-09-08 02:45:52 <Luke-Jr> ie, everything else must work first
 177 2013-09-08 02:45:59 <warren> Luke-Jr: by that metric, qt4 isn't complete either
 178 2013-09-08 02:46:08 <Luke-Jr> …
 179 2013-09-08 02:46:12 <warren> Luke-Jr: just add this change, it will be needed eventually
 180 2013-09-08 02:46:52 <warren> Luke-Jr: the qt4 build with that is fine (except for the boost problem which has nothing to do with it)
 181 2013-09-08 02:46:53 <Luke-Jr> warren: if the build fails with *-qt5, then configure is required to fail upfront
 182 2013-09-08 02:47:20 <warren> Luke-Jr: that change will be needed eventually, and without it, nobody else will notice the -qt5 failure
 183 2013-09-08 02:47:41 <Luke-Jr> warren: the job of configure includes failing early if things are not proper
 184 2013-09-08 02:48:03 <Luke-Jr> if it fails to fail, it is a bug
 185 2013-09-08 02:48:03 <warren> Luke-Jr: fine, include the qt4 part now?
 186 2013-09-08 02:48:06 <Luke-Jr> I did
 187 2013-09-08 02:48:24 <warren> I don't see it in your commits
 188 2013-09-08 02:48:42 <warren> Luke-Jr: there is no rcc-qt4
 189 2013-09-08 02:49:03 <warren> at least not here
 190 2013-09-08 02:49:11 <Luke-Jr> warren: doesn't hurt to check
 191 2013-09-08 02:49:55 <warren> hmm, at least one OS has rcc-qt4
 192 2013-09-08 02:49:57 <warren> ok fine
 193 2013-09-08 02:50:11 <warren> to fix qt5 will require fixing something in the tests
 194 2013-09-08 02:50:23 <warren> Luke-Jr: qt5 build and tests works fine if I remove qt4
 195 2013-09-08 02:50:39 <warren> (no qt4 headers or build tools)
 196 2013-09-08 02:51:06 <Luke-Jr> hmm, interesting
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 204 2013-09-08 03:02:12 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: so I had an interesting though about improving security in your shared wallet / network isolation attack model.
 205 2013-09-08 03:02:26 fant has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
 206 2013-09-08 03:02:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: and the idea is this: agressively prefer to spend _new_ coins (perhaps dependant on how slow the blockchain has been)
 207 2013-09-08 03:02:47 <warren> Luke-Jr: better to just add the -qt5 variants now so it can be used and tested
 208 2013-09-08 03:03:04 <warren> bbl dinner
 209 2013-09-08 03:03:42 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: e.g. someone isolates you and feeds you six confirms, if you prefer to spend newly recieved coins, e.g. ones with ... 6 confirms, you're far more likely to give that person his coins back.
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 218 2013-09-08 03:16:07 <helo> it's nice that, depite these situations never occurring afaact, they're given some thought :)
 219 2013-09-08 03:17:20 <gmaxwell> they only don't occur until they do, and if you don't think about them in advance your system doesn't survive the first incident.
 220 2013-09-08 03:17:38 <gmaxwell> Attacks are only rare until they're not. :)
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 247 2013-09-08 04:33:00 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm that would be a complete 180 on the current algorithm
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 250 2013-09-08 04:33:33 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well not quite, it does cutoff at 6 now. So, e.g. trying at 6 only wouldn't be a total 180.
 251 2013-09-08 04:36:33 gry has joined
 252 2013-09-08 04:38:04 <helo> props on the autotools build changes
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 262 2013-09-08 05:20:50 <jgarzik> helo, thanks to cfields
 263 2013-09-08 05:29:31 ThomasV has joined
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 265 2013-09-08 05:41:56 <jgarzik> John Gilmore, on NSA games while he worked on IPSEC: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg12325.html
 266 2013-09-08 05:43:58 <gmaxwell> More smoking than gun there, sadly.
 267 2013-09-08 05:44:38 <gmaxwell> There are all kinds of other stupid politics that explain IPSEC. SSL has a messed up history too.
 268 2013-09-08 05:45:02 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, what's more disturbing is the names they gave the programs...
 269 2013-09-08 05:45:07 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 270 2013-09-08 05:45:49 <phantomcircuit> "hey guys i know lets name our program after a major civil war battle"
 271 2013-09-08 05:46:06 <phantomcircuit> :/
 272 2013-09-08 05:46:10 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: IIRC all NSA codenames come sequentially out of a book of codenames and are unrelated to the projects.
 273 2013-09-08 05:46:23 <gmaxwell> (in order to prevent the codenames leaking information about the projects)
 274 2013-09-08 05:46:39 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that's what they want you to think
 275 2013-09-08 05:46:48 <phantomcircuit> </paranoia>
 276 2013-09-08 05:47:53 <gmaxwell> If you've not read "The Puzzle Palace", I highly recommend it.. well at least the first half of it. The later half is bureaucratic history, and Foo begat Bar, who begat Baz who was beheded but not before giving birth to Blat.. kinda boring.
 277 2013-09-08 05:47:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's interesting to me that even if ecdsa was massively broken it would likely still be difficult to forge a valid spend input
 278 2013-09-08 05:48:21 <jgarzik> well
 279 2013-09-08 05:48:26 <phantomcircuit> (if you dont reuse addresses)
 280 2013-09-08 05:48:29 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: Yea, well, except a lot of users really heavily reuse addresses.. sooo.
 281 2013-09-08 05:48:29 <jgarzik> it just means the NSA breaks SatoshiDICE
 282 2013-09-08 05:48:30 <jgarzik> :)
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 284 2013-09-08 05:48:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it really shows how paranoid satoshi was in constructing things
 285 2013-09-08 05:49:03 <phantomcircuit> horray paranoia
 286 2013-09-08 05:49:42 <gmaxwell> I like the key hashing as a security feature, but I think satoshi was actually not thinking of it that way... otherwise the blocks wouldn't have been pay to pubkey.
 287 2013-09-08 05:49:49 <jgarzik> hmmm, p2sh destination script address will be the same as long as the txout script containing pubkeyhash address XYZ remains unchanged, correct?
 288 2013-09-08 05:49:53 <gmaxwell> (and IP transactions were also pay to pubkey)
 289 2013-09-08 05:50:08 <jgarzik> what if there was a nonce in there, to stir things, creating multiple p2sh addresses for one bitcoin address
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 291 2013-09-08 05:50:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yes, you could do that, but: you'd have to remember the nonces (well, easy if they're a counter) and once you spend it would be trivially linkable by anyone.
 292 2013-09-08 05:51:01 <gmaxwell> Better to just use BIP32 to get a sequence of pubkeys, and thats not even linkable post spending.
 293 2013-09-08 05:51:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the nonce could be derived from the private key and the input transaction
 294 2013-09-08 05:51:35 Neozonz has joined
 295 2013-09-08 05:51:38 <warren> gmaxwell: you still have fedora?
 296 2013-09-08 05:51:42 <jgarzik> the sense I got at the conference from implementers is that people like BIP32, but don't fully trust it yet
 297 2013-09-08 05:51:42 <gmaxwell> warren: sure.
 298 2013-09-08 05:51:54 <warren> gmaxwell: you run into the boost linking problem with autotools master?
