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4 2013-09-10 00:01:44 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: as far as advanced features go, I think it would be more interesting to make the gui console more powerful. E.g. so you could do things like right click on a txid in a getrawtransaction output and have it run getrawtransaction on that txid.
5 2013-09-10 00:02:26 <gmaxwell> or replace the console with a box that brings up a python (or whatever) interperter with a good liberary loaded for speaking to the node.
6 2013-09-10 00:02:46 <gmaxwell> The problem with GUIs for "advanced" features is that they only work well for whatever narrow set of "advanced" you can predefine.
7 2013-09-10 00:03:09 <gmaxwell> The space of what people can do with bitcoin is so insanely broad, nothing we can do with an advanced interface would fail to be confining.
8 2013-09-10 00:03:38 <gmaxwell> So I would instead prefer to make a real advanced interface more accessible and then take the good things people invent in that space and make them regular (non-advanced) features.
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11 2013-09-10 00:05:15 <Krellan__> Makes sense to me.
12 2013-09-10 00:06:17 <Krellan__> A worthy project would be to separate the GUI from bitcoind entirely, make the GUI operate 100% over RPC.
13 2013-09-10 00:06:51 <gmaxwell> e.g. from _my_ advanced interface, which is ... bash plus bitcoind answering complicated questions like "show me any non-version 1 transactions in the last 288" blocks is a (for i in {257023..256735} ; do echo $i ; ./bitcoind getblock `./bitcoind getblockhash $i` | grep ' "' | cut -d'"' -f2 | xargs -n1 -iblah ./bitcoind getrawtransaction blah 1 | grep -B 1 'ersion" : [^1]' ; done) away.
14 2013-09-10 00:07:28 <Krellan__> Nice. Find any more? I wonder if somebody was experimenting with fuzzing various fields in the TX?
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16 2013-09-10 00:07:51 <gmaxwell> Apparently it was a bug in genjix's SX wallet code.
17 2013-09-10 00:08:02 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: no more yet.
18 2013-09-10 00:08:33 <gmaxwell> fortunately address reuse allowed me to deanonymize the guilty party and go ask them what happened!
19 2013-09-10 00:10:11 <gmaxwell> Another fun commandline added to my collection lately:
20 2013-09-10 00:10:16 <Krellan__> UTXO (standard form) contains a hash based on a signature, address is public key, signature requires matching private key, so could it be said that address ownership implies UTXO ownership?
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22 2013-09-10 00:10:36 <Krellan__> with ownership defined as "I have the matching private key for that public key".
23 2013-09-10 00:10:44 <gmaxwell> $ ./bitcoind -rpcconnect=gbt.mining.eligius.st -rpcport=9337 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x getblocktemplate '{"capabilities": ["coinbasetxn"]}' | grep `./bitcoind getrawtransaction b7574d16bcabd68f65286ca1648968ed8a7d9560c865c12051b33bfd4c8d7b7a` < Is eligius attempting to mine <txid>
24 2013-09-10 00:11:42 <Krellan__> nice, you can see if your TX has been accepted into the block being mined on that way.
25 2013-09-10 00:12:12 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: but it doesn't. MTGOX or Coinbase doesn't own the funds in your account, though they have the matching private keys.
26 2013-09-10 00:12:36 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure what you mean standard form there, P2SH addresses are IsStandard and could have any kind of rules the system can describe.
27 2013-09-10 00:12:56 <Krellan__> true. Only talking about address ownership, not who actually legally owns the funds there. I could be custodian of somebody else's funds and letting them use my addresses.
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29 2013-09-10 00:14:02 <Krellan__> by standard form I meant the really common script you see all the time (pay to pubkey hash).
30 2013-09-10 00:14:02 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: for all I know you've managed to escrow your address into some kind of pycho multiparty computation.
31 2013-09-10 00:14:24 <Krellan__> CoinJoin?
32 2013-09-10 00:14:44 <Luke-Jr> Krellan__: addresses are just pointers, not objects.
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34 2013-09-10 00:15:09 <Luke-Jr> Krellan__: the ECDSA keypair may be an object, but that is not an address itself
35 2013-09-10 00:15:27 <Luke-Jr> it's just part of the wallet
36 2013-09-10 00:16:10 <Krellan__> could I have more than one unique address that would both let me spend a particular UTXO that is pay-to-pubkey-hash, or does pay-to-pubkey-hash accept only one address as a valid solution?
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39 2013-09-10 00:17:00 <Luke-Jr> Krellan__: addresses aren't solutions, they're templates for a scriptPubKey
40 2013-09-10 00:17:27 <Krellan__> by solution I meant "whatever makes the script return true so that I can spend the coins".
41 2013-09-10 00:18:02 <Krellan__> I think I have the idea right but not the semantics.
42 2013-09-10 00:18:17 <Luke-Jr> Krellan__: that's the ECDSA private key in this case
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45 2013-09-10 00:19:15 <Krellan__> Yep. It matches an address, though, right? Address = public part of that keypair, I thought.
46 2013-09-10 00:19:44 <Luke-Jr> no
47 2013-09-10 00:19:53 <Luke-Jr> address *refers to* the keypair, but it's a one-way thing
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50 2013-09-10 00:20:26 <Luke-Jr> (you *can* map from the ECDSA key to an address, but this is considered opaque outside of generating the address for people to send to)
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53 2013-09-10 00:20:40 <gmaxwell> Really an address is just a shorthand template for some particular scriptpubkey form.
54 2013-09-10 00:20:43 <Luke-Jr> ^
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58 2013-09-10 00:22:04 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: there are an ~infinite number of scriptsigs which will allow you to spend any particular pay-to-pubkey-hash UTXO.
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61 2013-09-10 00:23:46 <gmaxwell> for example. PUSH("Quack. Quack. I'm a crazy spatula!") OP_DROP PUSH(signature) PUSH(pubkey)
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63 2013-09-10 00:27:24 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0 is the CoinJoin reference.
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68 2013-09-10 00:30:43 <Krellan__> Thanks. I meant only OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <hash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG.
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70 2013-09-10 00:31:29 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: I was giving a scriptsig example, what you're giving there is a script pubkey.
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72 2013-09-10 00:32:38 <Krellan__> Yep. The address influences the hash.
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74 2013-09-10 00:33:12 <Luke-Jr> â¦
75 2013-09-10 00:33:29 <Luke-Jr> Krellan__: you're trying to make a link that simply doesn't exist
76 2013-09-10 00:34:07 <Krellan__> I'm probably missing something.
77 2013-09-10 00:35:20 <Luke-Jr> Krellan__: I think you want to fit "ownership" into some absurdly narrow definition that Bitcoin was not intended to convey it with
78 2013-09-10 00:40:57 <Krellan__> Bad choice of words on my part, then.
79 2013-09-10 00:41:41 <Krellan__> The address is the public key, right?
80 2013-09-10 00:44:11 <Luke-Jr> the address is just a pointer
81 2013-09-10 00:44:59 <Luke-Jr> it's a template for a BC (not ECDSA) public key technically, but that's a technical detail, not a user-end thing
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83 2013-09-10 00:48:37 <gmaxwell> "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <hash160> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG" is a bitcoin public key template, a 1xxx address means use that template with data in the xxx converted from base58 into binary and written into the <hash160> part.
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94 2013-09-10 01:01:04 <Krellan__> gmaxwell: Yes, so that comes from the address, it plugs right into the template.
95 2013-09-10 01:02:09 <Krellan__> Is there a 1:1 mapping between an address and its template?
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99 2013-09-10 01:04:14 <Krellan__> If there is a 1:1 mapping then you could say that one is merely an expanded, more verbose, form of the other.
100 2013-09-10 01:05:12 <Krellan__> And thus that there is a from address. Obviously I'm shortcutting something. Please correct my thinking.
101 2013-09-10 01:06:51 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: conventional software will display the same address for different scriptpubkeys, in fact.
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103 2013-09-10 01:07:12 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: the stuff you've been talking about for the last hour really have nothing to do with your conclusion.
104 2013-09-10 01:08:48 <gmaxwell> Krellan__: I give you a transaction that pays you. By inspecting the public ledger, _but not the transaction itself_ you can determined what rules the value (coins) the transaction redeemed were previously assigned to.
105 2013-09-10 01:09:02 <gmaxwell> Addresses have absolutely nothing to do with this, they're a complete distraction.
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107 2013-09-10 01:09:57 <gmaxwell> But knowing what rules the value being moved was previously assigned to tells you _nothing_ about who the transaction is from in theory, and in practice it sometimes tells you far lower than you might guess.
108 2013-09-10 01:10:49 <gmaxwell> So if you'd like to insist in insting you know a "from address", be my guested, I'm not president of the universe or anything. But it's been my expirence that that kind of thinking has caused people to lose funds.
109 2013-09-10 01:11:13 <gmaxwell> The system is what it is. Assigning names to things doesn't add value if the names remove clarity instead of adding it.
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113 2013-09-10 01:17:09 <nsh> GMAXWELL FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSE!!!
114 2013-09-10 01:17:17 <Krellan__> :)
115 2013-09-10 01:17:28 <Krellan__> Nice conclusion.
116 2013-09-10 01:17:41 <Cusipzzz> nsh: ++
117 2013-09-10 01:18:19 <nsh> HIS SUPPORT HAS LITERALLY DOUBLED IN THE LAST TEN SECONDS. THIS IS THE FASTEST GROWING POLITICAL MOVEMENT THE WORLD HAS EVER SHOUTED ABOUT IN CAPS FOR NO GOOD REASON
118 2013-09-10 01:18:31 * nsh crawls back into his books
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126 2013-09-10 01:42:25 <Andrevan> well I'm forming an anti-masonic party specifically targeting gmaxwell, although I doubt he is masonic, I just like the name
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129 2013-09-10 01:43:54 <Luke-Jr> â¦
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136 2013-09-10 02:10:15 <gmaxwell> Anyone know of an instance where someone has sent coin to an contrived (random value) pay to pubkey, other than 0?
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208 2013-09-10 04:09:40 <hydromet> is it possible to generate a paper rendition of my bitcoin wallet using Bitcoin-Qt or the bitcoind daemon?
209 2013-09-10 04:10:47 <maaku> hydromet: not that i'm aware of, but there's a python bitcoin wallet tool
210 2013-09-10 04:11:15 <maaku> which will dump out the whole wallet
211 2013-09-10 04:11:16 <gmaxwell> hydromet: in git bitcoin-qt/bitcoind you can get a simple textfile output that can be easily printed.
212 2013-09-10 04:11:16 <hydromet> maaku: armory
213 2013-09-10 04:11:29 <gmaxwell> hydromet: spatula?
214 2013-09-10 04:11:39 <hydromet> gmaxwell: never heard of spatula
215 2013-09-10 04:12:01 <hydromet> I want to have a physical copy of my wallet
216 2013-09-10 04:12:21 <maaku> i was thinking of pywallet, but sure armory could probably handle that
217 2013-09-10 04:12:56 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure armory will do nothing with a bitcoin-qt wallet file. So that depends on what he means by "my bitcoin wallet"
218 2013-09-10 04:13:12 <hydromet> gmaxwell: wallet.dat
219 2013-09-10 04:13:14 <gmaxwell> hydromet: sorry, I couldn't figure out why you said armory there it seemed kinda random.
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221 2013-09-10 04:13:52 <hydromet> gmaxwell: I meant the python based bitcoin armory wallet app
222 2013-09-10 04:14:16 <gmaxwell> what about it?
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227 2013-09-10 04:29:21 <phantomcircuit> hydromet, you can dump the private keys using the rpc interface (help -> debug window)
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229 2013-09-10 04:30:56 <gmaxwell> ls
230 2013-09-10 04:31:00 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: if you want a so-called "paper wallet", no. Bitcoin-Qt's wallet.dat is constantly changing, and needs to be re-backedup every 90 transactions or so
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232 2013-09-10 04:31:10 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: but people shouldn't do that.
233 2013-09-10 04:31:40 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: does anyone want us to keep wallets non-determinstic?
234 2013-09-10 04:31:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm not aware of anyone
235 2013-09-10 04:32:19 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, shrug as long as they're printing all of them including everytime a keypool key is elevated (lol yeah nobody will do that)
236 2013-09-10 04:32:55 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well i have a healthy bit of caution about it
237 2013-09-10 04:32:56 * Luke-Jr wonders if we should rename dumpprivkey to something random every release to discourage people from using it
238 2013-09-10 04:33:06 <gmaxwell> it would be pretty easy to split the keypool into two (change and not change), set the default size to 50000 and replaced the generate function with the BIP32 private derrivation code...
239 2013-09-10 04:33:15 <maaku> Luke-Jr: as far as i'm aware needs for non-determinism can be handled by multi-wallet support
240 2013-09-10 04:33:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I can't wait for the first big extendpubkey+private break.
241 2013-09-10 04:33:32 <maaku> multi-HD-wallet
242 2013-09-10 04:34:04 <gmaxwell> maaku: back in early 2011 I got bludgeoned for suggesting we change, back then people wanted "unstealing"
243 2013-09-10 04:34:15 <Luke-Jr> lol
244 2013-09-10 04:34:29 <gmaxwell> I think multiwallet doesn't do anything relevant for non-determinism.
245 2013-09-10 04:34:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, unstealing o.o
246 2013-09-10 04:34:33 <gmaxwell> Does it?
247 2013-09-10 04:34:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: for backward compat, we might want to support both anyway
248 2013-09-10 04:34:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: multiwallet would mean a different HD chain for each
249 2013-09-10 04:34:54 <maaku> the point is people want keys that are not linked in any way
250 2013-09-10 04:35:16 <gmaxwell> maaku: thats not an application, thats a mechenism.
251 2013-09-10 04:35:35 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the property that if you lose an old backup then someone who finds it will gradually be able to get less and less of your coin over time.
252 2013-09-10 04:35:52 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oh...
253 2013-09-10 04:35:53 <phantomcircuit> hmm
254 2013-09-10 04:36:24 <phantomcircuit> something tells me that would in practice just lead to people not 100% breaking off that wallet chain
255 2013-09-10 04:36:32 <phantomcircuit> ie mistakes
256 2013-09-10 04:36:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: backwards compat? well I'd say you have a new wallet version, and if your wallet is upgraded to that version it adds a masterprivate key record and fills up the pools from it.
257 2013-09-10 04:37:03 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I didn't consider it very compelling myself at the time, but back then it had its proponents.
258 2013-09-10 04:37:42 <hydromet> gmaxwell: sorry I had to step away from my computer ... regarding the armory app, it has an ability to print a paper rendition of a bitcoin wallet (if I'm not mistaken the printout includes a bar or QR code)
259 2013-09-10 04:38:18 <gmaxwell> hydromet: it has the ability to print a paper backup of an armory wallet. that functionality doesn't exist for bitcoin-qt and doesn't make sense yet.
260 2013-09-10 04:38:40 <hydromet> gmaxwell: doesn't make sense "yet" but will some day make sense?
261 2013-09-10 04:39:22 <gmaxwell> yes, the functionality will someday work for bitcoin-qt.
262 2013-09-10 04:39:22 <hydromet> gmaxwell: because Luke-Jr statd "Bitcoin-Qt's wallet.dat is constantly changing, and needs to be re-backedup every 90 transactions or so" ??
263 2013-09-10 04:39:22 <gmaxwell> correct.
264 2013-09-10 04:40:15 <hydromet> gmaxwell: great to know this ... I'm not sure how many people using Bitcon-Qt are aware that they need to back up their wallet every 90 transactions or so
265 2013-09-10 04:40:28 <hydromet> unless there is a wiki page about this stating so?
266 2013-09-10 04:40:35 <gmaxwell> There is. Several.
267 2013-09-10 04:40:41 <hydromet> ok
268 2013-09-10 04:42:04 <hydromet> phantomcircuit: thanks for the tip regarding dumping private keys
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271 2013-09-10 04:44:00 <gmaxwell> hydromet: careful, a lot of people have lost funds while doing that and not completely understanding what they were doing.
272 2013-09-10 04:46:23 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
273 2013-09-10 04:46:55 <hydromet> gmaxwell: what would you recommend? case in point, if I have some bitcions I'm saving in my wallet and something happens to me, I want my little brother to inherit them (but he's not as tech savvy as me), and so I would want him to have a paper version of my wallet which we could put in a physically safe place (like a physical bank vault)
274 2013-09-10 04:49:18 Namworld has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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277 2013-09-10 04:51:30 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: try a USB stick
278 2013-09-10 04:51:41 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: if that isn't good enough, switch to Armory temporarily
279 2013-09-10 04:57:01 <phantomcircuit> hydromet, long term media storage is a non trivial subject
280 2013-09-10 04:57:20 <phantomcircuit> do not expect normal paper to last long term
281 2013-09-10 04:57:28 <CodeShark> you should certainly store multiple copies
282 2013-09-10 04:57:35 <CodeShark> in different places
283 2013-09-10 04:57:46 <CodeShark> perhaps using different technologies
284 2013-09-10 04:58:03 <CodeShark> i.e. USB stick, CD, etc...
285 2013-09-10 04:58:50 <CodeShark> do NOT use a thermal printer :p
286 2013-09-10 04:59:13 <phantomcircuit> unless it's actually burning the paper
287 2013-09-10 04:59:21 <phantomcircuit> (jk)
288 2013-09-10 04:59:43 <phantomcircuit> acid free paper printed with a laser printer
289 2013-09-10 04:59:44 <phantomcircuit> magic
290 2013-09-10 04:59:57 <phantomcircuit> (ink jet with low quality ink will fade/migrate over time)
291 2013-09-10 05:00:44 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't count on USB lasting a long time.
292 2013-09-10 05:01:03 <CodeShark> yeah, I probably wouldn't either
293 2013-09-10 05:01:54 <CodeShark> there's something to be said for etching it on metal or stone
294 2013-09-10 05:01:58 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
295 2013-09-10 05:02:49 <CodeShark> archaeologists would probably agree :)
296 2013-09-10 05:03:37 DaQatz has joined
297 2013-09-10 05:03:56 <CodeShark> old tech, but quite reliable
298 2013-09-10 05:04:09 viperhr1 has joined
299 2013-09-10 05:05:50 <CodeShark> I guess the modern version is to use a laser
300 2013-09-10 05:07:03 <CodeShark> as in laser etching, not laser printing
301 2013-09-10 05:07:38 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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304 2013-09-10 05:11:44 <CodeShark> inks can bleed and might be chemically unstable
305 2013-09-10 05:11:59 hydromet has left ()
306 2013-09-10 05:12:52 <CodeShark> and paper is certainly chemically unstable
307 2013-09-10 05:13:42 <CodeShark> not to mention biodegradeable, etc...
308 2013-09-10 05:14:49 <Luke-Jr> hmm, you're right
309 2013-09-10 05:14:57 * Luke-Jr goes back to stashing gold in his backyard
310 2013-09-10 05:16:42 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
311 2013-09-10 05:17:05 <CodeShark> I suppose today's printing technology can guarantee legibility for decades if not centuries at the very least, assuming the paper is kept in a dry, noncorrosive environment
312 2013-09-10 05:17:55 <gmaxwell> there is also ink and paper designed for archival..
313 2013-09-10 05:18:02 <CodeShark> but for comparison, stone can preserve a faithful copy for billions of years :)
314 2013-09-10 05:18:36 <weex> protip: get a kiln
315 2013-09-10 05:19:02 <CodeShark> and noble metals can as well, as long as they are kept well below melting temperature and not under high pressure
316 2013-09-10 05:20:50 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: nobody cares about stuff in stone for even thousands of years
317 2013-09-10 05:21:19 <CodeShark> what do you mean?
318 2013-09-10 05:21:46 btcbtc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
319 2013-09-10 05:22:04 <magbo> Greetings, gentlemen. What is the common pattern to listen to the transactions that have a destination in a configurable list of addresses? -walletnotify is great, but it listens only to the addresses within a local wallet.
320 2013-09-10 05:22:50 <magbo> Also, for those who wonder â I've fixed testnet compatibility in pycoin.
321 2013-09-10 05:23:31 <Luke-Jr> magbo: just scan every block once it's 6 deep in the chain
322 2013-09-10 05:23:35 btcbtc has joined
323 2013-09-10 05:24:18 <magbo> Luke-Jr: ok! Thanks.
324 2013-09-10 05:24:41 <Luke-Jr> -blocknotify will tell yuo when there's a new one
325 2013-09-10 05:25:24 AusBitBank_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
326 2013-09-10 05:26:01 <magbo> Yeah, I know that ;) Thank you.
327 2013-09-10 05:26:08 <Luke-Jr> np
328 2013-09-10 05:26:20 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
329 2013-09-10 05:26:53 <CodeShark> luke, geologists and paleontologists regularly look for clues etched in stone hundreds of millions or even billions of years ago :)
330 2013-09-10 05:27:41 <CodeShark> human written language has only really existed for several thousand years, though
331 2013-09-10 05:28:08 ssi has left ()
332 2013-09-10 05:28:38 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: maybe, but IMO who cares :P
333 2013-09-10 05:29:35 <CodeShark> granted, if people are still using bitcoin a billion years from now I'll be at the same time disappointed at the lack of technological innovation and astounded we're not yet extinct
334 2013-09-10 05:30:26 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, that's hella slow
335 2013-09-10 05:30:40 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, getblock doesn't return information about txouts
336 2013-09-10 05:30:51 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: getrawtransaction in batches
337 2013-09-10 05:30:54 <phantomcircuit> so you end up calling getblock and getrawtransaction <txid> 1 for everything
338 2013-09-10 05:30:54 paracyst has quit ()
339 2013-09-10 05:31:08 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, it takes days/weeks to do that due to rpc overhead
340 2013-09-10 05:31:16 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: it's 2 RPC calls
341 2013-09-10 05:31:27 <Luke-Jr> 2nd call gets all transactions at once
342 2013-09-10 05:31:32 <CodeShark> if you want a really fast notification mechanism, add a filter to https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses/blob/master/examples/listener2/listener2.cpp
343 2013-09-10 05:31:35 <phantomcircuit> getrawtransaction doesn't take a list
344 2013-09-10 05:31:41 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: JSON-RPC does
345 2013-09-10 05:31:51 <Luke-Jr> 2.0
346 2013-09-10 05:32:16 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, well even with my hacked getrawtransactions it takes days to load them all
347 2013-09-10 05:32:50 tgerring has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
348 2013-09-10 05:32:55 <sipa> Krellan: making tools that only function for "the common case" implies you're working on infrastructure that enforcing limitation to the common case. Don't do that - don't assume from addresses exist or usable, and you get a much more scalable ecosystem
349 2013-09-10 05:33:03 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: don't blame me, I made getblock return complete data originally :<
350 2013-09-10 05:33:31 moarrr has joined
351 2013-09-10 05:33:39 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, heh that's what i was about to do
352 2013-09-10 05:33:47 <phantomcircuit> instead i just ran 16 bitcoind instances
353 2013-09-10 05:33:51 tgerring has joined
354 2013-09-10 05:33:54 <phantomcircuit> zfs snapshots ftw
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358 2013-09-10 05:37:12 <tgerring> magbo, if there was a cloud service that you could use for transaction or block notifications, would it be something you'd be interested in using?
359 2013-09-10 05:37:53 <CodeShark> so much for the zero trust philosophy :p
360 2013-09-10 05:38:36 <tgerring> I don't think much trust is required to listen for notifications about public information?
361 2013-09-10 05:39:12 <CodeShark> an application developer would presumably be using these events to do things like trigger transaction processing
362 2013-09-10 05:39:40 <gmaxwell> YOU JUST GOT PAID A BILLION BITCOIN. CONGRATS.
363 2013-09-10 05:39:45 <CodeShark> lol
364 2013-09-10 05:40:05 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/21mbtc.png
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367 2013-09-10 05:40:23 <Luke-Jr> tgerring: it makes no sense to JUST notify
368 2013-09-10 05:40:31 <Luke-Jr> the notification is that your local client has the block! :p
369 2013-09-10 05:40:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I have 21 mBTC too!
370 2013-09-10 05:40:52 <tgerring> Luke-Jr, you've never sat around waiting for a deposit to confirm N blocks?
371 2013-09-10 05:41:07 <CodeShark> I let programs do that for me
372 2013-09-10 05:41:25 <CodeShark> :)
373 2013-09-10 05:41:36 <magbo> tgerring: I would be interested in building a distributed system that does this once transaction listening becomes a bottleneck in the system I'm working at ;)
374 2013-09-10 05:41:50 <CodeShark> there is a distributed system - it's called bitcoin
375 2013-09-10 05:41:51 <Luke-Jr> â¦
376 2013-09-10 05:41:54 <magbo> But such a distributed system should be deployable locally.
377 2013-09-10 05:42:08 * Luke-Jr facepalms
378 2013-09-10 05:42:22 <magbo> And it's like 20LoC.
379 2013-09-10 05:42:47 <magbo> tgerring: So, no, I wouldn't.
380 2013-09-10 05:43:40 <magbo> Luke-Jr: uh wha? Doesn't it make sense to listen to txs in parallel across several nodes if one node fails to do that effectively?
381 2013-09-10 05:43:59 <magbo> to listen to txs that match a predicate, that is.
382 2013-09-10 05:44:35 <tgerring> Is there any scenario in which you could using an external service related to Bitcoin for your application?
383 2013-09-10 05:45:25 <CodeShark> it makes complete sense for an organization to run redundant listeners as part of their transaction processing IT infrastructure - it even makes sense for third parties to handle transaction processing as a service for third parties. but it doesn't really make sense for an application developer to rely on third party services for this
384 2013-09-10 05:45:41 <CodeShark> err, as a service for other companies
385 2013-09-10 05:45:42 <magbo> tgerring: I don't see any just yet.
386 2013-09-10 05:45:53 <CodeShark> if you can'
387 2013-09-10 05:45:56 <tgerring> Cool, I appreciate the input
388 2013-09-10 05:46:17 <CodeShark> if you can't run your own instances of verification nodes, you probably shouldn't be writing applications that handle any significant amounts of money
389 2013-09-10 05:47:00 <magbo> I want to type âthis^â but I'm not sure if it's acceptable here :)
390 2013-09-10 05:47:40 stretchwarren has joined
391 2013-09-10 05:48:02 <tgerring> But if the environment was 100% buildable on your own hardware, it's something you'd be interested in?
392 2013-09-10 05:48:24 <CodeShark> application developers can indeed rely on libraries that run on their own devices - that's fine
393 2013-09-10 05:49:31 <tgerring> Do you think there's a service model that would exist in the space of licensing/support/etc. ?
394 2013-09-10 05:49:57 ThomasV has joined
395 2013-09-10 05:50:40 <CodeShark> I think the two approaches that make sense are either software components that provide these services to application developers - or transaction processing as a service, as in the processor would take care of all the infrastructure for you
396 2013-09-10 05:50:50 <gmaxwell> tgerring: the service model for that service appears to be to (1) offer it for free, and then (2) in 9 months get "hacked" and lots of people lose their bitcoins (3) profit (the mysterious step two has been solved, apparently)
397 2013-09-10 05:51:15 <tgerring> why is 2 inevitable?
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399 2013-09-10 05:52:27 <CodeShark> if you're relying on a third party transaction processor, then you're not writing directly to bitcoin yourself
400 2013-09-10 05:52:58 <CodeShark> the transaction processor can just provide you with a very high level RESTful API or something
401 2013-09-10 05:54:08 <tgerring> and there's not value in having software that automates that build environment?
402 2013-09-10 05:54:41 tmsk has joined
403 2013-09-10 05:54:58 <CodeShark> you could distribute binaries - or complete VMs, even
404 2013-09-10 05:56:12 <tgerring> as long as it's hosted on your own hardware?
405 2013-09-10 05:56:26 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
406 2013-09-10 05:56:40 <CodeShark> there's also a business model for renting the capacity
407 2013-09-10 05:57:18 <tgerring> not sure I follow...
408 2013-09-10 05:57:44 <CodeShark> you don't necessarily need to own the hardware - you could rent it
409 2013-09-10 05:57:57 <CodeShark> either as VPSes or get colo or something
410 2013-09-10 05:58:41 <tgerring> what's the difference between that and spinning up an user-encrypted VM hosted by a "cloud" company?