 299 2013-09-08 05:52:00 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, which is certainly a good thing
 300 2013-09-08 05:52:12 <jgarzik> i.e. don't trust that additional, surprising attack surfaces are not lurking
 301 2013-09-08 05:52:14 <gmaxwell> warren: haven't tried since it was merged. uh does the autotools not correctly link boost-mt?
 302 2013-09-08 05:52:20 <jgarzik> current scheme is well understood
 303 2013-09-08 05:52:28 JoeMattie has joined
 304 2013-09-08 05:52:36 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: funny you say that, because bitcoin-qt appears to be the only implementor not running headlong into it.
 305 2013-09-08 05:52:52 <jgarzik> HD asks us to trust not just one derivation is secure (priv -> pub), but multiple derivations
 306 2013-09-08 05:52:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, did you look at the whole tor 1024 rsa key thing
 307 2013-09-08 05:52:55 <warren> gmaxwell: bitcoind is fine, bitcoin-qt builds ... but ....http://paste.mhanne.net/p/36131cca7fb9ba114a7e65a4ed15c51d52364158?hl=text
 308 2013-09-08 05:53:02 <phantomcircuit> im not sure those keys are used long enough for being cracked to matter
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 310 2013-09-08 05:53:40 <warren> phantomcircuit: enough to decrypt payload later though?
 311 2013-09-08 05:53:56 <phantomcircuit> also i know that various tools designed to use tor for purposes which do not require strong anonymity are based on old forks
 312 2013-09-08 05:54:02 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 313 2013-09-08 05:54:28 <phantomcircuit> warren, not if they're using ephemeral diffie hellman
 314 2013-09-08 05:54:45 guruvan has joined
 315 2013-09-08 05:54:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and yet it appears everything except bitcoin-qt is rushing into it. (I share this concern, and I was mildly pissed when armory and electrum deployed it only a couple months after my post describing that homorphism, though it's now had a lot of cryptographers look at it.)
 316 2013-09-08 05:55:58 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I know that tor uses 1024 bit rsa and 1024 bit dh and are in the slow process of migrating to ECC.
 317 2013-09-08 05:56:46 <jgarzik> EFF should not recommend Tor until they fix packet size/timing exposure problems </OT rant>
 318 2013-09-08 05:57:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Timing/confirmation attacks cannot be fixed in a realtime anonymity network, they're fundimental.
 319 2013-09-08 05:57:43 <gmaxwell> whats better? nothing at all? :P
 320 2013-09-08 05:57:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, static packet size and timing
 321 2013-09-08 05:58:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: tor has a static cell size (512 bytes).
 322 2013-09-08 05:58:37 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, except not really because of padding
 323 2013-09-08 05:58:40 <gmaxwell> But you can only hide so much information at a certian cost.
 324 2013-09-08 05:58:54 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, you can run real time apps pretty much just fine, with caveats:  you use maximum bandwidth at all times, and occasionally latency bites you, if timing is chosen poorly
 325 2013-09-08 05:59:22 <jgarzik> yeah, Tor padding is a joke
 326 2013-09-08 05:59:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sadly, no. even "send CBR" doesn't work because of confirmation attacks.  You _interrupt_ the thing in question and now you know who is talking to it.
 327 2013-09-08 06:00:03 <gmaxwell> (thats called a confirmation attack, and someone from the tor project has told me that it's even been used to arrest people)
 328 2013-09-08 06:00:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, which is why you have an irc bouncer you pay for with bitcoins
 329 2013-09-08 06:00:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I agree that attack is fundamental
 330 2013-09-08 06:00:18 <warren> gmaxwell: any idea what happened with that bitcoin-qt?  Try master + https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2979
 331 2013-09-08 06:00:19 <phantomcircuit> :)
 332 2013-09-08 06:00:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, however without interference, passive observation can be made to glean much less than current Tor
 333 2013-09-08 06:00:43 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i assume they're talking about jeremy hammond
 334 2013-09-08 06:00:54 <jgarzik> interruption is a common technique
 335 2013-09-08 06:00:54 <phantomcircuit> (too be fair he would have ended up arrested regardless)
 336 2013-09-08 06:01:33 <jgarzik> interruption has been used in the past for unrelated reasons, by hackers forcing a [for example] wireless renegotiation, and exploiting a weakness therein
 337 2013-09-08 06:02:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there are schemes which make those attacks far less useful, but they break realtimeness.
 338 2013-09-08 06:02:04 <jgarzik> but interrupt alerts the subject
 339 2013-09-08 06:02:12 <jgarzik> and so that is often avoided
 340 2013-09-08 06:02:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: in a reattime system you don't alert the subject if the interruption is only on the same order of magnitude as the typical latency.
 341 2013-09-08 06:02:44 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it's fairly easy to convince people that the underlying network is unreliable
 342 2013-09-08 06:03:10 <gmaxwell> e.g. you do multiple bursts of interuption for 100ms... no tor user is going to notice that, but you rapidly get confirmation.
 343 2013-09-08 06:03:30 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, that varies wildly depending on protocol used, and method of interruption
 344 2013-09-08 06:03:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I agree for some cases, yes
 345 2013-09-08 06:03:46 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, heh
 346 2013-09-08 06:04:03 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, for example
 347 2013-09-08 06:04:08 <phantomcircuit> freenode is super unreliable
 348 2013-09-08 06:04:19 <phantomcircuit> after years of being basically always online
 349 2013-09-08 06:04:21 <phantomcircuit> wait
 350 2013-09-08 06:04:25 * phantomcircuit looks around suspiciously
 351 2013-09-08 06:05:24 <warren> hmm, is there a git command that will replay all of these commits in one command?  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2979#commits-pushed-11205fa
 352 2013-09-08 06:05:43 <warren> I have all of the pull requests available to cherry-pick by git hash ...
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 361 2013-09-08 06:22:58 <phantomcircuit> i played eve today
 362 2013-09-08 06:23:00 <phantomcircuit> mistake
 363 2013-09-08 06:23:55 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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 365 2013-09-08 06:24:42 <warren> phantomcircuit: another soon-to-be regulated virtual currency
 366 2013-09-08 06:30:52 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 369 2013-09-08 06:45:33 <gmaxwell> ... bitcoin gambling site using the merkle root of a future block to determine their winner.
 370 2013-09-08 06:45:41 lle has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 371 2013-09-08 06:47:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: prepare for extra random nonces!
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 373 2013-09-08 06:53:06 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
 374 2013-09-08 06:56:47 <warren> [warren@localhost bitcoin]$ ./bitcoin-qt -testnet
 375 2013-09-08 06:56:47 <warren> ./bitcoin-qt: error while loading shared libraries: libboost_system-mt.so.1.50.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
 376 2013-09-08 06:56:55 <warren> system has only libboost_system-mt.so.1.53.0
 377 2013-09-08 06:57:19 * warren digs around
 378 2013-09-08 06:58:32 <gmaxwell> warren: I don't know how it would have finished building unless it could find it.
 379 2013-09-08 06:58:46 <gmaxwell> maybe it didn't and is picking up an old bin in your directory?