411 2013-09-10 05:59:11 <CodeShark> decentralization
412 2013-09-10 05:59:14 <CodeShark> no single point of failure
413 2013-09-10 06:00:10 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
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415 2013-09-10 06:00:51 <tgerring> Not sure I'm sold on the the point, since part of the sell of cloud is redundancy. And with choice of cloud providers, it's not like a monopoly
416 2013-09-10 06:01:18 <tgerring> in my mind a VM is a VM
417 2013-09-10 06:01:23 Arnavion has joined
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419 2013-09-10 06:03:06 <CodeShark> I just think that any serious application developer will probably want to run their own instances - and people who want someone else to handle all this infrastructure for them probably wants a higher level set of services, including full transaction processing, invoicing, etc...
420 2013-09-10 06:03:22 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
421 2013-09-10 06:03:38 <tgerring> So you don't see any real space in the middle?
422 2013-09-10 06:04:20 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
423 2013-09-10 06:04:37 <tgerring> bitcoin transactions aren't exactly the easiest thing to work with :D
424 2013-09-10 06:04:38 tmsk has joined
425 2013-09-10 06:05:13 <CodeShark> I agree that the p2p protocol itself is too low-level for most application development. But I believe that the gap should be filled with libraries and runtime services
426 2013-09-10 06:05:27 <CodeShark> not third-party proprietary networks
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429 2013-09-10 06:05:48 <tgerring> not sure how an open-source VM is a "proprietary" network.. but okay
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438 2013-09-10 06:07:12 <CodeShark> VM hosting is ok - I thought you were referring to a third-party service that channels all your queries through their own network
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442 2013-09-10 06:08:17 <tgerring> My basic idea is to provide a fully-prepared VM with up-to-date blockchain and authenticated RESTful API. It would contain source and be re-buildable at any point with ssh access. You'd own the environment.
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445 2013-09-10 06:08:39 <CodeShark> that's fine - I have no problem with that model
446 2013-09-10 06:08:43 <tgerring> But I want to make it easy enough for Joe Developer to "spin up" in a few seconds and query against via simple REST calls
447 2013-09-10 06:09:08 <tgerring> gotcha
448 2013-09-10 06:09:13 Luke-Jr has joined
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450 2013-09-10 06:10:00 <tgerring> right now, it's too hard for the average programmer to work with addresses and transactions and i feel like it's inhibiting potential application development
451 2013-09-10 06:10:10 ccook has joined
452 2013-09-10 06:10:28 <tgerring> so if there's a service I can build that people are interested in, I want to build it
453 2013-09-10 06:10:37 <CodeShark> indeed, I've spent the better part of the last couple years working to fill the gap between p2p and applications
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456 2013-09-10 06:12:06 <tgerring> so if you could spin-up a fully loaded bitcoind VM as described above, is that something that you'd be interested in using? possibly in paying for as a service?
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459 2013-09-10 06:12:36 <CodeShark> I'm more interested in being on the other end of that deal :p;
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464 2013-09-10 06:13:16 <tgerring> hah
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467 2013-09-10 06:13:47 <tgerring> fair enough :-p bitcoin has so much potential but the market is so small right now that trying to build a company seems infeasible
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469 2013-09-10 06:15:07 <CodeShark> tgerring: I've been doing these sorts of things for a few clients the last couple years, but it's far from being commoditized where I can just sell it generically
470 2013-09-10 06:15:32 <CodeShark> well, perhaps not too far :p
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474 2013-09-10 06:16:38 * tgerring demands the future hurries up
475 2013-09-10 06:16:40 <CodeShark> but rather than selling the VM usage as a service, I'm more interested in a model that also includes technical support and app integration services
476 2013-09-10 06:17:01 <CodeShark> or rather, that is more based on these latter things than selling the VM usage as a service - perhaps licensing the VM
477 2013-09-10 06:17:31 <tgerring> I'm not opposed to any model that makes money
478 2013-09-10 06:19:44 <CodeShark> I agree there's no mass market for this kind of service right now - which is why it probably makes a lot more sense to focus on a few big clients
479 2013-09-10 06:19:44 <CodeShark> the mass market product would probably be the full transaction processing service (i.e. bitpay)
480 2013-09-10 06:20:18 <CodeShark> anyhow, this isn't #bitcoin-biz
481 2013-09-10 06:20:20 <CodeShark> :p
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485 2013-09-10 06:22:46 <tgerring> sad empty chan :( thanks for the input. there's a thread i started over at bitcointalk if anyone cares to follow the discussion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=289998
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532 2013-09-10 07:49:12 <Krellan> sipa: Just read the scrollback now. Thanks for the advice earlier re the "common case".
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538 2013-09-10 07:55:33 <sipa> in any case, if you work on infrastructure that requires that senders spend from conventional outputs, you're.artifically and unnecessarily restricting who can use it, and even if that's 99.9% of bitcoin users today, it will make it much hard to adopt more generic solutions later if everyone does this
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546 2013-09-10 08:08:41 <Krellan> Agreed. Although I will agree "there is no from address", 99% of the time there is a de facto from address.
547 2013-09-10 08:08:59 <sipa> there is no useful from address
548 2013-09-10 08:09:30 <sipa> you can't use it for refunds wuthout knowing what software the sender used
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550 2013-09-10 08:10:53 <sipa> assuming widespread address reuse, you could use it for detecting recurring customers, but that's a very weak test, and bad pracrice in any case
551 2013-09-10 08:11:53 <sipa> it is usefup when you're not using a wallet abstraction, and look at individual addresses all the way, but that risks causing a miaunderstandig about the system
552 2013-09-10 08:12:11 <sipa> and coin control provides much better transparency in that case
553 2013-09-10 08:12:38 <sipa> if you want to break the abstraction to be able keep addresses unlinked, multiwallet is a muxh better aolution
554 2013-09-10 08:13:21 <sipa> i hope we can evolve towards a world where we reason about wallets sending coina from/to eachother
555 2013-09-10 08:13:33 <TD> good morning
556 2013-09-10 08:13:37 <sipa> and addressea are an implementation detail that humans can ignore ezcept for debugging
557 2013-09-10 08:13:49 <sipa> the payment protocol is a step in that direction
558 2013-09-10 08:14:20 <sipa> hi there
559 2013-09-10 08:14:56 <TD> did someone change regtest mode to not use regular addresses?
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561 2013-09-10 08:15:46 <Krellan> I wonder why Bitcoin-Qt uses "wallets" - it should just be a collection of addresses with an available balance on each address
562 2013-09-10 08:16:02 <Krellan> er "accounts"
563 2013-09-10 08:16:28 <Krellan> ideally each wallet would be a collection of addresses, and you'd be able to merge/split wallets up as desired.
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567 2013-09-10 08:16:49 <sipa> Krellan: that's micromanagement
568 2013-09-10 08:16:53 <TD> merging a wallet would mean putting transactions on the network, too
569 2013-09-10 08:17:06 <sipa> Krellan: the point is exactly that humans shouldn't deal with individual addresses
570 2013-09-10 08:17:26 <sipa> wallet software can move coins around in addresses without human interaction
571 2013-09-10 08:17:27 <Krellan> no, I meant from local point of view only. Merging a wallet = walletA.dat + walletB.dat = walletAB.dat (new file created)
572 2013-09-10 08:17:44 <sipa> you can do that
573 2013-09-10 08:17:57 <Krellan> I like tagging every address I send/receive with a memorable name that reminds me who it was to/from
574 2013-09-10 08:17:57 <sipa> dump the keys from one wallet, import them in another
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576 2013-09-10 08:18:17 <sipa> ok, how is that a problem?
577 2013-09-10 08:18:26 <phantomcircuit> sipa, he cant merge the labels
578 2013-09-10 08:18:27 <sipa> addresses are *entry* points into a wallet
579 2013-09-10 08:18:36 <sipa> they are not things that hold a balance
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581 2013-09-10 08:18:47 <sipa> at least when lookwd at from the wallet abstraction
582 2013-09-10 08:19:09 <sipa> you can meaningfully define a balance per address, but that is micromanagement and causes misunderstansing
583 2013-09-10 08:19:32 <sipa> phantomcircuit: dump+import will in fact merge labels
584 2013-09-10 08:19:49 <Krellan> I think of it as a hierarchy: wallet contains 1 or more addresses, address contains the ability to satisfy conditions to spend 1 or more UTXO's, UTXO's have value denominated in BTC
585 2013-09-10 08:20:15 <sipa> yes, you like to reason about it as each address being an individual wallet
586 2013-09-10 08:20:24 <sipa> that is what coin control is for
587 2013-09-10 08:20:29 <sipa> if you want that level of control
588 2013-09-10 08:20:39 <Krellan> I really like coin control
589 2013-09-10 08:20:56 <sipa> but if you make that the default, you require people to understand low level details about the system
590 2013-09-10 08:21:03 <Krellan> coin control = Where's George for bitcoin :)
591 2013-09-10 08:21:34 <sipa> TD: they use testnet addresses, afaics
592 2013-09-10 08:21:46 <TD> sipa: not originally. only if someone changed it
593 2013-09-10 08:21:54 <sipa> really?
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595 2013-09-10 08:22:00 <TD> i have someone saying that bitcoinj no longer accepts regtest addresses, and it seems somebody changed them to use testnet form
596 2013-09-10 08:22:13 <TD> arguably that may have made more sense originally, but the way matt wrote it, it used regular v1 addresses
597 2013-09-10 08:22:13 <sipa> i'm the only one who touched that code, so that was probably me
598 2013-09-10 08:22:25 <sipa> not realizing they were intended to use mainnet addresses
599 2013-09-10 08:22:29 <TD> any idea which commit it might have been?
600 2013-09-10 08:22:38 <sipa> bip32
601 2013-09-10 08:23:04 <sipa> can't reach right now, but it was part of the bip32 pullreq
602 2013-09-10 08:23:10 <sipa> alao, git blame is your friend
603 2013-09-10 08:23:17 <TD> hmm i reviewed that code and don't recall seeing such a change
604 2013-09-10 08:23:17 <TD> yeah
605 2013-09-10 08:23:18 <sipa> *search
606 2013-09-10 08:23:20 <TD> i'm fiddling with it now
607 2013-09-10 08:23:33 <TD> ah. "generalize version bytes"
608 2013-09-10 08:23:52 <sipa> testnet does make more sense imho, and maybe even something entirely different
609 2013-09-10 08:24:00 <TD> yes. you deleted that code block.
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611 2013-09-10 08:24:58 <sipa> i probably didn't realize it was there to return it to mainnet bytes, or that it wasn't important as it was just for single-node testing
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827 2013-09-10 13:26:24 <jgarzik> hum
828 2013-09-10 13:26:37 * jgarzik was looking for PGP-in-the-browser
829 2013-09-10 13:27:06 <jgarzik> https://webpg.org seems like a candidate
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833 2013-09-10 13:37:37 <TD> jgarzik: what does it mean to do pgp in the browser?
834 2013-09-10 13:37:50 <TD> at least on macos, gpg services lets you encrypt/decrypt in arbitrary text edit boxes
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856 2013-09-10 13:56:13 <jgarzik> TD, I was thinking of PGP-JS as a solution for people who do not already have PGP software installed, and might find that cumbersome for whatever reason. i.e. when answering the question "how do you send PGP email to jeff garzik?" I can reply "gnupg on linux, gpgtools on osx, blahblah on windows, or $this in a JS-capable browser"
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858 2013-09-10 13:56:49 <TD> i think the problems PGP has are not dislike of installing software, but rather mental overhead in setting it up and learning how to use it
859 2013-09-10 13:57:01 <jgarzik> a valid point
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861 2013-09-10 13:58:12 <TD> IMHO it's better to use an entirely parallel mail system. stuff like OTR or PGP that piggybacks on existing channels is a good way to save effort, but ultimately the impedence mismatch creates a lot of problems
862 2013-09-10 13:58:29 <TD> so something like Pond or BitMessage or enhanced versions thereof
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911 2013-09-10 14:51:11 <jonass> hmm? i'm trying to build bitcoin/master? strugle with the new autotools...
912 2013-09-10 14:51:23 <jonass> is there no chance to reopen the project in Qt-Creator?
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932 2013-09-10 15:14:12 <jcorgan> do TXs get aged out of the mempool at some point? I can't find it in main.cpp; all I see is where mempool.remove is called in a couple different places in the chain reorg code logic
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938 2013-09-10 15:17:01 <TD> jcorgan: no. well known problem
939 2013-09-10 15:17:13 <TD> matt wrote some code to try and fix that at some point but it bit-rotted and didn't get merged
940 2013-09-10 15:17:16 <jcorgan> TD: thanks
941 2013-09-10 15:17:43 <jcorgan> in #bitcoin we were discussing rebroadcasting an unconfirmed TX with a higher TX fee
942 2013-09-10 15:17:57 cypher has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
943 2013-09-10 15:18:01 <jcorgan> but I though it wouldn't get relayed because the old one was still in the mempool of the neighbor nodes
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946 2013-09-10 15:19:04 <TD> that won't work
947 2013-09-10 15:19:16 <TD> you're trying to double spend, and stopping that would be rather the whole point of bitcoin
948 2013-09-10 15:19:29 <jcorgan> yes, i agree, i assumed that's how it worked
949 2013-09-10 15:19:32 <TD> there are right fixes for that issue, such as child-pays-for-parent but unfortunately, again, the code for that has not been reviewed
950 2013-09-10 15:19:36 <TD> (although some was written)
951 2013-09-10 15:20:06 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
952 2013-09-10 15:21:21 <jcorgan> thanks for confirming my understanding
953 2013-09-10 15:21:37 sacredchao has joined
954 2013-09-10 15:21:49 <ElevatioN> im an electronics engineering student, writing a paper on bitcoin, was wondering if anyone wanted to be interviewed
955 2013-09-10 15:23:12 <michagogo> ElevatioN: What kind of people are you looking for?
956 2013-09-10 15:23:47 Subo1977_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
957 2013-09-10 15:24:13 <ElevatioN> anyone with technical knowledge, be it electronics, programming or even like econmics/ finance that wants to talk and talk and share information and maybe anwser some dumb questionsw
958 2013-09-10 15:24:50 t7 has joined
959 2013-09-10 15:25:14 <jcorgan> ElevatioN: just remember that anyone you interview is going to speaking as an individual, not on behalf of "bitcoin developers", even though you are in #bitcoin-dev
960 2013-09-10 15:25:15 Subo1977 has joined
961 2013-09-10 15:25:17 <michagogo> TD: jcorgan: I think there *were* talks of allowing a transaction that would be an older unconfirmed transaction, but with one or more added inputs and zero or more added outputs
962 2013-09-10 15:26:12 <jcorgan> michagogo: yes, TD's comment reminded of the discussion on bitcointalk about that
963 2013-09-10 15:27:57 <ElevatioN> oh i know jcorgan
964 2013-09-10 15:28:01 <jcorgan> michagogo: but it would be hard to add just another TX input to add a TX fee without being able to add a change output
965 2013-09-10 15:28:04 <ElevatioN> thats alot what my paper is about
966 2013-09-10 15:28:11 <ElevatioN> the decentralized nature of bitcoin
967 2013-09-10 15:28:22 <ElevatioN> and why its important for the internet, freedom of information etc in general
968 2013-09-10 15:28:22 <michagogo> jcorgan: Well, not necessarily
969 2013-09-10 15:28:51 <michagogo> jcorgan: In theory you *could* create an output that is the size of the fee you're looking for
970 2013-09-10 15:29:34 <jgarzik> jcorgan, aging TX's out of the mempool has been a years-long wishlist item for me
971 2013-09-10 15:29:44 <jgarzik> IIRC I wrote a patch to do that, too
972 2013-09-10 15:29:50 <jgarzik> long since bitrotted
973 2013-09-10 15:30:27 <jgarzik> but TX determinism (or as near as we get) is a nice feature to have. Client already has responsibility to transmit until confirmed, so we should not let things linger in the mempool.
974 2013-09-10 15:30:30 <jcorgan> yes, in theory, but now this hypothetical TX replacement idea is getting complicated enough to be considered fragile in my mind
975 2013-09-10 15:30:35 <michagogo> ;;google bitrot
976 2013-09-10 15:30:36 <gribble> Bit rot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rot>; bit rot - Catb.org: <http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/bit-rot.html>; Short Story: Bit Rot - Charlie's Diary - Antipope!: <http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/06/short-story-bit-rot.html>
977 2013-09-10 15:31:27 bbrian has joined
978 2013-09-10 15:31:37 <jcorgan> jgarzik: question for me is what a good age is
979 2013-09-10 15:31:49 <michagogo> jgarzik: Do you mean it in the sense of "dormant code rot, i.e. the fact that dormant (unused or little-used) code gradually decays in correctness as a result of interface changes in active code that is called from the dormant code."?
980 2013-09-10 15:31:53 <jgarzik> jcorgan, 24 hours | 48 hours | 1 week
981 2013-09-10 15:31:55 <jgarzik> no more
982 2013-09-10 15:32:20 <jgarzik> michagogo, it is a patch that has no hope of applying or working with current code in git master
983 2013-09-10 15:32:32 <jgarzik> the world Has Moved On
984 2013-09-10 15:33:22 <jcorgan> jgarzik: what are the objections to mempool aging?
985 2013-09-10 15:34:17 <jgarzik> jcorgan, also keep in mind an on-going proposal is to rewrite the mempool to behave as if it is a block of, say, 100MB in size. transactions that cannot be selected for this mega-block will simply be discarded as spam or junk. sometimes aging would naturally fall out of that.
986 2013-09-10 15:34:40 <jgarzik> jcorgan, objections? will just that it's complex and nobody has championed it as an ongoing effort yet
987 2013-09-10 15:34:45 <jgarzik> no real "don't do that"
988 2013-09-10 15:34:53 <jgarzik> *well
989 2013-09-10 15:35:06 <michagogo> jgarzik: Couldn't that 100MB block thing cause legitimate transactions to be discarded?
990 2013-09-10 15:35:07 devDelay has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
991 2013-09-10 15:35:11 <michagogo> It seems like a bad idea to me.
992 2013-09-10 15:35:24 <michagogo> (just first-glance reaction)
993 2013-09-10 15:35:53 <jgarzik> michagogo, if it doesn't fit with a mega-block, it will not get mined in the next many hours
994 2013-09-10 15:36:52 <michagogo> But will the transaction still exist on the sender's end?
995 2013-09-10 15:37:01 <michagogo> And therefore, tie up those coins in the client?
996 2013-09-10 15:37:37 <jgarzik> michagogo, The normal flow of a transaction is: create transaction, resend until confirmed.
997 2013-09-10 15:37:50 <michagogo> Oh, I forgot about the resending part
998 2013-09-10 15:37:53 <jgarzik> michagogo, Nothing changes from the client's perspective
999 2013-09-10 15:38:25 <michagogo> Personally I think it may be a good idea to have the transaction flood-filled, even if it's not stored in mempool
1000 2013-09-10 15:38:32 <jgarzik> combined with TX mempool aging
1001 2013-09-10 15:38:34 <michagogo> (or maybe removed from mempool after, say, 1 minute)
1002 2013-09-10 15:38:43 <jcorgan> michagogo: easy DOS then
1003 2013-09-10 15:38:45 <jgarzik> and clients may expire transactions, and resend them with higher fees, if it is taking too long to confirm
1004 2013-09-10 15:38:53 <michagogo> That way the receiver will also have it to resend
1005 2013-09-10 15:39:05 <jgarzik> michagogo, that's not how bitcoin works
1006 2013-09-10 15:39:17 <michagogo> jgarzik: Do receivers not rebroadcast transactions?
1007 2013-09-10 15:39:27 <jgarzik> michagogo, depends on the client. some do, some don't.
1008 2013-09-10 15:39:28 <michagogo> (sent to their address, I mean)
1009 2013-09-10 15:39:35 <jgarzik> michagogo, if you are smart, you do :)
1010 2013-09-10 15:39:46 <michagogo> Does the reference client do it?
1011 2013-09-10 15:39:55 <jgarzik> bitcoind rebroadcasts any IsMine(), yes.
1012 2013-09-10 15:40:03 <michagogo> That's what I thought.
1013 2013-09-10 15:40:48 <michagogo> So, a transaction that doesn't fit into the 100MB block should be relayed, even if not stored (assuming it passes the regular checks for relaying, ofc)
1014 2013-09-10 15:41:38 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1015 2013-09-10 15:41:43 <michagogo> So that the receiving node can see it, tell that it exists, and rebroadcast it later when there's less traffic or whatever
1016 2013-09-10 15:42:24 <jgarzik> we mempool what we relay. I don't think we should relay spam.
1017 2013-09-10 15:43:02 <jcorgan> jgarzik: isn't it the other way around--we only relay what makes it passed the checks to go into the mempool?
1018 2013-09-10 15:43:06 <jgarzik> 100MB == 16 hours worth of blocks
1019 2013-09-10 15:43:13 <jcorgan> s/passed/past/
1020 2013-09-10 15:43:24 <jgarzik> jcorgan, don't read too much into English word ordering :)
1021 2013-09-10 15:43:26 <michagogo> jgarzik: But if you limit mempool size, there may be something that would get relayed under current rules, but simply doesn't have space in the limited mempool
1022 2013-09-10 15:43:31 <jgarzik> I consider it transitive
1023 2013-09-10 15:43:43 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
1024 2013-09-10 15:43:44 <michagogo> And, there *are* some transactions that can take more than 16 hours to confirm
1025 2013-09-10 15:44:07 <jgarzik> michagogo, yesÂ
they get retransmitted until they confirm
1026 2013-09-10 15:44:18 <michagogo> Right, I know.
1027 2013-09-10 15:44:22 <jgarzik> Â
or not, if the client chooses to let expire
1028 2013-09-10 15:44:24 <jcorgan> jgarzik: yeah, i'm being pedantic, a little burned out after 10 days on the road
1029 2013-09-10 15:44:33 <jgarzik> and thus choose to rewrite with a higher fee, that will make it confirm
1030 2013-09-10 15:44:35 <michagogo> But if it doesn't get relayed if it doesn't fit, the receiver doesn't hear of it
1031 2013-09-10 15:44:44 <jgarzik> == free market, not our stupid fixed fee market
1032 2013-09-10 15:44:51 <jgarzik> michagogo, correct
1033 2013-09-10 15:44:58 <jgarzik> michagogo, and that's a good thing
1034 2013-09-10 15:45:03 <michagogo> ...it is? o_O
1035 2013-09-10 15:45:28 <jgarzik> michagogo, it's spam
1036 2013-09-10 15:45:39 <michagogo> It opens up the door to "hey, you didn't send these bitcoins." "Yes I did..." if the sender doesn't keep the node running
1037 2013-09-10 15:45:47 <michagogo> jgarzik: Not necessarily, if you limit mempool size
1038 2013-09-10 15:45:52 <jgarzik> michagogo, that door has always been open
1039 2013-09-10 15:46:01 <michagogo> jgarzik: Yes, for spammy transactions
1040 2013-09-10 15:46:07 <jgarzik> ...
1041 2013-09-10 15:46:10 <gmaxwell> michagogo: which is somewhat a better outcome than "hey, you sent those bitcoins a week ago, but they're still not confirmed"
1042 2013-09-10 15:46:36 <michagogo> jgarzik: What I'm saying is, a 100MB mempool size limit will cause some not-spam transactions to be dropped
1043 2013-09-10 15:46:47 <jgarzik> michagogo, no
1044 2013-09-10 15:46:52 <michagogo> ...no?
1045 2013-09-10 15:47:05 <jgarzik> michagogo, if dropped, it is by definition not interesting to the network
1046 2013-09-10 15:47:17 <jgarzik> michagogo, and aging gives you the opportunity to revise and make it interesting
1047 2013-09-10 15:47:23 <michagogo> Erm.
1048 2013-09-10 15:47:24 <gmaxwell> michagogo: effectively doing so would _define_ spam transactions.
1049 2013-09-10 15:47:34 <michagogo> Maybe I'm missing something...
1050 2013-09-10 15:47:46 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
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1052 2013-09-10 15:47:55 <gmaxwell> michagogo: e.g. "it's spammy if it's not in the top half of that sorted pool"
1053 2013-09-10 15:48:04 <jgarzik> nod
1054 2013-09-10 15:48:10 <michagogo> gmaxwell: But if transaction volume is high enough...
1055 2013-09-10 15:48:13 <maaku> michagogo: no one is stopping you from rebroadcasting your transaction after it's been dropped
1056 2013-09-10 15:48:13 <jgarzik> the mempool is sorted by "attractiveness" (fee, etc.)
1057 2013-09-10 15:48:21 <maaku> or building off it with a higher fee
1058 2013-09-10 15:48:38 <michagogo> maaku: Right, but that requires the sender to keep the sending node running
1059 2013-09-10 15:48:50 <maaku> michagogo: which is still the case, currently
1060 2013-09-10 15:48:50 <gmaxwell> getting stuff _out_ of the memorypool is important too. A couple times lately I've dealt with people with seriously screwed up stuck transactions that they can't fix.
1061 2013-09-10 15:49:00 <jgarzik> michagogo, it requires the sender toÂ
not send spam
1062 2013-09-10 15:49:07 <gmaxwell> Esp because bc.i is a really agressive re-relayer and cannot bet stopped.
1063 2013-09-10 15:49:09 <jcorgan> jgarzik: so, that 100MB would be full of transactions that miners have chosen to ignore, as the ones that get mined would be removed, correct?
1064 2013-09-10 15:49:12 <jgarzik> payment protocol also fixes this issue
1065 2013-09-10 15:49:13 wei_ has joined
1066 2013-09-10 15:49:28 <michagogo> maaku: Right now, as soon as the receiver sees the transaction, the receiver's client can keep resending it
1067 2013-09-10 15:49:39 <jgarzik> jcorgan, the mempool would be full of transactions, sorted in order of "most likely to be mined"
1068 2013-09-10 15:49:44 <jgarzik> michagogo, ^
1069 2013-09-10 15:49:50 <maaku> michagogo: and that won't continue to be true, because...?
1070 2013-09-10 15:49:57 <jcorgan> yeah, got it
1071 2013-09-10 15:50:17 <jgarzik> Each new transaction that arrives is judged by that criteria: it is LESS likely to be mined than these other 100MB of transactions?
1072 2013-09-10 15:50:23 <gmaxwell> michagogo: e.g. one person sent a 0.01 btc input without fee and low priority. Then somehow their dumb ass bci wallet double spend that transaction in an important 3.3 btc transaction which had a decent fee. Two days later neither transaction had gone through.
1073 2013-09-10 15:50:23 saivann has joined
1074 2013-09-10 15:50:25 <michagogo> jgarzik: ...but something that falls below a certain number in the most likely list isn't necessarily spam
1075 2013-09-10 15:50:30 wei_ has quit (Client Quit)
1076 2013-09-10 15:50:48 <gmaxwell> michagogo: the 0.01 was going to take days to go in at best.. the second wouldn't relay at all because it was a double spend.
1077 2013-09-10 15:51:02 <michagogo> gmaxwell: I'm not saying transaction aging is a bad thing
1078 2013-09-10 15:51:28 <michagogo> But I'm still not understanding how having a limit on mempool size will be a good thing
1079 2013-09-10 15:51:32 <jgarzik> michagogo, we are going around in circles :) this scheme basically defines spam. There is no _obligation_ that the network remember spammy transactions. The obligation has always been on the user, to retransmit until confirmed.
1080 2013-09-10 15:51:41 <gmaxwell> michagogo: you'd just perfer the pool to be time limited instead of size? The problem with time limited alone is that its a potential dos vector.
1081 2013-09-10 15:52:01 <jgarzik> functionally, in the field, mempool is memory-limited
1082 2013-09-10 15:52:09 <gmaxwell> michagogo: not needing unbounded storage for other people's unconfirmed txn is a good thing.
1083 2013-09-10 15:52:23 <michagogo> Defining a spammy transaction in terms of "has x transactions ahead of it" seems iffy to me
1084 2013-09-10 15:52:25 <jgarzik> any node operator may certainly choose 1000MB rather than 100MB.. it will be a configurable parameter, I presume.
1085 2013-09-10 15:52:35 <jgarzik> michagogo, it's the definition of a competitive market
1086 2013-09-10 15:52:41 <gmaxwell> Though I dunno if 100 MB is enough. Mempool really shouldn't be in memory, it should be on disk.
1087 2013-09-10 15:52:44 <jgarzik> it is self-selected
1088 2013-09-10 15:52:47 <michagogo> jgarzik: Right, but the node will never see most of the transactions it would otherwise keep
1089 2013-09-10 15:52:58 <jgarzik> michagogo, that's not true at all
1090 2013-09-10 15:53:25 <michagogo> If a transaction is below the 100MB spot on the list
1091 2013-09-10 15:53:40 <michagogo> but still above the 1000MB cutoff...