 380 2013-09-08 06:58:50 coingenuity2 has joined
 381 2013-09-08 06:59:27 <warren> I don't have anything called libboost_system-mt.so.1.50.0 on my entire filesystem
 382 2013-09-08 06:59:34 <warren> doing a find across it just to be sure
 383 2013-09-08 07:00:51 <warren> yup, nothing
 384 2013-09-08 07:01:34 <gmaxwell> F19 is 1.53.
 385 2013-09-08 07:01:43 <warren> yup. this is a fresh install of Fedora 19.
 386 2013-09-08 07:02:32 <warren> gmaxwell: src/bitcoind links properly to 1.53
 387 2013-09-08 07:02:36 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 388 2013-09-08 07:03:39 <gmaxwell> what is the date on your qt binary? :P
 389 2013-09-08 07:04:07 avantgeek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 390 2013-09-08 07:04:15 <warren> o_O.  OK, I'm an idiot.
 391 2013-09-08 07:05:16 <warren> I didn't expect "make distclean" would fail to remove things like that.
 392 2013-09-08 07:06:39 <warren> gmaxwell: should it remove the old leveldb.a and bitcoind so folks aren't confused by the one-time changes?  everyone is going to run into both of those problems and report a bug.
 393 2013-09-08 07:07:18 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 395 2013-09-08 07:09:54 <gmaxwell> the deps logic should be smart enough to figure out those files are too old.. not sure why it didn't.
 396 2013-09-08 07:10:39 <warren> it isn't for leveldb.a, you need to wipe it once
 397 2013-09-08 07:10:46 <warren> and the target is now src/qt/bitcoin-qt
 398 2013-09-08 07:11:33 <sipa> yeah i had to delete libleveldb.a as well
 399 2013-09-08 07:11:51 <gmaxwell> hm. if thats happening it may get left around if files change.
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 423 2013-09-08 08:16:37 <warren> jgarzik: I noticed you used "Reported-by:" in a commit.  That looks handy.  Is there a list of typical tags like that?
 424 2013-09-08 08:21:43 ThomasV has joined
 425 2013-09-08 08:24:05 <sipa> there's Signed-of-by
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 430 2013-09-08 08:30:54 oru has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 431 2013-09-08 08:31:11 <warren> sipa: if someone squashes a commit or a fix of some sort into another commit, is there a tag to give credit to them?
 432 2013-09-08 08:32:40 FriendlyGhost has joined
 433 2013-09-08 08:32:52 <sipa> author?
 434 2013-09-08 08:33:05 <sipa> you can set the author of commits you make
 435 2013-09-08 08:33:31 dub has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 436 2013-09-08 08:33:40 <sipa> commit --amend --author='Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>'
 437 2013-09-08 08:33:59 <warren> sipa: what if your commit had more than one author or contributor?
 438 2013-09-08 08:34:02 asoltys has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 439 2013-09-08 08:34:04 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 440 2013-09-08 08:35:23 <sipa> then i just mention them in the conmit message
 441 2013-09-08 08:35:26 n2dreams has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 442 2013-09-08 08:35:54 <sipa> unsure if there's a standard way
 443 2013-09-08 08:36:17 asoltys has joined
 444 2013-09-08 08:36:50 <warren> sipa: I'm backporting some stuff from 0.9.  I'd like to keep the original author's name so they get credit, but it seems improper in a way because they may also get blame if I make a mistake in the backport.
 445 2013-09-08 08:36:59 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 447 2013-09-08 08:37:14 <warren> sipa: there's also been a case where someone was blamed for a CVE patch being an incomplete fix when it actually wasn't written by them....
 448 2013-09-08 08:37:20 FriendlyGhost has quit ()
 449 2013-09-08 08:37:26 <sipa> right
 450 2013-09-08 08:37:32 <sipa> unsure
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 454 2013-09-08 08:38:10 <sipa> perhaps a Rebased-by: makes sense
 455 2013-09-08 08:38:29 <sipa> so you can leave them author, but make it clear that it'snot tje original version
 456 2013-09-08 08:38:36 <warren> ah, that sounds good.
 457 2013-09-08 08:38:43 n2dreams has joined
 458 2013-09-08 08:38:55 <warren> maybe Rebased-from: <githash> too
 459 2013-09-08 08:39:26 <sipa> maybe research whether there's standard for that already
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 462 2013-09-08 08:43:19 <warren> jgarzik: any suggestions here?
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 493 2013-09-08 09:13:16 <gmaxwell> I feel like I was working for less than minimum wage creating this transaction: 54fabd73f1d20c980a0686bf0035078e07f69c58437e4d586fb29aa0bee9814f
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 504 2013-09-08 09:45:06 <CodeShark> been working on a script compiler, gmaxwell? :)
 505 2013-09-08 09:49:58 Eiii has quit ()
 506 2013-09-08 09:53:07 <Krellan> That's an interesting TX, as is its inputs.  Saw it on blockchain.info.  What's it do?
 507 2013-09-08 09:54:40 <CodeShark> looks like the signature's sign is flipped in the scriptSig and then it is flipped again in the scriptPubKey
 508 2013-09-08 09:54:59 <CodeShark> and a few other operations are done on it
 509 2013-09-08 09:55:28 c0rw1n has joined
 510 2013-09-08 09:55:48 <CodeShark> and it uses an alt stack
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 514 2013-09-08 09:59:56 <CodeShark> or no, sorry - OP_1NEGATE pushes -1 to the stack
 515 2013-09-08 10:00:06 <CodeShark> it doesn't flip the signature's sign
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 520 2013-09-08 10:01:52 <CodeShark> <signature> <-1> <-1> <empty value> (is -1 < empty value? verify)
 521 2013-09-08 10:02:34 <CodeShark> <-1> and <empty value> are popped off stack to leave <signature> <-1>, then the sign of the -1 is flipped
 522 2013-09-08 10:02:41 CodeShark has quit (Quit: CodeShark)
 523 2013-09-08 10:05:35 <Krellan> I noticed that TX is unconfirmed.  Does it count as a nonstandard transaction, that miners won't confirm, you'd have to mine the block yourself to get it in?  Or is it still standard?
 524 2013-09-08 10:06:19 CodeShark has joined
 525 2013-09-08 10:06:26 <CodeShark> <signature> <-1> <-1> <empty value> (is -1 < empty value? verify)
 526 2013-09-08 10:06:39 <CodeShark> <-1> and <empty value> are popped off stack to leave <signature> <-1>, then the sign of the -1 is flipped
 527 2013-09-08 10:06:43 <warren> hmmm
 528 2013-09-08 10:06:43 <warren> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<boost::lock_error> >'
 529 2013-09-08 10:06:44 <warren>   what():  boost: mutex lock failed in pthread_mutex_lock: Invalid argument
 530 2013-09-08 10:06:51 <CodeShark> then 1 is popped on the stack, followed by 10
 531 2013-09-08 10:06:56 <CodeShark> so we have <signature> <1> <1> <10>
 532 2013-09-08 10:07:03 <CodeShark> then it checks whether 1 is between 1 and 10 left-inclusive, which is the case
 533 2013-09-08 10:07:09 <CodeShark> the 1 result is popped from the main stack and pushed to an alt stack
 534 2013-09-08 10:07:14 <CodeShark> then it does a normal pay-to-pubkey OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY
 535 2013-09-08 10:07:22 <CodeShark> and then it pops the 1 from the alt stack and pushes it to the main stack
 536 2013-09-08 10:07:28 <CodeShark> lol
 537 2013-09-08 10:07:31 <CodeShark> you have too much time, gmaxwell
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 541 2013-09-08 10:08:28 <CodeShark> warren check object lifespans
 542 2013-09-08 10:09:03 <CodeShark> perhaps something has gone out of scope
 543 2013-09-08 10:09:24 <warren> you folks seeing this in your debug.log at startup?  ERROR: GetMyExternalIP() : connection closed
 544 2013-09-08 10:09:39 <warren> it's weird that we're using some website for that =)
 545 2013-09-08 10:11:00 reizuki__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 546 2013-09-08 10:11:29 <warren> CodeShark: the boost error happens randomly after "stop" in both bitcoin-0.8.4 and litecoin-0.8.4.1, although only if I "stop" during block sync.