1092 2013-09-10 15:53:54 <michagogo> And the majority of nodes are running on 100MB...
1093 2013-09-10 15:54:09 <michagogo> They won't relay the transaction to the node that keeps 1000MB
1094 2013-09-10 15:54:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, meh :) Though I think it's fine to define it in terms of days, e.g. 1MB * 144 * 2, plus mempool aging of 48 hours
1095 2013-09-10 15:54:30 thrasher` has joined
1096 2013-09-10 15:54:40 <michagogo> Right now, there's a certain set of definitions as to what's considered spam.
1097 2013-09-10 15:54:41 <jgarzik> michagogo, correct
1098 2013-09-10 15:54:52 <michagogo> So how is it not true at all?
1099 2013-09-10 15:54:55 <jgarzik> michagogo, you want nodes to be able to make their own choices about resources and the network
1100 2013-09-10 15:55:06 <jgarzik> michagogo, and that provides feedback in a dynamic system
1101 2013-09-10 15:55:18 <michagogo> (also: can someone remind me why non-miners keep mempools?)
1102 2013-09-10 15:55:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, 1MB * 144 * 2 sounds good to me.
1103 2013-09-10 15:56:37 <gmaxwell> 08:53 < michagogo> Right now, there's a certain set of definitions as to what's considered spam.
1104 2013-09-10 15:56:40 <gmaxwell> huh? there are?
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1106 2013-09-10 15:56:53 <michagogo> gmaxwell: The relay criteria...
1107 2013-09-10 15:57:05 <gmaxwell> I don't thinks at all a definition of whats considered spam.
1108 2013-09-10 15:57:16 <gmaxwell> Thats "shit we won't relay at all" a lot of it has nothing to do with spam.
1109 2013-09-10 15:57:17 <michagogo> Okay, not "what's considered spam"
1110 2013-09-10 15:57:34 Andrevan has joined
1111 2013-09-10 15:57:39 <gmaxwell> and a limit isn't a permission slip either. :)
1112 2013-09-10 15:57:50 <r0sc0e> hi everybody
1113 2013-09-10 15:58:07 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1114 2013-09-10 15:58:14 <r0sc0e> i have a problem with the bitcoin-qt 0.8.4 client
1115 2013-09-10 15:58:28 <michagogo> r0sc0e: Database corruption message on start?
1116 2013-09-10 15:58:32 <gmaxwell> r0sc0e: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAAS2fgRrgrfmjSKMkDWcqnRNfS_S2pZaCECb7OiaGr3B%2BkMqww%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
1117 2013-09-10 15:58:44 <r0sc0e> it seems that qt is reindexing all
1118 2013-09-10 15:59:07 <gmaxwell> r0sc0e: follow the link
1119 2013-09-10 15:59:08 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: lol that you have that url on speed dial
1120 2013-09-10 15:59:21 <r0sc0e> thanks! :)
1121 2013-09-10 15:59:33 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: I have people emailing me constantly for help.
1122 2013-09-10 16:00:01 <jcorgan> on that subject, have you guys decided on a release plan?
1123 2013-09-10 16:00:21 <michagogo> gmaxwell: is that mailing list post better than https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=290923.0 ?
1124 2013-09-10 16:00:22 bizoro has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1125 2013-09-10 16:00:35 <michagogo> (if so, maybe it should be changed in /topic #bitcoin?)
1126 2013-09-10 16:01:07 moarrr has joined
1127 2013-09-10 16:01:25 <r0sc0e> hm i start the qt-client with these parameters, but it keeps on reindexing
1128 2013-09-10 16:01:29 <r0sc0e> is that correct?
1129 2013-09-10 16:01:55 <gmaxwell> michagogo: yea, is now. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=290923.0
1130 2013-09-10 16:02:01 <jcorgan> r0sc0e: once started, it will need to finish reindexing, but it won't hurt anything
1131 2013-09-10 16:02:04 <gmaxwell> r0sc0e: once you've started with the reindex you're comitted to it.
1132 2013-09-10 16:02:11 <jcorgan> just waste your time
1133 2013-09-10 16:02:28 <michagogo> gmaxwell: What is now?
1134 2013-09-10 16:02:40 <gmaxwell> Can someone write an OSX walkthrough for me? it's something like open a terminal and type open /Applications/bitcoin or something?
1135 2013-09-10 16:02:46 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1136 2013-09-10 16:02:56 <gmaxwell> michagogo: I moved goodbc's windows walkthrough into the top post
1137 2013-09-10 16:03:03 <michagogo> open /Applications/Bitcoin-Qt.app --args -checklevel=2
1138 2013-09-10 16:05:26 <gmaxwell> Thanks.
1139 2013-09-10 16:05:33 <michagogo> gmaxwell: either `open /Applications/Bitcoin-Qt.app --args -checklevel=2` or `/Applications/Bitcoin-Qt.app/Contents/MacOS/Bitcoin-Qt -checklevel=2`
1140 2013-09-10 16:06:48 <saivann> New bitcoin.org FAQ should be merged in two days : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/230
1141 2013-09-10 16:06:54 <saivann> If you want to suggest changes, please comment in the pull request
1142 2013-09-10 16:07:20 <jcorgan> jgarzik gmaxwell: is there any value or risk to mempool aging by itself, as an increment to current functionality, and not part of the bigger "megablock" idea we were discussing here a bit ago?
1143 2013-09-10 16:10:13 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: there is both value and risk.
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1145 2013-09-10 16:10:47 <gmaxwell> Value: being able to fix stuck transactions. Risk: increased exposure to doublespends for transactions that take forever to confirm.
1146 2013-09-10 16:11:43 <gmaxwell> though I don't know how much aging really solves transactions now since it seems that there are bozos who rebroadcast third party transactions
1147 2013-09-10 16:12:06 <gmaxwell> er, solves stuck transactions.
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1149 2013-09-10 16:12:49 <jcorgan> don't see a way to prevent or proscribe that behavior
1150 2013-09-10 16:15:30 <gmaxwell> Well, I know how to make it not problematic, but that has other tradeoffs.
1151 2013-09-10 16:15:45 <gmaxwell> (to make it non-problematic: replace by fees)
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1153 2013-09-10 16:16:42 <gmaxwell> (e.g. oldest higest fee/byte transaction wins, if there is a doublespending conflict in the mempool)
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1155 2013-09-10 16:18:13 <r0sc0e> can anyone tell me a node with good bandwith to sync my qtclient?
1156 2013-09-10 16:19:00 <jcorgan> hmm, compile fail on master with autotools
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1158 2013-09-10 16:19:13 <jcorgan> well, linker fail
1159 2013-09-10 16:19:24 <michagogo> r0sc0e: Sync, or reindex?
1160 2013-09-10 16:19:49 <michagogo> Reindexing is just scanning and reindexing what you already have on disk
1161 2013-09-10 16:20:02 * jcorgan wants me to recompile libleveldb.a with -fPIC to solve
1162 2013-09-10 16:20:57 <jcorgan> known issue?
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1165 2013-09-10 16:22:11 <r0sc0e> michagogo: ah, okay
1166 2013-09-10 16:22:30 <r0sc0e> its not downloading some information from blockchain on reindexing
1167 2013-09-10 16:22:36 <michagogo> Nope.
1168 2013-09-10 16:22:40 <r0sc0e> okay
1169 2013-09-10 16:22:44 <michagogo> r0sc0e: (good thing I remembered your name, or I'd have sent you to download the 9+ GB torrent)
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1173 2013-09-10 16:23:25 <r0sc0e> you remembered my name? ;)
1174 2013-09-10 16:23:53 <jcorgan> interesting, looks like parallel make -j4 failed, but make clean and then single job make is succeeding
1175 2013-09-10 16:24:27 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: I expect it'll fail to but at another point. Some other people were reporting that fPIC needed to be added to cflags.
1176 2013-09-10 16:24:58 <jcorgan> it was linking bitcoind
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1178 2013-09-10 16:25:01 <michagogo> r0sc0e: Well, I recognized it as someone who asked about reindexing a bit ago
1179 2013-09-10 16:25:06 <gmaxwell> there area bunch of problems with the autotools right now, but theuni asked people not to change it out from under him.
1180 2013-09-10 16:25:12 <jcorgan> and complained about a symbol in leveldb code
1181 2013-09-10 16:25:22 <r0sc0e> michagogo: that wasnt me
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1183 2013-09-10 16:25:28 <michagogo> Oh?
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1185 2013-09-10 16:25:34 <r0sc0e> not with reindexing
1186 2013-09-10 16:25:38 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: it's my first time testing it
1187 2013-09-10 16:25:41 <r0sc0e> perhaps with syncing ;)
1188 2013-09-10 16:25:43 <michagogo> [19:00:26] <r0sc0e> hm i start the qt-client with these parameters, but it keeps on reindexing
1189 2013-09-10 16:25:43 <michagogo> [19:00:31] <r0sc0e> is that correct?
1190 2013-09-10 16:25:50 <michagogo> [18:57:46] <r0sc0e> it seems that qt is reindexing all
1191 2013-09-10 16:26:30 <r0sc0e> ah, i thought you mean i asked that few days ago
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1193 2013-09-10 16:26:53 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: it doesn't build at all for me in fedora without a big heap of patches. So every time I want to work on something I have to drop this patch set on and then pull it out of the tree before pushing... but little bumps are expected. :)
1194 2013-09-10 16:27:35 <michagogo> r0sc0e: If someone had asked for a way to speed up syncing with the network, I'd have pointed them to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0;all
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1198 2013-09-10 16:29:00 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: we used autotools for years and years in gnuradio and finally got it tuned very nicely, then switched to cmake and had to start all over again :)
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1201 2013-09-10 16:29:58 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: i don't know if it works, but the compile on ubuntu 12.04/g++4.6/boost 1.48 succeeded
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1207 2013-09-10 16:37:57 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: so far so good
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1239 2013-09-10 17:24:18 <tekkentux> Hi, using getwork how much may the timestamp be varied so that the block is sill accepted?
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1241 2013-09-10 17:25:19 <tekkentux> I know gbt would be the better approach and I want to implement it later, but for now I just want to get some extra nonce the quick and dirty way, cuz I have no time to implement gbt
1242 2013-09-10 17:25:26 <gmaxwell> by bitcoind? a found block will be accepted so long as the timestamp is still valid.
1243 2013-09-10 17:25:43 <tekkentux> by bitcoind and pools
1244 2013-09-10 17:25:44 <gmaxwell> if you're talking about some pool, your freedom in adjusting the timestamp will be limited to none and depends on the pool.
1245 2013-09-10 17:25:54 <tekkentux> ok
1246 2013-09-10 17:26:25 <tekkentux> talking about bitcoind, what does "valid" mean?
1247 2013-09-10 17:27:08 <tekkentux> not in future? not differing to much any how from the data got via getwork? or just dont care as long as the hash meets the target?
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1250 2013-09-10 17:29:02 <michagogo> tekkentux: If you want to change things, use gbt
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1255 2013-09-10 17:35:19 <tekkentux> what about ntimerolling?
1256 2013-09-10 17:36:02 <tekkentux> michagogo, as I said, I cannot implement gbt for now, but it's on my agenda
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1258 2013-09-10 17:37:31 <midnightmagic> another pool?
1259 2013-09-10 17:40:04 <tekkentux> for now I'd just get a little more noce space. so ntimerolling should do that for now, but I'm wondering, if I really must increment it exactly every second, or if I just can vary it whenever my nonce range is finished (that may take more or less than one second). also sending data via network might take a second or more, so there must be some tolerance, is there?
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1274 2013-09-10 18:14:19 <freaksh0> 7
1275 2013-09-10 18:14:29 <freaksh0> hi all :) trying to grok bitcoind
1276 2013-09-10 18:14:37 <michagogo> freaksh0: What about it?
1277 2013-09-10 18:14:44 <freaksh0> where does bitcoind get it's peerlist initially (without specifying)
1278 2013-09-10 18:14:48 <freaksh0> what host
1279 2013-09-10 18:15:17 <michagogo> ;;google site:bitcoin.it satoshi client bootstrapping
1280 2013-09-10 18:15:17 <gribble> Satoshi Client Node Discovery - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery>; Weaknesses - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses>; FAQ - Bitcoin: <https://bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ>
1281 2013-09-10 18:15:24 <michagogo> that first link explains it
1282 2013-09-10 18:15:26 <freaksh0> thanks
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1286 2013-09-10 18:26:27 <tekkentux> so does noone know about the timestamp tolerance thing exactly, or do you just want me to implement gbt at any price? ;)
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1290 2013-09-10 18:31:23 <Luke-Jr> yay, slush figured out the BIP process :P
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1292 2013-09-10 18:32:12 <michagogo> ;;google bip site:it
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1294 2013-09-10 18:32:13 <gribble> Bitcoin Improvement Proposals - Bitcoin: <https://bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Improvement_Proposals>; BIP 0070 - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0070>; BIP 0023 - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0023>
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1303 2013-09-10 18:50:42 <sipa> tekkentux: not more than two hours in the future, and not before or equal to the median of the timestamps of the 11 previous blocks
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1312 2013-09-10 19:05:05 <tekkentux> sipa, thx, it this general standard or just according to bitcoind?
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1314 2013-09-10 19:07:07 <michagogo> Protocol.
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1316 2013-09-10 19:08:02 <gmaxwell> tekkentux: it's an algorithmic rule of the bitcoin blockchain.
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1339 2013-09-10 19:47:26 <tekkentux> thx
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1341 2013-09-10 19:47:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: technically, only the above-median-of-11 is a protocol rule
1342 2013-09-10 19:47:55 <sipa> the otherpart is just locally enforced policy
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1345 2013-09-10 19:48:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think it's a protocol rule, it's just a part the requires aux data from the user. You still have to feed in the correct aux data to be safe.
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1349 2013-09-10 19:49:04 <tekkentux> so pools should also not have problems with random timestamp, as long as its not more than the two hours in future and not before the median-11
1350 2013-09-10 19:49:07 <tekkentux> right?
1351 2013-09-10 19:49:38 <tekkentux> cuz whats valid for the block chain should be valid for the pool?
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1355 2013-09-10 19:52:57 <gmaxwell> No.
1356 2013-09-10 19:53:14 <sipa> pools decide for themself if they like your block
1357 2013-09-10 19:53:19 <gmaxwell> 10:24 <@gmaxwell> if you're talking about some pool, your freedom in adjusting the timestamp will be limited to none and depends on the pool.