 547 2013-09-08 10:11:39 <warren> doesn't seem to have any ill effect
 548 2013-09-08 10:11:57 <CodeShark> have you done a stack trace?
 549 2013-09-08 10:12:10 <CodeShark> specifically, where in the code is the exception being caught?
 550 2013-09-08 10:12:10 <warren> no
 551 2013-09-08 10:12:15 <gmaxwell> warren: yea, that IP website thing needs to get fixed, it's disabled if you discover=0 at least. We probably should get a fix out for test deployment in the next version.
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 554 2013-09-08 10:12:39 <warren> yeah, I always thought it was odd that we relied on that... but what alternatives do we have?
 555 2013-09-08 10:12:52 <gmaxwell> warren: our peers tell us the IP they see us as.
 556 2013-09-08 10:12:55 <warren> ah
 557 2013-09-08 10:13:15 <gmaxwell> UPNP also tells us (which we'll use if we're using UPNP)
 558 2013-09-08 10:13:34 <warren> would it be bad to use UPNP only for that if UPNP is off?
 559 2013-09-08 10:13:46 <gmaxwell> meh.
 560 2013-09-08 10:14:03 <gmaxwell> upnp just doesn't work at all in a lot of places. and presumably if people want it off they want it off.
 561 2013-09-08 10:14:18 <gmaxwell> Krellan: eligius will mine it
 562 2013-09-08 10:14:43 <warren> peers telling you is good enough, I guess, unless they lie... although I'm not sure if there's any ill effect there?
 563 2013-09-08 10:14:50 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: well I thought it would take less time to redeem it than it did... I had a few problems getting the signature right.
 564 2013-09-08 10:15:23 <gmaxwell> warren: obviously we wouldn't want to trust just one.
 565 2013-09-08 10:16:14 <warren> gmaxwell: given that all outgoing connections are going through a single pipe, it would be trivial to MITM all outgoing connections, would being told a lie from all peers about your external IP be bad in any way?
 566 2013-09-08 10:16:48 <sipa> it would mean you broadcast a wrong own address
 567 2013-09-08 10:16:59 <sipa> so others have a harder time connecting to you
 568 2013-09-08 10:17:12 <warren> ok, so not too bad
 569 2013-09-08 10:17:20 <warren> it's a health of entire network thing, I guess
 570 2013-09-08 10:17:21 <sipa> but if an adversary already controls your network connection, that is not worse than what he already can
 571 2013-09-08 10:17:25 <gmaxwell> warren: uh, if someone is intercetpting all your outbound connections they could make _any_ measurement of your IP wrong in any case.
 572 2013-09-08 10:17:41 <warren> I was just making sure I understood the purpose of it.
 573 2013-09-08 10:17:43 <gmaxwell> and he could already prevent you from broadcasting your address, or broadcast a fake one or...
 574 2013-09-08 10:17:57 <warren> In that case, a centralized External IP finder on a website seems incredibly odd.
 575 2013-09-08 10:18:04 <sipa> agree
 576 2013-09-08 10:18:11 <gmaxwell> it's crufty satoshi code like the IRC stuff.
 577 2013-09-08 10:18:28 <sipa> it's strange that satoahi did something like that
 578 2013-09-08 10:18:29 <warren> "just remove it" sounds like the answer
 579 2013-09-08 10:19:06 <gmaxwell> we need to replace it with something else.
 580 2013-09-08 10:19:08 asuk has joined
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 582 2013-09-08 10:19:11 <gmaxwell> we can't just remove it.
 583 2013-09-08 10:19:23 <warren> what can replace it that isn't centralized?
 584 2013-09-08 10:19:29 <gmaxwell> holy fuck
 585 2013-09-08 10:19:34 <gmaxwell> USING THE ADDRESSES PEERS GIVE YOU
 586 2013-09-08 10:20:00 <warren> oh, I thought you meant it already did that.  sorry.
 587 2013-09-08 10:20:00 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 588 2013-09-08 10:20:04 <CodeShark> why didn't satoshi do it that way to begin with?
 589 2013-09-08 10:20:05 <gmaxwell> sorry for yelling, but I've said it several times. ahh no sorry.
 590 2013-09-08 10:20:13 asuk has quit (afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|Client Quit)
 591 2013-09-08 10:21:02 <warren> CodeShark: clearly he wanted centralized ways to identify the location of every node, even non-listening.  IRC and website. =P
 592 2013-09-08 10:21:23 <CodeShark> yeah, very much in the spirit of bitcoin
 593 2013-09-08 10:21:37 justusranvier has joined
 594 2013-09-08 10:22:13 egis has joined
 595 2013-09-08 10:22:55 <gmaxwell> dunno, in any case it was there in the first commit.. the service has been updated since.
 596 2013-09-08 10:23:11 <gmaxwell> But I think it is in no way more boneheaded than using IRC for discovery.
 597 2013-09-08 10:23:33 <gmaxwell> arguably that stuff needed to be more reliable when the network was small.
 598 2013-09-08 10:24:36 <warren> ah, so the 500 alt coins still based on 0.6.3 litecoin are well served by the two centralized discovery methods.
 599 2013-09-08 10:24:59 thrasher` has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 600 2013-09-08 10:25:38 thrasher` has joined
 601 2013-09-08 10:35:13 <gmaxwell> funny question about the peer addmyou... do you trust outbound connections more (attacker doesn't pick who you connect out to) or inbound more (these people actually connected to you?)
 602 2013-09-08 10:35:48 Darte has joined
 603 2013-09-08 10:35:57 <gmaxwell> I guess it should be you only trust reports you get on outbound, but trust ones which have been confirmed by recent inbound connections more.
 604 2013-09-08 10:36:19 <warren> Personally, I'd like the ability to use both random unauthenticated peers, and known, decentralized and authenticated peers.
 605 2013-09-08 10:36:48 <gmaxwell> ... how is this related? :(
 606 2013-09-08 10:38:16 <warren> You can't trust any outgoing or incoming.  Maybe you want to trust a particular peer that you have authenticated, but you also don't want to rely solely on them.  If they and random peers agree then maybe you're OK.
 607 2013-09-08 10:39:14 FriendlyGhost has quit ()
 608 2013-09-08 10:39:46 <gmaxwell> warren: ... or you could just manually set your external ip, or enable upnp. I don't see how replacing the protocol to support authentication and configuring authenticated peers is at all proportional to the trivial problem of getting a working IP inbound IP address.
 609 2013-09-08 10:40:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: p2pool does something mildly interesting. when you decide to announce your address you ask your peers to announce whatever address they see you as.
 610 2013-09-08 10:40:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: if the peer was malicious, well, they could have just dropped or manipulated your addr message in any case.
 611 2013-09-08 10:41:03 <warren> gmaxwell: sorry, I was talking about an issue well beyond this external IP website oddity.
 612 2013-09-08 10:41:16 Darte has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 613 2013-09-08 10:41:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: so we actually could do the same.. when we send out our addr message, just send it out using whatever that particular peer said our IP was.
 614 2013-09-08 10:42:36 <sipa> heh
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 616 2013-09-08 10:42:46 <sipa> that sounds relatively useless
 617 2013-09-08 10:42:56 <sipa> as the peer already knows it
 618 2013-09-08 10:43:10 Subo1977 has joined
 619 2013-09-08 10:43:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: Why do you say that?  Sure it knows it— but it's not broadcasting addr messages on your behalf. (and shouldn't since we don't want private non-listening nodes to get announced)
 620 2013-09-08 10:43:49 <sipa> but yes, using the addrYou sounds a useful way in general to determine addresses we're reachable on
 621 2013-09-08 10:44:30 <sipa> though you may have a risk, as you could create a ton of nodes that always report their peers's addresses as X
 622 2013-09-08 10:44:44 <sipa> in order to make the network do a DoS atack on X
 623 2013-09-08 10:44:59 <warren> maybe broadcast only if 4 of your peers tell you the same addrYou?
 624 2013-09-08 10:45:15 <sipa> not worse than just spamming addr messages with X...
 625 2013-09-08 10:45:21 <gmaxwell> So I was just suggesting that if we have no other knoweldge of our address (no configured external, no public interface) that when we send a peer an addr message we use the AddrYou it gave us.  This actually doesn't help that attack you just suggested.
 626 2013-09-08 10:45:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: since the same evil peer could just spam that message on its own, we won't amplify it at all.
 627 2013-09-08 10:45:37 <sipa> right
 628 2013-09-08 10:46:00 <gmaxwell> but if we simply trust it and broadcast it ourself, we will amplify it some, though perhaps not enough to matter.
 629 2013-09-08 10:46:41 <sipa> requiring that more than one peer reported that address may make sense
 630 2013-09-08 10:46:46 <gmaxwell> Someone was complaining in #p2pool recently that they had a load balancing nat router where some of their outbounds were on address X, and some were on Y but inbound only worked on Y.
 631 2013-09-08 10:47:38 <warren> I haven't checked, but hopefully it knows not to broadcast RFC1918 addresses
 632 2013-09-08 10:47:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: feh. I don't think we have to. Just substitute at send time the address that specific peer gave us. I think this is attack immune... and will eventually get the right address out if any of our peers give us the right one.
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 635 2013-09-08 10:49:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: vs say requring two peers, and then someone starts a bunch of lying nodes, and many nodes never transmit their correct address at all.
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 639 2013-09-08 10:49:31 <warren> I backported jgarzik's -disablewallet to 0.8.4.  It makes about 50MB RAM difference here.
 640 2013-09-08 10:50:54 plaprade has joined
 641 2013-09-08 10:51:21 <CodeShark> if that were merged into master I'd probably use it everywhere
 642 2013-09-08 10:51:53 <warren> CodeShark: then please help review it
 643 2013-09-08 10:51:57 <CodeShark> I'm even thinking it would be a good idea to make it a compile-time flag
 644 2013-09-08 10:52:15 <CodeShark> so that there are no dependencies on BDB anywhere in the build process
 645 2013-09-08 10:53:24 <sipa> warren: it has several classes of addresses that are marked not-routable
 646 2013-09-08 10:53:31 <sipa> look in netbase
 647 2013-09-08 10:53:41 <sipa> there's an IsRoutable
 648 2013-09-08 10:54:15 <warren> CodeShark: if so, please suggest it.  Now with autotools, would be nice to have --disable-FEATURE
 649 2013-09-08 10:57:56 ericmuyser has joined
 650 2013-09-08 10:59:03 <sipa> yeah, with autotools we can start doing things like that
 651 2013-09-08 10:59:14 <sipa> i'll probably run walletless nodes as well
 652 2013-09-08 10:59:25 <gmaxwell> I don't think we want that compiletime though.
 653 2013-09-08 10:59:31 <CodeShark> why not?
 654 2013-09-08 10:59:36 <gmaxwell> well okay, maybe to ditch the bdb dep.
 655 2013-09-08 10:59:50 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2901  Then review please.
 656 2013-09-08 10:59:55 <sipa> yeah, ditching bdb is a good reason
 657 2013-09-08 11:00:29 <sipa> or disabling rpc :p
 658 2013-09-08 11:00:58 <CodeShark> I think there should still be some form of rpc for obtaining state information
 659 2013-09-08 11:00:59 <warren> sipa: relay only nodes as appliance?
 660 2013-09-08 11:01:08 <CodeShark> but all wallet-related rpc can be removed
 661 2013-09-08 11:01:28 <sipa> sure, dropping rpc entirely sounds only mildly useful
 662 2013-09-08 11:01:40 <sipa> for extremely-memory constrained devuces maybe
 663 2013-09-08 11:01:50 <warren> -disablewallet already disables the wallet-dependent RPC's
 664 2013-09-08 11:02:23 <gmaxwell> getting the json stuff out of the binary will probably make it 20 mb smaller. :P
 665 2013-09-08 11:02:28 <warren> for extremely memory constrained devices you're only buying a month (WAG) of growth by cutting that out
 666 2013-09-08 11:02:42 <sipa> WAG?
 667 2013-09-08 11:02:48 <warren> wild ass guess
 668 2013-09-08 11:03:47 <sipa> memory usage growth per month shouldn't be more than half a megabyte or so
 669 2013-09-08 11:03:50 <sipa> in headers
 670 2013-09-08 11:04:17 <sipa> can someone tell me what sizeof(CBlockIndex) is?
 671 2013-09-08 11:04:51 <gmaxwell> 128
 672 2013-09-08 11:06:01 <sipa> so... 128 + 32 + 3 pointers + 1 int + 1 allocation overhead
 673 2013-09-08 11:06:19 <sipa> 192 bytes on a 64 bit system
 674 2013-09-08 11:06:24 <sipa> per block
 675 2013-09-08 11:08:19 <sipa> ;;calc [blocks]*192
 676 2013-09-08 11:08:19 <gribble> 49293888
 677 2013-09-08 11:08:56 Dyaheon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 678 2013-09-08 11:08:56 <sipa> ;;calc 192*4032
 679 2013-09-08 11:08:56 <gribble> 774144
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 685 2013-09-08 11:14:52 <gmaxwell> warren: how did you sort out configure: error: libdb_cxx headers missing
 686 2013-09-08 11:15:19 <gmaxwell> it seems to have no arguments to control which bdb version its using. :-/
 687 2013-09-08 11:18:22 <warren> gmaxwell: did you apply all of luke-jr's commits?