1358 2013-09-10 19:53:37 <gmaxwell> There are some pools which will reject work if the timestamp is different at all.
1359 2013-09-10 19:53:50 <sipa> indeed
1360 2013-09-10 19:53:58 <gmaxwell> There are many (most?) who will reject work unless if is very close to accurate.
1361 2013-09-10 19:54:47 <tekkentux> ok thx
1362 2013-09-10 19:56:33 <tekkentux> k I got that
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1365 2013-09-10 19:56:58 <tekkentux> but just for interest, why would the pool reject work, that is valid to the network?
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1369 2013-09-10 19:58:45 <gmaxwell> tekkentux: because sending wrong times to the network is bad for the network... also simplifies their share validation, makes some dos attacks a bit harder.
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1388 2013-09-10 20:19:57 <tekkentux> ok could make sense
1389 2013-09-10 20:19:58 <tekkentux> thx
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1409 2013-09-10 20:31:58 <Subo1977> jcorgan: solved?
1410 2013-09-10 20:32:03 <frb> Are Bitcoin signed messages limited to 256 characters?
1411 2013-09-10 20:32:12 <jcorgan> what
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1413 2013-09-10 20:32:26 <Subo1977> leveldb -fPIC
1414 2013-09-10 20:33:07 <frb> It seems to me like the message format is "Bitcoin Signed Message:\n{length}{message}".format(length=chr(len(message)), message)
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1416 2013-09-10 20:33:17 <frb> (pseudocode there)
1417 2013-09-10 20:33:25 <frb> Then SHA256 is run on that
1418 2013-09-10 20:33:41 <frb> So, since chr can't be more than 256, the limit seems to be 256. The question is why this choice was made
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1420 2013-09-10 20:34:28 <sipa> frb: no, the length is encoded as a bitcoin varint
1421 2013-09-10 20:34:42 <sipa> id it's above 252, it requires multiple bytes
1422 2013-09-10 20:34:54 <frb> OK, so this implementation is bugged
1423 2013-09-10 20:35:10 <frb> (this being Electrum)
1424 2013-09-10 20:35:14 <sipa> oh
1425 2013-09-10 20:36:14 <sipa> if it's above 252, it should be encoded as 253, length & 255, length / 256
1426 2013-09-10 20:36:25 <sipa> which works up to length 65535
1427 2013-09-10 20:37:44 <frb> So just to make sure, for the number 340, we'd have one char with value 256, then after that one char with value 84?
1428 2013-09-10 20:37:56 <jcorgan> Subo1977: i suspect that was an artifact of doing a parallel compile, a make clean and single job make went fine
1429 2013-09-10 20:38:01 <sipa> frb: no
1430 2013-09-10 20:38:12 <frb> oh
1431 2013-09-10 20:38:13 <jcorgan> so there is probably a race condition in the compile rules in autotools
1432 2013-09-10 20:38:43 <cfields> jcorgan: mind expanding on that?
1433 2013-09-10 20:39:08 <jcorgan> earlier today i did a make -j8 on current master using autotools
1434 2013-09-10 20:39:09 <sipa> frb: 3 bytes; the first is always 253, the second is the length divided by 256, the third the remainder of division by 256
1435 2013-09-10 20:39:28 <cfields> jcorgan: did you 'make clean' before the first autotools build?
1436 2013-09-10 20:39:31 <jcorgan> it failed when linking bitcoind with a message whining about leveldb.o
1437 2013-09-10 20:39:33 <gmaxwell> frb: bitcoin varint isn't quite that (what you're actually describing there sounds like xiph-lacing which is the varable length scheme used in ogg)
1438 2013-09-10 20:39:34 <jcorgan> yes
1439 2013-09-10 20:39:42 grau_ has joined
1440 2013-09-10 20:39:46 <gmaxwell> cfields: you live!
1441 2013-09-10 20:39:55 <frb> Thanks for the help :)
1442 2013-09-10 20:40:00 <cfields> gmaxwell: heh, back from long weekend :)
1443 2013-09-10 20:40:15 <cfields> gmaxwell: i warned you that merging autotools before i left might be unwise ;)
1444 2013-09-10 20:40:26 <jcorgan> as I've seen similar linking issues with parallel make in another project, i tried make clean and single job make
1445 2013-09-10 20:40:31 <gmaxwell> cfields: so. I'm getting tired of manually mergeing in and unmerging luke's patches in order to get this stuff building on fedora. Whats in git now cannot find bdb.
1446 2013-09-10 20:40:33 <Subo1977> i had the same problem after change from make to autotools.... i deletet /bitcoin and start over. this solved it for me
1447 2013-09-10 20:40:45 grau_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1448 2013-09-10 20:40:52 <gmaxwell> cfields: can you please mindmeld with luke (eww) and find something you both agree on?
1449 2013-09-10 20:40:58 <cfields> gmaxwell: ok. i have a proposal, but i have a feeling it's going to be bikeshed-city
1450 2013-09-10 20:41:09 <jcorgan> but, the compile did succeed and both bitcoind and bitcoin-qt work fine
1451 2013-09-10 20:41:19 <gmaxwell> I don't think people really care to bikeshed this stuff, we want it to work robustly. :)
1452 2013-09-10 20:41:41 <cfields> gmaxwell: the only realistic way to handle this, and the way that most larger projects handle it, is to include the bdb source in-repo
1453 2013-09-10 20:41:55 <cfields> especially if only a single version is supported
1454 2013-09-10 20:41:59 <jcorgan> Subo1977: I would bet my life on me having actually done a make clean before the first autotools make, but i'm pretty diligent about things like that
1455 2013-09-10 20:42:10 <gmaxwell> cfields: oh. No. We're not going to do that at this point, I think. We're in the slow process of removing bdb.
1456 2013-09-10 20:42:16 <jcorgan> s/would/wouldn't/
1457 2013-09-10 20:42:24 <gmaxwell> too late, life is betted.
1458 2013-09-10 20:42:44 grau has joined
1459 2013-09-10 20:42:54 <cfields> gmaxwell: ok then. i'm ok with adding Luke-Jr's change if bdb is on its way out...
1460 2013-09-10 20:43:19 <cfields> but imo that's a huge kludge. Nothing against his implementation, it's pretty elegant all things considered
1461 2013-09-10 20:43:44 da2ce7 has joined
1462 2013-09-10 20:43:46 <gmaxwell> cfields: I haven't even looked at the implementation. .. I mean, I value my sanity, so I limit exposure to configure.ac from any source.
1463 2013-09-10 20:44:29 <cfields> jcorgan / Subo1977: the only explanation i can come up with is that you guys didn't clean (or maybe 'make clean' didn't handle the migration very well). The issue is an old object being linked in
1464 2013-09-10 20:44:55 <jcorgan> sounds reasonable
1465 2013-09-10 20:44:58 grau_ has joined
1466 2013-09-10 20:45:12 <gmaxwell> But I understand that it tries to find 4.8 and failing that it whines and lets you know that you can give it some argument to allow a later version? The problem is that the post 4.8 is not well tested with bitcoin, and the files are not bidirectionally compatible ... which is a really unwelcome surprise when you find you can't read your wallet.
1467 2013-09-10 20:45:15 Application has joined
1468 2013-09-10 20:45:28 <cfields> jcorgan: meaning: i don't think it'd be possible for you to recreate once that object has been nuked. If so, there's definitely something that needs to be fixed
1469 2013-09-10 20:45:28 <Subo1977> cfields: maybe
1470 2013-09-10 20:45:37 <gmaxwell> oh oh jcorgan you had a build fail with leveldb? yea the migtration to autotools is not clean.
1471 2013-09-10 20:45:48 <sipa> same, it failed for me once too
1472 2013-09-10 20:45:53 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: you basically need to manually delete things, or do a clean checkout.. or pray.
1473 2013-09-10 20:45:54 <sipa> it worked on a second try
1474 2013-09-10 20:46:05 <sipa> it was with a clean leveldb for me, afaik
1475 2013-09-10 20:46:11 <gmaxwell> I don't consider this a major issue but we'll need to release note it.
1476 2013-09-10 20:46:11 <wumpus> yeah you have to clean leveldb manually before you can transition an existing tree to autotools
1477 2013-09-10 20:46:23 <sipa> yes, i had to do that too
1478 2013-09-10 20:46:24 <cfields> hmm, which object hangs around? libleveldb.a ?
1479 2013-09-10 20:46:25 <jcorgan> ld complained about a symbol in leveldb not being portable or something or another, and that I needed to compile with -fPIC
1480 2013-09-10 20:46:36 <wumpus> jcorgan: same here
1481 2013-09-10 20:46:42 <sipa> but even then, it failed to build the first time
1482 2013-09-10 20:46:54 <cfields> but nobody's hit it after a successful build, correct?
1483 2013-09-10 20:47:04 <wumpus> it's best to recommend people to clone a new tree
1484 2013-09-10 20:47:14 <jcorgan> ok, all evidence is in that I did *not* do make clean first before updating git
1485 2013-09-10 20:47:18 <jcorgan> now the status of my life is in question
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1487 2013-09-10 20:47:27 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1488 2013-09-10 20:47:50 <cfields> gmaxwell: have you looked into how other packaged find bdb in fedora?
1489 2013-09-10 20:47:55 <cfields> possible they package a .pc ?
1490 2013-09-10 20:48:11 <cfields> *other packages
1491 2013-09-10 20:48:30 <wumpus> recommending out-of-tree building would be even better, but I understand that we cannot do it due to the problems with it with leveldb
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1494 2013-09-10 20:48:39 <wumpus> always that leveldb...
1495 2013-09-10 20:49:06 <jcorgan> wumpus: what is the issue? I consider VPATH builds almost mandatory
1496 2013-09-10 20:49:08 <gmaxwell> cfields: so I'm looking at libdb4-4.8.30-10.fc19.x86_64 and libdb4-devel and there is nothing but a couple .sos a couple .h files and a license/readme.
1497 2013-09-10 20:49:30 <jcorgan> cfields: yes, it was libleveldb.a
1498 2013-09-10 20:49:33 grau_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1499 2013-09-10 20:49:51 <gmaxwell> so fedora isn't packaging pkgconfig stuff for it.
1500 2013-09-10 20:49:52 <wumpus> jcorgan: leveldb cannot do out of tree build, and we build leveldb as part of our build process, so the only hack to do it would be to copy leveldb entirely to the build directory
1501 2013-09-10 20:49:53 <cfields> gmaxwell: ok. and the headers install to a subdir i suppose?
1502 2013-09-10 20:50:02 <gmaxwell> cfields: yep /usr/include/libdb4/db.h
1503 2013-09-10 20:50:12 <cfields> heh, libdb4. that's a new one
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1505 2013-09-10 20:50:33 <jcorgan> wumpus: ok
1506 2013-09-10 20:50:34 <gmaxwell> likewise: /usr/include/libdb4/db_cxx.h
1507 2013-09-10 20:50:45 <jcorgan> wumpus: what doesn't work for leveldb out of tree
1508 2013-09-10 20:50:52 <gmaxwell> cfields: luke's stuff finds it at least.
1509 2013-09-10 20:50:56 <cfields> I suppose they're not abi compatible across major releases? eg db46 vs db48
1510 2013-09-10 20:51:12 <wumpus> jcorgan: the leveldb build system doesn't do it, don't know the details, if you copy leveldb manually to the build dir it works right now
1511 2013-09-10 20:51:26 <cfields> (not in terms of bitcoin, just generally speaking re abi)
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1513 2013-09-10 20:51:30 <gmaxwell> cfields: they're hardly compatible at all across releases, not abi compatible, not file format compatible except one way.
1514 2013-09-10 20:51:37 <jcorgan> oh, the bitcoin autotools just invoke a preexisting leveldb build script?
1515 2013-09-10 20:51:42 <wumpus> yes
1516 2013-09-10 20:51:42 <gmaxwell> across major releases.
1517 2013-09-10 20:51:53 <jcorgan> eww
1518 2013-09-10 20:51:58 <cfields> gmaxwell: hmm, strange that fedora seems to imply that then. can you have 2 installed side-by-side ?
1519 2013-09-10 20:52:27 <wumpus> right, feel free to volunteer some other way to do it, and keep it up to date with leveldb changes...
1520 2013-09-10 20:52:34 <cfields> jcorgan: there's no alternative beyond adding our own make for it, which i elected not to do
1521 2013-09-10 20:52:40 <jcorgan> wumpus: just catching up on this here. has anyone debugged the leveldb
1522 2013-09-10 20:52:42 <Luke-Jr> .
1523 2013-09-10 20:53:21 <cfields> gmaxwell: seems the only reasonable thing is to take Luke-Jr's fix for that, then
1524 2013-09-10 20:53:25 <cfields> Luke-Jr: thanks for that, btw
1525 2013-09-10 20:53:25 <gmaxwell> cfields: Yes, you can. I do in fact, though I don't have the C++ stuff for libdb5 installed.
1526 2013-09-10 20:53:35 <Luke-Jr> cfields: np
1527 2013-09-10 20:54:06 <cfields> gmaxwell: can you have db46 and db48 both installed?
1528 2013-09-10 20:54:11 <gmaxwell> (which, I assume is why it just fails to build for me instead of taking the wrong one⦠whew)
1529 2013-09-10 20:54:25 <wumpus> cfields: right, as that would be a maintenance nightmare
1530 2013-09-10 20:54:37 <gmaxwell> cfields: hm. I don't know if I can.
1531 2013-09-10 20:55:18 grau has joined
1532 2013-09-10 20:55:35 <Luke-Jr> cfields: pretty sure I can
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1534 2013-09-10 20:56:50 <jcorgan> so on the switch to autotools issue, if i had done a make clean before git pull, would everything have worked?