 688 2013-09-08 11:18:55 <warren> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2979
 689 2013-09-08 11:19:25 thrasher` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 690 2013-09-08 11:19:57 <warren> gmaxwell: there's a weird problem remaining with qt5 where it builds everything successfully except for tests where it mixes in qt4 headers somehow, so he excluded qt5 tools
 691 2013-09-08 11:21:32 <gmaxwell> warren: I did, but I'm a twit and am used to projects with AM_MAINTERMODE or whatever its called which automatically autoregen if you touch the configure script.. and I didn't autogen again.
 692 2013-09-08 11:22:14 thrasher` has joined
 693 2013-09-08 11:22:41 <gmaxwell> how the @#$#@ do you disable bitcoin-qt building?
 694 2013-09-08 11:22:53 <warren> he disabled it by default
 695 2013-09-08 11:23:05 <gmaxwell> ah, tada.
 696 2013-09-08 11:23:06 <warren> you need to use --enable-frontends=bitcoind,bitcoin-qt
 697 2013-09-08 11:23:14 <warren> which is a bit annoying, but whatever
 698 2013-09-08 11:23:18 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 699 2013-09-08 11:23:34 Dyaheon has joined
 700 2013-09-08 11:23:49 <gmaxwell> ... this is being compiled without optimization 0_o
 701 2013-09-08 11:24:11 <warren> gmaxwell: yeah, I complained about that.  -O1 is needed at least for hardening to work
 702 2013-09-08 11:24:22 <warren> gmaxwell: our old default was -O2 right?
 703 2013-09-08 11:24:27 <gmaxwell> we absolutely shouldn't be compiling with just O1.
 704 2013-09-08 11:24:30 <gmaxwell> right.
 705 2013-09-08 11:24:38 <warren> please join in the complaining
 706 2013-09-08 11:24:54 <gmaxwell> is this an omission or intentional? if just an omission your complaint is sufficient.
 707 2013-09-08 11:25:08 <warren> omission, he didn't know
 708 2013-09-08 11:25:17 <warren> but none of the current PR's have a fix for it
 709 2013-09-08 11:25:55 <gmaxwell> I don't understand why it's building so slow. :-/
 710 2013-09-08 11:26:00 <gmaxwell> esp with O0
 711 2013-09-08 11:26:19 <warren> yeah, it's slower now, but it actually uses ccache if available during configure
 712 2013-09-08 11:26:29 <gmaxwell> warren: ... so does everything in fedora.
 713 2013-09-08 11:26:34 <warren> oh, right.
 714 2013-09-08 11:27:48 <gmaxwell> I don't get why it's so slow, even small files are taking forever.
 715 2013-09-08 11:28:08 <gmaxwell> and it's compiling QT btw.
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 718 2013-09-08 11:28:52 random_cat has joined
 719 2013-09-08 11:29:34 <warren> Diapolo sounds upset.
 720 2013-09-08 11:29:43 <sipa> because?
 721 2013-09-08 11:29:49 o3u has quit (Quit: leaving)
 722 2013-09-08 11:29:59 <warren> bitcoin-qt.pro is gone now
 723 2013-09-08 11:30:20 <warren> and the current autotools implementation doesn't have working qt5 for reasons I haven't figured out yet
 724 2013-09-08 11:30:28 <warren> (not a priority for me)
 725 2013-09-08 11:31:56 paybitcoin1 has joined
 726 2013-09-08 11:32:04 <warren> I think cfields mentioned he would add a bitcoin-qt.pro generator
 727 2013-09-08 11:32:14 <sipa> no, just a static one
 728 2013-09-08 11:32:32 <gmaxwell> feh, recursive automake. bleh.
 729 2013-09-08 11:32:47 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 730 2013-09-08 11:33:02 <CodeShark> yeah, took me a short while to get used to the new build system
 731 2013-09-08 11:33:37 <warren> Is there a single git command that can apply all commits from a PR?  It's annoying to do it manually.
 732 2013-09-08 11:33:41 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2979
 733 2013-09-08 11:33:55 <gmaxwell> wget https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2979.patch && git am -3 2979.patch
 734 2013-09-08 11:34:06 <warren> ooh
 735 2013-09-08 11:34:22 <sipa> -3 ?
 736 2013-09-08 11:34:30 <warren> 3 way merge
 737 2013-09-08 11:34:33 <gmaxwell> swizzle things to make it go.
 738 2013-09-08 11:34:39 <sipa> ok
 739 2013-09-08 11:34:49 <warren> that was easy!
 740 2013-09-08 11:35:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: no idea why jgarzik asked for that; it seems everyone else thinks it's bad idea
 741 2013-09-08 11:35:29 <sipa> i have no opinion
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 743 2013-09-08 11:36:03 <CodeShark> Autoconf improvements? like replacing it with cmake or scons? :)
 744 2013-09-08 11:36:16 <random_cat> bitcoind is approaching the limits of an aws micro; an instance struggles to stay on the network and back itself up
 745 2013-09-08 11:36:18 <warren> Is that the actual reason for build being slow now?
 746 2013-09-08 11:36:40 <warren> random_cat: do you need a wallet on it?
 747 2013-09-08 11:36:47 <sipa> CodeShark: for recursive makefiles
 748 2013-09-08 11:37:16 <sipa> random_cat: reduce maximum connections and db cache size
 749 2013-09-08 11:38:11 <random_cat> warren: i do have a wallet on this instance
 750 2013-09-08 11:38:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's not a huge problem for us, we don't have many directorys and they all do substantial work. Recursive make increases the minimum time for a make linear in the number of directories, and it limits parallelism to a single directory. It also complicates some use of relative paths in build flags.
 751 2013-09-08 11:38:57 <random_cat> sipa: maxconnections=12
 752 2013-09-08 11:39:00 <warren> random_cat: and figure out why gitian binaries use like 100-200MB more RAM on Fedora/CentOS than Ubuntu.  The very same binary with static libs ...
 753 2013-09-08 11:39:13 <Arnavion> "git checkout pr/2979" would be faster than wget'ing the patch
 754 2013-09-08 11:39:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: I just don't know why anyone would actually want it, except for something like a subproject that has its own makefile stuff pulled from elsewhere.
 755 2013-09-08 11:39:20 <random_cat> sipa: what do you suggest for dbcache?
 756 2013-09-08 11:39:42 <warren> random_cat: default is 25, something smaller than that but big enough to work
 757 2013-09-08 11:40:15 <gmaxwell> random_cat: what is the limit of the aws instance?
 758 2013-09-08 11:40:23 <warren> gmaxwell: hm, that subproject (leveldb) where we had to delete leveldb.a ...
 759 2013-09-08 11:41:04 <random_cat> gmaxwell: it think the fundamental issues is the 600M of memory
 760 2013-09-08 11:41:23 <gmaxwell> random_cat: hm. my nodes do not use so much, what version are you running?
 761 2013-09-08 11:41:39 <warren> gmaxwell: what OS is your nodes running on?  this Fedora/CentOS bloat is real
 762 2013-09-08 11:41:49 <sipa> 600 MB for bitcoind, or for the whole system?
 763 2013-09-08 11:41:49 * random_cat runs debian
 764 2013-09-08 11:42:01 <random_cat> 600MB for the whole system
 765 2013-09-08 11:42:48 <sipa> bitcoind in 500 should be odable
 766 2013-09-08 11:42:52 <sipa> doable
 767 2013-09-08 11:43:23 <sipa> random_cat: 4 or so should be enough, but syncing will be slow
 768 2013-09-08 11:43:33 <random_cat> bitcoin by itself is not the issue.  bitcoind and running the backup is the problem :)
 769 2013-09-08 11:43:42 <sipa> backup?