1535 2013-09-10 20:57:35 Gues_____ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1536 2013-09-10 20:57:42 <Luke-Jr> cfields: btw, in case it wasn't obvious, the realpath I'm using in that commit is NOT the /usr/bin/ one ; it's a Make builtin
1537 2013-09-10 20:57:53 <frb> I'm still not sure why I can't generate valid signatures. `"\x18Bitcoin Signed Message:\n" + chr(len(message)) + message` is all I've gotten to work, but according to sipa this format is wrong
1538 2013-09-10 20:58:11 <cfields> Luke-Jr: understood, but that syntax has lots of unintended consequences
1539 2013-09-10 20:58:12 <frb> Yet, bitcoin-qt verifies signatures made this way
1540 2013-09-10 20:58:36 <Luke-Jr> cfields: hmm, then I may need to break it up in an ugly way :/
1541 2013-09-10 20:58:41 <cfields> Luke-Jr: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2985 as my overreaching to that problem
1542 2013-09-10 20:58:44 <Luke-Jr> cfields: the other parts need to be relative for reasons I forget
1543 2013-09-10 20:58:53 <cfields> *overreaching solution
1544 2013-09-10 20:59:01 <gmaxwell> frb: "I can't generate " "bitcoin-qt verifies" huh?
1545 2013-09-10 20:59:19 <frb> gmaxwell: I can't generate anything longer than 256 characters this way, I mean
1546 2013-09-10 20:59:33 <Luke-Jr> cfields: hmm, that might be a good solution too
1547 2013-09-10 20:59:35 <frb> a signature for anything longer than*
1548 2013-09-10 21:00:48 <frb> I think I got it
1549 2013-09-10 21:00:53 egis has joined
1550 2013-09-10 21:00:59 <Luke-Jr> brb
1551 2013-09-10 21:01:19 tgerring has joined
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1553 2013-09-10 21:01:42 <gmaxwell> frb: sipa above told you that its a bitcoin varint.
1554 2013-09-10 21:01:54 <gmaxwell> chr(len(message)) < not varint encoding.
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1561 2013-09-10 21:03:14 <cfields> gmaxwell: so for bdb, i say go ahead and go with Luke-Jr's. I'd prefer to not do the others just yet, but I understand the urgency of that one
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1567 2013-09-10 21:05:08 <gmaxwell> cfields: as far as the other stuff... building with no optimization at all is bad, certantly as a default. There are a bunch of useful warnings that you don't get at O0 because they require value analysis, and some of the security hardening doesn't work at O0 (also because it needs value analysis).
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1572 2013-09-10 21:06:41 <cfields> gmaxwell: that one i don't understand. optim is always enabled here
1573 2013-09-10 21:07:03 <cfields> gmaxwell: i understand that i'm wrong somehow, just not seeing where
1574 2013-09-10 21:07:08 <warren> O2 was default for bitcoin builds all these years
1575 2013-09-10 21:07:14 tgerring has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1576 2013-09-10 21:07:22 <warren> when I run master ./configure now, -O is entirely missing
1577 2013-09-10 21:07:53 <gmaxwell> cfields: as warren says, no -O at all for me.
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1579 2013-09-10 21:08:36 <warren> cfields: which means a great many compiler warnings as FORTIFY_SOURCE doesn't work at all when you're lacking -O
1580 2013-09-10 21:08:38 <cfields> ah i see, getting different results on osx i think. possible that it ignores the cxxflags reset
1581 2013-09-10 21:08:51 <gmaxwell> cfields: normally configure.ac has a AC_PROG_CXX or whatever and that sets an -O2 -g by default.
1582 2013-09-10 21:08:57 <cfields> gmaxwell: yep, got it. How bout just add -02 back into the debug flags?
1583 2013-09-10 21:09:18 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1585 2013-09-10 21:10:02 <gmaxwell> cfields: normally when you do an explict debug build (which shouldn't be the default) you want an O1 (or O0) build, because O2 has obsecured some element of the program flow and frustrated debugging.. though thats less and less common these days.
1586 2013-09-10 21:10:51 <warren> IMHO, -O2 should be default like bitcoin always has been. add an option to drop down to -O1 if people really need it.
1587 2013-09-10 21:11:02 <cfields> gmaxwell: in this case i was trying to mirror the old makesystem (fell flat in this case, by the looks). I have no preference at all, i'm ok with whatever you guys prefer
1588 2013-09-10 21:12:06 <warren> cfields: whcih parts of luke-jr are you pulling in? the libdb4 path alone is not sufficient to build bitcoin-qt on fedora
1589 2013-09-10 21:12:07 <cfields> gmaxwell: this should be all it takes to get the old behavior back, if that's what's desired: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=V3u8TrLe
1590 2013-09-10 21:12:21 <cfields> warren: what else is needed?
1591 2013-09-10 21:12:24 <gmaxwell> cfields: yea, hm. Not sure where you got the idea that the default wasn't -O2 -g before. In any case, no worries. I do think we want -O2 -g by default and an explicit make debug that does -O0 -g.
1592 2013-09-10 21:12:39 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1594 2013-09-10 21:13:17 <cfields> gmaxwell: no, i'm saying that it was -O2 before and meant to keep it that way, but goofed and left it out
1595 2013-09-10 21:13:24 <cfields> *and i meant
1596 2013-09-10 21:13:44 <gmaxwell> cfields: AH!
1597 2013-09-10 21:14:05 <warren> cfields: https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/024bca2248e8fb6bcee899e3f5b4b4582533e2cb
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1599 2013-09-10 21:14:43 <warren> cfields: I recommend this, and the -qt5 variants, which with master don't work 100% but can be fixed. I need to uninstall qt4 headers for qt5 tests to build without problem.
1600 2013-09-10 21:15:01 <cfields> warren: that's fine for now. I have a qt5 tree around that uses some of the qt tools to determine which is active, then acts appropriately
1601 2013-09-10 21:15:16 <cfields> but that's going to take some time
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1603 2013-09-10 21:15:26 <warren> cfields: make qt4 preferred before qt5 until qt5 becomes default in gitian, then flip their preference order
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1605 2013-09-10 21:16:20 <cfields> warren: the only choice is to use the "current" one, since some of the qt utils don't have -qt5 variants
1606 2013-09-10 21:16:38 <warren> they don't?
1607 2013-09-10 21:16:40 <warren> they exist here
1608 2013-09-10 21:16:43 <warren> which don't?
1609 2013-09-10 21:16:47 <sipa> is the current source qt5 compatible already?
1610 2013-09-10 21:17:03 <cfields> sipa: yea, source itself builds fine
1611 2013-09-10 21:17:06 <sipa> ok
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1614 2013-09-10 21:17:20 <sipa> i think using whatever your system has configured as active is fine
1615 2013-09-10 21:17:23 <sipa> as we support both
1616 2013-09-10 21:17:31 <sipa> and in gitian the environment is controlled anyway
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1618 2013-09-10 21:17:40 <cfields> warren: i think it was either moc/rcc
1619 2013-09-10 21:18:05 <warren> cfields: they all exist here
1620 2013-09-10 21:18:42 <cfields> warren: might be patched in by the distro. there's an official response saying that there won't be a -qt5 variant, in the case where i needed it
1621 2013-09-10 21:18:44 <warren> [warren@localhost bin]$ ls moc-qt* rcc* lrelease-qt* uic-qt*
1622 2013-09-10 21:18:44 <warren> lrelease-qt4 lrelease-qt5 moc-qt4 moc-qt5 rcc rcc-qt5 uic-qt4 uic-qt5
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1624 2013-09-10 21:19:12 <cfields> warren: ah, maybe it was that rcc has no rcc-qt4, then
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1628 2013-09-10 21:19:36 <warren> cfields: it works here, just master's current build successfully makes qt5 bitcoin-qt but screws up in test building unless qt4 is removed.
1629 2013-09-10 21:19:47 <sipa> cfields: by the way, thanks for all the autotools work already; it has some rough rdges still, but i'm very happy it was merged
1630 2013-09-10 21:19:55 <warren> cfields: google indicates that one distro has a rcc-qt4
1631 2013-09-10 21:20:12 <cfields> sipa: np. i anticipated becoming a hated man around here ;)
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1635 2013-09-10 21:21:23 <sipa> haha
1636 2013-09-10 21:21:25 <cfields> gmaxwell: I propose simply this: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=V3u8TrLe until everyone agrees on how to handle the different configs
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1639 2013-09-10 21:21:34 <warren> cfields: are you pulling luke-jr's entire bdb commit?
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1641 2013-09-10 21:22:24 <cfields> warren: i've recommended that gmaxwell do so, that's the best i can do :)
1642 2013-09-10 21:22:25 <sipa> -g -ggdb, isn't that redundant?
1643 2013-09-10 21:22:42 <cfields> sipa: leftover from the old make..
1644 2013-09-10 21:22:43 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1645 2013-09-10 21:22:47 <sipa> ok
1646 2013-09-10 21:23:11 <cfields> -ggdb isn't portable in theory, but i think the big compilers deal with it, at least
1647 2013-09-10 21:23:18 <sipa> right
1648 2013-09-10 21:23:33 <sipa> would -g0 make sense for release?
1649 2013-09-10 21:23:50 <sipa> as it means much smaller bimaries
1650 2013-09-10 21:24:12 <cfields> sipa: my basic plan is: 1: get autotools merged, emulating the old stuff. 2: fix up snags enough to get everyone building again. 3: actually rethink how builds should work and fix them up properly
1651 2013-09-10 21:24:38 <sipa> anyway, either is fine to me
1652 2013-09-10 21:24:46 <sipa> great
1653 2013-09-10 21:25:03 <cfields> at this point we're at 2, and i'm happy to shove in whatever gets things building again, with the understanding that it can/will be revisited
1654 2013-09-10 21:25:15 <sipa> sounds good
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1656 2013-09-10 21:25:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: ideally we should split the debug symbols out for release builds so they're still available even if we don't ship them.
1657 2013-09-10 21:25:25 <sipa> right
1658 2013-09-10 21:26:16 <cfields> yep, that's on my list
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1663 2013-09-10 21:31:25 <sipa> i rebased bitcoin-on-libsecp256k1 in the car today, but didn't push it anywhere yet
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1666 2013-09-10 21:33:10 <cfields> gmaxwell: mind pulling in those 2 from Luke-jr to get fedora building again, then? I think that suffices while we discuss the others?
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1682 2013-09-10 21:40:22 <warren> cfields: regarding bitcoin oin libsecp256k1, it would be very nice if autotools handled that in such a way that it builds in gitian
1683 2013-09-10 21:41:36 <cfields> warren: is that planned to land in .9?
1684 2013-09-10 21:41:41 <gmaxwell> cfields: which commits are you planning to pull?
1685 2013-09-10 21:42:02 stochasm has joined
1686 2013-09-10 21:42:07 <warren> cfields: dunno, for now just apply needed autotools commits to sipa's branch
1687 2013-09-10 21:42:09 CheckDavid has joined
1688 2013-09-10 21:42:19 <warren> cfields: sipa mentioned he's asking experts to audit secp256k1
1689 2013-09-10 21:42:50 Neil has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1690 2013-09-10 21:42:52 yano has quit (Ping timeout: 624 seconds)
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1692 2013-09-10 21:43:39 <cfields> gmaxwell: f1c8e41 and 024bca2
1693 2013-09-10 21:43:46 <gmaxwell> cfields: k.
1694 2013-09-10 21:43:47 <gmaxwell> checking
1695 2013-09-10 21:44:01 Zoo has joined
1696 2013-09-10 21:44:07 <cfields> warren: other stuff has priority, unless sipa asks to have it added in
1697 2013-09-10 21:44:16 CheckDavid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1698 2013-09-10 21:44:50 <warren> cfields: nobody will test it if they can't build it
1699 2013-09-10 21:45:02 <gmaxwell> This is not a priority now.
1700 2013-09-10 21:45:06 <warren> right
1701 2013-09-10 21:45:09 <cfields> gmaxwell: note that the qt change is temporary pending more robust qt5 handling
1702 2013-09-10 21:45:32 <warren> gmaxwell: do we intend on sticking with qt4 for 0.9?
1703 2013-09-10 21:46:25 tgerring has joined
1704 2013-09-10 21:46:43 <gmaxwell> warren: I have no opinion.
1705 2013-09-10 21:47:26 <cfields> gmaxwell: want me to pull em out into another PR to get the pull-tester to weigh in? or maybe have Luke-Jr do so since it's his work?
1706 2013-09-10 21:49:58 <gmaxwell> sorry, one sec. I have crazy reporters who are trying to misreport on the issue from the other day.
1707 2013-09-10 21:51:33 <cfields> gmaxwell: actually, i've only looked over it and seen the +1's. I'd actually like to give it a shot as well
1708 2013-09-10 21:51:38 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1709 2013-09-10 21:51:50 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: ihas NSA planted a backdoor in SHA256?
1710 2013-09-10 21:52:49 CheckDavid has joined
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1712 2013-09-10 21:54:18 <gmaxwell> cfields: compiles for me with those two commits. (appears to... takes a long time, something about this change made the builds _massively_ slower for me, but I figured I'd worry about that once everything else was fixed)
1713 2013-09-10 21:54:34 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1714 2013-09-10 21:56:16 Neil has joined
1715 2013-09-10 21:56:32 <gmaxwell> omg shoot me now
1716 2013-09-10 21:56:34 <warren> yeah, builds are wayyy slower now
1717 2013-09-10 21:56:42 <cfields> gmaxwell: probably just busts ccache. takes that long the second time?
1718 2013-09-10 21:57:35 <warren> cfields: on fedora ccache is used automatically for any call to gcc or g++ if it is installed
1719 2013-09-10 21:57:55 <gmaxwell> cfields: it's a mixture of busting ccache, and the recursive make being slower, and also always building -qt and test-bitcoin. I suspect there is something wrong that makes it bust cache anytime there is any commit, and not just for things that changed, but as I said... I'll whine later.
1720 2013-09-10 21:58:00 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1722 2013-09-10 21:58:11 <gmaxwell> I won't forget about this.
1723 2013-09-10 21:58:20 <gmaxwell> cfields: I confirm builds and runs with those two commits.
1724 2013-09-10 21:58:29 <gmaxwell> cfields: when you're happy ask luke to split them.
1725 2013-09-10 21:58:32 <cfields> warren: yes, but when you change configure, it invalidates the cache and each builds clean
1726 2013-09-10 21:58:50 <gmaxwell> cfields: that shouldn't be necessary.
1727 2013-09-10 21:59:00 <cfields> sec, phone
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1729 2013-09-10 22:00:39 Application has joined
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1731 2013-09-10 22:02:39 <Luke-Jr> cfields: gmaxwell: ?
1732 2013-09-10 22:03:58 <warren> Luke-Jr: cfields wants f1c8e41 and 024bca2 split into its own PR, the remaining needs more discussion
1733 2013-09-10 22:04:14 asuk has joined
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1735 2013-09-10 22:06:04 <Luke-Jr> warren: it's broken without at least 6232b9b
1736 2013-09-10 22:06:07 btcbtc has joined
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1738 2013-09-10 22:06:36 <cfields> please don't pull that one
1739 2013-09-10 22:07:34 <Luke-Jr> cfields: why not?
1740 2013-09-10 22:07:48 <Luke-Jr> if there's a problem on some obscure platform, it can still be fixed later..
1741 2013-09-10 22:08:06 <Luke-Jr> it's not like any of this has to be the final release code
1742 2013-09-10 22:08:18 <Luke-Jr> the important thing is that it's better than it was before
1743 2013-09-10 22:09:11 <Luke-Jr> in the meantime, it should be fixed for common build environments
1744 2013-09-10 22:09:34 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1745 2013-09-10 22:10:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I've chopped the user-overridden CXXFLAGS fix for further discussion, but I don't see any reason to object to the first 4 commits
1746 2013-09-10 22:10:29 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1748 2013-09-10 22:11:17 imton has joined
1749 2013-09-10 22:11:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I just want it building for me as soon as possible, those two are sufficient for me. Mostly I want to seperate out the shit-needed-to-make-it-build-for-someone with the other changes that can be massaged to a consensus version.
1750 2013-09-10 22:11:40 <gmaxwell> If it needs another commit to build for someone point it out.
1751 2013-09-10 22:12:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I need the 3 to build and run test_bitcoin
1752 2013-09-10 22:12:15 Gnaf has joined
1753 2013-09-10 22:12:22 <Luke-Jr> (the 4th is just a doc update)
1754 2013-09-10 22:12:38 Gnaf has quit (Changing host)
1755 2013-09-10 22:12:38 Gnaf has joined
1756 2013-09-10 22:12:57 <cfields> Luke-Jr: because it doesn't take build/source dir into consideration, and appears to break out-of-tree builds
1757 2013-09-10 22:13:02 <sipa> cfields, warren: libsecp256k1 has no priority for now, and won't be anytime soon in bitcoin
1758 2013-09-10 22:13:13 <cfields> please just use abs_top_srcdir
1759 2013-09-10 22:13:29 <Luke-Jr> cfields: out-of-tree builds are already broken
1760 2013-09-10 22:13:32 plaprade has joined
1761 2013-09-10 22:13:34 <warren> sipa: no progress on the audit I guess?
1762 2013-09-10 22:13:37 <Luke-Jr> cfields: using abs_top_srcdir breaks the build entirely
1763 2013-09-10 22:14:38 <sipa> warren: no, I haven't spent time on it at all
1764 2013-09-10 22:14:43 <warren> sipa: I only suggested making it buildable on all target platforms so people will actually test it. can't test what they can't build.
1765 2013-09-10 22:15:10 <CodeShark> I'll test it
1766 2013-09-10 22:15:12 <CodeShark> :)
1767 2013-09-10 22:15:39 <sipa> it's not testing i need right now (not that it would harm, but i'm fairly confident it works - what i don't know is if there are no security holes)
1768 2013-09-10 22:16:22 <CodeShark> sipa: security holes are more of an issue for signing than verification - I guess the biggest threat from verification would be rejection of valid signatures
1769 2013-09-10 22:16:47 <gmaxwell> ...
1770 2013-09-10 22:16:54 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
1771 2013-09-10 22:17:03 <CodeShark> err, sorry, I mistyped
1772 2013-09-10 22:17:04 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you mean a fork being created and the theft of millions of dollars of coin.. no risk at all.
1773 2013-09-10 22:17:05 <CodeShark> I mean, verification isn't prone to sidechannel attacks
1774 2013-09-10 22:17:23 <sipa> right
1775 2013-09-10 22:17:33 <gmaxwell> Sure, verification isn't prone to side channel attacks, but correctness is very important. :P
1776 2013-09-10 22:17:39 <CodeShark> yes, of course
1777 2013-09-10 22:17:43 <sipa> signing is much harder to get securely implemented
1778 2013-09-10 22:17:49 <gmaxwell> And yea, the code is side-channel vulnerable for signing.
1779 2013-09-10 22:17:58 <gmaxwell> then again so is the openssl code.
1780 2013-09-10 22:17:59 <sipa> but the risk of a bug in verification can be just as horrible
1781 2013-09-10 22:18:26 <sipa> it's actually far less prone to timing attacks than openssl already
1782 2013-09-10 22:18:38 <sipa> but it is far from guaranteed constant time
1783 2013-09-10 22:19:23 <CodeShark> I have a constant time signing implementation, but it's slow
1784 2013-09-10 22:19:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: though for deployment we could do something ... crude like validate with libsecp256k1 and then only check with openssl if libsecp256k1 rejects. This means that nodes configured thusly would be equal to strictly more accepting, so its less of a fork risk.
1785 2013-09-10 22:20:00 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: can you mindmeld with the wallet makers I think they're happily writing non-constant time signers.
1786 2013-09-10 22:20:07 <gmaxwell> er hardware wallet.
1787 2013-09-10 22:21:11 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1788 2013-09-10 22:21:37 <Luke-Jr> now I don't seem to be able to reproduce whatever problem I was having with abs_top_srcdir
1789 2013-09-10 22:21:59 <CodeShark> I'm not sure how to implement a fast modular inverse in constant time
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1793 2013-09-10 22:22:13 <CodeShark> exponentiation works but is far slower
1794 2013-09-10 22:22:51 <CodeShark> I do know how to implement group operations in constant time, though - sipa and I went over that stuff a few months ago
1795 2013-09-10 22:23:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: would computing the inverse of a bitflipped copy of the value concurrently make it constant time?
1796 2013-09-10 22:24:18 <CodeShark> concurrently?
1797 2013-09-10 22:24:20 BenderCoin has joined
1798 2013-09-10 22:24:23 <cfields> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/b4d8d03b86405193e79310231a2d7ce3b636d554
1799 2013-09-10 22:24:35 <cfields> verified playing nice with distcheck
1800 2013-09-10 22:25:18 <Luke-Jr> cfields: thanks
1801 2013-09-10 22:26:16 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: if that idea worked it would work sequentially too, but might still leave power analysis.
1802 2013-09-10 22:26:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: what if someone has a pathologocal script like Op_VERIFY OP_NOT ?
1803 2013-09-10 22:26:47 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: the problem is that the branching patterns depend on the input
1804 2013-09-10 22:26:57 <cfields> Luke-Jr: ok with that? reason it matters is that the testers use some of the 'dist/distcheck/etc' targets, in order that the proper files make it into the release tarball
1805 2013-09-10 22:27:18 <Luke-Jr> cfields: testing now
1806 2013-09-10 22:27:29 <CodeShark> one approach might be no op iterations
1807 2013-09-10 22:28:13 <sipa> CodeShark: sounds near impossible to do right
1808 2013-09-10 22:28:32 <sipa> as the timing of those are likely very arxhitecture dependent
1809 2013-09-10 22:28:44 msvb-lab has joined
1810 2013-09-10 22:28:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT OP_VERIFY ... indeed. I am glad you are so smart.
1811 2013-09-10 22:28:53 <CodeShark> sipa: the no op iterations would still need to apply the same hardware instructions
1812 2013-09-10 22:29:04 <CodeShark> they would just do it on dummy data
1813 2013-09-10 22:29:10 <gmaxwell> now I need to go write an output like that.. Only valid if your signature is wrong. 0_o
1814 2013-09-10 22:29:46 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1815 2013-09-10 22:30:05 <CodeShark> dummy data could be conditionally swapped into registers
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1818 2013-09-10 22:30:14 <Luke-Jr> cfields: builds and tests, ACK
1819 2013-09-10 22:30:15 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: whenever branching depends on input you can resolve this by making the calculation branch free by computing both answers and using a conditional move.
1820 2013-09-10 22:30:22 Jere_Jones has quit (Client Quit)
1821 2013-09-10 22:30:33 <Luke-Jr> cfields: gmaxwell: replaced that part of my autoconf branch with cfields's version
1822 2013-09-10 22:30:49 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you can always do this .. except where you nest them and you end up with 2^n complexity. :P
1823 2013-09-10 22:32:21 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: the loop exit condition might be tricky
1824 2013-09-10 22:32:57 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you always run the maximum number of times. :P
1825 2013-09-10 22:34:00 <CodeShark> so once you arrive at the result, you swap dummy data into the registers and continue iterating
1826 2013-09-10 22:34:12 <CodeShark> and then swap back at the end
1827 2013-09-10 22:34:18 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1828 2013-09-10 22:34:47 <CodeShark> in any case, exponentiation is probably fast enough for many applications and is FAR simpler :)
1829 2013-09-10 22:34:51 <gmaxwell> yes, you make your loop counters/conditions non-data dependant and use conditional moves to achieve the desired computation.
1830 2013-09-10 22:35:20 <gmaxwell> (you can think of it just as wiring up digital logic.. your conditional moves are muxes)
1831 2013-09-10 22:35:41 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds)
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1833 2013-09-10 22:35:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: there is a safe implementation though
1834 2013-09-10 22:36:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: SCRIPT_VERIFY_EXPERIMENTAL flag at the eval layer, which enables checking through libsecp
1835 2013-09-10 22:36:44 <sipa> and if that fails, retry without the flag
1836 2013-09-10 22:37:11 <gmaxwell> the caching makes implementing that safely midly harder.
1837 2013-09-10 22:37:28 <sipa> hmmz
1838 2013-09-10 22:37:45 <gmaxwell> we could, but we'd lose most of the caching performance gains.
1839 2013-09-10 22:37:57 <cfields> gmaxwell: does that cover it for the pressing build changes? $dayjob is starting to suffer :)
1840 2013-09-10 22:38:00 <gmaxwell> Then again since you're more than 2x faster, it would still be a win (ignoring dos attacks)
1841 2013-09-10 22:38:08 <gmaxwell> cfields: I think so.
1842 2013-09-10 22:38:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: add the experimental flag to the cache condition
1843 2013-09-10 22:39:16 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1845 2013-09-10 22:41:35 <Luke-Jr> oh right
1846 2013-09-10 22:41:36 chrisberkhout has quit (Quit: chrisberkhout)
1847 2013-09-10 22:41:39 <Luke-Jr> that was the problem :|
1848 2013-09-10 22:41:51 <Luke-Jr> cfields: pulltester doesn't like abs_blah
1849 2013-09-10 22:41:58 yano has joined
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1851 2013-09-10 22:45:40 <cfields> Luke-Jr: ah, i know what it is.. pull-tester renames the build folder, so the abs name breaks.
1852 2013-09-10 22:45:48 <cfields> on it
1853 2013-09-10 22:46:08 * Luke-Jr wonders how it worked before
1854 2013-09-10 22:46:53 <cfields> Luke-Jr: paths were relative, so it was just opening data/foo.json
1855 2013-09-10 22:47:08 <Luke-Jr> cfields: relative paths should still work now..
1856 2013-09-10 22:47:47 <cfields> but we've just set them to be absolute...
1857 2013-09-10 22:48:03 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1858 2013-09-10 22:49:13 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1859 2013-09-10 22:49:26 <Luke-Jr> cfields: the tests themselves use relative OR absolute (as defined by make here)
1860 2013-09-10 22:49:34 <Luke-Jr> relative doesn't require make support
1861 2013-09-10 22:49:36 [1]AndyOfiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1862 2013-09-10 22:50:20 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I wonder if it's because test_bitcoin's build path moved
1863 2013-09-10 22:50:25 <cfields> yes
1864 2013-09-10 22:50:34 <cfields> fs::path testFile = fs::current_path() / "test" / "data" / filename;
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1867 2013-09-10 22:50:53 <Luke-Jr> so is pulltester running it from within test/ now?
1868 2013-09-10 22:51:11 <cfields> correct, it's just running 'make check'
1869 2013-09-10 22:51:17 <cfields> which descends into src/test
1870 2013-09-10 22:51:23 <warren> jgarzik: do you want me to rebase your disablewallet PR?
1871 2013-09-10 22:51:36 * warren not entirely sure how to update commits in someone else's PR...
1872 2013-09-10 22:52:18 <cfields> Luke-Jr: quick hack would be to have it check for both
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1878 2013-09-10 22:55:03 <Luke-Jr> cfields: not sure there's a point to checking both
1879 2013-09-10 22:55:24 <Luke-Jr> either someone will be running it from its own directory, or not and we use the abs path
1880 2013-09-10 22:55:26 <jcorgan> anyone see any issue with adding an environment variable check to identify the conf file, in the absence of a cli arg override?
1881 2013-09-10 22:55:35 <cfields> Luke-Jr: well, i've already weighed in with my other PR, imo that's the way to go
1882 2013-09-10 22:55:43 <Luke-Jr> cfields: ?
1883 2013-09-10 22:55:43 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1884 2013-09-10 22:56:12 <cfields> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2985
1885 2013-09-10 22:57:03 random_cat has joined
1886 2013-09-10 22:57:07 <Luke-Jr> that one IMO is something to consider after fixing the problem here
1887 2013-09-10 22:57:32 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1888 2013-09-10 22:57:49 <cfields> sure. and on second thought, i agree. most will be using 'make check', and that one assumes it's in the test/ dir, so the relative path needs to be to data
1889 2013-09-10 22:58:53 johnsoft has joined
1890 2013-09-10 23:00:31 <cfields> testing the fix with local pulltester
1891 2013-09-10 23:01:30 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1892 2013-09-10 23:01:55 CodeShark has quit (Quit: CodeShark)
1893 2013-09-10 23:02:49 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: someone making hundreds of minimum value payments to the address for the genesis block key.
1894 2013-09-10 23:02:56 <cfields> Luke-Jr: verified pull-tester succeeds with https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/89e80718a6918b290eb06992cb67dc788f22921b
1895 2013-09-10 23:03:07 <gmaxwell> and of course I find out about this because a journalist wrote me asking what it was about.
1896 2013-09-10 23:05:13 <warren> gmaxwell: my bad
1897 2013-09-10 23:05:21 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
1898 2013-09-10 23:06:08 <gmaxwell> warren: hm?
1899 2013-09-10 23:06:16 <warren> lame joke again
1900 2013-09-10 23:06:25 <Luke-Jr> cfields: you missed one; added another check as well and added to branch
1901 2013-09-10 23:07:11 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/1e9d3b1392b604fafc6802e4d43469f519d14424
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