 770 2013-09-08 11:44:09 <random_cat> system backup
 771 2013-09-08 11:44:56 <random_cat> "version" : 80000,
 772 2013-09-08 11:46:01 Polyatomic has quit (Quit: Catcha Round)
 773 2013-09-08 11:46:16 <random_cat> commit 44d7f4cbebd446f8f4a48ff9048d4549c0e2448a
 774 2013-09-08 11:46:19 <warren> cfields: contrib/gitian-descriptors/gitian-win32.yml ... why does it ./configure twice?
 775 2013-09-08 11:48:04 macboz has joined
 776 2013-09-08 11:48:28 <random_cat> anyway, it was merely a comment on the resources required by bitcoind.  i'll follow the tuning suggestions provided above
 777 2013-09-08 11:51:42 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 779 2013-09-08 11:53:21 <sipa> random_cat: please upgrade to 0.8.4, there have been serious memory hsage improvements since 0.8.0
 780 2013-09-08 11:53:50 <sipa> in 0.8.1 or 0.8.2 iirc
 781 2013-09-08 11:57:28 wiretapped has joined
 782 2013-09-08 11:58:46 <gmaxwell> Oh I missed random cat's reply. Indeed, the reason I asked is because memory usage was greatly improved in later versions.
 783 2013-09-08 11:59:28 <sipa> random_cat: upgrading will likely do more than those parameter tweaks
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 785 2013-09-08 12:02:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm not sure that -onion is any clearer than -tor
 786 2013-09-08 12:03:06 <sipa> ideally, it'd be something like -proxyforhiddenservicrs
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 790 2013-09-08 12:06:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: I did contemplate -hs instead, but I noticed elsewhere we called it onion. I think the most important thing is for it not to be "tor"
 791 2013-09-08 12:06:36 <gmaxwell> Because "tor" is triggering people's pattern matching when they want to use tor for privacy.
 792 2013-09-08 12:07:01 <sipa> right
 793 2013-09-08 12:07:08 <sipa> -onionproxy ?
 794 2013-09-08 12:07:11 <gmaxwell> but I'm game for whatever. I realized I was forgetting to do this, thus the pull req now.  Want me to poll the forum or something?
 795 2013-09-08 12:07:35 <c0rw1n> fwiw i think -onion makes sense
 796 2013-09-08 12:07:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm maybe a little afraid that onionproxy pattern matches for proxy.
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 799 2013-09-08 12:08:59 <gmaxwell> hm. -onion might get misunderstood as externalip= for onions. :(
 800 2013-09-08 12:11:28 <c0rw1n> 'k, you're the devs =)
 801 2013-09-08 12:11:48 <sipa> coingenuity: do you know what it does?
 802 2013-09-08 12:11:51 <sipa> eh
 803 2013-09-08 12:11:57 <sipa> c0rw1n:
 804 2013-09-08 12:12:47 <warren> I think I found a fatal bug in jgarzik's disablewallet.
 805 2013-09-08 12:13:06 <c0rw1n> no. builds in support for running bitcoind on a hiddenservice? connects through tor for peers? i didn't read the code, can't even c++
 806 2013-09-08 12:13:12 <warren> although it could be a screwup in my backport... i'll test master tomorrow
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 808 2013-09-08 12:21:10 <warren> -disablewallet is using about ~145MB less RAM than the same node with a wallet.
 809 2013-09-08 12:21:19 <warren> (but empty wallet that never had any tx's)
 810 2013-09-08 12:22:18 <gmaxwell> 145 less??!
 811 2013-09-08 12:22:33 <gmaxwell> I thought you were saying 50 before (which sounded higher than expected, but still)
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 813 2013-09-08 12:23:40 <warren> gmaxwell: gitian builds seem to really use a ton of extra RAM for no reason.  local fedora build seems tamer.
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 815 2013-09-08 12:24:06 <gmaxwell> oh you're talking about the gitial builds, I assume they use more ram because all of the orthorgonal static libraries.
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 817 2013-09-08 12:25:16 <warren> yeah, but 145MB where the only difference is an empty, unused wallet?
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 819 2013-09-08 12:26:41 <warren> ooh... centos seems fine.  just fedora 18 and 19 is where I see the memory bloat.
 820 2013-09-08 12:27:05 <warren> gmaxwell: when I mentioned the memory bloat on fedora issue, jgarzik's first assumption was bdb related
 821 2013-09-08 12:29:17 <sipa> c0rw1n: no, it sets the prozy to use for only hidden services
 822 2013-09-08 12:29:34 <sipa> c0rw1n: as opposed to -proxy, which sets it for everything
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 824 2013-09-08 12:30:59 <gmaxwell> heh... pulltester
 825 2013-09-08 12:31:00 <gmaxwell> Error: Error: Disk space is low!
 826 2013-09-08 12:34:30 <amiller> +
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 892 2013-09-08 14:10:52 <Luke-Jr> warren: bitcoin-qt is enabled by default if you have Qt.
 893 2013-09-08 14:11:05 <warren> Luke-Jr: oh
 894 2013-09-08 14:11:13 <Luke-Jr> with my pullreq that is
 895 2013-09-08 14:11:53 <warren> Luke-Jr: consensus seems to be to restore the -O2 default
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 897 2013-09-08 14:12:18 <Luke-Jr> warren: IMO, make debug be -ggdb -O1 and disable debug by default
 898 2013-09-08 14:12:28 <Luke-Jr> (debug disabled is already -O2)
 899 2013-09-08 14:13:57 <warren> Luke-Jr: Make it so.(TM)
 900 2013-09-08 14:14:27 <warren> Luke-Jr: debug disabled means no -g?
 901 2013-09-08 14:14:54 <warren> Luke-Jr: debug symbols aren't entirely useless with -O2, that's standard in fedora and debug symbols are fine there for the majority of things.
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 904 2013-09-08 14:18:27 <swulf--> gmaxwell: has anyone implemented CoinJoin yet?
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 912 2013-09-08 14:27:59 <sipa> release=-O2 -g0, debug=-O1 -ggdb
 913 2013-09-08 14:28:02 <sipa> seems reasonable
 914 2013-09-08 14:28:13 <sipa> and release default
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 919 2013-09-08 14:31:54 <jgarzik> warren, what is the "fatal bug" in disable-wallet?
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 922 2013-09-08 14:38:21 <jcorgan> is there a source of information on things that need hacking on, but that the main devs don't have time/interest?  really just looking for low-hanging fruit that a bitcoin newb could work on (bug fixes, documentation, cleanup, misc. non-core features) in order to familiarize himself with the code base without screwing things up too badly.
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 929 2013-09-08 14:44:07 <jcorgan> let me ask another way--how does an experienced C++/Python developer and bitcoin *user* start contributing useful things to the codebase?
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 936 2013-09-08 14:54:07 <jcorgan> must be too early in the AM in the US :)
 937 2013-09-08 14:56:01 <swulf--> i'm interested in the answer to that question as well
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 942 2013-09-08 15:06:33 <bizoro> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 943 2013-09-08 15:08:00 <jcorgan> bizoro: if that is in response to my question--I know *how* to contribute, but am looking for guidance on *what sorts of things* to contribute
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 947 2013-09-08 15:12:33 <jcorgan> i'm a maintainer of another open source project (gnuradio) so I know there are probably things that would nice to have but the devs are just focused on more important features.
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 949 2013-09-08 15:13:37 <bizoro> there's a TODO list in the docs jcorgan
 950 2013-09-08 15:14:16 <michagogo> How would a bitcoin node running with "-externalip=hiddenservicename.onion -discover=1 -listen=1 -tor=127.0.0.1:9050" handle Tor not being available when it starts up but starting and becoming available later?
 951 2013-09-08 15:15:22 <sipa> michagogo: well
 952 2013-09-08 15:15:44 <sipa> outgoing tor connections would initially just fail
 953 2013-09-08 15:15:54 <jcorgan> bizoro: thanks, i did not find one, will look again
 954 2013-09-08 15:18:06 <bizoro> michagogo, it will keep trying to connect, 5s default timeout, I think
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 956 2013-09-08 15:20:09 <michagogo> Ah, I see -- great
 957 2013-09-08 15:20:24 <michagogo> (since sometimes bitcoin starts up before Vidalia has tor fully up and running)
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 960 2013-09-08 15:24:11 <sipa> potentially it will start decreasing the score of onion peers
 961 2013-09-08 15:26:29 <michagogo> Is that a bad thing?
 962 2013-09-08 15:26:33 <michagogo> ;;google bitcoin peer score
 963 2013-09-08 15:26:34 <gribble> 8 Vendors You Didn't Know Accepted Bitcoins - Mashable: <http://mashable.com/2013/03/29/bitcoin-vendors/>; Ripple, a Peer-to-Peer Financing Network, Could Make Bitcoin Great: <http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-ripple-economy-could-make-bitcoin-great>; BTCJam - Peer to Peer Bitcoin Lending - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCIWKS8jLQ4>
 964 2013-09-08 15:26:48 <michagogo> ಠ_ಠ
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 969 2013-09-08 15:38:52 <jgarzik> hmm
 970 2013-09-08 15:39:05 <jgarzik> does -externalip=foo.onion -nolisten make sense?
 971 2013-09-08 15:39:17 <jgarzik> (or rewriting that, could -externalip imply -listen?)
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 973 2013-09-08 15:41:28 <michagogo> Hmm.
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 975 2013-09-08 15:42:13 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell, gavinandresen: any objection to going ahead and merging commit 541a7fc of PR 2901?  It is the commit that adds various "if (pwalletMain)" checks. Does nothing else but. Should be safe IMO.
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 983 2013-09-08 15:56:28 <sipa> jgarzik: i'll try to have a look at some pull requests soon, but for tge next days i'm just on a phone :)
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 985 2013-09-08 15:57:32 <jgarzik> all good, don't worry about it
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1014 2013-09-08 16:35:32 <ryan-c> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp line 261 - shouldn't there be a check for division by zero there?
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1027 2013-09-08 17:04:26 <Luke-Jr> nobody suggest jcorgan do block relay over radio? :p
1028 2013-09-08 17:05:13 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: I think if it's 0, something is badly broken :p
1029 2013-09-08 17:06:00 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: I don't disagree, but the current code just assumes the operation will never complete that fast without actually checking.
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1031 2013-09-08 17:10:08 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: Do you happen to know how long that KDF takes to run on 64bit?
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1038 2013-09-08 17:24:19 * jgarzik rofls at RFC 3092
1039 2013-09-08 17:24:34 <michagogo> Is that one of the April Fools RFCs?
1040 2013-09-08 17:24:36 <michagogo> ;;google RFC 3092
1041 2013-09-08 17:24:37 <gribble> RFC 3092 Etymology of "Foo" - Internet Engineering Task Force: <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3092.txt>; RFC 3092 - Etymology of "Foo": <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3092>; Foobar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar>
1042 2013-09-08 17:24:42 <michagogo> lol.
1043 2013-09-08 17:24:52 <michagogo> Indeed it is.
1044 2013-09-08 17:25:38 * michagogo likes HTCPCP and IPoAC better
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1066 2013-09-08 18:00:43 <michagogo> ;;bcauth michagogo
1067 2013-09-08 18:00:44 <gribble> Request successful for user michagogo, hostmask michagogo!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:b02092b0b39a33c647afa9b99c1a957bd6b1ea289090e36135b70da2
1068 2013-09-08 18:02:08 <jgarzik> yeah, my favorite RFC is IPoAC -- and the implementation of it that some UK'ers successfully executed
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1078 2013-09-08 18:21:15 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: pretty sure C++ checks division by zero implicitly
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1096 2013-09-08 18:37:48 <arioBarzan> Why there is no traces of bitcoin binaries earlier than version bitcoin-0.3.24 on sourcefourge obsolete collection of old binaries?
1097 2013-09-08 18:38:41 <arioBarzan> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Obsolete/)
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1107 2013-09-08 18:52:16 <maaku> when validating a transaction, where is the check that a coinbase input is > 100 blocks back?
1108 2013-09-08 18:52:21 <maaku> i can't seem to find it
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1121 2013-09-08 19:11:59 <maaku> found it :)
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1138 2013-09-08 19:51:14 <warren> jgarzik: getblocktemplate causes instant segfault on my backport to 0.8.4 of your disablewallet.  It is possible I screwed up the backport because of the complication of our 0.8.4 having removed internal generation.
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1140 2013-09-08 19:51:38 <warren> jgarzik: so i'm testing master + your patch.  Then I noticed your patch needs rebasing for master.
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1142 2013-09-08 19:53:50 <jgarzik> warren, are you passing any parameters to getblocktemplate?  I definitely tested that, here.
1143 2013-09-08 19:54:06 <warren> jgarzik: no parameter and with parameter both segfault, I probably screwed up the backport
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1147 2013-09-08 19:56:21 <warren> jgarzik: https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/commits/exp-0.8.4.1-disablewalletmark2
1148 2013-09-08 19:57:12 <warren> jgarzik: I'll try a cleaner backport to bitcoin-0.8.4 next time, as that won't have the complication of generate ripped out
1149 2013-09-08 19:58:13 <warren> oh, i see another error I added
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1153 2013-09-08 20:00:11 <warren> jgarzik: aside from the segfault, it's quite nice on relay-only nodes, I'm saving between 50MB and 145MB RAM  on different hosts
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1194 2013-09-08 20:42:32 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt_: pulltester broken
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1359 2013-09-08 23:30:37 <gmaxwell> maaku: Sorry for being so contradictory on the forum! :)
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1361 2013-09-08 23:35:07 <maaku> heh, nothing to be sorry for in stating facts
1362 2013-09-08 23:35:47 <maaku> i've seen the certicom building so many times i just assumed they were local
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1374 2013-09-08 23:53:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt_ Luke-Jr : I freed up space on the pull-tester machine, and am having it re-test last 5 pulls
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1376 2013-09-08 23:53:50 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: thanks
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1379 2013-09-08 23:56:38 <gavinandresen> speaking of pull-tester… pull-tester is not testing Windows builds right now.  Just saying it out loud so "we" don't forget....
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